for e e work session for May 28th all right uh good evening mayor members of council thank you for joining us today um thanks for anybody who was able to look at the ladder truck i' appreciate the city of Delo for coming out and sharing that letter truck with us um Gary Henderson Fire Chief will be leading the meeting um you any questions let us know along the way and end it away take you chap thanks z uh mayor members of council thank you for uh taking the opportunity to come and visit with numerous things as it relates to the fire department um kind of the first thing on the docket is uh Arrow proposal um this piece of equipment um is needed on for various reasons as it as the community continues to grow um safety for firefighters uh obviously um inability to pull our ground ladders So currently if we have a 35t ground ladder it's labor intensive for us um it takes four people we can set up this ladder with uh one to two people um also the other thing is we get into a topography as it relates to if it's in the winter or even in the summer on a 35 ft ground ladder we have to be about 70° angle so we're getting up maybe two and a half stories with that so that's kind of where ISO Insurance Service offices um talks about the iso rating where it comes in as it relates to um insurance and we'll get to that here in a minute um inability extinguish fles from elevated position this comes into play with are apartment buildings um that come into play as well as any industrial buildings I've had numerous fires throughout my career that have been um elevated and need for a master stream uh the particular truck that you saw from Delano um has capabilities of 2,000 gallons per minute um more than likely we're not going to usually use 2,000 gallons or 2,000 gallons per minute however if you look at the cubes building in that capacity it definitely could be depending upon what's on fire inside but it doesn't know how much does it hold uh typically a ladder will hold 300 gallons of water or less so you're hooking up to a HD we're hooking up to correct or we still can operate off of a draft right um we're just going to be numerous we need to be really honor game as it relates to that um the last thing in this slide is the iso rating um I have that on the next slide so for those that are not familiar um ISO has done every 5 years the last time that that this was done um as the slide States this is actually our rating currently as of today 49.0 n um that's effective October of 2020 um what comes into play with that and it's kind of hard to see but talks about emergency Communication Center points um we don't have a lot of I'll start at the bottom we have not a lot of control of that because we're dispatched by henen County communications however they give us a fair amount of points because they do a good job for us um in that capacity we look at Water points um that has a lot to do with Morty and and public works and where water is located where water is not located um and then Community risk reduction um that's fairly low for us right now um if you remember the presentation that Amy luck had put together a few Council meetings ago um Community risk uh of the name of a company but uh that's going to come into place to help with resources um to assist with um repetitive Medicals as it relates to um one individual that we have on Dayton River Road that we go to on a regular basis uh to help with mitigate some of those uh calls over and over again so that's falls under that risk reduction and then our fire department points coming back to the red um fire department points are based upon apparatus the types of apparatus that that we have um it also goes to our training um this is where and we're talking about it here in the next part of the presentation but the training facility uh the training facility would gain us a fair amount of points under ISO under the fire department points um as well as our training our maintenance records and so forth um all fall under under the red category when we talk about this specific piece of apparatus in conjunction with our um engines um you need to have an engine and or aerial within five road miles of that address that you're responding to so right now in a lot of the unhy in areas within the community we're rated a 10 I haven't you everone here would probably know far better than I would but um my experience in Wilmer with those uh places that are rated a 10 um some insurance companies won't write those policies because of the fear of if there's a a lack of emergency response to their home if it was on fire I had the same kind of thing when I was in Wilmer Wilmer Township um did not have water either we relied on our tanker operations um they won't write an insurance policy for the city or the home owner for the homeowner in some capacity some insurance companies at the same time be clear as that for instance State Farm and I have State Farm at my house State Farm does not recognize ISO mine doesn't there yeah and it depends on who it is no they depend on on different you know their experience with fires and and so forth so it's not all based on ISO make sure that that's clear but this is something that does come into play for a lot of insurance companies probably maybe more so on the commercial side than maybe the residential um but it does come into play this is just an example this isn't specifically Dayton this is a community and granted it was California and I cut off part of it I apologize it should have the ratings over on the left so if you're looking at um as it says homeowners rates do not increase below a class of five that's I looked down the packet I'm like I don't understand this table get more yeah no I apologize on the left hand there's one little column that I neglected and a good reference I couldn't find again so I apologize but what it's saying is that if that's your cost of your house across the top that is your insurance rate um at starting at a a nine and going down to where we're seeing a five so you can roughly see 894 to 373 and this is an example in a in a community in California nothing related to here but just to try to give you an understanding of kind of how that could impact everyone's insurance and this is a uh residential home valy not commercial properties you look at the ISO ratings how do we compare to neighboring states so for instance 49 good or bad or okay that's what I'm trying to yeah so 49 is not not great we you can go up to 10 10 I think so we're at the middle of the pack well it depends are we a d or are we the middle of the pack cuz it's curved to a c that's question are we an F or are we curv to a c that's what I'm trying to understand is where do we sit compared to other communities like where's Maple Grove where's Champlain where's go Rogers well they're all bigger so I mean only makes sense they'd be higher yeah Maple girl they have what I'll call residential fire station so driving five miles from that is pretty much going to cover a lot of that area so now the less or ISO full-time staff comes into this as well they the ability to respond out the door in a timely fashion right um you know the standard is about 6 minutes um 1710 172 is really as fit will'll talk about a little bit tonight is right around that four or five I'm here to tell you that no one meets that four to five minutes anywhere I mean there might be maybe New York some of these huge fire departments yeah if they block away right but under normal circumstances um not at all so we because nothing to do with what the city has done or the community has done it's just based upon pretty simplistic things such as water supply and if we need to truck that in because if we have to truck that water supply in our response is significantly reduced based upon timeliness of that fire especially as fire doubles in size every 30 seconds it used to be every minute it's come down based on the um Plastics that we're seen um in everyone's home you know pretty much everything you see in this room so how does this compar to neighboring so neighboring so give an example um Maple Grove I think they're sitting around a three okay um and that's because they have four ladders and they have 16 full-time staff I believe pretty well built out champ SEO Rogers seagull not because they don't have a fire dep yet so they're at 110 they at 110 okay they're but they're being serviced by oo associated with G or Rogers in that capacity Rogers you know I I don't know um with where I was at Brooklyn Center they were sitting at a three Brooklyn Park is now a two again they have full-time staff you know bigger cities but that's overall kind of and as we evolve as the last part of the presentation that talks about the St different Staffing bottle um I think ultimately we're going to get there at some point not tomorrow but over time so 49 it's comparison to a three I know we shouldn't I'm going to say we probably shouldn't be at a three we're not that size as be able to do that but 49 seems high then is that the no I would say that it's it's it's low because we didn't have a lot of things in place you had no full-time Chief you have two full-time Personnel right now so the number is actually lower than this you think today no