[0:00] all right well let's uh let's call to order the uh city council work session for the city of viina we are meeting in [0:06] the city hall community room it is Tuesday August 20th 2024 5:30 p.m. and [0:13] uh our clerk Sharon Ellison has us um recording the meeting and I'm going to ask her now to call the meeting to order [0:20] council member Jackson here council member Pierce here coun [0:25] herec abent mayor H here yeah well miss our young colleague exing but uh work [0:35] day job calls from time to time and we get these conflicts so we know know what that's about um so we've got uh some [0:43] meeting topics we're going to cover tonight the uh 2025 to 2030 CIP and the 2025 budget with uh how the staff was [0:52] looking at it I guess the city council hasn't had a chance to really think this through yet but we're willing to listen [0:58] and ready to listen to what you have to say and I'm going to let you lead it off manager Neil okay thank you uh I think [1:04] the first thing I want to start with is is just some a little bit of discussion around process um we have been using the [1:12] same process essentially the same process uh to do our annual budgeting uh [1:18] for the last 10 plus years and that is that we do a two-year operating budget [1:24] and we talk about our 2-year operating budget in odd numbered years uh and then [1:30] in even numbered years we we spend our time uh devoted to Capital spending uh [1:38] prioritization uh of capital spending but really the capital spending piece of all of our different funds general fund [1:45] utilities Etc and we do all of that in as I said in odd uh excuse me in even [1:51] numbered years and that's for a six-year kind of rolling time frame so when you [1:57] think about where what we did in uh 2023 in 2023 it was an odd-numbered year we [2:04] spent a lot of time both with you and with staff and with the community talking about what service levels we [2:10] wanted and where we thought different uh operating costs were going uh what was [2:15] inflation what were energy costs Etc uh what was it going to cost to increase [2:20] service levels and we made some uh decisions in 2023 to increase uh specifically Public [2:27] Safety Staffing levels um we had a couple of other uh Stapp increases too [2:34] but really uh we we approved a a forecasted budget for 2025 and 2024 that [2:42] included uh essentially 15 new employees um five new employees in 2024 and 10 new [2:50] employees in 2025 and so you begin to see uh when we talk about uh the year [2:57] ahead in 2025 those numbers are built into that budget not only are they built [3:02] into that budget but of course the bigger the bigger number that was that we were we knew would come in 2023 but [3:10] is actually here in 2025 is the debt service for the fire station so that's that all starts in [3:16] 2025 but it is 2024 we haven't spent a great deal of time on our operating [3:22] budget and service levels for this year because we've been spending most of our time dedicated to Capital spending and [3:29] so we want talk about that tonight this is PA TOA I think you all have known you've all met P this is her first run [3:36] through our our budget system um Derek is also with us uh Derek has spent a lot [3:42] of time Derek Aton has spent a lot of time on the facilities end of it uh we have other staff here that can answer [3:47] questions about uh anything that you see but what we what we want to show you tonight is uh where we prioritize the [3:56] different Capital spending requests that that came in from all different parts of our [4:01] organization uh we wanted to we did that within the scope of understanding uh how [4:08] critical that building is or that facility is to our programming how much does it get used uh what kind of shape [4:14] is it in and uh more than anything else what are our funding parameters we had [4:20] funding parameters that we used of of how do we allocate $2 million a year in New Capital spending because that's the [4:27] amount of of property tax levy that we had dedicated to Capital funding so what we want to show you tonight is how we [4:34] recommend spending $2 million in in capital spend and we want to get your uh [4:40] your questions your opinions uh maybe You' got a different idea of how uh how you'd like us to do it but this is the [4:47] time to kind of surface those kinds of things because if we need to run some additional scenarios we've got almost a [4:54] month to do that before we have to make some uh important budget decisions so [5:00] that's my Preamble and I think I'd like to turn now to to P to take it from here [5:05] good evening so uh thank you Scott uh what I will be going over is a little [5:11] bit of what Scott's already touched on which is the background of our CIP or our budget process for the C of viina [5:18] and then I'll also go into a little bit of what our 2025 preliminary budget and levies look like and then we'll take a [5:23] deep dive into what our 25 and 30 preliminary Capital Improvement plan is [5:29] so with uh with that being said what I have here is a timeline showing you uh [5:35] important key dates uh we'll start off with back in December of 2023 where uh [5:40] Council had adopted the last Bal budget which is 24- 25 and the work plan since [5:46] then we've met at the end of April through the council Retreat where staff asked you uh Council for what are your [5:52] priorities for us to evaluate these different projects new ones and and existing ones how do we prioritize and [5:59] what are stuff for us to look at as we review um projects that comes in since [6:05] then staff has reviewed it through our CIP prioritization committee where staff took all these projects we reviewed it [6:11] through different lines which I'll talk about a little bit here but then we also showed you the different facilities that [6:17] um the city needs to consider for facility improvements uh and so dererk is here and he'll go over some of those [6:23] slides that we showed you back in uh June during those tour that tour and [6:28] then since then we uh reviewed taken Community uh the CIP prioritization [6:34] their feedback ELC reviewed it along with city manager and then what we're here tonight is showing you what is our [6:40] recommendation like Scott stated so this is all to prep for our preliminary Levy adoption in September to hopefully adopt [6:47] the final Levy in December so a little bit of the into the [6:53] background Scott's already touched a bit into it but um what just a reminder that the capital Improvement plan is a [6:59] six-year plan is part of our City's strategic policy which is part of the vision Dina and like Scott says um City [7:07] staff do work with Council to develop the two-year budget plant that you adopt and then on the even year we focus more [7:14] so on the CIP with the offe being on uh the operating budget or the next bienal [7:21] budget what I have here is uh a review of where we uh what you adopted back in [7:27] December of 23 as the first two column 2024 is the adopted the middle column is [7:32] what was the original 2025 adoptively adopted budget for 25 which landed at a [7:38] 13.48% increase this a majority of that increase has to do with a Debt Service for the new Fire Station uh but then [7:46] what we are proposing or recommending is a 13.14 which is slightly less than what [7:51] council had tedly adopted back in uh December this is due to cost saving from [7:57] our good interest rate that the city was able to obained for the bond that we just issued not too long ago um with [8:03] this being said I want to call out that about 5.46% of this increase uh is due [8:09] to of course the debt issuance for the fire station and the increase for Public Safety [8:16] Staffing here's just a reminder of the priorities that we received from Council back in um April at the council Retreat [8:23] and this picture is actually from that Retreat um and so just to call it out preservation maintenance accessibility [8:30] and inclusion along with flexibility for future use are these key priorities that you provided us at that