[0:10] all right good morning everybody sorry I'm a little bit late I decided to go a different route this morning and go through town it didn't really pan out [0:16] that well I thought instead of queuing up out on the highway it might be a good thing anyway um everybody ready to go [0:24] very good um well good morning everybody it is uh [0:29] July ju 25th 2024 there goes summer uh 7:34 p.m. or a.m. excuse me 7:34 a.m. [0:38] and this is the d Housing Redevelopment Authority meeting at the city hall council chambers and I think you've been [0:45] instructed that uh there is a chance to participate in community comment this morning you can call in the number I [0:50] think that'll come up on the screen momentarily uh and we get to that part [0:55] of the agenda fairly quickly so people should be writing these numbers down so they can call in if they have a concern [1:01] that they want to discuss with the HRA that's not on the agenda this morning or otherwise scheduled for a future public [1:06] hearing before the HRA so having provided that information I'll call the meeting to order and ask our [1:11] administrative planning specialist Liz Olsson to call the role commissioner Risser here [1:17] commissioner Jackson here commissioner Pierce here commissioner U here chair huband here uh next is a pledge of [1:28] allegiance alance to the flag of the United States of America and to the [1:34] Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and [1:41] justice for all and we have a form of meeting agenda [1:47] is there anyone that wishes to modify the agenda in any former fashion if not I'll entertain a motion to adopt the [1:53] meeting agenda to show so moved commissioner Jackson moves second commissioner U second see adoption of [2:00] the meeting agenda any further discussion all those in favor of adopting the meeting agenda is published [2:05] say I I I opposed carried the meeting agenda is adopted uh and next Community [2:11] comment we are back up at the time for Community comment and do we have anyone in the audience that wishes to address [2:17] the H in a matter of concern to them that's not on the agenda or otherwise scheduled for a future public [2:24] hearing hearing nothing and seeing no one coming forward do we have anybody online I do not have anyone online but [2:31] because there is a slight delay in the broadcast I would recommend we wait a minute or so before moving on my clock [2:37] shows it at 7:34 so I will come back to you at 7:35 or when I have a caller whichever is first thank you [3:34] what is assuredly one of the longest minutes of your day has now passed and you may move on with the agenda all [3:40] right very good thank you um our practice is to have the executive director director respond to community [3:47] comments that were made at the pr meeting our executive director also our city manager uh the same position [3:53] different hats anything to comment on there there's nothing to comment on uh there's only one item on the [3:59] consent agenda and that's the draft minutes of the regular meeting of June 13 2024 is there a motion to adopt the [4:06] uh draft minutes of the regular meeting of June 13 2024 for the h so moved [4:12] commiss Jackson moves commissioner Pier second the adoption of the draft minutes or the minutes of the regular meeting of [4:18] June 13 2024 any further discussion those in favor of adopting the minutes of the regular meeting on June 13 2024 [4:25] say I I I opposed carried those minutes are adoped opted and then we'll move on [4:30] to reports and recommendations we got some interesting things to discuss this morning and the first one up is the um [4:38] continuing work that started a couple years ago and we had the opportunity to look at two pieces of property across [4:44] the street from each other in France Avenue uh kind of co-developing and so it gave us a chance to think about how [4:50] to get people safely across France Avenue and uh Bill narf our economic [4:55] development director and others have been working on this concept since then and busying with the county since it's a [5:01] County Road and we're uh interested in this concept update so Mr nondorf welcome this morning yes good morning uh [5:08] as you mentioned here this morning with an update uh for the last several months uh the city's been working with the [5:14] engineers and planners at lhb um to bring this concept to Greater Clarity uh [5:20] still a long way to go as we as we refine this but we've met numerous times times with uh Transportation officials [5:26] at hanban County um there's been a lot of engineering work and a lot of collaboration between the uh property [5:32] owners and developers on both sides of the street as well as their engineering teams and their design teams um so we [5:39] wanted to give you a brief update this morning um we' scheduled about 20 minutes this morning I know there's a [5:44] this is a big picture it's a big concept um so we've also schedu scheduled a work session in two weeks to have a further [5:50] discussion just because we had limited time today but I'd like to introduce Mike fiser with lhb and Brad RC also [5:57] with lhb they've been the two uh key principles working on this effort they'll provide an update this morning [6:02] and be available for any questions all right very good thanks Mr [6:08] nondorf fer how we good to see you again we saw each other last night good to see you uh Commissioners uh chair staff [6:17] thank you for the opportunity to be here uh we're going to keep this very brief but the last time I believe Michael [6:23] schroer and I were here talking about this concept and um so uh Brad rste and [6:29] and I are here Brad is the engineer on our team who is leading actually coordinating with our Bridge engineers [6:35] and our transportation Engineers um to to find out is this feasible so we drew [6:40] some pretty pictures and get people excited about what's possible but Is it feasible um so we're in that process and [6:48] we just want to share where we're at with it uh if you recall one of the diagrams you saw last time we met was [6:55] you know we talked about well could we come through the middle of this development uh and drop down and get [7:01] under the street and in the conversations with the developer they preferred to keep their Central Plaza at [7:08] grade level and asked if we could get creative and make the parkway uh and at that and that concept showed you know [7:14] coming creating Bridges and coming down at a at a below grade through both [7:20] developments uh in working with a developer last time we were here we talked about this new South Parkway [7:26] South prominade idea where where they could keep their Central Plaza at grade and we drop down around the South and [7:33] that's where you directed us to go off and determine is this feasible is this idea doable um so I'm happy to report [7:40] that today it feels pretty doable U so the one thing we talked about at that last meeting also was using the model of [7:47] the York Avenue Bridges uh where you're really creating a series of two Bridges with space in between making it feel not [7:55] so much like a tunnel um these are the most current drawings depicting both [8:00] developments each side of the street um and here in the middle is just a very [8:08] uh light drawing of where we're at right now with what we'll call the France Avenue Crossing we're still below the [8:15] street not above we're not looking at a bridge well we're looking at two bridges on France Avenue but that you would walk [8:21] under them um and I'm going to ask Brad to talk a little bit about the engineering and and one thing I want to [8:27] say is you probably look at these drawings Mike what have you done what have you spent your time on there's very [8:33] few you know did you draw much and the reality is every line here represents [8:38] multiple meetings and you know meeting with the developers and their design teams and the county multiple times and [8:45] talking about every little Nuance every inch we can get uh because the goal is [8:50] what we're trying to do is create as much space between the bridges as we can get essentially so Brad why don't you [8:56] cover a little bit of the engineering thank you thank you Mike um so this this first drawing uh depicts the [9:03] construction limits that would have to occur on France Avenue to build the um [9:08] underpass uh the areas in yellow are the roadway uh reconstruction areas and the [9:15] the areas that are highlighted in red are either medians or curban gutters so as you can see from this drawing here [9:21] the start of reconstruction is just south of the intersection of Gallagher and then just [9:26] north of 72nd Street so um I should mention too that the southbound Lanes on [9:33] France Avenue uh would not change geometrically uh the lane widths and the turn lane uh from France Avenue onto [9:40] Gallagher would not change uh the slight changes to Geometry would happen on the [9:45] North side um those changes would happen at the center median we've uh been able [9:51] to identify a taper that's striped today with uh just pavement markings and we're [9:58] taking that area and building it into a permanent uh concrete median and then [10:03] we're shortening the right turn lane that goes into um the the old Macy's site and [10:09] berle's there so um horizontally there's not too many changes again this is [10:15] primarily driven by uh the vertical changes in France Avenue so this next [10:21] drawing uh is the depiction below is the vertical profile that will be changing [10:28] again the the dash line that's faint there is the existing great of France Avenue uh the existing low Point um is [10:36] just uh north of the new underpass um what we're proposing to do is again go [10:42] over the underpass raise the road about 7 ft and what that causes is a couple uh [10:49] new low points one just north of the intersection of Gallagher and one just north of the [10:55] intersection of 72nd Avenue um the next slide is just the [11:01] typical section at the new underpass again France Avenue southbound lane configurations have not changed [11:08] horizontally uh we've been able to gain a little um space again at the median uh [11:14] currently it's about 4 and A2 ft so we've been able to gain approximately 5 feet there and then again we're reducing [11:21] the the right turn lane into buyer Le and so uh you do not see the right turn lane on this depiction of the typical [11:28] section I just want to point out you know the two red verticals in the middle you know it's the two Bridges that's the [11:34] Gap in between that Brad's talking about and I want you to just focus on that for a minute because later I'm going to come [11:39] back and talk about that space and then the next slide excuse me [11:45] is the profile um for the underpass uh beginning on the left hand [11:51] side at uh the new development of 7250 we've been able to try to match uh the [11:57] grades that they are proposing pretty closely uh the profile would uh go downhill down [12:04] to a low point just uh short of France Avenue collect the storm water for the [12:09] underpass and then go back up um to the other side to 7235 so uh again this is a [12:18] The Underpass is approximately 12T uh with a 12T opening and so we were able [12:24] to try to uh match as Clos as closely as we could to the uh the developers plan [12:30] so um with that said I'll turn it back over to Mike great thank you Brad so I wanted you to [12:37] make sure you knew that there were actual Engineers looking at this not just Michael and I Dreaming okay there's [12:43] some credibility um so one thing um so I'm going to talk about remember I just [12:48] pointed out that median space What do you do between these two Bridges if you think about the lowy Avenue Bridges it's [12:55] like 30 ft of open air and benches and you know that's the way that feels one [13:01] thing we've learned in working with the county we tried every which way to to [13:06] widen that space as much as we could here and they're really not interested in shortening you know and one of them [13:12] would have required us shortening the left turn lane as you go south into the Pinstripes development and they really [13:19] don't want that shortened so we you know we're working with every parameter and Brad's been you know every inch of [13:25] elevation has Ripple effects whether you're raising the road Road widening any of that so we feel like you know [13:33] we've got the amount of space we're going to get in that median so what do we do with it so I started working on a [13:38] little bit of a lighting study what are the precedents out there for you know do you just let it be open space You know [13:44] open to the sky or do you actually do something really interesting in how you bring light down in there between the [13:51] bridges but more importantly maybe at night when it's lit up from underneath what you create on the street what kind [13:58] of iconic element could you create that tells people there's something special going on here um so we've been looking at some [14:05] studies and I'm not going to get into a lot of it today but just know that was [14:11] as you walk under these Bridges it's not just gray concrete that you're feeling it's it could be interesting light and [14:18] it could be um lit well and it could be you know painted bright