[0:07] saw a typ on you some of these minutes [0:21] somewhere you ready to go okay all right folks here we go I don't [0:28] know where we they found this thing but uh quite [0:35] a hope I didn't correct the countertop with that thing yeah good morning [0:41] everybody it is Thursday August 29 2024 uh wow Rolling Along through [0:47] towards Labor Day uh this is the meeting of the housing and re Redevelopment Authority for the city of viina this [0:54] Thursday morning it is 7:32 uh a.m. and um [1:00] we have uh been doing these meetings in a hybrid sort of fashion and uh sometimes there's two uh two [1:06] opportunities to call in a participate both with respect to community comment and uh public hearings we don't have any [1:12] public hearing this morning so the only opportunity for people to participate in the meeting would be through Community comment either here in Chambers or uh by [1:20] calling in uh in the uh virtual connections that you might have and here are the call-in numbers on the screen [1:27] and you should get ready and get those numbers down if you're listening into the meeting and want to address the HRA [1:33] on a matter that's not on the agenda today or otherwise scheduled for a future public [1:38] hearing um so we're going to now having having provided that information we're going to uh call the meeting to order [1:46] and we're going to ask Carri Teague our community development director who is subbing in for our executive director [1:52] today to call the role he's multi-purpose guy today yes thank you uh [1:58] commissioner Risser here commissioner Jackson here commissioner Pierce here commissioner agnu here chair huband here [2:06] uh next is the Pledge of Allegiance Pledge Allegiance to the the [2:14] United States of America and to the for which it stands one nation under God [2:21] indivisible with liberty and justice for [2:27] all we have a form of meeting agenda for their H this morning is there anyone who wishes to modify the agenda on the H or [2:34] from a staff standpoint is there a motion to approve the meeting agenda is published for the h so moved second [2:41] commission Jackson moves commissioner agu seconds the adoption of the meeting agenda as published uh any further discussion all [2:48] those in favor of adopting the meeting agenda is published say I I I oppos carried and now is the time for [2:54] Community comment so while we ask uh anyone in the audience if they wish to come forward and address address the [3:01] HRA uh I'm going to have those numbers put back up on the screen again so people at home can wherever you're [3:07] listening in from can get those numbers down if they want to call in is there anyone in the audience that wishes to [3:13] address the H in a matter of concern to them this morning okay seeing no one uh standing [3:20] up and coming forward or hearing anything we'll turn to the virtual world and see if we have anybody tuned in we [3:26] currently do not have any callers but because there is a slight delay in the broadcast I do recommend we wait one [3:31] minute before proceeding all right thanks Britney [4:23] okay we're coming to the end of the minute here and we still do not have any callers thank you very much um our [4:29] practice is to have our community development director respond to community comments from the prior meeting and uh director Teague do we [4:35] have anything that that we need to respond to from the pror meeting uh not this morning there were no comments at the last meeting all right very good um [4:43] we have a couple items on the consent agenda both draft minutes uh do we have any changes or Corrections there [4:49] otherwise entertain a motion to adopt the items on the consent agenda and a single motion so moved second uh [4:55] commissioner Jackson moves commissioner Pierce seconds the adoption of the items on the consent agenda a single motion uh [5:01] any further discussion all those in favor of adoption of the items on the consent agenda a single motion say I I I [5:07] oppos carried the items on the consent agenda are adopted and then the heart of the meeting today uh is the reports and [5:14] recommendations portion of the meeting we've got one matter that requires some potential action on the part of the HRA [5:21] and one is for discussion purposes only we're going to start with our uh [5:27] affordable housing director Stephanie Hawkins who is going to uh ask us to [5:33] approve a motion to allocate some funds that we have coming in uh from the state [5:38] and the um she's got some proposed allocation uses for local what's called local affordable housing aid and I'm [5:45] going to turn now to uh manager [5:57] hackinson yes thank you very much [6:12] 1920 19 2023 by the state legislature purely for affordable housing and it it [6:20] the funds um are collected from local area serials taxes sent to the Department of Revenue and allocated to [6:27] Metro cities based on a formula that has primarily from my understanding to do [6:33] with um housing cost burdened percentages so each City gets in the [6:38] Metro gets a portion of funds from the Department of Revenue that is sent to our finance department and has to be [6:46] deposited into a very specific account because we have to report every year to [6:51] Minnesota housing on how these funds are being spent in 2024 it was clarified that [6:58] these funds cannot replace existing funds that are used for affordable housing but need to augment funds that [7:05] are already used for affordable housing within the city and again the aid is distributed directly to City we already [7:11] received our first portion for 2024 so how can These funds be spent [7:17] this first came up um at for emergency rental assistance this this idea of this [7:23] local area sales tax was for emergency rental assistance they expanded it during the course of the legislative [7:28] session to to be to support various elements of affordable housing bricks [7:34] and mortar helping nonprofits um still the emergency rental [7:39] assistance uh to help support Supportive Housing an administrative Factor but it [7:45] has to it can't be like to offset my salary it has to go out into the [7:51] community to support affordable housing and I have a I wanted to show [7:57] since the formula is based on part on housing cost burn that any Dina about 50% of our renters and 22% of our [8:06] owners are currently housing cost [8:12] burdened so you've seen these slides before but I wanted to share them to give some um context as to the proposal [8:19] of how these funds should be spent there has been growing disparities between the cost of rent and incomes um this goes [8:28] back to uh 1984 to 2022 and it's a consumer [8:34] price index but but to just show scale of the differences between incomes and [8:40] rents and it's just growing people are becoming more and more housing cost burned for jobs that they have or career [8:47] paths that they've had or similar to people before them and their ability to [8:53] afford rent and housing costs so the same [8:58] job what you could get 20 years ago you cannot get today be that a um daycare [9:05] worker a cook in a restaurant a clerk um a teacher a Public Employee you know it [9:13] all all those the the housing costs have just outpaced incomes so people worry [9:20] about Edina changing if we put in or support affordable housing the reality is Edina is changing every Community is [9:28] changing and housing is become because housing is becoming more Out Of Reach [9:34] everywhere here's another and this is one that you have seen about median housing values and the income that's [9:41] needed to afford a median housing value and how it's estimated that in 2033 [9:47] they're going to be almost 1.2 million for the median price of a [9:53] home and so who can afford even now the [9:58] median price of a home being close to 700,000 that's the medium price and um [10:04] with some of our programs we set up to 425,000 is what we would purchase for a [10:12] home the amount of homes in that price range is rapidly [10:19] shrinking so I want and this I have I've shown this graph in other presentations but I haven't presented it yet I just [10:25] wanted to explain this a little bit just to give more context so this is how uh [10:31] for households that are four people households and what those charts are what they mean and what is Affordable so [10:39] if you're a home of four and you make $37,000 you earn less than 30% of the [10:47] area Medan income the maximum rent that you could pay without being housing cost burned is [10:53] 931 the home value that you could buy is $11,000 [10:59] if you're a family of four and you make 124,000 you're between the 80 and 100% [11:06] of Ami you can afford all things being equal without [11:12] extensive bills or child care costs and all that um $3,000 in rent and you can [11:17] afford a home that's $400,000 and again the top of the list [11:23] is we've talked that attainable housing being up to 120,000 per or 120% % of area median [11:30] income well that for a family for be about 150,000 and the me and the home value bu [11:36] is almost $500,000 right that's compared to Idina so these are the charts and this is you [11:44] know based on the chart is based on the federal government the for this area the [11:51] median rents and the median home values are based on local Edina stats so our [11:57] median rent is $1,700 Citywide market rate affordable included [12:05] so that would serve a family of four that's in the 50 to 60% of area median [12:10] income our median income is 126,000 in the [12:15] city that could afford a home of $500,000 roughly but our median home [12:22] values are about $700,000 so we are not we are well above [12:28] our median home value are well above the median income household in the [12:34] city so let's look at it percentage wise of um based on Sur uh American Community [12:40] survey of who is living in Idina now and what they could conceivably [12:45] afford so for a home value that's greater than uh a income of a greater [12:51] than 150,000 to get above that 120% Ami from previous tables fewer than 50% the [12:59] population fits that so far fewer than 50% of the population can afford a [13:05] median priced home we have 14% of the population that makes less than [13:12] $25,000 we have 7% that makes less than um between 25 and $50,000 so we have 58 [13:20] 57% of the population makes less than 120% of the area meean income yet our [13:26] housing costs far exceed that in both rental and well rental we're getting in [13:33] the middle of that but at least for home ownership of existing current residents [13:39] major Hawkinson hit the pause button for a moment here commissioner Jackson has a question for you yes thank you so when I [13:46] was looking at this to prepare the question that popped in my mind immediately is we have a lot of retired [13:51] people um who are living maybe on Social Security can you break this down does it [13:56] break down by age of of families at all I have it a later slide a little bit differently I could okay and I did have [14:03] a slide about where um households so childbearing age fall in this and [14:10] seniors clearly on the lower end um households of childbearing age more [14:15] there are more that reach that 150,000 a year point but it's still a [14:21] minority of the folks and I could um on this format I could do that I deleted [14:27] them for a time yeah no that's fine but maybe offline I'd be interested in Workforce age so up to 65 so you know [14:35] maybe 18 to 65 would I would be interested in how that demographic breaks into this [14:41] categorization okay so because we don't kids aren't make they may make making some money but not you know enough to [14:47] support a household I hope that's they're not supporting households same with after 65 maybe you're working maybe [14:52] you're not so that that Workforce age I'd be interested in seeing that okay thank you so much we do [14:59] this touches upon that a little bit so according to the Census Data 74.8% of [15:05] the white e Diner residents own their homes and 25.2% rent conversely 18 19.8% of black [15:14] African-American Adina residents own their homes and 80.2% rent so this this also leads into [15:21] our um goals with equity and inclusion and where we're putting our efforts with [15:26] housing and um so you know the focus [15:32] on this is outside my presentation a little bit I think we still need to pay attention to rental housing and not [15:40] shipped entirely away to ownership if we [15:45] want to read the data and if we want to respond to the [15:52] data um and here's a little bit to your question uh according to the Census Data 71% of seniors and 51% of households of [16:00] childbearing Ages have incomes of less than 150,000 Which is less than what's needed [16:07] to buy a medium priced home granted it's a different situation seniors may want a downsize not all um I talked to a lot of [16:15] seniors and there's some that just want to shift maybe a smaller home but not [16:20] necessarily going into rental and there's just nothing out there so 26% of seniors have incomes less than 50,000 [16:27] and so they would I