[0:02] this is the Planning Commission work session on March 27th 2024 staff [0:07] president Carrie Teague Liz Olen CLA hanaman Jimmy Bennett David alart Quincy [0:14] Smith Mar Bonnie Pan excellent we just have one work [0:22] session item to discuss and it's our continuing discussion on zoning ordinance regarding first floor ceiling [0:29] height and building transparency So based on our last work session I made the revisions that we [0:35] talked about we shifted everything into the greater Southdale District we talked [0:41] about doing the overlay so we've created the overlay because we're doing that we you [0:46] know we've got the 50 Foot setback and 30 foot setback in the Southdale District I move that into the overlay [0:53] District also that's why I was struck yes yep yep um so I'll show that here in [1:01] a second um don't remember where oh yes okay uh [1:07] how did we get to here sorry since I wasn't here for the last work session oh yeah sorry yeah so history on the whole [1:14] whole thing so out of the Southdale design experience guidelines came some [1:20] recommendations to have building transparency on the front that faces the public real to have [1:27] 75% and first floor ceiling height of new development to have 20ft ceilings [1:33] yep we put we took that from the guidelines and put it into ordinance [1:38] thinking those would be easy ones that was in 2020 it's one of those Co things [1:46] we did it all online but anyway it's proven to have never worked yes never [1:52] worked it goes against our sustainability policy um it's expensive it's not energy [1:59] efficient developers don't like it they've had a hard time meeting it some have um oh [2:05] some have some have yep um but oftentimes through the Pud we're varying [2:11] from it we're doing some we've done 10 some we've done 12 13 14 16 we're kind [2:17] of all over the place um so the Planning Commission had talked about it um making changes to the [2:26] code um and the city council as well so we put that on our work plan for this year so just to even though we've [2:32] granted variances it sounds like frequently when they've come up just to just fix it in the code for yep yep so [2:40] the way we discuss yeah discuss how to best do it yeah the way we did it is we [2:46] put it in every zoning district and not sure we in intended to do that so that [2:51] some of the discussion last week was this was really designed for the Southdale district and we also talked [2:58] about it's really meant for multi-story buildings because we that requirement is for just single story as well so that [3:05] was another one of the changes I made based on what you all talked about last week [3:11] um so what that two weeks ago two yeah two weeks ago our our last meeting we [3:17] also talked about putting in a little diagram to show how we measure the [3:22] ceiling height so I question about that so when I when I read maybe this is [3:28] terms of art that when I read slab to slab I'm thinking [3:34] that would be below the raised floor and above the joists that are showing there [3:40] yeah it's finished floor to finish ceiling it should go to the darker gray at the [3:46] top or the it should but isn't what we talked about we were going to measure it from I'm thinking of some of those [3:53] buildings in Downtown Minneapolis where all the mechanical is exposed right do [3:58] we want to measure to that I think we said the top just to allow like future [4:06] conversion because it's up to whoever to define the ceiling height yeah you could drop a ceiling you could drop it as low [4:12] as you want and I think we're talking about in here you know of like if you go around there it actually goes way way up [4:18] you know and oh yeah so is the 14 ft in your mind from here to it's like from [4:23] floor to like the bottom of slab it's the gray to gray right yeah oh okay the [4:29] dark floor to floor it's floor a bottom of floor to FL ceiling height which is a [4:35] little which is tighter yeah a little tighter well that it doesn't include [4:41] open web joist or mechanical equipment so that can be within that 14 ft that's [4:47] what we're saying yep I misunderstood I was [4:53] thinking that lad looking thing so if you were to put a hard a hard ceiling on [4:58] it you're looking at like a foot ceiling and that that's where I think [5:04] you're talking about the if this is more geared toward multi story like it might be easier to do floor to floor [5:12] height I mean if finish floor to finish floor it's just easier to [5:18] measure but then we might want to do a higher height yeah right to compensate I [5:23] think that was I think some of the concern in general is like what is that sweet spot number to allow for [5:30] conversion to allow for daylight and to the back of spaces and does it apply [5:37] right I mean this I think in general would be pushed Again by more the 100% [5:43] residential building but we wouldn't want to you know sacrifice that for retail [5:50] use or other to kind of shrink it too far so I think we just need to establish [5:56] like what that number is but have a more clear definition yep so I can try to play with this this [6:03] is just a cut and paste yeah but I little blue really [6:08] helps I mean typically like when you're discussing buildings it's usually floor [6:13] to floor height but then it gets complicated if it's only a one story building yep right so this is yeah [6:20] intended for multistory and just first fluoride [6:31] just to pigy back up what you're saying so I think there's two things right there's the where where's the measuring [6:38] points so I think we're good on the measuring points slab to slab but then the second part is depending on if it's [6:46] multistory or industrial zone or whatever the case is that's when you adjust the distance so it could be 14 ft [6:53] from slab to slab or whatever you know 20 ft from slab to slab but slab to slab is the measuring points what I'm hearing [7:01] I would agree and would think that 14 ft would be tight because if you were to [7:06] finish that you're going to end up with Heights of 12 feet which is not I mean [7:11] it's a big Lobby it's but it's not commercial yeah so so this is where you [7:17] had that chart of um what we planted variances for and where we planted [7:24] experiences most of the shorter ones are like the residential where that you're gonna [7:30] push for a lower height in your lobbies and if you have residential spaces which is also why they fought on the [7:36] transparency because it's privacy but that doesn't equally apply in like a [7:41] retail commercial office setting which is where this was in right it was in the [7:47] Pod or and um most of these [7:53] [Music] are you know the ceiling isn't going to be there's going to be trunks you know [8:00] in corridors and and places where that equipment is you know so you're going to have [8:06] soffets and stuff like this [8:11] um so I'm not as worried about the mechanical equipment as figuring out the right [8:17] floor to floor height but then you said so because this is just for the first floor right that's where the floor is [8:25] ceiling underside of ceiling because we're just concerned