for I will call to order the May 28th regular meeting of the Dayton city council please stand for the pledge PL Ali to the flag of the United States of America to for it stands one nation God indivisible did you hear that it's never been that long good all all right I will need a motion second for the uh agenda a motion no second okay any discussion um just so people know I think if we start running late I'm going to request that we move uh looks like SN S&T can both be moved out but we'll see where we're at because we all know the long meetings make don't make good decisions so any other discussion all those in favor say hi all those opposed Say No Agenda carries 5 z um and we will do the swearing in J thanks mayor good evening members mayor and members of council tonight it's my honor to uh bring up uh two firefighters that have completed 36 60 hours of uh their training to become a firefighter uh one of them Mr robowski one of them we were fortunate enough to uh get from another organization uh firefighter tan um has I won't say an erroneous amount of experience but a fair amount of experience um between a few different departments so uh if uh Brad and Joe if you guys would come forward please age before Beauty right [Laughter] yeah all right gentlemen if you would uh raise your right hand or repeat after me please I I state your name do swly swear to do my duty As A Firefighter to my duty as for the city of Dayton the city to the best of my ability to the best of my ability to serve my commanding officers to ser and cicer with respect and dignity with respect and dignity to serve the citizens of the city of Dayton to serve the citizens of the city of Dayton with compassion with compassion courage courage Integrity integrity and to uphold the laws and to uphold the laws and Constitution and Constitution of the United States of America of the United States of America the state of Minnesota the state of Minnesota the city of Dayton the city of Dayton so help me God so help me go all right well congratulations if the significant others would like you have somebody so we're going to have the families come forth and uh do the honors of uh pinning them they probably wouldn't like me to do that so come on forward whoever is going to pin there you go while they're doing this um this again is a huge accomplishment regardless if you have experience or not because as we just discussed in our work session um there's a lot of time away from family friends on anniversaries Christmas Easter whatever um to the citizens a date and those that transends us through so significantly appreciate your guys' dedication to the organization how's it going you want me to help you there you go nice job guys thank you have a SE Travis Anderson if you come down please so this evening um I get the opportunity to um swear in Travis Henderson as Lieutenant for station one um Travis has been an integral member of this organization long before I came um but Travis has done a lot of work and put in a lot of effort um to help me and to help this organization continue to move forward as it should so tonight take the opportunity to swear in Travis Henderson so Travis yours is a little bit more lengthy than their so sorry I I Travis Anderson as a lieutenant for the Dayton Fire Department as a lieutenant for the dayon fire department do hereby declare do hereby declare that I will support the Constitution that I will support the Constitution of the United States of the United States the con constitution of the state of Minnesota constitution of the state of Minnesota and the City of Dayton the city of Dayton as an officer of the Dayton Fire Department as an officer of the D and fire department my duty is to serve the people my duty is to serve the people I Swear to protect I Swear to protect to safeguard and preserve life saf guard and preserve Life Health and property health and property against fire and other perils against fire and other apparels and to maintain a Proficiency in the fire service and to maintain a Proficiency in the fire service as an officer as an officer I will never allow my personal feelings I'll never allow my personal feelings nor danger to self nor danger to self Deeter Meer me yeah there you go from my responsibilities responsibilities uh As A Firefighter As A Firefighter I will lead my fire company I will my fire company to the best of my ability to the best of my ability with fairness and no Prejudice with fairness and no Prejudice I will at all times I will at all times respect the property and rights of all respect the property and rights of all accept the badge of my office I accept the badge in your office my office there you go as a symbol of public Faith as a symbol of public faith and trust and trust and I'll remain true to the ethics of the fire service I'll remain true to the ethics of the fire service I will constantly strive to achieve the objective I'll constantly strive to achieve the object objective ideals that the fire service and stills I deal that the fire service Stills as a member of the date and fire department as a member of the date and fire department I accept the self-imposed I accept a self-imposed and self enforced obligation self-imposed and self- enforced obligation as my responsibility as my responsibility and make these promises so so solemnly and make these promises so solemly freely freely and upon my honor and upon my honor congratulations Travis awesome [Applause] job so with supply chain issues and everything else we actually have new badges on order order for the Department uh because of the metal and it's not gold that we ordered but um it's delayed so we would normally have a badge for Travis um Travis received his red helmet uh this evening and the department has moved to new helmets as well just because of age this is the new style and it is missing the front badge indicating uh that Lieutenant number so those are coming so we're a little bit challenged in this respect but congratulations J been that all right ah okay that gets us to the consent agenda the room settle down it'll clear out now J thank you that was a lot yeah thank you Tony I got complaints no I'm just kidding congratulations buddy thank you [Laughter] CH okay we are on to consent I need a motion in a second I'll make the motion second Scott Travis okay any uh discussion on consent I have a couple go ahead questions um Gary I think maybe you answered this during the work session inadvertently but the we had a cost of $5,500 in the fire department for Echo data analytics yes ccan that is our new um data um mining service so to speak it takes our current records management system and extracts all that data so it's real time for us so I can go in and look at number of calls per day of week hour it there's lots of different things that I can do with that particular piece of uh software if you will you will see that in uh fit's presentation this evening as well they talk about data being the driver of lots of things that us and many other organizations we're looking at so that is um an annual subscription in that capacity okay thank you um I had a question on item C also and that is the resolution on the hen County Fire Chiefs Association I'm just I'm not questioning whether or not you should be part of it I'm just wondering why we need a resolution to authorize this so this was on recommendation so I am uh on the board for the henan County Fire Chiefs been been so for the last 5 years I believe um the Henman County Fire Chiefs Association has existed since 1962 I believe it states um but there's been no formal um adoption because what we're we're moving towards is a 501c3 as well and so there's many steps our attorney for the association has recommended that each um agency that is a part of it had the resolution adopted from the city council recognizing that um the organization is a part of that organization if that makes sense because of your board position no it has nothing to do specific to the board position just as a clarification for the membership of the association as a whole um of that because it's never been formally adopted in the past it's never been formally tied to the city no it has not correct so obviously decisions that we make at chief at that uh meeting um can obviously impact each organization holistically or individually in that uh on on that note so we want the council to recognize that we are part of it um and that was a recommendation from the attorney that we've contracted with okay thank you any else um item e the uh resolution um approving Three Rivers purchase Three Rivers Park District purchase um I am wondering uh this one makes sense some sense to me but I'm wondering if we can't get them in here to really talk about that West River Road uh Trail because what they're what they're doing is doesn't seem to be what the plan says they were going to do sure yeah C we will most certainly request that I do have a meeting with um th Park District this Friday and I will request that they come to the either next meeting or a future meeting here in order to explain what their you know what their updated uh situation is what their plans are if they have any um I know that you had mentioned in the past just personal conversations that they had changed their plans a couple times already in the past of what they wanted to do whether one side of the road the other side of the road where they want the West Mississippi Regional Trail to connect to how far off the road so on and so forth so um I will most certainly request that when I meet with them this Friday thank you what were you thinking was out of line or well consistent they seem to be buying just random whole properties along the whole stretch of road along y along the river right and so you know that was never presented in anything that I saw including the task force that they put together or we put together I guess uh before my time on the council to talk about planning this Trail it was going to be it landed on the Riverside of the of the road which makes sense um but I don't I can't follow their plan now or they're or they're buying up um perfectly good houses I would say I mean I know they're willing sellers um but is the goal really to to own that whole stretch of river and if if it is then they need to tell us that it is amazing how quickly they can come up with the money too when something goes on the market it can pop up 600 can or whatever it is y I will most certainly request a future meeting yeah and just has a point related to that on their on their website in the in the plan for that trail they have allocated um had allocated $174,000 for Capital Acquisitions for that whole stretch of Trail they didn't buy any of those properties for that money so yeah so something is not clicking for me and I'd like to get that clear guessing it's a different fund along that that item e can we also we know there's a roundabout going in there at some point yes that east side is ours that Road's going to be ours I can see someone saying well since that's your street this roundabout you get to eat 20% of it or whatever that property we would need and getting property from the parks once they once they've allocated it is not pretty yeah we'll work with them when I talk with them on Friday it's part of our discussion on Friday with I just think that that little figure out how we can get the easement on that one side yeah and we don't mind if they use it if they need it for their Trail but I think the problem is it's under the state statute Parks thing they they can't just so they can allocate out specific portions based on their allocations of money and they can utilize different pieces of money yeah um in their funds to do it and they have requested and done that on another piece of parcel that said if you want a piece let us know when we can write that into the deed for the property I mean this property is problematic anyways right there's I doubt they can get out where's Jason that tab where where it connects the um 40 seconds 40 seconds yeah mhm I can't imagine putting a driveway there it's right on the intersection no yeah it's way too close so so this whole property is kind of almost landlocked to some extent right they'd have to be given access to River Road which would not be preferred right so I this is one property where I I wouldn't necessarily squabble with them getting it I I do have a concern though as they buy up on the River properties we lose that Revenue too so question for you Mr Mayor is there something you would change in the verbiage then as far as this resolution so that they can identify that kind of well that's what so work with them talk to just to see what we can do there so they normally just work it out through U an agreement with us yeah and they'll have us if it's something of significant value it'll come back to the council to let you guys know what's happening but um they'll they'll just write it in the in the deed essentially they'll deed it over to us quick claim be it and then say it's ours and then they'll just ask for an easement over it if they want to use it for a trail yeah just thinking like in this letter of our letter of um support like there's nothing worded in there as that so I can add a whereas if you'd like me to kind of covers in there kind of covers us a little bit I guess as a policy standpoint if it makes sense makes sense to me yeah yeah that would be good to get that in there you want to then pull that item and then follow it up directly after this with adjustment to the whereas or are they in a hurry for this like yeah oh they are we were supposed to get it at the last meeting and I didn't um there's nothing wrong with you approving it with that with the direction to make that Amendment so I think you could go forward with it rather than bull it I think yeah okay I will add that Amendment and then so before you know what the amendment is other than the fact that we want we just want the little are you going to just wait and do that when you meet with them to see what they want to do or correct yeah I will send them some draft language and say does this work and if it doesn't Mr Mayor if I could um it might be good to pull it off of consent and approve it separately um just to make it clear that it's that that amendment is going to be part of your approval okay can make it a so we'll pull it up uh okay1 what do you want uh um you can just make it E and we can just approve right the consent agenda that'll be fine just keep it as item me oh I see okay so there was a motion and a second yep minus item e um we have to amend the motion yeah so we'll amend the motion to include some sort of language for easement on that property isn't it P consent I will entertain a motion to pull it from consent I'll make a motion to pull from consent I'll second thought we already got there um okay any discussion on that all those in favor say I I all those opposed say no okay that motion to pull e is passes 5 Z so now we can continue with the rest of the motion the rest of the consent well the rest of the consent agenda so corre did you have anyone I'm done Matt do you have any yeah I just had a quick question so Chief I know I emailed you earlier on this but just to get clarity the liquor license that were're approving I know some of them had failed last time we did a check but I read your response just start I'm reading it properly they're now passed after we did the followup after the failure is that correct correct so all of these have now officially passed uh correct thank you very much for that CL that's all that um Travis you have anything I do know Scott no all right so so uh we have a motion a second uh all those in favor of passing consent with the amendment to P item e say hi hi all those opposed say no motion carries 5 item e and now we'll make the motion to add language in there to uh include easement property future easement I'll second any discussion on that all those in favor say I I all those opposed say no motion carries 5 Z all right we are on to open Forum open Forum limited to 3 minutes or non-agenda items state your name and address no console action will be taken and items will be referred back to staff good evening mayor and city council my name is Julie T and I'm going to spell that for your meeting notes it's t like and Tom H like an Harry i e like an Edward S like an Sam I am up here um regarding my May 14th um comments that were incorrectly noted in the meeting notes and so my last name is t h i s my husband's last name is Petty court and that is p as in Peter e d like in David d y c o a r t and there was reference in our um message that um that there were eight potential buyers that were coming to look at our property um no I guess did I say my address I'm sorry 16220 Territorial Road okay so um there were eight potential ERS um that came to the city to speak with Tina and other staff after Tina had left her position um regarding our property and the meeting notes indicated that they came to the council which they did not they came to the city and um so I just wanted that to be corrected in the meeting notes and that's all that I have for this evening okay thank you so very much anybody else here for open forum anybody online if anyone is here for open Forum to speak on an item that's not on the agenda please use the raise your hand function not see all right so we will move on to staff consultant Council updates s mayor members of council we've been busy and all of my items are on the agenda tonight so I'm going to pass thank you very much Amy um just that we have open filing until next Tuesday Morning uh mayor and Council a couple of things uh we uh hired the third seasonal so we've got uh the three that we were looking for um I will be putting a uh sta report together for the next meeting um the other thing is uh regarding the park improvements project uh being delayed I sent you guys an email today it's unfortunate that we're in this position um but Paul has uh been unable to meet the deadline for the projects um we are looking to see what projects we can possibly complete this year I'm pushing to get at least the bridge at LC Stevens park down U some irrigation projects may be possible and maybe uh some structures um but we need to work our way through that um and see where we come out on the other end of this and go ahead um and so I know I had emailed you but you will reach out to the Parks Commission to and send them the same so they can read his response and then I know they had moved the meeting to try to commodate I think that was I think I remember correctly cuz I watched the mean a while that was the only agenda item so they may want to cancel but I'm not sure I'll let you take care of that but just please make sure that they're aware as well yeah and I will post something on the website as well so uh PE residents are aware of it as well but there are some other uh things on the agenda for the next par commission meeting perfect thank you um it's not your turn yet background music there Paul Paul's got an interpretive dance for us tonight we're going to get into something really subtle here so um is this a um how do I word this was the schedule that we gave that that was who said where's the problem um is that pretty safe uh I don't understand why we're in this position we've used the same U uh program over the last few projects um it's difficult to say where we are at this time um we should have been ahead of this a little bit but um I think going forward we' have to um I've developed a a a timeline for when we should have things hit and it just needs to Chase and I don't know if Paul's got more busy um that's really I want Paul said this schedule we tried to push it to make sure it was Tighter and he said that's not possible so we said okay we'll go with your schedule which is the closest we could get but I believe he's the one that set the schedule not us but is is the schedule he's setting got some other um restrictions based on I don't know State statutes or or water blah blah blah no no as far as I'm aware it's just his capacity yeah I think it's just his capacity and relying on contractors for other parts of his job as well some the civil engineering goes outside so I'm sure all those things contribute but it's not anything the weird sta control okay is this size project too big for him to handle um I did ask that question a little bit if he had plans to expand his business um and he didn't say that that's what he wanted to do but I feel it might be I mean the other projects that we've done are equally as big last year's project we probably l Hills Andie Stevens and Don Don was a small thing but I would imagine it's you know a similar size project to this year do we ever a sorry I just saw this do we have a contract with him no we do not okay thank you good evening mayor members of council uh Thursday May 30th we have seven indiv uals moving through the Physical Agility hopefully we can get a fair amount of those as new firefighters um and then on Saturday uh June 1st this Saturday um at 14431 lale Lane um we will be burning that structure down so laale Lane will be closed roughly probably around 5:30 in the morning till approximately noon on that Saturday so we can burn that structure um we do have this assistance of our CSO to help direct traffic for Daytona all the residents in that area have been contacted um assistant chief as did some door knocking so they're aware and we also reached out and made contact with the Daytona Golf Club to make sure that they're aware as well so um that will be happening again on this Saturday roughly from about 8 until noon what was the address it's 14431 laale Lane oh okay evening mayor members of the city council um we're in the process of changing out the state seal on our badges from the old one to new one so we'll be seeing new seals on our all our officers badges um quite the process so we'll see how it goes um Thursday we have the school picnic so we'll have officers there for that um and then couple weeks ago or last week we had a rash of um car problem ERS in the neighborhoods um so make sure you're taking all your valuables out vehicles and lacking them John June's going to be a busy month not that may is not but we I think we'll have about 10 projects for the second meeting in June no updates here mayor members of the council I was just um going to point out the the memo that I delivered to all of you regarding the Ed da um and some action that the council would need to take to kind of correct the the paperwork Trail um but if you have questions about that you know I'm happy to take them after the meeting or at another time that's convenient for for you to give me a call so I just point that out thank you Scott Nelson Travis um I've addressed the the act the meeting items from last meeting that were about the part-time employee in a memo that I had put on consent so um if anybody has any questions feel free to ask me about that memo as well so but other than that I don't really have anything so um I don't have anything nothing new for me yeah I've got a quick thing for Marty uh Marty did we take over the trails through Riverwalk um not currently no we we haven't taken them over the payones okay you should take a look at them there's plants growing the middle of some of those brand new trails so you might want to have them address that before we take orang movement so we're not stuck dealing with it afterwards yeah we would definitely do a walk through before we do accept them a little thin on the pavement ORS it doesn't look like it's I mean it's just so we got some strong plants over there I don't know but there's a couple spots where rollerblader going down the hill hits those and they're going to be face planting so it's a I wanted I want to make sure we didn't own those cuz we they need to be they should be fixed either way you might want to reach out to them but um cuz they're on a hill so that could be concerning for someone going down thank you okay move on to council business we have