for e all right nice I will call to order a regular meeting of Dayton city council December 10th stand for the pledge to the plag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liy and justice for all all right I need a motion a second for the agenda make a motion I'll second and then discussion yep I'd have one item mayor and Council I'd like to add one item item i1 to the consent agenda item the approval of the community event specialist position to Elizabeth Decker thank you very much um and you wanted that in consent well that would be fantastic we can any other changes all this in favor say I I El isos say no consent is passed 5 to Zer we'll move on to consent I need a motion in a second a motion second okay discussion anybody else go ahead fire away sure um got a question on Item B and it's on page 10 of our packet and my question it's a bill from inside outside architecture and relating to the irrigation project and I'm wondering if we're we were doing doing that on a flat fee basis or an hourly basis I don't don't remember how we the 19,000 was for some consultancy work that we had done uh by uh the irrigation designers and we had to get some specialist people into design the irrigation to make sure that they were scale properly for the parks and you know had the correct amount of heads and we could work out what the um well pressure was that we needed for those so we need needed to go out to get some specialist help on that part of the project and that was run through inside outside architecture yeah they organized it and he didn't add a markup on to to that that's just a straight fee from the consultant okay thank you we also had a question on uh item H and that's page 50 of our packet I think that was that showing consent you um let just take a second here [Applause] I'll over back a couple of times um so this is related to uh stantech fees for 2025 and my question was we we're moving from 4,300 to 4600 a month I know there's an increase across the board on hourly rates this one looked higher so I'm wondering if there's more hours uh figured into that rate or if that's just strictly price increase for the retainer fee yes um to be honest it was just done to an even hundred doll but that's that's the only reason it doesn't match the four and a quarter that's a monthly fee for all the that one that one's more like 7% was it um yeah I thought it was rounded I thought it was rounded up to the next 100 but maybe that should have been 40 4500 so it's the same number of hours it's just with the increase that's kind of going across the board there yeah I mean the hours fluctuate tremendously it's a um we we the the intent of the retainer is so that staff or Council doesn't feel uncomfortable that I'm sitting here so you're not paying any additional money for me to be at meetings so it's a flat fee for all of the meeting attendance and general Communications it should be 4500 I can 4500 4500 okay thank you um that was all I had on concern anybody else I have V Jason we can make that correction on that agreement correct yeah if you want to just press it out on the one we signed I just want to make sure what the council's approving there they know yep yep oh I did have one it's not a question but an Ask um I think in the past we it's been included that a a document that shows what rate we're paying for what level of Staff um engineer versus principal and so on and I'm wondering if we can get that at some point oh yeah we can so that admittedly that was wink um that we actually put the job titles in there and now um the way Stan Tech does it as just a billing level we do have an internal one that I can share um on how those correspond there's some overlapping but the the billing levels and the titles um kind of fit together if that'd be helpful I can certainly pass that along yeah I'd appreciate that sure thank you I got one question uh Paul you've got a couple squads you did some work on because there must be added equipment that you're adding on the squad or something removing on some and adding on some but they're we're reusing as much of the old okay that's on three vehicles I think it was yep okay you good how is it yeah I'm fine anybody else okay um all those in favor of consent say I I all those opposed say say no here is 5 to zero on to open Forum do I have anybody here for open Forum come on up limited to 3 minutes for non-agenda items thank you state your name and address Larry Jacobson at 13571 141st Avenue North and Dayton okay and I'm here because I got a notice from the city of non compliance to I think a zoning ordinance and I I brought extra copies would you all like one no sure pass it off I got seven sure we always get stuff at the last minute we good shot thank appreciate I do it so often thank you thank you excuse me okay well uh my wife and I lived in Champlin for 34 years and uh we decided to make a change move into a home that we can enjoy our retirement in and we didn't move far we moved to to Dayton and we moved in on uh May May 21st of this year and the new house it's it's kind of a mix of old and new there's some neighbors next door with an older house and one across the street street so it's it's kind of got I don't know a new a new house feel with uh older type of neighborhood so anyway this this notice I got in the mail yesterday uh said I was out of compliance cuz I had Boat Trailers in my backyard and uh basically it says in the city code all parking areas shall be surfaced with concrete or mum bituminous material so us to be D free and the correction notice said remove trailers from the glass grass area and park on a concrete or binous Surface so does that mean I need to rip up my grass and put down asphalt or concrete to park my boat trailer I got I got three Boat Trailers in a RV pop-up RV right now and when I moved to Dayton well before we moved I checked out cities Dayton and maple Gro and Rogers see if there's any parking restrictions there's no parking restrictions in any of those cities for putting a boat trailer in your backyard now I see a backyard as a multi-purpose thing as a you can put a swimming pool you put trampoline you can put uh you know Jungle Gym kit set for the kids you know playground equipment and put chicken coops you know things like that so it's a multi-purpose thing I also see it as vehicle storage or trailer storage for the off season where I come to disagree with the term parking area is that parking area should be used every day like at the front of the house I have a I have a parking area in the front of the house for my cars but I don't drive in the backyard only when they need to store things and I think I think a bunch of of us have trailers and things that we put in the backyard and it's not I mean I won't pull my trailers out till next May so I this is where I I I just am confused about putting a parking lot in my backyard is that something that's required and if not you know shouldn't everybody be doing that because there's a lot of trailers parked in backyards in Dayton any questions or comments there's no parking on the D okay parking on the so does that mean anything with wheels how do we Define I'm just curious how do we Define what's part being parked what is being parked yep so you cannot have a vehicle parked on the grass these aren't Vehicles these are boats uh well it's a licensed vehicle still so so normally the way these work is we will hear what you have to say and then we'll pass it on to staff my guess is that we will um talk about this soon I think we need well I I have a compliance as you can see by December the dates here November 22nd is when this was written M and it said uh I have December 23rd down here correct the zoning Court ordinance violations at December 23rd If you look in the back sheet you see the postmark this is the original this is the envelope that came yesterday MH and you see the the the meter is dated November 22nd M however post the cancelling Mark is December 7th which was last Saturday so that's two weeks from the time this was written to the time you even hit the mail so what's what's my recourse as far as being in compliance with within that time frame I mean it's something you want to look at later is it something that we can can we put off that hard date when do we normally go ahead well three so there's kind of two different issues specific to your case I me what you can do is ask for an ex extension with with Hayden and we'll work with you on that the larger conversation is is it appropriate to consider an ordinance Amendment you um yes we don't allow parking on the grass sounds like we have to defy terms really they're all over Dayton yep they are all over Dayton I I don't disagree with I know so did we give out a couple hundred of these last week or that was something I looked into when I we give out a couple hundred of them last week several is it is it more than 100 no is it oh I mean are there more than 100 cars parked on the grass I'm I'm sure I'm sure there are I mean not to get into the semantic moving forward I would just suggest you yeah I see if you can get an extension and how would I do that contact John or with you guys yeah and then we will look at it can we can we look at it then can we schedule it for a a future I I suspect city council meeting or I suspect we will January this is the only one in Jan in December right January there's one more but it's usually just to make sure that we get the bills paid so I just want to note for the council's understanding that we process violation notices on a complaint-based only I was going to say ask that really the uh the way that we go about it is that we receive a violation through email or phone and then we follow up that way um it's not uh we don't go out and investigate uh for violations well I I brought my trailers in in October and then I think in November they probably got the uh complaint and the what was the original complaint you remember uh just rather the parking on the grass and then uh there was a question of whether it was on the property itself I think that was the main question was whether it was on off the property was on the RightWay the back of my Lodge is on North s Lake Road that's a that's a very wide that's a 50 foot wide uh easement on my side so that was I think that was the original question is is this is this are these vehicles are they on the easement that's that's what the red flag was wow is that where they are huh is that where they are they're on my property okay but my property is just North of North Diamond Lake Road they may or may not be on easement is what you say they may or may not be on easement is what you're saying well they're on the ement right so how long have an extension since we're talking about at least January here I think if the council is uh looking for staff to propose an ordinance to allow for trailer parking on grass and Residential Properties I think that we can work through that um while the violation is outstanding a consensus of that yeah I think we'll have to discuss it first but yeah my question for you Mr salal is where does it say that you can't park in the grass in any of uh there should be a a code reference could you could you reference could you send that to me it's on your letter it's city code 1000 1.19 yeah yep so if you pull up the city code you'll find it in there well I found it but it doesn't say that you're not supposed to park it says you have to park on surfaces that are concrete or pinous mean you can't park on anything else that's not clear in this language I've got I've got the whole paragraph right here I printed out okay I'm just going from what it says right here Y is this something that merits further discussion than not right now yeah I understand that y yeah I suspect we're going to have to yeah we'll probably so there we would look forther to be no enforcement on this until we've had a chance to take a look at their ordinance because if everybody got a letter well it's not everyone it's everyone whose neighbors complained so that's a letter though you'd have a lot of angry homeowners here yep because they've been they probably do it for years well it's clear our you know our ordinance doesn't match reality um if you take a drive around y you also have to remember Council mayor council you have to remember that this is not we don't actively go on investig it's 100% complaint basis so when we say that the code ordinance isn't working well it's it's working when there's a complaint basis but we are actively going out and find I'm just saying it's not clear I looked at this stuff before I moved here sure and I didn't see any any indication that you can't park on the grass sure it's probably buried in some sort of um zoning I'd like to see it yep all right thank that's all that's it doesn't say grass no it just says you have to park on a hard surface well I brought what what about pavers I bought these 16inch papers they're 16 in by 16 in I I would recommend that you find a time to talk with John and Aiden at a later time and then they can help you through that yep very good thank [Music] you all right you you next oh sure come on up again name and address that uh Lee hulquist and 11471 Fir Brook Lane uh that's it uh I just want to make you all aware that I'm still pumping water like crazy the construction started to the west of my house again and my sump pump is running a lot I'm I'm sumping out a lot more water than I'm using and I know you guys are getting ready to to approve some big projects out here some construction but you need to make sure there's adquate drainage and not just a storm sewer to pump my Sump water into but you need to divert the water that's coming into my property and I I mean I got issues with the garbage it's flying in my yard down stuff too but the water is a big thing you know it I shouldn't be sumping water in December the ground is frozen it just shouldn't be happening um right now I'm pumping about every 11 minutes that my Sump is emptying and it just the water's coming from someplace and it's it wasn't there when I moved in and I've had like everybody else it's I I my sun pump runs in the spring after heavy rain but it shouldn't be running continuously and it's been running for about three and a half years now so I just want to make you aware of it as you get ready to approve these projects because it's something you can be on the hook for uh divers water diversion is one of the things it's a big deal to residents here and stuff and the developers you know about it and you should be taking action or not approving something without knowing where that water's coming from and going to so that's all I got and I'll probably see you next well Thursday I guess I'll see some of you thanks thanks anybody else anybody online so we have quite a few people online if any of you are here for open form or would like to speak go ahead and use the raise your hand function nobody all right move on to staff consult Council update Zach yes mayor members of council we have our yearend review event that happens next Wednesday the 18th you should have received a notification in your email boxes City staff is looking to have the event a little longer than normal um we tried to get a hold of some Caterers this year based on some um say we don't have enough staff to try to plan all this stuff going on and try to figure things out and we need some additional time to do some activities and we'd like to close City Hall at 12:30 we were looking to have it instead of at the activity center because we couldn't find any Caterers we'd like to have it at Sundance entertainment in town here in the afternoon so we'd like to close City Hall at 12:30 our plan was to have it at 12:30 to 3:30 but to be honest with you when they come back at 3:30 there's only an hour really left of the day so it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me so um not trying to close City Hall more than we need to but again trying to ask to close City Hall at 12:30 for that to happen I'm fine with it it's ccil okay with that I'm fine with it yeah okay okay sound good close C thank you very much F Amy um we just need to reschedule the next city council meeting um so just wondering what works for everyone uh it will be a short meeting everything on the consent agenda there will be additional items other than just payment of claims but still shorter items you want host morning or the same time likely going to be still a short meeting so you going to do the 23rd um in the afternoon or the morning we can do the 26 in the afternoon or the morning we can do the following week I can do 23rd in the morning yeah you normally do 7: a.m. time by me is it 7: a.m. 8:00 a.m. whatever time yeah time do you guys get here I can do eight I before eight because I don't have child you want before eight I'd have to be a report which is fine I can be a report if you need to eight works for me just eight work for anybody we got have to have at least three that's all I got sure did you say eight I can make it by eight I can do eight okay okay sounds good so 23rd and eight 23rd and eight yeah thank you very much that's all I had thank you morning uh mayor and Council just a couple of updates uh the well for Rehab um trout uh building uh a scaffolding so they can get in through the roof um that's they're building up at the moment with the cold weather coming in they should be putting that around the roof Inlet um at the we uh towards the end of the week and then starting with the pumping out of the uh material at the bottom of the well next week that's the plan currently um all Public Work Shop cleanup uh the fuel tanks and waste oil tank were removed last week um we're waiting to get an EPA ID number for the lab packed U drums that are sealed and uh tight now so uh the Assumption was that the city had one but we've never done this before so we don't have one so we've applied for one I'm not sure how long that process will take but I don't think uh it should take too long and everything's sealed so we're not going to leak anything as well um ice rinks have been flooded um we seem to be making uh some good ice at the moment which is you know better than we have had the last two years we've actually got some ice on the ground now might be open for Christmas so that's the plan um we'll have them up and run in as soon as possible so awesome the next uh few days is going to help us which rinks are being flooded uh the one back here um on uh just at the end of the parking lot there and the one over at Sundance uh uh Woods that's the two that we're concentrating on this year the rivers B Park we don't do anymore no that's that um is a real problem there and last time we we've had uh probably one year that we were successful with that um everything just went perfectly we tried putting uh Pol uh plastic she uh sheeting down um but the it's just the way the thing's graded it leaks out into the parking lot and then we've got a big skate rink in the parking lot nothing on the B Diamond there so without a lot of regrading that's a lot of work