about the first floor height not the [8:31] overall building sort of floor [8:37] height so I I understand where that comes from the [8:44] force is a whatever they want to do up there it's got to be taller but then it gets into the you know sofs how you want [8:51] to administer that that's where maybe slab to slab is just simpler and cleaner and we just go with a higher number [8:59] then you don't have to factor in sofits and where you might have other limitations and where the building [9:05] officials are going to hold someone to it when you say slab to slab you mean the top of the bottom finish floor okay [9:13] so floor finish floor to finish floor we're still talking first floor finish floor to finish floor 15t first floor if [9:19] it's multi 14 is a minimum are we still concerned about the exactness of the number I think then it needs to be a [9:25] higher number okay even though it's a yeah just because we didn't we didn't [9:33] really establish last time what that definition was but the concern was how [9:38] much do we shrink it and then looking at other cities it's not necessarily clear [9:43] either if they other cities aren't regulating this kind of thing yeah so [9:49] for most of the variances that have been granted what height are is generally [9:55] being done in newer buildings Meson green over here is 12T [10:00] and that's again same measure same metric first floor slab to slab yep was it or was that the ceiling that's how I [10:08] read that is is it to ceiling that how we've got it written [10:13] you want me to pull the plans well however it was was measured [10:21] um it was 12 feet the 7200 7250 project we've reduced to 16 ft [10:29] hasn't been built but um that was multi story with retail on the lower [10:37] level uh let's see Edina fire station was 11 ft some of [10:43] these are single story The Edina 100 Apartments over here um building on [10:50] stilts across the freeway we approved that one at 13 ft First National Bank [10:56] which was a single story no two story Bank 13 ft is that first [11:01] level um Aon the affordable housing project was 10 [11:08] ft that dental office is going to come in at 12 feet for you in a couple of [11:13] months is a Fred in there uh didn't put the Fred in here I can I'll add that [11:21] though would be a good one it wasn't 20 I know that [11:32] so the number that's in there is 14 nothing magic about [11:42] it to be clear for everyone this is only for the Southdale area then yes yeah so [11:49] to kind of go through that so it's it's taken out of all other zoning districts [11:54] pod PCD PID all of those districts we're taking [12:00] the setback requirements out under the general standards in the Southdale district and we are creating this [12:07] greater Southdale overlay district with a boundary [12:12] map then we're putting the setback requirements back in 50 fet on France [12:18] and York and 30 feet on all others it's 50 feet to improvements right yep it's [12:25] curb to the building [12:30] this is probably background because I wasn't at the first meeting either but why are we taking it out of PCD and p [12:38] and p it's taking it out of all those zoning districts so it's not included in 50th [12:45] in France or 44th in France the um here in Grand View it's just so it's an [12:51] overlay so it would it was it was primarily because [12:57] that 20 foot measurement just didn't seem to apply to every area maybe it [13:03] maybe we want to revisit do we keep some sort of minimum it was 20 ft I what if [13:09] it was 15 say I don't know cuz I I wonder [13:14] about taking away any height requirement or first [13:19] floor height requirement from 44th in France and 50th in France and K Hill in 70th and all those places where we want [13:25] to have multiuse eventually you know [13:31] open reopening can of worms that's discussion centered around was around flexibility in the future right so if we [13:38] lock them into a certain height requirement would prevent other uses they don't need a 20 foot height requir [13:44] right so now we come back we come back the other way around right so guess if they come through with like [13:51] 10 11 foot be harder to convert that to a different use or that the problem is we [13:58] a lot of variances with the current requirement right so we like to come down 50th in France you know that's [14:06] generally 12 13 feet for those first floors down there to finish ceiling I [14:12] don't know that's what Bill told me they are I'm guess there in lies the route right [14:18] yeah yeah we'll have to do some more research on [14:24] that and I think that's I mean that's just where we want to get behind the definition [14:30] that allows future adaptability right I mean that's kind of what this all it's like that was the [14:37] fear of taking it out I think we all agree like the 20 ft maybe you could hold that in southill but elsewhere that [14:44] specific height just doesn't seem to match the character of any of those other buildings if you built something [14:51] next to anything in 44th in France or 50 in France and had a 20ft first height [14:56] it'd be a lot taller than everything else around but but you could have them all to use [15:03] there yeah so then what's that magic number to kind of guarantee any type of use [15:11] besides maybe an industrial one right I think 13 or 14 ft to finish [15:18] ceiling yeah and um back in Los Angeles they would have a lot of people convert [15:24] warehouses or storage units into um a place with a lot Loft and there for for [15:31] ceiling height was um so that there could be a 7t kind of office area yeah [15:36] in the back of places you know so you could have because a 7 foot is a minimum [15:43] ceiling height so if you're reusing something I [15:49] mean you know does it go to a higher lower purpose or you try get more things into it or you try to be more creative [15:56] is it you know so who's the enduser [16:01] so I don't know I'm still between the 14 Florida ceiling or floor to floor height [16:09] I'm still 50/50 on that cuz because this is [16:14] just about the first floor you're 5050 about whether it should be to from slab to slab or slab [16:23] to slab or slab to bottom of the structural slab slab in cuz in [16:30] commercial slab to slab or the bottom floor to floor yep or floor to the underside of [16:36] ceiling and it doesn't include the joist or mechanical [16:43] equipment I'm still I think from our last conversation is I think we all felt good of if this [16:52] space was finished 14 ft from the floor to that ceiling feels like a good [16:58] minimum but how do we want to Define that just because different spaces can [17:04] have how do we want to regulate it like when they're reviewing the plans and they're saying hey this works is it [17:11] that simple kind of How It's worded yes oops it's not up there this [17:19] definition is new what we used before is [17:26] this is big yeah yeah so you were going to have to get a variance or interpretation [17:34] anyway so the design experience guidelines under building form say [17:39] ground floor should have a minimum ceiling height of 20 ft for flexibility this floor to floor height will allow [17:46] the space