a public hearing on item L um and just to remind everybody with the public hearing we will hear from staff we will have questions for staff we may have questions for some of the players in in the um in the ordinance and uh then we will open up the public hearing so thank you Mr Mayor um so all and know the council's familiar with this I'll trably be brief in the presentation so this is a public hearing for a uh a number of items related to Quick Trip so we have a in rezoning or M zoning map Amendment uh from BP business part to B3 General business uh there's a resolution for approval of the prelimary plant final plant the conditional use permit for motor fuel station as well as a site plan review which kind of covers the the appearance of the project let's see okay location wise so generally speaking this is yeah I'm going to call this as the uh it's hard to call it the southeast quadrant but I'm going to do it anyway anyways for uh Maple Grove Parkway and Holly Lane so we have Maple Grove Parkway which is the main Corridor and then Holly Lane that's that's through here let's collect that Dayton Parkway Dayton let try Dayton Parkway not mapap Gro yeah really where am I a great location okay um the main access point into the property will be off of maple Port so that's probably where I went kind of fill off the rails here uh critical issues related to the project uh number one is signage and I'll go through that in a little bit more detail and then uh costs associated with the traffic signal um both of these have relatively been resolved uh related to signage uh the proposed signage that was submitted as part of the the site plan exceeded what's Allowed by the city code um the plan commission's recommendation was for approval minus signage the signage is going to be handled totally separately um not related to the tonight or this approval process uh specific to the traffic signal uh staff is identifi the need for traffic signal off of Dayton Parkway and Holly Lane um quick trip is uh willing to provide funds towards an escrow towards that intersection so just to summarize it uh the plan is they're going to we're going to do some traffic numbers to figure out what is the the amount of traffic that we can expect into that project and they would pay their portion um of that cost towards the traffic signal um the exact dollar amounts we still have to figure it out so that'll be at a later date this is the appearance of a quick trip so it it's fairly similar to to other quick trips U one notice difference with this project is that it does include the truck State and call it a a truck stop um there is I believe it's 36 stalls for semi- parking that's here um there is the building is larger than the typical quick trip that would include um showers and other related items that you would have need for truck stop that you would not necessarily have for a normal Quick Trip Station um the council when this went through concept plan review uh the council did request that uh kind of a 3D rendering of what the station would look like from the road so this is the intersection of the offramp from 94 and datton Parkway and this is what it looks like in real life so currently so it's it's uh this is a panoramic view so this the view is a little skewed but this is the off ram from 94 and then uh Dayton Parkway there a sstone and then Rio in the center um we do have the applicant here to answer questions and just to be specific this is a public hearing so uh notice was provided in the press as well as mailed to Property Owners within 500 ft of the project anybody have questions for staff um okay anybody anything any questions for the applicant the applicant the applicant is uh Dean George I might we still talk to him after the open for if we want we we can okay we can shift it around okay you want to do that then okay I will open up the public hearing for ADL if anybody wants to come up and speak to this come on up come on up hi I've never done this before it's okay just over here give us your name and and uh you can sit on there yep give us your name and uh address and you get yep you get three minutes go ahead hi thank you uh my name is my name is Teresa gaffer my address is 11581 Shady View Lane Maple Grove Minnesota on Wednesday May 15th I sent an email to all five city council members and explain the reasons why I believe the Quick Trip truck stop proposal should not be passed later that evening I received a email reply from council member Travis Henderson hello sir hello his exact words to me were if you have proof of your claims please provide the resources I've done extensive research on the matter and don't agree with the majority of your email I plan on approving The Proposal I'm sure sir to much to your surprise the very next day I sent an email back to you doing exactly what you requested I provided proof of my claims with screenshots from sever different articles and reports off the internet that supported my concerns I also provided my sources by including the website addresses in my email to you I requested that you do likewise and provide me with some of your extensive research as to why you plan on proving uh approving this proposal you did not Mr Henderson I don't know your motivations behind your email to me and I want but I want you to know that I received your email very negatively it didn't come across as a genuine inquiry for information but instead it seemed it to have the go that its goal was to silence me and shut down any discussion if that wasn't your intent I apologize and I and I I think it's good then that I'm making you aware of my negative reaction so that you can get an idea how your communication is received by others and perhaps you can be more mindful of your style in the future however if it was your intention to dismiss me and my concerns about the truck St ma'am can we this sounds like it might be a a thing between you and a council member do you can you kind of leave your comments up to the today item I'm yeah I I guess and I I I I thank you for your point sir and I guess my point was when a concerned citizen sure expresses concerns the response from a public servant should be that of civil and and it's it it it appeared that his um he his concern was to not have any discussion at all to bully me into silence sure okay um regarding my concerns I am going to have that discussion uh one of my big concerns I think most people would agree is uh concerns about crime at truck stops prostitution human trafficking robberies other illegal activities can often occur at a such a highly transient Transit and Anonymous clientel at a location with fast and multiple Escape Routes I'm sure you gentlemen have never been into a ladies room at a quick trip but everyone across the United across Minnesota I've been into has big signs in the women's room do you feel safe are you being coerced human trafficking call this number it's prevalent it it's out there I I to believe that there will be no increase in there will be no crime or an increase in crime in the area would be an iive secondly I don't believe it's it's really needed it doesn't benefit the average citizen of the community as we have other nearby options to the benefit to the truck drivers is also questionable since they have two other options very nearby it's easy to see how the truck stop proposal profits the Quick Trip Corporation but how does it profit the citizens of Dayton and I would believe its value to the community is questionable so and the the emails I received you the city of dayt had underneath these signatures a little model which I really liked it says we play outside We've Got Roots we're right here the the truck stop customers by their very nature have no root to the community the truck drivers are right here for the briefest amount of time and then they're gone again without any concern or connection to the neighborhood or the community a truck stop doesn't doesn't seem to me to match the values that are being put forth on on that letterhead and I I hope that this is not the type of business or a a proposal that you approve thank you sir I appreciate your time thank you for coming up is there anybody else here for for a public hearing I do have someone online someone online okay I'll take just your name address yeah yep thank you thank you hi my name is Abby Y and I live at 19272 meow View Lane um I live in Laurel Creek development which will be on the same road as the exit for Dayton Parkway and I just want to say that everything that this lovely lady said who I've never met was exactly what I was going to say she said it 100% I think I just would like you guys to think about what this especially the transient part of that and I have also as a woman been in restrooms like that where it's very scary and so I just wanted to I wasn't planning to talk today but when she said that I was like 100% what she said was correct so I would just love for you guys to think about that thank you so much okay thank you is there anybody else okay we can go online right so Beth online we're GNA allow you to talk all right go ahead and give you your name and address yep yep if you can state your name and address yep Beth birfields 11444 Creekside Court Rogers I also from Laurel Creek nice to see you Abby um I agree with what both women said I know that that's not going to sway a couple of the council members um because it didn't sway them in 20121 when we had to fight to not get this tra the truck stop in this spot um we've since grown like triple the number of residents in our neighborhood many of whom are very concerned um and if you know the safety issue the transing issue if those aren't going to sway you um I'd like to bring up the point of what Dayton's or the Dayton Vision was for this spot they've talked about it in the past it came up in 2021 when this was trying to go through that this is meant to be the entrance to Dayton this is the only entrance off of 94 into Dayton and think of all the millions of dollars you've put into the inter in interchange um that the county has the state has all this money and you want to put a big truck stop sitting in that corner so that's the only thing people are going to see when they see welcome to datton sign they're going to see a big huge truck stop and they're going to say I will keep going and I will take another exit to go to restaurant or go get gas or whatever um as the first woman said and I agree with her fully as residents we have plenty of places we can go get gas all of that the truck stop is going to be catering to Highway drivers and the Planning Commission noted that they passed this unanimously which does not surprise me um because of what their thought process was but they said this is going to appeal to people who are driving the highway have animal trailers semi- trucks whatever they're not people invested in our community so when crime happens it's going to be happening to us we live nearby there's other big neighborhoods that are on Long territorial along 81 you know there is manufacturing industrial all that but there's employees there too so if there's a rash of car break-ins well yeah it might be at RDL it might be at chemstone it might be in our neighborhood so our concerns are not only you know the safety aspect just the generic a truck Stop's not a good idea please think about what the city of Dayton planned for decades about what they want to do here this is meant to be the opening to your city this is what you want people to see and if you want to be a city where families want to live and people want to work a truck Stop's not going to do that it's a business park zone right now it should stay a business park zone that should be some sort of business can put in their headquarters or you know medical office facility like they've got up on M Parkway that they've already outstretched something like that everything south of 94 to Brockton that's going to be residential and Commercial we all know that and I'd be happy to see coffee shops and apartments and whatever is going to be there but all those people are also going to look at a truck stop on the other side of the interstate and do they want to be in that vicinity because there aren't going to be as many people driving around here as we would then go into Rogers go into Maple Grove go down to pretty much anywhere cork anywhere if we're afraid of this area by the truck stop there's just not going to be the kind of traffic that Dayton wants to get in any of that area you're going to get Dayton Rogers Maple grow Champlain corkran Handover all these residents are in this where where all these cities meet up right here uh for the most part and if you don't have something that we want to be going to and that we feel safe and that we think is adding to the community then what's the point of it and I'd also like to bring up the point that it's pretty clear that the broker that is dealing with selling this land um is not making an effort to find other buyers this came up in 2021 and he said oh I couldn't really find much and I'm this is this is the best we can get and at the time the council decided 3 to two I believe against resoning which then that just threw out the whole truck stop plan because they wanted to wait waited out that the inter The Interchange just got completed looking for you know buyers whatever the broker's not trying to find anybody else they can sit on this land Quick Trip can just sit there and wait wait out till they get a council that they're going to get a 4 to one or a 5 to zero to get in their stupid truck stop and then we're all going to be stuck with it they don't care they have money they aren't going to be impacted okay they're going to get the check and that's it all right thank you um okay is there anybody else there is one more so Deb will allow you to talk and if you could state your name and address hi my name is Debbie and my ADD address is 11584 Shady View Lane and Rogers um I also agree with the three women that have spoken we're all in worldl Creek in addition to the issues that they've brought up again I also have the concerns about safety and crime I'm wondering does Dayton Police Force have enough officers to cover the additional calls that they'll be getting from the truck stop my concern is also the traffic on the highway right now when I leave my home and get on uh heading uh on to 94 heading east I bet I I go out like 93010 in the morning I'm always following FedEx trucks there's at least two in front of me now when I'm getting on the highway I don't want to get get off on 610 and either do those FedEx trucks so there's at least a few of us trying to merge over two at least two to three lanes trucks that have been kinded on 94 that have been coming from the West also don't want to get off on 610 so they're merging I can't even tell you how many near Miss accidents I've seen with truckers every time trying to merge over you have a half of a mile to get down that ramp before you have to move over that's getting onto the highway what's going to happen when those two huge Warehouse buildings are full with truckers trying to get over the bridge onto the highway in addition to the truck stop traffic right now you can't fit three trucks over that bridge and the way the lights are timed you can't get if I'm behind two trucks coming off the highway I can't go straight because trucks are going onto the highway going east it gets too congested in that area so besides the track traffic issues and all the other issues as far as safety and that type of thing have you look at the number of trucks that will be getting onto the highway and the speed that they're getting onto the highway they are not going 70 when they're at the bottom of that ramp and trying to get over three lanes of traffic already 70 or 75 miles an hour have you looked and considered that traffic issue besides the safety concerns um and the the other issues of having the trucks stop there thank you very much for considering I know I've written to a few of you also and I believe one of you indicated that it's it's good money for the city well think about that you know there's always going to be money from somebody yes it helps your tax base but is that really the tax base you want it coming from okay thank you thank you anybody else any me nope um can we so Paul did you want to chime in here just to kind of give us an idea of what your concerns are uh Mr Mayor members of the council uh we all have the same concerns as the residents do um truck stops do tend to bring in a little more transient um people um but they provided the crime stats from numerous other truck stops that um they own um so which you've all seen um in the past um it depending on the location and the cities that they're in some are higher some somewhere lower um you're always going to have that concern when you have a convenience store um with traffic and criminal activity um with the quick trip that we currently have um we've had n 79 calls since it's opened um for service which is in my mind low um I look at date and gas stop we've had 42 calls in the same time period but they're not open 24 hours um a lot of self-generated calls um when our officers are taking breaks there they'll come out notice a slumper or somebody will come into the store and say hey somebody's having a mental breakdown um but a lot of it some of it probably 30 30 out of the 79 have been self-generated calls um for service um we've had two thefts there since they've opened up for calls um one assault that was uh Gone on arrival um otherwise it's been a lot of lockouts um minor calls for service a lot of accidents in that corner um just because of the location with 81 and the exit there and you had some calls recently about semis being parked there overnight correct correct they're uh parking on that Frontage Road currently um and then the cut through traffic oh cut through than that that road behind them is is R is correct correct yeah um okay and we I assume we posted it and they get do they get tagged if you see them or I don't think they posted at no parking oh wasn't it no no that was that was a bad idea to begin with but I mean it happen the road yeah but okay uh can we have the applicant come up Mr Mayor did you want to close the public hearing or did you want to keep it open uh you know we can close it right now right we didn't have any so close the public hearing um does anybody have any questions for the applicant I don't really have any questions I got a big comment though to kind of address some of that um here's my view on this deal um I believe I mean there's been a lot of uh resident response over this thing in emails to the council at least I've gotten them I mean two doz or so yeah um I think out of all the the emails or or uh correspondents that I've gotten one one resident from Dayton has responded I've talked to a few but 95% of them are out of this Laurel Creek neighborhood and that neighborhood is at least a mile from where this truck shop is going to be half of the whole idea that trucks are going to be uh driving through their neighborhood or it's it's crazy semis are going to get off and get back on they're not going to be driving around the neighborhood uh I don't believe it's going to add well I guess I can't word it that way because no matter what you put out here anything but a corn field is going to bring more activity correct and we're all kidding ourselves if if progress so-called progress is not going to change what's what's there um 10 years from now you're going to have possibly a 300 unit apartment building and who knows what else is going to be there it's going to be drastically different than it is today um as far as um as far as to to me the truck stop services are Industrial Area more than anything and that's that's the purpose that I see it being there for um and it will also help reduce resident the city of Dayton residents tax Bas um I don't see any reason other than my my only concern is as I said The more you have the more issues you have if we put if there was enough ground to have 50 stalls there you're going to have more issues than if there was 10 so that is my only caveat to this whole deal is I would reduce the amount of trucks semi-trailer stalls and that would maybe help reduce some of the incident that's my only deal Mr Mayor members of the city council that if I understand the fact that the reduction of the um semi stalls but if you take the semi stalls out they will park on the side streets rather than in the facility so stalls are kind of the expected traffic not the other way around correct where the Stalls so that so indirectly you're meaning 36 trucks there probably will be 45 correct or they'll do like they do when you go across Nebraska they just park on the offramp cuz there's no place to park they just block that up which they currently do which they currently do yeah we'd rather have them contained yeah yeah right so uh the the the truck stop that you have over in Ado yes they have no that to my knowledge there's no issues there and there's not 10 or 15 semis that are parking there overnight well to my understanding that's like the truck stuff there's like no wash facilities there's none of that stuff there and they have actually quite the big fence that separates them in the neighborhood behind them there's a big white fence that that butts up against the property lines and then I don't think we have a truck a Travel Center building there that's a generic J 2 77,000 ft building there so they they you know the residents do complain about idling trucks but I mean the there's residents right behind the the parking right so that's yeah so I had a couple thoughts I think the the safety thing shouldn't go untouched about I received a good two dozen emails get all the ones I could find that would share their address with me all lived in Laurel Creek um there was one that we got who asked not to be identified by name but did that live in the neighborhood that was for the truck stop um but as far as the safety piece so I have a uh unique experience in that my sister-in-law happens to be an expert in this field she's a professor and teacher at the University of Colorado she works with the National Institute of Justice the sheriff's office in Oregon the Great Plains tribe and law enforcement in 12 different state so I had a three-hour conversation with her around prostitution and human trafficking and learned more and scared me more to death on some of this stuff than I I really wanted to be um but um when when we look at this and I explain the current Quick Trip location versus the truck stop she actually said the current Tri Quick Trip location is at a higher risk of human trafficking um or prostitution given its location to the residence Mobile Home Park which is why I actually have a lot of concern about the the parking of semis there and I think we should probably get on that um so the biggest dangers to watch out for and the biggest at risk groups are teenagers hanging out so the questions I have for you are um do you guys have no loitering allowed signs and do you enforce it as in call I don't know about the signs but we can enforce it certainly okay so I think that'd be good um cameras are a big thing she said having more cameras than normally required might be a helpful piece 24-hour staff which it sounds like what I've read it's going to be there more police activity and we are already doing this the current location cuz I know our officers will go there to eat cuz we don't have a lot of late night food options and so that's helpful for them um areas for intervention so I didn't know this about the women's stalls been the women's stalls I've only been in the men's stalls but having the signs up um around that I know I've been traveling a lot recently for work in airports every airport I've been to now even the men's room has those through the blue campaign I do think we have them in the men's room okay if you go into a you know a stall to go to the bathroom I think close the door y perfect um so