[0:00] buddy how we doing all right I don't have any good jokes yet but maybe later welcome [0:07] everybody to the March 13th 2024 City Vio Planning Commission meeting on [0:13] behalf of the rest of the commission we welcome you here we're grateful you're here whether that's in person or for [0:19] those tuning in remotely uh we really appreciate your curiosity your [0:25] participation and your feedback as we navigate change here together Anya [0:30] specific to the way in which we want to use our land I want to also thank my colleagues [0:37] up here uh like you they are passionate residents of Adina and they have quite [0:43] the commitment of their time and expertise to share with the city and uh [0:49] we meet twice monthly in this capacity to kind of apply the law that governs uh [0:57] stem down from the comprehensive plan which consists of small area plans as [1:04] well as other guidance to help us make decisions for long range um [1:10] opportunities and then also in regards to zoning which is a tool uh in in a different capacity we [1:20] also make law so what you don't see is we have work sessions uh behind the [1:25] scenes and we have an annual work plan uh of which we try to make changes to [1:31] the existing situation either through creations of small area plans one of [1:37] which we're working on now in Westy Dina and uh also creating new zoning [1:42] ordinances which you'll see tonight too um in The Proposal of an accessory dwelling unit ordinance so that's a [1:51] little bit about us uh it's a bitter sweet meeting tonight we uh we said [1:56] goodbye last meeting to uh commissioner Jerry Strauss who served nine full years [2:03] on this commission three full consecutive three-year terms but it's [2:08] also an exciting meeting because as a result we're back filling that with some new people uh we'll intro oh yeah we can [2:15] we'll get to that a little later but we have Claire and then David elky who is returning uh without further Ado let's [2:22] call this meeting to order and then do roll [2:27] call commissioner who here commissioner Miranda here commissioner Padia here commissioner [2:34] Smith here commissioner day here commissioner Bornstein here commissioner felt here commissioner [2:43] Hanan here commissioner Schultz here chair Bennett here all [2:50] right next we have the approval of tonight's meeting agenda with the notation that commercial kennels and [2:57] animal hospitals ordinance has been withdrawn uh with that modification is [3:02] there a motion to approve tonight's agenda move to approve the agenda second [3:07] all those in favor say I I I I so moved all right next we have the approval of [3:13] the prior meeting minutes which consists of two meetings one from our regular meeting on February 14th and a special [3:20] work session meeting from February 28th do we have a [3:26] motion motion to approve second all those in favor say [3:33] I so moved all right next kind of getting back to what I was talking about [3:38] earlier special recognitions and presentations so this is the welcome to [3:44] some new planning Commissioners one of which is not here tonight David alkyrie might recognize the name he did serve on [3:50] the Planning Commission before and served as a chair co-chair of the kill [3:56] District um area plan rest in peace [4:01] temporarily and we have a new planning commissioner Claire hanaman and would [4:06] like to give you the opportunity to introduce yourself um my name is Claire hanman uh I have been a resident of [4:14] Adina since 2010 uh well I did not go to school here all my brothers and sisters [4:20] did my mother and grandmother have lived here their whole lives as well so um I'm excited to be a part of the community [4:26] and a part of um the important discussions about um zoning and housing [4:32] and how we provide access for everyone so thank you for having [4:37] me awesome you joined for a good meeting we got some good stuff on the docket [4:42] tonight uh before I get into that we have now the community comment period [4:48] which is opportunity for any Resident who's here in person to speak about a matter not onto tonight's agenda you [4:55] have three minutes similar to a public hearing you can come up to a podium State your full name address when the [5:02] light turns green you may begin and when it turns Amber you have 30 seconds left and when it's red uh your time's up [5:09] anyone here for Community comment please come [5:16] forward there we go thank [5:26] you on okay 6136 viw Avenue I'm not here to give you a lot of information at this [5:33] point but uh like like I have in the past but um I just wanted to give you an [5:41] update for any of you that don't regularly drive by the former [5:46] burley's uh site on Valley View Road and [5:52] uh intersection of 602 Street and oaklan Avenue um the power line [6:00] issue um as far as the setback goes and safety of anybody working on that [6:06] building and maintaining it in the future finally did get [6:13] addressed but barely because I know those power lines still cannot [6:18] technically be 10 ft away from the structure they're as far away as they could be [6:24] placed um without taking out two power poles and burying the lines so this must [6:31] have been the compromise that XL Energy agreed on uh they took one of the two [6:37] Transformers off of one of the poles um I would like to have this be a [6:45] cautionary Tale in the future when you are going to be asked to give a variance [6:53] for extreme setback um [6:59] uh numbers which this property was and please be cognizant there's there's a [7:06] very good reason why setback numbers are what they are it's not just oh we want [7:14] we just want to do a bigger building this is just plain safety and um I mean [7:21] I I did see one of these workers before those lines got moved putting up the [7:26] roof structure leaning back with his harness on but he was three feet away [7:33] from a live wire and that's just way too close so thank [7:40] you thank you so much do we have anyone else who is here for Community comment [7:46] yeah please come forward same [7:51] drill uh thank you all my name is Sarah Irwin and I live at 6025 kmar Drive [7:58] which is just around the corner behind the old Kevin Keys Auto Body lot which I [8:03] know you're all familiar with um these last two years have had two proposals to [8:08] this site which have both been unanimously voted down by this commission uh and these proposals as you [8:15] well know take significant time energy and resources from the city and [8:20] potentially similar Pro proposals could continue for the foreseeable future uh [8:27] I'm here to request that you take steps to avoid this progress progression and [8:33] instead of waiting until the 2028 comprehensive plan to consider the long-term goal of the site to act now [8:40] and to change the zoning to residential um one important factor that [8:46] I found that was in your reasoning for Bo voting down both of the previous proposals had to do with the unique [8:52] position of the land and its small size and the speed with which cars drive down [8:58] Vernon Avenue and I think you've rightfully recognized that any commercial establishment on that small [9:04] property that attracts cars whether it be a restaurant a deli a coffee shop [9:10] parking lot or a consignment drop off line um could potentially cause some [9:16] major hazards on this very heavily used strip of County Road where cars regularly Drive 50 miles per hour and [9:24] without traffic signal crosswalks or even sidewalks this small plot of land is just not big enough to be a [9:29] commercial node and it's not situated in a place where it could thoughtfully or safely be one so my request is instead [9:36] of taking more time energy and tax money to try to figure out what would work on that spot I'm asking you to take um the [9:44] steps necessary to change the zoning so that the owners can move forward with what we already know does work on that [9:49] spot in this 100% residential neighborhood and that's housing uh this site has really caused [9:56] contention for years now both within my neighborhood that surrounds it and the community as a [10:02] whole um so I'm asking City leadership to take the lead here and move on after [10:08] two failed proposals and people tired of driving past a dilapidated isore please [10:13] move forward to change the zoning of this property to residential before the cycle begins again thank you very much [10:19] for your service to the city I appreciate it thank [10:26] you that was very helpful and insightful uh uh maybe just to address that one [10:31] comment uh kind of in line with some of the stuff we've talked about tonight regarding small area plans and processes [10:39] one item that we tried to uh put on our work plan the prior year but is on our work plan this year is to kind of [10:46] identify potential areas of change as well as kind of cleaning up and marrying [10:52] zoning to the comprehensive plan so there aren't these anomalies of [10:57] different zoned areas with how they're guided and the comprehensive plan which is the more overarching document so that was that [11:05] was great feedback and we are working on that um we're not specifically [11:11] prioritizing one site over the other um Lou maybe we haven't really kicked it [11:17] off uh but the goal is to kind of identify all Sites just like that one [11:24] and kind of develop a game plan with what to do with them so [11:29] I don't know if it will act with the speed you're hoping like today um but it [11:35] is on our docket and has been kind of before this became an issue it's just [11:41] sometimes this happens a little slower than we'd like you have any other feedback yeah I was gonna doing gonna do [11:48] it during commissioner comments but um yeah we're kicking off a meeting next week to talk about uh areas of change [11:53] within the city and so we're going to look at the entire city and see um and [11:58] one thing we're going to look at that is areas like this where we have devel constant developer interest right so we want to look at that and again help plan [12:05] plan for things before you know we just get a bunch of [12:11] uh thank you anyone else here for a community [12:17] comment all right not seeing any oh yeah oh there we [12:24] go hey there hi uh longtime resident firsttime caller um my name is Ryan [12:30] seamers I'm from uh 5821 Wooddale Avenue um I was just kind of curious if I might [12:37] be able to get like a quick update about kind of the um the status of like the [12:43] Grand View uh pedestrian bridge Grand View at um you probably know which one I'm [12:48] talking about there's some contention about like the Ada uh status of it and [12:54] all those other things what's considered Ada what's not um I went out there and [12:59] took a look at basically the the length of the um what's considered basically the walkway as opposed to a ramp being [13:07] 100t and I'm just wondering if there's any implementation or design of the project that's not complete yet that may be [13:13] addressing like a Runway uh wheelchair if somebody is trying to just help them [13:19] up or not um if they're not able to manage that long run even though it's [13:24] only like 1% so that's all thank you very much great question and you know [13:30] we're equally curious Carrie uh do you have an update on that at all I know there's just stuff blocking it off yeah [13:38] I don't but we could put him in touch with our engineering department who was on top of that yeah if you just look to the [13:44] website and reach out to Carrie uh and then Carrie if you could copy us too um [13:49] we'll try to get you an update and we'd like to know on ourselves so great question anyone else here for Community [13:57] comment this is a good night I think three the most in like 5 years let's just keep it [14:04] going okay all right see none we will move to the public hearing portion of [14:10] tonight's meeting I didn't go over this during the introduction but I'll give everyone kind of a rundown on what to [14:16] expect we have two public hearings tonight uh the process to expect is an [14:23] applicant or the city depending on who is proposing something that is a potential change to the law of the [14:30] land uh they put forward a formal submitt or a like formal proposal for a [14:37] change uh City staff will do a bunch of work in coordination with them and [14:42] they'll put together a staff report guiding Us One Direction or another [14:47] staff will then put together a presentation like Carrie's getting ready for right now and then we'll kind of [14:54] exchange some questions and answers Commissioners to City staff then we give [14:59] the opportunity to the applicant team to provide a presentation with similar back and [15:05] forth after which we will open it to a public hearing and now this is the [15:11] opportunity for residents here and those tuning in to comment about an item on tonight's agenda again we have two and [15:19] uh if you're here in person it's the same thing you have three minutes to speak uh and for those tuning in remotely I'll give you a couple [15:26] instructions here in a second um and then after we close that we turn it back to the Planning Commission to deliberate [15:33] kind of exchange and then motion for either approval or denial of the request [15:39] at hand so again we have a development proposal and then we have an ordinance [15:45] proposal tonight so for those who are tuning in remotely if you want to get ready to participate you can call the [15:52] following number 312 535 8110 and enter access code okay get [16:01] ready 26 32 379 [16:08] 5802 then the password is 5454 but wait there's [16:14] more press star three on your telephone keypad when you'd like to get in the queue to speak and then again we'll let [16:21] you know when it's your turn uh that won't be for a little bit here yet but we'll probably run through this quickly [16:28] again and with that give the opportunity for planner Teague to present thank you [16:34] Carrie thank you chair members of the commission so this property so the [16:39] request before you is a preliminary resoning and site plan with variances [16:44] and the subdivision property is located in the Southdale District it is the 22 [16:51] acre parcel directly west of Southdale itself the site is guided in our [16:57] comprehensive plan for office and residential use are in the light pink [17:03] the site is zoned PUD that PUD zoning um [17:08] it was reson back in 2017 and I'll show the plan in a minute but just want to [17:15] highlight here while this graphic is up Southdale itself is Zone PCD 3 as is the [17:21] Galleria to the South and the properties most of the properties to the South this site when it was originally U developed [17:28] had a PCD 3 zoning in the 50s and 60s and 70s and the site developed under [17:35] that zoning the request this evening is to go back to that original zoning so [17:41] the approved 2017 plan so with the planned unit development what a [17:48] developer proposed for this site is the only thing that can happen this plan [17:53] that's on the screen that is the only this is the Zoning for the site that's the development that has to occur occur [18:00] so with that proposal the middle Office Buildings were to be removed as well as [18:05] the existing Tavern on France they were to build a six-story office building a [18:11] new six-story medical building new Tavern on France toward France retail a hotel and more retail [18:19] space as well as an eight story uh residential apartment none of that [18:26] development has taken place um so nothing can happen on the site except [18:31] for this plan under the current zoning today the applicant came through about [18:38] well it was late last year with a sketch plan proposal for the medical building that's proposed this evening and we [18:45] looked at a couple of different um zoning options for the site one feature [18:51] I'll um highlight here is this is a parking deck that was proposed and it was going to take out that mature stand [18:57] of trees on that side of the that side of the site they also were [19:02] looking at potentially being able to fit that into the Pud that was approved [19:08] anyway the result of from the feedback that was given at from Planning Commission and city council is the [19:14] proposal that's before you this evening so the request again is to tear down the [19:21] two middle Office Buildings and The Tavern on France the two office Towers would [19:28] remain and they're proposing a 107,000 ft three-story medical building with a [19:35] twole parking deck toward Valley View they've angled it to save some of those [19:41] mature oak trees along Valley View and also an 8,000 square foot new [19:48] restaurant the parking deck itself could be expanded to four levels so it's going of seen as a proof of parking [19:55] plan here's another look at the proposal so you can see the trees that would [20:00] remain some trees do have to be removed roughly in this [20:05] area and here is a two-dimensional view of the site plan so what's requested is a [20:13] preliminary rezoning from PUD to PCD 3 that planned commercial District [20:18] establishing the original zoning on the site a preliminary site plan a [20:23] subdivision they're proposing to divide the property so each structure is located on its own parcel currently it's [20:30] just exists out there today as one lot and there's a couple a few variances [20:37] our transparency requirement on Valley View Road where 75% of the front of a [20:42] building facing public realm has to be um transparent first floor Building height [20:49] from 20 to 14 and 16 feet and a building height variance this is in a height [20:54] overlay District of four stories and 48 ft the three-story medical building [21:00] would be 52 feet so because there's a rezoning the [21:05] city has a lot of discretion to approve or deny this is our pyramid of discretion where we have the most [21:12] discretion with the rezoning and comprehensive plan Amendment so in review of the site plan [21:20] itself items of note with the site plan one of the entrances on France roughly [21:26] in this location here would be eliminated they're creating this 50F foot buffer [21:32] between this new drive a and France which is that 50- foot setback is a [21:39] building setback requirement in the district while there's not a building there still would be the 50 Foot um [21:45] space of Green Space expanded sidewalk further away from France and then the [21:50] double row of trees currently on the north side of the [21:56] site you you would need to if you're in a vehicle you would have to go out onto the street in order to access the South [22:04] part of the site so this new Drive in front provides an internal [22:09] connection there's also a sidewalk proposed to get residents in the Cornelia area to the west through the [22:17] site there is within this location here and I believe the applicant will show [22:22] this in some of their slides but there's a set of stairs that you would need to [22:28] um go up in order to access and access toward France so some of the features of [22:35] the site plan um again as I mentioned the [22:40] variances um this the project is essentially code compliant with PCD 3 [22:46] with those exceptions one thing I wanted to highlight here within the existing PUD the allowed f is uh one on the site [22:55] so they could develop up to nearly a million square feet of of uh building on [23:02] the site with the rezoning some of that development is taken away the max f is [23:08] 75 so the maximum is uh 734 th000 on the [23:14] site The Proposal is for just under 500,000 so it's it's less than [23:21] five in regard to traffic and parking um a traffic study and parking study was [23:27] done by uh Stant Ed terhar is on the call this evening so should you have any [23:32] questions in regard to the study or the parking he can answer those the study does conclude that the [23:41] existing roadway Network can support the project also in regard to [23:46] parking with all of the square footage proposed they would need [23:52] 1,658 parking spaces on the site with the two-level construction of the [23:59] parking ramp there would be 1 1555 so a little bit short of what code requires [24:05] the parking study has concluded that in order for this site to function [24:11] 1,122 spaces is adequate so they would be providing enough but that second the [24:17] the uh two-level addition is seen as a proof of parking should they need [24:24] it in regard to Landscaping based on the perim of the site 108 overstory trees [24:31] are required with what's proposed and existing there's over 300 trees so [24:36] they're far in excess of what our code requires should note they are removing [24:42] about 125 trees on the site most of them are around the [24:48] existing buildings highlighted here but there are some Oaks that would be removed on the Valley View side but [24:55] they're replacing 151 trees so again it does exceed our code but just wanted to [25:01] acknowledge the tree removal in regard to building material um the building [25:07] would be brick and glass it is code compliant the transparency requirement along France is met the applicant will [25:15] go through this in a little more detail so I'll move through these this is the [25:20] side that faces Valley View again code compliant for building material but this is the site where the transparency [25:27] variance is requested the restaurant is code [25:32] compliant in terms of building material and that 75% [25:39] requirement there would be a little patio area outside this is again the Valley View [25:47] side in regard to the zoning so to give a little history on the zoning again the [25:53] site originally developed under the PC3 uh District [25:58] within the PCD 3 district offices are a conditionally permitted use permitted um [26:04] when the site developed restaurants are also a permitted use and a medical office is a permitted use so under um [26:13] back in 1984 the city recodified its zoning ordinance and rezoned the site to [26:19] planned office District as near as we can tell in in speaking with the previous city planner [26:26] and former um city manager that was rezoned to planned office District [26:32] because the primary uses on the site were office so it was seen at that time [26:38] even though it's allowed in both zoning districts as um more closely because of [26:44] the majority of the uses were office on the site that they thought that that was the appropriate [26:51] zoning so again in 2017 it was rezoned for this specific [26:57] project comprehensive plan as I mentioned guides it for office and residential office being the primary use [27:03] secondary uses being limited retail so the uses proposed are consistent with [27:09] the comprehensive plan in terms of the subdivision this highlights the four [27:15] lots that they're proposing so each build whoops each building would be located on its own lot for setback [27:23] purposes we don't recognize the interior lot lines when it's a consistent zoning [27:29] District so the the setbacks that are applied here are the perimeter the restaurant would be on its [27:36] own lot here in terms of Park dedication Park dedication is based on the increase [27:42] that they're proposing on the site they're removing about 990,000 square fet of of um developable area and [27:50] putting back about 125,000 Square F feet so that's how that calculation is done [27:56] and so there's a just under 4 ,000 uh Park dedication [28:02] required so primary issues is the proposal reasonable to justify the [28:08] rezoning and are the variances uh reasonable and Justified as well so to [28:13] start with the rezoning um staff does support the rezoning again it reestablishes that [28:20] original zoning on the site allowed uses include the office medical restaurants [28:26] and Banks which would all be located on on the site um the PCD 3 as I mentioned is [28:33] consistent with the zoning to the East and to the south and east again consistent with the [28:39] comprehensive plan and the existing PUD um no development is taken place so [28:46] there has to be some kind of reasonable rezoning of the site in order to get development on the site and again F [28:53] would be reduced in terms of the very es the [28:59] first floor height and transparency are those Justified and again staff believes that they are but we believe that it [29:07] meets the variance criteria the intent um is for the intent of the [29:13] ceiling height was to allow the Redevelopment of properties [29:19] um to change hands change uses over time um and again that transparency [29:25] requirement is to activate those Street Front is um activate the storefronts in [29:31] front of the public realm however since that ordinance went into effect in 2000 [29:37] we've done a number of variances to those requirements um both for ceiling height and transparency either through [29:44] variances or flexibility through a PUD so again we believe that their that the [29:50] request is reasonable and what they um are requesting here in terms of Building [29:56] height we also feel that the variance criteria is met the intent of building [30:03] require Building height requirements is to provide uniform building Heights um [30:09] and not have negative impacts on adjacent properties with this one we believe the height requested is [30:15] reasonable there's six and seven story buildings out there what's proposed would be shorter than those in the [30:21] middle so we believe again that is reasonable staff is outlined options [30:29] within the uh Planning Commission staff report for approval and denial with [30:34] findings but staff is recommending approval subject to the findings and conditions that are outlined with that I [30:40] can stand for questions well thanks for standing now [30:47] questions anyone yeah commissioner Pia um thanks Carrie um is a daycare per [30:56] permissible under PC D3 I believe it is I would have to double check my code but I believe it is [31:03] okay so that is one of the per permitted uses and also I just want to clarify in [31:09] eliminating um if you're driving say South down France Avenue um past the [31:15] development you're eliminating the right turn lane near where the restaurant is [31:21] now is that correct correct so and but there's still [31:26] there's a left turn um Lane there as well to go into [31:31] Southdale correct or is it further down I'm I'm concerned about the um [31:38] pedestrian Crossing [31:43] um so will there be additional pedestrian Crossings or I believe this [31:50] is existing today right and so will that stay is my question that will stay okay [31:56] and my last question is when we uh taking out all those trees what happens to the trees that are [32:04] removed and while they're replacing you know they're removing right I I'm asking [32:09] about the ones they take out where do those go what do they H what happens to them oh I guess that'd be a question for [32:15] the applicant okay if they grind them on the site [32:21] or okay thank you [32:30] just looking at the code quick pcd1 allows for daycare so PCD 3 includes that just so you know thank you [32:38] yeah commer Smith thank you director Teague uh for [32:43] the presentation and just a couple questions just so I could understand a little bit more just uh on the trees [32:50] just roughly speaking like what percentage of the trees would be removed [33:02] percentage 50 100% of 125 of [33:08] them but I know I know I'm just I don't have that answer but just see I don't [33:14] know just trying to get a gauge there and I could always ask the applicants too when when they come yeah [33:20] I I didn't run a percentage um is this area a flood zone [33:27] area is is prone to flooding and is there any discussion about flood [33:32] mitigation uh the this area is prone to flooding especially the south portion of [33:38] the site um I don't have an engineer with me [33:43] other than the team might have one to explain how the the the the drainage plan is going to work here but our [33:49] engineering department has reviewed the plans and they