to accommodate commercial two floors of parking or twostory townhouses that was South though [17:53] yeah experien so that's where this came from so we so we [17:59] talking this get kind of Lost in Translation do we want to keep 20 ft in South and then the other areas we wanted [18:07] to move down working in Southdale either [18:13] okay it's just expensive yeah but we haven't had a building like what he [18:19] describes the building should look like yeah right I mean he's talking about a street wall you I talked about this last [18:25] time he's talking about a street wall contiguous buildings um you know up to they're all at the same distance from [18:33] the curb so that that way it's like an urban space like they I say Manhattan [18:38] but you know downtown Minneapolis or whatever where you know even or 44th in [18:44] France or 50th in France where all the buildings all the old buildings from when there's a street car there but the [18:49] ones facing France are all the they're different owners different whatever but [18:55] they all have the same face and similar height right right first so I mean right [19:03] right you want us to go measure run out and measure France real quick I mean most of those proposals [19:10] weren't in soud right I mean you kind of have the fire station but that's SE yeah [19:16] the ones in Southdale haven't been built you know it's 7200 the Southdale Office Center um 70th in France a lot of those [19:25] multi-story multi-use buildings haven't been built [19:30] for whatever reason maybe it's the design guidelines maybe it's the economy it's extra conditions put [19:36] on yes All the first floor height is at this [19:41] building over here uh 12T it's 12T must be to finish cuz it definitely [19:48] is taller with can ask a weird question so when an [19:56] inspector inspects a building does he in ected before the roof gets put in or does he inspect it [20:03] before well they're reviewing the plans when it when the plan set comes in that's when we measure to make sure it [20:11] matches the plans that were approved by Council um once it's in they'll do their [20:16] field inspection whether they're actually measuring that height I'm not sure um but we're just assuming if the [20:22] plan set says 12 ft that's being built that way and a lot of preliminary point [20:28] land it's really floor to floor that you see and some of the others aren't necessarily fully vetted or they might [20:36] be but if there was a variance and it's coming before us that might not be fully baked at that time [20:43] either it's like if you think of like in a Lobby it might be higher than it set you know there's a s that's lower in [20:50] this room and so which one is and I think from [20:56] what Lou read it was floor to floor right is why I think we stay with that because there's so many other options [21:02] that you can get caught up in that keeps it clear are we does this definition cover [21:10] that yes I think the drawing is what does unless we want to say top top of slab because usually floor to floor is [21:18] from top to top cuz say you have like a concrete PT [21:24] deck it's maybe 8 in thick but maybe have open [21:29] web truss that's a thicker and but a thinner subfloor usually it's just floor to [21:36] floor simplest Florida floor is usually the simplest Florida floor is the simplest yeah the underside not [21:45] Underside this takes out all the variables you do whatever you want as long as it's soz you could have like a [21:52] sub Flor that's like this thick with open web or you could have concrete that's this thick with the drop ceiling [21:59] yeah so might as well just do to the top of so that sounds reasonable um so in [22:07] theory if we say floor to floor a builder could build a roof [22:13] really low and now would still pass this is just the first floor we're talking about though sure and and this [22:20] is the first floor of a multif floor building surean you could put a drop ceiling in and make it super low and [22:27] then that would that would correct and then the next user could come and take down the drop ceiling and [22:33] get the full clearance so so so my question is what are we regulating right are we regulating someone coming into a [22:39] nice open space in that case my experience is not floor to floor my experience is floor ceiling you're regul [22:46] well I think the point is by the floor to floor you're allowing a different use [22:52] within that space regardless of how the user may drop the ceiling or finish the [22:58] ceiling correct I understand that this is where Addison brought up all we started talking all about all the places [23:04] along France that you know did the window cling on the inside the Walgreens at market and France you know so they [23:13] shop yeah it's not transparent yeah yeah it's not transparent and then you know [23:18] do we go in and police everything um so I so I think in there if you want it to [23:24] have transparent and if we want to keep it simp simple Florida FL height but the [23:29] goal is for right because we've got the 50% transparency to to have this indoor [23:35] outdoor connection and talk about The Pedestrian um experience of being able [23:42] to see in somehow but we're we're not going to be able to well likely just if you care [23:51] about your space you're not going to do that to the users and occupants and and [23:56] again this wasn't regulated PR previously I don't think there's anywhere any Dina that you go and you're like oh this is too short I think [24:04] Builders would assume that it's Florida ceiling how this is written like when someone quotes me say [24:11] Flor the floor I know that's what uh that yellow section is this new language or is this it's all new y okay so if [24:18] someone tells me hey your your your your Florida height is is is 20 ft my [24:25] interpretation of that if it's vague is that it's from the floor to the ceiling [24:31] that's how I would interpret that and so I build my spaces with that in mind but if you're going to change that to now [24:37] floor to floor right and now it's up to me to determine how low I want to drop that ceiling then that could be any [24:44] height now right and if I have a concern about heat and energy I could take that super low that's going to save me energy [24:51] in one respect correct so where I'm going is is are these ordinance like who [24:57] is the real customer here right is it the people experiencing the space or is it developer I think it's it's [25:05] everyone right I mean I was going to say it was the flexibility of the space for future users it's preserving that option [25:13] not for the current tenant but for future tenants in the event that it's m [25:18] uh retail in the intent with the design experience guidelines was also to to [25:24] create you know a potential like if there's a minimum and it's a High minimum everyone's going to build to [25:30] that so you're likely going to have a pretty consistent aesthetic on the outside on the outside and how it [25:36] connects to neighboring buildings but then allows for the flexibility it yeah it was I mean it the [25:44] design experience guidelines were to create those Street rooms and not