for e e e we called over the February 25th meeting of Dayton city council stand for the pledge to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible liberty and justice for all you need a motion and a second the agenda I'll make a motion second second discussion um can I ask a question or that that's the after right yeah okay anybody want to adjust anything move anything on I thought we had I think there was there is one adjustment I forgot to print it off I apologize payment of claims um the front cover page I sent it off to you guys in in an email just from the meeting it was from the previous meeting and I apologize that I didn't get adjusted out but I did send it out to you I will print it out else I thought that was something else that was the only thing that was okay that was needs to be corrected so that will be corrected for the package also online okay uh all those in favor say I I I right all those opposed say no okay agenda is approved now we get on to the consent agenda I a motion in a second I'll make a motion I'll second discussion um I have a question I also set a question you can go first St I'm scrolling sorry my question was on C the approval to change order four for wellhouse 5 just what was the why did we switch from natural gas generator to a diesel generator why did that happen uh Center Point Energy after we had designed and bid the project uh announced that for hopefully I'm getting this right for large demand non-continuous use so basically standby Services would have to pay large tariffs to exist oh okay just as a reserve so and it was it was pretty substantial okay thank you for that clarification can the use this thing's going to get is going to be almost nothing right I me it's going to be the use this thing's going to get hopefully never yeah it's it's not used during any of the staging it's just one I mean it's it's run just to maintain operability but yeah it's not used in any normal circumstances thank you for that clarification anything else that was it for me I have a question there is some EMS supplies for the EMR refresher training are we bringing that inh house or do we normally purchase the the supplies for the refresher mayor and uh councilman Henderson so we are bringing in um the EMR training in housee so we have um prepping for that have a meeting with Dr T this week on Thursday um but that's all been approved by him already so yes we're bringing some of those supplies in so that can be done in l you mentioned I'm sorry what was the name again for Dr Tangy oh okay he's our medical director yes and he's teaching the course no we have people within organization that can teach the course is that so it goes through him that's not accredited through the college right that's just through him no we have to get authorize you the emsrb the Emergency Services regulatory board okay [Applause] I have another question for you um there is a state of Minnesota o Ms on page 30 can you tell us more about what that is it says instructor barel FD instructor it's $100 uh it's just 100 mhm I'd have to get back to you and check on that I don't know exactly off the top of my head without looking at it is it a Visa charge or is it a c or a check charge doesn't say where would I find that yeah I Chief I think it's just a check charge to the state of Minnesota oems I don't know what that stands for oh I'm sorry so that $100 charge is to it's not a check to Payton it was a check to the emsrb so that we can move forward with the uh uh internal um EMR [Applause] training okay that's all I have got more Dave you got um I do uh item D around U Wellhead treatment plant change order 3 um looks like to me we just reopened the whole contract and everybody can put new numbers on it um but one of the things more specifically that I wanted to ask about it it seems to include um remobilizing charges and I thought we had already approved that in change order a 2,500 remobilization charge for the electrician I believe on there that was one of them yeah and that was uh emitted from the original uh remobilizing uh charge that we paid of I think we paid 50 ,000 per um remin and Demoin uh to Magny this is for their subcontractor so that didn't cover anybody else's I think it did some but they this one didn't come the 2,500 for the electrician didn't didn't go on to that one they missed it okay you good no I'm not good but I know I was so it it it looked like it was 250k but it was only 170 to the um that that we'd have to fund does that mean 808 into the reserves or where did those numbers didn't add up for me and I guess I'm just wondering what reserves do we have left um there's a I thought I put something in the staff report about that you might have I think and I'm guessing I think it's um 150,000 something like that of course y $48,900 left of contingency dollars yeah okay Scott you got anything good okay we'll get there hopefully all right uh any more more comments on consent all those in favor say I I all those opposed say no curious 5 to zero on the open Forum open Forum limited to 3 minutes for non-agenda items state your name and address no council action will be taken items will be referred back to staff anybody here for open Forum so I should just have a stamp for you print up your own my hi I'm Keith Grover I live at 113th in Fernbrook and and what I would want to uh talk to you guys about tonight is the is traffic issues on 121 um we had another accident on 13th in Fernbrook again this morning um garbage truck going to the commercial Golf Course back there was making a left turn had to wait because of the excessive traffic going Southbound on Fernbrook this morning the first vehicle behind the garbage truck was paying attention apparently and they stopped but the vehicle behind them apparently did not and slammed into them and both vehicles ended up going away on a a flat bed on the hook looked to me like they're probably both Total but again I'm no expert on that um luckily no one was hurt there was a young lady with a couple little kids in the back seat of the car that got ran into and they all appeared to be okay which was just great um happen when it happens right outside your door and right at the end of your driveway it kind of gets your attention you know it's it's really a scary thing um I'm not sure what we can do about 113th in Fernbrook because we I guess we all know that that's going away right uh in the near future so that'll be an issue that as long as we don't allow left turns there in the near future you know judging from you know the re rearrangement of the roads that you guys have been talking about I guess that would be a non-issue u I would keep that in mind when all that is going on that um that that left turn on to 113th off from Northbound Fernbrook or 121 um either needs to go away completely or something really needs to change with that intersection so that's the first thing the other thing I would like to talk about is the intersection excuse me down at Rush Creek Park Parkway in Fernbrook or elek Road in Fernbrook depending on which side of the of the road you're on um that whole intersection down there is a a bloody Nightmare and one of the things besides the design of it uh one of the things that really makes it dangerous is that when you're coming off from Rush Creek Parkway and you're coming on to go north or south on Fernbrook Lane we have three lanes on Rush Creek Parkway eastbound when you get to that intersection it splits on into a a right theoretically a right turn lane and then a left turn lane but there's no markings on which lane you need to be in to go straight across onto uh El Creek Road and I've had this happen to me many times um you pull up there I know it to be in the left lane which theoretically would be the the same Lane You' turn to go north on ferm Brook on to go straight across and Elm Creek Road cuz that's the lane that lines up with Elm Creek Road people constantly pull into the right hand lane or the right turn lane to go south on on Fernbrook and they will go across the intersection the same time that you do halfway into the middle of the intersection they get over the crown they go oh crap there's no road in front of me and you got two cars trying to slam into one lane um I've talked to to staff about that um last fall I know my son-in-law uh talked to staff about that couple of months before I did about us getting proper lane markings on it so at least people would know that there was one lane that went straight across and one lane that turned right and the one that went straight across would also be the left turn lane to go north on on firm BR Lane but it's it's still not fixed the one we did fix and that's what we need to do to this intersection is what's on 117th in fer Brook all those Lane markings there are the right lane markings we need to take those and duplicate them on Rush Creek Parkway in Fernbrook to make that a more safer intersection I don't know if you can ever make it safe because of the the design but we need to do that and however you know whatever needs to be done to make that happen I guess would be a huge step in the right direction the other thing I want to quickly mention is the speed and the traffic load on Fern Brook Lane you know you you've all driven it you all know what it's like it's very scary to live on that road especially having grown up out there and seeing what it's like now it's really scary but there are I believe 61 exits and accesses or may whatever the right term driveways side streets to get on to 121 from the southern border of Dayton by just south of Rush Creek Parkway to Pine View there are 61 different places for people to pull out of or turn on to between that short I guess what is it like two Mile Stretch or maybe it's a 2 and a/4 Mile Stretch and in that whole stretch most of the road is marked with double line no passing and that's because there's no Sidelines you're going up and down over Hills I think there's only there's only one stretch along that whole Road where it's actually even safe to pass and then I don't think it's safe to pass there because you got so many houses there's a whole housing project along there north of 117 there's probably 25 driveways all within that same stretch where they let them pass so that you anything we can do to you know to help alleviate that I'd hate to see somebody get hurt B out there I've seen so many close calls this intersection at Rush Creek that I was just talking about when you're on El Creek and you want to go south on Fernbrook they got that concrete Island the center that they put at that intersection well does have a sign on there that kind of gives that little knob to you know to go to the right of the sign when you're sitting on IL Creek Road to make that left turn that's like right out here people go out onto the highway to go south on Fernbrook they don't see that sign they head south on Fernbrook and they're in the leftand turn lane for the Northbound traffic that happened so many times my God I was in a car with a friend one time he was bringing me home we're coming down that road and I saw the car sitting in home Creek Road we were chatting right and that and and there was plenty of room for that car to pull out so it wasn't an issue for us but that person pulled out and they went southbound and they went right by us in the northbound lane and that all happened so fast he didn't even realize it until it went by and we're both like oh my God that person was on the wrong side of the road so I I don't know if we can get with the county to fix that put you know a lot of times they'll have signs up there do not enter when you enter you know a like that that's going on the wrong way like they do on the freeways but those are the things that are kind of important to me and I thought I would bring them to your attention so anything that you guys can do you know to help fix that before somebody dies dies exactly just to be blood of all of all times you pick tonight to come this was perfect because the guy that's going to fix all this is right behind it my V for him depends on that thanks Keith anybody else for open Forum anybody online so if you wanted to speak in open Forum if you can use the raise your hand function all right we'll move on to staff consult callil updates back y mayor council couple things for you tonight City day on the hill is next Thursday myself and Council fashion will be attending that event if any else wants to join please let me know so I can sign up Scott okay we got a now any else wants to join let me know um um have scheduled meetings with both of our representatives and the senator as well so again let me know if you want to go that's next Thursday and well Tre plant with approval of the change order tonight is slated to begin here in April or hopefully end of May maybe depending on weather so let's just cross your fingers for the best weather possible so that it's completed on time and date which is January of 2026 that's all I got thank you just one thing update on well for Rehab um the equipment is finally in place they need to put in another 25 ft of pipe um to allow them to do their grout in they will be doing grout in Wednesday and Thursday of this week um it will take two weeks to cure in the hole the drill rig uh the crane will be removed a drill rig will be drill brought in um to drill out the residual grout in the well and then sand will be removed and the well will be test pumped to make sure there's no sand in the remaining water right in the water that's remaining yeah hopefully there's so are we talking about mid March when it's back online um I'm not uh we should be I'm trying to get it done by end of March at the latest because then that will keep us out the way Magny reming onto the well head treatment plant side cool Chief good evening mayor members of council um this Friday Zach will be sending out some information from Echo data our third third party contractor that we utilize for um data analytics for fire calls and response times um I have a dashboard setup for Council to view but what I'm looking for is your feedback on what you would like on it currently it's set up for response time so the median would be the 50 percentile and then the number of calls based on either EMS and um fire calls um it does look a little messy at at the moment but I'm trying to really understand what you are looking for for that data so you have an opportunity to look at it at your leisure um and log in we're looking to get you a log into that as well so if you provide the information back to Zach I'd appreciate it thank you no nothing J any no report from me no NOP no I got nothing no nothing for me I have nothing all right on to presentations hoty all right Keith pay attention let's we're getting contact information we be thank you so much for uh for giving me the opportunity to come and provide an update from henpen County uh I'm Kevin Anderson I think there is yeah there's some information it should be in your packets you can look at it I don't need to remind you of everything that uh about me um I wanted to provide some updates uh last year we came uh my updates to the cities largely focused on um different ways that the county provided services to residents of Dayton um this year I wanted to provide a slightly different kind of update uh in other opportunities that henan County can partner with Dayton to try to make sure that uh we're achieving Mutual goals um we can continue on before I do that I did want to uh quickly address there are some projects that are happening in datton and being planned uh in Dayton uh road projects as the chair of Public Works I still try to keep a very close eye on this um I really appreciate the comments and hearing from residents about different safety concerns all of those safety concerns go to our staff uh who evaluate uh different road conditions and try to make sure that any opportunities for safety improvements get put into our operational plans uh so every opportunity that we have to hear from residents uh is incredibly valuable so I really appreciate hearing that and anytime that you hear from it please send it my way or send it to our Public Works uh staff uh so that they can hear about what uh what concerns are happening we have 2200 Lane miles of of roadway in hanapin County uh and so monitor in each and every one of those across 45 cities as you can imagine uh can be a bit much that's why our Partnerships with cities is so important to make sure that we know what's happening in your community um so here are a few things I know the pavement Rehabilitation on Brockton has actually been rescheduled for uh 2027 uh but uh we are still it's still in our uh in our CIP and we're going to be doing that work um I know that there's a number of other projects happening kind of adjacent and some realignment that's happening uh both from Maple Grove and Champlin that are going to be impacting uh traffic flow and so we're going to keep it a close eye on all of the the work happening both in the community and the surrounding Community to try to make sure that we can address as many needs as we can um moving on so this that that 2027 Rockton is that that's not a a full rebuild that's just like a middle and over there what are you doing there I think that is just a rehabilitation it's not a complete reconstruct okay so um but I can make sure that we get the the details on that project and sent to you yeah I can confirm that was just a m overl project okay thank you um one of the things that I wanted to uh to touch on a big way that the county shows up and partners with cities and we really need cities to part partner with the the county in order to do some of the work that we do is through housing um we have a lot of investment that the county makes in affordable housing and accessible housing to try to make sure that residents uh are able to afford to live in the communities that they uh that they work in that they grew up in um and we know that uh housing costs are just going through the roof it's really hard to build uh Builders are are struggling uh cities are struggling to make sure that uh many cities are struggling to try to make sure that uh housing that is accessible to everybody is available in their communities so one of the ways that we've tried to do this is partnering with cities to provide grants uh cities and developers um now one of the things that we try to look at and try to prioritize uh how we determine these this work is through um our uh disparities reduction so a number of households in in henpen County about a third of the households are housing burdened which means that over uh 30% of their income is going to their housing uh housing costs um they are if the more uh of their income that goes to housing obviously the less they have for food uh for groceries for gas for all the other things that we need to survive and thrive um so the more we can do to try to alleviate housing costs the bigger impact we can have on total well-being um so we try to uh partner and play a role in either subsidizing uh individual living units or the building of uh of uh housing in general in a community so we have a number of housing bonds that we that we authorize uh we do a lot of pass through funding through HUD we'll see if that is able to continue we don't necessarily know uh how much is going to be available to us in the future uh but what we have we try to make sure that we get uh keep flowing into the communities um we know that uh our priorities in the housing Continuum it's not just one area we try to make sure that we are addressing people who are currently experiencing homelessness all the way through affordable home ownership um we want to make sure that we are addressing uh every level of uh a person's experience in henpen County because we know it's not a one- siiz fits-all uh approach it can't be um thank you um we do have a number of rfps that uh open yearly uh for cities I know one of the the rfps has already closed it'll be open up again in December um so as you're evaluating or looking forward in the next year of uh potential opportunities uh feel free to reach out to my office or County staff to uh to explore what other opportunities might exist for your community um as you're going through planning phases I think this is going to be really important especially as uh cities are starting to look really dive into their comprehensive planning process uh and finding ways that the county can be a partner in that planning process we do uh a number of um other work uh in the local affordable housing aid um I think we can I'll let you look through some of the uh the the dense numbers um but in addition to housing we also have a number of other uh grants and funds available uh through uh good stewardship grants which is um recycling grants uh tree um planting grants forestry work uh we have a number of uh of these opportunities that are funded through different sources whether it's through tipping fees um and we try to make sure that those are available and accessible either to cities or uh organizations within your community um we can continue on uh before I uh open it up for questions I did also just want to say uh this last year we did um kind of as it relates to housing uh we took over the assessing uh services for the cities and uh took on that uh that cost uh in its entirety uh mainly because we saw it as an opportunity to like really kind of streamline process uh it didn't make a whole lot of sense you were already Contracting with us they were already our employees uh why keep on shifting money back and forth uh the administrative savings is is worth it to us to try to make sure that that's uh that we're able to provide that value to your community uh so we were happy to make that change and hopefully that was a a help to you in the in the budgeting process for this year um and we look forward to finding other ways that we can partner with and uh support pton in the future do you see that change um continuing oh yeah yeah um in fact there's only um there's nine cities right now that are not part of that uh the larger larger communities uh excluding Plymouth Plymouth is was a part of it um and we don't have any intention of charging you again with it so we were providing those services and we'll continue to provide them so your long-term plan that was that was the bulk of it right does that go up to five years or that that those the CIP yeah yep that's uh so we have a 5-year Capital Improvement plan so uh it is possible to get some some projects in within that Five-Year Plan but it is worth saying like the sooner you can tell us what your plans are the uh the more uh the easier it is for us to like work with alongside you and get them into our long-term planning I just I just think and Keith brought it up but I just think this r r crate thing is going to explode yeah there's so much traffic in the morning and evenings and I will say one of the things that is particularly challenging for for the county and not just Dayton but growing communities in general is we don't have land use decision- making so we don't get to decide um what kind of new housing developments are coming in and like we are kind of the recipient of of those decisions and so as you're making uh a lot of those decisions and some of it isn't you right there's new developments happening in Rogers that traffic flows through right it's happening in Sherburn County it's happening in Wright County uh and we have to respond to it uh and you know the reality is that there's not enough transportation funding dollars to make all the changes as quickly as we would like them to uh which is why we're continually advocating at the state and federal level to uh to find more funding sources for that so and of course any any partnership uh with the cities is always appreciated any questions no I think we um I don't know if you've seen the whole agenda but if you've got the opportunity to stick around for the next couple items I think that'd be great yeah I can stick around for a little bit Yeah so thank you thank you yeah I really appreciate uh seeing you all at uh community events and I will continue to have my coffees with Kevin and uh invite you all to attend as you're able thank you thank you thank you okay on to Care Resource connections hello mayor and Council so I'm Amy with Care Resource connection um we were here last year um to start talk about the pilot with the fire department on the Community Health program um I wanted to just share with the council um the the body of work that we've done uh with this program um this is part of the training that I do with the fire departments and I wanted to share this slide because it's really important for folks to understand why this why not IU um obviously we'll go through here talking about the 911 calls and the community 911 story that we found um while doing this work and how now is the time to create that Community risk reduction plan um with the city and then how all firefighters they want to help they're here to serve their community and in the community health Lane that we're working with legislation on that'll work alongside Public Health excuse me um we want to bring those firefighter voices up to the table and let them know that um we're listening to them we're listening to what each city is saying what each story is telling us with the 911 call data um which is allowing us to move some more um Community