[0:00] can start right well good evening everybody it is a city council work session for the city of udina uh really [0:07] great topic tonight the 2024 small area plan work is being done over at Lincoln and londonairy it is Tuesday November 19 [0:14] 2024 5:30 p.m. uh we're in the community room at City Hall and I'm going to call [0:20] the meeting to order and I'm going to ask Sharon Allison our clerk to call the role for the council and then we'll do introductions council member avue here [0:27] council member Jackson here council member here council member rer here mayor hubman here uh no let's go around room [0:35] blue want you to start out and we'll go around the table introduce yourself please uh Lou Miranda chair of the or [0:43] vice chair of the Planning Commission and chair of the Lincoln lary commission thanks ran day Planning Commission [0:48] member of the work group Steve Brown member of the work group Russ Rubin [0:55] member of the work group ex-chair of the arts and culture commission Nancy vanis [1:00] member of the work group Julie Risser councel carine Jackson councel Jim hin [1:05] councel James Pierce councel kid agu Council Ari lens assistant city manager [1:11] Zach lockr men collaborative and we're the consultant on the Lincoln London J [1:16] planel commission and Sharon Allison City [1:23] cler Stephanie Hockinson planning cison Ms Comm coordinator [1:30] director so Johnson City management fellow M collative uh Perry V Parks and [1:36] Recreation director R get subed I was AR [1:42] culture and I'm Bill newor economic development manager CH city [1:48] engineer oh I M calling citizen very good um so Lou I'll turn it [1:57] back over to you and let you introduce the topic and and talk about what that's being done sure so [2:05] um this is the Lincoln lary small area plan so this is um the newest plan that [2:10] we have for uh the areas in the city that um uh require a plan for future um [2:18] development um uh Zach has slides going through a lot of the the history of what's going [2:25] on here so I just wanted to uh start by um a quick recap of what happened last [2:32] time so we were here August 7th and uh Zach had a presentation and he had six [2:38] minutes for that and then after that the uh mayor asked me for 30 seconds of [2:43] comment so that's probably why we want to start right away so luckily I think we have this entire project for ourselves today so [2:52] um I'll let Zach describe where we are in the process but I'd like to add something to think about during this [2:57] presentation so both the University Minnesota student cap Zone project which was presented earlier this year as well [3:04] as our preliminarily approved areas of potential change by the Planning Commission have said that a general up [3:10] zoning of single family home areas is not a good idea in the city of Adina but that is wholly dependent on [3:16] the city council allowing greater density in our existing commercial nodes and areas identified in both of those [3:22] reports so obviously Lincoln and London are is one of those areas and so it's important that we what I've been pushing [3:29] for in our meetings is um making sure that we're following policies that the [3:34] city council has adopted um so you have policies like uh Equity plan and um [3:41] climate action plan and so um I've been pushing pretty hard to make sure that we're meeting all those goals so the [3:48] goal of this committee has been to to listen to the neighbors listen to [3:54] Residents um listen to business owners in the area um and [4:00] apply that along with the knowledge of the three Commissioners on the project who have knowledge of land use [4:06] development in the city and come up with a plan that uh will work for everybody so that's basically where we are Z take [4:14] thank you Lou um I before I even start I want to say that one of the most important words that you will see on [4:19] everything that we show today is draft um where we are in the process right now and I'll talk a little bit more about [4:26] this is that we are we we've done a quite a good deal of work we are I think [4:32] very close to a set of strategies that Mak sense with the feedback that we've [4:38] gotten from the public with our working group with um the research that we've done with our analysis of the market and [4:44] the opportunities that come along with that um that said I think there's still a lot of room for improvements tweaks [4:51] new ideas to come in um we've actually asked our working group to be present as a part of this process today um because [4:58] we have a meeting on Thursday we are going to be taking what we hear from you as a council and really working on [5:04] making um what are hopefully some final decisions around what really moves towards being in a final draft that we [5:11] then present back to the community at the beginning of December so um this is a very important meeting this is really [5:17] one of our key times that we get to really dig in with this material with you all um and so we're really excited [5:24] to hear from you um about the directions that we've taken um but as I've said [5:29] nothing that we are showing is immutable um we have opportunities to really think about [5:35] how as as Lou has put it we make sure that we're meeting all of the city's policies that we are reflecting the [5:41] community's desires and that um we have a plan that's actionable in the long term as well so that's really our goal [5:50] tonight so um just to remind you um we have gone through we have a essentially [5:55] a three-phase process the first phase um which began in May um was really about looking at existing conditions asking [6:02] the community what they love about the place what they think could change what new opportunities they see in the area [6:08] um in July and September we started to provide some new strategies that we thought would actually meet um some of [6:14] the the types of recommendations that people wanted to see had some public engagement in order to really begin to [6:21] vet some of that and get some additional feedback and now we've really been working towards what does the actual [6:27] action plan look like providing that documentation and then the hope is that we're moving towards adoption um early [6:34] in the new year um as a part of our community engagement we've had two phases already [6:41] um it's included eight working group meetings we've had two public houses at different components of um the um [6:48] different phases of the project um online engagement um any question that we were asking in person we tried to [6:54] make it also available online so that we could get feedback there um we've done [6:59] on uh popup meetings so there were a few groups identified that we didn't feel really turned out to some of the first [7:06] engagements so we went to some additional locations where um specifically families um Shoppers in the [7:12] area and renters actually congregate in the area and then through actually the [7:17] work of the working group especially um these guys went out really door Todo and helped us do a business and land owner [7:24] survey so we've talked to almost everybody um I think there's maybe a few folks that we we didn't quite get but a [7:31] very very strong response R he smiling there was there was a few we didn't get but we got a lot of [7:39] them so um we just want to um give a couple of just quick feedback slides [7:45] about some of the things that we heard from the public um as we went out um you [7:51] know some of the kind of visioning things um we heard across a lot of different types of activities that um [7:57] the natural setting the trail the were all really key assets for this area [8:02] something that people really really liked um we you know heard quite a bit [8:08] as well about and it's on my next slide um people really like The Londoner shops [8:16] um they hope for at least some additional restaurant and retail in some of this space um additional Community [8:23] spaces um potential for more housing also being um in you know kind of the [8:28] high end of what we were hearing from folks that they were excited about trying to see so after that first phase [8:35] of Engagement um and this is part that we we'd shown to you already but we took all of the responses that we heard in [8:42] that first phase and really came up with these six priorities that we heard from the community they really wanted to have [8:48] us focus on so character of Housing and Development Economic Development local business Community Gathering spaces [8:54] green spaces and environmental stewardship getting around safely and then Community involvement and Visionary plan planning we also worked with the [9:01] working group to establish a vision statement um and I'm just going to read the whole thing um in 2040 the Lincoln [9:08] londonairy area will be a welcoming gateway to Western Edina there will be shops restaurants homes and jobs all in [9:14] a natural setting along 9M Creek it will be thoughtfully and sustainably designed blending eco-friendly amenities with [9:20] natural beauty the area will be easy to get to and to move around in with bike lanes and trails walking paths bus stops [9:28] and carefully integrated Park the Lincoln London are area will be a great place to live work and gather [9:34] fostering community and encouraging people to use trails and Gathering spaces and beyond that we also took each [9:40] of those priorities and we we created a statement for what we were trying to achieve with each one of them so um with [9:47] regards to development and character promoting a balanced approach to housing that respects Community needs and preferences with regards to the economic [9:54] development in businesses encourage a diverse array of local businesses that support the community's needs um with [9:59] regard to Gathering spaces create vibrant spaces that encourage and Foster community and [10:05] inclusivity um with the regard to the natural environment preserve and enhance the natural environment prioritizing [10:11] sustainability and outdoor activities um getting around safely ensure safe accessible and efficient movement and [10:16] then finally in the um Community engagement and Visionary thinking Foster a Forward Thinking approach to [10:22] development that involves the community so I I take a moment to read those all out loud because when we're talking [10:29] about the recommendations that I'm start about to lay out before you have these in your mind these are the things that [10:34] we're trying to meet um and the things that we're trying to achieve so ultimately one