didn't have any [33:56] issues um just a quick Al I think it's the f I I want to say that's the flaw [34:01] area ratio right um when you quoted the F range um is that really just for [34:12] the whole site or is it just for the potential subdivision of three and two [34:17] that's for the whole site so it' be all four proposed [34:24] lots and um I also saw in these slides too when you looked at parking I saw [34:32] like this arrow that showed from subdivision one sub subdivision 2 seem [34:37] like it might absorb uh the parking that might be in subdivision [34:43] one I guess my question is if you were to develop subdivision one would you [34:49] have to put parking there or would it already be considered in subdivision 2 [35:00] are you referring to the you just passed it you just passed [35:07] it this one yes this one right here yeah so just explain just that [35:15] arrow and kind of what does that mean that does it mean that we're going to absorb the parking in the in the new [35:21] ramp 200 displaced parking stalls just help me understand this view a little bit more please yeah so to be honest [35:27] when I did my review I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to this graphic this was in the The applicant's Proposal [35:34] we're not considering any future development here I think they're saying [35:39] should they do an additional development within this location you know they have to go through the same process and we're [35:46] evaluating the parking I believe what they're saying is the extra two Decks that they [35:53] could add to this could support development here here but that's not [35:59] part of the review tonight okay yeah I just tring to think about the [36:05] future all right thank you thanks Quincy any other yeah down [36:12] there way down there you know I just had a quick question I was wondering are we going to [36:17] do anything for pedestrian access with the increased and an outflow of the [36:24] project yeah so The Pedestrian improvements would be a Improvement in [36:31] front of the site with the more pedestrian friendly with that 50 foot setback that I had mentioned and trees [36:38] on either side of the sidewalk I would hope when the rest of the site development develops that we would [36:44] continue that type of of uh sidewalk around the site one of the key additions [36:51] here is that sidewalk through the site coming from Valley View here [36:57] in between the existing building and the parking ramp there is a series of stairs here this is [37:04] a Skyway that would connect the buildings and continue out this [37:12] direction there would also be sidewalks all around the new buildings and in [37:17] front of the medical building here to connect to the existing office [37:23] also I didn't mention in the presentation but all one of the the core what they're trying to [37:30] accomplish here is connecting all of the existing buildings on the site so the existing office would be connected here [37:38] I believe this is at ground level into the new building there would be a stairwell over to here and then into the [37:45] parking ramp that would connect to the existing office here so you don't have [37:50] to go outside to connect to all three of the buildings [37:57] awesome thank you great question Claire um can you walk me through Carrie how [38:04] you get from this site across Valley View it's kind I couldn't figure it out [38:11] when I drove by yeah it looks like you would go to here or from the back of the [38:17] building there's also a little sidewalk here to the existing crosswalk across [38:22] Valley View here believe it might show up in our [38:29] aial oh my arrow is probably right over [38:40] it so it looks like right [38:49] here commissioner F or commissioner hman you're done you done or do you have [38:56] other questions um I guess [39:01] generally uh the switch from the Pud zoning um reverting back we uh lose a [39:08] lot of the um public amenities or and and the intention for creating The Pedestrian scape um you know on the [39:17] connection to the prominade and all of that um understandably this isn't developable for a myriad of reasons in [39:24] the current world so I'm I'm sympathetic to the developer um struggles there um I [39:31] guess is the loss of The Pedestrian connection that is envisioned in the [39:37] comprehensive plan justification in and of itself to deny a request to revert [39:43] zoning or how does that work logistically yeah to start so yeah um we [39:50] absolutely are losing um big pedestrian connections um both north out [39:57] through the site as well as East West you see there were two this was to be a [40:04] a wer for would be a shared pedestrian and drive so we're definitely losing a [40:09] lot of public realm here there was to be public easements over all of that I [40:14] would say that in and of itself isn't enough to deny it would could be additive to some of the other findings [40:22] that are included um within the staff report for denial [40:30] um and then one last question uh has anything changed in our understanding of [40:35] the flood planes from when the 2017 PUD was approved and today I mean I know [40:41] we're close to the water table there um but this envisioned a lot of underground parking um and that's not contemplated [40:49] currently but I don't know if facts have changed yeah I don't believe facts have changed it was going to be extremely [40:55] difficult to develop this plan because there's underground parking throughout all of this I'm extremely challenging to [41:03] do that given the high water table they were going to have to raise the site up in order to accommodate that so but in [41:10] terms of the factors are still still the same out there [41:18] today commissioner felt over to the right [41:25] now um and staying on this plan so the pre the approved [41:31] PUD plan in 2017 how many parking spaces [41:36] were a part of that approved plan I can't see it on my screen yeah I don't [41:43] recall exactly it was well over 2,000 um oh maybe I have it in [41:52] my it was on there just too little [41:59] 2044 okay it was on there oh yeah right here [42:07] 244 and that was for that nearly a million square feet yes and now there's [42:13] um 1555 and the ability to park 1700 [42:25] okay part of that was B based on a the parking study for that for the larger [42:31] project for the larger project yes yeah and and I think I just wanted to understand how much parking was planned [42:38] previously versus how much parking is planned now um because of the the [42:44] traffic engineering study um was good for this larger project in the traffic [42:50] engineering study is good for project too yep the significant change is the [42:56] reduction and surface parking with this plan and in reality taking down those two parking um to the middle buildings [43:04] and putting this building in um the current parking needs are going to kind [43:10] of stay the same it's not until any future um buildings are done on some of [43:16] those other lots that would change the parking that [43:21] would change the need for more parking yeah and um so I have another question about the plaid in piece of it for you [43:29] so if if the project is replanted or broken up into four Parcels they they [43:34] can they can then be owned independently and sold independently and developed independently they they [43:42] could um there would be there needs to be cross access easements because it's [43:48] all kind of a shared Arrangement so that would be a part of the platting requirement is to require that kind of [43:55] that shared parking and access Arrangement throughout the site and as a [44:01] part of that you know what was on the previous plan um was breaking [44:06] down this lot into there was two East West drives [44:13] through there and that allowed for some pedestrian access East West besides the [44:20] some additional um as part of that kind of breaking in platting it can we ask [44:26] for some of that pedestrian access on that on the [44:32] South Drive and that North the drive just south of 6,800 and [44:37] the that kind of cuts through yep if there's sidewalks that you feel should [44:43] be added you could always add that as a condition of approval okay thank you I [44:48] think that's it for me for staff thank you commissioner B you got [44:54] anything yeah commissioner Smith yeah just as a as a followup to [45:01] the plating question if this was subdivided and you and you sell off the [45:10] first um first lot could the owner of that lot then [45:16] also request a subdivision so it it be subdivided subdivided even further if [45:22] that's if that's possible it's possible and um is it possible even to [45:28] like put a condition that it no longer be subdivided or is that we can't bu the [45:34] future Council on something like that someone always has the ability to make a [45:39] request and with your point about um when you subdivide you have to build [45:45] easements right so if someone purchases that first slot request are subdivided [45:52] will we also need to put easements within that space too in all likelihood [45:57] and we have to require it as a city or they could decide or we would if they're [46:02] sharing parking or if you're if you're gaining access just driving from one lot [46:08] to another um there would have to be those similar um access easements would [46:15] carry over to whatever that new plat is okay thank you questions commissioner [46:23] Miranda just a question I ask every time so this is about the same size as 50th in [46:29] France 22 Acres yeah yes it's a big site okay it's a big site thank [46:36] you any other questions this maybe one little thing of feedback too if if anyone out there just [46:44] curious about flood risk Ed if you just Google Edina flood map there's like a great GIS kind of interactive map for [46:52] your own house or site or one like this that kind of tells the story [46:58] anyways with that we'll give the applicant team a chance to come up provide a presentation introduce [47:06] yourselves stay a while oh wait wait wait sorry one more [47:14] question so the uh Lincoln and London area that we're studying how many acres is [47:19] that I should remember that um I want to say it's 48 okay so about twice the size [47:28] okay all right I'll double check that for you I think we're good come on [47:35] up welcome appreciate you guys coming back [47:41] again it's [48:07] okay uh chair Bennett members of the commission um good to see you all again [48:14] and uh I have to say it's a pleasure to be on the front side of the agenda this time so thank you for allowing us to [48:21] present our updated Project tonight and uh additional thanks to the many of you [48:27] who have visited our site to see me and walk through it or just visit on your own time um that is still a commitment [48:35] on your part uh um my name is Sean Smith I'm with wiir I'm a member of the [48:41] project team for Southdale office partners and I am here tonight with Representatives uh from my [48:48] project team including um Pete TMO with Olympus Ventures they're our partner in [48:53] this project and Jason vow with with HJ Architects uh they'll be presenting with [49:00] me tonight Tom Lincoln with kimley horn is here as well uh on the civil and and the [49:07] site design for any technical questions such as the flooding and all of that uh that you've already asked about um I [49:14] thought it'd be good just to Simply start with our objectives on this um on this project um we really want to expand [49:21] and enhance this site as a center of employment and economic Vitality [49:28] especially as it relates to the health and wellness piece uh near the Fairview [49:33] Medical Center uh we also want an alignment of a zoning designation that reflects the [49:40] original commercial zoning intent and is uh consistent with the comprehensive [49:46] plan adjacent properties our proposed plan but it also respects the existing [49:51] buildings and the uses that are on site as well [49:57] um it balances the various desires of density within all the stakeholders that [50:02] we've talked to today we are requesting approximately 25,000 Square ft of more [50:08] building space than what's currently on the site uh this is approximately this is still under 050 F but with this [50:17] subdivision phase parking and uh zoning designation that will allow for up to [50:25] 1.0 f we also want to successfully address The [50:30] Parking Challenge of maintaining required parking for our existing users [50:35] while uh building for more heavily parked medical office and restaurant structures in this phase parking [50:42] approach uh of of the new parking ramp eliminates overp parking yet allows for [50:49] that proof of parking to accommodate the additional density we also want to incorporate [50:55] sustainable design and building strategies our plan will preserve and enhance 6600 and 6800 that's [51:03] approximately 370,000 sare ft of building that would otherwise be demolished uh we are providing storm [51:10] water treatment to 7 Acres on a site that's been that's previously mostly uh [51:17] untreated and it exceeds the required treatment volume by over 25% in [51:23] abstraction volume it respects the tree Grove along Valley View um our original sketch plan [51:31] maintained approximately 15% of that tree Grove area today our proposed plan [51:37] is is is now maintaining 90% of that additionally we have Incorporated [51:42] Edina stricter residential tree ordinance policy as Carrie talked about and that really better distributes Green [51:49] Space and trees throughout the entire site rather than it um being currently [51:55] concentrated into the one area along Valley View and since we last presented our [52:01] sketch plan to you in September we have addressed many comments from you the council and many stakeholders uh that [52:08] we'll highlight tonight while we still have the same site constraints and the requirements of our current tenants [52:14] which I'll discuss later um we've Incorporated more of the greater Southdale area design experience [52:21] guidelines and expanded accessibilities for our neighbors Greater Community our [52:26] tenants and their guests all of which have been detailed in letters that have provided in subsequent to our [52:33] application submission and are for available for [52:38] reference lastly I'd like to reiterate that our site is unique in its size and [52:44] constraints this is not an endtoend scrape of a site and brand new building where where we can um um literally um [52:54] adhere to every um current code we must accommodate the existing easements and [53:00] the commitments of the 70 businesses that occupy the three buildings that will remain on our site while some still [53:08] see the untouched parking lots to the North and the South we still desire to do more on this site in the future and [53:16] will build upon the positive changes of the plan that we're presenting tonight you um the new Interior Drive [53:24] aisle along France Avenue will allow us to maintain the needed campus [53:30] connectivity it provides circulation without leaving the site and it allows [53:35] us to build a substantially similar program or more than that of the current [53:40] 2017 PUD all while still giving you the city um the required review and approval [53:48] for any next phase this application addresses the [53:54] most challenging part of our 22 Acre Site and is also the most urgent we hope [54:01] that you see the benefits of this project in our presentation um I'll say that uh as [54:06] Jason goes through these slides the these are all a part uh of our recent submittal so hopefully you're familiar [54:12] with them uh if you want to go to the next slide Jason um I I don't think I'll talk too [54:19] much on this I think Carri did a really good job on this uh re uh the history of the rezoning but just generally note [54:25] that this was originally Zone PCD 3 and um uh we are [54:31] now requesting back to that designation the next slide um this slide [54:39] uh is really the reason why we're starting in the middle these buildings as you see them today you drive by them [54:46] quite a bit on France and Valley View they're simply past their Prime and they need and they have plenty of capital [54:51] needs we've definitely tried to study how to reuse these and um it they they're um they're really functionally [54:59] IR IR relevant if you pay attention now to this uh dotted blue line [55:05] here this is the corridor that connects all of these buildings and really makes it into that [55:11] campus um it's it provides for a few functions uh for shared use of the [55:17] various amenities within the campus for example the 40 tenants or so in 6800 [55:23] building have access and can use the the fitness center um the bike storage area [55:29] and some of the other amenities in 6600 conversely the 26 tenants in the [55:34] 6600 building can can access and and have the right to use the Conference [55:40] Centers and 6800 uh the food service that's there and also the new [55:46] um Atrium enhancements that uh we have just invested in um it also serves as a distribution [55:54] of infrastructure uh as a secondary source so um telecommunications data [56:00] fiber um access controls zoning controls and also parts of our Power Systems run [56:06] through this uh Corridor which are kind of highlighted by the easements that run [56:12] that that run into our property as well um the the corridors are what really um [56:19] I'll pause them back up so all of that needs to be maintained and is and is a big part of the reason why we're starting here and um uh why we're [56:27] positioning this building the way it is um the corridors are really what distinguish our site from other [56:33] competing single use buildings in nearby cities and we feel that that is a competitive Advantage is not only for [56:39] our site but the city of viina ADA access is currently an issue [56:45] for our entire site right now the main uh access point for that is between 6700 [56:52] building and 6750 um and so our new proposed project [56:57] really fixes a lot of this and um the Bank of America parcel as well um they [57:03] have certain rights and easements that we have to respect along with any new development that we do or [57:10] change let's stay on the slide to Quick um I also want to address um if you you [57:16] know I think we've heard a lot of comments not only from some of you but council members and neighborhood and and [57:22] just um the that we're keeping the North and the South lot these largely sea of [57:28] of parking lots I just want to point out a couple things I I think on any given [57:35] days uh the the utilization of those lots varies quite a bit in uh the time [57:41] of the day um what I want to point out though is that by uh by providing for [57:48] this project we have essentially vacated the 6700 building and the 6750 building [57:54] that's approximately 20 to 25% of all of our space and so uh prior to this plan [58:00] and even 5 six years ago those buildings are mostly full and all of that parking was being used so um just know that um [58:10] everyone's still also adapting to the changes in the work and uh the service delivery from the pandemic um so [58:16] obviously Tuesdays are different than Mondays and Fridays as as we know um [58:22] there's there's also a revolving line of vacancies in the 6600 building the 6800 [58:28] buildings that will eventually get full but I think at the end of the day um [58:33] this is really a phasing issue the the users of 6800 and 6600 really rely on [58:40] those North and South Lots respectively to access and um get employees and [58:45] guests to their sites and especially since we are taking other meaningful areas of parking away during [58:52] construction so Jason will go through but a large portion of this middle site [58:57] is going to be taken away during con during construction we simply cannot have multiple zones of construction that [59:05] would severely impact our tenants ability to access the needs of their [59:10] space uh next slide Jason I think um this slide is is is a [59:17] good demonstration for some of the site constraints that I just talked about but also some of the feedback that we've [59:23] received in that you know what appears to be a large site at 22 Acres um by [59:30] starting in the middle uh We've we've heard it loud and clear that we have to address this tree Grove and I think [59:37] we've done a really good job of that in maintaining 90% of that area um we are [59:42] also accommodating the city with that 50 foot setback along France Avenue to make way for more greater access and and some [59:49] of the desires for larger boulevards in the street Room type uh typologies um um [59:57] and then uh if you look at kind of we call this really the pinch point in needing to maintain that dotted Red Line [1:00:04] connectivity I talked about and being stuck between the 6600 and the 6800 [1:00:09] building and right now if you want to access the North or the South side and [1:00:14] you come in at the wrong point you have to go on France Avenue or Valley View to access the other side of the site so [1:00:21] really providing a north south connector is of big importance for the county the city and also us so when you add all of [1:00:28] that together what appears to be this large site it's really challenging to meet all of these in this tight confined [1:00:35] area um so I think that's the end of my portion Jason okay uh I'm going to let [1:00:42] uh the architect woo you with the design so thank [1:00:49] you well again I just want to thank you all for uh allowing us the opportunity to present um my name is Jason vano I'm [1:00:55] an architect with hga Architects and Engineers um I've had the pleasure of working with uh Southdale office [1:01:00] Partners on the site since around early 2019 so seeing uh many iterations come [1:01:05] come and go on this site um and been a part of a lot of the development here as Sean mentioned the site plan is really a [1:01:11] culmination of um actively listening to comments we've received from the City and surrounding community over the past [1:01:16] number of years again again this was like as was a case with the sketch plan presented back in November this plan [1:01:22] looks to develop about 107,000 squ ft of medical office building as well as a standalone 8,000 ft restaurant uh to [1:01:30] complement the campus of existing buildings to remain on site the incorporation of the phased parking ramp [1:01:35] will help to meet new and existing parking demands and Zoning requirements for the campus both now and in the [1:01:41] future as you can see from the lower diagram on this uh this slide as well the scale of the new buildings being [1:01:46] proposed for the development has been drastically reduced as compared to the 2017 PUD as well as 2020 sketch plans um [1:01:53] to better address Community concerns and align with the existing context of the campus Sean you can jump to the next [1:02:01] slide so the upto development plan really focuses heavily on the tree preservation around the site and [1:02:06] specifically in that West Grove um again has been mentioned uh a few times now approximately 90% of the site area [1:02:13] encompassing the tree Grove is being preserved with a new proposal this includes greater attention to uh to care [1:02:19] of the existing Grove by way of new plantings prunings and removal of Deadfall within that Grove additionally the plan voluntarily [1:02:26] incorporates the city's more aggressive future tree ordinance uh prior to its adoption into Commercial Code this [1:02:32] includes individual categorization of Heritage and preservation or Heritage and protected trees and develops [1:02:38] reforestation strategies for those displaced by the new project work as a part of the landscape design the team [1:02:43] strategized to reduce areas of turf grass and include more native grasses and plantings that minimize irrigation [1:02:50] and maintenance needs and furthermore as Sean also mentioned the updated plan enhances area water water quality by [1:02:56] treating approximately 7 acres of land while highlighting storm water management as an as an amenity with a [1:03:02] pocket park on the north side of the new M Mo additionally again the right out [1:03:08] along France has been removed uh as mentioned previously so this new uh this image [1:03:16] here which uh which Carrie pointed to as well this is a image taken on the west side of the campus it illustrates the [1:03:21] improved relationship of the medical office building to the existing mature tree Grove it also demonstrates the [1:03:27] incorporation of the Hilltop Plaza that will serve as a link to the surrounding [1:03:32] Community Sean you can jump to the next slide so the new proposal again [1:03:38] overdresses or addresses overp parking concerns by aligning to zoning code requirements through a phased parking [1:03:44] ramp approach as a proof of parking concept phase one would include a two-l ramp which is being used to exactly meet [1:03:51] the required zoning parking count for the total area of office space on the tract in order to avoid additional [1:03:56] variance requests phase two would include an additional two levels as a proof of parking and would be [1:04:02] incorporated to specifically offset parking needs for future development Elsewhere on the site the updated design of the west ramp [1:04:09] removes the north Wing proposed in the November sketch plan to better align the footprint with the existing surface lot [1:04:15] and lessen the impact on the existing trees The Hilltop Plaza was added with a Meandering path connecting back to [1:04:21] Valley View in the cornelian neighborhood to reinforce and enliven the communic Community Connection into the existing [1:04:27] Grove can jump to the next slide so as you can see the uh proposal [1:04:35] uh the proposed project um proposes multiple enhanced connections to the broader Community this includes a new [1:04:41] interrupt uninterrupted accessible internal East West pedestrian Focus connector leading from France Avenue or [1:04:48] leading from the cornelian neighborhood through the heart of the site to France Avenue and the Southdale business district Beyond additionally a new [1:04:55] public side lock along West 66 Street is introduced connecting France Avenue to Valley View and the intersection to [1:05:01] Rosland Park a buffered experience along France Avenue is created by offsetting the widen pedestrian path from the busy [1:05:07] road and incorporating a double row of trees for a more comfortable Boulevard likee experience and public gathering [1:05:13] spaces are designed within the campus such as the Hilltop Plaza Street rooms and storm water garden pocket Park [1:05:20] Bicycle friendly uh connections are also added throughout the site where bike parking is included near building entrances to to uh encourage bicycle [1:05:27] commuting and finally for vehicular traffic a new internal connector Drive which has been mentioned before is [1:05:33] created for ease of access between the North and South Parcels without having to leave the boundary of the [1:05:39] site so this image really uh demonstrates the uninterrupted East West pedestrian connector that runs between [1:05:46] 6600 and the new parking ramp here we're standing close to Valley View as you're approaching that uh pedestrian access [1:05:53] you can also see the two-level phase one ramp off to the left you can jump to the next [1:05:59] one and again as you move closer to France Avenue the new design uh [1:06:06] incorporates a uh Skyway to allow for uninterrupted pedestrian access and an [1:06:11] accessible route is created through deliberate placement of the parking ramp elevator to allows shared passage [1:06:17] between the varying levels of the site you'll see that elevator Tower just off to the left of the image here so it's a direct connection [1:06:25] uh for zoning compliance the project is proposing four variances again for consideration the M Mo uh we are [1:06:31] proposing to reduce the West facade ground level transparency to 39% versus the required 75% really the reasoning [1:06:37] for this is to help with uh building envelope performance and internal programming is being uh is being [1:06:43] considered due to the 300 foot plus setback off Valley View Road and limited views of the building due to the [1:06:50] existing tree Grove and new parking ramp that are being introduced the project also proposes that the be of a floor to floor height [1:06:57] of 20 ft versus the zoning required 20ft floor to ceiling height we believe this still meets the intent of the greater [1:07:02] Southdale design guidelines but better aligns with the medical office use as well as improving energy performance on [1:07:08] what would otherwise be wasted space finally the mob uh the project proposes the new building be 52 feet [1:07:14] tall verus versus the height overlay District maximum of 48 ft again this is to better align with the context of the [1:07:20] existing buildings as well for the restaurant uh we are again proposing that the floor to floor height [1:07:26] be lowered to 18 ft in this case this is again to better align the restaurant uh building use while improving energy [1:07:32] performance due to the large glazing percentages also required under the zoning [1:07:39] code you can jump ahead uh yep perfect so finally with the building design when [1:07:44] looking at the design of the buildings themselves the massing is intended to honor the the greater sdale design guidelines by reinforcing the connection [1:07:51] to the public realm at the ground level an elevated first floor height and increased transparency comined with the [1:07:57] enhanced landscape and public space along France Avenue Foster a connection to their surrounding District the design [1:08:03] of the medical building uh both directly connects and complements the pet of the existing campus Additionally the white [1:08:10] brick material selection is intended to reinforce a direct link to the South to the nearby Southdale Medical Campus to [1:08:17] help strengthen the perception of Southdale as a unified medical destination the facade itself is [1:08:23] primarily brick with vertical glazing and accent elements that creates a composition allowing for visibility and [1:08:28] flexibility for the multi-tenant medical office users while incorporating this vertical facade texture takes cues from [1:08:35] the existing 66 and 6800 buildings to reinforce the design of a cohesive unified [1:08:41] campus uh I guess just to close out um on behalf of saltdale office partners and our integrated design team um I'd [1:08:48] like to thank you all for your time and we look forward to making ourselves available for any questions or comments you may [1:08:54] have thank you thank you very much great presentation thank you for coming here being very prepared and providing all [1:09:01] this to us I look around any Commissioners have questions for the [1:09:06] applicant team and again like just general comments will save toward the end after [1:09:12] the public hearing as we deliberate but this time it's pretty much reserved for questions all right commissioner Miranda [1:09:20] yeah could you go back to the picture of the uh stair staircase the outside staircase [1:09:26] so how is that cyclist you know how is he using that [1:09:31] staircase so if you look off to the right hand side of that stair you'll see a small gutter detail that's uh created [1:09:39] in the staircase itself um we do this a lot in urban environments where uh the biker can actually walk up the stair [1:09:46] with the bike next to them and actually use that as a accessible path through the uh through the stair itself thank [1:09:52] you I would tell i j Jason um that supposed [1:09:58] to was supposed to be a [1:10:07] fat that's commissioner Padia thank you for your presentation um [1:10:14] a few quick questions you mentioned the new restaurant's going to be 8,000 square feet what is the current restaurant tabern on France how big is [1:10:23] that um they are currently um uh I'd say about the same size there's there's a [1:10:28] different way to measure uh buildings um and uh they're they're approximately the [1:10:34] same size not much change there um I can ask you the question I suppose about the [1:10:41] trees what happens to the trees you're removing um we have we don't we have not [1:10:48] thought about that yes but we are definitely open for a creative use on those generally what happens is our um [1:10:55] um um vendor will um have a list of folks that they um that will uh want [1:11:03] various tree species for wood projects or firewood or or um we even um a lot of [1:11:09] times when we clear out that area right now um we just re reuse that as mulch for to stay on the [1:11:17] site um and also as far as the trees go um you mentioned [1:11:25] okay um 125 or I saw in the information 125 [1:11:32] overstory trees removed and then 151 replaced and you might have mentioned [1:11:37] this and I apologize if I missed it um your 151 you're talking about [1:11:44] replacing is that all in the area where those oak trees are because you're putting a lot on the France Avenue the [1:11:50] new Boulevard you're talking about so I'm trying to understand if the trees [1:11:55] you're talking about here represent the trees throughout the entire development [1:12:01] or just um on the Valley View [1:12:08] side so yeah the the trees that are mentioned as far as uh demolition are for the entire scope of work for the [1:12:15] project site um specifically in the tree Grove there are um a handful of trees that that are being removed um [1:12:21] specifically uh for the addition of the parking ramp although we did try to minimize that again as closely as [1:12:27] possible um and tried to really align that ramp with the existing surface lots that that's back there on the west side [1:12:33] of the site okay thank you and then as far as what goes into that tree area um if are [1:12:41] you using the pocket park and The Hilltop Plaza interchangeably or those two separate parts of the [1:12:48] development the as far as the terminology for that right so the the [1:12:54] pocket park is more so on the north side of the uh medical office building if you look to the plan right I guess of the [1:13:01] medical office building that's where we're considering the pocket park in storm water garden um it is uh more of a [1:13:07] natural kind of landscaped area there and The Hilltop Plaza is a slightly more programmed kind of uh Community Link [1:13:14] against space that would be uh programmed within the uh the tree Grove to sort of activate that tree Grove [1:13:28] uh you haven't mentioned lighting at all is there going to be any change to the lighting we do have an extensive we are [1:13:36] working with our within our design um Lighting Group we do have a uh extensive lighting plan that we're working with in [1:13:42] order to adequately light the site um they are working within edina's zoning [1:13:47] codes and um and uh the requirements that are that are within the site yeah so you can't say yet whether or not [1:13:55] there's going to be change to or where that change might take place specifically we'll be lighting um [1:14:03] generally lighting the parking areas uh for for adequate lighting of um evening [1:14:09] parking and things like that or early hour parking um and then The Pedestrian ways we are also uh focusing uh [1:14:17] pedestrian scale lighting along say the street room and the connecting uh link from Valley View the Cornelia [1:14:23] neighborhood through the through the site um so we are also addressing uh lighting as far as The Pedestrian scale [1:14:30] is concerned okay thank you I just also add to we we we had a another [1:14:35] neighborhood open house the other night and um you know we've been with this project since about 2008 um we have um [1:14:44] proactively changed out various parking lot lights already to do the more [1:14:49] downward um lights at at the request of a lot of our comments so um we are activ [1:14:55] listening to our neighbors and we we do want to mitigate that light um uh noise [1:15:01] um for for the Neighbors so uh and then last area [1:15:10] um how do you determine that there's a need for uh medical office and can you [1:15:17] educate us or me um about exactly what [1:15:22] kind will go there and why there isn't sufficient medical space um in other [1:15:29] buildings yeah I would say um this is very um similar to kind of what you're seeing in the general office space the [1:15:35] general housing space um you know in this area there really hasn't been a lot [1:15:40] of new buildings built since um you know I think probably the 90s with Centennial [1:15:46] Lakes um and that's more of an office building but if you look at really medical office there hasn't really been [1:15:51] a new state of the U state-ofthe-art medical office building so we we feel that this is meeting that [1:15:57] I think this aligns with I I know that this aligns with the chamber and the city um um expansion of the health and [1:16:05] wellness Corridor along France Avenue um so you know some of those um you know [1:16:11] just upgraded power the ability to control vibration for lab space and [1:16:17] testing um I think there this will be a lot of clinical space as well so um [1:16:24] that's that's what we division here in the medical office we do have a lot of medical office space in um 6600 a lot of [1:16:32] our tenants in that provides some sort of medical office space but that is more of a um lighter less uh um less intense [1:16:40] treatment uh um uh for their services so you anticipating that this would be uh [1:16:46] physici offices and things like that or Labs I'm trying to also ascertain the kind of um the employment opportunities [1:16:53] that will be provided um there will be a lot of physicians in this building so um there will be treating patients um and [1:17:00] um there will be lab spaces and and exam rooms yep uh and I noticed too that I I just [1:17:07] looked it up there's about 70,000 square feet of medical office space available just along the France [1:17:13] Corridor um and um it's fairly competitively priced [1:17:20] and obviously you're aware of all of this and um you you're taking all that [1:17:26] into account and and you still ample opportunity we do and um you know that's [1:17:33] for all of our leasing that we're doing a lot of the inquiries are from medical users uh that want a lease Bas not only [1:17:41] in the 6600 building but um part of the reason why we're building this is to to [1:17:46] accommodate a user for this building too thank you for answering all my questions [1:17:55] M Smith yeah sure thank you [Music] [1:18:01] um great presentation I like the visuals that that Al helps put things into [1:18:06] context so I appreciate that um just to pick up a little bit on the on the [1:18:12] medical office building question here um I'm just curious like if it kind of Mak [1:18:19] sense right if if you have a medical office you don't want it too close to the street noise stuff like that I guess [1:18:25] it um but if you do design a building to be medical office property just curious [1:18:32] if it had to be repurposed for a different use just like a regular office or maybe a hotel or something like that [1:18:39] what does that look like in terms of the effort and the transformation that's going to be necessary to convert it away [1:18:45] from a medical office into a different use I mean I generally speaking this is [1:18:52] a this is a box with three floors that has uh that's providing a lot more power [1:18:57] opportunity um and so uh I think that that that ability exists um there's [1:19:03] redundant power um there is greater um air flow and mechanical equipment as [1:19:11] well um and it um so to the extent that there's a lesser use for that I think um [1:19:16] we can certainly accommodate that but we can also accommodate that next tech user as well with with this new [1:19:22] state-of-the-art building got in general yeah in general it's built to be a multi-tenant office [1:19:27] building um just with some like Sean was saying some upgrades to some of the systems and things like that to help [1:19:33] support um medical use essentially get easily downgraded if you [1:19:38] need to absolutely like it's like buying a Mac with everything but yes you email that's right [1:19:44] okay um all right very good um the connecting [1:19:50] corridors I think I saw in so of visuals with the bike um I'm guessing this is going to be like a [1:19:56] Skyway type system so it's going to be completely covered you can walk through and connect all the buildings during the winter time okay correct so you don't [1:20:02] have to go outside y all right um I know you mentioned water mitigation [1:20:10] or storm mitigation it's going to cover 7 Acres just elaborate a little bit more on what that solution looks [1:20:19] like yeah Tom I'll let our civil engineer talk about that [1:20:26] good evening Commissioners my name is Tom Lincoln with kimley horn we are civil engineering Consultants um uh [1:20:33] working with wiir and Olympus on this project and um the stormwater management [1:20:41] um uh plan is was submitted with the application um so we have a [1:20:47] comprehensive storm water management plan that's treating uh as as was said [1:20:52] Seven Acres um that's primarily through infiltration as a BMP so we have uh [1:21:01] three underground infiltration uh systems and one surface and the surface [1:21:06] is the pocket park uh infiltration system um so that that's the treatment [1:21:13] method we're we're uh going to be submitting to the NM Creek Watershed district and meeting all their [1:21:20] regulations in terms of three things rate control um volume [1:21:26] control and water quality improvements so that that's the plan and [1:21:32] I think I want to address the flood plane issue um we are responding to a [1:21:38] study that was done for the city in 2017 um which identified three areas of [1:21:45] localized flooding on the site so it's flooding that results from inadequate [1:21:52] capacity of the storm sewer system that ultimately drains to Lake corelia um it [1:21:58] backs up onto this site in in 100e events and I remember when I first started with this project I had a there [1:22:06] was a photograph looking out at the ponding that occurs on the parking lot sites um so we're very aware of that um [1:22:14] this project is not touching there's three areas that that pond in a 100-year [1:22:19] event um the the southernly area which is the largest the middle which is near [1:22:26] our project and then the Northerly um uh uh flood plane issue all those have been [1:22:33] studied um and have elevations associated with them um what we are [1:22:41] doing with volume extraction so what we're doing as as we're required is to [1:22:47] reduce the volume coming off of the site into the storm system and Valley View um [1:22:54] we are actually exceeding significantly the the um uh the volume that's required [1:23:01] uh for uh it's it's 1.1 Ines of rainfall over the impervious surface so we're [1:23:08] treating and and um uh retaining more than is required that will have effect [1:23:15] ultimately on the current localized flooding that's occurring in Valley View [1:23:22] um so we we displace a little with grading of that volume in the the middle [1:23:29] um flood plane area but we're replacing with underground storage and some surface uh mitigation so we are [1:23:37] exceeding the amount of uh volume that we're reducing by some localized [1:23:47] grading so I can answer any other questions related to flood plane storm [1:23:52] water I think you uh covered it pretty well so thank you very much for doing that just a couple more here and then [1:23:59] I'll pass it down to the other [1:24:05] Commissioners yeah yeah why don't you linger Tom sorry while you were up there [1:24:11] um can you clarify if you're when you're saying you're um displacing or uh more [1:24:17] than required is that just for the proposed area or is that uh speaking about the entirety of the site [1:24:25] so we're addressing the impacted area of the site which is about seven acres okay [1:24:30] and and we are required by The Watershed to um meet the requirements for those [1:24:36] areas but we are actually providing more in this plan then what's required for [1:24:41] the Seven Acres that's correct are can you talk to me about what that means for [1:24:48] future development or how we think about storm water for the entirety of the parcel I know we're talking about [1:24:54] subdividing it but if we didn't do that can you speak to what you're doing those those future redevelopments uh will be [1:25:02] required to do additional storm water management uh and that would be required by the city and the [1:25:09] Watershed okay thank [1:25:14] you any other questions for Mr Lincoln or all right turn back Quincy thanks [1:25:22] thank you uh commissioner that's a good question there good for [1:25:28] clarification um parking so I mentioned a little bit when director Teague was [1:25:34] giving the overview there was that visual where it showed you know in in [1:25:39] subdivision one I was trying to figure out what the arrow meant um if you just [1:25:45] talk about that and if it means that any future development on that site the [1:25:50] parking would not be a new parking lot or a new parking structure but it's going to get absorbed into that structure is that in effect [1:25:57] what's happening yeah so I I addressed this um by you know this site is [1:26:04] essentially properly parked today you don't see that like I mentioned there's some vacancy both just natural in the [1:26:10] existing buildings but also we we purposely emptied out the two middle buildings um [1:26:18] so um you know our users will it's it it [1:26:23] comes down to the phasing issue that I mentioned before so if we want to build anything for example in this PO on this [1:26:31] white pad right here um we would need to build parking [1:26:37] structures first to move those cars that need to park there off that lot so that [1:26:44] we can build on it so that's really the reason why we would uh that we're seeking the additional of up to uh two [1:26:51] more decks does that make sense or yeah so if I [1:26:59] understand correctly what's proposed here for the S Acres that's the parking for the S Acres that showing here but [1:27:06] you have the capacity to increase that two more levels to to absorb any kind of [1:27:11] additional parking if we're going to redevelop different part of the site correct yep and and we would have to [1:27:18] build that first before doing anything um to be able to uh displace those cars [1:27:26] off that site first so that we can then start any type of construction activity [1:27:31] so just on that point um so what this is what is what this does not what this [1:27:37] does not mean is that if a new tenant Builds on subdivision one they will need [1:27:44] to figure out their own parking for that division so this doesn't this parking here doesn't absorb [1:27:51] it for the whole site and can just keep going up and absorb it for the whole site but it's just temporary and this new tenant would have [1:27:57] to figure that out themselves once you subdivide it yep that's that's yeah so [1:28:03] by removing land that um our users are currently parking on we have to replace [1:28:09] that the the next phase would have to in incorporate all parking that you would [1:28:15] have to consider as part of your review and approval for that gotcha all right thank you I'll mention just quickly I I [1:28:22] know that uh just a couple metrics that are a little bit helpful to kind of understand the scope of the site here too uh currently provided on the site is [1:28:28] 1521 stalls um and if you consider that we're tearing down the 6700 6750 [1:28:34] building um and we're adding 20 uh 25% or 25,000 Square fet um what we are [1:28:41] proposing to park is 1555 stalls so we are only adding 34 more stalls basically [1:28:48] as far as what's what's parked today in order to accommodate a much greater volume of uh of office [1:29:02] space any more are you good for now good for now sure all right commissioner [1:29:11] day okay so we'll continue on the parking discussion um I think I read [1:29:16] somewhere that you're a little limited on underground parking availability because of the storm water issue and because of the flooding is that that's [1:29:22] correct that is correct that's that's what made our current that's part of the [1:29:28] reason of what makes our current um 2017 PUD a little um um [1:29:37] uh infusible essentially okay so as far as the parking structure [1:29:44] garage goes right and the ability to add on to that in the future should you want [1:29:50] to uh develop the north side of the site is there thought been given to doing [1:29:55] that you know immediately in order to be able to get rid of some of the surface [1:30:01] parking on both the North and South Side soon after completion right rather than to wait and to see [1:30:08] right build that build that additional parking capacity right away and then be able to improve connectivity through the [1:30:15] site because right now what I see is a very centralized little Hub that is surrounded by two Seas of parking on the [1:30:22] North and South Side the con ity on the south side is pretty poor and north side [1:30:27] is pretty poor as well I mean good connectivity in the middle of the site but as as far as it concern concerns the [1:30:33] rest of the development right you're pretty isolated there and to me it doesn't seem like an in particularly [1:30:39] inviting place for people to make their way through the site right now as it stands so just wondering if any [1:30:46] discussion has been you know directed at that possibility or or what your thoughts are on that so I might um [1:30:54] disagree with you a little bit the area that we're proposing to build on currently we've made a lot of changes [1:31:00] that address site connectivity but I do understand the the concern about not um [1:31:06] building or not having anything programmed here for the for the um North or the South Side um you know I I I I [1:31:15] think that's kind of one of the unique areas of this PUD I I believe we are the [1:31:20] largest PUD in the city of Edina and I think what you're finding with a large scale project like this and a specific [1:31:27] PUD that has to get built out over the number of years it's really hard to [1:31:32] prescribe a full plan for this project when we know the markets change and everything so I think this really does [1:31:40] give the city and us the ability to kind of make way for the future of of that I [1:31:46] I do know that this has been a concern um and so what we did is we did overlay [1:31:52] our current PUD or our our proposed plan into the current PUD and I don't know is there to [1:31:59] to access the [1:32:05] camera because I know a few people have talked about this oh here we [1:32:12] go there we so if you can see that so [1:32:18] really um all of this connection here all of this connection here I I think [1:32:25] um future phases uh would still want to incorporate this as a main ESS and [1:32:31] continue that further expansion of pedestrian bike as well is that can you guys see it okay [1:32:38] okay so yeah so we would still so this this really does tie in with a a lot of the elements that um folks still like [1:32:46] about the 2017 pudd um that's that's not to say we're going to build exactly on [1:32:52] this but I think it it does show you an example of what can get programmed what's what's already programmed that we [1:32:58] can accommodate with this [1:33:07] proposal for questions I'll I'll wait for comments thank you commissioner bornon [1:33:13] got anything not many just does the [1:33:21] um why does the parking structure need to encroach into the tree [1:33:27] Grove just in general as far as the design of the building um there is a [1:33:32] required fire distance between the parking structure and the south side or I guess the uh apologies the north side [1:33:39] of 6800 um you'll see that we've actually widened that that pedestrian [1:33:44] walkway to 20 feet and this is from feedback of from the fir Marshall that we've had um numerous conversations with [1:33:50] them sort of working through the site that sort of sets your your South Edge I guess of the parking structure and in [1:33:56] order to get two bays of parking within uh the parking structure and and make it a feasible parking structure um it [1:34:04] really kind of sets your boundaries then at that point for where the north edge of the parking structure would be again [1:34:09] we're squeezing as as tightly to to the um South Boundary as we can in order to make that uh that that parking structure [1:34:17] impact on those existing trees as minimal as possible okay and then thanks and then I think you guys mentioned [1:34:23] there some somebody else did but I might have missed it like do it does it say anywhere like how many trees are coming [1:34:28] down in this proposal and whether they're are they like mature Oaks or what kind of trees are they there is um [1:34:34] within the actual development application on I can find the page here and maybe we [1:34:40] can put it underneath there as well I do have a tree study actually [1:34:46] that I brought [1:34:57] so here you can see the uh the total number of apologies here you can see the total number of uh Heritage trees being [1:35:03] removed are 12 um those are going to be the uh the pink trees on site and then [1:35:09] 30 protected trees are being removed so a total of 42 trees that fall within that uh that protected category um but [1:35:17] then you can see the voluntary replacement of trees um we are replacing it with 126 trees on site [1:35:24] then I probably should know this but I don't what what's a Heritage tree and what's a protected [1:35:30] tree it it falls within uh some of the zoning ordinance uh I guess [1:35:36] categorization um it has to do with the caliper of the the sort of diameter of the tree itself um the tree trunk itself [1:35:43] and there's a different caliper for um say deciduous trees versus coniferous [1:35:48] trees um and so that that that's really kind of signifies those heritage trees [1:35:54] are slightly larger trees um if you think about it that way and protected trees are sort of mediumsized trees in [1:35:59] most cases okay [1:36:05] thanks thank you commissioner phel can you tell me the elevation [1:36:13] difference between Val View and France Avenue it's roughly almost exactly one [1:36:20] story I guess one typical story for the office and so it's it's around 14t 13 14t okay between the two and [1:36:29] um and I I appreciate the pedestrian access from the West to the east or [1:36:38] through right the middle um that was one of my concerns from last time [1:36:44] um so I'm wondering about um the rest of [1:36:50] the sidewalks and maybe you can you you started to talk about sidewalks on the [1:36:56] North side on 66th Street um and you've got the one diagram with the sidebox I [1:37:02] wanted you to kind of talk um those through with me because I'm wondering about [1:37:08] um any ways to walk through the site without having to take the [1:37:14] steps yeah absolutely um we have included [1:37:21] enhanced this back under for still using the camera here we have included um enhanced experiences uh you'll see uh [1:37:29] We've we've added a sort of Boulevard like experience with with trees that buffer a sidewalk along the drive on the [1:37:35] the north side of the site um and all of this is sort of looped together within a within the sidewalk um Network [1:37:41] essentially um these these sidewalks that move alongside the the building itself um help to navigate around the [1:37:48] buildings and then the sidewalk here that moves uh north towards 6600 [1:37:53] would Connect into the existing sidewalk that moves its way around the uh the north side of 6600 so we're we're [1:38:00] connecting into the existing sidewalk infrastructure um in order to help maintain those connections that are [1:38:06] maintain and enhance I should say those connections that exist already um around the sides of the the buildings [1:38:11] themselves