mean that's 50% of our current population of seniors qualify for affordable [16:33] housing and 50% of households of childbearing age cannot afford a medium priced home and so we talk about the [16:40] school population and how we have 20% of um open enrollment and we're trying to [16:47] attract households with kids our housing prices tend to be pretty high for people [16:54] that want to start families in the city all right so that's laying the [16:59] framework for this laa money the real reason I'm here so our allocation that [17:06] came not from local taxpayer money but from um sales taxes metrowide that all [17:13] went to Department of Revenue and were divied up according to this formula for 2024 was 340,000 roughly we expected [17:23] closer to 700 but um it's lower than anticipated and it's also captur seven months [17:29] because of when the bill was passed and enacted so it's a shorter time frame but we depending on people's sale buying [17:37] habits it will fluctuate and what I am proposing is since the initial intention of this [17:44] money was for emergency rental assistance that we allocate 100,000 towards emergency rental assistance and [17:52] the remainder to one of our um ownership preservation programs where of the [17:57] remaining few homes that we can acquire to preserve for long-term affordability [18:02] we add some money to them um habitat is running low on their funds and homes Within Reach I think is on their last [18:09] home of what they can use with their funds so who is vep vep is volunteers [18:17] enlisted to assist people and they offer um food counseling and emergency rental [18:24] assistance they've been in operation for 50 years they work out of Bloomington [18:29] but they serve iina Richfield Bloomington I think South um parts of South West Minneapolis or South [18:36] Minneapolis and a representative from vep is here if there are questions thanks for being with us this [18:44] morning so beginning with the pandemic we started giving them money we saw what [18:49] was on Horizon that there was going to be a lot of people who are unable to pay rent and through um our affordable [18:57] housing trust fund uh the cares act and arpa we were able [19:03] to provide them with money enough almost a million dollars to help [19:09] 619 Idina households with emergency rental assistance that many ad um [19:15] households needed emergency rental assistance to avoid [19:22] eviction yet the need continues we thought that there was going to be a bubble right after the um eviction War a [19:28] atorium was lifted it's been constant the evictions are still happening at a really really high rate so 2024 [19:38] statistics uh 6% of the emergency assistance was awarded to a dino residence people were denied that [19:45] applied for money because there was not enough money and there was not enough capacity they have few staff and a lot [19:52] of people requesting money so they have their applications open for a couple days at the end of the month they get [19:58] enough in where staff is just rapidly trying to process the [20:03] papers and they have to put a limit on that because there's only soone need they can process and there's only so [20:08] many funds so but of the 23 that have applied [20:14] or that have been awarded funds they've used 16% of the funding available in vep [20:19] overall and there are still people applying and like again people have been denied due to lack of [20:26] funds so $100,000 is what I want to go to vep the need continues even though [20:33] we're in a post-pandemic world and these are our residents in the city the other the remaining funds I'd [20:39] like to help with our affordable preservation ownership program this again help um buys homes that are on the [20:44] market or people have contacted me I got I've received two calls in the past two weeks from people are looking to sell [20:52] their homes to this program um they're we're having a meeting about one of them [20:59] next week um habitat went and looked at it it the prices are getting higher they're creeping up we had a soft cap of [21:07] 425 homes now that are approaching us are at 500 or a little more so we have [21:12] to weigh that out but there's just not much on the market that's less than that so applying These funds towards the [21:19] acquisition of these homes rehab and place them in a land trust for long-term affordability for ownership since 2020 13 homes have been [21:27] bought um they're sold for roughly 200 that number's creeping up a little bit uh so there's about $300,000 of Gap [21:35] in a home that is in the land trust to keep it affordable for 99 years so if you think that 300,000 being spread over [21:42] 99 years for a home it softens it a little bit uh 12 of those homes are now [21:48] occupied by people mostly um people with young [21:54] children um and the home ownership has made a reality for researcher educator [21:59] utility worker Chef family advocate so a lot of these folks have benefited from this [22:05] program so that's how I'd like to use our 2020 2024 allocation of laa it's for those [22:12] two programs a quick question for you uh has vep exhausted the funding that we've [22:20] provided indeed um mayor uh chair yes indeed they have okay so the funds [22:26] they're using now um there's an allocation from the county in the block grant funds they apply to the county and [22:32] they get a portion but it it's not nearly enough to um meet the [22:38] need commissioner Comm rer thank you for that presentation and the number the [22:46] 100,000 that will how long will that last will that last until we you know [22:51] presumably get another laa infusion [22:57] um uh I I'm gonna ask Carrie if I may come up I don't know it's the short answer um [23:05] how long generally will that last I hard to say would you please come up and give [23:11] a you have a better ability to estimate how long 100,000 will last than I do yes [23:16] thank you and you introduce yourself too please and tell us the organization you're with good morning Commissioners [23:22] my name is Carrie Thompson and I am the CEO of vep thanks for being with us [23:29] and did you hear the question um yes how long will the $100,000 last um I think that would for [23:36] sure last through the entire year for us uh right now um as Stephanie mentioned [23:43] we are seeing an increased need again for rental assistance it really actually [23:49] just never went away it's just most of the funds that we were receiving throughout the pandemic went away um one [23:55] of the things I wanted to mention too and thank you for that presentation Stephanie that was great um she had [24:01] mentioned that there were 619 households that were helped by Dina fund so I want to thank you for that um very much you [24:08] were one of the first cities that actually stepped up to really help out at the beginning of the pandemic so we really appreciate that that being said [24:15] we also received several more million dollars in funds from other sources so [24:20] the number of households that we actually served throughout the pandemic was really closer to 1,500 households in [24:27] the city of Idina who rent we gave out close to $1.6 million in Idina over the [24:33] period of the pandemic um so we are still seeing an increased need as [24:39] Stephanie mentioned and uh right now we are having to turn away households from [24:45] the city of Edina as she mentioned we receive cdbg funds that are good for the city of Edina and then some henpen [24:52] County additional rental assistance funds but we have used some of our cash reserves as well and moved them over [24:59] into our budget to really continue to be able to help people who are in need um we have seen close to let's see we've [25:07] helped about 50 households so far this year with about 50 close to $50,000 of [25:12] rental assistance we've also had to turn away 68 households this year for various [25:18] reasons mostly due to capacity and or funds that are available so this [25:24] $100,000 would really go to help a lot of households that we are still seeing in the city of Vina and I think that we [25:30] would be able to use that throughout this year one commiss rer slightly different [25:39] topic but it it does um address Rising costs and I did really appreciate the [25:45] email that you sent to us uh manager hackinson about insurance and how that was having an impact the rise and cost [25:51] of that and we did hear several months ago it was back in March from a resident [25:56] who came forward um Floyd gel to talk about Rising interest and how hard or [26:02] the cost of insurance and how hard it is sometimes even for um residential [26:08] facilities to get insurance coverage and I'm wondering if you could sort of speak to the impact that you might be how that [26:16] how you might be seeing that um in insurance cover insurance and just being [26:22] covered by that homeowners insurance right so VP actually doesn't do work with homeowners we do work with renters [26:29] only so I wouldn't have that information for you okay I asked this really badly I'm just wondering if if you're seeing [26:35] that as being a contributing factor to Rising rents and in Insurance yeah oh I [26:43] see what you're say not the owners of the rental properties okay yes it's early thank you yes um I would have to [26:50] look into that data to I don't have that data with me today so I'm not sure um [26:56] we're definitely seeing a variety of of reasons um due to inflation costs of [27:02] everything going up for being part of the reasons why people can't pay so I would imagine anecdotally that that [27:08] would be one of the reasons as well I just don't have that information in front of me welcome Comm Pierce uh thank you um [27:19] Mr chair is that what we're calling you um so thanks for the the [27:26] presentation um really great data um I just have of course I support this my [27:34] question is how do we prioritize the funding um and so if we [27:42] have such a need from an emergency standpoint uh for people who may become [27:48] homeless if they don't get that need and then on the other side we're trying to [27:53] preserve homes for people to purchase that can be affordable how do we figure [28:00] out like well should the majority of our money go to vep to help people who are [28:07] currently in their homes and can't afford them to pay their rent versus [28:12] buying a home and remodeling it and so there's right there's the the tension of [28:18] two goods is what what that is and so I'm just curious how you think through [28:24] um what our priori should be at this point in time uh commiss chair Commissioners yes I [28:32] mean $334,000 is not much to try to scratch [28:37] the surface of all these needs I was waned against what I've heard priorities are from the dis you [28:45] know that we really need to focus um on affordable ownership and I've heard the need for [28:53] bringing young families into the city to help support our schools so so that's [28:59] really what drove part two yet I could not ignore [29:04] the fact that people current residents are losing their homes and I'm getting emails and calls from people on the [29:11] verge of homelessness and you don't I sent you one email I could forward on dozens of [29:19] phone calls um so I was really trying [29:25] to do both with a limited amount of money that I have available to me to do [29:33] so Mr Jackson thank you Mr chair so I I'd like to go into a little bit deeper [29:40] about the allowed uses of this money um uh commissioner Risser referenced [29:47] this we have seen with condominiums in town that the cost of um property [29:53] insurance has skyrocketed is it possible for us because I know we did the bonding [29:59] to help with repairs of a of a Condominium Association is it possible for us to use this money to um [30:07] supplement the cost of ensuring um some of our naturally occurring affordable Condominiums and town [30:16] homes chair Commissioners I would need to look into that that [30:21] is a Nuance that is not directly covered in the legislation um you know they they talk [30:29] about financing the operation management of R Residential Properties but that goes to that was um due to Common Bond [30:37] and Aon and PPL seeking a lot of um management support of these buildings [30:44] because the rents weren't coming in and they still needed to pay their bills and so a lot of nonprofit owners uh became [30:52] underwater and so they got an they received an infusion not nearly as much as they requested so it's intended for [31:01] that for the management of affordable rental I have not heard anyone talk [31:07] about ownership because that's individual people rather than a management company that oversees all of [31:15] that individuals are although it's HOA so I would I need to do some digging on [31:20] that and for future allocations yeah I I would appreciate that because I think that's for the money we put into [31:26] ownership there are a couple other things um on ownership category I'm you know we've done this Pro program of you [31:33] know come home to Adina it's been a wonderfully successful program it's also highly inefficient as you've