of our tests is we have [10:39] to go to the end of the the process and what would this look like in 20 years and is what we've recommended going to [10:46] actually achieve that Vision um that has been put forward um we as I said we did do both [10:52] online and inperson engagement in the online engagement we were actually able to ask people where they were coming [10:58] from um we had a little bit of a map so just so you know I I think this is probably reflective of the inperson [11:05] engagement as well though we didn't map it in exactly the same way but you can see there's a strong concentration um [11:11] around um Parkwood NES and bresan park um being the closest two neighborhoods but we have received feedback from [11:16] really all around um the um all around the the city and you know I think the [11:23] the few folks that are probably that you see outside of the city um likely business owners or other things we asked [11:30] the specific question where do you live um so um we had some some folks that were coming from from outside there [11:37] too so um in the second phase we we did want to kind of check in to on just how [11:45] people prioritized these um Community priorities and we asked it both online [11:50] and in person we had to ask them slightly different on the online you could rank them one through five on the in person you were voting for the ones [11:57] you liked the most so it's we have you can't it's hard to con connect them because the question was asked slightly [12:03] separately however um you'll see that um the green space as an environmental stewardship was a consistent winner and [12:10] it was consistent winner by quite a great deal and everything um that we saw [12:15] um the big difference is you see that that economic development in business and the getting around safely um [12:22] flip-flopped quite a bit in um the online versus the inperson um I know for [12:28] a fact in the inperson and we did have several business owners and land owners actually in the group as well so that [12:33] may be what is part of the reason that the the economic development Rose a little bit higher in that um [12:40] response now we've already also mentioned to you the issue of the constraints and sewage capacity um this [12:47] has been something that was a um sort of pre-existing condition for this area and [12:52] is in fact actually U something that's much larger than this study area um it [12:59] contains actually you know close to a third of the city is is actually within [13:04] this this same area that has um some of these consu some of these um same constraints so um what we know now in [13:12] terms of the the existing situation um capacity is nearly fully utilized and um [13:19] even some of the uses that could be currently Allowed by zoning could potentially be denied permits if they're [13:24] taking on more capacity than some of the existing uses [13:29] so there's three ultimate you know opportunities here or options in terms of how this might move forward one is [13:37] you know shifting capacity on site um something goes away and something else comes in its place and it you know is a [13:43] more or less even tradeoff um there's this potential for connection into minat tanka and then upgrading the full kind [13:49] of area and as we brought up in the previous um time that we we presented with you as well um there's nothing that [13:58] we could propose within our small area that financially would create the tradeoff to [14:06] do the upgrades for this large area it's a question that needs to be addressed at a larger scale probably within the [14:13] city's next comp plan cycle to think about how that whole area moves forward and so the strategy that we've taken is [14:21] really trying to think about what recommendations can we do to in advance [14:27] of that this is recommend in terms of potentially some minor changes to land use establishing policy [14:33] and Regulatory framework so that in the long term we are seeing the type of Redevelopment we want should that be [14:39] resolved in favor of um actually allowing more capacity on site um [14:45] Mobility improvements um being a big one that we can obviously carry out um today [14:50] um and then um some of the beautification and Gathering space improvements um but in the longer term [14:58] for major changes in land use for major Redevelopment to happen on this site um [15:03] it is likely that that is going to have to be resolved first um and then we also do in our recommendations talk about [15:09] some potential changes to the circulation patterns within the area but that would only really be able to be [15:16] accomplished if we were to do some Redevelopment in the area um so [15:21] essentially we've sort of created a plan that is a little bit split in two that focuses on both the shortterm what can [15:28] we be doing over the next 5 or 10 years as well as if when this gets resolved what would [15:36] the capacity in the area be what would be some solutions that fit well um within that area um so I'm I think I'm [15:44] transitioning here to talk a little bit more about some of the plans and recommendations but I want to open it up to the working group and just make sure [15:49] I didn't miss anything or anything that you guys want to mention as well okay and any questions from you all [15:57] so far um one of the things that as I was going through this is um and you talked in [16:05] your opening a little bit about uh analysis of the market so I don't see in the value statement how things are going [16:12] to be paid for um and that's I think needs to be addressed um yeah I that's [16:18] definitely something we can take a note on I think you know the whether it's going to be City [16:24] financed or privately financed yeah so most [16:30] Redevelopment it it is a little hard to predict where the Market's going to be by the time that this is going to be [16:36] resolved but I think that what we have tried to do is create um Redevelopment [16:41] scenarios that would be able to be accomplished within generally market [16:47] conditions um so from the perspective of that that Redevelopment um idea [16:55] mostly seeing that however of course there are always questions that come up in that you know is affordability [17:02] something the city wants to bring in some additional funding to see XY or Z outcome or some of those sorts of things [17:08] so there would be opportunities within that um we will work some so for some of [17:15] the the more public realm improvements and some of those um we're we've had [17:21] some discussions with um folks like we I'll just jump ahead to a recommendation [17:28] you know this idea of how do we create a better connection directly from the existing trail to the new Opus train [17:36] station so we've had a discussion with the city of menaka they're like oh that sounds like something that we could be interested in as well that might be an [17:43] opportunity for some sort of joint Grant application or something like that um moving forward similarly you we've [17:49] talked with um Three Rivers Park District about what types of funding there might be so we will work to try [17:55] and identify some of those kind of key opportun unities um I would say in [18:01] general the road reconstruction and intersection Improvement type stuff [18:07] would probably be more likely General funds unless there is um you know there [18:13] is sometimes pedestrian Improvement fundings or other thing like that that come through met Council um our entire [18:20] federal DOT is also going to be changing in the next couple months so that even is hard for us to identify for sure what [18:25] the grant opportunities are going to be but we'll do our best to try and lay out some of what those options might be for [18:31] some of those improvements and I would take it up a higher level and just have the values that the group um reflect the [18:40] values of the group and it maybe you seek grant opportunities as the number one financing value but I would like to [18:47] have just sort of a feedback of people who've been deep um into this how they [18:52] Envision it actually happening whether it's public private partnership grants but just a statement somewhere in the [18:58] thing about uh money I would say yeah Mar please jump in and there was a lot of talk about the community engagement [19:04] space you know that kids hang out on the grass in the cor you know it's just not [19:11] and I don't think you to think about anything large but I think that piece of it was really up the neighborhood and [19:17] yeah figuring out a way to kind of and I was going to say too I think like the most direct feedback that I can think of [19:24] that we got from Community engagement and again I'm interested if you all remember anything else there was a pretty significant group [19:32] that wanted to make sure that we were thinking about uses that maximize tax [19:38] revenue that was I think the most consistent thing that we heard [19:44] specifically talking about any kind of Revenue or funding Direction um again [19:51] making sure that we're not creating additional tax burden on the neighborhoods around it with ideas and [19:58] things so that that was but we never asked a very specific question of you know like do you want us to spend the city money or [20:04] do you want us to go after grants my my typical I mean and this is my consultant opinion is like we should leverage the [20:11] city money towards bringing in as much outside funding as you can always for this type of work so just you know even [20:18] if it's just an appendix just any kind of discussion that you had I I think that would be in the future helpful for [20:24] us absolutely yeah there there will be within like the full report there will be an implementation chapter as well [20:30] that will dive into some of that in terms of what is a capital project what is a policy what you know what type of [20:38] funding might there need to be I just want to acknowledge I like that point um [20:44] I know there's a balance between when you're doing this work you don't want to be too constrained with what's in front [20:52] of us today um because then it might limit how creative you are and using the [20:58] space face so I I get that um but I do think it's wise to list that someplace [21:06] so that people know that we are looking through that lens just as you highlight [21:12] the fact that um we have a sewer capacity issue that has to be addressed so just kind of in those terms I I just [21:19] just think it's wise that we uh acknowledge that in some way but we don't want it to limit yeah U the [21:26] creativity from the team makes total sense um my question is um about goals [21:34] set by met Council and I know we as a city have already surpassed the amount [21:39] of luxury and market rate housing that we're supposed to produce by 2030 and I [21:45] think I asked about it about a year ago and I can't remember a staff I thought a [21:50] staff person said the idea is we'll draw people from outside of igina but it kind [21:55] of seems as if there's no real limit on market rate and luxury and I'm wondering [22:03] you know where do the goals established by the Met Council fit in with your analysis or are [22:11] they part of it at all they it's it's frankly not something that we've spent a lot of time okay on [22:19] um our analysis has been and and again this is all with the caveat that any [22:26] resolution on any of the sewage that would allow larger scale development to happen here [22:31] is probably at least 10 years out and markets change and so on but um the perspective has been more from a [22:37] perspective of what is a developer likely to do within these spaces um in [22:42] terms of um being able to do something that is financially feasible for them [22:48] that there's a market for um so you'll you'll know um for example in our long [22:54] term while we don't completely close off the idea that there could significant office presence here that is not [23:01] something that is currently being built significantly I think thinking of you [23:07] know the changing it so the goal is office residential or that's the guiding [23:12] um Vision often times results in just purely residental sure and then and it [23:18] just seems like we are losing so much diversity in terms of our land use to be so fascinating to have a map of what it [23:24] was 20 years ago versus what it is today sure but okay thank you yeah so if I may [23:29] yeah so the student Capstone project talked about how the uh city of Adina has to address both density of housing [23:37] as well as commercial districts so that people can live work and play um without having to drive everywhere so that that [23:44] is one thing that drives the desire for more density within the city it has nothing to do with the Met Council it's our own it's our own po City policies um [23:52] and then to um council member Jackson's comment um I was on the 44th [23:59] 44th in France small area plan and I don't remember us ever talking about how we're going to finance anything I mean [24:05] we you know the residents are are residents they're not planners they're not um you know we're looking for advice [24:13] on you know what are our goals not like how we're going to finance it that's a city council problem it's not really a [24:20] planning problem well there's a lot of public realm in [24:27] here and it just I don't there we're having that [24:33] conversation tonight actually about how we Finance the Southdale plan okay so [24:39] it's top of mind it was talked about in the Southdale small area plan in the [24:45] 44th in France it's quite a bit different from this space and what you've got here I see a lot of new [24:52] interior streets and spaces things on the you know putting the public space in [24:58] the corner of the children's lot I don't know who owns that so would we buy the land from children's and put that there [25:05] you know to me that really matters because I don't want to put something out in the public that is wonderful and [25:12] beautiful and can't be financed and we've come across that in the Grand View plan um people want a big public [25:19] building and the public work site and we can't afford that so I don't want dreams [25:24] to be set up so high that when implementation comes we have this huge crash of expectations so I want to have [25:32] you think about how would this be financed um even on a just a very cursory level because if we set our [25:39] dreams too high then we have huge Community blowback when we can't afford it but this is so beautiful why can't we [25:46] do this well because it's more expensive than we can pay for well if you look at I'm sorry if you look at the Southdale district and the development we've had [25:52] that area we have City we have private streets that are not turned over to the [25:57] city and it would cost nothing to turn them over to the city so again it's not an issue that the Planning Commission is [26:04] to deal with it's something that the city council needs to deal with well you're getting city council [26:10] feedback we have to pay for this and so I want I would like your opinion even if that's what you write that we look we [26:17] don't have the capacity to answer it I would like to hear your opinions on I think we can find a happy medium in that [26:23] I mean and you know some of the long-term improvements you're talking about like new road Network stuff [26:28] almost certainly that is in the long term would need to pursue some sort of Tiff strategy or something like that but [26:36] it is so long term that it was hard for us to Define that right now what we you know with relationship to that are [26:42] talking about is well what is the what do we need to put in a plan Andor in [26:47] some regulation in order to say we want those roads in the future and this is something that we should examine and [26:53] pursue when those projects come forward but the smaller scale scale like the you [26:59] know streetscape improvements and some of the trail improvements those are [27:04] things that I I think it makes sense not for us to fully price out that's not [27:10] something I think it's not at a level of detail for that but to be able to point to um you know the Watershed district [27:17] has this grant this Grant and this Grant and the you know X Y and Z be able to give a little bit of direction and [27:22] guidance on some of the opportunities there is something I think that we can do not not to belor the point but I I [27:30] again like this comment that member Jackson made you don't have to exhaust [27:36] all costs you're not saying um you need to figure out how to finance something [27:43] it's as simple as if there's an idea you can just quantify what you think the [27:48] relative yeah right by y a bunch of dollar signs or $2 signs versus four [27:55] just to give the order of magnitude yeah um and so shouldn't take a lot of effort to do that um and I just again I think [28:02] it's wise partially because of the point you made L earlier we didn't do that in [28:08] some other cases right it's just wise for us to I think to do that and it's [28:14] just feedback yep everybody I agree with you you're just [28:20] talking generically about what kind of Pies it could come from and we have had [28:25] some conversations about um um generic conversations about how to [28:32] you know what taxes come in from different kinds of development so there is some awareness of that within the [28:41] working group in the community and I would say that also as we've been exploring this this phase of the project [28:47] um we have also been getting feedback from various Partners around specific [28:53] costs that have shifted some of our thinking in how we think about long and short-term improvements you know for [28:58] example we um had a conversation with city engineer about mindat the sound walls and basically came to a decision [29:06] that in the short term when we're not seeing a lot of Redevelopment that's probably not going to be a cost that is [29:11] going to be worthwhile for the parcels that are there but we still want to acknowledge it in the long-term part of [29:17] the plan so that if Redevelopment were to happen that that conversation would re-engage and that could become a part [29:23] of of the discussion and similar discussions about you know what types of improvements we might want to make on [29:29] the bridge itself if we do want to pursue this Trail Direction into um into minona and what improvements have [29:36] already been made there and how we work within the investment that's already been spent so we we are trying to be um [29:43] thoughtful about those sorts of items um and not to you know go against [29:50] anything that somebody has said but we could actually you know as city council [29:55] and also you know the Planning Commission deals with with land use and you know you look at Children's you see [30:01] all that green space I mean just thinking about how do we protect that it doesn't necessarily have to be City [30:08] expense and turning it into a park it can be actually doing a PUD where you actually increase the amount of Green [30:14] Space instead of granted massive setback variances and diminished it yep so that [30:21] could be part of the conversation as well let me let me start to jump in a little bit um to talk a little bit more [30:28] about some of the um actual recommendations and we have this map on the table hopefully you can all see it [30:33] okay I'll be kind of pointing out some things there in relationship to some of the things um that we talk about as well [30:39] on our computers too oh perfect that's great you can zoom in and zoom around a little bit so um the first kind of set [30:45] of recommendations that we talk about are are really um character of Housing [30:50] and Development and these are really policy directions these are thinking in [30:56] the long term about how we want see development happen within this area what [31:01] types of Standards do we want to put to it and similar to what you guys have done with your design standards for [31:07] Southdale the overwhelming kind of response that we've heard from the community is the idea of this as a kind [31:15] of e district and really trying to think about the way that the the wetlands the [31:22] creek um planting the tree canopy all of it starts to really connect um and we [31:31] even in in some of our engagement asked about we showed pictures of different types of development and we even heard [31:36] in terms of development people really want to see a lot of use of natural materials they want Stone and wood they [31:41] want to see you know buildings kind of fitting within that as well so when we talk about establishing design standards [31:48] what we've done is we go to your existing regulations look at all of the different things that you're regulating [31:54] and try and make some decisions about okay well if we were going to kind of super hone in on that on that [32:01] Eco District idea what were some of the things that we would change so um the [32:06] example that you'll see in the long term what we've done is we've created kind of a sample set of design guidelines and we [32:13] have