[laughter] We can do it. You can't do nothing about it. Make sure that doesn't come out past your drive. >> Important thing is you don't want it. >> There's money to be made for. >> No. right here. >> Where's your driveway? You want to make sure that doesn't interfere with your driveway. And then this comes down right there. >> That's what you want to make sure. You don't want to come up here and have to turn around. >> Pull it into his field. He didn't want me. [laughter] >> Feel bad for >> chunk of one. [laughter] >> Like this one here. He'll just grab that chair and put it here. Where do they want to put the roundabout on somebody else's so they can make more money? They have more square footage. >> It's astonishing kind of how that >> kind of would they do the lighting like the similar one that's on the roadway or like the other football stadium one that was >> All right, I think we'll get started here. I'll do my best to make sure everyone can hear as best we can. um you can grab a mic if we get any um issues with hearing things. But thank you for attending the meeting. We appreciate each and every one of you for coming out. We'll do short introductions. I'll kind of give a short introduction again of why we're here um and why we invited you um individuals to be in the meeting right away and then we'll get to questions. Um we are recording this so that um we are able to um basically replay this later on with any residents who are looking for it that may not be able to be here tonight that we're within the area of us um kind of our focus area. So um as an injunction my name is Zach Doubt if I have not met you. I'm the city administrator and finance director here at the city of Dayton. >> Uh Jason Quisberg I'm the city engineer. Nicole Guick, roadway designer, >> Stantech. >> Yeah. >> John Sevel, I'm hiding as the community development director. [laughter] >> So, um, as an introduction, I'll probably pass it off mostly to Jason here, but as an introduction, this is a high high level plan. Again, it's a plan from the city of Dayton to try to address some of the issues and concerns that we've heard from Fernbrook residents um mostly over the last couple of years, but I know probably have been ongoing for several years with the developments that have happened in and around Fernbrook is to address some of the traffic concerns, whether that's access, whether that's speed, um and then also future development that comes in this area. The idea for us to do is just to kind of get a high high level idea of a planning perspective of um what are we looking to do, what's it going to cost, and who's going to be the contributors to where the funding sources are going to be at. Um we have not designated any specific dollars to this um project at all right now with the city of Dayton. We have some highle planning dollars for um future roadway costs, but they're not identified specific to these projects. The only dollars that we have identified so far have been from the DCM farms development and we did get $2 million from that development in order to do essentially a intersection improvement at the 114th um re um a realignment which is the center one that you see on the picture um the highlighted one at the bottom again that has not been designed the yellow lines were as well as best done as we could on the drawing they showed up really well on on your uh PDF but they don't show up real well in the pictures. So that's the one we have identified funding for. If we're able to spread those two that $2 million larger thanum that one roundabout or that one intersection improvement at this point, we can use them for other dollars along Fernbrook for the corridor. So our goal is to get a funding source available, get some high level planning and then go from there. Um the reason why you guys are all involved is because this is a project that would directly affect you and potentially some right ofway and or easements that we would need along Fernbrook. That's why we specifically have sent out a um essentially a mailing for you individuals along Fernbrook. We understand that this affects a lot of residents and there will be another open house that we have for the greater area, but this affects you guys directly and potentially some land that you may own that we may need for right away andor utility improvements, um easements, whatever we may have you. We have nothing identified yet. I want to make sure that that's clear. We don't have anything identified yet, but um that's kind of where we're at. I'll send it off to Jason and then we could ask for and stand for any questions you may have. >> Fire away. >> Well, that covered a lot of what I was going to say. I don't have anything formal or elaborate on this, but thank you all for coming. This is a great turnout. This is a lot more than I was expecting. So, um, part of the main things I was hoping for is for one to get contact info so we can stay in touch with all of you as this moves forward uh in the future. Um, I do want to say what we're showing tonight. This is all very very preliminary. So we are on the very infant stage of this project. This is not necessarily what it's going to look like at the end. These are our initial thoughts to get something on paper. They're far from designs. U but we did want to show something generally what we're thinking at a concept level. The city has a loted funds to do a study to look at this corridor specifically the intersections justify the improvements at those intersections and then using that information in attempt to gain funding for the project. So very very early stages, we wanted to get your feedback on what are your main concerns. Is it pedestrian crossings? Is it um you know different impacts? Maybe there's something specific that we're showing on here that would be a detrimental conflict on your property that we might want to try to work around those types of things. So definitely want to hear from you tonight. So what I have to share is going to be very short, but I'm hoping that we'll have a lot of questions and discussions if you have any uh concerns specific to your properties. So, um, as Zach mentioned, you know, potentially long overdue projects. Everybody knows there's significant development going on along this corridor. With [clears throat] that comes additional vehicles, additional trips on and off of 100 or off of Fern Brook Lane. So, our intent with this is to facilitate the access points uh in a safe manner using roundabouts is our preferred method. Um, we have looked at signalized intersections in the past, but we're going um with the roundabouts now. We have been in contact with the county. They are in favor of the roundabout solution at these intersections at least at this stage. So, we are looking to move forward. Again, no funding is identified. So, therefore, no real timeline, but what we are targeting is like a 2028 potential construction. Um, ideally, we'd see these coordinated such they could be done as part of a single project, whether that's done over a one year to a two-year, maybe a three-year period and phased. But as you're probably all aware, any detour with this section of road is ridiculous. It's a especially being a county road, they have to detour on county roads, and it's literally about a 17 mile detour to get to the other side. So, we want to limit the disruption as much as possible. I won't lie, there's going to be significant disruption with this, but the idea would be to phase it to to limit those as much as possible. Um so I I really I really don't have a whole lot beyond that but would love you know general questions um for sure now and then absolutely everybody can have the opportunity to come up and hopefully someone can ask answer specific questions as well. Marcia >> I'm just wondering um the housing developer on 117th did you guys get any money from him for the roads too? Um if Braver Trails >> Yes. Um well he well for one they built all of 117th. So they built that all the way um to the west well all the way to East French Lake Road. >> Um with the initial development he did contribute he's actually funding the study we're in right now. So he did contribute. It was $125,000 towards the preliminary engineering of the project. >> Yeah. Got several um said 2028. Now, some of these communities like the ones directly behind us may be already built next year developers. So, where is all that if this isn't going to be phased in until then? Where where's that traffic going? >> Well, using the >> Oh, I suppose he's Do I need one? >> No. >> You talking to that? You're good. >> So, I was just going to say you had mentioned that this stuff is getting phased in 2028, but the contractor behind us almost pretty much Not guaranteed, but we be developing in 2026 already. And I would think that'd be houses built and people moved in. So where's that traffic going on 14? And is that just going to they going to going to get dumped out at 114 for right now? And then a stop sign because >> that's a catchall there. >> Yep. Um so yeah, short of this project and this may not happen in 28 to be honest because again there's not funding. we are chasing different funding um sources to to try to bring the project forward, but yeah, it'll operate as is um until the time where there's funding and the opportunity to actually construct the improvements. >> Will Hamilton County fund any of this? >> Um they they have uh we will apply for funding through a program that they have to assist in the project costs. Um, as of now, they have not been uh open to entering a partnership on the project cost directly. So, what that is is they have a it's called the cost participation program where we can apply for up to a half a million dollars per project for assistance towards the improvements on their roadway. Um, I did confirm with them that they would allow us to look at each intersection as a separate project. So that could come up to $1.5 million, but it's also a pretty limited funding source. I think it's a $48.5 million or somewhere around just under $50 million for I think it's a three-year window. So it's not a significant amount of that's the whole county. >> And does the government, the federal government ever get involved in this? Um, we actually met with the, uh, Minnesota State Senate, the the bonding committee, um, two weeks ago to present this project along with a couple others to see if they would consider part of the bonding bill. Um, so a request was made. It was specific to Rush Creek Parkway just to kind of simplify and we can show the most need for that one. So that's why we targeted that one as the subject. Uh, but we did present to them. We're actually presenting to the House of Representative, same committee or same type of committee but in the House rather than the Senate tomorrow. So hopefully those go well. Um I think it was received pretty well. One of the senators, she's actually the head of the transportation committee as well, asked us to follow up and wants to discuss it more. So that thought that was a promising response at least. So hopefully that goes somewhere and that that would be a big piece of our our funding. >> Yeah. >> With that. So, >> what does it cost to put in a roundabout these days? >> Uh, it's all over the board. Like I said, we are really in the infancy, but we're we're probably thinking it, you know, just ballparking, maybe we're around 2 and a.5 million per intersection. Some will probably be more, some will probably be less. The whole thing might be more. Um, but yeah, we're we're thinking probably 7 to 8 million um for this project. And that's assuming limited improvements between the roundabouts. So, they're really just the intersections. Um, we are planning to go back to the county and see if they would like to expand any of the improvements to the segments between. I expect the answer will be no. But, >> and does you ask a question? Let's not talk to the mic just so little recording. >> Oh, I'm not loud enough. >> No, you're loud enough. Just [laughter] just general. >> Does the meth council get involved in this in any way? >> No. No. >> Good. I wanted to direct this question towards you planners on the 114. We went to a meeting once upon a time back uh less than a year ago and kind of made a joke about this coming in and basically coming up to a driveway and oh it might block this lady's driveway and she'd have to come up to 170 to turn around and that just wasn't acceptable. So we're really hoping you planners will consider that. >> Yeah. [laughter] on on that note and we we heard that and definitely looked at it and we've done some research and the the we're we're confident that can be accommodated. Um what's often done or we found many other places at least is the the raised concrete median. It's it's simply just cut down to allow access for those driveways. So yeah. Um so that that's what we would anticipate at least. We'll we'll know more when we get into the design. >> What's the proposed speed drive? >> It it'd be the same. That's a little bit of a separate um I guess on that that note I I will share the county did collect some data for us both on traffic data just turning movements at the intersections also did a speed study on there. [clears throat] So most folks aren't aware they think the city or others can just pick speed limits. That's not the case. Um we have to do a study and record data and then the speed limit is determined based on what people drive. So backwards of what you think it should be or many think it should be. Um they did a speed study and the average speed is actually above the speed limit which is probably not a surprise really >> which means that means they can jack up the speed limit >> which means it actually could if there was a request put in that could lead to there's a little more to it than I'm neighborhood in St. Paul that reduced 35 to 45 miles an hour >> 45 to 35 >> on 35 that neighborhood in St. fall got to drop the federal highway speed down. That's a good question. How do we be that neighborhood? >> I agree there. >> I had a [clears throat] project in Lonsdale, a roundabout that's going to get constructed next year, and the city was able to pass legislation that a section of the road could be reduced. But like it's one of those like they skirted the process like they did a whole thing you know and they went through this whole legislative thing to be able to do that which in the end it was kind of like we're putting in a roundabout and you just lowered the speed on the leaving the roundabout for the short I mean it was kind of a poor planning thing but I had a project up in district one where it's 55 it's entering a low speed spot and we wanted to like can we start the 30 mph before this curve instead instead of after it. And it was that whole story of like, no, we can't do that because you have to do this and you have to do like you have to do all of this stuff because they just that's just how the laws are set up. But sometimes you can do things like this is where as the geometric person, you can do things with your geometry to force people to slow down because they're just not comfortable. So, it's like, well, technically it's still that fast and you can, but I can make it so that it's that's like as you add curbs and you add things, it feels different and then people slow down. So, that's part of that's a big part of when you do a roundabout is that you have this zone where people you make it uncomfortable for them to be going fast and you put up like the green part in the middle. You make sure that's high enough so there's that visual barrier. So, it's it's kind of like you change the environment that they're in and then it helps people to slow down by the spacing that you have that will help overall because if you figure that people are going to well they'll leave the roundabout well now they'll speed up and slow down. Well, they're going to get faster but they're less likely to like hammer it and get going 60 65 you know especially once they're like okay well I'm going to have to slow down again pretty soon. So you do get that advantage and that might be something where like okay well if it gets constructed then maybe down the road you can see and do that traffic study but it's that gamble because if you spend the money and you do the traffic study and go through the whole thing and like you say you don't get the answer that you want. You can't be like just kidding we didn't really do it like once you do the study the study >> really mean it. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Oh, >> grab the mic. >> I don't want anybody to yell at me for >> No, I'm not yelling at anybody. >> You got to be able to hear me, right? >> Y couple of things. First thing, because we're on the speed limit thing, um we've had that discussion about how they set speed limits on roads. And to me, it seems the the most archaic thing I've ever heard of in my life. And it makes absolutely no sense if if your speed limit on the road doesn't take any any into any consideration. The condition of the road, the sight lines on the road, the entrances and exits off from the road, then setting speed limits based on people's driving patterns is got to be the dumbest thing, just to be blunt, that I've ever heard of in my life. And Jason's heard me say this before. We've had this conversation. I can't believe that we've relegated the safety of our roads and the speed limits on our roads to the people that are actually driving on our roads and the people that are making them unsafe by driving faster are somehow contributing to the raising of the speed limits on our roads. That makes no sense to me at all. When you go by a school, you have signs that tell you to slow down for the school. And if there's kids out there, you even go slower because there's kids out there. If you take those signs away, people are going to drive through there without slowing down for those kids. There's a reason you put those signs up to slow people down. There's a reason you put up signs at intersections to slow people down. There's a reason you do that at corners to slow people down cuz people don't have enough common sense to drive rational. We all know that. Anybody that's ever driven on our roads knows that. So, that part makes no sense to me at all. and and you can ex you can tell me the rationale that they're using, but to me it's just stupid. >> The other the other thing that I wanted to bring up before it I lose my train of thought on it is the location of these roundabouts that you're theoretically going to put in the one for for 113th realignment to 114th. I see, you know, some dotted lines on some of those maps. It actually shows that intersection taking away property from the adjacent property owners on the east side of Fernbrook Lane. I don't understand why that's that why you would even consider doing that. The only reason that you're having to put a roundabout or theoretically having to put a roundabout on 113th is because the developer across the street is cramming hundreds and hundreds of homes and adding a tremendous amount of traffic to the current roads that are there. Why would anybody on the east side of 113th or any of the existing homeowners there have to give up one inch of property when he's got that whole open field if he wants a round out there and we he's already committed to paying for it or at least paying for part of it anyway. Put it on his property. Why does it have to encroach on somebody else? I don't understand that at all. I would be thoroughly against that at any step of our our planning here. >> Sure. I'll take that. >> Can I respond quickly on the geometry aspect? >> Yeah, that's address your question, Keith, because it's important. >> So, like Jason said, you know, these are very preliminary. I didn't do these, but there's a certain amount of you generally kind of start with it right in the middle of the intersection and then you adapt based on what's going on. When I look at that one at 114th, if I was to take that center circle and shift it to the side, shift it far enough this direction to not impact these two properties, you're going to wipe out a bunch of these houses to make it happen. Cuz the only way to do No, you will. You will >> because what will happen is that this road now has to be realigned to come into that roundabout. So as much as possible, ideally every time we put in a roundabout, the center is on the center of the intersection. That's usually the best way we can do it. Everybody gets a little bit of pain, but it tends to be cheaper because you stay on the existing alignment. Like when we asked about cost, that becomes a big cost. The more you shift off of the existing roadway, you now have to build an entire roadway where if you're on the existing, you can salvage a bunch of it. I mean, it's just it's more expensive to go put a new road out in the middle, you know, out here than it is to keep it on there. So, that's one thing is that every time you shift, it doesn't make it go away. It just shifts the burden to somebody else. And that's part of our intent with this discussion is to be able to one have everybody understand that, but also to be able to say, you know, you're the one who lives right there close. Tell us more about what you have going on so that we can understand. And so when I go back and I'm trying to draw this in and try to balance, I don't want to take your house. I don't want to wreck your driveway. I don't want to take away access. Like I don't want to do any of that if at all possible. So I have to try to balance what impacts can I do. And it's going to be easier to push into a field than it is to push into a residence. But I can only go so far. >> So that's, you know, I mean, it's it's trading and balancing. And part of it is they're bigger. I mean, it just takes up more space, so it can't fit into that existing rightway as it stands right now either. >> Hannipan County did that. They did that on 101 and Territorial Road over by the freeway in Southwest Dayton. The whole roundabout is switched to the west. They didn't take any property to the east of the road. So, you it can be done cuz like you just said, that one's a mini. So it's not >> functions completely differently cuz on a mini you can drive over the whole thing and it's a lot smaller and a mini roundabout would >> you'd be able to put in like in an urban intersection where you have curbs everywhere. A mini roundabout you basically put into those existing intersections and it more it's almost like fancy striping. I mean it basically is just to get everybody to act that way but you don't have the I mean that's not a high it's can't be a high-speed scenario if it's a mini that's for certain. And it has to be all low speeds. And if this is 55 m an hour, I mean, if it was a mindot roundabout, you're going to have 300 ft medians going out, 200 to 300t approaches going out just to slow people down. >> I don't know if anybody's noticed or not, but from Maple Grove and 81 to 114th in Dayton, it the speed limit is 40. >> 40. >> It's 40. It's signed 40. They do not go 55 miles an hour in Dayton until they're supposed to until they get to 114th. >> That's where the first 55 sign is now since they realigned the road. Right. True. >> I don't know [clears throat] tons of detail about the speed limit stuff. >> Of 114. The speed limit should be 40 miles an hour >> on the south side of 114 is what you're saying correct. >> Northbound north. >> It's 40 on both ends of >> north or southbound. >> Yeah. North or southbound, but south of 114, >> right? >> Not right. >> That's 40, she said. [clears throat] >> Yep. >> Good. >> So, next time you guys drive from town 81 >> through through that new horrendous road that they grow for you. >> Yeah. >> It's 40. Yeah, it's 40 all the way down through the four-way stop until 114. >> Do you know Jason is like roadway classification factor into the speeds? >> Um, it can. So, and that's actually one of the exceptions where you can lower the speed which we did on territorial a handful of year well a couple handfuls maybe. Um, off of 81 we were able to go from 45 to 35 and that was based on a rural residential classification. So there are some exceptions, >> very few and far between. And that was only done because we could demonstrate the access density met the requirements. In other words, there's >> few enough driveways that we could take a section of the road and drop the speed limit without having to conduct a study. >> So So you're you're saying that they actually look at the driveways, the access or the >> for our claim to stay within state statute. We were able to do that for a segment. It was a very defined segment, >> right? Because from the southern edge of Dayton on Fernbrook Lane all the way around to to Pine View on the top of the hill over here, there's over 60 >> streets, driveways, entrances, and access points along that road along with being horrible sight lines in probably 60% of it. >> And this one has a different designation, so it doesn't apply to have the rural residential. Again, that's a very specific one. Um, we were able to go from 45 to to 35. This is a the major collector so it meets different classifications and we're not able to use that that >> but they've already lowered the speed limit on the Champlain end when you come out of it. Yeah. No out of Champlin when you come out of Champlain on 121. The speed limit is 40 m an hour all the way until you're almost to the bottom of the hill at Pine View. >> Okay. >> And then it jumps to 55. That never used to be 40 m an hour in there. >> Okay. that was always 55 all the way into Champlain within two blocks of of Dayton River Road. >> Okay. >> Somehow that got lowered. So, how how did Dayton get that lowered or did we just blindly luck out and Champlain did it for us? Um cuz we did work with Champlain to do a study along uh River Road quite some time ago and it was opted to not do it. we got the speed data and we realized it probably would have gone up so we decided not to move forward with it. Um there was one redone more recently and there was some adjustments made on River Road as well but but but again that's the speed study. There's a bunch of residents right there too on >> Can I lower it? >> I don't know these roads as well as you guys obviously. Um, for the area that you're talking about, you know, this stretch kind of enchantled and stuff, were there were there construction projects and things that changed the road? Because to me, I mean, I don't know because like if this stretch of road has been 55 and it's, you know, >> very similar to what >> and it hasn't really changed for a very long time, that's where I think it's going to be like if you have projects that add more things and, you know, if the situation changes, that's going to be more of when you would have that opportunity to be like, okay, now we have more driveways, now we have a different scenario. So then you might be able to look at it and figure out if there's a reason that you know the driveway density is now close enough or you know that it changes kind of what that situation is. But if your road hasn't changed and it's serving a large volume of vehicles, they're not going to be like we're just going to slow it down. Okay, but you're still