e e e e e it is uh 6:31 on my clock we will call the call the meeting to order first item of the business is the Pledge of Allegiance Al to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible liberty and justice all right uh roll call do we take an agenda yeah all right um and then we've got the role of the Planning Commission listed on here on the agenda for those who aren't familiar with uh approval of the agenda didn't take a roll call yet you're good I was just I was just buzzing by it so sry guys any additions or corrections to the agenda uh no motion to approve second I got a motion and a second to approve the agenda all those in favor I I I motion passes 4 z uh move on to the consent agenda uh the only item on the consent agenda is Planning Commission minutes from March 7th any additions or corrections to those nothing here nope motion to approve second I got a motion from Nick and a second from Sarah all those in favor I I all motion passes 4 z uh open form open form uh anyone here for non-agenda items John anyone online um no just us all right uh we will move on uh number seven Council update uh so on the 12th we had H County Commissioner Uh Kevin Anderson came in and gave a a uh a Spiel um talked about the fire training facility the numbers um and and possible locations um small discussion on Future Park dollars although we had another related discussion last time we added a technical review to the to the treatment facility just to kind of an overview to make sure we're not missing something some contracts and then last Tuesday or last meeting uh the development on on lby street that was um that was approved pretty much as as you guys had releas released it the zler development conditional use permit was approved um Driven Auto Sales that was approved I know you guys had voted against it I think the B the coner at least my opinion was and I I think it was common was that there was no downside to approving that um it seemed like it was really aimed at you know the the uh the property or the the LEC guy he he could make more money with it so it was approved Quick Trip uh concept review went through sounded like most coun uh most of the council was okay with it um then we had a long discussion on Park improvements uh how much money we're spending on each park it was uh basically um the two large Parks Stevens and the one next to brimer Trails just how much money were spending in there and what it was going to that was it sounds good uh we'll move on to public hearing um just just a note there are none tonight typically iups would have a public hearing correct yes at the Planning Commission and uh because the notice couldn't go out in time the items uh that are up for iups will be will hold the public hearing at the city council meeting yes so I'm going to take the blame for that I went on vacation over spring break and came back and realized I missed the publication deadline so public hearings for items tonight will go to the city council on Tuesday the 23rd April 23rd 6:30 p.m. so just for clarification purposes normally we would have an iup with correct with a public hearing so um I guess with that we'll move into number nine new business business 9A interm use permit for extended home business lawn smart just for clarification on that Peter uh that means city council will run and vote on the the public hearing Planning Commission will not be present nor need to vote for those public hearings correct um you still need a recommendation but you're not you can accept public comment and I would encourage that but it's not a public hearing where we've advertised to neighbors that will occur prior to the council meeting if that made sense all right uh so this is La smart oh I think I have a question on that before we get into these just because it pertains probably to both um I know one of the if the applicant wanted to extend and have the public here versus there you so the commission has the opt okay so let's think of procedurally that the commission has the option you know you can make a recommendation for approval denial or table an item uh let's say if you table an item it that I that stays here uh the council would still hold the public hearing um my advice to the council would be to you know if you have members of the public they would come in and say what is that they want say and then attend I would ask them to attend the next Planning Commission meeting where you would discuss it again okay gets a little fuzzy gets a longer lot longer process because that's published and we have to have it based on the published date yes so Council will still have to hold the public hearing on Tuesday April 23rd 6:30 p.m. got it all right yeah that helps clarify it okay so the first item this is for lawn smart uh it's located 1748 117th Avenue so roughly it's at the intersection of 117th and Dayton Parkway so the applicant is Michael Groves uh he's requesting an interm use permit for a home extended business so a home extended business is to to describe it in summary is a business that's larger than what you would hold in your house house so an example of um I'm going to call a city planner that that uh works out of a spare bedroom this is bigger than that uh so the property is I believe it's I'm going to call it about 4 and A2 acres in size or four 4.6 Acres I believe uh they have uh it's an outdoor or Lawn Care maintenance business and they you know have the applicant that will give a better description about it than than the one I can provide but uh they have I believe four full-time employees and then up to about a dozen seasonal employees um so there's kind of two parts of this the first part is is lawn care so you have employees that are coming in the property you pick up equipment they go to the work site um do their job and then come back and drop off the equipment and then go home again um the second part is the seasonal storage business uh just to kind of let's see if I have an aerial phot um so the the primary what's used for the lawn care business is the accessory the existing accessory bu building which is used for storing construction equipment uh behind the building there's a couple of fuel tanks there's and I'm not sure if it shows up on here there's a um uh shipping container that's used for salt storage and then it also doesn't show on here there's a carport that's used used to store um mowers and other smaller equipment um the area that's in front of the accessory building is used for employee parking and then there's other you know whether it's uh trucks or other equipment that's just kind of stored around here um along the east property line will be attachments for skid steers as well as snow plows um I should add you know the area that's along I'm going to say on the property to the east is fairly heavily wooded um you know having gone out there in the winter you can see through the trees I can't imagine that you could uh during the summer so um it is screened by the neighboring property uh the storage business there's uh approximately 20 spaces for outdoor storage of boats RVs and other material um and I'm grouping these two as part of the home extended business as you know it's whether there's two businesses it's still the same permit um within the code there's a number of uh requirements that are that a home extended business needs to meet um just to summarize it again there's part portions of the business that are compliant in other areas that are not compliant it does allow the city council to uh say that although the business is larger or or may not NE necessarily um meet all the requirements word for word with the city code uh the council may have the determination that is is still appropriate for this location so um in this case uh outside storage is allowed if it's the property is larger than 2 and 1 12 acres and the outside storage is screened um in this case the property is larger than 2 and 1 12 acres uh I'm going to say that the outside storage is the boat storage is very screened the um some of the equipment is screened Seas depending on the season um the business needs to be set back 100 ft away from neighboring homes which it is compliant with uh the home extended business can use up to one building uh which I'm saying in here no but it can be and when I say no uh I'm referring to the use of of the um shipping container and the carport so I think and I don't want to speak for the applicant but I I think it could be brought into compliance um the home extend businesses are limited to two employees which uh this business has more than that uh as well as limited to two uh trucks which this business has I believe but I'm going to say about a half dozen and then once again the council can although these are the requirements of the code the code does allow the council to determine that this is an appropriate place for a larger business than what it states in the code so it's kind of saying that every location is very unique to uh every business and it's not a one- siiz fits all for everything um so again the applicant is here I'm sure that they could provide a better description of the business than what I can uh but this is a quick summary of it all right um I guess before we begin I want to go on record saying that I have may have a perceived conflict of interest um just just to note from 20 from May of 2021 to May of 2023 I did use this property uh for storage of my boat but currently not stored there um right now it's sitting at my parents place so um just wanted to put that out there uh very familiar with the site having used it very familiar with the uses that go on there um I don't I don't believe I show any bias with what the applicant is trying to do here so just wanted to make you guys aware of that thank you thank you um with that uh Mike do you want to M you want to come forward and tell us a little bit more about the the business and the operations should I sit yeah does it matter uh whatever makes you more comfortable yeah what just slide the mic over if you're uh name and address would be for the record as well uh name is Mike Groves address is 17480 117th Avenue North and Dayton 55327 um John I mean we we do yeah John kind of explained it we do Care Landscaping and snow removal in the winter um it's kind of all one one business so um in the winter our full-time staff is a lot lower uh because we can't we can't keep everyone employed uh we rely on a lot of you know uh not even part-time just when it snows we need guys to run equipment um in the summer it's uh you know roughly roughly 12 between the Lawn and Landscape you know we've got about seven months of full-time work on the lawn side uh same with the Landscaping so um but yeah we the business really it's run out of my house but like like John said the people are showing up grabbing equipment leaving for the day we typically run 410s so we're working 7 to 5 Monday through Thursday uh they're out mowing landscaping and they're backing at night and they're gone um so by no means is this a business that's running 12 employees on site it is a a business that runs offsite essentially so um I can be more specific if you'd like I mean how early do people show up in the morning and you know I'm just thinking if I were your neighbor and you got a bunch of people coming in the morning yeah so call time is 7 typically okay and then we're typically done by 5 okay any other questions should we have a good relationship with your neighbors they come talk to you about noise complaints or anything like that um I actually went to both of them when I found out that you know I had I had to do this and I I thought for sure it was my neighbor to the east they said they didn't you know it wasn't I used the word red me out but uh they they they said wasn't them and um I mean I my neighbor to the west can't see anything cuz it it's absolutely so the the the trees are too heavy uh and like John said in the summer my neighbor to the west they can see the red barn but um you know the equipment itself is hidden and and if that's the issue I can certainly we can move equipment around I mean it doesn't have to be against the property we've got plenty of room to put things elsewhere um but I you know I think we've we've damaged the fence on the east side which I'm pretty sure is actually mine um that's about the only complaint my neighbor has given me um and I certainly am happy to rectify that for him but um I've got great relationships with both of them I typically plow their driveways for free because they're they've got to be in their 70s or 80s and um so I I was surprised to hear well when I thought it was one of them I I was surprised to hear that but long answer to a short question yes I have a great relationship with both so to clarify so the the permit started out based on a complaint for Z that was going to be my question is how it started just out of curiosity don't need to know who it was but if it was complaint driven or something that staff found out so through their own just and and Mike maybe you can help clarify this I since I know the property pretty well um I I when I was visiting it you you were about the same size operation you are today yeah I mean more or less um and winter storage is winter storage is in and you're in for 6 months give or take snow right yeah there's no activity in the winter it's not in and out um I was a boat storage I would park it there so it wasn't in my driveway and I was in and out pretty frequently I saw no one else on the property during those times except for maybe one employee and Mike um and I would come between 3:00 in the afternoon um sometimes 7: a.m. sometimes 8:00 a.m. 9:00 a.m. I was working from home during this time it was covid um but your job never went your your company never went work from home because type of job it is right you can't move from home with the place I wish so just to kind of give a little context of of you know I was in and out of this site a lot um during that time because we were we were taking the boat out quite a bit um and hardly ever saw anyone there um generally speaking part of this time was during the the road reconstruction on 117th and west west French Lake Road right um yeah I mean y it started right about your driveway and right um you know besides the I would say besides behind the the the red barn is what it's described as or the red the red garage besides that the property was always kept in pretty neat and orderly fashion that was the spot where you could tell they were loading unloading stuff from the day before and it was always changed but it was never I wouldn't call it a a mess it was just never organized if that if that's a sure a fair assessment yeah um I'm trying to help give a little more can I add a few comments yeah um so if if you drove past my house today and you didn't know I ran a business from it you wouldn't know um the road got dropped I want to say about 10 ft with the new construction um and prior to that everything was