Partnerships and state local County Partnerships as we build through this we've all been talking about how the dreaded 2030 the senior tsunami is going to come and I'm here to tell you what's out here if you didn't already know um and we are here in Minnesota North Dakota South Dakota Iowa and Wisconsin so what we started here in the city of St Louis Park has blossomed um into other states where I'm now a Tactical Team lead for mdh and DHS on our 10year blueprint on Aging which the city of Dayton is the the fire department is now part of as well because we talked about this pilot and how each of these communities are going to help us update our state emergency plan because it hasn't been updated since 2015 and it's up to all of us to work with State Fire Marshall Homeland Security to make sure that we're able to have a senior emergency preparedness plan because as we are all learning and I'll talk a little bit more about it the 911 calls are more complex that the the fire department are dealing with and now with this program we've been able to provide them with the tools of how to do that and how to navigate the Community Resources um but when we're talking about the complexity and our um seniors in our community um we also have to look at how and I'll share a couple of Stories We to examine this a little bit deeper but sometimes um no matter how hard we try seniors don't have a place to go whether it's a TCU bed or nursing home bed and they're forced to AG in places it's even worse in rural um but we're seeing this here in the city of Dayton and that's really why we want to talk about um the importance of this program and what the response we've received back from your community next slide so again what's your city Story the 911 calls really fill the pages right these are real um cases that the fire department has has gone out and I think the biggest thing that I want all of you to understand when it comes to this program is the fire departments cannot change the dispatch reason that just stays it gets reported to the State Fire Marshall and that's how that goes so if they're being called in um for a lift assist many times you're going to come into something much more different than a lift assist right and so in these examples we've responded um they've responded to a lift assist it wasn't told to them that the gentleman was lying on the ground in freezing temperatures outside right so there's some work we have to do with hyen County dispatch um that's on a larger level but these types of programs and these types of cases telling the story allows them to have this this information to teach and share as well um you know we've had illness calls where um they have PCA people in the home to help out right and they don't know what to do so they're calling 911 because the the PCA that's provided from the county is in there helping them maybe with just normal you know day-to-day tasks but now all of a sudden they're having a medical event and that PCA is not certified or trained to to deal with that so it it goes back to 911 um and then that's where we go back to the county and say Here's the case here's the story we need to add some additional services and that 911 call referral becomes that um story that allows the the county social worker to add more services around it um difficulty breathing right so we see those come on and that could just be we've seen several of these actually we'll talk about more and I show you the data but um this just are folks that this is their only access to healthcare is by calling 9 um and there there are several stories here in this community where 911 is the these folks only access to healthcare um illness again you know responding to someone who has a terminal illness and having a stroke right um the spouse is so they have complex issues as well they used to be each other's caregivers now they're both declining they don't want to leave their home in Dayton they don't want to leave everything they've worked for and there's a great fear of asking for help and so this program allows us in this community risk reduction response to meet them where they are look and see how we can help them age in place reach out into all of our Community Resources be it the county be at the state be it age-friendly AARP and talk to their doctors and really help them self- advocate for themselves um on how they can remain safe in place um The Falls we hear a lot of about it um this is really where my heart and soul is with Falls and LIF assis because uh uh fall in the home and the person's saying I'm okay um there's a 90% chance that there's going to be another fall um and we want to prevent those those types of things because that second fall could prevent an we could have a serious injury um so that person could be falling they're needing complex care but they're scared because they had already gone to the hospital and they were told that I'm sitting in wheelchair in the Ed for 6 hours and I can't wait that long I came here by myself I'm scared so they want to go home um and then we're having that that cycle again right so the Dizzy the faint the dizzy and fainting the hearts you know um many times are responding to a caller or and or their spouse again that arable to advocate for themselves they just don't know what they don't know um the idea of Care Resource connection when I originally started was because I came from North Memorial I helped create the community Paramedic program in the state with Dr Willcox and so Community Health has always been my passion but the the days of um having that trusted care team having that trusted doctor doctors are retiring new doctors are coming in and they're not taking complex patients and this is a reality and even when we go further out into um Alexandria and up to Morehead and or cross over into West Fargo 70% of these of the rural population does not have a care a primary care doctor they may say I go to this clinic and a doctor will see me or they're filling up the Eds because that's our only access to get some help um and the pain calls you know pain is another one um that I look at as it's kind of like an onion there's something deeper there pain is like an additional Vital sign that we have to really look at differently and a lot of folks that are calling for pain in your community are also including our veterans and um so there's a trust level there there's a trust level of of going to the VA and the VA is way out in Minneapolis and what if I go out there and I don't want to go to an old soldier's home you know they may go to the Ramsay Clinic um and we partner with the Ramsey clinic and I work really closely with Senator abler that has the Haven for hero in inoa and so we always if we have a a veteran that's homeless we try really hard to get them into those spaces um but it's just another piece of the VA is so complex right we had a veteran call the other day um Ramsey PD called and asked for some help and I I had called and they had a family member here in Dayton and so I was able to kind of do a two for one and bring both of them over to the Ramsey clinic and coordinate some of their care because a lot of it is done out in many Apolis but they don't know that there's certain things they can do with the fire and the police reports telling the story it shows like they went to the Ed so um same again we find a lot a lot of illness calls where Home Care nurses are in there and Gary and the crews respond and the home care nurse is calling me Amy I'm dealing with this patient and they need more resources more than we can give be it Al be it Fairview be it all the big ones and small they have all called because they're not built to connect to the community we're all working in silos and so this program has allowed us to break those silos and work across um for their care plan so same again um when our family members out of town you know you there were a few people here that came to Dayton from out of state to care for their loved ones on hospice because they lived alone but they didn't know what they didn't know about hospice and you know we were able to come in and and help them coordinate um some of those additional cares because once you're in paliative care and hospice the you know the opportunities are available to you more than they were for traditional home care and then same with um on the bottom I really wanted to add these because I talk about our elderly I talk about our veterans I talk about those with chronic disease we have a lot of kiddos we have a lot of pediatric calls here and a lot of parents that are looking for some additional education on how to help their kids deal with their chronic diseases um how to deal with seizures how to deal with allergic reactions and they just don't know what they don't know um and it costs a lot to go to an allergist and to a specialist and you could go and bring your child and have all these people talk about what a great plan of care is but it costs money and time and energy to go and do all of these things and people are working and scheduling and specialty clinics don't have urgent cares right um so it's left on to the Ed and and the Urgent Care folks and we also are seeing some um calls here where we are having a um uh an issue with alcoholism and mental health and things of that nature and where are those resources coming from and how are we able to connect these folks all ages um in into these types of spaces um we've that's really where when we're talking about I uh I'm not sure if you're aware I was in Albert Lee this morning doing the same thing with the mayor in the council um but um there is going to be coming out a new response and I didn't put this on the slide I just learned of this this morning that for EMS and fire there's going to be new oosha requirements that it's going to be required for cities to have a community risk reduction plan I always love it when I hear we're 5 years ahead of things um but the work that we put into this pilot is going to help this city and the fire police department and EMS do you know use this as that starting point next one okay here we go ready so all this is 2024 data okay um so this is a breakdown of the types of calls for the city of Dayton and what your 911 date and story looks like um you'll be seeing some different things um Grant with Echo is also works with us at Care Resource connection so you'll be seeing additional layers of this information so this might help you when you're um getting that information back to Zach and Gary um but again um the the largest one is pain remember I told you pain is always telling us a different story um so we have a lot of that we have a lot of breathing problems a lot when I see a breathing problem it's really when we get into the these spaces it's it's not um only because you know they're they're struggling in the moment this has been going on for a long period of time right COPD um asthma allergies um certain different things like that um heart you have a lot of um Hearts here um in in the city of Dayton's and falls right next to it so when everyone ask if anyone asks you what's your top fives you have your pain breathing heart Falls and illness and illness like I said could be anything once they get there um it's kind of depending on what they're able to say to dispatch may be different so just looking at the first part of that graph and put your mind into a position of I'm a firefighter and I'm responding to this type of call your mind is geared going into this type of call okay this person is in pain this person is having breathing problems and like I just shared on the one earlier they're walking in almost to a community member looking at kind of being their care coordinator help me I don't know what I don't know right should I go to the hospital what should I do um and that's a lot of pressure to put on a firefighter um and that's why these these programs are so important to highlight where some of the education some of the training should be and how we can look at this have deeper conversations with Kevin Anderson and you know with the county and have different conversations with like AARP senior linkage line how can we make sure that the access is Equitable for everyone um you know in this pilot um we do not charge any of the citizens for any of the work that we do prior to me coming here there was a call that was um we've been dealing with a resident um back and forth with their care team that started with the home care nurse ended up going to the hospital having different issues and she has been back and forth the last four days back and forth to the hospital because the social worker is unable to find her a TCU bed I was late coming in today because I called every single TCU partner I have in the Metro and I found her one so after this I will be going to her home I will be calling 911 and we will be getting her to the hospital and she will go into a TCU where she can be safe um I will you know those things are we we do behind the scenes um not to this amount I'm always after 911 I'm not normally coming in when this is happening but four times being turned and burned in the Ed is not okay um and so again based off of those number of calls these are the referrals that uh we were given so um I know last year Kevin was here and I was here doing this uh conversation about you know what's happening with the with the community and 20% of the community at that time was on County Services and these these slices here are the um repeat calls these are the referrals that they sent over to us so about 20% of those calls we serviced um and we were able to connect these folks for help the bigger picture there that 66% are those repeat calls that I did not get referrals too because again as a pilot we had training we had different things we had to do but there should have been another um 30% after I reviewed all the data that could have turned into an appropriate referral for these folks to reduce that repeat call who who decides on a referral the P the the caller right so when they go on in um the part of the program is um you know we're here we're responding we have this program with the city of Dayton and the fire department are you open and willing to accept help we can provide your information to this person and they say yes and that's how we move forward um but really you know Community Health is not Public Health it's separate we work both in tandem um but it creates this unique programs based on the city's you know Community Health assessments we come in and we do a deeper dive because I want to understand the story I want to understand where the gaps are I know you have henpen County embedded social workers here which is wonderful um but we have you know some gas stations we have the community center but I think we as we're talking about comprehensive planning really looking at where there's some other resource hubs and and points of places where people can go you know maybe walk or or just have it within their own Community um and so we Bridge those gaps and that's where I talk about how you know it's important for us to work together to create each City specific story cuz your stories different from St Louis Park and from Morehead in North Dakota um but your story is what I share with the elected officials our County Commissioner mdh DHS um on this 10year blueprint on Aging um because we want to be able to work with these programs and just as you guys have to work on your budgets you know we go to the the state and our elected officials and say there's a lot of community- based organizations there's a lot of good people doing good work and everyone has a space but we don't want to ever duplicate the work we want to make sure that these resources are used appropriately and is coming back into the community um and that's where we take all of our um data and we have those conversations with uh State and uh elected officials what questions do you have I have a couple that's okay yeah um so we did a pilot last year when did the pilot start the pilots officially was well it started we signed a contract in July um but we started prepping for the contract in like may I would say we didn't refer anyone until after July correct okay um can you go back to the slide that has that that 60 yes this one so these are repeat calls correct three or more three or more mhm and in that 66% you said how many of those do you believe should have been referred to you 34% more 34% more should have been referred many three or more calls can you quantify the number of calls we're talking about here because we can talk about percentages 347 so of 347 33% more should have been referred could have been referred to you and that's only from July until the end of the year correct that's a lot of reduction correct in this contract for this pilot expires um obviously in July but in the contract I put it out to December because we were dealing with the fire department May having was it fire record management then you guys went to First due so we had a change of of how they were dealing with their with their system so that was the delay and now that they have first do it's so much easier for them to bring the referrals onward we we we're averaging two to three referrals a week right now and Gary roughly 80% of our calls are medical correct yes so we councilman H we have it's what yep okay I got go ahead I was just gonna say one other thing for example for last year we had 111 calls and that was for 24 addresses accounted for 111 of our calls um just those 24 so with the assistance of Care Resources um it's reduced our calls a fair am we're not getting repeat calls back there again um but as Amy said it is a lot of the illness and pain calls and that's where we're picking up where these people are not getting services and some capacity um and then we continue to get called back to them in some for whatever reason again I think today it's two times or three times to the thir third time today for the same address so we're trying to work with that I was on the phone with dispatch earlier tonight and with Amy earlier as well so we can not have that call go out to the organization um if we don't need to so we've been trying to get this particular individual some assistance with that particular person or just in general like an overarching reduction in call volume or are you just saying to that specific address no we're we're seeing a reduction overall I mean if we did not have Care Resources use those 24 addresses um that would be 111 calls um that probably would have been dispatched over at least two or three more times right okay so sorry I'm trying to quantify this because I the math matters right and the savings matter um because we budget for four fire Personnel each call Gary on a truck um I don't really budget specifically numbers I would like to have four on a truck but we don't necessarily have four in a truck I know we don't necessarily four don't necessarily show up but you have a budget number of how many would show up correct three or four it's based on statistics so we're averaging right now probably a little over two about 2.38 is what we're getting from Echo um and so we kind of assume that that's going to kind of be the normal if you will so when we take a look at dollars and then we also have to take a guess at um how many calls we're going to have as well I guess I'm just trying to quantify if you have three or four on a truck and that's what you're saying not you but with our call volume and you're saying if there's three or four that show up on a truck you could quantify the savings from care resources right because you've reduced the amount of calls that we're going to by that 20 whatever per right somewhere in there am I was I math mathing here yeah yeah there's a little bit of napkin math here but I'm just trying to quantify the savings that your the program is bringing to the citizens and the taxpayers by not having the firefighters respond to them reducing overall call volume and their response so if we can just do some generic math right let's just say that you have four firefighters making $30 an hour that are responding on these calls yep right and like Gary said without our program you may go there two three times right yes um so if we were to apply that math to just this scenario with these uh calls that we were talking about that would have been a savings of about $30,000 I think the bigger deal is said the firefighters ain't getting out of bed correct I think there's like there's a dual savings right but I me there's a savings to which I would hope we would have captured in our Budget moving forward which leads me to my next question but there's a savings to the taxpayer and there's also a savings to our firefighters who we continuously talk about being burnt out I can attest to that but we're not calling them out to people who we can't actually make a difference for where Care Resources comes in and is giving the care that they're looking for when they're calling 911 they're looking for somebody to help anybody somebody to be there somebody to help and you're there's a benefit to the citizens just because they're getting the care they need there's a benefit to the taxpayer because we don't have the calls that we're sending the firefighters out to that we're not actually making a difference on other than offering the resources which leads me to my next question and I'm almost done I promise um so we saw this large reduction in calls right that care resources helped us with is this something that we could expect to see like year over year like historically has it been you save a whole lot up in front or we drop call volume a whole lot then the next year it's a couple and the next year it's not a lot at all like do you see it year over-year being this effective we do to the point to where ARP is a now our national partner that believes in our process and our trainings and this program um our average and you can call the cities that we are in our average is a 40% reduction year over year year over year um when we were in St Louis Park I started and their call volume was increasing um um by double digits every year and um by the time they ended up going with a different model so I could move on to you know other cities um their call stayed still um I started there in 2016 and by the time I left their call volume was the same as 2012 where Hopkins and minona and all the other cities around them were increasing by you know double digits 10 15 20% St Louis Parks reduced by those same numbers consistently year after year after year um we're in Hopkins and in Hopkins um can reach out to to the city folks there and in the City of Hopkins we have reduced reduce their repeat call volume to their sites and their nursing homes by 90% and their overall call volume by 40% so I I don't want to lead the witness here but if we're an 80% medical call department and we continue with Care Resource because that's ultimately what you're asking right like I mean down the line here you're asking to continue on with this program and we can continue seeing that same reduction in call volume correct and Now's the Time right um I I look at the city of Dayton as we don't have senior buildings yet and every time the senior building is built you want to anticipate 2 911 calls per year per bed in your community risk reduction plan okay um and so as your community just like Kevin was talking about you know and you're looking at your comprehensive plans um think about how the number of people that are coming into your community and what that response is going to look like and if you already have this program embedded in you know what you're doing this program is is should be part of your community risk reduction where we're having different conversations with you know how can we work closely with your embedded social workers how can we start looking at connecting some of the things that you were already dealing with but just having that additional training and bringing those resources in you know AARP who is our our partner and working in our ageef friendly work with the 10-year blueprint on Aging they have resources that could come into the city of Dayton and monies that they could provide to the city of Dayton to expand those resources and um be able to offer some additional inhome support and and education right um and so I'll be following up with uh Jay and Cathy from AARP because I really want the council and the city staff to understand that these are things that could be here and you just need to have the information to make an informed decision okay I have one last question and then I will stop um in our this isn't a question for you Amy sorry this is me talking out loud um in our budget for 2025 did we account for this reduction was that Savings of not going to these repeat calls in the budget or was it just we have projected to have what ever the number is am of calls and we just budgeted off of that because if we didn't should we be right we should I think we should be maybe that's something we need to revisit I think if if we see a pattern we should be absolutely cuz if you're saying you're doing two you give a number I'm so how many are we doing two to three per week so if we're doing two to three per week and we're I don't know almost two months into this thing that's a lot mhm so I don't know I just I'm just wondering like does that open a bigger discussion of if the call volume is reduced by the 