all right we are ready to go welcome everybody to the July 24th man Summer's almost over huh 20 2024 City viina Planning Commission meeting on behalf of the rest of the plan commission uh we're excited you're here whether in person or tuning in remotely say it every time but your curiosity your participation and your feedback is vital to this process as we navigate change together here in Idina specifically regarding the ways in which we'd like to use our land so we have one public hearing on the agenda tonight a site plan review and Zing ordinance Amendment 7200 France Avenue I'll get into the specifics on what to expect when we get to that portion later you heard some details as we first began uh but you can hold tight no problem uh for those who are new give you a rundown of what to expect tonight we'll start with a call to order then roll call followed that by an approval of tonight's meeting agenda followed by the previous meeting minutes we will then have the community comment period as noted this is your chance for those who are here in person to speak about a matter not on tonight's agenda after that we have the public hearing which is the portion of the meeting where you have the chance to speak about that matter on tonight's agenda and then we have one report and recommendation after that and that is one of our commission uh work plan items areas of potential change we have commissioner Miranda who will present on that uh that'll give you a flavor of kind of what we are up to behind the scenes and tonight's meeting is uh when we kind of react and apply the code after that we have chair member comments followed by staff comments and then adjournment uh it's important to know that any and all feedback makes its way to us and we consider it as we make recommendations for approval or denial tonight uh we do so most prominently through our engagement website ww. better together.org if you're unfamiliar with that that is the best catchall for any potential and current development that may or may not be happening around your neighborhood uh there are new features on that as of you know the last year including kind of a map that has a development tracker so you can better see what's closer to home without further ado will get into the meeting thank you for being here call to order and then roll call commissioner El here commissioner Miranda here commissioner Smith here commissioner Schultz here commissioner day here commissioner Borstein here commissioner phelp here commissioner hanaman here chair Bennett here thank you next we have the approval of tonight's meeting agenda make a motion to approve tonight's agenda second second I'd like to amend the agenda okay so I'd like to postpone postpone the report and recommendation on areas of potential change until the next till the next meeting because we had a lot of progress today the past 24 hours but uh that we needed to have that was still not finished so I think it'd be better to have it at the next meeting are you sure yep okay great yeah uh so with that proposed amendment do we have uh a new second well do we need a new Motion in a new second or did he motion in I second well I guess it'd be up to the person who made the motion do you accept that Amendment I'd accept that so new second new SEC all right all those in favor say I so moved great all right approval of previous meeting minutes on July 10th any proposed revisions or is there a motion motion to approve the minutes from July 10th second all those in favor say I I so moved all right next as I mentioned we have the community comment period of the agenda this is your chance for any of you residents who are here in person to speak about a matter not on tonight's agenda similar to the public hearing you have three minutes to do so come up to either Podium State your full name address um and when the light turns green you have three minutes when it turns Amber you have 30 seconds left and when it's read your time's up and we'll get out the hook and pull you off no just kidding we'll ask you to wrap up anyone here for Community comment period yes we got someone thank you my pleasure my name is John Carlson despite the advertising on my shirt I am a resident of the Dina my grandchildren play baseball in Bloomington just a couple quick comments that i' want to make first of all in the sunar two weeks ago a lady and I can't remember her name wrote an article about pretty much the Macy site and what the comment really was in the article is that it lacked at a wow factor and I think that's important to keep in mind on every project that hea looks at whether it's real estate or roadway or Parks or whatever it is there should be a wow factor in there that separates Edina from the other communities around us the second item that I want to comment on we'll have to wait until I can remember it uh well I I apologize I am having a memory lapse here so I will end my time early thank you thank you very much Mr Carlson all right we got another thank you hi David Frankl 4510 lak View Drive uh I'm just wondering uh you know Civ hired a former Idina city council person for $80,000 to give recommendations on a pedestrian bridge over France Avenue between two sites one being the Macy's site uh none of the renderings for that site showed any pedestrian bridge and I'm wondering the developer mentioned in a presentation that they were making accommodations for this bridge period accommodations not a rendering uh as you may be aware pedestrian Bridges if you look at the one over Highway 100 on the 9M Creek Trail uh from in. standards has to be 19 ft tall and has to have no more than a 5% grade on each side's ramp you do some simple math has a long ramp and I'm not sure where this would fit using my high level looking at the current renderings where this would fit so I'm wondering why nobody asked that question nobody seems to ask Ada questions nobody asked it when they put up the bridge over the railroad tracks a Grand View and now that's in an investigation by the US Department of Justice is this bridge heading in the same direction if it's built I don't know if the city can afford two of those investigations the other thing is uh these meetings and studies seem to think Crossing France Avenue via bicycle pedestrians dangerous well I crossed it a lot and roads by bicycle or pedestrian inherently are dangerous but I've never had a close call on that road as opposed to many other close calls I've held elsewhere but my point is there are alternatives to spending three to5 $10 million on a bridge if you go over to City of Minneapolis at Barry Parkway and U um Richfield Road City of Minneapolis implemented a couple years ago a four-way stop for pedestrians and bikers it works simple relatively inexpensive the infrastructure is already there it's a matter of implementing some software so I would advise people the city of Ed to look at that Idina has to get out of the mentality of not invented here if we didn't think of it it's not any good City Minneapolis does a lot of innovative things and it doesn't involve Building Bridges everywhere thank you thank you for the comments we have a request Barry and and Richfield Road would you like to come yeah come finish we'll give you another minute best the first item that I brought up was to talk about the wall wall f factor and it's kind of hard to say what is the wall Factor you know that's in the beholder eyes it's in the developer eyes but sometimes it's clearly visible and when my wife Sandy and I are traveling around the Twin Cities metropolitan area we quite often go through Yetta and Y Zetta has the wall Factor thank you all right thank you and that article was discussed during some of our comments after the last meeting um just a reminder to us all to to hold hold projects and our future to a high standard as you mentioned uh Mr Frankle you mentioned the uh the percent grade for that potential Bridge we had a sketch plan for that that was it it wasn't televised it was recorded in the community room and we did bring that up um there was a couple options of a pretty SECU route or starting the bridge or starting The Descent quite a bit farther away but it was discuss that they would have enough space but that was a concern of how long it would take to get down at a 5% grade so there there's barely enough math to make it work but uh we haven't seen many more details as you mentioned either unless I'm missing something all right thank you for those examples it's a good reminder don't need to reinvent or invent the wheel anyone else here for a community comment all right let's move right into the public hearing so what do expect for the public hearing uh staff puts together a report based off of what the applicant proposes uh they consolidate that into a presentation which we're about to see by director Teague we will then have an exchange the Planning Commission and staff after that we allow the developer applicant to provide their own presentation we'll have a similar uh back and forth after that point we'll open it up to the public hearing and that's your chance as a community member to speak about this matter whether in person or tuning in remotely uh I'll give you some instructions to get in the queue to do so after after the public hearing closes we bring it back to the commission we deliberate and then we make a recommendation for approval or denial uh as far as the instructions so if you are tuning in remotely if you want to get ready to speak it it might be in a while but at least you can be ready uh please call 312 535 8110 enter access code 26 32205 8054 the password is 5454 and then when you'd like to speak press star three please please State your full name and address before speaking I will get back to that and remind you of those details when we open the public hearing uh but now you can be prepared and with that Take it Away director Teague thank you thank you chair members of the commission this is a site that well maybe the more veteran members of the commission have been familiar with this over the years dating back to 2018 I think when Redevelopment was first considered on the site so it's located in the greater Southdale District on the west side of France it's guided in our comprehensive plan for office and residential use so it's this light pink area west of France uh it was also within the comprehensive plan the area west of France is is within the Southdale um the Southdale District plan defined as a transition zone transitioning from our greater density um development areas within France and York as the area as it transitions into the low density uh developments to the West mainly single family homes so that was used as we did some rezoning and reg in of the site back to go back to 2019 what was approved for this site was a couple of six story apartment buildings there was 30,000 square ft of retail and some Town Homes along the west side the very west side of the property that development never it never took shape that they didn't do any of that development so the current property owner came in couple of years ago to it and that development was rezoned to PUD the Pud 16 Zone that exists on the site today current property owner came in and revised that PUD for a new plan so that's the current zoning that's on the site today and I'll I'll I'll show that here in a minute so currently the site sits vacant the there were previously Office Buildings on both the 7200 and 7250 site so so what was approved last year was an ordinance amendment to that PUD 16 and there was a final site plan approval given for the South property that was to be a 124,000 ft office building that has not been constructed and the overall development plan showed this future development um uses that were talked about in the traffic study was based on an apartment building 150 unit apartment there was also talk of a Hospitality or a hotel on that site so this is a look at the overall development plan that was approved for the site so the existing zoning here's that office building that's not yet been constructed and this was a rendering that showed kind of the the outline of a future building on that site so again this is the overall site plan that was approved the intention was with this first phase the office building all of the the Landscaping the north south uh Connector Road the sidewalks that was all to be constructed as part of that first phase so what's before you this evening is a proposal for I should back up you may recall I believe it was last year the property owner came in with a sketch plan to consider a hotel on that site wasn't very well received in the neighborhood got mixed um reviews at Planning Commission and city council they've abandoned that idea and their proposing uh housing on the site so no formal application came through uh with the hotel so what's proposed this evening is 153 unit um apartment one of the parameters that was established within the existing PUD was a height limitation of 72 ft and they do intend to to meet that requirement they also considered or part of that original um overall development plan contemplated 10,000 square ft of retail within this Phase 2 project they've removed that from The Proposal so there's no retail proposed um concerns have been raised from residents in regard to traffic um in in in taking out the those uh that retail space Also reduces the the need for parking so that's not part of this request so I'm going to just quickly move through some renderings and the development the developer application will go into this in more detail so this is a look at that Wetland area that's on the west side so we're looking from the single family homes and duplexes that are located to the West you see the building would be five stories and then step back at the top this is that east west pedestrian connector through the site again a rendering from 72nd so this uh the specific request this evening is for a site plan review and an ordinance amendment to revise that PUD 16 that would incorporate a final site plan for phase two and also as part of that Amendment they're requesting a reduction in the first floor ceiling height from 16 feet to 14 feet the 16 ft that was when we were they were contemplating commercial so because of the change to residential they'd like to reduce that to 14 and it also helps them maintain that 72t uh height maximum so just quick review of the site plan again here's that North South Street with The Pedestrian sidewalks on both sides access into the building would be off 72 here and another access right here this access point would be the Lo the um new Resident move in or move out so a truck would move in here and all of the the move in would take place inside the building uh a traffic and parking study was done as part of that original request a couple of years ago stantech did a a review memo that's included in your packet to take a look at the current proposal they conclude that there is adequate parking uh for the project and the existing roadways can support um this phase two uh Ed terhar was the consultant that did that he's on the call with us this evening should you have any questions in that regard um one thing I want to mention and you may recall with that with the previous approval for the site that the first level of underground parking is for the office to the South so they they've added that parking in um and it it's factored into the parking calculations um Again full Landscaping that was all it's basically the same from the overall development plan based on the perimeter of the site they need 55 overstory trees they're over 100 here they are preserving some of the existing trees along the west Line West lot line that helps provide some of that landscaping and screening to the houses to the west and the applicant has I believe has a materials Board and they'll go through the building materials as part of their presentation the project is code compliant in terms of setback regulations to the Pud 16 standards with the exception of that first floor uh ceiling height so the primary issue is the the site plan consistent with the overall development plan and is the ordinance Amendment reasonable specifically in regard to that reduction in the first floor ceiling height so just to touch on our pyramid of discretion I didn't include it in the pack at this time but just as a refresher with the ordinance Amendment the city has discretion to say yes or no much more discretion with the site plan review for phase two which is really where we are this evening is up in in the the least amount of discretion that the city has so staff believes that again that is consistent with the overall development plan um some of the findings that we've included um the 72t height restriction is met the 50 units um 153 units with no retail generates less traffic and less parking needed um the existing roadways again and parking will support the project while this isn't a vertical mixed use it it is a mixed use project with the two uses of the two sites um office and residential is consistent with the comprehensive plan 19% of the site within the site uh would be this area here and the north south street um it's all dedicated for the public and if you were to include the easements that would be established along the fronts of the building it's 38% of the total land area that's dedicated for public public use and we believe that that first floor height is uh reasonable it's similar to recent projects that have been approved the Meson green across the street is a 14 foot first floor um ceiling height and the Eden 100 on the other side of of 100 that was approved that was 13 ft so to conclude I want to touch on how this project potentially can connect to the Macy's site so this was we've hired lhb to take a look at um how that how that could be accomplished they're focusing right now on an underpass and not so much a bridge over so and the idea and again these are just rough nothing finalized a lot of negotiation still needs to take place with the county but they do seem open to this idea part of the what would be desirable is to have an opening similar to The Underpass over by the YMCA on York to provide some light into that area so this is just a very rough um rendering of what that might look like so you can see the opening in the middle the length here is still up to negotiation again of course with the county but this um that eastwest pedestrian connection um through this site would tie into the Macy site on the other side so both sites would be graded to accommodate uh that potential future use so with that again staff is recommending approval subject to the findings and conditions that are outlined in your staff report and with that I can stand for questions thank you for standing Carri anyone questions all right commissioner day can we touch on the timeline a little bit just CU I'm a little hazy on all the different steps that have gone on here right so I tried to follow along 65 66 on the packet um September 2022 Planning Commission approved what exactly is that the hotel because I don't remember being part of that discussion no no that was the um the preliminary rezoning and the overall site plan with the um basically I what what the Planning Commission reviewed was this proposal here and so that received preliminary approval from the city council they then came back in 2023 to obtain their final approvals final approvals don't come before the Planning Commission you just get the the one shot like like this evening um so that was when they received their final approvals was 2013 2023 2023 that was so that was so that was January of 2023 when they submitted the revised plans so according to the packet so it's January 10th 2023 submitted revised plans and then on on February 7th that's when the city council granted final approval yes okay and was the hotel part of that final right so it was just but I see I remember reviewing the hotel and I'm missing that in the timeline so that's why I'm trying to figure out when that dropped when residential was added with 10,000 ft of commercial and then when that has dropped right that sequence of events yeah so when they obtained those approvals um in early 2023 this was what was considered it was the potential for housing but not detailed so it was after that they then came in I don't have the exact date I can I can look it up for us uh but that's when the hotel was considered because the traffic study that was done as part of that first phase in the overall development didn't include a hotel that was considered um the housing was factored in um so they were just wanted a sketch plan um take the temperature of the Planning Commission and Council to change the overall development plan but they decided against the hotel yeah because what I was missing here was really the the residential with the 10,000 squ feet of commercial CU I didn't remember seeing that spe specifically I remember seeing the hotel but I remember that pre component before we I guess now we're stepping back back to that and I saying well actually we're going to drop the 10,000 F the commercial right so okay good clarifications yeah commissioner Bor oh so just to clarify did the so the overall development plan was approved in 2023 that's what you were just talking about right yes yeah but the Planning Commission review was 2022 okay did the did the overall development plan contain the 10,000 ft of retail yeah again so it was just conceptual but it was contemplated in this shape with 150 units and 10,000 square ft of retail on the first floor yeah that's just what I was trying to clarify because one thing we're being asked is whether whether what's being proposed today is consistent with that overall development plan right right okay and then the other question I had was in thinking about the the tunnel or whatever whatever it's called that might go under France and connect from the Macy's site to this site can you just remind me is there yeah this was really helpful is there anything further west of the site we're talking about today that that you know this connector would further Connect into like some other system or something like that or or would this tunnel really just be a way to connect the site would the starting point basically be like for someone who wanted to walk the site we're talking about today allowing them to get into the Macy's site and then to get into Centennial EGS correct there is the regional bike trail along Gallagher okay so this might be a some might choose to okay come up here and then cross France that way rather than at the stop light here okay all right thanks and Carri right there is always the potential for the West prominade that maybe right yeah that was that's comes from the Southdale design guidelines the the desire is to have that wests side prominade um to take some of the pressure off of France Avenue the idea being that this potentially could be part of that depending on how development goes to the north and to the South yeah this it's just something important to distinguish and that's another reason why to connect to it for long term okay thanks yeah sorry and I'm I'm newer so I don't have all of the history but the other office building with the coffee shop has not been constructed but is moving forward and so we know that the landscaping and the parking and all the stuff is thank you yes yeah the ideally they'd like to start construction on that this fall the developer can confirm that as part of their construct presentation but thank you commissioner hman I said hin which is even funnier sorry so that's all the same right commissioner elire uh excuse me a couple things the 16t to 14ot first floor height does that apply to 7200 or 7250 or both uh my collection I think I even have that here I think the 7200 yeah they will