in there je good evening Mayors and members of council nothing specific of the fire department but I want to thank all the council members and All City staff that uh assisted with uh the Holly Dayton um I know Daniel started it and then uh I kind of picked up the chair that first year and the second year so we had an outstanding turnout so thanks to all the staff that participate and look forward to next year evening mayor members of council just let you know we'll be collecting uh toys up until Friday morning um and sending um somebody down to car 11 for toys for toats Drive um that will be on Friday night um Shop with a cop we're doing December 12th over at Target Rogers um we have three families that have been selected and I believe six kids total so it's a good turnout and then uh we'll do coats up until December 19th um and then we'll be doing the um drop off to some for the Cs and then I just want to say thank you to council member charest and council member Henderson um for all their hard work and dedication to the city as they exit um from the council seats um greatly appreciate all the support thank you Paul thank you he thank you so we uh do have a vacancy on the Planning Commission so so this has been uh noticed um we you know if anyone were happy to accept uh applications through I believe it's Monday January 6 and then this would go to the Council on January 14th uh we've had three applicants so far when's that close January 6 intention is to keep it open for about a month also uh in I think it was October the council had a special meeting on States manufacturing um that is kind of are moving forward through deed and we're very close to getting a a contract written so expecting that'll be approved within the next week or two um then would require signatures from the mayor and City administrator that's good news Jason nothing here you have anything you I'll just mention mayor members of the council that um you may already know this but just to be official the uh closing um on the city acquisition of the property on 117th Avenue from Diane Baxter closed on Friday morning so congratulations you now own that parcel it's always a fun day when the closer says done done no more papers to sign well it's a fun day when you're a real estate nerd like me can we park stuff over there yeah not there's no improved surface over there uh I don't really have anything other than uh you to Travis and mat it's been a pleasure thank you uh whether or not I'll be here in the 23rd I can't say might be fici Travis uh you know I have tried to have something planned out for this but uh ultimately I just it's it couldn't come too so but I do appreciate uh all the time that everybody has spent with me uh as I sat in this role and all the all the questions that have been answered and and all the Insight that every every body's given me it's been a huge learning curve over the last four years and I don't take any of it for granted so I want to just appreciate all the staff time that's been committed to you know my needs and and things of that nature for for not only who I represent but what we also do here at the at the city level too so I appreciate everything so uh just not in the seat but uh I'll still be a part of the city doing other things very well so thank you all for for everything so all right thank you both go ahead yeah I just Echo that I appreciate um working with you guys as well um the the different perspectives I think it's it's been ultimately good for us to see things from several angles and hopefully that helps us get to better conclusions so I appreciate the time that you guys have put toward this and uh best of luck to you going forward thank you yeah uh I have one more meeting so to this just thank you to everyone for the time um they've spent with me to help get caught up what's going on how the City Works how to get things done I really appreciate that um and then thank you to all of you up here as well for putting up with my multiple questions as I try to figure this out and work through it together so thank you for that Adam Jay of council I'm going to preface that I've been fighting over a cold so I'm going to have lots of water and clean and my nose is extremely red so you lucky I have a voice today that's great my no that's scooting away from me as we done makes sense y all right so um do want to reminder that this is a truth and Taxation meeting um this is a public hearing so I'll have to open the public hearing after the um presentation if Council has any questions about the presentation please stop me as we go along I'll do my best to answer them as we go along just because it's hard to go back and understand what spot at so truth and Taxation meeting um this is just a general scenario of how the um budget goes uh there's a lot of previous meetings to this but essentially the main pull Point items are the preliminary budget was approved on September 10th that was submitted to the county by September 30th by their deadline um tonight is December 10th which is the um approval of the final Levy in the budget after this public hearing comment and we will certify the final Levy that I can't spell to henan County on December 30th which will be the end of the month legislative impacts there is not a whole lot of them this year but I do want to make sure that everyone's aware of them in 2026 they'll be a paid f medical Lea program that is being implemented that was technically approved in 2023 but I left it on here because they've identified that it's an additional 88% payroll tax that will be applied to all employers and employees um that will be for every individual company and um City within the state so um that'll be a paid fly Medical Leave Act and I'm sure we'll have more information as that comes along um and the earned safe and sick leave there was an adjustment this year in the 2024 legislative session that says paid on call Firefighters and volunteers ambulance attendants are now exempt from earning ESS time because it is not scheduled time it's just time spent on the job and it's it's considered volunteer so not a whole lot of updates but neither was the 2024 legislative session so for reference just as we move forward um I've always provided these 1% tax rate what does that mean for individuals as a homeowner if a 1% tax rate changes either up or down it's roughly $53 a year on the average home of 525 Grand it's more if your home is more and it's less if your home is less in a valuation in comparison that 1% tax rate for an individual or $53 a year equates to $225,500 of tax revenue for the city um and then uh within that 1% tax rate there's tax levy changes every 1% of tax levy increased is approximately $79,000 so essentially um it's about every 3% of tax levy change equals 1% of tax tax rate it's not perfect but it's pretty close um CPI increased 2.8% from 23 to 24 in comparison so September which I was very surprised at is at 2 Monon CPI of 0.0% so things have started to slow down which is good for us overall and it's good for everybody because you see it at home too with your inflationary costs with groceries and everything else um taxers received by the city do not change for the entire year no matter how much building activity that occurs in that year that is a common misconception that most um residents do think is that the city is collecting more dollars every time a new home goes in that is not the case and not correct h of property taxes get calculated I added this last year and I think it was pretty good and understood um I like to add it again just because it's very good for all individuals to know is how do they how does the property tax number get to be um how it's determined is we determined all the expenditures across all of the funds whether that's operating one which is considered the general fund and the debt and the capital funds then we subtract out all the revenue sources so we get some grants we get some State AIDS we get um franchise fees we get um interest Revenue there's a myriad of items that we get for other revenues those are subtracted out from the expenditures and then there's a negative number whatever that negative number is is how the levy is determined um so it is kind of the backend number between after all is said and done the levy is just figured out at the end um it's not a set number so the levy divided by the tax capacity in the city equals your tax rate take your assessed value of your home which is roughly 1% of your value uh it could be a little higher if your valuation of your home is higher but I think that starts at $500,000 is where that 1% is at and then it's 1.25% for every dollar past 500,000 times the rate to get the taxes that you will pay and taxes minus the credits minus the refunds equals your net tax and that's how many property taxes you will pay for the year so that's kind of how it works in general um it's not a perfect scenario by any means but it is pretty close and the Tex capacity numbers changes with fiscal disparities which we learned about last meeting and there m many other things that go into the calculation that but essentially this is the bare minimum of how it works the home owner pays the property taxes they're divided up by the county and then the city receives our property tax settlement twice a year we are roughly a third of the taxes so if you look at your total tax bill take about a third of it give or take depending on what school district you're in that's about what we as the city and again that is different depending on what school district you're in um but in general it's a about it's pretty close 20125 Levy compared to what 2024 was um we are looking at 11.24% which was decided on the by the council at the last meeting after much discussion um which I do appreciate thank you very much um there was a $425,000 reduction from the preliminary Levy that everyone would have seen on their property taxes to what you are seeing on the screen today so the preliminary Levy that was set on property tax statements was 16.63% um Cy tax levy at this moment 11.24 so the difference between those is roughly 5 and a half% and so when I mentioned earlier a 3% change uh every 3% of tax levy equals 1% tax rate tax rate roughly dropped 2% because of those changes which is about roughly what it came out to be for your tax rate so our tax rate ended up being 38 point something I think it's 38.5 or something like that on the preliminary Levy and and the final Levy it's 3 sorry it's 37.5 and the preliminary Levy 35.4 41 on the final so again it's roughly every 3% of property tax levy equals 1% property tax rate um so what you saw in your property tax statements will not be what you pay in 2025 based on the proposed ly tonight the tax capacity over the last five years has significantly increased we about um five years ago if you look back at 2020 we're at 11.7 million today we sit at $27 million just over doubled um double and a half essentially over the past 5 years that is a insane amount of increase um I don't see that increase slowing down quickly um it will slow down if there was no more development but development takes two years to get online so something that goes up today you can use the Opus building for example that's going up as we sit today at 81 in the parkway you'll see that in two years on our property tax statements so it takes roughly two years to get there tax levy compared to tax capacity the difference between the black line and the blue line Green Line whatever below is the tax rate so as the tax capacity goes up and the tax levy stays the same that means the tax rate is decreasing as you can see those lines were much closer back in 2019 and 2020 the tax rate back then was roughly 50 to 56% somewhere in there depending on what year you looked at um today it sits at 35.4 41 with this property tax levy um impact on homeowners what does that mean for next year um a $525,000 house for 2024 pay $18.93 if you just follow lines across and 2025 preliminary based on this Levy not what we seeing on property tax statements is $18.83 so roughly $10 a change negative in 2025 this does not include any change in your home value it also does not include anything related to the school district or the county this is just the city portion of your taxes five years of historical data what the left graph means is the difference between the tax capacity and the tax levy so if those two numbers are matching or close to matching that typically means the tax rate stays the same if there's a significant difference between the blue line and the red line um means that the tax um rate would have dropped significantly the biggest one you can see is payable 2023 we had a 35% or almost 35% tax capacity and we had a 3% change in Levy that dropped the tax rate by over 10% that one year that was a significant change that happened within the last few years as you can see in the right graph um that shows the tax rate and what you actually paid in taxes so as you can see 22 to 23 you saw that 133% decrease almost in the tax rate which is what actually citizens would have paid at that time for property taxes and that is related to the left-and graph a lot of capacity change not a lot of Levy change means tax rates goes down and it said just that it's stayed very flat or essentially stayed very flat for the last three years a slight decrease with this year 2025 tax rate comparisons within the hanen county the Dayton one is final the blue one but all of the other ones are preliminary so that doesn't mean that they won't go down but they cannot go up from there every single City on this graph went up from 2024 based on their current numbers only one that did not was Dayton and Plymouth um and essentially we are on the lower third I would say um I've heard from Rogers they are not going to decrease their Levy I've heard from Champlin they're not going to decrease their Levy Corr is not going to decrease their Levy those are the three that I've touched B with and all three of them are keeping their Levy at the same number which means their tax rate will be the same for 2025 so we are on the lower third of the graph when I started here in 21 we were on the upper third or maybe even upper quarter of the graph when I started in 21 I use communities around us it's hard to get in Oka County stuff because whatever reason they make it super difficult to find and I don't know why but I'd love to be able to compare to inoka and Ramsey and other communities in inoka County but for whatever reason Ina county is really hard to work with getting numbers yeah R county is even worse they don't send their numbers until November so uh I do appreciate that about hen County we are able to get our numbers for tax capacity changes um on a monthly basis starting in March so I really do appreciate that I will say that as a one positive about being in headed the county key changes for 24 to 25 so the main things that happened we have some Capital project funds that increase dollars um I'll get those um I touched Bas on a couple of those a few sides ago but essentially a few $100,000 or more are going into each individual fund payment management Capital Equipment Etc we had a decrease in the arpa dollars that were received for federal from the federal government we Ed those to cover operations for 2 years remember we had $360,000 that we roughly 365 and we used $182,000 a year for 2 years to cover operations in order to De keep the tax rate lower um that fell off happened to be at the same time that the expenditures for our Assessment Services went to zero as well so the head upy now now covers 100% of our Assessment Services which happen to be about the same number um in 2025 so we were paying about $190,000 a year in Assessment Services and now we are paying $ Zer until we um reach a population of 25,000 and then that will go back up so just to keep that in mind for the council or they Chang their minds or they change their minds but for now they have not changed their minds and we're going to use it um also general fund expenditures we have additional staff so two police officers are looking to be hired both at midyear two firefighters are part of this um budget one part-time Public Works office staff and one additional part-time Public Works and M Parks maintenance employee there's an increase in the budget based on historical Trends what we're seeing with legal inspections assessing so on and so forth assessing again went way down so went from 190 to zero so um those historical Trends are a little different but uh and then increase based on current inflation of the line inms that you see that are essential which is utilities and supplies no different than what you'd see at home which is supplies for us is groceries to you guys as in personal lives but any other questions on key changes I keep moving general fund Revenue overall that is in um it is increasing by $675,000 about 3/4 of our revenue for the general fund or operations of the city come from property taxes as you can see the difference between the property tax number in 24 and 25 is roughly $550,000 the difference in the other numbers make up the difference between the 675 and the 551 so again that's licenses and permits um intergovernmental Revenue charges for services fines and forfeitures Etc interest earnings are doing extremely well um I will say that that's a significant increase from the last few years and hopefully that can continue um the idea that we will try to invest in longer term interest um Investments so that we can maintain the interest that we earning today because is interest goes down for everyone to borrow means that interest goes down for us to invest in as well so take advantage of it while it is high for us to invest in general fund expenditures overall again that's matching six 75 like I mentioned before we take the expenditure number and we um take away other additional revenues and get the difference in that which is the property tax levy C fund expenditures are going up 675,000 a majority of that is related to new um employees again you can see a big in uh Patrol investigation that's mostly related to we have the flock system that's being added as well that's an item there we have a couple of police officers as well that are being added um over time um as number of items in that Patrol investigation also a new Union contract was negotiated um that's in these numbers as well that'll be discussed with the council tonight added those in there as just a general number again it's not approved yet but um as a placeholder um another big decrease like I said it should was uh Assessment Services of going down 195,000 other Bas of touch points I want to make sure I touch based on the fire department because that is in colliding with two different um two new employee or two new firefighters that goes up 8% or roughly 74,000 bucks for two new officers um and then uh what other big ones are there planning and economic development so we added $330,000 next year for a study that the council can derve on or what they'd like to do um this year