pointed out [31:39] you know we put a lot of money to help one family whereas some other programs are spread to help more families so [31:46] there's always that balance as well between not just ownership and Rental but also you know concentration on one [31:52] versus helping a lot more people so my other questions are can it money be used [31:58] um for the programs that we currently have to help people repair their homes um whether it's a condominium or a [32:04] single family home or um the environmental upgrades that we're that Pro those programs we have um chair [32:11] Commissioners yes um they can we do have a rehab program that is still funded [32:16] there's still funding in our rehab program and the priority for that is to meet health safety code issues and [32:23] environmental upgrades there is um as you have heard a there's housing costs [32:31] burden and there's energy cost burden that also hits lower income households [32:37] much more than higher income households to pay for energy costs so with the [32:42] homes Within Reach and habitat programs they do that's one of their priorities too is energy upgrades to lower the [32:48] operating costs these funds could be and when I thought we were getting closer to the 700 I had a third line item on there [32:56] that was for energy upgrades um we also have our 4D program that is [33:01] has a little bit of money left into it and that is when um a Noah property [33:06] agrees to keep their property affordable they can receive a grant for energy [33:13] upgrades um so that's operational it's not very popular I've had like two [33:19] applicants in four years um nonetheless we have that and there's [33:24] still a little bit of money left in that so we are trying to tackle some of these issues and yes laa [33:30] can be used for that okay and then you know the housing associ or the housing Foundation has a second mortgage program [33:38] that's running out of money could we use this money for that uh chair Commissioners yes okay so [33:45] um I will tell you where my priorities are I think um the housing assistance [33:51] these numbers about people who are really in need um is alarming I would give more money um than 100,000 to [33:59] rental assistance um I don't think you know 239 is halfway to buying one of these houses [34:05] not even halfway to buying a single house for the come home TW Dino program [34:10] so I would suggest you know giving more for emergency rent and then I'd like to [34:17] see well maybe you know maybe this year it's too late because you've done all your calculations and everything but um [34:23] as far as going into H home ownership this business of um [34:28] condominium fees and Co-op fees and stuff skyrocketing people have fixed [34:33] incomes they've moved into these homes with a thing and now suddenly they can't afford to live there and so it's it's a [34:40] crisis on the ownership side as well um and that we haven't seen before because well two years ago everybody got a new [34:47] roof when it hailed and now I think that's what caused the insurance to go up so I'm really concerned about people [34:54] who own their homes whether it's a in a condo or a co-op which is what you know we want to encourage people to have [35:00] these energy efficient homes and not lose their Equity but they're going to because um these um user fees really or [35:07] the condo fees are going up so it may be too late to do anything about that but [35:12] um you know if we've got a housing crisis people are about to lose their homes I think $100,000 is a drop in the [35:19] bucket so I would double that and then put the other into one of the existing programs that we have if it's that where [35:26] there's a need so if if the 4D program people aren't taking it up I wouldn't put money into that but if the it's the [35:33] second mortgage program or the environmental upgrades if people are using those funds I'd like to see that [35:39] go into it um and the the owners because you know when I think of ownership I think of condos as well as single family [35:45] homes and I I'm very concerned about that population right now so that's [35:51] that's my feedback you commissioner commissioner eggu thank you and thank you so much for [35:58] the presentation today I think my overwhelming sense and I kind of heard that from some of my fellow [36:03] Commissioners is there's just not enough money right and so I'm sitting here just thinking about how do we continue [36:11] looking for additional sources and I know that's not the topic [36:17] of discussion today but just know that like that is continually what's in the back of my mind and I know the back of your mind as well and so with this [36:26] money I I feel this is like the right proportion to go into the vep emergency [36:33] as well as the affordable ownership reasons being um we had the wonderful [36:39] CEO come and speak to the fact that this probably feels like the right amount um it sounds like for the next however [36:46] amount of time the year or to the end of the year I wasn't quite clear but I don't want to over allocate and have it [36:52] go unused and so it's kind of that balance I think that we're all trying to find is as much as we can force C what's [36:58] going to be the right amount put that towards the vep component and then everything else I'd love to see in the [37:04] home ownership opportunity because I think we should also start thinking [37:09] about maybe this is where commissioner Jackson was going what can we do in some of these [37:14] situations where even the home ownership [37:21] that residents thought would be more stable or forecastable is no longer [37:27] affordable for them are there opportunities are there new programs we can think about are there um different [37:33] ways that we can help those residents in particular I don't know the answer to that but that's where my mind goes is we [37:40] have new problems I think that seem to be arising because of the high cost of [37:46] insurance the inflation of HOA that we hadn't come up with a solution for as a [37:52] city yet maybe it's time to think about is there a new Pro program we should be [37:57] adopting to combat that in particular um but at the same time a new program isn't [38:04] going to solve the problem of us still not having enough funding to do what we want to do as a community so I I think [38:10] that this is as best as we can do with what we have um but I I just one want to [38:16] plant that seed of of think through is there are there ways that we can very tactically help those people in need um [38:25] and then just again just challenge to the rest of us we need to keep thinking about this because this isn't enough [38:30] thank you thank you commissioner uh couple of [38:35] questions for you um our 2024 allocations on the screen What's the [38:41] timing of that is that is that arrived yet or is it soon to come and what what [38:47] time of the year is this allocation coming and and how did you go about [38:52] estimating that our annual allocation be um over double what what it is [38:57] over over a normal 12 12 month cycle chair Commissioners um we there's [39:04] a chart on the department of revenue for laa on what each City's estimated to [39:10] receive and so when the legislation was passed it showed that we were um estimate to receive like 667,000 so I [39:18] went off of that and then a new chart was published once the tax revenues came in and were entered at the Department of [39:24] Revenue and they re they recalc Cal ated and it came up with the [39:30] 339 we have received uh one half of this [39:35] already it's in our account the other half is expected in [39:41] December um I will say since it's a brand new program and this is for 2024 [39:46] and it's August that as soon as we have an estimation or I hopefully it will be [39:55] before August of 2025 that I'll be coming back to because they had to get you know it's a new program and so all [40:01] the systems need to be in place as soon as I know 2025 is [40:06] allocation and I'll be doing research and ahead of time I will come to you and [40:14] see um how you want that spent I will also say it can be banked for a few [40:23] years um to crew a bigger band balance my question with that is the vep [40:30] need is now people are facing eviction now and And to clarify it's the homes [40:37] Within Reach program not the come home to diner program um and this would be coupled with money they're getting from [40:43] at Council in Minnesota housing and hennipen County to buy the homes but this would be the approximate Gap um [40:51] those homes the amount um available in the price points that make this program reasonable those homes are disappearing [40:58] every day so that's why I did not recommend banking this because the needs [41:05] now aren't going away and they are exacerbating um but I will you know that [41:14] HOA fee is also a need that's now and I will look into that for [41:19] 2025 but this is how so to answer your question we have received half the other [41:25] half is expected to end up in our account in December okay and do you expect our allocation over a full 12 [41:32] month period to closer to the 667 than what we did [41:37] get this year because it was a shorter time [41:43] span or don't you don't you have a sense that it's hard because this is seven months worth and so if it's 70% of the [41:50] whole um it would still be hard to get to the 667 it depends on people spending habits [41:57] people need to go shopping and pay sales tax and that's how we get the funds so [42:07] it depends on people's shopping habits one thing that was helpful to me this morning was hearing Miss Thompson say [42:12] that the 100,000 would get us through a year the end of the year I believe yeah end of the year and so then we'll be [42:19] coming up with another allocation period and we we really rely on your advice I [42:25] mean you're in this every day all day getting calls from people understanding [42:31] what the rhythm of things are and where the needs are so personally I'm pretty [42:37] comfortable with what you recommended I'm comfortable with it because I think we we meet the needs at v through the [42:44] end of the year relative TOA and then this affordable home ownership issue is [42:49] an important one I think to be thinking about to be we know from that work that Hazel Reinhardt did for the city and the [42:55] school district the former state tomographer that the kids are in single family homes and um every kid in a seat [43:02] at the school is $8 or $10,000 a year from the state that's we we know we've [43:07] learned that that's the primary source of their funding so I like this notion [43:14] of allocation and and in terms of nuancing it I don't think i' do as good a job of [43:21] that as you would and that's why we count on you to come up to us with these recommendations on how to use these laa [43:27] funds so at least on the first go around I pretty comfortable with very comfortable with what you've recommended [43:34] I prompted anybody else to have anything they wanted to comment on commissioner Risser um I too am very comfortable with [43:40] this and I didn't mean to open a can of worms by talking about the insurance going up um yeah chair commissioner [43:46] that's an issue and it needs to be addressed somehow I just don't know at what level if it's a federal level City [43:52] level I I don't know this has prompted more thought here commissioner [43:58] Pierce oh jackon go ahead yeah so I I I'm didn't want to um I want to say [44:07] thank you you have put a ton of time into this I have to ask questions because there's [44:14] so many needs um and I was going to raise the insurance issue on my own so [44:19] it wasn't a can of worms but it is it's a huge need that's out there um thank you for clarifying on the um homeown [44:27] ownership because I did I looked at that 240 uh $240,000 and I'm like so thank [44:33] you very much if it can be spent that'd be great um and so yeah this is this is [44:38] a first shot um I think this is good I I do worry about people losing their homes [44:45] that because it's horrible for the families and it's so much more expensive [44:51] to get them into into out of into homelessness out of homelessness and into a home rather than keep them in [44:57] their homes so it's it's traumatic for them it's expensive for everybody else so um you know I will I will rest on [45:04] your expertise on $100,000 but I did want to express that that's uh that's alarming to hear that people are about [45:10] to lose their homes so um so I will uh approve uh the allocation today but with [45:16] the new ideas out there um thank you thank you commissioner commissioner B Mr [45:22] chair thank you um I just wanted to just underscore a couple of things one [45:27] I really appreciate um you highlighting that we trust the experts and the staff [45:34] to really make the right decisions with this funding um and so I definitely [45:40] agree with that um it is um and we sit on the Das we get the information but [45:47] you're in it every day um and so it is I [45:52] definitely put more weight on your recommendations than than just my own [45:59] because I I know that you're in it um every day um and then the second thing I [46:05] wanted to just to go back to member AG new's point about funding [46:11] um this is an issue of funding right and we do need other sources um to really be [46:19] able to start to make a dent on this and the um Edina housing Foundation is is is [46:25] doing some strategic I work to kind of think about that as well um um and I [46:32] think at the start of the year we are kind of have to lean back into all right [46:39] what are some other sources that we can utilize and this might be uh [46:44] controversial but I'll say it why not um it does strike [46:51] me that we can do a sales options sales tax for [46:57] parks and get that to pass 75% but when we look at other issues [47:04] like this it's just harder to convince people that this is not a problem just [47:10] for lower income earners this is a problem that will permeate throughout [47:16] all of Indina if we don't figure out a way to solve it and U mayor has said [47:24] this a u a lot of time uh numerous times it's not just a problem in the state of [47:31] Minnesota right this is every state is faced with this um and um we definitely [47:38] will need to lean into trying to figure out what are some other uh funding [47:43] sources that we can leverage uh to really make a dent and keeping people in [47:49] their homes if they are rent challenges um and then as well as preserving um [47:55] affordable housing as well so thanks for all the the work that you've done [48:01] today so uh you are requesting the HRA to approve the allocation of the 2024 [48:07] laa funding uh as recommended and authorized staff to engage with the city attorney to draft the appropriate [48:13] funding agreements to be presented to the HRA board for final approval is that correct okay is there a motion to that [48:19] effect so move go ahead member member rer moves commissioner rer moves [48:25] commissioner Jackson seconds the motion stated uh any further discussion all those in favor of adoption of the motion [48:30] stated say I I I opposed carried thank you for that presentation and now Bill nondorf our uh [48:38] economic development director is going to um help set up the stage for an [48:43] update on this concept we've been talking about uh as a possibility um [48:51] France so-called France Avenue pedestrian Crossing [49:04] yes good morning our sub second topic this morning uh is actually the continuation of a discussion we began uh [49:11] in Late July uh about the potential uh to create a pedestrian Crossing at [49:16] France Avenue that would connect the two projects at 7200 and then at 7235 uh so this morning we wanted to [49:23] finish that conversation uh when we started that uh you whoops you all had several questions and wanted to have [49:29] more conversation so we were able to schedule this time to to uh to finish that um a reminder that this uh uh is [49:39] for discussion only it's a concept um and at this point we're not seeking any direct action from you not an approval [49:46] or a denial um but we wanted to make sure that you've got the most upto-date information that we have uh we just [49:53] received the draft report from the engineering firm and uh uh they're here this morning to present an overview of [49:58] that um it's the same update same images you saw a few weeks ago ago but just in [50:04] more of a um narrative type of fashion um but the reason that we're continuing [50:09] with this conversation is because time is of the essence if this is something [50:14] that we think is worth pursuing um staff would need to be aware of that in the next few months with the [50:21] capital Improvement plan coming up with these two developers moving forward with their plans what we're trying to do is [50:28] have uh the developers build as much of this as they can if it's again if it's [50:33] something that we want to see um and uh they move at a faster Pace than than we [50:38] typically do so time is of the essence there but again this morning I'd like to introduce Mike fiser and his team from [50:44] from lhb um and they'll uh run through the presentation we're going to hope to go through the presentation quickly so [50:51] that we can get to your comments questions and discussion and with that I'll turn it over to the team at lhb [50:58] thank you thank you Bill um Mr chair [51:04] Commissioners thank you for the opportunity to present our feasibility report here today uh bill called it a [51:10] concept and I actually want to say that it's not a concept this is really you uh [51:16] and and and I'm going to show something so the that was a concept yourself too please I'm sorry Mike fiser with lhb [51:23] thank you um this was a concept you know probably from late last year uh as we [51:30] went through that whole brainstorming exercise to see if something could work here that had the right sort of Human [51:36] Experience attached to it where where we could either cross over or under the street um and so we're we were asked to [51:44] then uh put together a team to study Is it feasible can we make this concept [51:49] work so the report that you got is a draft and it's a draft because we want to get your comments and staff comments [51:55] before it's final ized um so we put together a team uh to [52:00] to see if this was feasible Brad rste will be talking in a minute he's managing the engineering side of this [52:07] behind him we have um Matt sedran who leads our transportation division so [52:12] very experienced on roadway design we have John Cedar who leads our Bridge division um and so the two of them are [52:20] very critical to this now they're not here talking they're kind of in our conversations with the county and [52:25] they're looking at sort of the design and you know thicknesses of structures and all those sorts of things um but I [52:32] just wanted you to know that there are people on the team that you're not seeing here and we have Michael [52:37] Schroeder who's looking at The Human Experience side of this which is identified by all of us as really [52:43] critical uh if this Crossing is to be successful so [52:49] uh what we talked about with that concept is you know not talking about a tunnel under the street but more of this [52:55] bridge Lake on York Avenue and that was that was the idea is is that possible on [53:01] France Avenue um we showed you the the latest sketch plans you know just kind of a [53:07] collage of the developers plans and um what's interesting is as we [53:13] went back and sort of looked at the planning that's done up to this point it was actually shocking to me that for 20 [53:18] years Studies have pointed to this site as the place to make a Crossing if we [53:24] were to make a crossing and they all of those studies sort of refer to the fact well if ever there was an opportunity [53:30] where there was Redevelopment happening on one or both sides that would be a great time um so I'm just going to jump [53:37] to the to the sort of the the answer in our feasibility report which is we [53:43] believe that this Crossing is feasible uh from an engineering constructability [53:50] and Human Experience perspective Financial feasibility is really going to [53:55] ultimately be your your decision not ours so um but we're going to share a little bit about what we believe costs [54:02] might be and what funding sources might be available so um I think we're going to [54:09] start with Brad just to very briefly talk about the engineering aspects thank you Mr [54:16] Fisher thank you Mike uh good morning Commissioners my name is Brad RC I'm a [54:21] senior project manager with lhb um the graphic on the screen here here um indicates the construction [54:29] limits that I would take to accommodate a bridge underpass for France Avenue the [54:36] yellow is indicating the roadway pavement and the red uh indicates the concrete curbs and gutters and [54:43] medians uh a couple takeaways here is that uh the lane configurations would [54:48] not uh change um for the southbound or [54:54] Northbound lanes and the overall width of France Avenue would not change there are some slight modifications that would [55:01] be needed um for the center median and uh the right turn lane that goes into [55:08] the uh the berle's and existing Macy's property on the east [55:15] side so this next exhibit shows those modifications that it would take to uh [55:23] again provide that experience for the The Underpass uh the widening of the center median would provide a larger Gap [55:32] to add the naturalite that we're looking for uh but it doesn't really impact the [55:38] through Lanes uh on that northbound lane uh there is a little uh taper that that [55:44] occurs there now that uh is used to avoid the uh median that uh is [55:50] protecting the left turn lane that goes uh to 72nd Street there uh and then the [55:56] significant change that we're proposing is to reduce the the deceleration Lane [56:02] on that right turn lane uh into that uh existing private driveway that goes to [56:08] the uh Macy's and and berer leas property um again this this exhibit was [56:15] shared the last time we were here um the focus here is more on the the lower half [56:21] the graph uh this would be the um profile [56:26] France Avenue the the existing profile is the is the bold black line uh the [56:32] proposed profile would be uh the green line that goes over the top um again we [56:38] have uh approximately 7 ft in difference between the existing and the proposed [56:45] elevation that would be needed uh to accommodate the the the bridge [56:50] underpass uh the approximate elevation of France Avenue if this would to occur [56:57] would be about 860 uh feet um and the uh existing [57:04] profile is is around 853 so approximately 7 ft difference in [57:10] height um I think this next uh photograph illustrates the existing [57:16] conditions we're standing here at the intersection of Gallagher drive and France Avenue looking north um and the [57:24] existing uh parking lot of Macy's is around 860 um so that's where the new bridge uh [57:31] potentially could uh be at the the same elevation of that existing so um again [57:40] um we think that this location is probably uh the most feasible location [57:45] for this type of underpass uh just because of the existing conditions of um the two [57:51] developments on either side and the existing roadway profile and the ability to to raise France Avenue in a [57:59] reasonable manner to get uh to build the bridge uh underpass so with that said Mr [58:06] R commissioner Jackson has a question for you sure yes what you just said was extremely important this is the most [58:14] feasible spot to put a pedestrian crossing over France compared to [58:21] what so I think Mr schroer M Mike will address those conc concerns um I know [58:28] Mike and and Mike have looked at other options within the city um and I think they'll go through the some of that [58:34] detail Well I this is an engineering question sure so given that you know [58:39] France looks flat but it isn't obviously engineering wise this is a [58:46] really good spot to put a bridge underpass kind of thing from an engineering [58:52] perspective and are there have you did you compare this to other spots along [58:58] this stretch of France Avenue um not from an engineering's perspective okay [59:03] thank you that's what I wanted to clarify so good oh I'll just add one comment thanks yes please Chad mner city [59:08] engineer um this Point's unique because it's you can see the road is sunk down compared to the adjacent properties we [59:14] don't have that any other way on France so that just makes it uh order of magnitude easier to do an underpass [59:20] because we have the ability to raise the road and still match those adjacent properties so I would say we haven't [59:26] done an in-depth review of this whole Corridor but this is one of the easiest spots to do an underpass Bridge thank [59:32] you very much yep uh Michael schroer I'm a consultant [59:39] to the lhb team um so to to to answer a question that was raised a long time ago [59:45] it was about the location where where is it possible to cross France Avenue and we did a a diagram here that begins to [59:51] show like the possibilities and it builds on some of the work that's been done in the past P um probably maybe 15 [59:59] years or so ago uh there were intersection improvements that were using um some dollars that were available in City those are identified [1:00:05] at at uh in the uh the dark red kind of circles and there are some some [1:00:11] abilities to cross there but it still puts pedestrians and vehicles in the same Crossing pattern um what the [1:00:19] diagram really focuses on the two portions of the Cora neighborhood on the west side of France Avenue and where [1:00:25] else could they cross if it wasn't for those Crossing points and it really comes down to even if you look all the [1:00:31] way across and we we do this kind of uh this kind of diagraming in kind of a dendritic pattern like a leaf focusing [1:00:38] back on the main vein they come to a to they come to a point on the north side of 70th and the South Side the north [1:00:44] side