going to have the same number of cars. And I think part of the concern if you just decide you want it slower, people already are driving faster. So if you put a you say now it's 40 miles an hour. Are people going to drive 40 just because you put that sign up there? >> But I mean but I think those are the parts. So I don't think it's that anybody I think >> what's unfortunate is the city and as the engineers we don't have the ability to just say I want to make this slower. So we can use certain tools to try to help that to try to influence driver behavior, change that environment, you know, put in roundabouts. Like there are things we can do to help that situation. But whether we agree with it or not, I don't have the ability to just do the project and go and say it's 40 now. Like I can't I >> One thing that I I think has helped is that >> it one sorry not that you're not loud enough. I just want to make sure the people that are when we when we send this out to you guys for the YouTube thing like we did before I think a few of you mentioned it that we can all hear what your question is. >> So the I don't remember the cross street the the Rush Creek one there um that switched to the four-way stop right recently >> and I have seen significantly lower speeds in directly in front of my house. I live across from Dean's the restaurant. So I I I'm going to ask a question that's probably oversimplified and I understand. Why don't we just stick four-way stops at the other ones and make it really annoying to come through here to right to slow it down artificially? Even though technically speedless 55, if we could save $6 million in 3 years worth of construction and over the weekend pay the road crew to put up four-way stop signs and put the little blinking lights for a month. >> Yeah. >> I >> Yeah. And and that would be the county's call on that. Um they they did it was actually a county project to put the stop signs in there. It was kind. >> How did that get initiated? >> Um, our request that the intersection was failing and it wasn't operating correctly. What's that? >> Yeah. Said enough of their request of us continue. >> So, we can do that again. >> Uh, we can, but to be honest, they use some equations and they look at the data to see if it's justified to put the those in and it would not be on the other intersection. We can certainly put the request in. I just expect it would be a very abrupt no. I think the Yeah, the question could be posed, dear. We could pose the question. Doesn't mean we won't get a no answer, but >> we could try. >> Do they do they factor in accident rates on this road? Because >> there are constant rear endings as people are sitting at zero miles hour waiting to turn left at one of the 67 access points along it. I mean, is that >> that's a major component of it. Yeah. Um for the funding as well. Um uh yeah, that's that's looked at highly for for funding and the the improvements themselves. >> There is not as many rear endings as you probably think. We did pull data from 202 not reported >> at least not reported ones. There are >> um we did pull data from 2023. Is it 23 Jason 22 to 2025 for police data that we have? There's numerous um off the road, you know, where somebody veered off the road or hit something off the road, but there is like three accidents on [clears throat] vehicles. Um that's it that's been reported. So, if there's lots more four of them, we love to hear about them because >> the number of times I sweep up tail light plastic in my driveway would argue that that is significantly more than three. >> It probably is, [laughter] but there's only >> They don't want to pay the insurance. >> I get we only get what's reported and filed. >> So, enough to the police department. I can throw up a trail cam and I'll just start collecting data if that's helpful, which that's more helpful than what we have currently. >> Call the police every time it happens because they need the police need to know. >> That's that is part of the report is trying to get the funding sources, hey, we have problems and issues here. There's accidents and then when we pull the data, it says >> you've had, I don't know, three of these and five of these in the last three years. And the shortage is going to go, that's nothing. So, >> but we want the roundabouts cuz it keeps the traffic flowing. If we have stop signs, you imagine trying to get out of one of our driveways if there's stop signs. How long of a road to >> even since Maple Grove cuz what's interesting is Maple Grove originally said that that piece of Fernbrook to 81 was going to stay and then suddenly it disappeared and that's how that one person ended up with a 4,000 foot long driveway. >> Yeah. Did you see that start? >> I did. Yeah. And I know that's Maple Grove so I understand. But that [laughter] has happened though is that now I don't know if you guys have noticed, but if you try to go to work at about 8:00, [clears throat] >> it's backed up from 81 all the way back to the four-way stop >> because they took out one of the intersections. So like I don't quite understand how >> that all happened and now they just sort of said, "Well, sucks for you guys >> when they took out an intersection." So >> you want to go into that or I wish I had an answer for it. I I don't. people does not care about I understand that isn't you guys I get it's a separate city but it's rather convenient that that line >> what's the intersection type at where the line starts >> where what line I apologize >> the back stop >> Rush Creek >> yeah so it goes from right the four-way stop there >> territorial road >> all the way through one roundabout and then to the stop light at 81 >> I do know that they had to remove one leg of Fernbrook in order for them to connect up to Maple Grove Parkway. So, the county would not allow two four-way intersections on County Road 81 that close together. So, Maple Grove had to make a decision of which one are they going to turn into because they've always had a three-legged intersection at Maple Grove Parkway. >> They've always had one a four-legged intersection at Fernbrook. >> Yes. Fern Brook. >> And so, people would always think, I'm going to call it the Z motion to get to Maple Grove Parkway if they ever wanted to. So when they made the connection to Fernbrook and said we're going to go directly to Maple Grove Parkway, Maple Grove had to make a decision of what section of the other Fernbrook are they going to cut off, the south side or the north side. And they decided the north side. I don't know who decided that. Wasn't me. Somebody decided the north side and that's why that was removed. >> They also didn't put a designated right turn to go from South Vern to West 81. So everyone going to 94 sits waits to try to get to turn right which is just asinine. again. >> And there might be reasons. >> Yeah, >> there might I mean >> I'm sure someone's got a reason somewhere >> and there could be things of like >> but that's why the one I know that's why the one intersection was closed cuz the county made the determination you had to close one or >> that's going to be a safety issue on 81 that they're going to say we can't have access is too close together. You know, they're going to limit the number of times that you can access and how all of that works. Um I mean there can be so many things that cause it of like well is there space is there right away you know and whatever it is or it might be something where you know how much of the day is it an issue I mean you can look at some projects or um I worked on a corridor study up by Hinkley and if you're there on those heavy travel days of you know Friday night going north and by Toby's and it's a mess. >> Yeah. And then on Sunday it's a mess. But it's like, okay, for this many months of the year, four hours on this day and four hours on this day, it's a mess. Okay. Well, how much money do you put into redoing all, you know, for this small window? So, sometimes that stuff happens and it might just have to hit some magical threshold. I don't know. That's where the traffic folks come in. I just let them tell me tell me where you need lanes and where they got to go and things like that. doing roundabouts at these intersections like you mentioned um you know access for your driveways and things. The other thing that roundabouts definitely help. It does allow that through traffic to keep going where if you just have like right now I would imagine if you're on 114th and you want to take a left at the end of the day you probably sit there a heck of a long time waiting to get out. Putting in those roundabouts do help those other people. They help you get a chance to turn. >> I disagree. >> You don't think they help? >> What's happened since you put the mic? I'm sorry. We get the mic. We'll get the mic to you. >> You'll be You'll be able to hear >> the mic's not for me. It's [laughter] >> watching this later on. >> The little people in back. >> What's What's happened since this uh roundabout went in at Pine View is the traffic on 121 in the morning southbound in front of my house is spaced out so such that you can't get out. And what I see is the roundabouts are just spacing traffic. >> Uh they make it tougher to get out. I mean, there's times I'm sitting there 6 8 minutes waiting to get out of my driveway. >> And I would I would say rather than sit at your desk and design these, you should maybe I'd invite you to come out and look at what's what the roads are like, >> but at the intersection. I'm saying at the intersection. Driveways is hard. There's only so much we can ever do at a driveway, >> right? But the reason the driveways are like that is because of the spacing in the cars. the cars slowed down to go round around the roundabouts, which is not I mean I I like them. The the roundabout or that should have been a roundabout at Brush Creek and and pretty much everybody knows it except the people that designed it and built it, but I'm sorry. Um it's terrible. I mean, right now you got both right turn lanes closed down and stuff there. But um my feeling, I guess one comment I'd like to get out nicely is is I think you should come out and see what these roads look like after you engineer them. Because if you're coming northbound across 81 on Maple Grove Parkway, the road doesn't even line up, but the north the other side is the side of the road. You know, the paint stripes are over a half a car width and it's just like nobody thought this all the way through. >> Oh, yeah. I drive I drive on the shoulder to put my fire tracks on there cuz I want them to see that people >> No, I know it. But it's like we got a lot of people planning and and building and doing things, but nobody's talking to each other here. Um the the traffic is getting worse and I I haven't you know we've talked a little bit about the speed limits that you can't do anything but but the city is telling us that this traffic is going to triple by the time DCM farms gets done. It's going to be over 15 or yeah over 15,000 cars a day and last I heard it's like at 51 5500 something like that. I'm not hearing any plans for expanding how to handle more traffic. We're just going to slow some of it down by putting in roundabouts and the people that live here are not going to be able to get out on their roads. Um, I again I'd invite you to come out and drive these roads at SE 7:15 to 7:45 on Fernbrook a few times and see what it's like. It's it's and going home the northbound side is just as bad at 4:15 or whatever. So, >> so am I am I hearing but you think roundabouts are actually detrimental to the >> No, no. Well, I I what roundabouts are if you had the right amount of traffic, I think a roundabout's a great idea, but the fact is you're going to pack you're going to triple the traffic on this road right now and it's still going to be a two-lane highway. Um, >> we don't have control of the traffic, unfortunately. >> Well, no, but somewhere it seems like we do because everybody's taking the study. We're going to put 15,000 cars a day on here and we're not building the infrastructure to support it. >> That's the bingo. The infrastructure. >> Yeah. That's not the city developing. That's a lot. >> But so don't kick the can to somebody else. Say, "Let's fix it." >> But I mean, this this is a step in that direction. That's >> Yeah. I don't I'm not so sure. >> No. >> I mean, I'm not seeing that this is going to make my life a little bit better. >> Okay. >> Um I hope you can do something, but I'm not as optimistic as I was when I came in the door. fact. >> Well, if we're going to have roundabouts here, my recommendation is that there's pedestrian signs or lights that go up so that people know when they're going to go around that they have to watch for pedestrians because when they put, you know, that when they did that thing on Rush Creek there, there was there's people crossing that intersection with baby buggies. And there is no pedestrian sign, nothing. And so my recommendation is that when you do put uh any stop sign or you do put any roundabouts in that you make sure that you're thinking about the pedestrians that are going to walk across and none of that. I don't see any of that done. And the other thing I just wanted to go off of Lee and say I think that Dayton has lacked the infrastructure for all of the building. I mean, yeah, we'll build till we can't build anymore, but where are all the other roads that are going to take care of the thousand cars that are coming? It's the infrastructure. And I think the planning committee needs to do something about that. >> Sure. Um I I will share just on the the pedestrian facilities. Um we have