[0:00] uh this is a a session that we've done annually with the council um almost every year since I've been here and [0:06] probably long before that um in previous years it has been a much smaller group [0:12] um in last couple of years uh We've expanded the the group of people that participates in this to include uh our [0:18] directors and even U some other folks that have individual kind subject matter expertise so before we get started I'm [0:25] going to turn it over to Sarah in just a second she's going to outline the day uh but I'd like to start the day was saying [0:30] thank you this is a whole this is a whole day of your time on a Saturday a beautiful [0:36] Saturday um but I want to thank you for spending your time with us both every all electeds and and uh staff that are [0:43] here too there's been a lot of prep that's gone into this session uh we hope it's helpful and informational to the [0:48] council and with that awesome awesome awesome let me start by by saying thank you a de a deep [0:56] in heartfelt thank you for inviting me back again um I take that kind of seriously uh okay so what are we doing [1:03] today actually let's do housekeeping first housekeeping um most of you have been in [1:10] almost all of you have been in meetings with me before so this should sound familiar but in the category of meetings [1:15] with Sarah what I care about today is how all [1:21] of this is participating how you're listening how you're engaging how you're thinking about things um and so that's [1:28] that needs to be my focus and I need your help with making sure that happens and that means a number of things that [1:35] means we've got drinks in the back um and coffee across the hall keep yourself hydrated we've got snacks in the back [1:42] we'll have lunch on midday keep yourself fed and sugared it's amazing um especially in the afternoon what a [1:48] little bit of hydration and a little bit of sugar can do for for mental function and and Clarity and those sorts of [1:54] things it really is extraordinary um sitting all day is good [2:00] for any of us some of us do entirely too much of it um it can get us sort of focused and tunnel visioned if you need [2:06] to stand up stretch there's not a lot of room to Pace um but if you need to lean against the wall cuz your back hurts or [2:13] you want to sit on the floor whatever it takes to keep your your head this part [2:18] engaged um you take care of the rest to make sure you can okay we've got Brakes [2:23] filt in along the way but they won't necessarily align with your needs you got doors there restrooms back out [2:30] toward the front and around um these little [2:37] monsters I I I think they they drop they certainly drop our attention dramatically and they may even drop our [2:43] IQ depending on the research um just by being in the room so if we can get them [2:49] face down get them to stun get them get the ring tones off all that sort of stuff um as much as we can I know that [2:56] not everybody necessarily can um I'm using mine the clock so right as many of [3:02] those distractions as we can take away it be great given the weather I have mine on do not disturb but given the [3:08] weather across the Midwest today um I don't know if my turning the do not disturb on will turn off any tornado [3:15] alarms that may be going off at my home or my parents' home so if that happens I [3:21] apologize uh we are set to go until 4:15 and then there's a field trip does [3:28] everybody is everybody able to stay until 45 as far as you know things happen I [3:34] know but anything out a little bit early but and Nick is here in the morning but [3:40] not in the afternoon right Nick gotcha gotcha you guys on the end if I start ignoring you um just throw something at [3:49] me just avoid the okay the uh we are being recorded FYI we [3:56] are being recorded and um it's not a huge room and it's pretty good Acoustics room but this is still a distance so [4:03] let's everybody try to sort of aim our voices to write about here right [4:09] everybody aim in to here engage that diaphragm um outside [4:15] Clarity is is more important here if you can't hear somebody don't be embarrassed um ask him to repeat because again this [4:22] needs to be about hearing each other and thinking as a group and all of those [4:27] sorts of things right any other [4:34] housekeeping all good all right so the agenda what are we doing today um today [4:43] is uh deep diving into stuff as you know um this is at [4:51] least part three of this particular conversation on this cycle right you started before Christmas you had a [4:58] number of uh deep Di into Services last month I believe and now [5:04] today um we're looking at um some recommendations and um how to move [5:11] forward the order of the agenda sort of very intentionally [5:18] previews um Scott and Ari's recommendations [5:23] upfront and then presents more detail on um projections and benchmarks s and um [5:32] Staffing obligations and and and those sorts of things afterward and then we've got time in the [5:40] afternoon to focus on um discussing the merits of those recommendations at the [5:45] beginning right so it very intentionally tries to present the whole picture before we get into the merits of [5:52] individual recommendations I say that because I know as soon as Scott and Ari start [5:58] making recommendations you're going to want to die di into is this good bad or ugly and I hope that the first run at [6:04] the beginning is about setting the stage and an opportunity to clarify so that we can get the whole [6:11] picture first does that make sense okay um and I will I will gently remind [6:18] you of that but if you if you say no then you say no any questions about the agenda or [6:25] what we're doing yes ma'am um we submitted Council [6:31] were given the opportunity to submit ideas for Budget reductions when are those going to be [6:40] covered it it won't be today we're still collecting them we haven't had a chance to meet with everyone yet um so those [6:47] are still coming in the process of of putting the budget together okay and as part of this morning's presentation I [6:53] think PA's going to go over where PA PA's going to go over go over the um the [6:58] timeline of of next steps I think in the process all [7:04] right does everybody know everybody in the room Nick do you know everyone Nick do [7:10] you know everyone Zoe do you know know everyone okay just checking just checking all right so in that case not [7:17] going to do around Robin coun but one last reminder if you're in this room you're in this room [7:23] for reason okay that means and that reason is not to sit and listen and and sit and [7:30] be pretty although you may be sitting perfectly still and listening and being pretty but you're in this room for a [7:36] reason whether you're a decider or deliberator or provider of information and experience all of that comes to the [7:43] table you're all equally part of this conversation all day you don't all make the decisions but you're all part of the [7:50] conversation you hear me okay all right [7:55] anything from Council Members before we get started anything that you want [8:01] to I would have a comment I I see pros and cons to the proposal that you made [8:07] of um going through all the presentations and then holding questions until the end because I think you know [8:14] in real time I found both both ways to be good ways to do it I'm just not sure [8:21] what the best way is to do it here because there'll be questions that come up in people's minds as presentations [8:26] are being made and are better dealt with in real time than they are being held [8:32] until the afternoon to ask a question about a particular proposal from us from [8:37] a person on the budget I'm I'm not asking to hold questions I'm asking the [8:42] whole discussion of the merits so clarifications of meaning and questions [8:48] absolutely we should absolutely be doing those I just don't want to get caught in the in the merits of them before we have [8:53] the whole picture I think that'll be a better way to do it does that make sense clarification thanks for the clarification absolutely absolutely [8:59] thank thank you for that all good all righty well then I think Scott [9:06] it goes back to you my dear video yeah let's do the video Jen can you help [9:11] us we wanted to start off on something fun and Jen's team came up with a great [9:17] idea and I think it turned out really well so quick reminder and overview of what [9:25] we've accomplished in the last year [9:35] from providing service directly to Ed residence to improving and maintaining parks and infrastructure and from [9:41] keeping the community safe to offering activities and Recreation that bring people together you will see work toward [9:47] the city's mission in every department at every site every day in 2024 this [9:52] commitment took shape in countless ways from major infrastructure upgrades to new community programs each Pro project [9:59] was designed to enhance the quality of life in let's take a look at some of the key accomplishments that made an impact [10:06] last year we expanded outdoor recreation opportunities with six miles of new mountain bike trails at Brar Park we [10:13] repl aging playgrounds at wal Ridge and Todd parks and added a brand new playground at the Courtney Fields [10:19] complex we continue to work on developing plans for the investment in Fred Richard's Park and Brar Arena we [10:26] also took additional steps towards enriching e art with planning for a brand new art center with henan county [10:32] in their new C library Beyond Recreation and the Arts we also made important strides in public safety last year [10:39] construction began on a new Fire Station 2 to enhance emergency response and security cameras were installed in the [10:45] downtown area to help keep 50th and France safe in addition the police and fire departments piloted an alternative [10:51] Response Team improving how we respond to mental health crises with care and expertise these projects reflect our [10:58] ongoing commitment to saf and wellbeing for all residents investing in infrastructure is essential to keeping [11:04] running smoothly and sustainably in 2024 we took on major projects to improve [11:10] resilience and reliability across the city a Morningside flood infrastructure project helped reduce flood risks for [11:17] homes and streets while the replacement of sanitary sewer lift station number six ensures the continued efficiency of [11:24] our Wastewater system we also completed the lead service line inventory toid identify and address outdated water [11:31] lines and Public Works finished a three-year project to replace Warren Avenue North of 66 Street these [11:38] improvements will support the community for years to come behind the scenes many essential Services kept a diner running [11:45] efficiently in 2024 the city successfully administered five elections ensuring our residents could make their [11:51] voices heard additionally our human resources team oversaw the hiring of 37 [11:57] full-time employees about 10% of our Workforce bringing fresh talent and expertise to departments across the city [12:05] investing in people ensures that we continue to meet the needs of AD residents now and into the future last [12:11] year we launched a new employee website ad to improve internal Communications and collaboration and we lay the [12:18] groundwork for a learning management system the din learns to enhance our training and professional development in [12:25] 2024 the finance department issued rfps for audit services and Banking and [12:30] custody services to maintain strong financial oversight looking ahead we developed the 2025 2030 Capital [12:38] Improvement plan to guide future Investments to enhance safety and emergency response and to improve [12:44] Community engagement we identified and standardized addresses for all apartment buildings in Adina and in public health [12:52] we launch new licensing software to streamline processes and improve Service delivery last year the place Department [12:59] also invested in new technology with the addition of license plate readers throughout the community and advancements in our use of smart 911 to [13:06] better communicate with the public during emergencies the city's technology improvements may not always be visible [13:11] but they make a lasting impact on our community building a strong team is key to delivering great service to our [13:16] community in 2024 the city really started to see benefits of a new police cect program creating a PIP plan for [13:23] college students studying law enforcement to become our future officers from infrastructure improvements to Public Safety [13:29] enhancements new recreation opportunities to investments in our Workforce 2024 was a year of progress [13:36] for a d every project program and initiative reflected our commitment to building a safe vibrant and resilient [13:43] Community as we look ahead to 2025 staff remains dedicated to serving Adina with [13:49] Integrity quality and service [Music] [13:59] okay a little bit about lot [14:05] offf [14:15] now so we've thought uh when we've had these meetings in the past U it's it's a [14:21] good reminder to take a look at what our mission and vision are so our mission for the city of ad is to provide [14:26] effective and valued Services maintain public infrastructure offer Premier public facilities and guide the [14:33] development and Redevelopment of lands in a manner that sustains and improves high quality life enjoyed by residents [14:38] and businesses from a staff standpoint we take that as a statement from the [14:44] city council to how and what we should be doing as as uh as the people that [14:49] make these laws work in the city the vision for the city of ad is to be the preeminent place for living learning [14:55] raising families and doing business this vision is distinguished by liable environment effective and valued city [15:01] services sound public infrastructure and balanced land uses and Innovation again more R take these as statements about [15:08] how we should do our work and and this is what we have done with our Council uh [15:13] ever since I've been here again we've taken a look at this a [15:18] number of times as well one of our fundamental uh principles for our budget budget pillars and budget values they've [15:25] been pretty consistent over the last four or five years [15:30] the 2627 budget process will resemble past budget processes with some notable [15:37] exceptions and one of those is that we have been talking to city council members in February and March about what [15:44] your goals were what your concerns were what your questions are and what your ideas are in terms of a a budget for 26 [15:51] and 27 so those policy discussions and decisions come from the council we've [15:57] already had discussions at even starting as early as last year about 26 and 27 uh [16:03] on along the service level discussion line so those are areas that we are looking for guidance from the council we [16:10] continue to the the what what are we doing as a city on the city management [16:15] side uh this is the how how are we going about implementing the council's uh [16:21] decisions around work plan and budget in efficiency uh how do we minimize uh [16:26] negative service impacts uh and how we do this from an internal service level [16:31] how do we optimize those internal service levels for for the folks that we work with here included in the packet uh was a was [16:39] a a memo from me uh to Mayor counsel uh on March 15 so today's day and we wanted [16:46] just to go over some of those uh some of those ideas we've heard already um [16:52] calling them recommendation initial recommendations is fair it's probably almost pre- reccommendations in terms of [16:58] we talk a little bit about uh what our timeline is for the year uh but this as [17:03] I noted earlier is an early early start for us so when we've taken a look at our [17:09] budget uh priorities for the upcoming year we really are looking at three pretty broad uh buckets one is our debt [17:17] service one is our Capital spending and one's our operating spending there's lots of other things we're looking at [17:23] but you can almost you could almost take everything we do and fit them into one of those three categories so so we've [17:29] been looking so far on what are some ways we can decrease our Levy because [17:35] we've heard from Council during the last budget process that Levy management and particularly Levy uh slowing the [17:42] trajectory of growth in the property tax levy is important to you so that's important to us important to me when we [17:49] look at ways to do that we can do that on the enhanced the revenue side uh or [17:55] reduce reduce the expense side we're going to suggest we do a balanced approach and do some of all of that um [18:02] on The Debt Service side we recommend that we pay our debt Nick it's a good idea right probably yeah so we'll do [18:10] that and take we're taking that as given and P's going to go through some of our debt service obligations that we've [18:16] already agreed to and some that we're looking at for the future uh on some on some operating and and capital [18:24] expenditures that Council has already seen and give us some direction on already in terms of revenues uh some of [18:29] the areas that we want to start with is is trying to get a hold or not trying to but getting a hold of our credit card [18:37] fees a lot of organizations a lot of public organizations are doing the same kind of move some have done it already [18:44] uh we want to go into it full um on a on a full basis in 202 well 2025 and 2026 [18:52] to to not uh eat the uh the credit card charges that we have in the past which [18:59] has been uh something that we have done um we want to not do that anymore so [19:05] that brings back either uh it brings back hundreds of thousands of dollars that we would assess back to the folks [19:10] that use credit cards with us to pay for services we also think that it's time that we do uh some analysis on the [19:17] services that we provide to make sure that uh that we are covering uh service [19:22] costs with service charges so whether they're building permit fees or other kinds of user fees we want to make sure [19:29] sure that we're collecting the full expense that we are putting uh out as a community we can't we can't collect more [19:36] because there has to be a Nexus between the cost of the service and the and the size of the fee but there's always the [19:42] possibility that we've got some that we haven't increased very what very much and the cost of providing them has has [19:48] increased so we want to take a look at that this year and we think there's some Revenue enhancement that comes from that [19:54] the next item is franchise fees and franchise fees uh is a pretty interesting Revenue source for us it's [20:01] one that we have a lot of control over uh we don't have complete control over the timeline for it and that's part of [20:07] our part of what we want to discuss with you today uh we have to we have to [20:12] comply with uh the Minnesota Public Utilities Commission and the and the big Public Utilities they have some internal [20:19] timelines for how they receive our requests and how they Implement them and it's really a long period it takes [20:25] before when you tell them here's what we want our franchise to Fe the franchise fees to be uh it takes at least 6 months [20:33] and maybe more for them to actually get that phased in on the bill so we want to talk about a couple things related to [20:40] franchise fees one is the size of the franchise fees uh two is what's the [20:45] basis what's the methodology for charging franchise fees uh we had some discussion last year about should it be [20:51] a percentage should we charge a 2% franchise fee uh or more uh across the [20:57] board so that residents businesses and Industrial customers are all paying the same percentage or should we charge a [21:03] flat fee and so that everybody's paying the same flat feed together uh [21:08] regardless of what their energy use is perhaps so uh there are some pluses and minuses to both and we want to talk [21:14] about those as our budget process goes on this year the second though is how we use the money um in our in our system [21:21] when we put our franchise fees together for the first time we tied them uh by [21:27] Council action very uh specifically to a certain certain qualities certain program needs and [21:33] certain expenses one is public is The Pedestrian and cyclist safety fund uh so [21:39] the Staffing that went with that the building of trails building of sidewalks uh painting of streets bike Lanes things [21:45] like that we we presented the council and Council approved a policy for how we [21:51] spend that money and it's very specific it could be changed by Council it was set by Council it could be changed by [21:57] councel so there's there's some discussion there the other piece of this is is conservations and sustainability [22:03] same kind of thing when we increased our our our fees one year we had a chance to [22:09] to develop a sustainability function here conservation and sustainability um [22:14] again we've had a policy that was presented to the council was very specific on how we can spend that money [22:20] but again it's a council it's a council determined policy and you have the ability to change that [22:26] policy we have a a budget stabilization fund we've had a budget stabilization [22:31] fund for a few years now coming out of Co or maybe even a little before Co um [22:36] we are going to propose that we kind of finish that budget stabilization uh uh [22:42] fee excuse me budget stabilization fund off and take the remaining dollars in it [22:47] 589000 and put that into our operating budget for this year so that one would be gone um other possible revenues that [22:55] we are going to take a look at uh around are expansion of advertising sales and [23:01] uh naming rights for facilities uh two areas that we have been we have been doing uh sales of of advertising rights [23:08] and sponsorships for quite a while and and um I think we're pretty good at that [23:14] but we would like to do more uh we have not done a lot in terms of of of [23:19] accepting money or payment for uh facility sponsorship so that would be something relatively new uh other cities [23:26] are doing this right now too uh whether it's for companies or family foundations [23:31] or even individual people that are sponsoring them uh we want to see what what what possibilities there might be [23:38] for us in that area for D on the expense on the expense side [23:45] again we're looking at our Capital budgeting and we're looking at our operating costs so on the capital side [23:50] uh we did a review of what projects uh we really need to uh plan to do next [23:57] year in terms of capital spending and uh those are those are we're going to propose those remain in the CIP and [24:04] mostly those are projects related around asset preservation um or safety can we [24:11] go back for a minute Scott to um are you going to uh at any time today talk a little bit about uh some of these ideas [24:17] in more detail so we're going to we're going to find out what the existing franchise Fe [24:22] is YF all right yeah there's we have a lot [24:29] of discussion I think around franchise um on the future investment side again we've looked at projects that [24:36] we think could be deferred or could be canell and we've got a list of them here [24:41] uh we're happy to talk we've got some discussion planned for that later today too uh but we are not going to be able [24:50] to um make a levy impact uh without having some reduction in our Capital [24:55] spending this year so on the operating side and on the side um we also have some discussion [25:03] around how we fund some some alternatives for funding at least the York uh Park master plan and there may [25:08] be more opportunities there as well um on our equipment Levy this is a a levy a [25:15] special Levy that we um Implement every year to to fund our equipment so rolling [25:21] stocks of vehicles uh it equipment other major pieces of equipment uh we think [25:27] that there's a the the ability to reduce that budget by $500,000 without having [25:32] uh too much negative uh impact on our operations service reductions there are [25:37] a couple of them that uh that are going to be before the council this year uh one is reducing the the level of of uh [25:46] our Mill and overlay program and there's a financial savings with that uh we're going to ask the council to consider uh [25:53] some reductions perhaps in in our Human Services funding uh we provide [25:58] uh service contracts to local nonprofits or or Human Service organizations again [26:04] in Minnesota we can't provide philanthropic gifts to nonprofits but we can enter into service agreements and [26:10] that's how we've done it here and that's again how how many cities do it uh but that's an area of our budget that is is [26:17] discretionary and we may not have we may not uh need to do [26:22] it I oh sorry assessing so we're going to [26:27] have more discussion on on the question around assessing and who does City [26:33] assessing for us uh as you know there's a discussion going on between U cities [26:38] and henan County and and henan County around uh how to do assessing in the [26:43] future there are eight cities in henen county that continue to to do their own assessing were one of those uh those [26:51] cities have been meeting with David Hof who is the County Administrator around how uh if there's interest in [26:57] transitioning from a system where we have our own assessors on our own staff our co-workers uh to a system where the [27:05] county uh provides that service for us and we no longer have a city assessing [27:10] function here uh it's hard to make a prediction about what the savings of [27:15] that might be because we're just in the early stages of it right now um there's [27:21] a transition uh timeline that's important in the assessing business there's a there's a really predictable [27:27] uh timeline about when they file certain values when they stand before the public to answer questions Etc so we got to get [27:35] that right um but I can tell you that in these meetings uh where there have been these eight cities and representatives [27:41] from the county there are two cities that uh are interested in making this work in the near term or at least [27:48] exploring it more in the in the near term and that's a Dina in Maple Grove um [27:54] Brooklyn Park eaten furry menona St Louis park Bloomington and Minneapolis [27:59] are probably not don't have the same level of interest and uh but Maple Grove [28:05] and AD have told the county that we are at least on the staff side that we're interested in in more fully developing [28:11] uh a proposal we have to tell the county has set its own timeline that we have to [28:17] tell them by May 1st if if we're going to uh pursue this or if we'd like to [28:23] pursue it in the future and so that we're kind of working back from from that time [28:29] but that would make a that would make a difference and we've got a projection uh of [28:35] $500,000 that budget is more than a million uh but it's it's probably one of [28:40] those expenses that if we stop doing that service it's going to take a probably a year or two to fully achieve [28:48] all the savings that might be in that [28:53] area um and and just even in some smaller areas around around uh community [28:59] events Publications again we're looking for Savings in in those areas as well [29:04] and I think when we have looked at what you just saw in this section we're in the $4 million [29:11] range yeah in terms of what we have identified going into in terms of what [29:17] we've identified going into the 26 27 budget season and we've got some more work to do [29:23] to and the the 4 million is on top of the million that [29:30] the 1% rather that we found for this year yes yeah there [29:37] one other questions [29:43] clarifications I didn't mean to scare you with the the whole so we'll transition now to the to [29:51] the work side um the work plan side and and AR got a presentation about that [29:58] so I'm going to call this a a first draft that we threw together one one question in this portion uh on that [30:05] contracted Human Services funding someone that passed through funding from CBG use the cdbg [30:14] for none of this is pass through from CG these are all these are all [30:20] General and it's generally been 100,000 or 200,000 100,000 plus about 200,000 [30:30] can I had a question to you just to to go back the 4 million [30:37] um can you clarify what the projected ly would [30:44] be if we achieve the 4 million plus the 1% we will be able to do that but we [30:51] can't do itday part of it is because the [30:58] operating budget is just right now it's just set on an escalator of a percentage [31:04] increase right so we don't have good good idea you could roughly determine that last year 545 was roughly 1% and [31:12] kind of get an idea in your head to gauge it but a more precise version once we have the actual budget from the [31:18] Departments we'll be able to give you a a much more precise [31:24] projection okay I I guess I'm okay with that [31:31] um but I'm okay with it because I think that that number gets us into the [31:38] range that we were talking about that's all I'm asking at this point I'm not asking uh for specifics but just [31:46] hypothetically if if we run the numbers and all in and we find out well no 4 [31:53] million we need six then we have to start the process all over again and so [31:59] that's I'm just asking for you to give us some guidance on the how solid do we [32:06] think the four four and a half is that's all in the middle of March uh the only [32:12] solid numbers that we have for the 26 27 time period is probably our debt service [32:17] money um and that even could have some play to it if we we have to issue some [32:23] more debt in the upcoming couple of years but we just it's just soft at this [32:28] point in terms of major major components of our operating expenses aren't aren't [32:33] clear to us right now um some of those are around employee compensation uh particularly employee compensation that [32:40] is impacted by arbitration um so that could make a major difference in our budget and on the on the value side U I [32:48] think we all know there's a lot happening with values downtown and how [32:53] those values in in the central part of Minneapolis uh the reduction in in [32:58] commercial values is going to impact the County's overall assessment and that [33:03] does impact our overall values as well so that information becomes that [33:09] particular information becomes much clearer to us in just in the next 60 days and we'll be able to make some much [33:16] better judgment about them okay um I have a couple questions the 4 million [33:22] figure includes increasing the franchise fees [33:28] yes okay so that's really just switching Revenue screams and it's not really an [33:35] additional cut it's and it will impact residents and so I just I want to point [33:41] that out because I I feel like we should be talking about a figure that subtracts that [33:48] amount so that you know we have a a better understanding or more clarity on [33:53] what is actually cut and what is simply shifting Revenue I think that's important and most and [34:00] most of the revenue suggestions do that I mean most of the revenue suggestions are increasing fees franchise fees [34:09] service fees credit card fees right right four is is a net total right I still think that it is a [34:18] valid point and I can see the logic of collecting those credit card fees I think we should have done it years [34:24] ago um but you know just in terms of the assumption that if managing the property [34:30] tax levy is the primary goal of our budget process this year I think that is [34:36] something that is a big if right there because I think larger um picture it's [34:43] thinking about impact on residents and so the franchise fees is is that as well [34:50] and the other thing um you know we did I didn't see in this document but maybe it comes up later but one of the topics [34:57] that has been around for a while is commercial water rates and getting those to a tiered system and I thought we were going to [35:04] get that in at some point um so there's there's that the [35:10] um you know just thinking about Revenue generation and streams and and all of that I think it's really important to be [35:17] mindful of those dollars that end up being diverted from the general fund and [35:25] I know we're going to be talking about tip later but um I think it's important to keep that [35:30] in mind too so um but to be clear though to stabilize [35:37] our budget there's only two things we can do we can cut cost we can add revenue and so I think [35:46] what my um suggestion has always been we got to look at both right and so [35:55] um we can lean into to this conversation that something is a regressive tax I get [36:02] that but if the the credit card fees have gone into the general fund and [36:08] spread across everybody it makes sense to me to say if you want to use a credit card Derek you pay the fee I don't want [36:16] to pay Derek's fee and so I think when we go through this there's those the [36:22] only two I guess the third could be somebody could gift us $4 million [36:27] right and then for that year right we our budget will be stabilized um but [36:33] those are the two things and so when I read through the the memo it tries to [36:39] accomplish that and I do appreciate that for each one of those we are going to [36:45] dig into a deep dive and we have some Alternatives and decisions that we can make uh but I'm just being clear if we [36:53] make a decision to add something back my very next question is going to be okay [37:00] what's the value of that where are we going to find the offset and so that's that'll be the [37:07] question that I'll ask of anybody that wants to say well let's reduce that 4 million to three all right we got to [37:13] find another million dollars someplace and when we're making budget decisions [37:18] it's going to impact people either it's going to cost more or there's going to be a service level impact and we have to [37:26] be able to lean into that and explain well here's why and the only really healthy way to [37:32] to address a budget is both sides of the equation otherwise you're just you're just [37:38] Contracting right you look Carol and this is a processed question [37:43] as we go through this um I assume uh discussion of what service level changes [37:49] would look like will be a part of each section If this means you know another 2 [37:54] minutes for the fire truck to get there or something like that so that that's a [37:59] very important thing I need I think some of them we have determined that some of them were just haven't yet [38:06] still but it's it's not just reducing couldn't we also find ways to be more [38:11] efficient and build in um for example I'm just [38:17] thinking sometimes we divert from process and you know all of this is from [38:23] my perspective of being on the city council so I don't know you know what's going on in every Department obviously [38:28] to a level but um you know when we had [38:33] the um ask for creating conservation easement and the person who did the ask [38:39] wanted it to come before city council first and then go to planning and then back to city council like that kind of [38:46] thing if we could eliminate um doing things that really maybe are unnecessary we could save [38:53] money as well and so I think you know kind of having that in mind too so not [39:00] just cutting services but going for greater efficiencies in the the bigger bank for our body that kind of thing [39:07] yeah I I definitely agree with that in the big picture the I think about that [39:14] as the first thing I said so we reduce costs how do we do that we can reduce [39:21] service levels we can find efficiencies and how we operate um so I agree [39:28] completely with that from a cost perspective and I if if I understand [39:34] correctly where we are on all of this so um you got the initial projections they [39:41] weren't pretty you you wanted you wanted to [39:47] amarate that had discussions about what all you do so you can fully understand [39:52] where potential impact is and said to Scott come back to us with some ideas [39:57] um and that's where we are here today um but I don't think and if this isn't the [40:04] case please correct me I don't think that the five of you have agreed to [40:10] a this is this is our primary our primary purpose if it's just if it's [40:17] just property ly control or if it's something else haven't agreed on um the [40:23] actual Target in percent or dollar [40:28] and may or may not be on the same page in terms of um sort of your value [40:34] propositions on what's more important or less important to keep or adjust so I [40:39] think some of that is this afternoon's conversation too is is laying down getting closer on some of those [40:46] parameters I know you've talked about a number of things but I don't think the five of you have all sort of agreed on [40:53] some of those things so I think that's part of I think that's what this is revealing too [40:59] Fair I've got a few more General observations here y it seems like appropriate appropriate time base on [41:06] what we're talking about so for me I think Julie touched on it I'm sorry you [41:12] can look at the uh you can look at the um pillars but at the end of the day it [41:17] seems to me the goal is for us to optimize the delivery of high quality services at the lowest possible [41:24] cost so and then we do that in the context to these pillars and the other [41:29] elements that we that we follow and when the question was asked well James when do we uh start seeing [41:37] what some of the impact of this might be in terms of potential General level Levy increase Scott said he couldn't answer [41:44] that question because one of the big issues hanging out there is labor and labor contract [41:51] negotiations but we also know that when James raises the issue of Cost Containment [41:58] that we've hired 100 people in the last 10 years and 73% of our budget is [42:06] labor and to me that's got to be a component of this conversation the [42:12] structural component of the labor force of the city of viina and the residents of Vina are going to wonder why we [42:19] didn't ask that question are we operating as effectively as we can uh with the people that we [42:25] have do we need more people we get by with fewer people in different departments I don't know the answer to any of that I know that we do a great [42:32] job now but an essential part of this budget conversation when you think about [42:37] 73% of your I think it's 73% of your budget being labor how can you how can you ignore [42:44] that and we talked early on about and I asked you to find somebody that would be able to do structural analysis for us [42:51] there's no structural analysis in here you're doing some Benchmark you're you're hearing a report on benchmarking right after laun um staff V well it's a [42:59] different I think that's a different sort of approach to it than what I'm thinking about it the other thing is [43:05] that budget timing uh you know we've been working on a two-year [43:11] cycle and uh I say shame on me for being r as long as I have in the last cycle uh [43:17] I think the percentage was probably 133% on the second year I and I just said to myself well we'll we'll take that up [43:24] when it's time but we we didn't take it up until August or [43:30] September uh that's too late and I thought well we'll we'll deal with this later it can't be 133% when we did this [43:36] two years ago I'm thinking of my mind but we'll deal with this one the time at the