30 what I almost 30 oh 34% 34% and we can see that again this year I would see that as a savings to the taxpayer to maybe not have to pay for something else like an extra set of gear for our firemen because they need that or something else like it should we should be quantifying that and doing something with it or adjusting the budget accordingly does that make sense yeah yeah I think that we you know ultimately what we've seen is growth in call call volume year-over-year and I think you know at the base of it that's what the budget gets built around so you know if this is reducing that growth rate you know then we should be should be accounting for that well by 34% that's not you know that's not a small amount right like that's that's large that's substantial so I I like I'm opening a can of worms here but I feel like there's more discussion there about the monies more discussion about the structure more discussion about where this whole thing goes from here if we continue with care resources does that change the like the trajection of the department does that what does that affect if again we're going to see this year-over-year 34% reduction like that's huge for a department that does 80% medical calls C over Henderson I want to touch Bas so we started in July with Care Resource connections and um we did the we did the budget process starting in May or June okay so we really didn't know what the maybe the savings would be when we did the budget process for 2025 not knowing that okay how many calls are we going to see how many were you know duplicate calls we're going to see how many referrals are actually going to take care resource connections you know we can apply them all day long but they can't can't force them to go corre um I think what we'd look at for 2026 budget process would be are we seeing that same thing this year in 2020 5 actually so that in 2026 when we're budgeting we can look at that as a as a point of um are we seeing actual reduction or not we'd like to say yes I mean that's the idea 100% I I guess and again I'm opening a whole can of worms that's not really what this is meant for but the department is moving in a direction where we're about to spend a substantial amount of money and if we could save that money for the taxpayers like why wouldn't we right and so I think that begs the question of where is the where does Department go if we have this cuz before it was you know again we're we're burnt out we're doing too much what can we do to alleviate that and the Council made a decision Council before me and Sarah made a decision and so I guess I'm just looking at if we could really reduce it by 34% again like do we need or find other ways to reduce call volume correct and I'm I think that a bigger discussion needs to be had and I'm sorry for the knee jerk back and forth but again this is probably not the best time to bring this up but I feel like there's another conversation in there given what we know now and that doesn't really help because we just broke around in a kitchen but we can still use a kitchen I'm and again I'm not trying to open up a big can of worms here I'm just saying that I would like to revisit where if we're utilizing our resources effectively um and it's working and it's actually doing what Emergency Services is supposed to do right that's the whole point is to help the residents the whole point is the service to them I I believe that's at least I believe I put something in the in the goals to to look at that I I saw a couple of them so I when we revisit that it would just it doesn't mean it's not going to happen doesn't mean I'm for or against anything I would just like to honestly look at the yeah the number of calls and the numbers matter the data matters um can you go to the slide where you break down the the calls oh yeah I guess yeah so I noticed what I don't see on here and I have a feeling it's a big chunk is anxiety yep um because every one of those things can start as anxiety PTSD and I kind of Wonder do you do you do you have those resources to deal with that I mean maybe it's more associated with the VA but yep we do we do yep and that that's you know it can be hard to determine but it just yeah you know and it's really it's one of those things um we with the embedded social worker that you have from hennipin County their um main purpose truly is to deal with those mental health types of calls um and so out of respect we you know we would defer it over to there because those resources you already have in place and we don't want to duplicate services that you're you know investing in um but you are correct every single one of these does have a mental health component to it and so when we get a call um and we're working with the case um you know the the crews will go out they'll offer the program are you open and willing to accept help they say yes they send the referral over to us and then we reach out to that person and we come out to their home or we speak to them over the phone get their um understand where their social terms of health are who their supports are if they have somebody and then we take all the information that they share with us and we give that to their doctor and we tell their doctor we just have done a visit with your patient this is what your patient is asking for and we have a list of things that they would like their doctor to help them with um and then they sign the referral form and that becomes part of their medical record um because our doctor Dr Willcox our medical director um uh is with me still at Care Resource connection and this is what we do in rural Health um and so we bring those folks to them and like I said if they don't have a provider we will find them one um and working with North Memorial who is your um ambulance provider because I came from North I know they have Community paramedics I know some different things we can pull into place but they're able to deal with we start with their care team and then we kind of build these you know circles around them because we know that if they are going to go to henpen County and see what services that can take some time because they have to go through their finances they have to figure out what they could qualify for they may need somebody to come out and do a visit um so we just want to make sure that they're not going through this roller coaster and constantly every you know 20 or 15 days calling 911 again and we just want to make sure that they're supported and they have those checkpoints because we stay with these folks for 120 days it's not just a one and done so we're checking in in 30 days we're checking in at 60 90 120 and we're doing the mental health phq9 if they have asthma we're doing those acts and the gads if they have anxiety and we provide that information to their providers any more questions well thank you thank you thank you Amy okay three Ro spark District good evening mayor members of the council hi my name is Jennifer douret I am free Rivers Park commissioner for this area I've been the commissioner for quite some time I represent Maple Grove Brooklyn Park oio Dayton which is my favorite swn don't tell anyone else andamp and I just wanted to say hi and um and I hope uh over this next year to visit with each and every one of you to talk about our Park District any concerns you have or anything that I that I can do to help or I think our relationship uh with Three Rivers Park District in the city of Dayton has been longstanding and I hope um that we can be of service to you in any way to keep both of our organizations strong and our partnership um very wellmaintained throughout the year so if anything else I will turn it over to our amazing staff who knows everything and if there's anything I can do at any point in time please reach out or or if there's any questions um after her presentation U please let me know and I'll be happy to answer those as well thank you good evening hi I'm Kelly griman I'm the director of planning with Three Rivers Park District it's nice to be back in the city of Dayton and uh welcome to the new council members this is my first time in front of you uh I just want to pause and also introduced our superintendent Bo Carlson and then principal planner and Rex seen so we are all available to answer questions after my presentation and the the purpose today is really just to share information and the work that Three Rivers is doing on the west Mississippi River Regional Trail there's been a lot of Acquisitions happening in the recent past that's certainly caught us off guard I think it it's probably uh sparked some interest by the council so this is just another good opportunity for us to connect and make sure we're going in the same direction and and answer any questions that you have so with that I'm going to jump right in so we have four different Regional trails that are planned within the city of Dayton and this is the same slide that I presented in July uh but just for kind of setting up the context we have the West Mississippi River Regional Trail the Diamond Lake River the Diamond Lake Regional Trail excuse me the medicine Lake Regional Trail as well as the Rush Creek Regional Trail and today we're going to be talking specifically about the west miss Missippi River Regional Trail which when it's all said and done makes up six of the planned 18 miles within the city of Dayton and that mileage does not include the Regional Trail miles through Elm Creek Park Reserve so what this Trail Corridor is really where it's started from or what it's a a composition of is a whole lot of different layers of plans all the way from the federal level down to the city of Dayton's comprehensive plan and when we sorted through all of those plans what we realized is that there's two kind of common them themes happening on this River CT or a desire to protect and restore the natural resources and a desire to have some type of multi-use off-road Trail Corridor and that's really the role of Three Rivers Park District so I'm not going to read through this whole list of everything but um maybe for the sake of the audience and anyone that might be listening at home this Corridor is part of the Minnesota National River Recreation Area that's overseen by the National Park Service so while it's not a national park it is a unit of the National Park Service it's also part of the Mississippi River critical Corridor area that's overseen by the DNR and there's all kinds of rules and regulations about setbacks and building Heights and land uses that's all outlined in your comprehensive plan and that's the diagram that's shown on this particular slide uh it's also part of the Mississippi River Trail Corridor that overseen or kind of envisioned by mind do as well as the National Park Service and the list continues and so we are truly just one piece of a a broader complex pie so the the vision of the River or the West Mississippi River Regional Trail is really that it's a high quality destination multi-use trail that provides the best user experience reasonably feasible within your community we have Trails across pipin County of all different shapes and sizes and all different Community types and what we know is that trails that are along County Roads and they're right you know right on that road shoulder are enjoyed and used very differently than trails that are off-road and have connections to Natural Resources connect to local parks connect to Regional Parks our vision for the city of Dayton is really wherever There's an opportunity to do it is to have a more natural resource focused Corridor that really becomes uh an important Community Asset and something that the community can be proud and that your residents are excited to be to use and it connects them to Elm Creek Park Reserve it connects them to the river and just to make sure that that River Corridor is available for all of Dayton residents to be able to use enjoy an experience so this map shows the trail Corridor that is in the long range plan for the Regional Trail at which was previously adopted by the city of Dayton and what I want to really call attention to is the letters A and B on this map and it goes from the Gooden Park area to roughly North Diamond Lake Road and this is the area that you've probably seen or heard about a lot of Three Rivers Acquisitions this River Corridor probably pres that this portion of the river Corridor provides the greatest opportunity to pull the the trail off the road shoulder and have it be an independent Corridor now I want to just pause and say that's a about a 3 and 1 Half Mile Stretch of the river and we can accomplish the trail by acquiring you know different pieces of land where there's an opportunity to do so and we can also accomplish it if some of that land remains in private ownership so Three Rivers is we only move forward on a willing seller bases and it's perfectly reasonable and acceptable to Envision and to plan for a trail that kind of goes back and forth along the road shoulder for a section then it pulls off where there's Park land either land that we own or land that the city owns or that the DNR owns and then maybe goes back and forth on the road shoulder it doesn't have to be an all for one approach definitely like a hybrid is probably the right solution for this community when will we see that plan well that plan would be consist or would be subject to who's a willing seller and when the trail is developed so because we are not talking about condemnation or endent domain at all and only willing sellers it really just depends on who that lives on this cour or is interested in selling and when they're interested in selling and the trail will be built when the trail will be built most likely in phases and I'm if I can Circle back to that I have a slide on the end all right is that and if I don't address it would you remind me and I'll make sure to pause I will yes thank you so we're currently in the acquisition phase like I said we're willing seller only we really haven't gone and done mailings or posters it's been Word of Mouth uh some council members have even stirred community members to reach out to Three Rivers Park District and then in the future once we have more land assembled then we would start looking at how do we build different sections uh at least in a in a perfect world that would be how we would move forward we do know that there's a County Road Project happening in the next 5 to seven years and we do anticipate being a partner that project in some capacity so this is the that stretch that A to B so again from the good and Park area down to North Diamond Lake Road and this map I I understand it's hard to read at this scale but there's three different colors the dark blue is land that's already owned in public or it's already in public ownership so all this kind of whole area that's about 330 Acres over 250 acres is already in public ownership and that's why it's interesting for Three Rivers who is a natural resource based Park agency to kind of be paying attention and say well there's something that we can really build off of here and really create that Community Asset that's the dark blue color and then there's the blue or the excuse me the the green light green color that's all land that's privately held and then there's color that's a light blue and those are Parcels that Three Rivers is currently working with those property owners in some capacity to acquire their land um some of that may happen some of that might not happen but for the sake of transparency we put it on the slide today so that everyone is on the same page um there's one more color on here and it's a kind of a magenta SL hatch pattern and those are areas that we've identified where because of the topography because of the ditch because of the road RightWay some type of special Trail condition con special Trail construction is likely or some type of easement so if we were only to be looking at Acquisitions or Partnerships or easements those are the areas that are really fundamental to make the Regional Trail aspect worked and there are 20 Parcels highlighted and of those 20 there are 12 that are currently still in private ownership here's kind of a zoom in at least on a portion of that and these are the three different Parcels that Three Rivers is in some state of acquisition or acquisition exploration so parcel a we hope to close in next month parcel B we are just doing the appraisal parcel C we hope to close in April of this year and that is the next item on your agenda for today and while I'm on this slide I want to just share that um it's really important for Three Rivers to be good stewards of the land that we own so we will be already on the the dark blue Parcels where we own reforesting and doing some other restoration efforts starting this summer you've probably already seen that on the parcel adjacent to Gooden Park we've oh we've spited in a lot of trees but that same kind of work is going to happen on all of the parcels that we own and we also are interested in working with the city on that good and park node to realize the uh City's water Trail plan so this is a graphic from henpen County and this talks about their Road reconstruction and Rehab projects and why I've included that today is you know doing the trail all at once is a pretty ambitious project and maybe that's the appropriate direction that we go or maybe we look at a more phased approach the portions shown on this slide that is the red dash line that would go you know roughly from the city of Champlain all the way to like LC Stevens Park is probably the most important Corridor for us to focus our efforts and to partner with the county to construct in this first phase that's where you are already have a lot of homes built so great population um you've done a ton of investment in the LC Stevens and the clo Overlook Park already so to be able to connect residents to that in a safe manner is I think a high priority for both three rivers and the city so at the end of the day when we when we think about when is this going to be done and how do we want to do this this red dash line I think is our first phase of working together to get it done and doing it in partnership with the county in the road reconstruction or rehab projects and mo the majority of this or excuse me all of this land is there's already right a way to do it um and it doesn't overlap the piece we just talked about significantly and where there is overlap the city actually already owns a small outlot between the road right away and whatever private um Parcels are there so if you can imagine from okay Overlook all the way down to North Diamond Lake Road there's just this small little outloud or sliver of land that the city owns that would more um that would work for the trail Corridor so we don't need any additional acquisition or we're not foreseeing additional acquisition needs to do this red um piece of the corridor so that would be where uh I would en encourage discussions for moving forward in the in the shorter time frame the rest of it I think Could Happen whenever three rivers in theity and the county is ready to have that conversation and perhaps when additional acquisition um has occurred this is that good and park node and the Mississippi River water Trail so the city in 2021 adopted a water Trail plan and did some concept plans on four different spots or at least there's a concept plan for the Gooden Park area and this is actually on land that Three Rivers Park District owns so one of the things we would like to do is look at all of the land that we own and work with the city to see about what's the appropriate Recreation offering or how we could work together to open up that public land and uh with the council's blessing and I'm just kind of looking for a head noot today we'd like to actually apply for an lccmr Grant to help the city realize the water Trail project that's um envisioned for the good and Park area but on land that's actually owned by Three Rivers Park District so we would be looking at doing the non-motorized boat launch uh some preliminary parking and a paav trail to get to the boat launch in a little staging area some of the other elements of this plan could come at a later date um and this would be requesting a $500,000 lccr Grant utilizing the 200 to 250,000 the city already has from I believe it was Congressional designated spending that's left over from the LC Stevens project and then $50,000 from Three Rivers plus the use of the land and with that I will stand for any questions so you mentioned that willing Sellers and obviously but at a certain point you just have to build it you can't just wait so like is there a certain is it when the when the road gets built or is there like a certain percentage of properties like once we hit this percent then we're going to build it no matter what what how do you know when that moment comes uh that's a great question and I don't know when that moment comes but I think it's a it's a conversation between all the different parties maybe it's hey you guys are developing even more you have enough people that are going to use it it make sense for us to prioritize getting that piece done and that's where that go back this red line to me makes the most sense but it's just a line on a map we haven't had any formal conversations with City staff or the county of hey this is where we should really be focusing our efforts but this would serve it's would give you the biggest bang for your buck at least initially or our buck initially we're not asking the city to pay for the Regional Trail that's Three Rivers expense is that just alongside I notice that's on the south side of their old hway graphic it's only a graphic so it's readable would you prefer it to be along the actual Mississippi not in this quarter it really follows Dayton River Road for the whole thing but between North Diamond Lake Road in the Gooden Park area the road is very close close to the river there's about one parcel um between the river and the road and that's where there's the greatest opportunity to connect people to the river but again we don't need to acquire all of that to make the trail Vision work now some of the parcels that you that three rers owns currently has houses on it like what are you do like good question are you tearing them down are you renting them out are you going to try to break those Parcels apart yep so the all the parcels we've already acquired we have removed the homes and the parcels that we are currently actively requiring we are working on all different options and one of them is to move the houses to other Parcels or to put them up for bid and allow people to bid on them and then they can coordinate the move on their their own um demoing the houses and you know just full Decon is or deconstruction is always an option and then we're also going to be working with your fire department to do some practice Burns okay be great considering we're constantly getting hammered that we don't have affordable housing and we need more housing it just seems a little wasteful y to destroy perfectly good homes it's absolutely something that we've been talking about and are trying to come up with some solutions with actually the city as a partner in in some instances you sure well I'm going to limit my cont comments to things that I feel like are concerns for the the city obviously full disclosure I live on this road and so there are concerns that residents have um that I think are in part in the way that the message is being delivered to potential sellers I know you're the tagline is willing sellers only that's not the impression that the people in the neighborhood are getting all right so there's miscommunication there at at best um it also you point in our resolution which will be coming up next uh to a resolution that was passed by the city in support of this Trail in 2016 there are there is language in there that is not being followed at all um it talks about this uh plan lining up with the city's uh comprehensive plan and other plans if you look at our comprehensive plan it does not show Parkland from LC Stevens to the Old Village it doesn't um it doesn't show that in the zoning plan either so we're not in alignment here and um for this group I want to say I don't in my time here we've never had a conversation about are we willing to give up an entire neighborhood for a a bike trail I think that's important I also think that where it says to in this resolution um the city of datton intends to enter into a Regional Trail Cooperative agreement with the park district formally outlining the acquisition design implementation and operating responsibilities for the West Mississippi River Trail we're not doing any of those things we get updates from you a couple of times a year but where are we in in this planning role where are we um discussing Acquisitions other than after they've essentially already happened May I respond yes yeah great thank you um we actually have a Cooperative agreement already in place with the city of Dayton and we've we we've had to amend it several times as we worked together in Partnership to get the Trail built through Elie Stevens uh park over the last couple years uh I think it's perfectly acceptable and perfectly appropriate to further revise the resolution to best meet the needs of the city uh and I think you could probably still do that this evening and one of the reasons why I'm here today is to to talk more through