it to kind of step up and be totally um that [25:51] makes sense that makes sense um the push back from developers that's getting us to have this conversation what was their [25:57] concerns um cost cost of materials to build that [26:04] tall I'm going to in Energy Efficiency I'm to assume it's you have [26:10] to do steel to get to 20 can you do I mean depends on the they yeah they can do whatever I mean there's a variety of [26:18] means to achieve it but it's like like the products that you look at where they got the variance it's like a all [26:24] residential building so like they just didn't want to build a big Lobby I mean essentially that's what it was the [26:29] developer doesn't need a big Lobby for the purpose of that apartment building so he pushed back which means great but [26:36] in 15 years we can't turn that into a restaurant easily or turn it into some [26:42] other commercial building because code for commercial building required a a higher ceiling and now we're locked into [26:49] that being an all Residential Building forever cuz then also the first floor like you could have 20 foot [26:56] units that's usually why they push too cuz it's not just the lobby they're going to use the rest of the building it [27:04] just makes it more expensive to design and less energy efficient I like your point about um the [27:12] facade from the outside and that consistency I think that makes sense um [27:17] I can see how that can be floor to floor at least maintain that um and what [27:22] happens on the inside is up to the developer right and they could drop the seiling whatever is reasonable I guess [27:28] we have to pick a reasonable number of what a float of Flor is going to look like that could be flexible to different [27:34] types of um designs or uses could I suggest then that the [27:40] sentence would say first floor height shall be measured from the top of the first floor slab to the top of the [27:47] second floor slab and then get rid of the second sentence that's it and what would be the [27:54] number that you're proposing there you want a number too I mean it was so well [28:00] crafted 15 15 the baby sounds I don't know what the right number is I think it's less than [28:07] 20 and more than 14 but I have no idea here go and then this gets back to southill [28:13] versus other areas and I think that is a good question we want to probably talk about and I think to lose point you know [28:21] what was dreamed of South though just hasn't even no he's talking about like minimum [28:27] six story buildings right I mean and we're getting these little pdly things right and um the vision from the [28:35] Southdale thing and what city council is approving is completely different so I don't I don't know but if we I mean why [28:42] don't we ask him why doesn't yeah he tell us 20 [28:47] ft no but I mean what how to measure the just you know what you're [28:53] measuring I mean he would know what the technical term I'm trying to look up there's International code and I don't [28:58] know what all this is but um he would know I mean he's he just if you're going floor to floor it's it's always finish [29:06] floor to finish floor just in construction once you get above the first floor that's what the carpet here to the [29:13] top of the carpet on the next floor the same thing is that's what the elevations will show [29:20] just that seems to be clear and gives flexibility for heating the space or [29:26] cooling where can drop the ceiling down makes sense do whatever they want [29:33] basically mhm yeah I don't think he cared about the lowered ceiling height that [29:40] wasn't an issue it's it's he's talking about building for yeah yep [29:47] yeah so we all feel good about floor to floor at least that part they finish floor to finish [29:54] floor and I wouldn't say slab cuz you might have a a deck it might not be a slab so [30:00] there's yeah that makes it clean as clean as it could be now it's just the [30:07] magic number right how how much is standard H this is like a 18t or 18 in s [30:15] it twoot s it it all depends I mean [30:20] typically you can just widen it and uh the standards an 8 in duct and so with [30:27] the register you could have a 12 in s it height [30:33] wise if you go to 6 in or a taller one it's just custom [30:40] but depends on how much area you're moving through so from the user experience it's safe to say at least a [30:46] foot would be knocked off if you put a a s or some sort of hard [30:52] ceiling could be and then I guess to your point I mean if there's trusses you know there's a certain height to those [30:58] and then you'd run the mechanical through that people usually don't want to waste [31:03] their space either so yeah what is that magic [31:10] number I I mean I was looking into things too it seems like I couldn't find [31:15] anything anywhere of like a minimum first floor height just [31:22] anywhere but you can find Historical references to you don't want it too too [31:28] short to just allow daylight back to the backst places so it's maybe it's [31:34] going to cost more energy but you're going to have more Daylight it's kind of the more historical buildings don't have [31:40] really short first floors they're taller like 12 fet and the only thing a minimum [31:48] I mean I love the idea of 15 ft but we have we've had no projects come in and [31:54] ask for a 15ot rather than a 20 they've always they've all been 14 ft or longer well no [32:01] there the one the 7200 7250 project they asked for 16 ft [32:09] nice they didn't build it but yeah that's what they agreed [32:16] to you might get more more ads for 15 if you lower it from 20 right I mean [32:21] they'll say okay I can make that work rather than you know make M work got [32:28] right little less barrier to entry than if it's 20 versus [32:34] 15 I think 20 is just maybe from maybe it's some assumptions but a lot of the [32:40] design guidelines have those step backs starting at right 60 ft in height but [32:46] the 20 to 60 is like a clean 40 where it might be four 10t levels and maybe [32:51] that's why it just made it simpler maybe it's [32:58] should we ask like I don't know I'm just telling you what he said but he was really clear [33:06] about it you know because I came in towards the end of it and I remember him just being really really the design [33:11] experience guylines is just a tiny portion of the whole thank so so are we [33:16] like tracking back and 15 applies everywhere and and then we keep sou still higher I [33:24] mean is that on the table still in people's minds I don't the amount of variances that [33:30] we've seen for Southdale I hesitate to do that because it just defeats the purp I mean we're constantly granting [33:37] variances for something for a second time what have we accomplished yeah the [33:43] whole point of this is to make this practical right that's something that can be done [33:49] can be done and there were buildings I mean that Estelle project that then got [33:55] built it is a first floor 20 they did have 20t yeah it's just a one-story building which one and then [34:02] Restoration Hardware isn't that furniture stth in France called Estelle it was [34:10] called The