pretty well hidden um my house compared to the barn is they're not close but close enough that you you you just wouldn't know um I'd also like to add you know I one of the comments in the packet that I got from John uh made mentioned that I would be better suited in a industrial park and I just would ask you guys to consider what's being built around me which is a industrial park we have an empty million square foot building across the street um another 375,000 foot building to the West that's empty um MTL is going up across from um the the horse barn uh my neighbor Dave who sold his land a couple years ago I believe they've got a plan for for development um if I was next to a a 40 you know a Back 40 going up with with residential homes I I would raise the the white flag and and and absolutely understand the the the reason I'm here but um I I don't live close to I mean I live close but with within a braver and trails is actually one of my clients and they're exactly a 1.1 mile away that's the closest Residential Building to me so whoever whoever filed this complaint it I mean it makes sense but it doesn't um I'm basically in an industrial park I wanted to also clarify one thing in the application and then ask you a little bit more about clients cuz yeah braver and trails I didn't know about that sure um the uh the application says you purchase in 2022 but that's not correct I believe it was 2019 so and so just wanted to clarify that he's he's been here for five years running the business not not just two um and then uh you primarily service HOAs or H in industrial buildings yeah so do you have an idea of how many clients in the city of Dayton you Service uh braburn is our only I believe they're our only client in Dayton okay I was just curious on that just knowing what you do knowing we're building a lot of communities that are HOA sure I mean seems to or or big off industrial office warehouse type things that need your type of service so sure um my only concern has to do kind of more on the environmental side of things if you're staring fuel there salt um and probably maintaining equipment if you're in an industrial park or Business Park you're usually on an impervious service and therefore you have some protection you are not so what steps are you taking to ensure you know that that the air and Soil and Water are all um protected from from the business sure um I guess to be honest I I don't know that we're taking steps at this point um when we've when we've bowed re oil is our fuel supplier and they had to check something I don't know if it was zoning or what but there was a chance they couldn't bring us fuel because of maybe we were too close to a development or or whatever um we you know like we don't even do oil changes in house that's all done at at Midas or you know Steve's Auto or whatever um the oil is an industrial you know they're 500 gallon tanks um do we spill probably but I don't think it would be enough to be concerned about um the salt is stored in in the container um and you know uh is that that's that would that would be maybe the biggest concern would be is the salt damaging the the trees around around me um which you know if it is I'm happy to replace okay like said that was my main concern yeah yeah you had mentioned that you're basically in industrial park and everybody around you is industrial um but what about your neighbors I think neighbors both Neighbors on each side and maybe even further to the east they're resid IAL right yeah and I and I I I say that in the sense of you know no one on my street enjoys what's being developed um and I probably was the only one that I mean not that anyone could put up a fight because the city wasn't going to change what was going on um I don't have I I I didn't have an issue with it because hopefully I have a Payday coming uh given the road that is basically striped to go right over my house um so what you know you could consider this temporary in a sense because at some point I will be bought out um to to answer your question specifically correct I'm not in an industrial park um but it sure feels like one um I have called the cops three times this winter based on suspicious activity on the building across the street and of course they're thankful for that and twice they've come to my house knocked on my door wanted to know if I had any better sub you know uh description of what I saw and their exact words to me well we are relying on you to call this in when you see it and I've got no no problem with that um but I shouldn't have to um and that that probably doesn't carry any weight with you except for the fact that the city is asking me to help them um so but no I don't live in industrial park but as soon as Dave develops his land you know it's it's certainly will I I have to look at one at least sure I think future zoning is is that through here right um yeah so this property is guided for uh uh I'm going to call it medium density residential when are you you're referring to your neighbor Dave you're talking about the the Dave across the street to the South to the South okay yeah and it's guided for medium density resid itial um north of 117 South is industrial is what it's guided as I guess I'm trying to relate it more to the conversation we had at the last meeting where we're talking about the road alignment of future Dayton Parkway and what this area becomes in the future future uh you know everything's going to change yeah thanks anyone else have anything for Mike no questions for him no thank you I wanted add one more thing if that's okay yeah um so being that I live in this area um I know of a lot of other businesses in the area and I just wanted to to give you the you know the amount of businesses and the mileage away from my home um so my neighbor Dave has been running a landscape business out of his home for 45 years um you guys probably all know who Dave aert um my neighbor to the east has a car repair business there's another Construction Company 4 miles from me um another Lawn and landscape business .9 miles from me a sewer uh city sewer and water company6 miles for me and I I measured all this on my my phone um excavation business one mile for me um another landscape business 1.1 miles cotch landscape which maybe you guys are familiar with 1.1 miles um there's also a very massive storage facility just to the south of here um that I think you guys shut down some of it because I had a few clients come in from them saying that they were kicked out but he has a just a massive property uh that's 2.1 Master Lawn Service on Fernbrook is 2.1 and then there's a tree service uh 3.4 miles away most of these businesses are not nearly covered with trees like I am um most of them are wide up wide open so that's 12 businesses eight of them run equipment out of their home um so I'd ask that you just consider that when you're when you're making your making your decision thank you we may ask you back up but I I we'll see okay so I should stay no well move into discussion here um there I guess uh I wanted to go first with um with two different uh or another small business uh or extended extended home business that we did approve July 9th of 2020 at this at at the Planning Commission um it's uh the address was uh 1748 480 107 no that's your address that's that one the address was uh here uh 11 uh 520 Hemlock Lane North um that site was 3.18 3.87 Acres um and it was a Paul if you remember it was a a tree like a tree trimming tree maintenance business over in in the elm Elm Creek Park area um that one we allowed six employees on site um they were doing work on site um almost all day long um from what I recall and um and uh we did approve that one uh for a a iup so um wanted to just to note that we did have a precedence of a similar size smaller in nature but similar similar operation maybe a little bit more onsite noise all day long than this one would have um and then we did have the iup from the zanbar property that Mike had mentioned uh just this last fall for outdoor storage so we we do have a little bit of Precedence on two different properties um one's a similar use and one's a similar extended home business so for the the two uses that that you're operating here um the other thing I wanted to add um it's not as clear in the pictures as on site all those trees right around the the boat storage and I believe a fair amount of the ones on the west are um pine trees coniferous so all year long you're not seeing that um when we chose this site as our boat storage convenience was obviously a factor but also like Mike was saying you can't see it from the road you can't see it from French Lake we check that stuff out before we chose because we were worried about our boat uh from that that standpoint so wanted to put that out there as well I know we can't know who complained but what was the complaint centered around yeah what was the nature of the complaint um I I believe it was just that it was not appropriate for this area Okay um yeah that seems like a bigger complaint for what's across the street you know what I mean like that that's that's what is not appropriate it's the giant building not someone storing boats in there in their yard but that was something I noticed too is I checked I checked on on henin County's site and there's no sale of homes I mean Mike's has got to be one of the most recent sales in the immediate vicinity of this so uh it was kind of interesting that he's been operating this way for five years and it's coming in now um I had something else that I was John just to clarify the neighbors did not receive notification of this correct okay so there's a chance they could show up at city council right voice their concern if they have any yes yeah I don't have any questions for the applicant but a couple just thoughts yeah uh you know this body is usually fairly stringent on outdoor storage just you know want to make sure it's screened and taking care of and thoughtful and and being used in the right location um this particular applicant and property seems like it's about as screened as you get and you know you use that those trees that were in the middle of your property to to create that buffer and uh it's right centered you know east to west and all the way in the back um I didn't have a chance to drive past this property but I did I have previously a number of times and never realized there was anything back there um I I think in this case I'm okay with this you know it's also just supporting local business um you brought up the elephant in the room that road goes right right to your doorstep so um you know the small business is is limited um in this particular location so um hopefully when that time comes you can find another property in Dayton and keep your business here but my wife and I this is our second home in Dayton okay that that was what I was going to add is that road that road that and this is kind of goofy and I don't know why we did this but we have two lane arrows going straight into Mike's living room they painted it they're painted they're painted in the roadway and see what all those complaints get you yeah right MH so yeah yep that was a contractor error that he put those on there and he did not get the hatching that was on the plan and by the time we got him to go up there and do it it was too cold so it'll be done this spring the the center two lanes will be hatched out so only the right and the left will be remaining gotcha okay it was something I noticed because I haven't been by in a while so it's funny when this came up I drove by it as well yeah I think as long as you maintain you know that storage in the middle it's not visible to the road not visible to your neighbors um you're respectful to the time frame 7 a.m. and not rting engines and all that stuff and if you get neighbor complaints I mean the city council might hear something that we don't and then that that might sway decisions but I don't see a reason not to approve this one Nick you got anything to add um you know I struggle with it a little bit right because we've we're not zoned for this in this area yet right and I think yet is probably the prime word for it in that I think in interim use permit that that sounds like it makes a lot of sense in this area because this area is going to change it's an area in transition um you know which explains what's going on across the street to the South and why it kind of feels like it would fit here you know I think 5 10 years ago it probably wouldn't feel as much like that like like it would fit there um so from that standpoint the interim use permit part of it seems to make sense I think something for us to consider as as we we potentially consider making a recommendation on this is well how long is that inter ruse going to be there right how how long until the endgame is seen here that um this area does rezone and and look to completely change in character because the neighbors are residential um looking to the north there's certainly some outdoor storage commercial is industrial is activity potentially occurring to the north so it's kind of already quasi go that direction um you know I would I'd be interested to hear the way the rest of the the board feels and and whether or not a motion comes about the one thing I did note um is the staff report not noted that screening was provided I think specifically on the east side the screening is provided by the adjacent property um right there isn't any screening on this property on the east side it's all provided by the adjacent property if the adjacent property were to take that down there isn't screening on the east side anymore West Side heavily screened I think where the storage is contained since it is bounded by trees I think it's pretty well screened there um but that was one thing that I that I noted during staff's presentation was that that that screening is provided by the adjacent property those are kind of my comments a question I would have is if another person comes in with the same zoning and wants to do this but they are completely surrounded and don't have the industrial park to the South would our answer be the same I'm not saying it has to be but I think we need to be clear and perhaps long-term like does there need to be some sort of medium like some middle ground that like cuz we're always going to have these awkward transitions when you go particularly from industrial to residential commercial to residential isn't quite so like Stark but when you go from industrial to residential that feels really awkward um and this is approp it feels this feels more appropriate because you across the street from an industrial park but if you were across the street from a sub you know subdivision it wouldn't feel even though your zoning might be the same um and so not that that's necessarily something that has to be decided now but but I think we be need to be able to clarify if someone else came who was surrounded by residential and we would maybe be