and I'm also wondering if you come across the [1:38:17] um The Pedestrian across valy View Road um right there yes if you go along there [1:38:24] and if you kind of head south um yep all the way to the south side of the 6800 [1:38:30] building is there any way of kind of coming around and being able to go to France Avenue [1:38:38] now from there without kind of going on steps currently because of the grade [1:38:45] change and because of the way that the site plan exists there is a set of steps that exist along the building right here [1:38:51] um and that's because of a very steep grade change between basically where this where the restaurant patio uh note [1:38:57] is made and down to this kind of first island here um it drops almost the whole [1:39:02] about 10 ft at that point so it's a it's a pretty significant grade change which is why the the steps are included in [1:39:09] this part of the uh part of the the site that is again why we're trying to create an accessible route through the center [1:39:16] of the site that would that would be an accessible route to get between those two levels of the site so having an [1:39:21] elevator that's associated did with the parking structure [1:39:28] correct um and there was some talk about doing a [1:39:34] sidewalk on 66 Street would that be now or that'd be now [1:39:43] yep when you did the overlay on this current layout versus the Pud from 2017 [1:39:51] and there's the strengthen yeah those two strengthened kind of streets um east west south of [1:39:57] 6800 and the the diagonal one that goes on the North side there [1:40:02] yeah um I really like how they break down the [1:40:08] block the massive block um I'm really interested in seeing those reinforced [1:40:13] somehow hint my question for director Teague about if this is replatted can we [1:40:19] kind of strengthen those to East West connections would you would [1:40:27] you and I guess this is my question is for Sean um would you be open to some [1:40:33] kind of con contingency to make sure that those those Street [1:40:39] Scapes were part of the future [1:40:45] plan um I think um as it relates to this application um um I we'd have to look at [1:40:54] it um I think uh you know we it's just at some point we have to [1:41:00] put a limit of construction on this and um and also not tie up too much of our [1:41:05] site under one phase um so um I would I would say within um um this current [1:41:12] phase I think that would be tough to do but um we are working with um [1:41:19] um bill neindorf on potential other ways to uh incorporate more um uh funds for [1:41:28] other access and all that stuff so we're we've been very open to that discussion [1:41:33] and I think that's not asking you to do those pieces now because of the cost but um as part of [1:41:41] this replatting kind of making sure that there's ability to do those in the future and I appreciate you're talking [1:41:47] with Bill new andorf about those opportunities too because I think that breaking down that big block is of [1:41:54] benefit um to the city and one of the goals of the Southdale area guidelines [1:42:00] is breaking up the massive blocks yeah and and I I think we've done a really [1:42:05] good job with the portion that we have done um we've made a lot of changes so [1:42:10] um and um we we just always knew that this was always going to be part of a multiphase process so I um we do share [1:42:18] that and we've definitely Incorporated that into our uh first pH here okay and I appreciate that and I'm also sensitive [1:42:25] to the fact that the landscape um um real estate landscape has completely [1:42:32] changed from 2017 to now and we you know the pandemic in the midst of that and [1:42:38] still dealing with that [1:42:45] um but wherever we can kind of strengthen those South area guidelines I [1:42:50] think that's important so then I have a couple oh as part of the independent plots of the [1:42:57] replatting what do you see as future options for that north side and south [1:43:03] side yeah I think um if if there's anything that's taught us um about this [1:43:09] planning process from 2016 2017 it's the market is changing quicker and quicker [1:43:16] um and I think if if I were to talk about it today I think uh medical lot [1:43:22] more this the success of this project will lead to more jobs more medical office on that north side and kind of uh [1:43:29] be closer to that um uh Fairview Southdale campus I I think that's a natural fit I think we've always [1:43:35] envisioned that um believe me it's really easy to put a Shake Shack on there or whatever it happens to be I [1:43:41] mean we could I mean right like we have purposely held off because this is part of a larger plan and um we understand [1:43:49] that there's a lot of value on that on on that North lot but that's really where we see that transitioning from [1:43:54] this new development that we're doing today northward and then um as you look [1:44:00] at our professional office building in 6800 all the way to the South I think that is kind of more of a lifestyle um [1:44:07] Wing where where we're getting into more of the South Del mall and all the big plans that they're planning to do the [1:44:14] galleria shopping and all that and so I think that could be some sort of a mixed use whether it's living um or um you [1:44:21] know uh um other professional office or some sort of service retail something [1:44:27] like that and I'm just going to let everybody know because I did take you up [1:44:32] on your offer and I did go out and walk the site um cu the previous plan that [1:44:37] came out hinted at the sidewalk that went through the east west but I wasn't the [1:44:42] reason I went out and and met with them is because I wanted to make sure that there was a connection all exterior and [1:44:48] not having to go through a building um from um valy view all the way to France [1:44:54] Avenue so um yes and and we talked about [1:45:00] that further and I really that was my goal of of that and walking that site with you so I appreciate you're taking [1:45:06] the time and walking me through it thank you y thank [1:45:14] you um hi guys uh one quick question on a topic that has already been talked [1:45:20] about a lot the East West Connection can you explain to me the elevator and the parking deck and how that sort of helps [1:45:27] with the stairs or you know if you can't use the stairs did I hear that that location was somehow significant maybe I [1:45:34] just misunderstood yeah absolutely so ideally if we were to lay out this parking [1:45:39] structure and we weren't worried about a East West pedestrian connector this this stair Tower would likely want to be in [1:45:45] this corner to to be associated with the entry to the medical office building we made an intentional move to push that to [1:45:51] this corner um so that people that are walking along the the walkway here um [1:45:57] are able to actually enter in underneath that Skyway come up into the elevator [1:46:03] Tower and then exit out of the elevator Tower onto the uh the upper Street room [1:46:08] um closet space and so this is a it's it's keeping that accessible route um [1:46:15] while still allowing for um us to mitigate the gray change that's happening with a staircase again if we [1:46:21] were to we looked at ramping and things like that a ramp would be about 230 ft [1:46:26] long um and so if you think about that compared to a football field it's like two3 over two-thirds of a football field [1:46:32] basically which is pretty unmanageable in a lot of ways for um for a ramp to be [1:46:38] to work that that 14 foot grade change basically um thank you a couple other [1:46:44] questions on areas we haven't touched on this on grade parking behind the medical building that's in front of the I think [1:46:51] you're calling it The Hilltop area why is that there how does that [1:46:56] relate to the access to the underground parking I was just confused and I think [1:47:02] it makes uh the entrance chaotic so I'm sure there's a reason but I I [1:47:09] was yeah um access is really um um drop [1:47:14] off access is really critical uh for patients that'll be coming through so um [1:47:20] really that is to um have a lot of uh reserved immediate patient uh [1:47:25] short-term parking uh Andor drop off for that uh user and as [1:47:31] it connects to the um the underground it it does not connect that's that's a [1:47:37] surface lot but you would access it through is that black line than a retaining [1:47:43] wall that dark black line in between the drive nope to the right of your finger to the right here yes that that that's a [1:47:50] retaining wall that actually um mitigates the the the the difference between this on grade which is at the [1:47:56] same grade as France Avenue um if you compare it that way which is the same grade as the medical office building and then the drive that comes through here [1:48:02] is actually lowered at that Valley View level um so about 14 ft down in order to make that access into the underground [1:48:09] parking below the medical office building and we wanted patient drop off [1:48:14] on the back side in addition to the front side of the building yeah I think um you know there's there's going to be [1:48:21] critical access on the front side of the building but um U you know there's going to be multi-tenant users in this [1:48:27] building as well so um we we want to provide that optionality for um because [1:48:33] um you know um I think uh the user that will be um utilizing most of this [1:48:40] building or about a third of this building will be um wanting access in [1:48:45] that back area um for their patients uh drop off so that they're not so that we [1:48:52] can really keep keep that France aide for other users um for quick [1:48:58] access okay I'm thinking about The Pedestrian experience there as well you [1:49:03] showed the one photo of the people having lunch you've got a not particularly attractive parking deck um [1:49:10] I definitely see there's an opportunity to do you know a skin or a facade to make that a more either public art or or [1:49:18] less unattractive to look at but then you have this reasonably large parking lot it just continues to eat away at the [1:49:25] public engagement in the space um and then I'm wondering if we could talk a little bit about Tavern on [1:49:32] France point2 whatever if it's the same restaurant or another restaurant how are deliveries and trash pickup happening at [1:49:40] that restaurant I want to switch to the computer screen I feel like that's easier [1:49:45] yeah lovely so where are those happening so if you look on I guess the right side [1:49:51] of the uh the restaurant right now or the planned north side of the restaurant there's another 20 foot wide um drive [1:49:58] that would be along that side that's again for um something that we've worked with the fire marshall for fire access [1:50:03] to that kind of critical corner of all those buildings coming together um but that would also allow for a screened um [1:50:12] uh trash area for uh the the restaurant itself and so so you're going to have a [1:50:17] semi back into that to do deliveries and deliveries deliveries with likely be [1:50:23] happening at the curb cut along the um France Avenue side of that building so you can see that we've we have a drop [1:50:29] off curb cut there that would allow for um for for trucks and things like that to [1:50:36] pull up we also have the uh the striped area that's out um in front of [1:50:42] 6800 um that's kind of at the corner between 6800 um that would allow for uh [1:50:47] smaller trucks and things like that to to make drop offs and uh access the back side of the building building for uh the [1:50:54] kitchen area it looked like on your plans that the backa house kitchen door was on that um I guess the east west [1:51:02] facing little path that you said that the fire department yep um so is that it [1:51:10] notes on the pl's open area enclosure I guess where I'm getting is In addition to having the challenge of the stairs [1:51:16] you're now your pedestrian walk is adjacent to your grease your trash your [1:51:21] your trucks possibly backing up and unloading um and what are the mitigations to protect the public [1:51:29] enjoyment of of the East West walk which is clearly part of the conversation yeah absolutely we're doing a lot of [1:51:35] landscape we've been very carefully Landscaping that area um including trees and uh and shrubs for uh to help screen [1:51:43] that that drive specifically we also um are intending to reuse um some large [1:51:50] existing Limestone blocks that are being used as paining uh features on the um that West kind of curved parking lot [1:51:57] that exists on site today those will be seat walls that'll be located um sort of along that street Room Corridor there um [1:52:04] to help again break up the the perception between what is the sort of backa House of the restaurant and the uh [1:52:11] the more public Street room face of the of the building but uh primarily it's going to be screened with with [1:52:17] Landscaping so softscaping dorky question where's the grease inter Interceptor collector going [1:52:23] to be we would have to work specifically yeah we're working specifically with the [1:52:28] uh the restaurant design team and so um that is something that we'll be we'll be working with but it would likely be [1:52:35] within that uh that trash enclosure and so there would be a door on the exterior to not be out in the open there [1:52:45] okay a great question by the way yeah I like that um love the bike access um on [1:52:53] the stairs is there signage that you've used in the past when you've uh had [1:52:58] these on properties that help people understand what that is yeah we absolutely um we've we've used signage [1:53:05] to help uh signify sort of wayfinding and areas to to note where that can [1:53:11] happen um I know as far as the ownership can is concerned there's there's also ways for them to to help sort of [1:53:17] simplify this commissioner felt uh mentioned our meeting and in her meeting she had uh talked about wayfinding as a [1:53:25] profession it really is I mean wayfinding is a challenge and that's I mean really what we're doing currently [1:53:33] today is investing in 6800 because right now it is really hard to um navigate our [1:53:38] site especially when you don't when when you have to go off our site you know because as a patient you're you're a [1:53:44] firsttime patient you're coming either from 62 or 494 and you park at 6800 lot [1:53:49] or the you know so it is really challenging and and we have had kind of laughed about you know you could put a [1:53:56] sign you know right in front of your face and there people just still not will follow that sign so way um we way [1:54:04] finding will be a part of our uh plan here um and as they uh specifically [1:54:09] address bikes um yeah I think we can um that's uh that's something a part of the [1:54:16] public or our our common area signage package we we can include just [1:54:21] intuitively it's also um as far as the the placement of the the bike parking we [1:54:26] are locating those near primary entrances to the building and things like that so so users of the building will um hopefully start to recognize [1:54:34] that as an amenity to the to the site and start to use that bik commuting as a as a secondary Community Source um and [1:54:40] thank you for mentioning wayf finding uh I think my last question is trying to understand um I work with seniors for a [1:54:48] living so um way finding is very important and you're building a medical off office building our population [1:54:54] continues to age I imagine some of your tenants may be uh adjacent to are helping uh geriatric residents who often [1:55:02] walk slower have diminished Vision Walkers scooters all of those um I know [1:55:08] you have a tenant who wants parking back there but as I look through how people [1:55:13] will walk through this site um the cars coming in and out of that back lot you're going to have to cross traffic [1:55:19] path multiple times and then you're going to have to cross on the West Side [1:55:26] um the entrance into that parking garage I'm both concerned about the confusion [1:55:33] that that may present for seniors the distances that that may present for anyone with any sort of Mobility [1:55:38] impairment and honestly just the traffic pattern um [1:55:44] so also if your car comes drop you off how are you turning around without another car backing up it just seems [1:55:50] very tight and chaotic and I'm wondering how you guys thought through that um and [1:55:56] maybe if there's any thoughts you have on that I think [1:56:02] um we are providing a canopy access outside [1:56:08] um with the intent of minimizing um the impact in that tree [1:56:14] Grove it's um it's a tight line that we're trying to walk as well um so um we [1:56:20] do need that um drop off I think those those patients will be more so dropped [1:56:27] off uh as as opposed to driving themselves but and that is really part [1:56:32] of the reason um commissioner Bornstein uh to further answer your question about [1:56:37] why they need to place the parking back there I mean these are medical patients that need to be close to the parking to [1:56:44] that building so I guess one other thing to note is that um you'll notice a a slight uh [1:56:51] change in coloration of the of the outside of these entrances [1:56:57] um actually intentional if you look at the where it's labeled mob entry um this [1:57:03] is actually um a raised sort of Plaza experience that's again to help mitigate [1:57:09] the speed of traffic moving through this this uh North South Corridor and it would be a say a stamped concrete or [1:57:15] something like that that would have some sort of texture to give it again the feeling of more of a plaza to for people [1:57:20] to slow down and to understand that this is a place of of drop off or a place of importance um that would be carried [1:57:27] through to the uh the west side of the building again using a textural [1:57:32] difference or coloration difference within the uh the streetcape itself and we are also looking at landscape buffers [1:57:39] on the um on the sides of the the walkway here as well to help make that experience more inviting as you're as [1:57:45] you're moving from the uh the West Entry to the medical office building through to that Hilltop Plaza um the onr parking [1:57:52] itself it does have a uh turnaround so a one-way turnaround so you would be able [1:57:57] to um circumnavigate this without needing to um I guess what we call kind [1:58:03] of a hammerhead backup um condition um so you would be able to circumnavigate this and come back through the parking [1:58:09] structure again what we're seeing in this in this site plan is that may be a bit confusing is that we are seeing the [1:58:15] upper levels of the future phases and so you're not seeing that direct connection through the the parking but um that is [1:58:22] is in the uh if you look at the floor plans on the on the package there that'll show it a little bit clearer so [1:58:27] just so I'm understanding if I'm coming to the medical office building to visit this particular tenant Google Maps is [1:58:33] going to take me down Valley View enter on the west side at the top there and [1:58:39] then come around come underneath through from The Hilltop Plaza P1 as it's shown [1:58:45] over a textured stamped concrete queue you're going to drop somebody off and [1:58:52] then you're going to go around and go park yourself wherever correct correct [1:58:57] the the the idea of the parking area out here is again um some really close accessible parking for for anyone that [1:59:05] needs that and then um again the parking out here was intended to be more short-term parking kind of drop off [1:59:11] parking and stuff like that to make that again as close to the entrance as possible for people that need that uh [1:59:17] that accessibility near the entry [1:59:22] hey thank you all right [1:59:28] um just want to say thank you for coming back our feedback last go around wasn't [1:59:34] the most positive as you know so being brave to come back and make some changes we really appreciate it um you got a a [1:59:42] challenging set of constraints um and I think you've answered most of my questions I guess I [1:59:50] have maybe some higher level ones that you may have touched on [1:59:57] but what made you guys get set on [2:00:03] bringing the medical office building and the restaurant tighter to those other buildings versus having that internal [2:00:11] kind of prominade werf or you know whatever you want to call it but let's just say a more [2:00:17] protected um simple design of a through Street whether that's for walking or [2:00:25] parking or Vehicles guess I don't really understand do you you yeah I think so so you're are [2:00:31] you speaking to the medical office and restaurant being pulled closer to France Avenue and the the connector Drive being sort of placed behind side of that yeah [2:00:39] just from a a design perspective you're going to see basically a Street next to a really busy street with more parking [2:00:47] and I and and I know we had differing feedback on the commission as well as the Council um particularly for me I [2:00:54] would have wanted to see those brought toward France to create a protected experience back there kind of closer to [2:01:02] the the Pud that was approved which I think has more support behind it so I I [2:01:07] just haven't heard particular details of why this was chosen over that um you [2:01:14] know shorter shorter Bridges maybe and closer walking paths to get people [2:01:21] people may be safer to your building I'm I'm just guessing because I haven't heard necessarily yeah I if you look at [2:01:29] our previous sketch plan we've actually brought that building up quite a bit and that's allowed us to stay out of the uh [2:01:35] uh tree Grove um and we've we've set our internal um connecting corridors um back [2:01:43] at the building before they were more centered and and um closer to the front [2:01:48] so we we have brought that building up and I think think um before the [2:01:54] restaurant was integrated inside of that building similar to kind of um how it is [2:01:59] today taking that out of that building really allowed us to um create that um [2:02:05] breaking up a block and in this uh creating the street rooms and the areas between buildings that are programmed [2:02:12] and all that so um but at the end of the day it it really comes down to [2:02:17] maintaining those connections within the building so we've we've talked a few members of the um staff about about that [2:02:24] about putting that main uh prior v w ORF behind that [2:02:30] building and it just becomes almost impossible to create those connections that we need within the [2:02:37] building yeah if I want to just to piggyback on that I think it really uh primarily came down to the the the need [2:02:44] to keep these buildings interconnected to make this a a cohesive campus um as Sean had mentioned there's amenities [2:02:49] that are shared between the campus buildings that exist today um and that's important to to keep that for for the [2:02:55] existing tenants and for um for easements and things like that that are uh that are required for uh current uh [2:03:02] leases um I would say that when you push that connecting drive to the other side [2:03:08] um you run into a lot of issues trying to make those those internal connections [2:03:13] um to the to the existing buildings the other thing that we actually really like and understandably there's a there's a [2:03:19] surface lot that's between the medical office building and the tree Grove but when you get up to the upper stories of [2:03:24] this building where um a lot of the the multi-tenant users are going to be we've studied this quite um extensively the [2:03:30] views out to those tree Groves is is a really nice experience and instead of looking over a drive a and and looking [2:03:36] over Beyond um pulling that pulling that building away from that tree Grove really seeing that as an amenity and [2:03:42] something that we can tie into was a big uh Big Driver for for again citing the building where it is located [2:03:49] today thank you for the answer there I yeah it it's hard for me to I guess [2:03:55] swallow that just out of kind of the design principles that are you know kind of laid out for the design experience [2:04:02] guidelines it's really to create prominent Street rooms between buildings [2:04:08] and I I like the addition of the the bridges right and so then obviously it [2:04:14] cost more to create you know these larger or longer skyways but um that's [2:04:21] something I probably wouldn't have ruled out and wanted to see a different version but this is what you're here to [2:04:26] propose um I just I think um it it's tied to a couple questions but as you [2:04:33] bring everything close together you constrict a lot of your [2:04:39] design almost intentionally by that choice that you're creating a lot of these complexities of way finding and [2:04:46] cross paths that I think you'd otherwise just avoid um so I just want wanted to [2:04:52] understand kind of why and then um regarding the [2:04:59] um yeah I have I have a lot of so some of the sidewalks as as they [2:05:05] tie to the other parts of the side it I think you mentioned that that's going to be left to a later phase just as [2:05:13] you escape the S Acres that's left to later phase I think I think we've set the [2:05:20] stage for adding that connectivity and breaking up those buildings that now that we can work off of that that will [2:05:26] tie into that future phase okay and then um regarding the restaurant it being broke up which I like um is there a plan [2:05:34] for an outdoor like patio area I mean it it seems like you have it have you and [2:05:42] did you rule out any type of rooftop situation that then could kind of be [2:05:48] used to connect different buildings a different way I mean are what we're looking at the way that you kind of have [2:05:56] settled on those connections versus going from o the M Mo to the top of the [2:06:02] restaurant to the other building just curious yeah I I would tell you uh [2:06:08] rooftop use is very um user specific um [2:06:13] there are a lot of restaurant groups that kind of have played with the idea but that that um delivery system and [2:06:20] their current stff they might not have that all worked out um and so we while we are working uh with the current user [2:06:28] um um you we're also working with uh some of the design guidelines as well [2:06:36] and as they relate to a second level tying into the 6800 building that is um [2:06:42] very challenging from a egress and exiting onto that second floor because [2:06:48] there's a big Atrium right in the middle of that second floor so really that connection has to be on the main level [2:06:54] where it exists today really when we talk about again going back to way finding um if you have to say come into [2:07:01] 6800 where we've created a new Ada entrance on the on the uh east side of the building and you would have to go [2:07:07] back to the elevator core go up a level and then circumnavigate your way through that building to find the Skyway system [2:07:14] um that seems inefficient as far as a way to kind of connect these buildings whereas right now what you're able to do [2:07:20] is come into the this building go directly to your right stay on that same floor as the uh 6800 building go cross [2:07:28] the Skyway connection and then come into the medical office building where you're all at that same level again cir [2:07:34] navigating through the uh the medical office building to the shared uh oops [2:07:39] sorry shared Lobby that is uh between the two entries here and that again stays on that same floor and brings you [2:07:46] into the uh 6600 building which is where the primary ENT level is as well again [2:07:53] if we're if we're start to push some of those up you you really kind of break apart that that uh that way finding and [2:07:59] it's just interesting when you're you know skyways more at a ground