it's higher sorry we would we want to go higher with that number the other way um yeah I would say that this number is higher I think I got lost with that so you said Maple grov I was a three yeah so when you go I'm sorry so a 10 is the worst one is the best oh that number is not that 49 is not those are just points accumul oh so I was how many equivalent 49 points Maple gr is yeah and they don't that's okay so what number are we then in dat we are a four and a 10 so if you have water supply we're listed as a four the rural part of the communities where we do not have any water we're listed as a so I apologize Maple Grove's a three Brooklyn Park Brooklyn Center's like a two yeah okay yep and so I apologize that it's confusing they have a specific formula that they don't give to us we just give them the information it's a proprietary formula that I have no understanding of how they get to 110 okay and how often do they redo this Gary this every five years so we are due here uh in 25 next year so can we see this number for other cities or we limited only seeing what our number is I can only see what we have it's I have a lot this is our specific excited to log in I saw your name in the upper right hand corner I assum as much but I didn't know if you could C A Drop down see other cities no yeah the best that they do is they give you you might be able to find it on a Google search what Maple Grove is or and so forth and that isn't actually very easy to find out either so this information is from four years ago then it is from 4 years ago yeah so obviously we've made numerous changes since then um we have better recordkeeping training records all that stuff probably increased um with two full-time staff um that number has gone up um but as of today um it's a four and a 10 our official rating that doesn't get updated till next year correct Y and then I do want to make sure everyone notes it it says there is zero number of three-story buildings in this city and that is not true anymore anymore right so in 2020 they was Zero but since then we've had two apartment buildings the cubes building Graco build two Graco buildings Capital Partners Inland and those I think those are the six or so that are listed as number of three story buildings so okay so that'll be impacted that will also impact your number down negatively so AAL cost um I budgeted uh 3.6 for 2028 cost if the purchase was uh if Council approves would be for 2024 with delivery in 2028 would be 2497 again very similar to our tanker um our engine tender no money is due until we take delivery we anticipate delivery probably early 28th um the earliest would be December of 27 um again discounts are available if we prepay that was offered in the um contract for roughly $200,000 thereabouts um and then of course we still have that ability to get discount so let's say that in two years um something changes and the city wants to prepay some portion of the latter end or chassis at that time um it would be a pro-rated rate at that time so there's still that opportunity to do some prepaid payments if we chose to otherwise we can just pay the 2.4 um upon arrival and what's the uh so if we prep the chassis and there was something else the ladder portion the ladder portion that what does that do for us that's where we would if we pay for those two things that's where we're getting uh that 200 Grand off and actually I would probably say it's not going to be the full it'd be a lesser portion of that because if they just pick the chassis AP and that I know in past purchases from other manufacturers um you get 3% 4% it kind of depends on kind of no different than what Zach had competed last time for the engine tender um on how that works out so they put the full boat in there I think it's 204 and change um if that's something council's looked at or was interested in that capacity otherwise there's no cost I you just run those numbers right yeah I just run the numbers and let you guys know but at this point we don't have the cash or available I mean we have the cash available should say bonded right huh it would have to be bonded it have to be bonded for if we wanted specifically for this obviously we can move money from any fund and move it in here to do this onetime purchase but and again it's hard to do a I want I say once one I purchase one I purchase now it'll probably be replaced in X number of years after that so I would recommend doing that at the current time and a bond right now is what four and a half 5% about 5% okay any other questions as it relates to the aerial in itself or anything that I may have presented what do we expect the utilization to be on it I wish I could directly answer that um honestly because a majority of this is going to be used on specific incidents fire incidents could be rescue this truck does have the ability as I said to some um extend out 100 feet and then go negative 15 to 17 degrees so if there was a portion of the river that we could catch with it um it could go there at least down a grade um in that um effect a res structured fires let's just talk about regular structure fire at a Jonathan or Hansen Brothers Homes that we have nearby um right now I can't make the peak of those house are 35t ladders if I need to get on the roof so the likelihood of on a structure fire um being used it's going to be used quite a bit um these pieces of equipment are don't go out the door as much as obviously our engines this piece of equipment and the one thing I didn't say on kind of on that note councilman is that with this P purchase of this piece of equipment this would actually round out um apparatus for Station 3 in the future there wouldn't be a need to purchase any large pieces of apparatus or Station 3 and the thought process behind that is is we have engine here that engine will come before Council probably in 26 to get replaced in 2030 the engine tender will remain when that comes that'll be at station one engine 12 would move to station three along with this uh aerial device so that pretty much rounds out any big significant 2 million $15 million purchases as it relates to um large pieces of so the question I asked the gentleman from McQueen was I was reading the contract when I talked to Zach he like you could cancel it whenever no big deal get your money back but the contract doesn't read that way but he did say he'd be willing to change the contract to read that if we cancel it in point in time as long as we don't cancel with them and then go to Company B and buy the same exact thing that they're okay writing the language that way cuz CU my concern was we put the order now and then they still charge us a cancellation because that's how it's written today so if we do decide to move forward we need to get them to change the cancellation wording to be more accurate to what they're willing to actually offer us yeah and they've done that there's been a a jurisdiction nearby that it may have worked that before that had placed an order for trucks and they ultimately had to cancel afterwards and they were able to cancel with no issue my guesses that could turn it and that's what he said we can turn it I just want to make sure that that we have the wording properly in the contract right now going do that we'll it that way exactly I agree said would if that's what we said before yeah so David it's it's a hard gauge to say how often we would somebody's got to lose before you need it that's how it works yeah I mean reality that's how hen County works right we have mutual Aid agreements with Rogers and Maple Grove how often do we call for their ladder truck so we are set up in a box alarm system so current C ly right now when we get a confirmed structure fire within the city of Dayton we get a ladder and two engines from another Community now with that being said sometimes the ladders are available sometimes they're not depending upon maybe they're deployed on something maintenance issues um we've run into in that capacity I know often the people say well why don't you just rely on your neighbors to utilize their piece of equipment and my response to that is I don't think the tech taxpayers or Rogers always wants to send a piece of equipment at their expense to our community know a mutual Aid not a big deal but the frequency of the use where we can utilize it in our own City without additional resources is pretty significant we get into often we may get an HVAC unit on top one of these large buildings so they get a burning smell inside the structure and we're forced to try to go to the roof um that doesn't mean that there's not as you've been up on graco's facility with everything that goes on up there we do have abilities to get up there but if we add something where we need to bring tools and equipment it's going to be pretty cumbersome to go in that respect so when we had the fire up on Dayton Road a few weeks ago how long did it take for uh ladder TR to come to that one after we were there so we showed up how long till their ladder yeah that one came from Maple first ladder was Maple Grove second one is NOA chaplain I can definitely get the times for for a cat system Can you estimate an estimate or estimate um I I was late to get there right cuz I was coming from