how we want to work together and what how our Visions align or don't align in what changes you would like to see moving forward so that we are uh staying in line with the city and and are really approaching this as a partnership I think that would be great I don't think that we're anywhere near that today uh nobody knows what the plan is because the plan that's described in the in the document relating to this Trail is is vague at best around uh property acquisition and so there there isn't a plan that we can see that describes which properties are in which properties aren't necessary and we're far enough down this trail that that should exist and we shouldn't we should know about it we should see it anybody that wants to see it should be able to go on your website and see exactly what what the future vision is for their their property are they on The Hit List are they is it doesn't matter and so on and I think we've got a lot of concern in my neighborhood over what what this is and I certainly can't give any answers to this kind of stuff because I don't know either the uh we don't know where the uh the county is at on the road redesign I think this all plays together but we're not at that table either yeah thank you I will say the long range plan is vague you're absolutely right uh it does create an opportunity for us to revisit and amend the plan to better align with the city's needs and to provide that additional detail and we're U very open and supportive to doing that in the long range plan it does include in the appendix all of the the properties where we know we will need easements or where special construction consideration is is needed and as well as language about the importance of connecting to the river and acquiring property where there's an opportunity to do that but I can absolutely appreciate uh having more transparency and working collaboratively to make that we're both on the same page both agencies I think we need to get there um yeah and as it relates to easements because not all of these properties are necessary or even necessarily desirable for for this Trail and so I think you know honing that down to what is the plan where do you need an easement where do you need nothing where do you really have to have that property and make this thing go I think that that needs to be out there I think that needs to be clear to everybody yep and I think some of that will come as design happens and you go and you do all the survey work and you better understand where exactly will the trail go or where can't it go where are your design limitations your topography limitations your drainage limitations the the level of planning we do in a longrange plan is very similar to a comprehensive plan where you're really outlining a concept or a vision and we don't yet have that detail hopefully in partnership with the county we'll be able to do some of that for portions of the trail I I can't speak for the county as to whether there's an openness to do the trail design for the whole thing but it also will really just come down to what property owners are interested in selling to Three Rivers and which ones are not and if there's an interest in selling that gives us that opportunity to locate the trail in a different spot right than if they're not interested in selling and that's where you can start to think about the trail as more of that hybrid where sometimes it's along the road and sometimes it gets pulled off but we won't know where we can pull it off until we know who's a willing seller and um most people don't necessarily know they're going to be a willing seller in three years or five years or eight years um there their life situation changes and and we never know who's going to call and when they're going to call yeah well and I think the Dynamics change without a without a plan being in place and that's the part I'm trying to emphasize here y because if you buy property on one side of someone's house and then buy property on the other side where do you know where do they think that leaves them they may not have thought that way 5 years ago and now the the story has changed because they're they're on an island and with the you know sort of uh random acquisition of properties along this road that's that's going to continue to happen if this keeps going the way it is yeah you you bring up a great point it does change the neighborhood D dynamic and with the Willing seller approach um that's that's definitely what we're finding oursel is you have a a piece of property here because those property owners were interested in selling to Three Rivers and then maybe you have a another property owner that's not interested in selling or not interested in selling at this time and then maybe three Parcels over it's another property owner that is sold to Three Rivers so in that state of change it does feel a little bit hey like what's happening it's popcorn is I I guess would be the best way of saying it uh but sitting down with City staff or with the council and better understanding what's what are your Visions or how might we accomplish this together or where does it make sense to do additional acquisition where does it make sense to keep it like the single family homes that are consistent with all the other plans we're certainly happy to do that well that would also lead to don't destroy houses yet I mean cuz if you get this lot and you tear the house down but you can't get the lot on either side of it now you've have this single Standalone knot you rip down a perfectly fine house um and it would make more sense maybe to actually leave the house on it resell it and acquire a continu like a what's the word I'm looking for continu well just a a string of like a string of property because it also I what you're saying about pulling the trail in and out but you don't want to go in and out every other property you would like to have several in a row where you can get down by the river and then come back out so it also kind of seems a little silly um to not necessarily just to buy it but like to tear the house down without having at least the property on either side maybe once you got three in a row or a certain acreage in a row then I can see it making sense but until you get to that point if you want to buy it and hold it and hope for sure um but yeah we're constantly getting pressure for affordable houses and a lot of times it's are older houses that are the affordable options and they're the ones you're tearing down so it's like thank you for tearing down the cheap house so that we're left just more expensive houses and I appreciate the land itself is valuable it's on a like it's on the river the land is is has a value there um which is why my other thought is is there a way we could split it so maybe in maybe make it a smaller parcel and leave that smaller potentially more affordable home particularly if you can separate it from the river a little bit and get your Trail closer to the river um if there's any way we can do that and preserve our older more affordable homes um in a I just and then like I said it also leaves you guys so you're not with the onesie two like this onesie onesie onesie thing which is silly I think those are all great points the one thing I want to address is that uh a lot of our acquisition funding comes from the Metropolitan Council and they have strings attached as to how we can use the property and we are not allowed to lease the property or rent it so uh I can appreciate the comment about how do we figure out the affordable housing and the rental stuff I think that's where um selling the houses and moving them to other property that's local might be an option as well as the creative solution on hey can we subdivide and maybe create smaller Parcels Parcels that makes it more affordable I think that would also alleviate some concerns that at least I have I just see you guys buying up all of our River property and yeah I so if we can somehow get a trail there and not lose that property um I definitely want to explore that to some extent and it's one thing to have patches like LC Stevens like having nice patches is absolutely but then like leave some chunks alone yeah I love I love the park right but like our City's already more Park than like any other city so we do need someone to pay the taxes um we have anybody in the audience that has any questions for Three Rivers yeah come on up just y name name and address and Spiel Crystal Fant uh 16860 Dayton River Road um really my question is simple and it's when I called The Three Rivers Park commissioner um didn't get an email back twice um did talk to the superintendent who was very kind and helpful and the one thing that I asked for was a community meeting so that us neighbors can be under the same understanding as what you're doing here it's really difficult to sit in the audience and and listen to your home and everything you've poured into it be talked about as a as a parcel um I absolutely agree about tearing down homes um that's also on my list but I'm very disappointed that I'm not hearing a community meeting being discussed and that's what I'd like to ask for please thank you thank you anybody else okay anybody else have any questions all right well thank you thank you so much all right on to item [Music] H just do an item eight he members of council yeah so in front of you tonight's a resolution for support of the land acquisition for by through par District the presentation was given before so you could ask any questions you may have I don't know if we I don't think we put any slide together yeah there you go quickly and just a support so you have any questions please staff is sitting here for um I do have a question on that oh where so it sorry in my packet it refers to the 2016 resolution yes where can I find that was that attached it was not yeah requested thank you cuz I just realized I I assumed it was there and I couldn't find it okay thank you I will need a minute to read this so we can go on other questions I think it was referenced a couple times during CP fashion questions from through Park District related to um planning and and some of the conversation that need to be had and in general like those are the highlights I had the resolution that was passed in 2016 and apologize I wasn't trying to hide that from anybody we've passed I think it was one of the land acquisition support but I think it was the end of last year maybe so before this Council was able to see it can I ask just like an overarching question no just spew it out I'm sorry um can we have a discussion about what the like if this was passed in 2016 that's a long time ago a lot has changed theoretically in that time frame um can we have what do you is that an open house like how I guess it depends on who you want to be able to talk but it's not me it's no not you that's not what I sorry um can we have a open discussion about what the trail looks like about what you know Three Rivers wants to do cuz again like I I get four Trails trails are great but if we have no idea really and if this 2016 that's a long time ago um no idea what they're thinking what they're planning and I'm trying to look at their Maps like this big um yeah we could just have staff coordinate a meeting with rivers and get it on the agenda at some point and that would give those living in the neighborhood the opportunity to also come in and have a same in a discussion cuz ultimately that's what you know obviously at the city level matters but yep again you're talking about somebody's home as a I don't think it was meant that way it wasn't but I mean if it affects you and it could affect you or you're like hey absolutely not never ever you know like that would probably be good for them to know and I guess it would be good for us to have an updated Vision on what they're thinking what we're thinking yes and the other thing is is this item specifically we do have to approv this I know so that yes it would be good to to have have an idea what's going on the city staff is happy to set up a meeting whether that's a work session or if it's a separate day is fine too but um I'll kind of look for I would love to have the Parks Commission at whatever this is that's a great idea if we have a work session and again this is just lack of knowledge would obviously David your home is part of it so you would tell your neighbors but those affected by the trail would be they would get a letter they would get some sort of Correspondence how would they all know that they should show up and voice their opinion yeah we could make it could be a public hearing notice based on the work session and and whatever else you wanted to make it um there would be no action physically taken at a work session just because that's not allowed correct but then we'd have a separate action item that during that meeting if that's what we wanted to do if we wanted to hold it on a separate day in total we can most certainly do that as a as a special meeting um and then we just host a public hearing there if you wanted to have public in input on that okay yeah I just want to make sure everybody gets the opportunity to talk about it and to again it's really up to the individual parcel owners or home owners what they think and what they feel about you know how this is moving forward and their opinion matters and you know like I don't want to home on the stretch and I'm sure you have a strong opinion because you do but I like everyone to be able to say what they need to and to be part of the plan if you will no I think that's that would be really important to do and I yep that's what Crystal was just asking about I hear youor yeah no that's yeah that's great I also think we as a council need to have a discussion about what we see the future future of this stretch being um whether well are we okay with all of all of those homes disappearing at some point right and um you know well we need to have that discussion and we haven't I mean 2016's a long time ago because it has well that that too but yeah that too um but I think that with the current situation you know we the the vision has has changed in my view by Three Rivers from a trail along the road to a trail going to the river um and I think that uh We've not had that discussion about losing that that Revenue I think Sarah's point about affordable houses these are not these are not all Mansions along this stretch of road these are fairly affordable houses in Dayton uh for the most part and uh you know is are we okay with that and I think we need to have that discussion all right so that good great direct Chase I need a need a motion need a motion a second so I can just say that I personally would be okay saying yes to this particular one cuz this was clearly a willing seller and all that but I personally wouldn't vote Yes on another one without having like I want this before we have another one if that makes sense I think that's to yeah I'll just say yes to this one but then something else has to happen before any others come forward I agree with you sir I think we're too far down on the trail to make this the okay Corral or whatever you want to call it but and this particularly for the seller because the seller probably has plans not anticipating us coming in and being like no so no I don't think that's I have no interest in in trying to block this one but I also have no interest in looking at looking at another one until we've got a lot more information I agree I agree so I'll make a motion to approve I'll second it okay any more discussion those in favor say I I po say no motion carries 5 to zero okay we are on to item I DCM Farms revised site plan I'm not even half over I'm r not a bad we're only 50 minutes behind schedule you need a charer we lose time on can you get there it's harder to get down there but we only have an hour schedule for well we already used uh 50 of that hour so you have 8 minutes remaining responsibility I'm sorry uh so this is am referred to this as an informal review of DCM Farms or progress report essentially um where the project can we shut that door I don't want to kick them all out butut it when can we kick them all out it's parking lot party now where we're at with the process so uh the planing commission has tabled it or is continuing the public hearing from their this February from February to March 6 um and so in between that time there it's um it can't or the council cannot take action on until the plan commission provides a recommendation um so this is more of a status report of what's changed in the last few weeks or so uh we do have a revised plan since the plan commission has reviewed it so that this is all new that that the public has not seen uh the map on the left is the plan as of January 7th and the plan on the right is February February 21st um the developer has essentially took a lot of the comments that the plan commission had um and try to incorporate Incorporated it into revisions um and the major changes are included in the staff report find what page this is on quickly um but in the the short explanation is um I'm going to refer to it's just skinny Lots the number of skinny Lots has been reduced quite significantly uh so for example in the 40ft Lots those have been reduced from 123 lots to 68 103 not 123 thank you um 103 to what I'm sorry I to 68 thank you uh sidey yards were changed so the uh January plan had 5ot side yard setbacks that's been increased to 7 and A2 F feet um and the total number of lots has reduced from 266 down to 253 um major changes on the plane itself uh probably the biggest change I mean other than the the lot sizes is this culdesac has been continued as a through Street and what that does is it re it eliminates this intersection um there's still uh small town home lots in the northeast corner although the street has been widen to uh to be uh to comply with public uh as a public road standards so but otherwise we we've got the whole hour or so uh to try to answer any questions or to hear what the council's comments are yeah just want to just not the council mayor and Council that this item cannot be approved or whatever this is just for more discussion so we can give the developer more feedback um you can expect this formal feedback and formal information to come in March just enough way the the 3.1 per acre that's just to the southern section is that what that uh the three units are 3.09 units in acre is for the whole project oh uh the 3.78 units per Acres specific to the northeast corner now does that take out the um various holding ponds no and but when we actually get to do from that Council we get to take those we don't that counts as developable areas same thing with streets okay what do we get to take out that oh streets count too uh except for Arial roads but like local streets count local streets so um land that's publicly protected so for example the North West Corner includes Parkland that that is netted out it does not count okay we get to remove very little is the answer right yeah so like with this project there uh there's one very small Wetland that uh does not meet the Dom Minimus so in other projects we have Wetlands that are taken out but in this case there there really aren't any to preserve John what is our um let see how do I word this what is our requirement for regular Frontage for the R3 District so this is the comparison this is being done as a PUD R3 District it it's 62 ft wide so 30 and it does allow the R3 District does allow 30% of the lots to be less than 62 ft but the average is 62 yeah yes and that's measured at the street or at the house set back oh setback and what's the average here 54 for the entire development believe it's before yeah Tom you can come [Applause] up um so probably one thing before we talk a lot average is the one other thing we did oh Tom you pull the microphone closer can I your name and address yeah it's uh Tom Dean 11261 fir Brook Lane D thank you um so probably just the last on the lot sizes we did end up adding 16 65t wide Lots um that really didn't talk about you know they're just the 50s and um but I had uh today um the engineer ran all the setbacks and all 253 Lots the average just on the whole is 60.3 ft per lot okay yeah my math is at the right at the front that was the right way and I just had him go and take uh take do the math off the set back yeah set back and figured they out everything electronically but you're saying the whole thing is just right at 60 yeah and I um it was late in the day but I did send to staff a whole Report with every lot every footage a long spro yeah seven of them seven seven pages I think so here's where I struggle with this whole thing me me personally I I don't like the 7 and2 foot setbacks um quite some time ago we went to 10 this whole development is going to be 7 and A2 um this whole development is under the 62 it's 100% under it all the way across I I to me if we can get rid of the the 40 the 40 foot Lots really hurt this whole development in my in my opinion um I just can't I don't want to build them that tight that's me personally and and I think I got to say I'm really and I'm good I'd like to really get good feedback I think the last time the times you know the Planning Commission gave some but I thought probably and there's some new members here that you know I I think what we're looking for and I wouldn't say it was total disagreement is looking just for different housing product in the city and and I think where the the 40s are at is an is an alley load so instead of taking a town home putting four houses together then they usually sit backing up to major road which would be Fernbrook which we have some on the on the Sundance scens is now we'll have front you know in the streetcape of that street is tremendous different um everything is LP so when you do LP it just allows more color variation you know most you know most vinyls that are used are based on to about five to eight colors because they're lighter colors and they fade right if you use a darker color where you don't have that in the lp so I think that was my purpose of of doing that and if you look a couple areas we did did change to make exact is initially so these are still 40 and they were this didn't change they were initially 7 1/2t setbacks around the edge before we had 40s and these are all 45s we had the house back in here Brads we remove that so that's why we actually get although we added 45s we do get uh two more Lots in that area for down here was reduced 16 um and and then if we here these were 50 and 55s these are all 55s these are 50 55s they're all 65s these here were um 40 45s they're now all 50 minimum but sometimes it just doesn't work out so that's where you may see footage we'll have 55s maybe a few bigger ones these were a mixture of Villas at 50 55 they all went to 55 and then this is 65 75 65 those were the the original ones and then if we went just on the south side in the Sundance green on 113th if it give you an idea that density including the town homes is 2.7 Acres so this is a little denser at uh at you know it's about three if you went just to the north side of 113th it's the piece up you know along the road that uh that changed quite a bit so if you look the other thing then um when we Sunday on screens these Lots here these got a little wider here in the back but these in here are 50 foot wide currently with a 7 and 1/2t setback the reason I bring that up is just if you were to look at at a house and just kind of see what was built um the furthest East Street is Glacier and currently there's two that have just come up for sale in the last month one's just shy of 521 th000 the other one's 639 so um you know 50 foot wide Lots yeah he I I want it a couple times I didn't realize that I personally don't mind I I like that there are a variety of product as they say um not everyone wants a giant house and a giant yard to take care of um but we like I speak for myself which I know is Extreme because now I have 18 acres and a lot of land but before that I lived in a town home and I loved everything about it I didn't have to do any of the snow removal I didn't have to do any of the lawn care I just and but I owned my own house right like I had the right to do what I wanted in the inside if I wanted to remodel my kitchen I could like I loved home ownership I didn't want any of that outside so and then of course I moved to 18 Acres um and have all of the all of the to do yes um we have several lawn mowes now uh but I guess my point is so I'm okay I'm unlike Scott I okay having the smaller I just to me the beauty of the town home was I didn't have to do any of the yard work but I still had home ownership where these tiny little Lots feel like I still have to do yard work but it's a like I don't actually get a yard you can use a weed wh if you could if you could bring that back joh so and then it does change there are some here so this piece here is all asso shade maintain M okay double snow with grass this piece here is Villa's retirement this here will be HOA okay okay this piece here will be HOA you know kind of more of the retirement you know here these Lots here with 72 we're figuring that to be homeowner maintained you maintain your yard there are some deeper yards there but it's one more variety um what you know just in regular home ownership uh insurance is Right inflationary cost um they're finding that they're getting fewer companies willing to carry the town homes why is that you