[0:01] welcome to the January 10th Planning Commission work session we have commissioner Strauss Bel Pedas Smith [0:08] Miranda and staff we have Carrie tlz Olson Addison Lewis and Chris [0:14] AER all right did you have anything you wanted to say to start us off or you [0:19] want me to jump into it I just say a few words so thanks again everybody for coming in today um to talk about to [0:27] continue the Adu discussion um we had some really good feedback um the last [0:32] session and we're going to cover those today um I'm hoping that at the end of [0:38] end of day today the last few items that we have to cover we we get them done so [0:43] then we could finalize what the draft Ence would look like and we can start routing it for us for more formal review [0:50] but this is just more of a conversation to hit some of those key points I know we had some things in there with [0:56] setbacks there's one of it we have minimum size another part and a few other items and so Addison will help [1:03] kind of guide us through that but looking forward to your input again right so yeah just a quick recap [1:11] uh like commissioner Smith said uh at our last meeting we talked a bit about setbacks and height um had a lot of [1:20] discussion about that I think there was pretty good consensus on a lot of it it seemed like the one area where there was [1:26] a lot of discussion was just the appropriate height for an Adu above a [1:31] garage um specifically that rear yard setback um so we plan to talk a bit more [1:37] about that today we talked a little bit about parking last time and um there was some indication that or some feedback [1:43] that Commissioners felt we could um go without having a minimum requirement for uh number of parking stalls for Adu uh [1:51] and then we talked a little bit about some of the design requirements that were in the draft ordinance as well um so today we thought we'd continue that [1:57] discussion on setbacks for twostory adus um oh we also talked about you know [2:02] exceptions for existing structures and non-conforming structures and um after a bit of discussion staff has some some [2:09] thoughts on that so we could share that as well and then um it was mentioned uh that we wanted to discuss minimum size [2:14] requirements for an Adu again um so I don't have much of a presentation I thought we could just [2:20] kind of pick up pick up where we left off it was asked if we could come up with some better visuals to kind of [2:26] explain the setback requirements um cuz I know it was it was a little bit confusing explaining it [2:32] verbally um so this these are examples of a typical 50 by 200 foot lot um which [2:39] is typical for morning Side neighborhood actually um so this shows how if you had [2:46] my mouse will work um a on story Adu uh the [2:51] requirement would be that it be 5T from side and rear lot lines if it was a two-story Adu it would need a me [2:58] principal structure setback so that's where it bumps up to 25 and I think that's where you guys were having a lot [3:03] of discussion as to that that's just a big jump going from 5 to 25 and there [3:08] was a lot of discussion about how we' maybe find something in between or do we go with a sliding scale um and then for [3:15] a two-story Adu that abuts an alley um it needs to be it can it can be as close [3:22] as 5T from the alley right away and then we need to meet principal structure setbacks everywhere El go back to that [3:28] middle one that 25 ft what was the what was why was it felt necessary to be 25 ft so we just said [3:37] that a two-story Adu would need to meet principal structure setbacks okay so okay um trying to be [3:46] just consist kind of consistent with the primary drawing but [3:51] um you could come up with something different if you feel it's more [3:56] appropriate yeah the two stories five feet off would have an impact on [4:02] the joining property whereas with the alley there's [4:08] a buffer okay I got yep cuz the typical alley right ofo is about 14 ft so with [4:15] the 5ot setback here about 19 ft from the next property to the [4:20] rear um you know we talked about like a sliding scale was brought up we could do that [4:26] um that's possible um I think for Simplicity we'd probably encourage you [4:32] guys if if five is too close and 25 is too much I think we would encourage you [4:37] to find something in the middle of that that feels right whether it's 10 12 15 [4:43] whatever it might be um and so oh to these Graphics uh they are to scale so [4:49] they kind of show you the relationship of the size of an Adu relative to the size of the lot so [4:56] and here's one with a 75t wide lot when you when you have a two story Adu that [5:02] principal structure side yard set back gets increased to 10t so that's really the only difference but a one story [5:09] could still be at 5T oh two stories back 10 ft [5:15] so that's more and like so the everything north of 42 is more like [5:21] 140t set back like on the left there and I don't know well there's a lot of [5:27] variation um in the in the depths I [5:32] guess this is pretty typical for say Country Club District ter yeah and post [5:38] World War II yes post world because yours is deep 200 ft yeah and and mine [5:45] is you match the street GD of of St Louis Park M yes we don't yes so and [5:51] Monterey might be a little bit deeper but I think anything kind of North so here's an example of some [5:58] Lots in morning side that 50 x 200 with detach garages that are more than 25 ft set back from the [6:05] rear so it can work but certainly when you have lots that aren't as deep you're going to be pushing up closer to the [6:11] house and this is where if I'm in my backyard enjoying it I would probably [6:17] rather have something towards the back than right next to where I'm probably kind of [6:24] working or hanging out right if I go out in my backyard I probably [6:30] stay in the backyard that's closer to the house because that's where the patios are you go in and get drinks or [6:36] whatever it is and you go out so then you have the two-story thing right there [6:42] rather than in the back corner that's this is what's throwing me on [6:47] these yeah I mean I brought up the you know 25 ft back is I mean you're going [6:53] just have a much smaller backyard as the homeowner yeah you know and you'd almost think your neighbor behind you would [7:01] rather have a building than have their backyard which is now very small yeah [7:08] you know it's going to be they're going to be playing or whatever in the backyard right next to the fence or [7:14] whatever so I don't know seems like you should incentivize [7:19] having the colon area in the center you know the property owner can divide it up if they want but and for me the thing is [7:28] if it's it'd be nice if could be a story and a half right just enough to be able to put [7:35] a little living space up above not a full twostory so that's cuz I think they can [7:43] be [Music] charming and more right just like a fence you know it's a dimentive house [7:50] I'd rather have it on the fence line then right in the middle of my the [7:58] backyard adjacent to me if one was built next to me I'd rather have it way in the [8:06] back um when you say a a story and a [8:15] half um they they would live in the first story but could he live in that [8:20] half story yeah well that and that's the one Christopher [8:26] stom um section that you had um from a long time ago [8:33] yes so that is 16 ft 11 at [8:38] midpoint you get and that's an 86 it gets a little tight up there but [8:46] even at like 19 ft you [8:52] get a more pleasant [8:57] space in the second floor or it would almost be like a loft right it almost be [9:03] well this would be like a loft but you so that one you got there's the 5 foot um 14 by 26 that's 24 by [9:13] 26 so correct me if I got these numbers Heights wrong but so for the accessory [9:20] dwelling unit you could go to 25 ft to the top to the the very highest point of the with a [9:29] single family home the the maximum is 30 ft so the single family I think I got [9:35] that right so the single family home is going to be a little bit bigger we're not allowing them quite as tall at 25 [9:42] ft just to give you a little compar we measure to the peak so like in this [9:48] figure that crits on this would measure at [9:53] 24t because that's how I yeah yeah cuz in um and that's what in Country Club [10:00] that's where I did the garage Edition and we did some storage up above and did a pull down stair but that little [10:05] leftover space was just a little too short to be in there comfortably as a [10:11] full-grown adult and that's and that's where my [10:17] clients right they they follow the letter of the law and then the two adjacent projects to the north that were [10:25] done prior were much larger and that was the 18t height the iranic [10:34] mine was the 18 foot height yeah Heights came down what the measurement for [10:41] measured Heights came down yes yes and I and I understand that but for an Adu I [10:48] think it'd be more pleasant having and say if four houses had adus and they all [10:53] put them in the back corner everybody would have like a nice yard in front of it otherwise there's going to be [11:00] this weird leftover space between them where the old paint [11:07] buckets and the overturn Rob boats are going to hang out and nobody and the weeds are going to start taking over [11:15] that's what I worry about that kind of leftover space behind there and I think if there's [11:24] just a little bit more height loud and even just like a [11:31] foot it makes a world of difference [11:37] for a little space a little living space I think we're talking here about a [11:42] twostory ad first of all generally speaking be a garage type of space right [11:49] just because the maximum floor space would be a, square foot so you could [11:56] live bigger build it yeah it be a [12:01] uh well the the max size is, Square ft if it's a story and a half the first [12:08] story is liveable and the second half story or the half [12:14] story that would also count towards the space right and [12:20] so I just don't see how add half [12:26] story would make sense um if you were living in the lower [12:33] section anyway but you could [12:39] build like a 300t smaller section Below on footprint and have your living space and