colors um so it [14:24] it feels better I'm just going to share a couple diagrams um and the these are diagrams there's not this isn't design [14:31] of Pathways but one of the things the county said is they'd like to see in the future bike Lanes uh we of course [14:39] suggested that would be great to do on France Avenue where you have way too many car Lanes but um right now they [14:46] just want us to allow where bike Lanes would happen so on the upper part of this image that gray could be a future [14:54] bike lane the pink is more of a sidewalk for pedestrians on the south side or the [14:59] bottom of this image which is the east side of the street the blue we're showing shared pedestrian and bike ways [15:07] and so that's a pretty wide again it's it's you know the actual design might be [15:13] different paths it's just that's the zone that you would do it in so what we're showing with all those spot elevations is we can make this work you [15:19] can get down uh when Brad lifts the street up we can get under the street in a reasonable elevations and then the [15:27] pink again is um more of the traditional sidewalk uh [15:32] when we met with the developers landscape architect team on Friday it [15:37] was a great brainstorming session and a lot so this diagram was in place until Friday of last week and then we made [15:44] some revisions they shared more information about the development the design of the development on the east [15:50] side and said you can bring that sidewalk up it would be really appropriate to kind of make it easier [15:56] and and less grade cuz before we going down a little to come up a little so [16:01] here and where future restaurants could be located and everything so it's kind of exciting so we're trying to do is get [16:08] the sidewalk as you're walking up France Avenue Rises up at the same level as [16:14] their Plaza which is wonderful like you just kind of could flow in or keep going by and meanwhile the parkway could be [16:22] dropping down on from both North and South with a wonderful set of stairs [16:27] that's really about people gather Gathering and it's it's walking up and down the stairs but it's also stairs as [16:32] a place of of interest and on the West Side same kind of concept where we could [16:39] we we we want to separate the sidewalk from the bridge so it's not extending [16:45] how much time you're under there um and creating an interesting element but the [16:50] developers uh were talking about they want to have activities on the first floor of their buildings that you might [16:56] be sitting outside and so you can see we sort of wrapped that first floor space around so you would have multiple layers [17:03] of activity again these are still diagram stage um just a few Bird's eyye [17:09] views um and and I ask you to think of this as a really rough diagram because [17:16] things wouldn't be this rigid right in this model it's like using a an axxe uh [17:22] in instead of a scalpel here um so what you would see this is if you're flying [17:27] above the east side of France Avenue looking North we just want to show how [17:32] this can drop down yet the sidewalk can stay at that level how the stairs can [17:38] drop down and then sort of an iconic feature in the center of France Avenue [17:44] this isn't what it'll look like necessarily just illustrating what could happen and if you look at the West Side [17:51] um you can see again where we've separated that sidewalk and it's actually showing how the bike lane and [17:57] the sidewalk can join together to cross the bridge and move on this is just sort [18:02] of hovering over the West Side just to give you a slightly different perspective again all of the grades will [18:09] work um and again uh when you look at the building masses um just for the [18:15] developers sake we are not trying it's just a chunk of uh space we're not trying to represent any Heights or [18:21] anything they're doing there uh and then this is just a view standing on the West [18:27] Side looking East under the bridges and one of the ideas of the and by the way [18:33] the from an engineering perspective we're able to do this at a dimension where it's like a 30 foot Bridge um it's [18:41] about as basic as you can get so we can keep the cost of that pretty reasonable but we can still create a curving [18:49] element on the North side so the actual curvature follows how you want to move [18:54] through this and it and uh so you can create this flowing kind of feel here [19:00] you can see you're already looking through you can see the stairs going up the other side so it's not this long [19:05] dark tunnel necessarily and we're just illustrating opportunities you can have we can the walls of this could have [19:12] inlaid artwork um we're playing with ceiling plane again this is a very crude model but the idea um when we start [19:20] playing with light the natural light coming through can be pretty interesting but also the artificial light in there [19:27] without looking at light fixtures I think we can have it's just very very artistic and very um uh flowing kind of [19:35] space so all of that would be designed in the future but as we sit here today uh we haven't found any fatal flaws in [19:42] this working elevations work utilities work uh everything seems to work fine so [19:49] that's our our check-in um and we're here for any questions you might have questions for Mike Fisher yes [19:56] commissioner yes thank you Mr chair so this is a really detailed question but I always worry about graffiti in spaces [20:03] like this and so as you design this I hope that you think about how it can be easily cleaned how it can deter graffiti [20:11] and stuff because I would hate to have something beautiful put in and then just be uh be grimy within a year or two so [20:18] just long-term preventing Grime because you've got soot from the cars going by and oil and and stuff and then also [20:25] graffiti and and so I want to make sure that this space feels clean and welcoming um into the [20:32] future Pi uh thanks Mr chair so I first off I [20:38] really appreciate the thoroughness um even though you said it's an abbreviated [20:44] presentation I think you guys get a a very thorough job of expressing your thoughts and um how you kind of see this [20:51] coming together so I definitely appreciate that I think it has a it does have a chance to um be very iconic in [21:00] that space um and so I definitely like that um and know we talked about you is [21:06] there a way you can have more of these Gathering types of spaces and I I think [21:11] in what you're sharing um you definitely are accomplishing that I had two [21:18] questions one um on this view um you [21:24] talked about the um bringing pedestrian traffic together on the sidewalk I think [21:31] it was the one before that you kind of had two sidewalks um yeah um can you describe so that I [21:40] have a a better understanding of how if I am on if I'm a [21:46] cyclist I would I would get under the bridge cuz on the other View and I I get [21:53] that this is just a visual you've got people on both sides so how would [21:59] the bike traffic go from one side to the other so um that's a great question and [22:05] I'm glad you asked it because what we're what we're showing here is a response that we had to the county who said yeah [22:12] what you're doing is great but in the future we might want bike Lanes up and down France Avenue so we're showing how [22:18] that can happen in the future that's really a future bike lane the the but when you're coming from the [22:26] West um you know what I wish I would have I should have shown maybe a bigger view but when you're coming from on the [22:32] Regional Trail from the West along Gallagher the the wer for the developer [22:38] Street on the west side of their development yeah you'll come right down there and right underneath and then up [22:44] the other side or if you want to be on the west side on France Avenue both or if you're coming down 72nd MH same thing [22:52] you can walk down and through or you can stay at the upper level just by staying on the sidewalks that come around around [22:58] the front Okay so you have both all opportunities that way got it okay um [23:04] thanks for that uh the second question um can [23:09] you talk a little bit about how you're thinking of ADA as you're designing [23:18] sometimes we kind of have a habit of we do a design and then almost kind of [23:24] closer to after the fact we go all right yep for Ada we need to convert these [23:29] steps to a Switchback and then it works and so um can you describe how you're [23:36] thinking about ADA in the base of the design work you're doing absolutely so actually the [23:42] diagram that's up right now is a good example you see all the little Point elevations those are there for exactly [23:48] that reason we want to make sure that at every point we have to stay under certain percent grades so you don't need [23:55] a railing or anything you know this is our ideal is to stay under 5% grade so [24:02] so everyone can move about we I will tell you that on the so originally I [24:08] didn't think we were going to be able to pull off the ability to get from the upper level down below coming from the [24:14] north I thought you would have to take the sidewalk then Loop all the way back down but Michael's been working really [24:20] hard on from that North the the blue line from the north of making that um work [24:28] through with Ada as well so it'd be a real bonus to come from both sides uh [24:34] and so we're you know that's very much what we're doing in fact it's interesting when I talk about Ripple [24:39] effects so right now we're debating you know could we make those paths even better if we lift the grade of the of [24:47] the as you're going under the bridges up by one foot so then we go to Brad and say okay one more foot bread and then if [24:53] he lifts that how does that impact the the first floor of the developers projects because we have to balance with [24:59] those too right uh we already have an approved project on the west side with a certain floor level and right now that's [25:06] all working really well we want to match what Patrick's group's doing on their Plaza through the center so all of it's [25:13] just it's like threading a needle is what it's like but and making sure we're covering the utilities appropriately [25:19] that are running under France Avenue so right now we have a little bit of room and and we're feeling like confident [25:27] that if we went into design it would it would work fine that's great U thanks for that and then [25:33] this last question it could be more for Mr nindorf not quite sure um so I do [25:40] have a funding question um I I know these are kind of rough sketches um sowi [25:46] I say it this way can you give us a rough idea of um what we're talking about here [25:53] from a funding perspective um and really interested in maybe not so much just the [26:01] the cost but the how we would fund [26:06] it do you want me to give the the cost range and that's a very important [26:11] question so um thank you so this is very high level and so the numbers are high [26:17] level but right now we're estimating a very roughly a cost of 15 to 20 million [26:23] that's a big that's a big number now that includes the roadway improvements the underpass improvements also includes [26:31] all the approaches um to get down which are on the developers nickel so to speak so [26:38] there's that's I think Allin total cost um probably utilities as well the retaining walls Hardscape all those [26:45] types of things are all bundled in there as we move further down that number will get more precise um so that's the cost [26:52] and then now assigning the revenue where's the money come from well several million several million I'm talking in [26:57] big growth gross um uh generalizations here um would come from each developer [27:03] right they're responsible for building the approaches on their on their respective sides of the street so on the [27:09] 7200 side that daella Plaza um that's a developer cost on the east side of the [27:15] street where the enclave and lifestyle proposal is that initial work is the developer's cost but when it comes to [27:21] actually building the underpass and changing uh France Avenue the atro [27:26] roadway that would be a city-led project that would be a city incurred cost very similar to what we've done here um [27:33] around Eden Wilson and the Meson green where the developer built the building built his own sidewalks put in the grass [27:40] put in the curb and then the city took over and did everything else the roadway the sidewalks all the work on 50th so [27:47] we'd be looking at a at a similar Arrangement um we would right now the [27:52] way we've structured both of the financing for the private projects both the 7250 as well as the uh Enclave [28:00] lifestyle proposal you'll hear about it shortly um the majority of funding will [28:05] come from tax increment financing that's generated from these new projects um we [28:11] want to be safe I think there's other Federal programs that are out there I think there's some County programs [28:16] there's probably some State programs so we'll look at all sources and Mike I wonder if you want to talk to some of [28:21] those yeah we can get into more detail next time we meet but there are there are