leaning more towards no for that person um but on paper their zoning is identical so how do we justify that so I would say every project is very unique but you know you do need to considerate consider you know yeah this still Is Res residential area even though right across the street is industrial but is very unique to the rest of Dayton not everyone has a million square foot Warehouse as a neighbor very few very few yeah thankfully about five of us yep I mean I'm I'm just I I'm candidly looking at Aerials I didn't pay this close of attention to the houses nearby from the storage standpoint if if every one of these neighbors around there has 10 boats which in the Aerials is is that way um this the outdoor storage is not my you know it that piece of it is no problem it's you know I would agree maybe the the screening around the building needs to be cleaned up a little bit and um there are other outdoor storage places nearby that back up to residential areas um I'm not going to call them out because I know who they are and um don't use them but uh I know of them and some could use some better screening yes they could they could use this property as an example as an example of appropriate screening for your neighbors um again my concern is back to the environmental so um anything knowing that you don't do the maintenance on site helps um as long as we can have some guaranteed Assurance about the salt because that can be devastating um to the plants around it that would be the only concern I have so whether that gets moved onto a pad of some sort or into the structure um that would be my only concern are you guys certified uh mpca smart salt uh no but that's probably coming for anyone in my business I think New York right now requires it many states on the East Coast um a lot of companies are moving to liquid which we are dabbling in and have been for about three or four years uh but I'm I am I do not have a certificate no I I think you know for me too on that east side of the property line some of that outdoor storage gets really close to the property line that's not really screened uh by that property um you know if I were to support this i' I'd probably say I'd want to see some of that stuff moved off if you look at the current aerial um there's some stuff stored up right onto that line um real tight and I would imagine outdoor storage does have a setback yeah so in this case for a home business that's 100 feet from a neighboring resident so in this case it is 100 uh you know General Al speaking you know I think of driveways have to be a set back 5 ft okay you know which is still small we do have um so if you look at the the map here where it actually has my physical address listed um yep that that area to the South there um is pretty much open and we certainly could move just move it on over everything on the line can be moved over SC over um and I I would be happy to put up trees if I needed to to to keep the neighbor happy um you know obviously at my expense I would imagine the damage to the fence might have came from potentially storing stuff right tight to the fence and yeah and whatnot okay I think that would help um interim use permit uh to your point earlier about how we deal with these transitions I think Nick or Paul one of these said said exactly that interm use permit um helps helps with that um do we do we have a timeline or something that we want to tie to IT staff report suggested five years I I felt that kind of would be appropriate and if I'm correct me if I'm wrong but then the applicant would just have to come back in to request an extension or to request a new inter Muse permit um Planning Commission and then council could at that point kind of assess how things are going is 5 years potentially too long for us to figure this out you know you've been operating this way since would you say I believe we bought 19 and the house was purchased for the purpose of expanding the business which was quite small at the time so we have an opportunity to maybe kind of provide some changes to to how the site is used and operated get some of that stuff off the edge off the edge of the property line um focus on on the environment and and maybe revisit is I think the question for to me it sounds like there's probably there's at least it s I won't speak for you guys but it sounds like there's some support here um so maybe I wonder if the discussion up here is now about time I I think that's where I'm leaning in in that regards would a fence make more sense than trees just cuz if it's only for five years they're not going to get very big but if it's for five years off fence and so maybe you know whether the I don't know fences aren't very reusable but trees are definitely not reusable so yeah is three better than five is five okay I think that based on what I'm hearing from the rest of the board here it feels like that's where the discussion might be going I'm right now I'm I'm fine with five um knowing that you know we have we have plans for Dayton Parkway to extend at some point I'm actually fine with no timeline on it because of that piece of it and that's going to be the driver more than anything else um I think we you know south of here it's industrial park right M north of here north of 117th we have medium density residential I think that's something we need to revisit in the next comp plan that doesn't seem to fit or make sense to your point earlier why are we putting residential right next to Industrial um and so both of the you know there's there's a whole lot of things that we need to figure out with this that I you know maybe five is okay but um yeah I think there has to be some time limit though the whole point of the inter use right but um I wouldn't go less than five okay and then any maybe restrictions on the size of the company you know I'm sure you want to grow the company right I mean that's everybody's everybody's goal is to do bigger and better right um but we don't want to see 100 employees at this site right to be honest with you I I don't know that I want to get bigger I've been a little bigger and uh last winter was an absolute nightmare with you on a snow we got the amount of equipment that went down the amount of employees we needed the people that didn't show up um I believe I told John I'm actually looking to downsize right now because I I can probably make the same amount of money with less headache bigger is is not always better absolutely not would we be allowed to condition the interim use permit on number of employees yes yeah something to consider if you know if the potential concern is it getting much bigger it runs with the land not with the property owner right so as an inum use permit it can be restricted to the property own oh can okay yeah I mean I I I think we make that an easy condition on this one just to restrict it to you on iops are they're restricted to the property own fin to the applicant okay I I I believe if I read it correctly you have 16 employees with your contract or seasonal so we like right now we have four yeah and we'll we probably this year probably won't exceed I would say eight or nine because we are we are trying to downsize so is it nine total or four plus nine uh it would be four um well it would be it would be four plus five so okay I'll have probably two guys starting mid April cuz the LA the grass will turn green um and then our landscape crew will kick in and that that will not be more than three so I would say at Max there will be eight employees plus myself okay 15 Z yeah I mean that's that's change the way it's going to get used right 20 might maybe and at that point I'm probably looking for a new location we and i' I talked about this a year ago we're probably getting too big for the property and then I was like no I'll stay smaller and that's kind of the idea of the interim use permit right they they might outgrow it or a home home extended business they're going to outgrow it or if they don't then they remain that way but okay do you want to entertain a motion do you want to entertain a motion do you want to make a if I could add So within the packet there is a draft resolution that does have uh four conditions of there is approval if I can just read these off so uh one is the applicant shall remove the shipping container from the property within 6 years uh so the city code does not allow shipping containers to be used as permanent storage or permanent structures uh item two the applicant shall sufficiently screen outdoor storage from view of the street and neighboring properties within 60 days a screening shall consist of a 6ft privacy fence and or a row of 6 foot Conifer trees uh three employee parking shall be located in the backyard so currently that's it's still part of the backyard but it the intention is um behind I'm going to say behind the barn or other otherwise screen um so that is one I thing that you can tell from the the street uh for four the interm use permit shall expire and the home extended business shall cease in 5 years and then I've got number five is a maximum of 15 employees uh reporting to the site I didn't come up with that myself good job great like can can we change can we just add the the three to F the five to three I mean his his operation his operation it's it's it's more about your employees aren't on site when you have 15 right so let's just add it as 15 no you know the the employee parking just add it together if guys have to car poool and park somewhere else sure you know what I'm saying yep okay I I have to word that somehow or just or just add it as five just add it as five just leave it as five can you expand on that a little bit what are we talking about never mind you lost me a little bit there I was saying I was just saying that the number of employees actually doesn't really matter because they're not on site sure oh so just make it the parking for the the employees on site okay cuz I'm assuming with your Landscaping Crews where you tend to have a little bit more they're taking a work truck there's two of them in there yep I guess I where I come from in the employees is more employees more equipment more fuel more everything else okay more more everything okay supplies they may not actually physically show up to the site you know you know they might show up to the place that they're doing the work yeah right but yeah that's fine M you comfortable with 15 yeah I don't I don't foresee us ever having that many but yeah and they could come in say he did wanted to have 20 to amend it or get a different one right he's not locked in he would have to get an approval to then exceed that if specifically they wanted to do that yes yeah yes okay and are we talking 15 full-time just 15 people total okay doesn't doesn't matter their status yep and if you did want to exceed that You' just have to come back yep yeah seem reasonable yeah I mean there's times where we we do have shovelers that are on site for 10 minutes I mean this year it was three times because we only shovel three times uh but we typically have you know 15 shovelers out um so at you know for maybe a half hour in the winter I might exceed the 15 but it's I mean yeah we won't know that's not on record I I was G to say is that on record is not absolutely un can I entertain a motion yeah I'll make a motion to approve based on the four written resolutions plus the fifth one limiting the employee count to 15 on site second all right we have a motion and a second um all those in favor I I uh all those oppose motion passes 4 Z good luck at city council yep so again city council will hold similar conversation will hold the public hearing Tuesday April 23rd 6:30 p.m. at City Hall okay and this is not City Hall this this is okay yeah so here come right back yep same hot seat all right so I'm good you're you're good okay thanks thank Youk you all right moving along uh I believe it's 7B yeah how are we doing that 723 I just I like to keep track of this we're close um so this is Dean pumpkins uh it's located at 17270 125th avue North uh they were requesting an interim use permit for an event so so I going to make it assumption that the plan commission is all familiar with with Dean pumpkins they've been in business for uh many years U as a commission Might Recall last year we had I believe it was last year we had a a somewhat similar IEP for an event center uh for a business that was operating you know without a permit that kind of raised a trigger of the question of what other event centers do we have in Dayton there's more than one um so staff had reached out to other known events centers and said you know you you need to get a permit so that that's why we're here tonight for Dean pumpkins uh so Deans I I I'm just going to say generically is is located at the sharp corner of 125th and uh West no East French Lake Road um they have uh between the dean family roughly about 700 Acres that are owned uh this IEP is limited to about half of that or 300 acres um I will say it is about the most remote area that we have in Dayton um that's not fair close it's it's not fair because you're not the most remote because yes because I want the most remote location but also I'm right there so we're not that remote so Dean pumpkin what we asked Deans to come back with is to list every type of event that you could possibly imagine being there whether they operate or not as another item so it's much easier to um get permission or to have everything and then kind of work backwards if something doesn't work out and they don't necessarily have to use that event uh so different types of events that are listed is there's a corn maze uh hay rides haunted attraction concerts Ice Castles the Ice Castles refer to uh this previous year was what was held in mle Grove um with Christmas tree sales birthday parties and and corn pit and this is held in it doesn't well I'll get to the next slide in an existing uh agricultural building or Barn I'll call it um weddings and receptions uh Easter activities and motor crops so and I'm going to let the the applicant kind of describe what activities would occur where so um again this is uh it's a large area um yes and otherwise I we have half the family here I'm gonna say I would imagine [Laughter] not name and address Bruce Dean uh 18351 South Diamond Lake Road Dayton uh Kyle Dean 11371 East French Lake Road uh Dayton um yeah so obviously you um I'm assuming most of to our farm um you know obviously we have the fall activities that uh is our main our main attraction um there is a few things that we've had ideas about that we haven't uh obviously pursued but obviously wanted to get permission for future use potentially um yeah ad well I was going to see if what they had ask us I guess Bruce and col if you could point to the screen what is occurring where so can you blow it up at all or no this is just a you'll have the dirt bike track obviously you can see right there um that would be potentially um you know a one day a week you know 1:00 to 7 