[0:00] okay sorry guys I have a work call this is the January 24th 2024 Planning [0:06] Commission work session staff pres is Addison Lewis Carrie Teague Liz Olen we [0:12] have commissioner felt Smith Miranda da and [0:18] Borstein uh Nate anger with ESG Architects Patrick Brahma with [0:27] Enclave Ben ler lifestyle communities Luke ster [0:32] Enclave Michael Scher consultant of the city Michael Fisher consultant of the city LP Bill nondorf the city's economic [0:40] development manager St browned neighbors for [0:47] affable all right excellent we'll just get right into it I have a very brief [0:52] PowerPoint this is a project that you're generally and commissioner Bennett is [0:59] here chair Ben um so I'm going to just briefly go [1:04] through um overview of the project then I'm going to turn it over to Bill mu andorf and Mike fiser and Michael [1:12] schroer um to talk about kind of how we've gotten here and then we'll turn it over to the applicant to make their [1:18] presentation and then we can have our typical um sketch plan [1:24] discussion so this is the old Macy's F or not old the Macy's furniture site on [1:30] France Avenue guided in the comprehensive plan for Community Activity Center so it's in our most [1:37] densely anticipated Development Area in the city in between France and York it's [1:43] currently Zone PCD 3 planned commercial District the site's about 8 acres in [1:48] size there's a look at the existing building with the large surface parking lot last year they did go through a [1:55] sketch plan um the the sketch Plan before you this evening is generally the same all the uses are the same um the [2:03] plan is still to divide the site into four Parcels part of the reason we're back is [2:10] when the city council considered the sketch plan they asked or this was actually came from the HRA um how can we [2:17] make a connection between this project and across France the 7200 uh site so that's when um we [2:25] brought on um the two Michaels to help us with that either going over or going [2:31] under so as a result of doing that the The Proposal here on this site has [2:37] shifted a little bit so a lot of the details are the same um dividing the [2:43] site into four the request for a rezoning would [2:49] still be applicable we would be going to a PUD um as far as I understand we're [2:56] still at 10% within the project for the um housing element a lot of the setbacks [3:02] are generally the same they would be asking for flexibility um from the north south side um there's also you may [3:09] recall we had some discussion about the setback to the R1 property across France [3:15] there we may need some flexibility there as well as well as floor area [3:20] ratio um the density itself it's 110 units per acre if we just look at the [3:26] two residential sites on the east side which is within the comprehensive plan range of 90 to 150 [3:33] units I mentioned the affordable housing and the building height that's that separation um that's the closest R1 [3:41] property that the Green Arrow is pointing to and roughly where the the south building would be located and that [3:48] one is over nine stories tall so that's where that um height regulation comes in [3:54] so with that I'm going to turn it over to Mr NE andorf to talk about where we've come in regards to the uh either a [4:01] bridge over France or potentially an underpass so get [4:08] away so I have a couple slides here as well so thanks for having us tonight and and uh going through this in a work [4:14] session type of format uh let car pull this one up so um [4:21] as you probably know when the plan after the Planning Commission does your role looking at the site plans and Zoning [4:28] approvals and zoning uh recommendations if the project moves forward I get involved sometimes with financing to [4:35] make sure it can get built um and these days that's a lot easier to say than it [4:40] is to do um but I noticed at some point uh last year as we were completing um a [4:47] review of the um 7250 site on the west side of France and [4:53] then The Enclave group came in talking about the site across the street I recall that in the long term we we've [5:00] always had conversations about how difficult it is to cross France Avenue um and so we can jump to the next we [5:08] started um having some early conversations about how to um how to and [5:16] whether to even consider trying to link these two sites they're different owners they're different project types they're [5:22] on slightly different schedules but in the big picture they're probably going to be redeveloped within a year or two [5:28] of each other and so it's a it's really a once in a-lifetime opportunity to do something [5:34] big and bold if we choose to do it so um when the when tip financing is involved [5:40] that's where the H comes in and so as we were talking about tax increment financing for the 7250 France site we [5:48] started laying the framework of is this something you want to do um and the HRA [5:53] wasn't intrigued that maybe we want to look into this so we've been looking into it no final recommendations [6:00] no final answers um but some some suggestions and jump to the [6:07] next and so early on um I wor uh I worked with worked with Mike Fischer at [6:13] lhb um who brought brought on Michael schroer to help with some of this as well and we started looking at what was [6:20] out there in the in the neighborhood in the metro area around the country we reached out and put some um uh [6:28] information requests up on the together a Dina website to get some ideas actually got a ton of good ideas on [6:33] there and we started compiling what we called a scrapbook of good ideas I don't know if any of those are [6:39] actually buildable or doable but they sure were good ideas um uh Patrick at [6:46] enclave and The Architects at ESG were kind enough to indulge us a little bit and listen to some of our good ideas or [6:52] what we thought were good ideas and we filter them to what might actually work so um at this point um the staff Rec my [7:01] staff recommendation is if we do do something like this try to see if we can do an underpass that goes under France [7:08] Avenue as the first choice now that might not be possible so the second choice would be to go over like a [7:14] traditional Bridge um so right now we're kind of exploring both but the first [7:19] thing we wanted to do is is um share some examples and I'll turn it over to Mike fiser to do that um but as I [7:27] mentioned we looked in our own backyard we looked at at communities in the area we looked at some sites around the world [7:33] and um and so we'll we'll skip all the all the history and the sausage making [7:38] it's all up on the on the city website if you want to see it um but I'll turn it over to Michael and we'll show you where we are today and where we think we [7:45] can go sounds good thanks am I going to need [7:51] the little if you need that is that my pointer very good all [7:57] right um so when Bill called and and asked us to [8:02] study this and and he mentioned we looked at many many ideas and some of [8:07] them will make this seem really tame and that's good right you look at the full gamut what we ultimately came back to [8:14] and and when I when I talk about ideas you know was like we started with do you do a tunnel under France Avenue I think [8:20] none of us want a tunnel under France Avenue for many reasons um but we came back around to the idea that wait a [8:26] minute I think we have a solution right here it's called senten Lakes how did Centennial Lakes is crossing streets all [8:32] over the place and how do they do it they just do it with healthy Bridges and space and allow enough light to come in [8:39] where you feel safe walking under these roadways so can you just go to the next slide um spend a lot of time studying [8:46] those you know how big are they how wide how tall what do you need to do you know how wide is the road that they're going [8:52] under and it's seem like something and this is really what the HRA kind of gravitated to as like their number one [8:58] choice and when I talk about this it's really the idea of let's stop talking about a tunnel let's start talking about [9:04] the extension of Centennial Lakes like let's bring a park under France Avenue so if you go to the next slide um and [9:11] that's why where it comes back to why we're talking about it here tonight so in this idea uh is that you essentially [9:19] take at that time is a 60ft wide uh extension of the prominade right through [9:25] the heart of the developments uh and then you could Bridge so it has to start dropping down [9:31] back here to get under a first bridge and then the idea was to actually split [9:36] France a or France Avenue apart a little bit create creating that median space in the middle and bridging under uh to the [9:44] west side and really expand that Parkway not only across France Avenue but beyond [9:50] right this is a a bigger picture infrastructure in the future in the city [9:55] um but as you can imagine so I'm just go to the next slide and just Michael Illustrated uh just very simply what [10:02] that might feel like now imagine of course that lower piece going under France Avenue is very green it's not [10:09] just this might look a little concrete it's not really that uh it's Centennial Lakes you know that feeling going under [10:16] France Avenue and then the next one just shows um from the West Side looking [10:21] toward under France to this development that you'll be talking about here tonight again not a tunnel it's going [10:27] under a bridge so that's what the HRA wanted us to further study which we'll [10:33] all need to do now if you can go to the next slide um actually go back three slides [10:39] Carrie I'm just going to test your agility here so now I'm going to go back to the convers first of all the [10:46] developers on both sides of the streets have been very collaborative about this it's been a good process and not that [10:51] we've had tons of meetings but when we've met you know we're kind of brainstorming at this level um so [10:57] imagine now uh first of all the development timeline is based on you [11:02] know financer you know people financing your project all the stuff that goes into development is very different [11:08] timeline than a public realm Improvement so what the discussion really became is [11:14] how do you make this happen on a public timeline when you got private developer needs as well and if you can imagine [11:21] having that Parkway dropping through your development go back to that diagram that was there you go um and then you [11:29] know it's going to take let's say it takes several years to work with the county cuz you know the count is going to have some say in their Road right uh [11:37] and we've talked to them but but these things all will take a certain amount of time meanwhile the development has to [11:43] happen on both sides so there was a concern that if you're dropping this down through the site and then for some [11:50] reason we can't make that bridge happen uh it really compromises that [11:57] development in a big way um so we started now you can go ahead three slides so we started saying well what if [12:03] there was a way to actually um still allow some movement through the site but [12:09] maybe keep that at grade and the actual dropping of the prominade happens around [12:15] the south side and so we started uh riffing on that a little bit and collaborating and that's where it landed [12:23] um so I think we go to one more slide um [12:29] and and then we also talked about hey what if that doesn't work we may still have to bridge over and they're press [12:34] again this whole thing was about grabbing ideas from other places this just happens to be in Denver but this [12:40] idea that you do a very sculptural kind of uh cool bridge over the top so that's [12:46] where we sit today is the last time we met with the development team uh we were really trying to figure out if you're [12:53] splitting your site into four pieces and we still need to get a park around on their property to make that happen um [13:00] how much do they need you know to to to make the development work on those four developable pieces and at the end of [13:08] that meeting um you know there was that discussion about coming back for them to come back to the Planning Commission and [13:14] to the council with a sketch plan review and and we actually even talked about keep it really diagrammatic because the [13:22] whole point is does it make sense from a concept not because there's a lot of design to be done and a lot more [13:29] collaboration um to make the public realm and the private development really come together so that's just the context [13:36] and we have nothing to do with the actual development project so good luck a great discussion we're here for [13:42] questions if you if you have any questions [13:59] Okay jump members of the Planning Commission again Patrick brma with Enclave uh main uh contact on the [14:06] development side of the projects excited to be here with you again this evening I know last time we connected would have [14:11] been early 23 um thanks to Mike and Carrie for the introductions I have a brief [14:17] presentation I just wanted to Breeze through just to kind of give a big picture update of where we were and where we are now um a lot of the slides [14:24] are not relevant so I'll probably just pass through them Carrie and I'll let you know as we go through because they were already covered but glad to be here [14:29] with you this evening um and really excited to get some additional feedback um so uh we went through the [14:36] original plan you can skip this I what I want to do is highlight some of the changes that occurred from the original [14:42] plan where we are today this is the site plan that was included in your packet this evening again very di diagrammatic [14:49] very simple on purpose because of some of these big Global changes and attempts to make this site uh work with uh [14:58] pedestrian connection in the future we wanted to just dial in what those public uh areas would be versus what are the [15:04] building pads that allowable for our private side development um so Nate uh [15:09] with um ESG is going to talk in detail about kind of like where we're at with our planning as a model that he can go [15:16] through and give a little bit more uh detail on each individual block so you can get a 3D view of that we just [15:22] finished that model up today my comments are going to be very high level and then I'll turn it over to Nate's next slide [15:27] please so from the time next side please uh we originally proposed the project to [15:32] now we did receive and I just want to acknowledge some comments so you know that we're thinking about these things we received a comment to expand the [15:38] trail on the south side of the site to a larger capacity we've also received comments from the fire department about [15:44] uh fire AIS around the back of the site we just want everybody to know that we've heard those comments we're going to make changes to our plan uh to [15:51] accommodate that we didn't make really detailed changes at this point in time because we need to get the feedback on [15:56] the public realm and the public connection but uh uh request heard and [16:02] received