Champlain I drove all the way from cub and Champlain got on scene and I was still there probably 15 minutes before the ladder showed up and I actually follow Maple Grove station Maple Grove's ladder in when I came to that fire so I was behind them so Kevin was there before I was and I follow in map gr so I would say probably 20 2025 2025 yeah I mean another big part of this too is your placement of your ladder uh whether it be a commercial or residential getting that lad in the correct placement you know once engines start arriving on we start laying hoses down the ground that kind of cuts off the access points to get to that location so having a ladder there early to actually position in the correct tactical position is key also is that CU you can't drive over the hoses on they already been used okay yep so if we have a Hydra across the street we have to run a hose across from the engine across the street we're now blocking off the entire roadway so being able to get that ladder in position early is is critical okay any other questions as it relates to theal device only question what's is the goal of the work session just to just to have discussion discussion so the idea for the work session was to reduce the comment time that we have during the meeting so we can kind of keep the meeting going if we needed to um so I think You' put this at 25 roughly 2 2.4 so is this uh um is this a how do I put it uh so it's got two axles 10 10 y um is this a kind of standard run-of-the middle ladder truck or have we yep I think one of the complaints about the engines that the last engine or not the last one but the last one we got prior to you was that it got goldplated sure yeah the so pretty much run of the midd there's not a lot of options you can put on this particular piece of equipment um that's from a to M minimize build time um but it's pretty much it's just the sheer cost of all the engineering as you can probably relate to in that capacity so it's not the Cadillac version if you will um that would actually send the truck into what at least that pierce anyways to a different line if you will for a build um so no it's not it's um it's it meets our needs um this one is a mid Mount I guess I can talk about that for a second versus what you may see in Maple Grove or in Rogers which is a rear mount so this gives us a little bit more flexibility and Tighter spaces as we talk about the apartments that potentially coming to the South um even our apartments that we have are here at Bolam um be able to get in and mitigate from the middle of the chassis versus the end of the chassis which can cause difficulties of trying to position that piece equipment to get where we need to go at the end of the day kind of kind of where he's going possibly with that is this one at 2.5 H SEO just ordered one for 1.7 they got a single a single single so did they but that was a couple years ago though what a year and a half ago or so I believe oh there's probably some price increases get that this one's like this one here as you see is was 1.5 and that was five years four four years ago ordered that one in 2020 and paid 1.4 and some change for that same piece of equipment we plan order the same exact piece it's almost the exact same thing we saw there Y milmore and why why would us go with us soon don't know I I'm not sure I have a meeting with the new public safety director coming up I mean they also just bought a boatload of stuff and it could have been that they just wouldn't not Hammer themselves silly all cost but yeah I think they bought everything together but I yeah okay any other questions with the ladder so we can still have discussion at the at the meeting just tried to eliminate or try to have some of the additional discussion here at the work session to kind of cut down some of the council meeting time so fire station training facility property purchase um the triangle as I've heard it's called U tax for fit your property whatever you like to call it um um this is the location that we've spoke about in the past um you know why use this location you know from my perspective I'm trying to minimize the out of- pocket expense for the project overall from the city um we have water and sewer currently available at that location which is essential for the fire department um and or a training facility um easily accessible for future arterial roads so meaning Dayton uh Parkway to get north south we have 81 to go east west and then we have other uh we have Brockton or 101 as well um to get pretty much anywhere that we need to and then minimal impact on surrounding properties in comparison to a residential area I think the thing that's frustrating to some and we experienced a little B of that here in the community as it relates to BRB bur Trails um and their erection of the electrical station um Everyone likes the idea of a fire station 30 seconds from their house when they need it but the other 99.9% of the time when they don't need it they're probably not interested in listening to the sirens and or the other chaos that takes place um surrounding that as well immediately within their um residential neighborhood you don't have to do that you don't have to have the siren going yes you do there's stat so out of Oldtown right now the siren goes off soon as we 2 in the morning or 3 in the morning we hit the road yeah yep law enforcement law yeah law enforcement has the ability if they need to to go code to but we do not have that option when you come back you're allowed you don't have to just on the way there just on the way there yep initial response on the way there um so really not a lot to this presentation is really from my perspective of really U and I know council's some perspectives is like to see something else there I think the fire station can be very inviting to the community as they come in um it's the kind of that Industrial Area um I think this fire station it doesn't need to be the Taj Mahal if you will but I still think it can be a welcoming um coming off the parkway there um I realize that everyone may have a different perspective of it the other challenge that I see is we choose not to go without a piece of property I understand um but at the same time then we're looking at you know one $1.5 million probably to replace this piece of property as it relates to the overall cost of the project down the road I'm guessing that completely ballparking but probably I think Rogers built their station that's currently going up right now for about $12 million um I'm guessing that by the time that ours came around it probably be about $20 million just based on sheer cost of construction and everything else um but from that's why we're looking at I'm like I said looking at those dollars otherwise if we look at the property who's the one that uh the piece of property that was sold and now it's not um uh yeah that's part of Dayton Field's fourth edition right by Capital Partners essentially across the street that wouldn't be a bad location either but I think that piece of property is what one 1.2 1.2 million thereabouts um how many acres is that I didn't see that in the packet I think it well it's not in the packet um that's why I didn't see it that's why I didn't see it yeah so that you know again we're trying to figure out comparables so it's one .2 mil I that's seven in some change I don't know if all of it's usable though cuz there is that pond on the there what you want to call it though east side of the property there so you can't use that so I think it's seven in some change so probably it's it's probably about the same size yeah I was land area b as this tax format parcel roughly right of usable space this this comes down to I think this one's five and some change of usable space on this um tax forer parcel cuz there's a storm water pond on the North side there next to the railroad Y and then we took away a little bit with the parkway itself so when you click out on head of County it's like seven or something or one thing that I that always sticks out of me is that I I always thought it was a mistake to put station one right on the edge of town um I understand kind of what they did they had a piece of property there but I still think it was a bad idea now we'd be doing that same thing we'd have another station so how does that how does that Bode for having a two station City at some point we put one down there yeah so you have that one that ideally station one would close at some point um and then the other location and it's in the Fitch report tonight as well but it would get more centrally located more towards um Public Works in that in that area so you kind of have that um they did show the other one in there if you saw that it shows that bought uh North Diamond Lake y somewhere in there and then moving station two from here somewhere down Fernbrook probably 117th and that capacity so that one looked like it was the optimal for for average time yep those two stations yeah yeah and and that's the thing of when we look at response times I mean a lot of I would say that for us if we are in the fire station or in quarters as we refer to if we can get anywhere within the city in about 8 minutes as we're in the station I think that meets the need