we did a master plan study that was totally unbudgeted for um hopefully we're able to cover that within the budget overall just by moving other pieces around um but next year we'd like to be planned out for that which was mentioned in the beginning that we want to have dollars planned out for the council to be able to spend Rel to a plan that they like to do next year or a study if you don't use it doesn't get lost it just would be able to be moved to the next year those are the main big changes that happened um overall I'm not hearing any major questions here okay we move on to the Utility Fund budget so that that's all related to tax levy um everything related to tax Lev was previously discussed Utility Fund budgets these were touched on based in October um and I touched base on these overall nothing much has changes to as the water fund and the sewer fund so the water fund is 100% based on water fees and user fees that come from Utility Billing if you look at the 2025 final budget all the way at the bottom total revenue is 3.6 million which is the far right number straight above the E on the water um and the bottom right number in the expenditures is 2.69 2 million so there's a million dollar difference there the reason for that is so that we can cover depreciation and new assets as we want to be able to put money away for New assets as the council's aware it costs $7 million for a Wellhead treatment plant so they are not cheap and just doing a million dollars a year in what I would call um Reserve dollars um takes seven years for us to pay for that project project and that doesn't include inflation so we want to be able to have a healthy water fund so they're able to put up water towers and water hment plants provide water for our residents and fire suppression for our residents at any time sewer fund is not quite the same it's a little different the sewer fund we don't have a wastewater treatment plant we don't have any major expenditures related to treating water or waste water I mean and so if you see the bottom right number which is underneath the second e in sewer 1.86 5 million in total revenues and total expenditures on the bottom right number is 2.2 million that's a NE $400,000 part of that is including depreciation which is um budgeted at $775,000 and the reason for that is cuz that is actually not a cash item we don't pay anybody for that that's just putting money away towards our um future um capital projects and capital needs sore fund isn't as volatile because we don't have to treat the water we just have to get or get the waste water to met Council so as long as we can cover the cost of treating the waste water and we should be have enough money to be able to do any capital projects we don't have any big projects within the sewer fund um if it's a water or main break we can fix those pretty quickly and they you know cost 40,000 bucks or 60,000 bucks something like that they're nothing crazy we do major road projects and we'll have to redo those but all of our infrastructure is fairly new most of the sewer was put in in 2007 or had been put in from developers since 2013 2014 so we don't have any major um projects that are needed at this time in the sewer fund I talked about these utility rates before but there they are the same we're looking at 3% increase in water rates and a 2% increase in sewer rates reason for that is because the sewer rate for ccil went up significantly and 2% is able to cover at least that increase not all of it I think it went up technically 4% but we have a little bit of extra dollars in the sewer fund to be able to cover for depreciation and water rates continue to have an increase and the reason for that is again because we are still a growing city if we had a bunch of people like Maple Gro our fees would be significantly less because of power of numbers the more people that use water the more dollars we have in here we are making money on water and the reason for that is so we can put in new infrastructure um if we'd had a lot more people in here we wouldn't have this high water rates which we have a common we that's a common complaint we get but the reason for it is because we are so much smaller than the community we compared to mostly which is Maple grow um 2024 cost comparison I know that the council I removed recycling I removed Street repair I added storm water in there and the reason for that is currently we don't build for storm water that's currently just on our developers to pay for yeah and so it's just in general for the council to know where we're at in perspective you can easily take oh five or six or 10 bucks or whatever it is for a storm water and the reason because we don't cover that with Levy we don't um the only person that covers that right now is developers um storm water won't be a big issue until we need to redo roads um once we need to redo roads if there's not storm water already on that roadway we will need to add storm water which means we either have to buy property and also add curb and gutter and that's new regulations related to M um not MSA um new yeah watered Watershed regulations in general we're right about the middle of the pack um I don't have 2025 rates for any of the other communities but I do have it for Dayton so we are the fourth lowest on this list but the six lowest or almost dead center if we do 20 25's rates I would presume that all of the um communities that are on there are going to have at least something for an increase I don't know that for a fact but I'm presuming that so I don't have those numbers but do want to provide it to the council overall that is all I have for tonight but I will stand for questions and I will stand for the public hearing if there's any questions that come up any questions for staff none for me and this is not approval of the budget this is just a public hearing approval of the budget will be later questions not on this part okay we'll open the public hearing we have anybody here speak anybody online um so if you wanted to speak on the public hearing on the truth and Taxation if you use the raise your hand function not all right I'll close the public hearing on that okay that's all I have thank you very much all right item K Ziggler all right Mr Mayor members of the council uh tonight you're asked to hold a public hearing and consider approval of a easan vacation on the Ziggler property um currently ploted as lot one block one uh vf1 13 Edition um the vacation would remove the existing easements on the property and would reestablish the drainage and utility easements on the boundary um with the replatting or the uh recording of the Ziggler Dayton addition plat um standard procedure for replatting already platted property is uh vacated the existing easements so that's all I got for this one any questions no motion to approve you'll have to open the public y um no I'll open the public hearing on this anybody speak to this anybody in line to speak to this so you have Ed the Raaz your hand function for the Ving the drainage and utility easement I'm not seeing any all right close the public hearing uh we have a motion I'll second okay any more discussion all those in favor say I I I I all those opposed say no motion carries 5 to zero for item K on the item L all right uh same procedure as the last item uh just a little bit different easement regarding the vacation um the city council's asked to hold a public hearing and consider a request to vacate an existing temporary culdesac easement at the end of Riverview Lane North uh located within the Riverwalk development uh more specifically the second edition of the Riverwalk development uh the request of vacation will be followed by reestablishment of the cesac easement with a revised legal description uh that reflects the actual layout of the culdesac um the culdesac currently is uh basically right in the middle of the ride of way U with equal uh distribution of the easement area on the surrounding properties um while the offsetting uh of the C saac was originally intended to minimize the impact on surrounding buildable Lots uh the single lot that the culdesac was initially going to impact solely um was platted as a buildable lot rather than left as an out lot uh the revised legal description reflects a centered location of the culdesac um creating equal impact of two adjacent properties and then very minor impacts on the two properties directly to the east um staff recommends approval of the vacation on the condition that a new easement agreement with updated legal description is recorded in the existing easement place um and I'll just note that we do as a at a staff level have that easement for uh review to be recorded here in the near future um so here's just a Showcase of the existing um easement area uh and then with the revised is revised what we're proposing or the Builder's proposing what's that is the Revis what we're proposing or what the Builder is proposing this was submitted by the uh developer okay is the proposed easan description and didn't we do this recently in Kings view when they did Kings view didn't we do this then we had to go back it was a big issue because there was a culd theack at the end of Kings VI that got ripped out and we had to replace am I thinking the right thing there was one on the North King yeah up yeah yeah so why would we do this again if it caused an issue last time we did it well the culdesac is already there this is just basically matching the legal description with the outline of the how the culdesac was built okay but how was it supposed to be built I didn't ask how I get that's how they built it was the proposed but how was it supposed to be built as the existing is shown there on the left okay so it wasn't the Builder didn't build it the way they were supposed to and now they want it change to match what they built I would say that that is uh correct with the addition of that being a buildable lot um you're kind of limiting the impact on that self lot and uh evenly Distributing it I've got a description or at least on the next slide here kind of an example of uh what we look to avoid in the future here yep um and then this is kind of what the anticipated look hopefully will be I'm not even sure how they were able to sell that but I hey had that same question about what that you're asking mat about you know was this a big mistake and somehow I accidentally I drove down this road today oh really and which which Ro three of them the one on the left truly and uh I I ended up at the end of this dead end and and literally it takes up two-thirds of these people's front yard and it was always clearly was built to be a temporary situation because the carbon gutter is there and uh they just pay part of the yard and so it's a pretty odd solution even if it was temporary so I I understand better now why it needs to be straightened out and I think that this was just from my understanding this was the last uh lot that was built in Diamond VI Estates um was where the culdesac is currently um I will also note that the applicant is here if uh if you have any direct questions for them or anything like that so if we do it the way there 138th and then in the example 38 gets extended beyond that what happens to the culdesac whose response is we just keep it like that with a weird roundabout there or does the road then get straightened out and if so who pays to then repair the properties for the culdesac is now I think that that is a question that we've dealt with at a staff level um but uh ultimately like the Riverwalk developers they had to rip out culdesac that were placed in Diamond View Estates that were temporary like on Kings view um the developer of the property to the north was the one that ended up removing the excess called the saac area and turning it into just normal road with normal right of way so we pass the buck to the next developer at this point there's no um I don't know if there's any uh recourse for requiring the existing developer to what is there I think that'd be a conversation that we'd want to have early with any developers that come in for that West or that Westerly property um and make sure that some sort of language like that gets incorporated into the da um um okay for replacement I just know that the on Kings VI wasn't the smoothest of processes so I want to make sure that if we're going to prove this that we have a better process in place for when that does develop because absolutely those two land owners or three land owners almost looking at the way that clips that one corner are going to get stuck with this and we don't want them come to the city saying you need to fix this when we approved it and yet we don't have a solution to make sure they don't get stuck with basically the road being ripped out but nothing but dirt out there coming back correct yeah so do the existing or the I'm sorry the proposed new cuis act does that impact the sidewalk on the opposite side of the road uh no actually the way that the I don't have an aerial there might have been an aerial in the packet but uh the cuac actually has the sidewalk in there currently where it's supposed to be and where it will remain uh with excess asphalt kind of creating that called The saac Edge to the north of that okay so that'll remain in the location and it's in today yes and that is currently within the right of way that is uh ploted for R View Lane sure okay any more questions I will open up the public hearing there anybody here to speak to this anybody online to speak to this you can use the raise your hand function if you wanted to speak on this public hearing [Music] not see all right I'll close the public hearing okay I will look for a there any more questions a motion in a second a motion to approve I'll second any more discussion I'm just TR to say both solutions kind of suck the end of the day both Solutions suck and and one there's been an outlaw with a around in it versus either of these I think there's a better solution than either of these and that we could probably find but I think they're requesting in the future for future development where call temporary call to sacks are established uh I think a recommendation at a staff level would be to leave that area as an outlaw so it's not built upon creating issues like that in the future yeah cuz this is going to come back but it might not come back for years and no it's just at least it's not somebody there with the cuac in their front yeah yeah it's the owner of the outlaw then so which is what they ran into at River Hills the owner of the outlaw was the HOA and then the way to figure out how to make it work so either way somebody gets the referend mistak okay um any more discussion all those in favor say I I all those opposed say no carries 5 to zero and we are on to item m [Music] developers on fantastic uh mayor members of council we'll get started here then we the developer will jump in the middle of conversation um be discussion on the Public Finance assistance related to the parkway neighborhood that we just discussed and approved at the last council meeting um again as you remember that in November of 2024 we had a preliminary approvals for a comp plan Amendment rezoning preliminary plat PUD and a sight plan for the entire um parcel that is 50 some Acres on the south side of 94 um the plat is on the Le hand side the prary plat you would have seen um as you remember project one is 180 apartments that means the roads and utilities to phase one project two which has not been approved or seen and the length with the council is 160 Apartments um unit equivalents and rooll in utilities to Maple or project two within the um picture on the left the Public Finance request is for $2.7 million of to forgive City fees both on Project one and project two um additional is a land write down um current valuation which we had done on the property of partial 2 which we currently own is $780,000 worth of land um again that's based on evaluation that was done not sure how accurate that can be based on appraisals but that is what the uh appraisal gave us back and that's been the company we've been using for the last few appraisals and the additional request is a $2.5 million City goo Bond um there are some additional things we could do instead of a goo Bond but um and I will get into those in a minute but the total Finance request is for all of these items the land write down um again you can use any number you want to the idea was that the developer is going to put a roadway through the project um the parcel the parcel of land has no value to the city of Dayton overall anymore um we had intended to use this as a w as a wetland Dillan um a wetland Bank area with the original person that we had dealt with in the Wetland Bank said that they would um this would be a great Wetland bank that there was turn over and staff at and I don't know what Bowser at Bowser there you go and the new staff member said this is not a good idea to do wetland bank here you should not do it um the time when we were purchasing this parcel is before The Interchange went in um in order for for to acquire um the storm water ponding so this parcel went straight up and down if you were to extend the um property lines it went straight up and down if we were to just acquire the property for storm water ponding when we did the parkway it was roughly $400 and some thousand and the property under wanted 500 grand for the whole thing so the city at the time said it would make more sense for us to buy the whole thing than buy a little tiny sliver of storm water ponding which is why we ended up with that parcel um so there's no real value for us anymore as a city and we are holding on to it and we are paying taxes on it every single year so we pay roughly $3500 in taxes um from the city in order to have that partial in our name as it is not serving a government function so we pay taxes on that property even though it was slated for ponding um the portion that is ponding is not taxed just the portion that's on the south side of um in their interchange because it see it serves no public purpose um besides the city is holding on to it um if it was for wetland Bank we that would be considered a public purpose because it's not a wetland bank yet we cannot claim it as a public charged project so why would we so they're now saying it wouldn't be a good for the bank that is correct and we had a prior so staff member at Bowser um initiated and said yes if you're going to buy that that'd be a great spot to put Wetland bank at um there was staff turnover and I can quisberg was the contact with them so I'm just wondering why we know this opinion is correct versus the last one um I can have quisberg mention that maybe there's actually quite a few factors that go into it um including land raise from adjacent Property Owners but it it was it was viewed as a favorable project once we got deeper into it we realized we wouldn't be able to turn as many credits out of it in other words it wouldn't have been as quite as successful as a project as a standalone bank now