[0:02] I had to go back for my phone it's one of those mornings so no James this morning yeah [0:09] well good morning everybody and we are recording Stephanie um record has started okay good all right um well good [0:17] morning everybody this is the normal time of the day when we'd have a in the day of the week where we'd have an hrea [0:23] meeting downstairs with uh kind of a full agenda but we've got this work session uh scheduled today uh February [0:31] 13 2025 and so the first thing I'll do is call the meeting to order and then we'll explain why we're doing it as a work [0:37] session instead of downstairs too I think either Stephanie or Bill could handle that topic uh so let's call the [0:42] meeting order and Stephanie you're going to take care of the Roll Call I am commissioner Risser here commissioner [0:48] Jackson here commissioner agnu here chair huin here and our colleague is in [0:57] Hawaii um all right so we've got uh one primary meeting topic this morning and um I'm going to let uh Stephanie take [1:04] the introduction but I think first of all either you or Bill maybe explain why we're doing this as a work session format instead of downstairs sure um [1:12] we're doing this as a work session to have more of a dialogue and conversation regarding it this will be the first of a [1:19] series of three work sessions um to talk about the direction of affordable [1:25] housing uh we're not today not asking for any approvals not asking for um [1:31] anything like that but more having a dialogue we have a team of Staff here to [1:37] talk about the various policies and plans that we have that guide staff on [1:43] um housing decisions and so we wanted to just open it up as um it's an open [1:50] discussion yeah okay right good youill any other supplemental talks um there last year there was a lot of [1:56] conversations and questions as we considered several items um funding of of various items and so we thought as we [2:04] started into the uh into the new year it would be helpful to just have some discussions um so that staff can have a [2:10] clear direction of what direction you want to move this the city uh toward so [2:15] this is the first of several that we'll have this year okay very good all right go ahead Stephanie let [2:21] you coordinate everything okay um so as was stated we want to walk you through [2:27] various uh policies and plans that have helped guide us um in the decisions we [2:33] made regarding affordable housing and that we presented to you and how we um go about creating projects or [2:40] communicating with developers and you know my preference would be that we go through the full slide deck first and [2:47] then Circle back as qu for questions and comments and conversation [2:53] um we have this was a collaborative effort there are multiple uh departments [3:00] and divisions that came together to have the conversation and to help prepare the slide deck and uh this background [3:07] information um and we have you know subject matter experts here at the table [3:14] we we get to the discussion part but four of us will be presenting um Marissa [3:19] will be presenting in lie of Andrew he was unable to make [3:25] it so what instigated this particular work session in the budget work plan for [3:30] 2025 one of the two items under livable communities pertains to affordable housing the other item is related the [3:38] comprehensive plan but that process won't really get um started until 2026 [3:43] so this is really the only one under livable cities um for [3:49] 2025 in order to advance affordable housing goals including increasing housing options and developing a [3:56] long-term strategy we wanted to provide a context for how affordable housing or other housing generally is Guided by [4:03] multiple City policies we will review the policies to ascertain you know your [4:08] commitment to them as they relate to affordable [4:14] housing so our goal for the first meeting is again to review the policies and see how um the what the commitment [4:22] level is or the thought processes of how these different policies and plans relate to affordable housing because [4:28] that has come up a lot in meetings that we've had with projects we presented in meeting two we want to talk about the [4:34] city demographics you know review all the Census Data Review Who's living in the city now and how and what the [4:42] housing situation is now in the city and how that connects or disconnects with the current [4:48] population and in the third meeting we want to really get some direction what [4:53] do you want us to focus on home ownership rental affordable attainable [5:00] a myriad of all of them no a preservation just get an idea of the direction and focus that we need to [5:08] take and now I will turn this over to Thomas yeah so I [5:15] um drew the Short Straw and get to represent the values Pinder team who is all here uh today as well um and we [5:23] often try to ground ourselves in our City's values and pillars um and our uh [5:30] day-to-day decision- making um and planning efforts and so um we wanted to [5:36] make sure that we um paused here to recognize that we do have these values [5:41] and pillars that um really closely relate to this topic of affordable housing in the [5:47] city um at the center of affordable housing and our overall goal of community well-being um you know some of [5:54] the things that come up are are safety um and we see neighborhood stability down there as well [6:00] um accessible housing options and accessibility a reduction of stress on our community and residents um an engag [6:07] and connected Community um connecting back to our pillars and then again that social connectedness so Thomas defin [6:15] accessible for me please so in here we have accessible housing options so this is and we'll talk about this a little [6:21] more coming up um but it's the um plethora of housing options available to [6:28] Residents in various stages of their lives um but that also includes accessibility as well so um housing that [6:35] that includes accessibility for those that need it okay thank you next [6:42] great um so we wanted to dive a little bit deeper into um each of the values [6:48] and how they connect to um affordable housing and particularly some of the [6:53] past work um of the city and how that's connected um so leaning into to um the [7:00] values will start at the top um so we have um Equity so access to affordable [7:07] housing throughout the many phases of Life minimizes disparities um it creates opportunities especially for those [7:13] disproportionately impacted including people of color seniors and people with disabilities uh this commitment to [7:20] equity is reflected in the human rights chapter of the comprehensive plan um and [7:25] the 2018 race and Equity implementation report um then we have engagement um affordable [7:32] housing Fosters a sense of belonging it builds stable inclusive communities where everyone feels valued and [7:37] connected uh this sense of community is nurtured through processes like our small area plan processes the work of [7:43] the housing task force and our overall Community engagement strategy Health as we know is linked to [7:50] housing uh safe affordable housing is actually a social determinant of Health Quality housing improves the well-being [7:56] of vulnerable populations and strengthens our entire community this connection is highlighted in the [8:01] health chapter of our comprehensive plan we have the value of sustainability [8:06] which recognizes the close relationship between affordable housing and climate action how we build and where webuild [8:13] impacts greenhouse gas emissions sustainable dense housing reduces these emissions while creating more affordable [8:19] options these options are often more walkable have lower utility cost and more resilient to climate change this is [8:26] a focus of the environment chapter of the comprehensive plan plan the climate action plan and the resilient [8:32] communities project density study and then lastly we have stewardship um also a city value um [8:39] which means responsible Resource Management investing in affordable housing creates sustainable long-term [8:44] solutions that promote Community stability we demonstrate the stewardship through the use of public subsidy [8:50] funding including cdbg mhfa lhcc and Tiff as well as the work [8:56] of the Adina housing Foundation these investments in sure that we are building a stronger more Equitable future for a [9:06] Dana so the framing or scaffolding of how we even began discussing and where [9:12] we should go with affordable housing has a long history um this slide starts in [9:17] 2015 but I when I um started my job I found newspaper articles and minutes for [9:23] meetings dating back to the 80s where affordable housing was a big topic and I [9:30] mean it's evidenced by the creation of the um Edina housing Foundation which was in the mid 80s and the creation of [9:36] Edinburgh and Centennial Lakes where people were really concerned about increasing housing prices in the city at [9:42] that time and so second mortgages were placed on the town homes and Condominiums at those two [9:48] developments at to make those more affordable and that was in the mid 80s [9:53] and then it just accumulated and okay that those projects were developed and the issue was still [9:59] growing and pervasive in the city so in more recent history um the council [10:06] approved affordable housing policy in 2015 and this policy really only [10:11] pertains to um multif Family Market rate developments but it has had an impact [10:18] and then there is the racial Equity implementation report in 2018 where it talks about housing talks [10:23] about access to housing who has access to housing um and how the city can work [10:30] towards um improving systems to make it more accessible then with the budget [10:36] pillars and values were created in 2018 as well that were just reviewed I was [10:41] hired or my position not me necessarily but my position was created in 2018 with [10:48] the idea that there needed to be a focused approach that we couldn't just