and we're going to respond to that and anticipate to next slide please um Mike had mentioned that one of the [16:08] solutions that uh we're considering and is being recommended is making sure that there's a 50ft uh Corridor along the [16:15] south side of our site um that allows for another extension of the prominade [16:21] West to France and that extension uh could be partially all that grade it could partially start to go down as it [16:27] gets past our midpoint Point Road that you see in the middle of the site but the big thing is is that we we increased [16:33] that area we pushed our buildings further north we increased the setbacks uh across the property you'll notice the [16:39] size of some of our building pads shifted or shrunk in certain scenarios so that was one of the big moves we made [16:45] on the west side it was previously 15 fet now we're at 50 on the east side we had previously had a 35 foot foot [16:52] setback now we're at 50 next slide please on the east side of the site when we originally came in we were at 15t [16:58] setback from the prominade we at some midpoint in our process with the city concept plan process we increased that [17:05] to I believe just over 20 feet now we're at 35 ft uh again responding to some of [17:10] the comments that we heard to keep the development further back from the prominade allow more room for the promonade to breathe and creativity to [17:17] expand the prominade uh next slide please northeast corner of our site uh [17:23] and I'm not going to name the plan correctly but Mr new andorf probably or Carrie can mention there's a vision [17:29] document uh out there longterm to add rooms to the prominade uh as development [17:35] occurs and so on our site we're identifying the northeast corner as an extra room for the prominade so there [17:41] can be some sort of intentional activation of a public space in that area in our original proposal we did [17:46] have that space shown as a public spa or as a green space but the way that it was shown it felt and looked a lot more like [17:53] a private exclusive space and we want to identify and respond that we acknowledge that it needs to be public and we intend [17:59] for it to look and feel like and be a public space available like an expansion of the prominade next slide please um [18:07] the location of this is not uh probably as relevant In This Moment uh but we did [18:12] receive a request to have some sort of commercial retail or restaurant ideally [18:18] restaurant user um as close to the prominade is possible [18:24] ideally on the prominade we uh so that means effectively putting in a first for [18:29] uh pad uh for a restaurant site on one of the two apartment buildings um we [18:35] haven't identified where that final location should be but we want to respond and say that we are going to do [18:40] that we intend to have a pad somewhere on the two East Side sites for a restaurant um looking for any [18:46] suggestions or feedback uh that might help us help guide that decision but we do intend to uh uh include that in our [18:53] project moving forward next slide please um our Center Plaza was previously very [18:58] um it was very uh hardscaped previously it was it looked like a lot of Paving um the city uh in anecdotally we received a [19:05] lot of comments and preference for it to look and feel more like the Centennial L prominade they have more green feel like [19:11] a little bit more natural less hard edges what you're seeing right here is definitely not a design for the record [19:16] that's so that is not a design but we're just trying to show you from a super high level that we want to add green to [19:23] this where we can add curves where we can there's a lot of variables involved that will dictate how that can be done [19:30] because we want it to be done successfully um so that's a whole discussion itself but we just want to acknowledge we received that comment [19:36] we're going to work with the city staff and designers to uh respond with that to the best of our ability next slide [19:42] please uh that 50 foot uh setback that we showed that wraps are on the south [19:47] side of the site and then wraps North or excuse me on the west side of the site up France it does make a really hard 90° [19:53] angle on the southwest corner of our property and that was something identified in the dialogue with uh [19:59] Bill and Mike Mike and Michael and one of the things that we did to respond to that was made sure that there was a [20:05] first floor open patio on the southwest corner of that building so as [20:10] pedestrians are making that turn and going around that corner it doesn't from a visual and from a aesthetic [20:16] perspective doesn't feel so cramped and crammed and also obviously there's Activation so we would intend that patio [20:22] to be used like a restaurant user something of that nature [20:30] the Carrie had alluded to some height comments that we received in proximity to the nearest uh single family [20:37] neighborhood uh we did pull down the height of the Northwest building on this project to right now we're we're between [20:44] 8 Nine Stories um this is currently where we're at I think we originally at like 10 or 11 stories so we're trying to [20:50] do our best to respond to that and pull down that building to the best of our ability the next slide is just a [20:55] different version of seeing what a 900 foot setback looks like to the nearby [21:00] single family neighborhood that's the area that would trigger this uh setback uh requirement and discussion so the [21:07] Northwest building um touches I believe about five homes and the Southwest building which is the taller building [21:14] would touch two homes is is the way that we see it on GIS slide please [21:29] Mike and uh Bill did a great job of talking about the the discussion of the connection and the moves that we made in [21:36] the project to achieve that really high level our takeaway from the development side is the big thing that we were [21:41] trying to achieve is making sure that our development would allow flexibility for the city to choose different [21:47] alternatives for their parallel path process for this larger public infrastructure investment and that's one [21:52] of the things that we did and I'll just walk through really high level a few of the big picture things that we did just [21:57] so it's um maybe a different way of saying the same thing next slide please um previously the the plazas that went [22:05] through these two properties and across France they were staggered and there was right angles so if you were going to do [22:11] some sort of underpass or really any public infrastructure project if you're a pedestrian walking through that [22:16] Improvement obviously you don't you want to see where you're going you want to see the end of where you're going you want to feel safe so that was one of the [22:22] big major moves we tried to make on this is make sure that all the plazas are aligned in a ways if you're a pedestrian [22:28] if feel safer and there's a straight line that you're going versus any potential perception of confusion or [22:34] safety issues so that was one of the major changes you saw the shift of the buildings in our our site to make that [22:39] alignment the second thing um and secondary benefit of making that shift of the Plaza on our side of the site [22:45] further north it creates a bigger distance from Gallagher up to The Pedestrian Crossing because that larger [22:52] distance it's going to allow the city more time to ramp and grade uh if we did go below France uh more distance to make [22:59] that grade change uh versus before it was a shorter distance so then you might have to incorporate staircases or [23:05] elevators um so one big goal was to make sure there was an opportunity for ramping last item that I mentioned was [23:11] that 50 foot uh alternative path we touched that so beating that to death um as far as big picture where we are at we [23:18] are from a development team perspective um looking to submit formal land use applications PUD plat tip application um [23:27] so this feedback to us is crucial to help us just understand where we're at with the project what you guys are thinking allow you to provide some uh [23:35] responses to updated information so looking forward to the next steps appreciate your feedback and Nate uh has [23:41] a 3D model that uh if it's okay with you chair and to just freeze through and [23:47] give updates on the for good evening everybody um glad to be [23:54] back um Commissioners City staff director Teague thanks thank you for your time Patrick thanks for the [24:00] presentation um just going to give this a second to fire up uh we thought um in [24:07] the nature of uh a working session we'd bring a model which we can kind of spin [24:12] around and look at and potentially if we need to manipulate some of this to kind [24:18] of understand how we um might come to some sort of agreement or resolution on [24:23] this uh Patrick has talked a lot about and Bill and Mike did a lot of talking about [24:29] uh the forces at work um in getting things to where they are now so what [24:35] this model represents is basically kind of an envelope study this is not a [24:40] design this is a a diagram in three dimensions which helps us understand [24:46] given those kind of constraints and all the things that we talked about in the public realm um pieces that we're trying [24:52] to address and Achieve what can we actually build here and how do we address the other side of equation which [24:59] is kind of the development requirements um so I'm going to walk through just really really quickly kind [25:06] of how the buildings the typologies are kind of laying out how they're responding to those constraints we [25:12] talked about and then we can open it up for a discussion if you'd like about um [25:18] the appropriateness of this and uh any sort of things you'd like to see more or potential changes that we can look at um [25:27] so we'll start start maybe on the east side of the site and diagrammatically we're laying in the prominade here so [25:33] this should help Orient everybody in terms of where we're located um we have [25:39] the two residential buildings that Patrick was talking about um both of these projects are kind of a mid to [25:46] lowrise type of typology um we have um a seven story building on this side of the [25:55] prominade or what we're calling our prominade I guess and a six story um component on this side of the prominade [26:02] um both of these buildings have two stories of parking below grade and we can certainly look at that so we're [26:08] handling the majority of our parking for both of these projects in kind of like a super plate of parking that um extends [26:15] underneath and so what that'll do is it'll eliminate the need for you know the majority of atg grade parking we [26:21] will of course um as we're kind of indicating here have some sort of component of at grade pull off and [26:27] convenience parking but the majority of Resident parking should be taken care of below grade we do of course have um some [26:36] uh level at least at the first level and I'll see if I can achieve this uh a [26:43] wrapped sort of um liner parking here so yep there we go so the first floor will [26:51] look kind of like this uh where we'll have kind of a wrapped liner portion of [26:56] parking that will be to support a potential retail usage at the grade level um we have units lining both the [27:02] North and the South in this building with some sort of Entry amenity area there um we anticipate that the parking [27:10] at this level would probably be public parking it's also move in move out parking it's going to support the retail [27:16] in this corner we've talked a lot about this retail and we would love to have a further discussion with you as being [27:22] kind of an activity driver for that Confluence at the prominade there um we've used even though we know it is a [27:29] far inferior city um The Long Fellow Grill at Minneapolis if you know kind of as it comes over on Marshall Avenue um [27:36] by the um the parkway there has a similar thing where we have multimodal [27:41] Confluence of uses occurring at the location and you end up getting just as many people um addressing that retail [27:49] and restaurant usage from that kind of pedestrian bike connectivity as you do from people driving so so we see the [27:56] opportunity at this corner specifically being very strong um but that doesn't mean I don't think that we wouldn't [28:03] entertain other locations for retail use there so just something for your [28:09] consideration um on the North building we have something similar so I'll just [28:14] get out of there and maybe we'll go over [28:21] here so we also have kind of a wrapped portion of parking here so um the [28:28] ttention behind both these buildings is to get active uses along this kind of green pedestrian prominade area so in [28:35] both cases we're wrapping the active side of the parking with um stop [28:42] shaking um uh we're wrapping it with active use so we have um walkup units [28:49] potentially here uh what we really like is the idea that people could be moving through here and it feels like a [28:54] residential neighborhood right we want to get eyes on the street we want to have walk up there we also have a similar thing happening along the [29:01] prominade side here as well so really the intention of anything facing either portions of prominade is to have active [29:08] use walk up and to provide Breathing Room uh as Patrick said um the design [29:13] experience guidelines call for a 15t setback before we begin kind of development we're showing 35 ft here uh [29:21] we just feel it's important to create some breathing room along there and create that activity uh We've also for both of these [29:28] buildings we've um taken kind of the amenity spaces uh I [29:34] think traditional um uh traditional knowledge or design uh would tell us that probably [29:41] the amenity space for this building would want to face South um the challenge with doing this is that you [29:46] know now that's North facing we're going to be in Shadow but our team feels it's really really important to create this [29:53] section along the active use here we really want to break down that building and create kind of a sight section along [30:00] here that feels as minimally imposing as possible which is why we're kind of considering it this way both of these um [30:07] kind of second level spaces would be active uh pools and activation along [30:12] there um it's important when we create these sort of corridors for you to be able to see up above the first level if [30:19] possible so that's what we've done on the residential level here [30:24] um so that's kind of the residential component and then as we move further um [30:30] to the West uh Patrick also talked about how we've realigned um our promon not [30:36] extension in the in the initial piece that we talked with you about probably a year ago or so it was a nice strong axis [30:43] and we really really like that we like the kind of the strength of the four block pattern we like this too and it's [30:48] just one of those things that kind of came about because of all the different forces operating on it you can see the [30:53] very strong movement of this building