then have [12:46] a bedroom upstairs that's 150 square ft [12:53] and and it'd be a pretty nice little structure so I think we're we're eliminating [12:59] a possibility which they allow in Minneapolis they allow [13:07] 640 um well that was a while ago when I looked at the Minneapolis the 640 foot [13:17] um so it's not but it feels like we're we're dis we're disincentivized in [13:26] disincentivizing a Charming Middle Ground around so we're it's either one [13:34] story or it's this larger two-story thing and and we're not [13:39] allowing I don't I don't think the one and a half story would be [13:45] prohibited that scenario wouldn't be prohibited in what you're saying you're doing it's the 18t to the max you're [13:50] doing the at8 we're saying 25 it could be up to 25 but then it has 25 yes yeah yes so [14:00] if it's if it's 5 ft from the property line it has to be 18 ft and there's no [14:06] real way to make that second make that half story yeah so it's like we're we're here [14:13] or here but there's this kind of sweet little um structure that we're not [14:21] allowing and that's what at 5T that you would still want to allow at 5T but [14:27] not yeah all the way up to 25t yes well you're doing a Max [14:35] height um but if someone did a one and a half [14:40] story where it had you know like it's a miniature Cape Cod or a miniature salt [14:47] box those won't happen or even having a little Studio [14:55] above um a little studio apartment above a garage in the the back isn't going to [15:00] happen at that 18 ft quick question um that's interesting [15:07] just so I could understand this too if I'm 5T from the rear yard setback right [15:13] I have a one story or one level Adu with my roof height that can go up to 18 [15:20] ft y so that would be like the half story right but you can't if you're um [15:28] so say your floor plate is 6 in above grade and you have an 8ft ceiling and [15:34] you have 12 in of floor structure you've only got a little under [15:39] s feet than above that so that you can't live in that [15:45] um I mean I think 7 ft is the minimum but it's a little unpleasant so it doesn't allow for a [15:53] normal ceiling height in that half story at 18 feet it [16:00] allows for S feet going down but it doesn't allow you to have a [16:07] little area where there's a decent ceiling height what are you saying that as a [16:13] neighbor you're worried about that one and a half stories or one story that's [16:19] still too high is that what your work well there's two things I think [16:24] um I think we have to think about the neighbors that live in the yards behind [16:30] and the sides and we don't want to have too large of an opposing structure close to the fence [16:37] oil so that's one and the other part was um if we could allow a 18 ft structure [16:45] but we live on one story but we could build up to 18 ft tall 5 ft from the [16:50] from the rear lot line up to 25 ft on the rail L line so we're not going to build a TW story yet we're still in at [16:56] 18 foot height I just was thinking that the 18 ft height is a one and a half [17:02] story that you could build between 5 and 25 ft from the ra so I feel like it was accomplishing [17:08] the goal still and you can build it anywhere within that range um well at 18 feet [17:15] once again you got a floor structure and you got the first floor height and you've got whatever structure you have [17:21] this kind of Loft space you're kind of if people want to have a little Loft [17:27] space you're pushing them into a a modern box flat roof box and you're not [17:35] allowing some of these more Charming [17:41] profiles so I just wanted to point so this is what's in black is the existing [17:46] ordinance we do allow one and a half stories to be 5T from the rear light [17:52] line but what I think I hear you saying is just that that's just really difficult to do under 18t [17:59] it wouldn't allow for a large yeah what you're getting is storage space but not [18:04] living space right it's just not usable for anything other than you can get up [18:09] there but it's it's like it would be right above my head and I couldn't gotic storage yeah yeah or you have to go [18:15] between the Tresses or whatever it is do we know in all the neighboring [18:21] cities what kind of adus are get have been built subsequent to you know [18:27] ordinances being passed what are the I don't have a lot of details on like you know the exact types [18:36] um it varies because they you know they have different requirements I interestingly when I talk to Crystal [18:43] like the majority of theirs were internal um I think those are the cheapest but we've heard that those can [18:49] be difficult with kind of bringing the the walls up to that 1 hour fire [18:54] rating um so I was surprised to hear that um [19:00] but yeah I think it just kind of varies depending on each City and their requirements like St Louis Park they [19:06] said they didn't they haven't had any built yet cuz um most of the interest was for doing them above a garage but [19:11] they don't allow them their height is too restrictive um Richfield only allows [19:17] detached if it is attached to a detach garage can can you go to Christopher [19:24] stm's website he has a bunch of [19:49] was there something in particular um well the one on the left looks like a [19:56] twostory and that one is the one that I don't know under the projects if they had if he had a lot [20:05] of and you're that one section starts to show [20:11] it and I could do a quick graphic about what the 18t means for internal head [20:18] height because I don't think it has to be the whole 24 to get and this I can do [20:23] a version of that with the 18t Max and and show you what that or show send [20:30] around to everybody what that means for that half story in in a pitched roof [20:40] aame yeah it'd be a pitched roof it'd be a double pitched roof in a frame they come down to [20:46] the like this where you add the Dormers or make it more of a flat roof yeah [20:52] you're saying this is L Charming we're incentivizing this is what you're saying we're incentivizing this and we're and [20:58] we're not yeah and that comes back to just how we measure height yeah because a lot of [21:06] other cities measure it to the midp point of a gable roof or the highest point of a flat roof and we just go to [21:12] the highest point for ball yeah you're saying this can come back to bite [21:17] [Music] Us by measuring it to the [21:23] top I um [21:28] well I mean I don't necessarily know if it would or not but I think it just it disallows some things that would be [21:34] Charming that I would if it was if it was right across the property line from [21:39] my house I would be happy to have it there I'd rather have that than the flat [21:46] roof was the question we want to allow two stories and 25 ft at the 5 foot [21:51] setback line I I think that's kind of what we're I don't think we want to do two stories at the 5 foot set back line [21:59] but I think we want to be able to allow 20 ft Height work going from 18 to 20 I [22:06] could check it but I think that would allow just a little bit of room you know cuz you got the five feet [22:13] it would just allow you enough room let me check it real quick I've got a cross-section already started on the one [22:20] project I'd be able to throw some numbers on it and maybe you guys don't want to keep [22:26] stringing this along well we want to we want to get it right right yeah it's [22:32] just kind of on that note so Crystal Minneapolis Richfield and St Paul are [22:39] all the ones that allow you to do the two stories at 5T or less in the case of [22:44] St Paul they allow three feet but St Louis Park does [22:52] not manka does not [23:03] a TW story Adu the first story would be like a [23:10] kitchen maybe a a dining area so you yeah you could [23:16] have you know your open space right the minimum is 12T room [23:23] floor space um for a living area in in most I [23:30] think in the in the code and then like a little kitchenet and a little hallway and a bathroom and a storage on the main [23:37] floor and so if you had like a 200 square foot first floor and maybe it's like it could be half the square footage [23:44] of the first floor right if you had 200 or 300 you could do 100 or 150 on the second floor [23:52] right to incentify of those more Charming ruls you don't have as much [23:59] like you can't live over the whole area but you can live under the Sweet Spot in the peak of the [24:06] roof and maybe if we just limit the square footage then we can [24:12] get um some of those little pitch roof ones which I think would be [24:19] Charming I come about this from a different angle so if we look at the alley situation right [24:25] so the alleys you say what 14 ft WI y so if the Alle is 14t wide but you're [24:33] splitting that let's pretend the property went all the way to the middle of the alley so so you're getting s feet [24:40] there and you're getting 5 feet from it because we allow two stories 5 feet from [24:46] the property line if there's an alley that's what's proposed yeah right so so [24:51] you take that 5T and seven which is half of the distance across the alley now you've got 12T so is there any reason we [24:58] wouldn't allow twostory 12 feet I I think that should be our new minimum [25:04] anyway or maximum cuz then 12T would be the same thing B it's fair at least kind of [25:12] cutting that 25 foot in yeah that's a start and it and it does have to be a [25:20] smaller um structure than the main structure so it wouldn't be as big as the main structure so pushing it back a [25:27] little farther has to be smaller the Adu is maximum th000 square [25:35] fet and you're keeping it 25 ft so so it doesn't have to be [25:41] but typically yeah typically it's going to be a little bit smaller and at 12 ft [25:47] you know so that's an additional s for an additional 7 ft of height so it's a like one to one one to [25:53] one yeah and and so in a property like mine which is 140 ft deep versus the 200 [26:01] it wouldn't feel like it's right in the middle of your backyard you know even pushing it back [26:15] that okay with that 12T so then it would be 18 ft closer to [26:23] the proper line and 25 ft at 12 12T [26:30] yeah I mean that's only CU you have to put you have to put at least three foot away from the prior [26:36] line