time it comes up but if we're going [43:42] to be on an effective 2-year cycle we got to be thinking about this I I do more effectively in terms of its [43:49] sustainability over time um and so we can't wait until [43:55] August to start seeing some preliminary data and then ask us to make a decision on a 2-year [44:02] budget uh between August and December I don't think because we got we got [44:07] whipsaw last year we got caught now whipsaw maybe isn't a good word but it was really difficult to try to figure [44:15] out how to get that from 133% plus to 8% and I put a lot of pressure on staff and [44:21] it put a lot of pressure on us and it put a lot of pressure on us in the community at Large [44:27] because people didn't people don't discern between the preliminary Levy and the actual Levy they just see that the [44:33] projection is 133% and that looks to them like it's going to be 133% so we got to be [44:40] thinking carefully about those budget timing issue and I don't know what that means in terms of adjustment for staff [44:47] but the council can't get left until the last quarter of the year to be working on what the final budget is going to be [44:52] especially if we're doing it on a two-year basis those are my preliminary thoughts okay so um I'd like to I think [45:01] this might be a good time to flush out the idea of the structural analysis because when you raised that before that [45:06] really struck a chord with me and um I guess you know this is question for [45:12] Scott is um in your experience as a city manager what would a what are the [45:20] elements of the structural analysis and you know how do we because because I know that you had an experience Mr Mayor [45:26] of a friend who had done this on the corporate level and I guess I just it sounds really good but I'm I'm feel um [45:35] uninformed on what the elements of that are and whether this will cover that um [45:40] and I wonder if we can have a little translation um on that from either one of [45:45] you oh from my standpoint the reason I asked us I asked about hiring somebody [45:51] from the outside that does this specialty that I work because I don't know anything about it okay I see what's [45:56] having happening at the federal government level and it's appalling yeah what's happening with respect to [46:02] people's lives being disrupted and and and incomes being disrupted families being disrupted for no good reason just [46:08] because somebody decided to take a meat ax to the to the federal budget I don't want to see that happen here but we we [46:16] are we are not going to meet our responsibilities as elected officials unless we deal with the biggest part of the budget on some sort of analytical [46:23] basis and maybe at the end of the day we say our our people are doing an unbelievable [46:28] job with the number of people that we got working for us based on the population uh and maybe we even need [46:34] more I don't know but with 73% of the budget being labor it's got to be a part [46:40] of the budget discussion I think it's inevitable we've done we've done some [46:46] structural analysis on on our four biggest functions as city government on police fire Public Works and Parks uh [46:54] Parks maintenance for the most part um it was a group what we did this it was prior to Todd and and Andrew but I think [47:02] Barry was here and and Brian was certainly here uh when we did uh the kind of Public Works Park maintenance uh [47:09] groups together so when we did that structural analysis and there those reports are public and available to read [47:17] um but we've done so we I would say we have done structural analysis around [47:22] about 3/4 of our of our Workforce that remain Workforce is every [47:28] is kind of everything else kind of the corporate function corporate support functions um and some of our operating [47:34] functions but those those four biggest chunks of our budget we've done some work on that can you give to [47:41] us uh so you know one of the things that I was listening to the conversation from [47:47] the February meetings um was sort of an idea that you are the expert and and for me it would be very [47:54] helpful to have we've got those four structural anal Anis reports but then [47:59] when we say everything else you know it's to me is is a cloud right I just I [48:04] can't put on something specific that in today and this writing something on that [48:10] on the for I don't know if it's one of the slides or things that we'll talk about but a big picture um sort of [48:18] taking those four analyses looking at how weina runs versus other Minnesota cities and other cities nationally you [48:25] say look we're incredibly effici because I know Public Works incredibly efficient [48:30] we're way under staffed based on what the analysis that we as Council heard um [48:37] but can we have just kind of your 60,000 foot view of the structure of the city [48:45] of Vina and um that it it's it's efficiency grade um that would be [48:52] extremely helpful to me and I think that would uh begin to answer the mayor's concern [48:57] um and because I just I like thinking of it in those terms because it's easier to [49:03] articulate to the um City through the residents and the taxpayers we have done this work we are [49:10] very proud of the work that our city employees are doing and oh my gosh are we getting a bang for our buck or gosh [49:17] it turns out we looked at this and this area has grown and has probably grown too much and we need to contract a [49:23] little bit based on um what you know the bang for the buck kind of thing so [49:28] that's a discussion I'd like to be able to tell the public about and so if we can somehow or other structure the [49:35] information that we get in relation to that view um it would be extremely helpful to [49:44] me the other and I agree with everything that has been said and I think it is very important we have to look at the [49:50] number of employees we have and one example that I heard was you know our [49:56] city clerk used to handle elections now we have a specialist who handles elections and so when I hear police fire [50:04] Public Works parks and then everything else I think that everything else bubble [50:10] also needs a close analysis and um you know I do know we're underst [50:17] staffed for police and for fire and I am concerned about people having to do [50:22] mandatory overtime I think you know that is a big deal to me [50:29] um I also feel like we as Council keep approving projects that bring more [50:36] people in and then we don't have Revenue coming to compensate for the additional [50:42] services and that demand and level and so there's there's it's not just looking [50:47] at this for this year but we need to think systemically about what we are [50:52] doing that is bringing in instability and making it not sustainable [50:59] so and so the I agree with everything that that's been [51:06] said we have to do a Workforce plan as a part of whatever changes we [51:13] made um that's just smart business the flip side of mayor's [51:21] comment from a timing perspective we can't go into September [51:28] with a tax levy that's 133% and so we can do all the analysis [51:36] we want but that's got to be on a timeline to where we leave ourselves [51:41] enough time to make changes and so whatever that is like we have to trust [51:50] that the Scott you're going to make sure we have time to do that and we have all [51:55] the information that we have to be able to make those decisions your job is [52:03] hard if I were sitting in your seat I would be saying the same thing you just said to me when I said well what's our [52:10] projection not sh yet right um and so I respect [52:16] that but you have to make sure that we have enough time and all the information we need to make the decisions and I'll [52:25] probably say this again today if we're making changes to the [52:31] recommendations we have to be able to achieve those savings across the same time frame it's not okay for us to make [52:39] a decision and recognize we're not going to see that savings for two [52:44] years because we're going to set the levy this year right so all the we can [52:52] parking lot all the ideas that provide future savings and we should dive into [52:58] it absolutely I'm not saying we should but we're facing a decision that we have [53:05] to be able to address within the next I don't I'll say [53:11] four to five months I don't know the timeline to your point may we need to understand that um but that's the time [53:17] frame that we're I feel like we're working on some time frame within that 3 to 4 months where we got to know what [53:25] we're executing against so that we have enough time to do and I get that there are a lot of unknowns but I think that [53:32] we can look at historical information to have a pretty good analysis of we can [53:38] make some assumptions right we can we can begin to forecast what that will look like so that we know with these [53:45] approximate $4 million in savings does that leave us at a 8% increase right we [53:53] can then come back and say we got the valuations we know more it is different [53:58] but we at least need to know where that starting point is and so I don't think it's fair to say there's so many unknowns we can't do that we can look at [54:05] historical project so I think we need to start with that and then continue to iterate with more information that comes [54:13] in It's Tricky work because you can't even really make a projection we can't sit here and say we don't want to see a [54:19] percentage increase over 6% cuz we don't even know how the state's going to re is going to allocate between commercial and [54:25] residential yeah so it's really It's Tricky work [54:31] um and I I felt like we put you in an awkward position uh by saying when you [54:36] came in August or whatever it was looks like it's going to be 13 plus per. we said no no and then you had to scramble [54:44] in that last quarter to try to figure out how to get us down to 8% uh which we were comfortable [54:51] with so I I don't know you got you you you you run this process and you run it [54:56] the message I'm getting though is you want to know sooner what that impact is going to be that it happened previous [55:02] years I can tell you that we are further and deeper into budget prep uh in 2025 [55:09] than we have been in my previous years here so we we we hear that message from [55:14] Council we hear that you want to know sooner what the impact is going to be that you want to be involved in those [55:19] discussions and we can we're planning to make that happen for you I'm going to take advantage of this [55:26] moment to transition us because part of part of part of how we know what's in the budget is we know what are the [55:33] things that are the priorities and so that is what the budget work plan is um I do want to note before we dive into [55:39] this that 90 some per of what we do is day-to-day operations yeah I hold I to [55:44] hold that just for a second here I don't want to push this before we're done with this conversation topic because I've got one more thought too I don't want to see [55:52] anybody in the city lose their job we're looking at talking about or looking at [55:57] having the county do our assessing and that's going to mean some people might transition to the county or or go somewhere else uh that's an efficiency [56:06] that I think grateful staff is looking at it carefully and talking to the county in Earnest about [56:12] that but I don't think that we should be doing our own internal analysis on [56:18] whether or not we're sufficiently or inadequately staffed or underst staffed [56:24] I think that that that doesn't resonate to me with a taxpayer saying well you're [56:30] looking at your own operation and deciding whether you've got too many or too few or just the right amount of employees I think that's why I asked to [56:38] have somebody hired that can do structural analysis for us from the [56:43] outside and I think between now and uh fall I mean that's what we ought to be [56:49] doing we we ought to not I appreciate the internal analysis but I think an external [56:55] analysis is going to be more more U appropriate for the [57:01] taxpayer internal an credibility there or distance I want to Prior prior [57:07] structural analysis we have't were done by an outside room they weren't done by yeah that's right five bules y y thank [57:14] for that five bugles was one um rap Talis although she had a different I [57:19] think it was a different name at the time I wasn't really thinking about you to fair point I wasn't really thinking [57:25] about public safety as part of this conversation because our residents all say they're whatever you need for Public [57:32] Safety make sure we got it in place well and and so here here we get back to my point of of you haven't all agreed on on [57:39] what the ground rules are for what we're doing because Jim saying I don't want anybody to lose and then um well but I'm [57:46] not talking about that I mean right some of these ground rules you're you're still a pretty broad range of [57:53] places we might not be I agree with what um I think an outside analysis um [57:59] looking at departments would make a lot of sense and it's possible my colleagues agree with the man so I don't I don't [58:07] disagree with that guys buty but can I offer a construct [58:15] please because this is how I am this is honestly how I'm thinking about it I [58:21] appreciate mayor you saying you don't want in you don't want to see anybody lose their job ready I don't [58:29] either but I would would frame that to say I wouldn't want to anyone to lose [58:35] their job unless we're looking at data that suggests we should move in a different [58:41] direction right so and so to me that means here's how I think about it if you [58:48] look at our budget projections it's me it's a hockey state right and so what we [58:56] have to do we have I think we've got probably two or three points to change that [59:02] trajectory there's a big bang right here which is what we're talking about today [59:08] and there are things that the staff has said we think we can get that right and [59:14] it's I estimated 5 to 7 million on the back of a napkin Kate and I come from a [59:20] different uh background so we do this every day right just give me the trend [59:26] I can figure out where I think I need to be and directionally let's go that way [59:31] but that's that's a level of ambiguity on the back of a napkin I say 5 to [59:37] 7% staff they're the only ones who know what that is cu I don't even have access [59:44] to all the data and so staff has come back and said we think it's somewhere [59:49] around four and here's how we think we might be able to get there that's the first [59:56] point that honestly just starts us on changing the budget [1:00:02] trajectory because it's a twoyear cycle so if we hit that then to remember [1:00:09] Jackson's point and mayor well maybe we we do need to do another Force look at [1:00:15] our Workforce again but that's another bang right so there's other stuff that [1:00:20] we have to do beyond the next 3 to 4 months we're not going to be able to do [1:00:26] it all in 3 to 4 months in order to hit the first one and so that's how I'm is [1:00:34] that uncomfortable because there's ambiguity in it 100% there is but I can [1:00:41] tell you what certainty if we go to that level of detail starting now we won't [1:00:47] hit that first thing so one thing I just want to ask you to clarify when we say 4 [1:00:55] million I I've been saying five $500,000 is approximately 1% so if we say 4 million [1:01:02] and it's a 5% increase I think that's $4 million yeah yeah that's all I did I [1:01:09] took numbers I figured out the percentage I said Ari is this reasonable [1:01:15] and she said as as she does I'm not so sure but here's how you should think [1:01:21] about it and the percentage and so that's how I came up yeah for me it's a it's easier to talk about gross numbers [1:01:28] than percentages and so I just wanted to um get my head straight in your understand what you're saying yeah I I [1:01:35] think the two things though that we keep in mind when we're judging property tax impact is not just the increase of the [1:01:41] ly but it's also that sort of hidden almost tax impact how does it impact [1:01:47] actual taxpayers yes because we do have times when we can increase the levy by [1:01:52] 10% but it feels on on the on the pay side like a 2% it's just the way that [1:01:59] the valuations uh roll between residential and Commercial between County and City and school and City I [1:02:06] mean we could do a lot of reductions on our side and have the school increase their Levy and it wipes out up any [1:02:12] savings that you have for so we try to we try to keep our eye on a lot of different balls as we're kind working [1:02:19] through this yeah all right so can we talk about that [1:02:24] a fair point because we end up seems like we end up Waring the whole thing whether it's the county or the school [1:02:29] district or us we own it all they look at they look at us [1:02:36] sure yeah because they just get filled so can we move on and and get some more [1:02:42] information under our belts talk about the capital stuff and then talk about some of the projections and then talk [1:02:47] about some of the Staffing that we have and some of the other things that staff have corre [1:02:54] sure so this work plan is is a first draft um which we put together as staff [1:03:01] based off of both the combination of what we've heard you as Council talk about um things that were priorities to [1:03:08] you also things that are just coming up from a staff perspective that we know are coming up when that are going to take major [1:03:14] resources um so it's a first draft uh we typically adopt the budget work plan [1:03:21] along with the budget when we adopt it it's a 2-year cycle so we adopt this in December so this is we have plenty of [1:03:27] time to continue to work and to finetune this um and I think as we go through it [1:03:33] um thinking from that lens of what's missing what were your priorities that aren't reflected in this um are there [1:03:40] things uh on here that aren't your priorities um and we can talk about some [1:03:46] of them are going to be things that are staff driven or organizationally driven because maybe it's time to do it it's [1:03:51] might not be the thing that is the most exciting for you to do but is sort of a timeline and a process thing and then we [1:03:58] started from the place of last year's budget work plan um and reflected on [1:04:04] whether or not we are if things are being removed that's because they're typically coming to the end of that cycle and we maybe don't need to have [1:04:10] them at the top the high end of on the budget work plan a high priority um or if they're being added there's something [1:04:16] that's that we see for coming up in the next um foreseeable future as far as um [1:04:22] investment goes so the first thing we have fire station number three three uh we are hoping to be able to determine by [1:04:29] the end of 2025 uh where our location is um one of the key factors in doing that [1:04:35] that we think we need to do next is to get a better idea of the soil conditions traffic flow um and I guess whether or [1:04:42] not we can have the land from the state would also be a key um a key progress meter but we're hoping by the time we [1:04:48] adopt this document that we will know a lot more about that long-term Art Center [1:04:54] um PL this one is actually can I interrupt you for a second and ask you your comment starting out about fire [1:05:00] station number three has caused me to think about fire station number two personally under construction are we on budget for that Chief yeah currently we [1:05:07] are yes okay so these uh the tffs or proposed tariffs looking like they could [1:05:14] impact us dere Derek would uh be a better uh subject matter expert for the [1:05:20] tariffs specific to that I'll pass that to dere not at this time um most most of [1:05:25] the materials have been purchased well in advance um there might be a little bit of trickle down for some escalation [1:05:31] costs but nothing major thank you for that I I do think [1:05:39] one factor though we should keep in mind and maybe Nick could comment on this is that at NLC this year there's a lot of [1:05:46] discussion around impacts of of the loss of tax exemption for Municipal debt um [1:05:55] it's been there every year and we talk about it every year but this year it seems real um so I don't know Nick but [1:06:01] what are you guys advis are you advising your clients about borrowing and [1:06:06] timing in advance of that to try to get ahead of of the game yeah [1:06:12] um I'll I'll bluntly know I don't I don't think it makes sense to go out and [1:06:17] get ahead of your skis in anticipation of something that you don't control certainly there would be an [1:06:24] impact on the interest costs of your debt which generally speaking we're [1:06:29] talking about something maybe three or 4% in relation to the actual project [1:06:36] that you're funding um those costs might be four or 5% [1:06:43] through that now that's real dollars it's it's going to make an impact but it's not as big [1:06:49] as jumping ahead and over issuing [1:06:55] % of your debt before you know exactly what you need to spend if that makes [1:07:02] sense that was a great Point Scot I know the US Conference of M who is one of the top issues our legislative team is [1:07:07] working on is making sure that we preserve that interest fre Municipal bond [1:07:13] status or not interest free I mean tax free interest fre is good too [1:07:20] yeah all right the next item on here is the long-term Art Center plan um we [1:07:26] right now have this under strong Foundation but we feel at some point it's going to transition more to an operational side since we seem to be [1:07:32] moving forward with that that plan uh again another project we'll know more about as 2025 fills out so by the time [1:07:38] that we get to adopting it'll be um uh more flesh out Parks so that that's an [1:07:44] important one to talk about too because I I have people seemingly seemingly routinely asking well what's it going to [1:07:51] cost us to do the art center what's the rent going to be what can know we have any sense of for what direction we're [1:07:58] heading there so that we can start thinking about and you probably are too thinking about how we can how we can do [1:08:04] what we'd like to do yes sir and not get to the 11th hour and say this isn't going to work for us sorry you'll have [1:08:10] to use the second FL for something else yeah we absolutely do um we identified those costs earlier with a letter of inent with in County I'm currently [1:08:17] working um with web management and what our operational side of things looks like obviously there' be a ramp up [1:08:22] period you know we be market share um you know we don't believe we can offer 100 classes the first month right we [1:08:29] need to build up that clientele and our instructor phase as well over time so [1:08:34] we're kind of looking at that as well um from like a ramp up on how we're going to operate the facility you know at this [1:08:41] point I think quarter four of 2027 might be optimistic you know we might be latter part of that into 2028 but we do [1:08:49] know those base costs are ready for um the the build agreement side with hen [1:08:56] C right and um and they still have a lot of work to do on their P you know they just went through the Planning [1:09:01] Commission last week but there's still a lot of work that they're going to have to do so right now we're looking at [1:09:07] what's on the list and what's not on the list just in terms of what's currently [1:09:12] in in play and then we'll talk about specifics of of dollars yeah there's certain things that the circle is [1:09:18] getting tighter on and there's other things that we're working to make that so so after a work session on Thursday [1:09:23] morning Scott night run with the county ad and you probably knew this I didn't but [1:09:29] they're going to be good good with us on the rent so they were going to give you friends and family discounts which is [1:09:35] good to hear what that means I don't know absolutely I think that was the key for the the the partnership looking at [1:09:42] our go alone cost you know is probably one sixth the cost of what we would do with [1:09:49] him so the next big the next item are also projects we've been working on for a long time [1:09:56] but for they were lumped together as one item and the reality of the timeline on those individual projects it would be [1:10:02] better to have them as separate so we're going to split them out um into three separate projects on the work plan kill [1:10:10] sanitary um sewer project upgrades uh that project hit the pause button again [1:10:16] there already very any additional thoughts on that the park improvements uh actually mayor on Tuesday night [1:10:22] you're going to get a deep dive on those work session and um we'll give you a [1:10:27] full update on that right thanks yep the next two we're going to remove we feel like we're at the stage [1:10:33] where they'll be completed um and then after that other things that we've been working on um which we're going to talk [1:10:39] about a little bit more when we hit the debt service is that we have had since 2019 scoped out been working on some [1:10:46] Police Department City Hall um renovation work we need to figure out [1:10:51] more design if we plan on doing that in the next um and this is we are moving this back timeline wise to [1:10:58] 2029 um but we still need to do some design work and so putting that on the on the list the next one you guys have [1:11:05] heard about um a little bit more recently in January when we talked about the pump room at the Aquatic Center um [1:11:11] so that we are adding we're in the process of doing design for that um hoping that we can um do some [1:11:19] constructure on that in late 25 early 26 um and keep that Aquatic Center working [1:11:26] so is the uh you talking about the last column there about bonding for it but we [1:11:31] got a request in that the legisl on the [1:11:38] project yeah the Aquatic Center we do we got to tell you though that's pretty unlikely that we're going to heard that [1:11:45] it's more probable than that that we'll have to go to loan that okay um the next section is reliable [1:11:53] service um we have some stuff in here about enhancing support for staff this [1:11:58] is something that was a priority for Council a number of years ago um we are [1:12:03] still working on that work we've done a lot of in this area um there was some stuff currently being done with the [1:12:09] Parks and Recreation Department that we think we could use some of that more expanded to other areas as well um so we [1:12:16] we plan as it's a relatively small number in the scale of some of these other projects but we think it's important to continue to look at how we [1:12:23] support our staff and um continueing that strategy oh yeah I remember the report [1:12:29] that we got out um that two years ago we went pretty in depth into some of the [1:12:36] examples um I thought that was really good um it might be good at some point too and I don't feel like I have an [1:12:43] understanding of are we seeing an increase a decrease or what has been the the trajectory of those disruption [1:12:49] events over the last couple of years um part of me is like I haven't heard about [1:12:54] it I feel like it's been a little bit lighter but then I look at the current landscape and I'm like I still think it [1:13:00] should be a priority but I think a data point at some point will be helpful yeah I do think we have a work session planned sometime this summer or fall on [1:13:07] that may in May unless it gets bumped but so tentatively May um on that item [1:13:13] and Ari um one of the things that I'd like to know more about with that is how that um impacts the staff retention and [1:13:20] the cost savings by retaining staff rather than um having people get burned out and leave and have to retrain that [1:13:26] that's a cost element have that please yeah depending on what area the job is [1:13:31] in those prices can be extremely significant yeah I think that'd be an important data um Mental Health Service [1:13:38] advancements this is the work that you guys have been doing with the um art team and so uh that is in a pilot phase [1:13:46] um which was funded with our Public Safety funding um at some point we're going to be working and meeting and coming up with a plan probably over the [1:13:53] next um uh by the time we're done adopting this of what is the next steps [1:13:58] forward for that program what does that look like what and maybe an outcomes perspective of pilot so um we're [1:14:04] planning on talk about that I think in October sometime in the fall so we'll give you an update on that but right now it's on the budget work plan um the [1:14:11] future election Administration agreement was one that we actually got to remove because the school district changed [1:14:17] their processes and to not have even your elections anymore so that was on your budget work plan but we did remove [1:14:23] it um the THC cannabis legislation um we uh finished our ordinance and adopted it [1:14:30] so from our perspective we are we are ready to go we're just waiting on the state so that's completed um the next uh [1:14:39] the next um one is is um an item that we've added as an outcome of some of [1:14:45] these discussions it's relating to assessing um that's obviously some work we're going to do in 25 but depending on [1:14:51] what the outcome of that looks like um from a transition perspective what 26 and 27 would look like um the project [1:15:00] after that we've put on the list as Aden Boro Park um this one especially if you [1:15:06] look at some of the what you're going to see when we go through The Debt Service perspective some of our um that building [1:15:12] needs a lot of work and so we got to figure out within the next two years how what we're going to do about Edinburgh [1:15:19] um and so that is kind of putting it on the list to examine I do want to point out that that um I do have a a a concern [1:15:29] about um staff capacity in the Parks and Recreation Department um specifically [1:15:35] with all we have a ton of these local sales tax projects that are going on right now and also doing I mean an art [1:15:42] center I mean literally every single one of the major facility functions underneath Perry has um a giant project [1:15:50] a a generational project happening in it and so that is something that um where [1:15:57] whether it's this project or another project we might need to come back and say we got to get some outside help in [1:16:02] order to be able to do something because I just think the workload is beyond what [1:16:08] we have internally and so maybe Perry can talk a little bit more about that later on but um I I just that's one [1:16:15] thing we just wanted to point out is a a concern about the context of all the things we're doing at once in that area [1:16:21] the last one is s are we going to do a little bit more drill down on head B Park and its future this afternoon yeah [1:16:27] yeah that's thought I saw that on yeah we're going to drill down this whole document you guys are welcome to talk about anything that you want to in this [1:16:33] document too um process Automation and AI exploration so AI is obviously [1:16:40] something that is kind of a a hotter topic staff is exploring how to use it we're we have an AI lunch and learn [1:16:45] group that um Our IT director Ryan um host um but we also think that Beyond [1:16:51] just AI which is is is great in some ways really continuing to focus on process automation is a way that we can [1:16:58] achieve a lot of efficiencies and so that's something that we want to to continue to work towards and um continue [1:17:05] to invest in uh the next section is liable cities [1:17:11] um you guys are currently having conversations we've been using some of the H um meeting work sessions uh to [1:17:18] talk about that so that's something that hopefully will have more of an outcome for you guys to put on this budget work [1:17:24] plan by the end of the year um with a better update there uh comprehensive [1:17:29] Plan update this was on on here in for to start prepping for it we're moving [1:17:35] into the um starting to complete slash working towards complete completion of [1:17:40] the compr plan it won't really be done until 2028 most likely but we got to do [1:17:45] a lot of work in 26 27 in order to to get where we need to be and then finally [1:17:51] um the item that we talked about adding and we we''ve been working working on is the zoning code update we do believe [1:17:57] that that's going to produce some efficiencies at least from a a Time perspective for you all and for for [1:18:02] stack hopefully into the future Julie did I saw your yeah I I think this is really needed and it's really [1:18:09] frustrating when you look at our code like I can't the puds have not been updated in many cases so it's super hard [1:18:16] to prep um but my concern is we update the zoning code and then we Tinker with [1:18:25] it and um I feel like there's kind of a [1:18:32] normalization um and that just came up at the last council meeting like oh we'll just rewrite the definition of [1:18:37] kenel when it didn't really apply and so I feel like this is a good investment [1:18:46] but I also feel like we need to have an [1:18:52] understanding that we guard it and we keep it up to date and we like when we [1:18:58] rezone there should be a certain period of time like it has to be updated within [1:19:05] two weeks or something like that because there are puds that are years old that [1:19:11] are not accurate so I I guess it's not just doing this work but ensuring that [1:19:19] it is something that is a useful tool and doesn't get bucked up up and also is [1:19:27] you know kept up to dat um so I just whispered this to Carrie but I think this area might be a [1:19:33] place after our meeting with Microsoft in the school district uh where AI might have some efficiencies um you know so to [1:19:40] kind of keep that in mind we don't want people to lose their jobs necessarily but if we can make the process you know [1:19:47] two days instead of two weeks by using AI that idea and cu's the expert be able [1:19:53] to about that [1:20:02] right I'm going to keep going but we can talk further about that later if you guys have more questions about it um [1:20:08] better to get it that's our last uh pillar um we are due for the quality of life survey um this should in 25 we [1:20:16] we're doing that this year then we do it again our processes to do it every other year so we would keep it on the the plan [1:20:22] but update it for 2027 um and then refined Community engagement [1:20:28] methods uh we actually had that discussion um I should have updated this one sorry I must have finished this [1:20:34] before so we're going to keep working on that um for this year and we'll have a a [1:20:40] more update by the end of the year of what what we're doing in that area uh long-term Art Center plan so [1:20:46] yeah we you're going to see this show up in two spots and the reason showing the two spots is it's going to move out of the construction of a building [1:20:52] perspective and into the how to we operate and how do we live up to the the [1:20:57] values you all want to see in that type of operations what does that look like what what does how do we operationalize [1:21:04] your investment in um in arts uh and that is the draft of the budget work [1:21:11] plan and so again this is just our throwing things on paper we maybe missed something work we might come back to you [1:21:18] and say oh we got to add this because you know or something might pop and suddenly we got to put it on there as [1:21:24] well or there might be things that you all think are missing that are really important and so I just find it easier [1:21:29] sometimes to edit something with some notes in place so you can kind of see here's what we're thinking and what's [1:21:35] missing and and let us know so just to jump back to our previous discussion um [1:21:40] from both the mayor and Jam's comments I think we should add to this a long-term Staffing structure analysis I don't [1:21:48] think I I think James is right that we can't do that in the time that we have but it's a long as a longterm thing [1:21:55] I think we should add that um just so that we like I said Can Comm if if for no other reason be able to communicate [1:22:01] to the public and there may be many other reasons that come out of this but I'd like to see that on the long [1:22:10] term how do you characterize the cham Workforce assessment or yeah well how [1:22:16] how what's the city terms I call it a Workforce plan but call it a staffing [1:22:22] analysis Staffing anal comprehensive comprehensive yes and I [1:22:29] think it would be fun to fun foris uh to do it with like a partner [1:22:36] who has the experience in AI to layer that in um where their advancements in [1:22:43] certain areas where that might be the potential opportunity so can I just ask are how [1:22:50] should in the context of budget [1:22:57] stabilization how should we be internalizing this board plan information you just said like [1:23:05] there's something that's not on there we just added something to it yeah so this is in the category of what is right now [1:23:13] as opposed to what should be or what could be that we talk about later right so this is this is what we know today [1:23:20] without making the big changes y okay yeah and is it still [1:23:25] still have the support of the council really I guess I'm just it's probably [1:23:30] fine but like I like the way rber Jackson said hey it would be great to [1:23:36] have this Workforce plan comprehensive but she said that's not [1:23:42] going to impact her first game we don't have enough time to do it so it goes on here but it may be something we initiate [1:23:49] next year like that to me feels good what I don't want to happen is add stuff [1:23:55] to this that then means like I said earlier we now got to find another half [1:24:01] a percent to pay for that to do it this year so but that's not the intent of [1:24:07] this at this point is it I would say that whatever is on this budget budget [1:24:14] work plan are what we would view as the priorities and so we're still going to hit our goals of trying to to to [1:24:21] regardless of of those things it just might mean we might be doing something different in a different area in order [1:24:27] to pay for that Staffing analysis but if that is the priority that is coming from the counil that's where we should be in [1:24:34] investing our money and so I mean at the end of the day we we do need to prioritize because we can't do it do [1:24:41] everything and also try to um budget [1:24:48] stabilize okay and that might mean something takes longer that's we'll talk [1:24:54] more about impacts of that as we can this pound you I was next yes that totally makes sense these [1:25:02] are the priorities we can add other things in here but we still have the same [1:25:08] objective that we started with and so depending on we'll look at whatever our priorities are and then figure out the [1:25:16] best way to get that stuff done in that within that construct my view on those [1:25:23] things is great what do we what do we have to do what do we want to [1:25:28] do what can we do and in through in that order then what can we do within the [1:25:33] financials now let's go back and are there things we take off we delay we slow We base [1:25:41] right so my my thought is very detailed [1:25:46] so and and I'm I'm trying to stay at a process level but when we're looking at the comprehensive Plan update and when [1:25:52] we did the review