I think as that that being is important so I my question is do you guys actively participate in the blue campaign or or there's another organization that she had talked about with me which is truckers against trafficking I don't know this is the first I've heard of that but I can find out absolutely yeah so I think I've been looking at these I think it's good to get involved in them the truckers against trafficking they work they train law enforcement so if we feel our law enforcement needs extra help they help with that they also do training for truck stop employees to help recognize situations that would be good for that as well um and they have sponsors so some of your largest competitors are are monetary sponsors of theirs um I've talked with my wife and we've decided that if Qui Quick Trip were decided to be a gold sponsor or higher we would personally donate $500 um as well so let us know if that's something you want to move forward with but I think from a a safety piece as I've looked through this if you're willing to take those steps then I I think we're doing everything we possibly can um truck drivers are needed to get things to places the high percentage of the goods we buy come via semi having work for General Mills and just helped with Logistics are getting food to places our food most almost all of it comes and gets to your store via semi- um there are semiu locations in Rogers and Maple Grove um both of which the citizens that emailed us about live in Rogers or Maple Grove and yet they chose to live there despite their being a truck stop in that that city um this I think this makes sense given the industrial nature of the buildings around this area uh I think it feeds that directly the other question I had asked you last time you were here is about having electric vehicle charging seen as we have a electric semi dealership like right across the road from this do you have any update on that we have called out parking stalls for potential future EV charging area Okay is kind of what we not noted on the Seline to come at a future date okay perfect I think that's everything I had to share and we talk about let's go next I'll go I mean my my objection is is more fundamental than this it's not about quick trip it's not even about about the need I I drive it's an eight Lane freeway right there's plenty of traffic there we put a lot of trucks on the road from some of the things we've built in the vicinity of this but the original vision for this interchange was to be the gateway to Dayton and we invested significant money into upgrading the plantings the the appearance of the whole thing as being a you know Welcome to our city and here's how cool we are and and I think that um you know that was the vision that's what it was Zed for and so I'm I'm just stuck there I know it's been two years and it and another buyer hasn't come forward I question the level of marketing that's happened but regardless uh if this if our goal is is to you know look at this area and say what do we want it to be when when it grows up um this is not the right answer if it's to serve the current need which is trucks coming and going and um from the cities then you know then I I think um quick trip is probably a good partner in that in that regard um you know I I just don't think it's the right location there's certainly a need for it um you know I drive I drive that road pretty regularly and the and the the entrance and the exit to that um to that rest stop in Maple Grove are always full of trucks the uh TA Travel Center in U in Rogers is always full of trucks and especially this time of night people got to get off the road or they're out of their time and they they're have to make their mandatory stops I get all that I'm sure that this location will be very successful for that I just don't want it here and it's it's just that simple for me it was owned for something else and I don't think we should change it I think we should wait for the right use so a couple of the uh neighboring community I I had heard from some of our councils regretting truck stops in their area um I think the one caveat so they very clearly said we should reconsider this but there was a caveat there and that um quick trip is looked at as kind of a high I don't know I you call it high class truck stop premium premium I don't know but I can tell you there was a lot of lot of um common in my way saying careful what you're asking for here I do have some of the same concerns Dave talked about we did put a boatload of money into that um to make it you know look like a a Gateway so to speak and it is I don't like the use either um I don't know but there's the same you know the same issues for it we did put a lot of warehouses in the area uh so I don't know you guys have any comments yeah I just I think before when we talk about the Gateway on that matter probably before my time you know before then there wasn't the cubes there wasn't the date 94 building there wasn't that you know 3 million square ft of warehouse space that was there so it was a little bit better to Envision what the Gateway datting might look like but since then we've added all these different users in there and I think it kind of changed the the shape shape of what I expect this area to look like I drove back there today uh on my way home and I was just you know looking at the area and I'm like you're going to have to drive through Industrial in order to for me to see a Gateway and I'd hate to see this parcel sit here for 20 more years and not be used in the hopes that it might be something that it might never be um but there again you know council's from now could change all that direction but I'm I I align with Scott on you know what does the industry that dayt and has along the 81 Parkway 81 and Parkway and how do we best service that especially if we're going to be putting all the storage and semi use there I'd rather have those individuals have a spot to go to versus their neighbor your our neighboring neighborhoods and things of that nature um I'd rather the crime if it's going to happen stay at that one spot rather than spread all over um as as trucks sit on roads and off ramps and things of that nature like I get with growth comes all those other aspects um but I think just as a service indust as a service to the industry in our Industrial Area I think this makes good sense now are we making the right decision only time will tell but I don't see this as being one of those um uses that is necessarily a bad one in the long run either um to the point that they make on the inter or on the par truck stop on 94 that's that's eastbound only um so I mean between Minneapolis and and Clear Water you don't have a spot if you're heading westbound correct I mean other than Rogers trucks out there sure but I just looked at like you know like what the you know I state or whatever the trucker you know the trucker Mavs like they they they rate these truck stops I mean Rogers is getting a nine out of a 10 uh the Clear Water one is a 10 out of 10 don't you guys have the Clear Water one we have clear water 10 out of 10 um I will say that so it's our goal to put up the best retail establishment that we can whether it's a normal C store or a truck stop our truck found dport was ranked by the people who use it top truck stop in the country by people who travel I80 or any other interstate in the country um I think that's two years running now so it's we it's our intent to put up the best possible truck stop that we can and if there's concerns about crime that you guys have we have the same concern we don't want them in there either so we do overp put cameras on our lot you can you can't go anywhere on our lot without being spotted by a camera that's the way it goes so I when Chief said that there's only been you know a couple of thefts and you know only a handful of calls that weren't you know made by the police dep themselves I was happy to hear that cuz it's it's our goal to make it as safe as humanly possible when we put up a site yeah yeah I mean just with everything to the to the east of this property with RDO ststone King Solutions and then the proposed property on the north side of Territorial Road they're like that's all semi and warehousing space that's like it just to me it just makes sense to have that kind of use on that property especially if that whole area is going to be slated as that like just working within the confines of what we've decided to do in the last four years to that area so where my mind sets got more I don't have anymore I've already said in my piece I supported it two years ago I'll come forward now um can we get yeah John can you come on up yeah and and nobody can tell me that that can tell me better than John that he hasn't done his job yeah can you just kind go ahead state your name and address my name is John Rous I'm with kushman and Wakefield I'm a land broker which I've been for the last 25 years um I got a team of four people that work exclusively in the Twin Cities area with me selling land we've sold thousands of acres in the Northwest Metro Roger Dayton Maple Grove we work with guys like Amazon Ziggler caterpillar RDO samstone um and our team is sold um we've been one of the top producing teams in the in North America actually so we want to sell this property for RDO we don't care to who we approach quick trip on the front end um we know these folks I've got a young daughter I got a young son I got a wife and you know when we propose different different sites to Quick Trip in the past and if they're in marginal areas they'll say no because they make their employees their um it's an ESOP and they call them Partners they don't call them employees sorry Dan so we've been trying to sell this land for the last four years I checked earlier today um we'll take all comers we don't care if it's a a quick trip or Circle K or whomever my job and my fiduciary responsibility is to RDO the owner the land owner they're one of our clients we respect them we like them they do a safe um store and as you all know they they come from the food service industry uh not the petroleum industry they got dairies they got I don't need to tell you about quick trip but they you know they they take care that their food is Priced Right and they're going to be the biggest grocery store in town and probably one of the biggest restaurants so um to let you all know the users that have come forward that have wanted to be there have been other um industrial users you got a railroad track that you know right before 81 so that between there and the in the freeway you've got an industrial pocket whether we like it or not so the industrial users are who we've seen we've had used car dealers we've had um other truck stops we're under contract briefly with Circle K which does a holiday franchise um Zach you and I talked about that earlier today that was a brief a brief St um a lot of folks that like to service trucks and trailers and be next to samstone and I sold the king solution property at one point so it's people that service those sort of uh businesses and that's what it's set up for and I think it's great you guys have lots of other land I know we've talked with the Planning Commission that will be wonderful wonderful hearts of the city and you got a Vibrant Community and you're you're growing responsibly and um and I that I'm a land owner here I love it here so I'm part of the community you know whether I like it or not not and I'm I'm endorsing it and I'm trying hard to sell it and um there's nothing more I can do to bring a different type of user here and and just out of curiosity why do you think that property is hard to move I mean it's right on the freeway is it just just its elevation is it no you just you have other like industrial users indust IAL users like to be next to other industrial users or people that service them you will not I promise you 25 years of doing this you're not going to get um you know a a hotel you know other than a Transit oriented Hotel um you're not going to get a medical clinic they all are there's still plenty of room down in Maple Grove they they need to be next to schools if it's pediatric or next to the hospital you know take the take the run off there um we could probably sell it for another Warehouse definitely another truck repair truck RH that sort of thing think we get a restaurant over there be difficult it'll have to be in conjunction with something else unless it's just going to be a Denise or something that pulls them off the off the interstate um there's not enough daytime or nighttime traffic so it'll fail okay as as a family restaurant right there yeah you know it'll be it just be Transit oriented thank you yeah and we right we we've called thousands of any else question uh so Tim hutner is on he's on the Eda and he's endorsed the Eda has endorsed and agreed um with council member Henderson um as he's expressed his opinion okay all right well thank you too um Can can I just clear one thing yeah we so John said we're in ESOP we're so it's actually an election our owners make to give 40% of the profits back to the co-workers so we don't own it officially it's it comes in the form of us as a cash bonus at the end of the year so it's money that they could retain themselves but they usually give it to people who work in the store that's kind of a thank you to keep the store good as we can make it as clean as we can make it as safe as we can make it as as we can make it yeah it's a good idea thank you real estate thank you okay so we have uh pre resoning um should we be doing you can either do them individually mayor or you can do them as one joint uh whatever we like to do anybody have any discussion about the cup the conditional use so Mr Mayor so there there's two action items the first is the ordinance Amendment so this is an amendment to the zoning map to rezone it from uh BP Business Park to B three General business and then the second action item is the resolution which approves the uh preliminary plant final plant uh conditional use permit for motor fuel station and site plan um one item on the resolution I'd like to make amendment to item number eight related to the traffic signal that uh Quick Trip would submit a um escrow rather than a cash payment is the county going to be okay the light there I'm assuming so we're talking about it but when we turn the road over them are they going to be okay with the light there Jason yeah the city has full jurisdiction as of today um we would be I'm when we turn it back over to them we would be communicating with them I think full expectations are that it will be signalized when Justified okay thank you we don't expect any negative if that doesn't get signal doesn't get a signal added before we turn it over to them then they get the escrow or we keep the escrow it's a good detail it I don't think we've worked out okay yes yeah I was going to say it'd be great if we could keep it they're going to ask us for 20% anyways we money pay for ite okay thank you any other questions I'm waiting for Scott it's going to we would have a an es I'm going to call it an escrow agreement or something similar to that effect okay Scott did you want to did I want to what keep us moving keep it moving yeah I don't have any problem with it I mean the the traffic like the money that's involved in I didn't know if you want to make the motion as well saying oh yeah I'll make the motion but I mean that we do need to have some kind of language that there is going to be some money for the traffic light yep so yeah mayor's members of council the idea would be to add it to the developer agreement with um quick drips approval that would be a cash payment um related to the amount of traffic generated by if there's a quick trip here how many additional traffic turns and lanes and all that stuff would be happening at this inter section to be able to have those res or those um users be able to get out of the intersection safely without causing any left turn issues back on of the parkway CU it is kind of a larger intersection at that point um and it's hard to get out of that area so so do we do a traffic count now so can I just and then traffic on after yeah well all Park IDE we saw we saw condition 8 come up on Thursday and we said I think we can get you guys more accurate data the amount of vehicles trucks cars that are using our sites on a daily or weekly basis so we'll do that but we just couldn't get that number for you by the time we had this meeting tonight so we're going to run some numbers internally and get you guys an accurate number for the traffic generation on our site and then when to get applied to some cost allocation for the light if that's fair y y that's fair thank you thanks sir I'll make a motion to approve okay both or just one both just do them both get it done with do them both I need a second I'll second any other discussion anything else we to clean up with that okay all those in favor say I I I all those against say no no all right that was four to one and it passed all right item M thank you this is approval for the final plat for revised final plat for Dayton Fields fourth edition uh this was previously approved by the council in December 2023 um as a two lot subdivision uh the intention at that time was the developer had uh two buyers uh at since then one of the buyers has dropped out of the project uh the developer is requesting approval of one lot and one out lot and so the only change since this was previously approved December is that there's an out out lot or as previously it was a lot so uh the intention is once there is a buyer for Outlaw a it would be replanted as a lot in block and you would see this again I'll motion that we approve this a second discussion I thought when we did this that there was some sort of in uh dependence between between those two lots and I don't remember what it was um maybe it had to do with the ponding or there there was something that the fact that they were both being developed at the same time doesn't ring bell with anybody yeah so mayor members of council what I believe you're referring to is that we this was the first time we ever had a plat that was doing both lots to two individual um businesses that were not related so we normally would plat one at a time and then have one person so we had a um on the development agreement we had to essentially break out each individual's portion which I think is what you're mentioning and then we had the developer be the person who had to front all the money in order to get it through because we had to get the dollars from one spot in order to get the Myers filed so this was that was the first time we've ever done two lots with two different applicants at the same time with one developer um normally like I said it's either one full developer doing everything and then they handle everything and pay it you know hand it off for like residential or whatever but and who uh services that pond be private it will be private okay yeah what's shown on the aial is a white land well the the existing one would be part of the city system with oh wait yeah so we would the constructed ponds on the sites are both responsibility of the individual owners okay anybody else have questions than that we've got a motion in a second okay um all those in favor say I I all those oppos say no carries 5 to zero item n um say you yeah okay I it a John thank you that's a John one um and a Zach one too so uh so I I'm going to say off and on because I I think we've discussed this a number of times the need or the desire for a referendum in the future on a number of different topics and uh the last discussion I believe was at the April 23rd council meeting and it kind of led into the question what what do the residents want and um so let's ask uh and the direction that Council gave to to staff was to do a little bit more research uh we had a conversation with Peter Leatherman of the Morris letherman group on opinion surveys and how that functions and and how as a scientific survey so I believe we have Peter here I don't see him here we don't have Peter here yet 30 minutes early so we are 30 minutes early that's a good sign I I guess so maybe what my suggestion would be is to push this off in time until Peter shows up yeah I was on time but you guys didn't yeah so the idea would be to have so Morris Leatherman company has done this type of survey for a lot of communities including Champlain including Lakeville including um Apple Valley um a numerous groups and then bla I think he did one for many cities yeah many many cities so he's done this over lots of cities and he uses statistics and math to figure out who he's calling when he's calling them what he's looking for information it's all about what the council is looking for for information so I wrote some of these things on that we've heard in the past like should we adjust residential speed limits should we look at building a sports complex should Dayton move to another County should we start leving additional dollars for the ability to speed up the build out of LC Stevens should we start leving additional dollars for trail connectivity so what we're looking for tonight is topics and I was hoping that U Mr letherman would be here to help us with those topics but basically looking for topics from the council we could generate some questions send those back to the council and say do these look good um essentially what he has is he has a set of Staff that's behind him and they all they do is make calls all day long to different communities asking questions and the questions are not 5-second questions they will send spend what 30 minutes roughly on the phone with them from what he had mentioned I mean so it's a dedicated amount of time hang up within 30 seconds correct yeah so if somebody hangs up within 30 seconds then he will then pick somebody else with the same criteria of that person um like they're black in their 50s with kids or something along the lines of that and he has all the data from a National Database he goes it's amazing what you can find on the internet so are we going to tackle this or are we going to wait for him to get here so I we can talk about a little bit maybe then seems like yeah yeah so we could we're going to repeat it again yeah you know what that's probably true probably smart all right we will let's just move in put it be before s a little recess back bre do we need a no I don't know already just trying to help you guys we still got a couple hours Budd I'll leave but not yet Mr May Council I will recommend putting n before s that way it's the last item on the agenda if we get to it great and we can always move around okay I will do that for just for now for there no objections okay um item o fire study yep mayor members cult we have BG Youngman with fitchen Associates um here to give us the presentation um on the fire study and then we will look for acceptance of that fire study at the end take it away PJ thank you thank you good evening Mr Mayor members of the council I'm BJ jungman uh senior consultant with fit Associates uh here to present the final uh draft of the study uh just a reminder fit and Associates the Nationwide Public Safety consulting firm been here for been in business for four decades uh We've consulted in all 50 states uh every Canadian providence in 12 other countries and again we do police Fire EMS and emergency dispatch Consulting uh when we look at at studies uh we really kind of look at this balanced approach to things and really on one side you have risk and performance demand operation Staffing and growth and on the other side you have service expectations the fiscal realities kind of long-term sustainability and really trying to figure out uh what's the acceptable level of risk uh for a community and how do you plan for that uh the good thing is you have a very well performing Department uh that is similar to what we see in many other Suburban or developing communities um you have you have many of the same uh challenges that other