o'clock you know potentially maybe a Saturday you know over this you know a couple Saturdays over the summer um just recreation no sanction R yeah just it just be a practice I mean it's you know right now we've certain times out the year we've had 20 people of family and friends out there and for been there for 20 years um hey rides you know it it goes goes starts at the farm and goes around the dirt bike track and comes back up yep the haunted attraction we're thinking it' be in the north um east corner right up in there um there's a few slides for that for some information concerts were kind of just we're thinking about not talking about that or just canceling it you know not doing cross it off the list basically um ice castles you know up in the parking lot or up by the building would be you know where we do pumpkin stuff um right up in there so we can park cars where we normally park that came about because Kyle had got a um call from uh the people that did it Maple Grove last year they wanted to set up and use our facility for it we told them we kind you know we we sell pumpkins you know and then you a certain amount of gallons per minute for water and um their set up time was kind of would interfere with our fall stuff farming and everything else didn't really work out in the event I guess you know where past that but Christmas trees potentially you know maybe maybe selling trees birthday parties and you know all that stuff in the fall weddings you know there were have a lot of people want weddings out there um they come for the pumpkin patch can I have a wedding out here well I you know we're not we're not a you know event we don't you know we're not advertising you know what I mean we're not the city doesn't allow that basically so we just say no um as of right now you know potentially Easter activities kind of the spring babies you know if you're familiar with Twin Cities maze could have a couple weekends of opening the corn pit in the spring or may or whatever to do that stuff and yeah track is already there my only um I have no problem with any of it uh my only the only thing kind of sort of is that the The Event Center thing that we approve you guys approved I wasn't on the time I was out there being pissy about it at the time I'm on this side of the table um so but we have a time limit on Friday and Saturday of 11: p.m. and then 10 p.m. during the rest of the week and the Deans at dark proposal had uh evening operation till 11:30 p.m. would you have an issue bringing that back to 11: to fall in line or does it have to be like is that critical to the business itself or is that a non-issue probably a non-issue I mean say you'd close at 11: but you know you you'd maybe have a few stragglers well that was kind of I think that was as the person in the audience that was my push to move it up because if you say midnight no one's getting out of there at midnight you're going to be pushing 12:31 by the time and as the neighbor to this supposed Event Center didn't really want all that traffic at that late at night so that would be my only that's the only thing on here that caught my attention at all was that one yeah but we've obviously we've done the flashlight Maze and what we found out is 9:00 no one else is really coming everyone else is you know they they either mess around or not they're not you know they're not doing things they should be done so want to close a little sooner okay the the two questions I have or the question I have obviously the dirt bike tracks up in the the upper left of the picture and you said the the haunted attraction upper right in kind of that Grove of trees there um besides those two and Maze or wagon rides all the other activities are kind of centered around the farm itself yeah pretty much yep I mean a buding 125th in French Lake right in that yeah yeah them two items are up in the corners there um the the haunted attraction people would park where everybody else Parks normally and then we would wagon them wagon them back there and then wagon them back to the parking lot that was the thought for that anyways I mean I would imagine the the reason I asked this right is is imag I'm imagining more of the concerts you're not going to have a concert out we if if we wanted if you even wanted at a concert then you wouldn't want it out in the middle of the field and then people walking back kind of the serious point at we're done at 11:30 but it might take someone a half hour to walk back or yeah it was uh it was a thought you know dud we want to have a little something and have it by the shed or the buildings and you know it's just but more like a Magnus size yeah one off well he get they get special for those big for the big events with the um Amplified music right because that was the other concern was Amplified music late at like night cuz you know your neighbors um and but they get a special oh yeah cuz the the the actual says no sound ampli no sound amplifications after 8:00 P.M Outdoors indoors is fine but in an outdoor you know but he Magnus gets their special permit Magnus will be applying for the same type of permit okay so if we had a concert in the in the shed then yeah then then do whatever that's fine it's just the outdoor sound amplification has to end by 800 p.m. because that travels so far for your neighbors okay and not that I have little kids but some of my neighbors have little kids and they would like them to go to bed and so I mentioned earlier that this is a remote place so the nearest home that is not owned by one of the Deans is about 1,000 ft from property line or from from not sure it's Leo if it's from 1300 80 is half mile quart mile away okay so so a quarter mile from your house or a quarter mile from the nearest activity from the mile it be over it' be half mile from theed track so half mile okay in Leo you're not getting picked up from the microphone so one it's a half roughly half mile from the wooded area and a quarter mile from from your house here e e East right there okay and this you own this house the boys yeah probably talking the next property down to the South off the map sound amplification just travels though because I'm I'm not quite a mile from Magnus and I can hear they're like I could sing along if I was so inclined so which I am not have you I was going to say have you what have you no no I'm a k I as my husband said I don't enjoy fun so I mostly just wh the entire while I'm I don't know if we've officially met I'm on the corner of zanar yeah as long as you're file like it doesn't look like other than that 111 bringing that time up to the 11: p.m. that's the only thing that doesn't match the current code for Event Center so other than that I'm I have no issue with any of this personally yeah from my standpoint this area brings the community together um you know primarily if we can do it uh within the right time frames and and make sure we're being respectful to Neighbors which I think is the whole point of this iup um yeah you know it seems great the only thing that was a little bit alarming to me is it says that it could operate 365 days there's not a lot of businesses that operate 365 days a year I don't know that I'm ready to say a number less than that um you know I I know that this use probably will not get used like that 365 days a year but I thought that was a little bit alarming in in the specific iup I think that condition if we did the Ice Castles you know that would be the only thing that would potentially be in the winter time every day yeah it's every day while they're open while they can be open yeah yep that would be only that we could run in the winter but otherwise it' be weather willing seasonal weather to that' be a cool thing to have in our city it would be yeah I guess one other thing is just and I don't know um the neighbors and I don't know your relationship to them but the dirt bike track is kind of right on the edge of your property and technically it is it's the leans and I don't know I'm not here long enough to know the relationship they own that little that weird L almost j-shaped property if they expressed concerns that would be the only but I I mean yeah but that would be my only other if if they cuz it's right by their property if they were salty about it then that would may be but if if they're not here and have no concerns not isue okay yeah if they were to sell it and the people who bought it had a concern would that be something then we could come back and and have a conversation yeah so again this is an interim use permit it's meant to have some type of a Sunset date so or Sunset date so it's either you can say it's of if it's tied to the property owner or it expires you know when the property is sold at a certain date or a certain event so um you know similar to the last project is you know eventually development is going to come it this might be appropriate today it might not be appropriate in the future 50 60 years from now it might be do we give a time limit on the apple orchard I'm sorry do we have a time limit on the apple orchard I no I would I don't know I there's there should be as an intern use permit just I this Fisher farm so I don't remember what that was I Dennis I don't remember either in fact I'm trying to remember even if it wasn't I it it was so it was the same per I know like with Fisher Farms they had I'm going to call it it a shortterm and a long longterm plan so we and I think we only approved the iup for the short term I don't think we have anything in the long because they don't have permanent structures yet yeah that's right they had to come back for the permanent structures so it might have been like a two they had three phases as far as I guess as far as the we have in here five years for the I we were we were we want to bump that up like like lawn smart basically like like um no limit or 20 years or I mean we don't you know our location I don't see us do we did five did I was proposing just because of the the plan for the road um here here I I would think the only thing that I would want to put a a time limit on that the only thing I have concern about is the motor cross from a a time limit just if it to Sarah's point if it's not working well with the neighbors or from that standpoint that's that's the only thing I would want to really constrict I mean I've been coming to Deans longer than I've been a Dayton residence for pumpkin disclose that should I disclose that I want no development in this area I mean if there was a concern of of any of the items does it can't isn't it buing can somebody come in and you can you know so with with any interm use permit or conditional use permit if uh there's a violation of that permit or there's some other I'm going to call a nuisance Factor um that can only be always be reconsidered by plan commission city council either for an amendment or revocation so you know let's say you put in a Sunset date of 100 years or whatever it is um it might come back before you next year if there's some kind of a a concern about uh I just noise or traffic I I guess I would only caution on that then I mean of of all the attractions up there and what you guys are known for and I I I mean I know people ride dirt bikes in the city because I can hear them from my house um it's just more of a is that going to take away the iupp and not get it back on your other operations that's that'd be the the concern I would have sure so this is one permit for for every activity it's not multiple right you're saying abusing the Motocross stuff and then if if that if that becomes an issue yeah just I would only caution just yeah I wouldn't be concerned about that you know obviously the the Motocross everyone is you know riding up and Road you know there's a wetland there in between in between where this track is and Lanes there a there's there's significant Wetland there anyway so I mean if we if there was the next One issues or nuti with the track I mean that'd be the first thing we would cross off so we could still have an iup and that's where I I don't know if it if it's trying to be creative with two separate iups or something I don't know if it it's worthwhile or not we it's something we threw on there I mean we're still looking at insurance it's it's just you know there's um a lot of variables with pursuing that even we don't want to stop them from being the premier motocross track and the for Midwest bringing people to our city Rochester do they what's the one down Canon Falls well there's the one up in River too sprek spring yeah can I send the guy that was riding around the ball fields after the snowfall over you guys ride there yeah yeah get them off our ball fields I mean if we're going to put a timeline I'd say like 20 years like they're upstanding business that's been here forever and they they run a good business I don't see any reason to hamstring them but just with daon Parkway coming through maybe in that time frame maybe at that point it's a good time to reevaluate but again if there's complaints then it comes to us anyway so like I don't know if I'd go any less than that on this particular use and for where they are and where they are in the development sequence phasing you know seem this area is pretty far out there so 30 years is this the 2050 area yeah yes yeah in 2000 it was 2020 was going to be fully developed 30 30 would put us at the 2050 I'd be okay with 30 yeah Nick the head nodding was unique head noding is good it's hard to if you haven't learned from me yet if I object I will speak all right thank you though any other conditions that we want to consider I me just the 11: p.m. as long as it's the 11 p.m. then I I had no other concerns make a motion to approve based on the time change oh you got something else well there's a question and then comment so the time change So within the packet there's a draft resolution that has a number of conditions yeah I'm reading through those right now um one thing we haven't consider like overnight camping and what not good things read these off and then if there's something you would like to change for the motion or I'll wait till there's a second though so we have a motion yeah do we have a second second all right okay motion includes the 30 year okay uh so the recommended conditions of approval so item one uh hours of operation shall be Sunday through Thursday 9:00 a.m. to 10: p.m. and Friday through Saturday 9:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. The Event Center May operate daily 365 days a year um so sah there there was uh I'm not sure what the 11:00 was oh it was in the in in their proposed ideas there was the Deans at night uh Dean at dark and it said evening operation hours 7:00 p.m. to 11:30 p.m. so I see that was but that wasn't in our resolution it was in what they proposed okay so no change to the 11 o' yeah so I guess I was just letting them know that as long as it was 11 I was cool with it so okay um my numbering that I'm reading off I missum the actual staff report um