level yeah [2:08:05] typically it's the other way around so I appreciate that and I think you touched on it before but I I just was there a [2:08:12] reason like that you couldn't have expanded that ramp just to the to the [2:08:18] South to just include that pedestrian route and just eliminate the stairs altogether I know you said it's a long [2:08:24] distance but I mean that's more accessible and easier for people [2:08:29] to right Traverse up instead of rely on steps was [2:08:35] there was there a reason that you settled on the stairs versus like a retaining wall next to [2:08:42] that are you speaking to the the parking ramp itself the ramp that you're using to to kind of navigate up to the parking [2:08:48] ramp yeah so that is a that's a speed ramp right now um which is not ADA Compliant as far as the the slopes are [2:08:54] concerned um a lot of that has to do with again the the size of the ramp where we're sort of restricted in in how [2:09:00] much space we have there um and so we would have to do a secondary ramp kind of adjacent to that in order to make [2:09:07] that connection and then what we run into is when you get to what we have the [2:09:12] Skyway right here that would be blocking you from making that connection through [2:09:18] to the uh to the other side of the of the other side of the site and so what we really wanted to do was pull this [2:09:24] this Valley View grade through the site in order to get below again that Ong grade link that links between all the [2:09:29] buildings and at that point uh like I had mentioned a ramp a a 200 and some [2:09:35] foot long ramp just wasn't really feasible in this area and so we incorporated the staircase and the Ada [2:09:41] accessible um parking uh elevator at that point to make that to make that link um otherwise what you would end up [2:09:48] with again is coming up a ramp even if we had that and you would have to cross through an on-grade link um in order to [2:09:54] make that that through connection yeah just trying to best understand the constraints and the [2:10:01] choices kind of to address them all right I think that's all I have for my [2:10:06] questions mostly comments that come later any other questions that have come up yeah commissioner [2:10:13] Smith yeah I know we're getting to the end of this section here so I'll try to be quick um just curious about the [2:10:20] design were you just copying what's on the other side of the street which is uh [2:10:26] Fairview Southdale just the the way how you designed your building is that kind of where the design came from not [2:10:33] specifically some of the material choices were uh definitely tied to again the white brick using that um to both uh [2:10:40] sort of bring some contrast to the existing buildings if you think about the existing campus right now it's a it's a really dark pallet of um of kind [2:10:46] of glazing uh primarily 6600 building is almost all curtain wall glazing that's kind of a a darker kind of bronze I [2:10:54] guess look to it and then the 6800 building is primarily that same curtain wall um with a with a darker brown uh [2:11:01] stair Tower we wanted to bring again some uh some contemporary nature to this so we're incorporating that darker brick [2:11:07] base facade to tie into those existing buildings but we really wanted to bring some contrast and lighten this building [2:11:13] up so it didn't feel like a really heavy dark campus in its entirety um using [2:11:19] that light that white brick color again to tie into the the Fairview Medical Campus and make this um understood as [2:11:26] sort of a unified district I think was a way to help um reinforce that that connection then as well [2:11:33] gotcha um in terms of ownership I was just trying to think through this and I don't want to make any assumptions [2:11:39] but so I know you guys are focused on this area and then let's just say we say it [2:11:47] looks great let's do it then would you guys just be gone and then the other areas would be new folks coming in to [2:11:53] figure out what to do with those sites like what's the what's the connection you guys would have on going to the [2:11:59] other subdivisions yeah I think um you know we have um been a part of [2:12:07] this ownership since uh wiir has since um uh the early 2000s um and um the current ownership [2:12:15] structure right now has has owned this since 2016 um there is a long-term vision on [2:12:21] this site and a commitment on this site um I think uh as we the [2:12:27] partialization is more at least initially based on the efficient [2:12:34] financing um because you think about you have two occupied buildings that are [2:12:39] that currently already have a mortgage and a loan on them and everything and we've kind of made way for this new construction project so those are two [2:12:46] really different pieces on on kind of how to how to finance this really efficiently um so from that partialization [2:12:53] standpoint we've um you know we we want to um um be able to set this up in the [2:13:01] most efficient way to utilize that [2:13:08] capital okay anything to add personally I hope we don't just walk away because I'd like to keep designing on the site [2:13:14] but that's yeah I mean I mean we we've got we've got plans for Success on the [2:13:19] site so okay wonderful um you know we we certainly uh you know [2:13:27] we just look at planning zoning these kind of things and we really rely on um folks like yourselves to understand what [2:13:33] what's happening in the market you know what are folks looking for you know what's uh what a corporation is trying [2:13:39] to find um just I know the market is very Dynamic but um any ideas of you [2:13:47] know subdivision one what that potentially could be what you guys are seeing and subdivision I think it's four [2:13:54] what do you guys are seeing there too in terms of future yeah I I think we already [2:13:59] answered this but I'm happy to say it again I think um on that North site I think that's parcel one right um on that [2:14:06] North Side parcel one um we really Envision this new development North [2:14:13] medical uses yeah and then uh where this professional office building is uh to [2:14:18] the south of that 6,800 building and South um you know that that is uh closer to [2:14:24] the neighborhood it's closer to retail it's closer to hospitality so we really [2:14:30] view that as as probably some function of a mixed use in the future gotcha and just last like little weird [2:14:37] thing that I I always notice whenever I go places is um in restaurant I guess [2:14:43] someone's walking down that Boulevard you know and you say hey I I want to go into that restaurant and grab a bite you [2:14:48] know they're not going to walk all the way down to the dri driveway and go back and just going to run over between the trees right so is there a way to put [2:14:55] like maybe a walkway through there that connects the boulevard into the front of the restaurant [2:15:02] R1 yeah absolutely and see speaking we do have this uh this through connection [2:15:07] right here um that that's that is going to be a kind of a signified crosswalk at this point um and then additionally for [2:15:14] people who are parking say in the uh the South lot here for the the time being while this is uh while this is still [2:15:21] surface lot we are um making intentional moves to uh signify different crosswalks [2:15:27] here to slow down traffic and really make that clear connection through to the uh to the to the restaurant as well [2:15:33] so um using that again as a way to to keep pedestrians safe as they're moving through the site wonderful thank [2:15:41] you that all right Alexander just real quick I was [2:15:48] wondering why we're extending the sidewalk on the North side but not the west side if that makes [2:15:54] sense yeah um that was actually one of the comments that we heard um uh with um [2:16:00] some of the council members is um you know there's we're kind of adding [2:16:06] a connectivity point on the southernly portion um and so with our limits of [2:16:12] construction was was there right now there's not currently uh a sidewalk on [2:16:17] that 66 so we are adding that um um there is currently a sidewalk along [2:16:23] Valley View on the west side of that that this site already ties [2:16:28] into good question we also note that um just adding a sidewalk again to to our [2:16:36] side of the site we're trying to be cognizant of the the tree Grove that is there and there would likely be some [2:16:41] additional tree removal if we were to uh to move forward with sort of removing sidewalk or adding sidewalk along that [2:16:47] side definitely be tree removal adding sidewalk we did that on the South Side uh to [2:16:54] accommodate de us so that it for questions for now all [2:17:02] right thank you guys thank you for being very prepared to answer all these questions so far this is a public [2:17:09] hearing the first of two tonight uh so with that I'll give kind [2:17:14] of the instructions and I apologize to someone who might be sitting in the queue for the last like two hours [2:17:22] uh but for those who didn't remember I'm going to go through this again for people tuning in remotely um please [2:17:28] call 312 535 8110 and enter access code [2:17:37] 2632 379 582 the password is [2:17:44] 5454 press star three on your keypad to get in the que to speak and we'll let [2:17:50] you know know one will unmute you and it be in your turn uh but first we will start with people who are here in person [2:17:58] please come forward to the podium and then we'll pivot after that to give people tune in remotely some time to [2:18:04] enter those 500 digits all right good evening my name is [2:18:10] Nora Davis and I live at 6921 Southdale Road in the lake Cornelia [2:18:17] neighborhood and I found the conversation to be very interesting tonight cuz there wasn't a lot of [2:18:24] conversation about the neighborhood there is a neighborhood directly adjacent to where that parking [2:18:32] garage is going to be and I'm here in support of the neighbors [2:18:39] that live that close I live on the south end of Southdale road we had a very [2:18:46] difficult construction project on our end and I don't want that to happen happen to my neighbors on the North [2:18:53] End there was talk um I did attend the open house on Monday night and it was [2:19:00] very interesting and I saw the parking ramp totally covered by these magnificent [2:19:06] green trees and I stood and looked at them and I thought why am I worried all those big [2:19:14] beautiful huge trees and then it struck me this is winter and six seven months [2:19:22] out of the Year there aren't going to be any leaves there and that parking ramp is going to be right in the face of [2:19:28] those neighbors and there's going to be lights I mean let's face it and if it's [2:19:34] a four story structure which it will be because it sits up so high it's going to [2:19:40] be like five stories same thing happened with the project behind my home they [2:19:47] said well three stories with set back to four will it turn turned out to be four [2:19:52] and then the mere fact that it sits up higher it's one honken siiz building so [2:19:59] I want you to think about those neighbors and yes there's going to be more traffic there we all know that and [2:20:07] they are very quickly going to discover it's much faster to go through the [2:20:12] neighborhood than to get on 70th Street or get on France Avenue with all the [2:20:19] stop lights we already have cut through traffic the other concern of course are [2:20:25] the trees and one of the neighbors said to me she said trees soften the buildings [2:20:33] and that's so true I've been driving out 68th for a long long time and you really [2:20:39] weren't aware of the buildings because of the trees it did soften those [2:20:45] buildings and I know with all developments [2:20:50] a lot of times what is actually on the plan doesn't turn out that way what you [2:20:56] thought were going to be magnificent trees aren't magnificent at all and they don't grow they die so please I ask you [2:21:06] to be cognizant of the neighborhood and Claire I had to compliment you on your [2:21:12] dumpster question I had the same question with that development behind our homes where are the dumpster is [2:21:19] going to be nobody could tell me me well they're in the front of the building they are five pickups a week and they [2:21:27] pick up adjacent to our neighborhood so we can always tell when the dumpster is [2:21:32] coming so thank you for that not many people talk about dumpsters so again [2:21:38] please respect our neighborhood thank you thank you very much anyone else who [2:21:44] is here in person please come forward [2:21:50] would like to speak of course not everyone hello again Janie Weston 6136 [2:21:58] Brookview Avenue um I walk through bike around and drive around this area a lot [2:22:07] it's on my way to things all around the Southdale area and um I have a thought about [2:22:16] Windows facing France Avenue do they have to be clear glass if I'm in a [2:22:22] medical building maybe that's not a good idea that it be clear glass can they do frosted or something like that take it [2:22:29] into consideration um sometimes you want medical [2:22:35] privacy um the other thing this eastwest pedestrian [2:22:40] walkway bike gutters are horrible I've been forced to use them [2:22:48] four years on the CFT toown pedestrian bridge over to Rosland Park from the [2:22:54] north side of the cross town they are really awful the older I get the harder [2:23:00] they are to use they don't they don't help anyone with a stroller they don't [2:23:05] help anyone that needs a walker and I can't use them now either because I have [2:23:11] to now use a recumbent three-wheeled trke my bike trke I call it doesn't work [2:23:19] when you've got 24 steps I think I was counting your lower flight real quick [2:23:26] when you had that image up there that was 12 and then there was a whole another flight of stairs so instead of [2:23:33] having the walkway on the souths side of the ramp squeezed between the 6800 [2:23:40] building why not have it be a much more pleasant Meander Through the Trees from [2:23:49] Valley View where The Pedestrian Crossing is have it used that natural rise up [2:23:57] through the trees to get you up to the France Avenue elevation the only then then [2:24:05] you're not having pedestrians cross over cars going around the blind curve to get [2:24:12] in and out of the ramp which is really dangerous um so you eliminate that [2:24:18] problem then the only place that you need to do [2:24:25] something a little different is do a walkway pedestrian bicycle bridge over [2:24:32] your um ramp to go to the your access [2:24:38] drive to get to the parking underneath the building um and then that would just [2:24:44] give you much more gentle rise much more pleasant just be nice with the trees I want to see as many trees as possible [2:24:51] stay put and then perhaps if the Fire Marshall would let you maybe that ramp [2:24:57] could be moved a little bit further south and save a few more trees because [2:25:04] those big ones take decades or centuries to grow so I'd like to see most of them [2:25:12] preserved um and I really like a 66 Street sidewalk idea because of where I [2:25:20] walk walk from my house one has been needed for years and on also on uh [2:25:27] Valley View on the east side of valy view for that one missing stretch that [2:25:33] would be great thank you thank you anyone else here in person that [2:25:40] would like to speak please come forward I don't see anyone jumping at [2:25:46] the opportunity so we'll turn to oh oh come on [2:25:55] I think you literally did jump I did thanks well I I lost track of things um [2:26:01] I just wanted to make sure that the engineering staff is taking into [2:26:06] consideration the uh water runoff uh even though we're planning for 100-year [2:26:13] events those 100y Year events are taking place a lot more frequently um basically just in the last uh Court um I was just [2:26:21] looking up on Google rain events in Minnesota and we've had Mega rain events [2:26:27] uh two and a half times more likely in the last uh 10 years since 2000 no I [2:26:33] guess that's 20 years uh than the previous 50 years so uh as we plan on [2:26:41] rainwater management I I just would rather air on the side of additional caution instead of going oh well it was [2:26:49] only supposed to happen every 100 years so that's it thank you very [2:26:58] much I don't see anyone else so let's move to see if anyone is in the virtual [2:27:05] waiting room we do not have anyone in the virtual waiting room I think we've [2:27:10] given it about five minutes or longer so yep um we will move on from that welcome [2:27:18] a motion to close a public hearing then move to close public hearing second all those in favor say I [2:27:26] I so move the public hearing is closed thank you for those who came and participated now is the time of this [2:27:34] public hearing that we will bring it back to the Planning Commission to deliberate so it might just work best to [2:27:42] maybe go one by one uh to share comments unless people have questions for each other first um if there's an ex change [2:27:50] or anything like that that someone would like to know or perhaps a comment for [2:27:56] well someone on staff that's in the room we're going to start from that [2:28:06] side personally I think it's a pretty good plan I think especially if they've done the research and they find that we [2:28:11] need more Medical Services I think that's imperative that we kind of take control of that and make sure that we're [2:28:16] helping our population in that regard yeah [2:28:24] thanks um I I really commend the developer and the architect for uh going from 15% of [2:28:32] the old growth trees to 90% that's that's huge for everyone and uh I'm sure that wasn't an easy easy lift um that [2:28:41] being said I I think the logistics to get in and out of that parking garage [2:28:46] the drop off in the back that you've got parking and around about I just I see a [2:28:51] lot of um pedestrian level concerns there I see opportunities for green [2:28:57] roofs on I mean if we're going to go up in the parking deck to the commissioner's earlier comment why not do all four now I know there's a [2:29:04] financing component to it but it does give us opportunities to do other community amenities um and I guess the [2:29:13] the the push and pull is by changing the zoning back you're giving up a lot of what the Pud was approved on in terms of [2:29:21] that concept that this is the beginning of the Southdale district and um that's [2:29:26] a public good and how do we connect all various people in various phases of [2:29:32] life I appreciate that I think Nora's um friend from Brook viws Avenue um uh you [2:29:40] know that you have strollers or or wheelchairs it's just it's a challenge [2:29:45] and I wonder if there's a different way to think about the subdivisions with um [2:29:52] easements encumbering the sites that would give to the south of the building [2:29:58] you know preserve The Pedestrian Crossing there as part of the [2:30:04] subdivision as opposed to trying to force it in in between all these buildings that we've scrunched together [2:30:10] I just I'm struggling with that internally thank you commiss felt [2:30:20] um when I saw the plan right so obviously the [2:30:27] whole building environment and real estate environment has changed so they're trying to develop [2:30:34] this seven acres right in the middle um and when I saw this plan I like the [2:30:42] orthogonal nature of these buildings um when I walk around the site [2:30:48] and even when I walked in the site um because the diagonal building I get [2:30:54] confused so I think I think the strong relationship between the parking ramp [2:30:59] the medical office building the new um restaurant and the existing building those for kind of create a [2:31:08] really strong orthagonal presence within this campus um and I'm a little bit [2:31:14] reminded with the street rooms you know we've talked about Street room typologies the um [2:31:21] um the water ISS uh the Water Pond issue and the kind of um the one among the [2:31:29] trees but also that whole kind of Stairway ramp access between the East [2:31:34] and West um I find those spaces very [2:31:40] interesting personally and I'm reminded the 50th in France um between the south parking ramp between luns and the [2:31:47] restaurants and when I go in that parking ramp and I score among that first set of parking like right next to [2:31:56] the drive aisle where all the trash I'm like I've got Rockstar parking and I'm happy about it and I'm happy kind of [2:32:04] Crossing that lane um and taking the little path down and I love all those back alley paths so I can pick up [2:32:11] something in the grocery store and run through and this is not a series of grocery stores but I can imagine being [2:32:18] in the Cornelia area and walking through there and not having cars come at me [2:32:25] from my other side and being able to go to the restaurant um and I appreciate that um [2:32:32] and I really appreciate I get the connectors were strong and one of the things I asked for [2:32:38] was being able to kind of get through the site from the East to the West without having to go through a building [2:32:44] um so I appreciate the creative way that they came together to make that happen and I [2:32:50] actually think that little Alleyway is like four Street rooms in itself I mean [2:32:56] they're small discret ones they're not as big as some of the other ones but I think there's a lot of synergy happening [2:33:01] back there that's enjoyable and there's you know what 20 foot grade drop between [2:33:08] Valley View and um France Avenue and that's going to be difficult to do so [2:33:15] I do think um [2:33:20] what's kind of important to me on this [2:33:25] is the one way we can one of the one of the strong one of the biggest pieces of [2:33:32] the South Delta area guidelines to me is breaking up these large BR blocks and if the future development of [2:33:40] this site can um maintain those Original East West [2:33:47] streets the one on the side of 6800 would be um a straight shot East West [2:33:54] the one on the North side Wind Through the um the lot the parcel a little bit [2:34:01] more I think the ability kind of if we can find a way to kind of get [2:34:08] those into the whole parcel that would be important to me um [2:34:13] I also appreciate the amount of trees that they listen to us and and are keeping a lot of those trees they are a [2:34:19] lot lot of old growth trees and it's 75% more or 70% more um that's a lot of [2:34:27] trees so I appreciate that um I think there might be other ways to get through [2:34:32] the site um without having to go up the steps and that might have to wait until [2:34:39] later on and I I've gone back and forth between bringing the buildings up to [2:34:46] France Avenue or K ofy I do like the double Boulevard of trees I think it's really nice and it [2:34:52] it and of creates a campus effect here [2:34:58] um and I know it's against the South area guidelines but I do like the boulevard of [2:35:05] trees and um I know whenever I drive around [2:35:13] um Health Care Centers I go really slow in my car I do I just know that [2:35:19] there people that getting dropped off to go to their appointments and they might have mobility issues and I go really [2:35:26] slow and everybody around me seems to too um and that's where I think the way [2:35:31] finding and the signage on the parking structure is going to be really important um you know the parking [2:35:38] structure has been designed like this to save that Grove of trees that was really [2:35:44] important to the neighborhood um and I appreciate that um [2:35:50] I think that's it for my comments thank you commissioner bourtin okay well I I think it's [2:35:57] improved since the last time obviously um so commend you guys for doing that I [2:36:03] think the thing I like the best about it is the bevard the boulevard of trees like you said Mary whether it it gets [2:36:09] closer to the type of typology we want for a Boulevard Street um you know at [2:36:15] the same time like this is a rezoning request and I think we have the most [2:36:21] discretion um on the pyramid when it comes to rezoning than anything else and [2:36:26] um there's just some components of this I think I'm still struggling with for [2:36:32] example a commend preserving a lot of the trees but still uh just the idea of [2:36:38] like taking a a significant amount of old growth trees down to build a parking lot just kind of like runs against some [2:36:45] of the concepts we're trying like a lot of the concepts we're trying to accomplish with new development um in [2:36:51] some specific ways and then like bigger picture ways that may maybe I don't fully appreciate [2:36:59] the complexities associated with easements or things like that but but in general I think we're trying to [2:37:07] encourage development that doesn't have parking between the street and the structure um [2:37:15] and so and drive circulators around [2:37:20] concentrated campuses um in the middle of large blocks and I think I like an Ideal World [2:37:28] these these buildings would be close to the street there wouldn't be parking between the sidewalk and the structure [2:37:33] um the parking lot the extent that was needed would be shifted forward to not infringe on the Grove if that was [2:37:40] possible um but I do also appreciate some of the effort made at connect connectivity [2:37:47] between the structures so I think overall an improvement um right now given the just the discretion we have [2:37:53] with rezoning I don't know if there's like enough here where I would vote in favor of it um for the reasons I already [2:38:00] stated I think I I I mean ideally we'd see a strong just a stronger type of set [2:38:06] of structures that just fit closer to what we're looking I think we all know we're looking for when um when we [2:38:12] approve change um on this part of France all right thank you commissioner day [2:38:21] okay so I'll Echo I guess what most people have said I think the improvements great [2:38:28] as as a standalone site I think this functions really well right if this is [2:38:34] what we're aiming for if you looking for a campus like effect I think you've achieved that um the connectivity within [2:38:42] the area I think is great right certainly taking steps to encourage pedestrian connectivity [2:38:49] between between your buildings and whatnot um but what I struggle with here is how [2:38:55] this fits with what we're trying to accomplish not just on this site but Southdale as a whole and what the [2:39:03] Southdale design guidelines are looking for right and I know there's a push pull there you guys are concerned about your [2:39:09] site and we're concerned about the overall area and what works how can we right really you know find a a good [2:39:17] middle ground there um to me it seems like really what we've done is you've taken the feedback that [2:39:23] we gave initially and kind of come back with I wouldn't say the bare minimum but [2:39:28] not a much better than the bare minimum um when I look at [2:39:33] this I'd like to see something more along the line of 72 like when we reviewed a site on that was proposed for [2:39:40] 7235 France Avenue those buildings were split up more and further away from one [2:39:45] another and The Pedestrian experience was a lot more I guess enhanced than what I see here you could potentially [2:39:52] move that medical again we've we've talked about this medical site closer to France restaurant site closer to France [2:39:58] and encouraging more pedestrian connectivity in between and I guess more you know these Street rooms as you see [2:40:04] right and even visibility through the site I don't think it's necessarily and maybe way finding will really help with [2:40:10] this but your existing Street room that you have going through east to west [2:40:16] isn't the most I guess inviting isn't isn't really readily apparent to me that [2:40:21] that is a corridor