have a 20 foot ceiling height on the first level on 7250 on the one the South 750 I'm sorry yes interesting okay um I'm not sure the right way to think about this tunnel maybe you can help me out because as I understand understand it it's a concept that has some support but it's not a done deal is that the way to think about it yep that's fair so if one's thinking about I mean one might think differently about certain aspects of the project we're talking about tonight if there was a tunnel versus if there wasn't a tunnel so what would your advice be on how to how to how to deal with that yeah I overall the plan still you know it meets that Vision that we have for the Southdale District of dividing properties into smaller Parcels for development and en enabling pedestrian movement in and around them so this still accomplishes that whether we cross France in this exact location or maybe somewhere else on France so it's still accomplishing those goals of movement through the site to get people through the site okay thank you one more thing um is a testament to the commitment of our volunteer Commissioners I have a question from a commissioner who is not here uh but even though she was not here she read the packet and prepared a question so I thought it only fair to share it with you it's from commissioner Padilla uh stantech did a traffic study on the property and determined there will be slightly less traffic if the I should be giving parking or traffic study questions to you rather than the applicant right yeah you can ask them and and Mr terhar can respond of the ceiling okay uh the so stantic did a traffic study on the property and determined that there will be slightly less traffic if the retail is eliminated stantech did a traffic study of the property across the street the Macy's property and determined there was adequate capacity both of these properties are at the intersection of France and Gallagher have these traffic studies been done independently of one another so that neither takes into account both properties being developed up it seems to me that taken separately these two traffic studies don't mean much if they do not consider one another I think I think I can take that one okay um stantech did not do the study for Macy's I believe that was kimley horn there was a an eaw that was done on the Macy's site so it was a little more advanced um traffic was part of that but they do take each project um within every traffic study there's a multiplier of just anticipated development of 10% um when the Macy's study was done we knew of this project so this project went into the Macy's study and was considered in addition to that 10% multiplier that they use great thank you she can follow up with you if she has followup commissioner felt I'm going to ask followup question about the bridge or tunnel as well they're considering a couple of options in this area did they consider an option from the um grocery store parking lot on 70th or down at Gallagher that Lunen VES yeah what did I say Len project went in you know cuz this study was done this past year and I'm wondering yeah that they're really just focused on because these two development projects are in play for redevelopment this is the opportunity to perhaps make that connection so whether this is the ideal spot it may or may not be um but it was something that the council was interested in just giving the development on both sides and if the timing doesn't work out um would people would I mean I think it would be a benefit to kind of look at this in other intersections as well it certainly could yes yeah and to Mr frankl's point about if it's a bridge over ramping um needs to be factored in both sites have designed their projects that could accommodate either or but yet it whether there's been specifics for the bridge over and where that ramping takes place there would have to be a further study on that but right now they're they seem to be focusing on the underpass M Miranda so this bridge tunnel thing um this is a land use issue and it's a transportation issue but as far as I know nobody from Planning Commission or Transportation Commission is involved with this in terms of the underpass planning for it yeah uh it's something that the H is is wanting to pursue um the development plans that we're looking at can accommodate either way so really the The Underpass bridge over is not necessarily in the purview of of this project just knowing that it could accommodate either right but I guess my point is that it's a I mean it's something that the Planning Commission and Transportation Commission I would think be involved in from day one perhaps if if the if the HRA directed that type of review that that could be possible in the future where it we are kind of in the beginning stages here because yeah I mean I think you know it's part of our purview um and then um can we require uh an easement to the 9 Mile Creek Trail as a condition of this approval so that it would connect uh so where are you well I mean from the TR you know from the the tunnel or Bridge or whatever it would have to go south right to connect to the trail so there would be public easements okay over this area this area and this area so that could be that could be part of that part of that easement agreement okay and then the you know on on the west side it's called the street but it's not really a street is there another name it's not an alley it's privately owned but it's we'll have Public Access so you don't really want to call it a private street but is there yeah it's not a public street they're responsible to maintain upkeep plowing right I just don't like it being called a street on these diagrams because it's not I mean if I wanted to run for city council and and stand on the curb and have a sign I probably couldn't do that there so I could probably walk through but I probably couldn't or if I wanted to protest or something so I'm concerned about the public you know public space that there's Public Access public space right term okay thank you yeah thank you director Teague for the presentation um I know within our design guidelines uh for France Avenue uh it contemplates uh you know multi-use so commercial office industrial potentially in the future and so what I'm thinking of is once this building goes in and it has a particular use and then that use could change over time and so if we want to change for example the ceiling height then that could potentially limit what could go in there in the future so I guess my questions would kind of be around the height question right and I know we've been talking about about this a little bit but I don't think we have settled but when we say that it's 14 ft is it really definition Wise from the floor to the underside of I guess the concrete slab on the ceiling so then if that's the definition then you have to accommodate for air conditioning hvx these kind of things like how would you define ceiling height yeah that's what we've been working on as part of our ordinance amendment to clearly Define that because it it's not necessarily clearly defined so that that's one of our items we can we need to we've started it we just haven't concluded it yet gotcha so if it's if that's the true definition then when you account for all the duct worked and everything and the trusses and everything then your effective use could potentially be even less feet you know it might be a you know might take three feet off so that's looking at rough 11 ft ceiling from floor to when your head hits something uh so that's just one consideration right like if you want to reduce the height then that certainly limits um what future potential uses could could could go there and just to play off of uh director uh uh commissioner Al Al Al's question right uh the 70250 building has a 20t height this one started off with a I guess it was a proof for 16 and now they want to take it down to 14 I know with the more height is usually reserved for uh like big box type spaces right you want more height in those kind of spaces uh but if we take away the big box element out of this then it's more office residential and so any any ideas why and I maybe have to go back and watch the videos but why why why do we allow the 16 foot height on this site but left it at 20 at the other side yeah it's a good question my recollection is it was more about wanting to limit the height the overall height at 72 fet reduce it from the 76 with the other building and they thought the way to accomplish that is to take four feet out of that first floor that would reduce the height down I think that was the that's the discussion that I recall Goa um slightly different question uh site plan responsibilities I think in the in the information um the city would manage I think 5 ft of plowing let's just say off a France Avenue and I think the developer would manage the rest so when we say manage the rest how do you even go through negotiating what what because there's there's 19% public and the rest of it is private right so how does the city look at what's their responsibility to manage versus what does the developers responsibility to that's all negotiated as part of the development agreements site plan agreements that that go into it so the negotiation is mainly with our public works department engineering to make sure it's clear who's respons responsible for for what okay okay um the last question I guess for me uh and this could tie into when the uh developer comes up um a lot of uh discussion with the public with Mo most likely the cornelian neighborhood um with I think it was roof access concerns about noise and I think removal of the commercial kitchen because of smells right but again if we build this site would it be you know could in the future we add those things back in so we design this building in a way that could accommodate future uses cuz again what I'm trying to think through is what else could we do right if we start constricting certain things then it limits what we could do so I'm trying to think through just um what could we add back later versus what we're stuck with once it goes up and so you know maybe not a question for you but maybe with the the uh C the developer when they come up they could probably help us think through that but that's just kind of the the the scope of how I'm thinking about this yeah I can respond um that's part of part of a PUD there's a specific plan that's tied to the site so if they're going to make a change in the use say to a hotel they need to come back and amend the Pud almost like a um it's not necessarily A rezoning but you're changing that overall development plan and changing the use so the city would have some discretion there so just to tell for this if if if the plan has no commercial kitchen today but in the future we want to put a commercial kitchen for a restaurant then they'll have to come back they would they would have to provide parking for the restaurant as well so that's going to change the the parking count um but that would be an intensification of the use and it would come back to the Planning Commission and city council gotcha all right that's it for now thank you I was just wondering what the problem with adding the two feet instead of cutting it off the first floor compared to just adding it to the top and sticking to our original for 14 or guess 16 yeah I I know they've run a lot of Alternatives where they can um take that out there's a lot of options here um maybe one for the developer to to respond to awesome thank you something that builds off of commissioner Smith's line of questioning right so in terms of coming back and making changes to the plan right so is it are we only here right now because of the variance specifically request or and if they had to just drop the retail without asking for a variance on the first floor height would we have any purview over this whatsoever would it be coming in front of us yeah you would have it would still be site plan review so it would still be Planning Commission yeah so take the the ordinance Amendment out in terms of the first floor height we'd still need to amend the ordinance just to insert the final development or the final site plan for phase two Okay so would be an ordinance Amendment um as well as a site plan review so really the request would be the same but we're just adding the approved site plan to the ordinance okay makes sense thanks all right I got a couple related but uh on on the heels of commissioner Smith's question we we did have a work session I I believe we landed on trying trying to define the height as if there's more than one story from floor to floor and at least that's how their plans show right the 14 ft is from finished floor elevation of the first floor to Second and that's pretty standard so I'd assume that's how we would do it going forward so then yes you lose that effective space in between um but that's just something is pretty consistent across the board uh secondly um regarding the site plan at what level of changes you know warrant and Trigger this coming back to us I mean as commissioner Dave was saying I mean when they came back with a sketch plan review for like a hotel which was you know a different concept and this is a different concept although it's not that different who makes a call you guys or is it partly the development team too of you know we think this is pretty in line to what was approved minus this one change so we're just going to go for the approvals like what is that process just so other people can understand too yeah so there was no site plan approval given for phase two just that overall development plan you know we had the box and they were going to do the landscaping and everything around that box but there was no site plan approval given so they would become coming back to the Planning Commission and Council for that site plan approval no matter what is proposed there yeah just I guess in reference to you know when there's a change for that phase to like what triggers or prompts you know the sketch plan process that we you know because this is different right I mean there's no retail is who makes the is that kind of Staff in line with them you know had discussion and I think we were both in agreement on the hotel that was clearly a different um use with this one we talked about it um I believe staff recommended that they come back for the sketch plan because you know the footprint got a little bit bigger and the the retails eliminated but that's not a requirement they figured because they had the overall development plan we basically had the site developed they chose not to do the another sketch plan review they could have though okay no I just think it's good for people to understand uh that's all I have for questions for you anyone else all right I guess we will welcome the development team up and uh give you a chance to give a presentation introduce yourselves tell us what we need to hear yeah uh good evening commissioner is Ted Carlson with Orion Investments along with me tonight is Bob lokin with the ESG Ari Parts with Aton Park and Drew Stafford also with Orion so behalf of our development team thank you for engaging tonight I'm going to turn it over to Bob lokan to talk about some of the highlights of the project and take you through a quick presentation and then we'll be prepared to address a bunch of the questions and comments that we heard here tonight car do you want me to run the presentation from my I can just flip through it with you thank you y good evening Commissioners and and chair um I am going to uh just flip through this pretty quickly so we can leave a lot of time for discussion um I I don't know if if you all want this to be interactive or if you want me to flip through and then we have the interaction I'd say go through it first and then uh yeah if you can do it a little more brief that'll help thanks great um a lot of this um Carrie went over but just some project overviews this is the phase two of of an approved PUD um it's largely consistent with the approved density and height um and and largely consistent with the approved use with the exception of the of the retail which has already been under discussion um one of the important things to um recognize that have advanced from the original PUD approv approval and even the hotel um sketch plan submitt is that both of those previous um iterations for 7200 anticipated some surface parking um uh the the approved PUD showed surface parking um on the West Side the hotel contemplated a um a surface turnaround which had some parking we think one of the things that we've been able to improve with this project is we've all of the parking is structured so none of it is visible um and then we've also talked about the reduced traffic demand not only from um going from the the once proposed Hotel use but also the elimination of of uh of the retail and and traffic was one of those um biggest concerns that we heard from the from the neighborhood and then we'll just go through a few renderings I thought it was nice to just look at a rendering fully on the screen we can sort of take it you can see a little bit more detail if there's questions later on I think this is a handy format to flip back to um but I think one of the things we want to highlight is that the the the massing and the articulation of the building is um meant to be clean modern um but also we need to make this feel residential and and and feel like a home so we want this to be um consistent overall with the with the office building to the South so thus the the the clean modern lines the um relatively restrained material pallet um not often in in multi family housing you can see a lot of different material changes we were very careful to um articulate this building with clear uh materials applied to certain masses and um material changes only at at changes of plane some of the things that were doing um um subtle subtle changes and massing as you can see at the top even though it is whoops I'm going to go back here to the can I point on this I'll point with a mouse this mass at the corner you can see is is set back and so there's a little bit of subtle Rhythm as you as you look along France with different heights in the building and and having a little change in height is important to to the design that's another reason why in order to keep the building within 72 feet it was helpful to to have um that extra two feet to deal with to to play a little bit with the with the top of the building and have it not be so flat the night rendering is important because you can see that um the top here which um under some lighting conditions looks like a like a normal full story is actually uh a balcony um and and it's and it is fully recessed it's an exterior space uh for those units at the top here's another view looking from the north you can see this sort of subtle articulation and height I think it's important to to provide some variety and some articulation not just have a uh flat topped building and then one of the things we worked with um very closely very um very strategically was how to knowing that that um you know Commissioners might have some disappointment at the at the lack of retail um we made a very strong effort to make this street level as engaging and as pedestrian friendly as possible and you can see um on the corner here what one of the things that we've done at the at the street level design the amenity spaces for the building the lobby uh there's a fitness space that's going to be shared by the office users as well there is no Fitness um use dedicated in that office office building it was always intended that there would be some um amenities that were shared between those buildings those amenities we've chose we've chosen to locate Orient on denila on that new East West uh Street we're putting all of our eggs in that basket to to really try to activate danila and one of the things that we've done here to make this a little more welcoming and engaging from the street is you can see there's a essentially a front porch a large front porch that that um is accessible to the public um but is also um accessible immediately from the interior amenity spaces there'll be a work from home space here and a Lobby and then um these walkup units at at street level they have recessed Terraces they can be very generous Terraces I think these are these aren't token outdoor spaces we envision these as really generous spaces true outdoor rooms and we do we do a lot of these um first floor walkup units um um in our in our developments and they're very popular with um dog owners and dog walkers who can have um very easy access to going Outdoors they don't need to get into an elevator and um try to hope that their dog makes it when they until they get out here's a view uh a closer view of that front porch you can see some just some suggestion of public art here and that large 50 foot setback we think um you know France Avenue is a is a busy street the the nice thing about this large 50 foot setback is there is a lot of room to to create a landscape buffer and we think that those um those outdoor Terraces at street level are going to be comfortable spaces um despite their proximity to France Avenue mainly because of of that that large 50ft buffer and then here's a view of um what's called denila Street and you can see that the design here contemplates an an atg grade um this this this design um does not yet anticipate the future tunnel but we have um talked with the city and their consultant about some some ways that this project could adapt to that if if that does move forward and then as we move around toward the um toward the west and look at this project from the East I'll highlight a couple of the building step backs so you can see as the building um moves um West I always have to think about east west north south is instinctual East West I have to picture a map the United States uh West you can see the building um there's a setback here the intention is that the building is a little less closer to the street as it moves toward the neighborhood and moves toward that open space in addition at the top floor there's an upper upper story step back that allows for um private unit Terraces at the top and then I think that this image is a really good image to see just how how far the building is set back from the from the rear property line it set back more than uh 200 ft and then here you can see that that um how how people will access that amenity from 72nd and here's another view looking through looking looking essentially from the uh from the West looking through that that storm water feature which will be um which is now currently a um asphalt parking lot will be quite generously landscaped and I think this is another way that we can see the the sort of u-shaped design of the building which is consistent with that hotel sketch plan proposal and I think this is a really good view to talk about um how if if there is a grade separated um a tunnel crossing under France how that might be accommodated um I'll remind the Commissioners I think a lot of you probably remember this but the the grade of this street here or this new not a street perhaps but a new access is is a full story below the elevation on France and so you can see that to make that that grade up to France we've got a grand stair here and there is a Switchback uh ramp which provides accessible uh access from from this level to the level at France if that tunnel were to be were to come to fruition um it would be essentially at this elevation of this lower Street and so it would be essentially level as it goes under France um the things that we would have to um react to obviously is we've we've taken great effort to activate this this atg grade space if all of a sudden this is lowered