condition number two prior to indoor oper ations buildings shall be made compliant with building fire and health codes each building used for the event center shall be posted with a maximum o capacity and shall not exceed this capacity when I say capacity it's really occupancy um so the buildings that are used for uh The Event Center were built as agricultural buildings um once once there's customers there they then become a commercial building so it doesn't meet the code for commercial it does for agriculture so there are some modifications that will be needed uh prior to using the buildings for events uh condition three prior to operations the applicant shall submit an Emergency Operations plan to the city for administrative approval the plan shall address responses to fire weather conditions medical emergencies power failure bomb threats active shooter and other emergencies event capacity shall be based on the applicant's ability to effectively manage events based on weather and site conditions and Staffing Public Safety agencies May limit or close events based on weather and site conditions and the applicant's ability to manage event participants All Event Center activities shall be accessible by Emergency Services accessibility shall be at the discretion of the police chief Fire Chief and building official um so just to clarify in this is you you have a lot going on in your property and for everyone that's on your property they become your responsibility to to manage so you know I'm thinking of you know from the the city safety standpoint of you know how do you uh manage all these people if if something bad goes on and and what we're saying is that's really your job to figure it out and for us to you know uh accept it uh item four the structures and site improvements shall shall be compliant with the city code and public health requirements item five the applicant shall control nuisances such as picking up litter daily during events removing refu when full providing an adequate number of portable toilets based on event attendance directing traffic such that there is a minimum there is minimum congestion on 125th Avenue and East French Lake Road uh noise shall not exceed mpca requirements measured at residences and so when I'm referring to residences these would be uh the neighboring residences that are neighboring to the Deans or the dean family and just to clarify on that we have the we have like the property on it' be on the right side of the screen listed as one of as part of this iup correct so it's the next property over um that is also part of the Deans well but the next residence over that's not part of the iup well what if that house sells then then that would change the iup if this one sells if if this one sells it changes the iup correct this I I guess I just don't want to specifically tie it to that address and pro potentially tie it to ownership of the family right because if that sells the so the iup is tied to the applicant Y and so if it sells it's gone anyway it's it's gone and they would have to get a new iup because that the iup has all of those properties listed in the application uh it has one two three four five six p ps and so I just wanted to make sure that it's it's not the ones on here that were worried about the residents mpca noise it's the ones Beyond yes and just for clarification for npca and I'm going to use Sarah's example is you know if you have outdoor concerts you know it's going to people are going to hear it that doesn't necessarily mean it's a violation of npca requirement so we can just be whiny about it but we can't do anything about it I where I live you know far away I can hear Highway 10 um and it's I don't know how far it is but 10 miles maybe the train and the train yeah and the train y okay um item six temporary signs are prohibited from the RightWay excluding traffic control signs off-premise signs are prohibited excluding which also excluding properties from owned by the dean Heritage farms in Leo and Diane Dean and James and bernardet Dean so uh to clarify for this so I I know you you guys have had signs all over the place um the city did adopt a a ordinance can't remember if it was late last year or early this year that does prohibit off premise signs completely in the road right in the right away right in the road right away but it also it so an off- premise sign is a sign that's advertising something that's not on the business's property so you know so so this is a big item for you so I understand that but it could be private property um on your property not somebody else's yes how about County Road uh it it's never been allowed on the county road the county seems like they' had problem for years the count hasn't enforced it for yes it's state statute actually yes yeah it's not allowed on any anywhere it's state simar to realtor signs are you is it realtor sign allowed all sign sign they're not supposed to be there either one of these days I'm going to go pull them out of my corner but um there are I don't have Marty here there are a number of signs I've noticed that were pulled within the last week or two there's some new signs back again but that's just a a question on that on this one being the use and knowing the property where you get in and out of your parking lots there's kind of a there's a a big ditch there and it's hard to see where that entrance may be if there's not a whole lot of people there um would we allow a temporary day sign out there that's pulled back every night um there is a thing about traffic control signs being allowed yeah directing them to where parking is or that would count so just trying to help clarify and we'll work that out through the emergency operation Emergency Operations is probably isn't the the best name for it's more of an operations plan but we'll work that out more administratively of you know there a difference if you have 100 Vehicles versus a thousand I mean there there's been days where there's been 100 plus Vehicles there so um let's see item 11 it is anticipated that the applicant will adjust Event Center operations from time to time the property owner shall permit the city to inspect the properties during operating hours and at reasonable times for compliance with this IP and the Emergency Operations plan item 12 agricultural buildings located on The Farmstead at 17270 125th Avenue may be used for indoor seasonal storage um so we haven't talked about this but this is something that you've you're doing and plan to continue to do uh 13 overnight camping is prohibited uh oh I'm sorry this is actually item nine but I had to renum this um item 10 uh or condition number 10 the applicant shall preserve Heritage trees and significant trees in the north wooded area uh so this is where the haunted um hay ride would be um as defined as healthy deciduous trees 27 in or greater in diameter and healthy coniferous evergreen trees greater than 50 ft in height significant trees are defined as healthy deciduous trees 6 in in diameter and existing healthy common tree measuring a minimum of 12 in in diameter or an existing healthy caners evergreen tree uh measuring 12 in 12 feet in height so this is taken from the code it's hard to read read it verbatim uh so again the intent here is you know and I'm just going to say if you know corn prices go up really well and you just want to clearcut everything the point is is that you've got to preserve the the Big Trees uh item 15 item 11 all Lane alterations and structures within the flood plane shall comply with uh city code so this is in reference to uh there's a portion of the boner cross track that's within the 100-year flood plane uh so again the intent is um not to alter the flood plane such that it it uh floods somebody else out and I understand everything around you is most of the land around you is yours but and then uh item 12 the IEP shall expire in 30 years uh the applicant May apply for a new IEP so we have a motion in a second all those in favor I I I all those opposed motion passes 4 Z so sorry so this is not a public hearing we we do have one person on online but I believe that was part of your group okay Josh yeah was online not anymore so this will go to the city council on the 23rd Tuesday April 23rd 6:30 p.m. so it will be a public hearing we'll have a notice that is uh mailed out to Property Owners within 500 feet you know again are there any other property owners within 500 ft less than 10 I I know yeah so it it could be a big crowd yep that's what I'm saying thank you thank you than you you don't want to stay talk about garages it's 8:00 I think you said 8:30 I said 8:30 run on schedule all right uh this what item is no it's item um 9 C 9 C and D I don't know if they're combined C garage size C and D are they combined John uh they are well I'm going to combine them just be well I'm going to go off the agenda so they're they're separate on the PowerPoint I've got them let's I I think they're going to run into each other as the same let's discuss them together separate let's let's discuss them together and if they need to be separate motions they can be yeah all right so uh I've got a long list of items to discuss with the Planning Commission um the kind of the plan is to bite off the easier ones and and save the harder ones for when we've got more staff time uh so the easier ones are garage side and driveway apron so uh with garage sizes in all preference to that there is no correct answer other than the one that you you come up with um so for garages we have a minimum size that we require which is 440 Square ft and if I remember the math on this it's roughly 20 by 22 uh so I'm going to call the two-car garage um although the minimum is a two-car garage what we see being built in in most single family homes is a three-car garage um the complaint that we're hearing and I'm going to say the complaint is probably more so uh you know it's I'm going to say historically from the plan Commission in the city council is that garages are too small um so the way that I would look at it and I'm still get a preference is that everyone has their own opinion um and myself included it's not necessarily the size of the garage as it is the size of the garage stall um so the general intent is that uh you know all the homeowners vehicles or the residents vehicles are going to be kept in the garage um as well as storage for uh garbage cans and lawnmowers and uh snow blowers and bicycles and I'm sure as you guys know I mean there's a hundred things to to store in here so um so again I I guess my my goal really this is more of a discussion um if you would like to recommend any kind of an amendment uh please do so and this would come back to the Planning Commission as an ordinance Amendment but really you know staff's intention is really just to have an open discussion of how big of a garage should be required So currently we require 440 sare fet in R1 single family correct so we were require through basically a very big two stall or a three stall yes uh so the example that's shown on here know it's in the staff report it's bigger than 440 sare feet what who's complaining where is this coming from residents are saying their grades I've heard it from I'm going to say and I'm going to conclude myself in this uh from my previous life of being on the planing commission U individuals whether uh from council members and from planing commissioners so and the builders don't care no they don't so they're building spec homes yeah and and if you want to if you want to buy a house right now the only house you're buying is a spec house for the most part I mean that's there's very few new homes on the market um so if we do leave it up to the builders they're going to build the smallest thing possible garbage cans are going to end up outside so so I I had talked with John a little bit earlier today on this just we had had a discussion and Paul you may remember we had a discussion on this at one point back in the last I would say last three years for sure um on garage sizes and I think we came to a conclusion at that point we came to a con we came to a similar conclusion to what John was saying is like is it is it you know garage size is dictated a little bit by we have a number of we've had a number of back home builders lenars DR Horton ptis come in and they they have their here's our menu of options and this is what you get um I know when I built I was one of the first ones in the lar neighborhood we're in and the sales consultant didn't even understand what the the 4ot bump out was in the garage and so we didn't get it because he didn't explain it to us I would have gotten it Phil I would have gotten it had had we had that option and I could use it um so I I get a little bit where this is coming from I think the biggest issue I have with this is actually if we're going to have homes with three car garages on the front then let's make them three car garages on the inside there's no way you can fit three fullsize cars in my garage even even if you're or not doing anything but cars I I I guess a little bit I disagree cuz you can I've got a similar house here um I I we have the same for plan I got 23ft boat I've got a Tahoe and I've got a fulls siiz truck in there you got to be creative but I do have the four foot bumpo you have the four foot bumpo that just allows me to fit the boat absolutely I don't keep anything I'm say but but that's where I'm getting at is is where where this becomes the the issue is is some of the homes and and some of the homes in our neighborhood the garage door exterior garage door to the the exterior wall is 6 in yeah though then you can't open your door and you can't open your door not not necessarily saying if if you're going to make a three stall garage on a house let's make it three stalls usable three so you may want to dictate the width based on the number of stalls and and potentially the depth I mean sure um you know right I do I I have three cars in mine I can fit three cars in mine my third car is a 1950s Jeep that's 4x8 I mean it's tiny but it is a car so I can fit three in mine but not it's not three and and they don't need to be full or like Suburbans or tahos M but you know can you fit three um decent sized cars in there an SUV a minivan and a you know a a Toyota Corolla that the kids driving right um that's kind of where I'm looking at this is that feasible with the size garage we're building today with yeah with the lifestyle that people live today too I mean you live today and so I have a serious problem making it a a required minimum because like we do do not live that lifestyle I do not want a giant garage I do not want to waste my impervious surface area on a garage I'm not going to use if you tried to make me have a bigger garage I'd be pissy as hell about it so I I have a I I have a problem saying that you like you want to have that many vehicles great you should be able to and you should buy a house that allows you to have that many vehicles but