this being part of a larger development there's more opportunity because of the additional land rights and the ability for them to mitigate on site so we do see value in it being combined with the project okay this was purchased with stormwater dollars so developers developer payments from previous storm water funding has was purchased for that property it was not for no was not purchased with tax dollars if that helps the conversation and all that just in general this one doesn't bother me mean too much it's the next one sure so I'm going to get into all of those individual details in the next ones besides the land write down unless there's any major concerns from the council please let me know we can always come back and talk about those but essentially what the city said is that if the developer is going to put the road across the property um it makes sense for us just to let the developer do what they do is to develop the property that way we get some tax benefit out of it long term everything north of that roadway would essentially be become um developable land and then they could use that Wetland Bank South or Wetland area south of that roadway to be able to offset any Wetland needs that they have on the North side but essentially to be able to say okay we want to we would we need it developed anyways it doesn't to any good to hold on to it and we're going to get tax dollars by having it developed so it makes a whole lot of sense at least from an economic development standpoint each phase development fees which has been talked about and discussed in previously before but do want to make sure everyone knows where they're coming from phase one is on the leand side those are development fees of 180 units broken down by each individual fund storm sanatory Water Park and trail those first half ones are done with development and any development that comes into Dayton the bottom half is any building permit fees these are charged to every building permit that comes into the city of Dayton no matter if it's a home or if it's for a um apartment building or if it's for a business the building permit fees are on the bottom left hand side there for phase one total eligible fees for City phase one which do not include me Council sack because we are not the end result of those that is Council money and whack from Maple Grove are in the total eligible fees for City Phase 1 which is $1.54 five million phase two again that's not with being developed today but um will be shortly behind and figured working with the developer he um he has mentioned that it would be essentially the same project going at the same time if we were to wrap those two into together try to get more fees and be able to help with the development overall again breakdown storm sanitary Water Park and trail on the top again that's developed at 12 units an acre for 160 units and these are estimates for myself I don't know if those will be exactly 160 units it could be 165 it could be 155 I'm not sure and then building permit fees so total eligible fees for f City Phase 2 is 1364 million that includes all of the top ones and then any sack and whack from the city's perspective so that kind of that kind of incorporates I'm going to go back one slide here that kind of incorporates Public Finance and request item number one 2.7 million item number two or item number three on that is the request for the bonding um there are three possibilities for funding I'm not sure if any one of them are you know better than the other one but um the first option is to bond so I did have uh Jason arsal with Ellers run some comps on bond years and dollar amounts for if the city work to bond and again 10 years 15 years 20 years depending on the dollar amount these are rough numbers and the best you know kind of average some years might be more some years might be less but again just a general number um per year as a point of reference phase one only of the project will'll pay $600,000 a year in property taxes based on the current tax rate we have City Dayton is roughly a third of that which I mentioned earlier in the um TNT meeting so that would amount to about $200,000 a year and proper taxes coming into the city of Dayton for this project of phase one only so if you use that the number on the right which is the $200,000 number you can kind of figure out where in the bond years and the dollar months um line up related to this uh $2.5 million would be somewhere between 15 and 20 years and I used five-year increments because that's just most common for um bonding doesn't mean we couldn't have 16 years or 12 years it just seems a little more um I i' looked at Jason arfel to give us some more feedback on that um again I'm only using phase one of the project not any of the future phases at all either within that bonding calculation number we could also do a loan from the city essentially um give the fees to the developer UPF front and essentially say okay you're going to keep doing phases as we go along here I'm guesstimating the fees based on what future potential projects are based on the entire site plan that I've seen phase three and phase four I do not have a phase five in here I'm not sure what that is did my best guess based on the phases three and four phase three is the apartment building that's on the north side of um the project overall so we could always do a loan from the city essentially we wouldn't take out a bond we would just pull the money from those individual funds just as I have marked out there um and then send a check or a subsidy to the um developer in order to do that and then we would just get those fees back over time once the developments were to come in place how does that impact our investments I mean isn't that kind of Peter Paul thing yep it's a Peter Paul thing so yeah you're going to cost money though take Peter to PayPal so we are going to yeah I mean we'll have to reduce Investments so um we probably have to we wouldn't have to pull any new ones I just wouldn't be able to invest the dollars that we have currently um I try my best to allocate out based on projects and based on the CIP numbers we have I try not to do too aggressively because if I do it perfectly and then we move a project up or another project comes in over budget now we have no extra what I want to say reserves available to do that project and all of a sudden now I'm pulling dollars to pay a project early which means now we're losing money on investments my goal is always to be a little conservative but also still be as aggressive as possible to try to earn as much of dollars as possible because the longer you invest dollars the more consistent income you have so I can invest at five years and get four and a half or 5% interest or as if I could do one year I might be able to get 38 or 41 or something like that I guess what I'm getting at is the simple fact that whatever you invest today yep you're going to reduce it by that amount that's correct and therefore we're going to lose that interest and you could say on average it's about 4% right on that okay the last possibility and not to address this with the developer at all um this is just discussions internally that we've had since um our conversation this morning which is a special assessment on the property I know that doesn't mean that it's going to be forgiven for by any means but this has been a common practice that's happened amongst development is that essentially we'll pay for it up front we special assess the property and the property then pays it back over time um at whatever years we have have it set at so essentially we upfront the money again and you can use 2.5 or whatever number you have um we pick it out of one fund and then we just get a special assessment property tax every single year um similar to what we do on any other project that would be normally we would bond for it and then do a special assessment which we could do that too or we can use our own money and say we're going to special assess it and just foro those dollars and be able to um get the money back over time so those are the three possibilities we're funding on the bonding aspect things wouldn't they have a significant hit then I mean if if we're talking about an assess yep they still got to get that money out still yeah the developer still has to pay the money so they can they wouldn't have to get it upfront but they would be able to pay for it back over time um some developers are able to do that because they're able to uh increase rent or change rates of whatever they're building or whatever else in order to um pay for that assessment over time again this is a common practice that I've heard of doing Special assessments they wave their right to contest the special assessment and then just assest it to the property for future collection so those are the three options I came up with I'm happy to come up with any other options this isn't a great ask to have at last minute there are some timing calculations that are causing some I would say forcing of this conversation I normally would have asked this Council to pull the item from the agenda tonight um based on this new information however based on timing for the developer he is said that we need to have it on this agenda and I would agree that we need to have a conversation within the council before move forward um so phase one we bring in 200k to the to the city once it's fully y so again remember it takes two years once it gets up then it takes two years for it to go so we have to do this is where I'd have to rely on Jason arsal here which is why it's here tonight um is to be able to run some scenarios for tax abatement dollars this essentially would be a tax abatement project so what would mean is that the taxes for this project would specifically go to that Bond so it wouldn't affect anything outside of that boundary of the property so it's not going to affect the other residents that are here today um but it would forego those taxes on that one phase for the next years depending on what well it kind of will affect the other residents right because we won't be getting any tax revenue real tax revenue in but we're going to have more police calls more fire calls it's going to cost the city more because this exists and the city's the citizens are the ones that are going to pay that price um they will pay that price yeah and again it's only for phase one I'm using I'm not using any phase two2 or anything else and based on what the conversation with the developer has been is the phase two will slowly or will quickly be behind phase one um and that's why I only used phase one as the portion because didn't want to include phase two if you include phase two now you at least double it per year and then you take the time and half but then again you have all the other costs related to operations of that um facility on that side of please calls the would have been nice to see like a a spreadsheet I would love to run a spreadsheet for you if I had more time so question I got to start with is what happened we've we've been talking about this project for well over a year a year and a half now and now all of a sudden we got to hurry up and get it done in the next 10 days Y and I sounded like Scott there but that was my question I mean this is essentially I mean the same as a tiff at this point in time like we're subsidizing the development yeah I will say that and it's not what we wanted there right I mean before I was on Council the council voted down a building development here because it asked for Tiff and this one came in and said no no extra needed from the city we're just going to be able to do it and all of a sudden the last minute we're asking for it and it feels like it's not specifically a tiff but very it's the same impact to the city's Financial the city but it is not Tiff um there is is a significant difference in Market values between a tiff project and this I will say in the short term it it looks a lot like that Tiff long term it doesn't that's why it'd be nice to see I would love to show you a spreadsheet if I had any more information I will say that I learned this information as of 9:00 this morning that um I will give it a short story um as best as I can so the developer and myself had been talking over many many months and obviously the last year and a half and we had come to the agreement that yep we'll wave or we figured we could wave fees that seemed reasonable that seemed understood across all Council and and myself um the city of Dayton had said our fees will be waved that's our input into the project which is what we've done historically um we wave fees we did it for the cubes building we've done it for brayburn Trails development we've done it for Sundance greens we've done it for other projects in town that have done projects for the city and then we wave fees on that behalf in order to get the project done that's our contribution the developer's perspective was that that's his Equity that he's putting into the project so he's he's going to give us the fees and that's his fees are going to go into the project and so he counted his fees that he's paying as his Equity into the project and I counted the same fees as our contribution into the project so we were double counting the fees related to the development so this the developer said that's my contribution as Equity that's my dollars into the project is That's My Equity I'm I'm taking the money I'm not giving it to you City I'm giving it to the project overall and as the city's perspective I said yep that sounds good we'll weigh fees so short story is we've been talking about this for many many months and all been on the same page the whole time but we're double counting the same fees from both sides just a slight clerical er um yeah I wouldn't say slight but I would say major but yeah so the from City's perspective we were counting the fees as that's our input into the project for giving of City fees and the developer was saying that's my fees I'm putting them into the project so that's why essentially is the same number is because we've double counted those numbers twice this is the second second big project now where the developers coming after something either Tiff or just go Bond or whatever right have we had has Jason taken a look or is it I mean my guess is that property is being purchased for too much or overv valuated one way or the other if they can't get this done without without that extra help in my mind that's extra the developer shouldn't be paying to the property owner yeah we can I would Jason Jason you want to come up here I would suggest calling Jason arsal up to the discuss talk about it yeah sure just name and address oh my goodness yeah uh so good evening mayor MERS of the council Jason Aral with Ellers Municipal advisor for the city uh the question was on the land uh and so yeah we did look at that I mean it is over quite a bit over the current assessed value we didn't do an appraisal of the land um it's not as if the project is paying on a per unit basis too much for a land for a part but uh we did raise that as an issue if it costs this much to serve the property with utilities then is it really worth that much I mean generally we start with the philosophy that development pays its own way and in this case it really can't if it's going to pay that price for for the raw land so that was one concern that we did raise yes just what other concerns sorry Mr what is the the how much do you believe it's overvalued by or did you not really detail it that down may we didn't I didn't quantify that you you said it was one of the concerns or one of the items what were the other ones uh well mayor M of the council not I wouldn't say concerns necessarily but every time we look at these projects we're just trying to make sure that what's being represented is you know um the full picture and that assumptions are accurate and that the subsidy that's being granted isn't more than is necessary to make it feasible in the market and so uh you know we got comfortable up to the the fee amount um but then our analysis really stopped at that point and if we were to go further than that it really requ an analysis of all the phases uh including the Final Phase because I think all of the land uh at this point is being sort of weighted into that first phase so it's really difficult to know what those future phases is there going to be effectively like a windfall that comes to those phases because it doesn't have a land cost attached to it and it's all being absorbed by phase one so that analysis is something I think I need and now I'm hearing you don't have time we shouldn't be forcing to brush decision because the lack of Plenty on someone else's rep does not constit emergency and the other question is there anything that stops them from stops the current property owner from just splitting this up into different Outlaw Zack and then just selling the one Outlaw for project one they need now and versus developer buying everything now because that would then reduce The Upfront cost I'm was guessing a significant chunk just given the size of that land yeah they'd have to do a lot split which have to be approved by Council but yeah so one of the complications with this you still even if it's just one lot that's planted you still need the road and the roads Associated storm water he'd have to purchase essentially what he'd make is Outlaws for parcel one and and I'm using the map here in front of us parcel one and then the north portion um anything that's not colored in yellow or orange would have to be then considered not purchased by the developer wow that would be yeah we did ask that question too not to interrupt but I just uh understood that that wasn't an option under the current agree for the purchase of the property but that would have been something that would have helped alleviate some of those upfront expenses yeah that's was my my point of is like you you may not eliminate all but you could eliminate a lot of The Upfront cost that way gu I'm I'm still a little bit uh off off balance with the second part of this I understand the misunderstanding or where that you know how that got created with the with the numbers getting used twice um but it was when it was originally talked about the the need for the Forgiveness of fees piece of it was related to the cost of of getting the road in which benefited other properties in in the city in in general um but now we're we're essentially doubling that amount and that's not a $5 million Road I so I don't uh six mil you know I'm kind of lost on the on the need and I'm hearing that maybe the land is overpriced but that's not within our uh purview to negotiate land costs or or overall development cost for that matter um you know it's it's still it's a big ask and it's coming at the last minute and it really I'm disappointed I'll say that to the developer that we've been taking this ride for you know a year and a half and we've all been pretty excited about this as being a good project and now I feel a little bit like we're well