[0:00] all right well uh Julie d kod off will call the work session to order of the [0:05] city council it is Tuesday October 15 2024 uh 5:31 p.m. and um we'll call as [0:15] we call the meeting order then we will ask our clerk Sharon Allison to to call the role as well council member agney [0:21] here council member Jackson here council member PE [0:26] here sorry ccer [Music] H here uh all right we've got two topics [0:33] tonight uh Scott's going to introduce the first topic which is our legislative platform preparation and let us know [0:41] what the what the staff is working on initially here as we begin to formulate that for the upcoming legislative [0:46] session so yeah and this this will just be quick uh Mr Mayor and members of council uh we have the the the new state [0:55] platform and State Legislative platform is uh to a stage where looking for your [1:00] input on it now so we will get that to you or get they have that already that [1:05] they have it already you have the packet okay so we're looking for your impact [1:11] your your comments your um your ideas your suggestions and any of this [1:16] material we'd like to get it by November 15th uh that gives us time to [1:22] incorporate that or at least propose to incorporate it uh before we ask you to [1:27] take a a final approval on it we're try trying to get trying to get this out and [1:33] uh ready to share with legislators just as fast as we possibly can because the [1:38] session starts a little earlier than it has in at least last year so that's all that's that's all that's about you want [1:45] to talk about the meeting we had last week with with some [1:50] Heather um at all sort of legislative preparation meeting Ed and uh yeah we [1:58] had a brief meeting with them just to share kind of what our concerns were going into the session talk a little bit [2:04] about sales tax and uh how that that particular issue seems to be where it's [2:10] kind of falling in line okay and some bonding issues that [2:16] we okay would it would it be possible to get a track changes version of the [2:22] legislative priorities kind of year over year that be great yeah I can do that [2:28] thank you I I have heard um from one resident concern about the sales tax [2:35] expanding that and I can understand the concern which is [2:41] um you know would this only benefit the two parks that are already reaping [2:47] benefits from the sales tax more clarity on that would be really helpful and [2:54] um putting this you know as a way of serving as a revenue generator by [2:59] extending it I think there's nervousness and people see a similar kind of [3:06] approach with unspent Tiff monies and so [3:11] that is what I am hearing and I totally understand that concern so I do want to [3:17] just note that fortunately none of those concerns are part of what we're going to propose okay so they'll be very specific [3:24] they have to Y and there's going to be some there's going to be some legislative change [3:30] at the legislature because they've been working on this uh committee for a couple of years now they're reaching the [3:37] end of the second year so there'll be a bill coming out of that that we need to pay attention to okay so how do you want [3:44] feedback on this you want just notes from us or yeah Sor I have quite a few however you [3:51] want to however you want to do it may I ask a question on the um [3:59] Federal legislative platform this post office [4:04] preservation okay I think it's worded the same way every year it is um and so [4:11] is there is there ever planning that happens two years later yeah yeah cuz [4:17] now it's they're within the lease that that uh luns has on that building is [4:24] getting to the point within two years where it'll be expired and there's discussion going on right now about [4:31] whether they'll whether the post office wants to stay in the general neighborhood or move those discussions [4:38] were premature very early stages the last couple times we've been in DC but now they're real [4:47] okay and back to the State Legislative platform item number five it'd be really [4:53] helpful to know with um the support for Entre [5:00] rurs what kind of um class sizes and people how many people have gone through [5:06] the Innovation lab and just be able to get an understanding [5:12] of um I guess just more data about that [5:18] okay gather that for but that's all I have for that I wonder if somebody I think Jennifer [5:25] suggested that maybe we do uh introductions we have some folks here that don't usually come to [5:33] this sir Chad M city engineer Andrew skon Transportation planner Tom Swinson [5:39] assistant director of parks natural resources Julie Risser councel carlyn Jackson councel Jim hin Council uh James [5:46] Pierce councel Kate an councel scottc manager ran Olson Public Works director [5:52] Derek Leonard sidewalk inspector sh Allison C Sean Anderson Street [5:57] supervisor David [6:03] support Jennifer [6:10] commun awesome we'll get right into it did you want to kick it off at all so we're hoping to get some feedback this [6:15] evening on sidewalk maintenance policy this came out of the last came out of a [6:20] couple things right we promised the one neighborhood this spring that we'd have this conversation uh this time some year [6:26] concerning a very specific portion of sidewalk that was just built so we'll have that as our second topic but we [6:33] wanted to First kick it off with the Citywide sidewalk maintenance policy and we had the report on a lot of information and uh four of us are going [6:40] to present various aspects of this and then seek some feedback see feedback from on both those topics so we'll just [6:47] get into the first the big picture and we talked about this big picture idea in 2018 we were here and had a conversation [6:54] at a work session in 2018 so we were able to update some numbers and provide some additional information update some [7:00] costs and and stuff so starting at the beginning here uh what's our existing conditions and we broke this down in the [7:07] three category City maintained sidewalks privately maintained sidewalks and then unmaintained and we're looking [7:13] at this from a winter perspective and then down the left hand side is what type of sidewalk so is it in a state or [7:19] County RightWay is it on an MSA route is it on an active routes to school is it on city property or other so we [7:26] highlighted a couple things that we've heard recently from Council um the city maintained we've maintained today [7:33] 70.5 miles Public Works does that today and then privately maintained there's 24 [7:39] almost 25 miles of sidewalks that are privately maintained do you have a question Carol um J's having a hard time [7:45] seeing the screen that's awesome okay want me to move my head is what you're [7:50] saying I was just leaning over here I can move back no problem um then we'll hand it [7:58] over Brian for a couple three slides to just talk about what operations Public Works does today yeah so I just wanted [8:04] to step back a little bit more uh we got we both started like within two weeks in [8:11] 2012 um and we analized kind of our snow plowing [8:17] system and um paid attention to it and about 2014 Pax fund started uh the Pax [8:24] fund uh is allowed to be uh with new sidewalks provide the funding mechanism [8:31] for the those new sidewalks in 2018 when we talked about it uh we quickly [8:37] realized that our