requested them here continuously. Same with Pine View. Um we have not been allowed to put signage or lights. >> But requesting them doesn't make it happen. Something has to be a little more forceful. I mean, in my opinion, because people cross these intersections and there's people driving there, they don't know that there's people that are can cross there. And I think it has to be a little more forceful than saying we've tried. >> Well, I mean, it's also probably an $80,000 improvement that the county would come and remove. So, I would >> well for their jurisdiction >> for the $5,000 that you're getting for every 253 homes that are going into the DCM, take that and do something with that. >> Okay. >> What would you I I hear your guys's comments and questions. What would be your thoughts about So, this is not considered an improvement or anything to you guys cuz it's not infrastructure that's needed. What are your thoughts of infrastructure that's needed to make it any better? >> Well, I think there needs to be some kind of road that goes across the river other than the one in Champlain. And that was proposed many years ago in Dayton, >> decades ago. >> And they nixed it. And >> you're talking about a river crossing. >> Yeah. >> But Kathy, that's going to add more cars to the roads in Dayton. >> Well, it can alleviate some of them coming from Champlain. >> So, you're not talking about infrastructure here. in this area. You're talking about infrastructure includes this area. All over Dayton. >> Correct. So, if you want to include this area, what would you propose to be better? Make it a fourway to before before we had the Pine View Roundabout. >> Mhm. >> Are we okay without the mic here? >> Um, sorry. >> That's all right. Before we had the Pine View roundabout, in the morning, the cars would cluster up. There'd be 6, 8, 10 of them, and there then there'd be a space to get out. So I could turn out left or right from my driveway and could move up and down 121. With the the Pine View roundabout, the cars are spaced just enough so it's really hairy sometimes to get out. And I'm getting older. I shouldn't be getting braver. Um that that's just one of the realities. It the traffic congestion on 121 is getting worse. And you still have you still have 10,000 more cars a day that you're planning on adding within six years as I understand the numbers that have been coming out. >> And that's and that's what that's what I'm asking you. How do we fix that? >> You know, I >> besides putting up a practice [laughter] shot, it's going to sound like a cheap shot, and I don't mean it to, but I'd get some good, confident people designing these roads. >> How about a north south road through all the new developments that will handle car? >> The developer didn't want to give that up because that was proposed. At one time they were talking about rerouting 121 and so they would have room to make it eventually four lanes right through DCM farms where what is it name >> trailburn >> but instead the city decides oh we'll just let them build houses instead >> that was a that was that was a city council decision I want to make sure that's clear that's city council decision not a city staff decision so it was there was 00 foot corridor saved in the Brayburn Trails development. If you remember back for the preliminary plat that was approved back in 2022 or 2023, the city council gave us direction that said we do not want that roadway there. We do not want that connection there. Remove that 100 foot corridor that was reserved for that more houses. >> And put in more houses you got. Well, I don't know if it was more houses, but space them out. Give another culde-sac or whatever. It might have added like eight or nine houses or something like that. >> So that just want to make sure that's clear. And I hear you're I I asked a question because I want to make sure that we're not just we're trying to do our best here and focusing on this area, >> but obviously this is a not just your city. I mean the traffic goes everywhere. So we got to make sure it can still fun. So that's why I asked the question. >> So imagine what we think here city council says we're going to do this anyways. [clears throat] >> That's very that's very possible. Um it is and um that would be and we will provide you all the information so you guys are aware so you can come in and talk to your council members cuz you guys locked them. We don't I work for the city. Jason works for the city. John works for the city. And that's what we do. That's what we work for the city. We work for the city council. When you guys elect somebody, that's who we have to listen to. And so if if you're not happy with the city council discussion about whatever that may be, you need to go talk to your city council members or have it or be in the meetings because I know Marca and Keith are here often or [snorts] whatnot or reach out to them or Yeah, I mean that's we will keep everybody posted in this meeting along with everyone else along the corridor study and everything information. so that you guys are aware what's happening. >> Is Is this a spot, And I'm just asking, I I don't know, but is this a spot where a traffic light would space traffic out more, would stop traffic and let a gap get in there uh and make room, or is or is there an option to add an additional I hate to say it cuz I live there, but uh what about adding an additional lane? Uh handling more traffic if you're going to do that, but just just cramming more cars into a single lane northbound and single lane southbound just doesn't seem like it's doing anything. Um, I don't know if the improvements themselves are creating more traffic, but I understand your point of more going to the area. I mean, as far as a signal generally, yes, they'll >> I'm just asking if that's a consideration because, you know, we don't talk about signals much here. >> That was that was actually the original plan for this intersection was a signal, but the county is more supportive of the roundabout as well. They're a little bit easier to build prior to actual justification on it, >> right? uh because there's less less negative or less detriment to installing a roundabout pre-warrant if you will. So if there's not enough cars to justify it, you can install it without negative benefits. So I'm just, you know, I know it's not necessarily the same. I I grew up in North Minneapolis and there used to be a roundabout at uh where Lowry cross was 81. >> It was a round and they took that out and redid some other things, built the bridges and all that. I was just wondering and this is like 50 years ago. Uh, is there something to look at now? We can spare ourselves the agony of building a roundabout because like I said, the intersection at Rush Creek is it's just totally wrong. It shouldn't have been built like that in the first place. >> Uh, and I'm guessing we're not getting our money back on that deal. >> So, um, you know, we cut out the right turn lane so traffic backs up further. >> Uh, I don't know. I like I say, >> probably nice to plan, but I think we got to make it work. And and again, I'd like to see you guys come out and drive these roads a couple times in the morning and see what you think. >> Well, there's the road. >> We uh lights are most certainly possible. We we will sit there. >> So, they are significantly cheaper than a roundabout. >> Um it's much easier to put a street light in than it is to put a roundabout in. I know there'll be more lights, so that's not great for everybody who lives along the roadway. Um I know there is some lighting that is needed just to downcast on the roundabout to keep it bright based [clears throat] on that. But um if we can get a light and a it saves a lot of money, but it's also not our roadway. So unfortunately, what I know everyone hates the answer, but we can have all the money in the world and say, "Hey, we have this money for the roundabout. Put it in." They're going to go, >> "Yeah, we don't want it there." >> Part of what I fear right now, Zach, is is we're talking um like I say, two years ago, we had all these meetings about what we're going to do with 121. >> And in the end, the last meeting said, "Hey, it's a county road. We're not going to do anything." >> And now we Yeah. And now we're at this and and how does that happen? >> And again. >> Oh, you mean you mean at Rush Creek Parkway? >> Well, but this is when you were talking about rerouting with the X plan and up. >> Oh, that's with the with the council. We're talking >> in all these meetings with things we were going to do 121 and then just decided, well, that's not our problem really. It's just it's the county's problem. So, so here we are and I'm not talking to the county right now, am I? >> Nope. >> How come someone from the county isn't here? >> Um, not interested [laughter] on us. >> I'm guessing they weren't on the mailing list, right? >> Uh well, I think they're aware of this corridor study going on. They're aware of theformational meetings. I mean, they're not they're not aware of it. [clears throat] >> I don't understand why doesn't the county want lights and won't we want this even though they're more expensive and take longer to do >> uh traffic more >> lights take certain justifications. So, there's a lot of >> info that goes into it. >> Traffic volumes, turns, >> unfortunately, accidents, but Like it's a signal justification report like a separate document has to be done and you have to >> sat in my driveway and trying to get out. >> If we had if we had stop lights though, wouldn't that almost guarantee adequate? >> There's a lot to it. There's like 16 different warrants. >> Lots of questions about the light. >> You got the light. You do. >> If we had stop lights, wouldn't that help guarantee uh pedestrian safety crossing crossing particularly 121? I don't think we can guarantee pedestrian safety no matter what we do. >> Okay. But I I' I have actually stopped at the round of the Rwood at the Rush Creek before and had people drive around me on the right and almost run over a pedestrian that I stopped for. So I'm thinking if there was something >> I can do all kinds of things on the road, but I can't fix that person. >> Right. Right. >> Right. I mean let's make an effort. There's not even pedestrian crosswalk. There's nothing I can do for them. I do my best. >> Right. But there's there's not even a pedestrian crosswalk mark there. >> Then people shouldn't be crossing. >> There's sidewalk. >> I mean, I don't I don't know. >> You know, the intersection if you're going to work on this. >> You're talking about a different. >> No, I'm talking about we just initiated the study. So, she is just getting involved with [laughter] again. >> She didn't even do this. This is almost nothing. you were at a roundabout in a different spot. >> But >> my apolog and I'm not a a particular fan of stop lightss, but I I see a stoplight as making traffic stop so somebody can cross it. Spaces out traffic on 121. Um like I say, I don't I feel like I shouldn't even be talking as favorable about them as I am, but that might be a solution. uh a better solution than just keep traffic moving around a roundabout if pedestrians are trying to cross or uh because there are things people one of the selling points of Sundance Woods and uh the DCM farms is easy access to Elm Creek Park if you don't die getting there >> you know it shouldn't be like that and and anyway >> disagree I'm going to let somebody else do this for a minute >> I do want to address your question that you had about how many cars and whatever else needed to get a signal I think that was what your question was correct >> and then okay we want I don't. >> Yeah, it it you probably do more SJRs than I do. >> I don't do any because I Okay, I get [laughter] >> I let the traffic folks do those. >> So, it's it's a very exhaustive analysis of pedestrian use, traffic use, turning movements, accident history. There's a lot of information that goes into it and that is what is used to justify the project. So, it's it's literally if you get enough of the points scored or tallied up during the study, then the project would be considered by the jurisdiction uh that owns the roadway, which in this case is the county. They will not touch an intersection for a signal, at least in my experience, prior to those warrants being met for a signal. There's also a roundabout justification form. There's a little bit more leniency with that. Again, if you build if you have an intersection and you build a signal where it's not really needed, you might have people waiting for long periods of time where it's not warranted. It actually slows traffic. It makes it less efficient. >> If you put in a roundabout, it generally does not hinder the flow of traffic. Even if it's not really warranted, even if all of the cars are going through, there's not much of a downside to it. So there's more leniency with >> Well, think of how many times you've sat at a light and there's no cars and you're at you're looking at a red and there's nobody >> and how pissed off are you getting? My husband does this I hear all the time. How pissed off are you how long it is or why can't I go because no who's got a green and you're saying you know and people are getting fired up going >> but like what was the question again? Sorry. >> Can't they change the timing of flight? I mean, you can >> but you're going to get to it's 11:00 at night and you're coming through. I mean, it can have some variations, but you still can have that time that you show up and you're waiting and you can put loops in and you can do detection to help. [clears throat] I mean, you can