there would have to be some some changes some some adjustments to that so that we can um keep this activated maybe leave that slide up up and I can yeah you take work to just address some of the questions and then have a dialogue commissioner Bennett is that appropriate all right great so again thank you for hosting us tonight um I just think you know there are some new faces here and I I think a just a reminder on Orion and who we are is Drew and I are both live in Edina our kids are in public school in Edina and the projects we've developed within our community include laian at Sunnyside in France Edina Gateway at 45th in France caribu coffee at Vernon and interlockin we purchased the old Titus building now the Southdale Professional Center at 66 the New York we are responsible for 7,1 France the US Bank site and then this site so we remain fully committed and engaged to our city of which we're ingrained uh part of the fabric and we want to see great development happen so with that as we think about our sketch plan from 15 months ago go which was um very clearly defined in our PUD and our ordinance that it may be Hotel it may be multif family and our team brought forth a hotel concept and I think a combination of noise smell traffic a ballroom to host events uh potential Rooftop Bar while I may really enjoy it uh others may not especially if they're nearby was really poorly received and so I think that we then as the development team in the midst of a financial crisis in real estate which has been unprecedented pushed pause and said all right let's revisit this in a more thoughtful Manner and so if Mr terhar is on the phone um Carri or um um coordinator uh Sten Aller may have butchered that but um if he's available I'd like to just double check my math on the traffic reduction because I think it's a very intentional and thoughtful part on behalf of our team and the math that I do when I look at the the uh the traffic report report is by eliminating the retail on the first floor a traffic is reduced by 44% the like Ed if he's available to cross check my math because when I look at the report 10,000 ft of retail would require a week total of approximately 545 trips and those 545 trips would be eliminated just let's give him one moment here okay he is well trying to unmute I think yeah so I I I wanted to start with that that based upon the sketch plan feedback we had in in April and having to thoughtful lens on how to do this that was important the second piece that we think about is the saltdale uh guidelines are very helpful for our team to figure out thoughtful and Creative Solutions for development and so they're guidelines so there's somewhat open to interpretation which we fully understand I think what we think from the development team is a 200t buffer from our property uh line to the adjacent residential to our building it's 200 ft which is very significant you'll read in our ordinance under the approved PUD and the defined plans that we've spent a lot of time to work with um both director Miller and engineering and with lu Luther Overholt in um forestry in Whit and conjunction with the 9mile Creek Watershed District who believe it or not actually has more jurisdiction here over storm water um come up with a thoughtful plan to preserve the trees on the west side and and maintain a great buffer with the neighborhood um in addition our previous PL showed um potential surface parking a roundabout talked about Val valet parking and things like that well this plan there's zero surface parking zero and the only other project that I'm aware of in our city that has zero surface parking is the laurian which we also developed at Sun side in France so I just want to put that out there that this is I think another example some really thoughtful development that's aligned with modern thinking around Transportation pedestrians bikes and everything else I also think that a big core tenant of the Southdale design guidelines is uh mixed use activation pedestrians other ways to create a vibrant environment and when half of our site is class A+ office and half of our site is residential we've done a thoughtful way of connecting those two things through a plaza um and then the fitness center in the retail is designed to service our office tenants and our coffee bar in the office is designed to be open to the public and serve our residents so I think that creates a nice intersection of what would other otherwise be divided uses uh for the site as it relates to the plaza and we've done a lot of work with City staff including director Milner engineering lhb Consultants who have all of our engineering plans for both sites civil landscape on and on that we have thoughtfully designed this Plaza to accommodate a future underpass or overpass should that come to bear and we have uh held that idea sacred since the beginning to take thoughtful design to allow for that flexibility so that's on the record it'll continue to be on the record and I believe at um city council that director Teague that director Milner would speak to that with some sort of certainty do you agree yes director Milner would be available at Council yep thank you so then it comes to you know what have we done as a development team and to someone's Point earlier well why reduce the height on the first floor you know I think in intend uh unintended consequences um are sometimes the result of really good ideas and the 24 20 foot first floor height in theory is a really great idea but as sustainability becomes more at the Forefront of what we think about every day and when our 7250 France project was approved that was kind of a sacred number for commercial use we look at a residential number and we thought then maybe 16 feet works well frankly it's just wasteful we don't need it to D commissioner Smith to your comment there's somewhere between a 2 and 1/2 to 3 foot um for lack of a better term joist or interspatial where you've got structural and then HVAC and other utilities servicing the building so a 14t height would be somewhere between 11 and 11 and 11 and 1/2 ft of finish ceiling and when we hear about the sustainability initiatives of a large part of which this commission is a part of building an extra 2 feet is wasteful and doesn't gain us anything other than more cost more heating more cooling for space that serves no purpose so in the interest of being thoughtful and trying to be Forward Thinking some of the comments we heard tonight we felt that you know what let's present it to this body and see how you react and so I think with that um I've hopefully hit on several of your questions but if not Ary who is a multif family development expert Bob and I remain committed to helping work through any further questions you may have thank you thank you for the good presentation and coming forward again beautiful plan I will open it up to questions amongst Commissioners yeah commissioner Smith good presentation um I have a lot of thoughts I'm trying to see if I could distill it down in something that makes sense um a lot of things right so high level 50 foot view uh when we look at this particular building um we heard a lot about activation of danila mhm and kudos to you talk about Legacy I think you said you name it after one of your kids I think it's after my daughter and my goddaughter my daughter is Danielle if you're watching Danny hello my goddaughter Mila is watching hello Mila also happens to be Drew's daughter so danila [Laughter] that's great that's I wish I could do that um so when I when I think about this this building right one thing that we we would enjoy on France France is a busy street we want to get activation with residents coming out for a walk right you want to be in that busy hustle and bustle you want to make sure that denila is also activated as well which I think you guys are thinking about when I look at the west side of this building you have the trees and a gradual kind of calming sensation going into the residential area right so this building essentially cuts off the noise from France Avenue and separates that noise from the more tranquil side so if I think about this as two different zones I could see the France Zone being like the hip happening let's drive my fancy car down France and everybody looks at it Zone and then on the other side is I want to take a sit down in the park and just relax and enjoy nature hear the birds hear them the wind blow through the trees right so that's how that's my 50,000 ft view so how does it come down right so the pool area that you have here that cut out what I'm thinking in my head is why shift the why is that massing that way why not shift that right so that the pool area is facing denila you're bringing more that activation into that Courtyard area right you kind of mention that you wanted to connect the the the gym for folks in the office space to use the amenities right I see a pool as an amenity can probably add that to your list of amenities but somehow shift the massing so that that pool area faces theil as well can of create more that activation on the inside so that's one thought that I have bring more sunlight instead of on one side you get it on three sides but south facing um sudden exposure you get more sunlight I would guess in that space so I want to understand a little bit more about your thinking on the massing of the building um thinking about retail right so we I know you guys eliminated retail and you had a really great image where folks were kind of like sitting down and like chatting right so again having those chairs and tables on the France side you're forced to talk louder right because the cars are buzzing by you're you're you're yelling not yelling but you're talking loud to your friends and you're getting that energy going is a coffee shop a beasto is that considered retail or like retail and would that trigger some kind of a additional driving I don't think so but I love to hear what you guys think um if that's going to trigger a whole bunch of new cars if you just add more beastro a coffee shop cuz I would come out here and sit down get a sandwich and a coffee and chat with my friends MH right I would would walk out of Cornelia walk over here sit down and say hey meet me at you know 7200 and let's hang out you know that's the kind of vibe that I'm looking for right so I guess two questions from the 50,000 foot view to just the zones tell us more about how do you come up with your design layout right the massing of the building in particular and then two when we think about retail is light retail and I don't know if that's a real term but it's light retail like a coffeee shop Beast show something within scope that's possible here that wouldn't trigger like massive amount of parking on cars so just those two things I would love to hear more your thoughts on that yeah I can I can respond to the massing I think that's a really good question and I think um the massing you described could result in a in a really successful building as well I think the main reason why we why we chose to orient the courtyard to the West is we are thinking of this you know we're going to invest a lot of land and and effort and and trees in this in this amenity and we're thinking of that as a very silven amenity and we really like the idea of this Courtyard uh which faces West um whenever we whenever we do solar studies of amenity Terraces particularly with pools we're always looking at exposure to afternoon light afternoon is the most popular time to use these amenity areas so we're always looking at afternoon light and so um the the courtyard is wide enough and and that aperture open to the West also helps direct um afternoon light to that Terrace when it is used the most the other reason to orient the two legs of the building East West is that we know that um in our in our climate um in our Zone eastwest oriented buildings are by it's by far a better passive solar design um it it uses less energy um there's less energy in cooling um those Western exposures are are the are the most expensive to cool and you want a long Southern Exposure um to take advantage of of natural passive um Heating in the winter so a combination of um just our gut about which which amenity we want to orient our Courtyard to and then also based on um what's the best solar orientation for for uh energy design and then I'll I'll answer your second question my name is Ari parrot I'm with Aton Park development I'm the multif family lead on this site um Ted and I kind of Yin yin and yang for what does the apartment need what does the office building need and we've we've had a lot of good ideas that have been the intersection of those and your second question is an example of that so the 7250 office building has a cafe inside a coffee shop and we felt like it it wouldn't add a lot of value to try to replicate something that 7250 already had that our residents in the neighbor neighborhood could use when it's when it's already there and likewise we added a fitness center they didn't need to so that we could economize the the use between the two sites um people traveling to re a new retail if we were to put it in on this corner like specifically the corner that's facing denila it would present some challenges that we didn't think were worthwhile to kind of further you know re um reorient the building the first is that we felt like our Lobby in the central welcoming access point the place where our um property manager and our employees are congregated would be best served to be on that public facing um Plaza there's going to be a lot of interactions with the public there there could be maintenance needs it's just good to have permanent eyes on that and we felt like the employees of our building are going to be the best permanent eyes and and accountable eyes looking at that so we felt having our front entry our lobby our management space there was going to add a lot of value to both sites in general um and if we had some kind of a retail use in addition to a coffee shop in 7250 it almost necessarily would command a vehicular use too and we didn't think that adding more traffic and dedicating more parking inside of our structured parking garage was going to be a worthwhile Endeavor and in addition displace the amenity space and probably the adjacent units that line it on France Avenue so that's why we didn't put another retail space there um in addition to some of the reasons already discussed thank you a questions commissioner day okay so sorry this one's been in development for quite some time in my understanding following along with the timeline that the original approval uh to your group was given in October of 2022 is that that's correct by the Ping commission I believe that's correct I know that our resolution um was executed in January or February of 2023 so that timing would track correct okay all right so see as I wasn't on the uh Planning Commission in October 2022 and wasn't privy to the discussion of the overall development plan um all I really saw was the hotel piece I think I think that was spring of 2023 when you came and visited us and talked about that so I remember a lot of discussion around the activation of the site constant activity everything um do you think you know peer residential kind of jives with that development plan um I guess that you gave in 2022 and then I guess with the intent of the hotel in terms of constant activity activation of the site so you know when we talked about the hotel I remember a lot of spent time being spent on you know there's going to be a restaurant on the the bottom of the hotel was they're going to how are we going to bring people into denila um make that a more inviting space and and it seemed like that was the intent right we wanted to welcome people in there we wanted to have constant activity we wanted to bring people into that space and maybe even shuttle them over to the west and bring them you know further west um that's the vision right correct and I mean do you think that this resident just per residential jbes with that because to me it seems a bit in conflict because I don't particularly think that a pure residential spot um if I'm being honest and walking past something I I see that now as a closed park that's that's separate that's part of the apartment complex not something that I would go into if there's no commercial element on the street right so I I guess just explain a little bit of that there's multiple questions in there so answer them as you will no I I think that's a really great question I think the activation is at or above with apartments and here's why when you do a hotel study on 150 units the average occupancy in Idina right now at the competing properties runs at 60% Peak so that would put 90 Hotel units being occupied and on a 10,000 ft retail space um I think director Teague correct me if I'm wrong but we were looking at um a restaurant of 150 plus or minus seats plus staff and that becomes problematic for a couple of different reasons I'm turning at the floor cuz I'm trying to think through the math um number one is the parking burden that that creates number two is the traffic burden that creates and number three if I think back to uh 90 occupied Hotel Hotel units versus 150 occupied apartment units that's a pretty significant difference assuming that apartment units are not occupied by one person but generally on average of like two or right around two people so if I think about 300 plus or minus residents there with a lot less traffic demand and a lot less parking demand um I think it becomes a really better use for the neighborhood and our community but also becomes a better use for po itial activation um I think that is if people are living in those apartments and they're there that they will take advantage of the infiltration Bas and they'll take advantage of the sidewalks and the bike they'll take advantage of the park in addition I think they'll take advantage of the programming for the office building next door which will include not only a coffee shop but food trucks and other things down along the infiltration Basin so yes as I think through that and answer your question I do think that this is a great use for the site okay uh in terms of I guess I keep circling back because I the wording is is important right in terms of the overall development plan um so when that was pitched in October 2022 was there anything I mean that stands out to you I'm asking you to remember back almost two years or you know two years now um you know all we saw or at least for my understanding is all that was seen as a box right but what I guess hopes and aspirations that you communicate in terms of innovative design design anything around missing middle housing I mean anything like that or what was that overall message that was communicated by the team no that's a great question I think it's accurately reflected in our resolution and bullet point you know um 1.04 where it clearly calls out calls out housing or hotel plus or minus 150 units or rooms with or without retail so I think we were very clear certainly with staff end on the dis that we were unsure as to what the site would be but would use our best efforts to try to give everyone an example of what we think it could be and I think as as we you know we're going through this financial Challenge and in working to design a project that fits um I I believe that we are very clear in communicating that this could be one of many one of two options either multif family or Hospitality did that answer your question yeah no I think that I think that helps when it comes us to to design I mean we to as as uh Mr John Carlson who's no relation to me um mentioned earlier um said we want to design projects with Wow and pop and I think Bob and Ari can testify that you know we want this to look elevated we want this to look nice we want this to be better we want this to have you know bigger balconies we want this to just stand out a little bit and look nice and use some inspir iring projects to not just build another Cube so I think that's where we take multiple design iterations over and over again that you don't have the privy of seeing because we're here now but I think this is probably design shet seven or eight is what makes it way before you so I think director Teague and staff get get some of that as we're coming with ideas and Concepts and working through it but ultimately you know what you see tonight is our best effort to align many different parties and opinions with you know maybe not a perfect project but something that we think is very good uh I'm going to keep going that's uh since it's such a long and iterative process right when can I ask when was the last time the community was engaged or or updated with what's going on because I've picked up on a lot of confusion in terms of you know this site has had many many proposals Hotel back you know residential Hotel back to residential just wondering what that process with the community is like and what the reception's been that's very fair I mean I think the first Redevelopment proposal for this site came back 10 years ago in 2014 and there's been multiple projects that are approved and haven't worked for whatever reason um we notify the neighborhood the day that we submit our project to the city staff and I think if you talk to some of the neighbors and residents who are here in attendance or or earlier is that um one of the core tenants of Orion and our team is that we don't want the neighborhood ever feel like they've not been engaged or heard so uh Joel I think is our contact for the neighborhood association there's other influential people Drew and I had an in-person meeting last night we have a meeting scheduled for August 1st at arnison Acres with the neighborhood okay and Ted can I add one more thing we've also been monitoring the The Better Together e dite for the comments that are posted there to see if anything come out of that that would be instructive and how we're approaching our project so there I I checked it just again right before the meeting started and I think there was half a dozen or so comments and some similarities in there nothing that you know was particularly influential in what we could do at this stage U but it's another resource that we've been Consulting yeah one final small question before I uh we move along to other Commissioners so there was a bit of a discrepancy in terms of the parking this 153 units or 150 153 okay cuz the parking study said 150 so I was like wait a second there's what changed there and I some residents actually picked up on that and communicated that to me and said what's going on why is there a difference there it was basically a function of our Market study you know we were constantly trying to figure out what the right mix of apartment units is in a building like this you know we we had a given massing that we didn't change we're basically just carving it up in a slightly different way and we felt like we had the opportunity to add a few more units particularly on the first floor so we had been reserving certain spaces for amenity use and for storage and for other functions and we felt like we don't need as much much as we've reserved for there so we could probably just add another residential unit or two on the ground um which you can see reflected in our plans so it was basically just a alignment reconciliation of the unit mix okay yeah I'm and I doubt it impacted the traffic study three units impacted the traffic study very much but I thought I would ask just because it is a point of confusion or small discrepancy so thanks other questions commissioner I just two real quick um so is the is the building of the office component contingent on anything we do today is there any plan to like get that buil or going that's one question