call for the 13 May 5th May 13th work session. Go ahead. Thanks, Mayor. Um, good evening all. Um, so this evening, um, why are we here? Um, kind of bringing back what we talked about, uh, May 7th last year as a refresher. Um and basically it's to reaffirm your commitment to the staffing model that was um put together over the last year. Um the biggest thing, one of the biggest things I want to pass along to city council is that the reason I'm ensuring this is because there is a cost to the relief association to dissolve. And what that cost uh ensues is basically using um the city attorney to help with their dissolution. Um and so before we uh venture down that road, I want to make sure that we have um commitment from the council to continue to go down this this path. So as a refresher um on 1223 the council approved resolution 60-2024 which is the dissolution of the relief association and uh resolution 602024 or 612024 to participate in the police fire of our part-time firefighters. Um so basically what that's doing is Yes. I have a question. Do you have a ballpark of what um the cost is to dissolve the relief? At least the ballpark figure of what that would take. It depends upon um I know the city attorney I believe is getting the city attorney's rate that the city provides. Right. Um I'm not really sure exactly what that overall cost is. Um but that comes out of the their correct. Okay. Sorry. But it's not going to be like $20,000 or nothing. No. when it's basically just to make sure that there's a process and they're following making sure that they notify creditors. They don't have any creditors, but they just need to like post that in the local, you know, the press that we utilize um some of those things. So, there shouldn't be a huge cost. Okay. But the attorney usually kind of guides that just to make sure that that process is followed. 100 bucks. Give or take. Give or take. Exactly. Um Thank you. Yep. And then so on 327, the relief association uh from the minutes that I received unanimously voted to dissolve the relief association as of September 30th of this year, 2025, which would then leave the uh police start a para um paid or uh duty crew model with full-time staffing to start roughly about October 1st. So with that, you know, what's the problem that we have here in the city of Dayton? It's not specific to the city of Dayton. Um it's everywhere and I'll show the comparisons as we go through the slides here but it's more demands of people's times um population change obviously from small rural community to more of an urban setting that we have today and then there's a decline in sense of civic responsibility or meaning participation in the ability to volunteer their time if you will. So the solution uh present a response model that ensures a reliable emergency response, supports the city's continued growth while providing a more predictable work life balance or work life fit as one of my firefighters told me today. Um fit is more of the millennial generation, but do they have time for it to fit into their schedule if you will? Our current staffing model is that you see up on the screen. Uh the entire department roughly 26 firefighters today gets paid out for all calls 24 hours a day, 365 days per year. The proposed staffing model um would be staffed here at station 2 um would be from 7 in the morning till 10 p.m. at night Monday through Friday with a minimum staffing of two firefighters. Station 2 would be staffed from 9 to 7:00 p.m. on Saturdays and Sundays with a minimum of two firefighters. And then between 10 and07 7 days a week, there's no staffing at the station. What's the reason for that? Primarily 78% of the call volume is between 7 in the morning and 10:00 p.m. at night. Um so therefore, um we want to make sure that we're able to meet the commitments when somebody calls 911. Can I ask a question? Yes. Um, during that 7 a.m. to 1000 p.m., what's our average calls per day right now? Average calls because none of the slides had any time stamp information on it or when those calls are coming out. So, while we're talking about it, that being the staffing, 78% come out between 7 a.m. to 10 p.m., what's the average number of calls per day? And we've got I can give you counts per week and counts per month. And then we give an average. Yeah. We take slide down here. That's the last seven days. Let's see. Sorry to dilation. my calculator really quick. Six. That's not right. Sorry. It's never easy when everybody's staring at you, too. Apologize for that. Take your time. We got all night. It's like when they ask you to do something. I swear I know what I'm doing. It's nice, huh? It's nice out. It's hot and out there. Oh, it's beautiful. It's beautiful if you're not doing any work. If you're just sitting and relaxing. So it's beautiful. So I have incident counts per hour of the day. [Music] Is this something that needs to been done tonight or can we get back to you on that? Maybe just trying to figure out what timing and I mean I think it's important information. It just Yeah. No, I I just 2.4 4 about 2.4. Okay. About 2.4 calls a day roughly. There you go. Okay. Thank you. During that 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. And is that a over what time period? Because that matters as well too. Is this over just this year? Is this over 2024, 2025? Like what are it matters how big the sample set is. I mean that's 7800 more than the total volume, right? So that can't be. Yeah. No, we're about Yeah, we're we're about 606 calls for the year. We're at this currently on this piece of paper. We're sitting at 242 calls for this year. Um so if you take 242 divided by, you know, whatever, but incident by call, I mean, I've got by time. I can get you though by day or by hour and by day if you'd like um in that capacity. But that's 2025, correct? for it would be through yeah January through 2025. I can do some other filtering on here as well to go back. The the problem that we have with 2024 is we have two different uh uh RMS models. Yes. And so we had er from January till roughly the September and then we started with a new one the beginning of October. So it causes a little bit of issues in that capacity. Thank you. So why does the model work? Um it provides a predictable level of staffing and response improve response. Um we're seeing roughly as of today shown about roughly an average of 8 minutes and 38 seconds for turnout, but some of that does include Kevin and I's time while we're here. Um supports um reduce burnout, supports recruitment or retention. Um supports work life balance, work life fit. um it's fiscally responsible. It's reutilizing um the dollars that have already been given to the organization. Um so instead of having, you know, right now we're getting about 4.8 people to a call. Um if we only need two, then I'm not paying people that are not necessarily needed. Now granted, that 4.8 is across all call types and then a safer community overall. So the demographics um roughly about a million dollars. Um right last year we have calls for service was 606 fire calls were 167 and medical are 438. So recently we've kind of switched and we're pretty comparable to other agencies. We're more of a 7030% 70% medical 30% um fire. Currently, we have 26 on call firefighters, two fire stations, a full-time fire chief and assistant chief. Please respond to all calls along with us. And like I said, we have roughly about 4.8 chief. Yes. It's it's not directly related, but um why compared to these other cities other than Rogers, which has a huge amount of commercial, is our per capita budget so high? What what drives that? Their budget or our ours? Ours. Um well, a lot of it has to do with um the paid on call model is very expensive from the capacity of when I need to bring firefighters on. So for instance, you know, for firefighter one, firefighter 2, EMT, all that those hours, the cost of the class for them to attend along with having to outfit each firefighter. So I think I said last year roughly per firefighter, it's about $17,000. Um, and that's just get them equipped and trained um in that capacity. Outside of that, a lot of it is uh 40,000 of his training. um 60,000 we put in for maintenance. Um we just engine 21 is out right now with uh an eight or $9,000 um radiator replacement. Um and anything as it relates to the fire service seems to be about 10 times more expensive when you say that you need for I noticed that. I I guess what I'm getting at here is uh the numbers you gave us. For example, St. Michael, we're at $90 per person. or per Yeah. per person. St. Michael's at 30. No, Champlain's at 43. McGerber's at 70. Groves at 70. Now, maybe Grove you can probably toss out because of sure size. Rogers is comparable to us, but again, I think, you know, Rogers has a massive amount of commercial compared to us. So, and I don't think it's paying on call because again, St. Michael has slightly more than us. So, I'm just wondering what drives that. Sometimes it depends too on what they're paying for too. I don't know exactly if they're paying everyone to go to their calls. A lot of pl or not their calls um to like training that comes into play as