we got to do this or or the thing is done and I you I don't like the way this has come about I don't think it needed to and I think this information should have come forward a lot sooner um if this was known from the beginning that this thing wouldn't fly without this much support from the city we should have had that information and taken that walk together and now we're not yep we have any more questions for there um should have the developer come up do you may c yeah come on up thank you thanks um no more finger apish oh yeah not watch I want to see your fingernails green Green's the next the GRE mics to billfall do yeah yeah um all right good afternoon Happ happy day everybody Michael elaan uh with the applicant I apologize I thought we were starting I'm here late so let me defuse a little bit I'm in zero interest in trying to push something that every one of you is not a th% comfortable getting through not my intention to try to dram Jam this we the staff and your team have been working on this since well last uh November January 23rd I sat before all of you and we had to Kick the Can because of this eaw 9 months later qu million dollar spent we victoriously got that done with you guys as a negative declaration in September I have been highly clear uh in terms of where the natural deadline sit with this project and for always and always back in September when we did the EA there was a flag in the sand that we had to close on the land in January so working backwards from that we had the uh EA then it was going to go preliminary final plat and way we went and that was all going to happen in and around October we're now sitting here at the end of the year and I can only see what I can see on my side meaning you know these guys and you know the process so let's start with there is a fact there's a fact that the flag in the sand with me purchasing the land it is scheduled for a January 8th closing in order to do that the lenders and myself which are investing seven figures in in the development want to have the assurance that there's a development agreement and a plat meaning you know that's standard operating procedure so whenever that is that's when we want to close the ideal scenario with the current Buy sell relationship was to have that done uh January 8th right and so everybody's known about the dates and I've been pushing and our team has delivered and I you know I'm not here to throw anybody under the bus I'll just tell you collectively between the city team and my team we've failed to be able to get this in in a in a process that doesn't have you guys coming in on on crystal Eve to try to finish off the last thing I want cuz what I what I do want to tell you when I get into actually what I wanted to share with you this is 18 months of my life this is 18 months of thousands and thousands of hours and hundreds and hundreds like north of a half a million dollars real cash into this project okay so the last thing I want to do is just try to force you guys inside of 15 minutes to learn a very substantial project for your city and for us and always I know what it's like when you you know if you're forced on a decision the safest thing is to not do it right I mean it's just a typical so if we need to do this three meetings I don't care how many it takes I want to at least be able to for you to to be able to look at me and say I clearly understand the risks the rewards the opportunities the threats and be able to make a a very educated decision and I think as as you get into the fundamentals of the project we have have gone exceptionally out of our way to bring you what I promised you guys in June 2023 and if you look at the map and what I've done and I I did a comparison so you can look at like how my project and what you and I are all looking at today and how it compares to dominia management that was here in uh November of 2022 and the two people before him that were also bringing not great project so let me say that at a at a very fundamental level in Mr the guy Mr Ellers uh and I very clearly can provide you spreadsheets be so while you don't have them I'm sorry and I'll make sure you have them right if we're not comfortable by the end of today I don't care how many meetings it takes but please don't let's not kill the project because you feel you have to do something today you don't okay today I want to be able to share with you what what I believe is the the the summation of this 18 months right and I would I'd like to address David your comment about where there coming out of nowhere and so on and so forth not with you guys but at a staff level like let me be really clear I've never been waving my hand saying that I should go buy a $600,000 traffic light at the corner of Dayton Parkway you know 2,000 ft from where my project is right this is it it it you know at some point we have to recognize that you know think about an airport you have a an airport and a Runway that's bought and paid for by the Metropol area what do you call that the mac and then you have the private sector that flies the planes in and out of there so just in short it's to say that I'm not asking for Tiff I'm not bringing affordable housing and I'm not looking for a handout okay I I can fund the private parking lot the private driveway that we talked about with the you know wider this the entire building and I can fund that privately I have raised 20 million plus in equity for these private developments I'm not asking you to fund anything private I'm asking 100% of what is very truthfully public infrastructure we've done a report and you know without getting into a lot of examples you know driving up here I pulled out of my house I came out of my development all that road I should be buying if I was selling the houses on the left and right I'm buying that road but once I came out I pulled out to what uh uh they call it now Maple cve Parkway used to be called laale right that's a public road bought and paid for by all of us the public you know how you say taxpayers the developer didn't buy that the city bought it and it's the same thing here this is a city road on a $27 million investment that was made called the Dayton this beautiful interchange that we have and that in part guys also brings you to the issues with land okay that land was a what do you say a sod farm for 50 bloody years right what's it worth there a sod farm it's worth agricultural values to your not your fault to my fault as a blessing $27 million comes in and it's now a brand new interchange it changes the value of all of that land which is why lenar went and bought land buying land and this that and and guess what the price of that land went up after that approval okay so you know Gordy is a you know he's a private citizen he's selling the land and frankly he took uh you know a discount selling it compared to you know the the prior guy because he recognized you know a lot of different things I I I think that uh and then I spent uh you know X dollar with my bank and we hired uh say Nagle Nagle appraisal company Nagle very well known here and they went out and did an appraisal and everything is very in line as somebody just said on a you know per unit basis per acre basis it's definitely more than Farmland but it's still less than you know a commensurate you know going around in the market so I don't discount Matt that the value the total transaction for this acreage is certainly increased compared to what it did five years ago when it was agriculture Zone and there wasn't a a $27 million gig okay so this is sort of like the market so let me just say it this way the land that we're purchasing we're not purchasing it at a ripoff price we're not getting ripped off you not getting ripped off but we're paying FMV fair market value it's been tied up by a very respected appraiser okay so we get that then the cost of the road um sadly it is a five some million dollar Road and part of that is I have a you know great company called SM henches they do a lot a lot a lot a lot of Street work and stuff meticulously gone through this you have to remember that this coming around from Dayton Parkway most of the money in this project more than 50% of it is in just that first part because the traffic light alone I think we have a four 475 almost $500,000 just for a a traffic signal light up at the top forget how much the sidewalk and the this and the that and the reality is unless we can bring the road to where the right hand side of parcel number two this 52 Acres it's going to sit with an assessed value of a million eight it pays $133,000 a year gross and you guys end up with 4500 bucks at the corner $27 million infrastructure project so what we have is a project that's designed to develop um substantially more units than dominium right they come in with 420 units wanted to bring low income housing and charge 10 and a half or 12 some million bucks in Tiff I don't want any of that number one I'm going to be Market rates so everybody's going to have a higher assess value paying more taxes than generate taxes for you guys and I've spent 18 months doing what I do and I'm not I'm okay at what I do yeah and I got we got a beautiful project this is 600 units plus high density that if you compare it to like Zack and I talked to this morning three units in an acre for residential single family you'd need 200 and some acres worth of land to do what I'm doing in 26 Acres one stop light guess what else happens don't ever don't forget this guys and GS rooftops commercial goes in that order all the time I worked the last site I telling you always about over on Bass Lake Road there high ve sat forever and ever they didn't build they didn't build they didn't build but once you passed we put up another 4 or 500 units within that one mile radius boom building goes up everything happens so my 600 units coming into this project and this little road that you know your side and is is you know 2.8 some million bucks it's 1.56% 1.56% uh relationship between the private sector investment that I bring and the public sector investment of 2.8 million bucks so I and I have this all in a in a presentation that I don't know if you can bring up but if I could short that down and just tell you here's in it works out to for every dollar that I'm sitting here telling you that we have to put into a road a public road that has a light that not only goes to my place meaning parcel one it also creates the single road that goes to sheney which has and I i' been trying to work with him to buy that land and do more units it's another 6080 million bucks worth of project so 2.8 million bucks you've got over $200 million worth of value in parcel 3 and parcel one from a $2.8 million investment so just on my part and I I did this a lot guys all over the country Economic Development working with cities at a at a at a neutral which reminds me that I told you I was going to wear two hats today one is telling you the developer that's been at this for 18 years done a lot of money and put a lot of money in and I I I believe greatly in the project but as an economic developer let me just tell you that the way this works out this is $64 to one okay as a public guy I pay taxes I own a house I'm like all of you and I'm also an investor and what I'm telling you is this project is $1 the public puts in right which is actually for by the taxes that you guys are not collecting right now from a project that doesn't exist okay so we're going to take one of the six or eight projects in front of you there's at least six projects maybe eight between Shany and my property one of them solves in 15 years not 25 not 26 years like a tiff 15 years is gone now you have zero basis in 15 years and that goes by fairly quickly um and that's it and so it's $1 a public $64 private for every dollar that we're investing in this public road the curb cuts that I pull off of for project one project two project three four and five up to the top works out to about a 64 $64 ratio to one so in the end we came came you know for quite a while uh you know with with what is what is this going to take you know what's the cost of the road the rest of it I've always handled and I've told you that 100 times I need my plats and I'll go get my money and come in and we'll go building them and I've already got a couple of them for the first project and and quite a bit of interest on uh what you see here as project number two but um you know at the end of the day I think what you would find is that we might be at some initial what do you say uh setting some initial precedents in the sense that um if I could say this delightfully you know and and as a big fan Dayton is an upand cominging blossoming city right it's not like I don't know Columbia Heights where's John right Columbia Heights nice city but it's full it's built there's not like you know so the point I'm getting at is this is I don't think that you guys have had to present or tackle how do we deal with a fully high density site that's at the corner of a $27 million interchange that's on I94 it's different than the rest of Dayton it's a little pocket down in the bottom left but you know we pack a big punch by code you guys have said gm5 gm5 what does it mean he's telling me when I first met he's like yeah but you got to have all this really high density I'm like what's that 12 units an acre you look at my plans gentlemen we're two times that right so the fees that we're talking about the taxes that we're talking about I'm I've designed and invested and banned my architect youit we're submitting plans that are doing two times the minimum requirement which means you know at the end of all of this guys you got net numbers as uh Zach alluded when when our company pay a dollar of taxes in property taxes you the city see about 34% of it or you know round numbers about a third the rest of it is blah blah blah blah so that trickle down of 33% 3/4 of a million dollar okay so now I'm an accredited investor I'm telling you here's your your outflow right and I've done this in my packet you'll see it these are called I I've done a lot of spreadsheets for you guys today Dennis you're seeing when you're going home or whatever but um the bottom line is the the um the investment that uh that we have in the in the street ends up at it's uh about $2.8 million yeah and uh and we can cover that through as I said that first phase of real estate taxes for 15 years and the balance is is basically just from fees that ordinarily I pay to the city but when we talk to the city you guys I think it's fair to say the private sector can probably get the job done faster on time and on budget cheaper then if you guys had to go build Maple grow Parkway or date whatever you have to go through a lot longer and a much more expensive program so at the end of the day we've done everything that we can to to trim the thing down and and at the end you got sort of again inflow outflow outflow is $2.8 million day one matched up with a million six of other outside cash okay now what does that do opens up the project and things are moving your inflow when you look at a cash report and I can easily do this with Mr ERS gentleman tomorrow and you know you with all this stuff but at the end of the day think about it this way if I said to you as an investor you're going to put up $2.8 million and your annual income is $750,000 a year net that's your 1/3 of the2 million some OD dollars of property taxes that this project generates so with $750,000 of income against a $2.8 million basis in investment is something in the neighborhood of a 30% internal rate of return it's hard to find that in the private sector much less telling you guys you get to put in a you know put in a traffic light and build me a bloody Road and let me get to work right I'll make you all kinds of money but like I'm not in the business to do traffic lights I've been telling Zach that for a long time and I'm not looking for handouts I don't want them but I do want in a p in a typical scenario of public and private and Mary is here from Maxfield research she's a subject matter expert that you can drill she works for a huge number of developers works with cities all over the place and can share with you some of the precedent but at the end of the day I'm here to tell you I have a project that we can develop north of 600 units we can deliver close to three4 of a million of net net money that comes to the city and I'm asking you guys to do public infrastructure just build you know that that part of it I'll do 100% of the private I don't need anything on that but the road is a public it's public road it's not coming it's not like I'm saying pave my interior of my projects as though I was a single home builder I'm not asking that I just need the public road because as you can see you know to no fault of these two gentlemen are probably most of the people in this room but people preceding us you know we got a road coming into somebody else's property on parcel number three that you guys you know and then your parcel number two all of that's Wetland which you know I've Speak taken a year of my life away to to get this environmental and all this Wetland blah blah blah cuz I want also tell you parcel number one this gentleman that's how many square feet of wetland Michael Elon and his design team would been that's how many square feet we're impacting in Wetlands you know on this property we really really put a lot of time you know with John and and and Zach's help and and Jason too um we got a great project at the end of the day it's a great project but you know to to tell the developer you know to go by traffic lights up there you know you know it's it's 800 feet from my property like and and it's so and to to say that when you got prime rate at eight you got construction money guys running around telling me they want 10 and 11% like you know somewhere has got a give right the financing alone just since I started this project guys just the banks juice right juice what they call juice goes into the abyss like where is it going the bank getting it how much it's like 80 to $125 a month so Matt tell your girl your rents going up 100 and a quarter this month and every month thereafter because somebody doing something at the Federal Reserve and the interest rates so we're having a big challenge just getting projects built in this environment much less having to come in and pick up not quasi private public not quasi this is straight up a traffic light and a right of way that gets me access to my property that's it I don't I'm I you know truly if I wanted to public all this stuff I would have told you that a while long time ago I know but I I told these guys you know I'm not in the business of of of funding you know traffic lights in intersections you know that are th feet from where I am you know so so let me help you real quick cuz I feel like we're talking in circles a little bit and I appreciate everything that you you said um so I I like the project and I think I speak for everyone up here when I say the project if the the Public Finance request was