and the other question is um I think somebody said the hotel got a poor reception or hotel got a poor reception when did that happen I don't remember that happening at our meeting I think I remember people kind of thinking it was kind of cool and giving it a positive reception so or like a optimistic that could had potential type of reception because it was unique and it was going to be unique to the area and bring activity to the area I don't remember anybody complaining about the turnaround or anything like that so what happened like when who didn't like the hotel yeah that's a great question um I feel like the hotel maybe was more positively received here but I don't know that I would call it super enthusiastic and maybe a little less positive at city council frankly okay um we also heard from uh neighborhood uh leaders that a hotel was not a great idea director Teague is that fair so um with all due respect that that's where it's coming from okay um and then as it relates to I'm sorry I miss your first question oh I was just wondering if you could remind me whether the building of office yes the office um we are negotiating a term sheet with a lender right now that is uh doable and so um that is plus or minus an $87 million project and as you can imagine with the office headlines right now financing that is challenging but we are firm believer in our community our project our design and we have very good tenant demand so uh Drew and I and our team are uh doing everything we can to get shovels in the ground by October 1st if I was going to bet on it today I would say it's 7 5% chance that happens okay yeah thank you yep as long as we're on that subject it maybe an important Nuance to point out that um back when we were going through this process in 2022 and early 2023 was that you know we we neither us you the city council or residents frankly should be left with a site that's undeveloped where we don't know what's happening so the burden of the infiltration base in the north sou South both connect or non Street the sidewalks and and um everything else are being borne by the office building so I think that was an important Nuance that the public benefit that's delivered is just maybe 19% on this site but it's approaching 40% on easements across the entire site for public use and benefit um that was kind of the impetus behind the way that this was set up is that fair director Teague and and Ted maybe I think it's fair to point out like what we could debate whether a residential project or hotel project is more exciting or or better but the fact is that the hotel project is simply not viable correct correct um I was second i' I've worked from home for 13 years I think now and um what's great is I work for four hours and then I jump up and go outside and walk and go to a coffee shop or do an errand and then I go and I work for two hours and then I meet a friend um and then I go and work for two hours or whatever it is so in terms of the activation I think besides the number the amount of people that are going to be um living there I think it's going to be active especially with the um the ground level walkout units with the dog owners and the and so and I also see um denila being active um I'm calling it danilla Plaza in my head because I don't think it's a street um and I also like the um I'm kind of jumping ahead I I did have a question here somewhere I like the breaking down of the massine to the West um to the neighborhood if I could I could piggyback on that too is that um aside from the very astute reasons that Ari and Bob shared is that it may not be appropriate to have that public element facing the office building right and I think and I think it just breaks down the mass of the building rather than having flat aad on that on that West Side um so I think my I am and I'm actually okay with um because I do remember the question about what was it going to be um I don't remember all the specifics but I remember the hotel not being 100% baked in in this um so the massing is the same the land use is the same um but but for me in I I am wondering a little bit we've got the 14t and the 20 foot um and this is I love that they're separate and following the Southdale guidelines but the um kind of a cohesiveness between the two buildings I mean they feel similar but I'm wondering if there's a little bit one of the reasons we have the height guideline and or thinking about it is that we want kind of a street level all across um France all about the same level whatever it is um so I'm thinking about that here between these two buildings I see a little bit in the play of the openings in the front of the office building and the play of the openings in front of the walkout dog units and I see a little bit in then some of the dark but I'm wondering about pulling them together a little bit yeah I I think that's a great question I would suggest that Bob you've I think heard from Ari and I and our design team that we want these to be cousins precisely what I was gonna say not twins not siblings not maybe not even siblings but cousins right for that exact reason and I think that we want to have it be complimentary and the name of our office building is the Craftsman uh and in Testament to adolfson and Peterson who's our lead tenant general contractor a billion dollar plus uh Minnesota headquartered company and I think is a demonstration of excellence in the construction field so you know I don't know if this is called The Artisan if if approved or what but I think that there's designed intentional designed to have carryover the amenities in the office building are on the northwest corner which uh and the amenities in in this proposed building are in the South and Southeast and southwest corner so they're intentionally designed to help facilitate interaction between professional office users and residents yeah and is that I I believe you in the activation of the Street between those two and the way denilla Plaza is designed um I can see the activation and I can see it being active throughout the day because of um I suspect a lot of people that will be working from home and will have varied schedules okay and um yeah so for me that's that on that that question of that of that street level as you're walking down I like the trees I like trees actually separating you from France Avenue um I can actually see myself walking down in front of this on France um so the only question is like some even though their cousins I mean maybe they still share the same last name some sort of uniformity on that street that link the street all the way through the two yeah our our our sidewalk design and landscape design is uniform throughout the project yeah I do like that as well I like the rear Street Public Access um more in this version than the previous version because it feels a little cleaner and I like the engagement with the water retention area and um I'm actually I I tried to do this 20 years ago like have people like throw grasses in water retention areas and I think they can be nice wild places and and then to further and and talk about that point is that we are responsible for maintenance and upkeep of that Basin and we are directed by 9M Creek Watershed District through Confluence or landscape architect on what is planted there and how that maintenance is handled so we can provide assurance that it won't turn into a dirt patch thank you that was my only question that straight yeah and and I was thinking thinking a little bit more about how closely um related those two buildings are in terms of design or specific characters I think it's important that the residents and tenants of each of these buildings um feel that they're in a unique building like I think when when you have a visitor coming to to visit you you don't want them to be confused about like oh that big officy complex like no it's the residential building on the corner versus the the office building on the opposite corner and I think it's not explicitly mentioned in the in the Southdale design guidelines but I think part of the motivation for dividing um development sites into smaller blocks obviously the primary motivation is for Access pedestrian access that sort of thing but I think I think another just sort of um implicit motivation is is to create um a little more heterogeneity if I can use that word in um in in in larger developments like this like this is a large development I think if if those buildings looked closer to each other or very close to each other I think it might look too monolithic um I I think as I think part of the motivation of of dividing those blocks into 200 foot blocks is is to give the impression of a city that has evolved over time and so even though these two buildings are being proposed more or less as part of the same development will be constructed constructed at the same time I think when they're fully built out I think it will be I think it will serve um um the neighborhood better for these to have look more heterogenous yeah I fair enough I'm not I'm not slavish to it but I always think of European cities where they're all built out of the same thing and I mean awnings are different and that's about it you still find your way home um but I'm not it's fine with me um couple sort of tactical questions um the coffee at 7250 there's no surface parking lot so um and I know that's the other building but how how did we imagine the rest of the public accessing that space um at 7250 there are 13 at grade stalls oh there are there got it yes the 7200 is all contained within the building thank you um I'm sure you saw on on Better Together too um and it's not unique to your development there is a lot of concern about um if the city particularly in Southdale has too many apartments too many rental apartments uh I'm sure you did when you pivoted from the hotel did some market research can you just tell us for the benefit of of the public what you did and what you're what you understood about what the competition's occupancy is and and how they're feeling and Performing so the world can hear that we're not just rubber stamping more Apartments yeah absolutely it's a that's a good question if you put a pin in the buildings that just opened and are in the middle of leas up all the buildings that are stabilized and have been opened for some time are full um with rents that are rising so when we did our Market study we looked at all the existing buildings and we looked at the buildings that we knew about as either likely to come or definitely coming including the Macy site across the street that was sort of the biggest um future Supply that impacts the demand for our building and so even with their 500 plus units they're still still in excess of demand when you take our site and the Macy's site together um so we were not worried about that at all that's probably at the bottom of our of our concerns and I know it's a common thing for residents to wonder about particularly if you live in a single family home and you don't experience that apartment living on a daily basis the buildings are full and doing well well and we're not unique in the nation there's a housing shortage altogether but I guess my question is about did you run and understand what your competitor's occupancies are because you've got a lot of buildings that are 3 four years old that are still not stabilized so just trying to understand that particular Point yeah we did so in the buildings that were stabilized we didn't see any lards everybody was in the 85 to 97% range of occupancy and and I think it's a great question commissioner and I you know I remind people when we're working on developments is that we get an opportunity to discuss this with you tonight but we have 9 Mile Creek Watershed District France is a County Road the city Council and But ultimately it all flows up to the Metropolitan Council and I think that's a healthy reminder for all of us uh as residents and developers and commissioning bodies that ultimately there is um a need for more housing in all communities to your point and so I think for some of the chatter on next door Better Together is a reminder that whether it's the Twin Cities or Beyond is that housing is a major concern in all major metropolitan areas this site is also unique relative to a lot of our competition in that it Embraces France it's sitting on France it's not tucked back you know near Southdale or in any of the other neighborhoods it's it's right there on France and so we thought that was an opportunity to be accessible and top of mind and in such close proximity to all of the the neighborhood amenities um while at the same time being like a little quieter and commissioner Smith he put it so well you know you have these kind of like two zones that you're transitioning into and that's a an opportunity an asset that we have that we didn't take lightly we knew that there sensitivity as we do that transition but it's something that we think our residents are going to be really excited about and we think the neighborhood is going to be excited about too because their transition now moves a lot more smoothly than it has historically with the office buildings and the parking garages that were in disrepair and unfortunately the you know kind of hole in the ground as we as we all see now so I mean Centennial Lakes used to Gravel Pit so maybe we have a history of wow developments out of pits um and I had mentioned this to commissioner Teague at the beginning there is um some information in the traffic section of the ad comp plan that speaks to Road density around the Southdale district and it doesn't match up with some of these studies that are being done by santat K kimly horn so I'd love to understand as a point for staff and just general clarification how we think about those where you have the plan saying we're at or over capacity in certain roads and other private studies saying we're not I would need help with our city engineer to answer a question like that the big picture saltdale area um I know we've been trying to get Mr terhar to connect I'm not sure if we've he says he's heard everything and he's tried to speak hello can you hear me hello yes okay I'm here from the ceiling um yeah your question about the comp plan um I did not work on the comp plan but typically those are traffic forecasts are far in the future 20140 or 2050 so they look at Future volumes and if volumes continue to grow as they have in the past there could be some capacity problems but in the shorter term for this development um we're not at that point yet understood um just bringing that to the attention um sure more more sort of esoteric but as we're talking about danella Plaza and and the other Mr Carlson's call for the wow factor which I hear I absolutely think you've created a wow factor for your residents and office tenants if The Pedestrian over underpass does happen and and uh especially if it doesn't I guess I'm wondering how you see the rest of the public interacting in this very large space that can feel I think as one of the other commissioner members mentioned like a private park for this these two buildings um somebody had mentioned food trucks which would be on the back side of France have you in all of your iterations sort of discussed how you might invite people who are just driving by on France to be like ooh something is happening there and I want to go join yeah that's a great question I I I I would hesitate to say that we have the parking or capacity to accommodate what I would call maybe a um a public gathering so I need to be cautious about that I think it's designed to be more an area amenity that's walked or biked to for the neighborhood and order to serve the residents or the office patrons um with programming and amenities as needed fair enough is that fair yep fair enough just um and then I guess I just uh really want to commend you guys for um I know working with the city and the county and everything as you work through the overpass and I'm sure the easements uh has been a challenge um so thank you for trying to to work that through in your design I'm sure as an architect that's hard to design for if and situations you guys have done a great job of preserving the trees I know the neighbors were very concerned you're 200 ft back and you have this beautiful um wet lens in between um every unit it appears practically has access to the outdoors um which is great for biophilic design and all of our our our livelihoods I did want to question though there seem to be about as many units that don't have balconies and that are alcoves as your affordable requirement and I just wanted to make sure that that was not connected in any way not connected the the vast majority as you said of our units have outdoor spaces and the ones that don't basically can't sitting at a corner of the building where a balcony would intrude on somebody else's balcony basically um so yeah those are not connected great and um then last and and maybe this sort of a joint question we've t uh in your uh packet we talked a lot about green roof and and Lead silver and some of these other amenities how does that work in terms of what happens and is approved in the sketch plan ultimately to as things get fine-tuned and you go through with the city to what the final drawings are you know a lot of those are great public goods and part of the vision I just don't know how those might get left on The Cutting Room floor I mean you know the first thing we do is we engage with staff and uh complete alignment and in some cases sign significantly enhanced from the sustainable policy so I would offer to you from the development team on behalf of our team is that we will 100% meet the Baseline of the ad sustainable policy and I'll let the experts talk about how much we may exceed that as someone who's developed I I understand uh that things happen over the course of the two years I just want to make sure that some of these really great things end up being preserved as part of the vision yeah I I can had um before that's one of the conditions of approval that they meet our sustainability policy um so they're meeting with Marissa Bayer our um sustainability coordinator so we wouldn't issue a building permit unless they met that policy so she's she's involved at the building per you know at this stage all the way through building permit will you talk a little bit about the um the ination park you've got a couple of pieces that go in there that people can hang out will you describe those in detail sorry which the the park which Park the the on the back side on the west side of the yes as you go into the divot um hole in the ground Gravel Pit Gravel Pit you on the site plan right there's that one and there's another one on the corner would you just describe those a little bit oh the where the truck is let's go to the site plan it's taking a little while there we go yeah so um there are a couple spots within this I guess the main the main idea of this is that we're trying to promote um circulation through the site um but then along with circulation the design um anticipates moments of pause or stopping or gathering or reflection um and you can see a couple of these one here is a is a sort of Overlook um on the edge of that um storm water feature so you have a little bit of Prospect and you could look down and um and and see the nature um Ted observed that there's a rafter of turkeys that must live nearby um so that might be a that's the yeah a a multiple multip yeah that's the that's the plural of turkeys as a rafter I don't know why I know that um and then here there's another spot so at the um you know on access with denila um which could be visible as you're as you're walking by or biking by on France maybe not as you're driving by there is a spot here for um uh food truck or two to park and it's anticipated I think that that would be part of the programming of of U combination of the office building and and the Residential Building probably a better amenity for office building where people are definitely there for lunch y we have great success programming um different food trucks and ice cream trucks at are commercial properties that's great thing I'm suspecting that the apartment residents would also partake but currently we don't have Office Buildings with a combined Apartment project and how wide is that sidewalk between the two Plaza no no oh the sidew between the truck parking and the little Overlook right the and the Overlook is in a very public corner too so I sure would invite people into that space yeah the one yeah and the public axis new street the sidewalk yeah I believe this one is 12 ft okay and then does it continue on South or is that it does it does not so the the the the the route is connecting from 72nd to denila and then East to France okay so you dump onto the street then yeah there there is a way that that you could circulate here adjacent to the office building there is a sidewalk here that is that is immediately adjacent to the office building and then this is that Switchback um accessible route that we talked about and then and then you can see just to point out some of the features so all the 72 uh um 50s amenities are all located um in this corner facing denila there's some outdoor um spaces where anyone could gather um but but ideally probably mostly the the office tenants and you know someone could come into this coffee shop could be someone from the Residential Building could be someone just on their bike um and they could come into this coffee shop they could they could take something to go they could hang out on this front porch if that's what if that's what they want to do so these are these spaces are all going to be dedicated and and open to the public and a 12ft sidewalk would allow someone like a couple with a stroller and someone adjacent to them right the more gadgets we have okay thank you commissioner alare thanks for the presentation really uh excited to see the shared amenities particularly the parking between the two sides of the building uh or excuse me between the two buildings uh because I understand that Phase 2 7200 is going to provide some of the parking requirement for the commercial building which is fantastic um on 7200 the building we're talking about tonight no surface parking also fantastic but for for my education maybe our education but particularly my education because I'm asking the question maybe everybody else knows this already we feel we often hear that uh for multif family got to have some surface parking for visitors got to have 15 stalls for visitors can't do without it um but you don't have any so operationally I'm driving up to this building to see my friend I got a car how how does this accomplished yeah actually the so the it's a good question the the parking for the office building that's going to be supplied in 7200 is all in a single level at street level that is accessed from 72nd Street and so the nice thing is that the lower two levels of parking which will be for the residents are able to be secured um and and they will have to enter with credentials but level one Park is intended as a more transient um um user so not only office tenants but also potential um resident guests or or prospects and one of the reasons why that works really well is that obviously the demand for office parking is during the day 9 to 5 demand for um um guest parking is overwhelmingly in the evening so it's a really nice um way to accommodate all of these users and welcome these people to the site without having to build parking that sits vacant for you know 16 hours a day absolutely one of the benefits of commercial residential mixed use we don't have a lot of that in Dina so happy to see happy to see it here so basically I drive off 72nd Street and there's some visitor spots and I just