you shouldn't say because I want a three-car garage the minimum anyone can have is a three-car garage and and what I'm where I'm going with this is not there's there's two parts to it part one is I think where I I have no preference in the fir first off in the agricultural or or large acre homes that have the space to build this where I have the problem with is where we have these tiny lots that we're building that have no room to build a shed on no room to build that extra space the Suburban neighborhoods that we're building that's that's where I have the problem with this not and and I I totally get it and I totally get that people can use the garage the way they want to um I've got two Neighbors on my street who have taken their third stall and converted it to their mud room because that's how they're using it and that's that's fine whatever someone does with it after the fact where I'm getting at is the builders are trying to get I'm afraid of the builders going smaller than they are now I think they're probably I wonder if there's I don't really like that we necessarily force a three stall garage so I wonder is there a minimum square footage for a two stall and a minimum square footage for a three stall knowing that we do want the market to control itself a little bit if a builder thinks they can sell a two stall and they can find a buyer that wants a two stall perfect you're probably not going to find a lot of builders that want to do that and probably not going to find a lot of buyers but if it's there it's there um and I think that helps to maybe encourage affordable house prices but I think we may maybe as a group decide okay if it's a two stall this is the minimum because you got to be able to fit a vehicle in it you don't want somebody to buy a house and say well I didn't think I couldn't Park in it I mean and and or I didn't know that I if I pulled in I had 8 in of my door open To Shimmy out of it because to your point my neighbor can't use his third stall because the door the doorway opening of the third stall garage is like a foot from the wall he just can't park in it because he can't get out so um I'd be okay with that two-car garage ice three car garages this size and that's kind of where I was getting at with this is is if we're going to build these and this is this more has to do with the speck hongs and the large Builders well it has to do with it has to do with um people taking advantage of other people and you say oh this is a three star you sell it as a three car garage when in fact it isn't that is taking advantage of people who maybe are buying their first home and haven't really had this opportunity and don't know to ask these questions that's not fair if it is a two car garage you should sell it for what it is so yes I'm I'm down with saying this is this and then they have to sell it as what it is if it's a two-car garage it's a twocc car garage advertise it correctly um but we also do need more affordable housing and like that's one way to do it I would potentially like to table this specific topic because there is legislation potentially rolling through the state capital right now that will completely limit our ability as a city to even aine on this whatsoever um I think okay yeah there's it's it's the missing middle um housing bill it's through both the house and the senate in different versions at this point it'll probably go into committee I don't know for sure if it passes both House and Senate it goes into committee and then into committee you know some people would say that's when reasonal reasonable things can occur and they can work out differences because each bill probably has some poison pills in it um but the missing middle right now I think council did discuss it a little bit or potentially passed a resolution on consent supporting local control and and and preserving local control it is possible that this local control is out of our hands relatively soon um but maybe if that doesn't pass the next step step for staff would be to research well what is a reasonable TW stall garage size dimensions what's a reasonable three stall garage size dimensions instead of having us come up with it on the fly up here maybe staff can look at some plans that they've received and and say okay you know a lot of the three stall garages we're seeing are x square F feet um and give us kind of a baseline to sure so I'm going to use uh in the neighborhood that I live in in which was more of a custom home builder um there's two standard garage sizes uh it's where each each stall is 12 feet wide and either it's 30 feet in depth or it's 40t in depth that would be amazing so that's pretty big though it's big yes you can easily open doors um you can store garbage containers on along the sidewall it's it's big enough to store things so I'm trying to pull up mine that I could measure because just for reference like I said I park a 23ft boat in it all year round a full-size pickup truck and a Tahoe and I've got a fridge in it and I've got four bikes and I've got my garbage cans um I've got a toolbox it's big enough it really is for what I would think is average yeah and and what I I think that's kind of where but you you do have the 4 foot bump out that is is not standard yeah so I mean that might that might be what our barometer is I don't know how big that is in square footage I'm trying to measure it yeah I think three points maybe it'll be four um I agree doing a two stall and three stall limit separating those so that there's the flexibility um I agree that we should make sure that the minimum stall sizes are appropriate that people can fit their items in the garage cuz even across the street in bazy Farms people that have to park on their driveway it's so short to the sidewalk that it fills up their whole driveway and sometimes you have to walk around their vehicle on the sidewalk because it's just there's not enough room right so we want to encourage storage in the in the garages um and then three I think we do need to be cognizant on how much of the garage takes up the frontage of the house I mean so of these developments it is garage with a tiny little narrow house right and when we built our house it was 55% was the rule and I actually had to skinny my garage up in order to meet the requirements that I didn't have too much garage to my house so I lost a little garage width from what I prefer to have and I wish I had I only have one foot from door opening to the wall and I wish I had two feet like I had originally drawn but um and that I think that's been removed because of all these new developments it's not feasible to do that but we do need to be cognizant because these neighbor NE hoods that are literally all garage doors when you drive down them is not and and that that is definitely not right that I want to I don't want that either um I mean I think we find like what's what's what's the the proper size with double garage door mine's 18 I don't know if that's bigger or smaller than normal and then you say another 2 feet on each side minimum or something right so you know if it's an 18 foot door that's 22 foot wide clear is your minimum right so you have room to open doors and stuff like that you know so that maybe is the math that you do and then we figure out what that depth is for you know a full size pickup 20 foot yeah it and actually what's I think you're going right at it is is let's think about what we could put in it and how we'd use it and then draw that box and measure that box box appropriately I misspoke earlier I thought 440 was a three stall garage 440 is not it's a 26 x 20 so it's a two stall that's the size of my two stall 26 by or that's 22 x 20 is 440 um my garage is 760 Square fet I'd say it's big enough um without the 4 foot bump out at 660 you take away my boat it's enough but you know but I think then it would you know if I'm looking at the plans what you're kind of saying is give yourself two feet to open a door I do on those and and it would mostly accomplish that yeah be able to draw a box around what we think is useful yeah and then yeah go from there but you're still suggesting tabling because of the state I mean the other the other I don't know that I'm ready to necessarily make a decision on it the other issue we're going to run into and and Nick you're probably the most familiar with these as as I am is you get a spec Builder here's here's the floor plans that lar is proposing to build in the new development here they're not going to change their garage plans just for us just for us are they John um well you're going to know more than I will but realistically you know they're going to follow what the city whether if the city code requires 22 foot wide garages they'll build it if not they're going to build what sells or what's economical what's economical okay so they will they they would come in and change I think if they know they can sell 500 houses they're probably not going to because of the garage if the city requires it they have to okay or they just don't build here right so so that's just something to consider and that was something last time this got brought up that was something that was a concern of the of the Planning Commission was are we going to be a tractable to development frankly I don't care if we're attractable or not from that standpoint I don't give a if they want to build here I they don't want to I mean cuz cuz it it May Scare Away National Builders I have a national Builder I would have preferred a a custom home on the lot that I did but it's just it is what it is could if we do want to slay this now and figure out a minimum now I think your method is the best that you suggested if we want to set a square footage now I mean it's it would it would have to go to council anyways we' probably have time to figure out where the state legislature lands by then anyway you said 440 was 440 is a 22x 20 which is our two it's your it's your two stall garage it's the double stall so it's a double stall or a two stall garage 18t door 22 ft gives you what two feet on each side so so we're already there we just don't have the width and the depth in that 440 do we really care I mean do we really care if someone builds a single stall that's double deep no I mean that yeah I I don't care no because they're going to have the room to do what the way they want to do it mhm and and at at the 440 the 22 deep 20 wide 22 deep Wood Park a fulls size pickup truck with the 6 and half foot box a lot of them aren't coming with the 6 and a half fo box but it would be able to do it you won't have room for for garbage containers though right at that at that but if you were WI if you were 20 if you were well if you were 20 by 20 Deep by 202 wide you would yeah you'd have room yeah which is means our minimum yeah your garage door your mainar 16 by8 16 I I mean I think I'm coming to the same conclusion I think we did last time I think we're are we over dictating it yeah I I almost feel like maybe the 440 is appropriate for a minimum we're saying the minimum you can build is a two stall if we wanted to go further you could say minimum two stall 440 minimum three stall this or minimum one stall maybe even we do allow one stalls I don't know probably not we I think the only change we made last time was the attached and detached in the medium density without basements I think that's where we increased it last time was because those those homes don't have any storage at all but they could have a shed not if you're in a attached oh yeah yeah they and the the r3s are typically um typically town home style neighborhoods but they're not Town Homes mhm mhm um they're perceived as town home style neighborhoods brayburn is R3 BR so arur we amended the code I'm going to say it's a couple years ago um I don't want to say to get rid of puds but to make r3d zoning probably more attractive to developers than puds and so uh a lot of the the newer developments coming in have been Zone R3 okay where do the Villas been that that's where I was thinking was the Villas um are they R1 Mo no I I'm think most of them are are three so Villas as an like the detached town so we still see I yeah that just seems odd to me because you know those Villas are intended for small families we require essentially a two two two yeah have a b up garage but just seems I toct especially for a builda where you might have one you might only have one car one car and you just added what the price of their I don't so the based on head nods um the consensus I'm hearing right now is an agreement on 22 ft width for a two-car garage um to try to figure out how to codify it you know either I can say you know two-car garage is going to be a minimum of 22 ft and and I'm hoping that you can assign sign a link as well you know a three-car garage would be uh if you add 12 ft onto it for a third stall it can so I my say you know homes are typically built in even uh increments you know 2 feet not one foot I was saying I was fine leaving 440 is 440 because you could either do 22 x 20 like yeah which way you Orient will depend on other things whether it's deep or wide part of me feels like it's it feels good enough but are we still hearing issues even with it the way it is I'm gonna lean on you guys as far as personal experience go s right mine's not big enough mine's not either I wish it was quadruple the size but I I want to respect the people that maybe don't want that much garage I don't want to force them to and that's and I'm that person I don't need more garage our garage is fine so I mean I feel like the more garage you have you just clutter it with you do if you have less garage prioritize and you don't buy as much garbage that you don't need or you get rid of the stuff before you bring in the new thing right you don't need the new thing until the old thing goes away you see all my cars in a driveway not in my Gage but I just to me again it is that dictating that you're dictating that your lifestyle is the lifestyle that everyone else must live and it it forces the price of housing up and that is not that's not what we should be in the business of doing is forcing houses to be as expensive as we can let the builders get I am on the I do however get the if you're a new home buyer you don't know the questions to ask and so someone can take advantage of you and sell you something that isn't actually accurate and that I have a problem with so that's why I'm okay saying like you can't sell a three-car garage that isn't actually a three car garage I think there's a reasonable minimum yeah and to me this is a perfectly reasonable minimum yeah and if if the issue is that people are selling three car garages that aren't then that's a different we solve that solution differently and it is not by forcing everyone to have a three car garage and do we end up in the same spot that we started um yeah so my interpretation is to leave the code as it is I my only suggestion if we didn't would be two stall garages are 440 three stall