um actually applied that to different Parcels so um some of the things that we looked at were increasing [32:21] the um required uh or am I going to say this wrong decrease [32:27] in in the amount of permeable surface that is allowed so increasing the amount of green area that has to be within any [32:35] lot increasing requirements around some of the tree canopy um rules around how [32:41] parking lots are laid out thinking about the ways that we can create shadier walkways within the parking lots um [32:48] looking at some things and and again these are just things that we got some feedback on um so I'm concerned about [32:55] the bulkiness of some of the buildings so not necess necessarily even that they're dense but just that they are very long and very large and so we [33:02] looked at some examples from um like St Louis Park has created within their regulations just things can't you can't [33:10] have a wall that is longer than 130 ft so what is that start to look like when we start to apply that in different [33:16] areas um and then also looking at what are some of the additional storm water [33:22] things that we can add in terms of additional requirements um one of the things that we could even think about [33:28] within this um there is a um system called sustainable sites that is [33:34] essentially um it's like lead is for buildings but it's for Landscapes so [33:39] actually thinking about whether or not there's some of these requirements that we want to put on new development to meet some of those types of goals um and [33:47] moving things forward so all things that you guys have quite a few years to actually yet established and into the [33:54] code before large scale Redevelopment starts happening in advance those areas so just to technically Zach yeah these [34:01] recommendations is that you said you had some sample guidelines that you're sort of that's right we will where will that [34:07] where will we that will all live in in the report um in the final report but the long-term recommendations which we [34:15] will we will jump to in a minute what we've tried to do is actually um use the [34:21] our guidelines in laying out how would this look if Redevelopment happened using these guidelines so um just as a [34:29] quick example you can really see on the Children's Campus which is already zoned [34:35] um mixed use so they already are entitled to that scale um we've looked [34:41] at how do you arrange buildings so that you don't have you can see that those buildings are um it's as many units as [34:48] you have in the loaden but they're a little bit smaller buildings they're a little less bulky um they're arranged in [34:54] a way that the um more open and green space around it and then one of the [35:00] things that we actually thought was really important in that specific case was there's an existing parking garage that's already been built one of the [35:06] least sustainable things you can do is knock down a parking garage so we just wrap new new residential around that parking garage and let that serve as [35:12] parking for the whole area so the vision for children's is for it to go purely [35:18] residential it the way that we've drawn it it would probably be a mixed [35:24] residential again assuming that there is an office or retail um Market that that [35:30] makes sense at the time that that would get rebuilt um but given their existing [35:36] zoning and the kind of General market conditions we think that that's probably the most likely way that they would [35:41] choose to [35:46] redevelop I wondered what that building was so that that's residential wrapped around wrapped around the existing [35:52] parking garage yeah that's very clever yeah um our in in our research and and [36:00] talking to business owners I think we were hearing that the children's is right now what what percent utilized you [36:05] remember off the top of your head what percent utilize like how many people are actually in the children's [36:11] building 10 to 15% yeah um plus it's not owned by [36:17] children's it's not it's owned by Opus Corporation oh interesting piece of lamp so so that's that's what we're talking [36:23] about when we talk about um some of those design guidelines it's how do you start to set up the rules to get outcomes that that are really appealing [36:31] to the types of of Redevelopment that we're hoping to see um keeping going on [36:36] some of the short-term recommendations um the two Parcels that are north of [36:44] um north of Lincoln Drive uh I'm sorry north of London Dairy apologies um [36:51] they've sort of been identified as the two um one one that is actively being marketed and one that also [36:58] there's some potential for some Redevelopment or sale at some point in the future um there's a desire to do [37:05] that sooner rather than later on the part of the property owner so what we've tried to do is kind of look like look at [37:11] what fits within the community's desires that could also fit within the existing sewage capacity the the answer that has [37:18] come forward kind of the strongest within that um would be something akin [37:24] to um the London Dairy shops on the other side of stre so small kind of neighborhood serving retail um being [37:31] kind of a key opportunity um I think if it were possible um and and again this [37:38] is you know kind of what the market is out there for small grocery is also I think something that's been highly desirable by um the community but [37:45] finding the right type of of thing there um one thing that we have talked about I guess there has been at least some [37:51] interest in potentially doing a gas station there um I think we think from the perspective of the working group [37:56] that that's probably not quite the best use of that particular site um so would rather move towards something that is a [38:03] little more um kind of retail oriented for for that type of Redevelopment and [38:08] we think you know the devil's in the details in terms of whether that could fit in the sewage capacity or not but it [38:14] is a use that is likely to so the proposal there would be to take those two parcels and and go ahead and uh work [38:20] to rezone them to something that kind of fits within that long-term Vision as well as would allow some of those owners [38:27] to be able to kind of move move on from those properties in the shorter term as well so oh go uh so for that site is [38:36] there capacity from a sewer perspective if it were relatively this scale or the [38:41] same scale as we think so yeah they also have something like one layer or two layers of housing above it probably not [38:49] they they have well and again this is Devil's in the details they have they have eight [38:54] toilets in there so that's kind of what we're trying to you know like what is what does that [39:01] look like um like a to come yeah [39:06] something with a lot of water use so it would really have to be dependent on what the proposed use was yeah even if [39:13] it now in the long term could is there potential [39:18] to add housing above or other things you know when that gets resolved redevelop [39:23] again in another 15 or 20 years I think like the average age of a building is something like 17 years in general so [39:29] it's not out of the question that you could see another round of Redevelopment at some point in the future there as well um but in in the short term it's [39:36] it's going to have to be something that's relatively low intensity um on on [39:42] a site like that from from what we understand in in some of the final [39:48] documentation like I like the exchange you just had because we often times will [39:53] talk in terms of it has to be light or we can't do anything major but to just [39:59] say there's eight toilets there now so if we whatever we put there has to be [40:05] able to be serviced by 8 to 10 toilets or something like that just helps I [40:10] think ground people in the reality of the issue well and even the reality is [40:16] something something that used a lot of servers and needed a lot of cooling capacity that might not work you know like so there's there's a variety of of [40:23] elements that get you know pretty sticky depending on the specific needs but I I think that's yeah that that's a kind of [40:30] a pretty straightforward way to put it what you're saying just provide that cont provide a little some examples like [40:36] I like the brewery one as well so in here you've got um these two [40:44] intersections marked for change I know when we looked at the apartments there there was a lot of concern about that [40:50] being a quasi blind driveway in and out of there how much did the working group [40:56] talk about that because if that's a retail area which I I strongly agree with that but you're going to have a lot [41:02] of cars coming and going how did you square that Circle it it's probably going to have to maintain the driveway [41:08] where it currently is rather than trying to shift to somewhere else on the site the grades are pretty bad and then we're also introducing a new Trail connection [41:15] so you know we don't want a lot of driveways and curb Cuts crossing a trail connection so most likely it's people [41:22] having to kind of turn in and then and then turn in um if if we are d it within [41:27] the established design guidelines too the I think the goal would be to have at [41:33] least some you know a little better relationship to the street in terms of [41:38] people being able to walk up or get to some of those spaces from the trail and improving some of that as well but you [41:44] know in general what we've tried to set up is keeping parking back towards the highway further away from the [41:50] neighborhood as well um so probably you're maintaining that same existing driveway location and that's actually a [41:56] shared driveway between the two Parcels I move to regardless I was [42:04] thinking about L's comment about working on 44th in France small area plan and [42:10] having observed a few of those sessions and Mary brother you may have been involved in that too I just as a [42:16] resident yeah yeah but it was a combination of as you met in the church [42:21] basement uh you were working together neighbors and planning Commissioners to [42:26] come up with plan I'm just wondering on the short-term recommendations and the long-term [42:32] recommendations are are they kind of a true reflection of of that of that collaborative sort of work or does this [42:40] reflect more of the some of the pressures or sensitivities you might have felt from [42:47] from the broader neighborhood as opposed