of of the the community if you will um and really I think that's something that I would look to members of council because I think that's something that Council has to come up with policy as it relates to what you're looking for for response times that'll be key in that kind of that Partnership if you will with the fire department and making making sure that we're certain of the need needs of your constituents if you will and some response times are an average throughout the city correct is that how you figure them yeah it's pretty much an average so we have a we've gone we've added a new company called Echo dat analytics so it's real- time data this second on everything that we've done it's been extremely helpful for forecasting calls for the rest of the year based on calls that we've got on today to many other things but it talks about the days of week or the most busiest and so forth so it provides a lot of information for us to try to calculate those response SS right now in the fish report I think it says we're about 12 and a half minutes it depends on the type of call I think I looked earlier today structure fires if we have a structure fire or on or at least any fire related codes within our CAD system for about 13 and a half minutes um in mind you the one thing that everyone needs to understand is firefighters have the ability to live up to 10 minutes away from the fire station so that can delay a response dispatch has 90 seconds upon you get the call to dispatch the call that doesn't always happen so if you kind of work backwards or forwards whatever you want to do say you give them the leeway of 2 minutes for that dispatch time the other part that we don't know is how long did it take for somebody to call 911 or they trying to put the fire out themselves or whatever the case may be but um we're seeing from the time of dispatch to arrival about 12 and A2 minutes um which is not a bad you know depending on where you canr up to 10 minutes away I have no issue with that but as we continue to move forward ideally I'd say about 8 minutes up we in the station full-time people seems to be a far bigger impact than where the station's at oh sure does yes I I would agree yeah so that's why I say yep without a doubt um if we have people people that are in the station in full-time they can go out the door in 30 seconds um that we see that today with myself and Kevin and and our part-time inspector Jason we're out the door and then um other firefighters if they're available they're coming back um and often we're were there you know right away or a lot more timely than what we were in the past so we just bring it to look for direction from Council um on kind of what you guys are looking for if we need to look for a different piece of property down the road um that's really kind of what we're we're looking for in that capacity person personally I I'd be on that on that Avenue there to look for a different piece of property and I think I think we talked about that at Council level and there was General support to put something different than a fire station there I don't see why we can't get three or four acres over in that Industrial Area worked into some sort of a deal I mean in in the end you're going to pay for it anyway um but what do you mean industrial area over in that over in that quadrant that over in that same area but same area as the piece you just talked about okay and we don't need seven acres I mean we don't himself said he needs three or four so yeah if we throw the training facility which was key i' would say we're probably about that six it's not huge not so in the training facility yet we haven't seen any real numbers on that yet so far everything's just a dart on the wall correct yeah so to answer your question May Fisher about why they um we also Enis Dayton Parkway obviously continuing to go north over time and so being that this location is right on Dayton Parkway response times would be significantly less as if we have a north south connection so so that's why this spot works better than the than station one's current location CU brockton's never going to expand or D Road's never going to expand to the amount that we're expecting D Parkway to expand to in the future yeah I I think my bigger hangup is simply that just the physical spot the government building right as people get off the and I'd like to see it is guided for commercial I know sure I mean to me to me we're going to as a financial aspect it's going to cost more money to use that forfeited property in the end because to me it doesn't matter doesn't matter if you you paid the $300 application fee to get it versus if somebody's willing to give you a check that money is still in the pot and in my opinion the check that you get from that piece of property is going to be way bigger than what you're going to spend for the property sure yeah I I did run Prof foras for the council to show you what the numbers look like um for training facility time obviously the fire station isn't going to give us any payback besides a better response time or whatever but the training facility those were based on yeah the the training facility going there and obviously doesn't make any sense to put a trading facility on a pre property and then not utilize the full entire land for the full use um so the numbers don't lie of what it is of the training facility would be a better aspect from that piece of property but I know that you may think commercial taxes will offset it they do but they don't pay as much as a training facility would even within number of hours we don't know that yet we don't we don't have any numbers yeah well I mean it depend we could we pull try to pull numbers from any other training facility that's running on any day of the week and Sundays the and so I know councilman truss asked this in an email to me put it out there too is you know in the packet you see five letters of support well I could have a 100 letters of support they don't mean nothing correct there's no Financial as valuable as this piece of paper that is correct I completely agree and because they could tell me today that right and then the bigger portion of the the challenge was is that during a bonding session of course no one got anything out of the bonding session unfortunately um but they some administrators felt it was a competitive their competing against themselves by providing a letter of support if you cuz they're trying to get dollars for whatever they're trying to get projects they had put on their projects yeah um I bet you a dollar you can ask Zach that I bet lots of dollars he's been winning so far not so he's winning so far um but I would say that there there's a huge need for it I mean we like I said we overrun the West uh or excuse the East Metro training facility and then the only other one is the AEL facility down in uh Brunsville so not to get too much off a tangent on that but there there's definitely a need for that that does cycle back into ISO from a training perspective as well so on this ISO thing there there's something that was brought to my attention today um we have a piece of ground in Champlain that if we could get Champlain to cover that for fire coverage that it would drastically reduce your response time your average not I mean clearly if it's in this area versus this area that has something to do with your response time but yeah and so that that particular area of the city has very nominal calls I'll say probably no more than five calls throughout the year the other thing is I think if you take that away because I don't know how ISO calculates but that is a hydrogen area so if I think if they take that that wasn't ours it may lower our score next change numbers elsewhere yeah could change numbers so when it comes to the land if we don't do it here we need to get land I we've been trying to get land since before I was on Council y'all were trying to get land actually we haven't we haven't tried there's money sitting there but we haven't tried to get yeah but you guys had a closed medum on one property on one yeah try to get land you've been trying to get land or no land is needed and you have tried to get land in the past we have to get land it's just getting more expensive longer we wait and so if it's not here it needs to be somewhere cuz we're going to need one sure and so why why are we continuously waiting to get this done that'd be my piece if it's it's not here then we need to plan in a timeline of when we expect to get plan I believe I don't remember what meeting it was but we authorized staff to hire a broker real estate broker and does that happen y are they looking no well we've been kind of waiting for direction from Council again I don't want to spend a broker's time and and efforts to be able to say we'll find a piece of property and then we don't have Direction on this one which is quote unquote free pretty much this one about a month and a half ago yep and so we went back to them and they gave it the same price of what we got so I can go back again that was two three years ago no no no no no I mean as far as the forfeit property oh yeah you guys look at three it was in the PS were in there yeah was three or four properties in 2022 