[0:14] sure [0:34] all right hey there welcome everybody to the January 29th 2025 City V Planning [0:42] Commission meeting on behalf of the rest of the commission we are grateful you're here to those in person and those turn [0:50] tuning in remotely say it every time but your curiosity feedback and participation vital to this process of [0:57] we as we navigate change together here in Dina specifically regarding the ways [1:02] in which we like to use our land uh you know engagement and your [1:08] feedback matters uh we're committed to hearing your feedback before every [1:13] meeting and and considering that as we make decisions uh to recommend or [1:18] approve to recommend approval or denial toward proposals at hand uh but tonight [1:24] we don't have any of those we just have one report a sketch plan uh it is on on [1:30] our City's engagement website better together.org so check it out and if you [1:37] do have correspondence or any feedback for us send it in an email until it [1:42] becomes a formal proposal either to us as a group or to City staff and they'll [1:48] get it our way so what to expect tonight we'll call the meeting to order we'll do [1:54] a roll call we'll approve tonight's meeting agenda followed by the PR [2:00] meetings minutes after that we have our community comment period which is your chance to testify about a matter not on [2:07] tonight's agenda and you'll have three minutes to do so then we have our reports and [2:14] recommendations and there's just one of them and it's the sketch plan review for 5516 Vernon Avenue after that [2:23] we have our chair and member comments followed by staff comments and adjournment [2:30] so without further Ado we'll call the meeting to order then roll call commissioner El [2:38] here commissioner Padia here commissioner Smith here commissioner day here commissioner Bornstein here [2:45] commissioner felt here commissioner Henman here chair bennon here next we [2:50] have the approval of tonight's meeting agenda if there is no proposed changes I'd welcome a [2:57] motion motion to approve tonight's agenda second second all those in favor say I I I so moved next we have the [3:05] approval of the prior meeting's minutes from January 15 same [3:11] deal motion to approve the minutes second all those in favor say I I so [3:18] moved okay so next we have our community comment period And this is the chance [3:23] for anyone who is here in person to testify about anything uh not on tonight's agenda so anything but that [3:30] sketch plan review you have 3 minutes to do so you can come to either Podium when [3:36] the light turns green State your full name and address and speak your mind [3:41] when it turns red your time's up and we'll ask you to wrap it up the comments is anyone here for Community comment [3:52] period all right minus the applicants I see one person shake their head no so I [3:57] think we're safe to move on from that okay so without any public hearings tonight we jump right to the reports and [4:04] recommendations so what's a little different with this compared to the public hearings is this is the chance [4:11] for the city and the applicant team and us to kind of be a little more proactive [4:16] with a potential project where this where the planning commission's role here is to provide non-binding feedback [4:24] to the applicant about a potential project before they then submit for a [4:30] formal application which then triggers the 60-day rule and period where we have [4:35] 60 days to make a decision and a vote at city council level and that is the [4:41] public hearing process uh where staff under goes a report but staff still [4:46] takes a look at this they provide a quick presentation turn it over to the applicant team to kind of do the same we [4:53] have you know back and forth Q&A and then we provide some non-binding feedback to the team [5:00] and planner Teague take it away excellent thank you chair members of the commission so as mentioned this is at [5:07] located at 5516 Vernon Avenue it's straight west of City Hall it's located [5:13] south of Highland School the property and the whole surrounding area here is zoned R1 single [5:22] dwelling unit district it's guided in our comprehensive plan for low density [5:28] residential you can see the large school property to the north there's uh a [5:34] wetland and some Park property to the east here's an aerial shot of the site [5:41] note that there is a similar size parcel to the east 558 the site we're looking at here today [5:48] is about 38,000 Square fet in size just a quickly hit on setbacks the [5:56] existing house is about 140 feet back the property to the east [6:02] 127 the single family homes in the area are quite close to Vernon you can see 15 [6:08] feet 15 and 18 those are rough just taken off the aerial uh photo aerial um [6:15] henip and county maps here's a look at the existing site you can see this is the house we're [6:22] looking at this evening so what the proposal is is to [6:27] tear down that single family home and build two duplexes or town home uh [6:33] structures on the site one access off of Vernon they would be about 3,000 square [6:40] fet in size twostory uh four bedroom four bath owner occupied uh housing [6:48] units so with a formal application we would need to amend the comprehensive [6:53] plan to regu the site to low density attached housing that's where most of [6:59] our duplexes are guided low density attached uh a rezoning from R1 to prd2 [7:06] planned residential district to and a site plan review that would go along with that and potentially a variance [7:13] I'll get into that in a second but when you look at our PRD standards vast majority of them are met [7:20] setbacks are met minimum uh lot area per dwelling unit is 7300 Square ft and with [7:28] this quite large large property it's uh a little over 9,000 square ft 9,000 [7:33] square ft as you know is our minimum lot size in the in the R1 district one thing that at least I don't [7:41] believe in all of my time here we've talked about usable lot areas within the [7:47] PRD zoning District we haven't had any requests to rezone to that zoning District but what that is is usable area [7:56] that's usable to the residents but not in included in the required setback [8:01] areas so the area that I highlighted here in green that would be their usable [8:07] lot area and you need at least 1500 square feet per unit this unit four would be [8:16] about 20 and again these are just rough estimates um based on the site plan that we have unit four would be code [8:23] compliant unit three would be slightly under the 1500 and units one and two are [8:29] around around 1100 square ft but again there would be uh quite ample Green [8:34] Space outside of that that area so there could be a variance there uh issues to [8:40] consider um while the properties all adjacent are zoned [8:46] R1 these two sites are somewhat unique the single family homes to the West are [8:53] somewhat isolated with a row of trees we saw in the photo we've got the school to [8:59] the north North there's that large Wetland to the East and then Vernon [9:04] Avenue on the south so the existing land use plan as I [9:10] mentioned is guides the property for low density residential the amendment would [9:15] allow the low density attached residential so there is some property so [9:23] here's the site that we're looking at to the West the old Vernon development to [9:29] the West this is guided low density attached residential and it has a prd2 [9:36] zoning to it this development was rezoned from R1 to prd2 in [9:44] 1997 it was guided in our comprehensive plan at that time however for low [9:49] density attached housing there's also a couple of duplexes here along this is a um [10:00] Highwire electrical easement it I believe the railroad goes through here as well these are a couple of duplexes [10:06] that were built in the 60s and 70s uh those also are guided low density attached residential so again most of [10:13] our duplexes along France the busy arterial roadways have that [10:19] designation uh this is could be considered missing Ming middle housing this isn't affordable housing but it's [10:27] providing again that that cluster housing that that can be considered a missing middle so I will stop there [10:34] answer any questions that you may have and the development team here is ready to make a presentation as [10:41] well thank you Carrie uh any questions fellow Commissioners for [10:48] Carrie oh come on there's got to be one all right uh let's start with Maryweather she had she beat you [10:55] barely can you go back over the um [11:01] usable lot area for the and that's in that goes with the prd2 that [11:08] goes with the prd2 zoning yes okay could you just run through it again sure it's [11:13] area that could be used for residents that doesn't include the required [11:20] setback area so you can see here this is the required setback area it also [11:25] doesn't include I didn't mention this before it doesn't include parking and drive AES so that's excluded so it's [11:31] really looked at as Green Space usable for the residents and why do we have [11:37] that as part of the PRD too I don't know the history behind [11:43] that it's just it's new and do we have it for any other just the PRD zoning [11:52] districts but no other residential has it correct [12:04] that was my question as well can you could you so could you I [12:10] sorry could you go back to the slide with the differences between R1 and prd2 [12:17] okay so could you build a single family home in a [12:22] prd2 Zing District or no like I I'd have to check what's outow [12:29] in that District I believe it talks about housing [12:35] units oh I I'll have to check the exact definition I was just trying to figure out if that's like a more inclus a [12:40] broader and more inclusive category or just like a different category than I think it's up [12:46] to six units clustered together but i' I'd have to double [12:56] check I think we still need to talk some more about this cuz I'm not getting it yet so on this on the compliance table [13:02] it says 11,00 to 2100 what's the [13:08] 2100 it's just my rough calculation calculating the Green Space [13:14] here here and here and I just measured to this point here so all of this green [13:21] space is 2100 for these two units it was about [13:27] 1,00 and again I just drew a line L here calculated the square footage of this [13:32] area and this area do we know is the expectation that this is going to be [13:37] subdivided or what I would imagine it would be a town home plat so it could be [13:45] well I guess might be a question for the applicants we haven't gone into the to the detail but a cic type town home [13:51] plant that would be located along the basically the the building walls there [13:58] could be they could be extended I guess to the lot line where each unit would so that [14:04] was yes it is going to be subdiv it would be sub okay so the TW because each [14:10] of the four units has the same footprint but you're saying each unit has different amounts of open area around it [14:18] not counting Drive aisles or setback [14:27] right okay okay I think I got that one other [14:33] question um you know [14:38] in missing middle is a a term that means different things to different people and [14:43] I have a question about another term