communities have and we'll talk about those as we go along particularly uh weekday daytime response with paid on call staff um we started this project back in January 2023 uh we kicked it off in March of 2023 uh we met with staff Council in April and May in 2023 and I would just note that there was a significant delay trying to get uh usable data out of the Dispatch Center we didn't get that until August of 2023 uh I was back with you last fall uh november-ish to uh talk through the data report uh we prepared a final draft and then received feedback and then we're here today and we've had multiple meetings uh in communication with the city staff throughout the process um you know that your your Comm as well as anybody uh just really quick here is you have very limited water supply in much of your community where you do actually have Municipal Water Supply and it's not enough to really provide Fire Protection Services it's more of a domestic water and also that you're outpacing what your comp plan projections are and the point of that really is that population density is an indicator of static risk within a community that's not the only driver of risk but it is definitely an important factor of risk um you you know your uh comp plan well of what your 20 240 future land use the reason I talk about this is that Dynamic risk can really be increased with specific populations and socioeconomic statuses uh the National Fire Academy talks about a handful of things such as older adults uh people with disabilities people who smoke low income populations uh ethnic minority minority groups and and uh lwi income so all of those tend to be drivers of fire risk here's a side by side of response times and the biggest variable here is the E where the firefighters drive to the station currently you're primarily a paid on call response so once the firefighters get the call they have to drive to the fire station get their equipment on board the fire apparatus and leave any change to your model would bring the firefighters into the station and eliminate that drive time so your biggest change in Impact your response time really can be eliminating that drive time to the station where they can live up to 10 minutes away from the fire station currently we covered these and I know we're crunched for time so I'm not going to spend much time on it but um this was in the data report uh the biggest thing here is you're really transitioning to a suburban community from a from an industry standard standpoint when you look at population density you're currently considered rural uh once you hit about that 12,000 Mark you're going to be considered suburban and you currently meet the volunteer rural response time of 14 minutes uh with a 12 minute 90th percentile but once you hit that 12,000 population the industry best practice is really for volunteer department at 10 minutes so the the time comes down as the density goes up uh when you look at projections for service uh the blue line is a projection based on the Last 5 Years of call volume projecting out really the next six years um and in 2030 you're about a little over 800 00 calls and then we did some static projections a four a six and a 10% year-over-year that's generally what we're seeing departments uh growth is anywhere from 4 to 10% six is about the average of what we see uh notable is 75% of the demand is related to Medical emergencies and that's absolutely what we see somewhere between 70 and 85% depending on the population in the community really the type of development you have in the next couple of decades is going to impact that projection significant ly as you start to think about what you're bringing to town again notable here is the the highest demand for service is really that 8:00 a.m. to 8 or 900 p.m. time frame where you're at about 1.1 call per hour so basically during that hour of the day every 10th day you're having a call during 88 to 9:00 a.m. or 9:00 to 10 a.m. um so you got a 10% chance each hour during the day for a call the bottom is ref fire staff turnout by hour of day and day a week and what you see in the red there is from 7:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. particularly uh Monday through Thursday you have the lowest turnout of your paid on call staff and frankly your biggest risk for uh uh service disruption or the inability to be reliable is that daytime weekday call volume so your highest demand is when you have the lowest turnout and that's not unique that is a national issue that is a definitely an issue we see in Minnesota and particularly around the Metros as as communities are dealing grappling with uh Suburban Staffing of fire departments so we looked at um really where your uh call volume is so the left is a heat map of all your calls the right is the difference between rural is in green and oranges and Suburban based on the number of calls in that half square mile uh or quar Square Mile Square and what you see is that you do have uh some hotpots the most distant point from your current fire stations and most of your development is is slated to happen most distant from your fire stations and that's also an area where you're already considered uh Suburban by the the density of call volume I'm just going to skip to this uh basically with with two fire stations you can hit uh well I'll go back with two fire stations currently you can hit 72% of the call volum with an 8-minute drive time that does not include the time for the firefighter to get to the fire station that's from the fire trucks leaving the fire station and what you notice is that bottom left or southwest corner is where you have the least uh coverage from an 8 minute drive time standpoint adding a third station somewhere down in that neighborhood will raise your uh capture rate for an 8 minute drive time to over 90% when you consider adding that fire station we think a methodical approach which is very important to make sure that you have both the physical and the human resources aligned because just because you put a fire station there if you're still heavily relying on a paid on call staff you aren't guaranteed that you're going to have paid on call staff interested and available down there and as you build that out you're also going to need leadership at that station which requires some experience so uh we do think if you're going to procure land uh the next thing is doing a pilot facility do something that's you know 100 or 200,000 where you have enough to put a firet truck and some gear and see if you can recruit people down there try and staff it and then that gives you the opportunity to recruit and develop them and train them if that works out and you can get enough staff down there then it makes sense to design a permanent facility and build it and then getting additional equipment that is more permanent down there so we broke out our recommendations or Alternatives and what I would tell you is the first alternative that's kind of assumed in this whole report is the do nothing alternative is nothing says you have to do anything in here um but it does give you the Alternatives So currently the stations have no additional room for equipment or sleeping quarters they're pretty tight uh we talked about the alignment of physical and human resources for station three if you were to build it and really the long-term best practice for Dayton would be two strategically located fire stations one on the south and one on the North really between Station 1 and two currently is ideal on the north end of town um so we talked about some of those things uh in the short term already um and the midterm is building that facility currently fire stations are going for 12 to 15 million in the current dollars obviously if you build it in the future it's likely going to cost more and then the long term is looking at those two uh strategically located fire stations currently your model is primarily paid on call staff with a full-time Chief and assistant chief really any movement down that Staffing Continuum will eliminate the drive time to the fire station our recommendations for Staffing is to have three full-time administrative staff that can handle most of the weekday daytime calls since the majority are medical calls that they can handle with two or three people um so we think either a fire marshal or fire inspector and your assistant chief uh they range generally about 120 to 150,000 fully loaded with Benefits is a range that we generally see and then determine the interest in the payon call in the South End of the community uh solicit input and and look at a Duty Crew during select hours and letting that demand or that turnout help determine when's the best time we see departments sometimes jump into 247 Duty Crews and the challenge with that is the same problem you have today with turnout during the day during the week is the same problem with expecting them to sign up for daytime Duty Crew shifts is you have the least amount of turnout because most people work a a daytime weekday hour shift so um if you were to do that and paid them approximately $25 an hour it's 219,000 for one seat 247 that doesn't include any training that's just the coverage just to kind of give you a position of reference we do think it would make sense to have some uh Reserve funds available so that if your system does fail sooner than we think it will you have funds to transition quicker to a more career or more uh staffed uh op operation and again that four to S years we tend to see people expand to more Duty Crews more hours and make sure that you start to prepare your stations to for overnight accommodations and then long-term either 247 Duty Crews or evaluate the need for additional full-time staff uh Dispatch Center you don't own but it is a very important piece of your operation uh it's owned and operated by the county sheriff really dispatching by unit will be important one of the challenges was to get good data is the way that your dispatch limits your ability to uh to collect and analyze data to find out how long it's taking the Dispatch Center to process versus how long it's taking the firefighters to get to the fire station versus the trucks driving to the scene so changing that up a little bit would be helpful also with that full-time staff reducing when you're calling for your paid on call staff to come in again if it's those minor calls or those medical calls not toning them out and asking them to come to every single call will help with that there's some other things in there about advocating for call taking procedures and quality assurance they currently don't have those resources when we look at your Fleet uh we think combination vehicles would fit the organization well due to the lower utilization compared to some of other organizations and really the risk that you have uh really we think that if you bought a quint um that's the second line down which is a combination engine and Ladder could save you $2 million instead of having to buy another engine and have four engines and a ladder um and long-term really combining an engine and a heavy rescue again could save you from having additional Vehicles when the heavy rescue is due to be replaced so this just lays out those recommendations uh one thing that's important here is is lead times are two to four years on these apparatus right now they're not turning out very quickly prior to co it was about 12 to 18 months and now you're looking at 2 to 4 years depending on the manufacturer uh an engine is currently costing about 1 to 1.2 million a ladder two to 2 and a half million a quint one to 1.8 to 2.2 million again it all depends on how you spec it and what you get on it um so if you're going to have a station three and you have a construction plan ordering those apparatus early are going to be important so that you have the resources when you have the Station built and again consider adjusting your Fleet replacement schedules to include variables such as reliability cost of ownership and condition um age is generally what we see but the best practice really is to have these other variables because the reliability and cost ownership can be much higher and it would be more resourceful to get rid of that apparatus sooner if you're starting to have issues uh when we look at equipment really um some equipment will be uh determined on a long-term plan if there's three stations so some of these QB determines depends on whether your long-term plan is to go to two strategically located stations or if you're going to stay at three and also what your model is going to be if you go to a more staff model whether that's Duty Crew or full-time you don't need as many air packs because you only need them for the riding seats that they're in you don't need one for essentially every firefighter uh same thing with the gear washer there's no reason to buy one if you're not going to have three stations Long Term don't invest in some of that stuff that you could consolidate back to two so having a comprehensive list and plan um of all the equipment would be helpful on the training front you have a comprehensive training schedule one important thing is you have a number of new firefighters here that really need uh skill repetitions to gain their confidence and competence and you really have no training facility readily available to them uh the example I use in the report is if they wanted to go do ladders they'd be throwing ladders on the side of the building and potentially damaging the building there's no real training facility uh easily accessible to them uh to train in what do other cities do in that for the latter example what do other cities do they just use a side their building yeah unfortunately uh a lot of people use the side of the building they make do with what they have training facilities uh are becoming more prevalent though um and some of them are built where they don't necessarily have an aluminum cap and they have some opportunities or they have an interior mezzanine that they could lad to things like that so thank I would just tell you newer stations generally all those things built into the fire station everything but live fire training is built into most new modern fire stations so they can train on site that gives you a lot of ability to make it easy to train also if you get a call you can leave the equipment there secure and you don't have to worry about someone getting injured so uh that's the nice part when you design a new station you can include a lot of those things on the training front again you're doing a lot of great things There's an opportunity to maximize a hybrid approach where you do some online training and skill-based training uh also a switch to ACC Competency Based training right now most uh fire departments operate on the number of hours you sit in the seat for training not that how many skills you've done them that you're competent at them so going to a Competency Based training really has skill checklist for every major skill to make sure everybody's competent and not that they sat there for so many hours and we're an advocate of changing to more Competency Based training because it's a better utilization of their time and make sure that they're proficient so we also think ensuring training specific to each responsibility is good with industry practice lots of people focus on driving the fire apparatus and pumping it and then the basic firefighting skills and EMS skills but things like your fire officers are they getting the leadership training that they need right and developing that and that's a common thing for firefighter fire departments to work on um I know they're working on the department is working on establishing new policies and guidelines and just making sure that the policies and guidelines align with the training and competency checks so the expectations are standard so you don't write one thing here do it different here and have checks that are different here you want it to be an alignment across there so those are the short-term recommendations on training uh on the fire prevention front we think a full-time Fire Marshall a fire inspector will help ensure important code uh Provisions are present particularly as you develop uh your opportunity to make sure that those things like access are built when a building is built and that you can get all the important pre-incident plan information so firefighters have information at their fingertip when there is an emergency there um the other piece of that is when you do hire somebody like that they can Implement a comprehensive Community risk Reduction Program which is really a targeted databased approach to to fire prevention and injury prevention instead of just going to all the schools and providing information or going to certain businesses you can really say here's where our targeted approach should be here's where our risks are because we've we've gone through the data and we've looked at where we're having the fires where we're having the injuries where we're having the issues issues and really Target those things um So currently from an organizational administrative standpoint uh you have uh the chief assistant chief you have two Captain slots one's vacant at station one and you have two lieutenants uh congratulations to council member Henderson as promotion to Lieutenant tonight thank you um if there was an additional station added um again you'll need to think about the leadership and how do you create that succession for them we spoke a little bit about the policy and procedure manual but it's important to have relevant and upto-date policies and procedures uh providing opportunities for input from line staff on these decisions are important and fulltime staff can really help with weekday daytime coverage for instance and ensure the department has appropriate documentation and planning one thing I noted in the report is federal OSHA has an 832 page uh uh update to the fire brigade standard out for public comment that they say within six to 24 months they plan to publish uh that has a number of administrative responsibility changes and training changes for fire departments and EMS providers so that standard hasn't been updated since the early 1980s and it's a big swing so we expect we're a Fed we're State OSHA State uh so we have to follow the state or the federal OSHA and we anticipate that those will impact Us in the next couple years here I do have some specifics cuz what I'm hearing is they're devastating yeah I I uh I'm losing them off the top of my head right now but but I mean it it is anything and everything like fire gear enforcing fire gear at 10 years has to be destroyed it's a it's a recommendation in an NFP now it will now be an OSHA violation if you don't so every 10 years all the fire gear has to be replaced that includes helmets things like that again this is all draft and it could change um there's a a ton of training requirements uh around every job you got to do a risk analysis on everything that firefighters uh perform and show that you have training for every specific job performance requirement sure again a lot of these weren't National Fire Protection Association standards and they are best practice but they weren't required out of Osha now they are calling them out by name in oia um so you have a lot of references to standards that are adopted by NFPA that will now become enforcable by OSHA so um there's there could be some significant impacts to the fire service for sure we are keeping our eyes on and it's definitely going to have an impact if it were published as as it's written today uh the chief alluded to this a little bit earlier but data recommendations is really uh the data is generic and not granular enough to determine uh the areas impacting the response times the best we're using what our experience is um to project that today uh but really you have an opportunity here to with a records management system to collect better data so you can do a better evaluation as you implement different things within the organization we talked about pre-incident planning and risk reduction information and really making sure you have quality assurance to have complete and accurate data uh firefighters are not great at writing reports it's been a long-term problem and the data isn't great uh another thing at the national level is next year they're rolling out a new National data collection system on the fire side so it should be more updated again the current system was built in the 80s so [Music] with that I'll stand for any questions I know I ran through it quick but wanted to be efficient because I know we have a full agenda tonight any have questions sure one thing that um it doesn't seem like the report spends much time on 75% of our calls are medical and we're not looking at equipment or ways to improve response to those kind of calls um I don't think any of that was really addressed in the report yeah uh Mr council member I we didn't have a lot of granular data on it so it was tough to say even necessarily what types of medical calls they are other than they were medical um I know you have the standard medical gear and I know the chief has taken the step to train people to the EMT level instead of EMR level um we have seen elongating response times of private EMS providers so that's why we didn't touch like which EMS calls they should go on or anything like that because that that quick quick response from a city uh Public Safety agency lots of times we'll beat a private ambulance provider to provide uh initial care to a patient I guess I was struck by that too given the volume of medical calls versus everything else and it just seemed like that was like the elephant in the room I sure it just seems like we should be doing something aimed at that um you thinking like amb ambulance service because there's an extreme shortage of ambulance workers correct I mean this is just from what I know I mean you probably know but my wife works in the industry too and that's what she was saying is they have really hard time do it soon if we had an ambulance I understand it's a challeng it doesn't make the problem go away and I wish the report would have spent more time I don't disagree one bit Yeah if I can just add to that there is a shortage of EMS workers just like there is firefighters um volunteer firefighters what's unique about Minnesota is that there's not much control locally over your ambulance provider whoever owned that license years ago owns it today and it's pretty challenging to overtake that at this point there's some some efforts at the state level to try to change the regulation on that so to modernize it but they're not there yet so your your hands are a little tied other than if you want to locally first respond that's about your best local option any other questions this is kind of expanding on that portion like if it was another leg of the service that the fire department would provide I don't think you would get any any volunteers to step up at least right now for that so I think that would be kind of like you if you if Dayton decided to go down that road to provide that service that would be a full-time couple full-time position at least four or more for just EMS Provisions just just from my understanding I just reading the the temperature in the room from the guys that I work with like ain't nobody about ready to start doing that I guess as far as dat fire goes CH if you got anything mayor and members of the council yeah I mean it's uh you know it's not a uh well I guess it depends some agencies have been able to gain some Revenue if you will MH Enterprise funds from BLS and ALS service but at the same time understand that's that at Medicare Medicaid rates which is not going to make us rich by any shape of the imagination and then the cost associated with that um is is not advantageous from my perspective yeah I don't know that I was thinking necessarily of a specific Target what what I was thinking simply was a lot of our calls are medical a lot of our calls don't require um ladder