do things to help that, but there's still going to be times where you pull up and you're like, [clears throat] what am I waiting for? You know, or something happened like that's going to happen no matter what. And I've seen I've been behind that car where we pull up and I've been sitting at a red light and then watched the car ahead of me just go when I almost start going cuz I'm like, "Oh, it's green." They're like, "Oh crap, it's not. It's still red." And they just got tired of waiting. >> In the situation that you just described with with low traffic and being frustrated that you're sitting there at a light. We all We all have experienced that. I don't know how you get rid of that completely. I don't think you can other than try to try to [laughter] >> computerize the lights so they know when cars are there and change them so you're not sitting there for 3 minutes when no one goes across in front of you. But the both of the the ideas that we're talking about here, roundabouts have their pluses and stop lights or stop signs have their pluses. Neither one of them fixes the whole problem here. at a roundabout. If you have major traffic on a major thoroughfare like 121 in the morning and in the afternoon for three in the morning and three hours in the morning and probably 3:00 in the afternoon, if you have a roundabout, the traffic coming from DCM or from Sundance or from us coming out of our driveways is not going to get helped by that roundabout. It just isn't. I've I remember 20 years ago the first time I ever sat at a roundabout was down in Mano and I think we had a we had I think one of you guys said that that was probably one of the first ones they ever put in the state. Two four-lane roads crossed and they put this huge roundabout in there that you could drive two semis through at a time but most of the traffic was the cross traffic. [clears throat] You could sit at that intersection for 10 flipping minutes during rush hour in Mano. couldn't get into that intersection because the main traffic going through the roundabout once they get into the roundabout those folks have the rightway and there's not enough spacing between each one of them for you to even get out. I see if you have a roundabout at at Rush Creek Parkway or if you have a roundabout at 113 that during those times that we're talking about when that traffic is so heavy on Fern Brook Lane or 121, those people ain't going to get out. They're not even going to get into that roundabout. They're going to sit there and sit there and sit there because no one on the thoroughfare going north or south on Furbrook Lane is going to let them in. >> They just tighten up the gap. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And you can't get in. You can part of the backup that you see coming from uh from Maple Grove that backs all the way up into Dayton is because of the roundabout at Territorial that they just put in. Go up there during rush hour and watch these poor people on Territorial trying to get out of there. and can't get out because the traffic is is heavy, heavy, heavy, and there's no openings between cars. Stop lights, I don't know if they're the end all the be all, but stop lights at least give you a chance at some point in the near future that you're going to be able to get through that intersection. Stop signs do the same thing. If there was a roundabout at Rush Creek Parkway, that traffic coming out of out of off Rush Creek to 121 in the mornings or the afternoons would have a prayer. they wouldn't be able to get they wouldn't be able to get out to go south or north. >> I'm going to guess you see less backups heading north on Fernbrook than you do south and that's likely because of the offset between a stop light and a roundabout. So if you had a roundabout at 81 and and Fern Brook Lane or Maple Grove Park or whatever you want to call it now because there's a there's a stop stop light there. So the problem is it stops traffic then it backs up through the roundabout all the way back to your stop sign that you see every day or we just the county just put in and then it's all of a sudden it's green. Then everyone's hammering on the gas because everyone's right bumper to bumper. So that's why no one on Territorial can get out. Don't disagree with me. One day. >> Why didn't they do a roundabout on 81? >> I would love to know that answer. That's a great question. Ask the county [laughter] >> because they know they don't work with high flow traffic. >> That's that's why it's hard to do offsets ones too. I know that's something that the county is trying to figure out too. And that's what we've asked and I've asked Stantech is what's better here? Is it a stoplight or a roundabout? Because they just did a stoplight roundabout on for Maple Grove Park. I don't know which one it called. One of the two. Pick one. And now, how does that function now? It doesn't function at all really. I mean, northbud you probably don't see as much cuz it stop sign and then you just go. But if we put stop light, stop light, stop light. Is that going to affect anything back on the roundabout there? I don't know. You might have the same problem headed north and then now everyone's backed up down to target. I don't know. But just things to think about like we're trying to do our best here and and we have not rolled out a stoplight. I want to make sure that's clear. So, um, we're we're all we're all in this together. We have no plans and this is why we're having this meeting is because it's important for all of us to have a little thoughts. I know that we got a couple of hands up and a couple of mics floating around. So, >> I'll let I'll let him go first. >> One quick thing I want to add just in the stoplight versus roundabout discussion. Um many of the roundabouts that I have designed and you know and are getting implemented are getting HSIP funding which is highway safety improvement program funds. One of the easiest ways not a great way but one of the easiest ways for like MINDOT to get that funding is cuz somebody dies. And we kind of joked, I mean, you can kind of joke and say that, but the reality is that at traffic signals, people don't want to wait to the left. They get tired of waiting. They go, and now you have those right angle collisions. I mean, like a rear end. People aren't dying usually when you get rear ended. May have lots of tail lights in your driveway, but people aren't getting injured in those same kinds of accident. So a lot of times roundabouts are getting put in because of that safety aspect that becomes a big thing and it's that total delay and it might be that you know what during really heavy traffic times we can try to do all kinds of things and whatever ends up going in we'll do our best and hopefully it is tolerable and it's the best thing we can do but there's a lot of hours of the day that that's not a backup from wherever that's going way back here. So part of what we're working towards is what's a solution that can be the best for the whole day because if a lot of the day you don't have those big backups, well, how much do you want your answer to be solely focused on fixing that backup during that 15minute window when maybe the rest of the day we can slow people down and we can make it safer and we can cover a lot of other issues. So, I think not to discount any one concern, but there's lots of concerns and we have to be able to balance all of those and try to get that answer, you know, that does its best at addressing multiple things. >> We just want to be able to get out of our driveway when we need to >> or within 10 minutes of that. >> Yeah. >> And we hear you. We hear you. Trust [laughter] me. We hear What I'm saying is it might be that if you put in a signal, you do a roundabout or you do an all hallway stop, if you could get warrants for every single thing, it doesn't necessarily mean that if you have really heavy volumes going on, >> you're going to get out. >> You may be screwed no matter what. It may just be a crappy time to get out of your driveway and there may be nothing that we can do about that. I don't know that answer. >> I have a >> I know you've got the mic, so go ahead. >> Real quick, a couple things. I just I know we're probably getting up towards time, but I want to put on the record. Half of us still have to cross the road to get our mail. I just want to make that that that's still a problem for everyone on the east side. We have to walk across the road at any point through there to get our mail. >> Um we all kind of joke that everyone speeds through there. I don't really understand why as a city we just sort of say, "Well, that sucks. We have a police department that I assume has radar guns and has pens and paper and can write tickets." I don't think I've seen very few, if ever, anyone get pulled over in that area. Every once in a while, but not very often. I don't understand why, if this is a well-known speeding area that people are breaking the law, why we wouldn't go and try to enforce some of that. Um, and then I guess my last point and might be relatively unpopular with my neighbors. At what point does Dayton say we can try to ease this as much as we can and spend all this money versus this is going to go to 15,000 cars a day in 6 years and just say maybe these houses shouldn't be here anymore. And as much as that hurts, is that really is doing all of this to try to do all these hoops really worth it for what Dayton's going to be in 20 years? >> Great question. >> I can kind of that last one um on that. Um this will almost certainly become a four-lane road in the future or at least that's the plans that the county has identified. That was part of the reason for the Dayton pushing for the realignment for for Dayton staff pushing for the realignment of it is to allow a wider access without having to acquire significant road right away from existing homes. >> I mean, you can't put a four-lane road there and not take my house out like >> there's going to be significant impact without a doubt. But I I do want to touch on that, you know, if these roundabouts are constructed, we would design and have them in mind that they could be utilized with an expanded roadway. We would most likely wait for the county to do the expansion project just because it would be very costly. It would probably require, you know, full buyouts and relocation costs of of property owners. the city, we can't even pay for our own roads. And we're trying to fix the county roads, you know, to to help you folks or to help, you know, to help the situation here. So, I mean, we're we're doing what we can with the limited funds. We are chasing dollars. Hopefully, some of those fall into place and we can make some improvements that have meaningful improvement or changes that have meaningful improvements along here. So, um, but it's not a throwaway cost is what I wanted to point out. It's not like this would be a band-aid that's wiped out if the road had to be expanded. it would still be utilized and have benefit. So, >> yeah, I will note one thing for the police department is that we do our best. Um, we only have two officers on at a time. Um, potentially three if we have a sergeant on. That's a split shift. They run into different shifts right now. They're doing some different things next year. They're trying to figure it out. So, hopefully we have three um on at most times, but right now we only have two on at a time. And so, we do traffic a lot. We do a lot more than we used to. Um, and we do do this area as well. So, specifically when the stop signs got put in, we did a lot more patrol down this area, but you'll be amazed at how far you can see in this area. Uh, if we can see you, you can see them. >> And that's why they hide in Dean's parking lot. >> They do Dean's parking lot or whatever to try to do our best to to catch speeders cuz typically if you catch a speeder or they see that uh an officer there, they'll slow down obviously right away just like everybody else does. >> But then they'll typically slow down for a certain period of time after that because they expect the officer to be there. And so we try to do and I'm going to say we do circle events around the city where we do different areas. Historic village is one of them that we do. >> Do you have empty cars that we can park? >> We do not. Um we have off um off duty cars on [laughter] staffing issues. I know they've done it right. >> We have duty cars. Yep. We have parking and leave it there so it looks like someone's there >> and then people start they can't start guessing. like sometimes there's a common, sometimes there's not. >> So, we have begun talks about that because we have enough vehicles in order to cover every officer while they're on. Right now, for a while, Dayton didn't have enough vehicles to cover officers. So, we'd have to be switching vehicles and then said it went off to repairs and then we're using that vehicle and then we're taking the chief's car and whatever else we next year we'll have enough vehicles for every officer. So, that way we will be able to have backup. So, that might be something we do um as a potential. If these are if these aren't county roads, why isn't Henipin County also supplying police officers? >> They spend their 1 hour um gosh, they're required to spend one hour a month or something in the city of Dayton. They don't care. >> Um they spend most of their time in downtown Minneapolis. >> Yeah. >> Or somewhere in those county roads down there. >> They are Henipin County. So yes. Are we are we putting more police officers on since we're getting more people moving into our community? >> Um we have slowly we have slowly increased