garages are uh plus 240 on that well 680 or 660 cuz that's another 20 x 12 and and that begs the question of I mean we had we had the U the person come in two weeks ago or not two weeks ago two months ago with the uh they wanted to convert the garage into a living space and so how do you how do you deal with that I think where this is I the only spot I actually think this is really applicable is when we with new development I don't think this is I don't think this is is can be part of the development agreement that that's well no cu the development agreement is for the developer and the builders come after that not every project has a development agreement yeah and it come that all comes after that but that's where I think this is applicable is is when we're seeing new large construction come in I don't think in a in a oneoff situation of someone's building a one house Sarah for example of of her own property and dictating what she wants there I don't I don't see this being I I see this is fine the way it is I think where the concern is is when we have these Builders come in and that's that's the the challenge of of all of this is I mean to your point of affordability of of how do we how do we Rectify so we're not getting cookie cutter in all garage but of the 50/50 or I mean it it's a tough mhm sure so enforcement wise you know if we change something it would be across the zoning District so we can't say if if you're you know Zone R1 but you're part of development you have this requirement but if you're not part of a subdivision you have a different requirement it has to be all the same so we would potentially create a bunch of legal non-conformities yes which is terrible you know building code changes every three years so whatever all of our houses are going to be non-conforming and that's where this this like the the couple my neighbors who converted their garage to mud room they still have the garage door there it opens all the way but can you even fit a golf cart in there and and it's just one of those it's like you know obviously we're not they're they'd be what legal non-conforming they would so I don't know your neighbors but they would still have to have a minimum 440 ft of garage space even with even with though they have three garage doors the doors don't matter they are doors don't matter yeah they are they'd have the they'd have the 22 x 20 which is 440 so they'd still be legal as it is still be legal the way it's written now the way it's written now and that's that's where I'm getting at is do we even have an issue I don't personally and I that's that's where when I read this I was I was right there I think we're a little I would love for everybody to be able to have bigger garages but at some point I think they got to dictate that at time of purchase and make a business decision when they do so I think our 440 is a reasonable minimum I don't you know I don't want Builders building really tiny garages that nobody can park in which I think that fixes and then after that make a motion to do nothing that one perfect do I have a second second all right okay you got your March on that one so the second item oh okay the second item well I guess just on on that one item you can fix the yeah do we I I've got a lot of opinions on this one we do we have to vote on that I suppose it's new business sorry yes so uh I I'd appreciate so if the direction is do nothing then that that's what we have a motion in a second to leave the code AS is for garage sizes all those in favor I all those opposed motion passes four nothing now you have your ERS John thank you that into your schedule yeah do nothing perfect I don't think it's what he was looking for but yeah that's all right this one's interesting okay so this next one is a discussion on driveway aprons and and I apolog nothing shows up on the screen here uh really not where it's legible um so this was also I'm going to say kind of a a complaint of about crack driveways and uh you know so in Dayton I don't know the exact statistics but I'm going to say we probably have more newer uh homeowners than we have older ones I don't mean age of the homeowner just the age of the home so uh you with with home construction ction you know you'll have an excavator that uh digs a hole for the foundation the foundation is poured uh dirt is filled in and then a driveway goes on um so the area that's filled in is not I call it it's not natural soil it's fill and it's fill not necessarily compacted to the same uh uh density as the natural soil is and so over time and with weather conditions and and water and such um that fill gets more compacted and which causes driveways to crack and sink so the question here is should the city amend the code to require uh concrete apron so an apron being um I don't have a good drawing well yeah this kind of shows up so this is kind of a side view of you know here's your garage here's the driveway whether it's asphalt or concrete and then this would be required to be a concrete apron we did have we don't have we do not we have I will start out and say that that problem will not be solved by by an apron that problem is a building code problem uh building code does not specify maximum compaction density outside the foundation wall um and until you get Builders to actually compact it this problem is solvable as Jason knows compact it that's it the builders don't compact it and and and they don't compact it because the building code well the building code doesn't require it and then they spend money that they don't want to spend they primarily don't compact from what I've heard I talked to some builders on this um because this is an age-old problem that many people have had it's it's nothing even new to the new developments we have here when a a a bill a basement is dug and then they pour the the foundation inside where the basement is it's it's an open cavity so they try not to compact on the other side of it because they might crack it yeah well in front of the garage it's just a stem wall it's actually not excavated on the back side there's a little bit of an open cavity there that they have to back fill as well but the risk of actually cracking it by doing reasonable compaction in front of it isn't the same as the risk of compacting the other part of the house where there is an open cavity on the other side and they damage the waterproofing that's around it potentially but there there is a real reasonable solution here but it's a building code solution and I don't see the building code Ever Changing to fix it that won't do it you're just bridging it so it's all you're you're going to bridge a a a hole that's eventually going to consolidate over time and and then that concrete will crack and then we'll they'll have to replace the concrete instead and and to add to kind of our earlier discussion so I had two neighbors one on either side of me get this done this winter uh one paid 10 grand one paid 15 grand for the apron for the apron yes and so if we're talking about affordability and and this is adding would ex add money add cost without actually fixing anything with yeah concrete is is you're adding a new material in it's not not fixing the issue I mean one of the things I when we had talked earlier today John that I exact same thing that Nick brought up is the compaction test you know and and can we it can it be part of a building permit um to get maybe a two compaction tests in front of the driveway in front of the in front of the house before the driveways poured it would have to be compaction tests like a civil engineer would know cuz if you've ever seen a compaction test if you've gone to a house that they tried to pour you thought you had suspect soil typically these building pads need to be certified building pads if they're fil sites or virgin material and you come out I talk to my building official and he goes there there're been times where they thought that potentially the bearing soil was suspect they come there's a ball that they drop on it and they go they drop it and they go they determine from that standpoint well we know this is 4 feet down it's a frost that compaction is happening way down here that the ball that you drop on that is not actually going to tell you you'd have to do nuclear density gauge you'd have to do sand cone you'd have to do something of a proctor density standpoint which means you're hiring AET hgo and again added cost added cost of which they they're not actually there for the general construction of a home those trades I'll call them those testers are not involved in the build of a home at all period I I wish the builders would self self-regulate themselves but this problem occurs four five six years later they're gone um I really wish the builders would self-regulate themselves on it because it is such an easy issue it's just it's just effort is all it is it's it's a jumping jack right it's it's a motorized tamper a jumping jack in front of it and lifts and and you're done and and me personally I when our house was built it hopefully won't settle in front CU I knocked on the neighbor's door and I said hey can I use your garden hose I'm going to give you some money for the water that I use and I I flooded it right and and you can self- compact that way um but these houses also don't have running water at the time that the footing in Foundation is poured so you know I don't want to be overly aggressive on this item because I just don't think we can solve it with certainly with an apron we can't if there's a possibility with the inspection of the house maybe but it doesn't there's no building code yeah youon that specifies it but the so I've seen some houses where it gives in and the tar tar drops right away mhm concrete will hold longer but it'll crack I've got an apron and and I can tell there's there's a void under there yeah um and I can hear it too but it hasn't cracked yet but I'm just wondering the concrete probably just pushes the problem out it extends it yeah I mean eventually it'll it'll crack you know there's a lot of sidewalks that get poured on kind of mushy soil and they're not repeatedly loaded by a vehicle and they still crack I mean it also depends too though though I saw the neighbor to the the east of me or the west of me his I saw his get poured they put in a rebar slab that rebar could be spanning spanning the void you know for all eternity and on a normal vehicle it might not ever have an issue well and hopefully the compaction or the consolidation already occurred right right it's you know what what my fear would be is we've got an extra $3,500 or whatever for the Builder to do this and it doesn't fix the problem underneath it's it cracks maybe it doesn't you know typical ones are settling in 3 to 5 years and this cracks in 7 to eight years instead because concrete is is able to bridge it a little bit longer it's still a problem within the typical ownership cycle of a house and I would just love to see that fixed from the builders instead but yeah so does this provide a a Band-Aid for people buying new hom so because it does span that excavation Gap and it takes longer for it to to craft it or or tip or whatever and then you can mudjack it and get it back to where it is where asphalt you have to tear it out and redo it so what does this add to the cost I mean you're doing less tar but you're doing concrete is it it's just an extension of the sidewalk or is it the concrete guy's already there doing side maybe it's a push in it really so I mean the 10 grand I mean I don't that did those people get multiple bids I mean that's crazy town um but yeah during a regular construction I you made three grand there there's also removal with those and and recompaction and other things right so there's other cost yeah bring in reality the Builder is going to sequence this in the way that's most economical for them I'd be shocked if it's more than 1,500 bucks I mean they pour it when they pour the garage for yeah I mean mine's mine's been tipping and I've had it mudjack once actually my garage floor um had to get mud jacked too because the whole garage was a bathtub that had to get filled up and I was on him from day one about compacting it properly he used the green block as a reason why he couldn't compact it then the ground froze and then you know he was he tried water and you know my whole garage floor is already sinking and stuff so yeah it's it's an issue but the mudjacking gave me probably 10 more years plus with my apron yeah the mudjacking is a good thing you can get underneath that it's a smaller you know it's a smaller cost fix as opposed to repouring with asphalt you know taken out because you got a 3in gap now your driveway so I still feel like it's it's better than we have now and knowing that the builders aren't going to self-regulate and do the compaction um I I think I'd be for it I I think it provides new housing at least a little better product seems reasonable yeah I wish there was a better method yeah to do it to just get the compaction to occur and I and I thought about this ever since the packet came out of what could you do you you I I don't think you can write a city ordinance to amend building code I think that'd be kind of weird um so from there you know I I just I don't know what you can do to Force the Builder to do it right so then I I probably go to your method of it's probably better than nothing and it and I hadn't considered the mudjacking it does provide more feasible repair if it if if potentially they can get to it before it cracks so but then should we should we ask him to put rebar in it well that's that's just it is if we're going to do this trck it stays tight if if we're going to do this we should put rebar in it which is added cost I mean yeah just to match though right no it's it was like number fours okay at least what my neighbor got in his okay I mean yeah but I mean the M the mesh will hold the crack tip too though right I mean that's all you're actually looking to do yeah for the most part I I don't think he D it into the garage floor I hope not he thought about it but keep him two separate things I I advised him not to yeah garage floor is not moving it's sitting on a footing that's four feet down right everything in front is Clay it'll move I don't know you have any thoughts on this one I have a gravel driveway yeah um throw more gravel yeah actually sounds better and better the more I think about it just put more gravel right up there every well we do have to get the gravel off the grass Every Spring which my husband hates um he would like it paved and I like do you have any idea how much it's going to cost have you seen our driveway um also anyway so I I have no strong opinion uh we can't dictate building code well my only thought is if we put something in our code but you're average I am not your average resident who like studied the code before I decided to build in Dayton because I needed to I needed my impervious service I needed to know how