have it happen as a tangental to other [10:55] efforts but it needed to be a focused effort um then of course comprehensive plan in 2020 Transportation plan would a [11:02] chapter within that the budget values were created in 2020 we had the housing strategy implementation report in 2020 [11:09] values viewfinder that were um reviewed in 2021 and the climate action plan and [11:15] all these created a scaffolding for direction and that we've been taking and affordable housing and one thing that's [11:22] important that you all know but just to reiterate that all of these efforts were [11:28] done in collaboration with multiple Edina residents that there was a lot of [11:35] public input in creating all of these um Committees of volunteers they happened [11:40] over many months many public meetings Consultants were hired um to pay for you [11:47] know that City paid for Consultants to help staff and these committees come to [11:53] the final plans so there's been a lot of Engagement all along the way that that [11:59] came up with all of these and I think that's just something that's really important to [12:06] reiterate um so one of our guiding documents that has a big impact on housing is obviously the comprehensive [12:12] plan um so every 10 years the Metropolitan Council comes out with new growth forecasts for employment uh [12:19] population and household growth for the region and then they assign an allocation to each Community that's the [12:25] growth that we have to plan for when we do our comprehensive plan um so we do that by identifying what as as a fully [12:32] built out Community what are the areas within Edina where we would allow that growth to happen and at what densities [12:38] um similarly the Met Council determines the regional need for affordable housing [12:44] units over the next 10 years and assigns an allocation to each Community um and we plan for that by guiding sufficient [12:51] land at certain minimum densities so for our last comprehensive plan um our [12:56] affordable housing allocation was the 1,800 four units to date we've delivered on about 177% of that goal say again [13:04] about 177% of those units have been delivered than you and that goal is by [13:11] 2030 um in some cases you know some of our land use challenges that we talk about are sometimes a result of our [13:19] policies and regulations not always totally being in sync um a couple months ago we presented the the zoning code [13:25] audit that we did in 2024 and that found that a lot of our zoning regulations are [13:31] not totally aligned with the goals and policies of our comprehensive plan um similarly we talk a lot about the need [13:37] for more missing middle and more Town Homes but our comprehensive plan isn't really set up to make that easy because [13:44] there isn't a lot of land in guided for medium density residential development that isn't already medium density so [13:50] anytime someone would want to build new town homes they have to go through a comprehensive plan amendment process [13:56] which as you know is a very uncertain and risky process for developers so that ends up being a barrier next slide um [14:03] and then just some other challenges that you all are aware of you know financing it's more expensive to borrow money today than it was just a few years ago [14:10] um I think you're all aware of the sewer capacity issues that we have and a good portion of the city that's reflected up [14:15] there in the area in Orange um where we really can't allow any higher density or growth in that area of the city um High [14:24] land cost I think if this is somewhat of like a good problem to have right Adina has been really successful in creating a place where there's really high demand [14:31] to be here but with that comes the challenge of it's more expensive for people to live here if we're not using [14:36] land efficiently um some of our own policies and requirements when there's development like the self-d design [14:42] guidelines can add some cost to development um there's neighborhood resistance to change sometimes um and [14:48] then also just the risk that you know a lot of our current affordable housing is just Noah naturally occurring affordable [14:54] housing and we're always at risk of losing that at at any time due to market conditions [15:02] so and when the comprehensive plan was working its way through the approval process um the city council created a [15:10] resident-based task force to focus specifically on housing and this task force there we had [15:17] 50 applicants um to provide a broad spectrum of opinions and seven were [15:23] selected and over the course of about 18 months they met 45 times in public meetings to developed strategies for [15:30] implementing the housing chapter and they to you know a lot of it was repetitive you know we want to protect [15:37] our single family neighborhoods but we need missing middle we need increased density along Transit corridors we need [15:42] to um we support the goal of um 1804 new affordable housing units by 2030 so it [15:49] reiterated a lot of those things um that were already in the comprehensive plan but um added a little bit more um detail [15:59] to that and then this is you know um as [16:04] mentioned we have the affordable housing policy that only does focus on multifam [16:09] market rate developments nonetheless um it has had a great impact [16:15] on the creation of affordable housing in the city and I think it has had [16:21] ancillary impacts even though it just focuses on market rate multif family since it's been passed there's [16:28] been a lot more more um movement in the creation of single family ownership that's affordable and permanently [16:34] affordable there's been three new 100% affordable um multifam so I think it it [16:41] had it helped change the environment to create more affordability [16:48] generally and then for transportation um so the transportation documents that we have don't directly speak to affordable [16:55] housing but they are fairly interl and there are several goals with in those Transportation documents that support [17:02] less homogeneous development more increased density and some of those goals include implementing fully [17:08] multimodal transportation system so that means multiple ways to get around the community outside of just car occupancy [17:14] reducing dependence on those single occupancy vehicles and Associated greenhouse gas emissions from those trips and then supporting alternative [17:20] transportation options like walking biking and Transit we do know as well that low to moderate income households [17:26] are more dependent on Transportation systems outside of car so they are taking public transit they're looking [17:32] for walking biking opportunities to move around the community that they live so creating those affordable housing [17:37] opportunities near where that Transportation modes exist is is a really great way to as we think about [17:44] developing an expanding the options and so the map on the right of the screen those darker areas show a parcel's [17:51] proximity to Transit service so the darker the parcel the closer it is to public transit service and so those [17:57] lighter colors are places that aren't shaded they're they're not close to Transit options today with the current [18:03] system that exists so as we look at the map today and as we think about expanding opportunities um increasing [18:09] housing opportunities in the darker areas puts further Demand on the system which we know from Metro Transit the [18:15] more demand increase frequency in services but then we also know for metr Transit as well that if a demand exists [18:21] in a community they're willing to expand Service uh the day has to be there before they're will to even expand [18:26] service to a community so I'm not going to read this whole [18:32] slide you know you have it um but just to give a summary of the policies and [18:38] plans that we do have the affordable housing policy we have the racial Equity implementation report we have the budget values and pillars the comprehensive [18:45] plan the transportation chapter within the comprehensive plan the housing strategy implementation report the [18:51] values viewfinder climate action plan and even the tree ordinance the tree ordinance does overlap with affordable [18:57] housing and that it's an great example of how um we had two objectives I mean [19:06] we multiple objectives but Within These there's two protecting the tree canopy [19:11] and supporting affordable housing So within the tree policy or the tree ordinance um there is for homes that are [19:19] valued at less than 500,000 there's a waver they they don't have to do as much um as a home greater [19:26] than 500,000 so is a way to show support of affordable housing and a compromise between those two [19:34] objectives and then I just you know some of the other things aside from multif family that have been created in um with [19:42] all these policies of scaffolding this guard rails um that have been supported [19:47] we have our ownership programs affordable single family preservation because it was stated we want to protect [19:54] our single family ownership and so but how do we make it so it's more obtainable [19:59] um come home to ad as you know but that's been suspended and the preservation I have affordable single [20:05] family preservation under this as well because it's not building new it's preserving what we have but creating those new opportunities the 4D and [20:13] energy efficient programs so again a collaboration between two um objectives [20:19] that the city has and our home rehab loans that goes along with that and then [20:25] we have uh the projects that have been created um in blue are the 100% affordable and in the green are the [20:32] market rate that have affordable within them so in future meetings um I just [20:38] wanted to introduce this idea is like really trying to pinpoint future [20:44] Direction where should we focus our energy our money our resources on what [20:50] kind of housing is it that um you all want staff to focus [20:55] on and then to summarize