Zero you'd have no problem the the project up is great Everyone likes the project so no one's debating the standing of the project the quality of the project if I'm misspeaking for anyone just tell me to shut up but I I think we're on the same page that the Project's good okay y so I have a couple questions for Zach so Zach the the city light that we're talking about that goes in that's being split amongst all the parcels that cost correct it's not just being put all on the showman correct so that's being split among all the Parcels because they're the ones utilizing it and the traffic that goes in and out of there are the ones that are going to need to use it so they didn't even need the traffic light so those people that live in the apartments can safely get in and out of that road without causing a much of accidents and people getting hurt fair enough to say that's correct so we utilize the butt four test y if the development was not there but for we wouldn't need the traffic light correct and that's why we don't have a traffic light there now no development there Corel goes in we need the traffic light that's correct the other question I have is the road to get to the uh east side of parcel 2 what's what's the approximate cost for that piece east side of parcel the right side of parcel 2 me parcel 3 through parcel 2 and to the east side of parcel 2 and Jason of parcel one I'd have to look at Jason for that cost CU I don't have that number approximate it was a little bit more than half two call it less than three more than two two and a half Jason can you yeah we we haven't I haven't seen any breakdowns of the estimated cost we haven't done an analysis based on a property basis so I I I will say that is the expensive part of it because of the Wetland impacts it's significant impacts in there with a lot of so the city is kind of to get the to get the street to your property and the light needs to go in and we can argue who's who's responsible for the light the city or the person putting the people there that need the light right it could in my mind it could go back and forth right and I think the I think where I got to and keep mind we got the email 11 minutes before the city council meeting started so I'm thinking through this I'm thinking here because we haven't had any time to think about it right I I can completely see how we give the 2.7 million in fees because that's going to cover the road and part of the light if you will right that's going to really cover the road that's going to open that up right so that part I can see the city saying this is my opinion no one else's that I could see this okay yeah I could see why we would we would forgo that the roads going on our property you're building it for us I I can get behind that I can also get behind possibly the fact that that land holds very little little Financial value as a matter of fact that parcel 2 costs the city money right because we to pay taxes on it so I I can even get to number two on the Public Finance requests where I struggle is the newest thing that that we got 11 minutes for the meeting which is number three Y and the reason I struggle with number three is is because one way or another the city is subsidizing the development beyond our property so we've gotten the one could argue our fair share of the light for our property we've marked down the price of our property and we built the road to to what is essentially parcel one where I have a hard time is the last one which is the 2.5 million and what I hear you saying is the city should become an investor in this project essentially and your return is going to be great you're going to invest this money you're going to get this great return rate because we're going to unlock all this Revenue that's kind of what I hear I I'm I'm rephrasing what you said but you're saying as an investor this is a great return so you're asking the city to invest in the property I I am torn on the city's responsibility to be an investor in development right and I really struggle with that yeah so again I I love you're fantastic I love work with you staff always says how great you to work with I love the project I can see how we got to some of this but I am struggling and I'm not looking for you to answer but I am struggling with number three because I have a hard time um I think that is the struggle yeah I'm guessing that's with all of us there's going to be you're going to add how many people living in these and you're going to have police calls and fire calls down there they're going to happen happens everywhere they're brand new developments are not it's not a knock on your development people that live there just happens right it's life for people 100% right those are costs of the city right the maintenance of those roads costs the city all of these things the city is going to endure and so if we're not getting any if we're offsetting that Revenue in any way shape or form to me that Revenue that we're forgoing would be put into a police officer or some kind of infrastructure structal support for the extra headcount we're now adding to the city that we now have to um grow the city in order to maintain the same level of service throughout and so again I I'm not I want to give these people a chance to talk so I'm not the only one talking so I know you want to respond but I would let everyone else yeah um so what I heard you say at least what I think I heard is phase one will if we say did a 15-year Bond M it would roughly Break Even I'm going to go to that slide just so you can see it again okay um so that's the numbers and again I have just it's an average doesn't mean it's exactly that number it could be up or down by a couple thousand dollars I'm not worried about that so it might actually be 20 years then if we're talking about 2.8 um if it's bringing in 200k well I shouldn't say that because obviously it's going to bring in more as values increase but my my point here is is that um phase one will will not not quite Break Even because we will have a couple years where we have no Revenue um we will need to support it as man mentioned um and and really what I think we're talking about is phase two phase three phase four for bringing in the the payment so to speak the the the benefit you are correct um and phase two is is going to start when soon Ben and I we hopefully it's a 2025 break uh and that's going to that's going to be roughly the same 20 I would say on a conservative level it would be about the same number of dollars coming into the city of Dayton per year so this is all the stuff I need to see on a sheet um so let's talk a little bit about timeline you I don't know that you're going to get an answer tonight not um and we're look at it we have no I don't think he wants the answer don't have the power nor I don't think we' want to kill the project so yes yeah I I like Matt said I think all of us even the plane commission look at this like a a great project um and again it's very clear you're you're a a fun person to work with so um and that sounds like you're you know everything's productive but you have this this Kink this 2.8 um and I I think I I personally need more time to chew on it yeah but if it was in you know rewind I we can't change that we're here tonight let's just say that tonight was a meeting that would have been great if we did like a workshop a month or two ago and and one of the blessings that came out of this morning's meeting that you know at least helped uh me anyway was there's we got all of this information which is the money the money the money the money and then there's the what I'll call the technical stuff he works on that's like you know uh plat stuff right buffer this and square feet that blah blah blah and they're moving through the process but it appears that based on you know just clipping along and then like you guys have a change thing going on here in early January the point is um if in fact the final plat and the develop the final plat is what drives everything because what these guys have teaching me is the development agreement which is the important thing for us along with the final plat as I know uh as I've been taught anyway development agreement comes after a final plat so my point in saying that is if the final plat which is kind of more his stuff is going to take him into January then in a way the mixed blessing is I don't you know even if it was ready I would kick the can because I there's no part of me that wants you guys to make a hasty decision and one that's made where you haven't got all of the facts based from Sunday right so we can you know proceed forward over these next couple of days and set up I don't know how how you guys want to get it but uh but I would love to continue the dialogue to share with you you know all of what that is and I think and then you guys got to still talk I but catch going back up now that I'm Babble this stuff regarding um how do you say services for the captains over here and and all this stuff to the extent that those things can be understood from a monetization p uh you know if you are invoicing them how much does that invoice and and just say that look we we've already you know if we if we're break even on this Bond and you guys would have to go into your pocket we would take we'd have to take on that responsibility to say you know keep these calls down because we're paying you know we pay for those Services um you want I can I can provide that number for it's $152,000 a year for one officer in the city of Dayton but that's so you see that $200,000 number there that pays for that one officer that we need I swear to God two hours ago I just hearing the governor what do you calling his name he's putting all kind of money into training did you know this lots of police officers putting up money to bring them in pay them salary while they're learning and then putting them out into the force so they're just running for that aren't they Paul go after go after that's also fulltime understood yeah right so the please tell me you do not plan on anything near a full time amen no we're how many units are in Phase One 180 180 and you figure two people per unit yeah depending on family size one and a half or you know something like that Ian yeah and how about phase two and phase two probably about double same the same thing but this will be um you know the the the phase two is going to be a little bit more family uh oriented two three bedroom more Town housy um are you selling the town homes or renting them no everything is uh income rental y I'm Pro I can provide whatever information the council needs I was trying to provide an update based on information this morning which basically we need to close on January 8th I'm trying to get information to the council as best as possible I understand it was I think the important part here is we don't need to decide this right now sounds like if the developer's okay with except as of this morning it was we need to decide that so that's why that's an update from the developer that's easier for us to all understand so that I can get you guys more information CU I'm happy to provide I only had it since uh 10:00 a.m. this morning so when would it get decided then because the next I'm going to say real because the next one's not next one's in January yeah this January 14th which is after his deadline yep it would be likely January 28th because I would not like to put this in front of the brand new Council on the first meeting after not even again having no background I'm happy to have another discussion on January 14th well but I don't want to put a final plat of this magnitude on January 14th and say decide on this on your first meeting right entire year or entire career we we could except we could we could have a work session we could y to have one those could hammer out something like that and we could have ERS show up and show us some crafts and tables Ellers probably to to help us walk through what are you know what do these scenarios look like okay if we yeah if we get our get our heads around this number yeah right which is the is what we're struggling with right now because this is what you know this is totally get it live that we're kind of hearing this so you know for me in particular I I need to see the numbers you know and and I'll check your math people have been around me no I'm going to do that right but I need to look at some other understand what our options are in this when I when I say you know General obligation bond for $2.5 million and I'm doing math in my head which gets dangerous but that's like a like 4% on our on our tax rate and we sit and argue about $10,000 for half a meeting so he's not joking we do right so when it when it comes to the levy you know we're pretty sensitive to that and I would like to understand you know what other options we have in ways to do this if this is the real number um you know I need to know what you know what's our best option in terms of doing it you know or not doing it which none of us want to want to do everybody here wants this project I think that the the new council members would be supportive of that some of them are in the room tonight which is great um some of them one of them is in the room tonight sounding like I'm talking about a crowd but you know but but we need a little time to to work through this I certainly do this is not a decision I'd like to make on the Fly and and we are setting some pres precedence this is a big project for Dayton maybe the biggest we've had um you know unless you count empty warehouse space but that's a different kind of so yeah so in in preference of that the crg building you're referring to would be technically the biggest project we've ever done um there's a little difference in that one with just obviously the commercial industrial aspect but we also kind of double utiliz that project for having uh Tiff project that we did the roadway with with Road and then also had them put in an extension of dayon Parkway we can't do that with this project cuz that would be a simple ass that I would say we do the same thing here because we did it there um this we can't do tiffon because it's residential because it's residential and we can't do Economic Development on residential you can only do that in Greater Minnesota so you knew a batement you can't if you do Tiff in a green site that's undeveloped then you have to be affordable and yep so doesn't matter if it's on our side or his side it has to be then we would then trigger him and he doesn't want that anyway so but I think you're going to run I think you're going to run into more issues though is if you know in the future as Dayton Parkway gets extended trying to get developers to pay for that and what does that look like so David I think your point there is some precedent that will be somewhat accepted in this not that we have to follow it but yeah yep I think you're right okay um yeah I don't like I said it almost seems like I'm good with more discussion if that's what the council wants and as long as because we're all on the same page I'm good with it provide as much information as the council can swallow so yeah I'm I guess just trying to schedule something around the the new the two new members so we could have a work session I don't anticipate a lot of things happening on January 14th there'll be the typical swearingin and the typical appointments and everything else but nothing major we could do a work session after their swor in well we can have one before Oh you can have one before too before their swor in as well that's what you want to do that's fine with me we can play it by year if you'd like to Mayor yeah okay yeah the work this I well I can even just give you copies if you want for taking home but we I'll connect with Mr Ellers and get you guys we he and I they he has already asked me you know project one project two project three sources and uses how we spent you know how much does it cost and then I did a 15-year perform of not five 10 15 for each of these phases and he can you know the good news is I'm a perfectionist and really with Ma I just I'm nuts with it so you guys can as deep and you want I can you could come in and audit and I got it so I'll help you with it and and to all of your points um I as I shared with the the guys this morning you know and I reiterated I would like to make sure that you guys have a sound set of of real solid financial information like you were sitting shotgun with me and we're making a decision together on a you know on a on on a project that you know we got a $2.5 million you know risk associated right which is the go thing but you know anyway I'm happy to give it to you whatever questions you have I welcome it I'll try to get this to you you know if you will in December I'm leaving cuz I anyway the schedule's I'm leaving out of town I'm going on this vacation starting on the 14th to just I know it's I don't want to go but I I mean I do I want to go so let let me save you here the quick answer is you won't get an answer by the eth right so as long as okay with that then we're good to go and yeah I want to give you stuff before I going away and then we yeah all right okay okay thank you sir is there anything else good no thank you all happy day very much so does this need to be tabled or what are we doing discuss discussion I did not want any mayor ccil I not was not looking for any action tonight I was just looking for General discussion if there was a general consensus what the information was used for us to be able to put into the development agreement that's what we're using this discussion for there was no set approvals toight so um we will stay in touch VI updates or something just so we know yep I will provide all the information that I get from the developer and I'll also work with um Jason arsal with Ellers to get all the information that you guys need um I know that we have it already I just haven't put it together and I already have all the information and again was not on the same page as the developer was so I apologize about that um but I will get that all information for you and then I will plan on having we'll tentatively plan for a work session on January 14th before the council meeting just to Hash this out so we're all together on the same page and any information is needed after that we'll follow up that way it gives us extra meetings we're doing that we have to have cake deal why is why a cake I need to get something out of my birthday more than just okay happy early birthday sir wow I mean a special visit just for you he M four days after that we can have two cakes two cakes two Costco cakes this Costco and ice cream it's conflict of interest okay oh let's not go there all right on to item n good evening mayor members of council before you is the resolution 68 2024 and 69 2024 adopting both the final Eda HR Levy and adopting the final city tax levy I will stand for any questions I did not have any time to put together any slides today because I was dealing with other items all day today so I apologize about that