snow plowing for our sidewalks are our worst level of service [8:43] that we we were providing um it literally at that point took us somewhere in the two-day time frame um [8:51] to get those done in 2018 or between 2014 and 2018 we did add one new guy and [8:59] uh we we got back from Centennial Lakes uh a trackless machine that allowed us [9:04] to have five different uh routes um we were able to get things done in less [9:11] than two days at that point uh and so we at the time in 2018 we're doing 62 miles [9:18] of streets or sidewalks and um we figured that it was about one route per [9:25] 11 miles that we could do and still get done in less than 2 days um now we're up to 70 just over 70 uh we [9:34] haven't had it added any new staff however we have added staff that has [9:39] allowed us to um as he mentioned um in 2021 we did a staffing analysis we were [9:47] able to hire Derek uh because the Staffing analysis indicated that we should be doing a proactive look rather [9:54] than a reactive look at our sidewalks for tripping hazards and uh that kind of [9:59] and so dererk is going to get a little bit into uh that but by ordinance we're [10:05] currently only really uh required to do um anything that was constructed on a [10:11] state with state aid money or within a County Road or a state road um except [10:18] then since then we've implemented the uh safe routes to school and so we've kind [10:24] of taken those on but that's not according to ordinance um and then there's is obviously if the council [10:31] decides to maintain a sidewalk that's not on a county state aid Road or a state aid Road uh we do that too in 2018 [10:40] we had 5.6 miles of additional outliers that didn't meet our criteria some of [10:47] which was um like Hansen Boulevard was originally a state aid Road right and [10:53] when we went through the state aid redesignation process Hansen dropped off that list but we weren't going to say [10:59] okay we're not going to maintain it anymore other things that occurred um [11:05] maybe a section of sidewalk was uh proposed and then it was constructed the [11:11] following year and we needed to go we would have literally like Beard Avenue [11:16] I'm just going to use that as an example um from an operational perspective it made no sense for us not to maintain [11:23] that one because we were going from the park to the north to 58th uh then from [11:29] 58th to 60th um the sidewalk was constructed we literally in order to get [11:36] to our next sidewalk we would have had to pull out into the road and purposely [11:41] not do it when you know we can spend just a little bit of extra time and do [11:47] it and so we communicated with those property owners that we were going to take on that maintenance responsibility [11:52] in the winter um so uh we we feel very [11:58] strongly that if if the ordinance says that we require private residents to in [12:04] to do a snow uh removal within 48 hours that we comply with that same condition [12:10] um and so kind of even when we did the Staffing analysis we kind of understood [12:15] that the Staffing analysis was going to um stay the status quo uh if there's [12:23] changes to that then we would have to change what we recommend in terms of Staffing um but so that's what I wanted [12:32] to talk about um ran mentioned the trackless machine that's our sidewalk plow machine that's what you see in the [12:37] picture here so when he says trackless that's the sidewalk yeah so there's one thing that in the country club District [12:44] most of the sidewalks were constructed 4T wide and the sidewalk machine would literally tear up every single yard as [12:51] they went through with a 4ft sidewalk so we we have never taken responsibility for those um and we would need to [13:01] consider a different piece of equipment they they do make something that's smaller now but it's not very powerful [13:08] if you can imagine when the sidewalk gets covered [13:13] with Street snow it's heavy and wet it has to be powerful it has to have the ability to blow that um otherwise it's [13:21] no real use to us and that is Brian already touched on [13:27] this the 48 Hours of City code and then the we have five machines this is again as a picture of that trackless machine [13:34] as you mentioned one one of the recommendations in the Staffing analysis was that we we we take a look at our [13:40] redesign of our route uh snow route system and uh one of the things that we [13:46] were able to do is we are stretching the amount of miles that each machine can do [13:52] because we've taken and redesigned our route system to not take any longer but [13:59] to um allow for the trucks to Wing back where the sidewalk plow goes um getting [14:06] rid of as much snow volume as they can it's not eliminating the need for the track list to go through there it still [14:13] has to go through there uh but it can go through a much quicker pace and so we [14:18] think because of those changes we made um we are getting a little bit longer than 11 miles in 2 days uh last year was [14:27] kind of hard to tell because there was only three snow events so um we're getting into a point where it's pretty [14:33] critical but um we think we have a little bit of capacity left and we're going to probably be asking in the next [14:40] year or two for an additional staff member and and a and incidentally the [14:45] machines uh in 2018 were 108,000 now they're [14:50] 250,000 same machine then in your packet this is just [14:57] a map so you can visualize where Public Works maintains it today and where they don't so the green ones are City [15:04] maintained and the orange ones you know you look at Country Club there that little orange bucket those are those narrow sidewalks that our equipment just [15:10] won't fit on that's privately maintained in the map in your packet you could maybe see the the dashed ones that are [15:16] future city proposed and future private based on today's understanding of what [15:22] we maintain and what we don't and then Derrick's going to speak a little bit about summer maintenance just to give [15:28] you an update on what we do on that absolutely um thank you and uh yeah so [15:35] just to hit it off uh really brief with the inspection program uh we take the [15:40] four quadrants of the city and we focus on one of those quadrants each year um we're on year two so we started in the [15:47] Northeast this year we're on Southeast and with this this program I I'm out [15:53] there right away in the beginning and I walk every sidewalk and I I collect all the data so we're looking for all the trip hazards we're looking for any kind [16:00] of um deteriorating sidewalk panels uh We've upgraded now what we do is we also [16:05] look for Ada um so I'm looking for slopes on sidewalks cross slopes that are too steep um then we jumped right [16:12] into doing ada8 ped ramp so when it comes to the corner of a an intersection we've not what I've noticed was a lot of [16:19] our ped ramps were were outdated and um they needed the upgrades so I also [16:24] during my inspections I um I take the the photos and and get all the slopes and the ratings and then we build a [16:31] conditional rating system with all these hazards and then uh as the next step [16:36] kind of progresses in the season we get the contractors on board and we determine which projects we're going to [16:43] we're going to go after um and that goes right away I mean the next slide will [16:48] show us I follow the city code for trip hazards so anything over a half inch is [16:54] recorded and it's saved in our data and then I can go back and I can find these exact spots so when I get the grinding [17:01] contractor set up he knows exactly where to go he knows that we're shaving [17:06] anything from a/ inch and above um up to a certain standard too because most sidewalks are only 4 in so you're not [17:13] going to shave a 4 in Rise um those are the ones that we deem need to be replaced uh we also on top of doing the [17:21] grinding like I said the Ada upgrades the pamps um I hit that one pretty hard this year we did at least 18 at the [17:28] moment with the the hopes if weather kind of works with us to get at least another six in and we're bringing um [17:35] yeah I mean it's it's just completely tearing out the corners and and putting in the new stuff up to the standards [17:43] so so so that's a pretty important Point too because [17:49] um when when the Staffing analysis pointed out that we should be proactive [17:55] rather than reactive and the way it used to work if you remember right uh people that would have a tripping Hazard that [18:01] they either tripped on or uh were concerned about they would call us we [18:06] would then go out and do an inspection we would write a letter to the homeowner we'd give them 21 days to repair it if [18:13] they didn't repair it within 21 days then we did it but we assessed them for it um those that is all still the same [18:22] practice um except when an 88 we didn't feel it was fair honestly um [18:29] to take on or or require a resident to take on Ada improvements because it's [18:35] not just a single panel right it could be it could be 15 panels because it [18:41] doesn't have the grade and it's only the the the crosswalks are only at the [18:48] intersections those um P Crossing um what are they call ped ramps yeah ped [18:56] ramps are at the corners we didn't feel it was fair um and then recently this last year um [19:03] there's a new requirement that any overlay that we do have Ada um upgraded [19:10] within that that area so we're doing that with the money that we were given [19:15] uh to move forward with the sidewalk inspection program so how how do we know I'm [19:22] assuming the map that you showed earlier covers all of this whether it's no [19:27] removal or the sidewalk repair or so right now um as the last slide mentions [19:34] the or if you go forward one more slide right now we're using the same criteria to determine winter and summer [19:41] maintenance so if it's one of those streets that Brian mentioned if it's on a County Road a state highway an MSA [19:47] route or an active route to school or adjacent to city property we're not only doing snow clearing but those are also [19:53] the sidewalks that we the city is paying to do repair of trip hazards or Ada [19:59] improvements but then anything that's not so like I think you said cont [20:06] side anything that is in Orange on this map we're not doing we don't snow clear and if there are trip hazards um those [20:13] are that work is uh the responsibility of the property owner to do or the city [20:19] does it and we assess it back to the property owner the only thing we do in the Orange is the PED ramps those [20:25] Corners where there's just a big area that has to meet standards for and stuff that we just don't want home owners to [20:31] be dealing with on these Corners so I know how I feel about that like it seems odd that we would have a [20:39] homeowner repair the sidewalk there's a tripping hands in front of their home I [20:46] don't know how I feel about that like the we don't do that if there's like a pothole in the street in front of them [20:52] no no but we do assess when we do Street reconstruction the home owner right but [20:59] not normal maintenance like overlays on a street we don't for so I I don't know [21:05] I don't have biggest thing we see and Derek you can speak to are these trip hazards that are typically tied to the [21:11] trees that the owners own and they're heaving up these panels so there's a little connection to what's happening to [21:17] the sidewalk kind to the trees that they're especially country club we had to save every tree in there we built [21:24] sidewalks up and over tree roots yeah at request of the owners the first year I started in the fall of 2022 um Country [21:31] Club is where I was and yeah we replaced 64 panels and these are all like those [21:38] trip hazards cuz I didn't have a grinding contract or anything at the moment so it was like let's get the really bad ones and start doing this and [21:45] a lot of those were with those beautiful trees that we had to protect those roots so I had Luther out there and it turns [21:50] you know from two panels to four or six because we had to make sure we kept the Ada slopes right I think that's a good a [21:58] good example so now the next step how much [22:04] are we going to add to operational challenges operational operations if we [22:09] build out our current bike ped master plan and that would move uh we would add [22:14] basically 20 miles of City maintained or public sidewalks and almost 20 miles of [22:20] privately maintained that's on the master plan today so just giving you that uh idea of the buildout where we're [22:26] headed close to 90 mies of City maintained sidewalks and 43 miles privately maintained and in your packet [22:33] you saw six options we just wanted to throw out some potential ideas these are the same ideas we presented to you in [22:39] 2018 of you know depending on your feedback we could analyze these more closely but I'll just quickly run [22:45] through them option A was continue to maintain that two-day level of service and we're now looking at that future [22:52] state if we're almost at 90 miles how many pieces of equipment does Brian and his team need um and you can see that we [22:59] would need to add almost four additional machines and operators and then we gave [23:04] you those annual expenses in today's dollar so today it's a half a million be another 400,000 if we got to that point [23:11] so hold on just we're adding 20 miles Which is less than about a a [23:19] third of what we have now but the cost doubles I I don't understand [23:24] that so that was great question so what I was rationalizing you said 11 [23:33] days or 11 miles miles days we're exceeding the mileage [23:39] today we're currently over capacity we're over capacity today we're doing 70 [23:44] we're doing 70 with five but we're not meeting two days we're not simple M I [23:50] thought we needed two more machines to to close the gap in miles and you said [23:56] that the machine was too 50 or something like that this is a 10 year replacement schedule so there's it's spread out over [24:03] 10 years for replacement and then we also have 10 years of Maintenance so there's tables in the report that [24:08] provide that but when you look at these numbers we're going question we're going [24:14] from we're going from 55 miles to 90 because these guys are doing such a good job today they're maintaining 15 more [24:21] miles when they really honestly though if we can get it done I mean this this isn't going to happen today right this [24:27] is this is a long-term vision of what it would take in order to provide a good quality level of service for our [24:33] residents and this is rough it's not going to happen today we we would do [24:39] this over