opportunities out there um whether [28:27] it's safe rout to schools or other transportation funding opportunities I think we could take advantage of here so [28:33] that with Tiff could get us a long way I would have said 14 to 19 because that just sounds better but I'll go with your [28:41] 15 to 20 it's it's but there's a big gap because there's many unknowns um but the [28:47] actual the bridges themselves are kind of the easy part from the money perspective we've made them very [28:53] straightforward but all that other stuff to make this iconic and special and feel [28:59] like um you want to be under there and you don't want to Graffiti it that that's where we're like keeping some [29:06] flexibility and I wanted to just say one more thing and it's an apology actually to commissioner Risser last time we met [29:12] you asked a very specific question about is this the right spot to CR to cross [29:17] France Avenue and you asked us to look at that and we did immediately when we left here and now it's been so much time [29:23] I forgot to bring that diagram and I will next time we meet but I will tell you [29:28] um this is a very key place to cross and and we did a what's called a pedestrian [29:34] Watershed study where are pedestrians coming from and I'll bring that next time so you can see it thank you y I'm [29:42] going to have commissioner U go first and then you can go thank you uh and thank you so much for bringing this and [29:49] for all of the work that you've put into it I was of the overpass Camp uh and my [29:55] concerns were how can can we make this inviting and how can we not make this feel like [30:01] you're walking under cement Bridges um and I know that this is just really rough initial sketches but because of [30:10] what I'm seeing coming from the developments on both sides the green space that invitation to connect I think [30:19] we're on the path to solving that so thank you for that the only question that I have is because of that because [30:27] of how a essential the collaboration across numerous parties is for this type [30:34] of project are you seeing the Buy in and the excitement from everyone that needs [30:43] to come to the table and if not do you see any concerns progressing with this [30:50] multiple stakeholder ambitious initiative yeah I I think the developers [30:55] on both sides have been really wonderful ful in terms of being open to this but [31:01] understand they also have to make sure you know there's a lot of you know frightening elements of this if you're a [31:07] developer because when are we going to do this you know they they they are on development schedule we're on a public [31:14] schedule and we're working with the county and so how do we make this all work this is what I think about from a [31:20] feasibility perspective bill is right that the developers need to spend the [31:25] money in front of their developments but you can't ask him to do it multiple times right so how do we how do we [31:32] manage that and I think that is part of the discussion depending on when this happens how much are they investing in [31:37] their landscape their you know do we do we kind of temper that if we know a year later we're going to be doing this th [31:44] those are the details but but they've been very cooperative and when we had the brainstorming session on Friday it [31:50] was so fun right to have the Terry and Jake from who are doing the landscape [31:55] design on both sides of the street um to have them in and just brainstorm what [32:00] could happen and I think they started really seeing what Michael and I and Brad have been talking about uh and then [32:07] they got excited and said oh you know we could do this and that's that's where this will really get special when we [32:12] start tying those designs together well you teed up the question for me uh timing um do we know how close [32:22] I know we're threading the needle on this as well how close we can get it to the developments [32:29] we haven't really had that discussion with the county or or anything like that no thank you we're just trying to make [32:35] sure that it will work you know because it we're just realistic enough to know [32:40] we're not it probably isn't going to be precise with multiple buildings and when are they going and all of that um but [32:47] just trying to manage those kind of elements and make sure it can work thank [32:52] you um commissioner rer um thank you and I appreciate app um [32:59] knowing that that information will be coming the next time we meet the other information I would like is and this is [33:05] the perfect image to be looking at but I would like to see what um an overhead [33:12] view of Centennial Lakes is between those bridges because that was supposed [33:17] to be the model and kind of make it feel Airy and open and I don't really have an accurate understanding you know when I [33:23] see that Gap um how that compares percentage wise in terms ter of open space and if we could go to the image [33:31] that shows the projection above top with the sort of pyramid like forms um I do [33:40] have some concerns and I know you you said this might not be the final element oh it definitely will not okay because [33:47] the idea of putting you know I think about how people have photographed his pyramids in front of the Lou and [33:53] sometimes they look very substantial and sometimes very ethereal just sort of vaporizing in space and to have [34:00] something like that on France Avenue seems a little odd so that I am concerned about that but um I think [34:10] it'll be really helpful to see how this lines up with Centennial AES I am [34:15] concerned about it feeling continuing to feel like a space that may be daunting to people and they might not want to [34:22] enter into it uh my other concern in this is that I I've had for a while and [34:27] this has to do with is this the right site which you're going to provide more information about but um I want to see a [34:34] larger image of the site because I want to know how people are going to access [34:40] it you know off of the bike trail so I want to have an image that shows that I want to have an image that shows how [34:46] people coming from the north are going to be able to take advantage of it and I think this is something we tend to just [34:53] focus in on the single plot or the single site and that is so [34:58] counterproductive for understanding especially when we're talking about a project that is the you know arguably [35:05] something that is there for the community as a whole um finally I remember and this you know thank you [35:12] taxpayer AB for sending me to the league of Minnesota City's meeting where I sat and listened to all of the grant [35:20] applications and the sources that went into getting a bridge to its final stage [35:27] and I think the session I was in we learned that it took seven years to launch it and I I [35:33] really want to underscore that it is so important to look at all of this you [35:39] know pots of money that are out there so that this is not a you know Tiff [35:46] shouldered expense and so there's there's that um in terms of [35:53] process I don't know you know when we signed on for the $80,000 [35:58] um for the initial study you know this is going to end up being a multi-million [36:03] dollar project and so I don't know if there's ever a point where it it goes I mean your firm has done a lot of work [36:10] but you know how does that play in so that's a a question that I've got um and [36:16] I need to go back and look at that meeting where we approved the initial study so anyway those are the things [36:22] that I'm thinking about right now and in part I'm thinking about the pedestrian bridge across 62 [36:28] where we had three different developers who came forward with a plan and then we [36:34] were able to look and select and I think this has a lot of Merit um but financing [36:41] is something that I'm concerned about a higher view is something that I'd like to see and then maybe from staff more [36:48] information about other sources of funding and the process that we're going to use if we are moving forward and so I [36:55] think that's all I have thank you thank [37:01] you for me personally this is really a wonderful update [Music] [37:06] um the I think it's slide five which is the the um open air concept you know i' [37:14] I've loved those uh yeah Slide Five the way those bridges uh and the space [37:20] interact over on York Avenue with each other I think member rer just made that point and so to uh to understand that uh [37:27] and we had that goal in mind when we started talking about getting across France Avenue uh between the two new uh [37:33] developments uh but to understand what the County's concerns are and the limitations we have then inherently in [37:40] being able to do this how could we do something that uh [37:45] is both uh capturing the notion of getting people safely across France Avenue uh and also make sure that it's [37:52] something that people want to use as Point has been made uh and something that's really quite appealing to people [37:59] and I think that slide 19 really captures some nice uh elements of it as [38:05] you as you look from I think it's from west to east um or yeah looking west to east [38:13] uh what I would what I would sense is that it's basically a mirror image of what You' see looking east to west and [38:20] you get that feeling of openness and spaciousness you can see what's what's on the other side you can see how things [38:25] open up you can see the staircases you can see people moving uh you've got an elegant sort of spacer moving through uh [38:32] that yet to be designed you've got light coming in from above that could probably serve a dual function of natur capturing [38:40] natural light during the day but also being some kind of a lighting feature in the evening whatever the whatever the [38:45] design is above France Avenue I think one of the most significant things you've done though is to get the county to cooperate at some level here uh and [38:54] that's that's pretty remarkable because over the years that I've been on the council have the sense that Hanan County [39:00] engineering department is mostly interested in throughput and and we're interested in [39:05] that too but we're in you know but if we're slowing people down with fewer Lanes uh and making it a more pleasant [39:11] experience to go down that street uh that's an important consideration too I think from a city standpoint it's all [39:17] part of the the building a better aesthetic for your town uh through its landscape design uh and its [39:23] functionality so you're you're doing a good job so far I think of capturing both Form and Function so thanks so one [39:31] thing you caused me to think about is if in this diagram on the right side um [39:36] that that right Northbound right turn lane into the right now into the B Le [39:41] development um we are proposing of shortening that right turn lane because [39:47] that gets us you know 12 14 ft more Park and less pavement and and at 14 less [39:56] feet you have to walk under under this right so that's a big deal and that one they're being they're not saying no [40:03] they're not saying yes but I feel like they're leaning toward this could work [40:08] so those are just the a lot of details going on still well Brad thanks for your work too I think uh it's nice to have [40:15] the engineering aspect of it on that particular turn the B Lees I think those of us that regularly TR uh travel France [40:22] Avenue realize that there's there aren't that many people turning in there and people that are turning in there can get [40:28] in there quickly and so shortening it up shouldn't be I think significant [40:34] concession on the part of the county but that's that's me uh commissioner and I'm going to go back to one other topic oh [40:40] go ahead go ahead I was just going to finish up on the financing side so we're going to have a discussion [40:46] here uh in a few minutes about actually it's always the beginning [40:51] of a of a process do we want to look at at Tiff on a particular project uh do we [40:57] want to make that inquiry that exploration that sort of front-end view [41:02] uh of something and I feel the same way here about about this conversation [41:08] around what are the potential sources of funding and I know that from working on Transportation matters federally there's [41:14] some significant amounts of uh there a lot of different pots of funding out there and in fact I I sent a letter [41:20] around that talks about all those different pots of funding uh but I wouldn't rule out a particular source of [41:26] funding just because uh it you know we haven't analyzed and we haven't analyzed it yet until we analyze it carefully and [41:32] that would include the Tiff it would be related potentially to this project on [41:38] the east side uh but we're a long way from anywhere on making any kind of a decision on that uh but I just want to [41:45] keep all doors open as we be begin this conversation about a how if it's [41:50] feasible and B how do we Finance it if it is feasible so commissioner um I so [41:56] just to piggyback on that the reason I ask a question is sometimes I think we [42:02] kind of get out of sequence and this is kind of what it feels like and I'll probably make this comment [42:07] again in a few