I I'm I'm set correct and and the details of that aren't aren't worked out it could be that it's just could there could be some spots reserved for Resident guests or it may be more yeah I can offer examples of where that is in our city today it' be at Nolan Mains MH where you've got the public parking you it the doors open in the summer and it's closed in the winter and it sensor goes up same with the laurant at 44th in France great so I think you're going to manage this building after it's done also or is somebody else going to be doing that we would have a third party management company do it who's also a project partner okay um so would somebody some other entity would be setting uh parking policy for residents like whether the whether the parking is separate or included in the rent is that not your call the parking is going to be all a cart it's not going to be included in the rent so enable residents to elect to park at their demand level great thank you um last thing would you just say a few words about the North South Street that's not a street cuz I feel like the last time we talked about 7250 or one of the times we talked about 7250 we had some conversations about bike and pet experience along that north south and it sounds like we got sidewalks we got some pet facilities around the around the water feature um but that the street itself is a vehicular route is that am I thinking about that correctly yes commission Al you think about that correctly and I would actually ask director Teague to help weigh in on this because we've had a lot of conversation with City engineering and staff about how to design Street and and when 7250 was approved there were several conditions for modifying that North South Street including narrowing it getting rid of a median and making it more um dedicated to to autos and so those those conditions have been have been applied to to this site plan now okay good thank you thank you so um I guess while we're on this while we're on this page um so so now I'm getting confused by this by the trail on the left hand side because my understanding you know um from the previous from the 7250 project and it looks like it here is that the path continues All the Way South The Pedestrian bicycle path is that not and you said it didn't so I'm confused so there's a row of trees on the left hand side of the property of 7250 and then there's a space there which looks like a trail to me to the left yeah uh just to the left of that yes so is that trail or no I I don't believe it is I don't believe it is um and I'm going to slightly disagree with you all right it is Ted has more experience with 7250 than I yes we do okay I think the differentiator commissioner Miranda is that I believe our sidewalk coming up 7250 is not ada8 compliant the sidewalk coming up 7250 which is why we can also come up through denila Plaza not sure I understand that what I think he's referring to the sidewalk that's right next to the building of the 7250 there right okay gotcha so um this is gone and I'm sorry I'm not trying to be elusive it's literally gone through probably 100 iterations so sure so okay so just to be clear on the left hand side along the property line that is a trail yes okay yep okay great that's what I wanted to hear so so that is all right so so some of my biggest concerns and um are the connection of the 9 Mile Creek Trail which is Du you know just south of here to the bridge or tunnel or whatever is going to happen which presumably would be happening through denila Plaza I guess um so as someone who uh was walking with another commissioner the other day and got honked at by a motorist because I was crossing at a legal crosswalk which was not marked um is is any kind of um is any kind of uh traffic coming going to be done in that gray area um where danila meets the street so would that be like a raised crosswalk for example yes I I don't know I I know it's a different material type and likely identified um on the ground but um I don't know that it's raised because I mean because you've got a very long Street and I think part of the reason why perhaps you know city council members were asking for a narrower Street was you know you've got a very long Street that's what two blocks long basically there and I live on a street that's two blocks long and believe me cars build up speed if there's no stop sign or anything else to stop them and you know if we're if the whole idea is to get people to use a million dollar Bridge or tunnel or whatever they're going to want to feel safe the whole point of creating this tunnel or this bridge is to make people feel safe and if they don't feel safe getting to it on this little side street then we've destroyed the entire purpose of it and we've spent millions of dollars on something that people are not going to use they're just going to cross at France Avenue right which is what people do in Minneapolis even though the sabbo bridge is all pretty and everything people just want to cross the street so they just cross there anyway I really uh I would almost recommend anyway so I think that should be should be elevated uh um I mean you know these exist they're what do they call them U streets not tabled no tables than yes tables thank you so I think a table there would be very good I mean it wouldn't slow cars down that much but I think it would be very safe um all right all right so that got that at and then was there ever a sidewalk on the east side of that street or was this was the trail created to obate the need for that there is not a sidewalk on the east side the the the sidewalk as you come up through the Plaza then connects to the entrance and the um amenities of the office building and then it connects North to South along the office building okay great thank you um and then if you go to the diagram where they you have the you called it the front porch the resident is facing the yeah there was one more I think this one yeah so I mean this is a great idea and If This Were along you know kind of like the uh oh shoot what's that building called um along the along the uh prominade you know this would be really wonderful and that it would look a lot like that but you know you've got six to eight Lanes of 45 mph traffic just you know just to the west of here so this is not only dangerous but it's going to be noisy extremely noisy especially with a you know a building behind it so so this is a nice diagram but I just don't know that it's really going to turn out like that um and then my final thing was is in terms of the ground floor height and this is something I've brought up many times and I know the city has been trying really hard to to lower this height even though it's been in the design experience guidelines I'll I'll uh quote page 16 of the design experience guidelines that were approved by the city council um where uh it says building form and it says ground floor should have a minimum ceiling height of 20 feet for flexibility and this floor t- floor height will allow the space to accommodate commercial two floors of parking or two-story tow houses so a few points about that one you know there are questions for example by commissioner Smith with about you know what that height actually is so whatever I'm not an architect but whatever fits two floors of parking or two-story tow houses um and Commercial would would certainly uh fit that um and so you want to reduce it two feet compared to the previous proposal which included commercial so was at least the 16 feet was at least high enough that's where we were right 16 was enough was high enough to to accommodate commercial um you know we and you know there's talk about about climate action and sustainability and stuff so the thing is this building is going to be here for 30 years 50 years whatever so what we've seen for example with covid is that you know five years ago um uh office space was really important and especially in the Southdale district and now it has been completely eviscerated right there's like no need for it or whatever so the whole point point of this regulation and and and suggestion is to make sure that if you know and and suddenly with the the need for housing and affordable housing that housing is huge now in the Southdale District so the South Sale District in the past 10 years what's been good for this district has completely turned around 180 degrees and that's the whole point of this right this has happened in 10 years and you know Co isn't necessarily over and we potentially have you know a a bird flu whatever coming which may be our next thing to deal with so who knows what's going to happen in the future and so you know saying so having keeping the higher height for flexibility I think is more important for sustainability than than it is you know saving two feet of H fat cost for a few years whatever so so I think that's really important and I think that's something that um I'm gonna push for here um that's not gonna change is that going to change whether you do the project or not whether it's 14t or 16t um if if this were 16 ft then the building would either have to be taller than 72 feet or we would simply sort of squash everything and make the top of the building a little less articulated I guess what I would point out is um you know I am familiar with those design experience guidelines and and the stated for 20 ft um and and you're right it states so that could there could be two floors of parking or that there could be twostory Apartments I think it is almost um impossible that if a building were built that someone would later insert a level of parking inside like like sure I mean um and and I would also say that that 14 ft floor to floor um does yield an 11 to 11 1/2t ceiling and that is plenty for almost all commercial maybe with everything other than a Cub Foods or a Super Target so um we do a lot of vertical mixed use and 14 ft is a very common floor to floor height that can accommodate restaurants small retail coffee shops all sorts of those things so I I I think the the 20 feet um it does make sense if you're trying to to to sandwich two levels of parking within a a very gracious first flooor um I've learned um through doing some projects at 20 ft floor to floor is actually not enough to do a two-story apartment or or or housing it needs to be more like 22 but 14 ft is a really nice um floor height that will give you a very gracious ceiling and and accommodate almost any public use okay well if it's good for commercial I mean I'm not expecting uh twostory condos or or a part ramp to go there but um but it was more about commercial space and and you requested 16 before so I thought that would be necessary yeah I I I don't think we're we're we're boxing oursel out of out of any future conversion here um this the building itself isn't large enough to accommodate a big box door which is the only one that might want more more more height and we're preserving the beauty of the building so having that height articulation on the top floor we think is going to add a lot to the public and just kind of visual interest as people are either walking up and down France or driving up and down France and we're also preserving the ability to attractively Market these residential units on the second through the sixth floor because if we started to squish that down because we moved the first floor up we now have much less desirable residential units which is the vast majority of the use of the building so we we thought this was kind of Best of Both Worlds we build less concrete which is very environmentally intensive and expensive we still get desirable uh ceiling Heights residential units and Heights that are tall enough to in the future convert to um commercial and we keep the building below a height that would trigger another request to the city okay thank you that's it uh so just add to that point so if the building went up 2 feet you're saying that's not going to be as aesthetically pleasing when you look at the two buildings is that kind of the concern that you that you raised no if if the build went up 2 feet we think that's reasonable it just it adds cost that we don't think has a corresponding benefit right now because in the future let's say that um you know your observation commissioner Miranda about you know maybe these units are too loud and they're less desirable than we think they are we think they're going to lease and we think they're maybe going to be some of the more popular units in the building but let's say that we're wrong or the market changes and there's some kind of shock to the system and we decide we want to come back to the city and propose converting this area to commercial the ceiling's already high enough to do that we don't need the additional 2T to convert it to to commercial so it basically wasn't adding anything to the site besides unnecessary cost which is why we proposed taking it out and and frankly I think taking it out to the resident comment earlier what we all like is adds a little wow factor with additional design up top here yep questions yeah uh this question is more for director T I know with added um buildings any concerns with water sewer anything of that nature in this area CU I know this part of the city had a concern with superflow and the need to upgrade to accommodate new buildings just any comments you could you could share on that yeah I don't there are no sewer capacity issues in this area and the storm water drainage with the what's proposed on the West Side our Engineers have reviewed it um so no issues that I'm that we're aware of all right I got I got just one after all that I think most of the questions were asked but thank you guys for the the presentation beautiful looking proposal I guess just process-wise I guess Carrie alluded to it why did you um choose to forgo going through the sketch plan and you know not committing so much resource and kind of getting this thing so dialed in um what why did why did you choose to forgo that in the process if it was available that's a great question I think it was a function of taking the sketch plan through that we felt was not very well received with the potential hospitality and um working within the guidelines of the approved P for project which really well defined so I think in the interest of efficiency and and just um fin fiscal responsibility working within the confines of what we agreed upon that this was a logical and efficient way to pursue this process okay I guess I'd just maybe recommend otherwise going forward we we tend I mean I'd say almost every project at this kind of juncture we do see a sketch plan without so many of the detail so if there is something even if it's little or maybe a little more substantial it's not so locked in so that we can get you in the right you know the right more approvable step um and after that so I guess that would just be my recommendation and I guess for that there's just you know a couple things I have comments on later that I don't know our deal breakers but I feel like the project suffers a little bit if we have to approve this in its exist in it's specific fashion right now and that's just the point of the process why I was asking any other questions all right thank you guys oh wait we got one more sorry for all these popcorn questions here um uh art um I know we wanted to have the wow factor and I think that's going to come in a much bigger scale as we look at the entire Street room on France but tell me a little bit more about how you guys plan to infuse art into these spaces um make it some attractive points um throughout the city I did see in some of these um like this one here uh you had something but anything else that you get out about art um in these spaces well I can add that in the projects we've done in the past we've committed to $100,000 worth of public art on the site and we worked with um a local Artisan to create sculpture and place it in a coordination with uh landscape architect and with City staff to their review do an approval so what we can provide now is that you know the dollar amount and then um provide input on where we in the cult Sal and think could be best received and best presented all right I think that's it all right now thank you guys and then yeah stick around obviously after the public hearing you know we might have some more questions as we deliberate uh but this is the public hearing for of the meeting so we will open that and for those who are still tuning in remotely uh we'll give you a chance to get in the queue um while you do that then we'll invite people who are here in person to come forward and speak but for those tuning in again please call 312 535 8110 and enter access code 2632 205 8054 the password is 5454 press star three on your keypad to get in the C to speak I'm sure some of this info is on the screen right we can't see it but sorry so what I was just saying to commissioner Bennett was that before we get to community comment um I wanted to make it clear to people what exactly the ask in front of Planning Commission is tonight right so we have commissioner Teague referred to very little leeway we're not being asked to rezone this it's already been reson it's already been approved to be PD the overall development plan pretty much 150 unit building everything was approved in October of 2022 already right and so what we're asked we do is they this site plan basically align with what was already approved in 2022 and will we Grant the variance for the height for the height change that's it I mean we really have no grounds to say we're not going to be resoning the Pud because that's not the question and I mean to in my mind right ex essentially my personal opinion on this project carries little weight because it's already been approved right on October October 22 so I just want to make sure that residents understand that because I did get a lot of uh questions about that where are we in the process are we being as Z own or what are we doing here tonight I wanted to make sure that that was clear before we you know got into the community comment part of this yeah great distinction anything else to add Carrie nope I believe that was well done great all right so uh for those tuning in Rolle just hold tight uh we will invite those who are here in person to come up and speak you have 3 minutes uh State your full name address and when it turns red your time's up I'll ask you to move on yeah there should be a camera with should be the the center of the logo good evening uh my name is Sandy Carlon I live at 4433 Ellsworth Drive and I am not a relative of Ted Carlon um tonight I'm here and I'm a little disheartened to give these remarks but I think they're necessary when I read through the city uh of Adina staff report included with the agenda for this meeting I was dismayed or perhaps baffled to see that the most important information to the residents of our neighborhood was not included in your information packet that is the transition zone discussed in the greater Southville District area guidelines I thought to myself how could that be how could that be missed why isn't it there so I asked my husband I said you know could you review this report and he didn't find any reference to uh the transition zone in the um referenced in the greater Southdale area guidelines and it's disturbing that I had to ask the city staff to include a discussion of something so important to our neighborhood we spent many hours hashing over what should be included in the guidelines and particularly the transition zone and even met with city council members in my my kitchen I do not think you could possibly make a good decision tonight without having this information provided and I don't think that a resident should have to ask that this be provided to you because it's very basic information so I just feel that having to intervene intervene here really just kind of show disrespect to our neighborhood that this information was not provided upfront to the Planning Commission I also want to clarify with you that an apartment building has not previously been approved for this site under Orion no ownership the notice of public meeting published in the suncurrent on July 11th has created confusion in our our neighborhood leading some residents to think that an apartment building has already been approved and I think this is still very unclear to people as to exactly what has and hasn't been approved for this site and what will be approved possibly by the city council here on August 7th and I believe emails between myself the city council and the city staff have been provided to you to help clarify this point and it is my understanding that the approval of this plan will approve the apartment building for the site now uh switching to another topic I I can't think of anywhere in E Dino where a building of this height has been built next to residential homes here's a picture of a home next to the six-story building the ARA I doubt you would want a building like this next to your home but it is does give an idea of the scale of this apartment building compared to single family homes this is a picture of a resident uh in the lake Cornelia area from their backyard this is the 4040 building at 70th Street and you can see this four-story building um just completely destroys their privacy and their backyard I believe that the building that is proposed is too high for our area it does not comply with the transition zone and it is actually uh totally out of scope for uh something backing up to a residential area and I know I have three minutes but I sat here for an hour two hours and 15 minutes to get a chance to speak um you cannot pick and choose what guidelines apply to a project the transition zone between our neighborhood and the Southville District must be maintained it's very important to us an infiltration based and does not meet the spirit and intent of the designed experience guidelines which are articulated in very clearly there's just too much confusion regarding what is going on with this site and what is being requested to be approved therefore I am asking uh that uh you uh disapprove this and state that the apartment is not consistent with the overall site plan because of all of the confusion that exists right now thank you thank you very much thank you for wrapping up appreciate it all right same thing three minutes full name address welcome again good evening my name is Nora Davis I live at 6921 Southdale Road the lake Cornelia neighborhood and the 4040 project is in my backyard learned a lot about development through this whole process and one of my concerns is I haven't heard anybody talk about how these developments impact the neighborhood there really hasn't been a lot of discussion tonight about traffic how are people going to get there well I know they're going to be whipping up 70th they're not going to go all the way to France Avenue around the roundabout which by the way is often clogged and by the way 70th Street is often backed up to Highway 100 I don't know if you often use 70th but you do need to try it so they're going to very quickly learn I shoot down 70th I make a right turn onto Cornelia Drive pass the school make a left turn on 72nd and race down that road and that's a residential neighborhood and nobody has talked about that that is a very serious impact for that neighborhood I hear Adina talking about missing middle and I hear Adina talking about oh my gosh climate change yesterday was the hottest day we've seen as of yet um I volunteered for the henpen county Urban heat island project and we are developing one massive heat island in the Southdale area trees are being taken down you go down France Avenue now they have removed grass they have removed trees and I don't know why anyone would feel comfortable walking down France Avenue