Shops at aelle yeah but it's it's a furniture store blind store is [34:15] there oh sh the shade store [34:21] shade expensive very expensive stuff and then Restoration Hardware that head [34:27] taller first floor right yeah they have a real I was gonna say restation Hardware can't be a metric for anything [34:35] no but I mean those were the things kind of built during the development they s [34:42] Hamburgers abided by it while it was being developed and then the when it was set in stone that no one wanted to [34:50] yeah yeah we seem to get more mileage out of applying the principles than we did the code [34:58] so question um if I could just pose this question if we separate like the the [35:04] rest of the city and we treat Southdale as a unique space where the street Room [35:10] concept is what we want to continue there right that's where the Florida [35:16] Florida Finish Florida Finish floor would be very important in the Southdale area so if we just use that as a [35:24] definition for the Southdale area but then the rest of the city we go from floor to ceiling does that make sense [35:30] would that be just because we want to preserve the the street Room idea in [35:36] Southdale but the rest of the city we're a little bit more like what's reasonable for developer to think about where we [35:42] don't really want to preserve a street room so we just say Florida ceiling rest [35:47] of the City Florida floor South just putting it out there as I thought right but the same number for [35:55] both not I'm I'm I'm not talking numbers yet um just the definition I would think [36:01] we keep the definitions the same for ease of just interpretation regulation [36:07] but I think from how the dis the discussion went last time was we just talked about not even defining it for [36:14] the rest of Edina just Southdale and now we're kind of coming back to it which is [36:20] probably a good thing but the flexibility was you just take it out and now you have ultimate flexibility you [36:27] can build whatever a lot of push back on this like I know the council mentions it [36:33] every time they don't like these standards they may just strike it [36:38] completely that'd be their prerogative to say negotiating against ourselves a [36:44] little bit and if we're because if we all agree to 14 feet 16 feet whatever and then we all win the [36:50] lottery and aren't here in two years they're going to somebody's going [36:56] to come with a variance and want 12 ft so drawing a hard Line in the Sand only works if you actually stick to that line [37:03] otherwise we're just negotiating against ourselves leave it at what it is and make the developer come and ask for what they want and evaluate it on a Case by [37:09] casee basis which is what we've been do which [37:15] is what we right yeah but I'm wondering if we need like an anchor Point as a [37:20] reference point right if we if we do give a a a height number then they could [37:27] come above or below that at least we have a reference P um is what I'm thinking I don't understand what you [37:33] mean so if we say that it's going to be you know 14 ft and then they ask for [37:39] a variance to go down to 12 or a variance to go up to 15 then they could do that but now we [37:45] know it's going one foot above that 14t reference point or 2T below the [37:50] reference point what it is how is that different than them coming in right now where it's 20 is the reference point and [37:56] them asking for 13 okay so like what I was trying to understand I guess is if we already have [38:03] okay so you're saying at the 2 fet is the reference point that we have today correct okay and what you're saying is [38:10] don't change that just have them come in with variances and we just um look at [38:15] that and make a decision you know your point about the 60 foot being the setback in southill [38:22] for the street rooms height yeah for the height [38:28] I mean I think a little bit more study has to be done I mean I think we're just equivocating between different numbers [38:33] and we're kind of picking different numbers and it's like what about this what about this without any kind of we're B we're bending to the developers [38:41] yeah woes right yeah but we've also got this 60 foot setback thing which we're [38:48] sticking with um so once again I mean maybe getting a little bit of background [38:54] from Mick but kind of understanding where some of those buildings are doing cuz we have buildings that are doing the [39:00] setbacks at 60 ft setbacks but they're not doing the step back yeah I think the 50 and the 30 [39:07] foot setbacks they've been they meet that no the uh step back the [39:14] can yeah they're generally doing that for the multistory okay maybe that tells us [39:20] something maybe that tells us that that that that's a viable practical practical [39:26] you know to apply that is practical application but that that the height doesn't so if you have like a 14t [39:34] ceiling height or a 15t ceiling height you either have 45 ft left over 46t left [39:40] over you know and they 10ft ceiling Heights or 12ft sealing Heights I'm just saying yeah I'm just saying are we [39:48] mucking with some of our other stuff I mean they could they could step back lower yeah there's nothing magical about [39:54] that 60 ft it's again they're just guidelines so if they start to step back except that's another Street room kind [40:00] of thing like if we start they had the up down cabinets in the kitchens for a while that lasted for about two years [40:08] you kind of want to have I think just sorry just taking a step back I mean [40:13] this all goes to like this was envisioned for the Southdale area this was never envisioned for all [40:20] OFA so I think the 20 ft in general or whatever that number wants to be [40:26] certainly doesn't apply to to the rest of VI I mean it was written for the South Del area and we all agreed that is [40:31] a different area has a different Vision so I think to keep things simple unless [40:38] there's a good reason back to our last discussion is we eliminate this from all [40:43] these other areas in Idina which was the case previous to 2020 and what does that [40:48] put the there's no there's no regulation there was never a regulation [40:54] on it so does that mean then that the kill and [41:01] the 44th node could be developed completely as residential [41:07] with no possibility of a retail use or a commercial use well with K the small [41:13] area plan for 44th in France it has to be and we changed the code last year to [41:20] make it clear that you can't do Standalone residential in the [41:25] commercial District got it okay and so then it benefits [41:30] whoever's doing that to design appropriately so then if you design and it can handle retail likely it can be [41:36] converted into something else that works but then now you're stuck at the first floor height that's going to allow [41:44] flexibility and I think again like 44th in France and 50th in France like we're saying it isn't the scale of Southdale [41:51] like some of those buildings that are there like again a 20ft height would not make any sense if would come up to the [41:58] second floor the