to the north and in doing so that required [30:58] the realignment and it did provide us a benefit that I don't think initially we understood which is more about that kind [31:06] of connection through the site and that site Corridor that we're going to be able to achieve now because these things [31:11] step as we move um from east to west um so that's kind of what's driving this we [31:17] anticipate this sort of Confluence of spaces to be a very kind of pedestrian [31:23] oriented space the term werf gets drastically overused but when I say it you know what I'm talking about so I [31:29] will use that term um this will be kind of a pedestrian first environment kind [31:35] of a secondary car entry um for what it's worth our entries to both of our [31:41] parkings are going to occur uh further um to the South here so we won't have a [31:46] lot of traffic that needs to cut straight through North we're either accessing the parking from the south [31:52] side or from the north side but we don't anticipate a lot of cut through traffic moving from south to North of the site [31:59] so that should leave the ability to do some sort of tabled intersection a pedestrian first realm here that allows [32:06] this uh prominade to extend across the street then we get over onto the more [32:12] commercial side of the building it is again intentional to kind of Step Up the massing as we get closer to France [32:17] provide the buildings with a little bit more um prominence along France to strengthen that Corridor that we've [32:24] discussed with other projects um on the northwest Corner we're anticipating [32:29] about 100,000 ft of office or mixed use there with Associated parking uh to [32:35] support that so in order to achieve that we have kind of a parking Podium here [32:41] with a component of parking Below in all cases we're doing about two stories below grade because that's the maximum [32:46] we can get the water table in this area is about 30 ft below grade but it may come up it may come down so 30 ft is [32:54] kind of the safe spot um for underground parking so that's that's what we're doing on all these sites um and then we [33:00] have a a component of parking up above and a Podium however we are bringing down um some active use along this side [33:09] which would be a Lobby amenity area we are showing in this particular case 20 [33:14] ft uh which is what uh the design guidelines calls for um in other cases [33:20] like in the residential we're showing about 16 ft of active use just to provide a variety of different heights [33:27] and make it more appropriate to the use office is a little bit more Grand scale so 20 ft feels good residential is a [33:33] little bit smaller scale so 16 feels good additionally we're providing at [33:38] least at this point kind of um an idea of some active retail we think if you're [33:45] going to do retail in a space like this um along the prominade again makes sense we're really fronting that we think it's [33:51] really important to have as much AC activation along here as we can this could be a restaurant it could be a [33:57] coffee shop there's a variety of different retailers that probably do very well there and the benefit to them [34:03] is that um because of the way that this is set up we actually have um some [34:09] parking um that again is directly adjacent um to the retail use so you can [34:14] see here um we got parking on this first floor we're also providing kind of a Breezeway through this so if you imagine [34:21] kind of the parking deck at the Galleria just a couple blocks up not saying the whole thing is up on stilts but there's [34:27] the ability to kind of walk through this we feel like that ability to kind of come through there is going to make this [34:33] feel more pedestrian activated it'll make this retail more easy to um get at [34:38] so that's this side here and this is um it waffles between eight and N stories [34:44] of development just depending on what type of use we expect there on the other side of the street we're looking at a [34:49] more intensive mixed use project capping out at 11 stories um so this one also [34:56] has a component of parking that happens underneath U with some at grade parking which I'll show [35:03] here I make anybody sick motion sick or anything okay please let me know if I am this can have that effect [35:11] sometimes all right so there we go so at grade this is kind [35:18] of the atg grade plan so again lined for the most part uh parking here in the [35:24] areas that wouldn't be lined we would do some sort of architectural screen we have a smaller parking Podium on this [35:29] one so I think that's more achievable we have a variety of uses that we could see here so on this northeast corner we're [35:37] anticipating some sort of uh retail use that could be a really ideal location for like a coffee shop or something to [35:43] Anchor that corner right off of that um sort of Confluence uh of The Pedestrian [35:49] prominade um we are showing kind of an active retail use closer to France here [35:55] could it rotate down and be on the South Side along prominent I think that's an opportunity that's certainly something we could entertain it just happened with [36:03] way the parking laid out it kind of worked that way but I think that's malleable um all this parking at grade [36:09] would be dedicated to the retail and then probably um anybody that's coming [36:15] to visit the residential or the office up above so these two blocks below are [36:20] some sort of indication of the lobby and um kind of Entry components of the stack [36:26] up above so we need an office lobby that's what you're seeing in blue does it exist exactly there we don't know yet [36:33] but we want something at grade and then the residential Lobby might want to land [36:38] somewhere here we like the idea that addresses this new prominade connection we're making residential lobbies tend to [36:45] be more active more often 24 hours a day versus an office lobby which might be 9 [36:50] to 5 so that's just kind of the modality behind that thinking um and then it was [36:55] really important in this particular use to and a core because this is a little bit more complicated use we have a [37:00] vertically integrated mix use which potentially has two levels of [37:06] circulation perhaps they're different um uh elevator components we don't know yet [37:12] we haven't gotten into design but it's important for us to bookmark that out so up above that first level which right [37:18] now we're considering at 16 ft um so that whole Podium would be 16 ft tall we [37:24] have three levels of parking that we're showing right now um and that's serviced by kind of a speed ramp then up above [37:31] that we're showing at least conceptually two stories of office and then up up [37:37] above that we're showing residential um all these buildings and I [37:42] have a diagram that can show this if you're interested in discussing it are addressing the design experience [37:48] guidelines I can show you the setbacks and everything I just I don't want to bore you with that if conversation's more important um so we've been very [37:55] cognizant of that as we're shaping these sort of envelope diagrams and certainly after this conversation as we get into [38:02] more detailed design we'll further articulate these projects um but at the [38:08] risk of being maybe too illustrative that's kind of the general layout of this so with that we'd love to have kind [38:15] of open dialogue discussion jokes if you got them [38:31] so so I wasn't here for the first meeting I missed that meeting unfortunately [38:36] um so from a very high level perspective um this is a great project I mean we're [38:42] you know especially compared to the site that's there today you know we're there's a lot that's good here so you [38:48] know you guys are following the design guidelines a lot better than a lot of recent projects have um so you know [38:55] splitting their property into you know a small grid like that um having lots of [39:01] frontages where even if there's parking there's there's something there to activate and everything [39:08] um but it just feels like an enormous I mean when you zoom up and down through the parking and everything it just feels [39:13] like an enormous amount of parking and it feels like we're not really making any progress I mean we're following the [39:20] kind of the written method of the guidelines but it's like we're not [39:25] really reducing car usage here I me this this is a place to drive your car you know and you're on a bike way and you're [39:33] on you know now the Eline is not going to go this far south on France but it's [39:38] going to go pretty close and so it feels like I lost opportunity to just build these giant podiums and [39:44] parking you know with with stuff on top so that that part really bothers me a [39:52] lot [Music] um now I think I read that you guys are [39:58] reducing the number of of housing units total here is that from the previous plan yeah from previous plan um Patrick [40:05] you'd have to speak to that on the I'm sorry I just said you'd speak to that and then I'm going to talk about it um on the on the east side of the site [40:11] we're we're kind of budget neutral so we I think originally said 440 units this [40:17] plan is about 400 in change so we're I think a wash there I think maybe where [40:22] it deviate is in terms of how the East West buildings are addressing it [40:28] okay there's one thing Mick brought up in his comments um was that you know on [40:33] the Southeast corner where you're saying there should be a restaurant whatever I think that's a great place for a restaurant where the Confluence of the [40:39] of the two uh trails are but um you know [40:44] in the previous plan that was you know more of a plaza and I think a restaurant [40:50] you know fronting a plaza would it would you know it's weird because you cut off the the northeast corner and there's [40:57] like nothing there but there you're going to be going around the corner you know potentially as a cyclist or [41:02] pedestrian or whatever and you've got this giant wall there yeah and I think the previous design really made a lot [41:08] more sense and I know this is very schematic or whatever but I think I agree with Mick that that really made a [41:14] lot of sense that it didn't seem like the imposing building on the corner um [41:19] it just made building feel less massive you know and then as a plaza you know people could eat outside for the [41:25] restaurant and whatever I mean it just seemed like really good um design from the previous previous time now I know I [41:31] think you're having to scoot things a little together and everything so I'm sure that's harder now most people [41:37] probably wouldn't agree with me but I think I'm fine with the height and everything in fact 11 stories on France [41:43] is fine I think it's absurd that one or three houses can determine the height of a building 900 feet away so I'd be okay [41:51] with like giving you guys more height on on on France now I'm not saying the city council is going to do that but to me [41:58] that you know a more inviting place along the the uh prominade is worth [42:04] having slightly taller space on especially you're 50 feet from the street it's super wide there I just [42:10] don't see the problem with height there so anyway that's kind of my preliminary thoughts and then in terms of the whole [42:16] bike tunnel bridge thing or whatever I know that's not your perveance or whatever but it's like if you have to [42:23] build a tunnel or a bridge I think you've already failed because it means that you're you're [42:30] keeping France as a car focused uh Speedway forever you know so [42:37] if you have to put the bikes and the pedestrians underneath or over it um then you're basically keeping a highway [42:43] there and again with our climate action plan if we're trying to reduce vehicle miles traveled then having a bridge or a [42:50] tunnel doesn't make sense the other thing is that as a cyclist and a pedestrian myself and being on many of [42:55] these places there's one in Minneapolis that goes over what is it it's on the east side of Minneapolis that that giant [43:02] Bridge the bridge yeah it's beautiful brige it's beautiful but people don't take it because I mean if people are [43:08] cycling for recreation they take it because it's like pretty and they can see the city and everything but if you want to get across the street you're not [43:14] going to take this giant bridge and and go up and over so you know it's it's [43:19] just like I think that's a huge problem but also by having you know a bridge [43:25] again you're forcing France into the the size that it is today not allowing you [43:32] know transit to go down there or a dedicated bus way um it really again [43:38] keeps the status quo and keeps it as a car focused place and if we you know [43:44] presumably we're building places like this that are close together that are more urban so that people don't have to [43:50] drive anywhere so it's it I'm just very conflicted about this whole thing parts [43:55] of it are really really wonderful I don't care about the height of the density it's fine but to do that and [44:01] then to just make it car Focus kind of seems to defeat the purpose so great comments commissioner Miranda [44:08] um just one comment I I really appreciate I think we really appreciate the comment about um the retail here and [44:14] I think that's definitely something that we could investigate I don't know that there's any [44:19] driver or why we couldn't cut in there and maybe push over so I I I think that [44:24] is a very good comment especially because as a team when we were working together we kind of identified the necessity for [44:31] these buildings to acques maybe to those view corridors and that is one thing I forgot to mention uh that we were very [44:38] intentional about over here which is really cutting that corner back and stepping back and giving that back as [44:44] whether it's an outdoor um seating for a restaurant or something but really allowing the building to not have a hard [44:51] Edge as you turn the corner especially here right as we're going to be very intentional about turning there [44:57] this feels like a very similar sort of scenario so it's a very well taken [45:07] comment I guess I could go oh I was just G to wait I was just going to build [45:12] because as soon as we do light rail or something down the middle of France we're going to cover up the green space [45:19] in the middle oh yeah right I mean that's I was like that's the only way to expand France if we need to add anything [45:26] so to do a light rail by the middle of PL no but who knows I mean in 100 years [45:33] when we have 20% more people we might have to do something um I'll wait for my [45:39] other I'll let you go y quiny here [45:45] um I just want to touch on the bridge component first [45:51] uh I not an architect but I like what I saw in terms of of the different ideas [45:58] right there's the idea of going up and over and there's the idea of kind of Dipping down and coming back [46:04] up um just one key point you know people are people would be very lazy you know [46:12] so if you could not have to hike up something they' avoid it they would just [46:18] want to get easy pathway so going under