time for staff [8:37] to consider when re evaluating um Capital Improvement projects that comes [8:43] through I've stated since then staff through the uh CIP prioritization [8:48] committee review the different types of projects that were submitted as well as the existing projects through two [8:53] different criterias one being project justification and urgency and two being through the different lens are our [9:00] values um of how that impact our budget since then staff has also put [9:06] together a CIP story map telling the residents what is the city of 's uh process for um doing putting together [9:14] the capital Improvement plan what is this is like a what is the guide for um to tell residents what we go through in [9:21] our process so now we get to the part where [9:27] we are getting ready to kind of lay out uh uh what we would say as our priorities and we want we want to hear [9:34] from you hopefully tonight what your priorities are so with this what I want to show [9:40] here is just the CIP Levy the history of it where it was um previously back in [9:46] 2014 we had we more so funded it through Surplus a more uh reactive approach uh [9:53] versus since 2018 we saw the need for a capital Improvement so then we levied [9:58] for it and so since then we have increased it in 2021 recognizing that there is more that we need to do to [10:04] maintain and uh preserve and keep up with our project needs and since then um [10:09] what we're showing you tonight which I'll show you later on as for us to still do more there is Need for us to do [10:15] more so Derek I'll let you go on for maintenance sure so I'm going to kind of tee off on that first item that P had uh [10:22] the preservation and maintenance um we presented this back at the retreat earlier this year um the on demand [10:29] maintenance for the city currently uh as at the end of 2023 is 46.2 million um we're projecting that out in 2027 to [10:36] increase to 53 million um that is really us maintaining and taking care of the buildings that we currently own and have [10:42] um Fire Station 2 that's currently under construction is not represented there but once it's open and operational in [10:48] the next year it will uh add to that uh that column that we have on the left uh the I'm sorry could you please remind me [10:55] the renewals versus requirements I looked at this slide I was a little confused sure so um the renewals portion [11:01] of it is more along the lines of uh we have an existing piece that's there [11:06] right um and it's reaching the end of its useful life so if we spend money and put money into it part component we're [11:13] extending its useful life right so um it's not a complete replacement um some of the the the requirements portion that [11:20] showing those last few years and it's really it's backdated is because those are systems that they needed to be replaced right we we didn't replace them [11:27] for some manner shape or form in some cases or they're part of a bigger project but that that's a must versus a [11:33] um extending of its useful life it's it's just expunged the reason that it doesn't show up that way um in the [11:39] preceding years is because it's just figured into that same column okay thank you yeah um so yeah so the column on the [11:44] right shows um how the the on demand maintenance is going to increase and that's quite significant only you can [11:51] see that we have up to in plenty of those years $10 million or more um that it's needed to address the needs of the [11:58] buildings and our portfolio um but that's pitted against that $2 million Capital Improvement level that we have so it really just kind of shows [12:05] the the need to start increasing that as we move forward through the years yeah [12:10] um another question we had back at the retreat was you know taking a look at a building if we started at square one [12:15] right and this I think this came from our CIP tour um how much does it cost to [12:21] basically operate a building but then how much money do we need to put into it on a biannual annual basis so I took a [12:27] look at uh the Fire Station 2 which is going to be coming online next year um and we start talking about you know how [12:32] much money are we going to be needing just for that building um in these kind of Milestone years we look at it the 5 [12:38] 10 15 20 year cycles and you can see you know the first couple of years of operation up to five years it's really [12:44] pretty minor it's 15,000 you know maybe $20,000 here or there for just mostly finishes and some of the niceties that [12:50] are inside of the building but then they start uh the need to start increasing there out where we have to start uh [12:55] replacing fire alarms and fire spankers based on technology or code requirement um and it has a pretty significant price [13:01] tag and that just starts ticking up as the building gets older um one of the things we start pointing out is there's [13:06] also kind of a rolling sequence here you'll see at the 10-year Mark we have three things there that are uh basically [13:12] related to mechanical electrical and Life Safety Systems those roll over again in year 20 right because there's a [13:17] constant 10-year requirement for that um the one thing that I will point out about this slide is when we're making [13:23] these projections that's using 2024 you know in 2046 or 2044 that [13:29] $3 million is going to go up quite significantly um I couldn't project inflation that far out I don't know if anybody can but um we're going to [13:36] definitely have to be increasing our CIP Lev move forward um to account for those type of phrases and [13:42] increases and is this hypothetical or no actually I I took the numbers that we [13:47] had um for our existing Public Works building and then looked at some of those requirements for that and then [13:53] projected them out for the fire station um same type of building little smaller obviously you know because the public [13:58] works a large Fleet storage but comparable size systems you know they both have geothermal systems so they're [14:04] very comparable from us so you'd be able to use this for forecast and purp 100% yeah [14:11] m y and then I think another question that came up uh Caroline you asked us and and you use the henan county example [14:18] for some of their properties so what you'll see here is you know we we kind of took a horizontal access there and [14:24] looked at it and said okay what year were the majority of these buildings you know done in so we took decades and looked at it that way had some upticks [14:29] in 65 to 74 again in 95 to 04 and then 2005 to 2014 so there's some significant [14:35] Milestones there with like Brar Arena fire stations Public Works City Hall the building we're in now um those kind of [14:42] all land in those larger columns and then on the the two uh vertical axises the left is that delayed maintenance so [14:48] it's correlating back to that $46 million and then on the right hand side of that it shows the square foot in the [14:54] thousands so you can kind of start seeing you know we've got a pretty large need um and what this really shows is [15:02] those buildings that were built in 65 to 74 even the buildings that were built in 85 to 94 they have some very substantial [15:08] needs uh for equipments and like namely mechanical systems roofs electrical systems that have higher price tags so [15:15] you can kind of tell that a lot of these buildings are starting to reach the end of their useful life and if we don't influ influx the cash or funding to them [15:22] then we're going to start seeing some you know critical failures of systems big concern there so in the 65 to 74 how [15:30] much of that is Brar Arena about 13 million-ish delayed [15:36] maintenance right that that's not making improvements or making it better it's just replacing with like for like right [15:42] and that is covered that that's covered by the sales tax referendum wasn't it [15:47] yes yeah okay okay it would be helpful to have a graph that showed that so the [15:55] public could see what is