heard that why is that you know I don't know I think I think it's CU some of the early ones had a lot of other I I don't even know if there was more maintenance to them what what I can't answer that I guess is um maybe it's just they figure cost of when you have um you know maybe maybe I don't know is there bigger buildings is there when you don't have to take care of the outside there's less concern of dam I have no idea um but uh they're finding the HOA do so by the time if you take HOA dues along with the snow removal and everything um in the town homes and Sundance this year they're going to go up and they're going to be roughly 300 bucks a month so if you had 300 bucks a month and you still pay for interior insurance so don't it pays for the exterior insurance so there are some fees that would get added on a single family lot but if you look um then they require sprinkler systems there's other cost that realistically those smaller single family homes might only be4 to $50,000 more what requires the sprinkler system uh to this is lawn sprinkler you're talking about right in the building in in the building fire supression yeah fire suppression and if there's any holes in them then they have to fix them and you get charged that so there's there's other cost there's other construction costs you know on the common walls you know for fire protection and things so those aren't as cheap as you you think and now you take the insurance now you take that difference in insurance and add that as a monthly payment now just just say somebody can have $250 more a month to put a home payment so that's that's where I think you'll see this product becoming more common I'm not going to sayy the town homes are out but and I just thought' be a nice variety to break it up I didn't realize they had to have sprinklers MH that's not cheap no for a while was even duplexes I believe I think code now's duplexes you don't but anything over three yeah three three and more so uh one other comment you guys can all get your rocks ready for this one I personally am not opposed and I understand we need a number of lots to make this whole thing work I get it dollars matter um I am not opposed to taking that 3 Acre ra Park and putting it in into homes I don't know that we ever kind of closed out that discussion cuz I it seemed like it seemed like this was a lot ofart from that area but uh that way you get a little more space in these 40t Lots but isn't the Park area not counting against us it is not yeah it is so won't change so putting houses there isn't going to change density but you can W you can widen these out the little 40 fo you can spread them on it but my point is adding houses here you've actually also added acreage here and so I'm not sure it would have that much impact on the overall in N density it's going to wash yeah he might wash but it gives him extra homes instead of if these went to 45 or 50 and then it would help him with some more Lots on the other end to get this whole thing it to 62t for an average nine more Lots got to go I mean right now this thing is 100% under the requirement you're talking about getting rid of which Park upper and I think part of that is the Pud I get it get and I get the the roundabout right probably going to come and say who's going to have to pay for the round about like I said dollars matter I get it I understand that I just don't like so close together you know we talk about traffic right not one more house gets built in Dayton Bas at Fernbrook is going to keep getting and busier so I do think the the roundabout will help slow traffic down it's a good you know and help yes speaking on that you know that one of my concerns is is that that last house in the row along of existing homes along Fernbrook and how that roundabout um works with their their driveway and it looks like it doesn't that those people would have to go North to go south and hous I think where I think there's a couple things there as as as the county really right I'm going to have you know I mean City will get input I know me I'll get as a developer will get no input how that that lays out um and so one of the reasons why we just said hey let's just table this whole commercial area I haven't marketed it to anybody nothing really need to see how that Road's going to line out but I mean can they put a meeting at the at the end just you know but then have a part you know a space in between so people can cut across I like a cut out in the is is that something the cony would swallow we don't have an answer on it yet we have been in contact with them about it they would intervene it yeah okay whether it be tainted or Just Brakes in the median to allow access to the driveways but they didn't say no it would be a little awkward coming out of roundabout and somebody's making a leftand turn right there but how often that can happen yeah but your traffic it's going slow enough that it's still doable no I I think that I mean just so those driveways aren't cut off I guess that's that's my concern tried pretty you know genuinely decently to work with everybody on on that you know section of houses they got you know drainage issues ETC but uh if it meant whatever you know the county can I understand it I just I think it's I wish I could tell you no problem but that's probably right facing new do in the county what happens and uh maybe we get this answer before this development either even starts but what happens if we're uh five months into this thing and the county says NOP there is no roundabout there yeah then we got a problem yeah we're hoping for an answer to that like before this goes before starts if somebody's foot in the bill I can't see the county you want to pay for roundabout and I think you know we talk and and there's uh potential that we can move it somewhat South but you're lining with 114th but then as we go there then we have the houses on the east side of the street right so it's kind of i c i notice this is a like a Communications terminal just not far east of the road I don't know what that would cost to move but but yeah if we could slide that down just to have you know a little bit that would help too but guess that's like you say to the county but I mean I think it's just coming back with some variety trying to make it affordable I mean I think um you know Fernbrook is right now the main Corridor 610 isn't moving right you know would that development make sense in the center of the city right now probably not you know and and I can see where the bigger lots and all that come to play but so to counter a little bit what Scott said I with this kind of density I think the need for the park is greater so I wouldn't be a fan of eliminating that corner and and that's not for me I mean that's why you guys are up there and and whatever you decide on that but I do I do like the variety of housing types in here and I think that's what gets me to this kind of density and being comfortable with it is that there is some variety I also appreciate I kind of took this thing apart a little bit but you reduced the number of 40 foot Lots by 70 right and then it looks like the 45s and 50 you might as well say you just kind of swap but there's a you know and the rest of the gain is in the 55 and and bigger size lots and and I think that that improves the the overall development I think that this version of it is much better than the previous one um this isn't necessarily for this to but so it sounds like other cities are looking at what is our pavement with standard for developments like this so in a residential 32 foot yeah so I'm hearing a lot of cities looking at reducing that because it helps the speeds it helps get more less pavement L maintenance is that a thought we we should be looking at because it seems like that's a lot of road yeah really depends on the development um when you rely on on street parking that's really difficult to do the the narrow true this does is more I mean if if you have bigger setbacks and you can accomodate more parking within the driveway something you could consider but if we go much narrower if we go any narrower than 30 ft it's really tough to get parking when you're yeah when you're counting on on street parking I suppose and I think that's what are one of the things there was a discussion at the Planning Commission just about the you know P hey that road along Fernbrook we thought it was only one fronting but you know make it wide so you have parking and what is that Alleyway is that 32 also is that a standard no uh it was n yeah I think I think that's 20 and that alley is a that's private so the HOA has to clean that out and really not looking to park on that well and also a snow removal like where's snow snow where is snow going to day this winter we didn't have any but two Winters ago even if you get in there and try to take it out like there's you can't get in and take everything out all the time it has to sit somewhere for a while so in Minnesota we do also need to account for yeah some that but that's just off I mean that's you you can almost make the argument the more streak causes you issues because now you got more snow to remove but but when you're so CL like when you yeah you have no and the one thing the alleys you know if you took say you went to Northeast Minneapolis right old you know the garage was detached these are attached in the house so you know the problem is especially those that alley was you know your garage was like built right next to the alley well I know was angled right too yeah right yeah yeah so there wasn't any got make a sh this this this you wouldn't have I mean it'd be your traditional driveway just to the to the backyard one of the things I know the we're not we are and are not talking you still have that commercial spot identified as commercial a conversation that's come up kind of repeatedly in all sorts of different places is that Dayton has not been thinking about you know the senior tsunami the Aging in place and having having places for people you know you're starting to get there with maybe thinking about retirement Villas but if that some are part of what's currently your marked for commercial went to something that was more for senior housing whether it is just just just seniors or whether it's like a care you know some sort of stepped up Care Facility does that change the density enough that we could get larger lots to make Scott happy but still meet the density we need and not take away the park is that something that um what I think there you're really kind of I don't know how that density is calculated I think that's not in the district for for density now I answering the question am I open to uh an assisted living like I just threw some stuff out there you know I think the engineer really just spit puled it I'm not even going to put on him like yeah you know just what's what's their option I I would uh I mean I'm listening to this I'm seeing my dad right now go through it would it make sense sure I look at it I do know along the golf course yet and Sundance scens we had the apartment that's a 55 plus that's what I came in marketed at yeah I could have many times been here in front of with just market rate I'm like I came I started with 55 and right now I just can't get anybody interested not and I'm not going to lie it's not like I you see signs I'm marketing hard but if few of the people I talk to I do think that's different than the assisted living and and one of the things I think um maybe what you know wouldn't be bad because you'd have you know maybe you can put somebody you know there's a lot of houses there right your family could be close by to visit yeah but I don't really know anything you know I don't know anything anything about that business nor than you know I know right there's been um concerns of a gas station I don't know anything of that business either but I'm sure open to look for it or look you know but I think anything I've really come to the conclusion just let's wait till we get yeah that roundabout figured out which is yeah Fair my uh input on the gas station thing is is without a doubt every one of these people are going to use it I don't I don't I personally don't see anything wrong with driving you can drive five six minutes anywhere in this city and get gas yes so to me it's not that big a deal but luckily that's an out lot right now it's an out lot and we don't have but I was just wondering from a density and I didn't even want to bring it up but I was thinking if an assisted living thing if that counts as density then you could potentially widen some you know get rid of some of the other lots to widen them out to make Scott happy but still hit the density that we need and whether I'm happy or not if it's 3 to two c van so they have he'd have to Plat that for it to count against this right now and currently that's all just out and and so to be honest I I mean I just was transparent right I've been here with a bunch of concept plans versus one um you know let's just say the roundabout comes in there and there's nothing really wants to Market I'm probably going to come here and ask for houses on it yeah yeah but it's not currently counting so one way or the I guess that was my question one way or another no matter what happen it would not affect the other density yeah those weren't put in calul got thank you for that anybody have any other questions think I'm out trying to pick up some time aren't you so Pro so we' be good so I just figured Park stays 7 and 1/2t setbacks I mean that's where it is on everything else I can live with that but I can't if it's four to one so be it whatever it doesn't bother me I'm teering I'm prob good all right thank you any other questions thanks okay uh we're back on schedule yeah 20 minutes we're still 20 minutes behind we're going to fix that up at the end though what was the 20 minutes we lost in the math here oh that's right is going to get Mayor of council tonight is um the approval of the term sheet for the parkway neighborhood we are grabbing um Jason arsal from Ellers I think he's in conference room yes he's here I saw him can can the bottom line is it what we talked about last time looks like that's y exactly I will uh have Jason AR to explain but essentially yes yeah cool ready ready for you good evening uh mayor members of the council sorry we were back there chatting we didn't know how long that last item was going to take so apologize for the delay um well we're here again to talk just briefly about the parkway Neighborhood Apartments uh site plan is is showing here so I think everyone's familiar with where this is located and what's being proposed uh but we'll talk in a little more detail about that uh as we run through here uh and just to kind of uh Orient you here I just wanted to talk a little about where we've been kind of how we got to where we are uh some of the things that we talked about that we would come back to you with uh and then what what's on here for discussion tonight really is What's called the term sheet which is really an outline for an eventual agreement with the developer related to the tax abatement that we've been discussing so so just uh just to revisit here uh we talked about the fact that this is a project that uh you know isn't financially feasible right now uh for for a number of reasons but primarily driven by the need for um uh sign ific infrastructure to this site and what had been discussed initially was forgiveness of some City fees and that that wasn't going to be enough to get it all the way to financial feasibility and so uh we began to talk about other Alternatives uh and then December uh we talked with you all about some ideas related to that uh driven primarily by adding some pis youo tax abatement to the mix in order to make this project financially feasible and if you recall after that discussion the direction from you all was to go back and negotiate uh some form of a pay youo tax abat with the developer that would supplement those fee waivers make the project financially feasible but that would it would be subject to additional detailed uh financial analysis and we would come back to you all with all those details uh for you to look at and consider so that's kind of where we're at tonight uh we went back and did that analysis uh which confirmed that we could support up to nine years of tax abatement which would total about 1.9 million of present value so in today's dollars uh same thing as we discussed previously is that only 75% of the increased taxes would be directed to that abatement payment 25% would still be retained by the city to cover ongoing operational costs that you might see coming from this project and then because it's pay you go nothing comes up front from the city the developer has to go out and raise those dollars on its own uh and use the abatement payments to pay back the loan that they get in order to do that and if those abatement uh payments to them aren't enough to pay out that total assistance then the city doesn't make up that shortfall so that's the concept that was discussed um you know that's what what we'll talk a little more detail about and in this case uh because tax abatement every jurisdiction needs to uh agree to participate uh we're only talking about the city's portion of the taxes and we talk about this tax payment not the county not the school questions about that before we dive in all right so as you recall uh what we discussed was that we would first uh well first we had we had already conducted a profor analysis which is really just looking at all the developers numbers and projections for the project uh we had to dig in a little deeper on that to come to an actual abatement number uh and take into consideration some of the changes that had been made with the project the unit counts the phasing things like that uh so we went back and did all of that you have your packet this evening our memorandum which is about a three-page memo that summarizes our detailed findings as it relates to that analysis and uh but as I say at the end of the day uh uh basically uh what we were looking at is that the project costs that were represented the expenses that they anticipate going forward how the project was being financed meets industry standards it meets the things that we would expect to see when we look at a project like this and that's really the first thing that we're looking for uh because if those things are overstated then it can show a greater need for assistance so we want to make sure that that isn't isn't happening uh the projected rents here uh are consistent with rents for other projects in the market and we also have a a market study that was um you know done by a third party party for this project uh Maxfield research who's a reputable market research firm and so the rents here are consistent with that market study as well uh and then when we look at that we say okay well if this project has to absorb all of the cost of the new roadway how does that impact the return on investment because that's fundamentally what this is about the developer saying that you know if we have to pay for all those costs of the road the project does not generate enough of a return on investment and we can't attract investors to the project and so we're looking at in this case a yield on cost metric that is just simply taking the Project's net operating income and dividing it by the total development cost and that's a very common metric that multif family developers use we focus specifically on that one because that is a metric that is measured before Debt Service and right now we are in a uh kind of a high interest rate environment which we don't anticipate will stay that way forever and often what will happen is that you know developers will refinance out of those higher interest rate mortgages is something lower so we're trying to take that out of this equation and really just focus on that headline number which is the net operating income and generally uh what we're seeing is that you know uh if a project is uh going to Warrant City assistance that that should be less than 7% if it starts to exceed 7% then then it should be feasible in the marketplace Without Really any City assistance at all and so when we look at this we calculated that's approximately 6% on average over a nine-year term so we average out so so in the early years it's it's lower and in the later years it's higher but on average it's only getting to 6% and so what that tells us is that there's some assistance that's warranted there uh and then with the 9 years of assistance we're calculating that's about 6.5% on average so still not quite to that seven but getting closer uh to the amounts that we're talking about so that includes the fee forgiveness and uh the abatement and you see it doesn't move the needle very much here but we're talking about $114 million project uh so you know these dollars relative to what we're talking about here don't move the needle all that all that much so that's really where we landed you know all in together um what it looks like is that uh we talked about you saw this previously 1.9 million the way that works out is just these payments here uh this is the actual calculated abatement if all three phases are built uh and it ramps up over time and it would take that 9 years as I mentioned to repay uh a $1.9 million note at 6.25% interest and again that's splitting the the uh the abatements 25 to the city 75% to the developer and then after 9 years those payments would stop so that's uh where we ended with with the particular um a batement piece of this and then what you have then also in your packet is that all has been committed to what we call a term sheet and again that is just an outline of what an eventual agreement would look like with this developer uh that would be a more of a binding agreement this is not a this term sheet is not a binding agreement but it at least gives you a sense of where what an agreement would look like when it comes back at least for the pertinent deal points and so what that term sheet says is that the developer is obligated to construct the units of housing 4502 in three phases that they will pay for and construct all necessary infrastructure uh that's all identified within the city's separate development agreement so within their plat and this and the attached development agreement with that they'll be obligated to do these things uh that the city then will provide the 1.9 million pgo tax abatement and that the W wave fees that I've always been under discussion for phases one and two are still included as part of that uh and also evidenced in that City development agreement and those total 3.48 million uh there is a provision in that term sheet that the developer covers the city's expenses as it relates to this whole abatement transaction so the cost of doing analysis that that's been undertaken uh legal time as it relates to actual drafting of agreement those sorts of things are to be covered by the developer and then we talked a little bit about this but that future agreement would also include a look back provision uh and just briefly again what that is is uh because we've done all this on projections and we all know that those are going to change what a look back provision allows us to do is to look at the project once it's done built and operational and if the return on investment there is higher than what was anticipated because either costs were less or rents were higher whatever the case may be it provides for opportunity to reduce the city's payments of abatement over that 9-year period of time so that will be built into the agreement as well and is that arbitrated H how does that happen because I'm guessing it's it's not not all on the city to just say well we've decided you're our always too good yeah it's a good question mayor the members of the council so what happens is that the agreement spells out when and how that look back uh exercise will be conducted so it's in it it says when the so for example when the project reaches stabilization that triggers the calculation and then the agreement will spell out exactly how the calculation is made we'll be projecting a yield on cost just like we did with the proor analysis but instead of doing it on projections we'll be doing it starting with real numbers and projecting forward through those nine years and the agreement will spell that out there'll be an exhibit that even details how those calculations will be made and all of that would be included in that agreement so it's all set at the outset um and and defined as to how it will work okay so it's pretty Quantified so there's really no arguing on his side there there are sometimes arguments uh but okay so that gets to my point that who decides those well I mean I you know they a court ultimately I mean yeah if there was a real dispute that that Rose to that to that level but I would say that uh because of uh many many years of experience with the language and these look back Provisions I think we got them to a place where they're solid they're pretty solid yeah but I don't want to give you the idea that you know it's it's a guarantee that nothing could happen or that there couldn't be a challenge to it but they're pretty well laid out pretty well spelled out in in in black and white and then even with those exhibits that I mentioned very clear about what the intent and how they're supposed to be uh administered okay so there's