well. Um some places will pay for the class and not pay them to go to class. Um, so that could come into play there. Um, it's, uh, yeah, I mean, it's all over the place, like you said. Okay. Questions, I guess, uh, on these when you look at the the differences that we put up here. Um most if not all so Rogers and Ela Champlain um Maple Grove like I said you can kick out but throw it in there as example um Elk River St. Michael completely different Aussie a little bit different but some of our more comparisons all of them are running at least four or five full-time people um along with their pay on call model so that obviously that those four or five extra people throughout the day assist them with um responding to calls and right now it's just Kevin I have a clarifying question Yes. Um, so the cities that you have here, their full-time personnel are like a fire chief, a deputy chief of training. There's a, you know, most of these are assistant chief, um, full-time fire marshal. The positions that we're talking about today for the city of Dayton are not chief positions. They're not fire marshal positions. They are strictly just firefighters. Correct. Yep. Okay. So, what do they do when they're not fighting fires? So, there's many things that we can do. We need to do um pre-plans for our, you know, growits residential and commercial. We can do some community inspections as it relates to um community development. You know, some of those things is the model for that as well. We need a starter inspection program um for the uh fire inspection part of the house. uh we haven't been able to get out and do that. We also have Would they be qualified for that? What's that? Would they be qualified to do that? Sure. And there's a lot of our firefighters that are fire um get fire inspector war that can do that. Um and they're basic inspections at the end of the day. They're not like they're not plan reviews, if you will, like reading um water calculations for sprinkler systems and such. That would be more of the fire marshall's position. So it would be strictly just an inspector, not a marshall. Correct. Yep. And the difference would be experience training. Correct. Those Yep. They'd also be working with creating a community risk reduction plan with that implementing that plan. Uh maintenance, facility maintenance, truck maintenance. So they would then need to be an officer. Correct. Because per Care Resource Connections contract, doesn't your your community risk reduction person have to be an officer or a chief? Yeah, that's why everything goes to So would that be then these would be officer positions during the day or these would be strictly firefighters? They're going to be firefighters um with they're going to probably be leaders in the future because they're going to be full-time. So that that continuity between full-time and part-time, right? that they would not be able to be the risk reduction point of contact. Everyone really participates in that as a risk reduction because when they are not out on a call, they make the when Kevin and I are not on a call, they make the referral to us and basically our role is then to take a look at the call and then pass it on. So, it's really a pass on. Any other questions as it relates to kind of our regional comparisons? The uh call volume which I think is where we should be focusing but yep we're going to get I'm looking at again Rogers com to us and I think that's kind of you know star by it simply because of all the commercial St. Michael Milka Champlain Elk Gerber and then Maple Grove call volume per population is increases twice. Um my understanding is that's because we take all calls and they don't there's some of that but well looks like there's a lot of that. There's not though and I'll get into that here in a minute. Okay. So statistics projected incident call your year volume roughly 672 as the date of that. Let me scroll down on my computer see if we are roughly probably about the same which I think we are. It's probably within a couple that said 11.26 for right now. I think our statistics say more like 10 point something. So that's come down a little bit. And to help everyone understand how this works is right now we're scheduled at 669 calls. So basically what it's taking is historically up to this point and then it's forecasting the same exact data that we had last year moving forward. So when that changes that impacts the overall number. So I made a prediction at the end of last year saying it'll hit about 666. Right now I think this will probably stay pretty static. Um January and February we had a pretty uh erroneous months. They're record months. That wasn't just here. That was for law enforcement. That was also other agencies surrounding us as well. So January, February, a lot of sick calls, if you will. I mean calls to 911. So it's hard to see on here, but these are North Memorial statistics. Um, mayor, to your point, you want to reduce calls. I would think everybody would want to reduce call. My question to you is what call types would you like to reduce? And what why would you want to reduce those call types? Um because I believe other agencies I I think a lot of these calls at least I'm seeing I'm not sure our guys do much with them. Okay. So they show up to a call and they twiddle their thumbs. What's that do for morale? Um we we have another problem here that showed up in your stats. Okay. our response to these calls. Uh you're showing five for Dayton well below every other state which means and even on a you know responses uh for population that's way down. So, there's something going on that that that doesn't give them the drive to get in the car. Um, I know that years back when my dad was on the department, they would drop everything they were doing and go when that paper went off. And I suspect that's not happening. At least indeed. I've seen that that looks like it's not happening to the rate it is with these other cities and again these other cities they don't have our call volume which tells me they're not going to a lot of these calls also. So do you have a specific call type that you would like to reduce? Not necessarily. I guess I'd have to look at it and see what they're but what they're doing. Sure. To me I would think that fire wouldn't go to the fall. I I've fallen and I can't get up. Well, I'll push back on you. We should be going to fall calls and we should be going to lift assist calls, but that's where the value of care resource connections comes in because every one of those calls should be referred back because a lot of those are other things, not just, hey, I fell and I can't get up. It's why did you fall? What happened? Um, so my question would be, I guess, cuz Amy's here, can I ask? Yeah. referrals from Dayton so far this year because I'm looking at 2025 data was what you gave us, right? And how many do you know another number of referrals that we've pushed to you guys this year so far? Yeah, so far this year we have four open cases. Four. Okay. We closed um let's see, we've also closed some other cases as well, but um we had 13 closed and four. There should be 17 alto together. So we've referred every fall and every lift assist to care resources for the most part. No, the crews have been really doing sending them forward to to us. We're we're not referring every single fall because there's not a need to refer every single fall. So the firefighters are deciding when we're referring and when we're not. Right. Correct. And we went through training to do that. Right. Yep. And if they say yes, we're open and willing to accept help. Then it comes to you'll say no and again you know that's kind of where that repeat. Yep. Do you have a projection of how many like call reduction as far as like care what care resources has reduced from our call line uh since the beginning of 2024 or since the whole time we've been here. We're rated around you know that uh 30%. Okay. Of those repeat of the repeat calls. those repeat ball. I guess what I'm getting at and it's kind of a roundabout sort of a way. I think we have a lot of resources here that I don't know how do I say this. I hope and I would like to see us take full advantage of all of the resources that we have. So the the problem is and it's same with our embedded social worker. They have to be willing to take the help. If they're not willing um the you can do I hear you but When asking what role Care Resources had, a number of people I asked about it didn't know anything about the program and it was under they were under the impression that they weren't referring people that that was just Kevin who was referring people. So, I think that there's a missing link in there of training. I don't know what it is, but I will just come out and say that I don't know that we've taken full advantage of that resource. And it may partly, to your point, be that you know, people have to be willing to accept help, but you don't know the help is there unless it's offered to you. So, I could see that as being a way to reduce call volume. I also wonder some of these calls, and I guess I'm speaking from experience of secondhand being married to a firefighter, um, we