of What expenses were small area plans were very expensive [1:25:57] they are also um uh to a certain extent disruptive and controversial in in in practice so when [1:26:05] we're looking at the comprehensive Plan update I hope that part of our discussion is where are areas of change [1:26:12] and what is the cost of addressing that and and um uh so like I said it was a [1:26:19] little detail that I'm trying to bring up to appropriate level at this point but that's just something that [1:26:26] um kind of sticks out and I agree entirely with [1:26:36] that and to add to that they don't really have much legal um basis to them until you [1:26:43] actually make it into and then they don't even matter [1:26:48] they get ignored and people get upset well I don't know about that but but I can tell you that in terms of denying [1:26:55] something based on what's in the small area plan would be problem well and that's not that's not what I'm mean what I'm thinking is the idea for the small [1:27:02] area plans began in 2008 and they W even written until around 2017 2018 so if [1:27:08] we're going to be thinking about small area plans we have to be thinking what's happening 10 years from now and what are [1:27:15] what are we as Council um directing you know this this very large slow moving [1:27:22] thing to do that's that's the 60,000 foot Co and so I just want to make sure [1:27:28] that that's included because it is a very longterm thing that decisions we [1:27:33] make now will affect yeah do you have something stop my okay [1:27:42] other questions at this stage all right so we're going to take a [1:27:49] break and then when we come back you're going to hear in depth on on debt [1:27:54] service and capital projections sales tax Street assessment [1:28:00] franchising and we're going to talk about tip sorts of things and then we're going to be at lunch shopping clean up [1:28:06] all right so 10 minutes come back at qu two okay we doing okay good break you [1:28:16] got your Munchies you got your drinks you got you took care of all the stuff are we doing okay so far [1:28:22] overall okay I've had at least one uh well I've had one and so there may be [1:28:27] others request to make sure that we're using our outside voices as we're talking about things [1:28:33] right uh everything else okay okay so P you're picking up here y [1:28:41] all right we're going to drop the lighting a little bit um because some of the numbers are hard to read otherwise [1:28:47] um is that okay you all good with that okay yeah thank you [1:28:55] well applaud Tod thank you he's been back and forth for I [1:29:03] know all right as we start uh to talk about the aspects of the budget forecast [1:29:09] in terms of debt services and capital projects as we get into more of the meat [1:29:15] of this uh Retreat or the foundation of the retreat I just want to give uh what [1:29:21] our timeline is tally for this this year's 2627 budget today we are here at the [1:29:28] discussion and goal setting for the 26 27's budget at The Retreat um you want [1:29:34] information sooner more up front and so we don't have to you don't have to see it all later in the towards the end of [1:29:40] the year so we do have work sessions built in there along with more presentations to you about our [1:29:46] discussions and whatnot and then our goal of course is to work towards uh December adoption of the final 26 27 l [1:29:59] questions okay if I can get this to work there you go all right so um with that [1:30:06] being said what I have in front of you here and I'm sorry it is a little small on the bottom but then I want to just [1:30:12] show in terms of visual where we are uh where we are at the first one is 2024 25 [1:30:19] 26 27 28 and 29 and 30 I didn't think anything more than 30 it's it's it's [1:30:25] uncertain right and so uh what I have here is starting off in 24 to 25 26 I am [1:30:32] showing what are some of our debt service levies that we are obligated to [1:30:38] Levy for uh and so with that being said I just want to explain that at the [1:30:43] beginning of 24 and 25 we do have some um existing debt that we currently are still going to have to work on or pay [1:30:50] off or Levy for for the next couple of years and Al in 25 we saw our biggest Spike because this is due to our new [1:30:57] fire station Tu bond that we had to take and so with that being said um there I [1:31:03] think there's a strategic way when we look at what our projection is for Debt Service Levy that over the next 5 years [1:31:09] there's an uh there's going to be those existing debt before the Fire Station 2 that debt that will be falling off that [1:31:16] we need to consider as we plan for these bigger projects that cannot um that that [1:31:23] these big projects are like the public safety um and City Hall projects to the uro and golf Event Center and I'll talk [1:31:29] a little bit more into those but uh as these next four years these existing debt falls off there's a opportunity for [1:31:37] us to consider or plan for flexibility and how we issue and what we issue that [1:31:42] for um before you leave that slide this a question for Nick um with the rating agencies you know they s said H you know [1:31:51] you don't want to bring on too much debt approximately where in this Arc would we be hitting that that nervousness of the [1:31:57] rating agencies can you is that something that you're equipped to answer well I think I would I would just put it [1:32:03] in the context of the rating agencies are going to be looking at the overall Financial Health [1:32:08] of the city and there's several different factors that they're going here we're talking about a fixed cost [1:32:15] that's part of your budget that's going to be a long-term liability in the future the top of that line is 7 million [1:32:23] top yes so as a percent of the total revenues of the city on an annual basis [1:32:30] what is that six 7% maybe it's not very [1:32:35] high in terms of their scale the city of Idina has a lot of [1:32:41] other revenues outside of its Levy that you are able to utilize for programming [1:32:46] for operations for Capital even so that is not necessarily conc concerning to [1:32:54] the rating agency I don't want to paint a picture like you're not going to get in trouble at some point in time so if [1:33:00] you had contraction right then there might be an offset to that um but having a fixed [1:33:06] cost of 6 7% on on debt is not something you know [1:33:12] they're they're more looking at 15 okay before they would say that this [1:33:17] specifically is a red flag okay so nothing on here would raise the attention of the um negatively raised [1:33:24] the attention to the as far as you know this a very narrow window right of what [1:33:29] they're right right so so this doesn't say oh my gosh with that middle one in 2027 we're going to get a when the [1:33:36] rating agencies look at us they're like wow you're really pushing the limits there kind of thing we're not going to hear anything like that no I don't think [1:33:42] your your fixed Levy for debt is not something that they have cited in the [1:33:47] past and it's not something that I think would there would have to be a lot of other contraction okay elsewhere before [1:33:55] that would raise a thank you yep um okay so are all of these projects that have [1:34:02] been bonded for purely public projects cuz I can't read them all yep I I'm [1:34:07] going to flip to the next me okay follow up question though because this was a proposal that recently came to the H to [1:34:17] bond for the parking ramp at the US Bank development site and take on that debt [1:34:25] and I'm just wondering um I've received a lot of concerns about that I personally have [1:34:31] concerns about that and um if this session is [1:34:36] about kind of mitigating costs and really focusing the very limited [1:34:42] resources that we have I just want to put it out there do we want to think [1:34:48] about um a policy where we would only bond for public projects [1:34:54] just a question we don't need to answer it today well what what sense do you think [1:35:01] that might not be a potential public project if it was deemed to be District parking I'm just using this as an [1:35:07] example I I I don't even know much about this idea but it's a parking ramp that's [1:35:15] part of a private development Tiff district and so in here and now you know [1:35:21] and they say okay it can be used by the public public on Saturdays and Sundays and after hours but it's all it's [1:35:27] already controversial but that's kind of those are details and I I think you know [1:35:33] do we want to say we're not going to bond for projects that are private that could have a public B well this could be [1:35:41] a publicly owned ramp I think that's the point that I heard you making is that [1:35:46] just like at 50th in France or at J's we own the parking ramps but they're adjacent to commercial spaces right it's [1:35:53] arguable that a ramp out there that was planned could be a district parking ramp [1:35:58] owned by the city whether it's a good idea or not I don't know I was thinking it was going to service that's that's [1:36:04] kind of a distraction for but I mean let me let me just say that Industrial Development bonds are no longer are no [1:36:11] longer taxi exem so it's a completely different animal Industrial Development fond is a city bonding for a private [1:36:16] project and that in 1986 went away um is that so I don't think that when we had [1:36:22] that discussion we'll have the discussion but that's not something that's possible okay good [1:36:27] thank you none of the projects that are up there include a ramp so just so you [1:36:33] can't see them on the bottom the ramp is not in this current yeah I just wanted again the larger point being that you [1:36:39] don't use it for for private projects period right sorry hry I'm impressed you can read that well I also seen this [1:36:50] before all right and then flipped how [1:36:55] hard do I have to press it um sometimes it if you wait too long it kind of press [1:37:00] the button are not in the pack we thank you [1:37:05] no but we will upload them we'll upload sorry about that we're still [1:37:11] making no words all right so this is really small to read and I understand that but I'll try my best to illustrate [1:37:17] what's on the screen by narrating it so um the first year column I have is your [1:37:23] 23 actuals and then going all the way to the far right is the 202030 [1:37:29] projected I can B thank you and then with the white section what we have on top with the two colors that's your [1:37:36] existing Debt Service Levy with some projections and then the bottom half is the construction fund levies uh your cap [1:37:43] CIP Levy equipment Levy special Park Levy um so what I want to call your [1:37:48] attention to is the white sections are obligations that we have decided Council has decided that yes we'll be moving [1:37:54] forward on right so this is our existing debt levies to our fire station newest [1:38:00] fire station to uh debt levies obligations the yellow sections you've [1:38:05] seen both the yellow and the orange sections before in previous uh Council presentation on projection uh but what I [1:38:13] want to say is that for the yellow sections those um staff we have taken a [1:38:18] look at it in terms of project reprioritizing these are also on the CIP [1:38:23] and we said hey what are some ways that we can um look at or propose in a way [1:38:28] where we're not so uh inflating The Debt Service Levy needs and so we made some [1:38:33] changes and those are in the orange section the yellow sections we fine tune certain ones in terms of these are the [1:38:40] ones that we need to work on and you would have seen that in the work plan that already presented it on earlier but [1:38:46] these are the ones that we could probably strategically place them in different years based off of uh the [1:38:52] timing of different projects those were likely happen right in those years that's what we're saying best case [1:38:57] scenarios or the scenarios we're looking at and then the orange ones those are like our P PD and City Hall projects we [1:39:05] combine that one into one versus previously you saw it and two um that [1:39:12] was always one sorry that was one and then the second one is the Fire Station 3 uh already mentioned a little bit [1:39:18] about it earlier this one we're slating in 29 uh for a 30 years Bond and then [1:39:24] the Edinburgh and the Golf Center you previously saw but what we did here is I [1:39:30] let's have more conversations about it before we really you know start projecting for these so those two are [1:39:35] the two of the major changes that we um updated this projection we essentially [1:39:40] pushed both of those categories correct out correct they haven't dropped some of them almost off the page correct yeah um [1:39:49] and so with that being said uh with the Edinburgh and golf Event Center we'll be having additional discussion on it on [1:39:55] what is the long-term vision for the Ed for Edinboro and then what are also some potential on expanding our sales tax uh [1:40:03] uh funded projects to support these facilities and I have a slide on it that we'll go into a little bit more um the [1:40:10] construction fund Levy we of course have our CIP equipment special pars Levy and a special uh Street Levy we have that in [1:40:18] there but then um I just want to show you where we are headed in terms of just [1:40:25] projections on the slide before we go um the special Park Improvement Levy uh [1:40:31] when we decided not to do Lewis Park so is the actual number different um for or [1:40:37] it dropped down in for 2025 based on the cup that we made no actually the Lewis [1:40:43] Park was in the regular CIP Levy that special Park Levy number dropped down um [1:40:50] ahead of time because all the debt service of the fire it was kind of to to flex with that so that was planned that [1:40:57] way but that project is not included the special Park Improvement Levy per want [1:41:02] to explain a little bit more about current special Park Improvement Levy for um that was in response to kind of [1:41:10] your request of Fast Track a lot of The playgound Replacements and then the next series of um Park shelter buildings so [1:41:16] that was that projection and Ari is correct is that that that then uh did lower try to help balance that l [1:41:23] projection so that's gone through if you kind of consider um trying to Rattle [1:41:29] them off here Lewis Park stard Park Wooddale um Fox Meadow um all of those [1:41:36] have been kind of that 23 24 and projected 25 Replacements could ask a quick question [1:41:43] on L Park uh at the time we we push that back further into the [1:41:49] CIP we were talking about the possibility of having a budg of surplus sufficient in U quantity to do the Louis [1:41:57] part shelter building we haven't heard anything about that at least I we're still audit still working on audit right [1:42:03] now and that at the end of that audit process for 2024 we'll we'll know whether we were plus or minus in terms [1:42:09] of surplus and one thing I do want to also point out is that the construction fund [1:42:16] levies it's a another crucial Financial tool right we're supporting our Capital Improvement needs at the city of Edina [1:42:23] uh from your equipment Replacements to streets Park improvements like Perry mentioned and we need to continue to [1:42:29] support these needs um as we consider a steady support for balancing out the needs of maintaining and of varing [1:42:36] preserving our existing infrastructure so I just want to remind us [1:42:41] that the blower just came on so did you go back for one [1:42:49] second maybe not go back um one thing that's okay I can just say it verbally [1:42:56] the timing of fire assuming assuming that fire station number three ends up [1:43:02] being located near City Hall the timing of that project needs to happen in an [1:43:08] odd year in order to not significantly impact elections so there is some just [1:43:13] so you understand and that the when it comes on typically the bonding amounts come on like the year after the project [1:43:20] so there's some timing discussions about when you can do improvements with the either Police Department City Hall fire [1:43:26] station number three if we're going to impact city hall because of the elections and so I just want to note [1:43:32] that that if you move something like that it can't just move back one year it needs to move back two years because we [1:43:37] got to kind of hit those odd years in order to preserve our parking lot because we need that place to [1:43:44] park so orders yeah all good you're next [1:43:50] here so P touched on this a little bit but [1:43:57] the on demand maintenance or I guess the backlog of Maintenance that the city has um you know we last showed this slide to [1:44:03] you we had 2023 numbers of $ 46.2 million these are maintenance needs at all over for cities facilities Citywide [1:44:11] um they've crept up to $ 47.7 million in 2025 and we're projecting them to be at 53 million in two years um you know with [1:44:20] aging infrastructure aging buildings things like that obviously these numbers go up and you start seeing them kind of [1:44:26] exponentially go up the farther away you get from new construction based on you know mechanical equipment HVAC systems [1:44:32] um roofs things like that um so we've kind of looked at our our deferred maintenance list and we're realizing [1:44:39] that the $2 million that's allocated to the capital Improvement projects every year is insufficient you know we need to [1:44:46] spend that at least um $2 to $3 million annually to dig our Sals out of the hole [1:44:51] and so that we're no longer exceeding that uh that pace of2 to$ four million doll a year on the bottom there you'll [1:44:58] see the kind of the facility condition index so this is how we grade our city buildings you know there's there's uh a [1:45:03] 39 is kind of above what our Target is 0. 25 or uh 25% is what we should be at [1:45:10] that means the majority of our buildings are good um to excellent condition there's some that are maybe teetering on [1:45:15] the poor fair but for the most part we're at you know pretty good operating condition that 39 is driven by those two [1:45:23] Edinburgh and Brar right so we talked about Edinburgh a little bit here at the beginning um and we'll probably talk [1:45:28] more about it but uh Brar is the other large one and we know that um The Lost project that's going to be coming up [1:45:34] it's starting designed soon uh will drop that number significantly that point4 five will uh be reduced but it's not [1:45:42] totally going to eliminate the uh the percentage of buildings that are kind of starting to get into that poor condition [1:45:48] that we have and that's Brar Arena not the gulf correct okay thank you yep [1:45:55] any questions on this [1:46:03] slide so then we'll talk a little bit about you know where we're at with our CF needs per facility kind I before $2 [1:46:09] to $3 million you'll see that the long lines of Edinburgh and Brar Arena those are the biggest needs and biggest chunks [1:46:16] uh but then we have other buildings in City Hall where we have almost 5 or $6 million of facility needs um in addition [1:46:22] to that you know the Public Works building and some of our you know golf facilities also have some higher levels of needs [1:46:29] you know from the outs outside you kind of look at these buildings they look like they're really good conditioned they're working you know perfectly but [1:46:36] the biggest needs that we have are really centered around HVAC and ring need that's kind of the bulk of it on [1:46:41] our so want to skip to the next slide real quick we talk about um rmar Arena that [1:46:51] remember Jackson raised it a couple minutes ago uh and we talk about the impact of local offer sales tax which is [1:46:57] going to put us in nice shape from a facility standpoint sounds like you [1:47:02] still got a gap that you're anticipating for for ongoing maintenance and yeah I [1:47:08] think Derek showing because they haven't been they haven't happened yet so they're still on his so that projection [1:47:14] is going to come way now yeah how far we can get for dollars available and what those priorities are we'll see as we go [1:47:20] through this process but we're hoping to okay drastically Dro yeah I noticed in the memo that you thought there was still going to be a gap even after we [1:47:27] spend the money call optional sales tax money I think the way the paragraph Was Written is that um while we can take [1:47:32] care of rayar we're not taking care of Edinburgh Park that was my interpretation of that is that that [1:47:38] paragraph was kind of combined that sense yeah so the big issue is what to deal do with Edinburgh Park yeah and but [1:47:43] I still think for the arena um not to get into specific detail we can kind of talk about that on Tuesday but because [1:47:50] we have to do sp230 and a lead or be process there's a conversion from natural gas to electricity so um a lot [1:47:58] of our existing infrastructure will also have to be upgraded to meet those uh Green Building policy goals and that [1:48:04] could impact how we prioritize Replacements thank can you go back to [1:48:10] that previous slide so with the liquor [1:48:16] stores um because they are an Enterprise are they ponying up the funds for the [1:48:22] building costs or is that something that comes out of other [1:48:27] sources uh kind of a mix right there's certain things that the liquor stores are able to fund and then there's are [1:48:33] other things where we might we use asset preservation or some of the capital Improvement funds to take care of it it's all kind of based on scale and size [1:48:40] um you know it's tough to put to dat we haven't used any general fund dollars liquor [1:48:49] stores what other funds that are not generated by the liquor store not to my [1:48:56] knowledge I don't know about the past but we've not used any general fund or other sources of revenues only liquor [1:49:03] store to my knowledge over the past thank you one other quick note [1:49:09] about this slide is this is also assuming like for like with the cost based off of when the original asset was [1:49:17] put in like was put in so these numbers don't necessarily match with what is [1:49:23] would truly be needed in Edinburgh so like I think it you probably can't see it because it's kind of hard but 15 [1:49:29] million is probably you couldn't replace Edinburgh for $15 million it would be a [1:49:35] much larger number than that so just context on that um slide yeah doesn't [1:49:41] get us any of the the niceties that people might be looking for in a renovation project in the most [1:49:48] part and I touched on this before but this last slide is kind of just a summary so you know our deferred [1:49:54] maintenance costs are are greatly U um increasing every year and it's outpacing [1:49:59] the CIP about a third of that as we showed before um is from those two sites with [1:50:05] Edinburgh and Brar Ice Arena uh we expect that to be reduced at the ice arena so the next time we show this [1:50:11] slide to you hopefully we'll be able to pull those numbers down and then unfortunately most of the stuff that we have is it's it's things like roof [1:50:17] Replacements and um HVAC equipment uh it's not the you know the flashiest of [1:50:24] projects but it's the most important thing I guess from keeping a building and our assets uh maintained and secure so the long-term um viability of our [1:50:33] site and our our uh buildings is is being maintained and kind of you know consistent by being able to replace [1:50:39] those things so I have a question about when we talk about Street repair Chad will show how maintain the streets keeps [1:50:48] the value of the streets they don't have be you know they longer life [1:50:53] when we talk about this as a council can that be one of the slides that you show how um this kind of infrastructure work [1:51:00] even though it's not flashy you're not going to have a great grand opening extends the life of the building that [1:51:06] really helpful you know the the reason I point out with Replacements and hbac Equipment they both have lifespans of [1:51:12] about 20 years a piece right so that's when you'll start seeing some of these buildings have those big major uh costs [1:51:18] incurred is at those intervals and um you know I think pod shown this but those are to things that we're talking [1:51:23] about you know options for bonding can we replace a large chunk of our roofs throughout the city over 2 to four years [1:51:30] that will hopefully get us through those next 20 years and the same would go for HVAC [1:51:40] systems no I think it worked or was that you that was me [1:51:46] okay yes please oh there you go okay I wanted to [1:51:52] jump in and just give a quick Preamble before P continues around this discussion about local sales tax you [1:51:58] know we've had some discussions around local sales tax here and I know there's varying levels of interest and support [1:52:05] for it I can tell you however that if we if we decide and continue to decide that [1:52:11] the key metric for tax policy for us is going to be [1:52:17] managing the U the property tax levy we can't do uh major we can't do [1:52:25] any more major property tax uh funded uh projects like Edinboro park or like an [1:52:31] upcoming project probably maybe of the pool someday unless we have a source of Revenue like a sales tax um everything [1:52:39] else that we have all of our other funding vehicles are are generally going to be have some kind of property tax [1:52:45] impact except for sales tax and except for franchise fee that doesn't mean they don't have impact on people we know that [1:52:51] they have impact on people but they don't those two sources and this is the first one we're going to talk about doesn't have a direct [1:52:58] property tax impact and it also has the potential to scale up uh for uh what we [1:53:04] what some of the projects that we're looking for and I think that's an important thing to not to we have [1:53:10] authorization uh to do a half cent sales tax for 19 years uh right now we are are [1:53:17] probably four years into that time frame uh we are we are getting getting more [1:53:23] we're we're we're seeing more Revenue than we thought we were going to see but once those uh we have $71 Million worth [1:53:30] of of spending authorization once we've achieved that 71 million uh in the [1:53:36] current uh sales tax environment that sales tax drops off to zero so as we begin talking about sales taxes there's [1:53:43] a lot of discussion going on around sales taxes at the state legislature so what we're looking at here is is Senate [1:53:49] file 375 which appears to be the the major bill that's going forward but I don't think there's a house companion [1:53:55] yet um so that's kind that's where we are on sales tax so if I may um I saw a [1:54:02] report that came out maybe two weeks ago about the how um the distribution of [1:54:10] people who uh consumer spending um and I think I don't know if it came from University of Michigan or or where but [1:54:16] it was a national study that showed um that a small percentage of wealthy [1:54:22] people are spending 50% of consumer dollars so in the discussion at the [1:54:27] legislature if uh somebody could raise that whether our lobbyist or someone to [1:54:32] sort of get an understanding of whether sales tax are sales taxes are as regressive as we have traditionally [1:54:38] understood them to be based on this new economic data um I think that would help us politically message to the public um [1:54:46] so oh sales taxes are so regressive maybe they're not as regressive as traditionally has been assume and so [1:54:53] that would be something when we're talking about sales taxes that would be helpful for me as a decision [1:55:00] maker all right so with that being said as I mentioned earlier some of these projects that we have in the Horizon [1:55:06] such as Edinburgh Park the golf course and other facilities and park projects [1:55:11] can benefit greatly from expanding on the usage of sales tax like Scott mentioned um I want to talk a little bit [1:55:17] about the recent Bill 375 that was proposed and this could impact how [1:55:22] cities fund Regional Improvement projects um this bill would allow cities [1:55:28] to impose a local sales tax without needing legislative approval but still requiring our our local um uh voter [1:55:37] approval um this proposed tax can be up to another half can be up to a half percentage and would fund essentially [1:55:43] City projects such as your libraries Public Safety facilities parks and trails community centers and athletic [1:55:50] comp complexes uh this will give cities more control and flexibility and financing necessary [1:55:56] infrastructure improvements like the one I mentioned earlier that we have on our Horizon this bill was based off of a [1:56:03] 2024 recommendation from the local tax taxes advis advisory task force um there [1:56:10] is though a key requirement that 5% of tax revenue that we uh get will be [1:56:15] shared with our qualifying neighbors cities to and that theirs with us as [1:56:21] well so with that being said since the February 26th hearing uh Senator Ann R uh dfl and [1:56:28] New Hope is leading this bill um she did propose a sales tax exemption for [1:56:33] construction materials but due to cost concern it was eventually not included um this bill is still being considered [1:56:40] for inclusion in the Senate's uh budget bill so stay tuned and follow up on it um this bill has strong support from [1:56:47] City officials and the league in Minnesota cities as it creates a CLA and transparent fending process allowing [1:56:54] cities to budget more efficiently knowing that it's expensive right so it's another um uh tool our financial [1:57:01] tool in our in our can you can you clarify or someone clarify [1:57:09] um so we couldn't use um local sales tags for deferred [1:57:17] maintenance but it does specify Regional uh benefit so that's that's [1:57:25] Brar and so can you you so you can't so you still [1:57:31] can't use it for maintenance for brain under current law okay under current law [1:57:37] this operational maintenance yeah so we can't pay staff but we could do the [1:57:42] capital investment okay all right all right okay that was the question every [1:57:47] jurisdiction has a different term for maintenance right so it's always operational versus infrastructure so [1:57:53] infrastructure yes to pay someone to make the ice or to paint the wall no [1:57:58] okay but okay I would note that property the property tax exemption for construction materials was not included [1:58:05] in this bill but we are seeking uh two of those clarifications uh through [1:58:10] separate means and we've had there we've had a couple of meetings around it that Katy s has got us and so that's moving [1:58:17] forward yeah so that would be a sales tax exemption for construction materials for fedur Park rmar Park [1:58:24] it looks like there is a house file companion is there yeah um [1:58:35] 1755 all right so to talk more about sales tax I'm going to provide you a little bit of facts of what our current [1:58:42] local sales tax is bringing in so life to date we've collected 11.9 million uh [1:58:48] in the last couple of years that when this local sales tax started uh in 2023 that is 5.4 million and then [1:58:55] in 24 that's about 6 and a half almost million um and of course uh with this in [1:59:03] mind those numbers I just want to call out for scale purposes uh in the projection I showed earlier we Levy for [1:59:08] about 5 a half million for debt payments in 2025 so if we consider the usage of [1:59:14] sales tax for collection the of about an annual about $6 million there is an [1:59:19] opportunity for us to uh take take off the burden of leing for these debt payments through collecting it through [1:59:26] sales tax and again like what Scott mentioned earlier it doesn't take off the burden of cost to Residents or users [1:59:32] but at the end of the day it takes off the burden from your property tax right [1:59:37] um with that being said our recommendation is that we don't lose this tool in our tool box we should [1:59:44] consider this tool for future projects like I mentioned the Edinburgh Park our marine Mar Golf Course Event Center that [1:59:50] we have projected in our Horizon to consider or think about um as decisions are still being continued to be have in [1:59:57] refining this bill we're asking that it's important for you to engage with with legislators to advocate for this [2:00:03] bill as it will help us plan and fund projects more [2:00:10] efficiently let me just add real quick P that it could offset what you're [2:00:15] currently but also could allow us to make greater investment as well so maybe we're we are able to afford property tax [2:00:22] to do something like the Aquatic Center to the level of regionalization that we would want to do it but it would also it [2:00:29] could go the other way as well that we aren't necessarily impacting reducing our Levy but it would allow us the [2:00:35] opportunity to do something that's more regionally significant and under that rest bill I [2:00:42] think that is it a self-certification on the regional significance of our [2:00:49] projects based on the list right and it also included public there's a list of qualified projects and [2:00:55] unqualified par were unqualified uh Parks Trails community centers [2:01:02] athletic complexes I believe there was a verification step with Department of [2:01:08] Revenue but not legislative approv right and they don't really have the 5% [2:01:16] um Equalization Factor worked out yet that's just that's still that's [2:01:21] something that's important to sen rest um don't know where that's going to be in the final that would be something equivalent [2:01:28] to what we do now with fiscal dispar could end up benefiting us though [2:01:35] because if we if Indiapolis has a local sales tax we could get a portion of that as well so there's the flip side [2:01:43] probably figure out withington having one any having one [2:01:50] but sharing all right any other comments on the [2:01:58] sales tax or sales tax in general before I flip it over to [2:02:04] chat okay you going to run the slides I can do it thank you so a little bit of [2:02:09] another piece of this discussion is a special Street Levy so we wanted to give you a little background in those impacts [2:02:14] here that Scott mentioned there's maybe an opportunity to fund that just a little differently with franchise fees [2:02:20] which will hit so the 2016 Council increased Street Maintenance budget what we were seeing starting in the late 90s [2:02:27] early 2000s when we were reconstructing streets and as we reconstructed streets we didn't have enough budget to do the [2:02:33] overlays the maintenance just like remember Jackson mentioned that right getting the money in at the right time [2:02:39] to extend the life so council at the time increased that budget so Brian and his team could do a lot of the overlays [2:02:45] and we could the big investment that residents made at 100% assessments could be extended for as long as possible [2:02:51] possible 2020 we had a potential project with a very large $33,000 reu assessment and the [2:02:59] neighborhood and the council said that's too high so we convened a task force and one of the members is here Ralph is here [2:03:05] he was on that task force and did a lot of work over that year lots of meetings and eventually got to an assessment [2:03:11] policy change in 21 going from 100% taxes or from 100% assessments to 100% [2:03:18] taxes and transitioning over 16 years so I can tell you that our program is sized [2:03:23] to that budget and the locations are based on the asset conditions right we don't want to make favorites of whose [2:03:29] neighborhood we're doing first it's really based on the streets the utilities the transportation needs from [2:03:34] a sidewalk standpoint and we build out that 5year program and those maps are posted online the table on the bottom [2:03:40] was a table created by the former Finance director donam on the impacts and these are 2021 numbers but they're [2:03:48] similar to what P's been showing you but year one we made a big impact to remove sub cuts and retaining walls and then [2:03:54] those years 2 through 16 what's the impact so that middle column increased to the levy at the time it said 65% [2:04:02] every year I think we're right around there 0.5% going forward so that's a a number between 260,000 to up to a half a [2:04:10] million dollars over those years and you're going to see that line item you have seen it in previous Levy in in [2:04:16] budget discussions and then how did that impact when you look at the next slide is [2:04:22] there's that increase in 17 we kind of bottomed out in 2012 for pavement [2:04:27] condition we like where we're at with the 78 that's a good spot to be at some cities have goals for number we never [2:04:33] sit an official goal but we are trying to be close to 80 with our Pavements uh [2:04:38] we made that increase in 17 during covid we decreased and created that budget stabilization fund that Scott mentioned [2:04:45] earlier and then we've been still on that same track of and I think this is important it's reconstruction and it's [2:04:51] maintenance to hold those numbers if we don't do both then we're going to have impacts if we only do one uh it's going to start to [2:04:57] negatively impact those numbers do you have projections of keep it the same versus your [2:05:04] proposal uh I don't understand of how it would continue on like if we [2:05:11] decreased how decreas the funding and only you're doing half we feel like the half mile is [2:05:18] going to not negatively impact this number cuz we caught we kind of caught up from that 17 till now and that half [2:05:27] mile is right on the number should so we can maintain we feel we can maintain we [2:05:32] think with that if we continued with more investment we would increase okay [2:05:40] thank you okay all right so like Chad mentioned [2:05:47] and we spoke a little bit about it earlier Chad feel free to jump in with any other additional comments you have on franchise fees but a little bit of [2:05:55] background on where franchise fees started with the city of Idina um we proposed increasing franchise fees for [2:06:01] Center Point Energy and Excel Energy in 2023 with the first increase set for [2:06:06] 2024 these fees are collected through utilities those utility companies uh via [2:06:12] customer building and then remitted back to the city uh the goal with this franchise fee is to generate an [2:06:18] additional about five uh $540,000 to support our pedestrian and cyclist [2:06:24] safety packs and our cast which is conservation and sustainability initiatives and Street Light maintenance [2:06:32] um further increases are planned for 2026 and 28 um aiming to double [2:06:37] franchise revenues from 2.1 million in 22 to about 4 4.1 Million by [2:06:44] 29 um currently during the 2023 discussion staff presented two other [2:06:49] potential increases that will be reviewing this year in 2025 and again in [2:06:56] 27 with that being said when I said there's two parts to there are two parts to Fran uh franchise fees that we will [2:07:03] need to determine first is what do we need to do how do we get uh franchise [2:07:08] fee uh revenue and two is how are we going to get this amount um we are [2:07:14] recommending in our initial proposal to increase franchise fees amount by about [2:07:19] uh $1 million with additional Revenue Revenue going towards streets any other amounts will maintain your our current [2:07:26] franchise fees with that being said there are two alter there's other two [2:07:31] other alternative to consider as well first being we can