there would be a number in there the the expected Roi like you've got on on your information yes um and then the look back agreement would say you're you're too far above that Y and and so we would like to make a change to this payo note or or the abatement piece of it I guess whichever piece we control um what does that look like typically I mean if it's 6% to 7 and a half then triggers trigger an adjustment or I mean that's got to be spelled out otherwise it will yeah and we'll negotiate what that threshold is we haven't defined that specifically yet um typically what happens when we do these is that we go through the exercise and uh you know the the look back isn't triggered often right because the costs came in higher or the rents weren't as high but at the end of the day when we do it we do go through the calculation often we just confirm that yes the projected return on investment is actually at or below what was anticipated and therefore we don't need to do the calculation but uh there will be a specified rate of return in there and we would be projecting to that point and if we happen to project that we're going to exceed it again these are still future looking projections we're doing them at year three and trying to predict what happens in year n by by projecting those actual figures and if we project an overage then what happens is we reduce the payments down to where we get to that percentage threshold and then we issue a new note of of a lower amount is what happens so then theoretically you pay it off more quickly so perhaps instead of 9 years maybe it's six or something like that M so that's how it goes okay I think yeah for me that I think that's an important provision because the the whole concept of this tax abatement sort of came at the 11th hour to us and uh you know I think that we we're owed that kind of protection I guess that that if it can be paid off quicker or or reduced somehow that uh that that's fair and I mayor members of the council I would agree that that's and this is included in you know virtually all agreements at this point uh the idea being that if a project didn't need the public assistance it shouldn't have it right so uh we try to do that in the front end as best we can but we know circumstances change and uh so we have the opportunity here to look at it again yeah so that's the term sheet uh in terms of next steps and I'm still happy to answer any questions that you have here uh uh there would be a need to draft then that formal tax abatement agreement that would just be premised on this term sheet with all the key points that are contained within that and then uh as we discussed before uh your role in that then is to hold a public hearing uh on the abatement uh pass a resolution approving the abatement and the abatement agreement and that can all happen at one meeting but it does require publication of notice of the hearing and things of that nature so I think right now I think that's will be planned for March 25th of 2025 and I think that's the same night that there's other actions land use related on this project and so I think there's the thought that those would come together at the same time uh so if that happens then on the 25th that is the end of the council's um role in terms of approving that tax abatement then uh the developer has to actually go out and perform right do all the things they said they were going to do and if that happens then the abatement note would be issued to the developer and then those payments it's an administrative function that those happen then on a semiannual basis that I mentioned so that's how ultimately that would work uh but and I'll stop there what if there's any questions again I'm certainly happy to answer those so I have a question I'm not sure if it's for you or staff um so one of the things is that the road is so expensive and that's what's costing so much money what if we built the road in like can we build the road for cheaper and then not have to do the tax abatement or is that an option same same SP um so Cil van said I think we've done some research on building that I don't think we' ever want to build the full Road no but at least a portion of it we could build a portion of it I think some preliminary CLS have been done by Jason quisberg I don't remember the numbers are 3.5 it's probably not any cheaper for the city to build it okay I mean we' build it to the same standards we' require they design it the same that we would yeah it could be um structured differently though there would be no abatement then involved in the process you know there'd be smaller fee forgiveness um obviously the developer wouldn't have to construct nearly as much either so the financial burden would be off that that person I think it's really a question on risk okay that the city is willing to do is it more cuz there is risk if we put a roadway in without any guarantees that anything's built there roadway to Nowhere could be a roadway to Nowhere for I don't think it would be very long again but we don't have any guarantees so um it's really more or less the city's risk um they're if Cil is interested in doing that we can most certainly have the conversation with the developer but I think we've had a preliminary conversation and from what I understood it seems like it he didn't really love that idea but I don't want to speak for him he's not here I was just curious yep so it's a great question any other questions sounds like we're good sounds great great thank you thank you um we need a break anybody all right we can take a 5 minute reset e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e we will uh come back in item item K thank you Mr Mayor members of the council uh tonight you're asked to consider resolution 12-25 uh conditional use permit for exceeding maximum impervious surface coverage in the A1 District uh this is related to construction of accessory structuring I'm going to make a motion to approve it I need a second second any discussion all those in favor say I all those those poos say no you're good good I listen to the Planning Commission great job I had all this information for you 16 slides right now he K all right could have sent you home 3 hours ago oh no he's not done yet no I know Marty you won't be so easy no you're not going to be so easy thanks very much for that I appreciate it item yeah um good evening mayor and Council um the item before you toight is to award the contract for the LC Stevens's master plan uh some time ago the council asked me to go out for RFP um to extend the uh master plan that we have and revise it um to look at what um we haven't got phased in yet um we put out the RFP in December we got six responses um from there myself and John went through the original six and looked at them through the criteria of the RFP and eliminated three of those to make uh three finalists for the part commission to uh consider uh the three finalists presented to the park commission at their last meeting and from there they selected two finalists um the uh MSA was one of the uh the finalists and Dame and Farber were the other finalists um the idea originally was to have them present to you guys tonight um and then you can make your decision for the award um I'm not sure with 10 minutes on the agenda if that's what you guys want to do or how you want to go forward with this um we do have Damon Farber online we have MSA in the audience and online um if you want to do a question and answer session with that um MSA um with the the number one uh pick from the par commission Dam Fara with the second second choice yeah mayor and M I think both when we had talked to both and all of the applicat when they first said we kind of prer to a presentation and a Q&A knowing how much was on the agenda we had to address that so again we'll leave you with that of what the council may want to do but do want to provide that to the council for information that we had presented to them of Q&A presentation um you guys want a presentation or just can they be fast Q&A quick to the point what do you mean what what's fast I guess I'd be good without I'm good with just question answer but it it's a question and answer I mean I'll be okay got okay I we got I'm not sure I'm not sure where I want to go I tell you what I got nothing good to say so I won't say nothing I want to hear it all I don't need the presentation I don't I okay so what questions do we have two the questions full well you're standing there so I'll ask you a Target can you can you explain so you said the Parks Commission had a first trick and a second choice correct what can you summarize why they had a first like what made them the first choice I can do better I have a member the member of the Parks Commission can you come forward he's not only a member he's a chair chair of the Parks Commission all right sorry we have not officially met yet so I did not recognize that but um can you summarize why you why they were your first why the one firm was your first choice and the other form was your second choice name and address name and address pel um 131 61 zanar also Park shareff mayor council members it was great to have all three presentations uh what we boiled it down to was there something extra to have somebody in the room presenting so that's why the top two were picked off of that uh we chose MSA as number one because we're already working with them on the River Project already been familiar with the vendor understanding them having the relationship built we figured it would help I say things along but otherwise you think they would both do a great job it's just that that that existing relationship is always nice to work with someone that you already know that you can work well with correct okay awesome thank you that was my big question so there was a substantial difference in fee between the top two picks why do you feel like uh MSA or what some of the things you said to have value for sure um but is there are there additional services are there things happening that that that help uh justify that difference in fee I guess is what I'm asking we didn't focus on fees because it wasn't necessarily an Apple apples apples measurement um I would ask you to ask them to explain their fee structure what you'll find out as some things are missing from others they didn't think they needed it or they had previous experience and Staffing already available to do it versus bringing in a third party to do it so it's kind of a different different product correct yeah one didn't have some engineering included exactly the the cheaper one didn't have some of the engineering included what I pref preferred over the cheaper one was and and maybe this can still happen the cheaper one had a 10we turnaround on on designing this park me personally we are dragging our feet on this park and it's just been driving me crazy um we spend more time talking about it then I'll be dead before it's built I mean I just drives me nuts we you keeping cooking keep eating the cookies and you will be there's cookies um so anyway that's that's kind of where that is go ahead you guys go I just have a hard time with this whole thing I mean we haven't even as a as a park commission and a council we haven't talked about what do you want to see in that Park I drew a plan of this park about 6 months ago and nobody's seen it it got buried I'm sure it's get to garbage can by now and I think once the contract is awarded that's when we can Define the scope of work that we want to see as part of this project I think that would be near the time that we can Define all that stuff that's not going to happen you're going to tell them what you want and that's what's going to happen it it would totally driven by you guys who made the decisions well I can certainly see the Synergy between this and the water Trail work um it would make sense to to continue with or expand the scope of the the of the one contractor rather than bringing essentially a third into the Mi I'm a big fan of making them sell themselves too you know give them three minutes give me your best pitch and go from there yeah three minutes is elevator pitch we can do that we have we have people on lines that's what the council wants to do right go for it that what you want that the council wants to do three El elevator pit I don't care I mean these guys are going to make up their mind and just here to support that's that's what here to do I personally would rather spend the 60,000 bucks on amenities in the park but that's me that's have have a hard time with somebody telling me what to do one of the things that's been a a big driver for the water Trails was um and MSA brought this to the table early in that process was was the ability to attract other interested parties National Park Service and the DNR and three rivers and so on have all come to the table now on that on that part of the project do we think there's any potential for that given their expertise to do that with this park the way they explained it to us that night yes I'm sure there's something that rers can get into in that part they would look at it okay well we to the point where we're you just still want to hear the three minutes de don't you I kind of want to he the three minute spel from both groups both okay well let's do that but I'm only one of four of five well sure let's do that okay come on up people who are here can they you prer to have MSA first or um I guess it really doesn't matter at this stage yeah okay we yeah we'll have M up first just because they're in the ROM and then there's a minute each okay um pull it up yeah I guess some of the no this is a summary of the longer one yeah you got three minutes make it good no pressure I'll run you up and once you're on you're on we I gotta go we have up a little higher yeah so uh rain Gardner I think you've all met her before with the the um water Trails project uh she's online she was um busy with a corporate meeting tonight so she couldn't make it with us uh we overwhelmed the park board the last meeting because we all showed up but um this is the core team I'm Dan Williams I'm a landscape architect and so I'd be project manager on the project and um and then I'll just go through everybody real quick you proba just skip that why should we pick you why should you pick us okay so um yes there is that continuity with all the projects one of the things that MSA offers and we talk to the park board about is we have a funding team we're one of the few engineering firms that have a funding team so we'll go through looking at the project and identifying funding sources so that's where we talk about the water course that's what we did with the water course so we know these different funds out there for different types of amenities yeah and that came from our conversations with the stakeholders as mentioned by the council member and we've scoped a pretty significant amount of community engagement events that might have contributed that definitely contributed to the higher fee that we've proposed for this project uh we have a scope for each f pH open house popup events meeting people where they are this is the city's plan not our plan we have the technical expertise with our engineering team our La team the planning team to bring the vision to life but it's what your community members want it's what your users want and so we really scoped that significantly in our approach uh that all leads to stakeholder discussions Community member discussions that might know more stakeholders for us to have those conversations with that then results in potential funding sources like the water Trail project did and as uh Marty mentioned usually the kickoff meeting that's when we establish an actual timeline we just kind of throw something at the board at first because we're trying to figure out what you want to do and how much you want to accomplish so in the kickoff meeting we can fine-tune that based on what the community wants to do especially on the public engagement side so we can we can shorten that down um but we are working on the boat launch too at L LC Stevens uh Christian he is on the phone as well he's a project manager for this project so one of the things that we're doing uh with Marty is is we're keeping him up to dat with bi-weekly reports Christian's already started that with this project we're working on the boat launch with DNR doing the same thing and so Christian and myself will be keeping Marty up to date bi-weekly on all these projects and how they're progressing I think lastly we can just touch on our implementation we are full service engineering for or full service Municipal firm we have Engineers funding team Architects all of the bub board we can bring your project from Vision through completion and if you want to yeah so we've got MEP so we got Plumbing electric water Structural Engineers Architects One-Stop shop oh nice so we can build so we're not going to have a ton of subcontractors okay we One Stop Shop change ORD we get in three minutes yes I'm very happy you technically have 20 seconds any l thank you guys very much yes thank you I think yep PA for [Music] dramatic minutes all right who is there's an Eric won't count this against their 3 minutes though I don't think they're here so and that's a resident and I don't know okay there you go that's helpful yeah here here's three minutes let's save those three you're welcome okay where do we want to go Motion second if we're going to word that how you want me to word this I'll make a motion to accept the MSA proposal I'll second any more discussion all those in favor say I I I I going us funding so other people will pay for that I said I you said so sad any knees no pergas me out the door if you give me a okay that passes 5 to Sero and we can move on burn that damn thing you can't burn the pera cuz I think it's FB all right Dennis is already round two uh good evening U mayor and Council once again um the it in front of you is approval to put out to bid uh for the 22 24 Park Improvement project project um Paul Kangas has been working on this um he recently presented the 90% P plans to the uh Park commission uh he's since developed those um you have a 95% set of plans in your uh packet today um Paul's here to talk you through and ask answer any questions um what we're looking to do is just get this out to bid so we can get the the project moving this year good evening uh three of the five of you are well acquainted with me Paul Kangas 18601 1 152nd Avenue in Dayton uh tonight is a simple request it is to advertise for the bidding of the 2024 Park Improvement project uh consisting of three different Park sites phase three of LC Stevens uh what we call PSA 21 which um certainly needs a new home but basically the area around Sundance uh the north half of the area uh north and east of Sundance and a small Improvement at ion Gardens uh the packet that you have had the updated cost estimate uh the highlights in green are confirmed current project amounts uh the items highlighted in red were things that I still need from the civil engineer uh we got the irrigation plan over the weekend waiting on civil engineering drawings hoping to have that this week the current plan is to put these on the street on Monday or as early as possible next week with a potential bid date of March 27th that would be improved at your first meeting in April so I'll stand for questions uh no pretty presentations at this point it's all construction documents and cost estimates which will get turned into the bid form uh you will know not uh one of the items I did include in your packet was a list of add alternates and that's a strategic thing that I do for every project um hoping that bids come in good and solid and high value uh we use add alternates to add elements that you deem to be worthy of that extra cost but we're not bound to include them as part of the base bid so it's uh it's strategic uh but it helps us make sure that we can enter into a bid uh we had really good bid data from 2022 when the 2021 Parks Improvement package was bid uh what I can't tell you is how much the current market and inflation has impacted those we always take our best guess I've got a strong track record of being within 3 to 5% of my estimates typically on the high side uh on purpose but um with any luck we'll hit the numbers that we're close to and and you'll have to make some hard decisions from there so any questions I can answer for you tonight you're not bound to any contract tonight it's just an opportunity to go out for bid and to go through the public bidding process which is a significant work effort I don't really have any questions or guess just some comments to me looking at these plans the the whole thing from page 168 to to the whole thing for me very hard to to follow I don't need elevation changes and all that there is no picture of in here of the whole the whole plan and no aerial um it goes from a shelter at the uh 21 area to all of a sudden two three pages later we're talking about a a shelter at Stevens Park it's all over the place however this thing was put together but I mean we've been talking about it long enough that I I kind of follow it and I don't know that the numbers have changed I think the 21 Park area has been right around a million bucks for the since the get-go yep the one issue that I have with it Paul is some of the numbers that you have in here concrete at 18 bucks a square foot that's probably two and a half times what a 5 minute phone call today you can get it for 11 bucks all day long you're welcome to invite those contractors to BU the project and that's where I'm going with this to me some of these numbers are way out of L Marty you were given a quote from an individual on a 20x30 building for about 45,000 bucks which one was that Sean that came in out the one that we discussed at the public Workshop yeah I think that when that wasn't built that was no it wasn't built it was 120,000 I think that Scot uh he revised it to with the bigger building okay I think 40,000 was the basic building but not what we were looking at that day um so to me some of these things I I think we need to to kick some of these out and have a get our own subcontractor to bid on because the numbers to me are just way out of line um so through the general contracting process they will get multiple bids and we can even ask to see those multiple bids to prove that you're getting good values um but this is not my first rodeo and I've gone through this I have a detailed comparison of the bid results from 2022 I do synthesis for every bid result I put low bid I put averages I put our previous estimate and be able to compare that and then we adjust for inflation depending on how many years old that data is so I think you would be shocked to see what construction prices have done it's based on real data I hope I'm wrong I hope you get lower dollars I made the phone call this morning on three of these items and they're just the concrete alone on on the uh 4500 ft of concrete I can save ,000 bucks by making a phone call now that's whether or not we're going to have that guy do it I mean well what I'm saying before in the past we what we've used is people that you set up and all of a sudden I don't think they're they're not hand selected by us they're on bids from contractors I understand that I that I'm not I'm not sure that you are getting that because you can make a call to some local guy that does concrete Y and that's not based on working through a general contractor in a true public bid environment those numbers are different that's where I'm going with it the general my point is the general contractor is getting a piece the contractor everybody in line is getting a piece where we could go and get our own guy Marty would have to supervise the guy maybe but we're going to save a ton of money and I know you guys don't care because the public pays for it I I do care I'm shocked that you just spent 60 ,000 on a proposal that I didn't apply for and thought was unnecessary so you get a little bit of a a disconnect between what you want to pay for versus what you can pay for and that's been a problem in LC Stevens All Along the next project is a three million doll building you know an event center there's there's very little room left on that Park so I I've made my opinion clear I didn't propose on the project for a reason the frustration level that I have is high so I'm happy to share my thoughts we can do it offline if you wish but okay you're questioning 30 plus years of experience in a public bid environment I think that's inappropriate so when they then why are we here to ask you to go to bid why are we go to bid I don't have a problem with that you're here to review and and allow the I guess I just took a little bit of umage with your I've got 30 years experience thing because I I do have some frustrations with some of the stuff that we've seen too and it isn't necessarily what you're doing it's some of the choices we make um the pero we made a joke about that but the pergola the perola was phase one it was 10 years ago yep R yep is that does that matter it was 20 grand for that 12 X2 perola 22 the blocks the Limestone that is cracking somehow um go look at those blocks oh yeah and I'm telling you it's like they're manufactured they're cracking an inch below the it's just some of the stuff we look at and say what's going on and and I think that's some of what you're hearing so I wouldn't you