minutes you um give us this Grand idea this looks fabulous [42:16] right and then we go through and we refine developments we all add things to [42:23] it and then you come in and you say well we can't can't build that though unless [42:28] we have whatever $20 million in Tiff and then we have that conversation and so I [42:35] appreciate you being open and willing to be able to say yeah this thing right now [42:42] is probably going to be somewhere between $ 15 and $20 million because I think that kind of sets a frame for us [42:49] to be thinking about all right if that's the ballpark we're in maybe some of the [42:55] things we might be asking for we shouldn't because we can't afford it [43:01] and so at least it puts a little bit of a constraint on the way that we are thinking about and adding to the design [43:08] process so I definitely appreciate that um and then I do think uh to mayor's [43:14] point being open to other ways of funding which is not the designer or the [43:22] engineer's issue um is definitely um uh something that I would like to to see us [43:27] lean into and so all of that being said actually like something big and iconic [43:32] in the middle of France like those pyramids um because I think it would be [43:38] um I think in and of itself whatever is there could also be a draw whether it's [43:44] a pyramid or something else um could be a draw um for people in the con [43:50] compounds of well can we afford something like that so thank you all right right thank thank you for [43:57] being here this morning gentlemen Mr chair yes can I ask what [44:03] how are we doing on time do we have any do we have a hard stop at 9 [44:08] o'clock I've got a I've got a a virtual meeting at 9:30 so I I just need 15 [44:15] minutes to get where I need to be so maybe a hard stop at 9:15 for me I don't know everybody else's schedule okay all [44:22] right thanks okay and I know we're just at the beginning of these conversations and they're going to be continued in the [44:28] middle of August so we got a little bit of latitude [44:33] here going to bring Mr nondorf back up now he's going to move on to another [44:47] topic yes moving on to the main topic for this morning uh like to give an [44:52] overview of the staff evaluation and recommendation uh on the use of tax [44:59] increment financing to help redevelop the site at 7235 France Avenue uh [45:04] currently the Macy's furniture gallery [45:10] location but I'll run through this at a high level the packet includes um nearly 40 slides of renderings and background [45:18] information I'm not going to go through all that but they're there for questions just so you know that it's [45:25] available I have a question right now was this was this in our packet [45:31] yes I don't remember seeing [45:38] it uh it was uploaded to the packet y yep uh so the site uh 7235 shown in [45:44] Black here um obviously in a Dina the red line shows the School District [45:50] boundary this that's often times a question with uh with Tiff so the property is in the Richfield School [45:55] District the school district is right across the street in this case current conditions 8 Acre Site uh [46:03] originally the gravel and sand mining operation um that that existed there for several decades until 1977 when the [46:10] existing building was constructed we have been we have inspected the building it has been deemed to be qualified per [46:17] state statute as a substandard building which starts the whole conversation of of Tiff before you can even start [46:23] looking into it you have to make sure that you qualify per state statute and we have have done that uh Enclave [46:29] development has a site under contract uh to purchase they've had a purchase contract with Macy's real estate for [46:36] more than a year and a half now as they've been working on this proposal and they've partnered with the folks at [46:41] lifestyle communities to help develop one of the parcels that Southwest parcel [46:47] um so I might use our names interchangeably but we've been working quite a bit and have had many [46:52] conversations with both Patrick Brahma and Ben louser at those respective companies they've been very um uh open [47:00] to sharing their information to our prodding and pushing and asking how the financials work and and how the overall [47:07] structure is set up uh they of course are here with us this morning and available for any questions after my [47:14] presentation so the preliminary site plan should should look very familiar to you uh this was the most recently [47:20] approved site plan um and as I mentioned the developer first came to us back in early 202 three back in March um uh with [47:29] a sketch plan submitt and at that time they did make us aware that due to the lack of infrastructure on the site due [47:36] to some of those old soil conditions um that the the use of Tiff is probably going to be necessary just to get the [47:43] conversation going so that that was known as staff and I think as the proposal worked its way through the [47:49] Planning Commission and Council that was also mentioned um so the most recently [47:55] the Planning Commission did recommend that the site plan be approved back in May as a city council uh you granted a [48:02] preliminary resoning with a couple questions to be clean up and final and for the last several months um since [48:08] late March we've been working in Earnest with the developers to help understand their financal their financials to help [48:15] and better understand uh what the what the financial gap is what their sources [48:20] are why is a gap created is there a way to to do it any any differently um and [48:26] we've had a lot of those conversations that I'll summarize here today we got renderings of the buildings um I wanted [48:33] to put this slide up It's always important to remember that when a developer comes in uh to the city [48:38] council and the HRA um they need um they need a more than a single approval so [48:47] for this particular site the the first thing they need is property ownership that's frankly the toughest thing to do [48:52] in a Dina is find a piece of property that's available for sale so they they've got that um box checked the [48:59] second is zoning entitlement um as we know a lot of our properties are are Zone um the zoning designations go back [49:06] Generations um so that process is in play they've got their preliminary as I mentioned and they're working their way [49:12] towards final and then comes a financing um they need to get their equity on board they need to get their [49:18] construction debt on board uh and they've been doing that um to our satisfaction we've had several [49:23] conversations about their Equity investors the the depth of of their Equity um the ability to actually [49:31] Finance this we've seen some projects that are not able to get financing so that's been a topic of much conversation [49:37] amongst the group um of course they don't have anything solid in place today [49:42] until they actually get their final resoning they won't even have a chance to get solid financing but staff is [49:48] certainly satisfied that those pieces will come together um as this proposal Works its way through the [49:55] system um one thing we have confirmed as well is the offers um from Equity [50:00] investors and from lenders is contingent upon the project uh providing [50:06] market-based returns and right now it does not due to all of the public infrastructure the [50:13] lack of roadways the lack of in of utilities the fact they they'll have to excavate pretty much the entire site [50:20] there is a gap and that's why we're here today to talk with with the with you as the HRA board about the use of Tiff to [50:27] help fill that Gap and that that to me is one thing that we've as a community have have done [50:33] as our policy for several generations to use Tiff to leverage that private investment in this case um the [50:41] developers are are preparing to invest nearly $300 million into our community [50:46] to build what's been um uh discussed and and and granted approval so far and to [50:52] deliver not just that investment but the public benefits that spill off from that and and for this project there's a a lot [50:58] of benefits that that have been evolving over the time um uh the current site [51:03] plan is different than the initial site plan it's and it it changes based on on comments and suggestions for improvement [51:11] um but a lot of the space will be available to the public both sidewalks [51:16] driveways roadways uh bike trails uh landscape areas seating areas public a [51:23] lot of different uh public benefits that would be achieved in fact uh close to [51:29] 50% of the site around 45 46% of the site would be covered by a public hement [51:35] that would Grant the the general public permanent access to that facility to use [51:41] those areas and enjoy those areas while the developer would be responsible to [51:46] finance them to build them to operate them to maintain them in perpetuity so [51:52] that uh is a pretty significant benefit the the other one tying off of what the [51:59] folks from lhb just presented it also creates this opportunity to do this underpass to extend this prominade feel [52:06] and and a more comfortable pedestrian experience from the existing prominade Park Westerly to the Cornelia [52:12] neighborhood not only does a site plan accommodate this it actually welcomes it um and from a financial perspectiv here [52:20] is the H we like to talk about the financial matters um we've set aside 25% [52:26] of any future increment from this property to help fund public improvements so if if there is a [52:33] decision in the future to go ahead with the underpass and the separated Crossing there uh we have revenue from this site [52:41] as well as revenue from the site to the west to help in that effort um that's pretty sign significant for a project of [52:47] this scale to set aside 25% of the future Revenue um uh that's that's quite [52:53] a boost of course affordable housing uh they're they're very uh happy to meet [52:58] our policy when it comes to affordable housing units that would be delivered as a as a combination of rental units and [53:05] ownership units um if this gets approved it would be the first time that that that that happens in one proposal to [53:11] have ownership and Rental uh shared parking is also something that they're happy to provide the the street level [53:18] parking spaces in each of the four buildings would be designated uh as [53:23] public parking so that um you don't have to hunt and find the the you know the [53:28] right spot for you if you're on the first floor in any of those buildings that's the right spot um and uh that's [53:35] something also that is recommended in our um design guidelines and our self-d [53:41] experience the developers are also uh willing and and eager to meet our sustainability policies um certify the [53:48] buildings per lead or the national Green Building standards um uh there's been a [53:54] lot of conversation about that in the Planning Commission and we also added a provision in our Tiff policy um that addresses who else [54:02] benefits more directly from this project so both developers are willing uh to satisfy that goal in in our Tiff policy [54:10] and identify targets for the the the number of people that can work on the [54:15] job site uh to make sure that the there's employment opportunities uh for people that are typically under under [54:22] represented in in the in the construction Fields women and people of color primarily they've also agreeable [54:28] to set targets um to set aside certain amount of the subcontracted work to go [54:34] to smaller businesses that are identified as either MBE or wbe firms um [54:39] now while these are targets they're not quotas um um so there's a lot of State a lot of nuances in the state law that of [54:45] course will will always navigate but we've done this on our last last couple Tiff projects and these developers are [54:51] also willing to do it but let's let's get to the financing that's why we're really here this [54:57] morning um so staff evaluates the financing um with the assistance of ERS [55:03] Associates so a lot of the numbers here are generated from Nick an Hut at Ellers Nick of course is available here with us [55:10] this morning um so my summary is kind of the shortened con uh concise version of [55:17] of all of Nick's generation but projects like this are truly transformational to the community the current site uh is [55:25] valued at about $12 million to the tax assessor it pays a tax bill every year [55:30] of nearly $350,000 that's a lot of money with this type of transformational change those [55:37] numbers will increase exponentially um where the future taxes [55:42] to be paid increased by a factor of 10 to $3.6 million um so a lot different than just [55:49] rehabbing the building or building a couple uh tearing the building down and doing something smaller scale couple [55:56] retail stores or something like that truly a transformational project the Tiff District would would last for 25 [56:03] years so when you look at at that increment about $3 million a year over [56:08] 25 years you're looking at about $68 million in total taxes [56:14] collected now um that's the cumulative amount when it comes to the financing we [56:19] always look at