a number of years as we continue to add sidewalks and if operations what I'm telling you right [24:44] now is that we're at a point where we're over um capacity and it's very difficult [24:50] to get it done in two days we're we're right at that edge but we next year will be asking for another person the per the [24:58] people that the person that we were able to get in the Staffing analysis said that they needed to get the facility [25:04] staff that was currently plowing back to doing facility only [25:10] stuff so the electricians all went from Public Works plowing to um to now doing [25:17] service requests uh day-to-day work orders and so they don't do any plowing in the winter that was able we were able [25:24] to reduce um that ability of the the electricians to plow by hiring [25:31] him and a couple uity don't and a and a utility guy and a street [25:36] guy okay so I yeah I wasn't thinking about this differently so we don't need [25:43] we just need additional staff we don't need more equipment and Mach need more [25:48] we do both is there any alternative given the [25:53] fact that last year we had three days is that right or three events [25:59] are there no Alternatives where you could bring in somebody from someplace [26:05] else if we had you know so you could build in flexibility instead of hiring a permanent staff person a really good [26:11] question council member um the thing is it has to be able to be sustainable right right one of the [26:18] things that was mentioned in the past was can we get high school kids to go out and hand shovel well that's not [26:26] going to happen we did um an analysis out at 50th in France uh district for [26:31] snow removal services that we currently provide to the 50th in France District [26:36] uh I think we assessed somewhere in the2 200 to $250,000 to that entire district for 12 [26:43] months of operation um to do a contract for just [26:49] what we do in the winter uh it was 300 was over $350,000 so so the answer is yes we can [26:57] uh it really boils down to whether or not they're going to be willing to do it at a moment's no notice and provide this [27:06] the service level that we require um and at a reasonable cost because they still have to be staffed [27:12] and manpower to to be able to respond even if they only do three um events in [27:19] the winter so I'm still confused um and and I'm only asking [27:25] about just so that I internalize the data right so for the annual expense to [27:32] do 89 miles is $918,000 at the two-day level [27:39] of service at the two-day level of service yeah there's plenty of other solutions that we have in the no I'm [27:46] with you um but my so my question I was getting to is then you've got under annual expense current is 510 and then [27:55] you plus 408 so what are you saying there does it [28:00] cost us 5 half a million now to do 89 no [28:05] it cost us half a million now to do 70 okay the 89 is a future state so we're [28:12] trying to give you if we make a decision today we also got to keep in mind the future State got it so the 89 then is [28:19] what it is today which is 510 yep plus the 408 could get us 90 at 2 Days in 20 [28:27] years this is say 20 years future State when the whole bike ped master plan is built in this is a notion that you're adding [28:33] qualifying sidewalks that we maintain current yes exactly 88 streets other [28:38] things that we might add over time based on the sidewalk plan kind of plan now if we option C I think was if Council says [28:47] maintain all 5ft sidewalks we're up to 125 miles what is that right now we've [28:53] we went from 70 we almost doubled and what's the number of the costs and you can see there it's 1 .2 million and then [28:59] if I go back to B it's basically well we're not adding anything we're just going to extend how long it takes us to [29:06] do it you know if it takes two days today we're just going to do 3.5 days or four days but keep adding miles and just [29:11] let that level of service extend we're going to get more phone calls it doesn't meet the ordinance that we require [29:18] private property so it's basically Staffing and money versus level of service that's the discussion here of [29:24] where do you want to go so we just did a few more options adding in all 5ot sidewalks whether we just add the [29:31] machines in in labor and then on the right hand side is we just let the level of service go down and now we're between [29:37] four and 5 days estimated now if we have back toback storms that's a whole different [29:42] conversation and then the last item e was let's try to do 4 foot sidewalks too well we don't even know if the equipment [29:48] can handle it we really just took a guess I italicize some of the cost we don't know if that's really what it [29:54] would go but it would go up another 10 miles if we did all the basically the seven miles in Country Club all those [30:00] four foot sidewalks and then F we just threw in there like let's stop installing new sidewalks but I don't think that's [30:06] really anything that anyone wants to do because we have requests and guidance and we really are trying to build out [30:11] the bike and ped facilities in the Dina can I ask you a question the 89 does that include the [30:18] twin Loops um think so it does not include [30:24] all of it because right now based on our current practice there's some of the twin Loops that we would not maintain so [30:30] that still needs to be a direction that we receive from the council if we want to do those twin Loops idea that that [30:37] that should be maintained by the city correct and we and that's going to be in our additional considerations here we [30:43] felt like twin loop should be a facility that we maintain it's wider provides a [30:49] multi-use facility connects Parks schools like that whole twin Loops I'll let Andrew get into some of the [30:56] additional considerations for the discussion so in addition to kind of the cost scenarios that Chad mentioned at [31:01] the end of our report we essentially boil it down to three key questions that we're looking for feedback on one is [31:07] what is the criteria that we should use to determine what our maintenance responsibility is um should we include [31:13] sidewalks that are in commercial districts that's currently not addressed by the ordinance but there are some that we maintain and some that we don't um [31:20] what qualifies as an active routes to school is something that has come up um particularly with the conquered sidewalk [31:26] um right now uh our current practice is that unless it is specifically recommended like a proposed Improvement [31:33] in the Arts plan that those are the sidewalks that we maintain um you know but should we could be considering other [31:40] sidewalks that are within that half mile radius of the school campus um should we consider Transit routes um you know our [31:47] climate action plan which was adopted a couple years ago um encourages us to promote use of Transit service doubling [31:54] our Transit service by 2030 in order to do that should we be maintaining sidewalks along Transit routes to [31:59] encourage the use of that um you know depending on what scenario what criteria [32:05] we pick we need to do additional analysis to determine what our maintenance responsibility would be um [32:10] but staff recommends that we amend what is in the ordinance to reflect what we are what council wants us to do who [32:17] maintains