that's kind of like that what what what is a D's definition of [14:49] spot zoning we don't have a specific Edina definition of spot zoning um you know we [14:58] have along busier roads we have [15:04] duplexes whether that's considered spot zoning located right next to a single family home I would interpret a spot [15:12] zoning it's a land use that's just not compatible with adjacent properties with [15:18] a prd2 zoning with essentially two duplexes I wouldn't think that's I [15:26] wouldn't consider that spot zoning [15:31] okay thanks one [15:38] option as we move forward and the applicant has had some conversations with the property owner to the east but [15:45] it would make sense to ruide both Parcels to that low density [15:51] attached the single family home at 5508 could Remain the comprehensive plan talks about single family homes being [15:58] allowed uh wouldn't necessarily rezone it at that time but it would a single family [16:05] home zoned R1 would still be considered consistent with the comprehensive plan [16:10] for low density attached because it mentions single family homes but it would give them the [16:16] opportunity in the future to rezone potentially for something similar as [16:21] what's proposed here this evening so just something to think about as we discuss this [16:27] one and even though we are going to repat and subdivide we're keeping it as [16:34] the proposal is to keep it as prd2 because the site's not large enough to [16:40] accommodate two PRD 1es each with a [16:47] duplex uh you're talking 5508 also oh I I was talking about 5516 but I [16:54] guess since they're duplexes I'm a little I guess ambivalent as to why one [17:00] would need a prd2 versus a prd1 if we're going through the process of replatting [17:05] and subdividing well we have a separate zoning district for just [17:10] duplexes an R2 zoning District um there are certain standards for those types of [17:17] um duplexes you need at least 15,000 square feet each certain amount of Frontage along the road um prd2 seemed [17:26] to be the best fit here given somewhat similar to the property further furthest [17:32] west um I didn't run R2 [17:37] calculations in terms of setback and those kind of things okay thanks would it would it be because of the size [17:43] because PRD you have to have a minimum lot area of 10,500 ft per dwelling unit [17:48] I think we would be for one correct yep that's why we [17:54] would want prd2 over yep over one okay [18:01] and then you know it's just I always have this handy um the league of Minnesota City's definition of spot [18:07] zoning because it's discussed a lot at the city council level um but they always the four points that they make or [18:13] three points really this the practice of giving a parcel of land special privileges that are different from the [18:18] surrounding area when it's an unreasonable or arbitrary application of zoning and when it creates an island of [18:25] non-conforming use that significantly reduces the value of the property or surrounding properties right so just [18:31] something to keep in mind here mhm for sharing that will you like so [18:38] when is the the re the plan to update the comprehensive plan happening again [18:44] you what's the timeline on that yeah so in my thinking here is and this to be [18:51] discussed but really like to get through that zoning ordinance update in the next two years once we complete that I would [18:58] Envision starting the comprehensive plan in [19:04] 2027 right at the start of the Year we're supposed to have them completed by December [19:10] 31st of [19:16] 2029 we have we would have two years to complete it yeah that's a that said also [19:21] met council at least the last two comprehensive plans that I've been here for we've requested an extension for an [19:29] additional year so if we go over that's [19:37] okay questions for Carrie I guess I I think you alluded to [19:44] it with including the other property on one of your slides it looked like you did show both properties rezoned [19:51] potentially or reg guided guided right I was going to and then I think Claire had [19:57] a great question and I I don't know if you could help further make the distinction of R2 versus [20:06] prd2 I know you kind of spoke into it but just um I think to just further [20:12] support and we can get into comments but Vernon is kind of flanked with different [20:17] densities as most busier roads so um I would maybe disagree and say prd2 [20:26] surrounded by R1 could seem like spot zoning if it's a different location like [20:33] if this were in the middle of a neighborhood I think that would feel like it would kind of violate all three [20:38] of those um so I I think location really matters here but could you speak because [20:44] then location helps influence why you do R2 versus prd2 as well sure I I can take [20:52] a quick look at the R2 and see how this project would stack up I can't remember if there's Frontage requirements for [20:59] each unit that might I'll have to double check that okay yeah where do they have [21:05] to like it' be a complicated flag pole lot situation prd2 seemed to be a good [21:11] fit here other [21:16] questions okay thank you Carrie uh now we'd like to welcome the applicant team [21:22] up you know just introduce yourselves tell us a little bit about who you are what you do and tell tell us why you [21:29] think this is a great idea all right um cool excited to be [21:37] here uh typically around this time I'm I'm like 10th rendition of a kuna matata [21:43] with the toddler so thankful to be here tonight um and then quick question just [21:48] toggle through on with this mouse is that cool yes okay sweet we got a slide for you guys to kind of uh share a [21:56] little bit about uh abundance properties um I'm Jordan Crockett um and today [22:02] we'll talk about about us a little bit The Proposal uh the plan and then we'll [22:07] walk through some questions and everything uh with you guys as well um as I mentioned my name is Jordan [22:13] Crockett I'm the operations project manager good evening everybody I'm [22:19] Rashad Kennedy owner of keny property development as well as co-founders of these gentlemen next to me and uh we've [22:25] been in business since 2020 focus on residential commercial uh multifamily mix use U remodels things like that cool [22:34] and I'm uh Darren Fletcher uh from South Minneapolis co-founder as well and uh we make abundance properties and um at [22:41] abundance properties our mission is to create abundance through the rehab and [22:46] um development of communities while empowering and educating individuals to do the same that's really what we stand [22:54] for and a project that really aligns with our mission statement and core values was one where we worked with a [23:01] nonprofit out of South Minneapolis PPL if you're familiar with them and um I [23:07] can talk about it but rather show you guys what this uh project meant to us but also to the community so we have a [23:13] video for you guys to check it out what's up y'all it's chy [23:18] hollingworth with abundance properties y'all it's cold out [23:24] [Music] here it's cold out here we first started this project it was warm out the sun was [23:31] out we had nice drone shots none of that's happening now it's cold but we still got work to do we've already done [23:38] Roofing siding Plumbing electrical whatever you could think of we've done [23:43] it on this receip project and the last part of this is the windows and that's what's happening right now we're doing [23:48] Chicago Avenue and Portland Avenue windows and uh we getting it done the crew has been amazing and this has been [23:54] a fun project um that we've been doing with PPL so what I'm most excited about with the receip program is how it's [24:02] allowing emerging developers to add to their portfolio but not have to take on [24:07] so much risk with grabbing properties that need a ton of work still so this is a great opportunity for people within [24:14] the community to now be able to continue to invest back into their community and not take on as much [24:20] [Music] [24:26] risk our team here at a L's properties have been excited doing this project [24:31] with PPL because it's bringing forth Equitable transformation here in South [24:36] Minneapolis the time is now and Legacy Starts [24:43] Here sweet and that that's our our uh partner chy as well uh who's not here [24:50] today but uh cool now we'll talk about uh the meat and bones of the project and everything uh we're super excited uh [24:57] wanting to be here front of y'all and to talk about it um so as Carrie kind of [25:02] mentioned um on you know 5516 Vernon Avenue uh we're essentially proposing uh [25:09] four town homes in a rezone all right so why does it work [25:15] right that's the question um so I've with with heina um in the city itself uh [25:24] the comprehensive plan the climate action plan everything leads to increase ing density in targeted areas uh for [25:32] several layered reasons um in the uh so you can see in the picture that you see [25:38] now um it kind of shows you exactly where that site is the the orange [25:43] bubbles are uh targeted areas and this picture is a um from the UFM study that [25:51] was done in 2024 that um really articulates areas where they are recommending increased [25:59] density um which as you can see Vernon's on a busy road um when it comes to [26:06] density uh the concept is if you increase density in the city you'll [26:11] decrease the vehicle miles traveled or VMT um and you'll also increase people [26:18] utilizing the transit system which is the goal um and in the climate action [26:23] plan it actually talks about uh the goal in 2030 of almost doubling the transit [26:31] usage you know how do you get there you have to increase density you got to make uh some more properties affordable for [26:38] people working in Adina that want to live in Edina and go to work um so this [26:43] is this is the perfect project for it um and then when we talk about land use [26:49] efficiency um it's it's an entire acre um and it you know somebody was just to [26:54] give an acre uh you know would single family be the IDE ideal use for that [27:00] with the community uh in mind you know that's the question right um and then [27:06] the the last piece is uh we got a dynamic team here um and we're extremely [27:12] excited uh we actually own the property we closed on it already so we are here [27:17] to partner with you guys we're ready to take action um and we also have a very [27:23] clear record of success so not just a project you've seen but we also have [27:28] uh a track record of development doing Town Homes we completed uh in Egan in [27:36] 2022 as well as Rashad can talk about uh quite a few other uh projects that he's [27:41] done in Egan as well as that uh uh throughout the Twin Cities [27:51] essentially oh yeah so this property specifically as Carrie mentioned four [27:56] tow houses through 3,000 ft each actually Four beds four baths on here it says 3x four baths and the owner OCC and [28:04] the end goal would be for owner occupants um I know there was a question alluding to um plotting that' be the [28:10] plan to go do a cic plot townhouse plot um each person would have their own uh [28:17] designated space as well as a uh management company for uh the [28:23] association