at the present value of that and the present value of that cash flow is about $30 million so when I [56:26] mentioned that we've set aside about 25% of all the tax increment to help fund [56:31] public improvements it's 25% of $30 million so I mean it's a big it's a big [56:38] dollar amount to help finance things that the city might [56:43] like I added this slide to to look a little bit more in depth about the tax [56:48] dollars and where they go today where they would go when the Tiff district is created and then where the tax dollars [56:55] go when the Tiff if District expires um and in in Redevelopment Finance it's the [57:00] long game right I'm not so I'm not so focused on what happens tomorrow I'm [57:05] more concerned about what happens 10 years down the road 20 years down the road because that's the permanent change [57:11] for the community so I'll I'll focus on this just for a little bit um I appreciate your patience on this um as [57:18] well so today the $350,000 uh uh tax bill um some goes to [57:25] the city this School the county of course but on Commercial sites such as this about 50% of those taxes go outside [57:33] of AD they go into the fiscal disparities pool and they go to the state of [57:38] Minnesota that's tax policy in Minnesota we're not going to change it it's not right or wrong it's good or bad it's not [57:45] good or bad but that's how it is half of the taxes paid on the site never even touch a [57:51] Dina when we create a tiff District uh and the developer builds a project [57:56] obviously that their tax bill goes up dramatically and with Tiff remember there's the base amount that's frozen [58:04] and then there's the increment so a couple examples of of of how that actually plays out so if you look at the [58:10] city and the county on the top 45,000 and 57,000 that's the base amount it it [58:16] stays about flat they're still paying their share but it's uh it's not uh it's [58:21] not adjusted the school district is adjusted so even with the ti District in [58:26] place the amount of tax dollars that would be redistributed to the schools increased from 62,000 to over [58:35] 400,000 um the state of Minnesota goes up a little bit the fiscal disparities pool goes up a little bit but the [58:41] biggest chunk of dollars during the active years of the Tiff District 2.7 [58:47] million that's the increment that stays within to help reimburse the developer [58:52] for all the public benefits we ask them to build for us as well as any public improvements like an underpass or [58:58] anything else that's that's relevant um that the city would choose to build so for the active years that's about 25 [59:05] years not a short period of time but uh during that time uh you know most of the [59:11] taxing entities are either neutral or increase the tax collection um but the [59:17] the biggest amount does stay within the site and then let's let's look at post hiff it's the long game it's why we look [59:24] at some of these big transfer AAL projects in in AA year 26 the the Tiff district is [59:31] finished all the tax base is still there you still have buildings they're they're 20 some years old but they're still [59:37] solid buildings that um are going to be on the tax rols for a while this is where it gets really interesting so the [59:44] tax collection by the city increases from 45,000 to almost [59:50] 900,000 the county similar similar scale the school district more than doubles [59:55] the State the uh fiscal disparities the smaller taxing agencies they all go up [1:00:01] because the money doesn't need to go into the Tiff District any longer so this is a very simplistic um comparison [1:00:08] um we did not adjust for inflation we made a lot of assumptions like every taxing agency just does the same thing [1:00:15] and they don't jockey their numbers and we all know that nothing's static right there's always change there's always [1:00:21] going to be inflation but I wanted to provide a quick overview um of of how Tiff Works before during and after um [1:00:29] because I think it's essential to have that Long Long View when we look at these proposals so we did confirm um in the [1:00:36] first step of our evaluation that there is revenue generated and enough to actually make a difference we then um [1:00:42] start looking at the developers numbers at their at their uh construction numbers and their performers um not [1:00:49] going to go through this in detail but um in each of the parcels the Northwest parcel uh is about 56 million the East [1:00:57] Parcels that those are the two buildings right on the prominade that's just shy of $150 million investment and then the [1:01:04] condominium building on the southwest corner about $95 million as as I mentioned we have [1:01:11] confirmed that there are a combination of uh internal and external Equity investors that are ready to to invest in [1:01:18] this project as if the Pieces come together and also we've received letters from Bank banking institutions and [1:01:25] mortgage lenders that are interested in the project assuming the Pieces come [1:01:31] together when it looked when we look at at Tiff for any specific project we also [1:01:36] look to confirm um The Gap and to make sure that there's enough public benefit to justify Tiff and so that's what this [1:01:43] chart shows now there's always a big difference state law would recognize [1:01:48] over a hundred million as Tiff qualified a dino policy is a lot different um we [1:01:55] look at a much smaller subset than the state law would would allow so in this case we recognize about $26.8 [1:02:02] million uh as direct costs that provide a public benefit to the community um [1:02:08] that would be delivered by this project now we're not recommending that we pledge $26 million I'm just saying that [1:02:15] that's the public benefit that we've uh calculated we actually size the Tiff [1:02:21] recommendation based on their need we want to fill the Gap to make the project du and finance [1:02:28] financeable so there's an there's a a sheet like this for each of the three phases I'll just go through one as the [1:02:33] example and again this is a very simplification uh of the numbers um if [1:02:39] you want to get in more detail Nick would be happy to to to bend your ear and answer questions about that but when [1:02:45] you look at the operational expenses to see does this project make sense financially you're looking at the at the [1:02:51] revenue stream the the gross income from rent um fees and Commercial rent you're [1:02:58] looking at the annual operating costs management paying their taxes paying their light bill everything else you um [1:03:07] you you then look at you compare those two or subtract the expenses from the revenue to get your net operating cost [1:03:13] and you find that the return based uh based on just expenses and revenue is [1:03:21] about 5.51% below market so um that's not an acceptable return you can go down to US [1:03:28] bank today and get 5% so um Real Estate Investors with risk will will not settle [1:03:34] for a 5% return so that's where we've confirmed that a tiff supplement a tiff [1:03:39] reimbursement of part of the expenses would be necessary to actually secure [1:03:44] those equity and debt uh investors into this project so the conclusion is the same for each of the three Parcels [1:03:52] without Tiff support we don't think any of those three elements would be financially viable um we have [1:03:59] looked at them individually um uh we wanted to be precise just in case um you know maybe [1:04:06] one of them was a grand slam maybe the East Parcels they were make you know their Pro their returns were outrageous [1:04:13] we so we analyzed each of the three separately and confirmed the same thing that based on the projections that that [1:04:20] are available today in this Marketplace without Tiff none of these buildings would be financially feasible [1:04:27] and that's how we get to our recommendation so there's a term sheet in your packet that was prepared by by [1:04:32] dorsy and Whitney they provide our legal guidance on this um Jay lingren um helped prepare the term sheet and uh of [1:04:40] course Jay is here to answer any questions as well um so I'm not going to go through the whole term sheet there's [1:04:45] 40 some pages that's in your packet um but I will cover the high points and the [1:04:50] biggest point I want to make is that um in these Tiff recommendations [1:04:56] we in we make sure that the developer Bears the Financial Risk so it's it's [1:05:01] their risk to get the property under contract to line up the equity to line up the debt to get all the entitlements [1:05:07] and all that work that costs million Millions we're also recommending that the the developer pursue grants to see [1:05:14] if there's other ways to offset some of the costs on this project we think there's grants from deed met Council in [1:05:20] hennipin county that might be applicable they're competitive they no guarantee we're going to get them but we'd like [1:05:26] the developer to pursue them we're also presuming that that the developer finances each of these three [1:05:32] lots the Northwest the East and the Southwest independently so that means [1:05:38] that the equity investors and the mortgage lender might be different on all three projects we want to make sure [1:05:43] they've got the maximum flexibility to get the to get the best terms out there in the [1:05:49] marketplace uh We've also made sure that the developer um would be mandated to [1:05:54] issue public public easements upon completion um it's nice to have green green space but if there's not a legally [1:06:01] binding contract it's just pretty green space we want to make sure that it's public Green [1:06:08] Space um from the city perspective the obligations we would be expecting or recommending is that we give [1:06:15] consideration to establish a new 25-year Redevelopment Tiff district and that [1:06:21] upon completion we would we would uh plan to pledge Tiff notes pay as you go Tiff notes one for each of the three [1:06:28] projects so when they finish the project we would issue we would confirm the Gap [1:06:34] confirm the financing and then issue a note um that note would be payable from [1:06:40] property taxes collected from that one parcel so if they uh if they pay the the [1:06:46] property taxes that we project their note gets paid off uh if if they pay [1:06:52] less taxes go down in the future that's their risk they don't get paid off if they pay more taxes than we're [1:06:58] projecting they get paid off early and we're finished um so that's the typical Arrangement and that's a real [1:07:03] simplification of it um but we've set up a structure for for separate notes for each Parcels again wanted to reiterate [1:07:10] that we've sized each of these notes in the whole Tiff District Tiff District to ensure that there's about 205 at least [1:07:18] 25% of the tax increment would be available to the city to fund public [1:07:23] infrastructure like an underpass or other related improvements and the whole term sheet [1:07:28] again is based on the premise that the Financial Risk is born by the developer not by the city not by the [1:07:37] HRA we also have um General Provisions in the term sheet to look at look backs [1:07:42] and clawbacks um we still need to negotiate these based on on on on Final [1:07:47] construction numbers that we don't have yet but just I wanted to provide assurance that per our Tiff policy um we [1:07:54] will We the city will have the ability to peek at the developers numbers at [1:07:59] specific points in time in the future to make sure that they really do need the money um and if we find that for example [1:08:07] um let's say they sell the property at an outrageous project a profit it's the best sale in Generations well then they [1:08:15] didn't need Tiff and we'd have the ability to either terminate payments or claw back any of the money we gave to [1:08:21] them um so the developer doesn't like that part of the conversation that's been one of the toughest ones um but [1:08:28] that's our policy we and we will do that so just wanted to assure you that that would that that would be included and [1:08:34] then of course when it comes to the all the public spaces all those public benefits uh we envision a whole series [1:08:39] of binding easements that run with the land so whoever owns it at whatever [1:08:46] point in time in the future there'd be a binding Covenant or easement that gives the public rights and access to those [1:08:53] spaces the parking the sidewalk walks the trails the affordable housing [1:08:59] Etc um so to summarize um the as you know the projects wielded its way [1:09:04] through the Planning Commission and the sketch plan and the neighborhood meetings to city council uh We've confirmed that there's a number of [1:09:10] public benefits that people generally like to see on the site we've affirmed that there is sufficient revenue [1:09:16] generated um based on their scale of investment we've confirmed uh independently that there truly is the [1:09:23] financial gap in their budgets and we've also confirmed that the property does qualify as a blighted or [1:09:29] substandard building as we prepared the term sheet we've also kept an eye to state law [1:09:35] that's where Mr lingren comes in um to make sure we're following the law as well as our own internal