neighborhoods to that to that point to the extent that you know we we [42:04] we've heard about how Simon is is um infusing all this money into Southdale and the Galleria is changing ownership [42:11] and there's a huge amount of movement just within those two shopping areas so to the extent anything is being [42:17] redeveloped it's going to have to go through through us if it's a new building they're just [42:24] remodeling so they wouldn't be subject to the fail in Galleria there's [42:30] discussion about you know like connect I've heard anyway connecting um Restoration Hardware to the rest of [42:38] Southdale oh um so so that would so I'm just wondering how if if we start [42:45] dealing with kind of that kind of stuff and we go through all of this only to [42:50] find out that you know Simon with his muscle or whatever comes in and says you know we want 13 [42:57] ft you know or something like that we want to build you know things like Restoration Hardware you're going to ask [43:03] for a variance and we're going to say no I'm I'm just I'm just trying to think about all the different things that we [43:09] need to think about here there's there's a lot of other players when it comes to Southdale there's a lot of you know and [43:15] in in Galler I feel like you I I feel like I don't have enough information for [43:21] this yeah feel like you don't have enough information to change the number or to [43:27] make it you know when when we're saying 14 or 15 or you know 20 or 13 Whatever [43:32] It Is Well I think that the main push was to get it out of the recipe din which is fine and if you look at a lot [43:39] of those proposals they're not in Southdale yeah so do we keep the higher number at Southdale yes because that was [43:46] what was envisioned there and there are buildings that have conformed to it in Southdale so far yeah or do we keep it [43:53] until we get a little more information yeah right do we do nothing I mean it might [43:59] take a while to get the information and I'm not saying do it but um I think [44:05] we're genely gone right now on Southdale it feels like but I agree with you on [44:11] the rest of yeah I think we simplify it I just I'm wondering what further [44:16] information we're going to get like I tried to find information so you've [44:21] tried to find information yeah building code information like I'm not sure what information I can get at this point that [44:27] would for my decision one way or the other need an actual project to look at [44:32] say but like in terms of large scale data from other cities other are where else haven't seen it right it's kind of [44:40] just yeah would be existing ceiling yeah and a lot of it's built to the culture of that City and it seems like as a [44:46] community we rallied around the 20 fet at Southdale and agreed to it so I don't [44:51] know why we change it there I can see why we change it everywhere else or just eliminate it because [44:58] it doesn't seem necessary Minneapolis and that's where people are asking for the [45:04] variances and having harburn for the most part one thing the council keeps [45:10] mentioning the reason they want to do it as the sustainability policy well kind of goes against that [45:18] you drop the ceiling you can do that's I think this FL floor scenario seems to [45:23] address that even if we go to 14 ft or whatever that number is in the Southdale District [45:30] or right but I have a problem with no minimum height at all well because I [45:37] mean there wasn't any before 2020 and then no other cities around us have one [45:42] it's just it's just not it's not something typically regulated and the design guideline is no minimum south or [45:49] no minimum everywhere everywhere aside from sou okay that's confirm that's what [45:55] David keep Southdale no everywhere else so let me I'm just let me think out [46:00] loud see what people think so I'm thinking in my mind of say 70 ink Hill [46:06] where hopefully there'll be some Redevelopment someday and they're going to get torn down and [46:13] we're going to build something new and we're going to be wanting to have Street rooms there too because Street rooms are [46:20] all about pedestrian experience and walkability and a community Vibe and all that kind of thing at least the way I think about it I could be using the term [46:26] ofar wrong but that's the way I think about it so when I think of Redevelopment of 70th in kahill or 54th [46:33] in France or any of these places that are now PCD or P or pod or what's the [46:40] other one PID I don't know I can see some benefit to having a first floor minimum height [46:46] re minimum first floor minimum height requirement small in those scenarios they'll be coming in and asking for [46:54] likely a rezoning or PUD or whatever our new zoning District whatever we come up with and they're going to go through [47:01] sketch PL some of those things could be negotiated too because they're going to be asking for then we flood it with variant [47:07] requests if we can put a minimum elsewhere outside of Southdale with the the mix like the [47:15] mixed use [Music] piece have the 20t now right in P 20 ft [47:24] everywhere right now so there must be 20 ft everywhere it's probably the most common variance that we see [47:31] yeah out and we're seeing it not in Southdale and I would say like I would [47:37] say if there were a concern with buildings coming in that didn't jve with it's the exception know [47:45] it has its own kind of character too and people tend to kind of build in relative shape and [47:52] form does 15 ft work everywhere maybe I mean originally would Deale valy view was locked at two stories 20 ft you know [48:01] everything was you know three stories 30 ft so you like 15 foot for a first story [48:08] just won't even make sense there um anywhere so you're saying if something [48:13] is say um I can't read the colors on this thing [48:18] but I think the 70th and K Hill is planed commercial most of it so you're [48:24] saying if somebody wanted to do multi-use development there which we I would like that they'd have to come in [48:30] for a reone of some kind anyway they'd have to have retail or some sort of [48:36] non-residential use on the first level by today's code if it's PCD I [48:43] think it is by today's code yes so I don't need it's all Up For [48:50] Debate so I think we I think we strategically covered ourselves with that change which is probably the best [48:55] one we've done in couple years okay that makes sense to me now [49:01] thanks cuz that was a a huge amount of heartburn for they requiring a retail on the first floor [49:11] yes so the big change that we talk about here is keep saltdale the same as it is [49:17] today with better wording better wording keep it separate keep it separate from [49:22] the rest of the city at least for right now keep it at 20 keep it at 20 [49:28] Southdale you're saying keep it at 20 yeah well I think I think unless we [49:33] have like a really good reason to change we keep it the same I mean we had an [49:39] expert who came up with the thoughts otherwise I don't know I feel strongly as a developer that we're negotiating [49:45] against ourselves because we'll