we can do no [2:07:37] incremental increase and increase will only be realized at its customer as customer based grows um the second one [2:07:44] is we can update our current fee model as supposed in 23 with incremental [2:07:50] increases at about 20 2% for all property costs um I have a question about how [2:07:57] this works um if we increase the fees does it uh impact electricity and gas equally or can we differentiate between [2:08:04] um what we do on electricity and what we do on gas they have C you can tweak it a [2:08:11] little bit but they have customer classes and you have to stay within those buckets so we can't just but you [2:08:17] can raise Less on residential and more on Commercial if we stay but you're talking about the the differentiation [2:08:23] between Gas and Electric yes I'm have my environmental hatat on that electricity is becoming more and more um greenhouse [2:08:30] gas less producing but natural gas which is what how most buildings are heated [2:08:35] has uh you know negative greenhouse gas impact so if we could raise it uh you [2:08:41] know more on natural gas and less on electricity that would help us meet our greenhouse gas [2:08:48] goals I'm not sure if we can do that or not the Pu spends a fair amount of time [2:08:55] making sure that utilities aren't uh negatively impacted by by by each other [2:09:01] by each other right so that that's why they're involved in the in the whole franchise feed process well I just want [2:09:08] to you know if if it's possible to have that greenhouse gas overlay on the decision I I've asked them we can talk [2:09:15] we can we can H talks in some cities do the the percentage based like a cable franchise fee they do this utility [2:09:21] franchise fee based on percentage or the flat fees like we do now but even when you do that they take the puc will take [2:09:28] a look at it to make sure that they are um fair to to each other but if we if we [2:09:34] have them linked and you drive an electric car right which presumably is [2:09:40] good for the environment but you keep your and and you or versus someone who [2:09:45] keeps their heat at 85 all winter long right the the Environmental impact is [2:09:51] very different um so that's that's all I'm asking for as we look forward if we [2:09:57] can ask you questions about that emissions impact of our decision one way [2:10:04] you can get at that though is the adop of percentage based franchise feed [2:10:09] because that franchise feed grows and and contracts with consumption so You' said 2.5% as an [2:10:16] example electric and gas so if you're spending all your heating on gas you're going to spend more you're going to pay [2:10:21] more in the speed versus but but if you keep your temperature at 60 all winter and you drive an electric car you will [2:10:28] also be negatively impacted so that's my point we can ask the question yeah okay [2:10:34] thanks the other thing that and I think this is what member of R was saying in the beginning is in my mind my initial [2:10:40] concern was well if we just are getting the exact same revenue from the exact [2:10:46] same population what does it matter right I [2:10:51] think it would be helpful to understand what is the impact comparatively [2:10:57] compared to Levy when we think about the population [2:11:05] of the payers of that money so when we talk about the impact to commercial [2:11:10] versus residential how does that differ from a franchise free fee compared to [2:11:18] um property impa cuz I wouldn't want to just if it's [2:11:25] going to be a net equal zero to the residents I don't know that it's worth [2:11:32] the time um because I think what we're trying to talk about is lessening the impact property test and they lessening [2:11:40] the impact yes with that's different than what I've heard from you before I think it needs to be lessening [2:11:47] the impact and I agree with Kate so I I don't know if I agree or not [2:11:52] y um so I think I [2:11:58] would I I like where remember Jackson was [2:12:03] going at the end of the day all of these changes are still going to impact [2:12:09] residents one way or the other and so the way I internalized what remember [2:12:15] jackon said oh and this may have been incorrect um [2:12:21] the challenge if you leave it 100% from a property tax perspective the resident [2:12:28] has less control over that cuz we said it right and so if to me if we change [2:12:36] things um a percentage of things to a fee and the resident has the ability to [2:12:44] impact that to me that's a good thing and we can sit down with the resident and say [2:12:51] yep your property tax has now gone down I totally making this up 6% we've [2:12:58] shifted this much to fees and these are the things you can do to impact that to [2:13:04] me that's a good conversation to have and and I think Carolyn had a a second [2:13:09] layer of good on that which is if you can attach it to gains and other goals [2:13:15] at the same time then that's a that's so there's the agency and then there's the link to other goals [2:13:22] yeah I I agree but um there there still [2:13:27] is an economic reality that is going to be different for different people and as we were having this conversation you [2:13:34] know yes you can switch to electric and make that choice and reduce costs you [2:13:40] can even pop in a power wall and solar panels and really ramp up but all of [2:13:47] that takes money and so you know just thinking about different in levels and what is the reality for different [2:13:54] households and what can actually be done I think is important so keeping that [2:14:00] element of fairness I think is really important and whether it's a flat fee or [2:14:05] a percent so on the flat fee side we can tweak it to say we want to do more on a customer class commercial versus [2:14:12] residential tweak that if we go to a percentage same thing we could set percentages between the two classes and [2:14:19] we've done some rough kelks on whether you're residential customer and how big your home is what you most likely see a [2:14:26] decrease in these fees versus commercial and not going to pay a bigger piece of that just by on the percentages of [2:14:32] energy use when you think about the percentages so um P has a slide up I kind of jumped in there but you can have [2:14:39] those different you can make those changes of tweaking which class is paying more of these fees I think the [2:14:44] important thing to remember is we note this January effective January 1st we need to know whether we want to go flat [2:14:50] Fe percentage and or increase the amount roughly in May because the Pu has to [2:14:56] review stuff do calculations and then we got to come back in August and do that final ordinance approval with councel so [2:15:01] this is a discussion we don't have till the end of the year to do we need to do that it's not the same as the budget cycle otherwise we just stay where we're [2:15:08] at this year uh that's the other alternative we don't make choices in time then it just stays where it's at [2:15:14] when do we need to make decisions about tiered water rates for [2:15:19] commercial when can be done anytime okay but there's a deadline I think we missed it last time [2:15:27] uh not for water necessarily CU that that's under our control well currently the rate study has percent increases [2:15:33] every year for the next next year so if we get to that point of asking for changes again to those fees at the end [2:15:39] of the year and we didn't have the rate study discussion you're probably going to be upset because You' asked for that discussion so I think there's a timing [2:15:45] for this year to have that discussion yeah we are planning on uh a utility rate study this year and so that will [2:15:53] come later in the year but in terms of fees Chad's right we will be bringing that to Council in like [2:16:00] October this fee no no no no uh I'm answering the tiered water rates for [2:16:05] commercial because we have been asking for that that's well it's typically with the finance correct table that comes [2:16:12] usually November the first look at it it's on their work plan it's on our work plan for this year for utility rate [2:16:18] study so back to a couple of questions some somebody on staff is going to hate me in just a second for even asking the [2:16:23] question but I'm going to ask it anyway um how complicated or is it possible to do any sort of U dashboard slider [2:16:32] modeling that breaks into tears property impact and franchise impact and you can [2:16:38] sort of you can play with some of the you can real time some of the the balances between the two and project out [2:16:46] 5 10 years or whatever or current [2:16:52] I think that's some of what I'm I'm hearing would be useful is is the ability to sort of see those relative [2:16:58] impacts and play with them in real time we can maybe run a couple scenarios what may be the easiest way to interpret that [2:17:04] but I think that the key piece is are you interested in increasing it for the [2:17:09] purposes that we've laid out and then uh do you have a leaning one way or the other about flat Fe versus [2:17:16] percentage um those are kind of the two and then we can bring you back many scenarios that show impact about how [2:17:23] that works the other thing I would say that could be a factor in the conversation I think carollyn rais [2:17:30] interesting issues relative to the franchise fee but let's face it it's a [2:17:35] tax and and when you look at tax and deductibility you can deduct your you [2:17:42] get some deductibility around your property tax I don't think the franchise Fe [2:17:48] deductible so that could be if you're resident in your in the town that's [2:17:53] thinking that well Ruth bur going to get my best benefit we have to factor in that tax and implication that's do you [2:18:01] do you know Nick if it's not deductible for uh individual on your [2:18:07] income not on an individual basis but okay it's an operating cost of of a [2:18:13] business okay but it's not it's not on the list of taxes you can if you itemize your taxes no for individual [2:18:22] fire and and remember there's an assumption on the itemization that I mean that's that's a higher that's a [2:18:28] higher income family to begin with that is itemizing especially if the the changes from a couple of years ago [2:18:35] continue right with the doubling of the standard deductions um so that's whether it can [2:18:41] be deducted or not is sort of a higher class problem less of a but you could [2:18:47] give us the the um direction or the goal that you would like us to minimize the [2:18:52] impact on residential customers and instead look at increasing commercial rates that is something we can make a [2:18:59] determination and I would say right now from my history of understanding where we're at commercials actually been lower [2:19:06] percentage wise than residential yeah so even if we just make them closer to the [2:19:11] same that actually would have um more of an impact on Commercial than residential [2:19:18] and the the smaller energy users residential and the businesses would benefit the larger ones are the ones [2:19:24] they're going to have hey mine went up exponentially potentially on those high if you go to a percent commercial but [2:19:31] they also have larger bills but they also have larger bills and may not see those impacts so and when are you [2:19:38] looking for that direction we need it may well first do we want to raise these fees to cover Street Levy that was the [2:19:44] question yeah so that's if there's a some opinions there then the second [2:19:50] piece or the amount right these amounts if you say no then we don't need [2:19:55] to talk about question two if you say yes then it's we need to run some scenarios and talk about flat fee versus [2:20:01] percentages and run some of those tables and stuff that we just promised to [2:20:07] compare with taxes this will come two Council in the way that you just framed [2:20:12] it we're not you're not asking us to do that today but if you have a preference I think we need [2:20:17] percentages not a flat fee like again Julie percentages rather than a plat Fe [2:20:24] don't we and we'll give you the advantages and disadvantages of both so there's there's pluses and minus with [2:20:30] each one of those I'm leaning toward the percentage model though Julie I think we've talked a lot about that over the [2:20:36] last few months there's some other advantages to that by well yeah we have [2:20:44] to yeah the keyword decide like we need to like by April like really we need [2:20:49] direction sooner me so that we can be ready by May for you to decide well may [2:20:55] was feedback hey we're going to go with this and this don't need official approval till August but pu needs to run [2:21:00] the numbers the utilities need to run the numbers so we can come back to you to actually show the property class [2:21:05] impacts that they need to calculate so may would be be the the feedback to know [2:21:11] which direction to your first question I you no I was saying yeah to your first [2:21:17] question about the street Levy it sounds as SO gas and electricity would run [2:21:22] together but if we put um and I know this is combining multiple different [2:21:28] government taxing authorities but if we put it as a percentage on both gas and [2:21:36] um uh electricity that is one way of having electric cars help to pay for the [2:21:43] maintenance of the streets uh which because they don't pay the gas tax they're currently not doing so I guess [2:21:49] that really increases my question about the severing the two different types of [2:21:54] utilities um and so if it was a percentage and we did it on both of them [2:22:00] uh that helps to cover that lack of gas tax um so I'm less concerned than about [2:22:05] the Seance that's so I think no I'm just going do I think we [2:22:13] should do percentage I think we should look at the balance between commercial and [2:22:19] residential I'll even add one more on that um I would prefer not to have [2:22:26] savings for the more utilization so I would look at some of those scales whereas right now and I think that's [2:22:32] some of the conversation we're having about water like it almost seems like sometimes the more water you use the lower your your rate gets um based on [2:22:40] the size of facility and so that's something I I want to be conscious of I [2:22:46] I would hope that the more they're using the more they would be impacted by this and that's like the Scott's point that [2:22:52] percentage model does that but there's going to be some big users that are going to be they're going to go $2,000 [2:23:00] go 10x on their fees because of their use it's tied right to the use and you can only set a percentage in these [2:23:06] property classes you can't break it in even more buckets or now 10x on their fees is not the same as 10x on their [2:23:12] bill ex right so you might not even see it they may not even though it's a big number for US yeah so if I'm hearing so [2:23:20] far your leanings and I know it's this is you know straw boat doesn't matter yet [2:23:25] leanings right you really care about that you're [2:23:30] leaning that and whether that it's so [2:23:37] yes yes depends on the impact is that what I'm hearing for me [2:23:44] um I would want to include the street lovey um or the street Rec instruction [2:23:51] as part of that um I think it if was just on the PS and [2:23:57] the cas it's much more difficult decision and the street lighting a [2:24:02] little bit so I was thinking this was okay yeah okay yeah that's all we're [2:24:07] talking about yeah that's our proposal now is the street Levy two years ago when I was in [2:24:13] front of you it was it was just doing more packs more C so I'm heing you really want to focus on this proposal [2:24:19] that's here on the street okay we can bring you those scenario right so you're leaning yes on raising [2:24:27] for the street lab with ly with a balanc approach with thinking about the balance residential and Commercial and and no [2:24:35] more volume discounts in other words moving toward percentage perfect I should I feel a [2:24:42] duty to tell you that I mean one of the downsides of that of following that proposal is that you're going to get [2:24:47] some feedback from eec and Etc that's not probably not supportive of what we're [2:24:52] just talking about here and we just have to manage our way through that they both wanted those franchise fees to expand so [2:24:59] they could do more of the programmatic uh things that they wanted to do but [2:25:04] duly noted okay so I I'm still up in the air about which way to go because I as a [2:25:10] taxpayer I'd rather have the deductibility but um and I thought I [2:25:15] think this is uh regressive [2:25:21] well I I think well that's where where the res versus commercial comes in well I I'd want to you know I don't mind I [2:25:28] don't mind drilling down on this idea a little bit but I still got my reservations about whether or not we had [2:25:33] a shift away from property tax [2:25:39] um I got reaction I'd rather pay a little bit more property tax and have it deductible then they have [2:25:45] a an increase in a progressive tax so I I I'm glad we're talking about [2:25:52] the first one I don't I don't disagree with you [2:25:57] mayor but then my question is going to be all right if we don't do it then how are we going to reduce our tax [2:26:04] level and I don't know the answer to that yeah I have said before if you give [2:26:11] me a $200 million it spend I can optimize that thing to the [2:26:18] hills cuz I understand the components of it I don't understand all the components [2:26:23] of this budget but I know we're going to make decisions that [2:26:29] are going to be regressive taxes they just are but I don't know any other way to do [2:26:37] it and so that's why I was saying I value and Trust we have to value and [2:26:45] Trust staff's recommendation of how to get there we can set a Target and that's where the flexible modeling comes in [2:26:51] right and on commercial and residential and what you move at what pace because it's to carolin's point earlier it may [2:26:59] or may not be regressive depending on how you depending on how you structure it and [2:27:05] and again the the deductibility [2:27:10] um on on regressive concerns may be a red herring because again there's only a [2:27:16] small percentage of the country that itemizes but it's right to [2:27:24] when we get to the end of the day what I'd like to see is inad of James's point I think was really good one is that if [2:27:30] if we said okay uh uh if we can reduce taxes by uh by a half a percent or [2:27:38] percent by moving this to the fee what does that mean and and that's uh part of [2:27:45] the analysis that will be going on this summer and this fall I just want to be able to make comparative yeah yeah and [2:27:52] so the way I was understanding this is going to what are we then offsetting in the budget or what portion the budget is [2:27:58] is contributing to I thought it was being proposed as [2:28:05] the two others plus Street reconstruction like could it increase all three um so I think that might be [2:28:12] something we should continue like we can have that as a separate discussion of does 100% of this go to Street rec [2:28:18] construction or are additional projects from E ECC that we want to also consider [2:28:25] and maybe it's a percentage base right so 10 10 and 80 is a potential but I I [2:28:31] want to see some of those numbers to understand I think manager Neil made a great Point Yeah we actually proposed [2:28:37] two increases in the next four years so this is just the first first one so there may be consideration of doing that [2:28:43] other increase in two more years and the percentages are up to you guys right where the money goes and and do we have [2:28:50] data to see who would be paying more understanding of sorry to interrupt [2:28:56] but yeah we've run some rough numbers based on our benchmarking data for four different house sizes and two different [2:29:03] commercial size properties so if you could compare that to uh property taes [2:29:08] but it's back of the napkin enough to be dangerous so we'll share it with you but it's not from the Pu they're not willing [2:29:13] to do the no no no I'm just saying you know what Kate Point earlier is like if if if the same people we talking about [2:29:20] the same people is it you know who is going to be more impacted by a property tax levy and who's going to be more [2:29:27] impacted by a um a franchise fee and to James point then you know the property [2:29:33] tax you don't have any aeny really in that other than just you know I don't like my property tax is where they're at [2:29:38] but you know whereas hey if I lower my heat I don't have to pay as much as this Frise y so that that that's an important [2:29:46] element in making this decision s can we put a in in this one and discuss it [2:29:51] later I just want to be mindful that the next conversation is Nick and Bill and they're leaving after lunch so I want to [2:29:56] give a little time to to have that one and then we can come back to this yep 100% I can stay here [2:30:07] hell so we were asked to look uh into some of our tax incit financing districts and give provide an overview [2:30:14] of that and so I'll start off with some general comments and then I have some specific um options on next two slides [2:30:21] Adina has 12 active Tiff districts um some are older been around for 10 10 [2:30:27] years or so some we just set up a few months back so there's a wide variety in those districts 10 out of the 12 have [2:30:36] active binding legal commitments associated with those either commitments to use the revenue that's collected to [2:30:43] pay public debt through like Street projects or to make payments to the developers to reimburse them for their [2:30:48] costs so those 10 districts we certainly could decertify them and we would get [2:30:54] sued by our by our debt holders the next day so I'm saying 10 of those districts are what they are until they're finished [2:31:02] um we do evaluate them every year to kind of see where they are so um uh but [2:31:09] I don't I don't forecast any change in those 10 for for for several years two of the Tiff districts um are [2:31:17] smaller but we could make some changes uh and I'll get into those in the next slide and then we also have two Legacy [2:31:24] Tiff accounts um that go back uh many years uh at uh the Cent Centennial Lakes [2:31:32] tip account and then also more recently the Southdale 2 tip account uh those uh [2:31:38] districts are already decertified so they've reached the goals that we set for them uh they you know took the tax [2:31:45] base and increased it by 600 1,000% um so they're no longer collecting Tiff but there still is some [2:31:52] money sitting sitting in the account so let's talk about the two Tiff districts [2:31:57] that we could be certified apologies for all the text here but uh there's two districts the [2:32:04] aminon tip district and the 66 West so we set up aminon uh to help get that [2:32:11] affordable project the workforce housing project going uh there there's about um [2:32:18] $60,000 in an account uh we set up that account for two [2:32:23] reasons number one state law said we had to and the second was when we set it up [2:32:29] we wanted to use that District as a future ongoing funding source for future [2:32:34] AFF for future affordable housing so uh based on the numbers that Nick ran over [2:32:40] a 20-year period of that Tiff District we would collect about $1.6 [2:32:46] million uh of tax increment that we could use for a future affordable housing [2:32:53] project yes part of that thought process as well is that the city actually invested money [2:32:59] to acquire that property and write it down for the development so in some sense you made an investment that is [2:33:06] being repaid that is intended to maybe roll back into to fund other affordable [2:33:12] housing projects but that's a discretionary item it was not set up as a debt of the [2:33:21] so if we wanted to we could close down that District early put a small amount [2:33:27] of the tax bace back on the overall tax roles the immediate benefit to the city [2:33:33] is that we would receive a one-time cash payment of of about $20,000 to use for anything you wanted [2:33:40] to use it for um the other one-time payment would be about [2:33:45] $42,000 uh which is about 21,000 would go to the county 21,000 would go to the schools then the [2:33:53] state would come and deduct 21,000 from the schools and take the money for the state so the the schools are always uh [2:34:01] there's not a great impa a great impact to them um so I question I'm confused um [2:34:09] and I'm confused because I just don't understand it so the with the [2:34:14] Tiff construct right you got the increment and I think this is is saying [2:34:21] a share of that increment is going into the 1.6 million over 20 years [2:34:27] correct and so if we desertified [2:34:32] early the impact to the general fund is just the [2:34:37] 21,000 hypothetically or that's where I'm confused so at the end of 20 [2:34:46] years when when you do your slide and you talk about we're increasing the pie M right I'm so I'm looking for the slice [2:34:54] of the pie and trying to value that slice of pie I think we need the information on what's the add base value [2:35:00] to city tax role essentially what you would do is you would you would increase the base [2:35:06] which would mean that everyone else in the city would have a slightly lower Property Tax Bill than next year okay [2:35:15] you wouldn't get any other additional money you you get what you let you yeah [2:35:20] right yeah but now you're spreading that Levy over a potentially you know [2:35:26] very a larger tax base just like new construction just like appreciation on values the same mechanism you don't [2:35:33] necessarily get more money but if you chose to you could increase your Levy by approximately a third of what you're [2:35:41] collecting and it wouldn't have a detrimental impact to any of your taxpayers because now you've got this [2:35:48] new property that's showing the tax roles does that make sense yeah I understand what you're [2:35:56] saying if it's something that if it's something that is of interest to you we can we can run some hypotheticals and [2:36:02] see what those numbers might actually you look like we just wanted to get the conversation started here yes I'm just [2:36:07] trying to be clear the if if our conversation is how we're [2:36:15] impacting the budget property tax levy [2:36:20] we need to understand what is the impact to what and this doesn't suggest that it [2:36:26] I mean it's not clear what it is so in in in the immediate term right you pay out 21 you get 42 and you get 17 and so [2:36:36] you've got a net gain but in the long run you're giving up opportunity is that the no no right now what you're doing is [2:36:43] you're collecting $221,000 worth of Revenue that you can use to fund affordable housing if you don't want to [2:36:48] spend that money you would dis certify this Tiff District yeah and you could raise your Levy by about [2:36:54] $7,000 next year and it wouldn't have an impact to your taxpayers they would be [2:37:00] paying roughly the same as they would expect so this does nothing to the levy [2:37:07] it just changes what the potential percentage impact felt by residents is [2:37:14] from that same Levy correct correct we do really need to know what the added [2:37:20] base value to the city tax Ro would be so it's um for the amend it's uh just [2:37:26] under 177,000 and then for the 66 West it's about [2:37:32] 25,000 okay so that that's the tax base but we haven't put you know Nick's estimate was about $7,000 what you could [2:37:40] add um we we haven't done the the math other than just a equ it depends on what your Levy is honestly but it's about [2:37:47] 7,000 but that tax base like $16,000 or $177,000 for Amison is you know well [2:37:54] actually I did calculate it it's 0.019% of our tax [2:38:00] base so drop in the bucket okay but it's a drop it's a drop [2:38:06] but here's when I see amonson um and we talk about Tiff and I [2:38:12] see these numbers just so people know how my mind is working and I drove past [2:38:18] that sad Louis building and that is the one that serviceson blats all those kids [2:38:24] living right next to um the power station okay that 21 is a good chunk of [2:38:33] what we need to rebuild BL part okay and it's one time it's one time but it's you [2:38:40] know significant um it would million dollars to replace the building I know but it's [2:38:46] it's getting a little bit going okay and that 4.8 million that [2:38:52] we gave that was Tiff funding and that went to the 7200 building on France [2:39:00] Avenue that was for affordable housing and that was nearly $5 million [2:39:06] that would have been 1.6 million to the general fund that definitely would have [2:39:11] paid for the Louis Park Building and the thing that is complicating the situation [2:39:16] is in the Pud we were promised to % affordable housing for that project in [2:39:22] the Tiff agreement we were promised it and then we end up paying for it with [2:39:28] the 4 million of Tiff so I feel like um [2:39:33] just in terms of being stewards of the limited resources that we have we really [2:39:39] need when we do a PUD and there's a promise for affordable housing it needs [2:39:46] to be understand understood that we are not going to Pony up the money and pay for it ourselves because that ends up [2:39:52] really taking significant amounts out of the general fund and yeah okay 21,000 [2:39:57] isn't going to get that park building it'd be a drop but it'd be something and I just I keep thinking we spent like 5 [2:40:05] million on something that we were supposed to get straight up and that could have been used for an EMT it could [2:40:12] have been used for that help get rid of the Deferred maintenance that we have so [2:40:18] anyway but there but there are two questions then that I hear one is is is a prospective policy question [2:40:26] about future Tiff and future funding um and a regret about how it's [2:40:32] been done in the past but so a prospective policy change that you're that you're advocating which I think is [2:40:38] a separate question from what's the potential budget or financial impact of [2:40:44] the existing of decertifying the existing tip districts totally here that [2:40:50] but that's this this is sort of the ship is already sailed so now that this ship has sailed now what's what's the [2:40:57] financial benefit or impact that we gain or lose from changing it as opposed to [2:41:02] what's our policy. tips going forward am I making sense you yeah but that's she wants to make a separate point but but [2:41:09] the other point is when we talk about it looks great like we will use 1.6 million for affordable housing how exactly are [2:41:16] we going to be using that are we using that to pay for something we were supposed to get for from the beginning [2:41:23] or you know what so it so it is kind of complicated wait a minute I think you here here's my view of it when we [2:41:29] started the affordable housing policy there was an opportunity to impose a 10% [2:41:34] requirement on a developer and require them to put the the financial commitment [2:41:40] in place to do the units that's no longer the case so [2:41:45] you're you're distinguishing you're you're uh conflating I think the commitment to by the developer to have [2:41:53] affordable housing in the building how it gets paid for our commitment now is that you you [2:41:59] commit to doing affordable housing in that building as a requirement to do a PUD but we're going to make the [2:42:05] investment in the affordable housing through the Tiff District it's a tiff District funding so it's a different [2:42:11] funding source you're right than what we uh historically did when we first started out but because of the rising [2:42:18] cost of land labor and lumber uh we have had to adjust that [2:42:24] policy so the question is we want to continue to make that kind of commitment to affordable housing from a city [2:42:31] standpoint make those Investments or not because we're not going to be able to force a developer to do it and have projects on our toone that's a separate [2:42:38] discussion so I agree with so I agree with everything that mayor just said to put a finer point on [2:42:45] it that's the other work that we're doing to look at affordable housing policy and so if we [2:42:52] decide we're going to make a change in that absolutely rank all of that's on the [2:42:58] table construct for today you got two big bangs the first one this minimally [2:43:06] impacts the first bang I talked about which is what is our tax levy When [2:43:11] September Comes what is that going to be this very minimally impacts that the [2:43:18] second second one right so in future then yeah talking [2:43:24] about our housing affordable housing policy and how we plan to or if we [2:43:29] should continue to use TI I think all that's on the table that's how I think about it okay and we do need to have a [2:43:36] more nuanced discussion because it averaged out to $330,000 per rental unit and a lot of [2:43:44] them most of them the majority 15 um I think only two are two bedrooms are just [2:43:49] single V but that's not today it's not today but it kind of you know when we say what [2:43:56] the benefit of clinging to the money is I just I think we need more Assurance on [2:44:04] how we're moving forward in investing those dollars and 1.6 million over 20 years is [2:44:10] not Caroline yeah thank you trying to get in so first of all we're talking [2:44:15] apples and oranges here the spark funds and I assume that's part of your present okay that's completely separate fromon [2:44:22] and 66 West as James pointed out we are going to have a discussion about our [2:44:28] affordable housing how we pay for it what our policy is and everything it's premature to talk about eliminating [2:44:35] These funds for a very very minimal impact on the city [2:44:40] Revenue without having first had that discussion about whether we want how we're going to fund affordable housing [2:44:47] this use of money that we have already collected from completely different districts and and how that's a another [2:44:54] slide so um this is simply about 66 West Amison flats and to me the impact is so [2:45:03] minimal on how much more Revenue we would have by decertifying these that we [2:45:09] can have this discussion in the context of affordable housing it's not appropriate at this time in my opinion [2:45:16] to talk about these certifying these just for minimum budget impact yeah I'll say based off of [2:45:23] what we're discussing about decertifying these I wouldn't be in support of it so [2:45:29] my personal would be let's table that um and not make it a part of our ultimate [2:45:35] Le budget that we come up with I joined uh member a saying that I [2:45:42] don't want to desertify those two districts for the short-term gain of the minimal but General Levy impact I think [2:45:48] it's better to K onto the money that we would develop or create over time to use [2:45:54] it for things that are presently undetermined from an affordable housing well let's jump to the next [2:46:01] slide so there's two other Legacy accounts um uh these are the Centennial [2:46:07] Lakes Tiff District that uh covered you know the office the retail the condos [2:46:14] the affordable ones the market ones the part the whole deal now that district is uncertified [2:46:19] was decertified about 10 years ago um but that is a really old Tiff fund that [2:46:27] is governed by a different set of laws than more recent Tiff funds it's the most flexible type of monies that we [2:46:34] currently have access to maybe one of the more flexible so we've used that [2:46:40] fund over many years to accomplish a lot of um a lot of different goals [2:46:47] um uh your predecessors um every time we use the [2:46:53] fund for a big project they would they make comments like gosh it's good to have a savings account that we can go [2:46:59] into to fund something because that way we don't have to put it on the general lby so for example um most recently we [2:47:07] funded um a block of bike trails sidewalk improvements and and kind of a [2:47:14] big buffer fence across the street from that Cornelia flats or the um for 4 40 [2:47:19] Flats um the neighbors were concerned about the the new construction going in [2:47:24] they wanted a buffer it wasn't in the developers budget it wasn't in the city's budget but we had funds in the [2:47:31] Centennial Lakes account that we could use to deliver this Improvement that the neighbors thought was the best thing in [2:47:38] essential so that was that project alone was just under [2:47:43] $700,000 so instead of hiking up the tax levy or killing one to fund that new [2:47:50] that new uh effort we could go to to the Centennial Lakes account and use those [2:47:55] monies so that's just one recent example of of what we've done with that there [2:48:02] are some funds that are still available um there's about $1.6 million in cash uh [2:48:10] invested uh in that account uh if you did choose to desertify it the city [2:48:16] would receive a one-time payment of about 530,000 um the other million or so would go to [2:48:23] the county and then to the state um uh [2:48:28] We've also used that fund to make some pretty big improvements at 15th in [2:48:34] France the land acquisition for the parking garages back 10 years ago and [2:48:39] then to build that parking garage at 50th in France that was uh about A1 million project just to expand the [2:48:47] parking garage we Ed the Centennial Lakes fund to build [2:48:52] that ramp you'll notice there's no debt on it there was no tax hike on it but it [2:48:58] was something that the community really wanted to get um you know to breath some new life in 50th in France so we did an [2:49:05] in fund loan of about $4.1 million um that that loan um we think [2:49:14] we're going to start to pay it back this year um we're starting to to assemble some monies in there so if we if we [2:49:21] would shut down this District we do get the one-time game of about half a million dollars um but we put at risk [2:49:29] the repayment of that $4 million over the next 25 years um so you're confusing [2:49:36] me yeah just maybe I'm going to address your question Bill's using the term [2:49:42] desertified okay these have been desertified these are these are done they're not active to districts these [2:49:47] are funds that were approved for spending within the [2:49:53] community that are left over from those previous tip districts [2:49:58] so it's it's the same thing as any other you know you've got a leftover balance you have a [2:50:05] choice whether or not you want to reinvest those funds into the community for certain types of projects they need [2:50:10] to qualify under the tip statute and the approv tip plan or instead you would [2:50:17] turn back the money you can turn back the money to the county and they redistribute it in the same way that [2:50:23] council member Risser just described where they they split it up between the three laring largest taxing [2:50:30] jurisdictions and everyone gets a a cut in a separate settlement um and that's a [2:50:37] one-time event you could shut down the fund in that instance um but it's not a [2:50:42] decertification I just want to clarify it so when we have Tiff proposals in [2:50:47] front of us today we see the big graph right with the the end date are we saying these were before [2:50:55] my time I think most of our times are we saying that you know we lived out that [2:51:00] life whether it was a 20e plan um we collected all of the money and we spent [2:51:06] it how we initially committed and there just happened to be more left over than [2:51:13] we anticipated