I always have to look this up every it's been it's been 30 seconds and I forgot see if I sound correctly um 12 ft [26:44] from the property line 25 ft [Music] High [26:50] um 5T from their property line 18 ft High yeah 5 foot from yeah [26:58] yeah cut us to 12 yeah yeah in that scenario it wouldn't [27:04] feel like it's crowding the main house so much like if you move that whole Blue [27:09] Dot up half it wouldn't feel like it's [27:19] crowding you have two separate yards and in your [27:25] lot and I think part of your rationality too is just that that 25 ft is like a [27:32] dead space too right and it's kind of crowding in the yard if you could push it back as far as you can IDE [27:39] right cuz people tend to forget I mean I've got a blue tar behind my garage [27:45] every single year and I'm sure some of my neighbors are like what put a wall of pushes well out of [27:53] mind it just happens that's very Minnesota having a can were [28:02] kayaking what do you guys you feel about that everybody I mean I I do recall that that [28:11] 25 does seem to sort of create think that space kind of a yeah [28:17] unusable space where it' be best to I think between the primary and the that's [28:23] the most usable part of the year so yeah and again this is if you want to build two stories right all right so we're [28:30] going to keep it simple one story of two stories one story 18 and then two stories at 12 25 oh yes [28:38] 18 18 two 18 5T yes 25 by 12 ft yes yes [28:51] okay okay so we have preced so in the one Cas weow other out buildings that [28:57] are that tall to be that close yeah and in the other case it's the same it's virtually the [29:03] same thing as having an alley going between houses yeah I think that's a good so yeah so we have you know it's [29:09] not just we invented this out of thin ER we have a you know no yeah that's so [29:15] what do you guys think are you you're what do you guys think oh no I just I always look at it [29:23] in terms of enforcement and looking at plans and we'll get a lot of [29:28] plans in for accessory structures that are not falling units you know that they [29:34] want to have an extra like a studio or an office or [29:39] whatever that would be lumped into the accessory structure piece and they couldn't get the 24t height but they'll [29:47] want it they'll you know it'll be a situation where we'll probably get a lot [29:52] of ads will not be adus necessarily they won't be used for that but um because [29:58] people want more space and they're able to accomplish that with that [30:03] height um I don't know a problem not you but [30:08] they're going to put an office up there an office or Studio or a pool house or [30:14] you know a recreation room I mean that was part of the issue with the country club District you see a lot of the [30:20] taller um detached garages that are right in the corner and they're literally two stories almost a lot of [30:27] them um there was a lot of push back on those because people had run out of room [30:33] they couldn't cover their Lots with any more building so they po the top on the detached garages but a lot of the [30:40] neighbors next to them didn't really care for that because it's literally you know 3 feet or 5 feet away from the lot [30:47] line and you have this large structure and so how we measure height changed and [30:53] that brought down uh the Heights and so and but we're [30:59] that we're just talking Country Club for that well [31:04] no it's very visible in country CL yeah um but the ordinance Plies everywhere um [31:12] so we can see the same you know people maxed out on their lot coverage how can [31:17] they get more space yeah you know they they pop the top of a garage yeah and so [31:22] we did get a lot of push back and that's why some of the changes were made to the ordinance so [31:29] what I'm seeing is that we will get applications for permit applications for [31:34] the pool command or whatever and they're going to want to get up to that 24 ft whatever the maximum would be but it's [31:42] not a bu that's why I have to say no it's 18 um maybe it's not a problem maybe [31:49] that's what we want to see then maybe they have to do a somehow turn this it's not going to be occupied as a dwelling [31:55] unit necessarily but yeah we have no because people can build these adus Y and decide they're not [32:03] going to rent them out yep there's you lose control after the permitting yeah [32:11] yeah and I think I'm just saying we're going to see a lot more accessory structures that are [32:18] taller regardless of what they're used for and previously years ago there was [32:25] push back with that and but those were all like right on the property line [32:31] generally speaking they were closer to the property yeah yeah but if you can do [32:37] a twostory at 145 maybe or [32:42] twostory um on [32:50] an but at least at least at 12 feet I mean you could put a row of decent sized [32:56] bushes back there y it's just always difficult to enforce something when you [33:02] have two different height requirements for something that's accessory to the to [33:07] the principal structure but also because access accessory dwelling units I mean [33:13] have to have certain things in [33:19] them and once again I mean we can't control if someone rinse it out or not [33:25] but we're kind of not worrying about that no but all I'm saying is and that's fine we'll just [33:31] see most of the accessory yes whatever it is they're all going to be 24 ft tall [33:38] perits unless they're trying to get closer you know five and five or five [33:43] and if it's going to be 5 and 14 it will be 24 so so they have to be that we're [33:51] going to because we're saying if they're 24 ft tall 20 or 25 ft tall they have [33:58] they have to be it's okay I'm trying to keep it straight in my own head they have to be 25 it has to be set back 25 [34:06] ft from the property line 12 12T 12 12T 12T oh we just changed it to 12T so um [34:14] so then so someone will want an accessory building everything it's an incentive to [34:20] put an accessory yeah maybe that's what we [34:26] yeah so let me explore this a little bit more um I think I love how you're giving [34:32] us yeah how the applicants would actually apply for it I think this is good um so if we allow this we're saying [34:41] that some folks would would not apply for an U and they might use the bottom level [34:49] for storage or top level for storage on the other side for living but you you would think that [34:56] instead of just building it as one store see a lot of two stories come through [35:01] tell me why you think that actually well previous to the change and how height is [35:06] measured for accessory structures um there's a lot of situations where people have maxed out [35:12] on their building coverage so they can't add to the footprint so then they'll pop [35:18] the top and use that space for whatever they'd like to use it for if it's an [35:24] accessory structure it's not a ding unit so they would not be able to use the 25 [35:29] ft in height so what I'm saying is this change in ordinance will kind of make [35:35] that 18 ft for accessory dwelling units that it's all of those accessory [35:44] structures will be 25 ft and they'll be classified as a dwelling unit we just [35:50] won't see unless somebody really wants one but we there's always this pressure to everybody wants them higher um and [35:59] maybe that's not a problem is is there a there's a property coverage limit on [36:06] Accessory not accessory dwelling but accessory buildings but not a square but [36:11] not a square footage there's no like just a combined of a th squet so if you have a shed and a cabana and okay well [36:18] so it this it's all lump together it's the same okay so okay so so if people [36:24] have maxed out their property and they want to build an accessory Drilling unit they can only have a 250 sare foot [36:30] footprint are do we still have that still in there [36:35] okay so CHR what's the what was the push back that you were getting what was what [36:40] were the issues uh the neighbors around taller garages detach garages they felt [36:47] they were too tall and they were usually you know at the minimum setback so and they and they would [36:54] build like in the case of the one that was right next to my client who did do the 18t you [37:02] know just a storage over a garage the one next to it is probably at 27 ft and [37:07] it was a good size two-car garage so it was probably 600 and they and they have [37:13] like one and a half stories it was just a massive it feels like it's twice the build in [37:18] my I'm just saying that um it's just how things are going to [37:25] probably go but that's okay maybe we want all these accessory structures to [37:30] be accessory dwelling units but they don't necessarily and you're right we can't control yeah um what they use the [37:37] space for but um and you have a deeper set setback for the taller structure so [37:45] it probably W work and I and I think just because I [37:50] mean I think it would make me nervous except for the fact that we still have [37:55] our lot coverage requirements you know someone if someone's maxed out they [38:01] can't build a th000 square foot accessory drilling unit they can only [38:06] build 250 square foot so it's going to be more dimentive it's going to be like a you know because right now you can [38:12] build a shed of 225 square ft without a permit it still counts as coverage [38:18] though it still counts as coverage know about it if you don't need a [38:25] permit but yeah yeah so I mean I think at 250 ft it's [38:34] going to feel pretty dimentive it's going to be half the size of a standard not a large garage but a [38:43] standard I mean outside of Country Club and morning side well actually just generally east of 100 are houses [39:00] there's some people who still like to take tubs rather than showers right I mean it is people I mean people are [39:06] people I like my detached garage because I think as soon as the garage is part of [39:12] the house it just inflates the size of the house unnecessarily I agree but but [39:17] it seems like you know every chair down in our neighborhood has an attached garage I can't think of any you know of [39:23] anyone that doesn't have um I know some people who are model and keep their detached garage but I [39:29] know like right in my area because of the flooding you can't really build it in [39:35] the backyard anymore so you have to build it so I mean I think there's a lot of different [39:41] reasons all right no it's good to well because it [39:48] doesn't it doesn't sink in until the third or fourth conversation I mean you look at it from a very different [39:53] perspective you have so much more experience dealing with resident you know you have the full gamut that we [39:59] well I guess it's not a problem because they're going no matter what they use it for yeah it's still going to be [40:05] a what we're looking for yeah and bringing them forward so even [40:12] if someone does it they sell the house somebody else can then use it right because that the goal [40:19] is I just read the Pew Research Center our uh population is supposed to Peak in [40:26] 100 years and after that drop again so we're only supposed to add another two billion people to the planet and then [40:33] it's supposed to go back down so in 100 years it's going to and then I think all our property [40:40] values are going to PL it unless you're to the center can [40:46] walk to some place CU there'll be no that's the Long [40:53] View I think with this one um I love the perspective of how would [40:59] residents or folks gain the system right how would they try to take advantage of this new ordinance D they're just human [41:07] yeah you always have to think about that um I think this one would be okay just [41:12] because if you were going to pop on top of your garage anyway right instead you [41:18] would do this now we didn't talk about non-conforming [41:24] structures just these are all conforming structures all 5T but there are some sheds that are [41:30] 1T from the property line and I think these non-conforming structures we don't [41:37] want to incentivize building more on a non-conforming [41:42] structure we're not talking about you or anything we talking yes yes so we do not want you to build an Adu on a [41:49] non-conforming structure um even like a one story and a non-conforming structure I think that's [41:55] how we think about it too let's just talk but for a little while and see if that makes sense that would be a variance or [42:04] well I think yeah there was some discussion last time about wanting to accommodate them by right above detach [42:12] garages and and so then there's two questions like if we're talking about a a detach garage that is non-conforming [42:18] and doesn't meet the setback we talked about how we have a section in the code that um allows expansions to [42:25] non-conforming structures um um but it does specifically say that that addition has to be on the same level as the [42:32] non-conformity so this would be a change from that like so like if you have a a one [42:39] story house like a rambler that doesn't meet the sidey setback we allow you to do an addition off the back but not do a [42:46] second story it um and I mean with with nonconformities generally we want them [42:53] to go away because we're saying this is something that's not appropriate so if probably doesn't make sense to allow [42:58] Somebody by right to make that worse but if we feel it is okay then we should [43:04] just change the setback to make it legal could someone apply for a how does [43:12] the variance I would the variance aspect play it like and you guys like make it [43:18] so I don't can't build one I don't get like seriously I'm not it I actually thought about this I'm like if I ever did it it would be because moved my mom [43:25] in or something like that but like she totally wouldn't respect my wife and I's boundaries and so I don't think I'm going to do it [43:31] any like she'd be wandering all over the place it would just be a disaster so so [43:36] don't worry about hurting my feelings but you yeah you can like you know L and morning said there's some shared [43:42] driveways that's why actually mine doesn't conform for the driveway is shared and so two garages actually are [43:48] just right next to each other on the line and you know I personally wouldn't care if they added something to theirs [43:53] they probably wouldn't care if I add something to mine but it's a weird situation that exists some plac in I don't really have a point of view [43:58] about whether we want to permit it or not but with someone like me you know who could just who would want to maybe [44:05] just add one one level on top of the garage would we need to would someone [44:10] like me need to get a variance so yeah that's what we're saying is if you have a so you have a garage that's like on the property line so it's a [44:16] non-conforming garage it's on the line um because this is saying you'd have to meet the principal [44:23] structure setbacks or now 12 ft from the rear so yeah you would need to get a variance the discussion at the last meeting it seemed like was going down [44:29] the road of how do we allow people to do those additions by right so that they don't need to get a variance and after [44:35] looking at that a bit closer we wouldn't recommend that yeah well what I don't really see a problem with requiring [44:41] people to meet the Varian criter I me you can imagine maybe a situation where there's just something unique about the property where it makes sense to have an [44:48] Adu it's in the spirit of whatever someone's but but it's just a weird property like mine and and you'd have to [44:56] you they have to make a showing that that it was justified so that the city doesn't get I mean why why should you be [45:02] able to build it by right when there's that much nonc comformity but if there's a path to build it if it maybe makes [45:09] sense I wouldn't have a problem with trying to I don't think other resence would either trying to get approval um [45:17] to vary from what's required but I I don't know what everybody else think I'm okay [45:23] com and that's like for a one story even just a verion of a of a shed to a living [45:30] space that would also need a variance yeah I I like I would need a variance to [45:38] change anything about it probably um just because it's non-conformance even if I want to rebuild it probably need to [45:46] to get a variance or something like that but so I don't see this as different than any other type of modification you [45:51] might want to make where there a not compony but think [45:57] that's helpful we'll switch to I think minimum size here but this this kind of [46:04] bugs me a little bit in back of my mind but uh a lot of detach [46:10] structures today uh you it's not liveable let's just say just like a garage it's a floating [46:17] slab and I think for it to be living space cre me if I'm wrong here it needs [46:22] to have Frost footings so if that's the case [46:28] they'll have to dig up the whole thing and rebuild in that spot okay and so it's not going to be as simple I'm just [46:34] going to throw the junk out and put someone in there you have to dig out the whole thing and basically [46:41] rebuild and you need pluming and you need Plumbing you need sewer you all those things Jimmy said [46:48] something well maybe what is staff's opinion for these um [46:56] these these new units that it would be most often um all new construction or CU then [47:06] otherwise the the and then like qu said is that if they're trying to rehab an [47:12] existing structure I mean that's where you we'd probably get into this not conforming um how often so require very [47:22] I mean they're almost always going to have to redo especially if they're getting their Foundation issues and all [47:27] that kind of stuff that once it's all removed in its new construction then you can basically say these are the [47:34] rules yeah I think right you just say you guys are trying to accommodate was how can we let them keep the existing [47:41] structure and just add on top of it yeah but from talking to our building department it doesn't sound like that's [47:47] really going to be possible so like that probably won't be very common that won't be something we' run into so not wanting to sort of Burden staff [47:56] with time bombs down the road I mean just issues um the expectation is that these [48:03] may be so rare that you know if it's two or three or four or five a year that's [48:08] not I would I wouldn't think that's a terrible burden yeah I mean we probably [48:14] get variance requests but I I just don't see us getting a lot of variance requests because someone wants to just [48:21] add a second to an existing garage because I just don't think that's a scenario where it's going to work very [48:31] frequently um again last Point again on before size [48:36] but I think parking right you can talk about parking on every home need to have [48:42] at least one covered parking spot yeah we discussed that a little bit at the end of the last meeting and it sounded like there was consensus on just not [48:49] having a requirement for additional parking for additional parking right yeah cuz we still have our off Street in [48:55] our parking for correct right yeah so people have can't yeah for more than six hours year [49:02] round okay yep just wanted to okay record I guess right which is nice [49:09] because if you decide you want to rent to some some young person and you say you [49:16] know You' got room for a bike here you know and they can get around [49:22] town um they Liv along the Eline they go to the you yeah so I think it allows for [49:30] some of those things you want you want really we want these things close [49:36] to Transit corridors or close to areas where people don't have to rely on cars [49:41] ultimately there'll probably be more money to put them in some other areas but yeah I'm okay [49:49] without yeah I think that's good okay all right um I guess the last Point [49:56] might be minimum size yeah you I do I guess I guess I am [50:04] worried that we'll get some really kind of minimal dwelling units if we don't have [50:12] a minimum size um you know I was kind of sketching out okay there's a there's well in my [50:20] head mentally um you know bathroom uh a little kitchenet living space bedroom [50:27] you know if someone doesn't have a separate bedroom or whatever it is or decides to have it all LOF you know that [50:32] we might get these 150 sare foot which California allows 150 foot minimum we [50:38] might get these