might be the easier thing to do um and [46:25] then trying to mirror what what has been done in the Centennial Lakes area seems [46:32] like a nice extension of Centennial then I try to think about that then I try to think about when I [46:38] look at France Avenue I look down France right to see all the buildings come together that's where I see all the [46:44] glass buildings very light kind of comes in onto France um and it's a very pretty View [46:50] and so then I'm kind of conflicted with do I want to have a nice building structure on France that I could see [46:56] that's nice and pretty and whatever you build on France would be the template that you will [47:03] probably have to build lower down on France something similar because uh I think it's 78th Street or [47:10] 76th Street somewhere further down you probably want to replicate something to cross over France again so whatever we [47:17] decide as setting the foundation here would most likely be what we would do [47:23] again further down on France Avenue those like um you know I'm sure [47:30] engineering stuff that you guys would already think about but things like water flooding snow how how would that be manage [47:37] maintenance um the cost of Maintenance um if you go down versus going up and [47:44] the idea of just looking down France was just my thoughts there on the uh on the bridge concept now future [47:52] development you know with a light rail or some kind of thing go down from PR in [47:57] the future maybe right but um the dip down idea would probably lend itself [48:03] more to designing something like that than building a bridge over that's just one idea to think about [48:10] you know not just 10 years out but 20 years out what does that even look like with regards to the [48:17] building um I would have held off until Commissioners get to do around here but [48:25] uh very very similar comments regarding the edges I think we [48:30] talked about that the last time um this is a very statement location and so everyone's going to see [48:38] this the massing on France and the [48:43] height um I think would be fine but how you screen that parking would be important I was just doing some [48:50] research about what kind of Vine or something green you could put on outside I would change colors in the season [48:57] I think I saw um Virginia creeper vine might be a nice thing to screen on [49:05] France it changes color yes yes well no it's green in the summer time it it [49:13] changes colors to to red and as the seasons change and the trees on France [49:18] change that can change too so it's like a living kind of space right that might be more palatable to folks um because I [49:25] know there's constraints with how how deep you could go from the water table and uh if you have to maintain parking [49:32] amounts you have to go up so how do you how do we screen that in the best way [49:38] possible um questions just on the design I know this is so early but I was trying to [49:44] figure out what's a internal balcony and I was trying to think through what does that even mean like is it like a core in [49:50] the center that you would look down into or how does that it's a great it's a great question and and sometimes um the [49:57] way words go together can be like challenging to mean different things so um what we are thinking at least on the [50:03] commercial side is that in office when you have an internal balcony it means it's not projected past the building [50:09] like you would see on a residential property so as you drive around you see all these Residential Properties with a [50:14] full projection or a half projection we really think about those as external balconies and it's more typical in [50:21] office to kind of carve away from the the mass of the building and have that [50:27] internal uh such that maybe you have part portion of the office that project over the top to provide you with some [50:32] screening um it's just not as typical to kind of project balconies out so that's what we meant by internal [50:41] balcony yeah so of the other buildings in that area is like caned right so out [50:47] exactly yeah and I don't think that would be so good uh hanging out on [50:52] France there um affordable housing is is important I [50:58] think you guys are looking at that 10% about 44 [51:04] units I think that's important um The Pedestrian oriented [51:12] design like previous you know like commissioner uh Miranda said the there [51:19] was like a nice uh internal Courtyard that I think you stripped out a little [51:25] bit and this view um I think that would be nice yep right in the center here I [51:32] thought that was really nice um I think we we really enjoyed that too in the last presentation we taught having that [51:38] internal culture was a good idea I apologize commissioner are you referring to the kind of like that Central Cross [51:45] Point yeah yeah yep I thought that was pretty cool [51:51] um of course from a green perspective I just rattle off a couple things things [51:56] you know um I'm sure uh things like energy efficient [52:02] appliances atck systems you know we we seriously want to think about how do we [52:08] set the standards and continue to build on making Edina uh Green City so new [52:15] development that comes in like we tear on this Macy's building we want to put something back put something better that's in alignment with our climate [52:22] initiatives right um and that would be huge so the HCK systems solar wind turbine you know doesn't have [52:30] to have both but if there's a way that you could say you know what I'll I'll [52:35] give up this and I'll put this something just to again lean more into that um [52:42] environmental governance that that we're trying to do um garbage pickup now a lot [52:48] of retail they don't have mandatory recycling I don't think in the city um I [52:55] could be wrong but but if you have retail and you encourage folks to [53:01] recycle I think that's a step in right direction too I think some of that comes down too to making convenient access to [53:09] those sort of facilities and in a a a particular um project where we have [53:14] mixed use that's going to be easier for us to achieve because we will be doing it already to suit the residential or [53:20] the office so at that point the facilities are available uh I think it's just setting you standard operating [53:27] procedure for those users all right I know EV parking spots [53:36] or EV ready spots um would probably be considered once you get fot down into [53:41] the plants and I know we talked about that I think too last time so I know that's going to be in the future um [53:48] construction materials I know you didn't really touch on that too much um but along those same guidelines [53:54] right like low vfc paint yeah um try to use as much recycled materials if you can and I I don't know [54:02] everything about materials um for building that size yeah [54:08] and and um what that cost would look like but anything that we could do to help with um again the library I think [54:17] that we're trying to build would have a lot of green materials in it if I'm not mistaken I think we've been asking about [54:24] that and so new buildings we also want ask think about green and recyclable [54:29] materials um Landscaping drought resistant plants [54:35] um you will have a tree design I'm sure how we manage the green spaces would be [54:42] a thing in the future um but selecting and picking the right type of shrubs trees these kind of [54:49] things would also help Advance the whole green idea um [54:57] now that top Corner the playground idea right uh I was trying to think about that what [55:05] to do there and I know a playground would be a good [55:12] idea I'm thinking a mom with her in a stroller she's coming from The Container [55:18] Store she's going up to go home and she's going to stop there and Kids come [55:24] out and play or do you put put trees there and it's like more a shaded bench area I'm not sure [55:31] um I don't know I don't know I'll leave that to the other Commissioners to andg [55:37] has some ideas um but that's a unique spot and who owns that does the property [55:44] owners own that does the city own it I just don't understand how that's a private public space I think we're open to that if it [55:51] if it if the city wants it to be a publicly owned space we're open to that so just car it out and make it up and [55:57] any City would manage that that location we would just need uh some sort of easement around the back side of the [56:03] building for you know utility or access in general maintenance that type of thing but outside of an easement yes [56:09] we're open to that tin on that one some more [56:18] um yep talked about that I might ask some more questions later but overall you know uh [56:27] it's a this is a really critical spot uh no one wants to live in that or see that bunker anymore is the Macy's [56:33] building um and so as as we think about building this up having it be [56:39] environmentally friendly rounding the corners make it a statement [56:45] location um these are some of the key things that I'll be looking at screening [56:50] the parking really well um so it doesn't feel like imposing car structure um um [56:57] would be also important but overall uh you know I [57:02] think it's very similar to the last time just a few changes I don't have super strong thoughts yet on orientation of [57:08] the building because now you have those two Courtyards facing each other on the [57:13] inside um which is not a bad idea uh so I don't have a strong opinion [57:19] yet yet U but I did think the last design was a bit more friendly yeah so [57:26] that's it now it well thank you there's always a lot [57:33] of work that you put into this and I appreciate the level of very welcome [57:39] detail um can you tell me if all of that France and the south side is dropped so [57:47] there is um a park or green space below street [57:53] level how that affects your building buildings cuz right now you had like two levels underground and so many above [58:00] ground so so your buildings stay the same and all that grade drops or does [58:06] your retail how does that affect your buildings that's that's a great question I think that's like the huge opportunity [58:13] with all this discussion is to understand the types of spaces that we could create and kind of the dynamic [58:19] quality that now moving down um allows us to access um obviously right now we [58:25] have parking blow grade cuz you'll never see it but as we begin to carve down we'll start to expose some of that so [58:31] does that begin to imply some of these amenity spaces in these projects could go down there is there AC of use that [58:38] can make its way down there we think that there's benefit for both the users and the public if that occurs um I think [58:46] it just you know at through our collaboration with the city as we move forward we're going to have to talk about a lot of that but I think the [58:52] thing that we all agree on is that activating that edge is incred important for both the public and and the private [58:59] it benefits the development but it also benefits the city so it's a very [59:04] important question I think and and you asked you know you were saying you weren't sure about the massing yet I think we're going to learn a lot more [59:10] about this project as we get into detailed design and then we'll be able to have more dialogue about like [59:17] transparency and what that means because when you see these Big Blocks it always just looks so solid it's very hard to [59:23] kind of move past that so we're excited to see that as well [59:30] um yeah because I mean if your height is you know eight stories from France Avenue but then it's [59:37] actually going to be nine stories from the new grade which is lower um and it and right is there five levels of [59:44] parking exposed or four levels or six or whatever it is I mean there's another [59:49] that's another complexity level of parking exposed um and and um [59:56] so I go to that Blick Art Materials a lot and I drove the site this weekend [1:00:03] and there is um uh Freight entrance on the south side [1:00:09] and Freight entrance on the North side right um so how does like how does [1:00:17] dropping like all of France Avenue and all of the Southside affect those kind [1:00:23] of freight entrances and entrance that that that parking area [1:00:30] is parked and it's a little crazy is very much crazy yeah yeah so when I [1:00:36] see the road there coincide with the trail that makes [1:00:42] me nervous [1:00:47] um you know so and and what I do appreciate kind of getting the pedestrians and the cyclists away from [1:00:54] the parking but then there's those connections so have has anybody talked to the developer that has Pinstripes in [1:01:04] The Container Store and all of that because we have attempted to uh I don't [1:01:09] know if Bill was able to get a hold or not but I we've reached out I haven't received a response yet but they [1:01:15] do um for the record they have an easement over the current current road alignment that's there today they have [1:01:21] an easement over Okay so until we're able to get any movement from them we're going to have to make sure that the [1:01:27] design respects their current property rights but we will we are trying to [1:01:32] reach out to them to see if we can team up with them and work with them on any potential changes yeah because it would [1:01:38] be nice to get that the bicycle away from the entry because I think that when you go down to that parking you can only [1:01:44] go into the Centennial parking ramp you can't come from the so then how do [1:01:50] those um businesses get right they're obviously have to reroute the and [1:01:56] repaint the whole there's a lot of complexity there for sure I know all all of our team the city development [1:02:04] architecture we've it all kind of comes to a head right there right like we [1:02:09] we've got to figure that out we've got to get that right there there is absolutely a way to do that and often [1:02:15] times those really complicated um challenges provide the best most intricate Solutions so I know the whole [1:02:22] team's excited that looking looking at that um the prop adjacent property owners are going to be very important to [1:02:28] South and also to the north we have a similar issue to the north too yeah because the grade is up that [1:02:35] whole parking level is up yep we've got that and then we also have potential fire access we have we didn't talk about [1:02:41] that at all but Patrick mentioned we talked to the fire department and you know we have a narrow [1:02:46] swath of land there that we have to get a fire truck through so um you know we do need to engage even further with [1:02:54] adjacent properties this solve those complicated issues yeah yeah because how [1:02:59] do you I think those complicated issues are going to take longer than your building so how do you design your [1:03:08] building you know while the county and two other landlords are we're [1:03:16] hiring you got some ideas okay so ump three um that was okay [1:03:23] four um oh you had asked about that location of retail and I and I want to kind of a ask you that was brought up by [1:03:32] the city council the having retell in one of the [1:03:37] I