today's goal is are these exist existing policies and [21:02] plans still relevant as they pertain to affordable housing are modifications to [21:07] the policies that we have in place needed and what Vision beyond the budget work plan in the what is the vision [21:14] behind the budget work plan in the context of all these City policies and [21:21] plans so that's the end of the presentation wanted to set the [21:27] table um just at the very beginning it struck me that meeting number one and [21:33] meeting number two were really carefully linked and it seems to me that to maybe [21:39] effectively answer some of these questions that you've posited here that we need to know more you know you you [21:46] grounded Us in how we got to where we are but more about the demographics there's there's more in [21:53] meeting two that reflects on what we do relative to the questions you're asking us to answer in meeting one I think so [21:59] I'm wondering how we kind of navigate that yeah I I think I just give you an [22:05] example what what sticks in my mind you know we had this issue a couple years ago now with this people were concerned [22:12] about how many kids are coming into the school district that might affect uh how many kids are at Cornelia school for [22:18] example uh and we hired Hazel Reinhardt along with the state uh along with the school district the former state [22:25] demographer to look at that issue and she found it in the market rate apartment server my Ur Serv 0.1 kids per [22:31] apartment so it was a dominous sort of impact on the school system but in the [22:37] in the affordable housing units there were kids and then we found that where she said where the kids are is in single [22:43] family homes and the more expensive the home was the more kids there were and um but that what's what's stuck [22:52] in the back on my mind from that conversation was to these very points are we heading in the right direction [22:57] here if if the kids are in single family homes and those single family homes are ownership models should we be thinking [23:05] more about Noah for example and getting you know it's an extension of that [23:10] program we do with with Walt where we uh have the land trust model uh and um and [23:17] though we've got that underlying question of source of funds [23:24] um uh and how do we allocate them um it still seems to me that the demographic [23:31] part of the conversation is really critical to help guide us on what we should be doing next I don't know what [23:38] others thoughts are but yeah that was one of the notes I had um is looking at the demographics and what was not [23:45] included in this presentation I'd like to have is um the Edina Workforce so not [23:50] necessarily people who live here but people who work here I think that's a a really important element um and then uh [23:59] with the transit map that we had I'd like some if possible to show um impact [24:04] of the Eline coming um I it doesn't look like that that's part of this map um but [24:11] I think you know if we're going to have high-speed um bus transit bus Rapid Transit I'd like to um you know have [24:17] that reflected somehow or other that is on the red dash line okay but I don't [24:24] understand why it's not dark green all the way along there then that's like instantly right on it um and and yet [24:32] it's medium green so to the current land use um density allowable density no I [24:40] don't know why it's showing anyways I just it doesn't seem to jive with with the reality of the Eline so just a note [24:47] um so I have I have a lot of thoughts on this um I'm I'm really thank you for [24:52] putting this together this is a conversation I've wanted to had for quite a while so thank you um this 1800 [24:59] number I want to kind of mythbust this a little bit the algorithm that the Met [25:05] Council uses relies heavily on the differential between the cost of housing and the salaries in a city for the [25:11] workforce in a city we have the hospital we have shopping malls we have the school district are the three biggest [25:17] Employers in our city I I think that's right Bill and those are all really low [25:23] paying jobs the cost of a house median cost of a house is over $700,000 [25:29] that differential is huge therefore that 1800 number is very large that's 10 100% [25:36] affordable housing buildings with 180 units each there just density that is not feasible in our city so I really [25:43] want to mythbust that 1800 number I I I don't want that to be foundational to our decisions because I think it's it's [25:50] an artificial number that doesn't take into account the existing land use and [25:55] the C capacity of our city to respond to that otherwise we're going to have to have I just I don't I don't like [26:03] the path that that necessarily takes us down because it's just it's artificial [26:09] um the I see a disconnect between what um all these documents have shown are [26:16] the needs in the city and the options that have been available to us the three [26:21] things that I see we need affordable housing Force Workforce housing and that's 60% of Ami and higher um senior [26:28] affordable housing and housing for um adults with developmental [26:33] disabilities um those are what I've seen as the needs for our city um I think [26:40] there's a real disconnect between the funding sources available and meeting those needs and I think that was the [26:46] task force that James put together um shows sort of if we want to meet that we [26:52] have to have our own bank um Ian it's just and he was correct in that so [26:57] that's the puzzle that I don't know how to solve but um but I see that disconnect between what the needs of our [27:04] community are and the options that are available for affordable housing and so that's kind of my goal is to find ways [27:11] that we can reconcile those things um so those are my initial thoughts you um yeah can we go to the [27:19] summary of policies and plans slide um where we talk about budget values and pillars and um or the earlier [27:29] no that's it right there and so we okay budget values and pillars guide City [27:35] budgeting decisions affordable housing is the primary item within the budget goal for livable City yet there are no [27:42] General funds allocated to this effort and here I'm getting concerned [27:49] because the general fund is not the purview of this body we are the [27:55] HRA and we do not not have the authority to tap those funds in order to provide [28:04] Financial Resources for the development arm of the city and so I'm wondering why that's in [28:12] there um the all the policies and plans were uh approved by well most of them at [28:20] any rate were approved by the city council so the all of these pertain to the city council but as um [28:30] as the housing body the decision- making for the housing body that's why we're [28:36] bringing this work plan to this instead of city council plus it's easier to [28:42] schedule quite honestly at H level um so it's just there's a lot of cross between [28:48] what the city council does and when actual decisions are being made we go to the proper body we go to the city [28:54] council for decisions that need to be made by city council we go H for decisions that need to be made by the H [29:01] but as far as the policies are concerned they kind of Branch over both policies [29:06] right but financial resources are distinct and we Levy for the general fund as the council it is a discret [29:14] bucket of money and we Levy for the HRA it's a discret bucket of money we could [29:19] not have Council coming to the H saying hey can you help us build this park [29:25] building and we can't have the h going to the general fund asking for [29:32] money for affordable housing that is correct and um we're not asking for [29:37] money today but um and this whole reason for this work session is because in the budget pillar for 2024 [29:45] 2025 is the work plan it's Advanced progress to affordable housing goals including increasing housing options and [29:51] developing a long-term growth strategy and that is the budget pillar for the um [29:57] that was approved by Council but since this is the body that oversees decisions [30:02] regarding housing that's why we're bringing it here but I'm not asking for any money no one's asking I mean there [30:08] can be no money coming out of the general fund for the HRA I just want to make absolutely clear that that is [30:15] understood true yes that is understood but when we when we ask for uh projects [30:21] to get financing for affordable housing if we're asking for Tiff or something else we go to the city council right if [30:27] you're asking for okay or any money any money well any money controlled by the [30:34] city the general fund is there to fund services and to I mean we have a whole [30:40] mission statement for that and yes I mean the the council advances affordable [30:46] housing goals through different means you know but it's it's not the [30:52] development arm and it just looking at this presentation makes me kind of concerned cuz it it makes it seem like [31:00] the ask ultimately is going to get is to go to the general fund for financing and [31:05] I just want to make sure because the budget pillars also um you know it says [31:10] Advanced progress to affordable housing goals that that could mean so many different things including you know [31:17] creating healthy spaces and communities and and that could be a park and wreck building and so there's I want to say [31:24] that and then could we go to the slide where we have the multif family numbers and [31:33] the there okay I did go through and I know your report for compliance was on [31:41] the consent agenda back in December and I went through that and I compared it with the um compliance report the [31:49] previous year and I am getting very concerned because so many of these [31:54] places are not compliant with our affordable housing policy and it appears they've been [32:00] non-compliant for at least two years you know and we've got the Arya we've got the avador we've got the [32:07] laurian um which had