uh sidewalks on County Roads city does we do on a contract [32:22] basis or what no we do in terms of um [32:27] snowing snow related snow related we do sidewalks on County Roads we [32:34] maintain we do there's there's actually uh an agreement that uh we have with the [32:40] county that puts them on the hook to maintain in the summer like if we do Ada improvements that they're responsible [32:46] for 50% of the cost um but we do all the maintenance in the [32:54] winter how did that refunded how did that happen [32:59] it's uh I get I get that we would we how long you been doing it Sean how long [33:05] years how many 25 25 years there was a cost participation poliy and actually this is a discussion that many of the [33:11] engineers and are having right now because mot's doing cost participation [33:16] policies and pushing it down to the city and the counties the county did one 25 years ago pushed it down to the cities [33:22] and we've been maintaining these sidewalks using tax dollars counties we're just getting we're down at the to [33:28] be we are a transportation provider we don't provide walk Walking corridors for [33:34] people that's what they did 30 years ago um but now they now they're starting to [33:40] change their tune a little bit and so it's interesting it's a great question we actually put the sidewalks in they [33:46] did or we did it's a combination we're doing France Avenue right now because they don't have the money to do it [33:53] sometimes we have developments do it on France sometimes back in the day they probably asked some um so it's a whole [33:59] combination of who's bu and now with this recent rule that any overlay [34:04] requires ADA improvements to whatever pedestrian ways you have in a in a [34:09] County Road whenever they do a County Road Improvement they're required to do upgrades to the Ada or the [34:17] sidewalks we're meeting with County leadership talk for that new County Commissioner well I'm telling you mayor [34:23] that the city Engineers Association is meeting with County leadership not the board yet but County staff on this [34:30] discussion right now inter that's a that's quite a significant element of the cost absolutely yes and it's a pain [34:38] honestly because they're they're um they have a 247 snow coverage right so they [34:46] have multiple shifts um we don't and they must they plow the county roads [34:52] probably two or three times before we can even get it done once and then they [34:57] plow it back on top it's it's really difficult for us to keep those sidewalks [35:03] clear especially on those that don't have boulevards could we do a 24-hour shift to maintain the same number [35:11] of machines but just more people it would take more people take [35:17] more people yeah so add on more people but don't have to ask the expense of more [35:24] Machinery special contract or um yeah I think I think I when I think [35:30] about the Union contract about whether or not they we have the ability to put somebody on as a second shift I [35:37] don't don't that's that's a really good idea so that that's my question right [35:43] there I was going to ask a different version of that same [35:48] outcome I can't tell what's variable and fixed costs and so if I knew what was variable [35:58] then you start talking about La how can I impact the variable cost can I use I'm [36:04] totally baking this up are we 80% um FTE employee and 20% contractor [36:13] or whatever um I assume the machines are all capital expenditures so that's a [36:21] fixed costs uh but those kinds of um being able to understand that [36:28] would be helpful the number of machines is a variable though yep number of machines is variable time is [36:34] variable um yeah I think we put some we use all employees all employees yeah I [36:42] think we wanted to just get some guidance from the council and then we bring back is one of these more what [36:48] you're looking for or not can we go back to the B [36:54] yeah cuz there were two can we zoom in on the area under discussion or is that not possible we will do that yet that's [37:01] still I got I got map zooming in on Concord if that's what you want so that's okay and this is still the big picture I got active routs maps and I [37:08] got okay more information on that very detailed I'm also concerned about Woodale too though because you can take [37:14] it all the way from Country Club we'll talk okay there's only one little [37:19] segment and it's the steepest new hka sidewalk that's not maintained we'll get [37:24] into the details of of Concord as soon as we get the big picture discussion Wooddale though too Wooddale too so some [37:31] other considerations you know what should our Target service level be for snow clearing the ordinance right now says 24 or 20 sorry 48 Hours um in [37:40] staff's opinion it's most Equitable to establish the same level of service for our operations as we're requiring for [37:45] the residents so as Chad mentioned with the options that we've shown kind of the [37:50] main thing is that as the city's responsibility maintenance responsibility increases we either need to add more machines and staff to [37:57] maintain the same level of service or we compromise that level of service um and then another question is should our [38:03] summer and maintenance responsibilities be the same right now the streets that we are snow plowing are the same ones [38:09] that we're doing Ada improvements trip Hazard replacement on um those those [38:15] repairs are coming from combination of the of the Public Works budget and the Pax fund budget um but in theory we [38:22] could do uh summer maintenance on all sidewalks and still defer winter [38:27] maintenance on those that we you know those that are marked orange on the map [38:32] um we would just need to amend city code to reflect that and as well we would also need to communicate that change to [38:38] the adjacent property owners and update budgets and update budgets update that's a big ask to add [38:45] more we're just looking for some Fe you know we provided some options option A is what we do today we kind of think [38:51] about that's where we think is kind of the best one today but we're just want big picture we'll come to Concord in a [38:57] little bit get that one's really a detailed one Citywide big picture before we get to that detailed conversation [39:03] there's any thoughts well I feel like we need an option G um yeah what's that [39:08] which would be based on comments both from um member Pierce member U about you [39:16] know possibly what are the variables what could we do to you know maybe be a [39:21] little bit more flexible well I guess for us let's maybe start with just level of service yeah [39:28] what's our preference I think that kind of helps hone in on what options do we need to consider [39:34] from a price point do you want to change the level of service 2 days is 48 hours is what's in the code you say 4 days is [39:41] fine that'll I I can't imagine going to four days okay so two days just give me [39:48] some Grace I think the answer to that question I would love for the answer to [39:55] be the level of service should be what we can afford and so we're about to have [40:05] another conversation where I agree with [40:12] what said we shouldn't do four and a half we should stick with two but I'm [40:18] totally saying that not knowing what the impact is to the overall [40:24] budget and so that's like