and think else to highlight on that no I think that's that's it for [28:32] now awesome so in summary as I mentioned edana's comprehensive plan the climate [28:38] action plan everything essentially highlights increasing density in specific targeted areas um and that's [28:46] you know the stars are aligning here where uh you know we controled a lot um [28:52] it's right along a busy Corridor uh where you know Transit can easily be go [28:59] uh the location and the the size is perfect um to have owner occupants in [29:04] mind at the end uh you know new families moving in is is who would essentially be [29:10] buying these properties um and then like I said I I can't brag enough but uh [29:16] we're a dynamic team and we're taking action throughout the Twin Cities um and we love to share more about that uh as [29:23] well so thank you all for your time and consideration [29:30] thank you very much I guess I'm sure we have some questions and then again since this is a sketch plan um we hope to give [29:38] you a bunch of good non-binding feedback but at least help direct certain aspects [29:43] or details of the potential project toward a successful outcome so you want [29:50] to start over there um would you mind explaining for everyone what a cic [29:55] is yeah um so do I have a defin defition note uh but so in the past so we're also [30:02] working on a 16year townhouse development in Maplewood so the ones we're doing right now in Maplewood pretty much had to go through this exact [30:08] process hire an attorney anywhere from 10,000 to 20,000 depending who you're [30:13] call and how they're feeling that day now I'm just kidding about that part but um yeah and they pretty much you know [30:18] they're the expert they put that all together do got involved the surveyer he plots it out um and works with the [30:24] county uh closely to make sure that um that's done right it's like a condominium right where you own your [30:31] piece but there's like common area and amenities that everyone helps pay for y [30:36] and manag by an association and they have like a declaration um requirements [30:41] and stuff like that that is along with the CSC PL um I'm think this is fabulous [30:48] I would be uh very in favor of a project like this both on this site and the site [30:53] next door um I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about the bedroom for bath is this a layout that you're [31:00] you've done before or how did you come to that mix for this site just out of [31:05] curiosity yeah really from doing it before and um knowing the cost the [31:11] lumber the siding um LP siding from the roof and so really just kind of I don't want to say plug and playing but just [31:18] not Reinventing the wheel um there's a lot of other developers and Builders using the same like slab on grade um on [31:24] the main level uh like Living Kitchen Maybe maybe a powder bath a full bath on the main level and then on the second [31:30] floor you or you could call it the third too you'll have four bedrooms and then two bathrooms laundry up there and [31:36] that's kind of the make out of it great thank you good [31:43] luck oh yeah I was going to just add about the platting that would come before Planning Commission and city [31:49] council they usually happens after a project has been built so we know exactly where the walls are so that [31:56] would be a a second step um after should the project be [32:06] approved thank you for coming here with us um I wanted to ask did you consider [32:12] putting additional units on this land yeah so we did have so as Jordan [32:19] mentioned we do have a a pretty solid team and um experts in our own rights and uh our draftsman he gave us a couple [32:25] ideas um could definitely fit more on there um but just with the layout the [32:31] setbacks we just felt like four was a good number so that's I mean was there really any science to it not necessarily [32:37] a little bit of Art and Science um but four felt good [32:43] um the reason why I ask and we'll deliberate later on is because um you [32:48] know our single family residential has a lot size of 9,000 square ft and um this [32:54] is 38,000 ft divided by four so this is as as any kind of single family [33:00] residential and because we do want to have more density along corridors um I [33:06] think this is a perfect spot for considering six or eight so I just want to know if you were [33:14] open to that yeah we we thought about that for sure um it was something that we went back and forth on and um you [33:21] know we're not necessar stuck on for um we felt like it was a good number good starting point but that's something that [33:26] you guys are open to that's definitely conversation that we would have as well yeah cuz your numbers work out for four [33:32] MH and the other reason I was thinking that because you had one um elevation in there of a town host that you had done [33:40] somewhere else MH and it had um a [33:45] relatively flat facade and so I'm bringing that up like [33:51] if there were if you did more if you could add like front porches or um add a [33:57] little bit more character a few more roof lines in there um and I think that would really the front porch definitely [34:04] would kind of really help so if you'd be open to something like that for sure like that feedback okay super thank you [34:10] that's it nice to see you guys it's nice I mean [34:16] sometimes we get some repeat players in here we haven't seen you before um so it's nice to get like some fresh faces [34:22] in here oh sorry and appreciate your presentation what are what are your [34:27] thoughts on the parking is not covered right as far as black top blacktop [34:34] parking okay you but in two car garages per unit as well oh there would be yeah [34:39] okay I I didn't I couldn't tell that and then it's kind of like the first floor I guess you could call it the um got it parking got it okay I I I think I missed [34:47] that and then um so would these be market price units yeah so being that's [34:53] preliminary in like the design phase and whatnot um some of the numbers that we're looking at as far as the end [34:58] buyers anywhere from like 800 to 900 okay and that's based off some comparable tow houses not too far from [35:05] Veron yeah probably maybe like half a mile mile maximum so kind of piggybacked [35:11] on kind of some of their Design Elements and even a price point too okay yeah I was just curious what they might what [35:17] Market was for this type of structure I think those are the questions I had for now [35:29] any other questions for these guys all right quy yeah I certainly appreciate you guys [35:35] coming out here um good to see some fresh faces of new developers uh thinking very creatively on using um [35:43] that space um just a couple quick questions you know more so on the work [35:49] that you guys are doing in Maplewood I was just curious just reading through you know there's a community feedback [35:55] section just talk to me like a little bit about what what our experience was like did you guys go out to the [36:02] community ask questions get feedback just tell me a bit more about your experience [36:09] there um and then sorry Quincy could you clarify so you said the the Maplewood [36:14] project if if we went out to the community yeah there was a challenges [36:20] addressed um and I think under that section I'm just reading okay one of your handouts uh [36:28] and there was a comment here about Community feedback I was just curious about about what that meant or what do [36:35] you guys do all the experience there I'm Le sh sorry about that I was uh interpretting your question as far as [36:42] the feedback from some of the neighbors because we did meet with uh some of those Neighbors on uh what's today Wednesday that was on Monday um so I [36:49] mean basically it was resoning um and just doing this the same process with Maplewood I think their process was a [36:56] little longer um there were some design I want to say changes or [37:01] necessarily challenges but from water and sewer um to storm runoff um and just [37:07] working closely with like the civil engineer in the city the city's engineer and making sure that we're meeting their [37:14] requirements um and also making sure from civil civil there was a lot of civil um requirements that we had to [37:21] adhere to so I'd say those were some of the biggest challenges as far as like though the neighborhood and the community they they were forward um it's [37:27] actually right next door to a townhouse community so they want to see something fresh [37:33] there wonderful uh good stuff I think the [37:40] design looks pretty good um I think you mentioned you have an an architect on your team that probably looks at the [37:46] homes in the region and kind of comes up with a design that kind of fits that neighborhood um and based on the [37:51] pictures from the other um developments that you've done it seems like it's [37:57] really nice nice you know definitely the Modern Standard I think uh uh this this [38:02] area would be looking at um I think the slab onr um in Maplewood [38:10] that's not what's going to happen here or is it going to be slab on grade here as well slab on grade here as well but [38:17] definitely um different design elements from the interior and the exterior for example like in Maplewood we use vinyl [38:24] siding here we do L siding um some things like that um we had decks on the [38:30] back maybe we do decks in the front on these ones um some changes like that but it would be slab on gr at least that's [38:37] what we'd be proposing okay right sounds good um there's a lot [38:42] of mature trees in that area I'm guessing you'll try to preserve them if you could and uh maybe replant so I'm [38:50] sure the future design might have you know different uh landscaping ideas kind [38:55] of embedded I'll be excited to see see what those would look like um but that's it for now I think based [39:03] on you know what I've seen uh we talk more about the zoning and everything but the design look like it's going to work [39:10] pretty well I like the four units on that lot on how you enter it as well so I thought I was very [39:16] creative um the location seems like it fits too you know with the density for [39:21] Veron uh so yeah I think it's positive so far I'm sure we'll chat some and get [39:27] some more ideas but thanks again thank [39:33] you welcome very nice to see you um a few questions um did you consider any [39:40] other configurations um in terms of where the driveways would be or the the homes or [39:47] anything like that did you do iterations and what were what were the issues around them how' you land on this one [39:53] yeah so I'd say the other one that we were debating on was uh kind of to maybe [39:59] uh what's your name Miss Claire uh Point as far as having more than uh four townh [40:05] houses uh we had one has six um trying to Fig I think the entrance was still on Vernon though it was still right there [40:13] um but we liked doing split them up into two different buildings so that was the [40:18] other one that we're kind of debating on was just having six okay but nothing like with all the [40:23] the not all together or any of the parking in the guest parking in the front or anything like that no we didn't [40:29] change that up no okay and I was