truck engine tanker they don't need that they need emergency vehicle and It just strikes me as odd that we that we don't have something um at least down in this area where we can improve that portion of whatever 75% or I don't remember what it was now but um yeah we so from that capacity we are looking at um like we have a rescue that we have here and like next year's budget um rescue 11 we're splitting or in the in the CIP we have scheduled $100,000 for another resky more of a Suburban type vehicle with medical equipment and then spreading off our grass rig so we have specific grass rig because right now that vehicle is is too large that's where we've been able to reduce that CIP from about 500,000 450 in the past we dropped that down I think about 100,000 a piece in the CIP but though so we've been able to reduce that cost the biggest challenge that we have and is that delayed response from our service provider as BJ alluded to I'll give you an example the other day we had a motorcycle accident on salt diamond and that particular truck um was the Princeton truck that responded to this geographic location um because they did not have North Memorial did not have an ambulance able to respond um we sat on and closed down south diamond for probably at least 30 minutes waiting for that next available truck so us as BJ said trying to bridge that Gap hence my push to move towards EMT be able to help those that are in need during that uh weight um has been extremely helpful in that capacity but to your point I mean that that is probably 75% of our calls if we could only educate the public on the appropriate use of 911 honestly he good I have volunteered in Mercy for 3 years and no exactly what you're talking about so Gary are you saying like a long game of that is like putting Bodies In Like A a more efficient vehicle rather than like yeah we we want to be efficient yeah yeah but we're not going to SP you know we're going to talk about a ladder truck soon we're not going to spend a send a$2 and half million dollar piece of apparatus to respond to the St toe yeah it just yeah I hear you anybody else no well well I guess I I didn't expect us to solve that Gap tonight um I I just wanted to point out that it was mainly a gap in the report that um we didn't talk more about it since it is 75% of our costs um the other comment I want to make is that I'm pretty disappointed that this report is a year late and we could have used this well when we when we expected it a year ago um would have been would have been helpful I'm glad to have it but I I don't know what what all went hay whereare and I not so sure I care anymore um I'm just disappointed that we're this far off scheduled understandable um my biggest question is what does accepting this mean we've already paid for it so it's immaterial yeah so because the sorry mayor members of council because the report has been done by fit we need to accept it as a document that we're going to be able to utilize doesn't mean we have it's not a Bible by any means we have to follow it word for word but it's going to be a basically no different than the other studies we've done in the past no different than the David ronus one when we did that a couple years ago we accepted the report of what they did for the work doesn't mean that we approved it and said it's going to be the B so we're accepting the product they exactly and that doesn't necessarily bind us internally correct um I did have a curiosity um that I like to so in I don't know if you can go back to the three station solution oh that one yeah I don't remember at that at that time um that bottom station is right on that forfeit property yeah yeah we chose the we just chose the portion just to figure out an area Okay so that was that was us giving you information correct I just thought it was very odd it was no it just happens to be the one that we've been talking about and at the time when we looked at it we said okay that's a that's a potential spot for it we didn't have any other potential spots at that time said pick a spot down there and that was one now one one option that I didn't see in here that would have been nice is I mean right now we know and and at the time we were looking at this property but it still would I think to me make sense to consolidate those two stations is there if we were to go this route is that consolidation not as beneficial as yeah so uh Mr Mayor if you look on you probably don't have in front of you but page 15 of the report um has an optimized 8 Minute response time which shows the best location if you were to have two fire stations I didn't put in in here for the the purposes of time but it shows you where the optimal location is to to have the most coverage with an 8 minute drive time so it shows up in that that Northern Corridor uh where to put that centralized station between station one and station two and that wipes out any any property issues or anything so there may not be property available where it says but that is just a GIS like if we could optimize it and say that was available that would be the best place to put it and mayor members call just for your information it's Fernbrook in 125th Street it would be uh location one location two would be Diamond Lake in zanthus and BJ correct me if I'm wrong but based on that we would end up with a 96% capture rate of 8 Minute response time correct 8 minute drive time would be 8 minute drive time would get you 96% of the calls based on what you had I'd be curious to know what happens if you put it behind State uh Public Works what the percentage would I was going to say that's what I'm saying it's only like less than a mile dep where your call is I mean right um do you have something to say no my concern is more about like when I look at the I agree it makes sense try to get to the third station where it will ultimately be versus trying to move it like we have to move the other two eventually my concern is I think we we ultim have to be will be decades until we get water there mhm C through in water just 20 50 plus yeah so that's what I'm trying to weigh when I think about this is like okay how do I weigh you know we have a spot now that could work whether it's the spot in that General location we have a general location that could work to get us there I always thought it made more sense closer to 17th and where D Parkway will be origal stud and then the other one further north probably off like by uh Public Works I thought eventually but yep we have to the land so that goes back to the other conversation well yeah we can get the land and maybe the water that I don't know if we get the land so yeah May mayor M cult we can do is like we can ask I said BJ's team just to run it based on new routes and new information that we have from um noted here is that this one doesn't have Zanzibar pave so that's why it's not connected on Zanzibar and the the graph that's true it also does not have Dayton Parkway completed either so that's why it's you can't go so far down 117th Avenue without getting Nest cuz Dayton Parkway wasn't completed at that time which doesn't go into the gis system so we should have one to that looks at date workway in its final State um yeah so we could have is stantech has run GIS numbers for us before of response times and drive times whatever and we can have them run it too they have our Maps up to date um we can ask stantech to run it and it doesn't take over all that long I think we've done it in a week or so and brought it back to us um and we could have them do that too for response times and drive times and whatever it takes yeah get them back to council most certainly like a weekly update or even at the future council meeting if that's what you like yeah yeah I just to me it just seems like if we can we should be SE we should be shooting for that wherever we park it now it's going to be there for decades in 80 years that is the that is the direction that we're hope that will be the goal of us yeah that is the goal and direction of Staff correct anything else I've got one more I wanted to ask go ahead um Gary when it comes down to like providing proficient data they notated in this report about making some changes as far as like working with dispatch and things of that nature is that's something that aside from Echo I'm guessing Echo is going to need that data too but they're going to need some changes with how we operate with dispatch to Bine that data correctly because right now I think it's identified as gaps so what we are doing mayor and council member Henderson what we're doing is we've added data or data or Echo data analytics and to pull real-time data from our records management system we haven't had that in the past so now as real- time data continues to update in our RMS system I can go in I have a dashboard um we're looking at um having a console dashboard or potentially a City View dashboard that can be viewed online um but what that does for us is it gives us that real-time data today the other thing that we're doing as BJ alluded to right now is um we are moving forward and uh changing our records management system so come September um we will be the contract um is being generated right now um from uh first due is the records management system that we're moving towards um there's multiple reasons to move to that um it's about um you'll see it at a future council meeting um I contract on annual basis is around $10,500 um in that capacity so that will help us with gaining more efficiencies and better data um right now data out of our current records management system is difficult to data mine if you will from a dispatch perspective unfortunately we don't have as BJ said we don't have a lot of control over that the one thing that I would love to see hen County dispatch add is GIS Within The Dispatch Center because right now if I make a change for our box alarms as alluded to during the um work session or make any of those things it takes them forever to make those and it has nothing to do with dispatch it has to do with those resources that are allocated from the county to the Dispatch Center so right now on a on a separate note we're trying to get uh County dispatch to monitor all of our activity is right now we have the fire main that we go in route on and then we have our operations channel the problem with our operations channel is that isn't monitored from a safety perspective so right now Brooklyn Park is doing a um trial period where if that's a significant event with two pieces of apparatus fire alarm extrication fire whatever fire automatically go there so I take that one out we move to what's called fire and H hin 3 and four or cby 5 6 7 8 9 10 it before I was wondering what was going on with that yeah so what they're trying to do is get dispatch to monitor that so from a safety perspective the problem is is henpen is not set up to uh they're very limited and I asked the question at the last henan Chiefs meeting of when they train dispatchers they train them to it's law enforcement Ecentric dispatch system it works well for chief Ina and the law enforcement officers it doesn't work that well for fire so Ramsey County has really done a good job in looking at how they dispatch you know they have St Paul and everything else recently you may have seen them on the news talking about their Dispatch Center but we're trying to force the hand so to speak collectively from the Chiefs Association to have them make our ability from a fire dispatch uh more robust because right now literally they have one dispatcher that's dedicated to Fire and they don't they barely have two so often even if Brooklyn Park in their trial asks for a henin 3 and four they're doing it to be monitored sometimes um a lot of times it's not because they don't have the Staffing so again it's those resources that we need to have henen County dispatch put into play it's no different than what we always complain about here is roads from hen County for say trying to get them to put those is this is another aspect of that from a safety perspective from the chief's Association within hen Kelly long answer to your question but there's lots of moving pieces as it relates to it do I want to get to thank you any other questions take a motion to accept the fire study I'll make a motion second second where it gets dropped it got dropped okay I'll I'll fine I'll second we need to we're just approving the exceptions of the report correct correct that's fine all right H does I mean it's just approving the motion doesn't me have to vote one way or the other either way that's all it is that's all it is okay okay any other discussion um all those in favor say I I yes all those poos say name thank you thanks PJ we could have done that 35 minutes ago okay go back do you want to go back to end uh I think your guy is out there now yeah y yeah let's go back back in okay um s yes all right you all them in here John there you 12,000 slides thank you we're back to 20 minutes ahead of schedule like that yeah okay I don't think we get much for slides on okay pet Peter you come up here so uh this is Peter Leatherman of Morris Leatherman group and none of this has anything to do with the oh here go back sorry okay oh got to click on the slide again oh there we go there so just just a real brief uh reintroduction um at the last count keep going great okay uh April 23rd council meeting uh we had uh some discussion about upcoming question potential questions for referendum uh Council directed staff to do a little bit more res search as staff had a conversation with Morris letherman group and uh brought Peter letherman here to kind of explain the process of their process of um scientific opinion surveys so that's the quick 30 second introduction there should I be really quick here to oh take your time give us name and address and then and then do it all right it's a pleasure to be here with you this evening uh to talk about uh scientific uh telephone surveys uh my company it used to be decision resources we've been doing this it's been in business since 1983 uh 2013 I became a partner and we switched over to the Morris Leatherman company uh primarily we work with local units of government uh primarily cities primarily school districts um with cities it's primarily working looking at quality of life surveys uh most cities will check in with their residents over some sort of set time frame some cities do it every year uh some cities do it every 6 years um a lot of it depends on the growth in the city uh when you look at residents uh especially the group of less than fiveyear residents when you that gets to be 20% that means in 5 years you have 1/5th of your population has turned over and that can obviously impact uh what a community feels and what they think about city government um what we're talking about some of the specific topics we discussed and I think this came up uh the discussion on a potential survey especially looking at potentially some sort of referendum uh for Park facilities um and we just uh worked with um Apple Valley helping past I think there was about 6768 million uh Park Bond referendum last year and that survey process um they did two surveys uh the first one was to establish the guard rails um instead of just guessing what the community would support um you do a survey to see what the community would support how much they would support and then they tailored a plan with the fa the committee that they had to do a recommendation to councel once they had the plan then we went out and tested the specific plan to see uh if if it would have the chance to to pass and it was uh ultimately successful last November uh the process we use is a telephone survey it's the only way to get a statistically valid sample um you can do an internet survey you can do a mail out survey uh on an internet survey you have to keep in mind that 5 to 10% of people don't have access to the internet uh that's a very specific demographic over the age of 65 so you've biased your sample that way on a mail out survey I always make the joke my 23-year-old son has no idea where the mailbox is much more is he going to go take a survey out of the mailbox fill it out put a stamp and mail it back so you have that bias inherently uh beyond that who you hear from uh typically is your core opponents those that are against everything you might hear from the boosters and then you have 70 to 80% of people that are just living their lives um everything's fine they don't feel the need to weigh in um and so they don't respond so the typical response rate is 20 25% um what we do with a telephone survey first off everybody wonders about cell phones we've been surveying cell phones since 200 uh it just is necessary um in the metro area right now it's approximately cell phone only households are about 60% they're still about 10% landline only they exist and then the remainder have both landline and cell phone um so just generate a random sample off of that and because people care about their Community they live in on a school district or a city survey the non-response rate will keep under 10% now the survey might be you know it depends uh if it's a targeted survey just looking at referendum questions it might be 40 50 questions if it's a long quality of life survey where the city wants to understand how people feel about city services how they feel about taxes how they feel about Park and wreck how they feel about communication how they feel about development it can get to 150 160 questions um and so regardless because everybody's busy in life and if you get a phone call um most people don't answer the phone to start with uh so we leave them message introduce ourselves and we've worked with the city in order to indicate that uh we'll be you'll be conducting a survey um and then we call back and about 60% of the of of the uh calls are completed via appointment so it's when it's uh convenient for the person to take the survey not when it's convenient for us to give the survey and that's the key difference for quite frankly a lot of the bad polling you see out there what they do is call over the course of two nights whoever answer ERS the phone that's the survey and then they reweight on demographics we don't do any reweighting I'll have an expectation for my phoners how many households with seniors in Dayton how many households with children how many homeowners versus renters and we manage the sample because I don't want to rewe it uh because those those companies that do it in two nights you'll have 70% women because men don't answer the phone and then you'll also have about 60% over the age of 55 year olds so you've inherently biased the s against those with an active lifestyle um so that's the typical process that's why we do what we do um it's also why we've been so successful in helping cities and school districts uh help pass funding request um because it's a comprehensive look and I do think it's always best practice um 20 years ago uh typically if a city was looking at a community center they'd go through all the plans or a park Bond they'd come up with here's the plan go test it um what we kept finding over and over again is you had kind of an Insider Baseball look with the Committees um so they thought they knew they know what's needed okay but that might not necessarily be what the community would support and it started to become very difficult for me to come in with these groups and they've been working two three months on the pro on the on the project and say all your work doesn't have a snowball's chance of passing and so that's what we kind of established and thought about how about we set the guard rails for what's possible and operate within that as communities try to develop a plan so I think with that I've kind of thrown a lot of information at you I'd be happy to answer some questions so I'm curious since most people don't have landlines anymore how you're able to Target specific residences with cell phones uh there's there's a fan it's I mean it's developed it used to be 2007 uh I would purchase lists from the cell phone company I just had to sign a waiver saying that I'd have they take my child if I was selling anything um it was only for research purposes because that's the loophole politicians need polls um and so that's why the Do Not Call List doesn't apply um now there are tremendous databases out there so I have access to a database with every single resident um their voting history but I has their most importantly it has their Lon line or their cell phone in it and then for demographic data are you using the census for that information yes looking at updated census because now the census is already four years old um but the the census does an American Community survey within it every year um to try to keep it as fresh as possible which is important for a growing Community um you know just I think they included the city of Carver survey that we just completed a lot of similarities with the growth rates in the communities Carver census doesn't look anything four years later like it does now uh and similarly that would be that's why it's important to have that updated census information thank you you're welcome than you have anything I I looked through the Carver survey that they proposed I thought the questions in there were good I think they give us if we can get good answers and good data on them I think it gives us a good direction of kind of what we should or could do helps better better direct us I think we all have our own own opinions but I think at the end of the day we're trying all of us up here trying to do what's best for the community as a whole and I think having that extra input is helpful for me um so I see a benefit in doing a survey like this um so I'd be in favor of whatever the next steps look like from that perspective what do you think I I would throw the caveat on cuz I guarantee you I I always joke I would have been retired 5 years ago if I had nickel for every elected official that said the survey doesn't indicate what they hear I guarantee you it won't u in that sense you hear from the 10% there's a vast majority of people um and this is this and and I I will say one other thing for our polling um in Minnesotan we don't give them a middle option there is no average there's no three and five there's it's not out of five you don't give them a three you don't out of nine you don't give them a five uh we do scales of if it's a referendum question it strongly supports support oppose strongly opposed if it's a rating it's excellent good only fair because in focus groups we determine you add only it's slightly negative it's a pejorative and then poor uh because Minnesotan just huddle right into the average as quick as possible and you know we truly believe nobody feels that way they might be a little bit positive and a little bit negative um so we do do that in our survey and I noticed that in the car AB I noticed there was no middle no middle ground what was your um response in the carver uh the response rate I think it was um it was less than 6% uh refusal rate 6% refus so 94% 94% that's better4 94% yeah wait a minute 6% yeah 6% out to every res reach out to a statistic subset of residents that fulfills a greater hole correct it is it is a random sample I will just generate based on the count have the computer run out 400 numbers for me no just completely random 100% cuz that's one thing I noticed when I know you guys did Champlin and Champlain in their update their City update they had posted they had done it some of the results and they said they had 400 people replyed I was like well 400 25,000 that was a low response rate but if you only reached out to 500 It Is Well with with a statistically valid survey a 400 sample is plus or minus 5% regardless if we do it in Dayton Champlain henpen County or the state of Minnesota it it doesn't matter it's the it's the size of the sample not the uh percent of the universe it's it's my my business partner was my stats Professor so he could come and give you you know I said for 14 weeks