know necessarily personalize it but it's frustrating because there's only a few people that bid on these things a few outfits because there's only a few outfits that can do them all but there's a there's there's just a lot of um you know individual pieces we look at and we just scratch our head and said how is it possible that it cost that much and maybe in some cases it really does and and uh but even you know even before um I mean that even before Co we've seen a lot of that stuff so I I don't doubt that that that really spiked prices it's just some of the stuff I don't know I've questions well the the reason that PSA 21 is almost a million dollars now you've added irrigation and you've added parking those features have never been included in the neighborhood parks before you've added now irrigation to Hayden Hills and portions of River Hills so we've added scope so a park that was let's see Hidden Hills was like 5 25 540 3 years ago and now we're looking at 9 something but a quarter of a million of that is irrigation and parking so costs have gone up and you're talking 5 in concrete not four there's there's lot by the way I noticed that why is that 5 in uh just better durability you know we want these to be there for a long time and that extra inch adds a significant uh length to the structural Integrity of the concrete it's not that it won't crack it's just not going to break up I don't mind going for bids I mean I'll make a motion we go for a bid but I'm going to scrutinize the bid when it comes that's me anybody I'm going to scrutinize them Scott I do a very detailed synthesis I will share with you any information you want as to where my numbers come from uh I've I think I've proven over the years to be a very good Steward of the the dollars that the city of Dayton has spent in the park you not like the Perla but that is a very prominent location I don't like the $18 a foot on this current bid that we just got today okay and if it comes in at 16 I still don't like it because I know a guy that'll do it for between 11 and 12 but you have to pay somebody to manage that process so either Marty has to do it or you have to pay me to do it and that's not an insignificant amount of time and money okay well it's not worth $68 a square foot to me to to pay you to do it if you do it on every single line item it absolutely is you know the general contractor will market up what 10% hopefully 10% I don't think you can stay in business in 10% Mark well clear profit at 10 that would probably be the minimum net this is a competitive bid environment that's part of the challenge of Municipal projects is we have to go through a very rigid process right we have to publicly advertise we have to take public bids we have to watch things differently than we would in a private build scenario I absolutely agree it could be done cheaper in a negotiated contract but there's rules about that you can't do it okay well to me on another item the grill $1,200 Grill they 350 bucks somebody's got to put it in the ground and it's not worth that difference to me okay Public Works can stick it in the ground and the guy can pour in the cement can put the cementer on it after it's sitting in the ground Marty and I did talk about that and he has concerns about Staffing and the ability to do that in a timely fashion so yeah I'm happy to pull it out I'll second the motion who motion sorry motion I missed missed it sorry any more questions discussion all right all those in favor say I hi hi all right all those opposed say no motion is approved to go for bid pre bid meeting on the 18th that's When contractors ask questions with the goal of bidding on the 27th and it's possible that could get deflected a week or so but I'll work with Marty on the announcement before it goes out on the street thank you thank you than you thank you item n parking regulations all right do the same thing you did last time 9:30 9:30 uh no because I'm it's not going to be an easy s for me I'll say that all right Mr Mayor members of the council tonight you're uh asked to consider ordinance agenda mentioned or the title of the agenda item was approval of an ordinance the Planning Commission did unanimously recommend denial so I just want to bring that up um in uh relation to what you had normally seen on the cover page so uh this stems from a conversation that they open forum and at a December meeting a resident received a violation related to him parking uh boat trailers and other uh items of the like uh in his backyard I believe that he had a more a number of three of them um currently the surfacing for driveways and uh parking areas um reads as uh followed here on the presentation uh all parking areas shall be surfaced with concrete or bituminous material so as to be dust free um and I will just note that uh existing there is no uh Provisions regarding location of parking areas except uh regarding easements and property line setbacks before we move on I just had a question and I I don't think it was on this page but it's related to the concrete and pinus yeah I've seen a lot of driveways with brick or I mean that doesn't fall into this why why is it that we don't so improve service that's not what that says I would say I I agree I would say you both are correct that uh um if they they've used uh pavers in a brick style format for for uh driveways or something of the like um that would not fall under the lines of uh surface with concrete or bituminous material yeah and it it isn't necessarily related to this other than I just thought it was odd we don't allow D or we do allow them because there's a lot of houses that have them but sure technically they're not allowed yeah and I will say somewhere in the um related to commercial um uses the the papers were mentioned in there as a as a separate approval item but I didn't I didn't make a note of what number that was on oh I guess I was that but it's not in this context I'm just right but it is mentioned in another another type of use yeah very that it could be approved yeah um would you like to add papers to the concrete in we already have them I have no problem with papers in the driveway but we have another open another ordinance change well this is it no I'm talking about the regular driveway thing yeah and that I'm to wor about this sure um I will say that that could be incorporated into an ordinance Amendment if it were um motion to approve tonight um just to note that um and I guess while we're on the topic of pavers I will say that uh because this language is currently so vague um residents kind of have uh done a workaround or a loophole uh to the language where they would have um travel trailers or things of the like parked in their uh backyards and get a notice that it's on a on their grass and um it can't be located on their grass so they would go out there and place concrete papers underneath the parking area okay and whether that be just the the specific Tire areas where they're located um staff has taken the position that this language is too vague to say that uh concrete pavers doesn't fall underneath this guidelines so okay because it's concrete yes I just wanted to bring that up as well so yep I don't doubt that it's a hard y well and the people who who are who are bringing forth some of these concerns about parking um it's not about the material the vehicles are parked on is that they're an ey sore to their neighborhoods and requiring the surface like making an adjustment to what surface they're on does not address the underlying issue of it's an isore in my neighborhood the issue there is screening we need to have better screening for these things um what they're actually parked on doesn't matter um so I think that was kind of the big takeaway for why the planning at least that was my takeaway from the planning commission's conversation of like this isn't addressing the ultimate need so why do this um so I'd rather I don't care about what surface their parked on because it's just it's ridiculous it's just going to if it's about protecting the environment as soon as it rains it's just going to wash off your concrete into your grass anyway like it's not saving anything um it's going to be like so Mud versus concrete have that's your that's your problem for in your own house right um but the screening isn't is an issue so for me I I don't care about these changes one way or the other what I would like to see is some language about screening being requirement being a requirement of some sort um but no one's like I I haven't done any homework on that I don't know if other cities have that it's like I'm not prepared with language like I would like to add this language in preparation but I agree with you I think that the you know what they're parked on is not not the real issue that anybody's too concerned about except that uh you know today we we seem to require it um and it doesn't seem necessary but the the issue is what's the what's the right number of things to have parked in in your yard is it do we have is there any number that's that's correct is it any of our business is it you know is it one is it five and to me it goes to screening if I can't see it I don't really care right like if I can't see what's back there park if you want seven different junk things fine I don't I can't see it have junked things no but like at a certain point why you have like I mean I got a I'm incriminate myself but I have don't come for me I have a boat next to my garage and it's definitely a working great boat fine I asked my neighbor last night I'm like do you mind that you see it he goes no not at all it's a boat on next to your garage like what kind of screen are you talking about well and I think I mean and that goes to the size and the location right like there's a certain amount of and and that goes to one boat certain big deal but there are people who have like five or six boats and then you start getting into like are they your boats or are they some like does one person have that many boats or are you stying someone else's I hear you there like I don't think you should have five but well that's yeah that's I mean they're not the ordinance says you can't do that yeah right so right maybe yes I I don't doubt that but I mean that that gets at the number I guess okay personally I think well for I mean the thing was broken into less than half an acre and more as I took it less than half an acre was you could have one on the side one in the back provided you can meet the side yard setback which is 5T yeah and then for the above 5 Acres or half an acre it was you you it just both of these took care of the surface nonsense and then you could still have one on the side of the garage and then I don't know I don't think there was a limit on the back but there was not a limit uh yeah um that's correct and I think you said in there somewhere that champet does have any of these that is correct uh the Champlain does not have any limitations related to it just more of uh locations and if you're going to uh have it in that location here's the surfaces that would be approved for that okay um so I think that uh in regards to the sidey yard um whether it's adjacent to a garage or not I think if you um park a boat in your sidey yard adjacent to the garage it's it's got to be on a extension of the driveway or a parking pad or something like that what was what did next to the garage have to do with anything oh it was just to uh really um avoid the POS the placement of trailers and uh boats recreational vehicles on the living side of the house so you're kind of blocking that aesthetic appeal of the the front of the house um whereas you have it adjacent to the side or the garage side um that at least provides that distinction for your house but me not your neighbors correct I see okay I just yeah okay I guess I'm I'm good with how it's written but we can talk about screening I I'm I don't know not sure what that means and I guess on that note as well uh council member van Aston um related to other communities around this area there are no screening requirements uh specifically written out in the zoning ordinances for Residential Properties um basically just the limitation of where it can be parked and what surface it can be on and what number we have to get back into the fence or Orin and I don't think we wanted I haven't opened it yet sounds like fun yeah anybody else yet so the plan but the Planning Commission unanimously voted no yes in January they provided feedback to staff to and uh directed us to proceed um and then we had brought back an amendment to clarify location and surfacing requirements um and at the end of the discussion they felt that it was not going to solve the overall uh visual issue um of them being placed on the property in general so here's my two cents uh the Halfacre thing is is taken care of that's fine personally I don't care if a guy wants to kill his grass and leave it sit there for 10 years that's his business uh I don't need any kind of a surface underneath it um I can see the point if you have two 2 and 1/2 acres I don't know I mean I could see there being a number there where you know is it is it just junk or is it your 35t fif wheel that's sitting back there and is there five of them or four of them or three of them I mean how many fifth wheels or campers does this guy need well it's is it a is it a camper a car it's also lawnmower whatever it's right well there's not too many lawnmowers that sit outside I don't think but whatever um the other the other area here with this is just me and Marty I don't know how we enforce something when when we got our own junkyard right right down the road near backyard well it is getting slowly cleaned up you down about public works yeah I okay noted work in progress he been there for a year and a half but we've been working on it for a year now better than it was last year is it not I don't think so oh it is I can promise you it is was a big deal F thanks G I don't think the burn thing is there anymore are you saying you want to put a number on it or CU I think there should be a do you have you want a number on yours one way huh I'm ing oh egg is in here too yeah but it has no limits even less so I got three bu bars too by the way so nothing should be outside um yeah there can be a limit on it I mean or this is another issue that we're going to have to deal with at some point uh maybe your grandfather what's there I mean moving forward at some point at some point we're going to have to address this thing otherwise we're going to have 10 junk yards but they don't have the acreage I mean that's part of the thing right like we're talking about are you talking about small Lots or large Lots well it's those it's the two and like it's the two two and a half three that's where like like in Thicket Hills right like those those 10 or 15 those are Big Lots are I thought there were some smaller ones than that maybe I'm thinking about that other but anyway what if we're doing this A3 right the A3 district and we're talking about these like small large Lots or large small Lots you want to think but like one and a half two three lots you have a bunch of them that's where like you're kind of yes you have more land than in a residential but you are still kind of more on top of you know like they're are more on top of each other than we are on top of like so yeah you can have what like yes we're neighbors but I can't see anything there's giant tree line between us right because there's screening um I have a giant tree line between me and my next neighbor so um no one required that it's just part of being out there so for me it's that it's not just it's the it's those like less than five acres I I don't think it's just half acre then do whatever the heck you want I think there is some medium between like a half acre and 5 acre where I think we do need to put some sort of limit on it um and then beyond 5 acre is fine then at that point you should probably have enough that you can you know do what you want not do what you want but um but I do I don't think half is like the cut off for at that point we don't care anymore I think there needs to be a middle ground a medium setting the other thing is are we going to do anything about it I mean no um it doesn't mean we should have rules I there was a comment made and I'm just I'm going to address there was a comment made that well it's it's unenforceable that part is uh I don't know if you can go after a person that had that's had something sitting there I mean we tried to do this years ago one man's junk is another man's treasure then that's the way it was Ed in court um if somebody's grandfathered in I don't know if how would your grandfather in are we going to keep a record of everybody's house and how many go online right now and look to see who's got what using Google Maps May mayor members of The Cult we try we try to use historical photos that's what we try to use just the aerial are you going to see that they had a trail this day a trailer sitting there this day John can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe that this section of the ordinance uh falls under the legal non-conforming status um that is otherwise provided um I don't believe that that is the case in this regard so whatever it changes to everybody would have to adhere um to that yeah yeah and hard to enforce is not the same as can't enforce right like the police cannot pull over every single person who speeds that doesn't mean we say you know what then there's no speed limit go whatever speed you want because we can't catch everybody true that's not how we go about things like you go and then you go after the ones who are the worst you go like if you got someone going five over and someone going 15 over you pull the person going 15 over like that's your priority cuz they're putting more like so one person's got three boats and you're like do you really need three boats that's my bedtime by the way everybody um so my question would be is why do you tell me how many boats I can have well at a certain point you're running a business I mean I mean like like you well the question becomes are you any business like do you have do you honestly have 30 boats like 30 yeah we can sit that number at some reasonable number but I don't think two or three is reasonable no I'm not saying like that's where like there is there is a line I think but I think there is a line sure we to serve what purpose why why you know I understand that you know when people have junk pile all over the around their house in front of their house and you know inoperable vehicles and all that stuff that's a you know that that affects the entire neighborhood yeah but if I've got three boats sitting in my back why does anybody else care I don't so how do we distinguish where does that line between you are an isore and you're bringing down property values to I don't care what you have in your backyard like what is that line you know it's kind of weird because when I see these large Lots with boats or something like that I don't look at it as a as a bringing my property values down I look at it as a as a neighborhood that that where people enjoy life I mean and it depends it depends on exactly so who's an isore or what's an isore I guess is really the eye of the person looking at it the eye of the beholder huh it's in the eye of the beholder I was going to say that but that see kind of too many eyes in that so where do we do agree that there is a certain point where a property can have too much stuff in the front and side yard I get especially for large Lots I get and this is this says you can't put any in the front yard right if you do put it in the front yard it's got to be a part of the driveway or on like a the yeah which is fine I'm I'm okay with that I have know how that move it in the back yeah um and I think you get one on the side even with the large Lots but for the most part should be in the back the expectation is it goes in the back yeah um if you would if if that's the direction that you want to proceed with if the side yard wants to if so right now the way the ordinance was drafted um the side yard limitation is only for those properties under a half acre that limits it to one if you'd like to extend that to the larger lots and then let them do as they do in the rear yard um certainly we would take that direction so I thought the large Lots only had one on the side but you're saying it didn't I don't have in front of me mayor C it does have one yeah one so one on the side but in the back is not giving myself the benefit of the one on the side yard and un Limited in the rear and the half acres can have one on the side or one in the back it would be and if provided they could meet that set back should be in the re oh you can have one in the back one in the sides yeah in my guess yeah there's a lot of those the small lots that they they're fully fenced in for them to get something back there is probably not and going back to the set the sidey guard setback limitation at a lot of these R3 lots are 7 and 1 12 feet which they wouldn't be able to do so um it's more of a you've got a wide enough lot you could do this if you would like to that's where I wonder a little bit on on Strictly on the small lot piece of it is that there are going to be I would say the majority of the lots that don't have the setb meet the setback requirements if you part boat or something there and so they're limited to the backyard but they can have one but if they've got that side room then then you can have one there and one in the back and I correct you know I it seems more reasonable to me to say you can have two um you know one two total sure right one in the side one in the back or two in the back if you can't put one on the side but you still it would still be two sure and then I also note for these new developments the majority of them if not all of them require uh an HOA now with these new developments uh they're going to yeah so I mean you can raise the ceiling but you can't lower the floor is kind of the the saying for that so that's a good one yeah okay well um where we at where we at so for less than a half acre you can have two either one on the side one on the back or both in the back mhm to deal with the people who have the side that they can't fit one in there and then for over a half acre one on the side and as many as you want in the back mhm and we don't care what surface is on that's what a currently States yes I'm okay with that you'll think we got the three so you can you can I don't care I don't see it I don't to me it doesn't anything in the backyard doesn't deter value unless you get yeah you know unless it gets drastic yeah it's a the front yard that yeah makes things little less palatable I guess mayor C I'm going to ask one question because I don't know if this is going to pertain anything but in the backyards do you want them organized need an organized or is it just matter how they put them doesn't matter we have a paragraph of ordinates to cover that the only reason I ask is cuz if you say I don't care how they go back there and somebody has 14 bolts in their backyard jammed in there any which way and use boats RVs whatever and we have a neighbor complaining and we go they're in the backyard nothing we can do about it correct you're going to have a resident in here or multiple saying my neighbor's got a junkyard in the backyard and you're going to say nothing we can do about it that's why that's the only reason I said is it need an orderly or is it just whever I'm okay with need an orderly what's wrong with need I would do neat I'm not sure how we Define that yeah I don't I don't know either that's why the current ordinance or the proposed ordinance Amendment does say and uh I think that this is under city code as well Chief Anga related to um licensed and operable meaning they got to be ready to go ready to move and uh they can go on a street legally um licensed operator yeah I like keep that and that includes things like uh tires being flat and uh whatnot so that's in there I think current licensing is an important piece of it that's yeah that's little different this is a I don't know how this even comes into play exactly in this context but you know I get more worried about stuff that's parked on the front and you know some of the situations that have been brought to our attention there's a a home with a driveway facing the street of course and then there'll be a a pole barn of of some kind also facing the street and then more things parked there in front front of it and we're not really talking about that well are you talking about so the pole barn would be kind of adjacent to the house to the house and the but also facing the street and so now you've got things parked here and you've also got that would technically still be the front yard it's the front yard and even if they're I I get what you're what you're saying to if they're in a row along that driveway um even though they're on a driveway there is a a a group of them in one one narrow area out in the front yard um and I don't disagree that this ordinance probably doesn't necessarily address that uh very specific um other than the fact that it would just require them to be on a parking pad or um driveway surface um that's the only clarification that this would provide in that regard and do they still need to be do they still need to be licensed yes currently licens and operable correct and