being covered by the referendum mhm we can make changes to that um and [16:04] then is I is delayed maintenance deferred maintenance Yeah okay or on [16:10] demand maintenance it's it's all the same um type yeah um and so I appreciate [16:17] member Jackson and member rer asking that question and making the [16:23] request but we have to do that and so I know where we are in the cycle [16:29] like we and I was going to wait till the end but I want I want to kind of just [16:34] Tee It Up and then you can keep going if you remember um when we we show we teased [16:43] this um I think back in I don't remember when it was 3 4 months ago and there was [16:50] a couple who was there for the agenda item before this this is the last thing [16:57] we talked about and they just stayed and they made the comment oh my [17:03] goodness I'm glad I stayed we got an email on it they were glad they stayed because they had no idea that we were [17:11] going to have a increase to 133% and so I think like that this was a [17:19] good example to be able to say well this is Brar like that's what should be on the [17:26] slide right we can say what the cost is and that's important but it's more [17:32] important that people at least whether they agree with it or not it is clear when they look at the slide [17:39] what the bulk of those dollars what that makes up and um there's a one of the [17:46] previous slides you go through it and I find [17:52] myself saying man if we would just do the five y when we do these slides [17:59] I think we'd have a better chance of getting them right and I don't know if you guys know what the five y's are but [18:05] you do your slide then you ask yourself why five times so why is that the why is [18:14] the is there so much green up there well because hey well why is that and just [18:21] keep Drilling in until it is so crisp and clear that anybody could look at it [18:28] and go all right those are the things that are in there whether they agree with them or not so that's not the point [18:33] about trying to get an agreement from the residence it's about them [18:39] understanding what's in there and then they'll make up their own mind and we'll get emails right we that'll always be [18:46] the case but we got to like we got to get better at telling that [18:54] story so this was prompted like said from a chart that I saw from hennipen [19:01] County but we also did a report 2018 2019 commissioned on the state of the [19:08] different buildings in Nina um and having a table of Cu I [19:15] remember the art center because this was in the energy and environment commission the art center was like bad in every respect it was you know in poor repair [19:23] it was very environmentally unsound and everything whereas the Public Works building great repair very [19:28] environmentally sound and it would be helpful to break this down by what the [19:33] buildings are and the ones that really are in bad repair um I think that that's [19:39] that would be useful yeah and you know um we play with this slide a couple of times right so [19:45] we've got a portf of 85 to 90 buildings so at some point it creates too many buildings to be shown on this but [19:51] highlighting some of those those bigger ticket items I think it's pretty easy um for comparison like right so what you're [19:58] talking about is facility condition index that typee of thing we we've done that and actually we showed that on the the original delayed maintenance slide [20:04] and there are some buildings out there that are you know on that borderline critical type thing um and I think what [20:09] it really goes to show is um in years past when we had 30,000 or $40,000 [20:15] available funds for the Capital Improvements we we we were not addressing some of those needs at those [20:20] times so that's how they they fell into that more of a critical status in some areas that might be useful too to say [20:26] you know how much money was spent in that decade on building repair um [20:32] because if we're looking at you know pretty sizable tax increase you know people like well the taxes were lower [20:38] but we're paying in a different way um so that might be useful too to add as [20:43] slid saying you know this is what we paid for repair that year and some some [20:49] years it was great and some years it wasn't yeah and I might be [20:55] though as I think about your comment what I'm talking about is likely not [21:04] necessarily tweaking this slide what I'm describing could be a whole different [21:10] overview of that and that's what you in my opinion you [21:16] speak to in Council in Chambers because people can consume that information in a [21:22] way that's easier for them to understand what's what cuz this is super complex [21:28] and then this is in the uh appendix or the deeper dive that they can do um and [21:38] so it might be that might be a slight difference in how I'm thinking about it too so but you guys have heard said this [21:45] before I like this all right so that's great feedback [21:51] and I think based off of what Caroline said um previously we used to just take [21:57] Surplus and then use that to fund our Capital needs right and so what staff is recommending to you tonight is the usage [22:04] of two different tools one is of course the more traditional one where we've since then implemented is loving through [22:11] um tax dollars for Construction and Equipment needs alongside the second one alongside bonding or financing for [22:18] Construction and Equipment needs for these projects that will ultimately absorb majority of our $2 million if we [22:25] were to just do it through the CIP Levy so so uh with that being said um staff [22:32] has the next few slide I'll show you the different years as far as what the construction fund CIP Levy projects are [22:38] slated for 2025 and 26 is shown up here first uh We've kept 25 somewhat similar [22:45] to what council had tally approved back in December of 2023 with the retrospective that we did remove 100,000 [22:52] from that one is it was $22 million but we removed 100,000 as that was related [22:58] to the comp plan which was not a capital Improvement project but more so an operating expense so that's why there's [23:05] a decrease in that uh Levy dollar otherwise in 26 uh we are showing a 2 a [23:12] 2, 205,000 levy and of course you also have these details of what the projects are in the [23:21] packet and then in 2728 staff is recommending an increase uh to the CIP [23:27] Levy to sustain all the projects that the city needs to work on um by increasing the CIP Levy uh 27 to 3 [23:35] million and 28 to $4 million and 29 and 30 uh shown here with [23:43] the projects with an increase to the levy at5 million and $6 [23:50] million and again I mentioned where we is this the right slide yeah and so um I [23:56] mentioned from 4 previously we we just spended our Capital needs through [24:01] relying on the budget surplus at the end of the year recognizing that there is a need for Capital maintenance and uh [24:07] capital projects to the city's uh project needs and so we saw that there [24:12] was a need and we increased it stly over the years um but what we recognize is [24:17] that in 2025 and out years we will need to increase this Levy to maintain our [24:23] different uh facilities as well as to keep going with our project needs into the [24:31] future I mentioned the second tool of financing opportunity or bonding for these projects that are um too big uh to [24:40] rely on the annual Levy CIP Levy uh these are those projects um listed here [24:47] um and so if we were to keep them to the CIP Levy it will of course absorb that $2 million and more right and so what [24:54] staff is recommending is considering bonding for these projects um and so of course with this direction FR Council [25:01] will be needed um for all of them but more so for 2026 the Project's listed in [25:06] 26 as these will ultimately be 25 projects with an impact to our 2026 uh [25:13] debt Levy and what is Public Works Cold [25:20] Storage so there's a facility um that is adjacent to the South metro police [25:26] training facility or Public Safety Training Facility um and it's it's more of a metal like shelter that contains all of the excess [25:33] equipment and things like that that we use to operate the city and our Public Works um about three years ago uh four [25:39] years ago City staff noticed that some of the uh roof trusses in that building were starting to crack we call a [25:46] structural engineering they came in they did um some minor repairs to it and put a bit of a a lifespan on that saying you [25:53] know we've only got you know 2 to seven years left of this building before we really need to start looking at [25:59] replacing it so the $2.3 million is to replace that entire structure as it is [26:04] so it's really important to City operations that it's there and the 30 million for Edinburgh it'd be great to [26:11] have like a list of why how do we get to 30 [26:17] million on that yeah I I would really suggest drawing a line between 27 and 28 [26:24] that 20 27 and 26 are projects that with a pretty good handle on we could give [26:31] you a lot of detail about what they are and why they are I think for 28 and 29 [26:37] um those are some projects with with substantial uh impact and cost and we [26:42] need to have some more discussion at the staff level too okay so when you talk about Edinburgh uh are you talking about [26:50] the um the public elements of that building what you talking yeah the [26:56] public elements of the park right parkol just our our stuff not the park [27:02] or the hotel or anything like that which at that level kind of begs a [27:08] detailed conversation about what it does it does have that we I would suggest we [27:15] have that conversation before we commit to that big of a number for the future that's on track with what we've [27:21] done previously with you so if you recall we did a real deep dive on Centennial Lakes Park for you yep um [27:27] 2023 and then brought together some ideas for that same thing on the Aquatic Center same thing on the arena so that's [27:34] kind of been our protocol is prior to getting to those decision points is to [27:39] bring you kind of that uh that deep dive [27:44] on you got a little bit of that going on right now the bra Mar facilities [27:49] evaluation uh for the arena itself no for the golf course for the golf course correct so similar to what we did [27:56] Aquatic Center golf Centennial Lakes Park Aquatic Center Arts Center so this [28:02] would be kind of that next one up in the queue to do a deep dive on so this would be money for the art [28:09] center at the southvale library or the building that's there now oh the the art [28:14] center at the library okay the build out yeah just want to clarify that deliver a [28:20] shell yeah we're trying to put as view of not as much not put very much money [28:26] at all into the existing building and the residence in just went up for sale [28:33] by Edinburgh right is that is the hotel by Edinburgh on the market I going to [28:40] auction it's going to auction [28:47] okay so all the stuff that we talked about at the Aquatic Center it can be [28:53] done for 5.9 more4 million um no [28:59] okay this is this is the critical filter room and then maybe doing that deck [29:05] that's directly above the filter room and some painting of that space specifically all of the other stuff we [29:12] think um we should probably try to figure out if we can at some point use lost or other funding sources but this [29:19] is really the critical stuff that's keeping the pool running right now okay goes back to when we did the bonding [29:25] request to the state legis we split it into like that 4 and a half million and 6 million phase of like this is that [29:30] critical infrastructure pump room filter room and the other half was the user enity [29:36] side thank you I just so the art center is is that [29:43] a new art center what is that that is the new art center project that we're proposing to do jointly with hen and [29:50] County so this would be like the furniture and Equipment inside of that yeah two things there was a portion of [29:57] it that uh we would help pay for our portion of the overall architecture of the site and [30:04] then the FF and the Furnitures fixtures and equipment that would go in okay what about the buildup we have a rle there [30:11] too or cost that's the FF so they're actually going to deliver it to us and then we have to put our furniture inside [30:17] of it and then our annual lease payment will we'll only have FF and on that [30:22] correct they'll build it out the way we want it built out then they'll build the [30:28] system for the ks Etc but we have to buy the ks to put in but the interior spaces will come [30:34] delivered to our specifications correct or floor plan why then and then they [30:40] will roll that into the annual lease or monthly lease or whatever whatever the [30:46] payment is that point out the um so whenever we have this [30:54] conversation like we have the answers to the questions we just got to figure out cuz [31:02] that is very helpful to understand if it's Art Center where here's what it covers right um the other thing [31:10] that I I'm not sure how you tee this up but [31:17] this is just another example of how as a business leader I I don't know [31:26] what decisions you're asking me to make what criteria I use because this kind of [31:33] comes through and I talked about it the last time and it's you know you need to vote Yes for [31:40] this this is what it is this is what it is um and i' like to have a conversation [31:47] about what my choices are and so we may not do this but um if the Aquatic Center [31:55] is what did you say how much [32:01] million it it would be great to be able to say well we can either mothball the [32:08] Aquatic Center because we don't want our levita to be at 6 million in [32:15] 2030 um or you have this bonding slide [32:21] we can bond for it or we can raise taxes those are the three things [32:29] and um I think what's good about that is having that debate or that [32:35] discussion in the public forum so we get to [32:43] demonstrate as a city and a council going through those trying to make tough [32:49] decisions and then it just adds more clarity on here's how we landed and [32:54] here's what we're doing so I would love to be able to to to have that kind of a [33:02] conversation last time you looked at budget you had a pie CH chart and I don't remember what the percentage was [33:08] but but I was using the term like a percentage of the this money is kind of [33:14] a sun cost right it is maintaining current services so it's not the whole [33:20] shebang it's just a portion of it that we would would be able to go through [33:25] some kind of a conversation like that I would I would very much say that [33:31] they're they're more critical right now for 26 and 27 but I definitely think [33:37] that you should be having those debates and those discussions as we are projecting out some of these bigger projects and and the merits of those [33:44] projects and and what that looks like and how we fund them that is the the perfect thing to be thinking about as we [33:51] kind of set ourselves up to be in a different position I think we just need your help yeah to be able to do that to [33:59] make sure we have the right information um and frame it in that way so that we can do it so I'm sorry um I [34:09] agree entirely with what James said and you know just thinking about we've had [34:15] that calendar of when things are happening and so tonight August 20th we're getting the view from staff and [34:24] then we have until the 17th of September to do Outreach with our community and I [34:31] can you know say that I'll meet everyone on Saturday at Patisserie Margo who wants to chat with me in the morning or [34:37] something like that but it doesn't really give a huge amount of time to set [34:44] up Outreach with the community so I really appreciate what James has just [34:51] said it would be helpful for me I mean I remember a conversation a while [34:58] back in the community about delayed maintenance and it