they come to 68th and they somehow have to get across that big parcel to [1:00:49] get to France Avenue on the South Side uh with the exception of the area around the Cedars most neighborhood can only [1:00:56] get out at 72nd um and the the 72nd as as uh Brad and Chad were kind of [1:01:03] referring to becomes kind of a low point in this Crossing but there isn't a point to cross there because there's no [1:01:08] controlled intersection this being just half a parcel away or between two [1:01:14] Parcels actually becomes an opportune Crossing um from from where people are coming from and trying to get uh ac [1:01:21] across France Avenue so this this kind of Builds on some of the questions that were asked earlier about [1:01:26] where where would people be Crossing it's not an engineering study but rather where where where does it actually become possible one of the other things [1:01:33] we looked at is just the population in this area and when you add these four census tracks together um you come up [1:01:40] with a population of more than 10,000 almost 12,000 people which is significant a significant portion of the [1:01:46] population of udina that we would hope is crossing either to get to a school on one from one side or to get to Santina [1:01:52] Lakes Park and the shopping and other experiences of Southdale from from the west side so this is a [1:01:58] significant potential number of people who would be looking to cross uh France [1:02:04] Avenue um we we looked at circulation and this is a really kind of another [1:02:09] kind of crude diagram and um as um Michael fiser mentioned we shouldn't be looking at this as a design because [1:02:15] we're looking at it from a feasibility study but we are beginning to bring some design into it because it's important [1:02:21] that when we create an underpass that people will actually want to use it as opposed to Crossing grade or the more [1:02:27] difficult Prospect of getting people to go up and over France Avenue so we looked at could we actually make the grades work from an accessibility [1:02:34] perspective this is a a route that we need to meet the requirements of the Ada and it's particularly difficult on the [1:02:40] east side more difficult I would say but it is possible so we did this this diagram to demonstrate that's possible [1:02:46] um and we also recognize that there needs to be potentially pedestrian bicycle movements North and South [1:02:52] parallel in France Avenue so the the the the um gray on the west side is the [1:02:57] bicycle potential bicycle movements um the the pink would be The Pedestrian movements and the the blue is kind of [1:03:04] the combined U feature on the on the east side of the street each leading to [1:03:10] the the the underpass that's um highlighted in the black so so this is intended to show [1:03:16] that there is a potential the the circulation actually works the grades actually work from a pedestrian [1:03:22] perspective but then really it comes down to some of those features around what is it actually like to use this [1:03:28] facility so if we can make all the engineering work will people actually go to this place and experience it as they [1:03:34] would um the the rest of the Centennial Lakes and prominade features um and this [1:03:41] also ties in with the one of the Notions of the Southdale plan which was the design experience guidelines we wanted [1:03:48] to make this make certain that as we look at Southdale area when we did that plan that it was about the experience of humans in a district and so we wanted to [1:03:55] apply some of the the same principle so we we created some some really simple sketches kind of looking this is looking [1:04:00] uh North along France Avenue and you begin to see the the kind of and then there's lots of refinements that need to [1:04:07] be made like for instance on the east side we probably wouldn't have these tall walls they would be tapered back there's some limitations to to what we [1:04:13] want to do but we wanted to begin to suggest a certain kind of character um and it becomes important when we get is [1:04:20] we move through here that we have steps to climb we need to make those steps interesting so in this case we're we're [1:04:25] proposing that maybe the steps actually have little side pockets where people can sit and actually habitate the steps [1:04:32] as opposed to just having this large Bank of steps that rises up to that space that passes between the buildings [1:04:37] on the east side and you begin to see the the uh um the bridge uh itself and [1:04:43] you know it's with I think it's a a detailed question of whether it's actually a single Bridge with an opening or two Bridges but the opening in the [1:04:49] middle becomes important because there is that opportunity to bring light down into the underpass so as as we approach [1:04:56] that we get to this just kind of circulating around here we'll get to the to what it looks like and and again what [1:05:03] it is in the middle whether we have some kind of covering over that opening or not we we're still looking at that we [1:05:08] felt it was important to at least begin demonstrating something because there is a potential for snow and ice or whatever [1:05:14] the combination is of of that as snow plaws come through to be dumping down into the corridor the corridor that's [1:05:20] created below um this is looking Southward um [1:05:25] focusing more on the uh the East passage um but then you begin to see like what what the bridge actually looks like on [1:05:31] the east side we might actually have a pedestrian bicycle bridge that covers over the kind of a sunken Courtyard that [1:05:37] begins to go under the under the main bridge and as we pass under here I'll [1:05:43] point out some of the factors that I think are important um this is a narrower passage than what we've talked [1:05:49] about before we we first started out with a passage that might be 50 ft wide we're actually at 24t wide and it what [1:05:56] we what we understood as we kind of modeled this is that at 50 ft wide it's really loses that human scale it's [1:06:02] really too wide um if we go narrower uh 12 14 16 and you try to put pedestrians [1:06:08] and bicycles together it becomes too narrow so we landed on a passage that's about 24 ft wide with um an ability to [1:06:15] see straight through from one end to the other we're not hiding the destination point at the other end and the you can [1:06:21] see even that little bit of light that falls through the middle becomes important because it's a destination point for people as they walk through [1:06:28] the other thing that was interesting as we walked through this is that um we introduced a curve on the North side [1:06:34] just so there's some more Dynamic sense to this underpass and we don't think that we can do it without really [1:06:41] articulating some kind of like maybe art panels on one side and art features that kind of reach up and kind of envelop [1:06:47] people on on on the other side so some depictions about what the character of the under underp passage is becomes [1:06:54] important again it's not a design it's really just beginning to articulate what a an opening that is about 11 or 12T [1:07:02] High by 24 ft wide looks like and how does it begin to accommodate people as both pedestrians and [1:07:08] bicyclists and this is just a little further into it and then I'll turn it back over to Mr [1:07:15] reck thanks Mr shorter yeah can you come back up for [1:07:21] just a second before Brad goes back uh with respect to the you know Lighting in the middle uh [1:07:28] one of the things that I think we all uh understood and liked about Centennial [1:07:33] Lakes concept was that cars were going overhead but there was plenty of light coming through and it didn't feel like [1:07:40] you were in a passage way or a tunnel and that's one of the things that I am [1:07:45] concerned about is that county is saying oh yeah okay you can work in the median you can work in [1:07:51] the center median and we can expand that and you can get light in there and this whole uh kind of concept of a of the Lou [1:08:01] is uh I find kind of fascinating but I I think getting that natural light in [1:08:06] there is really critically important and and I'm wondering if constraints that the Cy's put on [1:08:13] us is there is in your opinion and thinking about The Human Experience is there enough light coming in there to [1:08:19] make a difference um chair hin um let let me speak that in a couple of different ways because we actually [1:08:26] modeled different scenarios with different openings at the top I think I forget how wide exactly this is it's not [1:08:33] 20 or 30 ft but when we first looked at it we we were wondering if we could actually take the lanes and move them [1:08:39] outward within the right of way to create more space in the median we modeled that and then we brought them back as the county said well we really [1:08:45] don't want you messing with our lanes and we brought it together in a model that's more like this one and what was [1:08:51] interesting even in this crude modeling is the P the perceived amount of light coming through wasn't significantly [1:08:57] different we also looked at could we take the ends instead of making more vertical walls kind of North and South [1:09:04] along France avue could we tip those back to get more light particularly from the south end and it also turned out [1:09:09] that it didn't make that much difference even at different times of day The Shadow or the the the pattern of light [1:09:15] would move around in the opening but the aggregate area of light didn't change that much so we could go to a lot of [1:09:21] contortions about moving Lanes or creating like other passes for light to come through but it didn't change the [1:09:28] basic idea that there's a that there's a pool of light as you move through that really becomes a Target as and marking [1:09:34] your progress through this so we've looked at different options and it turns out that the the the the pattern that [1:09:40] would align best with the County's interest is not that much different than if we could actually go to Great Lengths [1:09:46] to expand or to shift the alignment of the roads As you move north and south of the lanes As you move north and south [1:09:52] yeah that's that's quite interesting you know commissioner Jackson and I met with some neighbors uh few weeks ago [1:10:00] um and one of the things it was the passageway became [1:10:06] uh not a peripheral part of the conversation but maybe part of it and it [1:10:11] was that same Human Experience that they were concerned about you know folks that live in the neighborhood I think that [1:10:16] both you and member Fisher live in that were thinking about uh human safety uh [1:10:22] is there going to be a hangout spot for uh the you know people that are having a difficult time in life uh is there is [1:10:28] there a potential crime issue there and nobody has a sense of that at Centennial Lakes for everything's so open and eerie [1:10:35] and well lit and so I'm sure that you've thought about that too knowing knowing [1:10:40] you and and the work experience that you have could you comment on that uh CH yes [1:10:45] um so I I would say that there is that possibility but the idea if you look at [1:10:51] other places such centen likes it doesn't happen um when you look at at the kind of the corollary bridge at York [1:10:58] Avenue it doesn't seem to be happening there either and that's actually a very similar dimensionally it's very similar [1:11:04] dimensionally to what we're proposing here um but the as we [1:11:09] experience in miniapolis it it can it could happen and it becomes really I [1:11:15] think a as we've found a management issue because the design we we don't [1:11:21] want to um make the design experience the design experience less for those [1:11:26] people who are using the space legitimately so it really does become for as as we found in Minneapolis a [1:11:32] management issue and finding people who are facing homelessness who might be populating spaces they shouldn't to [1:11:38] encourage them to move along I I I will also just note that [1:11:43] um the city whe whether it's happening at Centennial Lakes or not I don't know [1:11:48] I know that the the um the people that we have encountered in Minneapolis Parks [1:11:54] do not want to be bothered by legitimate users of parks and so they have found other places to populate um and even as [1:12:02] the the park board has taken steps to keep people from populating Parks the homeless population has found ways to [1:12:09] identify locations that are not Parkland so they're not subject to par to our Park staff going out and moving them [1:12:14] along but it becomes uh I I think a a management issue uh at and it would seem [1:12:22] like the staff at Centennial likes if there are these issues are doing that well seems like another comment you just [1:12:29] made caused me to think that the higher the level of design the less likely it is to create the environment for this [1:12:36] kind of activity whether it's home homelessness somebody looking for shelter crime whatever it might be