maybe and so now what we're talking about is what to do with [2:51:18] that more money um that was above and beyond what we necessarily needed but [2:51:24] just in the general course we collected that is that is 100% okay the [2:51:29] uh thought process there are things that happen over that time period you refinance bonds and lower your interest [2:51:35] expense and save money that way there are things you don't spend that you thought you were going to spend um you [2:51:41] might collect more Revenue you know there's a lot of moving factors valuation changes valuation changes and [2:51:47] you have some flexibility with that with that leftover money when it's in the account that if you close the account [2:51:52] you lose that specific to Centennial L and I'm just pointing that out it's a it's what's referred to as a pre9 tip [2:51:58] District a tip District established before 1990 and it operated the way it [2:52:04] was supposed to operate for Tiff funds back in that time frame the legislature [2:52:09] at that time changed and put quite a few more restrictions on how you can use Tiff funds for all districts created [2:52:17] after that point in time so there's a lot of flexibility that you have to be able to spend on the types of [2:52:23] projects that bill mentioned in that fund that are different from any other tip fund that you have or will have in [2:52:31] the future I think what might be helpful for me is and I think that this is a [2:52:36] good understanding of the foundation but then even having a visual of I I think [2:52:42] is based on what you just said there's 6.6 million that could [2:52:49] either or may this is where it breaks down a little bit for me but like maybe [2:52:54] we'll go to the bottom one um we have potentially 5.8 month 8 5.8 million that [2:53:03] we could use for affordable housing or we have 1.9 million that we can use for [2:53:10] literally anything to decrease the levy let's say um with the top part though [2:53:16] that's where it kind of breaks down in my understanding cuz I don't understand what this like pre 1990 is and so what [2:53:22] I'm seeing on this slide is we have 500,000 that we could take back and [2:53:29] decrease the levy or do anything else with or but I don't understand the or as [2:53:36] much um as I do in the second example so that might be helpful [2:53:41] context I think the thought process is you know this is a there's a [2:53:47] historically just like you use the construction fund right you you you Levy [2:53:52] you have several sources of revenue that come in and you might decide to move ahead with a park or some other type of [2:53:58] a project and you budget and you allocate that existing resource to pay [2:54:03] for it it's a discretionary item you know think of it in the exact same way you can you can tap into this fund to be [2:54:12] able to do that kind of a discretionary spending as long as it satisfies the [2:54:17] statutory requirements right pr90 tip District it's a fairly broad set of examples of [2:54:24] the things that you can use it for I shouldn't have said park for lisis Park but you can use it [2:54:31] for uh Trails you can use it for pedestrian Crossing you can use it for [2:54:37] assisting a new development you can use it you know and there's a very broad list of capital items that you can use [2:54:43] it for just like you did for 50th in France bill right right and with those [2:54:48] funds historically we've used them only for public projects so um uh the the uh [2:54:55] the prominade trail if you remember when we expanded that and built more ponds and whatnot a few years back um it was [2:55:01] an opportunity that came up with that when LS rebuilt their flight Ship Store and so we used that fund at one point in [2:55:09] time uh 66 in New York had the new hotel the new residential the new ARA so two [2:55:17] of the corners were changed by the developers the city came back in and used our money to fix the other two [2:55:23] corners that were not changed by the private people and so we've used it in those opportunistic ways uh to help with [2:55:29] our infrastructure um so that that's when has been very helpful over the years Southdale number two District hold [2:55:35] on Bill here I mean here's another way I look at I don't know if this would be helpful or not but I I look at like Centennial Lakes Tiff fund it's let just [2:55:43] say it's a balance sheet and you've got 1.6 million in cash and you've got a [2:55:48] loan from others for 5 million bucks your total assets are $6.6 million all right if we hadn't had $6.6 [2:55:57] million and taken 5 million of it and loaned to the 50th in France district [2:56:02] and we still wanted to build all those parking ramps down there we would have had to borrow that money and we would [2:56:08] have had to Levy for it and the people in Idina would have had to pay for it in a different way right but we had cash [2:56:16] and so we put that cash in do it no uh no hit on the city of Edina residents [2:56:23] and now we're going to get that repaid unless we decide that we're just going to uh close it down which in which event [2:56:31] we'd get these one-time payments that you've got allocated up there plus we'd lose that ability to get that 5 million [2:56:38] bucks back corre so I think where the um opacity to the public is um is first of [2:56:46] all that these are different so with the South 2 Tiff funds are much more limited that's post 1990 law correct right so [2:56:53] these are two completely separate funds with completely separate rules but I think what people are [2:56:59] worried about is that we don't have a clear accounting of Because by having [2:57:06] cash well we say well we've got this money here um which giv us incredible flexibility and the ability to be [2:57:12] creative and everything but it also means that there's uncertainty from the general public is you know [2:57:18] what is this money where is it and so I think a a really close accounting of [2:57:24] these two accounts would be helpful for um for uh [2:57:29] transparency um and then because because I think the concern is if you are [2:57:35] suspicious you say oh this is kind of a slush fine for lack of a better I I hate to say that but um because I know we've [2:57:41] been using it for public projects that the public appreciates that have increased the value of our city but I [2:57:47] would like to have a really clear first of all separate them right and then to [2:57:52] have a clear accounting of where the money is how it has been used in the [2:57:57] past and then the ability the listing of what we can use it for and um [2:58:04] uh so you know it it does um it doesn't change anything but it increases [2:58:11] understanding um so it doesn't change how that money is used at this time but I I would really like to have a super [2:58:17] detailed account of that because this is in one bullet point very confusing yeah [2:58:23] and the balance sheet approach makes a lot of sense and I agree with what um member Jackson just said and I think it [2:58:28] needs to be very clear and on our website and I would add also the because [2:58:35] in the CIP um it says I believe it's like 17 million that coming from the Cal [2:58:42] Lakes District that is being earmarked for The Pedestrian under pass under [2:58:49] France Avenue and so there's that that's in the CIP and so I think there is a lot [2:58:56] of concern among the public about how tip funds are being used and I do think [2:59:02] for these districts and I really appreciate staff getting the um the [2:59:08] sheets to me showing payments from I think it was 2021 to 2024 from the [2:59:14] Centennial AES fund but that needs to be public information and should be from [2:59:20] the year it started being the first withdrawal that wasn't um a commitment [2:59:26] when the Tiff District was made the public should be able to see exactly how these funds have been spent and it [2:59:32] should be crystal clear I agree completely with M Jackson I have a question so the this one those two bangs [2:59:42] I talked about this one impacts the first bang cuz we could take Monies from [2:59:48] these funds and buy down pay down the L yeah 1% yeah one 1% one time yeah one [2:59:55] time so my question though is you've teed this up as [3:00:01] a as um either we do you've teed this up in a [3:00:07] way that there's only one option and so the question I have which might be kind [3:00:12] of complicated if we kept if we wanted to keep this cont construct [3:00:20] solvent is there an option that then says there's I don't know 200,000 [3:00:27] available that we could pull out and it stays solid is there a middle ground in [3:00:33] other words can Sun of it be used to spend down without closing the account it is 100% at the discretion of the city [3:00:41] council how much you turn back there's there's no this is lawful money that you are [3:00:48] able to keep and use yeah so they it has to be it has to be within the statutory [3:00:55] framework right you can't spend it on operations you can't spend it on a city hall but there are there's a broad array [3:01:01] of things that you can potentially that are in your CP that you could potentially use these funds for yeah [3:01:08] half million now and not close the fun the council can give back $1 or it can [3:01:14] give back all of it it's your choice but a third of it is all we would receive of whatever we give back yeah exactly so [3:01:20] whatever you give back if you want to give back $100 okay that's great but you're only going to receive $303 back [3:01:27] right the rest go goes to somebody else to spend so we could take some share of those funds to buy down the we don't [3:01:34] have to do the one time $1 million that's closing the whole thing yeah right and I would say that if [3:01:41] you're going to do something like that I mean so that you're solving a one-time situation so you plan to only use it for [3:01:48] something that is a one-time expense not not funding staff that is going to be a [3:01:56] recurring liability or not a liability but a a purpose of the entity going [3:02:01] forward it might be helpful to understand what is in the CIP or kind of [3:02:07] in front of us that we could possibly use the pre 1990 monies for so we've [3:02:14] earmarked that I think it's up to date already a lot of these Transportation projects and the infrastructure projects [3:02:20] is where we use it a lot of Chad Pro projects primarily where you're combining some sewer fund money some [3:02:27] storm water fund money some Transportation fund money and oh there's still a gap we're still short then we go [3:02:34] back to this to make sure that that project can actually get finished we're trying to stabilize our [3:02:40] budget like we I don't know that we want to take half a million dollars to buy it [3:02:46] down for next year mhm and so this idea of looking at the CIP in those [3:02:57] Trends to say all right maybe there is a project that we could pull out of that [3:03:02] that changes the trajectory of our operational spending into the future [3:03:08] like that would be different right but I don't I don't know that I would want to do the one time um cuz we don't get [3:03:15] benefit for that for the next year so I'd be thinking about it the way member [3:03:21] agu suggested and I I do like the fact that we have this construct available [3:03:28] and at the end of the day like these are taxpayer dollars and we're the [3:03:34] representatives that are trying to figure out the best way to use those um and you got affordable housing up here [3:03:41] so I'm just going to go back to the finder Point earlier we are going to look at our policy around affordable [3:03:47] housing we're going to continue to do that and come up with likely a different policy from what there and so for these [3:03:53] two May point is is can I can I make my point please and then just want to [3:03:59] clarify these are desertified T tip districts we are no longer collecting [3:04:04] money on these properties and I think that was unclear earlier that there's no new Revenue coming into these from the [3:04:12] the Tiff District that there that's done that's closed the this is a like a savings account and you can make loans [3:04:20] with it you can spend it but it's not growing based on the property that was [3:04:25] originally attached to that is closed I just want to make that point perfectly clear yeah there there's a fixed amount [3:04:31] in there I mean it get a little bit of interest but it won't grow won grow significantly and the these properties [3:04:37] are fully on the tax uh roles now it wouldn't change the tax rules at all if [3:04:43] we did made any changes that that Baseline that we Levy against is exactly [3:04:48] the same irrespective of how we choose to use these funds correct these are like rainy these are [3:04:55] like rainy day funds yes exactly right and you can use them when you got some emergency or some other situation coming [3:05:01] up where you don't want to Levy for when you because you you've got a little savings account in your back [3:05:08] pocket that is not inconsequential and so for the the Centennial Lakes fund especially works [3:05:14] that way Southdale 2 is a little bit different newer set of rules um the [3:05:19] rules have changed several times uh based on state law in the last couple years so South Dale 2 we might want to [3:05:27] revisit this conversation next spring because you you remember with the spark funds those have to be spent by the end [3:05:34] of this year and we've made pledges to try to get those monies invested in a Dina there's still no guarantee that [3:05:41] that apartment building will get their private financing they're working their rear ends off trying to get it financed [3:05:48] but if that doesn't move forward and we don't spend those monies [3:05:53] this year then we we should really rethink that because we might have a bucket of $5 [3:06:00] million that we might not have the flexibility to spend and that we might want to turn it back so I think it's [3:06:06] premature to make a decision and actually have the honest like the full conversation today because we just don't [3:06:12] know at the moment but a year from now I think we should revisit that soud 2 district and and see if if everything [3:06:18] has happened the way that we hop it would happen so to recap so we can get to lunch on this particular conversation [3:06:25] on this particular day we have the two we have you have 12 10 of which we can't [3:06:33] touch two of which the question is raised about whether to decertify clear direction to hold that [3:06:41] for a housing conversation not appropriate for this conversation the [3:06:46] two that are desertified but the question is whether to close the accounts or [3:06:51] not um which gets you some shortterm flexibility but it's onetime flexibility [3:06:57] and it loses longer term flexibility what I'm hearing is not a a [3:07:05] a need to make any decision today or to uh to close anything out there uh but [3:07:12] there's an interest that you might be able to draw some of what's there from [3:07:17] an open account into this conversation and maybe we need a longer term plan or [3:07:23] a comparison of what the options are with in tip so that you can make more nuanced decisions [3:07:31] yes okay it is [3:07:36] 12:25 um I assume lunch is here should been here lunch is across the is across [3:07:43] the way we set 45 minutes for lunch so if we [3:07:48] come back at 1:10 is that good for everybody everybody please get up and [3:07:54] move during this break no matter what okay all right how how are we doing so [3:08:00] far how'd the morning go for you you doing okay yeah I like the Lower Lights with [3:08:06] the [3:08:13] presentation all to you for lowering light day [3:08:21] anything else this morning we all good good oh yeah we're [3:08:29] good all right all right so next [3:08:36] up we have uh talk so we talked about it a little bit this morning now we're [3:08:42] going to come to it directly and talk about Labor um and um Staffing and those [3:08:48] sorts of things um for a little bit then we're going to essentially ask what other externalities haven't we talked [3:08:54] about that we need to have in our mind um as we go forward then we're going to loop back to the recommendations and [3:09:01] start um picking them off and and coming up with with our parameters for what we're doing and why we're doing it all [3:09:08] good and then you get a field trip you get a field trip I hope there's ice cream at the field there should always be ice cream at field I mean come [3:09:15] on you not know you're doing we got ice I don't know what I'm [3:09:21] doing field trip to fire station that screams ice cream to me do you get are you guys going to get [3:09:28] to where the hats and ring [3:09:41] bells see I the third grade me or the 55y old me would do that because um [3:09:49] coordination and hurting things policy yeah well [3:09:55] whatever rules are meant to be broken all right I think Mr Scott yeah [3:10:04] are we ready we are ready okay uh I'm going to give a a quick Preamble and then we'll get right into uh a [3:10:10] discussion around data um a city is a city is a city is not [3:10:15] really true right even even even if you look at just the West West Metro penan County cities that are comparable to AA [3:10:23] we we really have a lot of differences in terms of our scope and scale of of [3:10:28] city services um and that's meant that's what this data was meant to try to [3:10:34] embrace really is how how are we like our Pure cities how are we unlike our [3:10:39] Pure cities and how can we compare um we know that council members and Mayors [3:10:45] talk to other cities here things in in the media uh one of one of the things [3:10:51] that got me thinking more about this was this fall when when the mayor asked me why do we have 631 full-time employees [3:10:59] and I thought we don't have 631 full-time employees but there was some survey that was taken by uh some City [3:11:07] officials in another city that took data from us and didn't display it correctly and it got into the public sphere and [3:11:14] discussion and then we were having to talk about why wasn't true and and Etc [3:11:19] but so we wanted to to make sure you had a chance to understand how we are like and unlike our neighbors this particular [3:11:27] uh format for this information was developed by Lisa schaer um probably six [3:11:32] years ago and she would bring it uh from time to time to past Retreats Zoe has [3:11:37] taken it and updated it and really not just uh casually updated and she's verified she's made a lot of phone calls [3:11:44] and talked to people to make sure that the numberers we're using uh are numbers that the nataka or pth or Michael Grove [3:11:52] would agree that those are their numbers so that's what I wanted to say and Zoe [3:11:57] why don't you take it from thanks Scott um I'll say too before I get into some [3:12:03] of the numbers as far as content and navigation for this document goes um [3:12:08] this is an art not a science right so like with all of those phone calls and made and all the verification that I [3:12:14] tried to get um there may be um some nuances when it comes to [3:12:20] interpreting all of the differences that come into play with these different cities and the services that they provide their communities um and so as [3:12:29] we move forward with this handout I want you to keep that in mind as well as this handout that I've worked on has been um [3:12:37] focused on fulltime employees not full-time equivalents so basically [3:12:43] that's just meaning I'm trying to focus on our full-time headcount and so working mostly with whole numbers um if [3:12:50] there are integers or or non- integers or non-hole numbers in there it's because of um older reporting that I've [3:12:57] had to collect and um go off of Just because that's what was available to me or that's what I I was given um by those [3:13:04] other comparable cities when I was researching um so yeah with that I will [3:13:09] U move forward but as far as the first page um goes this is focusing on [3:13:15] specifically uh city of Adina employees for 2025 um and I will move uh left to right [3:13:23] but um so the first table you'll see is 2025 all employees by type so that's just breaking it down full-time [3:13:29] part-time and seasonal um the seasonal number I will say is a little bit [3:13:35] flexible you know depending on um there's a lot more turnover there so it's harder to get um verification there [3:13:42] between um our different presentations and HR and hr's um confirmation [3:13:47] but by and large um just over thousand employees of all types is what we've got [3:13:54] um for 2025 and moving to the right 2025 [3:13:59] full-time employees budgeted in general fund versus other funds so this was [3:14:05] taken from our 2425 budget book um and just as the title says it's just taking [3:14:11] it um where are these full-time employees budgeted out of or where are they getting paid out of um so by and [3:14:17] large it is mostly our general fund um you can see that um the other funds have [3:14:23] been slowly moving along um not as fast as our overall general fund um and again [3:14:29] it reflects our budget in employees not our actual employees Through The Years um moving along 2025 budgeted full-time [3:14:38] employees for all funds so this is when we look at the entire organization and all of our funds across all of our [3:14:44] departments how many full-time head accounts we have um within those within [3:14:50] those depart departments and this was taken from Finance or specifically from our um budget and tax levy presentation [3:14:57] from um December and the 17th can can we ask questions as you go yeah okay um [3:15:04] this is a great snapshot but I'm wondering how hard would it be to get a [3:15:09] chart that would show a breakdown for say the last 10 or 20 years of Staffing [3:15:15] Levels by Department I that would be super useful yeah um I can yeah we [3:15:21] focused uh for this Retreat to focus on the um shorter history um but uh if [3:15:28] that's council's Direction I can definitely go back and try to find a um a broader range if we want to see like a [3:15:34] bigger 10year history or um whatever it would just be really helpful for [3:15:39] understanding where the increases in Staffing have taken place because I think some departments have kind of held [3:15:44] steady um and others have grown and I don't have any idea which ones are which [3:15:50] yeah that'll just be a matter of me verifying with um Department directors however I will say like depending on [3:15:56] when those Department directors um have come on board like in their um in their [3:16:03] 10e here they might not have the full picture on how that happened or exactly how it was recorded because there's um [3:16:10] it's been a little bit difficult to see like when that new employee was counted through the year like if it was counted [3:16:16] um um in the first half of the year but was recorded for the next year for whatever reason depending on when that [3:16:22] um Staffing increase came online or came on board um but I can look back at um [3:16:29] other years and try and get a better breakdown um as far as like the overall counts as far as um as far as like [3:16:36] specific positions on um like the titles of who came online at um in those later [3:16:41] years that's going to be that's going to be the most difficult thing for me to verify so could um I understand where [3:16:49] member RK is going as you look at the data though um [3:16:54] don't try to go back where you've got data that's relative to what you're [3:17:01] trying to do today so don't go back and say well U said 10 years let me go get [3:17:07] 10 years cuz the the organization has shifted over time and so we actually [3:17:13] want to have data that's relevant so that we can compare so do the analysis and go back as far as [3:17:20] you can to where that that relevancy is material don't be too exha too overly [3:17:27] exhausted um and then the other question I had um this I'm just confused by so [3:17:33] you said 2025 full-time employees budgeted in the general fund versus [3:17:40] other funds right that's 358 yep and then the next one says budgeted full-time employees all f by Department [3:17:48] the numbers the same yep so that's um it's just taking um the second table is [3:17:55] just splitting up general fund versus all of the other funds from where they're budgeted out to so the overall [3:18:00] full-time headcount number Remains the Same um on the third table all I'm doing [3:18:06] is taking that same overall number right 358 and just instead of dividing it out [3:18:11] by the type of fund that they're coming out of I'm taking it um by Department same P the table Yeah [3:18:21] 350 so let me just correct that James the first one is all funds [3:18:28] and the third one is all funds no say that again the first one is [3:18:33] all funds y the first one is all funds and the second one is just general fund [3:18:39] versus all funds so that total is still 358 yeah okay one is just where it gets [3:18:46] paid for and one is where it's what department they in it's the same people the same okay so and Zoe what I would [3:18:55] recommend with the if we go back to the just go to the budget and the budget documents and see what was budgeted for [3:19:02] those number of things and then um either Scott or someone can help you understand well these employees were [3:19:07] moved like the public health people were moved to the fire station and then just put a star saying these 10 employees [3:19:14] were mov from this department this department um and but I would just use the budget numbers don't don't try and [3:19:19] get any more gr than that it's a snapshot in time yeah and there's a table um later in this handout that [3:19:26] speaks a little bit more to what you're saying as far as like how everything's counted with reorganizations and um [3:19:32] changes in types of employee if someone's going from like parttime and full-time or extended parttime and full-time um so hopefully that table [3:19:39] addresses some of that too but um I I get what you're saying yeah thanks [3:19:45] um um for the last table on this page um this is showing a snapshot of 2025 all [3:19:52] full-time employees by fund and so it's just breaking down the second table that [3:19:58] we went over a little bit more to say okay that's great we know everything that's coming in 2025 out of our general [3:20:05] fund but what about more specifically when we look at all of our different types of recreation funds our Utility [3:20:10] Fund our liquor fund and our um other miscellaneous funds and then I've got some um asteris there um to signify to [3:20:19] you all what I'm including in that bucket of recreation funds and the bucket of miscellaneous funds [3:20:26] um but with that I'll move on to the next page any [3:20:32] question um so on this second um page of the [3:20:37] handout this is looking at um 2025 budgeted full-time employees in a Dina [3:20:43] by those unique services that we have or that we offer offer in a DIN and this was collected by um City department and [3:20:50] division heads um and then verified with HR um but when we started um Talk [3:20:57] thinking about what are some of the more unique services that we offer in a these were the ones by and large that came [3:21:04] came up that um we think are are um you know different um not not by and large [3:21:10] not a lot of uh cities in the state or the country to offer these um services [3:21:15] and um so we wanted to take a harder look at these um for you all to see um [3:21:21] how what your thoughts are um as far as um as far as where we're Staffing levels are at so for the ambulance services [3:21:30] we've got 36 employees in our fire department that are dedicated to ambulance services and we're the only [3:21:37] city in henon County to provide Advanced life support ambulance services um our [3:21:43] main city that we'll talk about later that we use as a comparison city is Burnsville um but uh we'll get to that [3:21:50] table later um and then again these uh numbers are driven by there's three [3:21:56] ambulances that we have and they're each staffed with two paramedic firefighters 24/7 um following along with Public [3:22:03] Safety we've got a Dispatch Center um not a lot of people um operate their own dispatch services and so our police and [3:22:10] fire dispatch operates for Adina and rid field which is an important um important [3:22:16] nuance wants to bring up too um and reill does pay us for those Services um [3:22:23] this building where we're at right now the training facility uh we've got one full-time employee here um and then [3:22:29] we've got that new Tactical training building soon being constructed in constructed and coming online and that [3:22:35] will require no additional staff uh Municipal liquor uh there are other uh [3:22:41] cities in the state that offer Municipal liquor uh we've got nine full-time employees dedicated to that um some of [3:22:47] our more comparable cities that we're looking at um we'll get to those numbers later too but um that's just what we've [3:22:54] got right now on the previous slide it says 10 for Liquor on the fourth table is that [3:23:02] almost just like a difference of maybe like what staff versus not staff [3:23:07] that we actually just Hy position okay timing data yeah have not [3:23:16] carried over no it's okay so nine is the the current current [3:23:26] yeah sorry about that um as far as the golf course and the golf dome goes we've [3:23:31] got 12 employees dedicated to that service again very unique um RAR Arena [3:23:37] RAR Dome and field um we've got seven in a half employees dedicated um with a [3:23:43] half is that half being a full-time that's splitting their time between Centennial Lakes Park and um and rmar [3:23:51] Arena doen field but that position has not yet been hired but we did want to include it because it is budgeted for 25 [3:23:59] um our assessing division we've got seven people dedicated to assessing Centennial Lakes Park we've got five and [3:24:05] a half people that spend their time predominantly over there um and again that half is a fulltime that's splitting [3:24:11] between the arena but has not yet been hired um as far as uh Edinburgh and the [3:24:17] Aquatic Center goes they've got seven employees dedicated between them them they share those Staffing for facilities [3:24:23] and services um our Public Health division we've got seven people dedicated to that service and um Adina [3:24:31] does contract with Bloomington for providing foundational Public Health responsibilities that go a little bit [3:24:36] more above and beyond um what we're able to provide um here in a Dina that focuses more on like Wick uh T um strong [3:24:45] foundations and opioids with Canabis um but again that follows along into that [3:24:51] um Public Health Board requirement that we see um only Bloomington and Richfield [3:24:58] and um uh who was our other one Bloomington Richfield [3:25:04] and um sorry um and then the last two we've got one [3:25:11] full-time employee dedicated to our art center as well as one full-time employee dedicated to our senior center [3:25:16] um and now in the next page we'll move on to those comparison cities and our services and how they um compare as far [3:25:24] as full-time Staffing goes um you can see I've got my sources listed too if [3:25:30] you have any questions about those let please stop me at any time let me know but I'm just going to get into the breakdowns here um so the most recent [3:25:39] populations that I was able to verify was 2023 and that was taken from everyone's ACT first which I viewed as a [3:25:46] verifiable source um nothing was available to the census otherwise that would have been my um only other source [3:25:52] that I would have thought would have been better I guess than our actur but [3:25:57] um um 2023 population is used there um then for that reason and I've got um [3:26:04] just two years for full times in 23 and 24 and um I wasn't able to use 25 [3:26:12] full-time um employees for everybody because they weren't all able to verify [3:26:17] um what those would be at for me at that point so I decided to move forward with 2024 and 23 um but basically all I'm [3:26:25] doing here is I'm taking what our total full-time employees are our headcounts [3:26:31] versus all of those other cities so Eden Prairie St Louis Park Min tanka Maple Grove Plymouth and Burnsville um and [3:26:38] then the first service that I'm talking about again is that ambulance the fire EMS um services [3:26:46] so again we've got 36 Personnel dedicated solely to Fire and AMS services and transport um but that total [3:26:53] number is 71 full-timers that um operate across all of our fire divisions um and [3:27:00] the important thing here on um this uh on this service is that Eden Prairie St [3:27:06] Louis Park Plymouth minona and Maple Grove all have fire departments but do not offer EMS services such as ambulance [3:27:13] or transport um these fire departments have have a combination of full-time and part-time firefighters and typically [3:27:19] focus on Building Inspections Emergency Management operations and Fire Prevention Burnsville like as I [3:27:26] mentioned earlier is our um one comparable here in this chart that um [3:27:32] operates closely more closely with our fire department and offers that fire and ambulance services [3:27:39] ands um as for 911 dispatch again ad Dina has 11 full-time employees [3:27:46] dedicated to this service um you can see our two comparables that we have um that [3:27:53] do offer a dispatch service within their communities is Eden Prairie um they have [3:27:59] 13 dedicated to this service and St Louis Park has nine dedicated to this service again I just want to point out [3:28:05] that Adina is servicing our community in Adina as well as city of Richfield and [3:28:11] their um residents for that programming as well um [3:28:17] then I'll move on to our Public Health um Division and any comparable services that we have across those cities that [3:28:23] we've identified and the only one that came close um upon my research was minona and that is because they have an [3:28:30] environmental health division but that's focusing more on just the food and the lodging pieces that go into all of the [3:28:36] inspections to make sure that um our operations or their operations are um [3:28:42] you know moving along in the community as they would expect them to to make maintain that quality of life and [3:28:47] standard and services that they're looking at however I wanted to give a [3:28:52] deeper dive on if that is really s similar or comparable to our Public Health Board that we have here in ad [3:28:59] Dina and so after chatting with Jeff Brown while minona has some similarities [3:29:04] to ad Dina in the realm of Environmental Health Services it's not a comparable service because it's not a recognized [3:29:11] Community Health Board and so excuse me sorry um it doesn't come with um the [3:29:19] same Authority and responsibility and power that um we have here in Adina or [3:29:25] in Bloomington and Richfield because um minona is not seen as a recognized Public Health [3:29:33] Board I confirm for sake of time you want to maybe just give the how the sections [3:29:40] work and they can go through a little bit more of the detail on their own okay sorry yeah um so so otherwise I mean the [3:29:47] sections are kind of just playing out in the rest of this um information as I've [3:29:53] kind of been going through it I've just been trying to provide as much context I can below all of those numbers to try to [3:29:59] better get to that point that we made earlier that there's a lot of nuances between all of these different cities [3:30:05] and services that we're providing um so I was just trying to get better at you know what would be more like apples to [3:30:11] apples or as close to Apples to Apples as we could get um if I go to [3:30:16] um page five well page five as far as my hand out goes um we get to um some [3:30:24] comparables comparison cities and those again more unique services that we have [3:30:30] and looking and we're looking more closely at Burnsville and AD Dina um but [3:30:35] all we're doing in these um graphs is we're just um looking at all of the more [3:30:41] unique services that we offer in a DA and we're subtracting that total [3:30:46] full-time employee head count number from the total to better understand okay [3:30:52] if we didn't offer any of these Services if we were trying to get closer to um the services that Burnsville or Eden [3:31:00] Prairie is offering this is our full-time headcount number that we would be at and then the same thing is going [3:31:06] when we look below under our comparison cities in that column we're just looking [3:31:11] at okay what unique services do they offer that we don't offer so then we can [3:31:16] subtract those out from their full-time um total employees count as well so that [3:31:22] again we can get to a better um Apples to Apples comparison one question um the 3.5 [3:31:30] full-time employees for the Eden Aquatic Center it's only open 10 weeks [3:31:37] right correct 10 12 weeks um so the same staff that works at Edinburgh Park also [3:31:43] manages the Aquatic Center so what we're trying to do is um in this scenario is kind of an allocation of who works where [3:31:50] for about that much time so if you combine them together there's still the same number of Staff it's how they split [3:31:55] the year and what gets build back to the Aquatic Center so we're building back to [3:32:00] the Aquatic Center 3.5 fulltime sta employes correct in [3:32:07] addition to the seasonal staff that also is highed cu there's seven total so they're just dividing it in half right [3:32:13] it's just I'm trying to wrap my head around you know 10 weeks being open oh [3:32:19] like having 3.5 full-time employees really too [3:32:25] bad one of the other lenses might be if we didn't have the Aquatic Center how [3:32:31] many staff would we have that might get kind of at that comparable of like this [3:32:37] is the additional that we have to pay for because of the Aquatic Center there's also a lot of hiring of staff [3:32:43] and ordering stuff that happens outside of the 10 we that it's open and that's so the the theory there [3:32:50] is they each manage a peak so Ando typically isier fall winter spring [3:32:57] Aquatic Center spring summer fall and they offset their busy Times by managing [3:33:03] these so then you are correct there is all the hiring that happens pre-season [3:33:08] um so it's the same people so you think about it's Patty Josh um and Alysa um [3:33:14] you know kind of those three and then made is half and half because he's our CPO himself um they're all I [3:33:21] think the question you're getting is if we do not have an aquatic center then the question remain is how many people would we need at Edinburgh Park if we [3:33:28] didn't have Edinburgh Park how many people would we need to run an aquatic Etc so but what this just says it's the [3:33:34] same people running two operations and they're [3:33:39] allocating so there's also a little bit of a Nuance on how other communities do it um as [3:33:46] well is they may not be building any time back to some of those functions and they're keeping it all in a different [3:33:51] scenario so that's why it's a little bit hard to distinguish between St Louis Park's philosophical approach Ora's [3:33:59] philosophical would that be comparable Ison a big Art Center as well not run by [3:34:04] the city of and that is that's an important thank you Caroline I forgot to mention that so [3:34:11] if anything is contracted out um as far as city services go so if someone is [3:34:17] operating a senior center but they're not specifically paying for those City staff to run it they're on someone [3:34:22] else's payroll and we're just um supporting them through