to me that like that's hard and this is so [40:30] complicated but it's hard to do that and so I'd love to be able to say the level [40:36] of service should be what we can afford and the the scope of what we do [40:44] should also be what we can afford but I don't know what we can [40:50] afford well then I guess like what is that question based off of yeah it's based off of we have [40:58] 133% prop hold tax that is an all inclusive of costs [41:05] and so none of this which does none of this be next [41:11] time we would run some numbers and then come back yeah we we should be clear about that any any discussion we're [41:18] having about snow we don't change snow removal protocol and practice in October [41:24] right just don't there there people have it in their head this would be a big change to to take on new [41:30] responsibilities or change routes it's a it's a really big deal from a management stand so we're talking like winter of [41:37] 2025 at the earliest and potentially even more for the global discussion but [41:42] you know we when we hone in on the area conquered and um 64th which we're [41:50] required to do anyway and um that area [41:55] that's different that's not holis IC that's more [42:00] specific I still think I would say the same thing but I I get what you're in [42:06] principle I think I will still say the same thing but I get that it doesn't impact this [42:13] current cost this current budget well how many how many uh qualifying miles of [42:21] City maintained sidewalk are we going to be adding in the next two years two years [42:27] I don't know if we have it that I don't have that number off top of my head uh over the last five years we've been [42:33] averaging less than two miles of sidewalk added that's total that includes what city maintains and what is [42:39] privately maintained per year total per year since 2018 we had 62 miles of City [42:47] maintained sidewalks and now it's 2024 6 years later we have eight more miles so [42:54] it'll be it probably would be mile mile and a half in the next two years yeah it [43:01] just keep keeps on adding it's just incremental right we keep adding and add yeah well the other thing that um we [43:08] talked about was called safe routes to school uh so we talked you know you this [43:15] maybe was something I popped in my head when Brian was talking just for confirmation purposes are we doing uh [43:22] are we maintaining the sidewalk to conquer grade school and the middle school from Valley View on conquered all [43:30] the way to those schools well maybe we should just get into that conversation I think so that's a Next Step the point I [43:38] wanted to make here was you say well should we only have sidewalks that are recommended by the Arts plan well if you [43:44] don't have a sidewalk in the Arts plan but it it probably fits within that half mile [43:50] radius here's the example I was going to speak to this but let's just do it now the green ones within this half mile [43:56] radius we maintain the orange ones we do not we don't maintain Tower we don't do 56th Street [44:01] we don't do 60th Street so there's sidewalks in the half mile radius walk [44:08] Zone that we don't maintain because they were not officially called out on the active routs to school plan so that's [44:15] the conversation we got and then if we continue with the current practice the other orange dashed [44:20] ones you know on 59th Street and 60th they would not be maintained because they weren't actually called out as a a [44:27] designated direct route to the school from that plan does the school district set the Arts plan no the Arts plan was [44:33] something that we developed in partnership with the school district back in 2014 we worked they they determined [44:40] where kids were coming from that was part of the study and they looked at where within each school they had saw [44:45] people walking and B biking the school and the plan was put together with that [44:51] so we're maintaining half of Wooddale now but not the other half well there wasn't a sidewalk before for this year [44:58] so M Mar's already brought this up and Brian's brought this they're going to go straight down and maintain that well [45:05] they're not going to leave a little piece drive out in the street like on Beard Avenue okay so they that will effectively go green yes that will go [45:13] green I just want to speak to one other topic in this area Woodland Road was [45:19] supposed to be maintained by the S by by the residents we ended up with a section [45:25] because of constraints of the RightWay Where the Sidewalk is right against the [45:30] curb and so we were doing the same thing to this resident as the county was doing to us throwing all of our street snow [45:37] onto the sidewalk we were getting complaints we were going out there to to to deal with the complaints we just [45:43] decided we're going to take on that segment of sidewalk again that is not in [45:51] the ordinance that says that but it makes sense it make it made all the sense in the world so we did that um it [45:58] was an operational decision yeah right Woodale um there's no way we're going to drive down and not do that section on [46:07] our way to do the other section right kind what you were talking about on beard exactly that's why I brought it up [46:13] because there's always these operational issues that just make common sense to do [46:18] Concord I know that that there was a lot of discussion around that but in all honesty if we go down and there's no [46:25] Bridge there what are we going to do we're going to do 64th and then we're just going to stop and turn around and go back no [46:32] we're going to go up Concord and we're going to do that good one thing I want [46:37] to bring we've been talking about safe routes to school and that is really important but it's also important to [46:44] allow flow down conquered so they can go across the bridge go through the park go [46:51] to Medical go to you know shopping do a lot of stuff and I do see people you [46:57] know who pull their little carts and all that that does actually happen not a lot of people but there are um two elderly [47:04] people who are doing that and they are going shopping and so I think looking at that stretch of conquered you know [47:10] that's important the other thing is I tried looking at schools throughout Edina to see where the green lines were [47:17] and it really seems like with if we didn't do it conquer would be kind of an [47:23] outlier if you were comparing the other schools and just how much more connected [47:29] they are and it also dawned on me that if you were going to conquer and you [47:34] lived in the country um Club area you would have green plowed streets to get [47:41] you into that neighborhood and yet you know and you should be able to have plowed cleared [47:47] sidewalk to get you into the Southdale area it's the equity regardless of the r [47:53] isn't that what you're saying right yeah it's exactly what I was saying we're going to PL the sidewalk on Concord but I wanted to [48:00] call attention to Woodland Road because Woodland Road is one that was shown as [48:06] to be privately done we've decided because of operational issues that it [48:11] should be publicly done but Tower and 58 if you remember were never included on [48:17] the sidewalk plan those residents petitioned to have the sidewalk installed but that's different that is [48:24] different that's not us