many animal units I could have I needed to know how big I could build the structure but I if I would have read that code i' been like oh compaction is an issue I'm going to talk to my Builder about compacting in front but like they average person doesn't read our code so it's not like we can put anything there to trigger a conversation from the customer to the Builder um and I tried that I tried to talk to build with all I yeah um so but I I don't have a strong opinion on this one so I would I would go with people who know more and have more experience I think it's better than nothing I just my only concern would be adding cost to the house housing is already so expensive um that would be my only concern so I'm going to throw an oddball one in here for more from an aesthetic standpoint if you look at in my house in particular the way the sidewalk from the front door comes in if we were to do this of a 4 foot those two concrete panels would not ever line up yeah and it would look really weird in a lot of a lot of the the the types of homes that we get built by the spec Builders and so is that cuz you're landscaping or why is there the the the sidewalk the the way the sidewalk comes right into the driveway now like my neighbor's house is his garage is set back from his front porch mine's the other way around my my porch is is you know if we go back to the the garage drying that John had up it would work here where the house is set back from the garage mhm but where the house isn't there's a good distance there but my sidewalk comes right in and it just it it would aesthetically look weird it's not how it a lot of the builders are that way maybe the pillers should think more about their designs I don't disagree with you on that um I'm just throwing a an you know an oddball Devil's Advocate thing in here you know are we going to require this apron on all the town homes that are built all the every every driveway every driveway other than gravel what if somebody were to replace their driveway well do they need a driveway permit we don't do driveway permits yet um not for replacement if it's a new or expanding driveway then we do require permit a per okay so yeah um I mean when my neighbor was getting his quote I was like I was half thinking about it cuz I have one spot it's about a foot by a foot where water pools but it doesn't bother me um I thought about it and I was like well how do I tie this into my existing sidewalk and if you walk around our neighborhood all the all the neighbors have that sidewalk coming in at the same spot more or less so they need to make it like six feet or is it I it would just look weird with the way some of the houses are you'll never get it right yeah I'm a little bit concerned with requiring this I think we think we talk we have this conversation in in basically those production Builders are where a lot of these issues are occurring yeah um you know if somebody were to go build a garage out on your if you were to build a garage on your lot right um I think the odds of having a settlement in front of that because you maybe the contractor may be different don't want to disparage the contractors that are here that may not be the issue or say you wanted to expand your driveway newer expanded driveway an expanded driveway would require a permit your garage was there for 30 years it's done settl yeah U you know or your grad it's out it doesn't on it's something on a slab on grade I think I think those those definitely exist if it's just a garage all by itself don't have this issue and they would be required to put an apron in front of it and that would potentially add cost to not just the house but that that would be because particular that case they're not getting like they don't have any other concrete need my apron so you would you it's because I see in the middle of building you had the concrete guy there anyway what's the deal adding a little bit more but if you're doing a new asphalt driveway on an existing you got bring in a concrete sub just for this little itty bitty strip that would you know that would that would not be cheap to bring in a concrete sub just to do that if you were going to have an asphalt driveway so that it would have to be cart blanch it would have to be across the board that's a little bit of a concern too driveways right what's that not not necessarily expanded newer expanded driveways yeah yeah or expanded driveways or driveways that didn't exist it's really a problem with the new home yeah it's a new home problem and and then the materials to wash it sounds like yeah yeah in a new home you're already there would staff be interested in having a conversation with their building official to see if there is a option to find a way to get the builders to compact in the front I know I had a conversation with mine that he didn't think that that was all that feasible but I I've not talked with or billing official I mean we we've it would require a back fill inspection be a they'd have to schedule a back fill inspection probably and then we'd have to be there while they back filled in front of the garage and we'd have to see them compacted with a jumping jack or another compactive device in lifts because the building code does say it needs to be compacted in lifts but it doesn't say how big of the lifts doesn't say whether it has to be compacted it just needs to be done in lifts so the building code is super vague yep so I'll say when when we do driveway inspections we're looking at is it there and is it 28 ft or L with at the curve and that's it you schedule so many inspections with the build of a house right you at dig at footings you just don't do it at backfill you do it at framing there's so many inspections that need to get scheduled is it possible if the city did want to solve the actual root cause add another inspection but the question would be there isn't a performance standard for them to meet so you wouldn't be able to test for it but the building code does say compacted in lifts compacted and in lifts it's kind of open for interpretation but I think there's probably a lot of building codes that are open for interpretation as well that might get handled differently from local to local that would also require the inspector to actually do their job though I mean we just had a big building built and it got inspected and the inspector missed some stuff my hay guy who's a structural engineer did not miss it um so he's the one who informed me that there was some very key pieces that were not in my barn so I contacted the Builder and he came back and put him up but the it had passed inspection um so yeah we can do all these things but if the inspectors don't just rubber stamp everything and walk out again what then doesn't do any good anyway I I would say the city does hire an inspection services team so the city could hire a different team or higher intern or whatever whatever whatever the appropriate resolution is to that at some point somebody's going to not do their job right and then you know it takes hours and hours and hours to build a house the inspector is there for what 10 hours maybe if you had it all up yeah you're just not going to catch everything my hay guy walked in and immediately said where are these and I'm like what are you talking about he's like these you need to have these diagonal braces here and I was like uh I don't know and and I was like my it was inspected and past he's like it shouldn't have and you need to contact your Builder and he gave me word for word what to tell my Builder so I was like I had the same thing when I built my for seon forch and my my Roofing guy came the inspector came out past me Roofing guy came out and said you need to add this this and this before I'll roof it and he said that he he said that it's not per code yeah I was so mad and I'm very grateful I have to my hay guy happens to be a structural engineer like impressive combination it was I love that I love Warren he is one of my favorite side J which one yeah yeah which one I I give my suggestion hopefully for staff to talk with the building official though because I I I question whether or not what I even suggested is feasible because a lot of what's get it gets inspected is the work gets done and then it gets inspected what I'm suggesting is the inspection would happen at the time the work is occurring which is I'm very used to that in the line of work of civil engineering that's how that works we don't typically come back and inspect after it's done we inspect during it but in building inspection it it the nature of that works just different and we only have one I maybe we've got multiple building inspectors but we've got multiple developments and we we may have 15 foundations getting backfilled at the same time we may not have the staff to be able to fulfill that and so there's you know that could be touchy too I just I wish you could get the Builder to self-regulate and do a good job on the compaction in the front but I don't know how to do that so on the question of should we require driveway a you mean back to the point yes so we've kind of gone in a circle little bit so so see three things here one is we table it and ask Council to or so either way there's not an ordinance written so you can't you can't recommend approval of something that doesn't exist but you can give me direction yeah we we could request that you talk to the building official and ask for their recommendation on how to handle it if there's a way through there Channel I'm pretty sure the building official is going to point to the city engineer and say help yeah fair so I mean it's probably not the best route right technical feasibility of inspecting all that actively as it's being poured is is challenging super challenging um second option we have here is to say we don't need it because as you stated it's not the best method to fix it and the third option is it's better than what we have now it buys the homeowners a little bit more time before a failure and the fix could be cheaper because you can mudjack it as opposed to replacing your asphalt and and my question would be is this it a wash size or cost wise so and if it is and I mean you could just say you know two feet or greater to fix the continuity problem because having a two four foots overlap that looks kind of funky but if you just got a twoot I don't know it may be a wash at a new build but it's you know it's obviously definitely not on a a situation but it might be the best option we've got and I I do think that's what we're here for yeah I wouldn't require it for rebuilds right or existing properties for new driveways only for brand new driveways in new construction I would I would only requireed on new construction structures not even new driveways cuz your building's already comp like your building your building should already be set s it would so I'm thinking you know the enforcement side of it we would before we would issue a certificate of occupancy for the home it needs a driveway in including the apron yeah that could work yeah if it was for new builds only and yeah and if it's tied with the co that's only going to be for new builds I mean we we require Landscaping so I mean that's how we enforce that is tying it to the co yeah when I refer to the I mean I understand that you guys understand this but for anyone watching this the cosos is certificate of occupancy that you need to live in the house permanently you we we issue tempor would only affect driveways into houses though not like if you have a detached garage does that need detach is probably slab on grave yeah so that's not going to have the same issu no Foundation yeah but it won't have the it will need the back do they have a footing on a I guess it depend it depends on maybe it depends you could if it's got a second story I would I would just I mean we're not going to see new construction production Builders building detach garages no so we could we could just leave it at that yeah I think it's better than nothing without causing a headache for other things I don't know how you do it on the building side don't need it I don't know how you do it on the building inspection so I just don't think it can work I agree logistically we're not set up for that so then are we I don't know where we're going does anyone want to make a recommendation for John to draft up an ordinance on this I'll make the recommendation to include a 4 foot apron concrete apron as drawn in our packet for new con home construction garage driveways however you want to word that so um attach garages on new construction yes prior to getting a SE yes second all right we have a motion in a second all those in favor I I I all those oppos all right motion passes 4 Z for John to come up with an ordinance I'm sorry I was writing who is the oh Motion in second yeah okay sorry bad all right forgive you next item uh is isn't that it no uh announcements yes um notice and announcements yeah so looking uh we're hoping to or planning to have a council workshop on Tuesday April 23rd to discuss the master plan I guess my question is are you you guys available so this would be I I conflict I overlap it's my council meeting nights uh I don't know if I I teach technically I teach Tuesday and Thursday nights but I have a co- teer so she's like covering class but um April has been really busy so and her dad is dying so I'm not sure she can cover class for me so I don't think I can be there it's a workshop that would go 5:30 to 6:30 or something 5 to 6:30 5 to 6:30 I I actually have a okay for 5 to 6:30 I I could I I I would have to leave promptly on time in order to make it to my other meeting okay I I'm hearing the majority though can't so in May and Beyond I'm fine because my semester's done then okay I guess maybe what I'll do is just kind of send out an email to to the Commissioners and and counsel and work on a date so gener generally this would be on a council night or a plan commission night so the Planning Commission on first uh Thursday of the month and the Council on the 2nd and fourth Tuesday so sometime in May we'll look at okay um otherwise the next plan meeting for the Planning Commission is Thursday May 2nd um we will have I know that we will have a uh project for quick trip on May court so this was uh recently heard by or concept plan was reviewed by um the Planning Commission um and then otherwise I'm suspecting we'll have a dozen interm use permits for home businesses I'm just kidding um that is the the only item I think we have at at this time I we may have a a second con should say first concept plan for a residential project not quite sure about that but where um in the 2050 area so within our comp plan we have a sewer staging plan that goes by decades and so this area I believe is in the post 2050 area interesting oh said the one okay all right make a motion to adjourn second all right we have a motion in a second to adjourn all those in favor I I all right meeting is adjourned e e