that the council looked at in close session to purchase for I'm assuming uh yeah they're all on 117th y m yep all of them are on 17 one's on the one was on the corner of 117th in West French L the corner two more there was two more along one 17th further towards BR bur Trails there one the corner you had a concern that they seen the city coming correct went up that's when we said go and we did okay well well there's I've commented a couple times and I think that can be worked into a PUD on on any particular deal yeah so that's just a matter of neg at yeah yep okay sounds good I think um for me it's the it's the location that I don't like the economics of it I think can work either way and but I I still feel like that that area off the off the interchange in Dayton Parkway was supposed to be long-term something something more special and I think you can make a really cool looking fire station there I don't doubt that but you're still got the the burndown building on the property someplace that's um not going to be a feature well I mean and I don't disagree with what you're saying we can make it aesthetically appe appealing to where it looks just like the fire station for in that capacity but at the same time the one thing that I want to also be clear on if you will is as far as a training facility and a burn facility the burn facility doesn't look like the house that we're going to burn on Saturday so to speak when it's all doesn't look like that wreck down here on Z or the you're exactly right it it's the burn rooms are contained within the structure and they maybe get a little bit of sit on the outside of the structure and actually the one in East Metro doesn't have any in the burn room that we tend to use on a regular basis so um to just to minimize that in that capacity that it doesn't look like what you might think it would look like I have pictures of ones that were done and they've been done very well for not a huge cost either but I understand what you're saying yeah I just you I'm Holding On by a thread here but I continue to have higher hopes for that stretch of of the road and uh I think that uh you know I I I'm a little frustrated too that that we're not moving or pushing harder on locating some property for that third fire station I think we've been in agreement for some time that that's what we need to do and the training piece of it I think that can continue to be in the discussion but I just don't like it there sure I guess the the question that um to think about is currently right now the dollars that we have that you've allocated I'm guessing that we're probably going to have to go up from there that's going to be yours so that would probably be something and maybe it's if we go out and find something we would bring it back to and go this is what the cost is and just kind of go that direction um but that's I know something that we've been trying to stick with kind of what has already been previously allocated I don't think that'll be quite enough to accomplish what we need to accomplish I think it's five I think it's we had you authorized temporarily to go up from there one up to was it 750 yeah would there be any benefit to I mean when you look at this proposal you're looking at a fire station end training facility or would there be a benefit to maybe pull one do a training facility first and then integrate a fire station later that help thought or just trying to think of like you know what the needs are of the fire department right now and I look at like what you know as a user or as a as an active member like training is always the the thing that we lack most of so feel like there's an interest like maybe there's that training facility piece first before then the fire station and and then to be clear the training facility and the fire station can be at two different locations without a doubt it just again from my perspective if we have a piece of property we can put it on both or not we don't have two land TR to utilize resources as best what does the bird facility do to neighbors other than small is really much in the way noise um you know you've got uh well you heard the truck out here tonight when it was idling um you might get a little bit more than that when we're pumping you might get some Saws and whatnot making some noise um but it's not anything huge I guess if you will or not there's like no Sirens no lights I guess on a regular basis like we're not making that loud obnoxious noise but to his point saws you know all those other things that we use that we'd be training with that would be occasionally there I would imagine yeah and and traffic I think is probably the biggest thing of apparatus going coming in that capacity um but yeah I mean I training facility on the old public work side would be great if we could magically s snap her fingers and get water good that's the our only challenge there you down again there's a lak all right any other questions on this try to keep us on track here all right you we'll look for official direction again at the culture meetings [Applause] mhm so propose fire department staffing change uh I'm just going to hit on this here this is our current Staffing model I'm GNA let you read that may have already read it when I sent it out how do we get here that's probably the bigger picture um we are trying to move uh from the relief Association perspective working with the relief Association and the firefighters um the relief Association is a dated model um this community gets $3,250 per firefighter per year service full retirement at 20 years of service um I don't think for those that are in the room I be awesome if you stayed for 20 years but um for those that are new but I can't guarantee that's just not society today usually we're seeing 3 to 5 years of service so at 5 years of service they're vested at 40% of that 3250 so they're not getting a ton of dollar for their time away from their family and friends um in that capacity so that's kind of how we got to where we are at the moment so with that being said um we receive revenue from the state it's a pass through that um goes to the Fire Relief Association based on fire insurance premiums within this community otherwise new otherwise $ 2% those $% fund their pension the challenge being again is waiting to be 100% fested at 20 years so we looked at what's another option that we could do for Recruitment and Retention of current firefighters and hopefully some new firefighters the idea was to is to pay $30 an hour um right now currently we're paying $17 an hours thank you to council as my first budget here um improved that from I believe $13 something to that effect yeah somewhere as low as 11 yeah and we moved up as you can all tell if you drive by Burger King Dunkin Donuts whatever it is they're paying 17 bucks n equivalent to firefighters in the room running into burning buildings or being away from their families during Christmas Easter birthdays anniversaries whatever the case may be uh the state auditor Rose Hennessy that we deal with that deals with pensions um she said that it wasn't necessarily that we could do what I wanted to do and that was basically take um the revenue and help fund um our pensions but also help fund the hourly rate but what we can do it's kind of a shell game in my mind and talking to Zach it's really the same money we just happen to be moving it and calling it for a different purpose so the idea is is that we want to pay the firefighters $30 an hour and then we're also going to put them into police fire pair of pension the same pension that Kevin and any other full-time firefighter when we look at that that's a contribution of 17.8% of the city needs to contribute to that that 17.8% is going to be covered by the revenue that used to go to the Fire Relief Association that now comes to the city so what that does is is it offsets that pension but it also allows the city to offset Kevin and I's police and fire pension because we have a what we call a n mination Department the caveat to that is is I have to schedule firefighters I ask the state well what does schedule mean there isn't a definition for schedule so the proposal that we're talking about is a duty CW model to a certain extent with full-time fire to full-time firefighters the scheduled model does lots of things for our staff and that's that work life balance I sent you a couple documents I know some of them were linked y I apologize but I think that helps bring home the challenges that we had one document talked about um it was was dated the year 2000 so 24 years later we're in the same position as we were back in 2000 they talk about utilizing part-time staff in comparison to full-time staff in that particular um document um the challenges there what they describe is that part-time staff um is helpful in lowering um cost of salary and benefits but then there's many other challenges that are associated with it that we see here in our organization is we're constantly recruiting trying to retain that recruitment um sometimes it's good sometimes it's bad if I don't have a set of gear for a particular person because of uh the size or how tall they are whatever um that's an added expense um or that's part of the expense that we