saying this is where a side Sidewalk should go and we're willing to maintain it that's a [48:29] resident saying we want a sidewalk just because we like the look of a sidewalk [48:35] yep um what do you maintain it we don't maintain Tower and 58 56 56 56 excuse [48:42] me8 because that's a state 8 Street correct 58th is a state a street and at the time those sidewalks were put in [48:48] Tower in 56 we communicated to the residents that they would be maintained by [48:55] them we don't we don't and we aren't but those are the discussions that we need [49:02] you to stand behind because when we get those questions and comments how come you don't plow this when you plow [49:08] Woodland Road well Woodland's different because the constraints of the RightWay [49:14] didn't allow for a big Boulevard in that area so um we ended up with a sidewalk [49:19] right next to the road so we did it for operational reasons not necessarily for what was in the ordinance [49:28] you know what would be super helpful is just because when we get plans coming [49:33] before us with sidewalks knowing you know the details [49:38] like that so that when you know it's going in it's not going to end up being [49:43] a problem for you if there's a weird little variance or something like that we look at all the plans when when they [49:50] do a feasibility study and we work together with a recommendation that they come up with to what we do maintain and [49:56] what we don't what meets the intent of our sidewalk and path plan um what [50:02] doesn't it's in our engineering studies you'll see that for presidents on December 9th this year and Public Works [50:09] comments on it police and fire we get all those comments baked into the city sorry I was just going to say in [50:15] that in those reports you'll often see us talk about a Boulevard style sidewalk and the importance of a Boulevard for [50:21] snow clearing and pedestrian and bicycle safety and this is this is exactly why we want we try to fight so hard for [50:27] those boulevards um so maybe we do this I I was going to ask are there cities [50:34] that look at their overall map of [50:41] sidewalks and then figure out safe paths to get to certain destinations and then [50:48] only plow that and Mark those routes yeah so ultimately [50:54] reduce the miles plow yeah yeah as the other [50:59] sense yeah does I don't know um you know we're doing the cities do that or do we [51:05] do that I don't know so again right now we're right now the practice is based on [51:10] what's in the Arts plan now that doesn't take into consideration that since then we've adopted the pet and bike master [51:16] plan which is where a lot of these additional sidewalks came from and when that plan was adopted it didn't there [51:21] wasn't really discussion about what are we going to maintain what are we not going to maintain particularly around [51:26] the schools it was just expected that we were going to follow our current practice um I think you'll find in most [51:33] cities that the um the state we're similar in plowing the state RightWay [51:39] County RightWay MSA streets probably some others in the like commercial areas [51:45] um but I don't know to what extent they've done that kind of analysis like [51:50] doing a the same as I think a safe routes to school you would I don't know [51:56] sa RS to 50 FR I don't know I think we can look at it and set some parameters [52:02] feels like we'd be taking service away from people that's that's a tough discussion well if you want to get there [52:08] you got to go you have to take South ulane and Conquer to get to [52:15] KW so Brian are you recommending um operationally to do both Wooddale and [52:22] conquered is that how does that how does the driver work because I don't want to [52:27] recommend because they don't recommend but I but I understand and and we [52:33] absolutely will do it anyway because we're doing the loop we have to go down to 64th the sidewalk is on the south [52:40] side of the street on 64th um there is no resident adjacent to [52:45] that's going to do that that sidewalk so we have to do that we've always done the [52:51] path Between the Lakes Yeah by Nancy Lane we've always done that um 2026 now [52:59] we'll have a bridge to maintain that we don't today too so there's an operation there's going to be more operations to talk about up and over the ramps across [53:07] the bridge because we expect that facility to be open in the winter month so to me I think it makes sense to do [53:13] that Loop okay that's and I don't think we should take away service just because [53:18] the bridge gets constructed so we would look the council to make a motion tonight and direct us [53:24] to do that y because that's kind of outside the level of what other or [53:30] standard practice because we're not asking for a policy change what do you want from us tonight in addition to that [53:36] relative to the big p bigger picture is this just are you satisfied with this discussion that's going on I don't think [53:43] any of us can really tell you what do we like AB bcde e we just want to get your opinions on where do you think we just [53:50] want to know if you said we need to maintain every sidewalk we'd be going back want to do is go back to what James [53:55] raised ear early on and I don't I don't get this either I haven't ever gotten it and that [54:00] is uh we got this tax fund so now we we put a new sidewalk in on uh concrete we [54:07] said we're putting in a sidewalk to create better connectivity separate people from [54:12] traffic and then 10 years from now uh it's it's heaved in a couple places because of the pr runs and now we're [54:18] telling somebody who lives in the place where that tree is located that they got to fix a sidewalk to me that makes no [54:25] sense it should all be coming out of tax Fund in my opinion we shouldn't be assessing any adjacent property owners [54:31] for improvements on the sidewalk that's it's a system that serves the whole city and I think in the past we didn't have [54:38] data to even know how much that would be dereck's in year two right and now we can start to pull numbers together and [54:44] come back and say mayor to maintain all these it's going to be this price and you want to spend 75% of the packs fund [54:51] just maintaining sidewalks or do you want to build out sidewalks or is there some Middle Ground with additional [54:57] funding sources expand expand the tax fund I mean right raise the fee but I [55:04] also recall at the time when the PX fund was set up that it was very controversial and that you wanted to [55:10] make sure that you showed improvements Capital Improvements to the system not [55:16] operational expenses and so we've tried to do that and stay away from that in terms of operational but right now we're [55:24] getting to a point where we're really at place for a decade now y what's the [55:29] right balance I think we're talking I think repairing broken sidewalks is capital though I I I don't see that as [55:37] operations I see that as you know if we're asset preservation [55:44] really no different than no different than maintaining right exactly what I [55:50] think well so I personally would and I don't know to what extent we're we were [55:55] able to do this but the point that member agu made what is the variability in the [56:03] system and if there isn't any that's fine too um but I think knowing that um [56:10] because if like without