been compliant but then this year is apparently not [32:14] compliant um the Millennium and so are you making like a policy [32:21] recommendation that we enforce compliance more strictly I I'm getting the sense that [32:26] it's it's really not something that I mean it's been two years so like what it's and and [32:36] I've talked to people and it's the answer I get is sort of well it's really hard to get market rate Apartments to be [32:43] compliant but I don't think we can count them as affordable housing if they're not functioning as affordable housing um [32:52] and so it's it's not just how do we get them compliant but I think it's also this this this discussion is where are [32:59] we headed and we just approved over 4.8 [33:05] million for 15 units in a development I believe it's the same developer that did [33:11] the lauran and we're not getting those affordable units so I you know if this [33:16] is a dialogue about where to put money and what to do I think we need to acknowledge that and slides like this [33:23] Stephanie answer that before we go on to because I that's a really good question and I'd like the answer before the next [33:29] question get raed thank you because I kind yeah so just stop and let answer that because I'm really interested in [33:34] her answer um when the affordable housing policy was first approved and [33:40] even prior to it was being approved um the enforcement was pretty soft um as [33:47] you can see AR is no longer on this map because they um they and avador and [33:55] Aurora were pretty much approved by resolution there was no Redevelopment agreement that required them or it was [34:01] in the sipa and once the SI once the project is built there's no teeth left [34:06] to be able to ongoing enforcement so it is the bully pulpit as we have heard [34:12] said that would keep them in line with other projects that have financing we [34:17] hold back we hold back their Tiff payment until they're in compliance and so that is the tool that we've been [34:24] using to make them comply if they receive Finance ing from us like Tiff where there's an semiannual payment we [34:32] don't pay it until all the paperwork's in order with um the ones set at the [34:39] report in December we're still working with them we did not say oh you're not compliant now okay St next year um like [34:47] Maison green there have been probably 50 emails since that December report trying [34:54] to get them up to compliance so it's an ongoing throughout the year process so [34:59] the December report is a snapshot in time um can I build on that because I [35:04] know that our policy recently changed with like the most recent approvals that we had and there are no projects that [35:12] exist under that new policy where we're having um the affordability and [35:17] perpetuity do you foresee any different levers that we'll be able to use for [35:24] those kinds of projects that are under this new kind of [35:29] governance um well we the policy we change is they must comply with our [35:34] compliance and they must cooperate with our compliance because we're a statutory [35:41] City we are also limited by what kind of hammer we can use when someone is not [35:48] compliant we we're talking about projects that do not have financing [35:53] putting a declaration on them nonetheless if they get a I mean that's that's where the Pud comes in too is [35:59] that the policy only kicks in if there's a PUD or funding and so for projects that get a [36:06] PUD but no funding we are now recording the Declaration saying that they have to maintain their affordability if they [36:13] don't we're still kind of like well you're you're not in compliance with [36:18] your declaration but whether or not we can find them or anything else we're limited [36:24] by law on what we can do so it's the projects that have Tiff where we have [36:30] really the strongest lover during the life of the Tiff agreement during the life of the Tiff but this is information [36:37] we need to get upfront when we're making decisions about where to put money like what are the chances that a unit will [36:46] actually function as an affordable unit and if if we don't have that basic [36:52] information we can't be making decisions that are fully informed is the avador [36:58] now up to compliance they have um completed their [37:03] paperwork um and so yeah I will report back um in April on a followup to the [37:10] December report in the report it says they had until December 16th to return some of [37:17] their paperwork in and I just haven't received our compliance officer has multiple cities and so I just said and [37:24] she wants to do it all at once so we've been waiting a lot for Mason green to get them they're the ones that had the [37:31] most issues to get them all together and then we'll do it in one aggregate report [37:37] rather than peace meal in the interest of just public transparency [37:42] and us being able to really understand what's going on it would be helpful when [37:48] we have Maps like this if you could say when like for Maison green you know [37:56] when we start started tracking and how many months it's actually been in compliance and how many units have been [38:04] compliant okay um because we're just looking at it and this image makes it seem like hey this is fantastic um and [38:14] so that I mean we we need to be able and the public needs to be able to see that [38:20] question Julie yeah what's the what's the extension of what your point is you are you suggesting that because enforc [38:27] may be an issue that we should abandon policy or change policy no I'm saying we [38:33] need is there are they connected or disconnected in terms of policy and enforcement they're connected however [38:42] it's all about creating policy that is informed and this is kind of the same [38:48] thing that came up in our talks about the budget where we got a lot of very general information but we weren't [38:55] getting the specifics that we need um and I think in order to have sound [39:01] policy we need to have that information and so I see them interconnected and [39:07] interdependent does that make sense yeah I'm just trying to figure [39:12] out if you were are you going to if you were going to suggest that because we're having some [39:19] challenges around enforcement based on being a statutory City that that should somehow affect our policy on affordable [39:24] housing I as a elected official do not have and this again kind of goes back to [39:30] what uh member Pierce said at the budget meeting okay where he was saying you know if you ask me to make cuts to the [39:37] Cargill budget I have that knowledge I could do it but I don't have the knowledge we need City staff to figure [39:44] out what it is that needs to happen to fix this problem it can't be coming to [39:49] us we're not the experts I so yeah jump in for a second [39:55] so you had asked to have more information upfront um when we do Tiff as an example [40:01] the Redevelopment agreements have a whole chapter about um the number of [40:07] units the types of units and then there's a whole exhibit that's like 40 some pages that has all the compliance [40:14] details so that's always in the Redevelopment agreements upfront the challenge is um the city council the H will [40:21] approve a project in funding with the developer that builds the project on year [40:28] one two years later the project is finished they hire a property management company to actually implement it on the [40:36] day that we approve the zoning or the financing they don't know who the property manager is going to be so um [40:42] all the information we have the guidelines the the guard rails we definitely established that but I think [40:48] like the Mason green I'll pick on that one as an as an example they've had three different [40:53] property managers since that building opened and I think that's part of the challenge here is they brought in [41:00] someone it didn't work out they brought in someone else there were some issues they brought in a third person meanwhile [41:07] Stephanie and the compliance agency that we use has been working with each one to get them off to the good start and then [41:15] two months later they leave so they do it again so I think that's why that one's had a bunch of bumps in in the [41:20] road but when we approve that project when you approve that project in 2021 who could for [41:28] that there'd be such turmoil in the property management industry so we provide as much information as we can to [41:34] make your decision but the first couple years of a project are always the rockiest once they stabilize it's a [41:41] whole lot easier they've got patterns in place they have systems in place Stephanie and the affordable housing [41:47] connections um do a great job of giving them the rules on day one and then we [41:53] remind them give this to your property manager when you're interviewing your property manager let them know these are the rules for [41:59] these 10 units or whatever um but yet that's this is just how the industry works the first years are are rocky but [42:07] it's but um it sounds like it's not just the first years like the lauan was [42:13] compliant and slipped out of compliancy so it's like this ongoing thing and I want to push back a little bit on the [42:19] Tiff agreement because we don't get anything about square footage in the [42:25] last Tiff agreement that we did There's l anguage that one person can change the [42:30] makeup of what we're getting and and there isn't even a clause that says that [42:37] that person has to report back to council or the HRA and that's it manager [42:43] Neil executive director Neil so there's a lot of ambiguity and we're spending [42:50] millions and we are not I mean just and and I know it's really it's hard but [42:56] just you know and I'm I'm trying to put this has got to be really frustrating you know from a staff perspective but [43:02] you know also from an elected official perspective we need to be the stewards [43:08] and we are accountable to the residents and I need to be able to say the next [43:13] time there's a