see and then also training we take them off the street we train them from no fire experience there's the cost associated with that and then let's assume like we've had one person this year we had one person last year um leave midterm if you will as it relates to um becoming a firefighter it didn't work in their schedule I try to really emphasize with members that are interested as well as their families I encourage them to come in and we have a pretty Frank discussion at least for the first 18 months is that it's pretty difficult um on the firefighter themselves once I get past that 18 months obviously then we get into the whole call volume continues to increase um I think uh he's Jeff westendorf that's here tonight he probably saw 200 calls in his time frame here maybe Mark Lu when he was here sometime ago we've increased we're last year at 553 I project we're about 6 40 it has a significant impact on their ability to do their full-time job meet the needs of their family spending time with their kids um and that work life balance I'm a prodigy or unfortunately of that model because I've been married three times my wife currently today understands it and gets it the previous two didn't understand it and it is a challenge for some I know one of the firefighters um that went through the last Academy last year um he's away from his kids quite a bit Brad that's going to be sworn in tonight and um his kids are like oh I get to see Dad tonight and so when we look at a firefighter this is really a trade's job on top of their full-time job so different than an electrician or a plumber we're trying to teach them that in that first 18 months so currently we've got 24ish firefighters um we do have two firefighters on leave um they've opted to take a leave because of some of the things that I just spoke of work life balancer a business owner um other opportunities arose um they're still um out they have an opportunity to um be gone for up to 12 months um but after that 12 months they have to make a decision so firefighters currently and we talked or I talked to the organization the beginning of the year um based on trying to move to the new model get away from percentages we all agreed as an organization that they needed to respond 10 times throughout the month there's some that make their 10 there's some that don't and there's some that far exceed their 10 based on kind of what's going on in their life they need to make four trainings within a quarter they're offered six two of those trainings can be made up online if they're unable to make it to try to utilize um those online trainings um and then we have maintenance nights we try to encourage firefighters to participate that helps with maintaining our equipment as well as making sure there's familiarity with that pieces of equipment as well and then uh education opportunities U National Night Out our open house and then there's other opportunities throughout the year as well that we get asked quite a bit so that's kind of our current Staffing model the proposed Staffing model would uh we' reside here at station two make a couple Creature Comforts of the front office um would be staff from 7 in the morning until 10: at night um that's taking into account um Kevin myself and our part-time inspector and then certain days of the week um we would have we would be covered that covers 78% of her calls between 7 and 10: p.m. at night for 365 days the other 28% is between 10 p.m. and 7:00 a.m. which this last year 3 28 calls I believe were that 78% and 160 if I recall were the 20 the 28% station two be staffed from 9:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. on Saturdays and Sundays with a minimum of Staff two firefighters so there'll always be two firefighters here from 7 in the morning till 10: at night 7 days a week so mayor to your point we have a quicker response at that point in time out the door but um I mean is there enough maintenance to keep them busy or what yeah so there's yep so there's there's plenty of things like this week we've been trying to get ready for a house burn um those things come up we just received uh imitation for NOA Champlin um parade to be in at that time granted that's a little bit because it's out of the city but we do get a lot of things the idea is for them to be busy there's training that can be done online there's maintenance that that maintenance night would actually go away so we want to better utilize our dollars that Council has given us us to use currently right now when we have we roughly have you know six seven eight people respond for Mrs Smith at stubber toe they don't need that many people responding but we're continuing to pay them for the coming signing the name and or getting on the truck and and um trying to help that customer and do we always have to send fire department for Mrs Smith when she stubs her toe well car can you send PD well it's not always available it's it's that balance of resources no I'm just it's a question some of the calls we don't probably have to have fire department go to but I mean I I understand somebody needs to go but right so we're trying to bridge that gap between Paul and I of how many officers he's at has on if they're tied up doing stuff here's a great example the fulse fire that we at Dayton River Road on a Sunday afternoon he had one officer on that's their minimums we needed that officer to block tra traffic on that road um we tried to free him up as quickly as possible he was extremely helpful for the time that he was there and we freed him up but then he had calls stacking up um so I'm assuming Chief you can probably say that maybe Corker and or Rogers came in to help maybe on some of those and you know in that capacity Priority One calls they would help yeah so we have that challenge in that capacity um and just like medical calls yes how do you I guess I'm getting at how they triage that how do you know who you need to send versus dispatch must tell them dispatch it's automatically dispatch yeah the the the problem is this Paul can attest this to any firefighter here yeah what information dispatch get from the caller and what we get when we arrive can be completely different and we might not have the appropriate resources and hopefully we do in that capacity do what you can do yeah um can I ask about the the weekday shift so it's it's 15 hours do you intend to have somebody work 15 hour ships or no so that's where so the idea is that let's talk about our full-time staff gr $12,000 increase to my budget incorporates two full-time people 40 hours a week two more or the already two that you have two more two more thank you two more so that 120 but that that's not just for those full-time staff so you utilizing current dollars plus the 120 to incorporate two full-time staff that includes full benefits and then also help pay for our staff station during Duty Crew hours so for an example a Duty Crew person or excuse me a full-time person would work noon to 10: so they're 40 they're 10 hour four days four days a week so Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday is their uh week Saturday Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday and half of Thursday they would be off and then the next uh part of that segment for them when they come back after their 5 days off they would work Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday the 9 to 7 and then the me to 10 and then that will be supplemented by one firefighter um one paid on call firefighter working with a full-time firefighter so what it does is it does a couple things is we have challenges for station one as often as station one based on location they get in a truck they try to arrive to the scene 58% of our calls are in this area or you know service by station T so often they end up getting cancelled and don't have an opportunity to serve the customer if you will so we're going to be able to take those firefighters that have been trained get them on a truck that's here and then actually use their skills and continue to home their skills because they're here at Station 2 and responding on um no station Staffing um from 10: to 7:00 a.m. or from 700 p.m. to 9:00 a.m. um Monday through Friday um those are our lowest call percentages are at night our biggest call percentages for here is between 8:00 a.m. and 8:00 p.m. pretty much equitably across the board when you look at statistics or the data we've been able to take out Fridays currently um seem to be the busiest but then it almost levels out within a few calls across the the entire week so Staffing compensation comparison current model is $17 per hour again their pension is 3250 they're vested at 100% um at 20 years so they get 60 uh 60% vested at 10 years and 40% vested at 5 years and that's a lump sum payment the propose model is $30 per hour police and fire PA 3% per year service let's assume that their average uh wage is $10,000 for the year they would get if they go for 10 years um they'd be 50 excuse me 100% vested at 10 50% vested at 5 and then that's a lifetime monthly pension so using $10,000 as their high five if you will um they would end up with at 10 years of service that' be 30% 3 * 10 30% they have $3,000 divided out amongst that 10 or excuse me 