come and ask for what we want you guys we can say no but if we lower it then they're just [49:51] going to come and ask for a different lower number the change here that might be helping us is we're now making it clear [49:57] that it's only for multi-story buildings some of these have been just the [50:03] one-story buildings where they're asking for variances because like a one-story [50:09] office building dental office or right yeah doesn't make any I mean that makes sense [50:14] to me because it is a different purpose non-residential to begin with but 20 ft is going [50:20] to cause heartburn out there if we keep it at that and I don't know what the how [50:25] the council would feel I was going to say what what yeah are the count what's the feedback specific feedback from the [50:31] council that they're wanting us to I their biggest concern is it's not it [50:39] goes against our sustainability policy that we're requiring these tall ceilings although maybe with this floor to floor [50:45] we're addressing that a little more yeah Le sh but it's not energy efficient to have that tall first floor yeah well [50:53] tearing a building down isn't very sustainable so reusing a building is way way more sustainable so if you keep it [51:00] you know slab to slab or whatever at 20 ft then like he says you can use it for two-story tow houses you can use it for [51:06] two stories of parking um commercial space whatever but you can drop the [51:12] ceiling you know for environmental reasons or whatever but building reusability is a huge thing especially [51:19] postco where we don't know what the hell building is going to be used for anymore yeah so it's very sustainable keeping [51:27] everything consistent and is the council's feedback in the context of the [51:33] design guidelines and what Mick has outlined as you know um kind of a best [51:40] case scenario I mean how how do they how do they Square how are they squaring it's mixed some of the council one [51:48] council member doesn't think we should have the design guidelines and it should just be tossed oh um [51:54] fful yeah sort of the elh of the room is that they were prated under one Council [52:00] you know and three councils later we have a different Council I think I think a lot of their [52:07] heartburn is areas outside of South Dill as well I [52:12] mean this seems obvious just the varying from those standards with almost every [52:17] project that we see yeah I mean so it's a step forward [52:23] MH getting rid of it outside of the South doing the over step forward and clarifying multi- story and clarifying [52:30] floor to floor right so all we're doing is leaving the 20 but we're changing three they put [52:36] one just make it that much better 50% transparency we good with [52:41] that I know that came up and I think Ryan mentioned something because I think [52:47] we liked the old wording of you know just what faces you know especially like in the [52:53] Southdale area it's like every side should have a face um so it looks like we're keeping in the [53:00] old wording right you know the the street the fa that faces public realm [53:05] yes y because I think originally what you guys have proposed that was struck [53:10] so having that still in there I think is important yep and I think we had a foot [53:16] measurement and someone mentioned eye to eyes yeah and and that's languages for [53:22] everywhere or just south just south [53:30] just and so the way this is written is this would be yeah this would apply to one-story buildings too so the way [53:39] that's written it's sort of confusing what transparency means [53:45] 50% my understanding was that it was 50% or it was [53:51] 75% of the surface was glass not the glass was 50% transparent what do we [53:58] it's basically like if you took a line across a building face 50% of that line [54:03] would be glass oh I think you missing the word transparency after 50% we crossed out 75% transparency and just [54:11] wrote 50% is that what you're saying Lou well that should [54:19] be it just has to be 50% of the w% transparency it's basically like if you [54:24] did a line at eye level across I don't understand I don't understand the eye level thing either so like this so [54:31] that's just where you're measuring transparency from it's like when you're walking by if you walk by this wall if you drew a line across it it'd probably [54:38] be close to 75% of it's transparent it's 100 fet long wall then you have to have [54:44] it okay but if you look at the diagrams and everything that he had he's talking [54:50] about the surface not a line is this in in the design experience I mean I'll [54:57] have to look it up but I because you know an oldfashioned storefront is All [55:02] Glass yeah right it's you so then again is this more thil oriented [55:11] only I think you still think give him a point of reference yeah right like if you have a 10t [55:17] wall 50% transparency you were really weird you could put the first five Feer brick and [55:24] the first the next five feeter windows will well you can't really see in the building if you're sitting in a wheelchair right or something I mean it [55:30] just gives you here here's where I draw my line to measure my 50% transparency I think that's all we're trying to [55:36] accomplish is how do you define that 75% transparency you can't possibly have a 5 [55:43] foot high wall wouldn't work no I know but the 75 the point of reducing it from [55:48] 75 to 50 is because we keep getting request to change it from from 75 to to [55:54] low to a lower number everybody says effici energy efficieny Energy Efficiency [56:00] standpoint Etc they don't want 75% transparency that's mostly residential [56:06] where you have units and you need privacy and you're not going to have a bunch of Windows in your bathroom at [56:12] ground level you don't even South there Z for medical they're like well we don't 75 is people on the first floor don't [56:19] want to be seen I think to lose point is surface area wise of the first floor [56:26] being versus a line yeah so do we want to main my understanding of [56:33] what okay so then maybe let's keep it that so maybe it's a diagram that shows [56:40] that that 50% of the all 50% within the first level that was that what you're saying [56:48] square footage yeah I feel like I'm sorry but I feel like we're asking a [56:57] commission of ordinary humans to make these decisions where I think we should have a consultant or somebody architect [57:05] somebody here or Mick to help us with this because I think you know there's so much misunderstanding there's so much [57:12] you know what did he mean and what does it mean and whatever and I'm not an architect I'm just going by what I've [57:19] read and I've read other things and they talk about transparency and it's the surface area so um I guess I just feel [57:27] uncomfortable yeah legislating this stuff without without [57:33] expert yeah get that I think or a compelling reason to make a change I [57:40] think we keep the first part of the sent so I think that's one thing we agreed on last time was you know what because it [57:47] used to say I think it was between like the front of the building