really minimal Footprints and people putting two people in there um so I'm kind of [50:49] thinking that if someone really wants to put in 150 square foot ring for two [50:55] people they have to come to us and ask for it I'd rather have them ask for variance for it than just do [51:01] it all right is that making sense or you know because because all of the [51:07] other you know they um Minneapolis is 250 we that is 300 everybody has a [51:14] little over 200 I think yeah I can try to find it um where I looked at all the other cities and it was like half of [51:20] them had a minimum but half didn't so not every city had a minimum Adu size [51:27] okay what a lot of them do so I can try to find that what do you thinking the minimum should [51:34] be well I would say 200 I would keep it simple once again that if we're allowing [51:39] people who who have maxed out their lot size to put a 250t Adu that that is also [51:47] a minimum I would just keep it simple the number [51:53] simple and I think and I think if you if you said that there was a separate sleeping area from a living area code [52:01] asked for the living area to be 120 sare ft and if you have like kitchen counter [52:07] beyond that living space of 120 square F feet you're like at 146 ft and if you have like 40 ft for [52:15] it's 186 sare ft and if you have you know a minimal bedroom [52:21] you're the smallest I could come up with in my head was like 225 square ft [52:28] when I was running the numbers for the different spaces so that's why I think cities everywhere there's [52:35] studio apartments that are basically one room one room and a bathroom so I mean I [52:42] don't know that you need to have all these separations um I think if you're thinking in terms of you know what small [52:49] living spaces look like um because I think some of those those Studios [52:56] like there's shared amenities in the building if you if there's a apartment [53:02] complex that has a lot of really minuscule spaces where someone is just in a in a room with a kitchen at that [53:11] there's laundry F facilities somewhere on the property or you know meeting [53:16] spaces somewhere or a place to hang out somewhere else on the property but if this is if this is the person's only [53:23] dwelling space um [53:33] um I guess I worry about having yeah all sorts of 100 foot spaces where two [53:39] people have to live 24 hours a day I I just can't imagine that that's [53:45] going to be an issue that's going to come up very often I mean I think people are going to go to a lot of trouble to [53:52] build an Adu that's only 150 square ft um you know it's going to be a very [53:58] expensive proposition for a pretty small area unless you're limited by kind of your overall space constraints and [54:04] things like that um I'm from New York City you know [54:10] studio apartments that are very small you know a lot of people live in [54:15] them for a very long time you know and they and um you know so I don't I don't I don't [54:22] see the necessity for a minimum and is like a a concern about [54:29] quality and like taking advantage of something um is how you're looking at it [54:37] yeah so you're trying to establish a minimum like a minimum standard a minimum quality to the City versus [54:43] putting that burden on the homeowner to decide that for [54:50] themselves I did find the other City examples [54:56] the cities that have don't have a minimum are Crystal Hopkins minona and St [55:02] Paul Bloomington Gold Valley miniapolis Richfield St Louis Park [55:13] du we're allowing a maximum of two adus per property [55:19] no just one just one Adu so [55:32] and you're talking about inside outside right you're talking about any kind of Adu I'm talking about detached separate [55:39] you're only talking about detached okay separate I see is it worth if you're going to spend [55:46] that much money to build a building is it worth it to build such a [55:51] tiny building that's my point yeah and well you know someone someone picks up a [55:58] tiny home don't allow storage containers do that's what and the tiny homes are [56:06] what about 250 aren't they usually no I think tiny homes can be smaller I guess they're [56:13] getting more into manufactured housing it's true yeah I think we talked last time too that I guess yeah there's no [56:21] nothing in the zoning ordinance that would stop someone from doing that as the primary dwelling [56:28] now that we don't have the basement requirement yeah yeah I don't know I [56:34] mean I think it's just a maybe it's an irrational fear but it's just [56:42] a and I think if someone comes to us and say listen we're going to build this really high quality 100 and this is the [56:48] reason why we're doing it and there's a compelling reason if they asked for a variance I'd say yes but I think what I [56:55] what I fear here is you know the landlords that aren't [57:01] going to be so do like the average child's [57:07] bedroom DIN and I'm not saying I'm just I'm telling you guys my fear and you guys [57:13] can totally talk me out of it or not I'm just I mean if if it got taken over by [57:19] corporate interests you know and we allowed a lot of corporate ownership of [57:24] homes whatever I can definitely see that being and we allowed more than one Adu I could definitely see that being a problem well because so every Adu needs [57:31] a permit no matter what so they have to go through the building way yes um and [57:37] what would the what would be required if someone came to you and said I'm building an [57:44] Adu um it needs a bathroom and the bathroom has to [57:51] meet certain clearance right yeah there are some minimum standards by the building cone [57:58] like you mentioned for bedrooms and bathrooms and spacing between so do we say in there that there has to be a [58:04] separate bedroom space from the living space or can the bedroom space be in the um we just say it has to meet the [58:11] current Minnesota residential code so whatever is required for a dwelling unit it has to comply with [58:18] that we're not trying to differentiate from other types of dwelling units here [58:23] with with respect to that so that might be okay if you have to [58:29] meet those requirements we know it's going to be a safe decent size St out space then you [58:36] probably don't need a minimum size well I think so from my [58:42] recollection then you need to have a space that's 120 square ft clear floor [58:49] space and then the kitchen c c counter if you have refrigerator stove [58:55] sink you need about another 12 square ft so 132 Square ft and another like 40 square [59:02] so it would be 172 Square ft and maybe a little H so it gets close to 200 square [59:07] F feet and what's wrong with it the one [59:13] built 172t unit I was reading an article these [59:19] people in Tokyo Live in 95t micro apartments and they love them they thrill they couldn't be happier with it [59:26] these young kids live in these tiny I'm not saying that's culturally what people they also live they also live in cities [59:32] where you can walk out the door and there's a lot that's a good point yeah around you we're talking about [59:39] backyards just I I'm trying to make it real in my head like if someone builds 12072 I don't these numbers it's like I [59:46] don't know what it is I can't imagine it but something 200 sare ft well and I'm [59:53] not yeah and that's what I never I mean I always push back when and when everybody tries to do the minimal thing [1:00:00] so I don't know so I don't know exactly what the minimal standards are and I'm the only one bringing them [1:00:08] up well we have I mean I think back to I go so um their [1:00:16] illegal accessory units are everywhere it's like you know they just people just [1:00:22] don't even care so if we have a minimum of 250 does that incentivize people to [1:00:28] build the smaller ones illegally well how could they get [1:00:35] approval to do that no they I mean in other words they space in house to rent [1:00:41] out okay yeah that was a motherinlaw apartment or whatever because they can't meet the because they can't meet the [1:00:47] minimum yeah if they don't want to if they don't want to meet them whatever I and maybe that's just as ludicrous as as [1:00:54] people building a whole bunch of 150 squ I don't know but [1:01:00] uh I just don't think they'll happen in a din where you know every the properties are so large and your garage [1:01:07] is bigger than that and again unless corporate interests get involved where they'll do anything to make a buck I [1:01:13] think the average A din in would be a slum Lord somewhere else but not in [1:01:18] their own yard yeah not one is right in the face yeah maybe it's maybe it's irrational on [1:01:25] my part um if you have tose course but what do [1:01:30] you think the city council so just quick what do you think the city council will say if we propose a no [1:01:38] minimum I'm not sure what they would say they might look at what the other cities are doing [1:01:44] um and say well it's good for these guys maybe it's good for us too and for lose [1:01:50] Point any Dina you're really probably going to see something like that I don't think they're going to have an issue [1:01:55] with it plus the Practical answer is that by the time you [1:02:00] need all the building codes you're going to be pretty darn close to what most of the other cities that do have minimums [1:02:07] are right you're going to come pretty close to 200 just to meet the building code yeah and that's why they just go [1:02:13] ahead and say it rather than having to kind of fight the person at the counter [1:02:19] that comes and says listen I'm building this 100 square foot and then the official has to say [1:02:26] you know know it has to be right right but on the that it's 190 instead [1:02:33] it's feel like it's a big deal I think you got your bases covered in other in [1:02:38] other areas and that's where I think we just make it we just make it easy so [1:02:45] there's not any friction right in the building department they kind of yeah is [1:02:50] it as simple as if it building Cod then yeah I mean well I would say that we [1:02:56] want to be as permissive as possible okay and the city if the city council wants a minimum they could just say we [1:03:02] like everything you did but we want a minimum and we're not going to accept