with it um in that sense so um and that's why you know and it becomes a cost benefit it SS on for a vendor to say but my costs are driven by how many questions and how many people um to go to a plus or minus 4% instead of 5% we have to talk to 625 well that increases the cost by 50% sounds odd but I can't justify to people to a client to say you there are instances where it's needed um but for the most part for this sort of survey the margin of a plus or minus 5% is the cost cost effective measure I would add if we do this we should probably do more than the like I think I don't know if we've ever done a quality of life survey in the city but some of the questions that were in there that weren't related to these things were also I think very good for us to know for feedback so I don't know if everyone read question these are just like I said these are just quick question yeah I know but as I read the Carver survey there were a lot of things in there that I was like oh that'd be good to know too so well I think there's you're right there's probably additional opportunity I think a lot of this was driven out of the ideas we had for potential referendum questions and we U Were respectfully kind of shot down by our City attorney on a lot of this so we're looking for another way to get those answers you can't do it here's where I am on this deal and I don't this is just me I mean no offence either Amy I mean what dri this what what created this problem or this issue is the fact that we didn't get in my opinion we didn't get we got three or four different answers instead of just one here do this um and it all comes down to a simple fact do do the residents of Dayton support a $20 million expenditure it's going to cost you this much money for 20 years I personally would put this on a self- address stamped envelope and mail it out to the 3500 homes in the city whatever I get back I give back that's my answer and personally I'd be okay with that rather so you'd be okay based on the expert's opinion to bias against young folks in the community that's what he said mailers bias against Young Folks I don't care about any of that to me that's better than spending 18,000 bucks for whatever you come up with that's my personal old deal that's where I am on this I mean I'm not into doing a quality of life I mean obviously that they're happy with living here they're here I mean you're never going to pacify everybody on every issue that that's just the way it's going to be but our job isn't to pacify everyone our I mean we're here to help the majority of the citizens in the city correct well yeah you're going to ask them are you willing to support this for this much money that's the question you're going to ask them when you read the questions they they weren't really worded like that Scott did you I mean in the that's where that's where we're going that's why we have this in this particular conversation it all comes down to how much money somebody is going to support for what you're getting I see where you're coming from I just feel like we uh we need a way to to know because some of these things would become bonding questions which which which would go to the voters y right so to me it seems a better approach for us to refine what the community actually wants before we put it on a ballot and not say well we cooked up a $50 million idea and actually the residents are thinking more like five and so it gets it's voted down and then we wasted a bunch of time getting ready to do that and and only for it to fail and we could have found that out in advance there it wasn't going to fly so I think it helps us refine what we're asking for based on you know what we think people would approve so different different thought on it I understand where you're at I so when it's a fairly straightforward question like that I should say fairly straightforward but uh this is not you know those are not 30 minute topics um would you merge those in with this quality of life thing or how does this how does this work oh absolutely it could be merged in like like I said I mean survey L will go from 40 questions you know the longest uh you know Back in the Day Richfield did 250 questions I don't recommend that it's not 250 questions about a sports complex you can waste Mr would you like comment about the time frame it takes for 40 questions versus 120 questions because I know some of the questions we talked about when we discussed at staff with your with yourself is you're not going to ask a question like well you're going to ask subsequent questions which are going to count as two for example would you support a $40 million Sports Complex okay yes okay would you support a $45 million complex okay yes would you support a 50 you know those are going to that's three questions versus one question I mean I would I would say uh like the Carver uh example that that's approximately 100 questions that took less than 15 minutes um you know when you look at it you have to keep in mind that not everybody's going to answer all the questions it's going to depend um if there's a section have you had contact with City Hall you say no I'm not going to ask you about your customer service experience so it's not necessarily very few people get asked every every single question you really have to be you win the jackpot as you're going through and answer everyone right to get into the branches um in that sense um as far as as these sorts of things absolutely they can fit fit in because these are policies um and then on top of the quality of life aspect um you know the one thing I always tell clients is there are thousands of interesting questions um are they actionable can you do something with the information um and don't ask questions you don't want answers for um you know a few times you know cities have been put in a box by the survey response that they got because they asked a question the community went one way and then they still went ahead and did it and then the community saying well you asked this for our opinion 70% of people said no and then often times you have turnover at the next election with when that happens um so you know it's just it's just a caveat out there as you're asking the public for their their opinion and people will answer 100 questions yeah they won't ask my first question if you're asking me a 100 questions is how much am I getting paid for this well that's that's why you don't do focus groups anymore because that was to get people to do focus groups is impossible now um but no when you make a convenient people care can I ask a 100 questions about the state legislature the federal government no no uh but for their City and their school district they care they can have an impact and especially on a funding request um they're going to let you know uh yes or no on on where they're at you know the the key is most cities have 10% that support everything 10 to 15% that oppose everything and the key is how the middle wash out that's that's the critical piece to understand because uh in an election everybody has the opportunity to vote Peter in the thing of you know process of where your other client cities have gone and where we're sitting at right now so you know think of Carver as an example there's a number of questions about a Southwest Transit and a a ride share program you know when when you were talking with Carver early on in the process I mean what what was it that Carver was trying to focus on like was it 10 different subjects or was it just Transit uh the first survey they did in 2020 um was they wanted because of all the growth to understand where all the new residents were at uh the new residents weren't represented the council had all lived in the city for 10 years or more um and they didn't under they wanted to make sure that they were keeping in touch with those new residents because those new residents come with different expectations um you know the settlers versus the newbies in that sense um so it was General it had some specific policy questions um this time time around in Carver they kept kind of the core the quality of life so you can look because that's that's the other thing if you do surveys over time you can see how opinions vary um and so they can look and see okay how do people feel about I mean there's a huge shift in the state of Minnesota on property taxes property tax hostility exploded last year um so now they have the comparison to where they were in 20 to 2024 and they can see how that impact of property tax hostility has impacted not only how people feel about city services but the general value of the services they're getting um but then on this one they switched some of the topics out um and we included they had the 25 uh M hour speed limit question in there uh the questions like you mentioned on Southwest Transit um there's was more they're looking kind of more Global not specific for Park Bond but investment city funding for Street repair uh those sorts of things so what's the this is a new business do we need to vote on something or is this what would be the next steps for us to do approve this look at it do you want us to provide your questions topics um if you if you if you approve the survey then I would typically I start working with staff uh on the draft um more than happy then I always make sure the the staff is getting information from the Council on topics that you would like to to see explored um and then uh typically we go back and forth on a revised draft um and then at some point the council kind of weighs in on the draft overall are we missing things um things that uh shouldn't be on there those sorts of things um it's kind of the typical process it typically takes the drafting I I make a joke it could take 48 days or 48 Hours uh typically it's about four weeks when do you start charging when you start working on the draft or when you start making phone calls we sign the contract you yeah I get paid when you sign the contract I just do first half uh when we have a survey finalized because I need to know the number of questions uh so there's no charge until the survey is is approved and then the second half is due after I come out present with the final you a motion um yep okay so I'll motion that we move forward with creating a draft uh survey to send out to Residents to make sure that we're inclusive of all people I will second that um can you restate that sure I'll move that we move forward with creating a draft of questions with the Morris letherman company survey okay that add something different but okay and I'll still manage my my second on that okay any more discussion any in terms of pricing when do we know that once the size of the survey is determined or the number of calls what's the number of questions it would you know you know the the price I think the price in there is for 60 Questions uh roughly and like and like the city manager mentioned it might be 70 you know if I go if you say I want to do look at all city services if my phoners go through a list of ask how do you rate police fire Street repair and maintenance okay that takes 5 seconds if I'm asking a park Bond referendum question that has an introductory paragraph and then one question that counts so it's somewhere between 60 to 80 questions when I count it up um is that 18,000 if you go alonger if you want to have a more expansive quality of life survey look at communications uh those sorts of things but I can ballpark it when I do the initial draft so you know what you're looking at so if you want to make cuts um from that or additions uh you'll have an idea and what ultimately is is the deliverable I are we getting the raw data that you collected or no something that is gone some undergone some analysis yeah on once the surveys are completed we code a date enter them um into the into our system and then you'll get the survey like you you saw the Carver survey with all the percents um I'll do a PowerPoint and then I come out and present and I talk about you know it's interesting to know 50% F this way um but with the database that I have I can tell you what it means um in comparison to the metro area uh to exurban communities like yourself uh and put it in the context and then we write a final report where we look at statistically that the demographic section that's for two purposes not only to validate the sample against the census but then also that we can look at differences how do households with seniors feel versus households with children how do homeowners feel versus renters so then we'll do that in a write up report for you also so these backend questions more of the validation um is that what your so one is what's your age um guess and you already know that yeah okay yeah are you you think you already know that yeah I on that one we just ask him to make sure that that we do yeah that we don't you know the the critical piece on that one and I don't think that I don't think Carver asked the question question on the financially stressed situation in the household um though that factor is the number one issue uh with referendums that failed last year for school districts is the macroeconomic situation of households um it's as it's as bad as it's been since the recession of 2008 2009 okay any more discussion I have a question so I do believe that we need more direction as far as the topics go I'll get that okay yeah to C we kind of approving is the process right yeah correct yep you guys are approving the process for us to start working with Mr lman and the processing question I'll reach up for topics I get to the council you guys send me them back I'll give them to Mr letherman he'll provide some fault questions and generate what he does because he provides some non-biased questions that aren't geared towards one or the other and then provide a back you you hired me to write neutral worded questions I I always joke I I can write a question to elicit whatever answer you want you certainly can doesn't do anybody any good right yeah agreed any more discussion okay we've got a motion a second all those in favor say I I right all those opposed say no no passes 4 to one okay thank you super thank you thank you sir thank you all right where we get to item P discussion of fees for operation zero event at Magnus veterans Foundation um so we have the um operation zero reach out that they are hosting an event at um the Magnus veterans Foundation they are nonprofit trying to raise money um it's towards zero deaths for for um veteran suicide and um they had just asked if fees could be waved as they're nonprofit and so is the um veterans foundation so a couple years ago May been like five we had talked about fees and nonprofits um we we clearly didn't come up with a policy right because otherwise we could apply that here um so we do have um reduced fees for like Activity Center rentals um I guess we don't I mean that would have been improved like in the fee schedule yeah um I we've not had anything in place for anything else and this is specifically for the large event feed yeah so large event fireworks um permit and then um police services so they' like to have all three so like they'd like to have large assembly permits which I know we've done in the past and we don't have a policy for it but we basically a precedent that we've allowed large assemblies to be wave for nonprofits however we have never had a nonprofit ask us for our fireworks permit to be waved and our all Police Services to be waved as well so well I think we did a few years back maybe say nonprofit or for some I don't even think it was necessarily land nonprofit you might remember this but it was for basically any public event sure I believe we we just said you you get our services I think it was nonprofit specific Well because most nonprofits were the ones running the public event so this one has never operated in the city of Dayton so we just want to make sure that we're on the same page looking for we do with those things with um bun buns we don't charge for that right we do not no but they don't have a fireworks permit either no I know that but I me for they pull they P large assembly and they PID for the per did they pay yep it got reduced to $60 I believe did Hunter end up do our service commun service officer did he end up doing some traffic for the Buns production at 1.2 like a large weekend that they had or something yeah we have traffic control there every night so the first two years they had paid for the service and then um because of the Heritage day um after that discussion it was decided that they would no longer have to pay for the police services yeah that's what I and that's what I remember is so really kind of landed at our two existing um I think at the time it was discussed that it didn't change the fee schedule and we would continue with the fee because um you don't know what organizations are going to come in with what event you're talking about the large okay yep y so it was to ask at the time we had something come up so we could have five profit organizations come in and want to do five different events I don't know if we have the capacity to approve all of them um you mean if they're coinciding on the same day weekend it's the ability to get staff to get overtime or want to work over time no I get all that if they want if we say for example yeah provide a any nonprofit can come in here anytime and apply for it a large assembly and we're just going to provide services I don't know that we realistically can offer that provide that which is why it's been a one off basis or ones have already been existing that do it every single year annually it just seems odd to have to do it individually but you're just saying because you never know who's going to show it correct yeah we're gets out we could have 100 all of a sudden nonprofits want to rent land and do something over the weekend that becomes every weekend coming in I'm just kidding right so again this one is a new one that has not have been in Dayton before so we figured we bring it to council to get their direction for C well not something they won't do in the the future just they're joining where are they at and getting a uh Event Center permit we're working with them currently to bring it in and all talking yeah we we're working with them to get it okay because if they had that they wouldn't need the large assembly per which means they would by de facto not need to pay the $60 correct no they pay a lot more that it's a one time fee one time yeah yep so then they would have just came before asking to wait for the fireworks and the the firor am I think it's $100 does that include firefighter time to be there or no mayor memb of council um it's $100 uh for the permit but that does not include staff time so I do need to have staff there in order to like we did for the Friday night event that we had last year so they would they would look for fire Services as well to be waved as well Fe for so between the fire and the police what's the cost time labor because this is money the city is essentially donating one how we look at one the other when we start doing this for nonprofit it's money that we are donating in Li of cash we are donating money to them and the form of services uh I haven't seen the this large assembly permit yet so I don't know how many hours we're required to be there but if it's a 8 Hour um event that we have to have two cops there and maybe a CSO for traffic um I'm doing the quick Mathew on think every couple years may do this probably talking in 1,500 bucks easy $2,500 in fees is that just for please yep it's just for please and then you add your hour to four three four firefighters yeah I would say based on uh the area that they want to launch the fireworks are probably talking four to six staff for two hours in that capacity so I'll say $250 just round numbers I guess and then $100 on top that for the permit Mr Mayor three grand Mr Mayor if I could um I just wanted to point out that as council member TR mentioned this is a donation of of city services and there's there's some fairly strict rules around um public purpose expenditures even when it's in kind donations and so I just would want to caution about um opening the floodgates on something like this I'd be happy to provide more information about the what can and can't qualify as as public purpose and and supporting community events and that sort of that sort of thing so what differentiates this so let's say Magnus has an event and they request some police officers versus um some some event happening at a at another Resident I mean they we end up providing Police Services there also it's I mean to me you talk about funds that what you say I'm talking about any other resident um they can't fireworks huh no I guess what I'm getting at is is to me um Magnus is um they're requesting uh the to have the city help them right and a resident May request the police to come over and talk to about X I guess what I'm wondering is is um you you seem to think that there's kind of a special funding mechanism or um something unique about how we would donate that time but we're always donating time to Residents that's correct but in in situations like this where you're waving fees and you're providing sta for um for events and you know putting the the city's employees at risk and and all that sort of thing you know the state auditor um has has for lack of a better word dinged some cities for improper use of of public funds yeah I hate what you're saying on that so I just I just want I just I'm expressing caution where they would hire some of their like local security firm or something like that to run traffic of some sort like they' contract that themselves right you or they would pay you know the the police officer's hourly rate sure um or you know just those sorts of things where where you're not providing it free of charge yeah the not a city activity correct right I get that I mean I understand that yeah well that that kind of makes the point that we we should develop a policy I deal so that we're consistent and not if you do it for one you got to do it for then bun is all of a sudden got to pay for a police time I mean if you do it for one you got to do it for everybody well I think we need to know that that that's wrong before we would change our approach on that but it doesn't seem like it is it's no different than even riverfish for that matter I'm not against it I was just asking the question and making it clear what we're actually donating so I just want to be clear takes out of context what I said and when this came up the last time um it same issues it's it's we went through the and I think it was specifically for bu so many hours blah blah blah the issue is is that when we if we were to charge for these things the only group that could do public events would be the city because the city doesn't pay for police they're already there um this would kill events that's and that that I think that that's the issue um you know a lot of these these events are very low profit I mean this thing I don't know what they make off of it but um I believe in a lot of these ad value I would say also at Valu the community you look at buns as bringing Arts to a rural community this is doing a lot of great work for a lot of great people as well so I'm not again I'm not arguing I think we're on the same page I'm just asking the question yep yep and like I said it comes up periodically and uh I'm also worried too that we're consistent that's my other piece is we either need to have a polic and place of how we approach this to make sure it's okay legally but also that we're doing it consistently and we aren't then just picking and choosing our favorite Charities up here that are doing work in the community then we want to be part of that makes so there's no bias and uh reward it's given yeah is there a way to save the the idea of getting five or 10 or 20 of these all of a sudden popping up by saying that whoever's putting on this event has to be a a Dayton community so facility we do approv the permits right the