don't make patient contact or we gave vitals and waited for the ambulance to come. So, I'm wondering if there was a way we can use our resources and look at those calls and say, you know, because unfortunately what happens and to your point, not getting people to get in the car and drive there. A lot of it is is, oh, this came out as this again. Well, last time we stood there, we gave vitals or they refused to let us give vitals and we paid three, four firefighters to stand there. And I'm not saying that they're not doing their job and I'm not saying that's not, you know, value there. I guess I'm just saying that it looks to me like there there's there's either an incentive problem or there's a problem in Dayton. I don't think it's just Dayton. It's not just Dayton. The part of the problem is is that um and and you have a different demographics from each of those other departments. If I go back on these, most of our holistically our entire organization with the exception of probably Travis, Kevin, Jeff West, Andorf, Kirk and Sharon. Kirk and Sharon. So, five of the 26 have tenure or have been here for some period of time. The rest of them have been here for a maximum of three years or less. So you have a different generation of firefighters coming in. Um and I completely see what you're seeing there is because that's my same question and talking to other people and if you look at kind of going back to an NOA chaplain and talking to an NOA chapl Chief Mazakati they're getting five to 10 firefighters. The problem is is they don't have the tenure firefighters that used to understand that hey it's important to go to these calls you know kind of motivate them in that capacity. So you have a new generation of folks coming into the fire service that don't have anyone there to kind of nudge them if you will. Well, I mean I'm also looking at simple call line St. Michael's place our size and then slightly less calls. I I I think a lot of these communities aren't going to all calls. Well, we'll talk about this. So these are the calls right here that we respond to. Difficult to see. Hopefully you can see it on your this is the numbers for this year. I can't do that myself. But the idea is that these are the different call types. The other thing that I want to I'll get to that. Um you know when we get these that come in the problem that we have and it gets to this point here. This is only a small segment in your packet. You have more. I didn't understand. I couldn't understand what that was saying. So this is what this is the biggest reason why it's important to go out to all these calls that you may not believe that we need to go to one in pain. So that's one here says pain on the left is if you look at this the left hand side where it says pain insulin problem dizzy faint lift assist so forth that's what the dispatcher sent out to us. If you look at the stuff on the right is possibly having a panic attack. This is what we are that's just one example. If you look at January 31st, comes in as an insulin problem for a 70-year-old uh female. Um that ended up being a fall. You look at the one below it that comes in as dizzy and faint and that's how it gets dispatched and it's an electrocution. Well, he got shot. Yes. Um you talk about lift assist, fall with injury, dizzy faint, hyerectomy with side pain. What value are we bringing to hyctomy with side pain? taking vitals and waiting for transport. Like I guess I'm just wondering like what value is the fire department specifically bringing to that call? We are providing or panic attack like what what are we providing? Well, I mean a friendly face. Yes. Yep. Friendly face. Um we are also having that contact because you know we currently are waiting or we will be waiting roughly about 15 to 16 minutes for each time north responds. The one thing that I haven't brought up yet, and I'll bring it up now, is the truck that's in Rogers is going to be no longer in August. So, that truck um will be done in August. And so, roughly about 200ish of our calls, that's what service we used. We were able to utilize that Rogers truck. Now you're going to have the truck responding potentially from Maple Grove station 4. If they happen to be at the Maple Grove clinic, we can grab or the hospital, we can get them dispatched from there. But the idea is that we're not going to have that resource. It's going to be a delayed response. So some of these that come across as But with all due respect, Chief, other than somebody showing up, what are we adding? What value are we add? other than somebody showed up and you're here and you're staring me in the face and I know that I'm not alone like which not trying to discredit but what above and beyond that are we doing by being there we have the ability to provide if it's an allergic reaction we can give epinephrine if it's I'm talking about your specific examples I'm sorry maybe I wasn't clear the panic attack and the hyerectomy that you have here is your examples y what are we doing like not on scene we're going to get we're going to take their vitals we're going to provide if they need oxygen, we're going to provide that to them. Um, it's that, hey, what else is going on? Because my point is is just because it came in as that, it's not necessarily what we're arriving to. Oh, more times than not, I agree with you. But my question to Paul then is your officers are EMR trained, first responder. Okay. So, they're already there, right? They're already there most of the time. If you're in your car already, you're going to beat fire. No, most of the time unless you're on another call. So if they are EMR trained they can take vitals correct if they needed to. We most of them I think have the finger. Do we have the I don't know if they the pulse pulse that no but you could if you got on a scene we could but the problem is is once we make patient contact you can't leave until so yeah if we were to rely more on you that would impact your you would add hours correct or officers correct that's kind of what I'm getting at is our EM or you're EMR trained you could also provide the same service in that in the specific in this example you could provide the same service that fire would provide no they could not take vital EMR is not the same as EMT no no we're not all not all of our fire is EMT and I don't believe they should be EMT but we can get to that later but threequarters of the department's EMT am I allowed to join in on this go ahead so I think you're downplaying kind of what she is trying to get to so the point he's trying to elicit is that what comes out from H County from the tower as one in pain is not as it always appears. It's never what correct and then we'll get to some of the data that about calls that are transported in or transferred in for pre-arrival. Yep. And that is that's a a very small subset of the overall medical population or medical calls for the city. I [Music] I to say that an officer on scene should take out a pulse and start providing you know vitals when they should have a global approach and a global view to what's going on outside of you know maybe that 49year-old that having a parentic attack something outside of that stomach ache precipitated that. So you take that officer who is potentially responding by himself and you dedicate him to this scene and he's now committed to the scene and he's committed to this patient losing his more broader range. So it it's not yes an EMR can take a blood pressure and put on a pulseox. You are I think you are misrepresenting the skill set that the EMTs have comparatively to an EMR. No, I agree with you. They are wildly different things, but we don't operate at an EMT level. We don't have an ambulance service. Correct. So, we give insulin. No, we give uh EPI. We give there's like 17 different things that we are I'm going to bite my tongue and not say what I want to say, but those are the things that we use our EMT training for. If you ask a lot of the firefighters, they say, "I don't know what I do different than what you do. Your EMR, I EMT." We don't do EMT level services. So that's what I'm trying to say is that we're trained to an EMT, but we don't exercise those above and beyond the couple things that we now have variances to do. So to say they're showing up EMT certified and they're giving EMT level is not true for the city of D. Define what an EMT is. We Okay. Well, we don't do the same things that a paramedic does. We don't do the same things that a rig would do. We don't do IVs. We do insulin. And you have to draw it up. And the guys are That's a whole another thing. We do insulin. We do EPI. They do Well, aside from that, they don't get the experience. No. I mean, that's my that's been my problem with this EMT thing from day one. If I need something and an EMT firefighter shows up versus this guy, I'll take this guy. Yeah. Don't don't touch me. I take one of them before I take one of me just at this at this time. Yes. But when I guess what I'm getting at is I don't know that because there's a possibility that something comes out wrong from dispatch. Does that say that it doesn't change and you can't say page fire out and we have a second page? We