I think we just felt like it it was a good use on that corner yeah yeah and loose I mean I don't I can't remember [1:03:43] exactly but it had been Loosely brought up several times through a process like can you put something against the [1:03:48] promade can you put a restaurant pad against the prominade some way somehow and where that occurs it was never [1:03:53] really clear it was just kind of a loose comment okay so it's open discussion at this point in time there is a [1:03:59] rationalization for the just transparency on the southwest side moving it to the southwest side for the [1:04:05] sake of the success of that user so they have visibility from France as well but we want to get your feedback on that and [1:04:13] respond to it with our next design FP I think you would be closer to you know what [1:04:19] your um um clientele would be interested in um I mean it does seem nice right on [1:04:28] on the lake right there um but boy I was like well why why don't you put it you [1:04:34] know along your internal prominade um so it's between the yeah or even on the [1:04:40] back side of it oh oh in here yeah the if you want to right good yeah I don't I [1:04:48] don't have any that's why I was interested in your thoughts on it because there's [1:04:53] residential on the North there's residential on the East um there's the lake on the south [1:04:59] and then there's your activation in the center the East West Moon Earth [1:05:06] too yeah I I think we'd be open to any of that um there's not a whole lot of [1:05:12] magic in this kind of like architectural donut that we're dealing with this so this stuff can kind of matriculate around there could also be an argument [1:05:19] that it would be very strong on this northeast corner too um kind of right at [1:05:24] that we're going to create a new node on the prominade as we connect into it so that's going to have a brand new set of [1:05:31] activity um so you know we're we're still Gathering feedback I guess exactly [1:05:37] and I don't I don't have any preferences I'm just okay um asking questions and I don't [1:05:44] really have any you know I'm sure there's you guys can decide on the city [1:05:50] council about the uh Park um um area too so and but you were [1:05:58] overp parked by by like 400 parking spots aren't you were you still you were [1:06:04] overp parked last I rewatched the April sure meeting because I wasn't there and [1:06:11] um I appreciated commissioner Olen and [1:06:17] um two other people right were everybody was concerned about the pedestrians across there commissioner olon CU she [1:06:23] walks across there oh and and and Strauss because he rides his bike across [1:06:28] there there were worried about The Pedestrian connection too so but at that time I look through it and you were over [1:06:35] you were overp parked from The Code by about 400 yeah from the code that I I'm [1:06:41] sure I mean U commissioner Miranda had a great question about that too and I think you know this is the um [1:06:48] challenging position we often find ourselves in is on one side we have I think what we'd all like to do which is [1:06:53] create um a pedestrian City and then the other side we have what the market is [1:06:59] demanding um and so for instance in kind of commercial office development really what we need is 4 per thousand that's [1:07:05] the number you hear a lot of times from Brokers can we do um with less potentially I mean those are [1:07:11] conversations we'll have internally but that's where the biggest disparity happens between the code um on the [1:07:17] residential side we're sitting at 1.75 per du which is what the city the kind [1:07:24] of the upper end of the what what is um kind of requested there I think it really and and commissioner Miranda [1:07:30] rightly pointed this out really where you start getting the majority of the parking is in these kind of intensive [1:07:36] office uses that are requiring four and five per thousand which admittedly are Suburban metrics right that's what we're [1:07:42] kind of contending with and what we're trying to create is an urban environment so who knows if that can be reconciled [1:07:49] but that's just kind of the sausage being made so to speak on on that yeah [1:07:55] and I appreciate your um sharing that and and kind of running [1:08:02] your own numbers I mean because so many cities are kind of giving up any parking requirements whatsoever and just and [1:08:08] just saying okay tell us what you need right um and there is right the desire [1:08:14] to go to um other forms and and then right right to the south of [1:08:21] that there is people circling for looking for a parking space and then just south of [1:08:28] that there are parking spaces to be had in Centennial so neither one is perfect [1:08:34] that's right but you you are going to be the third you know and then the fourth and then there's more there's more space [1:08:41] available on the North side so yeah I one of the things I know other cities have been really effective in doing is [1:08:48] um with these mixed use properties uh let's take the Southwest Building for instance which potentially doesn't have [1:08:54] contiguous users um you have residents that aren't necessarily there at the same time as office users at the same time as retail [1:09:01] users so there is kind of a discussion at least in those mixed use scenarios to start talking about parking sharing and [1:09:08] so I think there's a lot of opportunity for discussion there and figuring out can we begin reducing those I can't [1:09:15] comment on it I just know that that's been successful when we talk about pure typologies like pure office that becomes [1:09:21] a little bit more challenging especially if it's kind of a monolithic sort of use [1:09:27] um but I also wonder just out loud if there's not the ability to have some [1:09:32] sort of parking agreement with Centennial Lakes because you know that it has to be I'm just asking out loud [1:09:38] and you can yell at me later no I yeah it's uh important topic uh first off [1:09:45] high level working on projects across the Twin Cities and then even other uh Metro areas Across the Nation it's very [1:09:54] helpful as a developer to not be working against it's more common for us to get [1:09:59] forced to do more parking than we want like we're in an opposite scenario here [1:10:04] um so like just that's really helpful uh first off and so this is not a normal dialogue uh so we appreciate the city's [1:10:11] contous of this we we end up frankly wasting a lot of money and space and time and materials and effort for unused [1:10:17] parking yeah um right now this is what the market demands I mean I can you know if I if we went back to the investors [1:10:23] and and Bank appraisal and try to get this project a Finish Line we didn't meet the metrics [1:10:29] that are quote unquote required by the end users we'd have a really hard time making the project move forward so [1:10:34] that's that's the rub that we're dealing with on the development side um but it's an important topic we're willing to have [1:10:40] the conversation one thing I've heard discussed in the past is well maybe you build the space now but is there a plan [1:10:46] to convert it if it's not needed later and I think that's something we should strongly consider on this project and [1:10:51] we're willing to have that conversation and I think that's hopefully a reasonable Middle Ground um the end [1:10:57] users drive this very much so on that Northwest building right now we're assuming uh potentially medical office [1:11:04] that's a really intense 5 to one use if we end up being able you know if it [1:11:09] switches to something else the ratio potentially can come down so there's just a lot of loose items right now but [1:11:15] the next flip of design I'd like to we'll try to address that and on the point of conversion too I just like to [1:11:21] point this out because that is something we've T talked we've talked with this city about it on 7 1 I think it's really [1:11:26] really important it's a great idea um the relief that I think we need as a development and design team is that 10ft [1:11:33] floor to floor for parking doesn't work for office so what inherently that means is that we're building a parking ramp [1:11:39] that is a 14ft floor to floor parking ramp with the idea that you can come around and convert it which will work [1:11:46] and especially in what we're showing in the Northwest that's actually ideal because the column grid is great the [1:11:51] glass line would be great but it does mean that our height gets higher the cost is marginal I don't think the cost [1:11:57] is as big a deal but like as you're thinking about it as a city if that's something you want development teams to [1:12:04] explore I think understanding that that request begins to incrementally increase [1:12:09] height because your parking stories or where you can squeeze that height out you can if you're going to convert [1:12:16] it well and I am open to that discussion I mean just I'm one commission member but I am I am open to it cuz right you [1:12:25] have have other Financial constraints that push that and um I'd rather kind of [1:12:31] relieve that and see things appropriately parked then over [1:12:36] parked okay I think that's it for me can I just ask a quick question just on top of that um I I like that conversation um [1:12:46] I guess this question is for director teue what could the City just off the top of your head I you could talk about [1:12:53] it later I know we have parking as a work item type thing in the future what could the city do to help with [1:13:00] developers and with shared parking could we step in in any kind of way or is this [1:13:05] really just developers with each other just trying to figure it out when you say shared parking you mean like [1:13:10] District parking that the city would provide or just shared between users [1:13:16] yeah yeah it it's not uncommon um really throughout the city Centennial Lakes is [1:13:24] way over Park part partially because of the the park use you can park anywhere in the Centennial Lakes development and [1:13:30] use the park um so really all of that is a shared Arrangement as well so pretty [1:13:38] common for a shared Arrangement but they would have to work it out with another property owner if they're so we yeah so [1:13:45] it's up to them to figure it out uh nothing that we could do to help encourage it or yeah you know we've [1:13:51] reduced our parking standards um partially why they're so overp parked [1:13:58] but that is our new standards to try to encourage less parking but it's that it's the Dilemma [1:14:05] that to get financing they need to provide the parking so [1:14:16] stuff have comments or can I go you got yeah go for it well this is really interesting [1:14:23] thanks for thanks for presenting it and helps us be able to see [1:14:30] something a square on a piece of paper well that wasn't this one I [1:14:36] know I think you said it was a zero out of [Laughter] 10 I was SK one to 10 this was a zero [1:14:44] always remember that anyway but no thanks for like letting us react to something um I was looking at it and I [1:14:52] was thinking like what does this thing remind me of cuz it was reminding me of something i' sort of the the concept was [1:14:57] reminding me of something I'd seen before and I remembered um what it was it was has anybody been to Cayman [1:15:04] Islands ever nobody [1:15:10] in I went on a bargain qualifier there we got a good [1:15:18] deal and wanted to get out of the cold and landed on her came you know dropped [1:15:25] there for a day and had to figure out what to do and there was this place called um kamana Bay which maybe you [1:15:31] guys can Google um not you don't have to do you can look at it right now but I it it was this it was this setup um I don't [1:15:39] know if the pictures are perfect come on up Bay yeah hopefully this is safe for work oh [1:15:46] I don't have any Internet so there you go that's fine okay but it was this it was a it was a four it was a four [1:15:53] component situation that there was a very busy and [1:16:02] undesirable freeway Bas or you know Highway exactly where France is and um [1:16:09] and then it it moved through there was there was a walk a walkway through the middle and then it went off to the sides [1:16:15] in the middle and it spilled into like a much softer landscape and um and this [1:16:23] place was really nice and the rest of Cayman Islands weren't um but it did it was doing really well and I think one of [1:16:30] the reasons why was because again I'm not suggesting you actually just maybe just think about it [1:16:36] but almost counterintuitively maybe they they focused they had four blocks like [1:16:43] this and maybe a fifth off the side but but they focused int like continuous [1:16:50] retail on The Pedestrian middle area like this whole thing you had there you go L got a [1:16:58] picture yeah that's exactly right um you know it's just kind of gives you a sense [1:17:03] of the aesthetic and and they they didn't have it broken [1:17:09] up like you like there were shops continuously down the middle of that thing from the bad freeway all the way [1:17:15] to the soft landing spot which in that case is like kind of a landscaped green [1:17:21] area with a water feature I'm kind of like the Centennial par area that you [1:17:26] spill into and then and then in the middle part the thing that went that way [1:17:31] that was also kind of a street but all of the streets were kind of paved and they weren't they didn't feel like a [1:17:37] road um a little bit different than that which like is more like feels more like a drive lane or something and so it had [1:17:43] kind of that walkway Vibe going vertically and horizontally and then um [1:17:51] and the retail was concentrated not only on this direction but this direction and [1:17:56] it was concentrated on being continuous and touching into the corners and um [1:18:01] instead of like being off on one corner and then off on another like it was it was in the middle which may seem counter [1:18:08] intutive like well let's put some on France or something and but but by concentrating it on the middle created [1:18:14] activity um that attracted people and then the parking was set um the parking [1:18:20] was was set to the extent it was set anywhere more on the back like not in the middle like off and and it was like [1:18:28] kind of hidden a little bit from that commercial feel anyway this is a super popular place um and it has the exact [1:18:35] same layout as this and the reason I bring it up is like I don't know I think if maybe it's just something worth thinking about like if you want look at [1:18:42] the plans and then and think like oh and then the last thing was the retail it [1:18:47] didn't really go out to like the France of this or the free the highway and and came out because like literally no one [1:18:53] no one wanted to sit by that yeah it just it was loud it was annoying it wasn't safe um people would rather be [1:19:00] tucked into something quieter and and the closer they could get to the Green Space the better and so then in the [1:19:07] analogous space like here where it would spill into the C whatever that is what do you call the Centennial Parks part [1:19:13] there was like a little like sitting area that was