multif family that comes up like are we ever going to see affordable housing units and when I do [43:20] the comparisons of the two compliance reports what are the chances you know so [43:25] there's that but I I'm sure my colleagues probably have other things they want to talk about so let's we can [43:31] add that to the list things to talk about in more details we go here so I [43:36] kind of want to build off of um commissioner Jackson call me Caroline [43:42] Carolyn um was saying of like the 1804 number is maybe not the north star that [43:50] we should be guiding towards and what I think would be helpful is maybe getting [43:56] more in the weeds and I know that you know you never want us to be too far in the weeds but having more tactical [44:05] attainable goals that we set um that's a [44:10] little bit more specific and so a couple of examples right I think Carolyn yours [44:15] with you know housing for adults with developmental disabilities like that's something more tactical measurable that [44:22] we can go towards um things that are specific to Workforce housing with [44:27] teachers nurses officers whatever it might be of people who work in the community and wanting to ensure we have [44:33] housing for them um I really appreciate what the mayor was saying about like looking at the demographics because my [44:41] fear is always do we have enough kids in the schools to maintain the funding [44:46] maintain that um enrollment number so should we be prioritizing kid-friendly or kid focused [44:54] kind of Housing and right we know that potentially because of the 0.1 per unit [45:00] that maybe just like this strictly market rate multi-unit housing doesn't [45:05] align with that um the other one is you know we talked about the the walkability [45:12] the sustainability should we look at um you know like a tiny home Village that [45:18] focuses on that sustainability completely green um in a hyper local kind of note [45:27] where we can also focus on the walkability component as well and so I [45:32] think taking what had been more of a macro level View and I know that sometimes our our hands are kind of tied [45:38] like we're not going to be going out and like actually building this ourselves we're dependent on developers but I [45:44] think being a couple steps more specific and I I think that's partially what you're asking for as well um I think [45:51] will help us in Meeting those goals better and I think it's also partially what we're hearing from members of the [45:57] community is like we don't want to just fund affordable housing in some cases [46:04] but where Are there specific projects that we can really Garner some support and excitement around I think would be [46:09] helpful um and then I always and kind of going back to that Matrix that was [46:16] provided um love looking at ownership opportunities and so I think that will continue to be a focus and I understand [46:22] that can't be 100% necessarily of what we do um in terms of like the city as a [46:29] whole but I think continuing to focus on those opportunities will really be key um because I go back to I forget what it [46:36] was called I think it was engagement on one of the first couple of slides where we talk about inclusivity and like [46:42] bringing people together um and I just think of like schools and like School AG [46:49] kids and what is that mean um and I really want to ensure that like we're setting the people up for [46:57] Success that we're bringing into the community um and kind of where I'm going with that like without being as specific [47:03] is like I've observed some of the otherness of like oh you come from that [47:08] part of the city or um oh you're in that housing you're other and so how can we [47:18] really Stitch things together and not just create housing that is other [47:24] housing do you mind if I follow up on that yeah [47:29] go ahead and then I'll give a few yeah so so two things to follow up on that um [47:35] uh had an interesting conversation last night about the housing market and how many people how many seniors are staying [47:41] in their homes even though they can't keep them up and everything because of the interest rates and the cost so [47:47] related to Bringing kids in is providing that alternative housing for seniors I think there are a lot of people who [47:53] would like to leave their home they don't want to lose a ton of money to do that um and then um one type of housing [48:01] that I learned about there's a need for is recovery housing for people at the [48:06] hospital and um that's a real specific need they need someone they're not ready [48:11] to go home yet because their home needs to be retrofitted or whatever um and but the hospital is keeping them in hospital [48:17] beds uh which is extremely expensive and so Fairview hospital um needs that type [48:23] of housing so just to put that out as a data point that um the guy who presented [48:29] to the chamber um the Chamber of Commerce had a Brett sunrise breakfast [48:35] with Fair viiew hospital and he's actually the head of nursing but then I followed up with their Community um uh [48:43] engagement fellow whose namec me I thought between Aurora and um and about [48:49] 7500 yard but we have these Transitional Care Facilities yeah Transitional Care and they've got a shortage of that um so [48:57] that's um I didn't have a sense of that so that's interesting yeah and I don't think yeah that's a [49:03] different question from affordable housing I think but yes but it's a housing need that we have like a ro on [49:09] France provides Transitional Care exactly they reel them down to Skyway and in there yeah yeah so um but you [49:16] know whether we want to follow up on that it's a data point that I've learned so I'm not sure that the Met Council was [49:22] that sophisticated in the way you went about analyzing the housing need because when I've been in these meetings with [49:29] them they talk about well there's going to be 600,000 more people here by 2050 you know where where they go who [49:36] who's getting what percentage and if you even look at their website and they talk about use din as an example well your [49:43] share is 1800 it's just a it's a per population allocation they just they [49:48] just sort of randomly at least in my opinion just kind of randomly you decide that okay based on your population you [49:54] you're going to take x% of these people but they also say this is just it's not a mandate they don't have any ability to [50:00] mandate anything it's a goal and they they they talk on their website about [50:05] how it's probably not achievable but here we just want you to understand the potential scope of the [50:11] problem and um and we've had some really good I think some really good conversation this morning around well [50:16] what are these areas of concentration that we think are important our to I think Kate did a good job of talking [50:22] about and Carolyn some of these things that uh you know we think are important because when you I mean years ago when I [50:29] first got to be mayor uh pente was the governor and I don't [50:35] know how I ended up on this task force but it was a state task force on on housing the connection between housing [50:42] jobs and transportation and we worked for months uh Tim Marks who ran Catholic churches [50:50] he was in the head of Minnesota Housing Finance we we were all over the country looking at how cities [50:57] an are is go about creating that connection between housing jobs and transportation that [51:03] triangulation and the report went on the Shelf at Minnesota Housing Finance never [51:09] to be seen again so it might be something worth trying to resurrect or at least find it and look at it um I [51:16] mean we were in Utah I I remember all the different places we went uh to look at different options on the connection [51:24] how to create that that logical connection between between Transportation which are the things we've talked about this morning that [51:29] effective triangulation between jobs housing and transportation system needs [51:35] and so uh if we if we settle in on some areas that we think are important to our [51:41] town seniors people with disabilities uh Workforce uh [51:48] families um that seems to be an interesting sort of Direction Al [51:54] you know carollyn says alternative housing for seniors um that's an [51:59] interesting thought there too so [52:05] um you get this it's it's to me it's a bit circular me we we we don't even [52:11] really have a source of funds for anything anymore because we've exhausted basically what we have uh on projects [52:19] that were totally dedicated to housing affordability like alond and flats and [52:26] and the sound and we've done it uh in market rate multif [52:32] family uh heart kind of sinks when you see that CH winon our former colleague [52:39] has announced that they have to suspend to come home to e Diner program that's been so successful we got that the only really [52:47] definitive source of funds that we got coming in now is that laa money I think is it but and that's what you got that [52:52] estimated at 600,000 a year [52:58] well how do we this is maybe a question for you how are we going to go about [53:03] aligning what we think our interests are with what we think the potential sources of funds are that a conversation yet to [53:10] be held we trying to define the Direction first and then look at funds [53:16] potential source of funds yeah it's a iterative process the [53:22] um I mean 18 months ago about June is when um commissioner [53:30] Pierce had concluded his year-long work with trying to find sustainable [53:35] affordable housing funding sources um you know there uh strategy of [53:42] sorts was presented as concept um to see whether or not there is interest in [53:48] exploring those Concepts further and at the time there didn't seem to be um so [53:55] the only only ones that we know of short of those strategies are the laa which is [54:01] about 600 um I applied for uh some met Council [54:07] funds and received them to help Walt and habitat I'm applying for now matching [54:12] trust fund money um it's $225,000 so that's one Walt house I mean [54:20] these are the scale in which we're talking about that's out there um so I'm [54:26] and writing that application right now uh lot of effort for little money um [54:33] that would that will support one house so I mean this there's tools the city [54:41] could employ I don't want to mention them right now um I mean we can talk about them but they are the ones that [54:46] were mentioned 18 months ago and what I recall from that was we're open to it [54:53] generally maybe some of us more than others but we wanted to know what would it be going for so we wanted to do more [55:00] of that matching of a detailed strategy with then the funding sources and so I [55:07] think that's where now as we're like tweaking potentially the policy or our strategy as a city I think it makes it [55:14] an easier story to then tie it to the benefits and to be able to start to [55:19] evaluate a little bit more of that Roi if we can go in and we can talk about the specificity of here are some of our [55:28] North stars and the value to the city and kind of what we've been talking about of how do we start to get at this [55:34] Roi you might not be able to do it when you just say 1,800 units but with a little bit more in the [55:42] weeds I think we can tie it better and it's a different story it's a different conversation when we have that [55:48] conversation um one of one of my concerns you know and I I [55:53] was really happy to attend it was the 2025 Regional legislative breakfast last [56:00] Friday and it was all about affordable housing and seeing what other communities are doing and I'd be happy [56:06] to share my folder with um you all but one thing that really struck me and [56:13] I sat at a table um with a woman who was part of the fundraising arm in Minnetonka okay and so it's not just the [56:22] city and the taxpayer dollars that are going to Affordable house there is a very robust fundraising arm [56:30] and we don't really have that here and I think that puts a lot of pressure on um [56:38] residents and when I think back 18 months ago one of the things that people were really concerned about is that you [56:44] do have people seniors in fixed income on fixed incomes who are going to see a [56:51] reduction in what they could get if they sold their home and there was this deed [56:57] tax that was added to it and would they have the resources they were counting on [57:02] and and I think what is concerning is [57:09] we're not necessarily looking at total cost when we come up with these ideas and who is going to get hit and how is [57:15] that going to happen and so that's that's important the other thing you know we talk about naturally occurring [57:21] affordable housing and how important that is and at this event one of the things they were saying is you know it [57:28] really is important to stress ownership opportunities and not so much rentals but you know I look [57:35] at what we do for Noah and we do some really great things for Noah but at the same time we'll have a naturally [57:42] occurring affordable house that the market has not torn down it still stands [57:48] and the ask will be can we rezone this so we can build town homes that are 700 [57:54] or $800,000 and that gets support from affordable [58:00] housing and I think that really you know and when we talk about threats to Noah [58:06] it can't just be limited to the market it also has to be including these [58:12] efforts that we're taking to do densification because densification is not resulting in affordable housing it's [58:20] resulting in more seven and 800 or even million plus housing so there's that the [58:27] other thing is they we were talking about Bloomington and what Bloomington does and they have a 9% affordable [58:32] housing policy for their new multif family and you know how did we land on [58:37] the 10% fore and I'm wondering because we I mean the proposal was to [58:45] lower it to eight for a recent project and I don't you know and and so how if [58:52] we've got these policies but we're not upholding them or we're being asked to [58:58] diminish them then I I think that is a little bit rattling for residents and we [59:07] need to figure out you know for Edina given I'm very intrigued by what Carolyn [59:12] said about you know this false narrative and the Met Council and the numbers and everything you know we we need to be [59:19] very strategic in terms of the initiatives we're signing on for and [59:27] somebody I can't remember who it was was saying you know we used to get 5% all the time and there was no money that had [59:33] to go for that so I don't know if that maybe that's not that's not accurate okay that's not accurate okay but we got [59:41] we all we have is the bully public we get a few units here a few units there we' got a good chart on that all right [59:47] so but what you know how do we get a number that will actually you know work I think is an [59:55] issue but the other thing is I think we need to count our successes we I mean that hotel that is being transformed [1:00:00] that is huge and that's a private that's not going to require any funds that is [1:00:06] amazing that that is happening and so you know that's important so can I go back to your initial point about the [1:00:12] fundraising arm in all fairness to um member pierce his proposal was to get a [1:00:20] bulk of public money which would then allow um private investment as well so [1:00:25] he if I remember correctly it was about $40 million of public money um would which [1:00:31] would then be um supplemented to 100 million fund with Investments but that they needed that core public money in [1:00:39] order to do that so that was that was his long-term Vision was to create a fund which could then attract private [1:00:45] funds as well um and so that that has been talked about um it's just raising [1:00:52] $40 million it's just a jaw-dropping thing to do um and and so that kind of [1:00:58] stopped right there but um but that was his his big Vision was to to incorporate [1:01:03] private funds as well um and we also have the Edina housing Foundation which [1:01:08] um you know we haven't used as a fundraising arm but um it is adjacent to [1:01:14] our work raising issue uh we did talk about that at [1:01:20] length and it was a transfer tax and I think we all just thought that was not a good idea that was and we're willing to [1:01:27] talk about to your point sources of funds for doing the things that we think are important to do whether it's a it's [1:01:34] a modification our existing policy or whatever it might be but we weren't [1:01:39] willing to we weren't willing as a council uh or H to recommend to the [1:01:45] council the transfer tax idea which I think i' advanced in the task force [1:01:53] through one of the members um yeah so uh Julie's right I mean we the whole state [1:01:58] is the whole country the whole world is working on this production and affordability problem and [1:02:05] uh I suppose we think it's a little unique and Ed because our land is so expensive our our properties are so [1:02:12] expensive and it does create another dimension of difficulty that the city might not have if it has a lot of green [1:02:18] field but even in cities that have green field like Prior Lake uh or I guess [1:02:25] Maple Grove to a lesser extent um they can't get the builders to [1:02:30] build the kinds of houses that are affordable because nobody wants those houses you know is what they're saying [1:02:36] yeah so it's the market yeah you know um they were saying cost [1:02:41] $440,000 for this development in Chanhassen and the cash flow was for [1:02:47] $400,000 so like just by building these apartments and they were market rate already there was a $40,000 per unit [1:02:53] deficit so example exaggerated example of that was [1:02:58] presented by the panel at the mlc meeting last Friday from minetonka okay [1:03:03] he did 10 townhouse units M the per unit subsidy was $700,000 wow the subsidy the subsidy [1:03:11] that's crazy to create affordable housing units so now what they did is [1:03:17] they got permission from the legislature there were a handful of cities I think that got permission from the legislature [1:03:23] to use leftover Tiff funds aggregate them and use them for affordable housing and that's the way they were able to do [1:03:28] it but still the the subsidization level was staggering you know and they it's [1:03:34] unsustainable yeah so what what do we do you know [1:03:39] um as we go about trying to address this challenge in our town and more broadly I [1:03:45] think that's really where we need more of the creative ideas it can't just be continued sprawl of the single family [1:03:53] house which is what you get when you're thinking about Prior Lake or some of those other areas because they have the [1:03:59] land and so it continues to sprawl but then you have the transportation issues you have all these other components I [1:04:05] think we need to really be creative and almost go back to the drawing board in a lot of ways which is hard to do with [1:04:12] zoning laws and kind of the existing footprint of cities that we have within Edina [1:04:17] here if we said Workforce housing was a primary emphasis of ours just by way of [1:04:22] example and we looked at that triangulation issue that we're going to figure out a way to provide housing for [1:04:29] Workforce personnel and uh connect those jobs connect them to their jobs easily [1:04:35] through a system of transportation that didn't require them to even take public transportation they could walk right [1:04:41] then you start things start getting concentrated in a hurry in the saltdale district and we're we got a lot of [1:04:47] density there already you know so that has its own think through sort of issues [1:04:53] where where would where would you put it to try to achieve uh those goals of connectivity and uh [1:05:00] minimizing as as be says the uh greenhouse gas effect of everything and we don't really [1:05:07] have an effective uh public transportation system any yet you know [1:05:12] we could