just lost four minutes if we're already 8 minutes out. If it's a heart call, we're 8 minutes out anyway. No, you're 12 minutes out. Correct. I hear you. But I guess what I'm saying is is I don't know that the two calls per day that we average, I guess, warrants this step is kind of what I guess I'm getting. But you can't take the 2.4 four days that calls per day that you average to pay for firefighters because you pay say 200,000 a year for a cop. We maybe average 2.5 calls a day, but some days we average 15 to 20, some days we average 1 to two. Correct. But you add value during the day different than what a full-time fire would have. But they can do their code enforcements. The firefighters can do the code enforcement stuff. the fire stuff where we're not we're just doing we we're public safety. We do the traffic enforcement. We do take all calls for service that come in. The biggest thing is is once we get on scene and we make patient contact, if we get a domestic, if we get an assault, if we get anything like that, we can't be right. You can't abandon your patient. Okay. Yeah, we get that. And and to your uh comment about Mr. Mayor your comment about um us showing up and having a face and council member Henderson. I mean it's the level of service that you want to give your community if you get a warm body that shows up when you're in that pain and in that and the residents are paying for it with their taxes. So, um, well, except we have responses at 4, five. They don't want to respond to calls. So, I mean, that's part of it that all this stuff kind of comes together, I think, and and our our fire departments having issues. So, yeah. And it's not just this fire department, though. That's the reality. It's statewide. Exactly. But that's not what I'm seeing from call responses. So, well, again, we've explained some of that already as it relates to some of that stuff, but the reality is it, as Chief Inga said, what's the level of service you want to provide to the community? At the end of the day, there is a difference between EMR and EMT. You and the guy can disagree to disagree, and that's fine. Um, I agree with you. There's a difference. I don't see us acting on the difference is my point. Well, the idea is that we have the ability to fix the problem as much as we can before they get here. The success rate for somebody that we have the ability to do variances with out variances. Now, granted, we've grandfathered I've grandfathered the I don't know how many do we have that are five EMRs left. Five EMRs that have been here, which is fine. They have the ability and they've been trained at the EMT level. We brought Dr. Tangi in to provide training to them. Um, we've had he's come in here. We've done several things as far as training goes as it relates to that. Back to the mayor's point of right now, currently station one, for example, because of its location does not have an opportunity to serve the community. So, they don't get those opportunities to go out. Yes, they're paged out. They get on the truck and unfortunately for them, often they're canceled because of the geographic area where the calls are. So that's very demoralizing in that capacity. With this system, all the firefighters are going to have the opportunity to serve the community from a duty crew perspective. Um so right now to do uh calls that would go to to uh that would be say primarily a station two issue. Does call one people get the call? Yes. The whole department they still Yep. They still come. Um we we don't have the ability to just segregate. We could we could to reduce calls but then station one would probably be called 10% of the time maybe. Yeah. In that just based on geographic location. Um this we kind of hit on you know 66 of the 85 we've had to make some changes to the call type obviously. Um, and I'll let Kevin talk on this, but before he jumps in on where he came to this, the biggest thing that firefighters, to your point, mayor, is that we have roughly five firefighters. It doesn't matter if it's a medical call or it's a fire call. We have roughly the same amount of participation on actual structure fires. So, to me, my biggest soap box since I've been here is work life balance because I've lived it 30 years on this side. I'm trying to make sure that they do have work life balance or work life fit, whatever you want to say, so that they have the ability and with this schedule and with the assistance of the full-time staff, um it brings down their level of participation, if you will. Right now, um we started off the year roughly with uh from January through June, they have to make 78 calls. That's 10 calls per month plus roughly about we'll say six to eight hours of training. Um and then our all calls. So we're trying to hit that roughly that 20 hours per month. Um if I look at what Seaggo is trying to provide, it's significantly more than that. Um and then this the unknown the predictability is often um hard on some people because they feel like they should be at the fire call but then they also feel that they need to be participating with activities with their family. So with the duty crew model um this isn't something that Gary just dreamed up on his own. It's been in the fire service. It's a stepping stone. You have three models basically. You have the ability to be paid on call like we are today. move to a gut model, hybrid model, and then ultimately probably to a fulltime model with still paid on call staffing. And that's that seagull model if you've seen that and what they're moving towards nine full-time and then augmented with part-time um paid on call firefighters. Plymouth currently has that and then there's some organizations that are strictly full-time. The schedule that you see in front of you, this is duty crew with no additional full-time staffing. So, five hour duty c duty shifts in four weeks. Basically, what that's going to do if we just had no full-time to help with deferring the call volume during the daytime with the other full-time staff, meaning Kevin and I, their requirement to participate in a month is going to go from 20 to roughly 40 plus. Um, they're not interested in that. um they want to truly operate um on the capacity of they want to participate in calls when they can. Um and often the numbers that we would need over time um as the call volume continues to increase just because we cut a certain call type isn't necessarily going to fix that. as we continue to get um the apartment complexes and the town houses that were recently approved along with, you know, currently we have a a bunch of uh empty commercial buildings. As those become occupied, our daytime um residency, if you will, increases dramatically. So then we have call responses to those geographic locations where we might not have it at night. And right now, like I said, 78% of our call volume is between that 7 in the morning and 10 at night. Um, so the idea is is to maintain 20ish 20-ish hours a month participation. They don't have to go to um we're planning on roughly four all calls per month thereabouts per firefighter. We anticipate there'll be about 80ish all calls throughout the year. Um, again, that's just based on current statistics. We could have something that's far greater than that depending upon weather or you know other extending circumstances. But I'll let Kevin talk about the next couple slides as it relates to the schedule. Yeah. Before you jump past that when you're talking about assigning these 5 hour shifts are people on site or they just being called in at that point. Yes, they're physically here at the station. So we're able to take that 8 minute response time or the median, you know, roughly people have the ability to live up to 10 minutes away from home. So if they're responding during the daytime, it could take them 10 minutes. Primarily, most of the people from station one is the area that live about 10 minutes away. Typically, most of them are in Seagull or Rogers. They have about 10. Can I for response times just to let you know, we don't know. It takes it's hard to get the statistics from Henipin County, but we don't know how some how long some of these calls sit in queue before we're even dispatched to them. Some can I think there was a house fire and before they even got paged to the houseire was like a 4-minute queue that it sat in before they were even dispatched to it. So we don't know exactly how long the queue is that sits at Henipin County either before somebody live answers the phone or no that's they answer the phone take the call but then before they dis house is on fire and now it sits in the queue it possibly could sit in a queue for four minutes before it's even dispatched that's everything no matter what kind of model you have so it's and that wouldn't be on these guys that' be on Henipin County is short staffed um so a lot of their calls and so busy currently ringing systems are that incident there can be delays there too. Part of our problem is dispatch is short 36 dispatchers today. They if they could hire 36 they take them and they'd hire them and that would fill the gap for today. They're also missing some other aspects that we need like