policies and [1:09:41] that brings me to to our recommendation um and that's where where I recommend that we do move forward with the term [1:09:48] sheet uh consider the establishment of a new Tiff District that process takes two or three months my recommendation is [1:09:54] that we start that process doesn't mean that we're going to reach a successful conclusion but we need to start that [1:10:01] process just because it takes so long um recommend is to propose is is to approve [1:10:06] the term sheet as written recognizing the maximum Tiff contribution of about 22.8 million um delivered through a [1:10:15] bunch of of peso Tiff notes upon completion it's not a subsidy we this [1:10:21] would this would be an incentive if they perform if they deliver then they get the pgo notes if they fail to perform [1:10:28] they fail to deliver to to deliver they get nothing um and so I seek your authorization to move forward and [1:10:35] actually finish the legal the legal contracts um based on these terms uh that work will take another two two and [1:10:42] a half months as well um so we' like to get started on that if if this is something that you're agreeable to um uh [1:10:49] so that's where I'll turn it back to you Mr chair uh myself Jay lingren an Hut happy to [1:10:56] answer any questions the development team of uh Patrick Brahma and Ben Ben [1:11:02] Ben landhauser also here for any questions back to you Mr chair thank you Mr narf I'm going to bring Mr lingerin [1:11:08] up here and ask him to give us a little bit more um structure around what you [1:11:13] called the process which you touched on just generally so that we understand I think I think [1:11:21] commissioner Pierce I I think I know what directions he's heading in that is you know the council just made a [1:11:27] preliminary approval on the project but know you didn't have a final approval in front of us yet as a council and now [1:11:32] here we are as an HRA sitting here talking about uh potential use of [1:11:38] Tiff I personally know from having been involved in this that it's a lengthy process before you ever get to a [1:11:43] decision point but I think we should have a little bit more structure around what's involved in that process and and [1:11:49] where the public voice comes into play and where the voice of the Richfield School District comes into play those [1:11:55] those those types of things if that's enough guidance for you sure Mr chair commissioner good to see you um good to [1:12:01] be here today um without putting a calendar schedule on it what I would say [1:12:06] and I appreciate sort of the Rhythm if you will that we've developed over time [1:12:11] by asking you to look at a very detailed term sheet we developed a 40-page [1:12:17] document in order to say okay is the general direction going correctly this [1:12:23] is not a commitment at this point in time and there are you know several looks at this again before a final [1:12:30] decision is made um as Mr newor mentioned if you move toward a [1:12:38] establishment of ta tax increment District that takes time so you will be asked to consider calling the date for [1:12:45] the public hearing but that's not a commitment to establish the Tiff District yet our next step is to take [1:12:52] this 40-page document and make it into potentially a several hundred page document that includes all of the [1:12:59] details on how the easements would be structured and all the mechanics of [1:13:06] everything so and that would come back to you again and again remember that the [1:13:11] development team supplies the city the HRA with the resources the monetary [1:13:17] resources to develop that work and so that will take some time at the end of the day from a timing standpoint um you [1:13:24] know you know as as we not just look out for the city's interests but try to form [1:13:30] this partnership with the developer we have to look at what their reality is on real estate closings and in the term [1:13:36] sheet you have right now they have a schedule to close on the real estate [1:13:41] acquisition from Macy's between the middle of December and the end of March [1:13:47] and so that's sort of the realistic Marketplace timeline is that these [1:13:53] additional steps that we need to go through should wind up giving them Direction on whether or not you agree [1:14:00] this is the right strategy by sometime you know at least by early December so [1:14:06] does that help we go through this deliberation process of thinking about whether we'd want [1:14:11] to buy Tiff to this project and enter into an agreement there's there's an opportunity [1:14:18] in there I think multiple opportunities for the I'll call it the public voice to be heard not just our voices representing the public but uh the [1:14:25] public itself and then the various taxing entities that are potentially affected by this how does that [1:14:32] work so each of the taxing entities and and actually Mr an Hut knows this better [1:14:38] than I do so he might correct something but in general they're all given notice of it so they have the same kind of [1:14:44] numbers that Mr new andorf talked about they will hear about it um you have [1:14:50] public hearing involved for the actual establishment of the Tiff District the Redevelopment of agreement would need to [1:14:55] come before you for approval um you know in whatever form of public uh [1:15:01] participation you want so there at least those you know two very specific times [1:15:07] before you as the elected officials in the city um and that would occur over [1:15:13] the next several months few months so though we're entering potentially entering into a term sheet it's more [1:15:20] like a we might in the leg of business an Loi it's a of intent it's a [1:15:26] non-binding agreement but you have to have something to go forward from a structure from to see if if a deal could [1:15:32] be made somewhere down the line yeah and Mr chair maybe I should have said it more clearly what I like about the term [1:15:39] sheet is you're making no commitment now other than you know to participate and to communicate this is there's no [1:15:46] contractual obligation at all at this point and it's really the question of [1:15:52] you're giving your direction to your team to say okay those ideas in general are the right thing flush out the rest [1:15:58] of it so we can take another look that's really what we're asking for the recommendation not not really to approve [1:16:05] anything it's to say okay you're generally going in the right direction keep going Mr n andorf anything to add to [1:16:13] that the only thing to add is that um in addition to the formal process of the [1:16:18] Tiff evaluation by the school district and the county and of course the city we'll also post that to the better [1:16:24] together website that's been our common practice um we specifically set up this process to make sure that we that the [1:16:31] Tiff conversation comes um in the right sequence um and that there is public [1:16:36] opportunity to both be informed and to provide comments on that so um we [1:16:41] specifically staggered um the term sheet to come after the preliminary zoning approvals because for example if the [1:16:49] preliminary approval was declined we won't even be here this morning so we we [1:16:55] staggered it that way intentionally and the same with the final Redevelopment agreement they need to come in and get [1:17:01] their final zoning first and if that is granted then we would come in after the fact with the Redevelopment agreement um [1:17:08] but we have staggered it in a way that we can do two things at once um because the the entitlement process I mean it's [1:17:15] going on about 18 or 20 months already just to get through the zoning and so if we waited till everything was buttoned [1:17:22] up to start the Tiff conversation you're add in another 6 to n months to the [1:17:27] process um the real estate industry doesn't move that slowly so we have to be responsive to the fact that they're [1:17:34] moving out a at the market Pace attor commissioner Pierce who has some process [1:17:39] questions too I think uh thanks Mr Mayor um so thanks for that that overview um [1:17:48] the um I've got a couple of questions actually could you go to slide 21 before [1:17:54] before I talk about process so this is um I think this is the clearest [1:18:03] slide I have seen and it has something in here that we hear all the time that [1:18:09] you are articulating and kind of blowing through [1:18:14] um and I mean that in a positive way and so but I want you to kind of talk [1:18:19] through it and so here's the question so um you have a current tax [1:18:25] collection and that's that's an annual number correct and then your next column [1:18:32] talks about active tip District so that's once a project is done that's the [1:18:39] during the 25 year period right and so for the Richville School District we're [1:18:47] showing that currently it's 62,000 at the start of the Tiff District [1:18:53] it's almost a half a million dollars and then at the end of the Tiff District it [1:19:00] almost doubles again and so just talk about how that how that is is is that a [1:19:07] fair question it it is a fair question so um I'll talk in generalities and then [1:19:13] I'll ask Nick to get into a little bit more detail um but in general um I think [1:19:20] I would guess that in every state in America when Tiff comes up the one of the biggest comp complaints is you're [1:19:26] stealing textbooks from my kids you're stealing computers from the school kids over the 50 plus years that Tiff has [1:19:33] been used used in Minnesota the state legislation that governs Tiff is changed [1:19:38] virtually every year there's always something tweaked in there and a lot of the uh adjustments have been with an eye [1:19:46] to that concern about are you hurting the school district so there's a whole flurry of um of legislation that's been [1:19:55] around for quite some time and gets modified to counteract that concern um [1:20:01] and I'll ask Nick to speak a little bit about about why it changes for the for the school district market value versus [1:20:06] tax capacity value and get into the weeds a little bit more thank you uh Commissioners uh Nick [1:20:14] an Hut with Ellers and Associates financial advisers to the city and the HRA um and I prepared uh the numbers for [1:20:22] this slide um perhaps in a little bit more conv Ed sense then Bill simplified and made it much easier to [1:20:28] swallow um the simple fact relies on that tax increment does not uh [1:20:34] statutorily capture all of the levies that are adopted by various bodies uh [1:20:40] when a tip district is established the base value or the amount that the [1:20:45] property is contributing to your tax base is frozen and will continue to provide funding just as it does uh [1:20:53] before the Tiff district is established it continues to provide that same tax capacity throughout the life of the Tiff [1:20:59] District it also does not capture what's called a market a referendum market [1:21:04] value uh tax base and that is specifically impactful to the school districts because they have several [1:21:11] levies uh that fund their programs that are based on that referendum market [1:21:16] value within the community so when a new project in a tiff District comes forward it has tax capacity that comes onto the [1:21:24] system system not all of it gets captured uh for purposes of that their referendum Market values continue to [1:21:30] flow and increase um I would put a caveat that it doesn't mean necessarily [1:21:36] that the school district is going to get extra budgetary dollars it just means that this property now is going to be [1:21:43] contributing much more than it was in the past lowering everyone else's tax bills throughout that jurisdiction um [1:21:50] the school district and I hope that we'll get into this in a discussion with the HR in the future um they have other [1:21:57] mechanisms that might constrain their ability to actually increase their budgets primarily [1:22:02] enrollment um and so it doesn't mean that they're going to get extra money but it does mean that this property is [1:22:08] going to be contributing way more than it was in the past and then the rest of their tax base needs to contribute less [1:22:16] um also the state of Minnesota fiscal disparity pools those are not captured within the Tiff District so those [1:22:22] revenues uh continue to fund the those programs and the way that they're utilized and then at the end of the day [1:22:28] once everything uh is desertified whether that's 25 years from now or 20 [1:22:33] if it's earlier um all of that tax base comes on to the regular uh tax capacity [1:22:39] roles and then helps contribute to the levies that are adopted at that point in time um I think that addresses your [1:22:47] question but I'll be happy to dive into more detail um I I would at at a later [1:22:52] date want to dive into that a little a little bit more um I definitely understand you're saying there's a [1:22:58] difference between what a um What expenses a school district may need from [1:23:05] a budgetary standpoint and what's available that's kind of how I hear you [1:23:11] describing that um and so this project would contribute more to what's [1:23:16] potentially available but then the district would look at well how much do