was a big deal and I [35:03] don't hear so much about that anymore but I think we're making some huge strides in addressing that it would be [35:10] helpful for me to see you know as we're so let's go back before the um uh the [35:17] current like so the so what we're funding with the $2 million we have you know how much that's making a chunk [35:23] taking a chunk out of these green bars right so we've got bryars going down [35:30] because of the uh lost and every time we put $2 million [35:35] you know where where is that bar going down um that would be helpful for me and [35:41] then similarly with the bonding you say okay this would go down even more because it looks like you know some of [35:47] these expenses and then we can say oh this remaining Bond or chunk is the roof [35:53] at Edinburgh Park you know and and repairs that need to be made there and and then we we go into the conversation [36:00] about why are we doing this and stuff but to me it's very important to get rid [36:06] of some of this delayed maintenance and I feel very strongly about that so [36:13] I'd like to see what we're making progress on um because people like what [36:18] are my taxes going for it's like well your taxes are keeping the roof on the buildings and that's important because [36:25] if you don't have a roof you don't have a building right so things like that would be be helpful to see how we're impacting those green [36:36] bars and so I think that's you mentioned debt right so I think that's a good segue to this next slide here um what I [36:44] show in the first couple of bars so in 23 24 and 25 is more so of our existing [36:50] debts that we have um and so with this in the out years of 26 to 2030 is an [36:57] opportunity as I see it as these debt for the gymnasium the um fire station [37:03] the Public Works facility those in the sports dome as as these existing debts falls off we are able to bring in new [37:10] financing opportunity for these projects that needs to fund like the one listing I showed you before and so with this it [37:17] will be um for existing projects that's more than just our annual construction Lev [37:24] amounts and this is another way to look at what is our financial projection look like based off of all the Assumption we [37:31] shared with you tonight if we were to take a look at the traditional uh Levy increase as well as financing it through [37:38] bonding all those assumptions that we've made tonight utilizing them to increase our Levy and our financial bonding what [37:46] does that look like in terms of Levy impact and whatnot so um the yellow [37:51] highlighted ones those are the levy and those out years that I shared in the earlier slide with the project so what [37:57] staff is is showing you here is with the Assumption of increasing these levies as well as also bonding for those big [38:02] bigger projects in those out years um it brings on an opportunity for those out years to not see such a big Levy impact [38:10] but spreading at it across and so I also want to call out that in 25 and 26 we [38:16] attribute about 5 and a half to like 6.7% of it is to due to the public [38:21] safety expansion [38:27] so what we are our next step here is to ask for you to have that debate that um talk that discussion on to provide us uh [38:35] feedback on how we should go further to continue to refine our CIP uh recommendations to you come September [38:42] 17th when we certify the preliminary tax [38:47] levy so I've got some questions about the um Public Safety dollars so on the [38:53] previous slide um I think it would be helpful for me to I remember when we [38:58] talked about the fire station we saw slides on a number of calls so I'd like to see um those numbers again both in [39:06] police calls and in fire calls and you know kind of a breakdown of um you know [39:11] how much that represents crime how much of it represents just emergency calls [39:16] similarly fire versus um Health emergencies um we're working on that [39:23] okay good and then you know an overlay of the PO population growth in that time [39:28] period um so that would be very helpful for me um to do [39:33] that and [Music] um I think those are my [39:41] questions what is our topic for the next work [39:47] sessione the what well now that that's that's a half an [39:53] hour uh historic preservation September 17th is that's [39:59] September 17th give me a second and I'll find the answer to that because it would be [40:05] really helpful if we could have time dedicated to the CIP at the next meeting as well because then we could have more [40:11] of a dialogue we're getting a lot of information coming to us and we can as [40:18] individuals you know really reflect on it talk to community members get feedback but then this is teeing things [40:25] up for all of us to have a conversation on the 17th of September in council [40:30] chambers and I think it would be better if we could have an opportunity to talk [40:36] again about it in the work session [40:41] context I do have the answer to that so on the third work session there's a [40:46] close session with Joe Flynn then we have um the HPC at 5:30 at 6 we've got [40:54] Park and the Art Center so it's a pretty full um work session there but we can [41:01] let we'll look at it and see if we can figure out a time to discuss more in between now and and it is just a [41:07] preliminary Levy we still technically have until December to be able to finalize this so there it gives us some [41:13] capacity to be able to maybe do some more research and have some further discussions if there's areas you guys want us to look into [41:22] okay yeah I think it's obviously requires more time you just handle this this 11 page document and I guess it was [41:28] part of the other material that we had but like for 2025 uh it seems to me that it would be [41:36] good for council members to have a chance to go through what's proposed for expenditure next year because first of [41:42] all we're looking at at least we projected in 2023 that we'd have a [41:48] 13.14% projected increase in the levy [41:53] um how that would translate into taxes remains uncertain but I see from the [41:59] charts here that 5.46% of that is our increased Public Safety uh commitment [42:05] which is fine but uh when you get to The Debt Service Levy total that we talked [42:10] about there's $2 million in there that is increasing from 24 to 25 I think you [42:16] said B because of the new fire station number two and the [42:22] ongoing that load that we have there the payments on the bond so I mean that's [42:27] one thing if you think about I think our latest data was that every percent of [42:33] General ly equals about $400,000 so there's 5% in that $2 [42:38] million spread from what we have in 23 to or 24 to 25 might there be some way to find that [42:45] 2 million somewhere else and reduce uh other expenditure somewhere so [42:52] that we don't have to absorb I mean that would take us down into the 8% range you [42:58] know so are there things that could be [43:03] delayed uh that we might otherwise take on because of this significant jump that we have in debt loan from one year to [43:10] the next I'm assuming that it's going to jump again you know [43:18] um but we got a little bit more of a a soft [43:23] transition taxpayers too and so to me it's so require you know us us going through [43:31] me going through these uh projects by funding source and think [43:37] about where we might delay some things or otherwise find 2 million bucks I mean [43:43] that's that's an important distinction um because when you're looking at this document this has all of our Capital [43:50] spending in it regardless of fund so it uh what we showed on what we showed you [43:57] on the PowerPoint is specifically around kind of the general fund Levy based [44:02] that's not all of what you're going to see here so if you look through here this some of this has Revenue side to [44:09] it water business or the park the cable Peg fees there's 300,000 if you why [44:16] can't we put the 300,000 into the general fund and buy the levy down a