that I could take if I'm living on the other side of this development and trying to get over to [2:40:27] France I probably would just think that's just a sidewalk that goes to the parking structure or goes to the [2:40:33] restaurant or whatever it may be um so you know to me it's and when I [2:40:40] asked about the parking structure and could we do something different it's you know those boulevards that we had in the [2:40:45] previous um sketch the East that connect the east west I thought that was great [2:40:50] and I again I know these things happen in layers I know they happen in stages so we can't plan it all at once [2:40:57] right and so you can't just build it all all at the same time understandably but [2:41:03] I do think that we've diminished The Proposal in terms of pedestrian and bicycle and really non-car [2:41:10] friendliness um than what we had originally seen so you know I think again you've made [2:41:18] good improvements in terms of the site from what we last Saw really [2:41:23] sered to make it really you know a cohesive hole for its site by itself but [2:41:29] as it really fits into the rest of France and trying to you know emphasize France as kind of a street avenue really [2:41:35] you know make that whole area better um I think it falls short a little bit [2:41:41] so that's it thanks thanks commissioner Smith [2:41:49] yeah you know uh I would agree with a lot of what was said earlier I know as a [2:41:55] Planning Commission the ideal situation right is that the whole site gets developed at the same time right that's [2:42:01] kind of the dream that we always look for but the reality is that you know we [2:42:06] have to break it up and do it in sections right and come back and reassess the other section and the other [2:42:13] section but when we do that you know we certainly want to think about how do we [2:42:19] give good feedback give good input so that we're setting the the groundwork [2:42:25] for the future right so when a new developer comes to grab a different section they could continue the work so [2:42:31] that continuity I think is is going to be really important for us I think we we got some good feedback on that earlier [2:42:38] today with you know setting the stage for walkways and Pathways and and how to [2:42:43] connect uh north side and the south side so I think that's that's super helpful [2:42:49] you know enhancing those uh corridors um I know parking came up quite a bit you know and you know from [2:42:56] real comments if we could somehow you know think about parking as [2:43:02] let's not build parking to get rid of trees right but let's think about doing parking in a way that minimizes it and [2:43:09] um and ideally kind of helps the next developer with reducing the amount of parking that they have to build if [2:43:15] that's possible right and that's kind of one of the ideas um really good uh progress on [2:43:24] maintaining the Oak Grove but then in some of the uh [2:43:30] proposals it was replacing Oak with coniferus trees right so Oak is a very [2:43:38] hearty age long it lives a long time it's a high quality type of a tree and I [2:43:43] know it takes forever to grow a pine tree is something that is not the same [2:43:49] same standard of tree I guess but I guess it lives a long time but if we could replace like with like that would [2:43:55] be even better right um and so just kind of consider [2:44:02] that uh you know we certainly want to respond to Residents who live in that neighborhood so I was very appreciative [2:44:08] of the feedback and that was one thing I was going to bring up here too was yes the screening of the parking ramp um I [2:44:16] totally get it you don't want this industrial looking parking r with lights kind of bearing down into your neighborhood right so if you could [2:44:22] screen that in a way that makes it artistic and inviting that's super [2:44:28] helpful uh the other components in just the placement of the buildings for you [2:44:33] know dumpsters for example and the way how to get through that site if you have a stroller or a walker or something like [2:44:40] that should also be factored in all in all you know as a city we certainly want [2:44:46] to have good development or we want to have development but we want have good development I'm kind of on the fense [2:44:52] here a little bit and I'm still trying to balance that but I think a lot of progress has been made but I'm wondering [2:44:59] if it's a little short and I'm still trying to decide on how I feel I guess [2:45:05] one question that maybe director T could answer later is if we were to approve [2:45:11] PCD 3 is it just for this subdivision or is for the entire [2:45:17] site and um um you know if it does get approved does [2:45:22] it lock in the developer to what they've proposed or could we add conditions [2:45:28] right so that's kind of what I'm trying to think through maybe at the end we could get some input on that but overall [2:45:34] better progress for sure than the first design but I'm wondering if there's something that could be done to enhance [2:45:40] it even further you know so that's kind of how I'm thinking about it commissioner Padilla [2:45:51] I'm going to Echo a lot of uh uh the same sentiments but maybe for maybe for [2:45:57] some different reasons um I don't have an issue with [2:46:04] um rezoning this from PUD to PCD 3 I think the fact that it was rezoned to [2:46:11] PUD and then never utilized makes it kind of moot so um I don't have a [2:46:16] problem with PCD 3 um I also um very much like the idea of breaking it down [2:46:23] um from one parcel to four Parcels again I think that's all progress however um I'm concerned about [2:46:33] uh the neighborhood on the other side of Valley View both um the homes and the [2:46:39] people that live there and also with the additional traffic that will um that will result from um closing off one of [2:46:46] the the uh those right the turn lane um [2:46:52] I'm also concerned with the public realm space [2:46:57] um I think the the boulevard that you've got parallel to France is nice I don't [2:47:04] think it's enough um clearly everybody expressed concern about the trees I don't know if [2:47:11] that surprised you but we've all we've all gone there um and lastly you know [2:47:16] from a 50,000 foot persp perspective I don't know how many people saw the article in the Wall Street Journal over [2:47:22] the weekend about uh Simon um infusing I [2:47:27] think $400 million or some enormous um amount of money into Southdale and lucky [2:47:34] for us you know um that Edo you know is going to benefit greatly um from that [2:47:41] and we can't ignore the fact that basically this is across the street and that's that's very important and very [2:47:48] impactful um of what this turns into and so you [2:47:54] know I think I think one of the things one of the ways that that that impacts it um is the fact that there has to be [2:48:01] additional access um easy access uh viable access and that means not just [2:48:08] from the buildings but from um the homes and the neighborhood on the other side of Valley View so I would like to see um [2:48:16] more of that and in addition to with accessibility and the whole public realm [2:48:21] aspect um bikes and walking and I don't think we spent um enough time talking [2:48:29] about that and you know my pet peeve is we get these traffic studies and they tell us [2:48:36] all about the vehicular traffic and they ignore uh they you know or they don't [2:48:41] know or they don't mention um what we hope is far more uh walking and biking [2:48:48] in the future so I end up on the fence as well after all [2:48:56] that so this kind of reminds me or makes me think of a homeowner coming to or [2:49:03] single FY homeowner coming to the city and having a large piece of property and [2:49:09] wanting to build a garage on it or something and you know there's plenty of land to do it and they're giving us this [2:49:16] little picture of part of their property and saying well we have constraints you know and it's kind of what chair Ben was [2:49:24] saying and so you know when we we give it variance the variance is for is this [2:49:31] created by the owner and this is very much created by the owner so this is [2:49:38] self-imposed uh problem so this is 22 Acres there's there's lots of places to [2:49:45] put a parking ramp and to line it with either business businesses or housing or you know even if it's decorative [2:49:52] whatever um this is a completely self imposed problem and it's really hard to [2:49:59] I mean it's very incremental compared to I mean changes were made and that's appreciated but it's very incremental [2:50:04] compared to what was there before um and it's it's just wrong in a lot of ways so [2:50:11] for example um and and before I get into that so zoning backwards to something [2:50:18] that the City created in the 1970s I think is a huge mistake so I don't think [2:50:23] we should allow this to be rezoned to PCD I think it would be a terrible mistake because our comprehensive plan [2:50:29] and future zoning would not look anything like that so um we want mixed [2:50:34] use and this really there's no mixed use here at all if we had um well we do [2:50:41] South just south of here we have affordable housing and so if someone um [2:50:46] there's going to be a lot of doctors in these offices but there's going to be a lot of technicians and other people who don't make as much money and if those [2:50:53] people are living in the affordable housing you know how are they going to get here I mean hopefully they're not going to drive because it's literally a [2:50:59] block away um you know the securest path that they would have to take to get here [2:51:06] and then the huge parking lot they'd have to walk through um just just doesn't really make sense so then we [2:51:12] also have a resident from a nearby neighborhood across the street um who [2:51:18] talking about you know getting across and other commission members have mentioned this you know getting across [2:51:23] Valley View Road and then going through this to say go either in here or to go across the street to uh to the mall and [2:51:33] um you know if if you if you imagine your a car going on Valley View and you want to get to France Avenue you go [2:51:39] along Valley View you make a left-hand turn you go through there's a stop light you're there direct path right through [2:51:46] the system if you live in the neighborhood hood and you want to come oh she's not here um and you want to [2:51:53] come through you cross um I don't know what the name of that street is but you you cross that [2:51:58] street where there's a where's a um crosswalk then you have to turn right [2:52:03] walk I don't know 100 feet then you turn left then you go across a grassy I mean [2:52:09] you know path across grassy area then you cross an entry ramp into a parking ramp then you have a suddenly wider [2:52:18] Street that's called the the West passage which is next to you know a [2:52:24] two-car potentially four or two story potentially four-story parking [2:52:29] ramp then you reach the first set of stairs um and then you um reach a second [2:52:37] set of stairs um which are now much narrower than the path that you were just on you [2:52:43] cross a little little Street sidewalk thing then you go down and then suddenly [2:52:48] expands again and it's called a street room and then it Narrows again and it's very very narrow and then you walk down [2:52:54] there and then you have to make a rightand turn and then you cross the the uh you know either the the loading area [2:53:01] or wherever the dumpsters are whatever that is and you go across there then oh you hit a parking lot you've got to make [2:53:07] a left then a left then you make a right then you go across the entryway to the [2:53:12] parking ramp then you make another left then you go across another Street and then you get to France Avenue [2:53:19] this is not friendly to anybody who wants to walk or bike through here so one of the things I used to be on the [2:53:25] Transportation Commission one of the things we talk about is making the city you know viable for people from 8 to 80 [2:53:32] you know and if you have an ebike for example and this thing weighs I don't [2:53:37] know what do they weigh 100 pounds more than that you know and you're trying to get it up and down this this thing using [2:53:44] this little this little slot and by the way there wasn't one on the other side where [2:53:50] the handrail was there was nothing next to that so are people going to go up and down on the same [2:53:55] one it's also as someone mentioned the the resident mentioned um going um no I [2:54:02] think you mentioned it going across uh the cross town you know in the ramp that's being [2:54:08] replaced um it had one of those and I've used it several times and it is not [2:54:14] pleasant to use and it it doesn't allow strollers and cumbent bikes and any other way of getting there and the city [2:54:21] would replace it or is replacing it with something that has switchbacks and that's much easier to get up and down so [2:54:27] this is a a completely unacceptable pedestrian and cycle way [2:54:32] through this system that's not only completely erratic but it goes [2:54:38] basically it's not a street Room you're like in a in a hallway and then there's [2:54:44] there's Greenery but there's not much else and if you think about the this parking ramp and walking next to it [2:54:50] that's very much like 50th in France before the new building was built right we had that old 1970s parking ramp and [2:54:59] that was not pleasant to walk by you know because you had all the businesses on the on uh 50th Street and they backed [2:55:08] up to the parking ramp and they had trees and bushes and everything but it was not a pleasant place to be and now [2:55:14] it's a beautiful Pleasant place to be and that's the kind of thing that this City wants and this is not it [2:55:22] so you know it's just it's just really problematic and then there's you know huge amount of parking that you know [2:55:28] would be completely unneeded and then so we talked about potential or there is affordable housing [2:55:35] to the South um and again you know if you look at cars today the average cost of a new car is40 [2:55:42] something, new cost of an EV is 50 or $60,000 so these people who are [2:55:49] technicians and whatnot probably aren't going to be driving very much longer they're going to be having to take transit and we're [2:55:55] going to have the Eline that's going to stop again just across the street I mean not just across the street but in the [2:56:01] Southdale mall and you know how are you going to get there from here and you know there's just no really good way to [2:56:07] get there and as another commissioner mentioned you know the lack of a sidewalk on the North or I guess that's [2:56:13] the Western Edge means there's there's no good way to circul at on this system and just by [2:56:20] focusing on this very narrow area you know you you're just we have to consider [2:56:26] the entire property because that's what you're that's what you own and um I [2:56:32] don't see us having any rationale for approving this um when the constraints [2:56:39] are completely self-imposed so um and again as as chair Bennett mentioned this this uh medical [2:56:47] office building entry that that streetway through there that is really meant to be up above the medical [2:56:54] building and the medical building should be along France Avenue um and then you have an internal Street and that's [2:57:01] what's called a street Room this the street room is not a street room um I I [2:57:07] think Mick should have a meeting with the current Commissioners because the [2:57:12] current commissioner there's you and I are the only two who were involved in that who really understand it and it's a [2:57:18] huge document and I think to understand what a street room is you would know that this is not a street room and so by [2:57:25] moving that street up up well further west that would make a street room kind [2:57:30] of like what was there before and that would connect the entire length and then you know we ask questions like what's [2:57:36] the future plan for south of here and north of here we can't consider that tonight because that's an unknown that's [2:57:42] not what we're voting on tonight we're voting on the current plans and that's the only thing we can vote on so I think [2:57:48] for all these reasons um I you know I'm not going to vote for this I think this is a I think it's a terrible [2:57:54] plan thank you commissioner [2:58:01] Sarah um okay I'm gonna be honest I don't really have anything new out of this conversation that hasn't been said [2:58:06] already so let's just um so let's keep this moving and uh [2:58:12] yeah very nice thank you great comment uh [2:58:18] just want to thank you all for for coming I mean I guess the first part of my comments is you [2:58:24] know there was a lot left to be desired the last go round so to come back and [2:58:31] face us again after that you know it's quite an undertaking and we want to see this type of investment in we want to [2:58:38] see this here I want to see this here the community wants to see it here um I [2:58:44] think the Aesthetics the design the saving most of the trees the [2:58:51] connections um the medical office components separating out the restaurant like a lot of a lot of what you are [2:58:59] showing and presenting and want to do I'm 100% behind it's just the how and I [2:59:07] and and it and it hinges back to comments during the sketch plan for this for me too [2:59:13] where just the basic fundamental and first design choices on the [2:59:20] site set constraints that otherwise won't exist so what I'm looking at here [2:59:25] the 7 Acres we have two buildings that exist but they're outside of the S Acres so [2:59:31] it's like building next to something that's there so to me we have seven acres to get creative to make this work [2:59:39] that's a that's a lot of real estate to really get creative and the previous plan preceded [2:59:46] the out experience guidelines and the design experience guidelines yet it was [2:59:51] much closer to those than what we're seeing right now so it just just for [2:59:56] fundamental reasons like again I totally support what you guys are doing really [3:00:02] like really want to get behind a way to make this work and I think there is I think you have all the right [3:00:07] components just the wrong configuration to make the [3:00:12] design simple more in line with the design experience guidelines and the [3:00:18] southill um area plan that then kind of answers all of these critiques we had [3:00:24] like those design features that were well contemplated create a simple wave finding [3:00:33] experience to navigate through a site get through it and I think it answers a lot of these things if you just shifted [3:00:39] and brought things forward and made concessions of how you connect the building so um for for a bunch of those [3:00:47] kind of reasons just fundamentally I'm I'm not there enough to support it um I [3:00:54] think the variance request component or the rezoning is maybe arbitrary if if [3:01:00] this looked um spatially closer to what I'd like to see I think I could get [3:01:05] behind that the transparency and the height not really an issue it's just where we have the [3:01:11] discretion um for that resoning and kind of the composition of it I'm just not [3:01:17] quite there commissioner Bennett is it possible to ask the applicant if they [3:01:23] are willing to make further changes before we give a vote so typically I would guess with the [3:01:30] type of changes we would want to see it would require a resubmission unless [3:01:35] there were just slight tweaks I mean if it was you know add a path connection [3:01:41] here or you know because this this basically is U these are conditions that [3:01:47] go to a recommendation to the city council so we're not necessarily changing what this looks like right I'm [3:01:53] just feeling that there's a sense of Greater conditions but I'm like there [3:02:00] would be a lot of conditions if we were to approve it so rather than go that way give the developer an opportunity if [3:02:07] they'd like to revise yeah kri like what and they can and they're they're free to [3:02:12] still pursue through the city council but typically you know if [3:02:18] if say we don't approve it or the city council doesn't or there's conditions too strong there's kind of a gut [3:02:23] threshold that you would say kind of minor minor tweaks that would push through the [3:02:31] changes you're contemplating here probably would warrant a a a [3:02:38] resubmission the other option is you know we're under the 60 day rule um you [3:02:43] know they could wave that revise the plans and still operate under this [3:02:49] existing application where we're not you know under that time threshold okay um [3:02:55] the other op you know they can if they don't want to make any changes to the plans Planning Commission [3:03:01] makes a recommendation goes to the city council if they were to deny they would have to wait a year to come back unless [3:03:08] the changes unless they make some significant changes to a new for a new application and that's that's up to [3:03:15] staff's discretion and I think maybe some of the stuff we've described could kind of comprise a major revision so um [3:03:24] again just sensing what I'm hearing um I think we should move [3:03:30] to a motion either for approval or denial and regardless you know wish you [3:03:36] guys the best luck and I mean we want something like this to happen here just [3:03:42] I guess I'm not speaking toward the results but thank you so much for coming um is is there anyone that's willing to [3:03:48] make a motion either way so if if I might I'm just thinking [3:03:55] about beefing up the findings for the denial option um I'm [3:04:00] hearing maybe support for variances so finding number three maybe we remove [3:04:09] that and I wrote a couple of things down that I think I heard the commission say [3:04:14] not in these exact words but I'll throw it out there and offer these as findings uh lack of pedestrian lack of adequate [3:04:21] public pedestrian and bike connections through the site uh the proposal remove [3:04:27] sign significant trees for construction of a parking ramp when there's other space on the site um for a parking [3:04:34] structure without tree removal those are two that I thought of um that I heard [3:04:40] and if there's any others that you um might think of [3:04:50] commissioner Miranda yeah as per the Southdale guidelines we would want a street through the center you know a [3:04:56] connector all the way through right through North South north [3:05:11] south and and I don't know if I mean some of that's getting more specific than kind of the the the [3:05:18] General like guidelines of just breaking up the block in such a way which could [3:05:25] be East West too oh sure I mean they could add East West too yeah but they but it calls for yeah a north south [3:05:33] route through [3:05:39] there internal still willing to make no not [3:05:46] anymore anyone willing to make a motion either [3:05:53] way did they not motions Den I based on the list that Carrie came up [3:05:59] with and the ones in the St yeah [3:06:07] second so we'll do a roll call vote and just a reminder all in favor of this or [3:06:12] in favor of a denial just a reminder so an I signal a [3:06:18] denial roll call commissioner Miranda I commissioner [3:06:23] Padia I commissioner Smith hey commissioner day hi commissioner [3:06:31] Bornstein I commissioner phelp nay commissioner [3:06:38] hanaman I chair Bennett I so from that the motion carries for [3:06:46] recommendation of denial to the city council again wish you guys the best of luck [3:06:53] um thank you for coming in and we hope to see you again or if it gets through [3:06:59] best of luck in construction thank you so [3:07:05] much all right we're on to our second public hearing I I think we take a five [3:07:10] minute break allow student Commissioners to go to bed [3:07:15] um uh maybe let's pick up in five [3:07:24] minutes would we all [3:07:52] you guys [3:08:27] GRE [3:09:14] um well the we have to do is it takes minut to start Rec [3:09:49] around [3:10:39] to the [3:10:46] South [3:11:16] e [3:11:46] e e [3:12:30] oh gosh oh no all right so you've had meetings till like two turn into a pumpkin [3:12:37] yeah so we uh we have one more public hearing uh same format although this [3:12:43] time the applicant is the city and US Supply commission to advance a potential [3:12:49] ordinance uh Addison take it away thank [3:12:58] you started talking about accessory dwelling units two years ago and uh we're here tonight to have you consider [3:13:05] uh an ordinance to move forward to the city council um so I'll just kind of back up [3:13:11] here and give a little bit of context and history on how we got here so um the reason we're even talking about this is [3:13:17] accessory dwelling units have been identified in a number of the city's guiding documents as something that uh [3:13:23] we should consider pursuing as a way to uh meet some of our housing and sustainability goals there's a document [3:13:29] included in your packet tonight that uh pulls out a lot of that language and identifies some of those those goals and [3:13:35] policies and how adus would align with that um and so starting to take a look [3:13:40] at at adus and potentially drafting an ordinance was put on the planning commission's work plan back in 2022 and [3:13:49] 2023 um so a subcommittee of the Planning Commission was formed with chair Bennett um commissioner Smith and [3:13:56] Miranda and we started looking at this uh together looking at uh ordinances [3:14:01] from over 20 other communities some local some across the country um getting [3:14:07] information from other cities um looking at articles um talking to researchers [3:14:12] talking to Architects and Builders um and so a lot of that information was used to put together an advisory [3:14:18] communication that the Planning Commission um approved and passed along to the city council that was presented [3:14:25] to the city council on February 7th of 2023 recommending that we move forward with developing an accessory dwelling [3:14:31] unit ordinance um Council still had some some questions and things they wanted to discuss with staff and the commission we [3:14:38] talked about that at a work session with them on May 16th of 23 and it was at that meeting that they gave feedback uh [3:14:45] to Planning Commission and staff to continue working on this and developing uh an ordinance um but also to get some [3:14:52] feedback from the community so we had a survey that was posted on on better [3:14:57] together for about six weeks where we had 136 responses to that we held a couple of Resident focus group meetings [3:15:04] to have some deeper conversations with residents about ad their feelings about adus and um then following that Planning [3:15:11] Commission gathered a lot of that feedback and met in four different four work sessions in the fall and into uh [3:15:18] the winter of um or the beginning of 24 to begin developing the framework for the ordinance that's in front of you [3:15:25] tonight um so now I'll just kind of go over what is in the ordinance and what's proposed um so the ordinance would allow [3:15:34] adus only on Lots with a single family home um it would allow no more than one [3:15:39] Adu to be constructed per property and would allow um internal attached and [3:15:44] detached adus so um we say internal we're talking about a dwelling unit constructed within kind of the building [3:15:51] envelope of the existing single family home um an attached Adu would be [3:15:56] something like an addition off the back creating a new dwelling unit um and then [3:16:02] detach could be a standalone dwelling unit or it could be a dwelling unit located above a detach [3:16:10] garage um the ordinance would allow adus to be permitted by right so assuming you're complying with all of the zoning [3:16:16] stand standards um you just