GIS services that can help with mapping and a bunch of other things. Um, we had an instance last summer where we had missed uh auto uh departments help us extinguish a fire. Luckily, we're able to to handle that without additional assistance for a good 20 minutes. But some of this comes back to it starts with that call taker to your point of okay, they're getting that long as we're kind of talking about it. This piece of paper in front of you that you have, it's 8 and 1 half by 11 on two sides. This is the call CAD or CAD codes that dispatch has. So they have to take whatever it is. The ones that are highlighted in pink are the top 14 for fire. The rest of them are listed out as different CAD code types for whatever call that might come in. So if I call in and say that um I don't know my toe hurts, they might category as a pain and maybe somebody else categorizes it as something else. So we don't have that control over that. Hence uh you know when we look at calls that come in to um north and and to fire from dispatch we had 935 calls for service last year. roughly about a third of those um went to pre-arrival went so basically that pre-arrival means that they went to north for pre-arrival instructions meaning you know if they needed a himlick maneuver or they needed CPR or whatever the case but the other 2/3 say 600ish calls um those calls we don't really know exactly what they were so you know if you send Paul you know you might be able to help he might not be able to um so there's a lot of variables that we within the organization don't have control over. What we're trying to accomplish here basically is provide a level of service to the community that we believe is appropriate because when somebody calls 911, regardless if it's a stubbed toe or a toothache or whatever it is, that's their worst day. Um, and so we're just trying to provide that level of service to them to help them out. We've had some pretty sign significant successes in the last couple months. We had a 41-year-old male five weeks ago roughly um that was needed CPR um you know and he's walking and talking today at success story. I got a thank you card upstairs from another resident when they're having a seizure for their child. Um, so it might not seem important to us potentially and just taking their vitals and just doing that just I wouldn't say just taking their vitals because that's extremely important. That's going to give us direction. Are we going this way? Are we going this way with that patient? So if their blood pressure is super high, that's going to indicate something. If it's super low, so those initial vital signs are extremely important when we pass off that information to North go to get those. Yeah, I think to kind of go off the seizure, you know, it's it's one of those things that they're calling in, you know, even though Northway eventually get there or PD gets there, right? You have one vict you have one patient with a seizure, that doesn't mean you have one patient, right? You get on scene, all of a sudden you have the patient who's in seizure, which we can address that, we can we can assist with that. we can give out to all that kind of stuff. But sometimes it's the parents or the spouses or the family members that actually need more help than the patient, right? Having that friendly fa face to show up, make that face to face, talk to them, talk to talk them through it. They may have never experienced anything like this before. So just having somebody there to talk with them is huge and almost does more for them than the actual help to the patient itself, if that makes sense. So, uh, but going up to the duty crew model here. So, looking at this with the current, uh, two full-time firefighter staffing and what we're looking at scheduling wise and shifts to cover. So, if we did not hire the two full-time, right? And we're going off of just strictly paid on call. We're looking at a total of 104 5-hour duty crew shifts in in a total of four weeks that we'd be looking to cover. With that 104 shifts between the 26 current firefighters that we have on staff, you're looking closer between training um shifts um all that kind of stuff. We're looking closer to let's see uh each firefighter will have fourhour shifts or two four shifts per month on training. Uh so we got eight hours per month. Uh and then on top of that we have four all calls which we anticipate that would be the new requirement. But they have training anyway, right? So training even without this, they still have this. Isn't it the same training? Yep. So that that's worth it. So So what we're looking at without the full-time staffing, so we have 104 shifts divided by 26 firefighters. So you're looking at roughly about 20 hours per month for a firefighter. At that time, we're still doing the two trains per month. So six trains a quarter. Uh you're looking at eight hours right there. Uh each firefighter will be required to do four all calls beyond the pay on the duty crew shifts. So you're looking at four hours right there. So you're getting close to 32 hours at a minimum just to maintain that with the 26 firefighters. Um we got a lot of feedback that even at our current model of you know trying to maintain right around that 20% 22% it's becoming tougher and tougher. So, and that's even if we were to pay the $17 an hour at 32 hours or pay the $30 at 32 hours, you know, the pay might be more substantial, but it's the I don't have the time is what we keep getting. And we keep continuously seeing the low staffing that we're getting on these calls. Mayor, um, you know, that to Chief's point, you look at some of the other departments like St. Michael um or even you know Albert Phil whoever Albert River they have a lot of tenure members that have that no different than your dad they have that mentality of I drop everything and I go right the younger generation that we have currently that are coming in that are working for us have the mentality of well I have other stuff I need to do I'll just do my other stuff and it whatever happens happens right but that's not serving the customer and that's not serving the the public we you know that's they're paying the taxes we need to serve and we need to provide a good customer service, good experience. Um, I guess what I was getting at with that comment is is it seems like the incentive to want to do that. I if you're saying that Dayton is different because we have younger firefighters that don't want to respond. Um, we have a lot younger firefighters that have a lot more stuff going on is the problem is they have such a big don't. That's what I'm getting at the 80 here saying that we are well below the other but we have a lot of other surrounding departments that have those those members that are 60 50 years plus are all retired that that's all you do. you're saying are so with having that younger generation their their schedule they have kids they have sports life is busier busier is unique in that that's what I'm waiting for I mean you look at you look at uh AIO for instance their average turnout's 5 to six but AIO you know but still they have 20 very similar but a lot of their staff is all four years or less right so you get it's that generational differences of priorities is what you're seeing I think we're back to I don't know where on this conversation anymore, but the the call system we have was set up and I guess everybody continues to use it in some Well, I don't know then. But the call system we have was set up when people like Dennis's dad were around. Everybody got the page and they went, right? And that's not what happens anymore. No, you get 18% on average of the firefighters to show up. So why are we still using that call system if it doesn't work? Mhm. And that and that's really I mean we're getting low staffing to the point where and and not just that we're getting low staffing. We're talking to the firefighters asking what we can change and at the end of the day we keep getting the same answer of I don't have any more time to give up. Right? They're giving all their free time and they have no more free time. But that's because this is the other choice you give them. Why? Why? I guess so this gets into some minutia that maybe we we need to get in later when we try to figure out how to fix some of this. But why don't we have at least partly a call system that works like every other company works? You're on call. That just means you will be showing up. Now, I understand that's going to add again some some some turn time, but it's it's going to be better than what we got today. I would I would gladly take that, mayor, without a doubt, because then I have predictability, but that's a full-time model because why not? Are you paying them on call time then to answer that phone when they're home? Maybe. I don't know. I think to some extent, I guess I'd be open to that to to give them some of those five hours. I I'd be open to that. But, you know, we've talked I I brought this up to them already in the past since I've been here. Gave them the opportunity put together, hey, we'll pay you x amount of dollars to stay at home during this time. They're like, no, I'm not going