it till you do and we do it so it's no big deal but if we can get it through [1:03:09] without them approving or if they we can get them to approve it without that then [1:03:14] let's see I mean I just don't think many adus going be built anyway and if there's a whole bunch that are really [1:03:20] tiny and people start to complain then yeah we can revisit the issue or you guys can all be gone by that [1:03:26] but um you know I I just think it's better to be more permissive at this point unless there's something really [1:03:33] horrible and I just think probability of it being really like a whole bunch of them being built [1:03:40] before we have a chance to work on it or something I think it's pretty feels pretty slim to me okay I mean how many [1:03:46] how many adus do we think are going to be built the first year the first five years it depends on how the ordinance is [1:03:54] written well yeah I mean if it's permissive enough I think we could see okay but the concern is generally at [1:04:01] the other end of the spectrum right the concern the concern is that it's going to be too big or hitting up against you [1:04:08] know High requirements or or that you know it's going to be rented to too many people or too much turnover or you know [1:04:15] the concerns I think that the city council will raise as well as other citizens or that it's going to be the [1:04:21] other end of the spectrum toward more size more traffic more people more use [1:04:27] but then they don't get built every other City you know Minneapolis had done they've upzoned [1:04:33] everything and very little could built you know up to four plexes or whatever [1:04:38] because of the regulations around it make it so difficult and it's not because of because of the litigation [1:04:44] around now also yeah because the okay well I think I mean I think we've talked about it enough and I think I think the [1:04:51] consensus is no minimum it's just the building right I'm the only one [1:05:00] who's trays you put people into the drawers big drawers SE that sign [1:05:09] where they they sleep in the drawers okay you want density you got [1:05:19] density oh dear okay so I guess with the rest of the time um [1:05:26] kind of open we could discuss kind of any aspect of the ordinance that anybody has questions or wants to talk more [1:05:32] about we just like I know this was like over a couple days right couple sessions [1:05:38] we could just run down maybe the key things that we all agreed to just to check the boxes right and then say yep [1:05:45] and then we'll draft it up and look at it next so um I can't recall the order [1:05:51] but maybe add just you just can help us maybe do we want to just kind of run through it yeah yeah I think so cuz [1:06:00] yeah it's not very long um and I'll add to that once once [1:06:08] there's kind of a draft that you guys feel like you know relatively comfortable with and we're ready to [1:06:14] schedule for a public hearing then we'll have it vetted by our City attorney so that hasn't been done yet so I just want to add that so we have our definition we [1:06:22] discussed a little bit um early on and that was tweaked a little bit I think the thing dwelling versus [1:06:29] residence what we're debating what's a dwelling versus what's a residence or something like that you recall [1:06:37] [Music] um I think there was there was some [1:06:42] confusion over hang on one sec [1:07:05] [Music] I can't remember [1:07:11] what we could come back to we were confused on there that was a while ago [1:07:18] yeah all right let come back to that then parking cover that don't need [1:07:26] parking when you build one of these just make sure it doesn't park on the [1:07:31] street um the number one not more than one [1:07:40] 80 um I think we covered to just the entry you know you're going [1:07:47] to enter from I want to say the size of the back not the [1:07:53] front um max size ,000 ft minimum size [1:08:03] none and then we spending most of the time I think talking through height and setback I think we made some good [1:08:10] progress today I love L's um analogy of well let's just apply the same rule that [1:08:15] we apply to the the alleyway right and so that's going to be um you could build [1:08:22] up to 25 ft 12 ft from the r l uh red [1:08:27] yard lot line and you could build up to 18 ft if you are 5T from the rare yard blood line [1:08:35] non-conforming structures would require variance for any kind of build [1:08:45] um I think we did not want to regulate design we left that out right I think [1:08:50] that's a fair call right [1:08:56] and I think we did allow we could build the basement to convert the entire basement [1:09:03] to an Adu which could which might tip over 1,00 Square people we allow the basement um to be built as an Adu just [1:09:10] so that you don't have to build a bunch of walls and stuff in the [1:09:17] basement that's all that I I can think of um what we covered I don't know if [1:09:22] there's anything else out that jumps out at you [1:09:28] um I guess I don't know that we specifically discussed the exemption to building coverage for the first 250 ft [1:09:34] do you guys want to talk about [1:09:44] that let's just touch on this a little bit [1:09:49] um so if I understand this one correctly you could [1:09:56] build up to 250 square ft and that have an impact on Flor area coverage it would not count [1:10:05] towards yeah the question is do you want to exempt some amount of an adus square [1:10:10] footage from building coverage or impervious that'sa since a lot of [1:10:16] properties are likely to be at that we saw in looking at other cities some cities that or at least I should say one [1:10:23] that I know of um included that because they were finding that a lot of the single family properties were already up [1:10:30] to that limit and they realized they weren't going to get any if they didn't allow an exemption to lock coverage or [1:10:36] building coverage and how many what you think that a lot of [1:10:41] properties in d are already at the limit yeah we we have some analysis on [1:10:47] that um there was an intern in engineering that looked just at the morning Side [1:10:53] neighborhood and looked at like what percentage of properties that are already up to the max is it typically [1:11:00] homes that have been built you know new they just build it up to a [1:11:05] limit y oh yeah we know remember the guy that wanted to do the party on the on [1:11:10] the patio remember that yes sorry so you [1:11:15] know when you ask the question of well how many of these are we going to get stuff like this it kind of hinges on is this included or is it not how how much [1:11:23] how many square feet do you allow cuz like 200 50 ft is not a lot I think it was um city in Vermont that had that and [1:11:29] they allowed the first 650 ft to count to get like a reasonably sized [1:11:36] dwelling unit 250 is really not a lot no and what do we let people count now when [1:11:42] they want to put a deck out or something like that is it 150 or some amount we don't count towards 150 square feet the [1:11:48] first 150 is not included but anything in addition to that is included okay got it my question like to [1:11:58] 250 feet is everybody maxes out on the square footage for a new build and [1:12:05] they'd be eyeing that extra 250 to add on to their house for extra sare footage they would use [1:12:13] that as components of the separate so you could have you have so suspicious a larger family room that has [1:12:21] a kitchenet that you can have a fold out uh cou and there's a bathroom it's [1:12:26] already heated because you have you know heat throughout the house it's adding [1:12:33] space it could be it could have a door outside so it would have a separate [1:12:38] entrance and exit right it would have to be a separate dwelling unit but I guess that's what gets tricky is when you're [1:12:44] looking at that extra 250 if somebody wants to add it as a separate dring unit [1:12:52] if it's part of the house [1:12:57] at least it wouldn't be well they could do it on the first level and then [1:13:02] they off the top I mean we have a lot of people that have you know like a little space above [1:13:09] the garage that maybe an attach garage and you have a separate staircase from the kitchen up above the garage still [1:13:16] part of the principal structure you can go from the kitchen up there so it's [1:13:22] still considered part of the dwelling un principal drawing unit you could put a [1:13:29] door partition it off maybe have a locking door and then you know still [1:13:34] have the same stuff so it's a separate drawing unit but it's added space but you don't necessarily use it as that I [1:13:40] mean I know a lot of people will be looking at that to increase the square footage of their house so what if we [1:13:47] said the first 250 square fet of accessory dwelling unit built before the [1:13:52] adoption of this ordinance so people couldn't game it in the [1:14:03] future yeah it would be the ground floor of a detach because you wouldn't count [1:14:08] it if it were a garage popt you don't count floors [1:14:17] cover I guess I'm just looking at that 250 for the principal dwelling unit [1:14:23] somebody's going to look at that one use it as coverage for their house for [1:14:29] whatever reason like we want to incentivize people who have existing situation but we don't [1:14:36] want to incentivize people to gain theem tear down rebu design that get an extra [1:14:43] 250 they'll go right to that that's why we we reduce the number of building [1:14:48] coverage um inclus or exclusions because it was so [1:14:56] complicated could take it out completely and then see how it goes right I mean [1:15:01] yeah because like Chris was saying we can't control how people are going to use it and I think it would be hard to [1:15:10] say yeah certain properties are allowed x amount of building coverage [1:15:15] but if you're doing a ter build then you get less I don't know that would be [1:15:22] tricky to do so I think it's either in or not at all I guess my opinion can't [1:15:28] we keep it in there for detached um so you would just say the [1:15:34] first 250 ft of a detached Adu [1:15:40] um I suppose that could mitigate some of that if it's a new home and they're [1:15:47] maxed out onious surface this would still count towards