little bit we can't because right [44:22] there's federal law that says how we can spend that money and you're going to run into that all in all kinds of places in [44:28] this document well maybe that's something for staff to do is to designate what is what's in this Project [44:35] funding list that's that's subject to the general Lev that's why we showed [44:41] that's why we showed it the way we did on the detail PowerPoint the Mr Mayor if you look at the end of page one where it [44:48] says construction fund CIP Levy onto page two those would be the projects [44:53] that um I would recommend that you look at as the ones that say con construction um construction fund CIP yeah CIP Levy [45:01] and Equipment F Levy Yeah by category mhm that's where yeah [45:11] y so I wasn't sure I think maybe you just answered [45:18] this so I got confused on you know the um history slide mhm but [45:28] you show the 2 million and then I was assuming that that 2 million was the [45:35] same construction fund CIP Levy slide for 2025 it is it is it is okay okay we just [45:45] removed remember I mentioned we just removed 100,000 of it cuz we saw that that was the comp plan but then when you [45:52] ask the question so then you're asking us [45:57] Loosely what projects do we do which ones don't we do we talked about on here You' just [46:05] given us the construction ones that make up to 2 million [46:11] mhm and so like I assume then you got the bonding ones so we talked about the [46:16] Aquatic Center is that in [46:21] here is that go to the [46:27] yeah that one of those few were there ohoud this one I'm keep going back I'm [46:32] going to go to this one yes so the Aquatic Center one that one is baked [46:39] Into The Debt Service Levy lines for de service cuz it's one of those projects [46:45] that we are proposing that it's too big to fend it through the CIP Levy which just one thinking no bond again mhm [46:53] okay so we broke it up over a course of a number of years in order to make it [46:59] more sizable because it would have taken all of your construction fund Levy yeah [47:05] okay regardless of whether it's us or a resident when you get to page 11 on the [47:11] grand total of 61 and5 million it would be good I think if you had a little [47:16] summary of what percentage of that or what amount has its own independent funding source outside of the Le that [47:25] would that that would be helping people bre easier it really would yeah and then [47:33] and then we look at what projects have the levy as our funding source and then [47:38] we can we can concentrate on those to see yeah V them into 2025 or can you can [47:46] you delay this the James's Point that's the five y with some of these [47:54] things I would say to reiterate what Ari said mayor that the construction fund [48:00] listing on page two through Page Three where it shows the top half where it [48:06] starts on page one the construction fund CIP Levy and the construction fund equipment Levy those are solely driven [48:13] by Levy dollars So yeah so the first two Mark I [48:19] marked the construction fund CIP Levy at the bottom of page one y then I should Mark the we should all Mark the [48:25] construction fund equipment levy on bottom H2 and that's where it ends yes [48:31] everything else has its own independent funding s special assessments Municipal state aid utilities [48:42] Etc uh the Woodale Bridge is a historic [48:47] Grant it's not it is it's on page three I'm sorry [48:53] I'm looking at there's the Woodale Avenue Bridge but on page one the bridge [49:00] maintenance under the biggest Game Changer in all of [49:08] this is um what happens with local option sales tax at the state [49:14] legislature if we have the opportunity to um be able just to spend what we have [49:21] already authorized to be collected uh it would make it would make [49:27] almost all these large Park and wreck projects possible [49:34] immediately so going to the legislature that until [49:41] May some year yeah that would be another really good slide though to say what [49:48] parks and W need because we had the previous conversation earlier this year about um alternative funding sources for [49:55] that um would be good just to remind people like this is what what we need [50:02] Carol's on a good track there to to to do have a slide or something that shows what we're asking [50:08] for in the legisl in terms of money for park and rec projects what we have asked [50:15] or what we would what we will ask right in this legislative session what our [50:21] bonding requests are going to be and the consequence of having those bonding requests approved [50:27] I think just also the gross number on the parks would [50:33] be you have the current revenue streams whatever those are those are proposed [50:40] right mut show both of those I think that makes [50:46] sense so the the good news is though with the strategies is there's good news I I mean [50:54] I think you guys you you guys said wanted to make an investment in public safety and you did that right and that [51:00] we're building a beautiful building and we've got plans in order to be able to staff that building and to to serve and [51:08] service levels on that side but I also think we have some strategy here that we can talk about but longterm maybe puts [51:14] us in a different spot so that you guys have a lot more flexibility in how you go about these projects and so I think [51:20] that that's a good thing that we can kind of see the light at the end of the tunnel if we follow through and [51:27] um it's not a bad thing to to have some choices you guys get to make and that's that's the tough part is you guys have [51:34] some tough choices to make but got all sorts of strategies to help you guys in whatever you need in order to do it [51:39] right one thing though the police station I just they are so crowded they don't have a [51:47] particularly inspirational place for working out I mean there's so many things where is that in this document [51:56] yes so if you look at the city in 2028 we have this phase one of City Hall PD [52:02] Improvement so that will be kind of what where we are doing some of the design stuff figuring that out and then that [52:09] would be the phase one and then later on in the projected outs would be kind of a phase two of that project so we haven't [52:14] exactly sculped out what everything looks like yet but our thought process with fire station number three and um [52:21] City Hall Police Department that type of stuff that we're able to kind of start PEC mealing that together okay cuz that [52:27] that is something I really am concerned about um I just hate thinking of how [52:32] squished they are you say what thinking of how [52:38] squished they are and they have these curved brick walls that you can't really do anything which were so trendy when it [52:46] was built but yet [52:53] okay know one thing I get a call on is just kind of PIV a little bit but I've [53:00] got several calls on this issue is 70% of our budget is [53:07] Labor uh and though we just talked about hiring 15 more people um how how much of [53:13] a labor force do we need and shouldn't that be something that we should talk to our residents [53:20] about because our population of employees has grown significantly over the past decade [53:27] and and it kind of BS the question I know we've we've agreed to the [53:33] hiring and some of these areas are are new areas like we get a sustainability coordinator we used never used to have [53:39] that kind of a person person that's involved in uh human rights in relations [53:45] work doing all that work all those things that are important that things that change over time but are other jobs [53:51] that have changed over time that are are not so important anymore well this could [53:56] potentially affect employees I think with 70% of our budget being people I think we got an obligation to look at [54:03] how do we stack up with other cities of a comparable size not necessarily just Minnesota but cities that uh were there [54:12] like us there's a high level of service demanded