that like I said I agree with member Jackson member [56:17] mag I it's hard for me to know what data I would use to [56:24] say keep it the way it is and add more sidewalks that doesn't feel like the [56:31] right answer but I don't have other data that would suggest not to at this [56:37] point so in the Transportation Commission Andrew what are you guys [56:42] doing with the aren't you sort of going through all the different bicycle plans and and consolidating them the [56:50] Transportation Commission has an initiative well there's there's two things the Transportation Commission has an initiative to review the pen and bike [56:56] master plan basically see basically report on how well have we been implementing it in the six years that [57:02] we've had it separate from that the city is going to be developing what we call a [57:07] safe and Equitable Mobility action plan or a cmap um that essentially looks at [57:13] all of our current guiding documents and tries to consolidate them down into one comprehensive plan um so that work will [57:22] include uh one of those plans is the active rout the school plan so the vment of that will include kind of [57:27] reevaluating what are the goals and recommendations of that plan and to what extent should they be updated to reflect [57:34] you know current conditions and that'll happen next year we got a $200,000 Grant to do that update and that's so I'm [57:42] sorry there's a lot of acronyms in what you said so taking all of our bike and [57:47] ped plants and consolidating them is am I correct in that or yeah some of them [57:52] and that's what the grant is for in in in two-year-old langu work kind you Gartner language please essentially [57:58] essentially it's looking at the plans that we have right now the pet and bike master plan living streets active routes [58:04] to school um and as well as taking in considerations from like the climate action plan and the comprehensive plan [58:11] and creating an updated Mobility action plan okay thank [58:18] you okay I think we got what we needed what kind of money are we [58:23] projected to get out of that active transportation funding package from the [58:29] state both directly or potentially indirectly we got the money coming to the region 25 million what comes to the [58:36] Ed direct I don't recall how much our cut of that [58:42] is well I was just that a mean active Transportation there's two buckets right there's outstate when it when you see [58:48] the the terms active Transportation solicitation that's just for outstate what the mindat med Council has done is [58:55] they taken some of that active TR the 25 million that you're talking about and they doing it as part of the regional solicitation with the Met Council that [59:02] you're part of uh with the that part of but I thought that there was separate money coming to the cities as it like a standing [59:08] appropriation for for us it was like a cdbg grant out [59:14] of I don't think so there was a little bit added for state aid we got 35,000 [59:20] for state aid I don't think that was the same thing um we can we can look into [59:25] that okay one thing is this is just a a [59:31] little side thing you Brian you talked about hard how hard just maintain sidewalks on the county roads when they [59:37] come and plow over what we've just done cover up the sidewalks again I noticed we get a little bit of that same problem [59:42] down at um Cornelia there your guys are really out there early cleaning those [59:49] Trailways those Pathways around the lake you know and then the crew comes along [59:54] in 66 and kicks snow up on the pathway that's just been cleared and then it [1:00:00] doesn't and then it sits there for days until maybe the sun melts it off so I don't know just something to keep in [1:00:05] mind operation well that's part of the reason why our sidewalk machine needs to be out more than just to get through the [1:00:14] initial system it has to go through and clean up after sometimes there's just no way around that and I I understand you [1:00:22] know that our street plow pushes but what can't go through the whole system [1:00:28] without having that happen a couple times I get it so when we think about [1:00:34] going forward let's think about whether the variability on Staffing whether the [1:00:41] having a two shift on the same machine I would do that before I would just add [1:00:47] you know everything um and and I don't know what the negotiations are like on that but if that's possible I think [1:00:52] that's a good in interim step for um increasing [1:00:57] service I'm looking at the Minnesota Department of Health and there's this document that says that additionally [1:01:04] Americans with Disability Act requires maintaining ADA Compliant access to walkways yearround which includes snow [1:01:11] and ice clearing so with our additional work enhancing Ada sidewalks could there be [1:01:18] grant money through for operational expenses yeah or for equipment doubtful [1:01:24] doubtful but we can look maybe for the construction piece of it there's [1:01:29] typically so from a practical standpoint what we got to be concerned about short term [1:01:35] is uh going add that little segment of concerete it sounds like uh and then [1:01:40] it's uh maybe a mile or two over the next couple years that we might add to the responsibilities that people have [1:01:47] now from an operational standpoint yeah and we'll keep having the discussions when we propose sidewalks to you and let [1:01:53] you know where we're adding them are they private or public on that what we do today as we also get together more [1:02:00] information that we heard from you tonight and then we'll have to look at [1:02:07] the contract because the contract specifically says that we don't H anybody outside fulltime staff we could [1:02:14] change the contract if it's I know but we might as well get [1:02:19] started for it [Music] [1:02:27] what's that 10 years 10 years no that's a good that's a good [1:02:34] point it would take it would probably shorten a life of it but we would and it's a hard job I mean that's [1:02:42] that's the other there's lots of variables in this process this how much snow we got what's the wind like did [1:02:48] people are there people parked on the street um is the equipment damaged you [1:02:53] know we keep uh we keep four or five mechanics kind of moving all winter long [1:02:58] doing repair to the fleet but the work itself is hard work right so we don't [1:03:03] want people out there for 16 hours at a crack um so there are times when the [1:03:09] machinery and the people have to be rusted even during the kind of the height I'm just thinking if there were [1:03:16] if if we were to add a I don't know what's there's no reason to add if we don't have to add both staff and [1:03:22] Equipment if we just add staff and have two shifts not someone doing a double [1:03:28] shift yeah sa absolutely training for Cil [1:03:37] M there you go you can't ride along you have to drive one because there's only [1:03:42] one single seat we got five we're not going to do that why not they don't need a CDL to [1:03:50] drive oh God okay may did you have did you have a question you don't want this [1:03:58] okay I was just confirming that the conquer was a 5 foot y it [1:04:03] is yeah so I want to see everybody out driving $150,000 piece of [1:04:09] [Music] equipment that take appreciate it thank [1:04:18] you all right right