owned by the person who was prop you're if you're doing repair work how operable is something for three or four we in thear I will just to clar I will just clarify as well uh when it comes to looking at these items that are on private property in order to be able to view things that are not viewable from the street we have to get the property owners permission to do that um and they could very well say no that that is not uh something that you can do um so really we can only report on uh items we can see from the street so the nice thing about Minnesota was they require two license plates on the front and the back but on trailers if they're parked backwards we really have a hard time um finding out whether they're licensed or not without property owner permission y to go back to what Zach's point about 14 boats in the backyard on a 2 acre or acre and a half lot if you got 14 boats back there that's your whole backyard and that's going to create an niore mhm who's going to have 14 boats I don't know do you really want another 14 page amendment to cover can we leave that's where we're going with it I you could easily put a number in there four five that takes care of all of that not mine I got a flat bed I got a horse trailer I got the the the tractor I will often times have the snowmobile trailer back there are they neat are they neat and orderly I think so but that's me I just geez I leave people alone I don't get it don't get it sorry no it's okay to the point of it's hard to enforce if you can't see them well if you can't see them then they're probably not as big of a deal right like the ones that we're concerned about are the ones that are the eyesore that are like a blight on their neighbors you can probably see those to like you know what I mean it's like if the issue is well we can't enforce the ones we can't see those aren't the ones that are the issue right it just gets into that gray area of if a trailer is parked backwards and you know that type of thing um but uh just to reiterate reiterate some of the things that I've heard um less than a half acre two whether you have one in the side or one in the back or two in the back yeah we can work on language to make that distinction um allow sidey yards that are larger than that to have one in the side and then Unlimited in the back that's those are the those those are the two items at least I've heard from you want a limit of like eight I mean what's the point of having a limit then oh so that you don't my concern is that we can cut down on some of these illicit storage businesses I then they'll come in and get a permit which is fine then they should come in and get a permit and pay the like pay the fee to have a business like I don't mind that you run a business but then go through them follow the rules it's the illicit businesses that don't want to pay the rules and have these businesses but like they just want the profit and none of the consequences or responsibilities of running a business cuz you should also have insurance if you're storing other people's things on your property so like that's that's for mein like the business ordinance that we check their insurance well jeez but I'm saying there is a point where like 10 like once you go past 10 I have some serious questions about why you need that many fully operational Road 10 sure here we are I come up with rules for you know ultimately what we're trying to do is get people to clean up their yards and that was the I don't know how we're doing that I don't okay okay do you have a better do you have a suggestion then on how to clean up your yard no I don't but I don't know that it's moving stuff out of the fronts a big St I guess well I think that's you know that's something we we're not addressing here really but we're you know I think that would help in a real way I think that personally I think that if people have stuff in their yards they ought to screen it but I don't know that we need to legislate that fair council member fashion do would you be interested in seeing a limitation of recreational vehicles and trailers um from being parked in the front yard regardless of the surfacing um and limit that area to motor vehicles and maybe one of such vehicle or something like that is that something that because this uh ordinance Amendment also clarifies what is a motor vehicle what's a trailer and what's a recreational vehicle so that distinction is there I think that would help I think that if we had a limit on what's in front I think that that helps in some of these situations too late the RVs is that what you mean RV limit or what what limit well or trailer the trailer just unit in general so what if I mean a lot of these these especially the under Halfacre they so you're okay with no limit you're okay no limit you're okay no limit right mhm all right we're there Stephanie doesn't count apparently it doesn't matter why are you so quiet you want to talk I'm trying not to incriminate myself how you gotu done I got three and I have point three something of an acre but my neighbor next door doesn't care they're night neatly put I have a boat an off-road vehicle and my daughter's car so that we both can back in and out of the driveway otherwise we can't back in and out of our garage there's on a room see and that's those are the kind of edge cases that we always whack because we have these blanket things and just too much I mean I could definitely move two or one of them to the back and she'll be have a have a license in a month here or what have you but you might wreck it so Dennis no more you're cut off no more um no I guess I don't I don't care about the Sur the limit is trailers and RVs the vehicle won't count but I can't why park it in my sidey yard right right Vehicles recreational vehicles and trailers doesn't count Vehicles yeah it does Vehicles recreational vehicles and trailers I don't want you three just make a motion and get this over with oh are we done cuz still lot of compli I am you're but I would like to be in compli and so I feel like the only thing this really does is help like people like me who are not following current or or Dennis over here with the 16 Vehicles today but he's over the half acre true today you pretend I wasn't here tonight what is what is the ru is one right and it's got to be on a pad for for a small lot I don't believe that there is a a limit oh there's no limit but it's but it does have to be on a pad uh no the way that it's written it just has to be on a concrete or bituminous material or Surface so yeah it's got to be on something so this would this would required to be a driveway or parking pad in the front um and just to clarify on the vehicles the motor vehicles are only allowed in the front yard on a driveway or parking pad there is no if it doesn't call out what is permitted in certain yards it's not permitted um move the boat to the back I'm not really worried all right you want to just to say no to all of this and revisit it or no okay I don't I I think that out of this we are well I think that the existing ordinances and may I'm a little confused now with with what you said last because this came up originally when um there was a complaint about a residence resident that had I think three boats in the backyard and it's a and a smaller lot and they weren't on an improved service surface and I thought it was both of those things that were the problem it was not the number it was just it was just the surface but now we're putting a number on it well now you're taking away the surface but I think the reason was cuz the surface was the only thing that that person could get got like the person who complained was unhappy about the vehicles but there is nothing in the ordinance about loc like about anything else the only thing in the ordinance that the person could complain about was the surface cuz I've talked to the person who did the complaint it's like I didn't care about the surface I cared about the vehicles but I couldn't there was no mechanism to complain about anything other than the surface hence the complaint was about the surface but the person doing the complaining didn't actually care about the surface it was the number of vehicles and that it looked like a junkyard next to their house or in their neighborhood which is how we got here and maybe I did not articulate what he maybe that was not what the intent was but that was my takeaway from our conversation I have a question so I don't think there's a consensus but I'm going to try to interpret it there is a consensus 3 to two Okay is there a consensus to prohibit trailers and boats in the front yard totally totally even on the driveway even on the driveway I don't think so because like I said a lot of these small Lots they got a fence backyard where else is it going to go sure okay they could would you entertain establishing a limit in that regard front yard you already have it not currently not on the actually no you don't I like it the way you got it I mean one on the side one in the backyard that's good enough well if you want to have a boat in the front yard so be it you're taking up a parking spot can you clarify front yard means the driveway right we're not talking it includes all the yard space in front at the building line into the you draw line across the front of the building towards the street all the way from Edge so you could just I could park my boat in the front corner of my front yard no there's no parking in the front yard not currently that's what I'm saying is like if you allowed parking in the front yard that would be allowed right no well if you allowed it in the front yard it would be so just on the driveway this here is I'm tired the proposed language Vehicles recreational vehicles and trailers may be parked in the front yard provided it is parked on an improved surface such as I'm sorry that is this one here vehicles recreational Vehicles trailer shall be permitted in front and side yards on a driveway or parking pad constructed of concrete or bituminous material okay and it's s like there was consensus to have on the second two bullet points there the sidey yard or the rear doesn't matter which one you can have a Max of two period that's what the consensus was that I heard from the council related to doesn't matter if one on the side one on the back two in the back doesn't matter just you can only have two total and then greater than a half acre you limit the sidey yard to one which is already in yes and the only thing difference on the more than Halfacre is there the one on the side yard and there in the back there is no limit and Sarah you're saying you would like a limit in the back or no I'm sorry I can get I I would get behind a limit but it's not a deal breaker for me like if someone else was like I think we should have a limit I would support that position but I also am okay with that the limit so I I guess the surprise for me was I I was in the impression that we did have on the small Lots uh a limit and you're saying we didn't no this is the only language that addresses parking areas and uh and driveways how about if you change the uh the size of the lot if you have a limit on uh anything over a half to three Acres there's a limit of five or four give me a number anything over 3 acres do what you want what are you on Dennis I don't know why we care s that I'm just trying to uh get see another paragraph of ordinance if you guys don't want to make a motion to approve it I mean you already got approved approval so well I think we're running into some other issues um like I said the we're adding a limit to the small Lots we are and I didn't realize that we I didn't either realize that we were are you trying to fit Stephanie into this deal well it it's not just her I get that so deny the whole thing just get it over with well I isn't that I would at least like to get rid of the perious surface thing the tus and the for the yeah that's what we're doing here on this in one choke of it yeah y i maybe I mean do we do that in the table rest or I don't know you don't table you just add that add that deal in there and change that and do it otherwise you got nothing well to that end I think the plan commission was right we're not we're not fixing the actual concern R the impropriate surface thing I think I think we are I think that's an unnecessary requirement yeah I think the nuisance storage of stuff on people's property we're not really fixing not really okay do we just so pull the the oh where do you want me to go back up to the to the discussion on what the new requirements are Yeah so basically we would strike the second or the third and fourth bullets down and just at least get the whole concrete pinous material out of there i' be fine with that step I think yeah I think that would be a useful change to this I I I don't think there's a formula that really does much for us in terms of limit numbers on on any of these yards people shouldn't store junk in their yard and I I don't know how we address that but just cuz you say that that's not going to stop it well what would stop it a number really you you think setting a number that is is what number do you want to set then for what size property three acres and down go five I mean is five not enough I don't know that's a lot it's it's a lot lot that's a lot of units on a under three acre lot yeah that means you got five in the backyard and one on the one on the side plus your two cars or whatever cars you got you got seven or eight vehicles or or units not Vehicles right well I at a minimum want to get rid of the what you got to put on a pad so from the actual amend from the actual code that's um subsection two design construction and maintenance surface and drainage because that's not actually one of the changes we're voting on that wasn't one of the proposal proposed changes had nothing to do with taking that off right I'm looking at what you uh gave to us to vote on right the draft um ordinance M and the new because there's the strikethrough language and the underline the underline is new I do like the definition of a motor vehicle in a trailer like having a definition there is helpful I like adding that um and the actual moot Amendment or thing didn't didn't change anything about off street parking being on the various surfaces like that didn't change um so it cuz it's still there so it did change and the way that the the standard language right now is that all parking areas regardless locations have to be on a concrete or bituminous material okay where this makes a distinction that if it's in the front yard it's got to be on a hard surface okay um and there can be language in there mayor fiser uh added to say or another material approved by City staff and that may be a PA driveway um to to provide that clarification that can certainly be put in there um but uh it does create that separation of what can be parked where and on what okay and there's always the option to for me to gather my notes and bring this back to you in March which I'm I certainly be willing to do it I I think at least at this point we can it seems like everybody's INR the material can be removed that where you park it or what you park it on doesn't matter in the front yard including are you trying to get a 5 saying here no oh okay you're just saying to remove it from the the backyard yeah and side in the side we can certainly yeah we can certainly do that you you mean just pair it down the ordinance Amendment pair it down to only address that at this point yes that's what I'm thinking because here we are and we're how many minutes into this thing around and around I think 45 nobody's coming so 45 what do you guys I think you're going to get a push back on that so if you have from anyone that's buying a $700,000 house and then has a parking lot next to it on the grass so the current complaint paint would still remain we're just making it so that they can have yep the three plus trailers in the backyard so there now is just nothing to complain about okay right sorry removing the we need two or do you want a concrete pad cuz I do not want a concrete pad I think that's silly I think we should table this and think about what are goals are and how we accomplish those goals all right I think we're all too tired no one's making good choices right now that's a good idea we'll table it so we can have another 45 minute discussion later but hopefully not after like five hours of other discussions so I'll make a motion that we amend the language regarding the what kind of surface you're parking um your license vehicles on U scratch the rest because we need a lot more discussion now that I don't want this to be over on this but we're not going to solve it tonight so you're tabling it then no no no I made a motion to amend the language around the just the surface just the surface inside and rear yards specifically is what you're referring to sure to not require surface or to require essentially yes not requ so can you go back to the first slide there you go right there so essentially what you're striking is the yellow part yes yes so that they could park it on the grass wherever they' like to I think that staff at least from my point of view we would at least want to make the recommendation that we do provide that distinction between a front yard and then the side and the rear um so that language will still to a certain extent it will be in there and um we could certainly work on that and send you a revised ordinance based on that in the weekly update or whatever it may be to show you what what the language came out to be so that's the motion yep okay wait a second I will second anyway more discussion I'm going to vote no cuz I just want to table it and do the whole thing right sorry I might be the only no but that's okay I'm happy to be that person okay we got a motion a second me any more discussion all those in favor say I I I all those against say no no no all right fails right I warned you all right on item oh oh here's another phone I'm I'm going to make an motion we just scratch this whole thing to deny the amendment yes and stick well the current one says that nothing can we're on the next one wait a minute that's the current law the current law we did we talked about this I don't know what happened did talk but okay all right I'll go back to my deal that I made I don't know 6 months ago do you want is there need to be another motion on the floor for that item and or we just going to say fail I make a motion I know okay and bring it back at the next meeting or we we can schedule it for another okay it failed failed for majority it failed for like a majority yeah yeah but from a staff Direction I think there's more work to be done there that's why I'm trying to figure out what yeah okay sounds good but I think in my direct my personal direction would be like we know that there is an issue how do we solve the issue without making the first half in a way that can actually be enforced but also isn't going to punish like and maybe there isn't an answer but like let's look at what other cities I know we've looked at a few cities but like maybe that's maybe that's the answer um call the league of Minnesota cities other places have had to deal with this so um 10 cities are going to have 10 different y possibly but maybe we can find one we like and we can copy and paste all right it all on this next deal we talked about this for sure 6 months ago and I suggested that we have one sign in each Direction north south east west meaning they can have two signs on any intersection if we scratch the whole deal and leave it as no signs in the right away we're going back to the same argument that same discussion all what we have today yeah the ordinances no signs in the RightWay that's what that's so if we do nothing that's what we have we just chose not to enforce it is that was that's what we do chose to stop enforcing it yep the Planning Commission recommended that that prohibition of uh signs in the right of way be stricken from the ordinance altogether so there isn't a there isn't specific language that calls it out okay I'm just trying to avoid the whole Heritage signs are okay city signs are not whatever cuz we went down we went around and around with that thing if we're going to not enforce it I'm fine leave it the way it is one of the questions one of the questions that came up was about liability if there were a car accident that someone could argue is because of all all the signs in the right of way and they couldn't see is the city liable no no way because then you'd have any accident every city would be eliable for that accident in some way it was a question that came up a Planning Commission and there wasn't a response there wasn't an answer in the moment that a kid jumped out from the sign and got run over I don't think so okay defer to Le Council mayor members of the council no this is why you're here to answer this question question well at least I'm earning my keep tonight um may members of the council know the the this issue of of having an ordinance that bans signs placed in the right of way um but then not enforcing it is is kind of a separate question from liability it doesn't create a liability um I mean it kind of is um kind of a or practice to have an ordinance on the books and act and choose specifically to not enforce it um and all that also you know opens up the possibility of future arguments of selective enforcement that way if you ever did try to enforce it then that person would say well you know you've not been enforcing this since 6 months ago whenever the council decided to to not do that um you know I mean so there are other issues but specifically liability in in a car accident or for other injuries because of um an impeded view is is is not um is not something that would result from leaving the ordinance as is okay thank you but Planning Commission said just to strike the language so that it was open not specifically called out correct okay would that leave less free than if a particular business was being an utter nuisance to then remove nuisance signs is there a language in there about nuisance signs like you take one you got to take them all you can separate commercial from non-commercial commercial is not protected by the same rights as non-commercial you cannot favor commercial over non-commercial that's what the rule says you can't favor commercial it doesn't say you can't favor non-commercial over commercial well there there are cases where um ordinances have been um held invalid let make sure I'm not to say this right it is late in the evening um where ordinances have been have not been invalidated because they treated the commercial and non-commercial the same um but you know and this is this kind of gets to what was in the the memo that that that I provided um with all the footnotes um I always to give you all lots of footnotes with case citations um you know so when it come you just it it sign ordinances have to be enforced in terms of time place and manner so and then the distinction between um whether they whether a regulation is content based or not or content neutral it all comes down to the level of scrutiny so you know it it when the commercial versus non-commercial it's just a difference in the the level of of scrutiny that the that the that a court would apply to it so um usually it's easier to just have a ban on signs in the right of way because that's that's the place and it doesn't matter who it is what it says how big it is how small it is it just can't be there so that is a is a you know from an enforceability standpoint much clearer and then they put them up Friday anyways I don't know is there so we proposing to accept the change language where they strike out any sign with in the public right away is removed that right yes that basically removed it stricken that from the prohibited signs section of the ordinance um not specifically calling that out um and then there was language related to off- premise signs where um if someone wanted to get a temporary sign um or a sign that doesn't require permit based on what is uh orderly and they obtain permission from the property owner they can do that um so it gives that flexibility for seasonal businesses to maybe contact that property on the corner of a street or something like that to work with them to place a sign and they also upped the um the the the height for the monument signs I believe to 16 ft from 8 ft yeah and that was discussed both at the Planning Commission and city council level with the Quick Trip sign um and they have since provided an application that uh reflects this change so on their good graces and on your good graces they uh agreed to make that change from a pylon sign I make a motion to approve the updated um sign ordinance with the change as written um do I need to say them all or just just as as as recommended by the Planning Commission thank you as recommended by the Planning Commission call second any more discussion all in favor say I I oppos say no motion carries 5 to zero all right on to item P make a motion we uh table this and come back and do it another day go ahead it sorry that all those in favor I Dennis gets Dennis I'm leading you into this okay we got a motion in a second any discussion oh wait tabling I don't think you tabling yep all those in favor say I I all those suppos say no all right it uh it's tabled and with that if there's no objections we'll be adjourned or adjourned e e