surface right so that's the other [1:15:54] question is I guess you want to have the same exemption from imperious [1:15:59] surface oh I don't think you put well I don't think you [1:16:09] could well just wouldn't count towards the 50% one that they'd still have to meet all their storm [1:16:15] water yeah it be pretty hard to that out as opposed to [1:16:25] walls window walls everything difficult to say entire build is okay the [1:16:34] rest maybe if so if that doesn't go in there they just need a variance if they want to right what's wrong with that [1:16:41] they at their coverage they'd have to get a variance to add a SE glowing unit [1:16:46] and so then you'd have to take up the the coverage is sh as a variant what's [1:16:52] what's wrong with that I mean someone and then you just just look at whether it's Justified I don't like giving like [1:16:58] these big loopholes to coverage that one's going to this would be a big one that's what I'm saying I [1:17:04] don't I don't like it it's like then and if someone decided to do a new [1:17:09] build and build literally up to the inch that they were permitted do I mean I [1:17:14] know that but then like do they get to have another house too maybe not like maybe you should have thought about [1:17:20] that or think about that in the future when you're going to tear like okay we're going to do a tear down we want an Abu so we're going to make our houses [1:17:26] like a little smaller or something like that so I'm I'm more comfortable making people ask for variance and justify the [1:17:33] the departure than creating this type of loop for the reasons you said yeah I [1:17:39] would agree yeah well I guess my only concern again is that we want them built [1:17:44] kind of along the e-line and that's where properties are kind of smallest [1:17:50] where people are kind of bumping up against his limits I don't mind giving up if even impervious surface even [1:17:56] though I'm generally against it for sing F the homeless but um if you're going to add density if you're going to add more [1:18:02] people living there yeah then it's I mean if you build an apartment building you have 100% per surface right yeah so [1:18:10] um but you know again we don't people can build them as a pool housee instead [1:18:15] of as a whatever so we run into that so yeah it's a sticky situation [1:18:22] um IDE yeah on a Transit line or something dense area it's like whatever but but who's really going to do this is [1:18:29] it going to be those people or is it going to be well the thing is if they if it requires a variance then their neighbors are going to push to not allow [1:18:35] them to have it yes is the problem and article after article is like why aren't [1:18:41] they taking off it's because there's too many what's the answer [1:18:47] limits and is this the is this you guys know is this type of yeah I mean are [1:18:54] lots of regulations that say take effect you know or only applies after the [1:19:00] adoption of this ordinance right or before the adoption of this or sure I've seen that [1:19:06] before because we want to allow older buildings on smaller Lots yeah just [1:19:12] little exception yeah but we don't want to incentivize as Chris says we don't want to incentivize new owners with a [1:19:20] lot of money to just overbuild them yes yeah so how do you I mean how are you accomplish that that like I'm probably [1:19:25] in favor of that yeah the trick is is we have one zoning District so we [1:19:30] have to treat everyone the same that's that's the trouble and it's not about enforcing it from a date it's about [1:19:37] whether you're saying whether someone has an existing house versus a new house whe the house is approved or built okay [1:19:44] well an existing if you if the ordinance changes which turns it into well or it's not conforming right now it can remain [1:19:51] existing oning so it's not going to affect a situation where it's existing [1:19:58] like say for example you have it's over 25% have a ler [1:20:04] level large it's basically number unit that's [1:20:10] not going to I don't think that language is going to affect an [1:20:16] existing situation is that what you mean like if it's already existing as [1:20:22] a well you know put the building's already over and they want to convert a [1:20:27] portion of it that's not going to yeah I'm just saying literally put you know that exception only applies for [1:20:35] houses that were approved or built before the adoption of this ordinance so they can't gain the system in the future [1:20:42] but we're allowing current houses that weren't designed to gain the [1:20:47] system I think we still have a lot of people gaming the system they might start out to have a [1:20:54] wall there on the inside that separates that 250t Edition but that becomes a [1:21:00] door pretty easily on the [1:21:06] inside you guys are on the front lines you know what you know what H what actually happens out there what [1:21:12] theoretically happens yes yeah I me that's a nice to have I mean if if we can't get it [1:21:20] it's yeah I think if we take it out it just forces folks to build up B just convert the space that they already [1:21:32] have and to uh you know the ear point with if they really have a need they can [1:21:39] come and we can take a [1:21:45] look yeah good takeing out okay let's try with it out then [1:21:56] um I did forget to mention only R1 zone so not churches and so yeah you guys are [1:22:03] ready understand that churches are churches are mostly our one so how [1:22:11] do we say this would only be allowed on properties where the principal use is a [1:22:17] single family okay yeah [1:22:26] all right no R2 no we were [1:22:37] not I mean I think we discussed that at the first meeting oh yeah yeah yeah whether to [1:22:44] allow them on [1:22:50] D SLE family homes only we don't have a lot to do [1:22:55] we don't have a lot and most of them they don't they're small they don't conform to our minimum lot size as it [1:23:08] is [1:23:18] excellent very good no other concerns least for the people true so [1:23:24] what are next steps in terms of um taking it to city council and all that [1:23:30] um I think we would kind of get a Polish draft kind of vet it again internally [1:23:36] with all the Departments City attorney and then schedule for a public hearing [1:23:41] for planning commissioner yeah get it posted on the website start taking feedback [1:23:49] again yeah yeah perfect [1:23:54] the chair we sent out an email he just had some comments I haven't really had time to look at them I don't know [1:24:01] if yeah did you guys all see that it was sent out like a couple hours ago um from jar Bennett he had some [1:24:21] comments think I my phone [1:24:43] up I mean he had some thoughts about aesthetic standards mhm [1:24:56] so he copied um the Minneapolis Adu ordinance and [1:25:02] pasted in here and then added some some comments and I think he was saying that what he's highlighted here in yellow is [1:25:08] consistent with our ordinance and then things highlighted and R or maybe things for us to consider so we we just kind of [1:25:14] talked about you know having them only allowed on single family properties and not two Family [1:25:21] Properties um we actually we do have this in our ordinance that the Adu cannot be a its own tax parcel it can't [1:25:28] be subdivided and sold separately so that is in there um we don't have anything [1:25:35] specifically about saying decks shall not face an interior yard but we do have it in there that roof top decks are not [1:25:51] allowed and then so this is regarding the owner occupancy requirement which so [1:25:57] Minneapolis did take this out um but then with the litigation they were forced to go back to all of their rules [1:26:04] that were on the books prior to adopting the Minneapolis uh the 2040 comp plan so [1:26:10] this language is from before they revised their ad ordinance um they ended [1:26:15] up taking out the owner occupancy requirement but before they did they had a requirement that you wanted to build [1:26:23] an Adu you had to to record a deed restriction against the property and [1:26:28] file it with the [1:26:38] county and so I think for when we kind of looked at this [1:26:43] um how to address kind of the owner occupancy because I think there was a concern about you know corporations [1:26:49] buying them too um Bloomington just simply says that that [1:26:54] you know to rent any dwelling unit you need to have a rental license and for a single family property with an Adu only [1:27:01] one of the units is eligible to be rented so that is what we wrote in the draft to just say that you can only get [1:27:08] a rental license for one unit so that would that should deter [1:27:17] corporations from wanting to buy them or you know y companies out and you know the East Coast from buying homes and [1:27:23] trying to rent out both yeah um now with a rental license you can have a [1:27:28] qualifying relative live there so it wouldn't necessarily be the owner but um [1:27:35] I believe that's true with a homestead you can have a relative Homestead as well so it gets tricky when you try to [1:27:41] say that the owner of the property has to live there yeah there were kind of a number of [1:27:48] different logistical issues that we think could come up with that and so the easiest way to do just seem to be just [1:27:55] restrict the rental license to one unit and then any violation is treated just like if someone's renting out a house [1:28:01] with that without a rental license it's just we follow the same approach for enforcement that we would there I think [1:28:09] the Lesser concern was just upkeep as well having the owner occupancy and I [1:28:15] don't I guess we treat that if if you don't take care of your we treat as another violation if someone [1:28:21] complains right yeah so that's how we catch [1:28:31] that that's a good [1:28:42] call confir configuration [1:28:58] Tire internal located on one [1:29:11] level yeah we don't have anything saying it has to be on one [1:29:17] level I don't know I just feel like practically who's going to do that two level internally feels weird to [1:29:26] if someone decides to put a twostory attachment on their home [1:29:33] and I think that's allowed Raven well we also talked about like a twostory ad [1:29:38] that's not part