large large the council approves the large assembly permits and we can deny them arbitrarily you can't deny anything arbitrarily or I would advise you against doing that um but it's in your discretion to approve or deny um permit applications based on the factors that are there in the application and if we we look at it and say gez there's there's two other big events here um then we would have some discretion and it would be a first come first Ser kind of a thing it could be okay yes um I mean and and it's not it it I don't mean to tell you don't do it or go ahead and do it I'm just offering the the the caution about you know the state auditor looking at at your expenditures and things like this um there are certain parameters where it's perfectly fine for a city to contribute to to community events and things like that you just want to make sure as council member TR mentioned that that it's applied equally um and and that and there are certain factors that that you that come into play as to public benefit and things like that when you talk about public purpose exp I think and the other thing that always comes up it hasn't so far but is the state statute on on that correct um which is once again clear as mud um well as it's been interpreted by the courts you know since the 60s isn't Champlin isn't it shed Fest there that's there property on I mean yeah I guess for what it's worth I would I would risk I guess to say approving this this time but I think it deserves its deeper discussion as far as like what our policy would look like going moving forward with we yeah we put more time on this in the future State well yeah I mean even I don't know um it seems like as part of this we do need to have a policy um City staff can look at it and work with to draft up a policy and bring it back to council and I don't know how we you know protect against cuz there could be outside um entities coming in to do a legitimate um large event I don't know what that example would be but I could see that and again to me it's yeah so operation zero is not a Magness veterans Foundation this is an exact example this is an exact example of that that operation zero is a separate nonprofit that is using Magnus feder facility because they have a large space space piece of land that they're able to do they're probably told the city pays for all the stuff so you can save some money but they did call and ask what the fees were and they asked if there was any way for them to be waved and I said I didn't have authority I would have to ask counil again it's to me it's with the the the the lack of of large events in this city it seems like we should be really um helping those groups out M but yeah I think the policy I think we need a policy I don't think we should be I'm not worried about 25 events coming in and over overwhelming us we haven't had 25 in 25 years but I mean it's potential is there and I think we have that discretion if you know this is the fourth one on the on the table for that weekend I think we we we should or at least and in our policy you know say that we have you know we have limited resources and we will only approve up to you know Paul's got nine guys okay you can't have all of them over at the event whatever it is or at the four events um you know I think we need to have that attitude to use you know that that we don't have the resources to support something even if it is legitimate um just because of the number that are occurring I think that's a a problem we'd like to have but it's not the problem we have today that's true um well do we give some guidance for the policy and then deal with this thing when is the event August 10th you can table it wait you can a policy along with this one you can accept it and prove it as it states with all three of them and then come back with the policy you can deny it and say you know a policy come back with a policy you can do any one of combined should table it um and the reason being it it seems like there should be not necessarily rocket science to come up with a policy for these things shouldn't be too bad no we'll put our we'll see that in six six months I'm okay with I'm just kidding you're okay with table in it okay I'm okay to the question I have for Amy when we look at developing the policy does it make sense to put a um to give us an out to deny things to put in there not just a resource but a annual Financial cap that we're willing to put that we allowed to do that to say the city will do this until x amount of time is re x amount of time resources Don because what I don't want have happen is a bunch of will come in in the future I'm trying to Future prove this so 10 years from now yeah and maybe every year we get to a lot what that dollar month is as part of our budget I don't know but I think a it should be budgeted for so if we're going to do this we should have a number in our head anyways that we should be looking at and B when the funds run out the funds run out so that's that's why I'm asking the question because I don't want us to get over budget but I mean last year we we dickered over $220,000 in the budget we all know we did these can add up it only takes less than 10 of these in a given year to do it we know two that are for sure going to happen but this uh organization runs m multiple of them a year or has in the past so I don't know I think we should put a cap on it and we can properly budget for it as well that if we're allowed to do that legally that would be my other piece to think maybe I'm wondering if it could be kind of partitioned out in the activity fund um sure somehow but something to think about when we're writing the I think definely so all motion that we since we have the time that we table this how long Amy do you think you'll or Amy and St you think we'll need to get up policy in front of the council I could have a draft ready next week do it mean so let's go let's shoot for the either we can shoot for the 11th depending on I don't know Amy's not going to be at the 11th meeting so we can do the 25th meeting Amy will be at that one and I think that's but if you guys come up with something that's you know basic half a paragraph um we're not going to need I think the 11th is fine person we don't PES I I'll motion that we table this until the next meeting okay me a second I'll second okay CL in favor say I I I opposed say no tabling carries 5 to zero and we are on to well we're half hour late on the item c um sorry it's working where am I just clicking on this uh click arrows whatever you do oh don't long sorry good evening mayor and members of council um the action before you is a request uh for me as fire chief to designate the uh P 311 120- 2213 0010 as land used for future fire station and training facility is there another slideer click the button sorry okay over rview of the site um this geographic location is at the corner of Dayton Parkway in County Road 81 um this is currently um designated a tax for forfeiture property by henen County originally um purposed for I believe for a parking ride um currently um the property is currently vacant um obviously um and we're looking for uh Council to give us Direction on if you believe that this would be a good location for Fire Station 3 and uh future uh training facility for the fire department so we're looking for uh direction for datton staff to fulfill paperwork tpin County to repurpose land to reutilize fortif fire station and Training Facility um basically approve or deny that request how many usable acres are there there six and a half there's about six six and half and half something uh question pertaining to the Eda meeting coming up in June I believe this topic is on there for Eda to put this property on the market yeah so mayor members of the council the Eda um will be coming before you depending on what happens with this item which is why it's in subsequential order um to be able to figure out if they'd like to be able to take it under their control and process the land so again the reason why it's in sequential order is because we need clear and direction from Council of what you'd like to do with it the direction from staff is we need that direction so we need to approve it as a future fire station training facility if that's not the case then we need to deny this request and then at the next meeting there will be then if it's denied um the Eda will come in front of you U which was discussed at the last Eda meeting um and the Eda board chair will be here to discuss what their proposal is for the piece of property so okay which is why again it's in sequential order because staff needs clear direction of what to do with this property this has been discussed since I became City administrator that it's been sitting there and there's been nothing going on at the property um it's just vacant land and I don't believe anyone on this Council has said that they'd like to keep it as a parking ride but that is also an option if that's what the C would like to do God no this is kitty corner we just approved theck stop correct this is correct y Acres on that property that are usable currently in the is 6 and2 it might be a little less with buffers and whatever else but okay discussion more discussion otherwise I'm going to get after it that in the go ahead you say oh well just a couple of quick comments I mean I've said this a couple at a couple of the work sessions I don't love that that location for this use that doesn't mean I'm against us moving much more quickly than we have been to find a location for the fire station and potential um training facility um but I also want to make sure that these are two separate questions if we are if we were to say no to this um use for that property I think we still have to have the discussion about is the is the Eda the right answer totally separate which is why it's done on the same meeting okay that's that's correct that's just the point I want to make it's two two different questions to me there's yeah three different questions you can do a b c d e f g whatever you want to do but that's why there are two separate questions on two separate nights not to confuse them together so that we have clear direction thank you very much I I I I think part of the problem is um you know if we were to what I would cons uh consider to have exhausted all answers I might be okay with this but I don't think we've done that sure and that's why I'm hesitant to say no we shouldn't use this but if we're pressed to make it a a decision I think today I'd be no because um well for reasons we stated kind of over and over again what additional information do you think is that you're missing I'm just curious um other property options so we heard from the gentleman today this area is not good for restaurants it's going to pull in more warehouses and like things given the area that's why I asked him the question we had an expert sitting here today so I figured I'd ask him the question yep so I guess I we went down this route with the like with the truck stop here four years later so we did I I don't disagree I think I'd love to see a restaurant or something there something that would draw people in that may even be additive to the the truck stop I think there's options there I just don't know if we're going to see that come to fruition in a in a near timely manner and my other concern is we've known we need to land since 2019 we sit here in 2024 half a decade later we still have a different property and the ones that we have tried to purchase have my understanding is really jacked up the price once it as the city was involved and and we don't even have the money set aside I would say these days to cover the cost of the land we're going to have to buy in order to put this number three on we don't know that though you think we're going to get land for half a million dollars yep do you know somebody Scott I don't think we're going to get we haven't tried we have not put 10 minutes worth of effort into this whole process I so my opinion is I struggle to believe that for half a million dollars we're going to find land which what we have set aside now we're going to find land in this area that can provide what we need even if we don't do the training facility just the firehouse and that's where I struggle is not that I think that oh this is the best place for this because I think there's probably other places that are better but when I look at the financial economics of it I have a hard time believing that we're going to have the money to buy the land I'm going to say this year to be able to have land set aside to do it where we have an opportunity now to have the land that we need for this at 3 $100 cost what's the cost bigest application less than $1,000 right and so I I'm taking more of a financial look at this when I look at this versus um the alternative so that's that's my true sense here's a financial look at this and it for me it's extreme in black and white this has a and we all know what the I'm not going to say what the pral value is because I don't want numbers publicly we all know what that value is supposedly nobody has made made the call to see if that number can be changed if just say that we're able to buy it for less than that her Eda is and we already know there's a parcel out there for in the million dollar area is what they're supposedly asking I don't know why I mean I I that's what we were told toight you're talking about flipping a prop profit on this property that's what you're getting to yeah yeah I don't I my understanding is and Amy here so she can correct me if I'm wrong but we have to hold the property for so long before we can flip it for a profit we can't just buy it tomorrow and then flip that's not true no I'm sorry I'm sorry to interrupt mayor council members you don't have to hold it for a specific amount of time before you can sell it for a profit um the obligation that the city would have if you were to acquire the the parcel for just for fair market value would be that you would sell it for far for fair market value and if that changes in the interim once you acquire it from the county for fair market value um then fair market value is what you know willing buyer willing seller um there there is some guidance from the Department of Revenue um about flipping you know that that generally um they don't the the Department of Revenue you know frowns upon you know a public entity acquiring a tax forfeited parcel um and then just turning around and selling it for for profit um but honestly when it comes to the sale of the property it's up to the county whether they are willing to sell it to the city for the fair market value as they determine it the statute specifically says that the county determines that fair market value they can get an appraisal they don't have to get an appraisal they can you know use their own internal staff um in the assessing Department to say we think it's worth X um but there's no hard and fast rule about you have to hold it for a specific amount of time before you could resell it do we have the funds to straight off purchase the property depends on what depends on where you take it yeah it depends on price and who's paying for it and kind of a side question um so this property is sitting in the county hands and let's say we we we um buy it off of them um for any price they've just made a significant yeah profit um because they acquired it for whatever the tax lean was now uh I know there's been you know court case that's saying that they may have to return some of that money um I I I guess I'm I'm not sure where the Count's at now with with their analysis of that decision but it it does seem to me kind of odd that they wouldn't want to negotiate a price which is you know for public if we if we were to use it for public use the Count's going to get nothing nothing in fact they will have a a loss on it because of the the lean um it seems odd to me they wouldn't want to negotiate something and we we've just never attempted that though sure um I got an idea if we use it for public use we're just it's a $300 application designating the the tax we're not having to purchase it correct corre that's correct okay yeah yeah it's it costs us effectively zero other than the loss we was commercial property we just put a government building on but um yeah we don't it's it's doesn't cost us uh much and the county gets nothing so I mean I'm not going to cry tears for the county but it they're making nothing on it and so it just seems to me that if there's negotiation they have some incentive for what it's worth I guess if the if the temperature in the room is to not utilize this as a as a public infrastructure for the fire station or training facility I guess I would like to put it in there that you know I want to purchase agreement on another piece of property before this one sells then in order for the fire department to kind of lock something down keep us moving forward in that direction otherwise just we'll just sell this property and I feel like we'll just retrospectively just kick the can down the road again so I'd like to hold us a little bit accountable that you know in lie of selling this that we've found something else well how about how about this is how about if we just make the attempt to turn this to Eda and see if they can do something with it give them I mean there's no series we don't have to have fire station property in the next 3 months yeah I I so we're not talking about turning over the Eda today no no no I mean but you keep saying that's just so you know that's not we're talking about just the city meaning the council buying it today great what we're talking about is whether or not to put the fire station thank you yeah and I agree I think the other one warrants more discussion on what is the right answer if we're not putting a fire station on it mayor I'm make a motion that we say no and deny this I'm going to Second it and again I'm going to say that I want us to put real real effort into finding finding a location for that third fire station I just don't like this one and I've been consistent with that opinion okay we get a motion a second any more discussion all those in favor say I I I all those opposed say no no no okay three to two thank you that was the same direction that you had about four months ago uh not necessarily so that's why I wanted it in clear writing so that we were good versus discussion okay I think the issue still though is is if we put forth I mean a significant amount of effort and we don't find anything we we may still look at this and say yeah that's why it's it's easy to get clear Direction and then we can move to the next thing and then I can we can stuff can keep moving on things so okay item R approval for purchase of a fire ladder truck get Mayor members of council NOP oops wrong one oh boy escap I did hit escape on the there you go try that again uh good evening mayor members of council um this evening you had an opportunity um around 4:30 4:45 to see a Delano fire truck as an example of what the fire department would like to purchase um today before you their action item is to approve the purchase of a aerial ladder truck in the amount of 2,497 779 from McQueen emergency um we had discussion as relates to that earlier um on reason for the purchase as it relates to either improving our so rating one thing that I did mention earlier um I'll confirm here again today is that the purchase of this piece of equipment as we look to the Future for Station 3 and its location and whatnot this would fundamentally round out large significant purchases as it relates to apparatus um in prepping for that station uh the reason to bring before you today um originally in the CIP budget I have $3.6 million for that purchase in 2028 this vehicle um if it agreed upon to be purchased today would be a contract mqueen for about $1.1 million less than what's currently in the CIP roughly um we're seeing a an increase of about $200,000 compounded um annually every quarter they're seeing about a 5% 5 to 8% increase quarterly so roughly $50,000 thereabouts um over that period of time when we originally looked at purchasing on that vehicle um in 2028 um do want to make sure mayor memb C that we know that we're going to if this is approved we will look to add the language that was mentioned during the work session which is the if we cancel this purchase we get charged Z we're not out anything from doing that process yeah is this this is not a quint right is not a quint so I don't know I can explain what that is if uh yeah out of curiosity so Quint is combining a straight stick ladder with no bucket uh to an engine so basically if we have engine 21 that we have out here we stick a straight stick ladder on the top of it um that is not um it will get us to elevated uh surfaces if you will um however um from a safety perspective from for me as far as also is affecting the rescue of residents it doesn't have a bucket on the end if yeah had want a bucket hanging on the end of a ladder you can't use Marty's not it's not NFP approved that I know he doesn't like to share but we're happy to use anything that Marty SS our way I mean the difference in those two rigs was only like 300,000 bucks so it's not that big a I was just kind of wondering why it sounded like at least what I've seen in this this the study um that they were recommending a quint and that's why I was wondering yeah and I and I've built a into my career when I was in Wilmer um we I built a quint we had a 75t stick ladder on top of that um straight stick ladder um it gave ability more less than anything as an elevated master stream um but imagine even 75 ft in the air sticking a firefighter up there doing a leg lock and doing what they need to do no you're not interested denn I watch guy cut the top of a tree off that going to die and that tree was going like this not me yeah hence that that's my recommendation of uh the the full area here's one concern that I have with this whole deal and I'm we're going to need this at some point I don't disagree with that at all my personal opinion is we are still about 10 years away from station three that's my personal opinion sure um and with this vehicle Zach did answer my question that we do have someplace to put it cuz apparently it'll fit in this building yep oh I asked the same question earlier yes it will my question too it it will fit in the the other thing that I haven't T you got to hold the door up or something no soup can it's we have the the ability here the thing that I didn't bring up I'll bring up briefly we can talk about another time is U utility 21 that we have in the station currently that is not included in uh CIP it's never been included in the CIP replacement um so I'm we're actually looking at taking that piece of equipment and combining it with engine 21 and not renewing and not getting another one of those so the idea is that um if we did have a station three um by that time when it did come we do have the ability to store it at either station would fit at either one yeah so mayor members of Council in the fire study that utility 21 is noted as heavy rescue yeah so if you saw heavy rescue listed in there it said one now and say zero in the future yep that is what that is what Chief's Rec is referencing when he says that consolidate Vehicles very similar to what we did with the tanker engine um do the same thing here we would take that equipment it's actually preferred because when we respond to an extrication we do need a water source so right now we're taking two vehicles and really only need one so here's where I'm going with that whole deal is in my opinion this is my opinion I guess uh we need to be I personally if the Dayton residents support this whole thing the ladder truck the fire station if they're willing I mean this ladder truck alone for the next four or five years it's going to cost every household 175 bucks a year and for the next four or five years that's just what it's going to be then all of a sudden wait AE so the math that's acted for me last week