12 months is2 and some of dollars a month if you will are these for the the full-time people you're looking at or for the this would be for both let's clarify uh shot $30 an hour is going to be full-time pay to start uh no different than $30 an hour for our part-time staff so everyone's going to be at that $30 an hour the police fire pair up pension is going to be the same regardless if you're full-time or part-time sure but aren't there additional benefits if you're a full-time and that that that 120,000 does include the $ 20,000 $20,400 in benefits we us to use like 27% on time of the hourly rate for benefits yeah I'm just using what I know is it's more like 34 but yep close enough sure I forgot we in government so yeah this just kind of gives you an idea the one thing that it does the benefit that's probably a huge benefit for the city is the liability of the relief association's pension fund in the past the city has had to kick in dollars to make them whole um if they made and this is if they made a bad pension decision for whatever got into something and let's say that it went down to zero the city would be on the hook for whatever it took for that payout for you know we'll use Jeff as as the example at 10 years of service working closer to 11 years of service um that 3250 * 11 the city would have to kick that in anything below I think it's 80% funded the city has to to make sure that it's it's properly funded in a commitment so that liability now goes away if you will um the revenue that again used to be that pass through is going to fund the uh pensions of all the firefighters um please and fire um there's actually a little bit of a discount to 1% when you compare it to what we were originally looking at we originally looking at coordinated coordinated is about was it 7.4 uh 7.5 yep 7.5% but then we have to kick in 4.7 for Social Security Medicare 6.2 6.2 so there's actually a little bit of a reduction when you kind of add all those things together in that capacity so all I used here was was our current salaries salary budget So currently we're budgeted for 305720 if you divide that out roughly by the by projected calls for the year that's $477 68 per call now granted this does not include our total budget of $960,000 that we have currently um but this is just Bas un salary the proposed budget salary dollars of $465,500 to 704 calls is $66.75 the call Cost went up but the one thing that I'm here to tell you is that the more calls that we continue to receive with a staff station and part-time and or full-time servicing it that cost per call ends up going down over time MH why the number of calls increase cuz it just will I mean as you're grow you're going to get more calls I think it would be clearer for for me anyway to follow for comparison is to use use the current number because your cost per call Goes Down Under the current model as well as the calls go up right so I think and I'm not saying that we shouldn't be looking at this I'm not saying that at all actually but my math it's it goes from 477 to 726 a call using the current number of calls cuz I think that the that's a math just yeah yeah you using the 553 or using the 640 the 640 yeah so 640 is reducted for this year right yeah and I'm just just to keep it level across the board it's it's easier for me to look at it yep what are you suggesting implementing this so ideally this is the part of the reason I bring it up is this is that I can't have the relief so the relief assciation excuse me has to dissolve M with that dissolve they need to go through many steps so I'm assuming it's probably about 6 months to for them to dissolve so roughly if we had them start to dissolve at some point granted the budget I understand is not obviously as normal is not ratified until that first roughly latest second council meeting in December but more than likely the first so in theory let's assume that we didn't have that move on anything they had to wait till January of next year after you guys approve the budget this number could be half of that CU my assumption is it's probably they wouldn't start that until July of next next year this is uh currently looking at having them start to dissolve in the next few months having everything wrapped up by the end of the year and then starting with a new budget at the beginning in January 1 2026 2025 but that's why I'm saying is that next year next year is coming out yeah so that's why I'm saying is that we could it could be cut in half if we till we waited till the absolute end I just can't give direction they're not going to want to dissolve the relief Association until we know that council's approved whatever means that forward so that's why I iess said it could be happiness at the end of the day yeah it cost the Fire Relief money to do it so they want to spend money and then the council goes actually know just kidding and then now we spent a bunch of money that they yeah that the city's not going to have to pitch back into them in order to resolve them in a year or two later if they want that's if that's what's proposed by the city council I've talked about this before the idea of the full-time fire fighter does it not work you had mentioned that you're getting sometimes you're getting seven eight nine firefighters on on a call and maybe you don't need that many MH why does it not work and you we you have to work this out with the guys obviously why does it not work all of a sudden say this month Peter John Harry and Tim are going to be on call and for you being on call you get $30 an hour instead of having full-time guys always there because to me if you have if you have full-time figh two guys in this building 24/7 almost 20 15 hours a day there's going to be a lot of this you're just saying where they spend their time they're still PA they're still on really on call I mean the benefit you're getting is you're on you you know you know you're on call this month or this week or whatever however you figure the schedule um so that particular individual knows when that phone rings I got to go yep and so that would be a standard Duty C model without a doubt without so you can transition to a standard Dy cure model um we had a discussion Kevin and I did with with Plan B if you will assuming Council says no to two full-time staff the response that we got back from uh firefighters is that they didn't want to go that route and that's because it was going to be far more shifts than what we currently propos in this model currently right now they are giving 20 hours a month at a minimum so that's 10 hours of calls a month 6 hours um of training a month and then roughly about four of Maintenance and or maybe public education so we tried to meet them at that 20 hours and nothing more than that when you think about 20 hours it doesn't seem like a lot but when you have I just use myself as my kid trying to get him to hockey and if they have two or three kids and they're going you know two parents and trying to go in 20 different directions it's a big strain on them so the predictability and know use two people right now that have decided to go on leave is because that inability to have that predictability to your point we can have that but we're trying to balance what they're doing today as that call volume continues increased with what I see roughly 640 to 704 we keep adding here participation and other things goes this way so the more we increase here they only have so many hours to give so that's where eventually the organization is going to shift with more full-time staff than part-time I believe this organization will always have will always VI a combination Department as long as I'm here meaning that we'll have a semblance of part-time or excuse me uh full-time staff along with part-time staff to help on the significant incidents where we need more than just two to four people so you proposed both options to the fire department and they preferred this one that is correct and hence the letters that you received in your packet um they were um it's difficult for all of them to speak so I had asked them to provide what their thoughts were based on what my proposal was and Kevin and I we sat down with them um I believe a majority of if not all are on board with this we have not heard anything specifically from anyone that is not um everyone had a good Viewpoint of kind of where they fell you know within that depending upon their lifestyle and what they were able to give above and beyond kind of where they're at the other thing that this does for us too is from a recruitment perspective this time right now um last year I think Kevin 14 15 people for our Physical Agility Test that we have this coming Thursday this year we're half of that of that seven that we get maybe we get one or two depending upon uh Physical Agility and medical and background checks so that number continues to grow when you look at full-time organizations full-time organizations are starting to eat their young so to speak you never saw full-time organizations rob Peter to pay Paul but right now full-time organizations and this is just the general interest in public safety is that a full-time organization will pay I don't know say5 or $10 more than another another one and