apply for your permit it it doesn't require any kind of um discretionary review like a [3:16:22] site plan review or or a conditional use permit process um that was pretty consistent with most of the other [3:16:28] communities we looked at um either the Adu or single family home could be rented out but not both units uh the Adu [3:16:36] could not be sold independently from the primary home or create a separate tax [3:16:41] parcel uh the maximum size for an Adu would be up to potentially th000 Square [3:16:47] ft um the exception for that would be if someone was trying to create an Adu [3:16:53] within an existing basement you could exceed that um Planning Commission had a lot of discussion about that in those [3:16:58] work sessions and really the intent behind that is um it may be impractical [3:17:04] to kind of partition off some of the basement if it's larger than a th000 square feet and keep that as part of the [3:17:09] primary dwelling unit you you may have some additional challenges with that um that was something we saw in the city of [3:17:15] crystals ordinance uh we think that that would be a good way to try to minimize um the need for variances in those [3:17:21] cases um the tht maximum is also consistent with um the existing maximum [3:17:28] for detached accessory stru structures on a single family property um it is a [3:17:34] total uh square foot limit for all um accessory buildings on a single family [3:17:40] lot so if you had a shed and then you also wanted to have an Adu it would be the combined square footage of those can [3:17:46] see exceed a thousand you may also end up being limited by um building or [3:17:52] impervious service coverage limitations as well um there is no minimum size in the [3:17:59] zoning ordinance for an Adu um however the building code sort of indirectly dictates that there would be some some [3:18:05] minimum size um and would ensure that there's enough space for it to be safely [3:18:10] livable there are a few minor design requirements that are intended to really maintain the appearance of a single [3:18:17] family neighborhood so restriction on adding additional entrances to the front of the house um and also requiring that [3:18:23] a detached Adu must be located fully behind um the rear building line of a single family home so that when you walk [3:18:30] down the street it still maintains that appearance of a single family neighborhood um just like any other type [3:18:36] of dwelling unit uh an Adu would need to comply with Minnesota Residential Building Code and then the ordinance [3:18:42] does not require any additional parking be provided for an Adu but um again the city does have restrictions for on [3:18:48] street parking so sort of indirectly if you need to park a car it would need to be provided on the [3:18:55] property um setbacks and height are probably the things that you all discussed the most those two kind of go [3:19:00] hand inand together so um there's kind of two different [3:19:06] scenarios here so the the city currently has a one and a half story or 18t height [3:19:11] limit for detached accessory structures that can be located 5 feet from a side or rear lot line [3:19:17] um the ordinance would maintain those same standards for a one and a half story or 18t High Adu um we recognized [3:19:25] that in order to allow adus over um above a detached garage um 18 ft was [3:19:31] going to be uh not enough height to accommodate that so the commission talked about um allowing some additional [3:19:38] height and then talking about what would be the appropriate setback um so you spent a lot of time on that and where we [3:19:44] landed and what the ordinance uh proposes is that um if you want to go up to 25 ft and have that second [3:19:51] story The sidey Yard setback would need to be the same as is required for the principal structure um and the rear yard [3:19:58] setback would need to be at least 12 feet um however for properties of buting an alley it could be reduced to 5 feet [3:20:05] um so these are examples of what is kind of a typical lot in morning side which is 50 by 200 um so our principal [3:20:16] structure side yard setback is on a sliding scale that varies by lot width so for a 50ft wide lot the the principal [3:20:23] structure side yard setback is 5 feet um so that is what the Adu would need to meet for that side yard setback here [3:20:29] with a second story and again that 12T rear yard setback in the case of lots [3:20:35] that are wider like a 75t wide lot that side that sidey yard principal structure [3:20:40] setback increases to 10 ft um and then still you have that 12T rear yard setback here um but but again for a one [3:20:47] story Adu a 5ft side and rear yard setback um would be allowed and I should [3:20:52] say too yeah these are all height and and setback requirements for a detached Adu anything attached or internal to um [3:21:00] the primary dwelling would just need to meet principal structure setback and height [3:21:06] requirements um also when we looked at other cities and and what what they allow for height um it was important to [3:21:13] note that those other cities measure height to the mid point of a gable roof Ed measures height to just the highest [3:21:19] point regardless of roof style so you know we saw some of those other communities allow height up to 21 feet [3:21:26] 22 23 feet kind of in that range was pretty common um that's measuring to the midpoint so like on this graphic for [3:21:33] example you see that that would be measuring to the midpoint at at about 17 feet here but this the way IO would [3:21:39] measure this structure would be 24t in height so um just say that for us to be [3:21:45] able to kind of be able to accurately compared to those other cities um so you had a lot of discussion on that and and [3:21:50] landed on that 25t for um a second story [3:21:56] Adu um so with that here uh staff's recommendation tonight is that you hold the public hearing um and make a [3:22:02] recommendation to the city council regarding the proposed accessory dwelling unit ordinance um staff worked [3:22:08] closely with you in developing this so staff is supportive of the ordinance as it's drafted and recommends [3:22:14] approval so be happy to take any question questions thank you Addison just want to [3:22:20] uh commend Addison and Quincy here as well as commissioner [3:22:25] Miranda I think the difference with this one compared to other things is I mean when you look at the Timeline this has [3:22:32] been a pretty long and thorough and very intentional process as we've learned [3:22:38] from other ones that have maybe kind of got stalled and uh there's just been a [3:22:44] tremendous amount of effort and strategy employed with kind of getting this to a [3:22:50] Finish Line in a let's just hope in a like an approvable ready State U one [3:22:57] thing commissioner or uh Addison didn't touch on two is like the draft ordinance [3:23:03] is simple relative to a lot of other um [3:23:08] jurisdictions and there is good reasons for a lot of that um that you didn't [3:23:14] really touch on but are important for people to understand like pretty much any possible situation has been [3:23:21] discussed and contemplated so even though you might not see specific wording around something there was a [3:23:28] reason why that was left out or left unaddressed and there were reasons why certain things were amended and even in [3:23:36] the last few days we've I personally have thought of a couple other things too but uh this is I guess the time for [3:23:43] questions and since this is the present ation we can I mean this can be more of [3:23:49] a a fruitful Exchange in advance of the public hearing so if people have like [3:23:55] hey can we tweak this language can we can we consider this I mean we're at a [3:24:01] place that's pretty ready to approve um but if you have any concerns or clarifications or whatever this is the [3:24:08] time so think just open it to anyone to yeah commissioner p uh just in the [3:24:15] better together d i noticed a lot of um the feedback was asking about the R2 uh [3:24:21] adding R2 approval to this and so I'm just wondering is that something that would have to be done now can that be a [3:24:29] subsequent ordinance [3:24:34] Amendment yeah right right now it would only allow them on R1 properties with a single family home um you know that um I [3:24:42] think was something that you all discussed in one of those one of those work sessions [3:24:47] you certainly could change that here as as part of you know adopting this ordinance or it could be something [3:24:53] that's done later um so really you know yeah it's totally up to your discretion to recommend that and we did and we did [3:25:01] discuss that intentionally to not take a a giant leap but you know a step that [3:25:07] gets us there and then I mean an amendment would be as simple as adding and R2 in the future or whatever right [3:25:16] something that simple of amendment to the [3:25:22] ordinance yeah commission f is your mic on no thanks [3:25:32] um I think we can think about that later but I did have a question I looked up the R2 [3:25:40] zoning today and um it did say in there that R2 zoning [3:25:46] can be split and then if it's [3:25:51] split can then it be considered I mean it's still in the R2 area but then the [3:25:57] lot is split and it's not two houses on a lot it's [Music] [3:26:03] two separate residen on two separate Lots yep so it's it's sorry go ahead I [3:26:09] was just going to say so yeah it's still zoned R2 this ordinance would only allow in the R1 so it would still require an [3:26:15] amendment if that was if we want to accommodate and allow accessory dwell units on like the zero lot line you're [3:26:22] saying when someone like splits the lot down the middle of a building yeah yeah you won't by you won't be able by right [3:26:29] according to this ordinance I understand but I just wanted to ask about that I had [3:26:37] never it was the first time I had read that or understood that in the in the R2 that they could split their Lots so it [3:26:44] might be worth talking about at a later date not I I don't think we talk about it [3:26:51] tonight yeah if I would just add the public notice didn't include the R2 [3:26:57] District so if that's something that we wanted to add we would have to Ren notice or do it at a later [3:27:07] date I I have no comments uh the brevity is is great uh I just noticed somebody [3:27:14] had asked and I'm new so sorry if this is dumb churches are zoned R1 and so [3:27:20] does that have any implication was one of the questions I saw and I didn't know if that had been considered or if that's [3:27:26] carved out or so it it would specifically only allow them on properties where the principal use is a [3:27:33] single family home so a church could not have an accessory dwelling unit as it's [3:27:39] written thank you maybe one thing to add is it ties to [3:27:45] kind of some of the concern just in general like you know hey we're trying to move this forward for a city but some of the concerns were if we allow this [3:27:52] does it allow a flood of investors a lot of cities like really [3:27:58] dial into like the owner occupancy but um Addison and team kind of came up with [3:28:05] verbiage at Bloomington uses that says one not both have to be can only be [3:28:10] rented so it kind of says the same things but doesn't have the legal binding that makes it very diff ult for [3:28:16] the city right yeah exactly so we're kind of talking about you know the [3:28:22] desire to have not have both units rented out um we're just tying that to the rental license rather than saying [3:28:28] like well the owner of the property has to live on the site because that could be complicated of well what happens when [3:28:34] someone passes away or property is sold um what are you going to do to the people living in the Adu um so yeah [3:28:42] Bloomington does it this way where they just say well either you can be rented requires a rental license but you can't [3:28:48] rent out both units um and so then we're able to just kind of enforce the ordinance the same way we would enforce [3:28:55] um you know the the rental license section of code on any other type of property if that makes [3:29:02] sense anyone have any questions specific to the terms of the ordinance language [3:29:09] as drafted I have a a few but I'm going to just wait [3:29:18] okay I just want to okay all right I'm going to bring up a couple things and I I talked to Addison and Quincy about [3:29:23] this um in in an effort to continue to make this simple I think there's a [3:29:30] couple things in there that we might consider striking um because they're more [3:29:36] informational uh so item G on the second so this would be special [3:29:42] requirements um requiring a frost protective Foundation that that's that's [3:29:47] required by building code already it seems like it's a more informational [3:29:53] nugget that would be you know to convey to someone hey like if you have a fraud [3:29:58] like if you just have a floating slab type of garage you likely might not be able to do this um we don't need to tie [3:30:05] it legally to this code where the building code covers that that was [3:30:10] something we talked about potentially um and then was it [3:30:17] was it the the the connected to Municipal sewer and water too by city by [3:30:24] city ordinance that's required already as well it does it does clarify though [3:30:30] that um you know the connections for water and sewer shall be provided from service lines shared with the principal [3:30:36] dwelling unless otherwise approved by the public works director so that's so should we eliminate the first sentence maybe or is it just [3:30:44] helpful I think it's it's helpful um but you know yeah any new dwelling [3:30:51] unit would need to be connected to um Municipal sewer and [3:30:56] water okay and then the only other thing I had was and I mentioned this to Quincy [3:31:03] and Addison again and maybe one of your first slides you could go back to like slide two or [3:31:09] three oh next one next one next one okay that one so um some of the Cities well I [3:31:18] I don't know which ones but I haven't seen uh detached accessory dwelling [3:31:24] units with terminology binding it behind the rear building line of a single [3:31:30] dwelling unit building so I mean even that top graphic I mean if unless that's [3:31:36] a corner lot you know like that that wouldn't be allowed and so not all of our lots are you know [3:31:43] alley based where you might have a detached GR on in the back it might be on the side of your house it might be like a reverse [3:31:50] lot kind of like lake lots there's a lot of Creek properties where because of how [3:31:55] they're situated there's already detached garages next to homes or [3:32:01] slightly in front of and then you just won't be able to do that in in one of [3:32:06] our considerations during our meetings were would we make a provision for [3:32:13] non-conforming like structures already you know like there's a structure here it doesn't quite conform if you could [3:32:20] repurpose it into an Adu um that would get these to happen [3:32:26] more than if you had to tear it down and start over um Addison shared like there [3:32:31] there's there's a lot of challenge with that because not again not every Situation's the same and then like what [3:32:38] type of nonconformity are you really basing that off of so I'm just thinking [3:32:43] of maybe a way to simplify this and I guess you guys could just share [3:32:49] from staff perspective I mean binding it behind a house even though like if [3:32:55] you're like saying morning s side all the houses are in line I mean the Lots so narrow like [3:33:03] unless you wanted to flip the principle and Adu structure and a tear down rebuild is there even a [3:33:10] concern or is that just unnecessarily binding cuz I think like what we're showing up there you couldn't build that [3:33:17] are you are you assuming that like this is the front yeah say that's the front Okay so if that was the front correct [3:33:23] and say like that was a garage now you can't do that it would need to be further [3:33:30] back no no I'm just saying like there are houses like this in our city that [3:33:35] like again if you had this situation you just couldn't do that by right with how [3:33:41] it's drafted so it's just it's just one binding thing it's the only thing I [3:33:47] thought of really going through this but I just want to kind of be prepared with the city [3:33:54] council yeah so just kind of explain what what I think you know I know what you're getting at just to explain to the [3:33:59] rest of you so like if this was oops if this was not a corner lot let's say and this was just the front the ordinance [3:34:06] would not allow you to put an Adu just to the side of your house it needs to be fully behind like the back of the house [3:34:14] again if this was the front but um if this is the back of the house and let's [3:34:20] say this is like the Front Street and this is the side corner this would be [3:34:25] allowed on a side corner does that make sense okay and so [3:34:31] I'm just like just with most of how lots are set up they're just they're kind of [3:34:37] set up in a way that would constrict you from doing that anyways but there are lots that I mean we see that are unusual [3:34:44] kind of around different natural features where you got curves where you have a garage to the [3:34:51] side now if you wanted to convert that into an Adu you technically [3:34:57] couldn't couldn't do it by R but couldn't you come and ask for variance to correct and I think what I mean the [3:35:03] intent with a lot of this is how do we make people be able to do certain things [3:35:09] by write that match what the character of their yard or lot is already versus [3:35:15] employ a variance I me like is there a risk with if you struck that like what what could [3:35:23] we see I I just don't see a risk with that yeah I think it comes back to what is the intent of that provision yeah and [3:35:30] the reason it's in there is to maintain the appearance of a single family house so if this was the Front Street and you [3:35:37] look like you clearly see two buildings on one lot but what but say like that [3:35:42] was their yard and that blue one was a detect garage already I mean that it is [3:35:48] the same appearance from a structure but yeah I mean if you look at it and it's clearly a dwelling unit I'm just saying [3:35:54] that's what the the intent of it is um not to say that you couldn't remove it it just it comes back to like what what [3:36:00] is your goal and your intent with some of these like design restrictions um if [3:36:06] you're not concerned about that then you're right we could take that out of there so it just depends on what maybe I'm thinking of it more in terms of like [3:36:13] a detached garage specifically not just the Adu structure just in terms [3:36:20] of you know one of the options of locating it above a detached garage is [3:36:25] maybe the primary thing I'm it just came and I told Quincy I'm going to mention it because if there's a way to allow [3:36:33] things that are common in different areas and by where I live that type of [3:36:38] situation is actually very common um you couldn't do this so it's like we approve [3:36:43] it now you're going to have to come in for Varian anyways if that's what we want to do like I'm still going to get [3:36:49] behind this ordinance but I I'm just trying to see if we struck that is there a fear of what could come out from [3:36:56] striking that line I just I don't know I don't think there's anything we should worry about [3:37:02] since other cities don't do it and the other option is you could change the word rear to [3:37:08] front front building line so you couldn't have it in front of the house but it could be along the side [3:37:16] if if that if you're agreeable to that you know unless [3:37:23] we've done a general catalog of all [3:37:28] the non-conforming or or unique situations and there's [3:37:35] going to be a lot um I'm kind of worried about what that [3:37:40] might open up well just like most lots are standard and you want able to do [3:37:46] something like that cuz they're narrow like you you just couldn't build neighboring things like and then you [3:37:52] have to you're tied to the setback of your neighbors so you just couldn't do it in most situations but in situations [3:37:59] that exist already now you're [3:38:05] stuck it just came off because this this and then you come in for variance I I know I'm just but like is [3:38:13] it a problem that like we're because again anytime we add a provision it limits someone right and we've done a [3:38:19] good job with removing pretty much most things that just stifle an opportunity [3:38:25] right I think this was a compromise because I mean yeah the more the more the better but I think I viewed this as [3:38:33] a compromise that you know if we see I mean I don't think we're going to see a sudden onslaught of a ton of adus I just [3:38:41] don't see it happening but but uh and if we do it would probably be a along and near France Avenue where the where the [3:38:48] street car or the uh abrt is going but [3:38:53] to me this was like it's fine because you know I think for what 75% of the [3:39:00] houses at least it's kind of the standard and we don't want to force everybody to to go and get a variance [3:39:07] because then it becomes You Know Drama it becomes this big thing the neighborhood built up [3:39:13] against it we want to allow the basic thing to be by right you know that [3:39:19] something that came pretty clear through our meetings um but this seems you know I mean like like in morning side you you [3:39:26] if that were a corner lot you couldn't even build the main house because our our sidey yard setbacks for [3:39:33] Corner lots are are so deep so um yeah and and I just can't like looking at [3:39:39] other cities that that provision really isn't in there so that that's just where [3:39:44] it came up I I'm just walking around her neighborhood I'm like you couldn't do it here you can't do it there you couldn't do it there even though there's a [3:39:50] detached structure that is that situation so we don't all live on a creek no no it's I mean it's [3:39:59] it's that whole area like of 44th and France as you go further down where the street car used to be where the lots are [3:40:05] more unique so yeah yeah just out of quick Point uh just on this specific [3:40:12] issue I think if I understand correctly and I and I totally get what you're [3:40:17] saying chair Bennett uh you know we're just there's just a couple [3:40:24] different constraints that we're trying to balance I think right one is we want [3:40:29] we want to get this past right we want the the term that I invent invented some [3:40:35] time ago is a minimum Universe right of what's the maximum that we can go that would be still minimum enough for the [3:40:41] city council to say yes this sounds good and I think some of the feedback from our mayor when we first presented this was [3:40:48] he wanted to maintain that single family aspect of this of the neighborhood right [3:40:53] so that's one constraint the other constraint I think is you know uh continuing non-conformity I [3:41:01] think is what we want to avoid as well right we want to get things to be in in Conformity with what the city ordinances [3:41:09] are and so we trying to minimize additional development on a non-conforming structure right that's [3:41:15] another constraint that we're trying to balance um but I do get your point right which is if it's already there and [3:41:24] people already see it and everyone's comfortable with that look and feel why [3:41:29] not converted into an Adu if it's at the side of your house instead of it being in the back I get that too um now I [3:41:38] think the way to address it was with director te's perspective is if we bring this forward to the front [3:41:46] uh line of the of the home is how you would probably try to address that right [3:41:52] but I think that opens up now A different kind of worms which is now uh [3:41:57] the single family experience of the of the neighborhood might change and so I [3:42:03] think the best option is to go through a variance option you know hopefully residents see this the city [3:42:09] deliberation they get your perspective and part of this too is that we're going to learn right this is the first first [3:42:15] time the city is going to do it we're going to see if the volume is low or if it's going to grow and I hope based on [3:42:23] overwhelming feedback from residents how supportive they are of this that folks will be excited to say hey you know what [3:42:29] maybe I don't hit all 10 of these things on this list but I still want to try and see if I can get a variance on this team because I really want to do it and I [3:42:35] hope if we see more of that that's going to then trigger us to say you know what let's revisit this code and make some adjustments so I'm kind of taking the [3:42:42] let's go the minimum universe that we could hopefully get past look for variances and then make [3:42:48] the adjustment over time because it's very popular in the city right now to have this so that's just my two cents of [3:42:57] that I agree with Quincy yeah yeah no I it again and I just say it because it [3:43:04] feels like we're saying something that you don't need to say because most lots are situated where you're adding [3:43:11] Provisions that now limit people and that like to create a scenario that you instantly need a variance is something [3:43:17] I've always wanted to avoid when we've drafted it so I'm I'm going to fight tooth and nail to the end for that but [3:43:23] I'll still support this just so that everyone knows I'm fighting for everyone [3:43:28] to try to do one of these in a responsible way and by having that you're you can't in that way if you live [3:43:36] in a particular spot so it it's just something we could avoid by striking so sure maybe the first [3:43:43] change to the ordinance after it's passed would be if your lot is wider than it is deep you know because that's [3:43:50] kind of what you're talking about because you are talking about that's also something very specific so you know where the street car line was you know [3:43:56] those lots are wider than they are they're just not very deep at all and there's a lot of duplexes on them too [3:44:01] but further down they're just very wide lives a lot of garages right next to the house right sure sure sure so that makes [3:44:07] sense you know do we want to do that at step one or do we want to get the community used to it and you know [3:44:14] reassured by you know kind of as commissioner Smith was saying reassured by the fact that these things aren't [3:44:19] scary they're not going to you know destroy your neighborhood or whatever so you know I'll get behind it as is I just [3:44:26] wanted to bring it up see if others understood where it's coming from that's a good point [3:44:31] sure you know just to to add to that too I really do think though um G and I [3:44:38] let's just talk with that really briefly here but I think the whole discussion on [3:44:43] Frost protected found Foundation if we just let that be managed through regular building code I [3:44:50] think that's a good that's a good point um I don't think we need line G in there [3:44:57] is my thinking um but that's a good question it was more [3:45:03] for an informational like discussion because there's a lot of like for [3:45:09] detached garages particularly they're on floating slabs and likely you're going [3:45:15] to have to go through a foundation resetting or an expense of protection for frost to have a dwelling unit as [3:45:23] part of that space well when we went and looked at other city ordinances we kind of pulled [3:45:29] out things that we thought would be good for discussion might be good to include and so I know there was another city [3:45:36] that had it in the zoning section where they talked about adus so we just pulled it out and included it in there um does [3:45:42] it need is it redundant possibly we can we can