partnership or um different marketing whatever it is if [3:34:29] it's not directly City staff on that payroll we're not including it as a comparable service because otherwise [3:34:36] this would be pretty unwieldly but in the case of the Min art [3:34:41] center it's not even physically located within the city boundaries and the city doesn't cont [3:34:48] you're trying to provide a comparison for the emails and phone calls that say [3:34:55] my goodness you have all these people and if I look at this city they have so [3:35:01] many fewer people you're trying to say on the surface yeah that's what it looks [3:35:07] like but there's all these services that they VI are don't provide and we sta [3:35:13] those um so if we move on to um the word year [3:35:20] tables um that speak to a dino full-time Staffing increase drivers [3:35:26] um um this is talking more to Carolyn what you had talked about earlier um as [3:35:31] far as like looking through time and understanding where the changes in um who's being brought on to the [3:35:38] organization in total or who's moving around within the organization after uh [3:35:43] whatever period of time um um and so basically all I've done is I've Wroten it down by year the second column is the [3:35:50] title of the position that came aboard the city at that time or um if they didn't come aboard if they were [3:35:56] reorganized and moved to a different department or division in a different department um and uh the the full-time [3:36:06] headcount Drive number increase or decrease that would um be associated [3:36:11] with that change and then um the the next part where it talks about um I'm [3:36:18] just looking in 2021 or it says engineering reorganization snow plow worker to public works that's just [3:36:23] giving you a little bit more context as of saying okay I see there's a couple reorgs but that doesn't really tell me [3:36:29] enough on that one um and then the last column is just again that full-time [3:36:35] headcount for Staffing total um for the city and then the italicized uh titles [3:36:42] and the text below all of those um first t uh all of those first rows um is just [3:36:51] speaking a little bit more to the context of um what the need behind um [3:36:57] behind that position coming aboard was um if we were increasing someone from part-time and full-time um if we were um [3:37:05] experiencing more needs for economic development services and so we needed to bring someone off the that um fourth [3:37:12] again if it was a reorganization and we just um wanted to better align ourselves um in that way to um make reports better [3:37:20] and goals better aligned internally um but with that as you can see on the [3:37:29] 2025 table there's um positions that are included that have not yet been hired um [3:37:35] as well as in 2024 specifically with um specifically with Public Safety [3:37:41] um but that is my hand out [3:37:48] questions I think that last page is really good you're taking us from the [3:37:54] 330 and 2021 and telling us how we get to 358 and 2025 little bit of [3:38:08] detail okay Kelly up [3:38:17] have to just use the computer like it wasn't working very [3:38:27] well all right so a couple weeks ago um [3:38:33] I introduced a new law that is coming on the pipe so effect of January 1st um [3:38:39] 2026 Minnesota pave leave program goes into effect and obviously with that what [3:38:45] that does is it provides Family and Medical Leave coverage to Minnesota workers on11 um it provides job protections and [3:38:53] partial wage replacement I'm not going to get into what that partial wage replacement is super complicated [3:38:59] generally speaking um your lower wage earners will have a greater percentage of their wage um when they're off to [3:39:07] leave covered um and then the paid Le program is funded by premium so it's funded by a [3:39:13] payroll tax um the initial rate on that payroll tax is 88% so at a minimum the minimum [3:39:19] requirement for the city is to cover 44% of it and then the employee will cover [3:39:25] the other 44% um I have a question about that part [3:39:32] is it optional what the share is of the city or is it like Statewide it's 50% [3:39:38] employee P so the minimum the city has cover 50% so we have to cover 044 we [3:39:44] could cover more um or we could replace it with um like a leave program that [3:39:51] offers the same or more than what the pay Le program will so we could say oh [3:39:56] we'll offer full 100% pay in lie of participating in this program for 12 [3:40:03] weeks 12 um this slide just shows what leaves are covered so an employee could take 12 [3:40:09] weeks of medical leave they could take an additional well they could take 12 weeks of family leave so if they child [3:40:15] they could then take 8 weeks so a combination of 20 weeks Max [3:40:20] um and then there's various reasons under the family leav so one is bonding one is caring some more caring for your [3:40:27] family member with this serious health condition there's a new safety on component to event active [3:40:35] duty KY can you talk a little louder to the records oh [3:40:42] sure oh I actually took this SL out sorry I'm going skip that one um so in [3:40:47] terms of who is eligible um and this is where we'll have the most impact uh over what we have [3:40:54] today but employees that have earned at least 5.3% of the Statewide average annual [3:40:59] wage which I think is 72,000 is what the base what that basis is or if they' [3:41:05] earned $3,781 they will be eligible to take this [3:41:11] P um one key thing to note here it's not [3:41:16] making that money at the city of via it's if I've worked at you know [3:41:21] McDonald's in January then they come to the city in February if I've made $3,781 I would be eligible you know [3:41:29] during my employment of theity um so with that we have roughly [3:41:35] 275 part-time employees that's going to be a big impact um operational wise so [3:41:41] um having that increase in eligible employees to take paid leave is is definitely an impact and then more [3:41:49] importantly when you think about our operations it's one thing in HR if I have somebody go out and leave and I can [3:41:55] you know I can shift responsibilities um it's different for where we have like shift minimums um [3:42:01] excuse me so Andrew and um Todd if you [3:42:07] have Andrew you us 12 people on a shift and you have two people out there's a I [3:42:12] mean that's an operational impact for sure and just to give you a little context on this we had 30 leaves in 2024 [3:42:20] 40% of those leaves are police in Fire ADD we get so we get concern on [3:42:27] Staffing side um because we have a am Workforce as well so we think all baby Le forecast I'll have more of those [3:42:34] experiences and then for us in the police in particular we have a lot of military that go on Le or active duty [3:42:39] then if you're factoring other leaves absences uh injuries things like that um and then just [3:42:45] it's difficult first so we anticipate this being an impact we think about our authorized SW [3:42:52] strength 64 it's never going to be 64 it's always going to be less than that and you put stress on your staff that [3:42:58] way too so if you're always defaulting the overtime having to fill those gaps that can the for your staff they have [3:43:06] stressful moments or more of that kind of stuff and you're trying to guard against set to is you're trying to find [3:43:11] that balance as you go through your minimum shift work and then just considering this as we think about the [3:43:17] next 5 years and forecasting out where do we need to be for that St it's going to be an [3:43:24] impact we have tell Kelly we have I do an evaluation year where we every [3:43:30] position you know one seat on an ambulance is filled 24 hours a day 365 [3:43:36] days so to fill one position to do an evaluation of the time off people are [3:43:43] using parental leave injury all all of the benefited time off and [3:43:48] that increases every year this year saw our biggest increase so for one position I need to fill 3.67 FTE based on 24 [3:43:57] leave uh this will add additional you know we'll have right now we have three babies in the hopper um so in the the [3:44:05] summertime we'll have three staff when they're gone they're gone for 24 hours at a time you know and so this now [3:44:12] increases our time off that we have to fill with additional staff over time and [3:44:18] that's when we get into these that's why we've seen mandates come be increased um [3:44:23] due to the Staffing relief factor of just not having enough bodies to fill those minimum [3:44:28] positions and there's still a lot of unknowns with this program but the other thing I was thinking about the other day [3:44:34] is you know if I have say I welcome a child in August can I be out for 12 [3:44:40] weeks come back get my knee done for the last eight weeks for a total of 20 weeks and then turn around in January and take [3:44:48] take care of my spouse for a surgery so I look forward to have any [3:44:53] more clarification on this program but I think that's the one other thing too is right now we do have um a paid [3:45:01] parenting leave that a little bit bit that we offer as a city we don't offer any caregiver leave so that is something [3:45:08] that's different and if employees are going to be paying for part of it I I mean I would use it if I am paying for [3:45:14] that benefit right so I think that's something to keep in mind is we might see an uptick of people that are taking [3:45:20] care of Aging parents um or even kids that that will use this leave in a [3:45:25] different way than we have maybe traditionally seen it used right there's an eligibility component so today with [3:45:30] FMLA you have to have been here for a year um before you can take paid you know sort of leave or whatnot but we [3:45:36] maybe enough paid parental but yeah so it'll beate that on the eligibility [3:45:42] requirement there's a threshold period of time in which you to be employed before you're eligible for these no no [3:45:49] that's what I understood that from day one you would go to work as long as you [3:45:56] 3,571 or whatever that's my understanding as it is today yeah I think it was an article in the strip a [3:46:02] few months ago about somebody who had gone to work maybe at a school district and after one week on the job took paid [3:46:08] leave and then took caregiving leave and protected and then left in the school [3:46:13] district and paid out about $4,000 and for the person that worked like two [3:46:19] weeks so best guess this doubles leave impact triples [3:46:26] it I don't know how we can say no one's no one's making guesses yet Le is it making guesses my bigger concern are [3:46:34] with you know those minimum Staffing and you can't just back large impacts to this you know we [3:46:41] have we have a person we just hired the other day that having a baby in two months so um that relief That was [3:46:49] supposed to be coming and you know there's a 6 week training time and then a second they have that now and and it's [3:46:55] great shortterm impact for long-term gain of a good employee and a great family but it's just impacts that we're [3:47:00] all realizing with some of the leaves that that we don't have control of we [3:47:06] see the the youth movement here that's happening too so gen xers didn't take much time off but younger staff like to [3:47:12] take more time off which is a good thing but that's anticipate much more that Happ do you mean that from like a almost [3:47:20] like a gender lens of I mean I'm making some assumptions probably more men um within [3:47:28] the public safety and that wasn't typical histor that more men are [3:47:33] taking and before I mean how has traditionally been funded is through [3:47:39] short-term disability policies which may not have the same eligability for men right so it's just [3:47:47] model a good example of this in 2013 I was hired I had my son in August and I [3:47:53] took one day off of work you because a new employee didn't think I any time that wasn't I could have taken more that [3:47:59] was just a personal decision um the we'll have two parental leaves this [3:48:05] summer where they'll take six and eight weeks off for which is great for still [3:48:10] have PTSD my wife but that's just impact that that's [3:48:16] what I think Todd's referencing is that impact is just larger on a time when that spot so needs to be filled we can [3:48:23] you know we can't uh we can't push off the work it still comes we sub to that seat in a different [3:48:30] way so I just ran the numbers from 23 to 24 we had an increase of about 2,000 [3:48:37] hours of time off that's a full-time employee of just time off based on rental military leave and and other was [3:48:45] about the time long so and I'm making an assumption but I want some [3:48:50] clarification let's say teaching or things like administrative staff right you can [3:48:57] get a temp worker in and help to alleviate that but I'm guessing within [3:49:02] this space there isn't just like a Depot of firefighters that we can call upon to [3:49:09] join us for six day weeks I haven't found them but I'll give me my cell phone will be [3:49:16] here takes me about 8 months to a year to train up one officer but that's a question though so [3:49:23] we probably spent I don't know 10 minutes talking about a [3:49:28] problem somebody must be looking at how do we solve that and so I I don't know [3:49:35] who's doing that I know two people who are have to be involved in sing for it [3:49:41] but we do have to do that so at least we have the ability As Cities to Levy the [3:49:48] money to cover this you you're you will hear more about this uh this spring because school districts don't have the [3:49:54] ability to fund it the same way we do so there's still a lot of legislative discussion going on on [3:50:01] that what do I mean so on the fire side you just went through the numbers and so [3:50:08] at some point we could get a call and we won't have anybody service that call [3:50:16] I think council member Pi here what I think what the presentation is these are [3:50:21] impacts that are outside of our control I mean these these to have staff this is an impact that we'll have so I think [3:50:28] it's you know making sure that you're aware of these impacts that we're looking at because the because when we [3:50:34] have when we look at a budget you you talked about it earlier you have revenue or expenses and they connect to one [3:50:40] another when you look at Staffing we have either Staffing their service you [3:50:45] know so if I don't have the staff I have to cut service so that's what I think is [3:50:51] just helping everyone understand that the these impacts have service impacts because I either have to raise my [3:50:57] sapping levels to offset it or cut my service or option three put it on the [3:51:03] backs of the people and mandate them you know and and that's that's where you're constantly trying to balance this plate [3:51:10] will never be perfect but it's trying to offset the those external factors that [3:51:16] we don't have any control over solution in the example you said 2,000 hours it's almost equivalent to an [3:51:22] FTE one solution we could consider is let's over staff then by one FTE to [3:51:30] allow for that type of flexibility is an example right but that's where I think [3:51:35] the solution making comes in that's exactly what I was going to say a year or two from now I might come back and [3:51:41] say I need to be at 66 we'll do the math we'll make the have and we'll understand what our thresholds need to be we'll [3:51:48] never go get into a place where we can't provide the coordinat service on the police side and also on the fire but [3:51:53] what I do behind the scenes is p the lovers to contract certain other features to make sure that that course service is in place and then we'll come [3:51:59] back L ask one or two to help compens might do less we might do less traffic [3:52:05] for example yeah I'm just saying that I [3:52:12] would like to understand whatever options we think we have so that we can [3:52:17] start planning for those now as well let's not forget that this is I [3:52:24] know we don't have a minimum Staffing level in public works but we have to have power drivers and this could impact [3:52:30] us too so I mean it's not quite as drastic as as policeing fire but it is a [3:52:37] emergency service that has to be done when it needs to be done and for us it's you know we're on more of the [3:52:42] discretionary side right people to recreate for that but I think it's it's also a challenge when you think of [3:52:49] additional programs that are being involved when we have open hours or Staffing hours that are seven days a [3:52:55] week versus less so when you do you know like we have staff that's Sunday through Thursday or Tuesday through Saturday and [3:53:01] somehow that we have to cover seven days a week you know during uh a vacancy or an outage that so that availability hour [3:53:08] gets like kind of the Chiefs had said kind of put stress on the system y so [3:53:13] it's going to manage that stressor speaking of stressors um as we [3:53:20] start to transition away from presentations and moving back toward recommendations [3:53:26] right so let's let's make sure we're thinking about all the stuff so what [3:53:32] else is driving this moment in time for Budget be it revenue or [3:53:37] expense whatever so so far we just started Debt Service payments coming new [3:53:44] fa life cycles to maintenance are all some of the things driving internally right now we just talked about paid [3:53:51] Minnesota paid Le is going to drive that's an externality that's going to start to drive inflation [3:53:58] obviously what else what else do we need to be for externalities I would say um [3:54:05] the Mental Health crisis Y is something that's new um and public security [3:54:11] threats whether it's cyber threats for um new kinds of crime not something else [3:54:18] skap but but there what is um a threat to Public Safety is um always changing [3:54:26] and um it's not necessarily in terms of things that get policed um so like the [3:54:31] new Public Safety person Parks the new supervisor we have to that [3:54:37] Y what else internal or external or driving the [3:54:45] 13% or could make it even bigger [3:54:51] right you mean we thinking about hypothetical or [3:54:56] actual what are we actually worried could be could be part of the the mix over the next couple of years about uh [3:55:06] recession yeah Federal Monday severe weather [3:55:12] events right here diminishment of federal funding count on that one [3:55:25] right I mean you know where block grants come from right how about the demand for [3:55:33] connectivity yeah in RightWay management and fiber installs throughout the city [3:55:38] oh jeez I think labor market [3:55:45] up [3:55:53] there I mean you've been facing the the labor market issue for police um for [3:55:59] some time already diminishment and the commercial property values yeah [3:56:14] I think the school district stuff could end up impacting as to whether it be like you know s officers or other areas [3:56:23] where they're not able to provide service and there's going to be an expectation maybe that's School County Regional I don't know well I school [3:56:30] district is definitely and specifically them asking you to pick up [3:56:36] services what about what about school districts right I think that their their [3:56:42] Cuts could they have less flexib ability and how they go about Revenue than we do [3:56:48] okay I would argue school this high quality public schools are important to [3:56:53] our overall property value system oh yeah sure y yep [3:57:00] yep so it's the direct it's the direct possibility in terms of if you need to [3:57:06] fill gas but also the property values [3:57:13] okay resident expectations yeah I'm sorry residents [3:57:19] expectations and i' add non-negotiable ones like data practices request and [3:57:24] stuff we we have to do [3:57:36] it what was somebody thinking about when they said public security [3:57:42] threats care right [3:57:48] here I'm just wondering if yeah is that is that does that an umbrella for cyber [3:57:54] security issues too yes yeah cyber oh you got that up there okay and like [3:58:00] right what what is there the demand for Public Safety that comes from a new [3:58:14] usual forgive me if you no worries if you can't read the left-handed recovered mus and recovered attorney former [3:58:20] musician thing I'm trying to block letter so you have a chance but it's not so Carol [3:58:26] Carol what you just mentioned was really an increase in criminality yeah [3:58:33] yeah the mayor mentioned recession but I also think just acknowledging with that that some of our services are sort of [3:58:39] inverted with a recession so for instance if people aren't able to you [3:58:44] know afford a premium class they might e looking for a recreational class or if [3:58:50] they lose their job they might eat mental health services so sometimes our service demand actually goes the [3:58:56] opposite way even though the money is technically getting [3:59:02] lower is increased criminality maybe it doesn't matter but is increased criminality or changes in criminality is [3:59:08] that an internality or an externality exter [3:59:14] I was reading in the um I think it was the times yesterday I don't know [3:59:20] um changes in like New York um crime [3:59:25] away from property crime and um more toward um physical [3:59:39] violence how much are we affected by um increased code so like you [3:59:45] know I'm thinking you know 50 years ago to build a house was very different from what it is now but as as there's more [3:59:53] are we seeing increased um uh code requirements that then we have to administer kind of unfunded mandate kind [4:00:00] of thing I don't know if that's thing or not well it's largely the same people [4:00:06] right that are that are that we have that are implementing code stuff today okay so we're not seeing increased need [4:00:14] staing for that no most of the most of the code enforcement specifically [4:00:20] building fire code is offset by the permit so the costs go up to put in some [4:00:28] of these pieces which offset so that's almost a Net Zero from the division [4:00:34] there's no doubt it's increased in complexity and number correct and conflict you know [4:00:40] between uh resident contractor you know the different parties [4:00:47] involved but on code as well and I guess this would be internal when we don't [4:00:53] follow code and I'm still trying to figure this out but um the costs that are involved in kind [4:01:04] of grappling with that I think um in the time and all of that I [4:01:13] you know is something that is drietal I think to the city to [4:01:20] you know maybe even the developer but just um and this is something that I've been wrestling with before I got on [4:01:28] councel and then as I've been on Council and I I do not [4:01:33] understand like why Code Compliance sort of fluctuates and we get projects coming [4:01:40] that are not that are we're encouraged to vote on support and then you know down the [4:01:48] road in one situation we tried to rewrite um an ordinance for the pcd1 [4:01:56] district and spent a lot of time and energy on that and I'm glad it didn't move forward because I think it would [4:02:02] have been even more problematic but so what you know just thinking about process and where [4:02:08] we I mean anytime you have a variation of right um that's why we standard right [4:02:14] anytime you have a variation there's a cost associated with it and what's what's okay and what's not okay I think [4:02:21] internalities um would be um staff Recruitment and Retention um and the [4:02:27] changes and um how we that's something that is internal to our [4:02:34] operations that drives the need to keep who you are as a as an employer [4:02:41] yeah uhuh I don't I think we've heard from the doj on the Grand View [4:02:48] bridge probably not it's [4:02:54] all I thinking that in the one category you're talking about uh labor markets [4:03:00] what you're really talking about there I think the overarching issue is inflation [4:03:07] yeah and it's potential impact on our borrowing rates and everything else you know so anyway um I also think uh uh [4:03:18] what from a public health standpoint we could have another pandemic amen was [4:03:23] five years ago it was five years ago and you know um what that was about 10 years [4:03:29] after we had the first wave of everybody was terrified about SARS and the pandemic oh right and it didn't come to [4:03:36] FR and there was and then there was Ms about 5 years later now we're about 5 years out of here and what's happening [4:03:42] with the aan flu and and right um I don't want to be that [4:03:50] person I think on that same note though is like shortages of product um we see [4:03:56] especially in like you know fire trucks the amount of time that it's taking to get specialized equipment being longer [4:04:03] and longer when if something does break how long it takes us to actually get a replacement plow or whatever I mean that [4:04:09] supply chain so Supply chains in general and then there's some specialized [4:04:16] ones that honest to God if you don't Andrew do you have to how how far in [4:04:22] advance you have to order a truck two years three years three years three [4:04:28] years right what [4:04:34] else add the continu the continued March towards uh Cloud uh subscription uh [4:04:40] technology subscriptions and cloud computing typically not not a money saver for for the customer Y no it just [4:04:48] writes it part so they can have more right um nice part of that too [4:05:03] right AI when we talk about energy let's talk about how much energy AI uses um [4:05:10] Emergency Management we don't know there's going to be another public C what would you call civil arrest Cil [4:05:30] arrest P here yeah that's of own piece of [4:05:37] inflation [4:05:47] a lot of externalities well so so so seriously of these yes they're externalities but [4:05:55] which of these do we have some level of influence over influence or [4:06:01] control are there any that we have in terms of how they impact us [4:06:07] right resident expectations resident expectations we can influence those [4:06:13] right influence I can't change [4:06:18] inflence yep I mean as far as public security threats and civil unrest and Emergency Management like the more we [4:06:24] prepare prepare and work on the prevention of those things the cheaper [4:06:30] it'll be to actually deal with them when they get here yep that's here too right [4:06:35] yeah and public security when we talk about cyber [4:06:41] here well that's that's s the core of my thoughts are everything [4:06:47] preparation versus enforcement y anything else that we have influence [4:06:53] over influence over demand for connectivity we can slow that down if we need to [4:07:00] yeah demand for connectivity thank you thank [4:07:06] you that down we want to slow that down no we don't want to slow it down but we [4:07:13] could influence if we needed to yep where else do we have influence or control or can at least prep the hell [4:07:21] out of it excuse me I think labor markets um that's where I keep asking you know the cost of of losing staff is [4:07:29] so high so labor retention a little bit of money to maybe keep people and not have to be trained [4:07:37] and tyline programs right so like the cadet programs ways that we're developing Pathways that might be a [4:07:42] little non-traditional S I think you need to put prepare for Minnesota too right on the top that [4:07:49] we're trying to [4:07:58] it what else Sarah I don't know where this goes but um but binding [4:08:04] arbitration um we have a number of employees that have the ability to [4:08:11] achieve wage increases through arbitration process which is sort of outside of our ability to say yes or no [4:08:18] to but it has but part of the labor contracts but it ends up having a a cascading effect on on employees other [4:08:27] employees in police inquire who aren't part part of a bargaining unit and also a non-bargaining unit employees [4:08:33] throughout the [4:08:39] organization which sort of goes in the same category as labor markets and recruitment vention right how are you as [4:08:45] an employer so there's you can influence that [4:08:54] right forgive me I lose my ability to spell in front of people after a while too [4:09:00] um I think one thing that's not up there that is an externality is the some of [4:09:05] the affordable housing or and maybe that's part of recession but there are people out there community members in [4:09:11] their community that are struggling to to stay in our [4:09:17] community is that external is that external or internal or external but I think it's [4:09:24] just an external reality you need to be aware of and cost cost to living [4:09:42] yeah all right kids so you have from this from this [4:09:49] vantage point right you have the most control over [4:09:57] facility culture and how you manage as an employer and how much you try to [4:10:05] improve the rest the Ence is all about preparation and planning right [4:10:14] yeah no I don't think res expectations about [4:10:19] planning it's it's about um just setting if you want this it's going to be [4:10:26] expensive will come and say we have to do this we have to this do this and then why are taxes in the next so [4:10:35] that's that's something we can man [4:10:46] um y the response time [4:10:52] yep all right so back on the internalities when [4:10:58] Scott started out right off the bat he talked about Debt Service Capital Improvements on operating budget we [4:11:04] don't have do we have Capital Improvements on there there something we can control the extent to which we do [4:11:10] Capital Improvements yeah well facil life cycle we've got that's different [4:11:15] that's a maintenance that's kind of taking care of what you own M what you what you decide to [4:11:21] build and when you decide to build it something we got control over yep and [4:11:26] then uh the budget itself yep that's an internality is what we spent all our [4:11:33] time talking about today all right so let's take a quick [4:11:40] break after lunch you need just s of after an hour take a Qui break come back in about 10 minutes and let's start [4:11:46] going through those recommendations sound like plan okay all right so now let's uh let's [4:11:55] just start going through one by one um and I think in the process of that we [4:12:00] will come to a better St understanding of what our individual goals are and [4:12:06] what our Collective goals are um and rather than spend time focus on that if we use um the individual web [4:12:13] commendations as our basis for that we'll get to the same place and it'll feel more productive for you sound [4:12:19] good chocolate cathine water all [4:12:25] good all right [4:12:31] so Scott's recommendations credit card fees [4:12:37] potential 300K service fees potential 50k franchise fees is UN unmeasured in [4:12:45] the document but you've already said you want to pursue that line of [4:12:51] discussion stabilization funds just shy of 600 AD sales and naming also [4:12:58] unmeasured measured so far just sh a million expense um [4:13:05] recommendations shifts in capital 855 shifts and Equipment half a m Mill [4:13:12] and over overlay just under 100 um Human Services Task Force items [4:13:19] about 170 uh appreciation event 8K um pubs and other potential [4:13:26] unmeasured but here we're sitting at uh 1.6 so together we're sitting at about [4:13:33] 1.6 measured there's a number of things in here that aren't measured and that's how we get up to the to the estimated [4:13:39] 400 right 4 million again you've all already said said you want to you want [4:13:44] to pursue franchise fees discussion other things that have come up so far [4:13:50] that we've talked about as other ideas or other potential right the Tiff stuff you certify our [4:13:57] clothes not now spend some maybe [4:14:03] right keep pursuing local option sales tax options and take a closer look at Labor [4:14:13] yeah what am I missing that we in terms of ideas on the table so far [4:14:20] I think I'm just not maybe I'm just not tracking [4:14:25] um you went through the recommendations and I'm trying to add up [4:14:32] the $4 million and like I can't do that that's that's why I said there are there things [4:14:38] that were unmeasured but if you say to me [4:14:44] you have the direction you need to go after 4 million [4:14:51] then I can go grab an oldfashioned on my way to the [4:14:56] fir y um and then on this side we talked [4:15:01] about some things that um are in addition to what [4:15:07] you got on recommendation you went through the tip yep right give Direction [4:15:13] on those as additive towards the 4 million because I assume you haven't included that no right so am I am I [4:15:21] friending that right you are and and it's getting to the question of you may be you may be ready James to [4:15:28] say yes pursue all of it don't know if the rest of your compatriots are so [4:15:33] that's that's where we're headed as the question of yeah I'm just trying to clarify the question for all of us y [4:15:41] yeah yeah I'm concerned because um one of the things that is listed is the 170 [4:15:51] of Human Service funding we never really talked about and um I don't want people [4:15:59] us wrapping this up and the message is oh Council said 50,000 to the ad resource center [4:16:08] cut money to Corin um help at your door and [4:16:14] um y so you guys are jumping ahead of me so we're going to talk about that [4:16:21] yeah okay why why is she jumping ahead of you yeah because that's that's [4:16:27] $170,000 that's built into that $4.6 million you're jumping ahead of me saying that it's a concern that we [4:16:32] haven't talked about it and I'm saying that's what we're about to do is go through these one I thought you were trying to help James get to the 4.6 [4:16:38] million she did she did yeah we got to that all right yeah so the the [4:16:44] 170 that m r is talking about is part of the 4 million yeah it is and so she's [4:16:51] got a concern on that that goes on the board yeah okay that's um one of the [4:16:57] things that was and I don't know I've read so many different things was in there was about the number of events [4:17:03] that we have and um we did 15 more than one a month last year and that plus um [4:17:11] what I would call the small area planning um cost we went through um in [4:17:17] the cost presentations and those the um events aren't expensive but they are [4:17:24] disruptive um and um and it's the same with the small area planning that those [4:17:31] are expensive and they're disruptive um there's a lot of Staff time and and [4:17:36] focus and and everything those are two things that I didn't see in the presentation but I think I saw that like [4:17:44] scaling back on events is what what well the one thing that was in there was scaling back on board and commission [4:17:50] appreciation event no but that was just one events I'm talking like we had a a um electric car um EV that took time [4:18:00] staff time and preparation and Interruption of other things that could [4:18:06] and we we have increased the number of those kind of things a lot over the years and even though it's maybe not [4:18:12] direct cost I think there's indirect cost and that's something I'd like to have a discussion about um you know [4:18:19] again that's the community expectation stuff the resident expectations um but I [4:18:26] I think that's good other ideas is a good spot because like you're coming up with new stuff you're adding formul but [4:18:32] wasn't that in I I thought I the work plan we were going through the boards and commission work plan we shared a [4:18:39] staff concern and I'm I'm probably the loudest of the [4:18:45] because we do the marketing for you and what we've observed is we have events now so frequently they're actually [4:18:51] competing with each other yes and so we have we haven't heard as much from [4:18:56] residents that we can't go to all of these things but we know by where they're showing up they're not attending [4:19:03] all of the things a DI there's that and there is a lot of the our staff time is [4:19:10] an indirect cost but the marketing cost is is not the advertising cost [4:19:15] posters okay social media ads to get people to show up at these events yeah [4:19:21] so um I guess I couldn't remember where it read that but I share your concern I'm pretty sure it was that thank you so [4:19:27] s and I'm sorry just to catch up what are we talking about in terms of events I'm not tracking what we had an electric [4:19:32] car showcase oh okay so we had to get the electrics the staff had to you know [4:19:38] put things together had to advertise for it and stuff and that takes a tremendous amount of of energy to have 20 people [4:19:45] who are already environmentalists come look at electric all right all right Sarah yes [4:19:53] sir so the comment from member rer was [4:19:59] hsf is this your I'm concern I I just didn't see that one yep [4:20:06] so so new ideas on the left new ideas on the left and actually I was going to go [4:20:11] just go through the recommendations one by one and see where we are on those that's fine [4:20:17] so um we didn't you didn't put down the structural analysis anywhere did you yep [4:20:23] sure did [4:20:31] D all right it looks like we have almost $12 million that is the account balance [4:20:39] in the Southdale 2 tip District and if I'm reading that correctly that [4:20:46] could be money that we use to you know I know it's limited what we can use it for [4:20:54] um but we could use that for the retaining wall perhaps there's other um [4:21:02] deferred maintenance I don't know if you can't so so a couple so that's not [4:21:08] that's not a balance what can you use it can we use it for you can use it something adjacent to the site that it [4:21:14] was gathered for or you can use it for affordable housing only affordable housing is Affordable use for thatp [4:21:20] under the law so like with Mason green we were able to put the roundabout there because it's adjacent to it but then [4:21:27] there's a line where that stop because that was where the law said you can't go any further than that but with the tip [4:21:33] dollars you could that is portable so we could use that to pay for affordable housing in the Southdale area and the [4:21:39] tip two uh the Southdale 2 tip is under okay I thought it was possible we might [4:21:45] be able to do it forther retaining depends on where the location [4:21:51] of it is I'm just wondering if there's any other items that are you know [4:21:59] possible things that we could use that money for so we've already through all [4:22:05] of the costs we've already said that that one of the strategies we're going to pursue is looking at what can be [4:22:11] spent and where it can be spent we can't we can't do line by line today right so that's one of the [4:22:18] options that that you've already said you wanted to you're looking for okay what about uh [4:22:26] I thought we were going to have a little conversation about Edinburgh that's a great one to talk about yeah why isn't [4:22:32] that on the other ideas list of the sale or the closure of Edinburgh because you mentioned it [4:22:38] before as we're going to talk about Ed and I have no idea what you're talking about okay no I didn't ask you that I was just [4:22:44] saying rhetorically [4:22:55] why and we have um do we have derk's issue up there do I have what derk's [4:23:02] issue of sustainable funding source for maintaining what we own is that up [4:23:09] there that's not a source of moneyer does better to call D isue [4:23:20] though so so before we keep adding more let's let's get these out of the way [4:23:26] first please credit card fees yes thank you [4:23:31] yes yes we're unanimous on that yes all right service [4:23:38] fees oh yeah yes yes yes yes [4:23:43] yes franchise Fe we already said yes I said with research we pursue it [4:23:51] says pursue yeah okay can we clarify quick Sarah what the number is on that [4:23:56] when you say franchise fees we suggested a million I know Kate talked about I didn't see a number in Theo our [4:24:04] proposal two years ago was another million this year okay to me that's a that's a [4:24:11] conditional that's a y but I I still want to compare that to whether it's better to have uh Street reconstruction [4:24:19] occur under uh general fund so it's a property tax deduction or or whether [4:24:25] it's better to have it here and Chad and I were having a sidebar he said we'll get you that information so yeah yep so [4:24:31] that's a that's a contingent that's the pursuit y spending down the rest of the [4:24:37] stabilization fund just shy of six could could we get some history yeah cuz I [4:24:43] thought that was a long-term thing but I guess it's just from Co I thought it was I thought it was it started before I met [4:24:49] you which was 17 it did we were at one point it [4:24:55] was the 17 it was at one point it was uh three four five six about 6 million or [4:25:02] so six seven and then we used a million of it um [4:25:08] sorry I take it back I was adding too much numbers it was uh $3.5 million to [4:25:14] begin with and that where it come from that came from your budget surplus at one time back in I don't know what year [4:25:21] it is but the previous Council said let's instead of flushing it to construction fund let's set it aside as [4:25:28] budget stabilization and so since then there's been that $3.5 million out there uh in [4:25:35] reserves and then we tapped into 2 million of it for Budget stabilization [4:25:40] in 2024's budget divide down the levy and then a million of it is also being used in the 25 budget to buy down the [4:25:47] levy and th now remains $ 5.89 so we've never added anything more and that was like 2015 2016 [4:25:55] somewhere there when you get your Surplus you could have a conversation about do you [4:26:01] want to put more back in or do you want to do Lis Park whatever that looks like is a a good conversation but currently [4:26:07] the policy stands the budget surplus goes through the construction fund unless that policy has changed by [4:26:18] coun so is that what you need yes that's very helpful thank you yeah well it [4:26:24] doesn't help us decide whether or not to include that as a to throw it at the [4:26:29] reduction of the general fund Levy right my question was just what is it yeah [4:26:34] yeah I mean I was going to start with my position I guess is it feels like a rainy day fund in way [4:26:42] that we can use um it feels like a rainy day um so [4:26:49] in some ways like like my instinct is this could really help and at the same [4:26:55] time we're eliminating it and we have all these other externalities right now [4:27:01] feels uncomfortable when we think about what is happening at a federal level where we we also just don't know and I'm [4:27:09] on the fence on this one I could probably go either way but it it doesn't feel like as much of a slam dunk as [4:27:14] credit card fees right so I'm thinking if we can take some of [4:27:20] that money to do the mayor's long-term um structural analysis I think it's [4:27:27] budget related it's a one it's a one-time use that's what the budget stabilization is for let's figure out um [4:27:36] who we are what we're doing um and is it efficient in our structure and then keep [4:27:41] the rest is that what you're saying well I I don't know about the rest yeah that [4:27:46] was my idea yeah I think that's a really good idea because missing from all of this is Staffing and we were talking [4:27:54] about that and so that would get add that but so all right so we are now [4:28:02] doing well we kind of do staff [4:28:07] recommended part of the 4 million is this $500,000 right we were saying now we're not [4:28:14] comfortable with that which okay we're going to move that and then we just spit [4:28:19] some of it on this Workforce plan that we don't need to hit this first right [4:28:27] B so if we're going to do that then I think the fiscal way to do it fiscally [4:28:35] responsible way to do it is to say you know maybe we save some of it for the [4:28:40] externalities whatever the Delta is has to come out of some other [4:28:46] idea but whatever we do has to equal 589 [4:28:51] or whatever cuz we're trying to get to $4 million in savings so how much does [4:28:58] it cost to cut events I put that on the table that's great and so that's my offer is to uh spend some of the budget [4:29:07] stabilization do to the structural analysis and then use the offsetting thing to cut the events budget by that [4:29:14] much if that's possible that's my I think that that is a fine frame if [4:29:21] that's what we're going to do I would say the same thing about [4:29:30] hsf that's 170 m right I love every organization in fact my wife is on the [4:29:37] board of one of them and so if we pull that out or we say we're going to do it then we got to [4:29:44] have something over the here to cover that cost and that's just the way I am [4:29:51] thinking about it so let's take let's keep on this aside for just a second [4:29:57] so the one thing that I've heard as clear as day not [4:30:04] 133% right 17% we were told well I okay so [4:30:10] not 17 also job dropping yeah well not 13 either or not 13 [4:30:17] either i' I've heard in VAR from various meetings and from various reports 3 [4:30:23] million 5 million 5% 5 million 7 [4:30:28] million right [4:30:34] um are we trying to get to a percentage are we trying to get um as far as we can [4:30:41] right now are we trying to get 4 million um and [4:30:46] then or you know as far as we can get now and then longer term that sort of [4:30:52] two tier that that James has been talking about tell me what we're actually tell [4:30:58] me what we're trying to do are we trying to get as far as we can without anybody losing a job or cutting services what I [4:31:04] don't like I don't think we should do that and so I I'm just offering that [4:31:13] the staff recommended $4 million in savings that's what is up on the board [4:31:22] MH and staff is comptable that's an answer [4:31:28] with I think we should start with that and if there are things on that list [4:31:33] only that we're uncomfortable with we should talk about okay yeah I yeah and [4:31:40] stay away from the yeah and that's a fair response if there [4:31:45] are additional things that are savings yeah or additional Revenue sources that [4:31:51] we come up with we can put that into the mix as well yes okay so to S way what [4:31:59] James and Carolyn said I agree let's identify I was thinking let's identify [4:32:04] the things that we think are kind of a slam dunk part of that form mil like credit card [4:32:09] fees and put everything else in the working lot we uncomfortable with then go back and visit those yeah okay let's [4:32:18] do that Julie where are you sitting in all of this uh I I agree with what the mayor [4:32:26] just said I think there's logic to that I also think that we are being asked to [4:32:32] make up down decisions on things that we don't have enough information about no [4:32:39] that's fair you're not being asked to make up down decisions right now sometimes it's like oh well this was the [4:32:44] direction from Council and I kind of be like you know so yeah there's that I um [4:32:50] did submit an email that had ideas about reducing the budget and I know I guess [4:32:58] we're going to talk about what council is thinking at a later date yeah that's [4:33:03] a frustration um so Julie one way you could think [4:33:10] about this is the way James I think is that these are the staff's ideas right which of these are we going to buy into [4:33:17] yeah 100% and which ones are we going to put in the parking lot and then come back and talk about them see if we can [4:33:23] you know resolve any of those issues to me those might sit in the parking lot so we get into those actual budget [4:33:29] discussions and then we say well if we brought in those nonprofit funding uh [4:33:34] monies 17,000 how does that affect the budget you know when we get down further [4:33:40] Downstream but I think James characterized it well let's let's figure out what we agree with the staff l i [4:33:46] don't agree with them one that that's Scott you should step in but that's what staff is asking here are he remember at [4:33:52] the beginning he said not even initial preliminary recommendations do you buy into these Arles the kinds of things we [4:33:59] should be doing or not because time's a wasting and and there are a number of [4:34:05] steps that still have to happen so I'll just give my way of example better to follow Kate and say I'm kind of kind of on the fence [4:34:12] about the uh the budget stabilization Reserve but I'm leaning more towards [4:34:18] keeping it as there in our back pocket or Hip Pocket to see what happens and [4:34:23] with the economy and everything else so I put that in the parking lot and then we could come back and Vis water because [4:34:30] there's some uncertainty there but when you get down to whether we not the next one of the line whether or not we should [4:34:35] spend uh or you know defer some equipment purchases and save 500,000 bucks to me that's okay that makes [4:34:44] sense so I say keep going yeah okay I do [4:34:49] think when we talk about spending um balances from Tiff districts we need to look at all of the Tiff districts that [4:34:55] have balances because you know Grand View 2 does as well and maybe that could [4:35:00] be what we use for the Grand View parking ramp Ada access route trying to [4:35:06] get my mind around what is feasible but I think anytime we could use available [4:35:14] balances in the Tiff accounts we should do that so can we maybe just add a note [4:35:21] on the Tiff Bend of broaden yeah thank you Kate thank [4:35:28] you all right so so ad sales yes ad [4:35:33] sales yes yes yes but like at sales where at the [4:35:39] ring so you could put them back in into some of the Publications we've had them in in the past we've never had one in [4:35:46] addition but we could probably sell one on the back page um we've done [4:35:51] environmental ads like the bathroom ads at the facilities you could look at doing stuff like that again okay and is [4:35:58] this like a and I know we would have to start selling in above the market and all [4:36:04] those components but is this a 50,000 or 500,000 or like what's the potential J [4:36:12] range do you manage we sell about $100,000 in Dasher board Arenas at [4:36:17] Dasher board ads at RAR Arena today so that's that's a traditional [4:36:23] environmental advertising sort of thing when we did bathroom ads um we didn't [4:36:30] bring in $100,000 a year we brought in between 10 and $15,000 a year and we [4:36:36] didn't have them at all of our facilities we had them at do you remember Perry I think the golf course [4:36:41] Senior Center and Cent I don't recall but defer to you and [4:36:49] Thea Center in the summer months on yeah and one of the reasons we got away from them is because of the person we can't [4:36:54] dictate we can't decline anyone correct um what they were saying of the actual [4:37:00] ad and some of them did not fit with the philosophy of that stand well let's just [4:37:07] take the total one could advertise in all of our facilities right we cannot by [4:37:12] LW turn them down because we're a public entity tattoo shop [4:37:23] advertisements there's that balance it also conflicts just with your your [4:37:28] Aesthetics and your brand James is starting his own list [4:37:36] over so we can come back and get more flush off that more and come back with some options and what [4:37:44] we I I'm not as like slam dunk about it [4:37:58] but angry James can you get a darker pen it's hard to [4:38:05] read can you do that I can absolutely can do on the Y taking a [4:38:12] picture of this so I can oh let me take one please we should also have energy costs on there I mean there's so many [4:38:18] things that are not so we got guys we got to stay [4:38:25] focused so what we're going to do now is on the board we want to go through this [4:38:32] yes right so we're going to list everything over there that we've said yes to with a dollar amount if we don't [4:38:39] if it's an estimate fine and then we'll have a tally over here [4:38:45] that has that number we're going to end up with a Delta and that [4:38:52] Delta is going to be stuff over here or stuff member rer [4:38:58] is email or anybody any ideas that people have will go [4:39:05] here so before anybody says anything else other than answering this question [4:39:12] we had credit credit card fees what else service [4:39:19] fees franch fees franchise fees yep sales F add [4:39:26] sales naming we just said we're cool with that that wases didn't talk [4:39:33] about parking okay ad sales was was what was the estimate for that yeah we didn't [4:39:39] put a number on it but we going to everybody breath all right everybody [4:39:48] 30,000 30,000 okay and the thing to keep in mind we like we don't know what any [4:39:54] of this stuff actually even it's all an estimate the reason we started early is [4:40:01] so we can get the list and have the staff go out and vet some of this stuff [4:40:06] so we're not going to have the level of detail for each one of these keep going [4:40:12] all right so we got Sals was 30 and was that [4:40:18] it naming rights is its own thing naming rights are we okay with that or not uh I [4:40:24] want to know more but yeah I mean all of this all of this so this is I want at [4:40:32] least an example like are we talking about like Fred Richards and like is [4:40:39] this under sou rink AR Arena not yeah not question like will we have the [4:40:47] choice or is it like advertising where the highest bidder is all of a sudden this is negotiated no you treat it as as [4:40:54] as a negotiated contract as a donation ain't new room the [4:41:02] new come on hey hey hey he so that's good hey I don't have any hey so we got [4:41:11] naming over here 50 and that and that could be a million that could be 10 million that could be 50,000 that could [4:41:17] be can can I say though that that to me seems like a timeline that that is going to be harder to execute and so that's [4:41:25] one that that the idea of pursuing it is maybe more of a longterm 2027 so let's let let's keep [4:41:33] going through the list and then let's talk about what's now later should we zero then no let's keep [4:41:41] going through it now and then we'll talk about what in capital expenses or [4:41:48] expenses line that one so we know that it's okay on the expense side capital [4:41:56] capital equ was no those are two different things capital budget Capital cut of8 85 it's actually [4:42:04] 805 that it's Capital Improvement plan C [4:42:09] the CIP Levy 85 yeah just deferring project 805 what [4:42:17] we 805 that number oh 805 yeah but we're okay with that no [4:42:26] I don't know I I am I am really really I know it's a big number and it gets us a long ways but that's how he got you know [4:42:32] $50 million to maintenance yeah I'm really uncomfortable with that okay um [4:42:39] so then right then that's a we have to figure out how to cover that great great [4:42:46] I am comfortable with it but we are going to look at what's on there and [4:42:52] you'll have a chance to say well yeah we should do this one no let's not do that one so that number might go from 805 to [4:42:59] something different no this is a structural thing for me it's not a project by project thing I think [4:43:05] philosophically I'm very uncomfortable not paying our Capital Improvement needs [4:43:12] um cuz that's how we balanced the budget historically is by not doing that okay [4:43:18] um all right so then that goes on the maybe side yeah okay um equipment [4:43:25] equipment 500 okay with [4:43:32] that M and overlay that's Mill and overlay no how about transitioning the assessing Department hen County that's [4:43:39] next yeah so the mill we're okay with cuz Chad's coming back with that I think that's the same thing [4:43:47] right 85,000 that's BR is is 85 yeah moving assessment to the county [4:43:55] is half a million half a million yes to both of those more than [4:44:01] that then we had hstf which [4:44:08] is I don't know if this is d appr that's the [4:44:16] that's that's just scaling it back I think okay and then and then [4:44:24] Publications and other okay so we are sitting so that's [4:44:29] it do we have a number for publication no we do not I would thr out 25 okay do [4:44:35] you feel okay about that okay [4:44:45] all right we are at 5 five is one one is 2 2.3 [4:44:55] 2.38 uh [4:45:02] 2465 2.49 should [4:45:07] be9 huge this huge isn't it [4:45:13] yeah I get it [4:45:19] right somebody got their [4:45:36] calculator so we're sitting we're sitting at about 2.5 2.5 yeah [4:45:42] 2. and then if you have your franchise free increase your right [4:45:48] work it's in there that's 2.5 now what what's not in [4:45:55] there that's sort of partials we sort of talked about partials is right maybe part some of [4:46:04] stabilization some tip spending [4:46:09] right some shifts on Capital maybe maybe not what all of that together could be [4:46:16] as much as a million Capital was [4:46:21] 85,000 so that's a large amount that that would be all of it right so I'm sort of taking middle right I think we [4:46:28] have to talk about that yeah let's just put the total amount that we could possibly [4:46:34] get and then we would be able to negotiate from that right so say 85 for [4:46:39] um Capital Improvement the um stabilization was 500 something [4:46:44] 589 589 and the tip spend is unknown well I mean how much how much we [4:46:51] had figures from that about decertifying the districts of stuff so you had you have imbalances of [4:47:00] the ones that you were talking about possibly closing uh you had somewhere in the total around 2 million total about 2 [4:47:08] million different than the balance the account balance is much bigger well we have the [4:47:14] balance and then we get a third of it no there's there's cash versus the long talking about cashing it out we talking [4:47:20] about are there projects we can actually use it for and that would that would be spending for some of the acur cash that [4:47:27] I I I say we start with the maximum amount we could get out of it and then we we go from there so we have just a [4:47:33] sense of a scale so can we maybe remove that one it wasn't on the recommendation list and I I hear that is really [4:47:40] important to and I think that we need to have a followup conversation about it but Bill isn't here and I don't really feel [4:47:45] comfortable attaching a number when I don't feel as confident with what that number means I just I need more [4:47:52] information okay so it's an other idea so we're not looking at at staff recommendation that's important but so [4:47:59] then 174 for the um htsf excuse me and Sarah you are right [4:48:07] the capital list does add up to 855 I don't know how myel did that wrong what [4:48:14] about that Yorktown Park master plan at 40,000 yeah we we including that because [4:48:20] it's it's a timeliness issue with Richfield and some work that [4:48:26] theyed in the not The Purge included but we're just we're going to use a [4:48:32] different we're going use some reserves to pay so Scott so these three things we've got a Max of about another 1.6 so [4:48:41] we 4.1 total so Scott all right so if we were [4:48:47] to add those 41 if we add wait a [4:48:56] minute it's rounding error it's rounding error okay it's rounding okay so then [4:49:04] Scott were there other recommendations that staff [4:49:11] had that you haven't Quantified yet I don't think there are other [4:49:16] staff um initiated things that we need to quantify yet there are Council [4:49:22] suggestions that we still but then you had staff presented some that we haven't [4:49:27] Quantified completely yet I'm just trying to so okay so backing up y yeah [4:49:33] so um the franchise fees we put in at 1 million ad space we put in at 25 or 30 [4:49:39] something like that naming is something that is longterm and could be again [4:49:45] anything from 10 grand to 10 million to 10 I mean that's that's just so all over [4:49:50] the place that I don't think you can touch that really um Publications gen a [4:49:57] number and other was other right so I think I think you're largely Quantified [4:50:03] at this point and you're back to that that 4 million of which 2.5 or so you've [4:50:08] said is a slam dunk in terms of you're supportive well it's a yes okay fair [4:50:13] enough fair enough but but the Navy is still 1.6 so the stabilization we talked [4:50:19] about CIP deferred maintenance okay Carol on the page four of that memo is [4:50:27] the is the 805 the elements of it that would be involved in the 805 on the capital [4:50:34] Improvement referrals I just wanted if you look at the list you know number [4:50:39] again please to me it says page four I just it doesn't have a page number on it but it [4:50:46] says expenditures capital budget and then it says necessity staying in the CIP and the future Investments defer or [4:50:52] don't defer and other than Lewis Park which we haven't which isn't in the on yet it it [4:50:59] just seemed to me that when I look through this list that all these things could be [4:51:05] deferred I know that you have a philosophical concern about whether to get off you know get the CIP back but it [4:51:13] seems to me that there's no um detriment to the public by waiting a [4:51:21] year for these projects that compose the 805 especially if it's in the context of [4:51:29] you've got sort of the equivalent of balloon payments coming up on debt service in the next couple of years right that will are sort of one and done [4:51:37] if pushing out some of your Capital stuff to allow that to happen and then get [4:51:43] back okay did that did that drive I did not [4:51:49] get the sense that we had balloon payments coming up on our de that was in quotes that was in quotes you you've got [4:51:54] you've got Debt Service payments that are coming up that they're going to be done so that's the opposite of the [4:52:01] balloon we have things falling off the debt service that will be coming clear and and that's happening in 2026 we have [4:52:09] four different debt payments coming off in the next four to five years but we're taking on more with things like the fire [4:52:17] station right and so when I look at the trajectory right and when we've gotten [4:52:22] the percentages year over year it's not just this this year that we have a hard [4:52:28] year with it's the next five years yes that we're showing potentially double [4:52:34] digit numbers and so I I tend to agree with council member Jackson that [4:52:41] we can't just talk about onee deferral of certain things because we're going to have this problem at least through 2030 [4:52:48] when we looking at the the longevity of the debt servicing of the fire station a [4:52:54] friendly push back on that back to to James's Point earlier today yes it [4:53:00] doesn't solve the problem a onee push back does not solve the problem but if if you look at it as what's the first [4:53:07] bang and what's the next Bang it actually helps you with the first bang and gives you time to solve the [4:53:15] second to solve the second and and I'll I'll add in looking at projections some of the changes we made with the debt [4:53:22] service projects when we gave you what the initial projection of the the 177% [4:53:27] number right was based on doing everything at the same Pace we slowed down and moved the process of some of [4:53:34] those debt service projects which also is going to help balance that out in the long-term tail run now it's just it's [4:53:41] it's it's basically scheduling out our debt and to take more time to to do the [4:53:46] things we need to do but it does lower your future outcome projections we're not showing you all that yet because it [4:53:52] just gets really complicated I don't want you to get too attached to numbers that are so far in the future and we don't know all the externalities but I I [4:53:59] would say that that if we make some of those prioritization what are the things and can can this move back a little bit [4:54:06] it does really help us to be able to balance that debt service schedule the way that we've proposed it the updated [4:54:13] version but my concern is when we took LS park off in order to get back to [4:54:19] where we are is a million dollars new spending based on the previous year and [4:54:25] so that's 2% right there increase just to get back to where we had been prior to the cuts of [4:54:31] 2024 and if we keep doing that forever that it's just going to jump and jump and you never not have that Cliff oh you [4:54:38] know sort of dam blaz over your head right we're going to have to increase our Levy by 2% just to do this [4:54:46] replacement Pro to get back to where a pace where we can start addressing um deferred maintenance so that's why said [4:54:52] yes one year we can do it and doesn't but then to put it back in is a huge increase yeah um it's like your stock [4:54:59] goes down 50% has to go up 100% to get back to whole and so every time you make [4:55:05] those cuts on the short term it makes the future much more difficult and as as drik said the Deferred maintenance [4:55:10] number is growing despite efforts and I think to Carolyn's point also we need to [4:55:17] think of the type of project that is the Deferred maintenance and the impact on community and with the park and wreck [4:55:24] building you know you think about what that could mean to the community mental health physical health there can't be [4:55:31] programming there in the summer because they don't even have an agback system you know so I agree entirely with what [4:55:37] you just said and I think when we look at the bird maintenance we can't just look at the interest and the cost and [4:55:44] what is acred but we also need to look at impact to community and and I guess [4:55:51] that leads me back to a suggestion of what do you try what do you have time [4:55:57] to do and discuss na this year and what do you want to put on on Pace for a [4:56:02] longer discussion um yes you can't keep kicking the can down the road the can just gets [4:56:08] bigger and smellier and more expensive I'm it's it's also not fair for [4:56:16] us to frame that in that way for the staff so I don't disagree with what you [4:56:22] just said but the question is how do we accomplish those two things with the [4:56:30] funds that we have and so we can't just say well no we need to because we keep deferring [4:56:38] maintenance we're going to kick it down the road true true and true M but we [4:56:45] still got to solve the problem of if we're going to do that if we're not going to kick it down the road we have [4:56:51] to have constructive ways to solve the problem and so our proposed well I'm [4:56:57] sorry I won't say the word proposed framed a way to think about um [4:57:04] structuring I'm going to word it this way structuring um the CIP needs which helps [4:57:13] change the trajectory of the U service debt right [4:57:19] or Debt Service right that is like that's something we could lean into and figure [4:57:25] out all right how would we do that that's a solution a potential solution [4:57:30] but we got to come up with solutions for this Stu right absolutely so I when we [4:57:35] talked about Edinburgh that's a a facility that has a very large infer maintenance Bill [4:57:43] attached to it yep and I'm It's a Wonderful Community Asset but it's very [4:57:51] very expensive expensive to operate and expensive to maintain Y and I think we [4:57:56] have to have a very serious expense so yes I want to continue to fix things I mean asset preservation to me is a very [4:58:02] very high value Y and I I'm I'm going to keep fighting for that how much of our [4:58:08] deferred maintenance is at EDB and and I'm sure you have the number [4:58:14] and what what how can we get out is is it past as day Carolyn before we go to [4:58:22] deferred maintenance uh can we finish the conversation on deferring capital [4:58:28] expenditure well that's that to me is the same it's not the same thing to me it isn't well then no no I mean there's [4:58:34] a big difference between to me between taking care of what you already own and [4:58:40] then replacing thing things on a capital Improvement plan basis I'm not following [4:58:45] where you're at I'm sorry I just can't find well you're talking about Lewis Park you started talking about Lewis [4:58:51] park building I started thinking about you and you were talking about you you push these things back they've [4:58:57] recommended $85,000 in Capital Improvements be pushed back that's staff recommendation [4:59:03] these are things that we could move back to accomplish what James is talking about in this coming budget year without [4:59:08] worrying about it because there's somewhat of a bit of arbitrariness to this way they get cited [4:59:15] in the OR programmed into the capital Improvement plan anyway uh now this is Lewis Park shelter [4:59:21] building aside you got me thinking about that too so for me when I look at this [4:59:26] list of things that the staff has said could be uh deferred pushed back to meet [4:59:32] the budget needs this year I don't see anything in there that I couldn't live with or that the public couldn't live [4:59:38] with other than Lewis Park we've been talking about that and now you got me thinking that well maybe I'd moderate my [4:59:44] position on my thinking on uh the um uh [4:59:50] the budget stabilization reserve for 600,000 bucks and think about that not [4:59:55] as a not as a one-time reduction of the general Levy but as spending it on a specific project to help make it happen [5:00:02] yeah so you take 600,000 there and you make a capital Improvement and maybe we [5:00:08] get another 400,000 and in uh in Surplus we don't know that yet but it it seems [5:00:15] seems to me then that we're in Striking Distance of being able to do that project uh maybe defer those other [5:00:22] $85,000 worth of projects and then pivot to the conversation I'll call it the [5:00:27] uton principle sorry we need we need two to three million bucks a year to [5:00:33] maintain what we want yeah and and to lay on top of that idea is then it's [5:00:39] taking your concern and figuring out well then what [5:00:45] is the plan so that we're not kicking it down the road next year so it would be [5:00:51] helpful to me to understand the difference between we're going to do this and U asset preservation because to [5:00:59] me what is in the CIP is asset preservation but maybe I'm wrong in that [5:01:05] um and to be very clear the Lewis Lewis Park is not in an it's on the page but [5:01:11] it's not in any of the numbers we've been talking about right right what do you mean it's not in the 4 million no no [5:01:17] no it's not it's still it's a plus if you add that back in it actually goes the [5:01:23] other we the same I will say this that some of these projects that are in the [5:01:28] dier don't do I understand the principle of wanting to continue to pay towards Capital so if that's something that you [5:01:35] guys all decide you want to keep that number where it's at that's fine we can look at some of these projects even if [5:01:43] they still wouldn't be the ones that we might propose to spend the $85,000 on because for instance the life [5:01:50] safety card readers the reason we're taking that off is because we had to do that as part of updating the fire the [5:01:56] the fire station coming online we had we made the decision to upgrade all of the [5:02:02] card readers ahead of time so that project isn't needed anymore that's still $150,000 that if you if you were [5:02:09] on principle wanted to stay at our $2 million number we could still do other [5:02:15] things that are asset Improvement but there not everything that's on this list [5:02:20] would be what we would come back to you to say to spend the $85,000 on because [5:02:26] some of it might not make the most sense in today's context we've learned more information since then we need to know [5:02:33] what is listed that is no longer needed when we're evaluating and this cuz one [5:02:40] of the things that was cut um was eliminating the cost of running [5:02:47] elections this year but we're not running elections this year and I think just for clarity for the public and for [5:02:53] all of us we need to know you can't be including or you need some kind of [5:02:58] little Mark to say this is being listed because it has an impact on the budget but it is not something that is relevant [5:03:06] it's not an actual expense cuz if it's not an actual expense [5:03:13] or I'm not it's okay if it's something that we don't like we are not spending [5:03:18] money on elections this year because we're not having elections and so if we don't need these Life Safety this system [5:03:25] anymore that should not even be here I don't think so AR how did how did the list come from was it taking was it [5:03:31] taking the the CIP that was already timed out and just looking at the next things in line and saying yeah we went [5:03:38] through the list and we said do we need need or want need or want need or want [5:03:43] could it be deferred could it not and that's how we came up with this list so even like the parking ramp 88 access route even if we were to say that we [5:03:52] need to do that let's let's say that that comes back we don't know that that's the actually enough money or that [5:03:57] there's a route to be able to do that for 200 Grand so that's going to require more scope either way so it doesn't make [5:04:04] sense for us to leave that that project on as is but you're right Julie if you need more information on these projects [5:04:11] I can we can most certainly go through the list and kind of provide more context we would Levy for the [5:04:17] 805 that's coming at so that's so that's right yeah so it actually doesn't even [5:04:22] matter what's on here exactly we're saying we're going to L you for $885,000 [5:04:27] to go towards capital projects yes right and and and it's [5:04:33] $85,000 $855 actually $855,000 for a $40 million problem so it's a drop [5:04:41] in the bucket for the need okay and I just I can't Pan the table hard enough on that we have over40 million dollar of [5:04:49] deferred maintenance and if we don't start doing that it's going to grow whether we pay [5:04:55] it or don't pay it it's going to continue to grow it's growing at PS faster than we're funding it and I just [5:05:01] Caroline can we get a what's the definition of deferred maintenance to you I mean is a is a normale park [5:05:07] playground equipment replacement and deferred maintenance or is that a roof and HVAC [5:05:13] systems and buildings that to to the official definition I use it for it's that Perry might use it for you know a [5:05:20] piece of play of ground equipment that's past its expected life or past the use of the park right but from a building [5:05:27] standpoint it's this hbac system useful life is 20 years it's 21 years old [5:05:34] should have been replaced last year so here a friendly suggestion because I don't want us to get caught on this [5:05:40] particular Hill right deferred maintenance already broke already passed [5:05:46] du should have been done regular maintenance repair and replace life cycle is up this year right I mean [5:05:54] they're on a continum um so maintenance whether deferred or not is what you're talking [5:06:00] about when you say we need to do more like 3 million a year that's including what backlog and what keeps coming du [5:06:08] right yes okay and I are talking about overall talking about it we all have a common definition [5:06:16] yeah no I think that's a really good I I appreciate the the questions um I don't want to go project by project I trust [5:06:21] the staff to know what needs what urgent and what can be defer but it's it's that [5:06:27] placeholder in the budget that is is a very important to me [5:06:32] we got thrown off by this fact that they just threw projects in here that I thought were [5:06:40] ones that could easily be deferred but what what caught my attention was wants [5:06:45] versus needs if it's needed we should be doing it if it's just a want and it happens to [5:06:51] be in the next CIP cycle push it back well let's let's ask the staff when [5:06:57] we're looking at our annual construction fund and the park fund are we looking at wants or we looking at well I think they [5:07:05] did that they just said don't do the 85 yeah what we are [5:07:11] saying is we're I'm not sure that that's exactly that's exactly what they're saying okay let me let me just clarify [5:07:18] for a second Derek's number going back to the estimated $40 million number [5:07:23] that's out there unless you we are going to choose not to do something that we are [5:07:29] currently doing that is a real number that exists it's okay to have some level of deferred maintenance right we 0.25 [5:07:36] versus 39 right now we're at 39 there is stuff we could do so if you say it is [5:07:42] important us on principle that we continue to invest in in construction and we continue to invest towards our [5:07:48] our deferred maintenance or whatever that looks like we can come up with a list of recommendations we might rep [5:07:54] prioritize what's on this 805 because some of these 805 we went through the list and we said we these are wants but [5:08:00] there's other needs that exist right so we can do that if that's if in principle [5:08:06] to you all it's it's important that we don't take a step back backwards from a construction Levy perspective that's [5:08:13] also okay so does that I mean I I think [5:08:18] you can't with all due respect Derek and and every facilities guy I've ever worked with uh there's a big number [5:08:25] there's a big number out there and you're never going to approve enough ly property tax levy to pay for it you just [5:08:31] won't and so we what we want to do is make sure that we've got as robust uh [5:08:38] amount of property tax levy that we can afford in your view uh to keep things [5:08:43] going the best we can and to advance them per our kind of mission and vision right but so now I'm [5:08:50] confused so you recommended the 805 [5:08:57] 805 right and so then you gave us an examples of what that 805 would [5:09:04] be and then Ari said well we may or may not do some of those things there might be some other things that are more [5:09:12] important that frame is fair I'm assuming that you've already done an [5:09:18] analysis and you've said we don't need an additional 805 next year for CIP [5:09:25] spending how about this how about flipping it on his head well can I get an answer to that is that true the we [5:09:34] would love as much money as you will give us to to take Construction in general but you've asked us to set a [5:09:40] goal and to prioritize and so we are going to prioritize and that means that [5:09:45] some of these projects that are things that maybe our things are values wise that we support we're going to have to [5:09:51] say we don't have to do these next year I get that but how much is that is that [5:09:58] 805 or is it some other number so what if if you weren't if you hadn't if you [5:10:03] know if you hadn't been asked to do this right if you hadn't been asked to do this what at this stage of the game what [5:10:11] number would you have in the budget for Capital repair [5:10:17] replace 2 million is that right you about like 2.1 2.1 2.1 and so is it fair [5:10:24] to say that with with this cut that you're looking at [5:10:30] 1.3 and you're going to spend that 1.3 on some stuff yeah yeah on what you [5:10:36] think are the right