to what you might have thought of yourself as a working [42:54] group we have one more public Workshop coming up and um I thought along those [43:00] same lines I really enjoyed it when we we've had one where we had about half an [43:08] hour to kind of talk about pieces in there um but I think it's a great way to [43:14] get byy in from the neighborhood so it'd be great if you know presenting some of the stuff and getting some more detailed [43:20] feedback from the neighborhood about what they want to see yeah so um yeah this draft was just [43:28] created so the the full uh committee has not me to discuss it yet [43:35] so okay I do you mind speaking specifically [43:41] to the question about trying to balance what we're hearing from the [43:47] community and you know all of the policy because I know this has been a concern of yours as well is just how do we how [43:54] do we find the right balance between some of the layers of community feedback we hear as well as one thing policies [44:02] and so on sure I'll remind you that the uh and maybe the council I don't know if the council knew this or not but uh on [44:09] our first or second actually our first two meetings we had uh two people from [44:14] the city MJ and uh sorry I can't remember her name who's in charge of uh [44:21] uh sustainability he Merc yeah thank you um came and gave us one time ahe half hour [44:27] presentation and then a one-hour presentation about sustainability and equity and how we should be dealing with [44:34] that with the city right you guys remember those those two episodes so we've had the the the committee as a [44:41] whole has had training from the city on what those issues are so we've discussed that you know that was the very [44:47] beginning so but again we just got this plan so I'm expecting on Thursday is when we're really going to have that [44:54] conversation about what you know what those balances are and how do we balance that because you know no [45:01] one's going to be happy with everything right so and that's what these these committees are all about yeah thank you [45:10] but I think if we you if we have a draft and we've got some idea if we can kind of give that not just to the working [45:16] group but the broader Community because December 2nd is our next public right because when they when they see [45:21] something they react to it so let's put it out there so they can come and talk to us about it cuz I think I think we'd [45:28] get a lot of interaction yeah I mean it seems to meing there's some elements of this that are [45:33] really uh grounded in um that concept winner you were talking [45:41] about from the workshop Green Space is an environmental stewardship as sort of the Lynch pin of doing everything over [45:47] there and it it when you're over there and you're walking around you can see [45:53] the nature but it isn't integrated with anything yep uh you know it feels like [45:59] it there's a disconnect there but but that it could be and everybody's recognizing that it seems to me y that [46:04] there's there's a there's a natural world here that we're not even close to taking advantage of yeah I think that's [46:10] absolutely in terms of integrating that into whatever is there yeah Y and I I think it really reflects uh you know [46:16] this was mostly built in the 60s and 70s um I think at that time the creek was [46:21] maybe thought of a little as a drainage ditch he kind of had to hide a little bit you know was something that we were [46:27] trying to figure out how to develop around rather than something that we were seeing as a key asset and the investment that's already been made in [46:33] the trails and things there have really started to bring that forward as well as the value that it provides to the residents right around there so yeah [46:40] yeah so that's actually a good point because the um before the 9M Creek Trail was put in I mean mayor huband I know [46:47] you around for this um you know there was a lot of resistance from residents um especially those who lived along it [46:53] that this Trail was going to go through their backyard right so it seemed like you know infrastructure was being [46:58] imposed on people that it was going to make the the the very Natural Area artificial and dense and everything and [47:05] it didn't it did the exact opposite I mean it's it's the Jewel of the neighborhood now right so some sometimes [47:10] and that's part of our job is to help explain to Residents and to each other that you know sometimes you have to [47:16] build a little infrastructure to make it better for everybody and makes it better for the community [47:22] yeah okay Zach is about yeah is about to get into this some of the ideas we brought [47:28] up between the natur um the natural stuff and the area are kind of um I [47:35] don't want to say small there are like three scales of ideas um like easy to [47:40] implement ideas medium ideas and then bigger ideas and so they're very there's [47:46] some that are very accessible and I think and easy to do um because it is such [47:51] a a personal space your kind of neighborhood space yeah so I'm I'll keep [47:58] moving a little bit here the this next recommendation and this is again just in the short term recognizing the the types [48:04] of development that are there looking at ways to improve some of the outdoor spaces and look of some of the industrial spaces in the short term this [48:11] could be um you know stuff like we have some big walls facing the street maybe they an opportunity for some artwork or [48:16] something like that um every single one of these buildings has um old picnic [48:22] tables pulled up into the medians underneath trees where people go out to smoke or um eat lunch and in the long [48:29] term we can actually put in the design guidelines if you're going to build an office building you need to have this much outdoor seating space that you have [48:37] a space for that in the short term um this would have to be something that would likely have to be incentivized [48:43] with um the um the local business owners but seeing if there's some opportunities to just low investment make some of [48:51] those spaces a little bit nicer for the people that are using them currently type of improve [48:57] movements um this probably gets oh sorry go ahead real briefly we have a tree [49:03] ordinance and when somebody cuts down a tree they have to replant it would be nice to make this an opportunity of a [49:10] place where people could plant oh interesting under that so just throw that idea yeah we we do have a we do [49:17] have something talking about tree canopy but that's an interesting um opportunity and we do again within those guidelines [49:23] that we would be proposing we would be requiring a more significant investment [49:28] in trees with new Redevelopment within the area as well [49:34] um establishing smaller rest stops or gathering spaces is something that came up um just really amenitized the trail [49:42] that people like um this is something we've talked to um the um the three Riv [49:49] Park District about you know these types of small investments in benches or other things like that again not super [49:54] expensive but just making the spaces is a little bit nicer so we identify a couple of locations um that we feel are [50:01] are good locations for those um I don't know if you remember from our original research we actually took all the Strava [50:07] data and we had these cow pths you know the places people are already Crossing and sitting and those sorts of things so [50:12] identifying a couple of those spaces that people already like um that might be opportunities and I will add to that [50:18] meeting with Three Rivers they were really open to you know allowing for [50:24] that and they were very clear about sort of the sign standards that they have and you know instead of calling it a trail [50:30] head calling it a rest stop and that kind of stuff so it was really helpful meeting with them to get S of guidance there and and this I mean this was [50:36] feedback from the working group as well originally we did talk about you know maybe a larger type of trail head type [50:42] thing with some parking but the feedback was that you know I this is a better to be kept a little more local in its scale [50:50] um as well so also looking again at just some smaller um spaces maybe just a bench or a um a [50:59] um waste basket those sorts of things and the park district does have um [51:04] standards for this sort of thing so the this is actually something where costing is actually pretty easy um I was [51:11] actually wondering with regards to this one if this could be something where you might even be able to do like adop a bench type stuff or things like that and [51:17] actually get community to to invest in them um as well um we talk about [51:24] establishing one slightly larger um community space but still you know at a scale that you know it's probably a [51:30] couple of picnic tables some signage with maps those sorts of things the [51:35] location that that we identified um here at the corner this is on the um property [51:42] uh of children so it's Opus actually owns it it would require acquiring some [51:48] land or an easement from them in order to do something like this the reasoning [51:54] behind this particular location it is kind the intersection of where the trail turns so there's a lot of folks [52:00] congregating there there's existing signage there and then just observationally we've also seen a lot of [52:06] people um at the other side going up getting their coffee and then just coming down and sitting in the grass [52:13] space there and having conversations as well so because of the grade changes [52:18] having it on the other side of the street was a little more difficult but we thought if it's still kind of right here it still potentially kind of draws [52:24] to folks that are using the space in some of that way as well so this is the one item that probably is it's a little [52:30] bit bigger investment in terms of the parks in open space [52:36] component um and then we talk about public art as well and and you know came up a few times this is the Gateway IND [52:42] dinos is you're you know you're you're coming in for the first time so thinking about what could be done in what sort of [52:47] spaces um around public art as well um we talk about and and again this [52:56] is one it's it's sort of split into both the longterm and the short term in the long term we want to make sure that [53:01] we've got you know top of the line environmental stewardship low impact development and storm water