the police force um over the last few years. Um next year like I said it's planned to have another officer on. So that will make a two officer minimum with a three officer most of the time. Um which means that we have at least one backup. So typically on a lot of calls we'll have two officers go. So like um I'll use an example like a domestic violence call. We have to have two officers on for safety and for safety of both us and them. Um and so because of that sometimes both of our cars are taken up on a one domestic violence. So that means we have no speeding taken. There's no speeding or anything else happening in Dayton for um an officer. Um next year's plan to have like I said a two minimum with a three car average so that we'd have three vehicles on at a time which hopefully will help provide more resources. Um, that's probably been the biggest area of I'm going to say success for city staff is be able to have more officers on. Over the last few years, I think we've hired >> um over the last three years since I've been administrator, I think we've hired five five or I think it's five uh if the next one gets next year's gets approved. So, that's been one thing that we've kept up on, which is good and or should say at least caught up on because we were so far behind for many many years on that aspect. Hopefully that helps and answers your question. Keith's got the mic, so >> Oh, I get it. You get it next. Take the queue. >> My perspective on this being I grew up in the city >> um and have lived in the area of Frontbrook and Elm Creek Road since the 60s, right? When my parents moved to this city. Um, the city fathers from way back when when I was a young man, which is a lot of years ago, had plans for the future development coming through Dayton. We talked about part of that already here tonight. Part of that was that there was a mainline road that went along the power line >> from the south end of the city to the north end of the city with that some point maybe that connecting >> the river >> to the river and over into Ramsey. And that all started back in from my perspective in the 70s when I became a young adult and I actually started paying a little bit of attention to that. That was on the books for a long time and I think you alluded to that here a while ago. Y >> and for some reason that got trashed that went through the planning commission. I remember old the old planning commission members that were my neighbors um telling me about that plan. One was Alan Dean, one was u uh Floyd Nelson and uh they were totally frustrated, especially Floyd, God rest his soul, was totally frustrated when he saw that the city moved away from that. So that was the only viable north south connection that they could see from, you know, from taking traffic from 121 and moving it through the newer developments in the city and on the north side. Well, that got trashed. There's no sense beating that dead horse. It's dead, right? That propertyy's gone now. They build houses on We let them build houses on that property. The next plan was that was floated out there was changing Fernbrook Lane at 113th, moving it west diagonally across where DCM Farms wants to build homes now behind most of these folks's houses. Yep. [snorts] >> And then making that connection across away from or west of Fernbrook Lane >> and then the on traffic would be other way would be Kitty Corner from the I'm I'm going to call it dead man's corner, whatever you want to call it, the 90° down to >> the interchange. Yep, you're correct. >> Right. I mean, either one of those plans would have been far superior in my mind than what we're looking at here today. But for whatever reason, city planners, whether it's planning commission, council, or all of the above, or maybe folks that work for the city at that time, decided that none of those plans were feasible. So, every time we moved away from those plans, we gave property back to developers so they could build more homes and make more money and cause us more chaos in the city. every home that gets built. And a lot of these people that move in here, great people, right? There's this isn't about them. It's about what we let developers do to our city. The only thing we have left now is gut the middle through the middle of Dayton at some point in our future and make 121 a four-lane road because we've taken away all of the other >> all all the other options. We've taken them off the table. So now we're right back to where we were before. And if we if we had done nothing, if we had done no planning, all those people did all that hard work back in those days. If we had done nothing, we'd be right at where we are here now. So, I think we've made a horrible mistake and we've left ourselves with a big pile to fix. And I'm glad I'm not you guys because I don't know how you fix this. I really don't. outside of putting a roadblock up and keeping people from, you know, from the southern end of the city from cutting through to, you know, to get across the river in Ramsay, there's just too much traffic on that road. We all know that that road can't sustain that kind of traffic. We all know it's not safe, [cough] [clears throat] the intersection at Rush Creek Parkway, you know, with by putting the stop signs up there. I mean, I'm got to assume that that was a tremendous with a tremendous help and push from Commissioner Anderson and Henipin County to make that happen because once when they first put those those those signs or before they put those signs up, there were people that were going west on Elm Creek Road and they wanted to go south on Fernbrook Lane. They had the the median in there and the left turns and the right turn lanes and stuff in there. People were making left turns off from Elm Creek Road and driving down >> the wrong side of the median >> on head head-on traffic going south and two weeks after one of our counselors and myself had a meeting with Kevin Anderson, Commissioner Anderson about that, they had a sign up there that says do not enter. Now, I don't know, you know, whether people listen to signs or not, at least it's another flash up there that hey, you're dummy. You're going the wrong way. kind of like going down a freeway ramp the wrong way. You see them everywhere. Within two weeks, that sign was up there. And then now they rearranged the whole intersection with the stop signs. And I don't have a problem with the stop signs cuz at least I can get from my house over to our farm at Elm Creek Road without half dying. At least you go up that intersection, you know, you can turn left. You know, you can go up there and you can get back out from because everybody stops and everybody takes their turn. Well, we've got a heck of a mess here. And I don't know that the solution is to just throw our hands up in the air and say, "Well, at some point we're just going to blow all the homes out along Fern Brook Lane." There's a lot of people that live along there. Most of those folks that live along that road, at least most of those homes have been there most of my life. There hasn't been this huge boom of homes being built along Fernbrook. Those houses have been there since 50s, 60s, 70s. And I think your point is take I mean that's why we're here talking to you guys tonight is because we know there's an issue and we know there's a problem and we hear you guys and we hear the folks on Furbrook that complain about it each and every day and live it and see it and I've been I've driven this area in that time frame and I hate it as much as you guys do and I don't live there. Um but you know that's why we're here. That's why we're talking about it. We're not sitting back and kicking the can and saying hey we're just waiting for something to happen around here. Um I don't disagree with anything that you said about pre-planning. I mean, we didn't do any planning, we'd be right here where we started off today. So, I don't disagree with that. And I think there's a lot of been a lot of city staff time that would agree with your points, Keith, that say that we should have done something. And there has been many, many numerous city staff that have said the same thing. And city council and the planning commission have said no. So, that's where we have to sit today. And but because of those decisions, we have to make decisions now. And we have to make things that go forward so that we don't end up 20 years down the road looking back and going, "We didn't do anything here. Look at this. Now we got nothing. So that's my goal and that's Jason's goal and you know John's goal here and city staff is to make good decisions that we can look back on and say that was good planning. Um versus saying 20 years from now saying why did we take away that to put more homes in cuz I'll be the first one to tell you that I agree with you. So um Lee has a the mic and then yes I know you have a question. So >> I'm kind of with her. >> Okay. Thank you. Oh, yeah. Thank you. As long as you've signed in and everything, that's all we need to contact it for. >> That's great. Thank you very much. Yep. >> Okay. I I know. Um >> we're just we're brainstorming. It's maybe a bad idea. It might be really great idea, but but at least an idea. What if what would happen right now if if at least until this DCM project is is laid out more what if we just did nothing for a while and just said, you know, we got to [clears throat] wait and see what happens because we built the wrong intersection here at at Rush Creek. The territorial roundabout was the wrong roundabout. >> Be easy with the Wii on that one. >> Well, I know. Well, we because I think my dollars are in there somewhere and I'm not getting that over there somewhere. So, but I mean, what if we uh I'm not saying just totally freeze, but and idle engineers can be a problem. I know that from working with them. Um, but what if we didn't do anything until we know for sure what the real problems are? Like I say, I think this Pine View roundabout has created as many problems as it solved. I think the four-way stop sign at at Rush Creek has helped a lot more than the >> existing one. Although, do I I do miss the right turn lanes. Um, and and it's just an idea. I'm not trying to advocate for the position, but I'm saying what if what if we didn't do anything right away except sit and collect some data, which I hate doing, but you know, just see what's happening. Uh see where the trend is going right now. See where all these cars are and look at there's got to be other alternatives to get the cars out of this uh Rayurn Hills and DCM safely without having to come through my front yard practically. So, >> well, what's your plan for that? >> Well, that's it. But what I'm saying is if we don't do anything for a year or two even, I don't know that it's going to get much worse except there's going to be more traffic. It's still going to be space bad. It's still going to take me 8 to 10 minutes to get out of my driveway sometimes. And sometimes I won't be able to make a left turn to come to city hall town city council meetings. So that could be a good thing for you guys. But >> love to see it, >> you know. Yeah. You're lying through. [laughter] >> You get to enjoy the fun like I do. >> Okay. >> But you know what? What if we took our time on this? Maybe is what I'm saying. I'm not saying we don't do anything, but >> um rather than do it wrong and spend $8 million to do this, what if we wait and see what's going to happen? Like at 114th, maybe that's going to be something totally different. >> Um so it's just a thought. Like I say, I'm not advocating for it. I'm just throwing a brainstorming idea out there. So >> that's great. >> I'll try to be quiet. >> At this point, the only thing we've guaranteed and are doing is a corridor study on this area. So that's the only thing we've guaranteed and are actually doing is a corridor study. That's it. >> How much is that costing us? >> Um I don't remember the last 40 40 something 46,000. >> Denn Dennis keeps saying that these 40 all these studies seem to cost $40,000. >> It's about how much time they take. And this one is being paid for by the developers contributions from brain trail. So it's not tax dollars that are going towards it. And we feel like it's the right thing to do at least get a study done whether that's with traffic counts or with information whether it's do nothing. That might be an answer. I don't know. Well, I hope it's not, but I hope we don't do the wrong thing. >> I'm not saying it's forever an answer, but what I'm saying is maybe it's the answer we slow down. Um, like I said, the nearest thing would be 2028. And the reason why we're looking at 2028 um for timing wise is because there is a project that's planned for at the bottom of the hill south of Fresh Creek Parkway. >> Oh, um in Maple Road for the connection point and the legacy project of Three Earth Park District to put a trail underneath the roadway. So, a grade separated trail. And so because of that, their plan is to do that in 2028 when they reconstruct the bridge on that same area. So they're reconstructing that bridge at the bottom and doing the um grade separated connection point. And so because that's going to be in 2020, they're already going to shut down the roadway. So our thought is, can we do this project as well in 2028? So we're only shutting down the roadway one time, >> not four times or three times or two times. Um, try to try to li try to minimize it cuz it's going to be a disruption guaranteed and it's going to suck. I mean, I know when they shut it down for a while there, it sucked. I'm sure it did. We're trying to minimize. >> Rather nice. >> Maybe it was great for you