ch ch [1:12:43] and it's why if you if you're look at those even though they're crude depictions at this point the notion of introducing art and other features into [1:12:49] this passage I think really becomes important it's it's a it's supposed to be a design space and utilitarian [1:12:56] space then from a design experience standpoint or Human Experience standpoint you know when you first [1:13:02] started this work we we there's three ways to get across right at grade below grade above grade [1:13:10] and have you got any uh experience in Minneapolis or do you know of any other experience where if we if we shifted our [1:13:17] thinking and started thinking about going over instead of under uh [1:13:23] Financial uh implication ation aside uh do you have any data around that human [1:13:29] experience that would be helpful to us in our decision- making process chair [1:13:35] chair hin um it's not necessarily Minneapolis experience but years ago as a consultant I was working with the city [1:13:41] of Apple Valley in its downtown and as they looked at the the bus Rapid Transit [1:13:47] uh facility they had created with facilities on either side and an overcrossing with an elevator and stairs [1:13:53] um they found that people would not use it they would Dart across Fran across uh Cedar Avenue trunk Highway 77 as opposed [1:14:01] to using a facility that had been created with every accommodation for people to get up and down easily and [1:14:07] they ended up building a fence down the middle of Cedar Avenue to keep people from Crossing at grade so people um will [1:14:14] continue to cross at grade until there's I believe until there's a an easily [1:14:20] accessible route to follow um going up to go down is something that people don't like to do that's the example of [1:14:26] Cedar Avenue here we have the ability to naturally descend from what might be [1:14:32] called the West prominade I think we were calling that in the South Del study to naturally descend to go down under um [1:14:38] and we've been working closely with with uh Brad and his team to figure out what that elevation is so you comfortably [1:14:44] descend down and you comfortably Ascend back up to the point where you can enter centeno lakes and in the what the other [1:14:51] important uh locational element of this is that you end up uh re-engaging with [1:14:56] the prominade and Cen Lakes at at kind of that that point where you can go south to sentenia Lakes North along [1:15:01] along the prominade east into Richfield or if this were implemented West into the cor neighborhood okay this has [1:15:07] prompted commissioner Richard rard want to ask a question as well um yeah and I I share um many concerns of commissioner [1:15:16] or um chair huband because when we think about Centennial Lakes and we think [1:15:22] about the York passage we're talking about purely public realm and what we're [1:15:28] getting with this vision is a vision where we're bringing together the public and the private and my concern which I [1:15:35] voiced back in February when we awarded the $80,000 um contract to do the [1:15:42] feasibility study I specifically pulled it from the consent agenda and requested [1:15:48] that we bring the area down so that it did Encompass the Gallagher intersection [1:15:54] and the reason I did that was because I I wanted to know that your team explored [1:16:00] you know trying to find a way where it could be a purely public kind of thing and I'm wondering what you [1:16:07] found um commissioner rer it's a good question and I I think the it goes back to that that pattern of movement that we [1:16:14] were looking at so um this is uh as I mentioned from the West Side [1:16:20] um South the 70th the neighborhood will largely um this this is a a logical [1:16:25] connection to go Eastward for the for most of that neighborhood because it's centrally located within the [1:16:30] neighborhood the folks that wouldn't be directly accommodated would be the folks coming from the cedar Cedars that area [1:16:37] who are um crossing a grade today but it is just essentially half a block away a [1:16:44] few hundred feet away for them to create to get to a passage that's grade separated and away from from Vehicles so [1:16:51] if I'm understanding your question correctly well there's there's several things in that does rais you know to [1:16:56] your initial point that people will cross that grade unless you fence them off and we do have [1:17:02] that existing traffic light there at Gallagher and um we're talking about a [1:17:08] project that could be $20 million and yes we need to think about the community that is directly around it [1:17:16] but we also have to think of a broader user base and so and my concern from the [1:17:23] very beginning has been you know how does somebody get to this if they're on the 9M trail and I still [1:17:32] feel like I haven't had an adequate response to that the other because you [1:17:37] know thinking about the existing Pathways that are there um so that that's a concern the other concern is [1:17:43] there is a heaviness um to this and it is because you are literally going down [1:17:50] below grade and I know I did ask and we can say it's similar proportionately to [1:17:58] the York um Bridge situation there but it would be really helpful to know [1:18:04] exactly how similar it is because that little um area relatively speaking where [1:18:09] the light is coming through is limited and um you know we've seen [1:18:15] studies you had that sunlight study with buildings rising up I think you had the pan the pantheon um but those are [1:18:23] buildings above around and you've got lights streaming in and this is in the middle of a busy road and I'm you know [1:18:30] is there going to be flickering if you've got big trucks going by I mean is this going to be more of a a thing [1:18:35] that's like being by a railroad track and seeing how cars going by influence [1:18:43] the light I there's I I have so many questions and I'm I'm just getting very concerned [1:18:48] about the order of things um so I I realize I'm getting a [1:18:54] little bit off track here but back in February when we awarded that I thought we were going to get [1:19:00] um a study because the scope said that we would get the feasibility scope [1:19:06] within two to three months and that we'd get the full scope within 3 to four and and that's passed and and now when I [1:19:14] read the material it sounds like study is intertwined with the [1:19:20] specific site plans of the developers and that was never in the initial agreement and that makes me kind of [1:19:26] nervous especially when I read in the paper um about the coverage of it in the sun current with the concluding line [1:19:34] that the developers on both sides have been really wonderful in terms of being open to this but understand there's a lot of frightening elements to this if [1:19:40] you're a developer um so there's so much to Grapple with here and you're talking [1:19:48] about feasibility but as you noted feasibility you know [1:19:54] what is feasible um from your perspective you can talk about the engineering it's debatable about the [1:19:59] user experience and you're right it comes down to us um for financial feasibility when I read that this needs [1:20:07] to be included in the city's Capital Improvement plan and then when I hear at the beginning of this meeting that there [1:20:13] is a time crunch time is of the essence [1:20:18] I'm I am not ready to say especially because we're going over the capital [1:20:24] Improvement plan and we see you know the care that is taken and all of the things [1:20:29] that projects have to pass the screening that staff goes through we got that um [1:20:36] from assistant manager lent and I just feel like were we to go down this path [1:20:41] and say yeah sure we'd be short circuiting the process and just kind of pushing it there and I I just I'm very [1:20:47] uncomfortable with that I've said a lot but anyway thank you so uh yeah I'm [1:20:55] going to turn to commissioner Jackson but I understood the purpose this morning was to address the issues of [1:21:01] engineering feasibility the study that you're doing construction feasibility The Human Experience is why you're here [1:21:07] and the financial feasibility Yet to Come public input is yet to come um I [1:21:14] don't know manager new andorf um timing wise when terms of potential [1:21:20] coordination with development in each side mean we always understood in my mind that the reason this opportunity [1:21:28] existed was because these two Parcels were being developed across the road from each other and it was [1:21:34] therefore probable that if this if this worked that we'd be coordinating with them uh and it would be a public private [1:21:41] sort of Enterprise so um having said that I'm going to turn to [1:21:47] commissioner Jackson I don't know if you have any comment about timing you know because member rer commissioner rer is [1:21:52] worried about are we going are we going to move Mo too fast sure we want to be able to move promptly but not quickly [1:22:00] like we don't want to rush into into anything um but you'll you'll recall uh sitting as a as a city council you're [1:22:07] currently entertaining a final proposal for the 7200 site plan that building um could [1:22:15] engage with a elevated Plaza on the western side of the street or could engage with a lower Plaza at some point [1:22:23] they'll have to make that decision once they start building it and so that's why I say that time is of the essence [1:22:28] because they um the private sector isn't going to just wait for us they're going to keep moving so if we really want to [1:22:34] try to uh create something that is seamless and and wonderful for the long term um we should provide our our [1:22:40] Direction whether or not we want to proceed or not that being said we're not looking for any hasty decisions we we [1:22:45] need to really think through this um so that's why we're having the the [1:22:50] follow-up conversation this morning and we'll continue with that yeah I'm going turn not to commissioner Jackson yes [1:22:57] thank you Mr chair so this is a question for Mr fiser in your presentation you said that there were past studies on [1:23:04] this um and I think you know going back for at least 10 years if not further [1:23:09] could you tell tell us approximately where those studies are housed and and if you could share those with us or are [1:23:16] they City studies are they private um maybe okay question for our staff thank [1:23:22] you Mr be happy to resp to respond to that um so historically um on my [1:23:28] bookshelf when I started in this role uh quite a few years back I was given a copy of the 2005 Southdale area land use [1:23:36] and transportation study um uh I presume it's on the city's archive someplace but [1:23:42] um that was the first um document that I found that called for some improvement at this location um that 2005 study was [1:23:51] not formally adopted and not implemented um but that's a study I'm happy to to [1:23:57] dig that up and and uh and and scan it if it's not already in our archive online and then following that there was [1:24:03] a 2007 Urban Design study for the prominade um that's when we transitioned [1:24:10] that York Avenue tunnel that was more like a farmer's Culvert into something that was actually welcoming with art and [1:24:16] broader paths and everything so that 2007 study um uh also documented that at [1:24:23] approximately this ation that's where they were looking at some type of future pedestrian Improvement when the timing [1:24:29] was appropriate um uh those are the the two studies that that I'm aware of [1:24:34] somehow they would have trickled into our comprehensive plan back in 2008 and then probably in 2018 but those are [1:24:41] those two original documents okay so first of all thank you um and if you could find those so that [1:24:49] we could read through them I think that would be helpful and you know if we could post it on better together so the public could could see it I think that [1:24:55] would be good there is a sense of where is this coming from why now there's no data and it it's deeply baked into our [1:25:03] understanding of the movement in this area so I think that would be really useful to hear so Mr Teague um director [1:25:11] Teague could you tell us um I don't know what your title is this morning um would you be able to look at [1:25:20] the 2008 and 2018 comprehensive plan and see if there's any reference to this in [1:25:25] either the transportation or the land use study I or the Southdale documents I I think that would be useful as well [1:25:31] sort of see you know how if it's been out you know reviewed by the public and everything yes we can sure do that and [1:25:38] share with the commission okay great and then yeah if we could um you know have whatever we find posted up on a Better [1:25:45] Together page that'd be really wonderful that could people could read that M rer I did look at the studies that are [1:25:52] linked at the Better Together site um and I think it's the 2007 study and [1:25:58] there yes this area is noted but there's also 