management [53:07] required of new development that's happening in here in the shorter term we also have a number of spaces where the [53:16] existing parking lots that are probably 30 to 40 years old are tilted to drain [53:21] down into these Wetlands so looking at finding some funding to do some smaller [53:27] scale improvements working with those Property Owners to improve the storm [53:32] water connections along the sides of the parking lots in the specifically um the [53:38] the areas that are are really the most sensitive around those Wetlands um we also we did some kind of polling of the [53:45] community around what types of treatments they wanted to see and one of the things that that people said is they [53:50] really wanted to see a little more naturalized spaces and a little less mowing so there are a few areas in here [53:56] again private property though where there's a lot of just mowing Turf going on um this would probably be something [54:03] again we'd have to work with a land owner we probably have to incentivize to be able to do this but asking people to [54:09] move towards kind of more natural Land Management you know tying in the spaces [54:15] around some of these buildings more with the natural environment that's around it um as well um th this is kind of one of [54:23] the you know Pie in the Sky thing but as we mentioned um children's is not using [54:29] their parking at all for the amount of people they have so you can actually see on the [54:34] short term we've actually like removed one of their large parking lots right next to the um right next to the Wetland [54:42] there removing a parking lot is not a cheap thing it's not something they're going to do voluntarily but that's a [54:48] really big possible example of we're not using this it's right next to the Wetland maybe there's something better [54:55] that we could do were established within some of that space even in the short term to reiterate it's Opus that owns it [55:01] it's Opus that owns it yeah but it's the yeah the children's is the Les lesie Ley [55:08] leie I was just going to add the um Minnesota Realtor Association does have a cre yes they they have a beautiful um [55:17] natural landscape that they put in um and they have a lot of educational signage around it as well so that's a [55:23] really good example of what we could see more of of that type of recommendation we got a grant to do that work so y y [55:31] and and that is a good point again there there are environmental grants that can [55:36] do you know so there are opportunities for some of those sorts of things um and then we also talk about increasing [55:42] increasing the tree canopy um you know a long Lincoln Drive um at the back of the [55:49] properties closest to the highway there's a lot of opportunities there and there's quite a few other opportunities [55:55] where there might be some space where um again historically some of this was Wetland so the trees aren't kind of the [56:02] natural thing that wants to be there um other areas were a little more Upland and and are places where we might be [56:07] able to make some investment in just additional tree planting and again working towards that long-term goal of how the ecod district kind of feels in [56:14] that area just thought something I wanted to ask Lou again Lou can you remember when 44th in [56:21] France small area plan study work was done very whether may remember this to [56:28] was we had we had the old uh dry cleaner to work around and and then did we did [56:34] we finish that plan before the laurant was Ted car bought that property and [56:41] built the lauran yeah was that something that was ongoing at the same time I can't remember he was going to be on the [56:47] working group he was kicked off the working group realize there's a conflict he he [56:53] he right and and so um uh I was one of I don't know how many [56:59] people who recommended that the city council actually put a moratorium on development until the the uh plan was [57:07] finished and the city did that and so he didn't start building until we finished having the discussion okay I I only [57:13] asked that question because I think about it in the context of that piece of property that was proposed for [57:19] redevelopment by solhem that has limited sewer capacity that took care of that [57:24] issue around the conversation potentially 80 units of affordable housing but those people that own it is [57:31] that where the the gas station idea has surfaced is that they they've had multiple suitors on that site for for [57:37] potential purchase they they they they are hoping to retire and and sell off [57:43] that parcel as as soon as they can and they I I know they are watching this process very closely and I think having [57:49] some discussions with economic development and other um folks around some of that as well in terms of in [57:56] development um we didn't have a fully funded multi-unit affordable housing [58:02] project at 44th in France so it was a different it was it a different situation I remember that [58:10] um yeah I'm just warning about those commercial interests that those people have that want to [58:16] retire they think about a g they think about a gas station uh I'm assuming it would have no [58:22] car wash to be able it would not have a car it wouldn't be able to they they they did say you know it's it's it's the [58:29] the vendor that is interested was one of those ones that has um a little bit larger convenience store [58:37] kind of with it so there potential for some food or other options as well but [58:43] um you know the thing with a gas station is once you have a gas station it's the land is kind of contaminated [58:50] you know it's just I I think it seems like there are other suitors that hopefully we can [58:56] encourage them to move towards um and and in thinking about what what types of [59:02] zoning categories or land use would want to towards I'm sure they have interest too absolutely strong economic interest [59:07] yeah absolutely yeah point I was getting to was I suppose if push came to shove you could [59:13] figure out a way to make a gas station well and I think if came to shove way where there were Green Space and [59:19] environmental stewardship issues that were attached to you certainly could and you know they nothing is stopping them [59:26] from applying for a variance or a rezoning to be able to do that as well [59:31] and then that would have to be something that you would all have to consider with regards to everything that you know [59:38] right so just like any other property um would as well um so [59:44] yeah um I already talked a little bit about you know the the ecological standards um we heard quite a bit about [59:53] a continued desire to ensure that we are not as to the extent possible generating a [59:59] ton of extra traffic but even within that that we're really working to improve the intersection safety and and [1:00:06] really ensure that we're we're trying to kind of keep major traffic from moving into the neighborhood so um we have a [1:00:13] few different intersection Improvement opportunities um one of them being at [1:00:19] the London Dairy shops and just trying to think about how we kind of slow down and clarify folks that are coming around [1:00:24] that curve right where there's pedestrians Crossing at the um Lincoln Drive and londondary intersection we [1:00:30] would suggest either doing raised crosswalks or a full table so this is [1:00:35] you know the situation where essentially it's a crosswalk size speed bump so cars [1:00:41] really have to slow down to kind of move into those spaces and then similarly over at um Dober Drive um doing a raised [1:00:48] crosswalk there would essentially be creating a big speed bump before you go into the neighborhood um and so those [1:00:54] are all improvements that and and to your earlier question these are probably more general fund type of [1:01:02] improvements um I mentioned that one of the things that had come up was trying to create a very direct path Path West [1:01:08] over to the Opus Light Rail station connection on the trail for those that might want to bike to rail for the [1:01:14] commute it's about a mile um away as the crows flies from the existing trail to the new station we did have a [1:01:21] conversation with city of menit talk about this they were like they thought that sounded like a great idea but you know of course they have their own [1:01:27] funding things so have to look at the ways to do that um they are also building a new large Park directly [1:01:33] adjacent to the um the rail station and so that might be an opportunity for some [1:01:39] of the trail connections as well um through there but then we would sign that and make sure that it's very clear [1:01:44] you know like this is how you get over there and and so on is that a Mot Bridge [1:01:49] it is a Mot Bridge relatively recently reconstructed and it's the sidewalks are [1:01:55] wide enough to accom to accommodate a shared use Trail on it so the recommendation on from the perspective [1:02:02] of the dino side of the Border um there's some potential for some slight [1:02:07] you know kind of widening of some of the existing sidewalk um down closer to the [1:02:13] intersection and then you probably would have some minor intersection improvements kind of leading over the [1:02:18] highway in order to accommodate that type of Trail crossing over I think didn't um a United Health help pay for [1:02:26] that bridge but it's controlled 100% it is mot's Bridge yeah yeah and that was [1:02:32] the 9M Creek Trail before they redid 169 and put the tunnel there yeah so it's wide enough to be [1:02:39] yeah yeah and there's they've actually when you go on the minona side about 34s [1:02:44] of the distance between Idina and the station they've already got a new um [1:02:50] they've already got a new Trail there it's just how do you get it that last little bit um so it's I you know that [1:02:56] one might be an opportunity for some sort of joint funding application or or something like that as well um we also [1:03:03] talk about creating some new Boardwalk connections um up on the North side this is something that was also in your [1:03:09] long-term bike plan but it adding to the boardwalk so that there's another connection up to um the neighborhood [1:03:15] there and then there's also an opportunity you could extend the boardwalk and actually make it connect all the way up to the other portion of [1:03:21] Lincoln drive up by Van valkenberg Park um as well um so there's some some [1:03:26] opportunity there and that that is in some of your