talk with um our building staff [3:45:48] and see if if we can take that out and if it would make no difference then I think we should I think it ties to like [3:45:54] what you've discussed before like next steps once we draft this you would then [3:45:59] basically be responsible for kind of the advertising program of what this could [3:46:05] look like for people like brochures website whatever so something like that might be good as like hey this is [3:46:11] something like a checklist for you but it doesn't need to be in this [3:46:16] ordinance yeah and the second one uh I I thought was also a good point um because [3:46:23] I know when we were talking through this uh you know we wanted the resident [3:46:30] to to figure out how they wanted to configure the WAP and sap right Su [3:46:37] access no whack and sap yeah Su access connection water access connection to [3:46:42] Municipal lines right because you could put a meter on separately to the Adu and [3:46:50] for water and sewer and we wanted them to decide that so we didn't want to get in the middle of it I think what I does [3:46:55] it yes there's a language that says if the city deems it necessary but I don't [3:47:01] know if we want to put that in there and just say just connect it to the Municipal Water and Sewer and just step [3:47:07] back and let residents decide how they want to do that well to add in this point that part of the sentence is [3:47:13] already in our code like you you can't just build a new house and put a well on a well yeah and it was public work staff [3:47:20] that specifically wanted that language in there about saying it had to be connected through the service lines for the house um unless otherwise approved [3:47:28] by the public works director was that just because it's easier from a public works perspective just to connect it to [3:47:34] the main house or they want to minimize people cutting into the street and adding those connections the more you [3:47:41] cut into a street and Patch it the more vulnerable it is to wear and tear over time [3:47:47] ah but still it's it's a it's one of those choices of like let's shrink you [3:47:53] know the sidewalk and Landscaping because it's easier to plow versus we want wider sidewalks I think we have to [3:48:00] respect what the Public Works feedback is too but if it if it comes at a cost of like it's really convenient for [3:48:07] someone to do that now they have to get Public Works director support it seems [3:48:12] but but I thought it's much more expensive right than doing it it would be so why would you do that well let's [3:48:18] let's just say you have a line that runs down your rear property line and it's right there but your house is tied into [3:48:25] one in the street so now you're going to have to run it 200 ft to your building where instead maybe it's a 10-ft [3:48:34] connection like there I mean there's there's loads of scenarios but and I [3:48:40] think that's why they wanted to include you know kind of that flexibility where they have that discretion to kind of say [3:48:47] otherwise for like the example that you just gave like there were some scenarios that they ran through where they thought [3:48:53] well it might it might not make sense to connect through the house then I guess just like and to what Quincy said like [3:49:00] then do we need to include that or leave it to the homeowner I could see CD Works POS p p [3:49:09] perspective on this one if City Works wants to come to the April 2 meeting and say [3:49:15] this is awesome I say keep it cuz that's going to get over to hump [3:49:22] um but hearing Addison's perspective what is is saying is we are we are guiding you to use the already connected [3:49:30] Water and Sewer lines that's there if you want to do something different talk to us I think that's okay I think that's [3:49:37] okay well and being knew the way I read it was it was very clear then that you can't have a tiny home on Wheels that's [3:49:43] mobile like first time reading through this being part of the discussion I thought that was important to make it clear that an [3:49:50] Adu has to be a permanent structure that is tied into the sewer well that's part [3:49:56] of the building code with the foundation so like you can't right I mean you can't [3:50:01] have that so I mean I feel like we're adding Provisions that are already covered elsewhere that are unnecessary [3:50:09] some of this when people are considering doing adus for the first time time and [3:50:15] kind of looking at the code it gives them an indication of the additional things that they have to do without them [3:50:22] having to go through our zoning code I mean I I have clients who say things [3:50:29] like why can't I build a second story on this well and that that's kind of the point is we would eventually want to [3:50:36] direct residents not to the ordinance but to a website or a brochure that does [3:50:42] that checklist you don't need it bound to the ordinance well we can have it on a handout [3:50:49] yeah yeah and that anyways that's my only feedback I'd [3:50:54] say I'd strike those two and then strike the last one but I I'd I'd relent on that one but the advantage of this [3:51:01] though that's not a variance right that's just getting permission from public works so that's not you're not [3:51:07] going to have your neighbors with pitchforks and it's just getting permission from [3:51:12] public work but what does that look like I mean does the signature look like on [3:51:18] don't right I mean is that it gives them the teeth to require it to be connected through the house you know unless they [3:51:26] want to grant that you know exception oh which then might just make it harder for someone to do something more [3:51:32] affordable because again there's just cost to all this so it's really like a cost [3:51:38] choice I feel like you know we see things repeated and then eventually we [3:51:43] decide hey maybe we should change this and so maybe when we see repeated requests for things like this you know [3:51:50] like this the width of your property being but larger than what we've learned from even developers is they're not [3:51:56] going to ask they're going to just do what's easiest approval wise because of getting bur before so like adding other [3:52:03] approvals is just going to make people not do it like you're not going to ask that's [3:52:10] just what's kind of happened so anyways Ju Just limit lied feedback but yeah it [3:52:16] seems like building code already supports us and 's code supports the [3:52:21] first part of that one uh just a Qui question for maybe director t or maybe Addison uh could you [3:52:28] still meter if you're connected to the main home sewer line have a separate meter yes I believe you could and I [3:52:35] think this works I think this works yeah our city council is skittish I think we shouldn't [3:52:41] give them any reason to well sometimes when you put things on there it drums up questions you won't [3:52:47] otherwise even think about so like some of that is like it makes I don't it's [3:52:54] more of a checklist I see to you know do you want to do this these are things to consider not not binding someone to that [3:53:03] decision but again my goal is to just make it easy and Breezy to go through [3:53:10] without extra approvals or variances it sounds like most people get behind [3:53:16] eliminating G [3:53:22] though I don't have a [3:53:31] s yes so I think what I'm hearing if you're okay with this team is you know [3:53:36] we get rid of G we just keep [3:53:41] ey right yep is that an i [3:53:47] eye to ey y ey to ey so is that a motion no we you still [3:53:56] need to hold the public hearing that we get motion to hold the public [3:54:01] hearing yes right so motion to hold the public hearing and make a recommendation to the city council regarding the [3:54:08] proposed accessory dwelling unit ordinance striking line I from the ordinance yeah yeah anyone else I mean [3:54:16] just like any more exchange for us from [3:54:21] the I mean is everyone good after reading through this and with I mean [3:54:27] just any other questions for Addison or Carrie all right time for uh public [3:54:33] hearing number two oh man we got oh it's only is that only 11 nobody second my [3:54:41] motion nobody second the motion I know no one's going to all right uh well I'm going to at least [3:54:47] it's not midnight yeah we'll open I'm going to read the to kind of speed that [3:54:52] next part up I'm going to have you wait for those tuning in remotely and [3:54:59] would like to testify uh please call 312 53581 one0 [3:55:05] and enter access code 2632 379 5802 password is 5454 press star one on [3:55:14] your telephone keypad when you'd like to get in the queue to speak I would say do that now and we will open it to [3:55:21] Residents who are here in person first to participate please come up 3 minutes [3:55:27] okay uh tell us your name and address for the eth time I guess okay Jamie Weston 6136 Brook Fury Avenue I have [3:55:37] a on the permit said garage ped October of um 20 um [3:55:46] 2006 the building got moved into in 2008 it is my studio Stone carving Workshop [3:55:55] Studio it has it's a one and a half story um set further back on the [3:56:02] property it looks almost exactly like some of the drawings you brought up I [3:56:07] was thinking did you pull my shop out of your file or what I mean dimensions and everything but um [3:56:15] the upstairs is um um it's a lovely space um people that [3:56:23] would come to work on the shop they' say oh I want to live here well maybe someday someone can but um right now [3:56:29] it's just drawing boards big layout table storing lots of [3:56:35] materials um it would be really easy relatively to turn this [3:56:43] into an ad you sometime down the road if I ever want to do that some things that [3:56:49] you were just discussing though about Frost footings the [3:56:55] building is it's not um well it's on a [3:57:00] slab but it's tucked into the hill so I don't know where that would put [3:57:08] anything that you're discussing here over the years it all my the doors open [3:57:15] and closed just fine there's no sign of it doing fres [3:57:21] settling but it's a good slab and it's on um the hill was um [3:57:29] Sandy glacial till so it drains really well there's no sign that I have heaving [3:57:35] going on so I don't know where that would put me because some of it's on [3:57:41] foundation wall so I'm kind of half and half here um sewer and water wouldn't [3:57:49] make sense to tie into my house right now the gas line as well as [3:57:55] the electric it's buried the electric goes from the shop on its own meter to [3:58:02] the house which has its own meter the gas goes from the house to the shop [3:58:09] because that was the most logical way to do that um it doesn't make sense to tie [3:58:14] it into the sewer line now if somebody has an older house and they have a sewer line that's been giving them issues for [3:58:21] years such as my neighbor next door with the oldest house in the city they [3:58:27] wouldn't want to be tying into their sewer line so there are there are factors like that to take into [3:58:33] consideration that it would be a a real obvious uh don't tie into the existing [3:58:41] sewer line um my wife line is getting older so anyways these are just factors [3:58:49] this is really interesting to hear discussion of and I imagine myself okay [3:58:54] I'm getting older I would love to have an interested [3:59:00] Apprentice sometime down the road live upstairs in the shop I teach them how to [3:59:06] pass on this wonderful art form they can learn from me on the spot and live [3:59:12] upstairs and kind of keep keep an eye on me too or maybe one of my grandkids once they're graduating from college hey you [3:59:19] want to live over at Grandma's house up above the shop I fixed it up for you and [3:59:25] I also have a niece that's autistic and trying to get a housing [3:59:32] arrangement for her has been so difficult over the [3:59:37] years people that are on the autism spectrum this is a real issue and and an [3:59:45] Adu to give someone that's a a young [3:59:50] adult but still needs to have some proximity this is an ideal solution for [3:59:58] a family in that sort of a situation so anyway I want to see this [4:00:04] go forward thank you thank you very much anyone else ready to jump up and [4:00:11] yeah there we go all right please come forward thank [4:00:17] you well you know your your question about in front of house side of house is [4:00:22] it a corner lot you know that actually brought up a neighbor's house that just went up for sale on Wooddale uh 5832 [4:00:30] where the garage is actually in front of the house and the house itself is recessed behind it it's the only one [4:00:37] I've seen like it but it's a detached house or detached garage it could be [4:00:42] turned into a perfect little uh homik shape anyway um one of the concerns I have [4:00:50] about that frostline piece or the the frost floating piece is um if there's [4:00:56] been a comprehensive study to actually look at the structural uh capacity of [4:01:01] floating slabs and are we actually uh promoting the demolition of perfectly [4:01:07] good structures in order to do that I realized you could go through a variance [4:01:12] process and all this other stuff but it might be worth looking at down the road in terms of preserving a lot of existing [4:01:18] structures instead of having to disassemble or deconstruct or just lose [4:01:24] a lot of existing construction um the last piece has to do with uh part of the [4:01:30] developer concerns um you talk about the exception [4:01:35] in the in the um for converting a lower [4:01:40] level or converting a level of the house to if it can be larger than a th000 square feet if it's an existing home [4:01:48] what if a developer is looking at a perspective construction and they're thinking oo well I'll just make this [4:01:55] Foundation size 2,000 square feet and now I have a 2,000 square foot Adu at [4:02:01] the bottom of this thing we go ahead and sell it to a homeowner under the opice [4:02:06] of they just come in you know next year and say well where you want to turn that into an Adu I mean just a thought [4:02:14] I'm not sure what kind of ludicrous kind of stuff developers might show up with [4:02:21] uh and they wouldn't actually have to go through any kind of review process whatsoever um I realized there's other [4:02:27] uh caveats in the uh development code in terms of impervious services and all [4:02:32] that other stuff but it just might be worth considering that's all thank you very [4:02:40] much Addison you got anything are you going to [4:02:45] testify no no uh maybe we'll just wait till the um we give people a chance who [4:02:52] are tuning in is there anyone in the queue currently all right well we've given it like eight [4:02:59] minutes so I'd welcome a motion to close a public hearing move to close the [4:03:04] public hearing second all those in favor say I I I public he in is closed thank [4:03:11] you um as and you want to come forward I guess one of one of the questions just [4:03:17] regarding keeping it in so sometimes the the term Frost depth footing is used and [4:03:23] that binds it frost protected footing brings up other opportunities [4:03:30] I'm a geotechnical engineer by trade so like I I know how to work with the soil [4:03:35] and there are creative things to do to protect your foundation how it exists from fra but [4:03:44] you would you would need to engage an engineer and that would have to get basically signed off by a local [4:03:50] inspection too that might disagree with them so some of it's the local Authority having jurisdiction which is Edina but a [4:03:57] lot of it's the Judgment professionally from an engineer uh but depending on the city [4:04:03] there are things that you can do to get around it like putting insulation out farther so it can't sweep under but then [4:04:11] you have to temper the garage heat with wise or protect the slab from inside [4:04:17] freezing too so there's things that can be done so leaving it to building code and striking it from here I think opens [4:04:24] up more opportunities for people to get creative and I think if there's an [4:04:30] existing footing and if there's an engineer willing to kind of go through the numbers and sign off on [4:04:37] it then the city feels confident that they're not going to come back to the [4:04:42] city and most of the time it's not the slab than rather than the framing that's [4:04:48] in place already like if you just have 2x4s versus 2x6 a lot of things that play but [4:04:54] engineer inspections you got anything to add to [4:04:59] that I was just going to say I mean yeah we're getting a little outside of my wheelhouse I I would you know defer to [4:05:05] what our building staff says but like you said um I think it is probably redundant to have it in the zoning code [4:05:10] so we could take that out um and we can check with our building staff and see what they would say about [4:05:22] that all right any other exchange or people willing to change some of that [4:05:29] stuff like I want it or not yeah commissioner P I just have a comment to [4:05:34] make so I have missed I've been in uh I've been in [4:05:39] California for most of the last two months where adus are all anybody is [4:05:44] talking about it was so interesting to go out there and then find out that um [4:05:51] that was just walking around conversation for everyone because they all the cities out there are changing [4:05:57] their or ordinances but um the one thing that's different as I was talking to [4:06:02] people who I was astounded were conversant in all of this um I hadn't seen any and I was in Southern [4:06:09] California so was all the cities in southern California but um I had seen anyone as I talked to people and as I [4:06:15] looked into them and looked them up that um were put together as well as I think [4:06:22] this has been so um uh they just there they haven't been [4:06:28] put together with diligence or hard work um there's nothing about minimums or maximums or um so I just you know I [4:06:37] think it was uh interesting to see how popular they are for a variety of reasons obviously there's homelessness [4:06:43] is a huge issue in Southern California um and that's one of the um [4:06:48] precipitating factors but also it I think it reflects really well and all the work that Addison that you have done [4:06:54] and that you guys have all done um because I think this is very comprehensive and um it made feel very [4:07:06] proud yeah one last thing I just want to say 99.999% of the credit goes to [4:07:12] commissioner Smith did an outstanding job and and right [4:07:18] there thank you is that a motion I [4:07:26] hear just a nudge I just read [4:07:33] this or to do the uh I guess you can make a second I think he already made that motion yeah okay uh motion to [4:07:42] approve the accessory dwelling units ordinance with the conditions of striking item [4:07:48] number I and moving it forward [4:07:54] to G I'm sorry striking G um I'm moving it to the next stage of [4:08:01] city council review second all those in favor say I I I [4:08:09] opposed o motion carries good job everybody best wishes Addison to you and [4:08:17] your presentation and uh garnering the support we need to get this through for our [4:08:22] city thank you tremendously to everyone who's participated in this process [4:08:29] um it takes a village all [4:08:35] right yeah yeah uh we got some comments commissioner Smith yeah just to give a [4:08:41] few comments again um um I just want to thank everybody uh all the Commissioners [4:08:48] uh for really having solid debate deliberation it was just really [4:08:54] wonderful to get everybody's perspective of course the city and the staff Addison and team and residents residents really [4:09:02] um gave feedback you know it's something that they're very passionate about um we had focus groups everyone was very [4:09:09] passionate they see a need um and so I think you know hopefully we see folks [4:09:16] taken advantage and we want folks to take advantage of these of this the next stage of course we have to get it [4:09:21] through one more hurdle which is getting the city council to approve and and make and move this forward but we truly [4:09:28] wanted to do this for the city uh because it's such a strong demand for it and um I just want to thank the team for [4:09:34] all the hard work and supporting it so thank [4:09:39] you yeah awesome work we're just accessories to to it all so [4:09:47] yeah yeah yeah adjourn almost uh chair [4:09:54] and member comments that was one of them any others I know you had something to share yeah [4:10:01] so um we are uh uh what i g to do first [4:10:06] so the um AR thank you areas of potential [4:10:14] change um we are meeting this week not next week I was mistaken it's been a very busy week for me um we're meeting [4:10:20] this Friday to uh to kick that off so and we don't think it'll be very long I mean it it'll you know we're thinking [4:10:27] maybe four meetings or whatever just because we're just identifying things right we're not we're not evaluating [4:10:33] things we're not changing anything we're just saying hey these areas are changing or these areas in demand by developers [4:10:40] you know the city needs to look at this you know how the city does it would be another study or something so um so that [4:10:49] kicks off uh on Friday and then the other project is Lincoln and London Derry Drive um small area plan and so [4:10:58] that's been making a lot of progress so we are again thanks to City staff um we [4:11:04] have uh we got a bunch of uh proposals from Consultants we narrowed that down [4:11:10] the three of us narrowed it down to um Commission today and commissioner uh [4:11:15] felt and I uh narrowed it down to three and we interviewed those three today [4:11:20] actually right before this meeting so uh really good presentations really interesting so um we will come back uh [4:11:29] well and then in addition to that we also got Friday was the last day for [4:11:34] residents to apply to be on the on the uh work group working group for that so [4:11:41] um we got the list from the city and we are we have a bunch of questions and [4:11:46] things you want to go through and we want a nice diverse uh uh number of [4:11:53] people or not number of people but uh residents who will be on it we want uh [4:11:59] we're looking for six residents we got 39 applications for six residents so it's like getting into Ivy League school [4:12:05] or something and um so we're very excited about that and a lot of really great [4:12:10] people um applied very uh interesting looking at at the what their background [4:12:17] is um so we're going to be working on that over the next two weeks so those two things picking the final consultant [4:12:25] as well as picking the residents um the six residents that we want on this we [4:12:30] will have for the next Planning Commission meeting in two weeks awesome question on that process [4:12:38] I'm thinking through some previous small area plans sometimes it's come back to like the whole commission to help with [4:12:44] the recommendation of who to select have we not done that recently I [4:12:49] just I just know that happened for 44th in France um and and I think one of them [4:12:55] maybe the working group was in place and helped select [4:13:00] to select the consultant or help or the working group [4:13:06] The working group didn't they help select the consultant on one of those or at least provide recommendation didn't [4:13:13] think we were doing it any differently on this one but okay no I I was just curious just if cuz if if there's a time [4:13:20] where any of us are expected to you know provide feedback like you're waiting for that just it'd be worth knowing right [4:13:27] now you know to so we could share just from a selection process mean you want copies of the [4:13:33] presentations or what I just like I didn't know if that was part of your process cuz it you it used to be it for [4:13:40] like 44th in France so that's just why I'm asking if it's not then I don't think we need to change it at this point [4:13:47] I just didn't know if it was or not so what what was I little so like when we [4:13:52] selected you it was a a decision of the whole Planning Commission and when we [4:13:57] selected the the consultant the whole Planning Commission selected it or [4:14:03] provided a recommendation okay that was the full comprehensive plan oh was it [4:14:09] might have been a little different in that regard yeah okay yeah so it's the so this is the same regardless CU I was [4:14:15] involved in the I was on part of the subcommittee that picked the consultants for the uh greater um 70th and kill [4:14:24] greater cill district and we had a meeting and we you know it was just the [4:14:29] members of the committee that met okay and chose it and we and what we're doing this time also is we bring that back to [4:14:35] the full commission for your approval okay so we're going to tell you about the people we chose and tell you about [4:14:42] the Consultants we chose and and it's up to the full committee full commission to approve it yeah it's late and I'm [4:14:48] probably I just I want others to be prepared if we're expected to help make a decision in the next two weeks um but [4:14:55] if we're not that's easier for everyone so I'll send you 400 Pages doation i' rather rather defer to you guys you guys [4:15:02] are the ones leading it so you guys make the decision um any other chair and member [4:15:09] comments yeah yeah I mean I'm was really disappointed today I went to 50th in [4:15:16] France um to pick up a loaf of bread and I'm in the parking lot in front of luns [4:15:22] and there's um a vehicle in front of me and there's a handicapped guy in a [4:15:29] wheelchair trying to cross into the entrance into lungs where it's you know striped and everything or whatever and [4:15:36] the driver I mean the guy's going and the driver just keeps going and the guy's like you know this huge it was a [4:15:43] Jeep it was a big large vehicle and and the guy in the wheelchair is just like you know what are you doing and the guy [4:15:49] he just keeps inches inching along and then just drove right around the guy and [4:15:54] you know he was just like I he had a good attitude about it but I I feel [4:16:00] sorry for the guy it's just crazy that our society has gotten to the point where we don't even care about people in [4:16:06] wheelchairs so and then after that like seconds later somebody and this happens [4:16:12] all the time now um but somebody came and went the wrong way so I'm [4:16:17] going past the entrance to londs and this person is going next to me to my [4:16:23] left and so I made a left into the drive alley or whatever so then I Come Around The Other Side to park to get my bread [4:16:29] and then she comes in the wrong way on that lane and I've seen a lot of that lately and it's just like I don't know [4:16:36] do people not follow rules anymore maybe I'm a rule follower I don't know I just it just is disappointing I mean because [4:16:43] it's unsafe you know I mean there's reasons why we have regulations like that so anyway I just [4:16:51] disappointed well maybe on the opposite of disappointment thank you for joining the team and the inaugural which is [4:16:58] always a long meeting it's it always seems to be longing situation yeah any [4:17:03] feedback you have so far let you off late um no this was great thank you um [4:17:09] appreciate tolerating some of my uh beginner comments here so I appreciate it um I think yes Co broke a lot of [4:17:17] people and their courtesies to other humans and uh we it would be very depressing to spend the rest of the [4:17:22] night talking about that but we could there's not much left in theight to talk uh any other [4:17:32] comments all right Carrie nothing for me tonight all right uh with [4:17:38] tradition oh God what do I have to do ah motion to adjourn please [4:17:46] sir second second all those in favor say so moved the meeting has been [4:17:55] injured yeah I [4:18:11] know [4:18:41] e e