but um all the information is in your packet um all of it's back in the TNT meeting I will certainly go back there so you can we can go through slides if you'd like to um but I will stand for any questions that you may have Okay who wants to go first I got one little comment it's just a little comment not not super big deal but where I'm a little bit disappointed and I started looking over some of the numbers and I probably should have caught it two weeks ago um the uh Activity Center is getting $54,000 more next year than last year this this year that's correct and I let it slide and thinking well maybe all of a sudden just because it's on the plan doesn't mean that we're spending it but all of a sudden it happened that way in because we're talking about something here shortly I just what what are we what are we referring to the uh activities the part times activ Center person yep we did everything in our power C moronic to hire that person as part-time I will tell you that um hiring this position has been extremely difficult to find a qualified candidate that's willing to work part-time at 20 hours a week um that doesn't want full-time pay and and so um I'll give you a little background we hired somebody as part-time had them all slated to go I received a resonation from them 2 Days Later based on a family family obligation and have been struggling ever since trying to figure out what the next thing we're going to do um we had two qualified candidates in the last interview round the other candidate that I had called back and already said we are picking somebody else I had to call them back to say we'd like to select you and now they said I won't pick part-time because I can't take that much of a pay cut after I did all the math so the only way for us to get a qualified candidate was to do part-time with Benefits I will say that that was not the goal of City staff and any of the conversations we had but the only way to get somebody qualified in here I can repost but it doesn't look great for I just do not see right now this this City's got I think not more than six events a year I don't think it's more than that I will say I could be dead wrong had it's five or six when we had Teresa there was no way she was feeling even half her time I will say that we are I will have a discussion with Marty Tomorrow based on some conversations that I'm so six events is 173 hours for each event there is no way anybody is spending that kind of time on an event it's not possible unless for 100 of it we also could utilize them towards some of the Public Works time too so it's not like it's only going to be since there's individuals underneath Marty um they're going to be in the public works department every day anyways um unlike um Teresa when she was was on her own at the activity center every day with no supervision she was just on her own this position will be underneath Marty in his office every single day so we can utilize her in a different resource than just activity center but I would like the activity center stuff to get improved and we did put $155,000 extra into supplies for more events next year that includes at least five grand for band work or whatever you want to call it you can't buy for five grand I said it least five grand I don't remember what the number is but it's it's $155,000 more it's so it's not just uh salaries that's the increase can this person also help get our social media presence I mean we've got an app that never very ear ever gets pushed to yep I mean it's knowbody events like I think it'd be good if we could get this person to do more than just plan an event but actually like take some of the pressure of Kelsey she can devote more time to the app and getting it up to where it needs to be that's person already though well we're thinking this well I haven't had this conversation with that this has been just because of the fact that I literally called her yesterday and she accepted the job so this is all very very new so you're saying there may be some floating correct there may be some that I can do some floating time between the public works department and Activity Center department so that she's not just sitting around doing nothing she's able to do more than one job and cover more than one base at one time mayor members of council if I will I will say for Holly Dayton Alone um between myself Chief Inga Amy and others it it took a lot of time to plan so I don't disagree one person on just that event Alone um you throw in the other things that we're trying to get to um it it does take a fair amount of time um granted there could be some time with you know improving Facebook and that stuff as well or work with Marty but um from my perspective it took us a lot of time to pull off Holly dating the other night so I will say again that that was not the goal of Staff but we utilize the resources that we had to be able to make that happen and I'd rather have somebody qualified in here that part-time with benefits than somebody who's not qualified for the job Andor won't make what we think could be a really great position if we take that part-time role so I'm looking for quality over quantity I have one more question for you you posted the job as part-time correct I did do you do you think if you reposted the job as part-time that benefits you get different applicants and maybe even better not that I don't know anything about this individual we don't see the applicants we don't see the resumes we have no clue we're just hiring who stff recommending but do you um is it worthwhile trying to do that or not well this other person's already hired well I guess I mean he just said she's already hired before we even approve it she's hired well has experience and qualification that we would get the same applicant in this Cas um not saying that we wouldn't get others or might still recommend her but um I mean there's no spreadsheet on what she's going to do for the for those now all of a sudden you're going to go to 277 hours description and there's no there's no spreadsheet on what she's going to do I mean here give me give me 55,000 bucks and I'll spend it that's basically what you're asking asking me to do is I'm going to put that number in there and I'll come up and I'll spend it somehow I understand if Marty can use seven or 8,000 of it and not hire that person he was talking about I get that I understand that so that that would be the goal likely next year would be cu the idea was not to have them be part-time with Benefits that was not the goal we put that in the budget based on the fact that we had previous person in that role that said we're going to expand that role and that was in October when they left mhm um and so it was okay maybe we can leave that money in there to be able to have extra supplies maybe we can do more things next year we can do more events again the budget's based on a full Department level not so much on per Life um so that might be more money to be able to put towards bands or towards bigger events or something I'd just like to sorry Z I just like to say um when Danielle was here she would really help with the park commission stuff as well so it's not all just about planning events it's you know researching stuff for for me and pulling Park commission packets together putting getting the minutes and all that stuff solded out so there it's not just about you know putting on events there's a lot of other background stuff that was going on there as well I understand but she was doing Danielle was doing it in 20 hours now all of a sudden we're asking for more and it's the $10,000 in more the extra 12 hours it's only 10,000 bucks a year it's the benefit package that you're thr that's the big thing that's the big thing the benefit package is worth more than the money I don't disagree but that was in back to our preliminary budget yep in April adding benefits to that position so it's the extra hour or the new hours that's and I understand the benefits are commenor to that so that the cost goes up along with the hours right um but but we did we did have that in front of us add adding benefits to that position and it's still down from the full-time position that we had with the previous person um even with this how about you mean the 32 with benefits as opposed to 40 is that what you mean right another another question that I have and this is just a question I'm looking for the answer it's on a different subject the two full-time fire department guys yeah all of a sudden we go into this for 6 months or whatever the number is are they on a probation period so that all of a sudden 8 months from now Gary's got to say okay John and Tim you guys are gone we can't keep you is that a possibility or once we have them are we stuck with them I'll have Chief answer and then I can respond I guess Council want like any clarification I mean uh I mean is are we terminating them because we don't have the dollars to support them or we terminating them because um of poor performance I guess I'm not understanding the question po poor per performance you wouldn't need I mean if that's what happens that's that's what happens right no if the program doesn't wash out the way we think it's going to okay now I now I better understand what the question is um so like as I said last meeting true transparency is that um the program may or may not work and what I mean by that is that the full-time people will work out I mean we'll have staff to cover those calls it might be one person and then we' have to rely on call backs but the the part that I talk about may not work is if for the most part that I know is everyone is interested in the program that's currently within the organization what I mean by the part that it may not work is if let's say over time and this can happen anywhere any place is if people choose to leave the organization because I their life Chang down but they're doing that now that's not we lost few months that's nothing different than what's going on now no it's it isn't anything different so I do have a plan for that outside of the way it's set up currently so let's assume that we have staff that leave because whatever the reason is the next step in that process is we expand the duty CER program to those that live no more than 20 minutes away like I'm required to live within 20 minutes and then because we're paying $30 an hour and we're in police fire Pera that opens up a whole another group of people that are probably going to be interested in becoming firefighters the city day because the only reason the duty crew doesn't work is we don't have staff to cover the hours right correct correct so what you're saying is all of a sudden something were to happen like the ATO Firehouse opens and we lose of people we need more people there's options to help expand that yeah so the the next plan is like I said open it up to people that don't reside in the city of Dayton and that's happened the city of Brooklyn Park it's happened at um Plymouth it's happened many places in order to fill those gaps so that's why being fully transparent I I don't know what people's lives it should hopefully provide structure for them and give them a little bit more um ability to schedule themselves um but then the next step in that is we would open up the next step after that if we run out of people we're looking at full-time firefighters there's only so many steps in this process before we get there but that's legitimately kind of how it would all play out oh to clarify the answer is yes we can get rid of them we'd have to replace them with equivalent time to be able to cover the cost if that's what the case was but if they're not po if they're poor performing then right then then they're no different than every employee has hired here is a oneyear probation period so they can be terminated for any reason Under the Sun based on the one-year probation period does that answer your question or I yeah I assume you're not asking Scott because you plan on just cutting the position halfway through the year as a coun but you're asking because you've got other concerns correct right no I hopefully it works out that's a I think it's I think it's personally I think it's premature but I'll roll the ball and give it a shot I mean but I'm saying that I hope we're prepared if it fails if it fails there to there's really yeah there's really only two options it's we have to hire more people decision falls on us and that would be Duty Crew model so you have to expand the duty crew model and then hire more mercenary firefighters essentially which would be people from outside the city to come in and cover the cost replace that position or um you know that that would be kind of the couple of steps we have mhm yeah so mayor members of council councilman L that that's truly what it is I mean it's a step process to get kind of you know C with a shot looking for a plan but ultimately I in my head I know what the plan is and and because I've lived that plan multiple cities go through this um we're very unique in the state of Minnesota where we have more volunteers than we do or part-time staff whatever you want to call them than we do have full-time firefighters communities of our size with a number of calls in other communities in Wisconsin elsewhere Iowa whatever are full-time and so that's just a cost that's um covered by the expense of the community but for me to try to minimize that expense for us now is kind of the step process but again because we're asking for people's spare time um there isn't any guarantee if you will as we continue to increase calls um I'll have um you'll have it this week uh for your for the packet is the call volume for the year right now we're projected to be 606 calls it's roughly about 9 to 10% year-over-year our call increase so as I continues to increase obviously we get more calls so with a staff station um I can cover more calls and interrupt less people's lives and hopefully that and the 30 bucks an hour that we're offering along with police fire per hopefully that is the opportunity to keep the plan so to speak a little bit longer um over a period of time before I have to come back to council and go I don't have any options other than we need to move to full-time fire I'm pretty much done diso B done well I will I've said this in the past and I'll say it again I think our Capital Equipment jump was too high I also the activity person I haven't liked from the start because there's no way we have enough activity for that person I don't even think half time but I mean it would be nice if we could somehow spread that person out um and does that person know that that's going to happen not necessarily but they'll realize that there's no there's not enough and currently energy quids well there's currently there not enough work to be able to do that job 32 hours a week um we expanded it we wanted to expand it to continue to expand it but without having any background knowledge it's kind of just a catch up and go kind of thing um we'd love to have more activities that's the ultimate goal of community events but I'm all for it yep everyone's all for it it's just how do we plan them how do we get people involved and that's going to take time um in the last position had that and we were hope that we hope that it would continue to move forward so I I think we made really I would say we made great strides with Danielle she did a great job of bring the pumpkin thing was great the Hol all the things that we are are now continuing to do are things that she brought forth so hopefully this new person can take those and expand upon them and find new ways to engage your community have more activities I don't think it's out the realm if she's got the time to have more activities and if all of a sudden we can't get more activities in then if we can split across Marty I think it makes sense I I yeah yeah I get it we don't have the facility to have the activity yet right not corre we don't a facility larger than you know you want to have a th000 people we don't have a facility for that we don't even have one for 500 you got um outoor yeah you know while while our tax rate is going down a very tiny amount the average amount where that the city is getting from residents is going up um how do you calculate that the tax until we hit the what I've been calling the Legacy tax rate they will pay more so if if we tax at the capacity increase yep the valuation of their homes causes them to rate a bigger check even though we keep the tax rate the same correct but how how can we control the valuation of somebody's we can't but we can't control how much money we take yeah and that is a function of the rate and the value yeah we can't control the value but we can control how much money we take but can you tell me one thing in your life that has not changed value over the last two years um well like I guess um was think's gone down but I mean no I I I don't disagree but I I just think that we can I I think we can do better I mean we had this incident come up with the capacity and suddenly we have 400k we just may disappear so I think we can work I think we can work on reducing that number disappearing I think yeah it went to it went to capital capital items all the capital items I'm just saying that we we can make it happen um and and it doesn't take much sure and I don't think you know we're talking about going up 11 and a half% I mean l24 y yeah telling everybody you know residents that hey um um we asking for 9% that would still seem to be a you know a good jump in expenditures because their expenditures didn't do that so I'm just saying that I I just want us to stay at that Legacy rate for a bit I I agree that at some point you you have to say we're we're we're done um but I I don't I don't think we're there yet and the I I'll reiterate this that whole $30 an hour thing was based on uh something that turned out to be false the concept of Simply increasing the hour late for other reasons was never discussed um I don't disagree that the the firefighters May deserve a pay raise however a 75% increase is a big jump and if we're going to do it just because I I think we should had some discussion on real reasons behind that because the reason behind that disappeared so I the whole thing just was not very well thought out and I guess that's that's where I'm at yeah go ahead David you it's not I can see youe I'll get i'll get my turn um okay so I guess it's now so I want to reground myself on where where we are are because what I see in the numbers I want to believe I just want to hear them um so we started this journey well I'll start my start with my own Journey on this was that when we talked about what would we what would we want to see for a budget this year and the the number I Flo out with not any um you know not any structure behind it was what is a 10% increase in the budget look like that's where I started um we information we had was that we had at the time was that we had a 16% increase in tax capacity roughly 14% of that was due to new construction what I think I'm seeing