going to ask the same question about why not more units um and sort of to that point [40:36] of increasing density which I think we all realize is is um an important future [40:43] goal um and other needs um any consideration [40:49] for making some or or any part of this affordable [40:55] housing um we hadn't really talked about that to be honest uh I when we I guess [41:01] when we say affordable like by the definition it's probably not by the definition right because Stephanie did a memo where she said it does not you know [41:08] constitute affordable housing so right um but at the same time when we so there's other we have a handful of other [41:15] projects going on in E Dino right now um some range from 1.2 to 1.8 million um [41:21] which would be designed very similar to these at a much different price point so [41:26] although it doesn't NE meet the affordable requirements you're getting a lot of the same design elements that [41:32] these houses are going for anywhere from 1.3 1.4 1.5 just as far as like the kitchen the bathrooms the material [41:39] selections being used um so no it's not affordable but it's it's um a lower [41:46] price point than what you're seeing um if if that makes sense uh as far as some of the design elements and materials [41:52] being used I thank you I understand what you're saying I I I just um [41:58] I just think it's unfortunate that we can't on this parcel somehow um con be [42:04] considering that but but I understand if it doesn't meet you know the economics of the situ of your situation um but to [42:12] that point in the in what was submitted um there was something about them [42:17] costing between or the price point being between 7 and 800,000 and you just it [42:22] just sounds like it got ratcheted up to between 8 and 900,000 and and the reason [42:28] for that is um I yeah I don't really have a reason [42:34] I'm not sure which piece uh yeah that that could have been my uh [42:41] my mistake or typo um we were still kind of looking at numbers uh to see what could work um and we definitely as a [42:49] group you know affordable housing is definitely something that's you know on the horizon something that we are always [42:54] looking for those type of projects as you can see uh the PO project as well as some of the [43:00] other things we're doing for clients uh are similar in that realm um but when we [43:05] were looking at the economics of it uh we were kind of really basing off the [43:10] comparables in the area uh so I guess when I was saying affordable is more [43:15] like relatively affordable U for EO thank you um and then in the video um [43:25] discussed uh partnership with PPL um are you going to have any such partnership um in this [43:35] project you don't always work with with PPL no ma'am that that was um a project [43:42] where we were um they have a portfolio of uh small multif family anywhere from [43:49] duplexes to six plexes that we were Contracting on to uh and we did the [43:54] windows the all the um um the roof the furnaces boilers all the um the heavy [44:02] stuff um so that they can sell it back to um investors in the community at a [44:08] discounted price they're going to the city to get um uh interest for given and [44:14] everything so they can sell it back to the community um at a lower price point are you involved do you ever work [44:21] with Summit Academy OIC I'm not familiar not familiar with them okay um [44:27] um and would you be involved in the financing at all so I guess that that kind of brings me to my next question [44:34] was this with this project bring with it any kind of Bridge to government financing or anything like that or you [44:41] just require the buyers to get private financing um there there is no other uh [44:48] financing I guess to your to your question um but I'm sorry I missed the the last part did you say the the buyer [44:55] financing yeah I mean once you sell it I mean it's just all private correct yes just all private okay um last question [45:02] oh there be common area maintenance of some X dollar per unit to cover your [45:08] management costs and things like that ongoing costs [45:13] um and have are you aware have you looked at uh the like the traffic [45:19] patterns during school because you're so close to Highlands as um many of us are [45:25] aware the traffic around that school is quite a cluster you know at certain [45:31] times of the day and even though you're you're close to the school but you have you know um have you considered that in [45:38] terms of you know access and things like that and um possibly the impact it might [45:45] have on the price we have um we have heard similar [45:51] feedback um we haven't done an in-depth study uh of it so far but it is [45:57] something that we've uh you know looked at or kept in the in the back of our notes for sure so okay and as we move [46:03] forward with the process it'll definitely be something we'll be looking into okay thank you thank [46:10] you thanks for coming I was going to say thank you for your interest in Adina but then you said you already closed on the [46:16] lot so thank you for your investment in Adina we're glad you're here uh did you [46:22] say you started in 2020 yes correct been busy you got uh Egan Maplewood and St [46:30] Paul projects I graduated in college in 2016 um went to Augsburg College I'm D [46:36] study business management was also on a wrestling team I say that to say right out of college I was pretty much [46:41] operating as a GC um but I I didn't have my official GC license until 2020 so [46:47] really been doing it nine plus years um but as far as like official GC general [46:52] liability you know employees all that 2020 MH that's impressive congratulations you got some really nice [46:58] work in the presentation that we saw thank uh just a couple specific questions on this project the four [47:05] surface spots those are guest parking correct shared for the four units I I believe that's how we would make it out [47:11] yeah okay so the drive a and the four guest spots would be HOA [47:18] correct and just for clarity are you imagining subdividing into two or four [47:26] four okay okay for so each buyer would have their own separate address own [47:32] uh ownership of a particular area between the walls and on the lot in a [47:39] driveway okay thank you thank [47:46] you any other questions right now I just had one so there was a project Rec oh [47:52] did you have one oh thanks there was there was a pizza place proposed for [48:00] Vernon recently did you guys watch what happened with that okay did you I I I [48:06] did hear about it where they at three to five where what uh where the city [48:11] council voted 3 to five forward with it well there was just a lot of discussion so right down the [48:17] street there was kind of a basically unbuildable lot that there was a request [48:23] to rezone um and regu that and amend the comprehensive plan and then rezone that [48:29] that parcel and it just generated a lot of discussion and people had it's not worth rehashing now obviously but like [48:36] everyone the the neighborhood had a lot of comments and then we had an opinion and the council had a lot of comments [48:41] about the comp plan and rezoning in this area along Vernon and I just didn't know if you guys had followed that whole [48:48] discussion because a lot came out of it but but if not that's fine we don't we don't need to get into it um there were [48:54] just a couple Concepts that came out of that whole discussion that that may or may not be relevant to this request as [49:00] well so later on all right [49:06] thanks all right yeah car I could give you a little feedback on the [49:11] R2 I was looking at it looks like a number of variances would be needed if [49:17] if the request was for an R2 District there's a [49:23] 90t lot width requirement this slot is about 140 ft wide so there would be [49:29] variances there each unit would need 25 ft of Frontage on a public street so [49:36] that could turn into a really awkward plat so I think PRD to would be the the [49:44] best fit here thanks Carrie stealing my oh you [49:49] got my answer before the question all right good um I think [49:55] it I guess starting with process uh commissioner Smith asked a question [50:01] about feedback you mentioned you met with some neighbors could you share some of that feedback that you've received [50:07] already yeah absolutely absolutely so we connected with uh uh some neighbors to [50:13] the east um and it was it was a a great connection um it's a almost a [50:20] generational uh family that's there um and also a neighbor uh to on that [50:27] in that development I forget the street that's right there yeah yeah to the West right um was also there as well so it [50:35] was really great to hear from them um they were definitely like in approval they want to see something new there [50:41] it's been sitting for two years so those were like direct quotes from them um is [50:46] kind of what they said there so uh yeah it was yeah it was a good meeting i' say [50:53] so I guess following up on that neighbor to the east is there any potential of interest from [51:01] them to sell that you guys could buy that property too yeah so it's a it's a good question [51:07] and I think it's something where uh there's more conversations to be had uh [51:13] is what I would kind of sum it up as okay because it is a a family they're [51:18] not um they're not in distress or they're not like you know I need to you know let this go it's something that uh [51:25] is really important to them uh but that's to say that [51:30] um there there's more conversations sure cuz uh I mean I'll get into my comments [51:38] later but I would say probably the one key ingredient to making this like a [51:45] just a home run is if this were both properties just what you could do with [51:51] that opportunity and maybe the I I think this [51:57] the persuasion toward this not being spot zoning I think makes it I just [52:03] picture that and there's along with my comments of what you could do with both of those properties together could [52:09] create something a lot more palatable instead of just tucking all these in [52:14] between uh the single family home so I'd say that's that was why I was asking and [52:22] then um other [52:27] questions uh do other projects of yours feature that [52:34] that small guest parking lot and I guess why' you guys consider that versus just Green Space or playground or something [52:41] shared um is it just you want a spot for other guests to park versus in the [52:48] driveways of the people they're visiting or what are you thinking yeah so it's a [52:53] good question uh definitely just want to have more more like parking available [52:58] other than just what's theirs um and you know if I had to answer that even more [53:04] honestly it would be you know the team as far as the architect the uh cver [53:09] engineer they've been doing this a lot longer than I have been and um when they have recommendations like hey we should [53:15] do this I'm usually like okay that sounds about right okay and that's I [53:21] definitely like lean on their expertise and their feedback and their design and um always like to buy into you know [53:28] their idea so um th those would be the two main points I just wanting to be [53:33] able to have more options and