things and in the past in the past you usually spend about 1 million a year yes is that right I [5:10:44] trust that two it was at two and then 25 we cut it down to 1 million so we have [5:10:50] to get it back so it wasn't two it went down to one now this would be actually [5:10:55] up to 1.3 M so it would it would be in the process of going back to the two [5:11:01] going back to the two yeah so is there is there a middle ground is there a middle ground that starts to get us back [5:11:08] faster right maybe you set the goal at at you know the goal should be two or [5:11:14] more we're at one right now say 1.5 so I thanks for that I will [5:11:21] say I trust sa yep so theyve looked at the [5:11:26] two and said given the goals that you've set we need [5:11:32] 1.3 that's what we're leving for and you're trying to represent what might [5:11:38] not get done with the 805 next year right okay that yeah [5:11:45] so I'm not gonna bend on this so you can all out vote me okay I was in the [5:11:50] basement of grar looking at the original 1965 equipment that was holding in toxic [5:11:57] chemicals okay and I I am I'm ashamed that a city at its wealthy as Z was [5:12:05] sitting on top of this toxic waste dump essentially that with was held together with duct tape and bailing wire we took [5:12:12] the tour of the pool the pool is sitting on toxic chemicals in a crowded little room I am ashamed that we live in this [5:12:19] wealthy community and we have these toxic chemicals in this hot little room and it's the equipment wears out [5:12:25] immediately because it's so tight and so inappropriate okay the public doesn't [5:12:30] see that it's not shiny it's not sexy but if we do not take care of the things that we do and upgrade it it's it's just [5:12:38] wrong and that that of all the things that we do I mean we have to have police and fire and Stu like that but if we [5:12:44] build these facilities and we don't keep them shame on us and that's that's we have a plan for that one we have a plan [5:12:50] for the pool we're going to have to bond for it we have went got the lost for [5:12:56] Brar but the equipment was purchased in 1965 it wasn't purchased in 1985 and you [5:13:04] got tired so this is a generational thing and this is a I I think that if we [5:13:10] are a wealthy community we should be able to care for what we have and and that's just that's where I'm at and you [5:13:16] can all vote me down on that I'm only one vote but that's just I'm not going to I I think we need to stay at at least [5:13:22] $2 million a year and increase it over time because we have these beautiful facilities and I've been places where [5:13:28] people don't invest in their City things where city parks are crap where it's 1950 [5:13:34] swings okay and I just I I find that shameful and so we are proud City and we [5:13:40] should careful what we have and that's my I'll get off my St I appreciate that I'll completely you on that so so so [5:13:48] here's a way you know here's another way to think about it car so let's say that you were going to this is way I thinking [5:13:55] about this Preferred Capital Improvement some of these things that are maybe wants not needs let this be maybe more than need c [5:14:03] let's say that you thought you should on you're right on the schedule at your house where you want to you think the time to replace to [5:14:10] but now you got a kid going to college and the roof isn't it's 20 years old but [5:14:15] it's not 25 years old right and you think okay we can wait another year to fix that Rook because I got a kid going [5:14:22] to college and I got all these demands and that's what we're trying that's what I think we're trying to think about is [5:14:27] in in with respect to the demands we're putting on our residents who are the owners of this [5:14:32] town how much should they shoulder year after year of of doing these things and [5:14:38] you're making great points that taking care of what you own I think we've done a poor job of that uh you know keeping [5:14:45] up on the things that we own it's easier you know in a way it's easier to build it than to take care of it over time so [5:14:52] but I think and I think that's something we should talk about some sort of suain sustainable fund to make sure that we take care of what we own it a Time way [5:14:59] well and that's what I'm trying to preserve because our kids started going to college in 1985 when the the lower [5:15:06] property taxes thing took you know I was a Bond attorney 92 and uh the things [5:15:12] were passing state after State you can only increase taxes property taxes at the at the rate of inflation or 2% [5:15:19] whichever was high whichever was lower and that's was the culture that created [5:15:25] this deferred maintenance yes and so we've been going to our kids have been going to college since 1990 true how [5:15:31] many kids do we have is 2025 that's 35 years of kids going to college and and [5:15:37] that's why I just I put F down us but you raised a really good point and that is when we are looking at our CIP are we [5:15:44] doing you know the best the best we replace everything every 20 years no matter what or can we stretch that from [5:15:51] 20 years to 25 or 30 years and that's a value discussion we have not had I was [5:15:56] hoping we would have last year more in depth and we didn't um I am willing to have that conversation I don't think we [5:16:01] need to replace playground equipment every 20 years it's seems really aggressive to me but we haven't had and [5:16:09] no it's not um but like I said I've been in towns where they were literally the swings were built in 1950 and they're [5:16:15] the same swings that kids are swinging on and that's not where we are but we need to have that discussion about [5:16:21] whether the time periods that we're looking at are fit our values but you [5:16:27] know how many kids we have going to college it's just at some point we I appreciate that I'm comfortable [5:16:36] with the 805 being included and what I would say if we have another [5:16:42] list of potential um sources including what [5:16:48] we've emailed then we could look at those and if we can deliver on any of those things [5:16:54] then we have dollars that we can figure out what's the most effective way to do it yeah and so the last thing I'm going [5:17:01] to say and I said this before I love all of my [5:17:06] colleagues but I trust the staff because they understand these Services [5:17:13] they're doing the work I'm not I don't have the level of understanding that [5:17:19] they do so I'm going to trust the staff on the recommendation [5:17:25] and I'm going to be I will stand on the soap box and do that to the community [5:17:31] and so I'm that's where I am so I'm cool with the 805 and I would use my other ideas to [5:17:39] see how I can close the gap and use some of those dollars on the uh deferred [5:17:44] maintenance so Scott real quick to that point you good to be [5:17:51] love oh wait sorry to be trusted um so [5:17:56] we started the day with um 4 million in recommendations from this board right [5:18:03] 2.5 rocking a rolling up to 1.6 various levels of [5:18:09] questions and concerns right and and remember I think it's worth remembering [5:18:15] that this is coming to mainly from just two two of the major three buckets of [5:18:21] our budgeting system the biggest one is the one that has is so imprecise right [5:18:27] now it's hard to even talk it through but there will be some additional savings in yeah so up to 1.6 with [5:18:35] questions on let's say for argument say half of that which is the capital amount [5:18:43] we we just say no to let's just for argument sake so now we're looking at [5:18:48] um about half about eight right and let's say that that we want to hold on [5:18:54] to some of the stabilization um so you know let's let's let's say half of that [5:19:01] 1.6 um they ultimately go through and about half of it let's say we've got a million whole from where we started this [5:19:08] morning as you look at these other ideas and and you know some other ideas that [5:19:13] have come to you from Council that maybe haven't been talked today what scope and scale of potential [5:19:21] in the near term so 26 27 do some of these again no one will hold him to this [5:19:28] this is back of the envelope this is unprepared right right what kind of scope in scale or range potential is is [5:19:36] in this right does that make sense which are you saying which of those [5:19:42] categories yes has multi-year benefit is that no no we get to a million how if [5:19:49] get a million with the other IDE if we started the day with four four million in cuts and we're ending the day with three million in Cuts is there a [5:19:56] potential other million sitting in some of these other IDE one other observation I want I [5:20:02] want sitting here we're having this conversation about Cuts or Revenue to some [5:20:11] degree but if we get to the actual budget and all of these things result in [5:20:17] us still having a 10% Levy increase yes sir I want to make sure that we understand that there's more work to do [5:20:24] I think there's more work to do period probably yeah so [5:20:30] um to Carolyn's good at prompting uh thinking on things so uh and P what what [5:20:37] do we have running coming off of um borrowing Cycles here what what in the [5:20:43] payments that are involved one did they come off again you said that earlier I wasn't pained close over the next four to five years over the next four to five [5:20:50] years we have you want to know total of all of [5:20:56] those in the next five years or what do you ask well you can do do it tell us what's rolling off first and what the [5:21:03] what the payment has been what the amount we collected from per is yep so the ium Debt Service that is a 2015 H [5:21:11] bond that is about 390 92 95,000 a year that was rolling [5:21:17] off this 300 about 398,000 that's coming off in 2025 we're [5:21:23] making the final payment this year and then the fire station Debt Service uh this is a 2016 issuance [5:21:31] that's about $445,000 that's a trac station [5:21:38] yes this one will be coming final payment is in [5:21:43] 2027 and then the Public Works facility Debt Service this is a 2017 [5:21:49] issuance it's about a million and a quarter it's coming off in [5:21:57] 2028 and then the Public Works facility Debt Service this is the 20203 original [5:22:03] issuance that we refunded in 21 this one is coming off this is about [5:22:09] 480,000 this is coming off in 2029 so let me just pause for a half second [5:22:15] there though because there's also debt that we have planned to go on and I don't want to get us too deep into the [5:22:22] we can talk more about Debt Service but for the sake of time one question that I'm I'm I want to try to get to one of [5:22:29] the bullet points that you put up there which is edenboro which is a big that's a big bullet point and I don't want to leave here gotten a little bit more [5:22:36] context on that conversation um because that's and I I do feel I feel [5:22:44] comfortable with where we're at going into the operating setting goals with departments and trying to get closer to [5:22:49] getting back to that number or having conversations about the stuff that's still on the maybe list right so I I if [5:22:57] we can at least preserve a little bit of time to at least have Perry talk a little bit more about the Edinburough [5:23:02] because that's I don't want to leave that for staff that hears but that as an unanswered just [5:23:09] conversation well and that's where I was trying to go you know what's the potential over here and is there okay well here's the only point I want to [5:23:15] make and it's General in nature and that is as these and I know staff and Council [5:23:20] may be at odds over this uh I'm not sure but as as we have some of this debt roll [5:23:26] off for things that we've we've built for the benefit of our [5:23:32] town in terms of maintaining what we own there's a potential source of Revenue [5:23:39] there if we continue those payments that we've historically made and use them for a different purpose now there may be a [5:23:46] different difference of opinion as to whether those should continue or whether [5:23:53] uh they should be used for the purpose of maintaining what we own but it does strike me that's a conversation to be [5:23:59] held at some point in the future that depends on how much new is coming on Bo right that's money that yeah yeah [5:24:06] depends on how much new is coming on Bo St this could be a net [5:24:13] zero I was just going to say there's an assumption already built in if we want to change that assumption we should definitely talk about it but there's an [5:24:19] assumption built in that we're using some of what's coming off we're being strategic and planning ahead with when [5:24:25] we have new things like the the Aquatic Center pump room what those Debt Service schedules to try to balance so the [5:24:32] impact to Residents is is minimized so so I I don't want that is an essention [5:24:38] that's already in there so if we if we reverse that and start using it for something else that means that we we're [5:24:43] making a hole so I'm okay with talking about it but we should acknowledge that we're already that'll be that'll be a [5:24:50] counil decision and it is a way to generate New [5:24:57] Capital dollars in a way that has a doesn't have quite an impact on on tax L [5:25:05] all right we've got about half an hour left yeah are about that so back to you [5:25:12] Scott what's the potential over here and then um overall and then let's let's [5:25:18] talk about Ur specifically well end I [5:25:25] it's right now um my view this um endoro park is in the budget work plan for [5:25:31] discuss and I kind of liken that to a little bit of how uh we had a kind of a [5:25:37] deep dive that we talked to you about Brar Arena prior to heading on that path and we did a very deep dive on the Eden [5:25:43] art center before heading down that path Centennial Lakes Park the same thing if you recall you know we projected out [5:25:49] when those Park fees would drop everything so we looked at operations Capital kind of the whole assets as well [5:25:55] in in my opinion we're doing that same exact thing for you with Edinburgh park with Edinburgh Park could you define the [5:26:01] scope of the park because it always gets confusing how how much is included in that indoor space for the park and [5:26:08] that's what is going to be very tricky about this so when you think about that [5:26:13] parcel uh the hotel now apartment complex owns a portion of that and a [5:26:19] shared wall the senior living facility owns a portion of the outdoor and a shared wall the Corporate Center owns [5:26:26] the ramps and a shared wall so from the city perspective is we own the interior [5:26:33] the loading dock and three shared walls and then I'm trying trying to get my [5:26:38] directions out to the east where the uh kind of called theck drop off is right [5:26:44] so it's it's got a layer of complexity already because of the shared partnership right um so for us right now [5:26:53] does that include the pool and the old Adventure sorry so includes the uh the pool the up upper walking Track the [5:26:59] amphitheater the adventure Peak the um into our playground area the summit where we have birthday parties and kind [5:27:06] of the two entrance doors um you know where you enter into the Corporate Center is Corporate Center [5:27:11] vice versa but those assets are the responsibility of the city um when we [5:27:18] look at the CIP we are not asking for a change or a um or a $30 million CIP [5:27:26] project we would not have that um until we complete that analysis just like we did on the others right which kind of [5:27:32] set the stage about how do we want to tackle that how do we want to appropriate that uh there are some short-term needs that we do have very [5:27:39] you know kind of concerning things about you know related to the you know the the filters and the HVAC units and things [5:27:45] like that but not necessarily um you know when I look at the 26 and 27 CIP [5:27:51] you know we are not asking for a $30 million investment for Ed um similar to you know my perspective always is when I [5:27:58] look at the CIP is that's kind of a a policy and a vision document for the community um where would we like to be [5:28:04] and then as you approach each Year's Levy that's where you kind of set those budget priorities so um you know you can [5:28:10] say we want a long-term golf facility new Enterprise but we're not proposing one at this time but it's in that Vision [5:28:15] that's how we kind of look at the remainder of the Edinburgh Park assets is that's something we have to get to [5:28:21] but we need to do a deep dive for you before just like we've traditionally done on the other facilities but you [5:28:26] need some budget help on it this year regardless of what the future I don't if we need budget help we need capacity [5:28:33] help and that's the struggle that I already talked about is you know implementing all the other projects that we have going on we are um kind of our [5:28:41] our staff is a little bit at capacity of what we can take on to do that so depending on what we do that from a timing perspective within this next uh [5:28:48] budget work plan is delivering that stuff to if we had to Outsource it that's a [5:28:54] direct cost if we can do it internally like we did CP that's a a capacity issue [5:28:59] not a direct cost so in terms of today's discussion the answer on the edenburgh [5:29:05] question is maybe but we're talking next year at the soonest before we can have [5:29:11] any real conversation about making a decision yes no maybe how [5:29:16] choices maybe well real real data and then real choices of what a proposal is because right now we're not actually [5:29:22] making a proposal to any of those things but it is on the list in the CIP if that makes sense so it's not part of the the [5:29:30] 26 L but back to you know we're trying to get this just want to make sure that you're not asking us to spend money at [5:29:36] Edinburgh until you come back with with your analysis of what you think we should do I think there are some small things that we need to do to keep [5:29:41] operating but not anywhere into that okay seven figures I guess and will [5:29:49] this analysis show um the revenue versus costs yeah I think we do user a deep [5:29:56] dive on the user profile like we had on the others Revenue costs cost capture um market analysis we did that with the [5:30:03] other facilities as well is who are we competing with that has changed since edinburgh's incep and I was trying to go [5:30:09] back through my mind just hisorical knowledge is I think this will probably be the fourth Deep dive on I think um [5:30:15] that we would have done so it is kind of an evolving one but I just kind of go back to the complexity is the three [5:30:22] shared ws and that's that's a different layer than we have at with arts or the [5:30:28] arena or the Aquatic Center that's just a uniqueness that that has some some [5:30:34] limits and the analysis would include alternative usage as well as potential [5:30:43] sale okay so not going to help with our with the nut that is on in the middle of [5:30:50] the room here this year could be longer term but not this year so Scott back [5:30:57] again potentially broadening tip SP spending um potential additional local [5:31:04] option sales tax um are you doing any are you planning any small area planning this year that you're not okay [5:31:14] um that was already off the table um cutting back on small [5:31:21] events think we should if we ring all that dry is that potentially half a million [5:31:30] dollars and more I mean and to the rest I I mean that uh and [5:31:38] the rest of our operating budget okay yeah what are you yesing that there is [5:31:45] between that in in savings that we can probably squeeze out of our additional [5:31:50] operating budgets we're we should be able that [5:31:55] million so despite the fact that 1.5 or so has [5:32:01] been shot down in whole or in part or there are questions about it in whole or [5:32:06] in part you can take some of these other ideas and looking at the operations and still [5:32:12] feel comfortable getting to a four what so your number though you're you just [5:32:17] quoted the maybe number that was the 805 the [5:32:24] 170 589 and Scott you're saying you can [5:32:31] cover that Gap I'm saying there's probably an additional savings in a $60 million operating budget that [5:32:39] and I'm assuming that that you do some on some of these right that maybe you spend down part of the stabilization or [5:32:47] you take a Clos you take a closer look at that human resources C for or maybe [5:32:52] or you out vot Carolyn on some of the capital right I'm assuming that some of [5:32:58] that 1.6 actually makes it for so I have a question y um and this [5:33:06] is a process question we identifi we're focusing rightly so on 2026 right now [5:33:12] yeah um how how do we as a entity look at the long-term structure of all of [5:33:19] this and some of this stuff is longterm um and I think that um this I I [5:33:26] mentioned this with the housing thing that the pie may not be continuing to grow at the rate it has been um how can [5:33:34] we um look at the structural uh growth because labor costs are going to continue to go and we have a population [5:33:43] inverted pyramid on the workforce right so those things aren't going to go away the costs are going to continue to [5:33:49] increase um how can we look structurally what's the process foring structurally [5:33:54] long term how we do this is is this something we do every year and then you [5:34:00] know again push down well that's a long-term issue but how do we build that into our calendar to look at these [5:34:06] long-term structural is the retreat has always been a time and [5:34:12] and a place when we do that so that's this is this is different in the spirit [5:34:18] of it is a little different than what we've done before but we have been doing this okay and then um with the [5:34:27] CIP um Derek pointed out that everybody looks at it just ever so slightly differently [5:34:33] um I would like to see some of the values that are assumed Department by [5:34:38] department for the replacement and um and it had just put some sunshine in [5:34:44] that um I know that you have it's always very complex but I guess I'd like to for [5:34:50] us as a council to hear the values um this is why we do this in each section [5:34:57] of it um so that we can then articulate yes that reflects the values of the community maybe that's a little more [5:35:03] aggressive than we need um maybe that's not aggressive enough um but that's next [5:35:08] year when we're looking at the CIP I would very much like to have that discussion um so that we can um to the [5:35:14] mayor's point is it asset preservation or is it a a want to have um whether we [5:35:19] can so that we can answer that when somebody asks us that I feel like I don't have sufficient grasp of that um [5:35:27] so that would be a request for next year the other thing I heard you guys say earlier today that would would help with [5:35:34] this um and it came up in two or three different cont context is how do we [5:35:41] um build some some Straw Men some um we [5:35:47] take our historic Trends and we do forecasting based on some assumptions and we keep rolling forecasting and [5:35:53] revising them based on various assumptions but right we we do some of that we take um a longer look at at [5:36:02] budgeting trajectories year on year as a as a r we do this in the corporate world [5:36:07] all the time right um the assumption is that if population is assumed to grow [5:36:14] like this then our staffing is going to assume to grow and inflation is going to do this and we just adjust right on a [5:36:20] rolling basis they're not they're not real projections but there are ARS that you can [5:36:27] see evolving faster maybe right because you've got a a longer term a longer [5:36:34] trajectory on some of this stuff did we put we did put assessment [5:36:40] yeah so K is that fair for what I think you brought it up two or three times y [5:36:45] yes sir um I just want to make sure what [5:36:51] you're coming back with is what I'm thinking you're coming [5:36:57] back so we've got this 1.6 and so I'm just going to hypothetic [5:37:03] but I'm going to use member rer the HS TS are you going to come back and say all [5:37:10] right within that list you've either figured out on the left side up here that you can cover all [5:37:17] of that or are you going to come back with recommendations and say we cover these or we just are you going to come [5:37:24] back and say in that area we think we should budget for 30 I hope it's but it might [5:37:31] the second one okay well I think it it also falls on us to go through and have [5:37:37] that conversation and say which of the 170 are must have versus ni yeah you now [5:37:46] have the recommendations right that you can you can so if I play that back you're going [5:37:52] to look at the top total 1.6 against the other ideas that you [5:37:58] have some on the board some aren't frankly and then you're going to hopefully come back a would be you [5:38:06] covered it all B would be you've got some kind of hybrid yeah and some of that might be just [5:38:13] getting better numbers as we go along right so like to me I view it as like okay now we're leaving the capital [5:38:19] section we're about to start the operating budget development and the message to sta is we got to figure out [5:38:25] how to how to reduce by $1.6 million that's the goal that we're setting so [5:38:30] you're not we're not going to go in line by line detail that maybe we're going to put off some salt in this one and we're [5:38:37] not going to get to that because we just can't but we us hitting that high number so that our projection what was the big [5:38:44] number which was conservative right we're always going to make projections that are going to be conservative we're [5:38:49] going to refine that and we're going to say we updated our projections we looked at line budgeting and each department [5:38:55] came up with as much as we could and you know what we landed at 1.2 that we feel really comfortable about there's some [5:39:01] other stuff we could cut that we want to talk to you about whatever that looks like so I think that's going to be the next step we're not going to go through [5:39:07] every single um every single item because some of it is going to be stuff we should be doing anyway right we [5:39:13] should be we should be looking at our services and seeing where do we have opportunities to [5:39:18] refine our our next big piece of budget information that impacts how we view [5:39:23] this it happens probably we'll be able to share it with you at the may work [5:39:29] session that we talked about earlier and that's kind of evaluation issues especially assessing um the assessment [5:39:36] for the upcoming year yeah okay please can I say one thing just for [5:39:43] clarification because I I heard 855 805 and I just wanted to provide clarification that it's actually 805 we [5:39:50] incorrectly slated life safety system Char readers in two places as 50 and 150 [5:39:57] it should only be 100,000 on the [5:40:03] future that's good [5:40:09] Lord give us and [5:40:15] the you know one one of the challenges that strikes me is um if we're on a two-year budget [5:40:22] cycle that we can we can probably figure out 2026 but we can't figure out [5:40:30] 2027 because we don't have that structured analysis done in time we [5:40:36] would normally adopt a 2-year budget proposal well so let's let's talk about [5:40:42] let's talk about that piece a little bit right because clearly there's there's we want to [5:40:48] change the cycle of of how this happens or change the amount of information or [5:40:54] the type of information on how this happened right and so I've heard a few [5:40:59] things from you from you to that extent um one is doing some of that long that [5:41:05] rolling forecasting and right that can give you a better sense of some of these things one is a deep [5:41:13] dive on um staff analysis in the short term you may be able to take the [5:41:20] external analyses that have already been done and use that to do as as a proxy [5:41:27] for probably half or more of the organization right you mean the [5:41:33] information was presented today that were done a couple years ago oh [5:41:40] with supplemented by what was what was done today which is pretty standard right if you wouldn't do that you [5:41:45] wouldn't do something like that every year anyway you'd be revising and updating so treat this a suggestion [5:41:51] would be you treat this this year um for next year right as take what you've got [5:41:56] and make use of it and then put a plan in for re a full revision right um and [5:42:03] maybe a process for how often that gets revised you talked about um creating some tools [5:42:11] around a more detailed sense of what can or can't be done with Tiff dollars and [5:42:17] lining that up with the CIP list for a better understanding of of where options [5:42:22] are there right um either in shortterm or long or mid or long-term [5:42:29] spending um you've talked about um we you're going to come back and get some [5:42:36] um uh some models on how to think about franchise fees right relative to to [5:42:43] property you're going to have you still have that discussion um so while you know we're guessing a million we don't [5:42:49] actually know what that is and so that could that could adjust right um and then that that will be a new source that [5:42:56] you have a trajectory on um you've got the local sales tax that you're early in the process of learning that trajectory [5:43:02] you can start building those trajectories all of which is to say that it sounds to me like there are a number [5:43:08] of these sort of working models that you can start building over the next year [5:43:13] may not solve the 2027 cycle but it could set you up for better information [5:43:20] sooner for 2028 those kinds of things right [5:43:27] um if you say today that the better part of valor for [5:43:33] 2026 is hitting this 4 million mark um and letting staff come back to you [5:43:39] with provisions on it you can actually Focus your brains on starting to think about 2027 [5:43:45] sooner because right because you you you said okay we know our Target and this [5:43:51] right we we've got that direction you can change it what else can you [5:43:57] do assuming you agree with things I just said which you [5:44:06] may what are the big wild cards from um Capital Improvement or Capital [5:44:13] planning standpoint is local option sales tax if we get if we get that bill passed [5:44:22] the r bill passes it's going to be an unbelievable benefit for us our budget team because [5:44:29] we're going to be able to do everything for about half the cost with the voter approval on [5:44:37] no because people other than people living D are going to pay for half of it just like they are now and you will know [5:44:44] the answer to that this summer sometime or we'll know by we'll know by the end [5:44:49] of May timeline wise you would know by the end of May and probably as soon as [5:44:54] you could put something out for voters to vote on would be the 26 [5:45:00] yeah and it takes us about that long to un the community prepare that right because it [5:45:07] gets that broad validation these are the projects we should be investing [5:45:14] in even if you just use the even if we just get the existing F dat don't [5:45:20] lengthen it don't increase it just whatever's already been just get the 19e [5:45:27] spending what else can you do or think about doing over the next few [5:45:33] months what balls can you get rolling that sets you up for the 2027 [5:45:42] conversation I have idea [5:45:48] um I I'm the oldest person in the room and so I've [5:45:55] seity longevity the most longevity in the room and so I've seen a lot of these [5:46:01] projects that were talking about replacing how they came to be and a lot [5:46:07] of the things that came to us came in the way of donations or groups [5:46:14] neighborhoods groups gifting something to the city and actually Perry's done [5:46:21] the best job that I've seen in my career here of protecting ourselves against donations like when the bench breaks [5:46:28] down we're getting rid of the bench if it's free we're not we're not committing to replacing the bench right so kudos to [5:46:37] Parry for that we just I don't think had that foresight for many many decades [5:46:42] before and I'll give you an example that hit my mailbox well some of our mailboxes cuz I think at least three of [5:46:49] you were carpent on it to me a resident um got our about town annual report and [5:46:55] uh she had some ideas to share she's very committed to public art has been for decades and she made a comment that [5:47:02] at Centennial Lakes we have all of these pods packed [5:47:08] pads pads where we used to have public art and didn't we make a commitment and [5:47:14] now there's no public art and so at least in her view we created an [5:47:20] expectation that we would always provide public art on those pads I think some of [5:47:26] our Park shelters came to us in that same way and so if we can leverage I [5:47:31] don't know who we have for partners I think the Community Foundation isn't the same as it was initially where they [5:47:37] would have been our partner to identify a project like let's say leis Park to [5:47:42] raise money privately for us for this thing um I just I think that's I think [5:47:49] there's mean that's how the school district solves some of their stuff with the work that given go and the Ed fund [5:47:57] does idea and they've gotten through their budget WS because of those [5:48:03] partners and we're just trying to do it all on our own and it might not just be ours to solve So to that point yeah [5:48:11] Denny metel has an idea and he's he's not reti H well he's retiring from the [5:48:16] crime fund so he could maybe do the park fund um and I have not been able to sit [5:48:23] down with him and with Perry and talk about the feasibility of this because my life has been a mess but [5:48:30] um he thinks that there are opportunities out there um and he he's [5:48:36] like we could do this this this this I mean he's just so energized by that so I think that's something that we as an [5:48:42] entity need to look at and like I said I just have not been able to uh have that [5:48:47] conversation there are potential Partners out there and bar and I got an example of it just recently as they've [5:48:54] been replacing the lighting down at Lewis Park uh the neighbors have been [5:48:59] concerned that the wooden Poes one of the wooden poles coming down had a nesting station on top of it for ospr [5:49:05] family and so we looked at trying to figure out [5:49:11] how to accommodate that and the the uh manufacturer of the new lighting system [5:49:17] said well you're I'm not going to give you warranty if you want an osprey nest on top of one of those [5:49:23] polls and so then the conversation came up about M PR wrote her a nice note [5:49:28] saying it was going to cost us $33,000 to put up a pole with an osprey nest on [5:49:34] the top of it we thought that would be end of it she writes back immediately she says I'll give you 25,000 wow you [5:49:42] are I don't know it still makes any sense but to that point I mean there are there are donors out there that we [5:49:48] haven't even thought about in fact the former mayor Fred Richards has told me for years in memory of his wife he's [5:49:55] wanted to do I think there used to be a pond in Arison Acres below the building [5:50:02] down in that low spot down there he wants to he he would give the money to create a feature on there but we we [5:50:09] haven't drilled down on some of these things well and that's what that's I mean the naming option is is part of [5:50:15] that package right that that's that's about donations and that's about that and and you know has a friends of the [5:50:22] Arts and I think that's the cautionary tale is um the the offer for the [5:50:28] donation didn't cover the full cost no and it also then puts us on the hook [5:50:33] for 15 years from now we have a poll that would be need to be replaced [5:50:40] and as we explained to the resident there is zero guarantee that that OS would relocate like so even for $25,000 [5:50:47] we cannot guarantee you that that OS will go back to that pole and I think that's kind of the cautionary tale of [5:50:54] donations is they are great to receive but um are they of a priority or are [5:50:59] they targeted and I think that's the the cautionary point it's it's always a very Fen Prospect gesture and we've had a ton [5:51:05] of those over the last several years you think about um py at the golf course and [5:51:10] um General Chad um at senteno l park right there's a number of those [5:51:17] but yes sometimes they're what about that I spend the rest of my life in the nonprofit world and you know never say [5:51:24] yes to a large grant that you it's somebody else's idea right I [5:51:29] mean got there are opportunities but they have to be cautious I think we are [5:51:35] coming up toward the end end Scott have you gotten everything you needed I think [5:51:40] so I think so we we still have the tour after this [5:51:47] which I think is again like really positive note to try to end on like we're doing a lot and some of these [5:51:53] things are really big Investments that are once in generational the stuff that you guys got the sales tax money for [5:51:59] that we're doing at the arena I don't want you know it feels a little bit negative when you look at the externalities list but I don't want to [5:52:05] end on a negative note because I actually think that the services we're providing to the community do make a [5:52:10] difference and they are important and the stuff that we're talking about doing are positive things that we're trying to [5:52:16] do to make the community better and so I we want to end on a a happy note by getting to see fire station number two [5:52:23] come to start to come to fruition so hope you all join us I just want to say I think the entire meeting was a [5:52:32] great meeting I'm actually leaving on a happy note [5:52:38] I'm going to be on a even happier note to see the fire station uh but I think [5:52:43] you guys have done a really good job of Y listening and um saying what you [5:52:52] need and presenting information that I think will get us where we need to go [5:52:59] and the way I think about the externalities piece like it is such a positive thing for us to be sending in [5:53:07] 2025 and have a list of that level [5:53:12] specificity of challenges for our city that we can start leaning into that's a [5:53:19] that's a really positive thing so kudos to you guys thank you thank you for [5:53:25] spending today with us we really appreciate it and we've got some we've got some homework we'll be back to you [5:53:32] appreciate that very much any other I want to say thank you to all hard work that everybody's been doing on this and [5:53:38] I I appreciate the comprehensive nature of it I know it's hard it's excruciating [5:53:44] into about making cuts um and and I want and you did that in 2025 do 2026 I want [5:53:53] honor I leaned over to Jennifer early in this process I said geez I hate this budget [5:53:59] work and just has like she said just tearing [5:54:06] off the Band-Aid you know it's not it's not any fun but you guys did a great job of prepping us uh and giving us some [5:54:13] ideas to work from uh as we go about this process of trying to figure out how to deliver [5:54:19] continue to deliver high quality services at the best possible In fairness I told them we all [5:54:25] hate it too well than thank you all for coming to play and good work today