they're going 40 to 50 miles an hour I can hear the drag racing from my home on Southdale road so I think we need to start looking at impact and it needs to be part of the process and I think we also need to look very carefully at renderings they are always so beautiful the beautiful trees the Green Space we were told 4040 would have more green space after they took everything up with this massive building makes no sense we have to start looking at the truth we have to start being concerned about the people that live here the families that are already here let's start talking about that in middle and let's start being respectful and truthful to people thank you thank you hi David Frankle 4510 L View Drive uh I seem to have become The Unofficial Ada advocate in this building and I'm not sure why you know we have people on staff that are supposed to do it it seemed to say it's ADA Compliant that's that's good enough uh the reality is every proposal should have an ADA component should be up front and center is this particular project ADA Compliant I didn't hear Ada in the last two hours last two hours nothing about Americans with Disability Act and I won't go into the details of that the other thing is roughly from 66 Street to 494 on France Avenue on the West Side none of that's ada8 compliant I bike and walk it all the time it's a freaking disaster and I talk to Hanan County about it they won't touch it they don't have anything on their proposals to do anything about it which comes to the issue earlier was brought up why isn't transportation and planning in the discussions about a bridge or tunnel or whatever you want to call it on France Avenue France Avenue as was mentioned is controlled by hanen county and has to meet mindat standards I've talked to hanen County engineering and they say there's just no way that's going to happen to go underneath France Avenue there's too much infrastructure down there the only reason they'll negotiate because they won't pay a nickel to do anything if he Dina wants to spend a lot of money and I mean a lot of money because nobody knows how much it's going to cost has anybody asked the question how much is the bridge going to cost how much is the tunnel going to cost how much are two Bridges going to cost nobody knows yet we're moving forward with that you said this project was already proposed it was already approved yet it was approved without this tunnel bridge whatever so are we going to come back later and say to this developer you got to put this bridge in here and they're going to say we're taking you to court that's what's called a surprise are we going to get a surprise out of this project because we didn't ask the tough questions the holding pond on this project were every going to call it Park Marsh Wetland under State Tiff guidelines you cannot use Tiff money for a park period that was because of Centennial Lakes Tiff was designed for economic development not to build Parks I love Parks but that wasn't the intention of this funding so the question should be what is the Overflow going to go to when there's a large downfall which we've been getting lately with climate change go down to minihaha Creek it's already starting to go over its banks and Arden Park what happens when there's flooding in this project where's the Overflow going to be you know what the surprise is we were never told when they built the holding pond at Weber Woods the Overflow was the Minneapolis storm water system if you go down to Lake bad makasa today tonight tomorrow our water is overflowing the holding ponds at Lake bad makasa we didn't tell the Minneapolis parkboard about that and they got stuck with it and we're flooding their holding ponds which can't overflow into an over already high Lake Bay makasa so there are issues going on here that you know we talk about the wall wall factor it's not about these buildings I call it the surprise factor I try to follow what goes on in the city and I get broadsided occasionally didn't you know that it was buried somewhere we got to stop that by asking the right questions all the time and that includes the Americans with Disabilities Act thank you thank you very much all right looks like we got another person here yeah good evening Kevin Oak 7305 Cornelia drive so I live on the street that Norah was just talking about where traffic cuts through from 100 or from 70th down to Cornelia over on 72nd Street where we're dumping all this traffic on this development onto the point I wanted to make is there's no right there's no way to go north from 72nd onto France so all that traffic is going to go towards the neighborhood coming in or leaving that development so that's something that's got to be addressed right because there's already heavier traffic than you know in the 20 years i' I've lived there with people cutting off 7th down Cornelia front of the school then heading um eastbound on 72nd Street so the the in andout office 72nd Street is the issue that I've got right and so you know I I appreciate very much that we got rid of the the the um the retail aspect and the that kind of of stuff I think that's the right direction but the the concern that I've got and I think most of my neighbors right is is just that traffic flow that's dumping on from this property right onto to 72nd if we can get them on to Gallagher there's an intersection right it's traffic controlled better but anything coming out of that place it's either going to go westbound on 72nd up to cornelian on a 70th Street to get to 100 or it's going to go up linmar to get to Hazelton to then go Northbound on on France so that's just what I want to make sure that we consider that as part of because this is you know I think this is the right direction we need to have something there but it's just that traffic flow that's my concern so thank you thank you very much anyone else here in person I'd like to testify please come up seeing none and it's been maybe 10 minutes or so do we have anyone in the queue no we don't think we're good to move on from that all right I guess I'd welcome a motion to close the public hearing motion to close second all those in favor say I I I so moved public hearing is closed taking it back to the Planning Commission to deliberate I guess who wants to spark the conversation we could go down in line unless we have questions for each other I mean are there any questions that have come up yeah okay right got one all right are there any no all right Lou what I'd like to start by addressing some of the points that were just brought up recently by people who were here oh well they're gone um so one of them is the uh transition zone right so they talked about the transition zone and this is in the Southdale sorry this is in the Southdale experience guidelines um and so I'm reading from page 21 and it's literally talking about um this area so the west prominade and so it says as Illustrated in the section above with this transition zone building Heights will step up incremental incrementally from those that are adjacent to single family homes right so so this happened in in our neighborhood Commissioner of Health in my neighborhood um at Sunny Side of France by a project by uh Mr Carlson where um thean has and you were on the small area plan there so the laurant actually is adjacent to single family homes and it steps down to the the height of single family homes so this project has this big gap between well they're not here anymore but this project has a big gap um which is the pond or whatever whatever that's called um so in in a previous iteration of of this plot you know there was talk about having buildings there and that were you know smaller in height so the thing is nothing is being built next to a single family home with this project so in terms of the transition zone I believe this is meeting the the essence of of the requirement for that um the other things that were brought up um you know local traffic so there's something in transportation called induced demand so if you're worried about congestion and you build more lanes and you widen a street or whatever um then you induce demand and you get more traffic there than you had before so you know building more streets and I don't think anyone wants to widen 70th Street anyway but building more streets building more Lanes encouraging more traffic is is not the way to go um another topic that was brought up was missing middle and missing middle is something that um doesn't really belong in Southdale or at least most of Southdale so Southdale even more so than our other commercial districts is um you know we have our cute little downtown with this which is 50th in France then we have like our our downtown downtown uh business downtown and that's Southdale and that is our one place especially between France and New York where we can build um you know significantly tall buildings um and not be anywhere near a single family family home or or um have anything that's you know inappropriate to to a a small neighborhood so um so missing middle is something that you would want um you know at the edges of our where we have our small area plan so 44th in France 50th in France that sort of thing at the very edges of that and that's sort of like a transition zone where you have housing that fits two families three families four families five or six families something like that um and so again that on France Avenue you know that's missing middle is not really appropriate between Highway 62 or the cross town and you know the south end of of ad on France Avenue so it's not really appropriate there um it is appropriate in other places in the city and we do need to build it we're not um you know in terms of climate change you know she mentioned that there was uh we just had the hottest day um on the planet um which was PR deeded by the hottest day on the planet so yes that's a huge issue and we do need to address that and we need to address you know a housing issue we have in the city and in the metro area and in the entire country actually um and the way you address climate change changes by building more density and having more people in an area so that you're not continually building into the ex herbs and taking more farmland and more more green space and more forests and converting them into single family family homes so we are addressing climate change by doing projects like these so and and they do have lots of trees and the city requires that so there's there's plenty of Green Space there so so I I think that addresses some of the concerns that came up uh Mr Teague is the is there a traffic consultant still on I don't know his name so I can't ask yes I believe he is the voice of God yes uh question about um uh or the testimony from the public hearing about the left turn or the Northbound turn on to France Avenue from 72nd Street uh I had not realized that that was not currently possible and the main entrance and exit to the 7200 France Avenue ramp is going to be on to 72nd Street and I can easily see how if I was trying get to rout at 100 or anywhere to the east or excuse me to the west of here I would be sorely tempted to drive right through R1 neighborhoods I wonder if it um are there suggestions that you could be made that you could make or that we should study to uh improve the likelihood improve the access to France Avenue Northbound and southbound from 72nd Street that would reduce impact on the on the single family homes to the West well access to southbound France is immediate yes on 72nd Street so that's not an issue um in my opinion the connection that's being constructed between 72nd and Gallagher is the shortest distance to get to France Avenue I don't know why anyone would go west around the block to go to the north on France I mean this is a short distance to get to Gallagher which is a signal to go north on France um some people may go to the West it's very similar probably less traffic in my opinion than the existing or the previous office building that was there that building had two access points on 72nd and generated more traffic than this development So currently there's no traffic doing that because there's nothing in this location but if you compare what was there before to what is being proposed the traffic will be less so there's there's going to be some traffic that goes west and that was studied in multiple uh iterations before when there were you know other um developments proposed for this project that were higher generating and there were issues and there were questions about could we cut cut off 72nd Street we make it a dead end um you know there were many things that were discussed but it's in the in the you know in the in the end it is a public Street people are allowed to use it but in my opinion it will be less impact this development than there was with the previous office building okay so you're saying daily trips in the proposed plan for 7200 and 7250 will be less than it was 10 years ago or what what in the prior use of that land yes okay thank you hey Carrie maybe you could clarify again uh I know commissioner day did a good job beforehand but coming more directly from staff um and I think maybe Again part of my recommendation for sketch plan that could have served as a buffer to kind of ease some confusion from residents as well as like potential Nays of the project but what exactly was approved as part of the Pud the Pu so it was rezoned to PUD and there was a list of uses that are permitted on the site that includes uses allowed in the pcd2 district that was to cover the retail multif Family Apartments and a hotel so those became permitted uses for both sites um there was a height regulation established within that ordinance at 72 feet you know there were setbacks all around so we're really the review before the Planning Commission this evening is a site plan review comparing this project and how it Stacks up to those requirements in the p in the Pud 16 District the one item that they don't meet with this project is that first floor Building height but you so you're asked to do a site plan review essentially the difference with the Pud in that with a PUD we incorporate a specific site plan into the ordinance so because there was no site plan approved for phase two um we needed to amend the ordinance under either circumstances just to insert the site plan within it um but there's not a lot of discretion here because they do comply with the height the setback and the uses are permitted so it's fair to say apartment building wasn't approved but any one of those number of things that conforms with the current codes could be built correct y by law yep but you you still have the ability to review the site plan and add conditions if it's to minimize impacts those types of things Landscaping that clear okay I guess I just turn it over to any other questions or clarifications yeah commissioner Smith yeah you know just to just to add to that one of the other concerns and I think it's it's so useful and and great for residents to to to attend in person and and and bring up their concerns and um even go on go online or or or dial into these calls I know it's kind of late but this kind of feedback is super valuable now the the Pud zoning just to be clear right that doesn't bypass any ADA requirements that buildings have to have right so I think that's state law right so a building the inside how it's designed that has to be ADA Compliant overall and so hopefully that addresses the internal structure now externally on the actual land itself um I'm I'm assuming here that it also doesn't preclude like us to bypass any ADA requirements like when it comes to sidewalks or spaces and so I'm just trying to you know share this with residents that ADA compliance is something that we have to comply with um for any development internally to the building and externally now clearly right there have there have been some concerns with bridges that have been built in the city that now they're under investigation but maybe that's some specific unique cases that um maybe he's outside of maybe some building um items I'm not familiar with that case but overall I think we are meeting ADA compliance when it comes to spaces around the building and spaces within the building the other point I was raised was on Tiff financing and this has always been one of those tricky things for me personally because we look at zoning we look at building we look at design we might request new things right and the developer goes back and then they say could we financially meet this or not if not we have to reach out to the city right for some kind of support and the the Housing Authority I forgot the actual name of the group but they would look at that request compare what the requirements are and determine whether or not Tiff financing is appropriate for that build and I'm sure there's a set of rules and regulations around that but essentially the Tiff question is outside of the Planning Commission and it's something that a different body looks at and so you know we could certainly bring it up here and residents could certainly bring it up here in these public fors but just to make that distinction that we have no control or influence over how the financing of of buildings go uh versus looking at design and does it meet design guidelines for the city correct and this project has already received Tiff yeah just start with comments anyone I guess anyone else have any questions for the development team or any all right yeah let's just go down with comments and then if it's appropriate to put forth a motion let's do it I don't have too many but I'll Just sh share a few thoughts I I didn't have a lot of difficulty with this project I feel really good about it and I commend you for your work um I think about you know what are what are we creating for our city here and we're creating a really great place to live uh I mean it's a particularly strong location place I'd like to live with a lot of Green Space to the West uh access to grocery entertainment coffee all the stuff we have built in Southdale over the past couple decades hopefully the underpass or the bridge or whatever it ends up being it happens I think that would only increase the value this particular location that be a fantastic place to live and that's what we're about just trying to make new Fantastic places for for ad din to live I'm particularly excited about the um shared amenities between residential and Commercial that's a rarity in our city I want to see more of that and more of that and I'm happy to start here especially the parking uh I don't have any conditions to add to this I'm sure there's some things could make it better but I think it's really good and um this WOW business I I totally agree with the sentiment in in the article or in the letter our building should be wow that's where we're aiming for I do have a really hard time knowing what that means and acting on that coaching um for me this is wow but I know that other people will have a totally different Viewpoint of it um but it looks really nice to me it's a place I'd be comfortable living and I'm I'm happy to have your work to try to create this place in AA that's all okay let me just address uh some of the concern or a concern from the um Better Together ad Dina where a number of people said that uh you know this doesn't meet the design experience guidelines and I think uh in a large part it does probably from what I said before about the transition zone um but also you know before I joined the commission there was a proposal um near here I don't think it was this site but near here to have a 20 Story Tower two 20 something story Towers on the west side of France right um I don't think this is the place for that right so um and the design experience guidelines are pretty you know intent on that that you know east of France and west of York seems to be a better place for those sort of things so um we certainly don't want 20 story Towers but a a six-story building just doesn't seem terribly out of place here um if you if you think about 50th in France where the wonderful um uh Nolan Mains was built you know that is closer uh single family homes are closer to that building than to any building here and this is a much denser area um so so I think that it it seems perfectly acceptable to me um another thing is that uh well chair Bennett said we should have had a sketch plan but um because we're just approving a site plan I mean would a sketch plan even really make sense I mean I don't know if that would make sense I just an off-hand comment I don't want to get debated about it or anything but it seems like you know and to Carrie's point or I'm sorry to uh director of planning um you know I'll point out that this is the second time that we've approved a PUD um and the other time was also a project for Mr Carlson at 70th in France the the bank US Bank um where and I guess I didn't really understand this about puds before but you know we're because we're approving the Pud we're basically approving change spot zoning right for this thing but I always assume that the site plan went with the Pud and that if the site plan wasn't built then the Pud kind of was null and void or whatever but apparently that's not the case and so it seems weird to me this process seems very weird to me because it's like we are almost encouraging developers to I mean granted it's it adds a lot of expense and I don't think this is a primary motivation but you know if you want to get a greater density in an area developer you could present a a beautiful wonderful project kind of like what we saw at 70th in France um that had affordable housing and all this wonderful stuff and then come back later and propose you know 14 story parking or whatever that was proposed and that didn't go through luckily but um or the same situation here where our hands are kind of tied we don't really have a lot of leeway and what we can approve or not approve because we're just approving a site plan so I think that's a uh it's nothing I can we can do about this particular project but I think it's a a weakness in the city's process in terms of this particular project um I do think um like commissioner Aly I think in many ways it's a nice project I mean it looks really nice it's it's the right size for this part of the Southdale District I mean I wouldn't even mind a couple stories taller but you know it's approved for 72 ft um this is a a a a really good use of that space um and you know housing is important you know uh yeah so overall I think it's it's it's a good project my my real concern is this whole connecting across 70th um with the Bikeway and making sure that you know we're not creating too convoluted a pathway to get from the 9M Creek Trail which already does a little you know dog leg to get up to uh uh the prominade um to the point where people are just going to ride their bike across France Avenue so so I am concerned about that if anything I would say um I would almost like to propose that you know we make this the variance on the 14ot height uh conditional on an easen from the bridge or tunnel to the 9M Creek Trail including an elevated crosswalk Walker table um to make it safer for for cyclist medians and make sure that they actually use the bridge or tunnel that we're building for them so that's really my only concern with this project just quick question on on that I believe some of that property is outside of the the bounds of this decision though right I mean isn't this limited to just the site plan right so I mean I think that elevated crosswalk is technically part of the office is that part of the 7250 I think it isn't it right the the landscape what is the can we get that what's up west of the office building um is not part of this project I'm not sure exactly what area you're referring