from the people that live there [54:18] and what does it take to run those cities in terms of personnel you know years ago I remember we were we were [54:24] kind of low in terms of number of people we had we were really efficient in terms of the number of people we had hired [54:30] that were that were running the city basically um and maybe we still are I [54:35] just don't know that but I haven't seen that data for a while how we compare [54:40] total employee count by Department with with other cities that are comparable to [54:45] us or that are like us and I think you were kind of [54:52] there um when we you did and I can't remember when we did this but you did a view of services right service levels [55:01] and you overly labor and other costs to do that [55:07] um like that might be a good way to do it I cuz I think we should drive [55:13] everything back to here's what you're getting for this [55:18] and if we think it's too much we this is hypothetical we could say you know what [55:26] you don't have to shovel the snow on the streets as often as you do now that's one thing that everybody loves and so [55:34] here's what that costs right so that would never be the case but the point is being able to tee up so there's Clarity [55:41] around this is what that cost and you can have that that conversation you don't te it up that way it's all kind of [55:47] just hidden in the numbers so that was one way I think you it you made you made a St earlier about [55:58] we wanted a better Public Safety uh we wanted some Public Safety improvements [56:03] well it wasn't it wasn't us it's our residents in our town that are asking to [56:09] make sure that we keep them as safe as possible that we deliver Emergency Medical Services as fast as we can and [56:17] so in response to reacting to those those needs of our residents we told you [56:22] yeah okay H police people let's build a new fire station gets Emergency Medical Services people there faster that's just [56:29] right in line with what chames talking about think so that people see that you know if you demand high quality service [56:35] there's there's a corresponding price for that service and people have generally been willing to pay it any you [56:41] know I think about when in the past when we've been asked to go to henan County to do dispatching people said no way uh [56:48] to do henan County emergency medical they say no way we want our own emergency medical system here because we [56:55] got the highest save rate you know United States we we we're willing to pay for that [57:00] so uh it's just I think a matter of being able to thoroughly explain all of these [57:07] things through the your wise system like your wi system uh to people and uh we'll [57:14] figure out what what direction and to the extent that it's [57:21] significant I don't know looking at the budget but I remember last year looking for [57:26] of it um so we're buying a lot of software and paying for a lot of software paying for people to manage the [57:33] software that the price of doing business in 2024 means being electronic [57:39] right and I think that that's something I'd like to understand as well so you know our tech tech spending our [57:50] Tech last a presentation on AI being used PL [57:56] I think they cut the report time down from [58:02] 5 to days to 3 [58:10] hours and the cost associated with it right so you used to be able to purchase you know a Microsoft suite and you'd [58:16] have it for several years and you'd own it and you pay for it up front and now it's an annual subscription so a lot of [58:22] the modules of how how we pay for it have really transitioned and changed and [58:27] it's driven up it's driving up costs yeah so I'd like to see that [58:42] too is there any project that you were hoping to see on on our list that you [58:50] didn't see there [58:56] let's go all the way back to 2526 right [59:04] here I think we've all been at least I have been so grateful that our taxpayers [59:09] said yeah you can use first the legislature said go ahead and ask your taxpayers if you can impose a sales tax [59:16] of half cent on folks for 19 years to do all these things in your town that has a regional [59:22] implication and to me it's just a wonderful thing that we're able to get [59:27] all this stuff done basically at Half Price yeah because non-residents are paying half the [59:33] sales these projects that are in our town being used regionally but in our [59:38] town so I don't know what to say would ask me what what else is on your wish [59:43] list so I'm sorry go ahead there are two things that weren't on here that are [59:50] always in the back of my mind and that is um the Brar Clubhouse mhm um it's a [59:58] mess um it's but very expensive to replace and the other is we had talked [1:00:04] about using the old art center as maybe a facility um for entertaining you know [1:00:11] family gatherings or something like that those were neither one of those things were on here I don't know what the need [1:00:17] is so I'm not saying it should be on here but those are things that we've talked about [1:00:26] well can ask Curry about the timing of the Brar study because they've going through that facility study now okay uh [1:00:32] I believe it's actually in the CIP it's just currently listed as unfunded think we have a lot more work to do on that about what that looks like and what are [1:00:39] some options to pay for that piece that it is and then the existing Art Center [1:00:45] we were hoping to address through the U Master planning of rosin Park okay so is this where the would it be in [1:00:55] in this document that Brar unfunded should have been no I don't think we [1:01:01] included unfund we we we we didn't put the unfunded projects in here okay okay [1:01:08] all right ideally that might be a great project for lost if we are able to to [1:01:14] use that um but if that is something you want to see what you know in the same way we put Edinburgh in there for we [1:01:21] could we could do something like that to be able to show you what the impact of doing a project like that that would be [1:01:26] and amortise it over time to I I think that's something that I would like to hear from the community you know the [1:01:32] need to have a gathering space because you know that that's something that used [1:01:38] to come up occasionally I haven't heard it for a long time so you know I I I'm not recommending putting in there but I [1:01:44] did notice its absence this is the art center ex either at the Art Center or at [1:01:50] Brar CU you know you've got a meeting space there and there's a restaurant there but it's not something where I [1:01:56] would hold a wedding but the minona community center is gorgeous and I would [1:02:01] be happy to have a fancy event there so but you know I'm not a big spender and [1:02:07] that kind of thing I don't have an annual Gayla both things were actively working on or one we're working on and [1:02:13] one we hope to work on the master [1:02:18] plan doing this for a while I see that who Park shelter building rep place on 900,000 I can't help but think about [1:02:26] the donor we had about 10 years ago wanted to give us a half a million dollars to build it it wasn't approved [1:02:32] in the city council needed a for right [1:02:39] right and then that money ended up going to Eden Prairie [1:02:45] yeah I do want to say Rosland Park master plan is in here we have is slated under local auction sales tax as a [1:02:53] placeholder but of course like Scott said this will need to have we will need to V that through legislative okay [1:02:59] action thank you that's helpful it would be helpful to know when the equipment went in that Alden part and just um it's [1:03:08] I'm looking at it now and it looks kind of older than what we see in other parks and I feel like that part [1:03:14] ofina kind of gets ignored um I don't know what we could do for [1:03:22] alen Park we'll take a look at that okay Derek is equipment getting better and [1:03:28] better so we can extend the life and you talking about Park equipment you [1:03:34] know