as well as them saying hey I think this is a good idea okay thank you I think that's it [53:39] for I the questions I have and I know some some fellow Commissioners have some feedback for you guys and I certainly do [53:47] too but and we can always jump back to questions if they come back uh but [53:52] anyone else have any other specific questions for yeah Comm Smith yeah this [53:58] question is just for Doc director Teague um you know if we switch from switch to [54:04] prd2 and we expand that space to also Encompass the home on 5508 and that lot [54:12] area um would we need to get any kind of feedback from the ownership from the [54:18] owners there or or would they have any kind of say in in us doing that or could [54:24] we independently as a body make that decision yeah the city hasn't [54:29] proactively rezoned properties we haven't done that so what I would [54:35] Envision let's say we wanted to there's a couple options we could amend the [54:42] comprehensive plan to include their property they would have to sign the application so they would be you all for [54:50] it um obviously so they would have to sign that the application for the comp plan amendment to Encompass both Lots [54:56] they could remain as a single family home because a single family home is mentioned as a allowed use and that low [55:04] density attached District the other option they could even be a party to a [55:11] rezoning application so they would sign the comprehensive plan and the [55:16] rezoning in rezoning them to um to the [55:23] prd2 the single family home would become a non conforming use um if it were to burn they would [55:32] have to build the exact same house um but other we potentially could [55:39] look at doing like a a ghost plat what could happen in the future um kind of as [55:46] phase two with that house um should that house be removed in the future so [55:52] there's some options there but they would have to be a party to an app to rezone or regu their [56:00] site is that true if we waited until the uh official next comp [56:06] plan if we were to propose a new land use guidance we would we would get them [56:14] involved upfront kind of s we don't do that very often with Comprehensive plan amendments the one where we did was in [56:21] the 70th in Cahill district there was one property owner and they were agreeable to that land use change so um [56:29] anytime we're looking at ruid we would definitely want to get them on board [56:35] early got it [56:43] thanks just one more clarifying question um director T can you say again the prd2 [56:51] property to the West on Vernon was rezoned to prd2 from R1 but [56:59] did you say it was already guided to low density residential correct I found [57:05] residential correct yep I found a land use map from the 1980 comprehensive plan [57:11] and it showed it as low density attached okay so that rezone was [57:16] consistent with the comprehensive plan correct got it thank [57:23] you all right how about some non-binding feedback who's got [57:28] some all right you just start it back up we'll come down we just come down I had to go last last time so I'll go first [57:35] this time uh we just a few minutes ago somebody asked about the surface [57:42] parking and I'm trying to get the picture back [57:47] up I don't have a lot of feedback on this on the on the basic site plan but [57:52] that's one that I'm wondering about it's not clear to me that that needs to be [57:58] surface parking I not saying you shouldn't listen to your architect because I'm not an architect but just um [58:05] as a planner seems like you have space in front of the garages for a couple of [58:11] guest cars and I know that's awkward in in other properties you would have your guest park on the street and that's not really an option here but just [58:19] practically speaking if I'm a guest visiting unit 3 or unit four I'm not sure I'd even know that the surface Park [58:24] the guest parking was even there so just for what it's worth some feedback on [58:31] that um as far as the project overall uh we are [58:38] historically very cautious about uh rezones of R1 director T I think that's [58:44] fair to say um and yeah this is an [58:52] a isolated spot it's a very large lot it's on a corridor that we're interested [58:57] in uh increasing density on and if you do the math it's not a [59:03] materially more intensitive land use than the neighbors to the West uh I mean we're asking for five units per acre or [59:10] five units per acre would be required but in fact if you do the math it's 4.6 versus 4 4.0 and the neighbors to the [59:17] left so in the scheme of things it's a pretty trivial departure from the density that's already there uh in that [59:24] neighborhood particularly right to the rep to the West I think what's most important to me [59:30] is um this is what we say we want missing [59:37] middle I can't tell you how many times as a planning commissioner I've heard people talk about wanting missing [59:45] middle um we want it and this is a great place to put it I it just seems completely [59:53] obvious so how will we get there seems like we could rezone and change a comprehensive plan and do the variance [1:00:00] that we need to or we could uh Kick the Can down the [1:00:05] road and wait for a zoning update and comprehensive Plan update in five [1:00:11] years these are all valid options I mean there no matter which one of those three options you they're equally transparent [1:00:18] public processes public gets to weigh in no matter which of those courses we [1:00:23] take um the reason that I would be comfortable [1:00:29] with a rezone and a comprehensive plan and a variance would be because we do that now rather than wait five years [1:00:34] when we when we may not have somebody standing in front of us who's interested in doing [1:00:40] it so as I said I'm not uncomfortable with the rezone and comprehensive plan change in a variance others may be but I [1:00:47] would say that if we do choose to Kick the Can down the road and wait for the zoning update [1:00:53] Andor the comprehensive Plan update that really increases the pressure on all of us to get those large scale [1:01:01] forward-looking plans exactly right down to the [1:01:07] parcel and I'm not sure that's a realistic expectation so I'm really excited about this [1:01:14] opportunity and hope we can hope we can keep it moving [1:01:22] thanks um well I think this is a great project um in spite of the fact that you know I [1:01:28] mentioned affordable housing as much as I would love to see more of it I understand that this might not be the [1:01:35] right parcel but I think the project that you are have brought to us um is a [1:01:41] good project and I'll generally push back on my fellow commissioner Aly [1:01:46] because I I looked at the um at the drawings and I thought oh there's four [1:01:51] extra parking spaces that's so great CU then everybody is in all cramped and jockeying for position plus the fact [1:01:58] that there's not a lot of available parking elsewhere so if one person has a few people over everybody else is out of [1:02:05] luck so I like the configuration with all due respect [1:02:11] um I believe that with the comprehensive plan amendment that got passed for the [1:02:18] Hankerson property where we it was a fairly similar if I recall correctly ask [1:02:27] and um that got passed I believe that that's setting something of a precedent [1:02:32] in terms of of what you're looking for and I would be all for a resoning to get [1:02:39] you know more housing and sounds like it's a great project so my full support [1:02:45] at this point yeah again thanks for bringing [1:02:52] this idea forward you know uh we love to see when Developers like yourself identify opportunities and then we get [1:02:58] to debate it and talk through it I think this is certainly one of them um I see [1:03:03] this in you know there's a zoning question right I [1:03:08] think the design question most most of us I would guess is positive on [1:03:14] that um the zoning question is the is the one that you know to direct to aly's [1:03:21] point we try not to do that but sometimes it would make sense what would make way more sense is if you had boat [1:03:29] lots and then you could design something and then we could Zone that larger space and it would make sense and it would fit [1:03:35] into the community it it almost feels like this particular property is kind of locked in [1:03:42] by uh Wetland and trees right on both sides and then the school and then the [1:03:49] Vernon so it's almost like a mini Community right it's like if you come [1:03:55] and live here you get to know your neighbors really really really well because they live right next to you and there's no neighbors you could easily [1:04:01] just run off to and hang out with you just kind of hang out in that spot so from a design [1:04:07] perspective I like the design but think about the design as if you had the other spot too right so assume that in the [1:04:16] future that becomes available you have the conversations with that neighbor and they say Hey you know this sounds great [1:04:23] and let's just say you acquire it then your current building that you're going [1:04:28] after with match and fit like the driveway how you enter how you exit those kind of things just think of it as [1:04:34] one unit is my recommendation for us as a commission [1:04:39] right um I love how director Teague looked up you know the difference between R2 and prd2 and how prd2 seemed [1:04:46] like it made sense this to me is a nice gradual increase from uh single to [1:04:54] attached and I think that made sense to me but at the same time it does feel [1:04:59] kind of like spot zoning a little bit but it seems like this one would work so I'm not sure how we go about changing [1:05:07] that or if we have to change that now but I'll be in favor of it and try to [1:05:13] find a solution or a way forward to get this Zone properly so that these higher [1:05:19] density type units that fit that missing middle you know not affordable but missing middle um could be developed [1:05:26] because to the points that we heard so far and all the research that we've done this is exactly the kind of spot where [1:05:32] we want this kind of housing right and you guys definitely um found a a really great opportunity to uh do that so I'm [1:05:39] I'm I'm very positive and I'm in favor for it um I'll just love to hear more from my fellow Commissioners on the [1:05:45] zoning question and how could we advance that [1:05:53] forward all right thank you for being here here tonight um try not to rehash [1:05:59] too much of what you've already heard but as far as just feedback on the the [1:06:04] lot design itself could you maybe go bring that slide back up actually on your [1:06:15] presentation this one yep so I mean the two immediate thoughts [1:06:20] that jump out to me are you know the one around the trees and I think we talked about that there's all the mature trees [1:06:25] there and trying to minimize how many mature trees you need to tear down and [1:06:31] then kind of following that in terms of the surface that's covered by uh concrete and stuff here you know I think [1:06:39] you know maybe there could be a little bit more creativity employed here um you could potentially flip you know those [1:06:46] garages so that they