69th Street there's also 72nd [1:26:04] Street there's um drawings of potential Bridges and what struck me there is um [1:26:10] all of those bridges were done in a way that they began and they ended on what [1:26:15] was public area so that it again it was very much within the public realm the other thing is that the funding was [1:26:22] already there for the bridges and so you know which is kind of an interesting thing but there there is some material [1:26:29] up there and I do appreciate that I don't think it's all the studies that um [1:26:34] commissioner Jackson mentioned though um commissioner yeah I do just want to [1:26:40] clarify something in both of these L uh site [1:26:45] plans we the city has an easement to use this space so when we say public space [1:26:52] we have 100% access to these spaces in the way the zoning set and an easement [1:26:58] means we have access to We Own the use of that land we don't own the under Landing land but easement is a property [1:27:05] right so I want to clarify that this is public space according to the law when [1:27:10] if if these are um two developments are approved this will be public space um [1:27:17] true one thing um listening to the planning Commissioners and their dialogue and I thought um commissioner [1:27:23] Miranda made some very good points that yes um with easements you know you do have Public Access but it's not the same [1:27:30] as actual actual public space and I'm paraphrasing very Loosely but he made the point that you know he couldn't [1:27:37] protest on the space um where we have the easement that there there are differences to that and I I'm not an [1:27:44] attorney but I mean he couldn't there are certain things he could you can go cuz I was I was told that you can't um [1:27:52] if you're a candidate you cannot go and collect signatures unless you're standing on a sidewalk that is a public [1:27:57] sidewalk you can't just go stand in front of Southdale on their space that was my understanding of it yeah well our [1:28:03] attorney isn't here but an easement is a full and free use of this space which [1:28:09] would include protesting and my understanding and I haven't studied this I'm not issuing a legal opinion from the [1:28:14] dis here and our attorney isn't here but Mr morand is not an attorney and you're not an attorney but maybe we can ask our [1:28:21] City attorney if that is the case oh let me find out here what kind of time flexibility we've got um because how how [1:28:29] far along are you on the feasibility study we just we just wanted to share [1:28:34] the a breakdown of the cost estimate and some funding sources so just two or three minutes it's really more about [1:28:41] whatever you want to learn or understand well we've been learning as we go along and I think there's been a lot of questions and and more knowledge you [1:28:48] gain so go ahead um I think want to turn it back to Mr Rad or did you want to go [1:28:55] forward yeah so so maybe we'll just kind of really condense this uh so U Brad was [1:29:00] just going to just talk about the little actually why don't you just do it for one minute yeah so we put together these [1:29:06] very preliminary cost estimates for construction for um you know the top 11 [1:29:12] items uh the the bulk of the project to construct this um Bridge overpass and [1:29:19] the the Reconstruction of of um France Avenue so we've got the roadway bridge [1:29:25] in there we've got the pedestrian bridge on the west side we're going to need some retaining walls um we need some [1:29:31] utility relocations and some water main uh improvements as well uh the sidewalks [1:29:36] and the trails and and we do have some um monies uh budgeted in there for some [1:29:42] traffic control and phasing uh we feel it's it's probably more of a a two [1:29:48] season construction season project where we're doing uh work under traffic so that's going to impact the cost as well [1:29:54] and then we've also provided some of the hardscapes uh and landscaped areas um [1:30:00] that Mike alluded to in his his um presentation so um I think Mike wanted [1:30:07] to talk a little bit more about the funding sources yeah and and as Brad's talking about you're like well what what [1:30:13] does this include so I just wanted to make sure we have a diagram in here uh so the pinkish area or the reddish area [1:30:20] obviously that whole entire part of France Avenue that would have to be reconstructed uh the number two there is [1:30:27] that pedestrian bridge and the reason we didn't put that on the primary bridge is again we're trying to minimize the time [1:30:34] that you're under a structure um and that's why Also earlier when I uh Brad [1:30:40] talked about the the shortening the right turn Northbound right turn lane I [1:30:45] actually think that's probably the most important thing we're asking from the county and I want to be clear that they haven't given us a written approval to [1:30:53] do that but I feel like they're they're kind of saying you know that's from a traffic perspective it's probably the [1:30:59] the lesser of their concerns the reason that's important that means 14 ft more [1:31:05] of Parkway on the east side of the street and 14 ft less of being under the [1:31:12] roadway so it's kind of a you know a nice deal to kind of make this as close [1:31:18] to the York Avenue experience as possible um the other opportunity here [1:31:23] and the one of the reasons we're talking about this right now is when we go back 20 years to the 2005 plan which started [1:31:30] in 2004 they talk specifically about this is a great place to make a crossing [1:31:38] for all the big planning reasons and if if there were an opportunity in the future that opportunity is today it's [1:31:46] almost like unbelievable wow two sides of the street at the same time and why [1:31:51] that's important is the blue areas here is that and and when Bill was talking [1:31:57] about you know just sort of moving if you if you are interested moving along [1:32:02] trying to at least message to the developers that we are or you know if [1:32:08] you're if you want to do it that you're going to do it the developers are going to spend money in those blue areas [1:32:13] whether we do this project or not the fact that if we could get them to spend that money developing this Parkway [1:32:22] that's money well spent and that comes out of the amount of money that is in that cost estimate that just Brad just [1:32:28] talked about so that's that's where those numbers can start you know getting lower if we're working with the [1:32:35] developers and then the last piece is we believe there are a lot of funding opportunities there's the developer [1:32:41] related funding which is what I just talked about plus um you know Tiff [1:32:47] Revenue coming from these projects potentially yes there's Capital Improvement funds that's always an [1:32:53] option that you have have but the grant opportunities out there are probably greater than they've ever been because [1:32:59] of the IRA because of the infrastructure investment act there's Federal money flowing and these are just a sampling of [1:33:07] the ones that relate to taking cars offroads putting people uh connecting [1:33:13] neighborhoods connecting schools these are all grantable opportunities uh I do want to go back to [1:33:20] commissioner Richer's question because I don't think we addressed it well um so I you I think you were concerned [1:33:27] about people are coming up on Gallagher they're on the other side of the street on the Regional Trail and this is on [1:33:34] this other side that is now I'm going to forget the street number is it 70 not 76 [1:33:40] it's as Gallagher comes down the next street that where the trail is coming from um it's actually Crossing Gallagher [1:33:48] to get Park on that Park line Sorry should know that um so from Park law to [1:33:54] Gallagher you're Crossing Gallagher to get on the side that it's on you don't have to cross we could actually create [1:34:01] that trail on that side of the street and so they're not making that Crossing [1:34:06] um up here so there are ways to solve the any concerns about pedestrians [1:34:11] moving across that street um in that way so that's it uh in terms of what we were [1:34:18] going to present on the feas thank you for that um so your first comment and this might [1:34:25] be for manager nondorf were you saying with regard to potential funding sources [1:34:30] part of it could come from developers uh who are going to do work anyway is there a potential Tiff element [1:34:37] here on this if it U if it if it came to fruition sure yet uh there definitely [1:34:43] would be uh if we do do the tax increment financing uh the developer would fund the initial construction uh [1:34:51] we would per the term sheet we would agree to reimburse them for that initial work with tax increment but based on the [1:34:58] scale of these projects there's also a hefty amount of incremental property [1:35:03] taxes generated that could pay for the actual underpass itself um something [1:35:09] that we wouldn't want the city or we would we would not want the developer to build that natural Road the city would want that responsibility and we think [1:35:16] that uh tax increment could be one of the primary funding sources for that element this is for uh director Milner [1:35:25] as as we were looking at potential costs for Mr riket um it caused me to think [1:35:31] about some of the phone conversations we had with Architects on pedestrian Bridges yep and and you know you you're [1:35:39] sort of natural instinct is Mr Schroeder's concerns aside about whether people would actually use it you know no [1:35:45] matter how beautiful it is we looked at that Peace Bridge in uh Calgary and my [1:35:51] recollection is the guy said well that's a $50 million deal these days uh and [1:35:58] that if you wanted uh I forget what kind of a bridge he called it but it was it was like a minimum $12 million $15 [1:36:05] million Cost U Which is far different than what we're experiencing with the pedestrian [1:36:10] bridge across uh the crossone uh but it it caused me to think [1:36:16] that if if you thought that it would be cheaper to build a beautiful Bridge across instead of going under [1:36:24] that may not be accurate uh well if the question is the cost between an underpass and a bridge I [1:36:31] think the challenge with the bridge is is the distance just think of Rosland Park we got 500 feet you know that's [1:36:37] that's over well over a football field to do tie downs here if we had to go up higher we got one side where it's way [1:36:43] lower we got to make up nearly double that elevation so just to find the touchdown points for a bridge is a huge [1:36:49] challenge we did we did look at it with a previous study the bridge would have almost touched down at Centennial Lakes [1:36:55] Park on the east side so it's just creating big bridge structures between buildings didn't seem like the right [1:37:01] Avenue cost-wise um we never put together cost estimates for a bridge and [1:37:06] all those Landings but I think this is Mike's team the structural engineers are doing bridges that are at 24 feet are [1:37:14] pretty standard they're easy materials they're easy beams to build and and the cost I'm not concerned about these [1:37:19] compared to that Peace Bridge which was a very long structure had glass glass panels over a big river and they're [1:37:25] having some maintenance concerns we heard too so we're going to consider the maintenance and operations of anything we move forward [1:37:31] to if could I just add on to that Chad makes a good point so when our Engineers [1:37:37] looked at this bridge structure one of the goals was to have the thinnest profile you could have so we get the [1:37:42] maximum amount of clearance and the cleanest easiest Bridge structure there's no columns and that was the [1:37:48] other reason if you go to 50 ft you know to make that like we originally thought well that might be good idea because [1:37:54] that's how wide it is at Centennial Lakes uh now you face the CH the [1:37:59] possibility if you want to keep the structure thin do you have columns and now you have places for people to stand [1:38:04] behind we wanted it clean uh inside and I want to reemphasize the point there's [1:38:10] a million and a half in that cost estimate that's just for the architectural treatment of an underpass [1:38:18] that's to create light and I mean I feel that that would have to be fully lit [1:38:24] all day long right like and so the light the natural light coming in isn't the only light you have light you it's not a [1:38:31] gray concrete pass through its it's uh white or a lighter color and that [1:38:36] artwork and the lighting that's embedded all creates an environment and Michael said you have to feel like someone cared [1:38:43] when they designed it they cared when they built it and they care about it today and you're walking through [1:38:48] something that's not just a you know sort of a forgotten piece uh and that'll all be really critical in this yeah [1:38:56] thanks I'd forgotten that we had looked at that bridge issue and so it's good to get reminded