do it ourselves but we haven't decided to go on the bus business got that Authority from the [1:05:18] legislature they have our own bus system huh years ago when they did Centennial [1:05:24] AES we got the authority to have own bus system I would not make that I suppose [1:05:30] we could start the uh we could do the little compressed natural or CNG uh trolley running [1:05:37] around another that's another but it is tied right like we need to be thinking about Transportation [1:05:43] as we're making some of these informed decisions and looking at where are there [1:05:49] those opportunities which is why I really like that map from the U ofm study that was done CU that helps in [1:05:55] that prioritization another good example as Julie raised it was we just had those [1:06:00] young guys in front of us a week ago or so that wanted to put the four town houses over on Vernon Avenue started out [1:06:07] as and you had a letter in there in support of it and we asked them well what's the range of cost and it was [1:06:13] going to be 8 to 950 and that's is that that that apparently is a new missing metal in he [1:06:19] di don't know it's built on slab um it's not built slab on grade right but and [1:06:26] and that was a situation where they were meeting every single setback requirement [1:06:32] they were not needing dramatic variances and I think you know if that's the cost [1:06:39] for something that meets the code requirements when we Grant huge stepb [1:06:45] back variances we're making it harder to encourage smaller homes that might go [1:06:50] for more modest prices and so one one thing we could do is be more more [1:06:56] consistent when it comes to enforcing the standards that are on the books and that might encourage smaller more [1:07:02] affordable homes I just think the cost of construction right now is just it's it's [1:07:10] uh you can't overcome that with zoning will not fix the cost of construction it [1:07:15] doesn't matter what the zoning is it's just the new construction notion for ownership single family I don't even [1:07:21] think we should have that in our I mean there's data around that [1:07:26] the meetings I've been in on a on a metrowide basis the the data show [1:07:31] clearly that you're much better off getting a bang for the buck out of Noah than you're out of trying to do new [1:07:37] construction they emphasized that at the meeting where we were and so you know I would [1:07:42] really like us to think when we're resoning and this you know moving toward [1:07:49] Town Homes we're not getting affordability and I think you know one of the things that we could be focusing [1:07:55] on is what can we do to ensure that we're not making decisions that will undermine [1:08:02] affordable housing and I think that yeah sorry okay no that's I think it's easy [1:08:10] to look at a specific project like that and say oh they're tearing down one [1:08:15] potentially Noah house and bringing in four that are not cheap right not [1:08:22] affordable um but I think that the other component is when we look at the city as [1:08:28] a whole and the number of units you get the the impact on supply and demand and [1:08:35] so by having more Supply it helps at that level of I mean what are we looking [1:08:41] at just a few years before the average home price is a million dollars um that's because we are for the most part [1:08:48] supply constrained and so as we Infuse additional units of housing it helps to [1:08:54] Abate some of that increase and so I think it's hard to say like oh well there was no impact on [1:08:59] affordability because it is harder to measure at some of those macro Trends and levels but we are as we take that [1:09:07] approach we are losing Noah I mean I think you could argue [1:09:12] either way and like they bought the lot and they were planning on doing something there what's to say they [1:09:18] wouldn't just build a $2.5 million house either when people that move into that housing are now not competing for other [1:09:24] housing yeah thank you I look at my neighborhood where we have smaller more affordable [1:09:30] modest homes that have a single car garage and I just I walk the street and [1:09:37] they and I just think this is not going to be here it's going to be wiped out by [1:09:42] 800 900 doll homes with big garages probably small I'd say that you're [1:09:49] underpricing yeah no but I mean I think if we just look at it and [1:09:56] say well prices will fall if we add density if Idina was not as small as it [1:10:03] is and located where it is maybe that would be true but it I I don't see the [1:10:11] logic of that and I I do get concerned when I it seems like we will sacrific [1:10:20] Noah to add another unit and I guess I I don't think prices will fall I think [1:10:25] that they will not increase as quickly so so let me just take this this is a [1:10:31] really interesting discussion but why I I've seen this as playing cards so each [1:10:37] card represents a type of Housing and so how are we going to deal the cards and [1:10:43] excuse me for I'm forming this as I'm talking so but you have Town Homes you have existing small single family homes [1:10:51] you have Apartments you have market rate Apartments so I would like to see this [1:10:56] as a set of a deck of cards and that's what the grid is that that Stephanie put together it's another way of visualizing [1:11:02] it and so we're going to look at each box in that grid I think of them as cards or as boxes in the grid and say [1:11:09] okay this is the Box we want to focus on and I and and and to your point is one [1:11:15] one of the boxes is preserving small single family homes and we could put 100% of our energy into that but that's [1:11:22] that's where I think we're going with this conversation is to take that grid and look at the different boxes and say [1:11:28] where do we want to put our resources our policies and things and and I'm hearing a very strong voice for small [1:11:35] single family homes to preserve them um that's an option and that's on that grid [1:11:41] so I think eventually when we're done with this conversation we'll be able to look at that grid and say this is an ace [1:11:48] this is a two you know this is a king this is a seven kind of things like that so applying some values to what are now [1:11:56] blank cards that help yeah I like the bucket analogy more than the cards [1:12:02] but I think it's a it's a really uh good visual and uh and then in that process [1:12:09] you know I'm sitting here making assertions well it's a lot because I've heard this is that you know the notion of building new is a lot more expensive [1:12:16] in providing affordable housing than fixing up something that exists the no idea but uh so we should have data on [1:12:24] that you you know I mean in on the on Caroline on the grid or on Carolyn's playing cards whatever you want to say [1:12:30] okay you want to do Noah here's here's what the average cost has been for you to take a house buy it fix it up put it [1:12:37] in the land trust resell it and I will say since we since um you all awarded [1:12:44] trust fund money to Habitat and homes Within Reach between 2007 and [1:12:51] 2020 we're averaging about one Land Trust home every 16 months since 2020 [1:12:59] when more money was put in we've added 14 so but the problem is to um somewhat [1:13:06] to commissioner risser's Point too is when people have a home they have free will on who they're going to sell it to [1:13:12] and they have free will of what they're going to do with that home and so some people have [1:13:17] chosen to sell to homes Within Reach or habitat and some people have had those homes have chosen to sell to a developer [1:13:25] ER and they have the right to do so and so they then sell to a developer because [1:13:30] the developer will offer cash no inspection and then they tear down the home and rebuild it and so the idea is [1:13:39] unless you're going to impact free will people can choose to sell and have the home torn down if they so desire and and [1:13:48] so the idea of you know even duplexes if you have one 60t [1:13:55] lot Addison can correct me here I'm not good with lot sizes in the city um and [1:14:02] if one home is built on it it will have a value of x if two homes are built on [1:14:08] it each of those homes will not have a value of x they'll have something less [1:14:13] than x because they will be smaller and but who but the sale of that home of [1:14:19] that Noah property we have no control over we can provide in we can provide [1:14:25] options like hey if you want to preserve your home because you have family dreams and you [1:14:32] have memories and you are tired of the tear Downs here's an option although we're [1:14:38] running out of money on that I think we have enough money for like one more home um can't you don't you do a write of [1:14:44] first refusal on those uh not for the seller the seller [1:14:50] it's absolutely seller will no but I mean is when you go to sell that house in the first place why can't you get the [1:14:56] buyer to make to commit through a contract that we have the right of first refusal to buy the house [1:15:02] back you don't have to set the price but whatever the market is bearing we have the right to at least step up and buy it [1:15:09] first before they sell it to a developer oh if they allow us that right no no no [1:15:17] I'm okay I'm talking about think you're talking apples and oranges you are so [1:15:22] Stephanie's talking about I Carolyn Jackson want to sell my home I can sell it to a developer or to Walt oh no she's [1:15:28] talking and then you're talking about resale once I've sold it to Walt right are there what she was talking about no [1:15:35] I was talking the ones that are currently unaffiliated with the Walt ones are there is definitely that's a [1:15:42] recycle that's 99 years of affordability it's the ones that aren't in the program yet that are just out there sorry I miss [1:15:49] it yeah that's okay it's for catching that disconnect I was [1:15:54] yeah well so we are doing that with the w I'll call it the Walt houses the Noah houses where you got a right