we actually need to spend from a [1:23:21] budgetary standpoint um so I definitely understand that but I would like to to dive in into [1:23:27] that a little bit more um at a future date um and then just briefly since [1:23:33] we've got a I think we got a hard stop oh sorry just very quickly Mr chair members of the commission that date is [1:23:39] going to be August 15th we've uh Mr new andorf and I had some discussions with uh with Ellers staff they're putting [1:23:46] together a presentation for us for our h meeting on that morning uh I've already [1:23:51] invited the school superintendents to join us that day so we can all kind of hear the same thing at the same time [1:23:57] thank you U thank you manager Neil um and then just briefly on a the process [1:24:02] standpoint I I started uh talking about that earlier this morning um I I like [1:24:10] the time frame that we kind of just discussed [1:24:15] um and I don't know who to credit this to U I'm sure manager Neil will tell me [1:24:21] who we should give the kudos to but I actually like the fact that we had [1:24:27] developer come in to talk about how to connect these sites um we had the [1:24:33] developer of the 7200 they were in the back to kind of hear some of that and [1:24:39] now we've and we also have the Macy site and so you can kind of step back and [1:24:46] imagine the entire piece although they're all separate projects um I I [1:24:52] think that that does ADD some Credence to um how we talk about [1:25:00] public benefit more broadly because you can kind of step back and see all of that and imagine um what that potential [1:25:07] could be um and but because of that I do like the idea of thinking I was I can't [1:25:14] remember who said this but December to March that that's a that I think that [1:25:22] gives us more time than we probably need need to just make sure we can tick the [1:25:27] boxes on all of these projects before um making a decision on U Tiff um and then [1:25:34] the other question uh comment I'll make just in our notes um saying that dorsy Whitney and [1:25:43] Ellers were prepare you're asking us to prepare a tiff [1:25:49] Redevelopment um I don't know if I like the [1:25:54] the word prepare but I understand that you've got a 40-page document that you [1:26:00] need to do a lot more due diligence with to be able to actually bring back to us [1:26:06] so that we can ask even deeper questions about what's in there and how it all gets um allocated and what have you um [1:26:14] and so I think that that makes sense um in general I um I I my preference would [1:26:23] be um that we understand way up front um [1:26:29] just some relative idea of how much Public Funding we might need for a particular project um as and I think [1:26:37] it's unfair to the developer we go so far down the road in terms of sketch [1:26:43] plan review with the Planning Commission and we do preliminary approvals and um we get pretty far down the road before [1:26:51] we have some sketch out of what we think the public benefit might be and in [1:26:57] future I'd like for us to think about how we can adjust that just uh a little [1:27:02] bit um but I do like uh thank you um Mr [1:27:08] lingam for coming up and and kind of talking through that process that's it yeah commissioner let [1:27:14] me ask you a quick question uh we on the word prepare I was thinking about that as you mentioned that and wondering if [1:27:20] the language uh if we did pass motion that we would authorize staff to engage [1:27:26] dorsing whitne ERS to draft a proposed form of Tiff Redevelopment agreement M [1:27:34] that if that if that language is something that creates more comfort for you around yeah of the word prep use of [1:27:42] the word prepare yeah anyway uh commissioner Jackson then [1:27:47] commissioner rer yes thank you Mr chair well it's 901 I have two pages of [1:27:53] questions about this term sheet and then as we're talking I have questions about our assessment process this is could [1:28:00] probably be a 45 minute conversation so I don't know I'm very frustrated right [1:28:05] now extremely frustrated so I don't know how to go about getting answers to my [1:28:10] question some of these terms I really disagree with so I'm not willing to vote Yes today um so I I don't know what to [1:28:20] do we don't have time to to get my list talk about that um is there any reason [1:28:25] this can't be held over to the 15th of August for further [1:28:30] discussion uh there's no major uh reason I think [1:28:37] that can work the the um I I'm aware the developer has some deadlines to meet one [1:28:45] of the deadlines is this Friday um is my understanding um uh maybe that can get [1:28:50] changed on his on his calendar uh I'm not certain but a two-e delay to the [1:28:56] city is not a problem to the developer it'll probably be expensive but to the city [1:29:02] that's that's agreeable to the city because I I will say as this is written [1:29:08] I'm going to vote no so I'm going to have to see some changes I have some big questions about the but four test um it [1:29:15] seems like complying with the Southdale guidelines is the butt for test to uh [1:29:21] the the way I read this so I'm I'm just going to give you the general questions I've got the way I read it is that the [1:29:27] subdivision of the land and putting those um connector spaces whether there streets or paths is very much of what [1:29:35] the butt four what it what triggers the butt four test for Tiff and I'm very concerned that when we went through the [1:29:42] Southdale process and the land use side of this oh this will pay for itself will [1:29:48] allow this bigger Redevelopment um there's no step backs at the higher levels on these buildings [1:29:54] that's something that is encouraged in the Southdale guidelines it's more profitable for the developer to not have [1:30:00] the step backs and yet we're still seeing that this isn't going to pay for itself I I'm really concerned about this [1:30:09] that what we have put forth as land use um terms seem to automatically trigger [1:30:15] Tiff I'm concerned about the parking um I think if you're going to have shops [1:30:20] you're going to need parking and to say that that's public is nice but the [1:30:26] Public's going to be coming to go to the shops anyways and so I I I don't know [1:30:32] how that's any different from the private lot in the South to in the property to the South they have shops [1:30:39] they have parking for their shops I can go there I'm a member of the public I park and I shop these are going to be [1:30:45] parking spots I'm going to go there I'm going to park and I'm going to shop I don't I don't see why that makes it [1:30:52] extra special that we should fund it um I don't see anything in here about [1:30:57] the language we've talked about with complying with labor standards um I very much want to see that in in any document [1:31:04] that we go forward with um the assessment um if we're paying taxes or [1:31:11] if if the property is paying taxes based on a $12 million assessment but this property probably sold for close to [1:31:17] double that why does our assessment so far below what the market value of this [1:31:23] proper property is and it's the same with the Kevin Keys site right you look at the assessment and what they're offering for it in the market it's you [1:31:30] know double so I don't understand how our assessment process works um when these sites come up for sale it doesn't [1:31:37] seem fair to the taxpayers um and like I said there are just some [1:31:43] specific things um in here that um I have questions about how the some of the [1:31:50] affordable housing things work the fix versus floating how it works works in the Condominiums there's no detail on [1:31:56] how that's going to remain um affordable so I can send you my list of questions but they're long and some of them are [1:32:02] very detailed but some of them are big policy questions that I'm really struggling with so thank you Mr [1:32:10] chair it seems to me that [1:32:16] um there's a there should be a conversation I won't call it necessarily [1:32:23] a private ation but I think a staff conversation with um any commissioner that has any [1:32:30] concerns about the term sheet and ni still have had time to react to that and [1:32:35] have those conversations so that when we came to a public setting things were more streamlined and effective is what [1:32:42] point you're getting at I think too um you were you were going to say something in member yeah I I was just [1:32:49] going to um PE back on member Jackson [1:32:54] I think she did a wonderful job of kind of talking through what I term there are [1:33:02] some policy challenges there's some design challenges as well that you [1:33:08] describe that impact what would be or could be in a term sheet and so I I just think that is [1:33:16] a a a a really good example of why from a process standpoint I think we do need [1:33:23] to take the time to go through that um I you could send your questions which you [1:33:29] probably should but I think we would all benefit from hearing and seeing some of [1:33:35] that um as well so I don't necessarily think we should do it from a private standpoint um we should hear those [1:33:42] answers in a um in a public forum and I didn't go through my list of questions [1:33:49] um either um and so I think it I think it just under scores the need to make [1:33:55] sure we have a u the time to go through all of that that's it yeah when I said a [1:34:03] staff-driven conversation between the commissioner and the staff I was assuming was that when it came into the [1:34:10] full conversation we'd we'd have the benefit of all of those questions being answered in a public manner so we have [1:34:17] transparency member rer commissioner rer um I share um commissioner Jackson's [1:34:23] frustration and for me uh because we're running out of time I'm going to focus on attachment a the project site plan [1:34:30] and um while I am sympathetic to the deadlines of the developer I do want to [1:34:36] underscore that it was me raising a concern about the France Avenue access [1:34:44] from the sidewalk not being ADA Compliant and for that to be something [1:34:49] that and I did it as a city council person for that to be something that a city council person has to raise at a [1:34:57] time when we are under doj investigation for not being ADA Compliant possibly not [1:35:04] being ADA Compliant on the Grand View pedestrian bridge is just to me [1:35:09] mindboggling and so that I think was a bump in the road that the developer [1:35:15] should not have placed there the other thing is as you go back and you look at [1:35:20] how these plans are being presented that dog park was supposed to be open space [1:35:25] it becomes a dog park very late in the game and I know that when we talked [1:35:31] about the preliminary resoning there wasn't the word preliminary in front of the site plan [1:35:39] and so now we have in this document that you want us to push forward a site plan [1:35:46] that does not appear to have ADA compliance along France Avenue that has a dog park there were I believe eight [1:35:52] things that we were were concerned about when we approved that preliminary [1:35:58] rezoning and I don't see those reflected in the information that is going to go [1:36:04] out in this Tiff um proposal so I have a really big [1:36:12] problem with that and I think this Cycles back to the very initial concerns that were raised by member pierce the [1:36:19] sequence of events we don't have the final project plan you know so what are [1:36:24] we doing here and I know we did get a you can just kind of go back and sort of this infinity loop of explaining and all [1:36:31] of that but I don't think it's fair to the public for us to move this forward [1:36:37] and the other thing that I am concerned about in terms of process this came out on Monday and it I you know I looked at [1:36:45] the packet and and this is in the packet so uh my apologies for raising that as a [1:36:51] question but when I looked I only saw the term sheet and that could have been me being disrupted by my dog who knows what but [1:36:59] um so I want to apologize to staff for raising that concern it it does not appear to have been legitimate but these [1:37:05] other things you know really we need to look at these and then we were concerned about a wind study and we're talking [1:37:12] about a a tiff investment that's going to last 25 years for architecture 75% of [1:37:17] it and I've learned the term stick construction it's not concrete uh you [1:37:23] know when you you think about these seven story buildings and all the wind over a period of over a quarter of a [1:37:28] century what exactly are we going to have at the end of that period I'm also trying to wrestle with the idea of [1:37:35] blighted property the Macy's furniture stores an upscale furniture store and I know has repeatedly been referred to as [1:37:42] a bunker I think it is a remarkable piece of architecture from that era when [1:37:48] Earth reinforcement was something that people did and when you walk into that Macy's Furniture Store it's certainly [1:37:53] does not feel like blighted property so those are my concerns and I as with my [1:37:59] colleague I can't see pushing this forward thank [1:38:08] you thank you I I appreciate the conversation and the queries from