any kind of equipment that we're buying you know that we we use that test that mechanism I mean you always give it [1:03:40] it's time to replace this pickup truck because it scores X right and and and we [1:03:46] we say once it's over X it should be replaced well can we get more can we is there a [1:03:54] reason to try to get more life out equipment that doesn't get to be too cost prohibitive and send us backwards I [1:04:01] would say lifespans haven't really uh extended they probably have shrunk in most equipment that's just manufacturing [1:04:07] process types of things um but efficiencies have improved right so in the past a furnace might run at 80% [1:04:14] efficiency and now you can get them up to 98% efficiency so some of the technologies that we're uh spending uh [1:04:20] money on and putting in our buildings are lowering our energy costs and some of the other Footprints so [1:04:26] um and they all come with their own you know tradeoffs right so some of these pieces of equipment um might have a [1:04:31] shorter lifespan because of that or they might have to run it at a harder frequency uh I always go back and think [1:04:37] of you know you go into a house in you know the Morningside neighborhood or somewhere in South Minneapolis and they have the old octopus boiler that was put [1:04:44] in the 1910 right and it's solid as a rock the engineering is yeah they're really super simple and they're still [1:04:50] running right and then you hear people that replace the furnaces every 5 years 10 years it's just that's the the age [1:04:56] that we live in right now un me to think immediately about at our house we thought well maybe we should get new washer and dryer we went over to look [1:05:03] and the guy says well what do you have now we got these old May tag Mechanicals he said don't even think about it which [1:05:09] was kind of counterintuitive for a sale for somebody said those things then they have run forever [1:05:15] so equipment is more long lived yeah so I think that's that's one of the biggest [1:05:20] challenges we try and weigh those task those risks off and then I also say that you know when we are making improvements [1:05:26] to buildings one of the things that we work with is the sustainability manager um Marissa be and we really look at how [1:05:33] do we make improvements you know the like for like versus the higher efficiency model and we're able to get [1:05:38] really creative with some funding sources when we're able to improve those efficiencies in some of those buildings I didn't have a a project to [1:05:46] add my ask is that when we have that conversation you have it in in a [1:05:52] constrained way so we shouldn't just [1:05:58] add you say all the part yeah and then yours was M was the um Brar Clubhouse event [1:06:07] event space like we shouldn't just add those two things and so a constrained [1:06:13] conversation could be well we only have if we were trying to do it in 2025 we only have $1.9 million all right that's [1:06:20] going to cost us whatever 3 million then what has to come off this list [1:06:26] very simplistic way of having the constraints but we have to frame it that [1:06:32] way so that we're we're having a conversation about puts intake and I know R you're going to say well you [1:06:39] could forecast that which would be totally fine to say well maybe if that's something we might want to do let's [1:06:45] throw it in 20 35 35 right that's totally fine too [1:06:52] yeah that's kind of where I was headed yeah yeah it it would be helpful though [1:06:57] just to see the um projects that did not make the list because um you know just [1:07:05] to know and be aware of what is not being funded I think because if we're really going to have [1:07:12] a comprehensive robust conversation we need that [1:07:17] information so to that extent the the report we got last two years ago the CIP [1:07:24] has the unfunded things so that's a document that exists right now okay um I'm look we changed at all yeah there's [1:07:33] there's probably more differents to it since then be yeah there'll be some of the same some are different we do have [1:07:39] it we just pulled it off CU we didn't want you to turn to paid the way that this this um sheet shows it adds [1:07:46] everything up including the unfunded so when instead of you looking at 61 you'd be looking at 139 right and so we were [1:07:53] trying to we'll we'll just give us a little bit of time to figure out how to present it to you but we'll we can send [1:07:59] that out um so that you guys all have access to the unfunded stuff as [1:08:04] well one other thing that I just wanted to to note here um as you're looking at [1:08:10] the construction fund and the CIP Lobby um and and thinking about these projects [1:08:15] is one thing asset preservation funding that's on here which is kind of a big [1:08:20] chunk that we have every single year um that's kind that's a pretty important [1:08:26] chunk of money that it's kind of our contingency of what might break um in the interim so at least right now we [1:08:34] don't have um a very big construction fund that's one we want to try to preserve cuz we might not know exactly [1:08:40] what those that money is going to go towards but it's going to probably go towards something um so just as you're [1:08:46] if you see that and you're like what it does that mean that's kind of um that's the um Derek coming and hey the [1:08:54] something stopped working at edin bur and we need to fix it fund so definely reative could you go back to [1:09:01] the all the way back to our 2526 the other number like that I want to point out is annual deferred [1:09:07] retaining wall Replacements a couple of years ago the courts uh changed the way [1:09:13] that cities and residents interact around uh retaining walls that are in the public RightWay uh before that Court [1:09:21] decision uh the city could require homeowners to change or to fix a broken [1:09:26] retaining wall or something dangerous and they had to pay for it after that decision it shifted the burden of [1:09:32] payment to the city so cities all over Minnesota have to begin to allocate at [1:09:38] least some money for uh wall we don't know which walls going to collapse um [1:09:43] but we know that one or more will every year we have to be able to take that [1:09:50] on tonight we yeah we do yeah 191,000 I looked at it online I'm like [1:09:59] wow well I don't I think everybody here was interested in maintaining what we home yeah so we don't get into a mess on [1:10:13] the we can typically do that I like the idea of building on [1:10:19] James's idea how do we how do we show folks in a [1:10:25] clear way what they're getting for their money you the delivery of these quality [1:10:31] services that are delivered that they've asked for the correlation [1:10:38] [Music] [1:10:44] between building building that story I guess and I think there's a good story there mhm just don't know [1:10:58] we can work on that okay so that's and that's all that's all we've got for you tonight all [1:11:04] right that's [1:11:09] plenty and or if you call Doug C and see if you'll still build that building for [1:11:15] you know I have called him since I moved save 900,000 can reduce the [1:11:27] we used that money that the din didn't take any Prairie to build uh the starring Lake uh you built the telescope [1:11:35] is the observatory Observatory was a Beau it's a beautiful it is [1:11:43] yeah was a resident thank you yeah yeah you got be thinking about something [1:11:48] else for do we have do we have time for we have room for pickle ball courts over there where Le Ridge leis Park not if [1:11:58] the tennis players anything to say about it want that not over there where the tennis courts are but some other place [1:12:04] how about I mean is the Bandy rank pretty important we're looking add two at and [1:12:11] then just to the east we'll have [1:12:16] eight that's really interested in pickleball also put up a bur building [1:12:22] have we concluded whatever you see all of our all of our Tennis Courts [1:12:28] are there okay we stand a j