to stay at home to get paid $25 stipen or whatever to go to sit there to know that, hey, my buddy's over at on the lake fishing or whatever he's doing. I get that. But not all 26 are are looking to go fishing. No, but the other half of them want to spend time with their kids or whatever. I mean, it's this is not anything new. They don't they don't want to be handcuffed to their house. Mr. Mayor, members of the council when I was on the fire department, they did to have on call on weekends. It didn't work then. Well, this is on call, but they're here. How is that better for them? They don't have to rely on their painter then. So there there's there's a fixed amount of Yeah, they're here, but it's like you have to I can see why they don't like that. They don't like what? This. Well, it's not that they No, this they want this. They The problem is Oh, sorry. You I changed the They don't They don't have the the previous slide. I can see why they don't want that. Yes. Right. Because they don't want to put any more time in. That's where their 20 hours a month is their max in theory between calls, training, maintenance, and whatnot. That's roughly about what we're seeing from the organization is that they want to participate about 20 hours. Why are Oh, sorry. No, that's fine. So, some of them some of them don't have that for, you know, for which I respect. Um, so there isn't kind of back to what you had said, mayor, is like there isn't really I've tried a couple times different things to come up with of how can we encourage them to participate, but at the end of the day, um, one firefighter is like, "No, even in this process, he's like, I'm not going to participate in the DQ." He's been honest with us, and that usually happens because I don't I don't have the time. Some of them are, you know, part of it is sometimes they can come and sign their name and go home. Sometimes that's not the case often. Um, so you guys, the argument you're making is the demographics of our fire department is just significantly different than all these other ones. It's not significantly different. It's just that ours right now. Well, it is significantly different from the capacity of the age and the participation or the age of the organization as far as experience and tenure is probably far different than if I had to take a poll of the other organizations to look at. you know, they'll probably have some 20-y year members, 25 year members, you know, and that might go down from there. Um, and a lot of like you look at Rogers, it's and they started out with their public works being able to respond during the day. Um, they have gone away from that because of liability and pays and all that. That makes sense. Um, so they have generations of family that have stuck in the Rogers area. So they have a lot more of that the camaraderie that father, son, grandson are all joining the fire departments where all of our older gentlemen that were on the fire department, all their kids have moved out of the city don't and are on fire departments in other cities instead of our city. But a lot of it is that is we notice it with generations and the cops too. Um, we can't get some of them to work overtime. They won't work overtime unless you mandate it. They won't work. Makes sense. I mean, I understand that part. Do you two guys count as as uh the 26 firefighters? No. No, you don't. No. Okay. So, my question would be, and I this is I don't understand this part of it, and I come from the way back when when if you wanted to pay the bills, you had to go to work. That's just the way it is. You better starve. Fair statement. Yeah. I mean, that's reality. Uh why is it that we can't say John, you got 6 hours on Tuesday, whatever day it is, that's your shift because right now we have uh there's 168 hours in a week. And if you if you divide the 28 firefighters that we have, that's six hours a six-hour shift. And you just tell them, Pete, John, you're here. That you're on call that day. You don't have to be here, but you're on call. You're at your house that day. That's exactly what we're presenting. No, they got to be home. No, at their house is what you're saying. But there there's there's reason to having them in the station, though. There's a big benefit to that as well. Uh not just, you know, they're not just going to show up and just sit here in the station two of their thumbs, right? They're going to have planned agendas. They're going to have trainings to do. you know, every night when they come in, they're going to have uh public relations, whether it be training, facility maintenance, uh inspections, pre-plans, there's a giant list of stuff that they can be working on in order for us to build out our city and make it more uh a better, safer community, right? Uh for even instance, for tomorrow night for the open house, I sent out emails to the department saying, "Hey, I'm looking for two helpers for tomorrow night and I haven't got a single person to volunteer." You know, this in this model, we have two people here, staff, sitting here. I can say, "Okay, tonight you guys while you're on shift, you're going over to do PR tonight at the open house." We get a lot of those unfulfilled requests. I mean, you know, Elizabeth has asked for things and we tried to accommodate. People are not interested. You know, well, National Night come national or night national night out will be coming up soon. They're really interested in what I've often said is that they're uh it's not about the Benjamins they're putting in their wallets to your point, Scott. It's really about their time. Their time is their form of currency, if you will. Yeah. But if you don't want to make calls, you're not a firefighter. Then I I don't disagree with you. I mean, we're I mean, and that and that's the thing of I I think there's an often for the I'm no different than like like what you guys have said, you know, my page would go off, I would go to the calls, I would respond to whatever it was, and I would go. And the struggle that I have is it's like, okay, we've trained you or you've put in the time to train with the organization and you put in 360 hours for EMT, firefighter one, two, and hazmat. And then we get on a rare occasion, we'll get a structure. We're getting, you know, maybe we get a mutual a call, maybe we get one or two structure fires throughout the year. And for those significant calls, even if you're trained from the EMT for or even if you're EMR, unfortunately, we had a seven-year-old that passed away. I had one firefighter respond to that call and one full-time firefighter and it wasn't me, it was him. And my c my cops were busy doing security on the family. So, we couldn't do much patient care. So, but to your point is we've seen a a a switch in in the culture of I want to be part of the organization, but I want to be a part of it when I have the time. Yeah. Unfortunately, unfortunately to me, then then all you want to be is a glorified guy. Hey, I'm I'm a firefighter, but you don't don't want to do any work. It does seem odd. They'll go through all these hours of training and then, hey, don't want to do anything. But that I I don't disagree. That's that's kind of where we're at because Are you sure you don't have another problem in the department where they just don't want to show up? You know, we we've had multiple conversations to see what we can do to things change and it it's all comes down to time. Comes down to time and it comes down to family and sports and kids. I get all that. You look at the average age of our firefighters, I think there's only maybe four that don't have children and all of them that do have children all have children in the ages of that zero to I would say five, six range, right? Where they're right at that peak of sports starting. We got hockey, we got baseball, you know, it and you have you have both parents working, right? So, it comes down to what do I have available to respond and it gets smaller and smaller. I have a question. So, So around this this call thing because I'm I'm never going to get past this. I don't think that how many people do you think you would lose if you went to a scheduled paid on call system? We pay people five bucks an hour or 10 bucks an hour, whatever the going rate is these days to carry the pager. Sorry, for that for that week, that 4 day period, whatever your 26 guys divided by the number of shifts you got to fill, but they're on a schedule. You're on call, right? When I was in a role, I had to do this. I was my week of on call, I was on call 125 and a half hours. So, every hour that I wasn't physically on site, I was on call that week. I planned my life around it. Right. Now, we didn't require that you be at home, but the response time to the hospital was was the piece you have to commit to. So, you needed to be within that distance. How many people would you lose if you went to a system like that? It's hard to say because that's really what this system is, except we're scheduling them to be at the station from a response time perspective, which means they are not with their family. What's that? I said that means they're not with their family. They're exact. But they're