of first [1:15:59] refusal we don't have a right of first refusal there's a ground Le placed on them so they have to be sold into [1:16:05] affordability for 99 years okay um but again the financing for that [1:16:13] I think there's enough funding for one or two more homes but through that program that we've been running through the city where you say we've got enough [1:16:19] for maybe one more you've been having some people that have said no i' prefer to have my home home stay as it is and [1:16:25] get fixed up and have a family come in that can afford to be here Asos to selling it to 14 [1:16:33] yeah but supplies running low I mean we're we're getting to a point there's far fewer on the market I've looked at [1:16:40] the list of the people that originally contacted me saying hey I'm interested in this program and they ultimate um and [1:16:46] to see what happens to some of those homes that we that Walt or habitat didn't buy a lot of them were torn [1:16:51] down so the supplies were we're we fighting time and [1:16:57] supply and the cost to do one of those each year continues to go up right because of the pent up Demand right so [1:17:04] those homes that two years ago were 425 are now 500 and so they're going up every year [1:17:12] and so we're our Gap would be increasing you are there any you know here's I'll [1:17:17] preface it this way we got the new fire station going up on 76 we've talked about what to do with that excess land [1:17:22] on fire station that seems to me to be of the few places maybe the only place where we can help Drive [1:17:28] affordability doing maybe what we did at 4040 just just thought you hang onto the [1:17:36] land keep the land put it on the 99e lease and then you allow the [1:17:42] construction of with a housing Foundation of combination of ownership and Rental or whatever whatever we [1:17:49] decided to do there do we have any other places in town where we can drive affordability that the Grand View site [1:17:57] yeah I mean the two sites that the city has control over Grand View and fire station [1:18:02] Outlaw um I had mentioned others but I was told by parks department to not [1:18:08] mention them but I think we need to get and this [1:18:13] is where when we come and we have these General conversations and we're sort of blue skying and we don't have a lot of [1:18:21] information that piece of land behind the fire station doesn't have an access [1:18:26] road and we need to know that and it's a small piece of land it's like less than [1:18:34] I think you need at least five acres in order to create a cartway into a piece [1:18:41] of land according to Minnesota State Statute you don't the Ring Road around [1:18:46] Fire Station 2 is a Ring Road it's a Ring Road and there's no it's not going to [1:18:52] compromise the way the fire station's going to it was designed to serve as a access road for the back parcel okay and [1:18:59] to serve the fire station and then theoretically also to serve if the LA [1:19:05] Fitness changes at some point in the future okay it would function as the road for that property as well so it's [1:19:10] certainly is designed to serve to serve the the vacant land okay which is like four acres or so yeah vacant land [1:19:17] including the Wetland area the whole thing yeah yeah okay and so there's part of it that is not buildable correct and [1:19:25] so we need to know what the buildable area is we need to explore [1:19:30] whether maybe the I don't know if we've talked to the commercial areas behind it [1:19:36] if they would be willing to purchase it but I feel like the information we need [1:19:42] in order to make informed decisions aren't isn't necessarily flowing to us and I look this is a great away from [1:19:48] anything on that I just I'm sorry I even brought it up as an example because it's just a it's a it's a small piece in the [1:19:55] big picture it right we got a big picture problem we we have a big picture problem diverted Us by even mentioning [1:20:01] but then we also have like for example though we will launch a project that may have a fatal flaw like when we talked [1:20:08] about Solem and the community you know we ended up having these meetings and [1:20:15] then this neighborhood opposition to the project and all of that and then in the [1:20:20] end after all this time and energy and uh kind of negative [1:20:27] feedback we have the aha moment that oh we can't do it because of the sewer cost [1:20:33] and that that was unknown that was outside discuss yeah that was outside the city discussion that was on [1:20:40] developer would say but the developer had come with a for-profit project [1:20:45] before and so there was City awareness of that because that project didn't move forward because of the sewer it was a [1:20:52] part of discussion the whole time though the initial proposal they' come with a potential agreement from ananka right so [1:20:58] it was always a part of the discussion it wasn't the last minute oh we forgot about this it wasn't in the because I've [1:21:05] watched those meetings it wasn't brought up at the meeting the two meetings that we had and then it was sort of I mean it [1:21:11] was referenced very briefly but the impact of that let's let's let's uh if you don't mind I want to go forward [1:21:17] looking um I understand your point that that we need information that's a very good point um Mr Mayor to your point [1:21:24] about all the stuff that you've seen at the national level and everything how can we [1:21:32] articulate this big disconnect between the cost of building housing and what's [1:21:37] possible because I think you know we can come up with all sorts of clever ideas but then we're always going to hit that [1:21:43] wall of cost I don't know how to visualize that do you have [1:21:49] any um it just seems like I I see it as sort of this this Dark Cloud over [1:21:55] everything we're saying that that you know we want this but the costs are so high and the [1:22:00] barriers um right you your point this may be a [1:22:06] conversation in the abstract yeah yeah exactly because of the point Julie made early on we're already working on how to [1:22:12] get our budget in a position where it's sustainable over time and to add another [1:22:18] layer of obligation to the taxpayers is something that we haven't even talked [1:22:23] about yet so yeah I I don't see anybody being able to figure this out at the legislature you know they last year they [1:22:30] thought well we'll solve this problem by just taking over land use yeah and preempting cities on their own land use [1:22:36] and we'll just do the Minneapolis plan and force every city to allow eight plexes six plexes and fourplexes and [1:22:43] duplexes and single family neighborhoods yeah that's where everybody got amped up because we want to protect the Integrity [1:22:49] of our single family neighborhoods so uh and then the the Minnesota Housing [1:22:55] Finance I understand Stephanie may know more about this than I do but they're they're they're con although the [1:23:03] legislature in 2023 put a I think a billion three into [1:23:08] housing it's it said kind of it it's their their money their con area [1:23:14] concentration is different from ours yes they're thinking about people coming out of homelessness and people from there to [1:23:21] 30% of Ami we're sitting here this morning talking about Workforce housing people with disabilities families to get [1:23:29] in the system so that we can regenerate our school population um and so we may not that [1:23:36] might that's probably not a source of funds you know the state yeah so um yeah [1:23:42] it's a great question you know I mean we're going to have this conversation at the end of the day it doesn't go anywhere it goes on the Shelf like that [1:23:49] thing I worked on for a year yeah in 2005 or whatever it was yeah it just seems [1:23:57] well thank you I think um again you know our goal was to just say that affordable [1:24:04] housing as you are well aware is not an isolated topic it is tied to multiple [1:24:10] policies multiple objectives multiple Endeavors of that you all um have put [1:24:17] your stamp on and this is part one and we will come together um in a month I [1:24:23] think May or March 13th um to share demographics you know what is the population of seniors what is the [1:24:30] population of um folks that make Anna um just did some pulled some data about the [1:24:38] number of folks in Dina that make less than $10,000 a year um that and who who [1:24:45] are our current residents and what is our current housing Supply a million dollars in a few years and where are [1:24:52] there disconnects between who lives here and the cost of housing and whether or not we need to address who lives here or [1:24:59] whether or not we need to bring different people here to pay for the housing you know it just and grapple [1:25:05] some of those but we'll just lay the data out yeah um and try to organize it [1:25:10] based on the conversation today I think we're going to have to Ser some followup meetings um to present that please [1:25:17] include Workforce and then on a unrelated thing I was looking at um the [1:25:23] census has data on how far people travel to work and that has changed dramatically over time so I you know how [1:25:31] people get to work and and what our Workforce is because you know that again is a sustainability aspect of [1:25:37] it yeah thank you they are of people even if they're not residents okay so it'll probably be [1:25:44] pretty much the same team um in a month um and we'll pull together that data [1:25:49] because I know that prior to co we had 44,000 people people traveling into the [1:25:55] city each day for work right um lot using single cars and the [1:26:03] the data just 25% of people in din to work from home in the statistic in the [1:26:09] 2020 census it showed so and that's a dramatic increase over time so probably low now yeah it's probably low now right [1:26:16] her 40% yeah it would be interesting to see you know if what what data is available [1:26:22] on that so okay thank you thank you this is great [1:26:28] thanks um we stand Jour wow