but we wanted to make sure okay but see now it says [57:54] public streets right we don't have public Street the way they were going to divide up 70th in [58:00] France street so then just streets sidew [58:06] it we've got a public easement over it we've interpreted that as it has to yeah [58:12] maybe it just says public real because that fits everything we want doesn't it well I think we should have public [58:17] streets but um well I don't know it's inviting a lawsuit and if they win it we've lost so inviting a lawsuit the [58:26] difference between if they if the city interprets it one way and it says it in a very generic way they can sue to say [58:32] hey it doesn't actually say that so I mean is there a legal definition for public realm that covers [58:39] that all I don't know I'm not an expert I think that's just what we want to vent [58:45] but that's already in the code right now it is so like we could get sued today [58:51] without us touching it so always get sued well yeah this is [58:59] true I've never had any issues with developers arguing that where we're getting a [59:06] public easement over the look at the developer at [59:13] 6600 6800 they're not going to be working with the city we're going to have other [59:19] developers like that no where the 6600 6800 the one we saw last [59:26] yeah where it's you know they're just they're not following anything that we [59:32] say it doesn't follow anything with the design experience guidelines and it's in Southdale yeah it's a huge prop piece of [59:38] property and that kind of like the owner of the you know the stuff near the Fred [59:45] where it's like he was just going to keep the old buildings and punish the city or whatever we get developers like [59:51] that right or or the one we were just talking about the one story 30 foot high building building which was going to be [59:57] where the 25 Story Tower was but he couldn't get the tower so he he got pissed and so he built a one-story [1:00:02] building I mean we get developers like that and the city's been sued for something before I'm sureff sure we've been sued [1:00:10] for multiple things was a it was a it was a zoning thing we got sued for a [1:00:16] subdivision that met code that the council denied we lost that one we got [1:00:22] sued for a setback issue over on oaklan we lost that one or residential or commercial yeah not a [1:00:30] good not a great record lawyer I think we we've won mostly [1:00:38] recently that's good those were a long time ago so I guess back to the [1:00:43] transparency piece I mean were we good with the reduction from 75 to 50 also or [1:00:50] is that kind of up in the air if this is just Southdale area cuz again this is [1:00:55] pulled out of everywhere else now it's just Southdale maybe it's [1:01:01] a let's like every building I'm sorry I was going to say leave what the expert [1:01:06] did my opinion leave what the expert did for Southdale pull it from the nons [1:01:12] Southdale notes that would be my vote I agree right and if somebody's [1:01:18] going to come and say hey we're building a gynecologist's office and there's a bunch of exam rooms we'll be like yeah [1:01:23] we don't want transparency there and we'll move F that makes sense to me too I mean [1:01:29] right yeah I yeah which begs the question of what kind of services should be on the first floor and what kind [1:01:35] should be on the and Def front facing though right public facing public [1:01:42] facing not the other three sides pretty much everywhere should be all four sides [1:01:49] at least the 70th and France project that's all four sides for all four sites yeah yeah [1:01:57] everyone good with that you leave the same saltdale China fwh y but back to 75 back to 7 yeah [1:02:06] don't change from what the that's my vote don't change from what the experts said for Southdale until we have more [1:02:11] information or compelling project to make us look at it and we're going back to 20 yeah we had a lot of people [1:02:18] request for on the transpar it doesn't matter whether it's in saltdale or out [1:02:26] this has been a problem for for both for both yeah which again they because this [1:02:32] was written for Southdale and it doesn't really apply or make sense to a lot of other areas right but it's still we [1:02:40] varied from it in Southdale too right because we have a lot of very short buildings which was not part of the [1:02:46] design so the thing is you know our job is to make a recommendation to the city [1:02:51] council and the city council has every right to overrule us but but I think we should present what we believe the [1:02:58] answer should be right and then they can they can override us that's their that's their [1:03:03] uh so what we're saying is our vision is the same in Southdale we keep I don't [1:03:09] know how how much confidence we project in our opinion I mean if we're saying that we think we should keep it 75 and [1:03:15] 20 and then we keep allowing variances and because that people them then I'm not sure that're projecting much [1:03:21] confidence in the decision that we've made today like our recommendation standing sticking to our guns but we're [1:03:27] not doing that today some of the evidence is there were buildings built to that standard previous to 2020 and we [1:03:33] just haven't even seen any built since [1:03:39] 2020 I think doing the overlay at Southdale is huge and letting the other [1:03:44] areas kind of do their own thing um and it just gives us a negotiating [1:03:51] point when people come forward for making so then do we need to redefine the [1:03:57] transparency based off of what L said and what Ryan brought [1:04:03] up of not making i% of the public um facing facades at ground [1:04:14] level I don't you know if they come show us a rim drain and there sentence [1:04:22] right that's right what you're saying yeah 75% transparency so we're ESS not [1:04:30] changing this yeah at all we're not changing it at all we're just moving it [1:04:35] to southill only yes which I think I think that's a big thing yeah I think [1:04:41] it's a that's a it's a big step because the biggest variances in general have been outside [1:04:47] of the Southdale area if you look at the list or like the dental office that was one story did I hear that right yeah [1:05:01] I'll beef up that table there's a lot more examples that we and I mean I think to their commission's concern about or [1:05:09] the council's concern about uh Energy Efficiency by measuring by clarifying [1:05:15] how we measure in multi-story buildings we have created ways for The Architects [1:05:20] and developers to create more Energy Efficiency within their space based on ceiling height [1:05:27] yeah has anyone ever dropped a ceiling 8 feet I think right here right how far up [1:05:34] does that go can you see see the top of [1:05:40] it that's probably there we go tell the council we based it on this [1:05:47] room said it's six feet we looked around the community room [1:05:52] and this was their decision how they said think outside the box we said [1:05:58] no in the Box all right in the interest of time to be continued and we'll make these [1:06:04] changes and continue our discussion