to okay oh so it's just literally the plot of the so that was part of the that whole Trail and everything was part of the 7250 yeah and easements have been a state there's already public easements over that space this is just denila Plaza and the the building basically okay I just yeah I just wanted to make sure that again that that it's used I mean otherwise we're spending a huge amount of money for nothing that's my only concern all right PR good conversation I learned every time I come here from fellow Commissioners on the questions that we ask and from developers and how they present their information I think um just a couple things so the first one um you know uh I'm certainly very sensitive to Residents that live in a Cornelia neighborhood um this is one of the the neighborhoods in the city that is very close to where a lot of the activi is happenening the Southdale area is expanding it's growing new development is coming in in and the folks who live in the cornelian neighborhood are probably experiencing the brunt of these new development and so I'm very sensitive and appreciate all their concerns what they have to go through um which is why I think any new development it's wise for developers to get that buying from Neighbors and residents meet with them share the ideas share what they're trying to do and get as much feedback as possible so I think this team did that and I appreciate that and I think you guys have some more meetings coming up with residents and so as transparent as you could be about what you're trying to do the purpose Etc would be super valuable and always have that available um you know as a planing commission we certainly have to uh like tonight you know we don't have much leeway on what we could decide to do right and we try to stay as close as we can to the design experience guidelines for what what to look at right and when we look at transitions like uh commissioner Miranda shared about you know these things are met and it's happening you know residents may not feel that but we try to stick to what's on the paper right what's what's for this space and how much yard it is you know from height and distance to the resident property and making sure that that transition makes sense and I think this meets that and so there's certainly some opportunities in the future as we do comprehensive plan updates to maybe revisit some of of that if folks are really feeling pinched that these buildings are too close to my house and it's too high and that we have the opportunity to to to do that and so you know certainly keep bringing it forward but just want to share that I'm very sensitive to that but we're trying to stick to what we're mandated to to look at with regards to this building I think um it's a very fine building I think it meets all the requirements that we looked at the last time just a little bit concerned about the activation taking away the retail space and Commercial uh I think to reduce traffic and maybe from some some cost concerns and maybe some if you could even lease it out for that purpose are valid right but activation I think is going to be something that uh I'm not super sure we're going to see that right like the pictures tell one thing you look at the images everyone looks happy they're Gathering but why are they there right why am I coming to this spot you know what am I doing I'm you know am I just moving through or am I actually lingering to do something fun right and that's kind of hard to do if there's nothing to attract someone into that space right if I want to have coffee with my friends great there's the south location that has a coffee shop but I'm am I going to walk all the way up North to the northern point of this property to drink that coffee no that'll be done by the time I got there and so thinking about how to keep that area activated and what actually turns out in reality is something that I'll be looking at but that's how it's hard to predict sometimes so that's one of my con concerns um the height right so going from 16 ft to 14 ft and good explanation you guys answered all the questions right you answered all the questions um what's practical you know you could have 95% let's say of different uses in a space with a head clearance of 11.5 ft you know if you subtract away all the duct work and all these kind of things and I think that makes practical sense right um but we did say that too when it was 16 ft right now we took it down to 14 and design guidelines say 20 so it seems like we're going in this shorter direction right so maybe it's a question for the Planning Commission for us to think about you know how low is too low right like if a next developer comes in and says hey you know I can take this down to 13 ft and we can still do everything like when are we going to say ah that doesn't make sense now you know so it's maybe something for us to think about the key thing for me here was just the reference point of the other building that had it at 14 ft and that worked out well so I'm like this probably would also work out well so I think that got the pass for me so I'm in favor the last part of course is the connection with France I think that's a big one um um you know I heard two different things I heard uh I think it was Ted very confident that we'll do what we can and I think I heard maybe I think it was maybe Arie if I'm not mistaken kind of had like uh you know we'll figure it out when we get there kind of thing um I think whatever the city does uh in approving this just be really clear on if we do build a connection under France that is really clear who's responsible for what and how that's going to come together right to the resident who was talking earlier right the last thing that we want is a surprise to say we didn't say that we didn't say we going to accommodate this bridge like you know this kind of stuff and then there's a fight and then cost and litigation and the cities and debt so be really clear about yes yes it's not there today but it might be there in the future design it in a way that it makes it Bridge ready or some kind of agreement that whatever path we take over or under it could still flow through this site right and connect both sides so just thinking about that ahead of time so we don't get into a situation in the future and you know I guess no pun intended but we cross that bridge when we get there right so that's it keep it short and sweet I mean I think the Project's good for the city especially if we're trying to make more housing makes South more dense district and I think this project meets it especially if our main criteria here is 2 feet on the ceiling height all right I also try to stay concise as possible um I mean I spent a lot of time going over this project in the last few days and where I kind of ended up is that there is a big gap um between where we are and where I wish we were um so let's start where we're at right so as I reiterated multiple times already uh this PUD District was approved on you know as function in October of 2022 right and the apartment complex Hotel retail element you know all those were allowed uses was part of the Pud um so I was not part of that discussion in 2022 um so I mean there's really no no recourse on that that was made part of the Pud um you know so I think of findings a fact and there's again there's no really there's not a lot of discretion here in terms of do we say yes or no do we like it that's not really relevant um in this discussion uh so it's you know from a legal standpoint for us to say now this doesn't meet the site plan or it doesn't conform with the overall development plan I mean I would think the developer would strongly disagree based on what the guidance that they received on October 22 if we were to reject this that we'd have any legal standing to do so or any really good standing to do so um so that's where we're at right so you know and I think now so I go get into where I wish we were um and a lot of that comes from discussion with residents um over the last few days so I've talked to Cornelia residents earlier last week um and you could you could hear it the the frustration from both Norah and Sandy in terms of where what they understood the project was where in the process the project was um what the timeline looked like what discussions have already been had around impact of the community traffic you know whether those discussions were actually had right I mean you know it was concerned that we didn't discuss those things well to be fair discussions were had in October of 2022 when this decision was ultimately made to reone this to PUD uh and at the time I guess whoever was on the Planning Commission decided that the impact of the community uh you know was I guess you know not a negative thing uh traffic impacts would be negligible or you know be able to be handled Etc um but you know we were so so that you know that's those discussions were had right I wish I wish the our residents perhaps understood that a little bit more um and I think we have an opportunity with the way that this is presented um in Better Together a Dina to provide a little bit more detail on the background of this project right so as I read through better together at Dina before you got the pack packet on Friday I didn't really fully understand where we were either right and saying here this development maybe even a basic timeline in there because again it was really just you know I could see a resident understand not being able to understand has the apartment complex been approved yet what really you know are we are we discussing right and then when residen see 167 page packet that the Planning Commission gets it's really hard for them to partial through that and try to understand that right um so you know okay again where where I wish we were I wish we weren't at a point where we had this approval from 2022 because we had two Parcels one was just kind of a box with not a lot of detail and now we're getting here with detail I think it made it made it hard for our uh Planning Commission maybe to discuss that I don't again don't know what the discussion centered around um but I I wish we hadn't maybe broke that up the way we had in terms of approving you know saying here in a couple years we'll come back to this phase two maybe the phase one phase two approach is is something that we could consider doing differently um in the future um lastly you know as far as the discussion around again again where I wish we were you know if it were me in October 2022 and I saw a six-story box 150 unit apartment building I I'm not sure that I would have agreed with that as far as the best use of land here I understand the concerns from the residents about the transition zone um you know it does say in page 88 of the South B design guidelines that while much of the new housing in the area uh will likely be high entity multif family there should also be consideration of missing middle housing types that is smaller scale multif family that provides a transition between single family and high density in terms of both housing market and built form this may be particularly this may particularly be appropriate in areas adjacent to existing low density res residential neighborhoods that border the greater Southdale District in some places so I do much push back against the fact that or the sentiment that this isn't the right place for Middle missing middle or for other built forms of housing rather than six-story apartment building um and then we talked about the the uh occupancy rate and how we need to build more apartments right in terms of the housing crisis and you know I looked at looked up I wanted to dig more do more research into that and came across a article from uh SAR trib from March 1st of 2024 talking about development in the Twin Cities metro area and how the Southwest District um actually had the highest vacancy rate of all the metro submarket and that the um the vacancy rate in our area had hit 5.8% by the end of 2023 um which was the highest vacancy rate among six primary Suburban markets by a significant margin um and then when we adjusted for buildings that had recently opened the vacancy rate was 7.9% um and there I guess it's considered to be an even balance between buyers and sellers when there's a 5% vacancy rate and they showed a picture of mson green and talked about how they might have to start making concessions because the demand was soft so we don't just have to just build apartment buildings in order to satisfy demand for housing um and we need to consider where those apartment buildings are located and how that that housing crisis is is adjust or is addressed um so again that's I wish where we were I I would think I would hope that this would be different than the I guess what was already approved I wish there was more of so we've talked about the wild Factor um I've lived in a U-shaped Department building with a pool in the middle of the courtyard and I don't think there's anything wow about it um and when we look at again the South design guidelines Urban Innovation design goal number seven uh talks about considering every new public and private introduction as an opportunity to explore the potential for the next significant invention or innovation uh particularly well those actions enhance the experience of the district not sure this is a significant invention or innovation so you know again we're not there I wish we were I wouldn't have approved this in October 2022 but here we are and so my hands are fairly tied and so that's the way I mean wish we were here we are so that's that's where I'm at thanks commissioner Bor yeah thanks so I actually have a clarifying question for step I've been listening to all this and now I'm now I'm confused about something and I think me not being confused will kind of inform a very brief comment that I have so is the question so is the question that we're basically being asked um are we basically asked being asked to answer is the site plan consistent with the overall development plan that was approved previously yes that and the ordinance yeah and and is that the question on which we don't have much discretion correct and if the plan not consistent with the overall development plan that was approved is does that mean that we we have to vote no like is that I'm trying to understand the discretion piece like if it's not consistent are we bound to kind of vote no no if you if they came back with a completely different plan but you liked it yeah you would still have the ability to say yes you could say no also and where's everybody sort of saying well it was approved already so we don't have discretion we have to say yes we're like what I'm just trying to sort of understand where the hands are feeling like they're tied yes because we've established a zoning district for this site so they're measured against those regulations for that District in addition to other our other you know parking standards those types of things and they do they they meet the Pud ordinance and our other standards with the exception of the floor height this is kind of where I'm getting it so that the the overall development plan that was approved contained a 10,000 ft retail element right this doesn't have that correct so the question is does this is this proposal is this site plan consistent with the overall development plan and if it's missing a material element how can I vote Yes why don't I have to vote no because so was the question just is the use being proposed allowed in the Pud or is the question is the site plan consistent with the development plan that was approved yeah it one of the the background items that were included in the resolution that was approved in 2023 the final document said Phase 2 would include a similar size building in height and square footage with the future use of housing housing or hotel with or without retail okay so it was contemplated either way okay so the overall development plan didn't the project to retail it said it could have it and it could not have it correct it did mandate that they require to meet the affordable you know the 10% affordable housing which they're also complying with okay got it well that instance it seems like this is weird procedurally you know I think it would have been great if you guys could have come back for a sketch plan because like you know the retail component is kind of something that's important to some people and you know it would have been good to have a conversation about that with or without retail I guess without retail compli with that um that's the one the I thought a lot of this is great like what everybody else said surrounding Landscaping awesome um breaking the site up into smaller chunks great connectivity really good storm water featur is actually nice um The Terraces are have potential they're positive the one thing that that I thought would have been better was to have a retail component um because that space should needs to be activated for all the re that pass through space needs to be activated for all the reasons people are talking about and I'm not persuaded that by just having an apartment building without a retail component it's going to be um even if there's a small coffee function or like a shared workout space or something with the commercial business I just don't think it's going to be that activated I think it'd be much more activated if it had a retail retail component um I think the so that's that's my dig on it that the rationale for not putting retail in this building was that it would reduce traffic demand um I don't think that's a compelling rationale for not putting retail into this location uh modest reduction in traffic in this area is doesn't outweigh the benefits that activating a street level uh bring um and I think maybe there were other considerations that were actually driving the removal of the retail like the ability to place more units on the ground level or other Financial considerations um the property management Lobby has been given a prominent position in a place where a retail component maybe would have been um but again I don't think a property management office is going to activate the street level I just haven't seen that happen really in any building I don't think I I never see anybody going like like walking into the property management office if anything they look kind of empty and unused so so that's why like I think you guys can feel like the mix of like I think this is awesome I think the density is great I don't think a lot of the concerns about stepping back in the neighborhood are founded because it's separated for the Landscaping feature um but having a a more active use on the street level would have been would have been good so I'm not sure I'm going to vote thanks okay thank you for coming here um as for the site portion of this um vote tonight I am good with this site plan with the buffer the West um in the water retention Pond and I like the fact that you're going to maintain it um I think that'll keep um it looking good I like danilla Plaza um I like how you thought through the parking and the sharing of the parking between the two spaces um I think that street is cleaner in the back um I like the sidewalk in the back I like that it does kind of continue on um so I'm good with this site and I am good with the twoot um variance in terms of the height um I agree with commissioner Miranda that density especially in this area is um is good with all the entertainment in the retail and the restaurants um having more housing I think um is fantastic um you know this is also at the end of the Eline and one of the ways ways we kind of limit um um you know additional vehicle miles traveled or VMT like the carbon emissions is is getting residential dense residential close to bus lines and that is going to be a fantastic bus line I've said it before and I'll say it again if I I do ride the six bus when I get a chance I have a car and I leave it at home once in a while um or ride my bike and um try and get out of it so any any opportunity we have of stop of not getting in our cars is good and because there's so much in this area people can if we figure out how people can walk safely across France Avenue um this is good so I do want to talk a little bit about this tunnel when I see that image of going underneath and and France just being this freeway for cars it makes me anxious I would rather have a stoplight on every block and get cars going slower um so I I'm not too sure how I'd rather see um I'd rather see solving that pedestrian issue in another in another way but that's not part of this project and um I also appreciate all the residents engaging and reading the uh design area guidelines and being part of the process it is all an education process and so I'm good with this um I agree with commissioner Maryweather uh the underground thing as a woman and just because it's under a highway makes me anxious I'd rather have a stop sign um similarly with commissioner binstein if I was in charge of the world um I would have preferred retail but I I do hear that you listen to the neighbors and the neighbors complain about uh on the traffic and I think that's valid I would challenge you as um for those of you who don't know I'm a developer in my day job um I would challenge you to look into the occupancy I don't think things are performing in real time the way that maybe the market and the data says they should um anything built since 2019 um bow being a perfect example is closer to 60% occupancy so maybe the Market is saying what a Dina needs and we need all kinds of more housing but in this moment maybe it's something other than luxury one and two bedrooms maybe we're getting more families I love that you have um outdoor access for each of your units not all of your competitors do and that you can have those dog owners walk right out kid people are having dogs not babies these days so I think that that's really smartan of um of the time um I'm a little um I may have developed one of the projects that was shown tonight that cornelian neighborhood is uh very passionate and involved about development and um I love that and respect that they are going to be your biggest enemy and also your greatest Ally I really appreciate I think Kevin's still sitting back there thank you for coming and understanding that the world is a bunch of P pull and push and pull and you don't get some of the wow um straight out the box I mean Centennial and and all of that didn't happen in one development or in One Vision or in one PUD it was an evolution and um I'm having just a real hard time with the othering of people who live in apartments they are a Dina residents they deserve to be here as much as anyone else they may not prioritize what some people do which is single family homes and um some of the comments from this whole discussion tonight really kind of rubbed me the wrong way I think we have a housing crisis people want to live here unless we're going to close our Bo you know our doors and say we don't want to expand as a city the only way we expand is through more density on our otherwise landlocked City so um I commend you for engaging with the neighborhood I hope you do more of that as an Adina resident and as a developer I hope you guys can go the extra mile and help educate everyone Tiff is really complicated I'm sure it's not how you're budgeting to pay for the storm sewer because you're not allowed to but the average Joe doesn't know that um traffic is hard to manage and yes I'm sure that apartment building has been empty for a really long time but some actuary says traffic is going to be less how we communicate those messages as a developer in our city is challenging so I hope you can help all of us do that um I think you've done some incredible things here again