are next to each other right so you don't have to have separate driveways for each in order to [1:06:51] reduce the the amount of lock cover the impermeable surface coverage that you have going on there um you know just [1:07:00] again there's a lot of and you know I echoed Comm aly's thoughts there on parking and really just impermeable [1:07:07] surface space right Trying to minimize that and think of how you could maybe position these a little bit differently to try to even get and we talked about [1:07:13] the usable lot area right Beyond what's the setb and how much Green Space the [1:07:18] residents have could potentially do something a little differently here I'm only a chemical engineer I'm not an [1:07:24] architect so I can't can't give you too many specifics but I'm sure that could be something that's brought up in [1:07:30] conversation um and then I guess they just you know that's that's the main feedback I think overall um you know I [1:07:38] like like the concept you know I like that you're trying to keep an owner occupied that you're not a big [1:07:44] Investment Group coming in you know taking owner owner opportunities away and then renting it back out for [1:07:50] outrageous prices to people giving a chance at home ownership in that missing midle um to comment on the the zoning piece [1:07:58] and spot zoning and the comprehensive plan you know and you brought up key [1:08:04] site right and the main objection I think around that was that it was a commercial site in the sea of [1:08:09] residential and I remember Julie R talking about that specifically and this is really just residential in the sea of [1:08:15] residential I mean it's a slight slight change in residential surrounded by other houses [1:08:21] right barely I wouldn't even hardly call them much more dense based off the the the lot coverage that we require for our [1:08:28] ones and how much how big this lot is for four different for four units um I [1:08:34] also like it's not a PUD so that's always that's always a plus for me for something like this that we're actually [1:08:40] conforming to one of our existing zoning uh designations so that's great so all [1:08:46] in all you know I think there's a little room for improvement maybe again with the layout here again with trying to [1:08:52] reduce some of that permeable surface or impermeable surface um and trying to save trees and and [1:08:57] whatnot but I think you have a great start so thank [1:09:06] you it's interesting so Vernon's like we're all talking about Vernon all the time now and I [1:09:12] think like sitting in the background is the question what what should like just [1:09:18] setting this one individual proposal it's just the bigger question of what [1:09:23] should Vernon look like going forward and what should it what should Vernon be [1:09:28] guided for in the comprehensive plan and how should the properties be zoned and how you know you pointed to the [1:09:34] University of Minnesota study that was presented to us and they proposed a really dense Vernon not just on one [1:09:40] parcel but the whole thing yeah you know and commissioner Miranda if you're still here would would have a fair amount to [1:09:46] say about about his vision for that as well so I think IDE just ideally that [1:09:52] question would get answered first and the comprehensive plan would be updated [1:09:58] or amended to clearly articulate what Vernon should be guided for including [1:10:03] this parcel and everything around it whether it's low density attached or something else I don't know but that's [1:10:08] in the ideal world I think that would happen first there's skepticism that it will [1:10:14] happen that way um and if anybody I think everybody here knows like especially with that area and the folks [1:10:21] who live around there if anybody proposed making any kind of significant change to Vernon like wholesale you would [1:10:30] hear very emotional reactions to put it to understate it um [1:10:37] and like for example if someone proposed making all of Vernon low density [1:10:43] attached um there'd be strong reactions to that or even a significant part of it [1:10:48] so I I'm a little conflicted about whether the right processes to figure [1:10:56] out what Vernon should look like and just deal with that issue first and then everyone has certainty and can can [1:11:02] approach it with with that or to to take these little minor changes that come and [1:11:09] I don't know what it looks like maybe a little bit of a patchwork or something so I don't I don't have a fully formed [1:11:14] opinion on this just know that that's a dynamic in the back like Vernon is there's these bigger questions are all [1:11:19] implicated by these individual projects um and I don't know how that's going to play out you know with the different [1:11:26] decision makers um I think there's there's I I I like a lot [1:11:33] about what you guys proposed I think there's also something a little bit random about just re as a as a Planning Group saying from a planning perspective [1:11:41] we think we should um just amend one amend the comp plan to just change what [1:11:46] one parcel's guided for I think just just in actually for from a planning perspective that's a little [1:11:52] bit it's just a little bit that like left to be desired there even if there were two uh adjoining Parcels that were [1:12:00] regid that were then abutted up against a marsh or something and it was the beginning of a corridor that was [1:12:06] starting to be Reid you could explain that a little bit more I don't know persuasively to people when you made [1:12:12] your not you guys but we could um I'm just explaining to you why the reasons why I don't know how this is going to [1:12:18] net out actually um like I think commissioner Aly said [1:12:25] said there's probably significant pessimism about the we want denser types [1:12:31] of housing in these areas I think folks are really skeptical rightly so about whether that will ever happen the way it [1:12:36] should um which is through a wholesale uh adjustment to the type of documents that govern these types of areas and so [1:12:44] we always struggle with this you know do you do you appro you do you make it you make incremental progress towards your [1:12:51] goals when it's available or you try try to do it in a more l iCal way um [1:12:57] so that might again Merit approving this at if [1:13:05] proposed it might be um an opportunity to start momentum towards making Vernon [1:13:12] overall look a little bit different um maybe you need to start with one to make [1:13:17] progress on the whole but regardless so I don't have I don't have a fully formed [1:13:22] opinion on this one yet because of those Dynamics I think some folks on the council might struggle um to approve [1:13:30] this having not approved the pizza place you know when I listened to the conversation that happened around that [1:13:37] you know a lot of the residents their point was and I I actually didn't agree with it but their point was um the [1:13:44] comprehensive plan is a promise made to us and when you change it for one parcel [1:13:51] you're breaking your promise to us and we relied on it when we moved in here and folks on the council you know some [1:13:58] of them adopted that same view and ultimately deciding that a business you [1:14:03] know a site that had been commercial for decades we you know the comp plan [1:14:09] wouldn't be amended to reflect the commercial nature of of that parcel they said that the comp because it had been [1:14:15] guided differently that was a promise made to the residents of the city and well we can't break that promise now so [1:14:22] there are these kind of like Dynamics out there that someone's going to have to kind of engage on when they make the [1:14:28] final decision I don't know if the council's going to stay consistent on that type of perspective or whe they're [1:14:34] going to change I can't predict it um so so so that's really it I mean I think [1:14:41] there's definitely Pros to this really appreciate your presentation it would be awesome if we could get more housing that looked like this in Idina [1:14:47] especially long Vernon um process-wise whether enough folks are going to be persuaded in this instance for all those [1:14:54] reasons I just don't know but I just thought feedback wise it would just be good to know about that context as you [1:14:59] continue to have these conversations and continue to kind of present things to folks because eventually that bigger [1:15:05] question you know like folks might ask that bigger question how does this make sense from a planning perspective for [1:15:10] Vernon as a whole so really appreciate you coming in thanks a lot [1:15:17] y thank you for being here um I do want to address your comments we and and [1:15:25] commissioner Pia talked to this we did approve um the anerson town homes and [1:15:30] that was turning R1 into um denser residential and just because there's [1:15:36] only a couple of other PRD twos doesn't mean there's a lot of other duplexes along Vernon and the comp plan does [1:15:44] recommend higher density on L Vernon when people get upset it's about their zoning the zoning is the problem is comp [1:15:52] plan is pushing us to higher Den residential along and that's what [1:15:58] happened with the pizza place too is that the commercial was not in the comprehensive plan the comprehensive [1:16:04] plan was for um heavier residential along there and for me because the [1:16:11] climate action plan which you referred to um the comp plan the transportation [1:16:17] plan the University of Minnesota study we have a housing crisis um unless we [1:16:22] kind of allow denser uses a heavier traveled are major kind [1:16:30] of routes this is one half mile from the 46 bus stop right now um I know the 46 [1:16:38] is looking to expand the bus service as soon as the stations go in in um on the [1:16:45] other side of 169 for the light rail [1:16:52] um and we are now allowing 8 us on every single family residential which is [1:16:58] single family residential is 9,000 square ft² and an Adu allows like 1 and a half units per 9,000 square feet so I'm [1:17:08] thinking you guys should do six units on here and I don't you know so I would [1:17:14] allow like pushing this farther back towards the school because it's it's [1:17:19] still schools are allowed in Residential Properties but there is a lot of room back there um I would be willing to kind [1:17:27] of push the drive a little farther as long as you can do some planting on that [1:17:33] I do agree with like thinking towards the other property but I would not [1:17:40] consider even talking about the other property until you have conversations [1:17:45] with the homeowner I'm not going to go there [1:17:51] um and commissioner Smith you talked about Community um and we talked about kind of [1:17:59] I had brought up covered porches and you talked about decks covered porches create Community because people can sit [1:18:06] out there in all kinds of weather and um talk with their neighbors and so I would [1:18:12] strongly strongly recommend those too um that's it I'd say do [1:18:18] more okay yes thank you guys for standing up there for so long and clearly you know [1:18:25] you're at the center of some hot topics and very current discussions uh here in [1:18:31] the city Beyond