not with their family for a dedicated period of time. The rest of the time they are with their family. Y Yeah. It's just six hours out of the week. If they're five or six hours out of the week they're dedicated to the We're we're talking 10 hours a month is what we're asking for. Not six hours a week. I have a question. Why are both chiefs on the same at the same time every day? Seen that too. And my second follow-up question is is if everyone else is required to take some sort of weekend shift, if you're asking that of your people, why why do we not see even one weekend from the chiefs or one weekend day? We I come whenever I'm available at home. So I'm on call 365 days a year. So my question is then could we not stagger your shifts and have one week you start at 7 or 7:30 whatever this is my eyes are blurry and then the next week you start at noon. Why could we not? Cuz we have two full-time now we're paying and then supplement in between with the paid on call. Yeah, it does seem like you'd want to stagger the expertise, right? Especially because we're such a young department. We would want to have that ability to train and have that hands-on one- on-one and that's where Kevin and I are already here on Thursday nights um in our capacity of coming in and supporting those other events, right? But so are they. I guess I don't you never ask of your people what you wouldn't also do. I guess it's just how I've always viewed it. So I'm wondering if there isn't a world where those shifts could be staggered in some capacity and maybe it is just more e into the evening calls to cover where that 70% of the calls happen so that there's a chief here that we pay full-time and then you supplement with your paid on call. My other question is is we used to do response teams at night. They won't do them. Who's there? The department. We just had this conversation with them. So, the department wants to run uh they brought up with medical teams and we offered they they asked if they could do medical teams. I said, "Sure, we can do medical teams, but we're going to do medical teams seven days a week, right?" And they said, "Well, we're not going to do weekends." I'm like, "Well, what's the difference between the person that's called 911 on Saturday or Sunday versus Monday through Friday?" And they said, "Well, then we don't want to do them." Okay. And that's the old model that they used to have when I was in the fire department. You were on call, but only one station did it. When when Travis started, we all did it. Station two did it. Station one did not. Yeah. Station one never was always station two. It worked well. I enjoyed it. It was predictable. I knew he was. Again, that goes back to that predictability of you know when you work. Kind of just like this duty crew model. You know when you work if you're scheduled from 6:00 to 10:00 and then you come back. You knew when you were on call. Knew when you were on call, but I was still sleeping next to my husband. It didn't work. The we had issues with the on call or the being on call for the seven days a week. Even people that were on call would not show up for calls. So, you still ran into issues with the I don't remember us having a ton of issues and we did it for multiple years when Travis first got on. I did it for eight. I I hear you, Paul. I'm just saying that we did it and I thought it worked well. Maybe you as a family didn't have issues, but the department was struggling with the on call model, at least when I was on. Well, you were gone before, so we were still struggling. I don't I don't get I don't this doesn't make sense to me and I I I feel like there's a hundred other ways we could skin this cat. I don't like the two chiefs on at the same time. And unfortunately, I started out as a working chief when I first started as chief in 2014 and my administrative duties and then I hired a lieutenant and his administrative duties. That's Monday through Friday for us. Um it's no different. We're meetings. We're constantly running places. Um, a lot of community engagement stuff. Um, is what we deal with during the week. And I used to put in trying to be at everything. I used to put in 70 80 hours a week doing stuff. And it burnt me and my family out at least. So that's I think even compared to I know Fidley for instance runs a duty crew. Uh Amy is a spouse. Her husband Mark Luck who's on freely running the duty crew, you know, from a spouse standpoint. Yeah, I'm happy to if it's okay. Yeah. So, when um you all know Caitlyn has special needs, so it's really important for Mark and I to have that that balance at home. Um but when he was on leave, um I loved it. loved it so much that I actually asked my husband to leave Dayton and focus on Britney because I had a predictable model and I could work. I had my work life balanced. Caitlyn's needs were met. He was able to keep up on his skills working with a lineup. He knew what had to be done. You know, I think um I I'll share two things as as a spouse. I like the fact that Mark had to do 15 hours a month. He ended up always, you know, Mark, he he was there. People would call in sick. They put the shifts up for a bit. And it was a threemon calendar, right? So, um, we would sit down as a family and we would say, "Okay, what do we have going on for work? What do we have going on with the kiddos?" And then I would tell Mark, "Yep, you can do this date, this date, this date. I'm free. We can work around this date, this date." And we had a threemon calendar that we knew. And it didn't mean you were locked in, you know, something happened, you know, I'd say, "Hey, bud. You want to take my ship?" And you switch off your ships, but it allowed um Chief Spencer, God rest his soul, he's passed now, but it allowed Chief to um have a predictable model for the city of Fidley. And then now, you know, Madison's old other chiefs at Maple Grove, but it allowed him at Fidley to work with Alina, work with the PD. They're also public safety, so it's a little different. But I think as a spouse, I can say that when we're talking with police and with fire, um there's such a difference in how we have to look at the overall public safety and what EMS brings as a whole, too, because you all rely on each other and how can you do that balance and you guys are in a in a community that Yes. sharing all the data. I love seeing this open dialogue and you know you're here bringing data to make these types of decisions. Um, but your community is growing and there are different needs. We are starting to see more multicultural 911 calls coming out of Dayton now and so there's there's that piece. But when Mark was at Fidley and he had his predictable schedule, they would do the truck checks. They would work on different things. they would work with the line in specifically to work on those skills, have those one-on- ones and they were doing um the inspections, you know, they were going out doing visiting the group homes, doing all different things in the community that if they're at home waiting for just the call to come, we're being more reflective. And if we want to look at building a community risk reduction um plan for the city of Dayton as a whole, we have to look at where we're going to be utilizing like Stephanie says, where can we utilize the best resources at the right time and having public safety come together with you guys and looking at where is the balance here? Yeah, maybe 2.4 port call on average a day. But if we've got two people dedicated at the fire station then and if north is going to be the demand and staffing too on the EMS side is is ridiculous. Um but I think looking at look at how they're being paid lightss on lights off hurry up and come and that unpredictable model and then there is really a value coming from a clinical perspective. There is the value to have your firefighters as an EMT versus an EMR because this is the biggest support for EMS. And yes, it may be vitals. Yes, it may be different things and there are variances, but during that duty crew model, pull that tangy, hold your medical, you know, uh, medical director accountable and say, "Hey, at certain times I want to have North come out here because I have these guys here and they have this." But there's ways to do it. And that's how it was in Friley. You know, they went and they sat down and with Alina and they said, "Here it is. We have this small budget, public safety, police and fire, but this is what worked for ours." And they filmed it. And as they did it, the data grew, you know, and you were able to extrapolate different data and see, does this work? Does this work? But without having some type of a predictable model for the um department um it's really challenging you know and for all of us I mean I you've worked with other ones but I can tell you as a as a family member with Fidley it uh it worked very well and we didn't have a predictable model in Dayton you know Mark's back here now and you know working on different things but um yeah it's it's one of those things where I I can tell you on we're in station one, we live in ONGO. There's many times Mark's the only one that shows up and then he sits there and it's frustrating