I'd like to say um it's commendable to you guys that you're taking the time to work with the city on an possibility that's a sort of a no balls chance in hell um of happening with going under France or over France so that costs you time and money and I appreciate you doing that because I think it can make um make the whole area better I would have loved retail that would have been my initial out the door option um but I'm going to vote enthusiastically yes for this all right thank you sh some comments I yeah I pretty much Echo support it was uh great presentation and what you guys are proposing is going to be very nice when it's there it looks very nice it's adding to the housing stock I think all the a lot of the concerns that I feel like you know most of the Commissioners brought up and residents you know they're they're concerns that have been vetted back in 2022 honestly minus something I'll get into later uh you know that transition to the neighborhood of the missing middle housing would have been perfect where that storm water Pond was but like that is fulfilling a different purpose for the site and kind of the neighboring area and we did talk about that at length back in 2022 that would have been a perfect spot for said missing middle which would have then created a nice transition to the taller building along France but with that significant buffer it's actually going to be pretty nice for residents walking up to France it's going to add to instead of walking by housing you're going to have kind of like a nice you know Park that you're walking by and I remember people laughing when I was saying hey let's make a pleasant experience walking along France one day uh you know when I first started on the commission but it's projects like these that need to keep setting the bar high so what I see that I like a lot is when you just look at the site plan there are a lot of sidewalks a lot of design a lot of lot of interesting components a lot of landscaping a lot of points of interest in that public realm that make it very nice and I I would say my only knock is like I I feel like you're losing the potential to activate and use those spaces to the fullest and my other knock is I think strategically not doing a sketch plan review doesn't give you the best project because you lose all the feedback from us as well as residents and the council that you could otherwise incorporate even if it's subtle tweaks those little things can mean a lot and I mean you did that for the hotel like that that was allowed so we saw a sketch plan for that I think I would have expected to see a sketch plan for whatever you were going to do so that would be my knock on it other wise I think it's going to be a great addition to the city um just the lack of activation or retail there is something I'm struggling about cuz you have this awesome visibility along France lots of people are going to see what's there and you have the potential to bring people there but if it's just somewhere to live and work people aren't going to go out of their way naturally to check it out and maybe that's what you want and the residents want and that's okay on that side of France and I think that's what I'm what I'm I'm okay with with um that Balancing Act especially understanding the neighbors and kind of the layout of that block you're are going to be sending people West on 72nd and the addition of the potential tunnel I know you guys talked originally about potentially linking these buildings you know the garages where you could share use that way and obviously that's off the table if there's a tunnel going through there I I personally think if that did go through there it would ruin your site in way more ways than it benefits your site um and so I'm concerned about just the cost and expense to do something that potentially ruins two different awesome projects where we could settle for maybe a more aggressive at grade crossing so just want to get that out there I support your site where it is how it is I think if a tunnel cut through there and lowered that grade 20 feet it's not what's denila plaz anymore you know Bridges across um I don't think any of us would like to see that so um that's a yeah bridge will cross when we get there but thank you so much uh I think I'll welcome a motion unless there's any other questions or comments motion to recommend the city of council approve the site plan and ordinance Amendment second let's just do roll call vote commissioner Aly hi commissioner Miranda I commissioner Smith I commissioner day I commissioner Bornstein I commissioner phelp I commissioner hanaman I chair Bennett I well I guess I didn't need to do that all right motion carries great good luck with your project and wish the best for you guys there's any tweaks you can make between now and city council that benefit this mutually I'd encourage you to do so and hope you have a great night thank you guys all right so thank thankfully uh commissioner Miranda postponed the reports and recommendations he knew this was going to happen Miranda yeah all right um usually SE along France is the subject of late nights I mean most of them have gone late and rightfully so these are Big projects that have big change Ren all over them so uh turn it over to chair and member comments so yeah let me just talk about potential areas of change real quickly um so we made a lot of progress in the last 24 hours I was hoping to jump start it by putting it on the calendar um and but we didn't get to the to the finish line that or whatever so I don't want to have a a meeting where we're spending hours with everybody picking apart everything whatever we need to come to a decision amongst ourselves present the plan to you guys ask for your feedback and modify it so rather than like everyone do it together the whole point of having a committee is to do that so so I'm going to push really hard to make sure that um all of us participate in that make sure that gets done for the next meeting um in terms of the Lincoln and London area small area plan um L sorry could you I guess could you explain for the rest of us and whoever is tuning in what are you delivering we are delivering well I could read it um well we are delivering a list of areas that are um likely to change or have the potential to change um and we're delivering a prioritized list which we're going to do rather than numbered 1 through 10 or whatever we're going to say you know near-term medium-term long-term um just to make it easier and because their order could change for a variety of reasons um and then a list of you know names of these regions and um their boundaries approximate boundaries we're going to get to get too specific because that's what a project itself is for um and then the rationale the the city policies and plans that make uh that drive our decision to show these particular places as areas of change so to be clear here you know and I think I mentioned this last time but you know we're not talking about you know upzoning the entire city to 20 story Towers or anything we're not even talking about obing the entire the entire city so we're talking about specific areas of the city most of which or basically all of which are commercial already and so um but guiding both from developer interests City plans and policies the um uh the comprehensive plan um the climate action plan you know all these things build into okay developer interest you know all these things build into what we want to study in the future so so we have our you know our five small area plans and then the big uh Southdale area but there are smaller areas that we think you know would need a little bit of Interest I guess what I was asking you know we had that student presentation out of nowhere that seemed to kind of like deliver a lot of parallels I'm sure that we'll see uh but what was nice about it is just like the visual like understanding and reacting versus a list and then just when I was thinking of when I've been thinking about this I just I want to just get other feedback too before it's presented to like it you know CU we want this to be good to act upon uh one thing that what the students did that I thought was nice as I was thinking more about it was it allowed you to also fill in between and see like maybe not not all of these small areas as like disparate unique isolated areas like you mentioned you know like how do these connect to the bicycle plan The Pedestrian plan the the regional Network and so I don't know like if it's with it or maybe in concert with it you know how they perceived kind of corridors of change and you've mentioned that too um but thinking you know of like this isolated area by this one and it's connected in certain ways that people get to and fro it seems like there there'd be a lot of benefit um with any kind of synergy that happens with change you know and it just got me thinking of like you know if we're talking about these areas I think we need to also talk about what connects them and is that sure is that part of it or can it be visualized give away all our secrets all right sorry I'm not gonna have anything to announce um but yeah I mean we're we're we're incorporating we've Incorporated two corridors which the city you know the city has small area plans but no no concept of corridors and other cities have concepts of corridors and again to give it away but it's you know we're not doing anything like radical okay so France clearly is a corridor we're getting uh uh brt Transit on it it's coming next year it'll be ready next year so we kind of need to think about that right so that's a quarter that connects Southdale 50th in France beet no no so that's a north south Corridor and will you need an East West Corridor right and something other than a freeway and so um Vernon is the obvious example for that and that's another thing that we'll be talking about um and we do PL you know it's it's a t so the one of the things we were struggling with when we talked to Addison about this is you know what what do we present you know so the city has a template for what you present but we have all these ideas uh commissioner day commissioner felt and um commissioner P thank you um she's not here and uh all wrote and I you know wrote something about the projects that we were assigned to whatever so we we'll have an appendix that will have more detail okay stuff okay so it's is going to be like a table we do have a table but we're going to have a map we're going to have textual descriptions you know so we're going to have a we're going to have a story okay to do open m yeah no and that's the thing we don't really have that today we have the parts to it but it's not all written as one cohesive thing which is my job and I'll be doing but we we didn't have necessarily agreement on everything or at least sure we didn't know if we had agreement or not but I think we do and so it's just a matter of getting that all out so thank you so yes and then so lincol and lary uh where was I so um we have another committee meeting tomorrow night we we have an internal meeting um tomorrow morning and then a that I attend and then a a group meeting tomorrow night um which will be our third meeting um and then actually I would ask Commissioners felt and day what we also had popups um uh three popups where we try to interact more with the community with people who didn't attend previous meetings that we had so if you guys have any comments on what you thought the experience was whether we reached out to the proper people you know any feedback you guys have would be really nice to have if you if you have any sure I'm um as far as the pop-ups go I was at one Maryweather you at all three I think yeah so at least my experience with the pop-up that we had um at Walnut Ridge Park was very positive I think we talked to maybe 20 30 people I I think we gave a few postcards to some uh parents that were watching over their kids playing soccer so they didn't really want to be bothered by us so we just said hey just let you know um but it was informative there was a lot of people that stopped by and said you know thanks thanks for doing this we appreciate you guys being out here um we just had a lot of good constructive dialogue and basically we took down a lot of ideas and feedback from residents and then collected them at the end so but it was a good opportunity anything you know and I think this is all um for me it's talking with community and kind of understanding community and kind of learning about your city and learning about your neighborhoods and learning about how this all works um you know I I participated just as a resident on too I had two very different experiences on both of those and um and I think it's it is it is a it is a two-way street it is US learning about how the City Works it is US learning about how Community works it's us learning how about how planning works and it is um sharing that information and talking to people about that um so it's good whenever we interact with the public great so yeah so I think it was a it was a great thing that the Consultants came up with is a way to reach out to Residents who we could normally reach out to so I think it I think it worked out pretty well so um and then my final thing isn't related to any particular thing but um yeah we just have the two hottest days on the planet ever so I mean I don't know I'm worried I mean nobody else seems to be worried but I'm worried and I just I just think we need to do a lot of change thank you all right I'm going to jump in with something so you know typically playing commission is a common springboard to city council so there is one of us that is about to throw their hat into the ring and I just want to give them a minute or two to just uh maybe speak about it and wish them the best of luck commiss sure day thanks I didn't ask for that by the way that's I know you would have taken it so no um all right I I mean I'll just keep it brief I you know it's why am I running um well you know I when I first joined the Planning Commission uh it was like drinking from a fire hose I mean I honestly had felt way overwhelmed feeling less so overwhelmed these days um but really I mean I just really fell in in love with the process um and really you know areas I thought we could improve I'm an engineer I guess my brain just works that way I'm thinking here's what we have here's opportunity for improvement um and you know I'm to ad in 2021 with my wife we bought our our first home here it's going to be home for the foreseeable future and I want to have a voice and shaping the community I love viina um I don't think this needs to be you know I was talking with the resident about this the other day and they're saying well you know too often in in city council campaigns people nitpick on what they don't like about a DIN and focus on all the negatives right there's a ton positive things about A din I wouldn't have said we wouldn't have settled down here if we didn't love a Dina and didn't love the city right din doesn't have to be overhauled just refined and we all have different ideas of what that means but we're in a great place to live already so there's no negativity with this and anything in that in that regard me saying you know oh my gosh I think we need to tear it all down and build it back up but obviously there's things I think we can do better and um yeah we can address those small gaps but a dino is wonderful place to live and I'm looking forward to talking to more and more residents it's already been an extremely uh good learning opportunity great and then it sounds like Carolyn Jackson and James they're they're going to run also so it'll be a a good good Battle of the wits but it's nice to see other planning Commissioners you know taking that leap like K agu did she's now on city council too so figured I'd share that it's fun news is anyone else going to throw their hat in the ring I don't know about all right well if so best of luck to you and oh Carrie moving the Dina the final filing date is August 13th so we won't know anything for sure until then but I had two two quick comments all right um or one one's a question first and then a comment so I I wanted to touch back on what Claire said about the process tonight and othering of renters and what exactly that means in terms of what we discussed tonight because I can understand um of the Better Together Adina feedback right talked about not wanting more transient residents in Adina that's a very deliberate and and negative thing to say against renters um but as far as the discussion amongst the commission tonight I'm not sure where that came from okay all right I guess I don't feel like this is the appropriate place to necessarily respond but um we talk a lot about density and the bad thing that is density and then we have these goals of providing more housing and we have climate action plans which say we need more density so um it's I think it's important for us to remember that even the oldest parts of AD Dina had multif family housing and um the the missing middle isn't just missing single family middle and more than 75% of our city is dedicated to that exclusive use and it often comes um at a it is ranked as the highest and most important use that we need to preserve and so when we talk about areas of change and uh development projects we often um I think lose sight of the fact that some of the reasons for the comp plan for Zoning for some of those larger strategic things are that they are social goods that we as a city need and just because um an individual or a group of individual residents of today in a Dina don't like it that I think that's doing a disservice to our job because they could move tomorrow and here we have made a decision based on voices of of a of a minority of of people and I think we have to remind ourselves of of the tyranny of the minority because we in ad Dina have a very long convoluted expensive plan for development for any kind of development it it takes a lot of money a lot of equity a lot of stamina to get through our process um PUD or otherwise and um I think if we don't respect how much effort those people are bringing to the table then we aren't respecting the people who are trying to make our community and bring us those social goods um we're just doing a disservice so that that's the position that I come from I'm obviously a little passionate because that's what I do for a living but um whether it's traffic whether it's they they don't we don't want them in our neighborhood like that's I mean it's all coded language our schools are going to be overrun our our roads are going to be it's it's coded language for I don't want people who have different values from me or different Lifestyles for me and if if that's what the city really believes and I think we're doing a disservice to our history which has always been more open more inclusive and had a variety of individuals be present and so um yeah yeah that that's I think what I have to say Okay extremely well said um I 100% agree I just you know I just worry sometimes about when we talk about when we debate individual projects on their individual merits that those in that those I'm allowed to keep speaking um that those that those that those that oppose right are potentially you know painted in a negative light is simply you know they don't want to see others they don't like afford like they're against affordable housing or so on and so forth it's just I mean it also becomes right so it's the characterization of that individual push back sometimes I don't want that to get um mischaracterized as people just saying that they just don't want certain people of a certain type or certain background or anything in the community we debate projects and say do we think this development in this specific area based on the comp plan is appropriate and I mean I think are good discussions to have and it doesn't come from a bad a bad place a deep-seated place a lot of people okay go ahead one of the reasons we had the popup at the load in is because renters do not show up we don't get feedback from renters so we went there and spent two hours and we had to go out on the pool deck and approach them individually because they did not come to the popup oh jeez and they pay taxes and they vote and they are residents OFA yeah so I mean so the followup to the question was was really going to be so I I think we can um just do better verus planning what's that planning planning I'm not campaigning so talking about uh planning right so that really just the the development review process so when we talk about those people that come back and speak strongly against the process right I think sometimes that comes from just their misunderstanding of what's going on and they just don't feel informed or they feel left out right so our comprehensive plan we we talk about the development review process is often a place where public comes most contact with land use guidance at the city level and educational elements to help inform the development review process can build public knowledge and improve outcomes so we can improve I think our outcomes and improve the dialogue in the city if people feel more informed and I think that's just ultimately I asked the question CU I wanted to get to this point to say you know the discussion we had tonight with some of the residents is because they didn't feel they were so felt really confused felt really frustrated and I don't think it came from I just really hate this project but they felt frustrated by it and so I think we just have an opportunity to be more transparent and Democratic and stuff with people and we've talked about this on the Planning Commission plenty of times right in terms of we got the development review map on better together at Dina this particular summary of this project could have used a timeline potentially and so I just you know as in clarifying before we did community comment what are we actually voting on right this is important step so that's all I was really trying to get at is I think we can get better dialogue more constructive dialogue and erase some of that animosity if we make sure that we're very clear in what we're doing and the city is very deliberate in that I know it's late and I know we have to go but I did promise someone to make a mention um so I want to give a lot of kudos to officer Darren Davis uh Idina PD um we had like a community get together a few weeks ago and he came out he's championing this idea where um after one year of service if officers could get one week of just PTO time uh just time to be home with their families um it's a very stressful job being a police officer and so uh he's trying to Champion this idea I think he has all the paperwork together he wants to get it in front of city council so I hope that city council gets to see this I told him I'll bring it up in my Planning Commission meeting I think it's a very wonderful idea he's expecting his I think second child pretty soon here and he's like Quincy man I would love to just be home for one little time just to kind of hang out and just be dad but it's a very busy job so just wanted to give him some uh some props uh and share this with city council if they ever watched this that uh he's trying to push this this idea and I think it's a great one that's great any there comments just a reminder for the work session August 14th and I'll uh work through with chair Bennett on the topics we know one topic for sure is the Cannabis issue that um is coming forward we have to have an ordinance um in place by the end of this year so we'll discuss that so more to come on the work session all right well we all know the last item of business motion close a second anyone second all those in favor say I so move the meeting has been adjourned thank you all so e