carved out for people to take their coffee or their gelato or [1:19:19] their whatever they got from a restaurant and sit like in this kind of like nicely landscaped palm tree area [1:19:25] and just hang out and there was like a little playground there and um it was really popular like people came to this [1:19:31] place from all over they came in Islands because it was destination and it was like a destination shopping shopping [1:19:37] center plus residential and commercial space those are just kind of like that would if you wanted to do tweak it a [1:19:43] little bit to kind of capture that make it into like a destination activity center and maybe you could like not have [1:19:50] the parking AB buding that middle driveway have the middle Drive way be more of like a just even does [1:19:57] make it feel more like a walkway even though you could drive across it um like we've done with some other projects here [1:20:03] and try to figure out a way to fit retail in the corners and then continuously through and then like have [1:20:08] it just extend even halfway down the middle doesn't have to go the but so I don't know that those are kind of my [1:20:15] scre look at the pictures and see what you guys think oh lastly sorry then I'm done talking to the someone's GNA go [1:20:21] since I mentioned right um Celebrity Cruises is pretty good [1:20:27] deal and you you don't deal with all the young [1:20:33] people yeah terrible but they had a because this driveway this freeway was [1:20:39] so unpleasant kind of like like commissioner Miranda says Fran say they really put intentional thought into [1:20:45] creating there was a walkway over it um but it was nicely landscaped it kind of [1:20:51] like spilled into this through a really landscape kind of buffered area into this development and people loved it [1:20:58] like people were hanging there were a couple places to sit in it um I was just like really invited people to travel to [1:21:03] this destination from around the regional area and and spend a day there so like that that's what I think I can [1:21:09] offer on this those are great comments and and I I really appreciate U I think [1:21:15] we really appreciate the idea of um this kind of central spy being something that is not a car focused thing I mean maybe [1:21:23] we should have shown it different here but I think that's where our head's at um of all places I had a similar [1:21:29] experience in Houston um the like car driving city capital of the world right [1:21:35] but they have a place called City Center maybe some of you been to Houston I don't know but um they actually do this [1:21:41] very well because they know they have to deal with cars um but all these interior little streets um you know they have set [1:21:48] up similar list 60t wide between the buildings but it's all these pavers and it's like curb and it's like when you [1:21:56] drive through there there are definitely like entries to parking garages and stuff but there's also retailers there [1:22:02] and people are just crisscrossing all over the place there's not dedicated kind of crosswalks and in some ways us [1:22:09] even identifying one Central spot maybe means that we've already lost the show right like maybe the whole thing needs [1:22:15] to be kind of walkable if we start putting retail along there then I think it's uh accessible for that so it's it's [1:22:23] a really great comment it's a a really great image to think about I think when we come back next time we'll have design [1:22:29] that begins to maybe hint at that um we're also of course going to need to talk about the amount of retail we can [1:22:37] truly do um that that's the other component right for something like that to be successful you've got to be able [1:22:43] to do that much and we'll need to talk about that parking is a huge more retail parking is the highest retail retail is [1:22:50] the highest density for parking yeah like 6 per thousand all right don't we have that [1:22:57] circulator we have a circulator down there the uh I think we have a cruise [1:23:04] port so boats and no one drives if you're asking about Transit [1:23:11] like I had to pay a guy in a van to drive me to this place like [1:23:17] cashely going to go but yeah I don't know commissioner I have to ask I would have [1:23:25] 10 this is for him not me is it a zero no [1:23:31] perfect I don't know anything else more than anything I think you guys are trying to make it great and your [1:23:37] receptive feedback and that's the thing that that matters the most they did come back two weeks later [1:23:43] with a much better plan you did I think he made it I think he made it did I think he made it really good yeah think [1:23:51] you inspired them to to do it [1:23:58] well I guess that's a tough act to follow I don't have any experiences from the Cayman Islands to share with anybody [1:24:04] unfortunately so that I already feel like I'm like coming up we're coming down we're coming down slope now from [1:24:09] The Commons because I can't add that um but I can add at least some individual perspective as somebody that runs around [1:24:17] the city quite a bit in bikes around the city quite a bit um and I guess a high level approach because I don't want to [1:24:22] get into the details that we've already beat to death on but um well first of all great I think we've made a lot of [1:24:28] good positive improvements from the last time we saw it um so thank you for taking a lot that initial feedback we [1:24:34] gave and incorporating it here I think this is a big step in the right direction um as far as like the overall [1:24:40] concept I think this a great step in the right direction for Adina and what we need to balance out really that question [1:24:48] of parking car Centric versus pedestrian um I don't take it's quite of a Hardline [1:24:53] approach with the park so much like if this was an EV versus IC debate I'd be more a hybrid type of guy [1:25:01] um right I you know I push back on the assertion that eliminating the option to [1:25:06] drive somewhere is going to Simply get people out of their cars right you have to give them the option of doing something else but at the same time this [1:25:12] reminds me of the discussion that we had when we were talking about car charging ports and eliminating parking [1:25:18] spots um if you had electric charging available at the time I made a point that really we're putting the C before [1:25:25] the horse a little bit because our public transportation system is certainly not where we want it to be um [1:25:30] and really doesn't allow a lot of other options like certainly I can guess that pretty much nobody drove their rode [1:25:36] their bike here or took the bus here today right so we all drove um it's [1:25:42] winter it rain we've had freezing rain the last few days right people are going to want to drive so simply eliminating [1:25:49] parking I think is a bit Hardline on an approach and and trying to right focus [1:25:54] on one or the other I think is a bad thing so again hybrid over EV versus IC [1:25:59] um the bridg piece of this I think is a great step in the right direction um so [1:26:05] I'll say personally when I run through the city France Avenue kind of serves as a [1:26:11] barrier um even though I live over by the high school so it's not that far away um I really just don't want to [1:26:18] cross France I mean it feels like it's crossing a highway so right now where I cross is the Ros and park Bridge because [1:26:24] 62 I can get across on foot rather easily and then I go into Minneapolis where it's a lot where things are a lot [1:26:30] more connected I can get around a lot more easily so you know disagree with the feedback that the [1:26:37] bridge just somehow isn't like we've lost the battle already I think we need [1:26:42] to you know take smaller baby steps here and I think this is a good spot um I think it would invite that connectivity [1:26:49] over to the prominade a lot more um so I'm you know want to see us keep going [1:26:56] down that path I think it's a it's a good step every let's see what else did I [1:27:01] have on there um I know this is an early concept you [1:27:06] know I think around the north side of the building and stuff like that sidewalks really just the connectivity [1:27:12] of of all of it right I think I'm sure that you probably have plans for that it's not on here so I thought thought i' [1:27:19] mention it right if you want to really be pedestrian friendly you want to be as much you could to connect around all [1:27:25] four sides um and and yeah and then that one and then [1:27:31] the corner the retail Corner the the promade corner I I think it's a difficult question or different [1:27:38] difficult spot just because it's hard like in the winter so I was in the [1:27:43] prominade a few few weeks ago we did like a a photo shoot for Runner safety [1:27:48] um on the prominade and it was cold and there was it was dead there was nobody on the prominade whatsoever ever and I [1:27:55] wonder how well we'd be able to sustain retail on that corner or a restaurant [1:28:00] especially if you have Lim if you were to eliminate even more parking people would just go elsewhere right why would [1:28:05] you go there in the winter and how well how attractive of a space would that be for a developer so this a challenging [1:28:11] one I I do agree with that like that sight line probably you don't want that that wall there but as far as putting [1:28:16] retail space there you might get better activate better if you put it in the middle or it's more accessible rather [1:28:22] than just from the promade direction so yeah and again sorry I can't tie it back [1:28:29] to vacation or anything the photo shoot that qualifies for something yeah yeah [1:28:34] yeah no that's that's great commentary I appreciate that it's always great to have kind of those varying perspectives [1:28:39] um I think we like to think of ourselves as a hybrid in this debate too um because we obviously want to do the best [1:28:46] for the cities that we're working in and then we're also kind of beholden to some of those Market forces like these [1:28:52] projects just don't get built without the using is coming so we're trying to balance all that and um you know it's [1:28:58] good to hear kind of all the sides of that debate thank you yeah I mean I know personally like you know it's part of the attractiveness of say like 50th in [1:29:05] France for example is we usually park there in the winter right you have less of an options for parking and properties [1:29:12] to the North and South have opportunities for them me to park I'm going to go there in the winter and I'm not going to avoid your property good [1:29:19] point [1:29:24] I forgot to bring it but I did see you in a flyer through the city I don't know if anyone saw it it was him and his [1:29:31] running gear and what was it it wasn't about town it was it's the public city works right [1:29:37] City Works yeah yeah so you still have it run safety right did you for that or [1:29:43] what's that did you have to like an ad or something like a paid piece uh was not paid one I volteer I I got paid in [1:29:49] exposure so that was was what was [Music] important you can't re recogniz him he's all bundled up it's winter winter [1:29:57] safy you know I made sure I wore my Boston jacket too to stand out a little bit I mean it it your perspective helps [1:30:06] us remember all the ways people want to get around our city so it's really important to consider all those cuz yeah [1:30:14] if France was easy to cross it would just France would look a whole lot different than we see it today [1:30:20] so I have some comments and then questions and then I'll tweak my [1:30:27] comments base off of your answers but um I think you know process is such a big [1:30:35] piece of this like we can imagine this perfect outcome and destination but truly there there are so many competing [1:30:42] interests and constraints and opportunities you have that you know the [1:30:48] process will really kind of evolve yet and continue to inform us and I I feel [1:30:54] like we this is a a rare example where we get to see a sketch [1:30:59] plan again and it hasn't change that much so often times after a sketch plan [1:31:06] we give our feedback and then here comes a formal plan whether or not some of it was incorporated is a different thing [1:31:13] but usually when it comes back for another sketch plan something's changed so much and we're starting over so this [1:31:18] is really cool to see that things really haven't changed much toward a negative [1:31:24] uh and you're still willing to incorporate what could be here um so [1:31:32] just about the process what I appreciate you brought tonight is you went through discret points from [1:31:40] our last sketch plan and how you address them how you're incorporating them I think that's really important for us as [1:31:46] well as the public to know why we're seeing what we're seeing um I like the [1:31:51] bringing up the model and just going through it versus having a canned video walk through I think this that was a [1:31:57] cool thing that I don't think I've seen so Props you on that and then [1:32:05] um just as I said it during the sketch plan [1:32:11] I mean this this to me is one of the top opportunity sites in the city that we [1:32:18] have you have so many things right around it that make this like the [1:32:23] opportunity of this generation potentially and um really speak to like [1:32:29] whatever Legacy you guys want to do professionally as as well as personally and there's a lot of City people [1:32:35] involved you know this is touching one of the best parts of Centennial Lakes right as it bends up connects to the [1:32:42] prominade you have this little Confluence right there you have Pinstripes you have all this activity and we have this neighboring Development [1:32:49] Across The Street and the city's willing to like play ball and invest and get a connection across I mean let's go for it [1:32:57] right and so whatever you guys have to do and whatever risk like I hope you're [1:33:03] transparent with that so then the city can help where they can we can help where we can cuz like commissioner [1:33:09] mirandon that said you know if you're afraid of three extra stories cuz of three neighbors 900 ft away I think we [1:33:16] can we can change things in favor of that to you know if it's going to stop [1:33:22] the best version of what this could be I think let's let's try to focus on that [1:33:29] um so some of the questions I have it's more more toward design and process and [1:33:35] then I'll save it for my final comments but [1:33:41] regarding like feasibility financing you said you're going to bring this forward formally [1:33:48] kind of soon you guys feeling good cuz I know across the streets in a different situation [1:33:54] and elsewhere how's that looking I don't have a single concern okay [1:34:00] I'm sorry excuse me I was a little sarcastic um do you want me to respond [1:34:05] now yeah okay uh yes I mean um I mean big picture we're we're in a good spot [1:34:11] we're confident we're moving forward we feel as good as anybody could feel in this moment that we're in um I think [1:34:17] where we've been able to align with City staff the Consultants go through this process we feel good about the direction [1:34:24] of this