guys. >> We can shut it down for another couple years if you want. >> Yeah. >> I have a quick question tied to yours and it's kind of for you guys. Paulie, you you guys know more on this development parts than me. this connection. I know that my understanding is that this development is like multiple phases and everything, right? Do you guys have an idea of like when there when that connection is supposed to happen? Cuz that's one thing if if you say, "Okay, we're going to wait and do nothing." >> Probably at some point this road is going to get built to here. >> They're moving dirt. >> Oh, yeah. >> But like at some point this road is going to connect. So there's a window of time to >> build a year. >> They're there subcutting for the road, but there's not plans to construct it yet, >> right? >> But they are triggered second edition. >> I think it's second >> with the second edition. It's a trigger to it. Another one is if they were to develop anything within this triangle, it would have have to happen at that time. Um I suppose there could be modifications. Um if there was reasons to delay, okay, we're not going to develop that area right now. Y >> that would just say >> you know Thomas Tom has even been agreeable to some of that you know >> what's that >> hasn't it already been said >> no >> this this is an outlot so this triangle is an outlet so there's nothing there >> right >> okay >> no there's nothing approved or >> is that the commercial part >> I but the rest of it has been approved >> um the first edition so the first half of the homes has been approved >> um it is planned that they're going to do a second edition you know when >> 26 >> soon >> okay so the second edition will the rest of the homes, >> right? >> Not the triangle, >> right? >> So, the second addition would be the homes, which means that we have to do something here. Again, doesn't have to be a roundabout necessarily, right? >> But the connection has to be made and then we have to have some sort of safe access, whether that's stop signs again or a stop light or so, I don't know. >> But the location of that, >> the location of that has >> the location gets determined with that process. So, that's where if it thinks it wants to be a roundabout, then you can adjust your placement. So where that it's like you have to reserve space, right? >> Right. But I but what what I don't know if everybody else is, but what I feel like is we're we're putting this in first and then we're going to kind of go work from there. Um >> I think it's working together. I'm just >> right. >> We have roundabouts drawn. So that's where I'm just >> like >> just at a high level when they're laying out those properties and the parcels and things like that. I understand the notion of like, well, let's just wait and see. I'm just highlighting the fact that there's a part of this that if you say let's just wait and see you put in a road now if you want to change it like once the rideaways there and all of those things it becomes much more expensive later on to make those changes was talking about with when they were looking at running rerouting 121 up along the power lines you know we had a plan to do that and we didn't do it >> and now it's going to cost us a ton of money if we want to do that so >> and I had a bunch of hopes Yeah, [laughter] just come the same way. >> Well, I'm just saying that as you know, you guys are saying, there is a timetable out there. It may have a little bit of variancy to it, but there's a timetable with that development. So, the wait and see. >> There's a window. I mean, you can't wait until the whole development's done and then say, "No, >> yeah, we should put in a roundabout." Like, you may have missed the chance to not have those. That's all I'm just >> You got a question? >> Somebody's got a question up here. It's both of us have the basically the same question and it's the roundabout on 114th and this is Sue is has the end house. You have the house there. Yeah. >> Okay. Now my question with her is >> you got one traffic come out here and run about and one go this way. This going to be lots and lots car coming out front to my house and going down to 114. Why don't they make this road go up to the restaurant there and go out that way >> instead coming out this way go this way then it's no trouble coming out here then it's no reason you put a wrong here why realign >> we're realigning the road >> see this is going to be more car coming out lots of house here >> so I apologize it's going to be I'll go >> question why why do the 114th here why not just leave it 113. That's what her general question. That's your general question, S. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So, kind of two thoughts behind this. So, then as you are all attesting with I can't get out of my driveway and it's hard to access the road. The more points of access you have, the more points of conflict there are, the poorer it usually operates and your safety uh goes down just with so access density we call it. We try to minimize the number of connection points or location where there's intersections. We have a four-way intersection here and a four-way intersection at 117th. These are three-legged intersections. Realigning, get my bearings here. Realigning 113 to 114th eliminates an intersection. So, it reduces the intersections by one. And in addition to it, we try to space out major intersections at as large intervals as possible and evenly spaced. moving 113th, which I would say is the second most busiest, maybe argue with 117th, but a a very busy road. Moving it down to 114th puts it almost exactly in the middle of the other two. So, it increases the distance between the major intersections and it improves the spacing between it and higher speed between intersections. >> So, you could probably get going a little bit faster between them. What if what if you took 114th on the west side and brought it down to meet where 113th is now at Deans? How much how much more or less of a hassle through the house? >> That's what she's saying. >> Well, that's I don't I mean, we're all trying to decide whose ox is going to get goured here, right? [laughter] >> I mean, that would be a total taking of several homes. I mean, it's something that could be considered. We're not achieving the spacing of the intersections as well. >> Well, it is not military. We don't have to be dressed right, you know. But >> that's what Sue was saying. too many traffic coming out from the new house >> and it's gonna I mean where those >> you'd rather have them coming at 113th instead of 114. >> Yeah, that's right. >> Sure. >> But I I understand that position. If that was my house, I'd have that position, too. But there are those of us that live at 113th and already know that that intersection is horrible. >> There the sightelines to the south at 113th are just like my driveway. There's a huge dip in 121 south of Deans Country Manor. Cars disappear in that dip. When you're sitting and my driveway is almost straight across from 113th when you're looking to the south during the daytime, small cars disappear in that dip. And when you're trying to get out onto the road, you're halfway out on the road and all of a sudden there's a car there in front of Deans Country Manor. That's a horrible intersection and it's a horrible place to put more traffic. The third option that we're not even looking at or even considering, and I know it's been discussed, is why in the world is all that traffic from that whole area being rooted out to 113th or 114th? It doesn't have to be. That traffic could go north to 117th along the property line between DCM and and Braburns. >> That's where that road could should have could or should have gone. And we should make sure that it does that in the second part of DCM's development. >> There there are connecting roads to the north. >> Connecting roads are done now. I think with first edition it was done. >> Yeah, >> they're currently connected now. There's at least two routes now. There will be a third. >> Good. Then we don't need 113th anymore then, right? >> Or 114. >> 114 >> connection. >> Should aren't there other homes? >> Well, there's other options. There other way for look at other options. There are there are other sure that would just go through neighborhood >> more people that come on this road right now that are in this development. >> There are they come they come that way because they don't want to go through the screwed up intersection at Rush Creek >> because that's that whole development that feeds 113th and feeds Rush Creek Road >> 113th. I'm just saying 113th isn't just this development. There's other people. There's other houses. There's other stuff about 250 more. >> That road is a quarter of a mile long. 113th and it dead ends at Sundance Golf Course >> Event Center. >> What we are we are we pick are we fighting over which ones we're going to axe? I mean >> I don't think the idea is we want to provide as much access safely, right? I mean we're trying to get good spacing and safe intersections and like concerns about sight distance. Those are very valid. What if we provided less access safely? >> Hannipan County Hannipan County would not be against that. >> Right by your house again. I mean, if at least you have this connection, if they're going to head south, at least they don't go by your house. >> I mean, they go by Keith's house, I guess. >> Well, they go over by everybody's house. If you go north or south, they all live on that road. >> Eliminate the west access and then you don't have to have put a roundabout in there or anything. Still stay ting all of the residential >> and then you send them to the neighborhood and then you not only And then they get to 117th and then they all take a right and then they all run back to your house and then they're doing [laughter] >> 55 by here and you guys are all freaking out. >> Maple Grove Parkway could have extended straight up. >> That's That's [laughter] >> I know. But it's like we're looking for the most painful one that we want to do here. >> No, we're trying to figure out what's going to work for people. >> That's crazy. That's crazy to say we don't want to root people that live in a residential area through a residential area >> to get out from their home. It's an event center. [clears throat] >> We have a commercial district. You can't put a commercial traffic. >> It's not It's not just additional residences places. >> You're doing it now. You don't have any problems rooting that traffic right by my house. >> Um, >> but your house isn't a res I mean, you're on a county road, right? >> You're on a county road. >> A county road is not a subdivision road. I understand it's your residence, but if your driveway is in a subdivision, that is a different environment than it is on a county road. >> Those those roads that were put into that into that whole development are all put there because we let the developer do it the way it is right now. We let him screw us into this corner. It's just it goes right back to what I was talking about before. When the developers come in here and they drag a carrot around and the city of Dayton follows that carrot, we end up with this mess. I don't know how you get out of this mess without paying from somewhere. I mean, I'm not worried about whether whether the road going down through, you know, over 117th may go buy some homes. Maybe that changes the way the developer builds in there. Right now, there aren't any homes in that whole field. There's a couple hundred acres there with no homes in it. They're deciding, they're building roads, they're laying sewer and water. They haven't built anything in there. So, there's no one that lives in there now. So, the only people that would go through that new road over to 117th right now are maybe a few people from the Sundance development to the south that don't want to go through Rush Creek or the people that want to go to Sundance Golf Course, which is only half the size now as what it was a few years ago. >> I'm guessing that that in in the next 5 years, there won't be any golf course there. So, we won't have any commercial back there to worry about. They'll sell it all off and build more homes. Then it'll all be commercial. We will have adjusted our whole road system based on a commercial piece of property that's owned by the same developer that's developing that whole field that's causing all this problem in the first place. We followed his carrot all over the place and here we are. What did it get us? It got us an absolute mess. So if if we if we have to tell him he needs to run a road across through there and run it over to 117th, I don't have an issue with that. >> But you can't do that now that you have a preliminary plat. You can't do that. >> He doesn't have a plat for the whole property. >> Yes, he does. >> Yeah, he does. >> Yes, he does. >> So >> all of your comments, Keith, are very valid. I would agree with all of them. I don't disagree with any of your comments. I want that's clear. Like I'm not arguing with you. Um but that our time to our time to tell that to the developer, our time to do that stuff is that preliminary plaque. >> Much of these much of these issues raised them. >> Yeah. I I do not disagree with you. Again, none of us in this room have a single vote on that at all. None of us in this room have a single ounce of ability to change that. We could tell all day long and you guys can scream at them and yell at them and I can scream at him yell at the city council and say, "This is wrong. Don't do this." And you and I both have you guys have way more power than I do. I have zero power. Um, I'm