as a wife because I'm like, "Hey, we can't watch TV on a Saturday. We can't have date night. We can't do stuff with Caitlyn because it's unpredictable." And then he comes back and he's like, "Well, I made my call, but I'm the only one on the show." Well, I mean, that's kind of a bummer, right? So, I just think we're we're in a weird space where we have to look at it all always. I don't think there's any doubt that scheduling call makes sense. Yeah. My my issue is well, a couple issues. For one, for one, I again I think our call volume needs to be examined. too. Um, we whether or not they need to be here for all five hours or I mean maybe you know maybe I mean all this the details we can we can hear later but maybe the night call say I I don't know. Um, but really I mean this this issue wraps around not just this but the the full-time also and I don't know you have a lot of experience with fire departments. Yep. Does it make sense that we we should be at full-time at this point in time. I I your call volume itself and I don't want to put anybody in in in the box but I I do think that you could see both sides. So you could see if you put two full-time firefighters, they could do, you know, fill the gap so the crews aren't expected to spend so much time, right, doing pulling the duty crews. Um, you know, if if you are looking at reducing your call volume by per type, um, you know, and it's going to it's going to fall back on EMS, it's going to fall back on the response. Um, right now at 2.4 for working with other fire departments. They look at they would utilize those two full-time to be like how the other cities have it. Like this person would also be there wearing a little bit of multiple hats kind of doing a couple of different things in that place. I see having that multi- use person doing the duty cruise. Um, but you know, it's it's it's one of those things where yes, just looking at the numbers, the argument could be, well, at 2.4 calls on average a day, do we really need to have two full-time people? But if you look at it as what those full-time people are going to be doing at the station and how they're going to be helping EMS, how they're going to be helping PD, really looking at how can EMS, PD, fire, listen, do we need to be coming to some of these calls? Maybe we need to be like, you know, an open chaplain. But there's danger in that, too. Because there's also and alignina can tell you is when you say I'm going to take it as info and leave it on the the medics that response is ultimately dialed down to that patient having to wait and we see that a lot of in with the line you know but it is tough you know I see both sides and I just think that based on the data based on how Gary laid it out you know that's why I'm here today is to say you could utilize the two full-time people if they're utilized in multiple ways to take the the onence off of the firefighters are already have struggling to come to calls already. You know, there there needs to be something that has to be built out to to work from. And if you're focusing just on the on call firefighters, it's going to be really hard to have that infrastructure. You know, you're going to have to invest in how you want to deal with your public safety as a whole, whether it's on the police, whether it's on fire, whether however, but ultimately here in the city of Dayton, you know, the the call volume and the response time is going to be, you know, more and more. We have group homes that we're dealing with. we have, you know, other things coming into the city that uh everybody needs to be trained differently on. And there's no pre-planning in any town right now, honestly. You know, so that's that's what those folks would be focused on during the day and and working on those challenges. The other part of it too, just a couple things to kind of close out as we're getting close to the end, is that from a relief association perspective, $3,250 a year of service um is not enough money um to maintain that because based right now after 10 years they're vested at 60%. We're not seeing firefighters stay for 10 years and that's just not here in Dayton, that's across uh fire service. Um so trying to come up with something there. There are a lot of communities that um are built out that are larger. I'll just use a couple examples. Um I don't what's do you know what Rogers or um what are the chances that for their service or how they're set up? Right now they're partially vested I think at 10 fully vested at 20. Do you know what they're dollar amounts? There's I want to say because they're a defined contribution defined benefit different setup. Yeah. much much more lucrative pension than us. Uh I mean after 20 years they're walking away with two anywhere from 200 to 400,000 versus 60,000 and part of that is based upon a lot of it's based upon um our commercial buildout and just as we continue to grow those dollars will grow. you look at based on how we have set that up right now, we're trying to utilize dollars that have already been allocated to the city as well as using the dollars that would be given back to the city for the relief association. So that would offset um roughly a percentage of um the full-times contribution to police and fire repair um u as well as some of the uh other firefighters that we moved into that as well. So reutilizing those dollars without the full-time staff um we will remain status quo. Um we'll remain at $17 an hour and we'll continue the the model that we're moving forward that we have today. Um I'm not sure what the response from the organization will be uh because this is something that we've been working with them on to come up with more of uh work life fit, work life balance, whatever based on their time. Um and this has been a collaboration. This isn't just Kevin and Gary coming up with what this looks like. And the duty crew model is a model that's been out there for 25 years. Roseville and the city of Plymouth started this and it's grown from there over time. So basically, like I said, we're in that time of growing pains within the community and we need to start to look at um you know, what's that? How are we going to continue to serve the community? And the reality is Minnesota is very unique in the capacity of having roughly 780ish fire departments. You're seeing a lot of failures at fire departments in rural Minnesota because there isn't enough staff there, very similar to what we have here. Um, and if you look at some of the departments across the country, um, you will see that they started approaching the call numbers that were saying it roughly two calls or more per day um, roughly starts to impact um, as it is here um, your response by your pay call staff or your volunteer staff. So what do we spend on paid on goal right now annually? Do we know anybody? Last year's cost was like 106 67,000 roughly. You could say 170 that was based on last year's call volume. So um 106 107 167,0007. So about $170,000 roughly. That was based on last year's call volume. This year's call volume has gone up. So it would be more than that this year. I don't know what that exact number is. What is the requirement for parah? So you have to have a scheduled shift. What's the number of hours? There is no requirement. So you just have to have a scheduled shift. They have to be equal. The only thing that has to be equal availability like you know you can't just say okay you you get 15 shifts you get two. They have to be equally everyone has to have the same number. That's it. There's no minimum availability. It has to be actual number like Yeah. Like uh one person might really want to work and they can work 15 performance system. Yeah. But like you have to be they have to be available like okay everyone's scheduled out three shifts this month but one person might not want to work any of their three shifts so they can give all three of theirs away. Does that make sense? Yes. But but there is no minimum like you have to be scheduled x amount of hours and it pays for hours worked for them. Yeah. So it's based on your annual salary for the first five years. Then it's called your top five and then whatever those top five are then they go based off that once you number of years of service and then number of years service based on your top five salary for each year is then the benefit that you get each each year as I mentioned on the front end we're making a contribution for hours worked. Yes. So it's a percentage 11.7% and then the um we sorry we we contribute 17.7 and then the um firefighters firefighters contribute 11.7 of their salary percentage. So it's almost what 28 and a half. Yeah. Roughly. So yeah, it's trying to really, you know, up that fundamentally to to pay them to, you know, show up to a certain extent is that's that incentive. The longest time with the incentive was the relief association relief association. The other thing that it offers the city is it removes that liability um from the city. So currently, as you're aware that sometimes we have to kick in for that if their performance is not where it needs to be. I think it's 80% or Yeah. All right. Well, if there's no objection, we will