project is heading from a use perspective a square footage metrics everything that's working out like and [1:34:30] we can back that all into performance it's all working we've had conversations with Equity groups and partners and [1:34:36] they're all very positive at this point in time this project is early enough on that there's no way for anybody to [1:34:42] guarantee anything I I'm just a transparent person I'd rather just be honest about that but we are in a really [1:34:47] strong position this is not a project where we're just kicking tires it doesn't even pencil right now and we're just throwing a Hail Mary hoping that [1:34:53] it's going work no we Enclave takes a conservative approach to development if we don't have the intention of getting [1:34:59] this done based on the circumstances today and we couldn't get it done today we wouldn't touch it this is not a speculative guess it and hope it make [1:35:06] makes it work scenario like we're going to we're fully committed it's working right now assuming everything stays on [1:35:12] track but there's a you know a lot of complexities here a lot of variables so we need to work through those and see [1:35:18] where the project goes see where the market goes obviously interest rates are a massive factor in that we can't [1:35:24] control it right now they're on the downward at least it appears that they're on the downward at least stable [1:35:29] uh scen uh forecast that's a positive construction costs are a huge variable [1:35:34] again obviously we can't control but same there they feel like they're they're stable if not slightly getting better so right now we're ready to go [1:35:41] and we have users Equity financing everything kind of teed up so we're very excited to be here with here with you [1:35:47] again at this touch point because we want to go we're ready to go great thank [1:35:52] you so so when I look look at the site and the composition of it where things are laid out where the ideal path to [1:35:59] crosses and where a backup path to crosses can you help me understand is that the best and optimal [1:36:06] version for you guys to make things pencil out or are there other changes that you'd be willing to entertain or [1:36:14] different ways to see things to make a pencil out better because who knows maybe it ends up being better for the [1:36:21] community too I mean are we looking at kind of like what you're going to aim for for your formal proposal or is you [1:36:28] know what type of are we talking like hey we'll cut off this corner um but that's about it like just what are some [1:36:35] of those key details of what are the constraints I know you you know for instance like the two levels below grade [1:36:41] combining those you know that's saving on cost but other buildings are split apart what is some of the phasing [1:36:48] planned here which buildings if this is what you're building are going to go first versus second third [1:36:55] fourth and then I'll share some of my [1:37:00] comment I will I'm going to start backwards phasing perspective um the apartments on the [1:37:07] east side the two apartment buildings uh from a big picture perspective will be one project it is [1:37:14] one project financ uh funded Equity um Construction contract it's all [1:37:19] one project with that being said we plan to deliver it in two phases is just naturally with that unit count to hold [1:37:26] on to 400 units for that long period of time and pay the interest on it is just like a Death Wish financially so we need [1:37:33] to phase the opening that's what we intend to do on the east side the West Side there's two individual partners [1:37:39] that are managing those projects they both want to start as soon as we were able to close with Macy's and and Macy's [1:37:47] um uh will occupy the building for a short period of time after we close but as soon as they leave the building [1:37:54] everybody right now the intention is that we'd all start construction as you can imagine there's uh Master site [1:38:00] improvements there's public improvements uh utilities grading um so there might be some logic in having one person [1:38:07] manage that process to begin with and have like a master contract Master Construction Master scope for that type [1:38:14] of work we have not worked through those details yet um wanted to get through this stage get a little bit deeper in the project and we'll work through those [1:38:20] details but it's going to be complex there's going to be a lot of overlapping stages and construction efforts here [1:38:26] that will be need to be well coordinated um as far as the path and maybe if you [1:38:32] don't going back one sec so the two on the west with those happen in concert but they're separate correct like so and [1:38:40] would those happen before the residential at at this point or not necessarily or as of right now the plan [1:38:46] is everything goes at once that's that's the intention I don't have a way just one [1:38:51] than the other Y and I don't have obviously a way to guar you know like the there's so many factors for [1:38:57] everybody that's handling every building so they may choose a different path at some point but right now that is the [1:39:02] intention everybody move forward at the same time but lots of complexity there and we'll need to make sure it's well [1:39:08] coordinated if I may on the uh another point that you had made uh were you [1:39:14] asking what are if we had an opinion on rerouting the east to west Connections in a different way that better yeah all [1:39:20] of it like what like because what was mentioned earlier was this is the ideal thing and I think we all could picture [1:39:26] an ideal connection is if you come up from that middle and you see your path [1:39:32] forward all the way kind of underneath France and through like that's the ideal [1:39:37] path and then we talked about like maybe there's this alternative to kind of walk [1:39:42] around the building to the South and then the west and along France then tie into it yeah um what what is kind of [1:39:51] prompted that alternative to be Flo and this seems to be like a [1:39:56] primary I take the first part of this you okay with that yeah okay um that's [1:40:03] that's a great question I think we all really appreciate that being asked um because often times we're just reacting [1:40:08] right and so this is an opportunity for us to kind of talk about the process and those things I think from our [1:40:14] perspective that initial plan that we we provided with that straight axis worked really really well um as you identified [1:40:23] the kind of view corridors great this works well too like we we found a way to make [1:40:28] this work but I think we would be remiss if we didn't at least mention that you know kind of having to accommodate the [1:40:35] additional space on the south side has caused us to have to reconfigure some spaces and some of those pads have [1:40:43] become if it were a blank slate less than ideal for what we would do but we [1:40:49] understand this is a process and there's a lot of owners in this and there's a lot of stakeholders so we're we're [1:40:55] definitely willing to participate in that process but you know in the nature of transparency I think would you agree [1:41:02] with that yeah yeah I mean I N I mean a lot of this shifting around of the buildings for us on the development side [1:41:08] is pushed us to I would say the reasonable maximum ability to shrink and [1:41:14] move and if that makes any sense if we went any further we'd be be I'm not sure we'd be able to keep proceeding but [1:41:21] we've welcomed that discussion I mean ultimately we agree with City staff and and we've we've met with staff and [1:41:27] Consultants multiple times on this your question was like one of the biggest topics we talked through um ultimately [1:41:35] we think that coming to a a design that can achieve both is better for everybody [1:41:43] big picture long term and you gave the example of a wonderful development you have everybody has I mean it's been such a wonderful process we've received so [1:41:49] many examples of fantastic developments I think you said it well and to you know candid that's your perspective that you [1:41:56] mentioned on the site and I'm sure a lot of people share it is what brought us here that's why we that we pursued [1:42:01] Macy's for a year and a half with no responses and kept pursuing kept pursuing and the reason why is what you said we think this is a great [1:42:07] opportunity and we think we need to be creative there's a lot of different forces that play here and we need to [1:42:13] find a place where it's a win for everybody and when it is a win for everybody we think that's going to [1:42:18] create the best outcome for the community and for us as developers so I think we've struck that we believe that [1:42:24] we've struck that balance it's a big reason why we're here today is because of these changes we made in the site plan we want to check back in from a big [1:42:31] picture that the spacing is reasonable for everybody and then now that will allow us to continue on with our job of [1:42:37] Designing our pads and getting into the detail design yeah exactly right awesome [1:42:42] on the path perspective I mean the two Michaels you guys don't have any [1:42:48] experience with the city or any design stuff right not at all um can you speak [1:42:53] to kind of some of some of how you guys got to those points was it in concert with them you [1:43:01] know of like the design paths and Alternatives and then just so we it was in fact um we had uh I think Patrick you [1:43:09] commented on nine different layouts of different and then you introduced a 10th [1:43:15] and the 10th actually showed a path shifting to the South um and when we started to look at it there were two [1:43:21] things that were really important important about it is it began to bring the Regional Trail into the same Corridor and that was really important [1:43:28] to us and the second thing is that it it concentrated the development into a way [1:43:34] that it could move on its path and the city could its timeline path and the [1:43:39] city could pursue its public space path on its own or more on its own and that was also really important we couldn't [1:43:45] find we couldn't do this in a way where one project would delay you're talking about the markets and this is the time [1:43:52] to go with the market Market we didn't want to compromise that um it's also really important as we look at this um [1:43:59] having been involved in centen lakes and having been involved in the South Del plan and having former council members [1:44:05] planning commissioner members saying why can't we do things more like centen leges it's because you had one property [1:44:11] owner who sold one piece of property to a developer with the city involved 100 acres at a time now we're dealing with a [1:44:17] really big site and it's an it's 8% of what centeno lakes was um so this this [1:44:23] is really an important opportunity and Bill talked about it at the beginning you have two sites moving forward at the [1:44:29] same time across the road from one another with the opportunity to create a connection to the neighborhood that many [1:44:35] of us live in we can't get across France Avenue I'm not waiting for light rail till I can cross France Avenue without [1:44:41] putting my grandchildren eventually kids at at risk to cross France Avenue this [1:44:48] has to happen now great so I guess when you guys said it made sense to kind of [1:44:53] go south can you elaborate on that and kind of I mean when I look at the plan if [1:44:59] you're wrapping around the building it it looks pretty tight to maintain Gallagher and that that doesn't seem [1:45:08] anything like a Centennial Lakes Vibe where you have multiple turns around blind [1:45:13] Corners can you just help me feel what that's going to could feel like so so [1:45:19] what's what's great about Centennial Lakes and about the prominade is it's constantly changing it's not the same [1:45:24] WID all the way through and it's actually centenal Lakes the park is conceived of as a especially on the west [1:45:32] side as a very broad connection that would have had at some point a rubber [1:45:38] tired trowley going through you can still see the demarcations in the in the pavement where the that would separate [1:45:44] the two lanes of traffic um that's that that that connective tissue is actually [1:45:50] pulling together a lot of small separate rooms or As you move through as the prominade was developed reaching out to [1:45:56] the north it's the same idea where you have these strands of movement that are connecting together rooms so we don't [1:46:02] have to have everything be the same we don't have to have everything really wide in fact what was interesting about the south side is that the sense of [1:46:09] space we had when you put Gallagher and the trail in the mix is now you have more than 50 or 60 feet you have I don't [1:46:16] know might be 100 something 120 yeah so so you actually have the sense of a [1:46:22] really Broad space when you come around the southide and when you think about how you approach this and want to um and [1:46:29] and again have having been involved in the design of Cent Lakes the worst thing about centen Lakes is you'd never find [1:46:35] it from a public RightWay you cross over it's like oh there's something down there here you're going to approach it at an intersection with a traffic signal [1:46:42] and you're going to be able to see that there's this great public view great public connection back to something else [1:46:48] which doesn't happen to many other places especially on France Avenue when we were talking with the the developer [1:46:54] team what we got excited about and actually encouraged they talked about well what if you know if we had bonies [1:47:01] from the housing that encroached out like 6 feet from the building would that be okay we're like bring it on the more [1:47:08] the better right the more paracity between the development and the public realm the better like you want those [1:47:15] corners of activity and you know when they're talking about where would a restaurant want to be the more we can do [1:47:20] that and I think it's okay to squeeze down a little bit and then pop into a room um and then bro it out open it up [1:47:28] just let that happen now there's a lot of design between where we are here and [1:47:34] how that gets manifested but I'm confident that it can work and Mike if I may one other big thing that we haven't [1:47:40] talked about tonight is if we had that prent running through the center like we originally did you have buildings there [1:47:46] eight n stories on the north side of that so what that means functionally for us is it's winter we have no sunlight [1:47:53] going there that is going to be a frozen Windswept Plaza you know like that's not going to be a pleasant experience all [1:47:59] the time around but if we put this on the south side which is why we originally talked about it it's in the sun all the time the you you have [1:48:06] daylight it's it's exposed on one whole side we have 100 to 150 ft 200 before we [1:48:12] even get to a building so from just a pure architectural standpoint from A View quarter standpoint this makes a [1:48:19] whole lot more sense and then