every $100,000 of tax cost the average homeowner about $2 a month so you're talking 2 * 25 so million and figure out how much I know exct the actual math though based on our actual taxes not just residential but residential commercial and Industrial so we're sharing good information what Zach to means every $100,000 is $2 a month to the average home so that would mean 25 time 25 * 2 is 50 bucks so if we had to how long are you stretching that out that's just built in the tax rate yeah so what yeah cic is taking the same kind of information but $25 is equal to $100,000 per year so if you want to do $500,000 per year cuz we're going to do it for the next 5 years which is what you're mentioning 25 * 5 is 125 Times by five is that would be $125 per annually annually for the next five years for us to pay for that to pay for that if you pay off in five years correct if you paid it off in five years that's correct yeah you would I mean so you you do a one time increase of I'm going to say 500 Grand which would be on the average household 2 $125 per year and then you just keep that for the next 5 years and then at the end of the 5 years you just get rid of that right right portion of the so then all of a sudden 5 Years From then meaning 2029 2030 we're going to come back to these residents and say now I need another $400 a year annually to build fire station you're assuming everything's paid off in 5 years though no no that a fire station you're not going to pay a $20 million fire station years that 20 years oh yeah that's that's 20 and the reason why plan on doing a lot of facilities at the same time to it's more than just the fire station fire station and City Hall City Hall and a public works expansion and possibly something in LC Stevens for an event center that we haven't discussed and talked about with details and they said those things are all on the plan but they're all the same year to do a large facilities Bond so that we get the best bank for a buck with dollars and amounts and that makes yeah that makes sense it's just a matter of you know is that is that what people is that what people want I what people want yep and and again maybe that gets back to uh our letherman survey so that would be I would agree um but to me that's where we need to be talking to some of these people the residents got to know what we're talking about what do you what do you what are you suggesting then a mailer how how long is this pricing good this pricing would be probably good for about another 3 weeks Day Sale well and that's why I said it roughly every quarter we're talking $50,000 increase so yeah when you think about over the next four years it's 200,000 and then it's going to be 20 15,000 and then 230,000 where we end up very close to where if we get a change in the cancellation language there's no downside of us approving this now because when it comes to come du in four years then the decisions really has to be made then but if we don't order it now the price will be more when and we won't have it when it's scheduled to be delivered so we push staff often to be like hey this pop this items on the CIP why didn't you order it two years ago when we need it this year said need it this year in this case we've done that and we have an out as long as we don't go buy it from a competitor of theirs we have an out and so I I don't see a downside to this approving this when you have to pay for the chassis and when was that we don't nothing until four years until then we lose the 200 yeah so you lose the discount for pay out paying it early I I we will need one and it's just a matter of of when and I I I'm not saying we need it today but I think we will need it in the proximately amount time take to build it now it's looked in like three years I think 42 is the earliest 48 is what is expected yeah four four years so it's four years which is why it's coming to you in front of you today if we expected it to be a 36-month Bui we would to come to you next year yeah um based on the fact that CIP is out I think we all kind of knew this is coming it's just uh the 2.5 is an ouch but it's also lower than we budgeted in the CIP which is good news too well yeah but that's not till for four more years I mean in the might be that price in 28 it might but we're going to get this price CU we lock in early yeah yeah so if we lock in today we will pay this price in 2020 to come delivery if we do not then it will be whatever price until we place the order so this is what this has been a difference we've had in the shift of Co is that we've had to order things way before we actually need them because otherwise we don't see them which is example is even Mar's trucks we ordered those in1 and we saw them in we're starting to see them come in yeah we saw them in 24 so I mean those are trucks not I do however see no benefit to paying paying for this early I would I would agree with that given the current interest rates and what over the next cost more M compound I I would agree that it's it's not if there's a benefit assuming we had the money today which we don't if we had the money today or interested on it I don't I didn't St the math but my guess is the benefit is going to be very almost a wash I I will guess it's going to be almost to wash one way or the other without sitting on do the math just quick in my head yes so based on that I I move this forward I'll motion that we approve the purchase of this vehicle with the changed cancellation language y that allows it so they can't charge us a fee if we just cancel but they can still charge us the fee if we buy from some somebody else yep so that's the motion I'll make based upon what I I think is the right long-term choice and we we're out nothing and we're just locking the lower price you're going to pay four years any yeah there's staff is not recommending you pay early just want to make sure you know we are not we were I would we would come to us staff and say we recommend you paying early we not kind rounds out everything we have this is everything this this kind of completes this would this would complete that because we be able to shift things around as I indicated the other thing is too is is just as a reminder if we're two years in and something change financially for us we have the ability to thenay if you wanted to pay that 2.5 million then then you'd still get a discounted rate it just be yeah roughly 4% roughly per year if we P early so right now we're getting five something right yeah right now we're earning 5.25 reason to do it yeah you got it all right how me a motion I need a second I'll second don't anything really I wanted let Travis do it he would have done it I totally would have I would have choked him a little bit to get it going a little would have reached I seen them fidgeting so I figur I saw him fidgeting through you okay we got a a motion in a second um any more discussion all right all those in favor say I I'm going to say I because uh I won't be here when you got to pay for it all right I'll take that as an eye then five to zero all right you got a letter truck that's well four years four years years you got it okay so we still have item s item T and it is pushing so we will look for your direction mayor of what you'd like to do for S&T let's just push through we're already here push oh keep going and I got to be up early tomorrow i' rather just keep but 5 minutes to get through both of these let's go to ask ordinance updating tobacco cannabis use and public space yep uh mayor CLE these are items that came for from in front of you in November of 2023 we are out bringing them back based on the fact that it fell off staff's radar um and we need to look for approval we did adjust an amend based on Direction at the November meeting and provided that in front of you today so I'm going to make a motion that we approve it I'll second it but I have a couple of questions okay discussion go ahead all right um I had to get to my right pages okay 212 is okay there's a typo in here that I just can't live with thank God you can spell cuz I can't um on page 215 there is okay I'm sorry I'm stumbling around here a little bit in on 215 item number two um I'm not sure what that's saying it says manufacturer or delivery is unlawful for any person to intentionally manufa manufacture paraphernalia the end for delivery for delivery sorry I missed that the end I don't know what that means mayor members of the council that change in the the way that this is written is the underlying language is new and the stricken language is is what we're removing what would be removed from the current uh code Provisions um it this language mirrors what is now in the state statute related to to the changes that they made to um drug paraphernalia in the 2023 legislative session so why are we for what is the for delivery part I don't that's where I get lost so they can make it for themselves but they can't deliver it to others is that the essentially just of it I think that's yeah you're you're yeah then you're really naughty yeah cuz you manfacturing it and delivering it I I just did so is this kind of an echo of a state statute it is yes so why are we why is it in our code I mean that may seem silly but it's not silly um it we could strike it all together or we could change it I mean so I mean the the changes that we made to the ordinance and chief chime in here if you if you want to um the changes that we made to the to the ordinance um were to con make it conform to the state statute more um there's no requirement that you have an ordinance yeah if it's if if you know if law enforcement can rely on the state statute for for enforcement now was that was kind of my question rather than strike it we amend it once you have kind of a a mirror of State Statute and local statute now they got to play this game of constantly keeping them up to date or you're in Conflict um and I don't know maybe Chief you can chime in does it matter whether something's in a local ordinance or state statute to you guys uh it depends on prosecution of it so we might not be able to charge under State Statute um but with a minor penalty but under ordinance we could so in some situations it could help correct okay because the the state ordinance is taking a lot of authority away from law enforcement as far as paraphernalia in general um they're taking Hyper dermic needles um to where people can have possession of them now yeah um so a lot of drug paraphernalia is going out the window so it's if you have it in ordinance it still gives us an Avenue to charge if we needed to oh see you're talking about um a super set of ordinances compared to the state statute correct yeah no I get that I I just I was talking about stuff that Mimi State Statute um okay more questions did you get your anwers clear as mud well it sounds like if it makes sense to somebody then I'm going to be fine with it because it's not going to apply to me sounds good just saying you're not going to be involved I'm not going to be delivering okay okay uh um so I guess um we've got a motion in a second do we have any more discussion all those in favor say I I I all those opposed say no motion carries 5 to zero and we are on to item t Okay um mayor members of Council in front of you you have the approval of the Ord that was discussed at the last meeting 20247 incompatibility of offices for city council and part-time employees we are looking for direction from City step to amend The Code by adding the new section into our current city code with the incom incompatibility of offices for city council and parttime employees um approve or deny that direction and request I will stand for any questions well I I think given that I kind of initiated this um sorry and then also I want to make sure that everyone knows on the on the staff report it was noted that there was all the options were given there wasn't clear Direction there was back and forth at the last council meeting um Amy um Schmidt and I worked together try to figure out what's the best options to write in the um ordinance not trying to single anybody out or trying to single any certain situation out just giving all the options this can easily be amended and adjusted based on whatever you'd like to have in the ordinance and then can be approved or denied depending on what you decide but again clear Direction wasn't given at the last meeting and apologize if you did give it I didn't understand it so so one question I had is around um timing it could be effective now or it could be effective next year or something and I guess it wasn't clear to me on what the implications of were were of the timing of adoption um mayor members of the council the the way that the the ordinance is currently drafted um it would take effect upon publication um of the ordinance unless you direct it otherwise you could um say that it would be effective after the first of the year you know January 1st 2025 um and the impact of that would be um that any um council member who would be subject to the the new regulation um it wouldn't affect their ability to to file and run for office again in 2024 that was just for part-time employees that did not cover anybody else correct um there's a state statute that specifically prohibits a full-time employee from serving on the council I was referring to the nonprofit board members that wasn't that wasn't in there to to allow them to continue to run I'm sorry can you clarify your question that could be struck ifu that should be struck out now it shouldn't be in there now I I at this point so yeah that was item e on the I believe what you're referencing mayor um is that in addition it says that yeah that no El official serve on a governing body of a nonprofit or Civic organization TI the city I think at this point which can be struck like I said it's given that I initiated this I'm kind of uh um I I think that the the The Angst that it's causing I think the the time it's taking I'm willing to to either table it for a long time or just drop it um I think if if we want to look at this maybe after January 1 is something that we should Target and mayor if I could interrupt one more time if you look at at uh F of this of the draft ordinance it specifically says that it wouldn't apply to any person who is currently serving on the council um if they are reelected in a consecutive term so um any member who is who would be elected this fall um wouldn't be subject to this until they yeah it would only apply to somebody else um running for running for office it wouldn't affect the current council members so given the mayor's comments I'll a motion that we deny this I want another comment on yeah oh okay okay here's where I am on this deal I need a second I'll second okay go ahead here's where I am on this deal clearly the timing is way off I mean this was this was brought up probably 6 months ago and should have been handled a long time ago um and this new draft pretty much covers it it it takes you out of the equation well only for a certain period of time but I think it goes if you get reelected for the next 10 years you're still there right but the language I think I'm looking Beyond Myself here on at this point like there's there's a I know 30 guys that you know have the energy and potentially have the want to serve their residents as well outside of just you know the confines I guess of the I yeah I I'm this isn't for the mayor but there's clearly via email there's a a direct link to try to um I'll read the emails if we need to but we all saw them it the perception of this among the public is that there is a direct link trying to limit Travis as an individual from doing this I know we can change language that's not the case we don't need to get into the email I just I if these people are good enough to run in a house and pull me out or pull my child I have no problem to sit up here and make make decisions for the city I trust their ethical um basis and their want to serve their community and that's where I stand on so yeah that again I'll motion that we deny this based upon the mayor's comments we have a second any more discussion you don't know yeah this you got a thought on your on your lips I can see it well I'm going to not talk about the the typo you know one one point I thought saw in here that was um that I had really really thought through but I think is is pretty valid it's number two on page 225 says such a parent or actual conflicts of interest could compel an elect elected official to refuse from participation in decisions of the full councel and such recusals limit limits the ability of the elected official to fully represent the interests of the resident of the city therei thereby depriving residents of full representation in all matters before the council and I I think that you know the way what struck me about this piece of it is that um when you have to recuse yourself from a discussion and a vote then you you're your um feelings your opinions your experience whatever you're bringing to the table on that doesn't get included in it and so it it it sort of limits the role because of that apparent um conflict of interest and I think that I think that's a valid consideration that it does it does cut into the overall um validity of the council representing the entire Community um you know past that I mean can we point to any you know any specific um instances where where it would have made a difference if it was somebody else sitting in that chair I don't know you know I I think that we have a a strong contingent of support for the fire department I worry um that that's while that's an important part of our U our job our our charge here is to make sure that we provide an adequate level of Public Safety um I don't want it to be outsized be because of of affiliations with with the the fire department and that's a part of it that that's troubling to me you know is it enough to say that we can't that we shouldn't allow anybody to run I go back and forth on this all the time that's always conflict I know we've got a motion on the table I would rather I would rather table it then have to vote on it today but we've got a motion so we're table it for hold on I mean so we can table this but I mean in the end in six months or if somebody it couldn't be brought up again even if we deny it it can be brought up again in six months so don't really change the table or deny it in my mind for the end effect I have a question more to Amy based on something that David had said so if I recuse myself from a vote am I allowed to comment on it even though I'm not going to vote on it because in the past this we have some of us have recused ourselves and have made comments I I don't know it's right or wrong but the point you brought up I just's like Clarity on that you want Clarity from I would like a yes or like a yes or no question there are certain situations where you would have to both recuse from the participation and from the vote that's where if you had an interest in a contract that was being approved by the council um if it's a situation like this where it's an ordinance that affects you um then you know I think there's there's no hard and fast rule so it's really a a lot of the the the rules when it comes to um conflicts of interest and how an elected official handles that is kind of up to their own personal Judgment of of their ability to to be neutral and and weigh all of the facts and information fairly and that sort of thing there's no hard and fast rule of except in those specific situations where you have a direct financial interest or it's a direct financial interest of a family member of yours um or you have um your you know a party to a contract that you know is going to do the community survey or something like that for the city um but it really a lot of the time comes down to just the personal um Judgment of of the elected official about whether they can be fair and impartial so so you're referring to whether or not they should obstain I think we you asking about giving the reason for abstention I I'm more thinking of and I'm gonna pick on you if that's okay so know you abstained for um voting on The something with the property in the river I can't remember exactly what it was yeah yeah but I think you still and this is get not KN I think you still commented on like here's what's going on here's what my neighbors think here's what I think so that we were all aware so you were able to get the opinion the opinion and information of of those around you but you you didn't vote and to me I appreciate that because that's why they elected you was said to represent them so you saw the opportunity to voice on their behalf but you didn't vote on their behalf because you had signed the petition as well so that's the example I was trying to understand which I think it's the it's a balance maybe the Crux of what you were talking which made me think about like okay how do we really handle that everything about conflict of interest is a kind of a balance I mean whenever we so we cut taxes recently every one of us benefited um and it was a big benefit but I I think nobody would look at that as a somebody has to vote on it yeah yeah um we have we've over over you know past number of years we've had some Planning Commission issues where we say this this this isn't quite right um it's it's to me it's it's a it's a hard one to look at and to to say you know you you you really should obain or you know if you look at it and think this really has no interest in me even though I'm kind of related to it um I know not long ago we had somebody here that owned um property on um where was it at oh it was just next to it was just on rain on uh Whatchamacallit B bam and he abstained and I thought that's odd because he just all those people on that road just lost their representation because he did abstain but he felt that whatever they were voting on was significant enough to where he should stay out of it but it's always a question and it's always a sliding sliding thing thank you understand um I have heard in the past that uh in fact I think this is a long like Mar doesn't matter um made the claim that when you obain you had to give a reason now my understanding is at least since we claim to follow Robert's Rules Robert's Rules says you do not have to give a reason that's right and that's okay that's my understanding as well yeah that that's all right well we beat this up again yes we got a motion at second any more discussion and this is to deny it so this is oh no we're on that okay this is to deny that ordinance um more discussion just the one thing here it right on uh page 219 it says general incompat compatibility you're in a supervisor role right specifically says you're or are you in are you not I don't have the ability to hire fire reprimand any of that kind of stuff I guess to the fire department so all right I thought maybe you did okay we have Motion in a second and discussion is over all those in favor say I I I all those opposed say no anybody abstaining Mr salonic would you vote I went okay I went along with it I mean to me it covers he's out of the equation anyway so all right all right it's an i five to zero I'm glad I didn't wasn't just me I want to confirm that was to deny the or whole ordinance want to make sure I okay thank you I don't think you're ever I don't think you've ever done anything to benefit yourself financially I think I have my track record appr that my only deal is okay close session right close session do we have to read yes does Mayor really drain this we'll take a five minute recess actually may you could journ regular meeting can we do that before the open the closed session yes I thought we had do the closed meeting is actually technically a separate special it is so go ahead we're going there are OB will be adjourned all right we're adjourned we're adjourned yep so we're going to adjourn the meeting and then we're going to have a close session which makes it easier yes Chris you're good so what usually I get told to do is open the Clos during the other meeting e e e e