in the numbers is even with the adjustment with the fiscal disparities stuff and the you know the decreases in the budget that we talked about at the last meeting um well that doesn't have any impact on this but that it looks like we have a 16.35% increase in tax capacity as a final number is that correct I I don't think so that should be 16.63% unless I got some updated number and didn't update number is that on the resolution or is that on the memo the final tax capacity increase after fiscal disparities yeah so after fiscal disparities it was well below 6 12 yeah yep well whatever our increase is yeah well and those are the numbers that I want to yeah so that I want to clarify because I saw 16.35 on here in our in our packet as the final tax capacity increase oh I did see if I made a clerical order I might have done a clerical somewhere but it should be 16.6 well that's not the yeah the fiscal disparity number ended up being an $800,000 reduction in tax capacity which I can't remember the exact math on it but you're probably pretty close mayor it's probably like a 3 a half 4% adjustment whatever increase we're talking about it's about that yeah it's yeah it's just probably just higher if you Tak 11.24 number 11.24 is the tax levy increase so tax capacity with the adjustment of fiscal disparities out of it it was 16.63% somewhere y it's real close because the rat's almost the same y okay so we didn't get farther away from but the the actual budget increase is the 11 11.2 11% 11.2 that's correct wrote down here and and I understand that the you know the fiscal dispar disparities piece was a late curve in the in the process that you know nobody in this room is to blame for um but we have had an awful lot of fun with numbers over the last eight months in in how we're how we're talking about tax increases versus tax rate you know the cost of things are are this or that you know there's we've got money to recover from a pension fund no we don't and and on and on and so it's been it's been pretty hard to keep up with uh the cups moving around here on on what bucket is it what in um yeah I've I've expressed my uh concerns about the changes in the fire department being premature enough times that everybody knows where I'm at and yet we need to approve a budget and so at some point somebody's got somebody's got to give around this these things uh the process has not been collaborative enough for mon to make me feel very good about it uh it's it's the same proposals we were looking at in April but the numbers are are have been moved around and I I think that going forward I guess is what I'm talking about I'm kind of feeling like done is done on on this year you we're we're we're at the 11th 12th hour on this thing and we need to have a budget for next year so you know I'm on the firefighter thing i' I've come around I said this at the last meeting I'm I don't like it but you know we're going to move ahead and there is the potential for it to have a community benefit I think that's got to be Quantified for us to find out if this investment is working for us and so I'd like to see some things uh and I Know Chief uh Hendrickson you get you've got these numbers we've seen a version of this report but back in August um but there's some more specific things that I would like to see reporting on on an ongoing basis so we get some feeling of is this is this working or not um response times to fires you know that that seems to be a and and I'm not in the business so you know there's there's terms in here that are not familiar to me or to the general public I think when somebody calls 911 the only number that matters to them is how many minutes is it going to be before somebody's at my front door and there's components to that components we don't control but there's there's a there's a number there that that this new model ought to improve okay so I'd like to see that reported on uh time for fires time to fires time to EMS responses uh you know some clarification in and even the reporting and that's probably just the way you uh query the the data uh you know on on how we on how we rank things I went back and looked at the report that um that the chief sent us uh back in August and well for one thing the math doesn't work but past that you know we're it's hard to derive out of some of this on one part of one graph it says there were you know something like 13 fire calls over this period of time on the next one it says there's 108 so what are we calling a what are we calling a fire um and what you know and let's be consistent about about how we're reporting on those things uh one of my concerns all through this process has been where where are we at on uh updating or creating a policy and procedure manual for the fire department I'd like to see that we're making progress on that U also as it relates to Emergency Management we've talked about that since we talked about bringing on a full-time Fire Chief and we need to be making Headway on that it can't be just this new Staffing model that we're that we're working on we have to fill some of these holes that that we've had all all along as it relates to the budget in in general I'm really uncomfortable with some of the things we've done in spending money on a out of a budget that we have not approved and we did it again tonight uh with with approving a higher at a rate that is is not in the current budget it's in the budget that we're talking about right now U the other thing that I'd really like to see out of the the fire department is is what is The Five-Year Plan you know we're getting this a page at a time and you know that's not that's not going to work for me again I'm I'm willing to take it on this go around but I really want to know what our future is with with the fire department with the police department with Public Works I think that we can I think that we can do a better job with mapping some of these things out on what we expect we do it with the CP um you know and it's never it's it's never right but that's every Five-Year Plan I've ever been around yeah is that you know you use year one you you kind of use year two and then you revise it okay but there is one and and we don't have that and those are things that I'd like to see see us get better at and I think the collaboration piece I want to come back to that because we've we've gone gone around this enough times where it seems like you know our input should be taken more seriously on on some of these things and by that I mean in the by way of a revised proposal we saw the same budget four times this summer the same preliminary budget in April in July again in August is you know and and it was the same budget things things did not move around in response to some of the the feedback that we were giving and and I think that has to be taken more seriously um you know we're we're not the experts on most of the things that we deal with but what we are is the voice of the community and if we can't understand it then the people that we represent aren't going to understand it either so I think we have to do a better job with all of those things and and improve our process I want to add to that uh I think one thing where this full-time thing should make should be easily easily Quantified is how many on call hours are we saving that should within three months you should be able to have something on that once once we have them hired yeah oh no whenever it starts yeah no I get that not I'm not saying much I will tell you right now it will not be ready by March April cuz we probably won't even have full-time firefighters by right I'm thinking like whatever no I mean June or May whenever it starts 3 months later we should see some savings on ours for paid onall guys where that reduces and and mayor members of council all you as our calls continue to increase and we have staff station you'll see that cost savings right there just because we'll be able to absorb more calls of PID on we'll only see it if you get it for us if what's that we're only going to see if you get it the chief and I work on that yeah so I guess I councilman Fant I guess I like to make one comment and that's this is that as much as you would like collaboration from us staff would like collaboration from you I've said this numerous times since I've been here and that fact is is that it's hard to answer questions when no questions are asked of me so therefore thank you for the time that you and I spent a couple months ago um trying to go over a few things you're looking for an emergency management plan yep completely agree um but I've been here for two and a half years there was somebody that was before me and whoever was on Council then didn't have any collaboration with them so I'm trying to dig out of a hole but what I really need from all of you up there and our two new council members is that opportunity to have face tof face conversation and I think that only goes for me but it goes for the two gentlemen on my right and my left because that's how we're going to be able to come to a better consensus with everyone on the same page so that you understand kind of what we're trying to advocate for so again your constituents can understand kind of where we're going or where we're trying to go and what we're trying to alleviate by hiring full-time staff or whatever but we don't have that opportunity we had one work session in May when I presented my program and then we had some other conversations a part of council but I think the frustrating part for least me is is during a council meeting I'm only allowed a short time to babble if you will as councilman TRS pointed out one time to me um to try to get my point across and I'm not trying to babble I really want you and everyone at Council to understand what those needs are are and what those reasons are so my request is that we have more work sessions or for that matter I'm not looking for a committee structure but I've said this before when I was in Wilmer we had a public works Public Safety Committee there was two members on that Council or on that committee we sat down we had an opportunity to discuss this amongst that committee and then it was presented to the full council at a later date so we had more opportuni to have those discussions I'm all about communication and transparency I just don't feel that I've been given a fair shot to communicate with you effectively outside of just uh Council meetings so I appreciate the time thank you so this is kind of outside the budget discussion but we did have a public safety commission and and if you know if you guys feel it would be would be beneficial I'd be I'd be open open to Mayor I just uh I have no problem with that I think the problem uh from before is it wasn't maybe from what I heard I wasn't here maybe wasn't what I don't know maybe people had different perceptions of that but of what that was supposed to be so I think that would be a collaboration effort of kind of what that committee would would look like um and then I did have members of the community that were a part of that as well so they were constituents of yours to help advertise what we're looking for least from from my from the fire department um I just think we need to kind of relook at and redevelop collaboratively between Council and Paul and I um what that would really look like I wonder too if that would help to help us digest some of this stuff I believe it would you Dennis and I were both on the public safety commission when it when it existed and and I think the problem with it was it it lacked a clear Charter Cor the people that were on it weren't sure what we should be working on and so we didn't accomplish a lot and you know I think putting it on hold probably probably did make sense but we've more than doubled in size as a community since then I think that um you know there there is a need for it now whether we can get people to volunteer to be on it is a you know is another question but I think there is there is a legitimate need and I think that would help with some of the things that that you share as concerns um with with this process I would uh I would certainly support us going down that road I've mentioned it in the past and I feel like it it has value in a couple of ways we just have to make sure we Define it well so we're not wasting people's time I think I think at a staff level that's at a staff level we've discussed the same thing as should could be great but we need to have clear guidelines of what you're looking for under that commission the last one so mayor member of council I think we're at at that point too as the community continues to grow so there's lots of discussion around Public Safety so like we talk about building a fire station or what's The Five-Year Plan for Staffing and those things and why we need certain things I think that's a huge part of our growing Community Foundation of what I kind of see as how that would move forward um just as a thought process initially but I think that's a great opportunity to provide more collaboration between uh staff and Council I don't know how the I don't know how it was WR before but one thing I heard Gary say was there are multiple people from Council on that commission for it to be successful so I think if we're I don't know how it was structured before but in my mind hearing that it sounds almost more like the how the Eda is structured from a staffing perspective we have some citizens and some city council folks on the commission not just um sitting on the side table quietly not saying anything but really being part of the conversation asking questions because what I find is often times staff does their best to present things but we have more background up here of kind of what that what the impacts of this that and other thing will be and so if they're actively part of the commission it would allow them to Pro help um provide more context that um oftentimes can get lost in the shuffle it was just like the park commission it was five people that weren't and it was just like the park commission and that they didn't have a very clear Charter so again my recommend I'm all for I think it's great if you're going to do it I would recommend that you have one or two City Council like the Eda that sit as part of the commission as well um to help with that that'd be my I I think it's a great idea I just yeah my input having watched the commission's work and how they operate any more okay uh so what you're looking for is two resolutions in front of you on a motion in a second on motion this is for item n m motion a second and Travis will be the second any more discussion you have one one question so a while back I brought forth the idea you know we haven't adjusted the pay for the commissions in I don't know forever and they make not that they're doing it for the pay but you know $300 a year after taxes is barely enough to bring your family out to dinner these days if you have a family of four and so we talked about dou I think the net impact the city was like $4,000 or $3,000 or something like that is there enough room in the budget to s do that if the council wanted to Y is that something we'd be willing to to do as part of this definitely be looking at that stuff you know yeah I especially when you're looking at like planning I know those guys yeah and and the time they spend free meeting yep they got to be spending you know a i' I'd like I'd say probably twice as many hours as they're here um I I I have no problem looking at that and seeing more we can move that because and you're right they they join because they want to be a part of the community but it'd be nice if they could take their family out at least more than once nice din for their service I'm not talking want make we can adjust the budget so again the numbers moving around are no big deal as long as the main number of the tax ly doesn't move well you're looking at 20 instead of $25 you want do $50 for commission meetings for all Commissions in the Eda commiss I just want to be clear yep yep all commissions it' be Eda parks and pl I just want people to know what they're approving to that's why I one way or another you're saying it's about five grand for five grand yeah because not everyone gets paid either so you got all some commission members they just foro to pay oh yeah so it doesn't it's not every single person making I it's probably like three or four grand so I I have no problem with it no I have no problem with it either okay that was one thing I have got a motion a second discussion um okay all those uh board say I I I I guess and those opposed say nay and that would be me so 4 to one passes item o long-term plan yep mayor M Council acceptance of the 2025 long-term plan again as a as a you know preface I know that we've purchased some things on this plan so some of these things are not a plan but um this idea would be the 2025 long-term plan and we'll try to stick at the plan as best as possible this is not written in stone can adjust and amend I know that some things have been purchased off this based on a projection that we have yes is correct the idea is that we try to save as much money as possible we're going to buy it anyways what's the point of waiting um I know that I can speak to Marty's items a 5% increase and next year doesn't make a whole L set for to pay we know we're going to need them but I will stand for any questions that are happening with the 20125 long-term plan any doesn't matter okay it really doesn't matter I will look for a motion in a second then I'll make the motion a second any more discussion all those in favor say I I I all those opposed say no no 4 One okay we are now closed session are we we all set for this I don't have I don't have the closed session thing we got to read or whatever so yep you have one just oh she put on oh said you put on the agenda yeah it's on the agenda yeah it's it's not nearly as long as fantastic cuz I didn't do that sorry any need the rescue look at that wonderful got it while he switches everything over do we have 2 minutes for V break or not yeah do you need to read your thing before you need to read your thing before you go into the post don't we have one more thing before uh that hiring thing hiring that's in that was in was it really so we approve that you voted for it Scott okay so you did 5 you're saying just this Amy this this I just got it today how can it be so I'm just saying that the one I had last time I'm going to take myself out of that we will uh and we need a motion to go under this right do you want to amend your motion a motion motion to close the meeting pursuant to Minnesota statute 13 d03 for labor negotiation strategy purposes sweet all motion okay I'll second second discussion I don't think there is AC that okay all those are fa say I I say says n because he doesn't like M motion motion pass okay I'm going to take a bath and break e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e so if there are any objections will we uh adjourned good in mirr are one comment all night on recording of course e e e for