that that's been looked at [1:39:02] and and well feasible I mean it's it's just has its own set of complications [1:39:08] that are much more expensive yeah and i' we've in the report in the feasibility report you saw that reference to that [1:39:14] 2008 2010 Grant the Federal grant we had at the time where we were looking at a bridge here and just thought this is not [1:39:21] a good option here and we decided to fix through three intersections and make them as safe as you can for crossing [1:39:26] France right still doesn't feel nice but it's better it's got all the safety amenities that you can do today at a [1:39:33] traffic signal uh commissioner Pierce has question or two uh thank you Mr chair um I when we first looked at this [1:39:41] you talked a lot about um promoting safety and usage and so just kind of [1:39:47] three points um just on the engineering side of it I I really like the sight [1:39:53] line of the underpass so you can see straight through and and I think that actually [1:39:59] gives us a lot of flexibility from a safety surveillance all of those [1:40:05] perspectives because you've eliminated like the A spot where somebody could be [1:40:10] around the corner right um and so I like that um I like the fact that you [1:40:16] minimized time Underground and I know the you talked a lot about if people people can see um [1:40:24] and I might have this wrong but I thought you said natural light that gives them a better sense of a [1:40:33] destination than even like artificial lighting and so having those two points [1:40:39] that are natural light um in the middle I thought that was excellent um and then [1:40:44] we didn't necessarily I don't think we talked about this point but um I [1:40:50] actually like the fact that this is kind of going back to remember R's question about public versus private I kind of [1:40:58] like the fact we did talk about this we talked about usage um that on either [1:41:04] side there at the time we were like well there could be retail on either side [1:41:09] right and so now we know that's probably not the case there's probably retail on one side there's residential on the other um but there's activity at both [1:41:18] ends and so because of that that's another thing when you see more people [1:41:23] people that gives you that sense of safety especially if you're going [1:41:29] underground and there are others even one or two other persons going through [1:41:35] with you that also promotes that sense of safety um and so I I definitely [1:41:41] appreciate it um this time around being able to uh kind of sense how that those [1:41:46] three elements came together um from an engineering perspective um and then I [1:41:52] had two question questions um and these may be both for staff I'm not sure um [1:41:58] the one that I'm not sure I'll start with first you had a slide in here that [1:42:04] talked about the uh number of residents and homes um to kind of get at I think [1:42:12] usage and so that's actually my ask is um as we move forward is there some way [1:42:20] to get a better sense of how um often [1:42:27] this would be used so that's one question uh great question we hear that [1:42:32] a lot about our sidewalks we can't really predict uh we look at usage afterwards and we measure how many [1:42:38] people are using it we know if we build the right facility the right concept like we've been talking about people are going to use it we know there's a need [1:42:44] and a want for it we've seen that on all the I would say normal sidewalks this one's above and beyond and when we look [1:42:50] at the use at Centennial Lakes Park I think we'd have very similar usage here [1:42:55] so to to add to what director Miler is saying what we have found in Minneapolis [1:43:02] is there is a latent demand for trails and Pa Pathways that's extremely [1:43:07] difficult to calculate when we create a new park and create a new Trail open a new Trail it's its usage is far higher [1:43:13] than we could have estimated using any kind of statistical analysis and because it's the latent demand it's the people [1:43:19] who would never have walked before who would have always driven and now they have a different option available to them yeah and I think what what's in my [1:43:27] head just to give you an idea um is we're not although we kind of look at [1:43:33] this as though we're creating a new pathway you're connecting it to things [1:43:38] that exist and so being creative and saying all right on Centennial Lakes [1:43:44] here's how much traffic today is is there in in the prominade and if we have [1:43:50] this connection and if we have the signage correct right there's more people that [1:43:56] would go through this because there's something on the other side that draws them those kinds of things to try to be [1:44:02] a little bit more predictive um is what I'm getting at there yeah I can add one point we're a unique uh area here [1:44:08] because we have the 9mile Creek Regional Trail they have counters in two locations in our city along the trail so [1:44:14] we can get counts of how many people are using the trail and we can just say well half of those people we got X number [1:44:20] already just using this so there you go yeah I think that's an important uh Point you're making is that this doesn't [1:44:26] just have neighborhood implications it has city-wide implications and it has Regional implications Regal yeah which [1:44:32] also plays into the funding the um in the report in the appendix I have uh [1:44:39] some photos walking along along the sidewalk on the west side and I will say [1:44:45] now this is my very non-scientific answers to your question um the the ne [1:44:51] the people in that neighborhood have learned you don't try to go walk along France Avenue to make that Crossing so [1:44:57] like right now even if you can get to this intersection That Sidewalk is about [1:45:02] as scary as a sidewalk can be cuz you are literally a couple feet from cars going 40 m an hour all you know we all [1:45:09] know the distracted driver thing what I was shocked by and I've spent a lot of [1:45:14] time out here um in the course of this feasibility study and as I walk around [1:45:20] the number of people midday you know you know in the middle of a weekday afternoon shocked at how many people are [1:45:27] crossing and trying to use this Trail and they're using it right it's just the that feeling um and even just for me and [1:45:34] I feel like I'm pretty experienced at this stuff Crossing that street at a light felt really intimidating um just [1:45:42] because of the sheer number of lanes that you're with cars that you know lined up at each lane so um it's really [1:45:49] I think there going to be a lot of people crossing here so as much as we can use your existing [1:45:57] data sources to um get some Predictive Analytics I think that would just be [1:46:02] great and I think we have the tools to be able to do that in this space and then my second question um that last [1:46:09] slide was a great slide um and we don't need to go into this now U Mr new andorf [1:46:15] but I would like to see the financial sources sooner rather than later and this is a list but um I would think [1:46:23] about um as an example using a confidence Factor right um You Gave two [1:46:31] examples of I think one was Tiff and one wasn't or they were both Tiff I wasn't [1:46:36] quite sure on that um but I would love to see with some type of confidence [1:46:42] factor with these sources um what thing is which of these are more probable than [1:46:49] others from a sourcing perspective sooner rather than later [1:46:54] thank you uh we're happy to do that yeah thank you Comm Jackson yes thank you Mr chair [1:47:00] so uh I want to just follow up on what commissioner Pierce was talking about I found a peer reviewed study that shows [1:47:08] how fast SE the average 70y old walks and how fast the average 80y old walks [1:47:13] so when we talk about latency it'd be interesting to see you know what's the population breakdown of this um traffic [1:47:20] shed I love that term or a pedestrian shed um in the in these areas and then I can [1:47:26] give you that study to show the the speed because when we calculated my husband and I went out and calculated [1:47:32] you were if you were 70 years old and you're walking at a normal pace you're 12 feet from the curb when the light turns red if you're 80 you're 24 feet [1:47:41] from the curb when the light turns red so if you're 70 or 80 years old you're not going to feel safe Crossing so [1:47:47] that's another data point um that we can take into account I just want to emphasize the neighbors have expressed [1:47:54] concerns about um safety Going Underground like that they've concerned about water so I just want to say I [1:48:01] think and I'm super comforted by the fact that this is something we've been looking at for 20 years I think it is [1:48:08] when we say it's a it's a unique opportunity I think it is a unique opportunity I'm comforted by the fact [1:48:14] that this is um something we've been considering for a long time and that there are studies out there and I'd like [1:48:20] to see it go go forward through the lens of making it as safe and as comfortable [1:48:26] as possible for people to use which I know you've been doing but I just wanted to say that I share that value so thank [1:48:32] you for all the hard work team good um commissioner U has a last word thank you [1:48:39] I am I'm so excited about this and I think it's I'm viewing this as building [1:48:45] off of Centennial Park um when I hear you know oh you know there are safety [1:48:52] concerns yes yes we need to build with that in mind but I've never felt unsafe [1:48:58] walking around Centennial I've walked under the bridges under the the passageways and I have always felt so [1:49:05] safe and so yes it's something that we need to be aware of and we need to design with that in mind but I think for [1:49:11] me this is just continuing what is already in like immeasurable asset to [1:49:18] our community and I get really excited about that since we've started talking talking about this too every time I go [1:49:25] to a new city I'm just like I see examples and I get again just like revitalized and I was um just recently [1:49:31] in Bethesda Maryland and they have it's called Bethesda Row um and it's not [1:49:37] exactly the same because they don't have like this this underpass but it's they have so much Parkway and in a lot of [1:49:43] ways it's similar to like our Southdale area but they have this um strip of [1:49:48] building and it kind of connects kind of throw fairs on the sides and I just think how people will be coming from [1:49:55] Centennial Lakes Park and they will be walking and just that connectivity that we're going to get that isn't there [1:50:01] today is phenomenal my favorite view in addition to the funding sources um is the one [1:50:08] where we look at the the population by census track because that's so important [1:50:14] like there are people living in every quadrant of this community and what I've [1:50:19] heard from people on the west side of France f is they want some type of [1:50:25] connection you know I people see that it's brought up oh we've been asking about that for years like we think that [1:50:30] that would be amazing and so it's so pivotal that we have construction going [1:50:37] on both sides and the potential opportunity to do this now and so when we and I think um chair uh hin was [1:50:45] asking for this as well but when we get this next view of the different funding sources I in particular would like to [1:50:52] understand how much of this could be done through Tiff um especially because we're in the midst of some of those [1:50:57] conversations right now and I I know that we're not trying to rush we're trying to be prompt but that [1:51:03] necessitates us thinking through this before any things are finalized from a tiff pers perspective so I think the [1:51:11] timing is right I get really excited about this um and ultimately like this [1:51:16] this is an extension of an amazing asset that we have as a community so thank you for the work that you've done and I look [1:51:22] forward to Opportunities of us as a as a commission and as a council to continue [1:51:29] talking about this because it's clear that there are some additional questions and things that we want to flesh out um but I hope that we can do that on an [1:51:36] agenda sooner rather than later um because it always feels like we're crunched for time but thank you thank [1:51:42] you thanks everybody for going over the a normal closedown time of 9:00 so we [1:51:49] really got a lot done today uh really appreciate the update and uh if no one has anything they want [1:51:56] to advise us of from a uh H commissioner comment standpoint will entertain a [1:52:01] motion to adjourn so moved motion by commissioner Jackson or second by [1:52:06] commissioner Pierce to adjourn the meeting of the H uh this 29th day of August [1:52:12] 2024 any further discussion all those in favor of adjournment say I I I oppose [1:52:18] carried We Stand adjourned [1:52:33] great comments from down [1:52:51] here for