my [1:38:14] colleagues um but I just want to reiterate I think that that's like the phase of the process that we're in um [1:38:20] and I do I do hear um commissioner pierced uh in there may be some [1:38:26] opportunities that we have as a city to begin to reorder some of these things more holistically so that we can have [1:38:32] insight into it earlier on but I just want to remind everyone that we're on like phase one of of many phases and I I [1:38:39] think that that's exactly what folks were looking for right are what are our concerns what things do we want to see [1:38:45] tweaked so I think that this was valuable discussion and I I hope that it's just enough to to bring forward um [1:38:52] there are no kind of additional components but just want to appreciate all of the work that's gone into it up until this point um and know that we [1:38:59] will iterate and have many many many many more conversations about this project and Tiff financing in particular [1:39:07] thank you you know though the [1:39:12] um proposed uh term sheet is a non-binding [1:39:19] agreement fact that commissioner Jackson and commissioner pce has mentioned as well concerns about some of the elements [1:39:24] of it um you want to make sure that the [1:39:30] structure of the proposed term sheet uh matches up you know because [1:39:37] when you get into discussions about a proposed agreement people offer reference back to [1:39:43] well it's not it's not in the LOI or it's in the LOI this way you know and U [1:39:49] and so these concerns that she hasn't been able to articulate because of the short because of the time frame involved [1:39:57] are probably things that we do need to talk about before we do have a term sheet the the term sheet reflects what [1:40:04] we think a potential deal Downstream fleshed out with more skin on the bone [1:40:09] if you will would look like but those those key elements even though it's non-binding I think are really [1:40:15] beneficial to have in a in so how do we deal with that issue I don't know what [1:40:20] kind of situation with a developer but you can tell from the uh tenor of the conversation up here that it's a [1:40:28] Something That We're uncomfortable you know some of us are uncomfortable moving forward with this morning [1:40:33] and we have a more thorough conversation about the elements of least of the term sheet some of the other things that [1:40:38] we've talked about I think can be dealt with as member commissioner agner says Downstream because because of the [1:40:44] non-binding nature of this and there will be elements that come into it and there could be things that we we make a [1:40:50] decision on as a council that relate to the final development plan site plan that caused certain things to be altered [1:40:56] here as well so um the question is can we wait till the middle of August to [1:41:02] have this conversation again or have a special meeting in couple weeks I guess [1:41:08] said that is a couple weeks we're at the end of the month right we um if I could if I could [1:41:15] respond to a couple of those items uh so we we have the next scheduled meeting on August 15th um we could we could set [1:41:24] that up as a joint meeting to finish this conversation about the term sheet take action if you're so inclined and [1:41:30] still have half the meeting to talk about tiff with the school folks and then we can push down the road a [1:41:35] conversation about the underpass to get I think we had a lot of discussion this morning so maybe you got your questions answered on that one today um but we can [1:41:42] push that down the road um uh uh I don't want to I don't want to [1:41:48] speak for the developer um they would prefer an answer sooner than later but [1:41:54] from a city HRA process perspective pushing it down the road a couple weeks is no problem so if that's your [1:42:00] inclination that's fine um and the term sheet itself um we strived not to get [1:42:06] into matters of zoning or site plan and it was staff was tempted on many [1:42:12] occasions to to do that but we really try to keep the HRA operating in the lane of financing and leave the planning [1:42:19] zoning site plan review to the city council so uh uh how we typically do [1:42:26] these uh Tiff packets is the term sheet just includes the most recently approved [1:42:31] site plan we just drop it in there the actual Redevelopment agreement the the the legal contract that's binding if we [1:42:38] get to that point um would have the final site plan as approved in in a [1:42:44] couple weeks or a couple months so um we intentionally did not get into details of where's the dog park and what's the [1:42:51] slope of the ramp and that like that was we intentionally omitted those areas um [1:42:56] but substantive questions or concerns I'm happy to talk on those one-on-one or as a group um we're certainly uh able to [1:43:04] revise that term sheet um always be aware that that a term sheet is intended to be concise so when it comes to [1:43:10] matters like the long-term affordability of a future condominium unit that's a [1:43:16] whole another 30 page document um we didn't want to prepare that document if you're not even agreeable to the concept [1:43:22] so so the term sheet focuses on the concepts um I think one of the last pages of the term sheet lists exhibits [1:43:30] um a through P that we currently Envision would need to be created um and [1:43:37] so we would I you know I I I hope you you'd have Fai faith in staff and our and our advisers that with your consent [1:43:45] to move forward at some point in time that you you'd eventually get a full packet that has all the exhibits that [1:43:51] has all the detail all the details flushed out we're just not at that point today but happy to get there yeah so it [1:43:59] seems to me that there's a couple different possibilities one is we have a work session and go through this together or uh folks that have concerns [1:44:06] uh Commissioners that have concerns about elements of the term sheet they send to you in advance so that you can [1:44:12] you can prepare answers to those questions or have conversations with them so that we can have a conversation [1:44:18] in a public Arena about those various concerns um [1:44:23] but it is um it is important to have the time to be able to flesh all this out so as just [1:44:31] can use this by way of example is that if commissioner Jackson had a point that would be covered more thoroughly in uh [1:44:38] the subsequent document and not in the detail we'd expect in the term sheet then that'd be a good thing to know but [1:44:44] until she asked the question and we have the conversation how are you going to know and she also may have some things [1:44:49] on her list that haven't even been thought of to that are po potential additions to the term sheet or just [1:44:56] understanding elements of the term sheet better for all of us you know so uh based on that and and the and the [1:45:04] significance of this potential project that was preliminarily approved by the council what what do you suggest we do [1:45:11] here is in terms of having a study session together to go over the elements of the term sheet which we usually leave [1:45:17] to you and professional staff or do you want to have these little one-off conversations and then we [1:45:23] deal with it all on the 15th my recommendation would be to um to [1:45:29] do kind of a hybrid if if you've got a list of questions or two pages of questions I'm eager to to know what [1:45:35] those are and I can start preparing responses or or edits um we can do that informally in the next couple days or [1:45:41] week um but then come back as a group on the on the 15th and show the changes and and make sure that your colleagues hear [1:45:47] your questions as well um my concern is if we wait till the 15th to start the [1:45:52] conver ation we're now going to have to kick it down the road another month to actually get we all agree with that we [1:45:58] all understand that M commission commissioner rer my problem is that we [1:46:04] do not have our most recent approved site plan is not showing does not appear [1:46:10] to have ada8 compliant access from France Avenue and so we need to have a [1:46:15] site plan that shows that um and that needs to be passed by Council and so so [1:46:23] you know we can have all of these conversations regarding and and we do [1:46:29] need to have all those conversations U regarding Council or commissioner um [1:46:35] Jackson's concerns but we need to have a site plan that has Ada access and that [1:46:42] needs to happen so what's your reaction to [1:46:47] that a concern uh my concern would be well I guess my reaction is that we're [1:46:54] happy to modify the term sheet to make reference that this is a placeholder image to be to be replaced with the [1:46:59] final version um that would be my recommendation my concern is if we wait till the final site plan is finished um [1:47:07] two concerns um that could be a couple months away I think that kills the project um and also the final site plan [1:47:14] that's approved through zoning is not the construction plan there's still two [1:47:19] layers of construction detail so the zoning the the even the final zoning [1:47:24] plan it shows it has more detail but the real plan that they actually build to is [1:47:31] still probably six months down the road so um uh I guess at some point that [1:47:36] that's where the building department gets involved the engineering department gets involved that's when everyone gets [1:47:42] into all the detail but certainly the the final site plan that's approved [1:47:47] would be closer but it's still not the final detail um so if we wait even longer um you know at some point you [1:47:54] just have to act and presume that the that the professional staff and professional Architects and Engineers [1:48:01] that put their licenses and careers on the line are doing the right thing Mr [1:48:06] lingren you want to you have any comment on the concern what the site plan or the [1:48:11] the suggestion Mr uh new andorf is making relative to the kind of a [1:48:16] holding holding spot in in the term sheet or the relevance of the site plan to the work you're doing relative to the [1:48:23] term sheet Mr chair Commissioners I agree with what Mr new andorf said when we're [1:48:29] crafting this for your consideration as the HRA we only yield to your decisions [1:48:35] as the city council that's not decided in this and so whatever the ultimate [1:48:40] decision and the modifications necessary in the site plan that would tie back to this document and I was just actually [1:48:46] looking for the language because I think we always put it in here that that we [1:48:52] say anything that comes out of the Redevelopment agreement that would might [1:48:57] flow out of this term sheet is subject to the final zoning and land use approvals adopted by the city council so [1:49:06] in my mind this doesn't determine any of that you know and and there's still time [1:49:12] to modify it and it always would be done that way it would only tie to what your final approvals are thank you for that [1:49:19] Mr chair go ahead I I think what we're talking about here though is what what are your kind of immediate next steps [1:49:26] and I think your immediate next steps is if we can get um some questions prior to [1:49:32] prior to our August 15th meeting we would have the opportunity to respond to those and share those responses uh with [1:49:40] the commission prior to the start of that meeting certainly um we can we can [1:49:45] structure that meeting we didn't structure that meeting with the entire meeting dedicated to school uh School [1:49:52] District City Tiff we can we we told that uh our our guests that we were going to reserve half the meeting so we [1:49:59] can still sort of do I think we can still accomplish that and and still [1:50:04] table some of the discussion and possible uh reaction by their possible [1:50:09] action by the council to that meeting what kind of a time situation are we in with respect to [1:50:16] um 72nd in France uh number three Tiff District was the next item on the agenda [1:50:23] so that um based on the comments today I'd recommend we we table that resolution of course um but that what [1:50:31] that resolution says uh it asks that the city council schedule a future meeting [1:50:37] um but it sounds like we need to look at the dates and um if you're not comfortable with finishing the term [1:50:43] sheet conversation I don't think you'll be comfortable approving that resolution um so we would what that means the [1:50:50] consequence is that the process would be delayed um you know at least a couple [1:50:55] weeks um uh it's not the end of the world okay and that's there's no there's [1:51:02] no exigency there we have a we can we can put that off a little bit right [1:51:08] okay all right um so I think that [1:51:13] probably concludes our work this morning uh anything else no nothing else [1:51:18] Commissioners or from the executive director all right is there a motion to adjourn still moved second commissioner Egon [1:51:25] moves commissioner appear second so we adjourn the meeting of the H uh this 25th day of July [1:51:31] 2024 any further discussion those in favor of adjournment say I I opposed [1:51:37] carried h meeting of July 25 2024 stands [1:51:51] adjourned [1:52:21] e e