just your project um as commissioner Bornstein said uh we do [1:18:38] have to think about uh the comp plan um and how that that is our vision um but [1:18:44] it's a 10-year comp plan and for me I I very much believe that we need to make incremental progress because Lord knows [1:18:51] 10 years ago was a very different world than we're in today and so I think we do have to accommodate that um I'm not [1:18:58] going to give away your negotiating position with the neighbor but that would be I think as we've all sort of alluded to a SL a slam dunk if you can [1:19:04] make it happen um I'm okay if getting a variance for [1:19:12] this usable lot area I sort of agree that this is a great use of this site and um to me I would have no problem if [1:19:20] you can I I guess I wouldn't let setbacks or this usable lot variance be [1:19:26] the reason that you don't deliver the most the best product that you can here [1:19:32] um I think at the7 to 800,000 price point you could almost have the spec [1:19:37] built because it will be a very in demand product um and I sort of you know [1:19:43] if you want to put soft feelers out there I think there'll be a lot of people who who would love 3,000 square [1:19:49] feet they might not need four bedrooms or four bathrooms or whatever but there's a lot of people who'd like to downsize from from their home which in a [1:19:56] few years will be median price of a million dollar to something smaller and I think um this is exactly what is [1:20:04] needed here um and I'd even to the comments that other folks have made about um affordability you may even find [1:20:12] that you don't need the white marble granite High super high-end finishes that there may even be a demand for a [1:20:20] true sort of General consumer product um and I think this is a great site um more it' [1:20:28] be better I do love that that they duplexes because then everybody gets more windows versus like row homes but [1:20:35] um I hope you guys can figure out how to make it work on paper I hope your negotiations if you choose to have them [1:20:42] uh go well and um yeah just really excited to to get this project [1:20:50] going I forgot one thing I also agree with kind of flipping the garages [1:20:55] towards each other CU one unit for could have Windows on the south side but each unit could have Windows on all of their [1:21:02] exterior sides so I agree with the flipping of the [1:21:10] garages all right thank you guys I have a little bit of feedback maybe some of [1:21:15] it a departure from others could you read the definition of the spot zoning [1:21:21] again I think it's I just want to be very clear with what [1:21:28] you guys ought to expect as far as it goes for the next steps and what the process looks like and what you're up [1:21:34] against um the guidance from the league of [1:21:40] Minnesota cities is that Spa zoning is the practice of giving a parcel uh of [1:21:45] land special privileges that are different from the surrounding area it's uh considered illegal when it's an [1:21:52] unreasonable or arbitrary application of owning laws and it's considered illegal when it creates an island of [1:21:58] non-conforming use that significantly reduces the value of the property or surrounding [1:22:04] properties so I guess how you read that or how others is that it needs to check all those boxes to make it spot zoning [1:22:11] or just you know I'm looking for maybe discussion here if it significantly does [1:22:18] one of those if they purchased both and came to us and it was just a bigger lot [1:22:24] it would still be a spot if if I mean if we're going to look at it as we've taken [1:22:30] one parcel in isolation or one area in isolation no I know I'm just saying like how how that reads I mean is it all or [1:22:38] is it and or or I'm I'm just curious right because I mean I think we have to [1:22:45] confidently stand behind this isn't some form of spot zoning I don't think it does any of the [1:22:51] four to merryweather's point you could if this if you split this into two lots [1:22:58] two R1 Lots you could still have two houses with 280u so you'd still end up [1:23:04] with four families on this piece of land I don't [1:23:09] think it impacts negatively anybody's property value because the people to the other [1:23:16] side of the bushes are completely unimpacted by the use of of this land I mean it's not going to be a [1:23:21] manufacturing plant the schools behind it the road next to it the one owner is [1:23:26] right next to the lake I gu back I mean how do you read [1:23:31] that to I mean to me so in the City attorney has commented on this before [1:23:37] right it's it is very it's not a very black and white definition right and I think to the way I would look at it and [1:23:44] others could look it different is how big of an ask are you what is the change that you're going to we're going from [1:23:49] single family to single family attached right and that's is that significantly [1:23:55] different than changing from you know P putting a PUD in the middle of [1:24:01] residential area or a commercial space in the middle of a residential area uh you know it's not to me it's not you're [1:24:08] not giving a bunch of special privileges right we're meeting the zoning existing [1:24:13] zoning code where it's not unreasonable or arbitrary according to all of our [1:24:19] planning documents and say this is what we're aiming for in this in this Corridor um and we I certainly wouldn't [1:24:25] say that it significantly reduces the value of the property or the surrounding properties we're not putting a power plant next to a school or in the middle [1:24:31] you know in the middle of a single family neighborhood right so that's that's different to me this is like it's [1:24:36] such a little step up that I if I were arguing from a legal standpoint I wouldn't think it would be spot zoning [1:24:42] but so so a little bit of why yeah can just build on that a little bit I don't I don't know the all the history of spot [1:24:49] zoning law but my understanding is that it a big part of it and where it started [1:24:55] was anti-corruption like a planning commissioner a city council would take a bribe to allow a [1:25:03] factory next to a residential or inter residential area like that's be the extreme case of it and that would be bad [1:25:11] so I think that was the the the the original basis of it not to say that [1:25:16] that's all of it but that's a big part of it yeah and I'd say like a lot of it has to do with just basic planning [1:25:23] principles throwing something random somewhere so so a little bit of why I'm asking that is in this process once you [1:25:31] have to request a comprehensive Plan update it's a much harder ask to achieve [1:25:37] because it requires super majority vote by the council so they they would have to approve this 4 to one now I like I [1:25:44] feel like we' speaking for all of us maybe felt a little blindsided with this [1:25:50] project we're talking about down the road that was like a commercial use someone proposed an awesome restaurant [1:25:56] there that like people could gather at we voted to support that unanimously it didn't get that super [1:26:03] majority vote right and it isn't happening now so you have to be up [1:26:09] against that and some of the things that were discussed beyond what you what was [1:26:14] discussed tonight there is a there's a difference between this site and that site where the use was bringing people [1:26:22] together so you could argue for from our sides there's this positive impact for neighboring properties in the [1:26:28] neighborhood to have a place to come together and one of the the pinch points and pressure points [1:26:35] for the council was also that change would negatively impact [1:26:40] the neighboring properties so what I could see here plain Devil's Advocate is [1:26:46] the neighboring property to the east not being a part of this you have one acre next to one acre lot in an R1 Zone [1:26:54] and now your neighbor intensifies their use times four with a lot of surface parking other people there I could see a [1:27:03] reasonable case to say that adversely impacts that neighboring property I don't see it to the ones to the west but [1:27:11] I could see that argument to the East and that's what makes me a little unsure [1:27:16] about loving this where if it was both of them I think what you could do [1:27:22] because it is isolated two properties you know you have those things to the east I think it's it makes for a much a [1:27:31] much better Community as commissioner Smith brought up if both of those [1:27:37] properties were one so I know we're not looking at that now but that's where my hesitation is because I do think that [1:27:45] this potentially adversely impacts the neighbor to the east um compared to [1:27:50] doing nothing so that's that's just an opinion um but that's what makes me not love this as much like if if you had [1:27:58] that property to the east we would see a much different design of and configuration of this particular [1:28:05] property here which I think would be more efficient and as you mentioned you know you have an acre you want to be [1:28:12] most efficient with that land use but if you had two acres you could be even more efficient with fitting more people and [1:28:19] providing what I would say is like what seems like an A logical opportunity here is more of the that courtyard style [1:28:25] housing where you kind of flank the perimeter and have like a a park all [1:28:31] eyes on a common spot for people to hang out and gather so I'm just letting you [1:28:37] guys know the process like to get the comprehensive plan changed compared to [1:28:43] the one down the street that did go to you said it was originally guided right [1:28:50] they just had to or it was zoned that way it was it was guided medium density [1:28:57] residential but zoned commercial I I guess I'm referring to [1:29:02] the the r the R2 or the prd2 on the south side yeah the old Vernon uh that [1:29:09] was zoned R1 and was rezoned to prd2 [1:29:15] okay and so on the heels of the past comprehensive Plan update it it it was [1:29:22] at least advertised and Comm communicated to the community that our focus is really on our commercial nodes [1:29:29] and the small area plans and we don't want to start upzoning R1 areas [1:29:35] especially if it's not in a logical succession so like the Vernon project too being [1:29:42] separate it was already a multifam lot that that got densified and then it was [1:29:47] the neighboring lot so it was different than this and I see this as unique as [1:29:53] most projects are unique but this isn't as ideal of a you know logical [1:30:00] transition as some of our other ones because there's no history of the density right here on this side next to [1:30:07] it around it and it it didn't have a different use that we're placing it for so I I just see that as as a tougher ask [1:30:16] um but if you get to the rezoning and what we have at hand the prd2 seems to [1:30:22] make the most sense um as far as your layout goes um I feel like there's a [1:30:29] little bit more to be desired too and I'm I'm I'm not necessarily A [1:30:35] proponent of the parking unless there's like specific agreements cuz what's stopping [1:30:42] one of the units from filling all those parking spots all the time uh what