they all gravitate towards this other one the other thing is full-time staff what they're starting to do is they're starting to do their ownmy very similar to what a payon call organization is doing is their own Academy the difference is full-time staff never used to have an academy there was always plenty full of people I was one of 6,000 people back in the day that applied for Minneapolis and there's lots of other people I can tell you that story probably right now St Paul is getting maybe no more than 200 to 250 people applying for that so what's happening is if the full-time staff full-time organizations start to recruit and retain at that street level now we're in competition with them uh for those same people on the part-time level so before we used to be that feeder to the full-time people where they could get jobs after they were trained now holistically it's impacted us regardless SP fulltime or parttime so the idea from this perspective or from me I think it's extremely important to promote from within for all the hard work and dedication that uh the firefighters have done if there's an interest within the organization that's where that group would come from yeah so then one one thing I've changed about this fulltime from what I've gain from the fire chief is that this is not a 24-hour shift type fulltime time this is you get to go home to your family at night you get to go home every day you don't sleep here so other fire departments will pay less hourly wage because they're paying people to sleep while they're here or be on call 24/7 if they do get to sleep um this department would only have a 10 hour shift so you'd actually be able to go home every night and that's advantageous for firefighters CU they get to then spend time with their families if they are full-time so yeah we're looking at either 2,912 hours versus a 280 hours 280 so firefighter even in this capacity um they can work 56 hours a week without engaging in overtime so we could have them work 56 hours if needed um but that's because that's way the statutes SC you're full and you think you're going to staff this for 60,000 a year that's not a lot of money it's not a ton of money but the reality is when as Zach said when you look at 2912 another 900 more hours we're paying the same amount of money um and that Capac it's comparable when you look at that from the biggest thing I think for people is you're going to get that 5 and a half day stint off you know um you know right now if you look at a 2912 firefighter they work 10 days a month but it really kind of depends on how that's broken up and they're gone for 24 hours a day and that doesn't mean that you get to sleep at the stage even know they have a bed and whatnot that doesn't necessarily mean that that's how that works out so this schedule not being ideal it's a second shift position for the most part noon to 10: but then on weekends you're still at home in the evenings and then again that off shift you have that 5 days off so we try to make it a little bit more MH um something they might be interested in so briefly to kind of keep us on track here firefighters request more compensation a better pension more predictability for firefighters equals a better work life balance quality life predictable level of service Vari to the community from 7:00 in the morning until 10: at night and then 9:00 to 7: on weekends faster response times better use of our salary dollars and a better distribution of call response between firefighters so again Station 2 and station one we do an all call both stations come out um unfortunately not just because of location um they're typically station ones unless it's in Oldtown or in that area they're not making it so they're not having that same opportunity to um utilize their skills utilize their skills in that capacity so this really is more informational as we move into um budget season but I just wanted to make everyone aware um and and take the opportunity during the work session to kind of give you a little bit of understanding kind of what's going on in the fire department any questions specific to the Staffing model again that's not something that's on the agenda tonight but it will be something in the budget Bud which is coming up in one meeting so I'd say I'm I'm definitely open to looking at a at another model um with this and this is a you know you sort of fed us with a fire hose this last week with information yes sorry sorry hence the 86 document um yeah the dissertation was a fun read if everybody got through it or not but it's great for a plane ride let me tell you yeah the point is that in the time I've been here you've never been fully staffed so the the recruitment piece is you know is an everlasting Gob stoer or it's things to do on your list it's and it doesn't sound like um volunteerism in general is improving it's for this kind of thing it's it's drifted down over time um so I'm certainly open to looking at another model um cost always comes into play but uh I think that it's it's worth worth taking a hard look at I think the daytime stuff is the big gap and it that hasn't changed um since I've lived here so I I think that's that's something that we we should try to figure out a better solution to I've never understood the on call model and you know my background is with the hospital if you were on call you were scheduled to be on call you got paid to be on call and you you came the you might call in a team but we never had okay 35 W bridge collapse that was an all call everybody come right y but um not very many many incidents like that people are scheduled to be on call you're on call this week whatever the schedule works out to be and I I think I don't know I just don't get the the concept of everybody comes or everybody who can comes and you don't know who's coming until they're there it's probably because of the I mean there are some C where literally only a handful show up you may have or less than yep yeah and and that's really what we're trying to overcome is we have large numbers of firefighters to assume and I'll give you an example from over the weekend so we had uh a person laye on Dayton Parkway the the call was laye on Dayton Parkway um off the freeway not exactly sure where it was and this is everyone was busy I'm the only one that responded that night and that can happen and actually Brian was there too thanks true I did do the report today so up two of us but at the end of the day that can happen so we're depending upon 24 firefighters and hoping that you know four to five or available depending upon what that call is and then you get into a structure fire then you look at 1710 1720 which fishing Associates to talk a little bit about tonight as my assumption is looking at those response times 90% of the time we need 15 people on the scene for a fire so I mean to your point David it's it's one of those things that we're having the masses and then you know can we look at strictly a D model yes we can however the feedback from the organization was I don't have that much time because I think it was going to Kevin it was going to double yeah it's going to go from average of about 20 20 hours per firefighter a month up to closer to 28 um you know and then with that you know you talk about that scheduling or that Duty Crew initial Duty Crew you know everybody who pay a call Works a full-time job right so when they look at schedules when they're working for a full-time job and that's their full-time career they understand doing that but when this is secondary to that be scheduled on a secondary basis consistently uh that's where it really drops off it's it's really hard to you're already working 40 hours a week at your current job then to push now going from 20 to $30 hour a week at a part-time job on top of family work life uh all that it really takes a toll on everybody mentally physically emotionally uh not to mention all the calls we go on uh you know we're not just firefighters I mean we go into mental health we go to sickness suicides um stabbings gunshots you name it you know there's a big toll on on our firefighters so you know implementing this process and bringing on the two firefighters is the best case to create that better work life balance for our staff that we have currently we discussed it you know we've had multiple discuss discussions of many firefighters in our office on what can we what can we do to fix it or what can we do to help you and this is what we can do to help you and I think real briefly to wrap this up so we can get moving but I think from a from a longevity perspective I think this will this model would be helpful for I'll say 5 to seven years know it really depends on call volume and continued recruitment um but I think the biggest thing that this helps with is attention and for firefighters if we lose a firefighter I'm 18 months just in training it's really more like 36 months where they're actually really have a good understanding of kind of how to do the job and not really have to be you know supervise over their shoulders if you so that's the problem where we get into all that training perspective it takes some time to get them trained all right terms of time appreciate your time thank you thank you