long-term plans already we've kind of changed the location [1:03:32] slightly for it but um is is kind of a neat opportunity to extend that boardwalk and that [1:03:40] connection um we talked about these these cow Trails we we had already mentioned those so making some little [1:03:45] adjustments some of the things that we kind of talk about one is we saw we see a lot of people going up this hill to [1:03:52] get to the um to get their coffee so you know creating an ADA accessible way for [1:03:58] people to do that and then another one is sort of behind children's this is this is right down over yep right there [1:04:06] um a lot of people are cutting kind of back that direction I think probably to get over to the Loading um from the [1:04:13] trail and so just making some small improvements there to create a little bit more accessibility in those [1:04:20] spaces um we talk about the potential to redesign linoln drive so right now um [1:04:26] and again this goes into the longer term ideas this is probably the most expensive thing that's on the table um [1:04:32] real frankly um the way that it's designed right now it's a fairly wide road that carries a very little traffic [1:04:39] there are some trucks that need to get there so we would need to make sure that the places where they need to turn in they're still turning rad radiuses and [1:04:45] so on but there is enough public right of way there to add a sidewalk on both side of the streets to have a Boulevard [1:04:52] of trees on both sides of the streets and be able to really make that feel more neighborhood rather than industrial [1:05:01] um so larger investment but I think actually helps set up some of the longer term Redevelopment opportunities and the [1:05:07] character that you want to have I think in some important ways um bus service improvements um as [1:05:15] you I'm sure know the Metro Transit is going through this network now thing they had some really kind of cool [1:05:21] improvements that they were planning for the minaka side of the highway around Opa so we work to help make sure that in [1:05:29] 's letter to them we suggested those should be on this side a little bit as well um one of the specific kind of cool [1:05:36] things is that it's going to be one of their pilot zones for um their their Flex Zone service which is a [1:05:41] door-to-door service where you kind of call it like an Uber and it takes you to and from the Light Rail station or [1:05:47] shopping within a zone so they have a zone of about you know a mile and a half [1:05:53] radius around the station or like okay can we just pull that another half mile so we can get our our space into that as [1:06:01] well and then you know this has been something that's kind of come up the idea of working to establish um [1:06:07] Community branding right now there's a variety of different types of signage in the area um the small area plan being [1:06:14] called Lincoln London Dairy I think there's been a little bit of where are we talking about again when you say that [1:06:19] so whether or not that's actually establishing some sort of new naming here or taking the linol London brand [1:06:26] and building that out um but working to refine that and working to refine some of the way finding and other things [1:06:31] where there's a variety of different types of signs in the area as well so that gets me to the end of the [1:06:37] short term so maybe I'll pause there I want to make sure that we do have time to get through the long term but just if there's any kind of key comments for [1:06:45] maybe let's say two to five minutes and then I'll jump into the long term I think you better go right to the long [1:06:51] term should I go okay and then we can we can Circle back so the long term and I'm going to just switch these Maps here and [1:06:57] I know you guys have this in front of you as well um again everything that we are trying to reflect here reflects the [1:07:05] implementation of the things in the short term so in terms of the um setting design guidelines the design of the [1:07:13] buildings that we've put in place here reflect those guidelines that we've been working to develop within them so um the [1:07:21] first kind of key element uh is you know what does it look like if the Children's Campus which is [1:07:28] already entitled as mixed use does a full Redevelopment so we've um looked at [1:07:35] how you might arrange some those buildings I already talked about that kind of hopefully clever use of the parking garage and trying to kind of [1:07:41] wrap around that um working to establish um a lot larger use of the site as Green [1:07:49] Space um still getting a pretty good unit count on the number of units you [1:07:54] could fit in there um because of the relationship to for example the community space that we've talked about [1:08:00] on this corner you know this could be an opportunity for some retail on that corner as could some retail along some [1:08:06] of these sides but really working to to look at that and and you will notice that these have similar counts to what's [1:08:15] in the loading but they are a little less bulky buildings the the actual buildings have been broken up a little [1:08:20] bit more um within that space so um I think one of the main points here is [1:08:26] that if and when that does redevelop um really trying to work to master plan it [1:08:32] make sure that the Green Space opportunities and Public Access are really working through that as as you [1:08:38] see that type of Redevelopment in the northern part of [1:08:43] the area um what we've tried to do was really try to think through a strategy [1:08:50] that brought um more intense uses a little bit closer to the highway way and [1:08:55] a little bit less intense uses closer to the existing neighborhood so you can see that the back kind of half of these [1:09:04] Parcels is largely been redeveloped as some sort of combination of retail [1:09:10] commercial or you could also do um additional housing um back in in some of [1:09:16] those areas um in fact looking at actually the parcel lines um there's a parcel line right here so this building [1:09:23] for example could be actually a good candidate for um doing additional housing back there as well and then a [1:09:30] little bit closer to the street what we've done is more of a townhouse um and this could also you know it could be [1:09:37] sort of townhous shaped buildings but they could be three Flats they could be there's a few different ways that you [1:09:42] could do that um one of the things obviously this again a developer has to [1:09:47] come in and you got to work with them and see what's in the market right then um but we did hear from folks too that [1:09:53] they wanted to think about um ownership opportunities and so townhous is more [1:09:58] typically you know we can't say for sure in a plan this is going to be ownership and this is not unless we're actually [1:10:04] investing some money in it but um we can say that town houses are more likely to be ownership and that they are also [1:10:13] probably an opportunity for affordable ownership um and and that could be something that could move forward as [1:10:19] well so you actually get a mix of unit types between the kind of different areas as well as continuing to establish [1:10:27] some additional retail and Commercial um so Zach go back if you [1:10:32] would I'm very concerned about that I I don't know the bracket um with [1:10:40] the parking lot in the middle being retail the the yeah I I think I think [1:10:47] that needs to be guided not retail so whether it's light industrial or office [1:10:53] or housing nobody's going to find those shops yeah so I I think to set up for [1:10:59] Success we need to not talk about retail in that space um you know if they had like a gift shop or you know something [1:11:06] in in within an office building that would work but there's not going to be any Street traffic other than the [1:11:13] neighborhood going in that so um so I would strongly discourage that from being retail SP we can definitely take [1:11:19] that under advisement as we talk through that and I think those are also housing [1:11:24] opport I mean I think Steve will back me up on this but we [1:11:30] interviewed a woman who actually owns a nail salon right there and she loves the [1:11:37] spot she loves the space her customers love it they know how to get there everyone has Apple Maps or Google Maps [1:11:42] or whatever now so so she's very happy with retail in that tiny Corner way up there well and and I will say that one [1:11:48] thing and this we're we're kind of jumping to the end here but one of the things that we did try to do as a part [1:11:53] of this Redevelopment is kind of reestablish Lish the road Network so that rather than kind of your main road [1:12:00] that people are thinking about being um Lincoln all the way through there's a little bit more of a moving into the [1:12:08] area so I my thought had been if you do have retail established in kind of these [1:12:14] areas and then you're doing some of this path turn especially with the visibility to the highway it might be possible to [1:12:21] establish it back in there but I do think um I think residential is a [1:12:27] possibility as well and I ultimately if what we're doing is steering land use what we could just talk about is you [1:12:34] know this could be this could be a mix you SC back here and then we could kind of let the market and the developers [1:12:40] decide hey is that really going to work for me or not for that type of development yeah I think it's just [1:12:45] expectation setting so sure the broader you could make it then is good but that [1:12:51] makes a lot of sense you also one time talked about spaces back in some of those that could [1:12:58] be possible it'd be interesting to um find out just roughly what kind of jobs [1:13:06] exist in the area today and how much people are getting paid yeah and because you know I hear the goal for it to be [1:13:14] live work and play but as I listen to this and I see the way things are being broken down and I know it's going to be [1:13:21] office residential and it's not going to be industrial it's not not going to be dedicated commercial and it is going to [1:13:28] be guided by what the market wants and we know the easiest thing to build is [1:13:35] rental market rate I think there's a pretty good chance that this is going to [1:13:40] be mostly live live play with retail that may not provide much wage so if [1:13:50] that's and it does really seem like there's a lot of places in Idina where we are really moving toward [1:13:56] mostly residential