commissioner Miranda would say you build [1:30:48] stuff for cars it's just going to get used by cars so I feel like if you didn't need need [1:30:54] it you shouldn't do it and if that helps create like a green space like if you [1:31:02] can't successfully negotiate the property of the East and this is what you [1:31:08] got I could see unit three and four kind of pushing more to the West um maybe [1:31:14] keeping the driveway farther to the east pushing unit one and two just a little [1:31:20] more to the north and if you took out that parking lot maybe you had have like a little common Green Space or Park you [1:31:28] know for like a playground or something for the users besides parking so just just thinking to [1:31:36] maybe sweeten the deal and to provide something that isn't more [1:31:44] just car generation right the whole point of this is to densify it so people don't drive as much so I kind of see [1:31:51] that as like an opposing you know feature um so that that would help [1:31:58] um I and I I think that's it I I mean in [1:32:05] general I support like I support this and I I want to see this happen I just want to be realistic of the next steps [1:32:11] and who you're going to talk to and what other things they're going to be looking at and I think there is a tough sale on [1:32:19] the comprehensive plan Amendment only um and I think everything else here looks really good and I I mean I personally [1:32:26] wish you the best on this I think it's the right type of layout if this stays [1:32:32] the same and if you do get that property to the east I think continuing this type [1:32:39] of design to kind of make more of like if you look up Courtyard housing of what [1:32:44] that is sometimes it's like you know you got an alley behind it so you don't have roads driving up through it but it kind [1:32:50] of keeps all eyes on a common space and there's a couple examples of that in [1:32:55] Idina just south of 50th in France with like a really nice development where it's basically a you but like you can [1:33:02] take that type of style and get maybe more units to it so yeah just your on [1:33:09] your comment if you move forward um with or without the parcel or without the parcel [1:33:15] to the east um having a letter of support from them about how they feel [1:33:22] about the project um might be beneficial and kind of help that argument since [1:33:27] they would be the one neighbor most impacted and I guess I'd say yeah going [1:33:33] forward like the problem with the sequence of this is you don't get to be ideal with consolidating things so I [1:33:41] would just let you know if that happened I would be personally more willing for [1:33:47] other variances to get the next set of housing closer to that prop property [1:33:54] line to kind of connect the units along the back um just cuz that that property [1:34:00] the East is wider not as long I mean it's as long but it kind of kind of loses some of its distance so I I think [1:34:08] where you got things is generally good I I I just think there's a little bit more to be desired with kind of that parking [1:34:15] situation so I'd kind of argue more for just keeping it to a driveway people [1:34:21] could kind of Park along the side of the driveway you know um and as long as there's a place to kind of turn around [1:34:29] um I just I guess I'd like to see something a little different there any [1:34:34] other feedback from anyone [1:34:39] else do you guys have any questions for us after hearing all this it's a lot of [1:34:44] stuff at [1:34:52] you um my apolog I had a few every time you [1:34:58] guys were talking I appreciate the feedback they'll probably come back to me but um one thing uh to I thought [1:35:07] about it some more uh to Bonnie's kind of question of like why not affordability one one uh feedback that [1:35:13] we did get uh when we were having the conversation with neighbors is uh that that was a scary word for them uh first [1:35:21] question this isn't going to be affordable is it you know so that that was kind of part of it and then um just [1:35:28] looking at the the variances and setbacks and things um was part of it um [1:35:34] as far as and I really appreciate especially the um that the counter [1:35:40] thoughts too like that's super helpful so as we go into February 4th we can [1:35:45] prepare and um and have a response for those questions uh is there anything [1:35:51] else that you uh that that you think we should be prepared for uh or that maybe [1:35:57] a uh you know a hot button for the council or anything for February [1:36:04] 4th don't use the word affordable just at all it's attainable housing it's for [1:36:11] the average I mean like the a word has a lot of connotation in conversations [1:36:16] right now so I would just not use that word EX [1:36:24] any else anyone yeah and not not because it wouldn't go over well with this group because everybody here is on board with [1:36:31] that I mean how many times have we that's not why you're saying that it's because it it creates a dynamic in the [1:36:37] community yes yes that like if you guys ever go on next door I hope you don't [1:36:42] honestly but if you ever do you know and someone says affordable half the room will be filled [1:36:50] um with people against it for that reason so these are just strategic tips [1:36:55] not because this body needs to we can weigh through that stuff I build affordable housing so I'm very pro- [1:37:00] affordable housing it is just a a loaded word right now understand bigger picture [1:37:06] thank you well if that's it we really [1:37:11] appreciate your guys' time appreciate you being bold enough to come forward with this plan and bring something to [1:37:18] the community that is arguably being asked for in a place that makesense so [1:37:24] good luck to the rest of the process we expect to see you again with a formal [1:37:30] application hopefully and uh until then good luck thank you guys appreciate [1:37:38] it all right well that was it on the agenda for [1:37:44] business so that leaves it to chair and member comments so I guess uh chair and member [1:37:51] comments yeah I one all right you got it okay before I say this I I have a I have [1:37:58] a thought experiment to share with the commission tonight but before I say that I want to speak directly to the camera [1:38:04] and say anyone who's listening or watching no one at the city is working on this what I'm about to say it's just [1:38:10] a creative exercise for the Planning Commission so I have a neighbor who uh [1:38:16] during the the um budget conversation [1:38:22] recently um we had lots of conversations about what's in the city budget what's not in the city budget and should it be there [1:38:28] should it not be there and one of the things he said to me was why does the city own a golf course and I don't have [1:38:35] any opinion really I don't play golf but I don't have any opinion about whether we should own a golf course or not I think it's an interesting question I [1:38:40] don't know but that got me thinking like well what if we [1:38:46] didn't and so the the thought exercise that I wanted to challenge you with [1:38:52] is what would would you do as a planner with 402 [1:38:59] Acres of undeveloped land in a Dina it's [1:39:06] 17,520 Square ft what would you do you don't have to answer I just want you to think about it [1:39:12] because it's kind of interesting to think well that would be really different for a Dina what could we do [1:39:17] with it not saying we should just saying what if that's it so which golf course [1:39:23] just so everybody oh okay I just I know just for the record yep yes can I say [1:39:29] something I thought that was a really good question and I think you're like you're ahead of your time because [1:39:38] um like there's so many golf courses and this is just my personal opinion what a bad use of land like do [1:39:46] we really need this much Golf and it's just you know what if it were just a [1:39:52] park so I just appreciate that you're raising it um there's so many other [1:39:57] things that could be done with some of the land that is a golf course right now I'm not even talking specifically about [1:40:03] Brar but just generally I think someone's going to watch this back if anyone watches these they're going to watch this back in 10 or 20 years and be [1:40:11] like commissioner alire was the first voice on the question of do we need all [1:40:16] the golf courses or can they be better to used literally in any other way um for something for something that I don't [1:40:23] know makes the community better some other way it's controversial now I mean I'm sure but I really think you're on to [1:40:28] some things for for clarity I am not recommending this I think it's just an interesting thing to think [1:40:42] about I was just gonna say Fred Richards anyone right I mean also I think no one [1:40:49] asked that question soon enough you know for that golf course that then turned into a park you it was kind of reactive [1:40:56] toward the end where maybe if you had that teed up before it would have been a little [1:41:01] more um yeah yeah all right I'll end it there any [1:41:08] other uh chair member comments anything all right commissioner Pia uh yeah just [1:41:14] to let everybody know that the Human Services Task Force has just about completed its um uh marching orders in [1:41:22] terms of you know it's a two-year project and last year we had evaluated um all the rfps that had come in for [1:41:30] City money and dled out that money for two separate years um this year we did [1:41:35] site visits and as we finish up um we are recommending to the city which is [1:41:41] the first time that they increase funding um in spite of the fact that there's many budget discussions going on [1:41:48] um and just to refresh everybody's memory um the Human Services Task Force [1:41:54] has somebody from every Commission on it and it sits and recommends this um um expense allocation um from the [1:42:03] city budget to worthwhile organizations that um work with ader residents that don't [1:42:10] provide that ser and the city doesn't provide that service elsewhere so we're at the end of our tenure now and [1:42:16] recommending increase funding for we'll see what the city thinks about it in this next budget go around so [1:42:25] thank you any anyone else right look to Carrie staff comments [1:42:31] yep just a quick update from the last council meeting they reviewed the sketch plan for the Eden 100 building on stilts [1:42:38] over here we're anticipating a formal application probably in the next month or so traffic it's a pretty big traffic [1:42:45] study that's underway and that's going to take some time and the other was the Highwood Drive the shifting of the lot [1:42:51] lines the council approved that and that's it could you share a little bit about council's thoughts on sketch plan [1:42:57] if you if you had any to summarize in general I think they were [1:43:04] supportive you know there was a lot some of the recommendations here um Shifting the building over creating more green [1:43:11] space activating uh the the street frontages [1:43:16] those types of things yeah it was good all right that it one last item [1:43:26] motion to close second all those in favor say I I [1:43:31] so moved the meeting has been adjourned thank you [1:43:52] everybody for