just here to be staff and tell you how to help you out as much as I possibly can. But, um, I don't disagree, Lee, and I don't disagree, Keith. I mean, I get I get your frustration, but we're here now and we got to try to figure out a solution that's going to work here now cuz weren't listening back then. >> I don't I do not disagree again, but I'm here today. I wasn't here 20 years ago. I wasn't here even 5 years ago. Um, I wasn't here for those things. So, and I've I've been in the conversations. We had the 100 foot rightway. We had it taken care of, good to go, agreed upon, ready to go. and then it got changed. So, yes, Rick, >> quick question. You talked about the county perhaps going uh for lane. Any indication of how soon or when or any anything the discussion that they've had with you? >> None whatsoever. Uh the only answer I get when I ask the when question is not in the next 10 years because it's not on their plan. >> Okay. >> I wouldn't I wouldn't worry about it. It would I guess on that note I mean just a general kind of rule of thumb is usually you don't look at a lane expansion meaning adding additional lanes until you meet maybe >> 12,000 to 15,000 cars per day somewhere in that area that's super invest >> why would they invest any money on these roundabouts if they're thinking about that in 10 years they're that's going to be the Again, it's to benefit for the next 10 years. We would make these so they can be expanded. It wouldn't be money lost. >> Okay. >> I mean, there would be some inefficiencies because there' be some removals and expansion. >> We got 7:30. Tried our best to get to an hour and a half. I think these are all good questions. Does anybody have any further questions? Again, this is not the last time. We will have an open house as well for the after we go do some more information, take down your notes and such again from individuals that are directly involved with it. But um we'll have another open house so there will be another chance to have conversation. But any final kind of comments, questions? >> Well, where are all these 7,000 cars going to? >> Outside of Dayton, correct? Most of these cars are go through Dayton. So they're going >> I would I would guess them are regional >> 69 or 101. >> So our goal is to try and reduce that amount. That's why I think stop signs. So I I think the 69 >> them from to go through Fernbrook >> as a way to get to it destination outside of Dayton and use 169 or 101 >> um which is built for the higher traffic, >> right? >> We need to try and discourage that. And we also use that to piggy back on to if we are going to do roundabouts in 2028, can we put in stop signs now until then to make it safer and to maybe discourage traffic? So, it is just local traffic. >> I think Maple Grove did enough a good job of that by putting in the roundabout there and then the stop lights. So, I think that's honestly deterring a lot of people from this roadway that would normally have gone to this roadway. Maybe not. >> I don't think so. Not enough. >> Well, I don't know. I mean, it's picking up picking back up now. >> Creek all the way to territorial roundabout. >> That's what I mean. >> Eventually, when people when there's so many cars there and they stop at that stop and they can't go anywhere, eventually traffic finds its way there. It's like water. It finds the quickest, fastest way around and it'll go that way. When there's a stop sign and then there's a roundabout and then there's a stoplight. >> People don't have patience these days. They don't. And so they'll they'll find a different route and they'll say and maybe that's your point is find a different route. >> Miserable for them to get through there. >> Yeah, it's it's possible. >> That's that's how they found Fernbrook in the first place. >> So we sign >> now as justification until these other things get done. Yeah. So, Rush Creek Parkway, from my understanding, the reason why it even got stop signs is based on an actual person from head of my county going out to the intersection and watching it for a day. >> We finally got somebody who was new at the county to be able to go out there and watch the intersection for a day and they said, "Well, this intersection sucks." And they said, "Yeah, we've been telling you that for years." So, then they put stops. That's what I got. Was there a camera put up at 113? >> There was not a camera put up at 113. >> I thought I saw a poll there. There was >> Oh, yeah. Sorry. That's the that the other we had that put on traffic. >> No, that's the there's a Gosh dang it. I'm >> Oh, the camera was for the traffic counts. >> Was it camera? I didn't hear. >> I thought it was for our sock system or flock system. Is that for the traffic count? >> Yeah, that was Henipin counties. They collected the data for us. >> Yeah, it was only there for a week or two. >> Yeah, week or two. Yeah. So, they got traffic counts on that thing for whatever. But that's the only reason we have stop sign lines there is because somebody actually came up from the con and looked at the >> interr there too. >> Is there one there now? >> There was traffic at Rush Creek. There was a camera there too. >> Is there one there? >> I believe they moved it. I don't know if there was the same one or multiple but they did either one intersection. So they record all of the movements and then they give us the data. >> Right. I think the same camera was on Elm Creek for a period of time. >> And that's the traffic counting down. >> Another question. You're saying this is very high level. Yeah. 20,000 ft right now. You're asking for input of how it's going to impact our properties. If when does it become real that you talked to us about details that are going to make a difference? >> I would love if you had particular things about your property to share with me to like write it on a piece of paper right now so that when we have traffic numbers and I go and I try to move this, I know that. So, like if you know things right now that you can tell me so that when I go in and start moving lines, I can take it into consideration. I' sooner the better. >> Yeah. If you live on one of the corners here, that'd be great there. And I know Sue's one of them. >> And then I don't know. >> I'm having 17. >> You're Are you this one here? >> Yeah. Okay. So, that anything that you can, you know, concerns or use or, you know, whatever >> know about the property, you know. >> So, we're we're close to your home and there's a grade there. Um, and there was a rumor that your septic might be in that area. I don't know if that's accurate or not, but those are the types of things we would love to hear. Like you have concerns of different areas of a septic or a well or some other obstacle that we need to >> right now. We're 1132 1132 Fernberg and our well is right out by the road. >> So if you're planning because it needed to be there because the septic is in the back. >> That's true. Oh, if if the roadway tour were to expand, likely your well's gone, which means if they take any of our yard. Yeah. >> Yeah. Take your yard, your your well would have to be gone, which means that again, it would mean maybe your house has to be. >> So, those are the kind of things that that's the kind of stuff that like to be able to know that is great. And whether you want to email it to I think they probably >> I think my hopefully I'll kept the >> the uh Well, I have emails. We'll we'll send out an email asking for more info and giving content. Also, I mean, if if there's something that's going to impact it, I mean, just draw it on the the map here of where your septic or your well is. >> It would be great. >> Yeah. However, you can get us that information. I mean, that was kind of the intent here. The pictures that we're showing, I haven't drawn anything. These are older. the one at Rush Creek was done, you know, with the different like we just wanted to have this conversation so that we can get that information and we can try to, you know, account for it and understand what your concerns are and do our best as we're drawing it. And whatever we draw next isn't going to be set in stone. It's not going to have gone through approvals, but hopefully it's more refined than what this is. The traffic information might say we need another right turn lane here. Okay. Well, then I'll have to draw that in. >> What are these? >> These are just annoying. >> This would be just like the one if I do. >> I don't not get up about it. >> So, a mini roundabout the center come out. You see >> you drive right over it. >> What you would have seen on Fernbrook heading south prior to that redirection on Maple Grove Parkway. That's a mini roundabout. Basically, just a big giant center. One of the things that you should >> and they're really >> they're like more urban. They're a lot smaller and they're just trying to >> Yeah. >> You're supposed to drive it like a roundabout, but it doesn't have those same things and like with higher speeds, it's >> lose a lot of those the features that would >> enable you to slow people down. Yeah, but you should go throughout >> in general when we're designing roundabouts, the circulating roadways are 15 is probably going to get >> or at least like those entering curves, you know? I mean, that's kind of what we're aiming for, maybe like 25, but like those are kind of the speeds that are designed. And if you go and look at a roundabout that's 20 years old, I can tell you every time I do one, things are modifying and they're changing and they're always evolving. So there are roundabouts out there that suck that like I mean I've looked at some on aerials and you're like oh my gosh they should have done all kinds of things but that's because they're >> continuing to learn from them the more that they are. So please don't look at a roundabout that was the first one ever installed at wherever and think that it's going to be exactly how every roundabout going forward is going to be. We continue on this great >> you've already heard Maria mentioned our well in our front yard at 11320 um 11280 which is just the house to the south of us which is directly across >> that was that gentleman that was in here right >> his well is in his front yard too right alongside his driveway the house >> no landed his back farther back but the the house to the north of me the garage that's built on there. Had to get a special variance [clears throat] from the city of Dayton. >> When that garage was built back in >> 1971 or 72, >> that garage is closer to the road than what it would be allowed today. >> So that garage, that home would be screwed up. Ours would be screwed up. The one to the south would be screwed up. I'm not sure. >> I don't know. Depending on what X >> depending on what the design is, it may not be an issue. But if they want more land from our yards, it would be an issue. >> It would be an issue. >> There is no room for expansion there. >> And that's where if we know where those things are, then we can factor that in. And if as a result of the rightway, your well gets impacted, then that would be part of the rightway cost, >> right? The countyy's already looked at >> left and right turn lanes there like they did on some of the other intersections like they did at Brush Creek Parkway initially, and there really is no room. If you go to the west, you're you're taking out Deans Country Manor, right? Which is the >> the DCM developments. That's Deans Country Manor developments. That's >> that family that's doing that. >> And if you go our side, >> you're screwing with those homes that I >> Yes. Thank you everyone. Just so you know that >> and you know as much of that information then we can do our best to factor it in. I mean I can't guarantee. [laughter] >> Okay. fire away. What are you doing? >> Okay. I have I have a question for the engineer people, the people that designed these. On a 55 mph two-lane road, what is the capacity of the roundabout in traffic and say it in cars per day, cars per hour, however you measure traffic? >> There has to be a maximum number, right? >> Well, the bigger thing for for roundabouts, it has to do with like the different movements. So, it's that it's not going to be just like what's through traffic. It's going to have to do with like at different points in the roundabout for it to be a single lane it's like,00 cars but it's not just >> but >> per day per hour >> per hour. >> Okay. >> But then it has to do with like >> like it at a given point you'd say okay all the cars that are going north that are taking a left you'd have to add like that volume plus this like you have to add volumes from different points right >> to see because at different spots. Well, and that's kind of why I'm asking because I don't know at what point are we so saturated with either roundabouts or traffic that it just doesn't work >> well. And then that's where like like here like you can see on this Rush Creek one that was done where there's two lanes going northbound and that so that's where >> as we do the traffic analysis they will look at what those volumes are. They would do the modeling and be able to see those volumes and how it works. And then that would that's what leads into the like where do you need a second lane? When do you need two lanes for the whole thing for vehicles to get through, >> right? Like this is a [clears throat] spot where you know like this spot these cars turning depending on what that modeling shows right now. This could be handled more than one way depending on what the volumes are depending on how many people are coming like right here. How many cars are going this direction? >> Right now the projection here