of a detach garage yeah like do you want to allow this I think [1:29:45] it sounded like yes [1:29:51] it and that's so that's where we you know you got the 12T and you can do that [1:29:57] as long as it's within the 25 ft so would all that patio that wooden [1:30:05] patio would that all be considered impervious impervious yeah even though it's open I [1:30:11] mean so the principal structure would have to have the same materials as the as that right you know what [1:30:21] no he's he's suggesting that here I don't I don't think we can legislate [1:30:28] taste cuz do we do anything with that now where are we yeah I mean we saw that [1:30:34] in a number of other city ordinances where they'll say yeah it has to match what does match mean now we're in a [1:30:40] position of having to yeah determine whether it matches and then what if the neighbor says that doesn't mat well what [1:30:47] yeah we don't want to be getting into arguments over that in Country Club can they determine it has to be matching [1:30:55] colors they have to go through the they have to go through the preservation [1:31:00] board a separate step um he did have something about yeah [1:31:09] so stairs leading to an attached accessory dwelling unit located above the ground floor of a principal [1:31:14] residential structure shall be enclosed or located entirely to the rear of the principal structure ours currently would [1:31:21] say they can be on the side so so he's suggesting we only allow [1:31:27] exterior stairs along the back you want stairs on the side that [1:31:32] would have to be enclosed um I don't know yeah what what [1:31:38] if it's a what's what if it's a 20,000 acre property in there like 100 ft back [1:31:45] from or like someone could have a deck on the side of their house now and have [1:31:50] stairs so I think when we drafted this we try to kind of be consistent with like what [1:31:55] can someone already do at their house and let's not let's try to not like add a bunch of requirements that don't apply [1:32:02] to existing properties yeah they need the set back again on [1:32:09] that accessory dwelling units can't face the primary street we have a lot of [1:32:15] those Ramblers where there's an entrance to the lower level that faces the street [1:32:23] and then the main entrance to the house is up some people might want to [1:32:28] um have that lower level as an Adu right so and again so this is like [1:32:36] what he's highlighted is minneapolis's code language so he was saying uh let's see where is that yeah we need to clean [1:32:43] this up our wording this is more clear and protective a home could have started with multiple agenes facing the [1:32:50] street so the way our draft reads I guess I interpret it as being more [1:32:58] restrictive than that because we're saying uh only one exterior entrance to [1:33:05] the principal structure including for an accessory dwelling unit shall be allowed on any [1:33:10] side facing a public Street whereas Minneapolis just says no additional entrances so this would be [1:33:18] limiting it to one so in that situation they need a variance to create that into [1:33:23] an Adu yeah they would so I guess that's okay I mean they should be able to get it if that's the only thing that they [1:33:29] don't comply with and their planwise makes sense M got a r Rambler was built with two two [1:33:37] doors yeah so I guess the question is if it's already there do you you want to make them go through the variance to do [1:33:44] that cuz like the way Minneapolis words it you just can't create additional [1:33:50] entrances well by saying you know what I mean that so then allow someone to convert what you're saying like that [1:33:57] example would be [Music] allow to get to the main level you go [1:34:04] upstairs but if the lower level is going to be a unit use you can't use that [1:34:13] as so we could take the Minneapolis [1:34:18] language we're trying to be more flexible and permissive maybe that's idea [1:34:25] but yeah I think this is actually a little bit more flexible it [1:34:32] is so think but you're still even in a remodel you're creating an accessory [1:34:38] dwelling unit so that language I think they would need a variant still well it [1:34:44] could it could be a door into the building you at your stair upstairs and then an additional door right there's [1:34:51] ways to configure that so it can work for that it can [1:35:01] work if the door is already there MH and they're remodeling it to create an Adu [1:35:07] you would say that requires a variance they're Crea creating accessory dwelling [1:35:12] unit and it's resulting in the fact that they're using a ass entrance the street [1:35:20] theet yeah so they would even though it's already [1:35:26] there so then it sounds like the creation of accessory to not [1:35:31] result in additional entrances but if there is an existing entrance it's not an additional entrance that's how I read [1:35:38] it existing entrance not an additional entr why would an existing if there's if [1:35:43] you have a house it's a split level and there is a and a door next to it and there's a [1:35:50] front entry there are two doors and if you turn the lower door as a door into the [1:35:56] accessory Dyan to me that's not the creation of a new door it's just reusing an existing door I'm guessing that's why [1:36:03] they use the word additional entrances yep yep I'm I'm in on the Minneapolis [1:36:09] version I'm in on the Minneapolis [1:36:14] version so it was helpful to read Jimmy's [1:36:21] email do you want to qualify that to make it clear to say rather just say [1:36:26] additional entrances entrances that didn't already exist or [1:36:31] something additional we already were arguing about it a door and then apply [1:36:38] for yeah I suppose I suppose that's an additional entrance well if you have a [1:36:45] house and you add a door before you apply for the ad perit [1:36:55] you just add a door you want anywhere sure nothing that says you [1:37:00] can't have two two front doors I guess yeah I mean is there a reason why we wouldn't want an additional Bing the [1:37:07] street I guess we're getting you're driving into like all this design stuff that needs to be really complicated well [1:37:14] we try to keep it simple with only a few those requirements but yeah it's intending to we have it in I have it in [1:37:21] here I don't have it in it's just trying to maintain the [1:37:27] appearance of a single so it doesn't look like a or [1:37:35] something yeah anything about like materials and consistency with the primary drawing that's going to look [1:37:41] less like a separate drawing unit than a single structure out there with a separate door and everything else that's [1:37:48] why it's got to be in what you're talking about get detached that's why it's got to be in to the rear of the [1:37:54] principal structure so he's also suggesting 21t [1:38:01] height we solve that stick with [Music] [1:38:09] 25 we had a good discussion on that a good [1:38:19] conclusion sounds like you guys are kind of yeah I'm not going to I'm not going to [1:38:32] legislate he was saying we want to keep 25 we we solved that yeah okay he was [1:38:40] attempting to we did [1:38:52] it and he's just highlighting what theirs is he's just highlighting things for us to discuss okay so an interior [1:39:00] side yard meaning you're not on a corner correct ours is ours would be five and [1:39:08] we we're using our existing Sony yes yeah [1:39:18] yeah anything L is not going so [1:39:29] yeah so okay this is one thing I've heard about Minneapolis or say yeah they had this 20t setback requirement 20 ft [1:39:35] between a detached Adu and the house and I heard that that was a big barrier that like there was a lot of properties where [1:39:41] they can't meet that and so that was one reason why not a lot were getting built I actually don't see a um step back like [1:39:50] this in most of the other cities ad ordinances there are some that do what's the rationale for that what do we even [1:39:56] care I don't know um there are some building code implications where it will [1:40:02] come into play where there'll be some minimum separation due to like fire rate things like that um but I don't think we [1:40:09] need to impose an additional we don't have that for existing accessory structures now so I don't know me we [1:40:16] have a single family homes that are 10 ft apart right [1:40:26] um and then yeah here too building code kind of already regulates the durability of exterior materials unless you want to [1:40:33] do it for aesthetic purposes but it sounds like we don't yeah uh 5% of the total are for [1:40:46] Windows well the built-in Department once again has ventilation requirements and [1:40:53] um erress [1:41:09] requirements okay we did good yeah [1:41:15] yeah I think I think you know again guys really good conversation um I'm looking [1:41:22] forward to to What the residents have to say now on their have feedback I'm [1:41:28] expecting a lot of feedback because a lot of passionate people about wanting to build adus and they want things to be [1:41:34] as flexible as possible um some residents want things to be a little bit constrain but I think you have more [1:41:40] folks wanting it so we'll see what comes back but um yeah just thanks for all the [1:41:45] really good conversation and feedback and Addison and fing team for just working through it and bouncing it [1:41:52] around and getting it to a good discussion and a good place right now so appreciate you guys uh working through [1:41:58] that you thank you and thank you guys for yeah one quick thing when this when [1:42:05] we're ready to present this to council assuming it gets through Planning Commission I think it's helpful if one [1:42:11] two or three or members of the commission are there because they'll want to know more how you all thought [1:42:17] thought about this as opposed to staff interpreting the way you've thought about it I think that was beneficial for [1:42:24] the parking ordinance I know it didn't go exactly on you were wanting it but it was helpful that you were there would we [1:42:30] do this as work session for the city council well we thought about that but [1:42:35] um we're thinking we're just going to present it we're going to just to do it to let him keep playing around with it [1:42:41] I'm happy to show up