we can allow the central spine to be more like you were talking about which is a more [1:48:24] retail environment where you really want all that pedestrian activation to be tight and kind of controlled and we can [1:48:29] put in lights at that level to make that ground level feel more active but the way I have always seen it [1:48:37] is the middle pathway is still an extension of the prominade it's just [1:48:43] that at the end at some point there's going to be stepping down right so there's two paths one is more accessible [1:48:50] to everyone and bicycles and the others a straight up pedestrian connection as [1:48:57] well and then would you imagine the end of it as a dead ends toward France there'd be like steps or something to [1:49:04] come down to the other connection as such okay yeah it would be uh commissioner Bennett if you recall what [1:49:11] we did on 7250 across the street where it wasn't just steps we terracing down I [1:49:16] think we would look at something like that it's much more landscaped heavy and as um Mr fiser said like if we get rid [1:49:25] of the requirement for accessibility there we can do stuff that's a lot more interesting along that side and still do [1:49:32] the accessibility on the south and so then when it comes to the site across the street elephant in the room or not [1:49:40] in the room I should say uh what I mean are they game too I mean we [1:49:47] just haven't heard any details about to what level cuz I mean you had the terracing on that side but it started up [1:49:54] higher they I I mean I know you've talked to them I've talked to Ted and Drew they're very much game for this and [1:50:00] in fact if you go the tunnel um we're not calling it a tunnel what are we calling it a bridge if you go the Bridge [1:50:06] route um it's actually a better connection because we are 18 ft down [1:50:12] already as you get to the west side of that site so that means that we don't have to do as much earth work and things [1:50:18] like that so um it's a great time for that conversation because they starting to entertain a conversation about what [1:50:24] happens on 7200 uh which could be more a kind of retail usage and if we start [1:50:30] talking about that we might be able to get on board with bringing some retail down to that level U like we're talking [1:50:36] about here to create activation Ted's Ted's been also very [1:50:42] cooperative and very interested in in this whole idea in the Tiff agreement that we [1:50:48] negotiated for the 7250 there's a clause that says they will partner with us to build if they [1:50:54] want to use Tiff to build anything and that wasn't an arm twist that was [1:51:00] something they recognize as beneficial for the whole effort and so what to what depth do you [1:51:06] need to get to get underneath this bridge I mean obviously we're assuming France isn't going to change much [1:51:11] elevation wise going back or forward from this Crossing so we got to work with what they have 15 we're actually [1:51:19] studying that so if if you figure we have it's very similar to the diagram was at the beginning the [1:51:24] clearance underneath has to be um 10t to be able to be bicycle clearance [1:51:29] standards yeah and at at 13 7 or whatever it was you have plenty of clearance plenty of space um so if you [1:51:36] fig that 13 or 14 or 15 plus the structure at four or 5T you probably [1:51:41] need to get down about 20 ft but what we're looking at is can you actually bring France Avenue up a little bit um [1:51:47] and yeah we're this is the right spot to be looking at this to happen [1:51:53] all right okay yeah so speaking of elephants in the room so the city has a [1:51:59] climate action plan and um and I know because I was on the committee for that too and we have a a goal of reducing [1:52:06] vehicle miles traveled so unless you want a bus going down your street then we need transort Transit going down [1:52:12] France Avenue and York Avenue and 66 Street and so we have some of that now we have the brt line the E line coming [1:52:19] soon but if we don't you know if we if we freeze in the design of France Avenue [1:52:25] today then we will never meet those goals so we you're just writing the city is just writing off those goals [1:52:30] completely with rebuilds um so the question more relevant to you guys is [1:52:38] so this is Carrie correct me if I'm wrong but this this space is about this [1:52:44] property is about a third of the DDE of 50th in France it well I'm not sure this is it's [1:52:52] 8 it's a big piece of property so and you were talking about doing the the housing [1:52:58] separately or whatever does that mean you're splitting the property or no from a development standpoint from a property [1:53:05] from the city ownership you know you're um I I I think if I understand the [1:53:11] question correctly we there'll probably be three separate owners it will be parcel off for the residential on East [1:53:17] will be under one ownership and then the two commercial buildings will each have their own ownership okay are are any of [1:53:23] these streets going to be handed over to the city or I think we're willing to [1:53:28] talk about it either way we're open to it we understand typically it's private but uh we're we're open okay thank you [1:53:36] it's doubtful that these as designed or as conceived so far at steo they would meet the city's Street standard and so [1:53:43] they would have probably very similar to what we did at 70th in France where it's designed you know to the driver to the [1:53:51] Walker it looks like a street but it would be publicly it be privately owned [1:53:56] privately maintained but the public could use it right the city has no control over what [1:54:02] they do in the future well they they would give us a public easement that says there shall [1:54:08] forever be a street like thing here right but it's not it's not a public [1:54:16] Street I mean so if you look at if you look at in our neighborhood in morning side they had oh I foret the name of the [1:54:22] development but um there's not much new single family home development in Dina but there's there was a a large lot that [1:54:29] was converted and it has a street you know little KAC or whatever on it and as far as I know that's public that's a [1:54:34] public street right it's not a private Street yeah Trail SEL Trail yes thank [1:54:40] you so so I just I'm I'm concerned about the city not pushing for public space [1:54:48] and you know we talk about public space and commissioner Smith made a good point about the you know is that public is [1:54:53] that not public and we keep seeing all these you know private spaces that the city is calling public and they're not [1:54:59] public spaces and it's all great when you when you present it at these meetings and the initial development but [1:55:07] if the city doesn't own I me imagine the city not opening not owning our Parks or our streets right so it's something that [1:55:15] I'm very concerned about but it's it's not your particular issue I want to bring it up thank you uh one last [1:55:21] question so when we're looking dimensionally from France to that North South Road what's that distance [1:55:27] approximately like how how wide is this site right it's wider than it is so [1:55:33] that's 30 we call 326 ft to to that road [1:55:38] and then if you want the total site um we'll give you an average Dimension call [1:55:43] it 715 ft and then north to south it is definitely wider than it is [1:55:50] tall uh North South we 500 nominally 500 [1:55:55] ft all right so I got a few comments thank you guys for sharing all that information it helps like just [1:56:02] understand where you're coming from where you're trying to go and we want to help you get there cuz this this is on [1:56:07] the right track uh so I'd say my first comments are is if this doesn't change [1:56:13] all that much I'll come formal application uh I think it's great uh I [1:56:21] would I would fill that space on the northeast corner it doesn't serve a purpose if you [1:56:27] can get more footprint for your building uh it makes sense to kind of do [1:56:35] what commissioner boury mentioned of using that East West spine to be heavily [1:56:42] activated so i' I'd focus on either protruding out that Southeast retail [1:56:48] like physically from the building and it maybe the building subsp so it it's [1:56:55] humanized in scale and like you want to go there because you're you're right at a Confluence of all these paths like it [1:57:02] it makes sense to have a huge patio there some retail restaurant component [1:57:07] but then I'd continue it around you know to bring you down that spine not take [1:57:12] you west of there um because there's just you'll see the side of a parking [1:57:18] ramp and you'll you'll see France it's not going to be that nice um um so I'd [1:57:23] focus on that type of change I'd put more height on either of the other [1:57:29] buildings or even these buildings if it makes things pencil out better for you [1:57:34] um I I just don't see why not like especially those residential like if it makes sense to get more units in those [1:57:41] you're farther back from things um for either of these going up a couple stories I just I I you could move some [1:57:49] of the height toward the back squeeze the building in to the east go up then it gives you more space along [1:57:57] France because and that's pretty much the bulk of my comments for that and then [1:58:03] commissioner Bennett may I may I ask one question on that um if uh I think I [1:58:09] think we appreciate that comment because I think there is potential that we could go higher but going higher comes with a [1:58:14] commensurate increase in parking Podium so how do you feel if we went up three [1:58:20] more stories say we might have another level or level half parking so I I don't mind if like things shift toward like [1:58:28] you want to be walking down that eastwest spine eventually and it's nice like if you line the north side of that [1:58:35] building you won't really notice there's parking there you're only going to be driving by it on the east side or biking [1:58:40] by it's not going to really affect like a pedestrian experience until like say [1:58:46] that path comes in but you're going to have to be carving out the Earth and now you have a new opportunity build [1:58:52] something lower mhm and then humanize the scale at that time so I think it [1:58:58] works okay um then dreaming [1:59:03] big so I'm I'm trying to think of you know [1:59:10] to get this connection across France you know how do we do it with the least [1:59:16] resistance and that's like to me the lowest cost so I feel like there could be a different approach and it's [1:59:23] probably one of the 10 you mentioned you know um but coming along that Southside [1:59:29] and then dropping turning a corner then turning a corner to go under France there's going to be significant costs [1:59:35] here cuz you're going to have to build a retaining structure along that whole perimeter now you're abing France with [1:59:41] it it gets complicated gets expensive where the cheapest Crossings are where [1:59:47] you're just going straight under at one point which brings me to kind of like my preference is like what your original [1:59:54] preference is is to kind of have that East West Connection go down and so part of it is do you I can [2:00:03] see where you have issues with how do you accommodate that [2:00:08] potential phasing but for me what I see and what you mention with the distance from east to west you got 325 ft if you [2:00:16] maintain 5% grade you know that gets you 16 and 1/2 [2:00:21] ft drop if you go straight line but you could Meander a path down there now you [2:00:27] have a retaining well already built on both sides so at that point when you do it it's just cheaper for you it's [2:00:35] cheaper for the city and it's cheaper for the county when they decide to Pony up money instead of for the light rail [2:00:41] like they just did um to get this done so I think you could and in in that [2:00:47] dream scenario would be kind of creating this atmosphere that commissioner borne he mentioned of like let's say the East [2:00:54] te where you're coming into the middle going out to the to the prominade and [2:01:01] then this kind of just meanders its way down and that's where I just feel like [2:01:06] there's a conflict of like use like that would make the most sense if that was residential there where you can kind of [2:01:14] Stager walk up units at different elevations as you're going up and down it and it's just enjoyable [2:01:22] so that's my my big dream that I think could happen with one of your Alternatives and it's just something to [2:01:29] think about otherwise what you have presented I think is setting us up for some awesome success I just I personally [2:01:36] feel if you had this activated Corridor and you see that sight line going down [2:01:42] would be a lot more enjoyable than walking down around a really tall building than walking down a path rate [2:01:48] between a busy road and a tall building then turning the corner it just doesn't seem as nice so that's [2:01:56] all I got to say but this is really exciting and whatever ends up happening here has a potential to be the you know [2:02:04] that that change on par with Centennial Lakes and what that did we continue to [2:02:10] use it and that's it's like 50 years in the making so I think you guys have a [2:02:15] really exciting opportunity really excited for what you can do sweet [2:02:24] you got you're looking like you got some comments always always always but uh you know just two quick things so slight [2:02:31] conflict right which is building out the retail on that side versus the retail on the inside so I think you're getting a [2:02:37] lot of feedback right so you guys got to make decisions based on the feedback so hopefully um you make the right [2:02:44] decision thanks for that let [2:02:49] me um the other question I'm just curious about raising FRS I [2:02:55] think you guys mentioned that as a potential option elaborate can you just talk a bit [2:03:01] more about raising FR just it's it's the study the we're about [2:03:08] to begin we can actually look at the the profile grades and make sure that we can [2:03:13] uh look at the optimal optimal vertical location for a bridge where all of the [2:03:18] properties on each side and it just means we taper the roadways out further away from the bridge it doesn't mean [2:03:25] there's a hump in a bridge it means that the the roadways coming off each end of the bridge are tapered over longer [2:03:30] distance I mean right now France Avenue through this stretch does this it's [2:03:36] subtle but it does it several feet so if you just level that out you actually can [2:03:41] reduce the retaining walls up by buer Le look at those big retaining walls part of it because France is doing this [2:03:48] gotcha so it's it's yeah it wouldn't be a hump okay yeah yeah thank you that was [2:03:53] helpful um that's it thank you [2:04:01] one thank you very much everybody for all your comments and for being open to this format this has actually been very [2:04:07] helpful I mean I frankly wish we could do this in council chambers but maybe we'll have to try that next [2:04:18] time thanks everybody here's your stuff that car thank you sir