and you know kind of moving away from being that city that [1:14:03] has more you know like I don't know if you could say light industrial higher paying jobs that's not what we're aiming [1:14:09] for it seems like we're aiming more toward becoming primarily a bedroom community [1:14:16] and I think this has the potential to follow along that movement that's [1:14:21] already established so I just want to say that because I think that's where we [1:14:27] could be heading because it will be guided by and and I Market Place ultimately that that is that is an [1:14:32] important point of decision making I think in in the interviews with the building owners and and business owners [1:14:38] that are in those areas I think a lot of the sentiment that I heard and I'm please correct me if you feel I'm I'm [1:14:44] misstating this was that the buildings that they have there primarily work for [1:14:50] them because they built them and they are very inexpensive for them they own them outright you know it's there's not [1:14:57] a mortgage however there's also not a lot of market [1:15:06] for that type of light industrial that doesn't have better [1:15:12] Highway access than this area currently does yeah the the business owners love [1:15:17] the location because of the access to the highway yeah no and some of them are paying incredibly good wages for people [1:15:23] who have just a high school diploma and so I think we need to ask ourselves what you know it's complicated do we want to [1:15:30] keep that I think it's it's a value and the other thing that I would say is I think there there are some areas within [1:15:36] it that are providing some affordable commercial spaces for uses that are absolutely necessary that the market [1:15:43] would not support them in uh more expensive building and so what types of [1:15:49] Investments the city's willing to make in order to try and kind of keep some of that commercial affordability [1:15:55] um in the long term I think is also an important question the specific one that just it always stands out for me is [1:16:00] there a like Russian speaking adult dayare um back in there that I can't [1:16:05] imagine has very good margins on anything they're doing but they're providing an incredibly important [1:16:10] service and so that's that's definitely as with any Redevelopment it needs to be something [1:16:17] that's thought about and and centered can I ask one quick question and maybe you guys I assume you guys have a good [1:16:23] there's a lot of Road here for something that's so Eco focused is there a like a [1:16:29] reason for as many roads from a circulation perspective really really just to shorten block lengths and try [1:16:35] and make it a little more Community feeling it's it's the the existing like some of those buildings that are out [1:16:40] there right now are like 600 ft long they're they're very very large spaces and so when you start looking at [1:16:46] Redevelopment it's a bigger Parcels as well um we actually and we this is [1:16:53] something that we can actually provide as well we've started to do calculations of the before and after in [1:17:00] terms of we are adding more roads but we're also removing a lot of parking lot so the impermeable um total is [1:17:08] decreasing um throughout and that's something that we could probably continue to push [1:17:15] further that's actually not a lot of roads it's you can actually have another road if you're looking at you know [1:17:21] morning side for example you can have another road in here and those would yeah aot a lot of them are existing like [1:17:29] Drive Lanes of parking lots as well so it's kind of trying to take those and turn those into something that's a more [1:17:35] usable form yeah you can actually get a rough sense of internal roadways by just walking around it there yeah yeah system [1:17:42] set up well and we wanted to think about like with the Redevelopment opportunities they kind of had to make sense with the existing Parcels as well [1:17:49] so if we have you know we wanted to Think Through let's say this guy wants to move faster than the guy who owns you [1:17:56] know these two Parcels how do how can that still work in terms of the road [1:18:01] connections and some of those things for us to do just that one first or or or [1:18:07] other ideas like that as well the other thing I did just want to highlight and then we we can just kind of move on to [1:18:12] discussion is really looking at you know with any new Redevelopment working to try and create some of these buffer [1:18:18] green spaces um and so you know whether that's between these buildings that as [1:18:24] we said currently were drawing as kind of retail and the neighborhood but could also be um higher density housing or [1:18:30] mixed use um and the neighborhood so creating a larger kind of um this I think would have a very nice Boulevard [1:18:37] feel with some you know nice green space that serves the community there and then also on that one side of children's [1:18:42] closer to the um closer to the wedland really trying to emphasize that there as [1:18:48] well and I think that more or less pulls through all of the recommendations so excited to kind of chat with you the [1:18:55] other thing though that I do want to put on your calendar is we are having a um public um open house it's going to be um [1:19:04] December 2nd and I'm forgetting the name of the church Chapel Hills Church on Wooddale what time um 6 yes thank you [1:19:14] well starts at 5:30 5:30 presentation presentation will be at 6 yeah okay um [1:19:20] so we're going to be taking feedback that we've gotten from you the work group gr is going to be working through [1:19:26] what we want to show on the kind of final draft that then goes to the community at that point yeah Steve I [1:19:33] want to go back to your question uh you are curious whether we felt being that [1:19:39] we were being porched or pulled in a certain direction by the community I think we asked the community two [1:19:45] questions one was what would you like to see and the other one was what would you not like to see and I have to say in all [1:19:52] fairness I think the energy now was all on what we'd like to see good we asked [1:19:58] people what you would not like to see we didn't get very strong responses obviously the earlier proposal of 5780 [1:20:05] drew a very strong response which we're all aware of but other than that we really haven't had a lot from the [1:20:11] community where they said we don't want this they were much more interested in we want a restaurant we want a grocery [1:20:17] store is that is that a shift because I remember when we were over at uh public [1:20:23] works there were a there was a group of people there that were firm in what they did not want yes there there there [1:20:29] there's there's definitely been a smaller vocal group that really would like to not just see any change at all [1:20:35] in the area um Welcome to our world yeah so and and and again we [1:20:42] we we have been trying to find a good balance between all of the different [1:20:48] interests we've heard between comments that we've heard that are contradictory in some cases [1:20:55] what we think is likely to actually be able to get built um and you know [1:21:02] celebrates again the the specific nature of this place next to this Creek with this incredible [1:21:08] Trail and and really trying to think about how we we honor that within within all of those constraints Jim you [1:21:16] remember when 169 was closed between you heard what did people they [1:21:23] don't want traffic through the neighborhood they had it we had it and [1:21:29] and that right so anything that interrupts the basic the the general lifestyle is [1:21:36] is a negative Bumper to Bumper they did you I get that we didn't like that either um well unfortunately we don't [1:21:44] have much time to talk here now because we got to go on and get ready for the council meeting but I would suggest that [1:21:49] when you get the feedback off of your next public open house I think the council will be willing to meet with you [1:21:56] again and hear what folks had to say and how it refined your thinking and [1:22:02] what what are your what are the thinking at the next stage is the same as it is now shortterm and long [1:22:09] term and then yeah well and I think I I our I think our [1:22:14] next the way that it's scheduled right now is after this meeting we will be working on completing a final draft [1:22:21] which would then you know be public published publicly as well um and then [1:22:26] moving through the process of um both Planning Commission and Council approval on it um I think if it's desirable to [1:22:33] have us come back and do another kind of update on you know here's what changed and introduce the the full document to [1:22:40] you as well though that's something we could definitely work with let me ask my let me ask my colleagues that because I think there's if if they believe that [1:22:46] there's opportunity here for one more more chance at Council input and that input would be important before you [1:22:52] write your recommendation then we should do that [1:22:58] otherwise I don't know what else we have on the docket for the work sessions what's your there's a lot of stuff on [1:23:05] the docket for year so that's my my concern too um but uh maybe once you [1:23:11] have some time May me and Addison can touch base and see if there's time to either put in a work session or if maybe [1:23:16] it'll be a council meeting check-in we we would almost certainly want to try and do it in December or early January [1:23:23] if possible which I know was I can see on your faces the answer you were looking for um here not going to happen [1:23:30] yeah I I know you how how tight your schedules are and how difficult that is we I we absolutely can also though send [1:23:37] a memo to you about along with the draft plan of this is this is the feedback [1:23:42] that we got both from you this is what we've adjusted um from you and the public and and make sure that you at the [1:23:49] very least we can get you those materials too um if the scheduling doesn't work out okay yeah we'll work on scheduling first [1:23:56] and we'll see we'll go from there if it would work out we'd like to [1:24:02] have one more chance I didn't put anything yeah and I guarantee you I mean with how smart the din residents are if [1:24:07] they see the plan they will show up and they will give you feedback and right and I yeah and I think that's good yeah [1:24:16] y to that yeah absolutely okay thank you all so much we appreciate [1:24:22] it that