[0:00] so I'm going to call the uh uh city council work session to order it is Wednesday August 7th 2024 5:30 p.m. and [0:08] I'm going to ask our clerk Sharon Allison to call the RO council member here council member Jackson here council [0:15] member Pierce here council member rer here mayor hin here uh we've got two [0:21] main topics uh tonight the first one is this joint meeting we're having with the ad housing foundation and we're going to [0:26] discuss development concerns a concepts for the fire state number two an sson [0:31] our former colleague on the city council who's now president of the ad housing Foundation is going to lead that [0:37] discussion I don't know if you want to have some of the other folks come up to the table with you we got room housing [0:42] Foundation members yeah okay is comfortable [0:49] he we the background of this actually our housing manager with us as well [0:54] Stephanie hackinson so Ann go ahead welcome hi thank you Ann spanson do you [1:00] want an address okay uh yes I am the chair of the Dina housing Foundation [1:06] which is a 5013c uh nonprofit and we've been [1:11] talking to you about the back half of the fire station site so tonight we're bringing you concepts for that we're [1:18] pretty excited about it um It's a Wonderful opportunity to do something um [1:23] really significant in our city and and answer some questions so um we'd like this [1:30] partnership with you we have a lot of our our goals aligned with you as far as having affordable housing that is also [1:38] um ownership housing and Rental um we have two members bernardette and Mary [1:44] Kay here tonight I see Jeff um I know Jerry's gone and um so we're going to [1:50] bring this forward we have hired the um Architecture Firm that Mike fiser is [1:55] involved in lhb and he has brought his the whole team on board today it's just [2:01] Michael who represents their affordable housing section um and I'm going to really let them talk because I want to [2:08] give them all the time so you can ask some questions and tell us what you think um there are three concepts we're [2:14] going to bring you tonight we would prefer that you just look at the three concepts before you start asking [2:19] questions so let us let them get through the three and then they'll have the three up there so you can see them and [2:25] then you can ask questions make comments and let us know how you feel thank you [2:31] thank great Mike welcome back again thanks for uh having us here happy to uh [2:38] uh to come and talk about housing on the fire station site and this is Mike Madden he leads our housing Studio [2:44] co-leads our housing Studio at lhb so he'll be presenting the concepts but I would just want to talk about um sort of [2:51] the bigger picture before we get into like what could happen on this [2:57] site so uh just context wise I think we all know where the site is I won't spend [3:03] too much time on that um not going to spend a lot of time on the Southdale area plan but it's important to [3:10] acknowledge that it's there and it it will impact whatever we would do on this site and in particular I'm just going to [3:17] point out that um there's sort of this signature public realm or the connection [3:22] between Fred Richards and Centennial Lakes and that's a a key component that could impact this site and other sites [3:29] in this area and also just in general the Southdale area plan talks about breaking up super blocks right and there [3:35] are a lot of super blocks in this area so just thinking about how that might have impacts in the future from a land [3:41] use and Zoning perspective it's currently zoned um planned industrial but the guidance for the future um is [3:49] office residential at 20 to 75 units an acre um I just wanted to diagram a [3:56] little bit on because so much of the South area plan is about connectivity just where is the connectivity today the [4:03] red lines are of pedestrian and bike trails that exist today and the the [4:09] little lines down right around the site uh I'm assuming that when the council has approved developments in the area [4:16] they've required these sidewalks along the edges which probably don't make a lot of sense today but you can see how [4:24] they might start filling out a a path or a pattern in the future uh for example [4:30] Le uh you might think about again the southa area plan like maybe there's a linkage that goes from Fred Richards [4:37] connects through to those sidewalks and onto France Avenue uh I also want to [4:42] point out that uh another and what I'm showing is sort of how those Pathways [4:47] kind of are on property lines so you're assuming that you're still respecting everyone's properties but you're trying [4:53] to you know get those easements on the lines it's not to say that's the only way to do it another with so there's [5:00] another property line that could go straight across there and the reason I'm putting that up there it impacts how we [5:05] might look at using that site in the future so this just Zooms in a little [5:11] bit the Red Arrows I just want to show a couple photos so the arrow to the right [5:16] looking to the West is the photo on the right so you're kind of looking toward the site along that parking uh structure [5:24] and on the photo on the left is you've turned around the parking structure going south so you can see there's a lot of plant cover um between the other [5:33] parcels and the city parcel um here the photo on the right is looking South um [5:41] just backing up a little bit so it's the fence lying along the property and to the left is LA Fitness and then this [5:47] sidewalk here is along the south side and again these are sidewalks that were built as part of those developments and [5:54] probably not getting a lot of use today but you know maybe as the system gets built out they will [6:00] and then a couple photos of the site itself it's amazing cuz I feel like I was just there not that long ago and it [6:07] was just this gross asphalt Mother Nature is really efficient at uh [6:12] reclaiming land it it's actually um kind of interesting and and and the tree [6:18] growth and everything you you you think you're going to see just lots of buildings and parking lots around it but [6:24] it it's not necessarily that case so anyway just give you a little context if [6:29] you have haven't been out there recently and this one uh before Mike [6:34] jumps in to talk about some fit plans um as I mentioned in the southa area plan [6:41] it's the idea of how could you break this area up with more streets so the red lines are the potential to for [6:49] streets in the future the one on the right side of this site uh would [6:54] actually be on the site and we're going to try every scheme we show you we're going to try to show a future [7:00] allowing a future Street to come through if that makes sense on the left side because of the Wetland at the bottom of [7:06] this site we're assuming that if there's a future street it's actually off of this [7:11] site uh and then but you could see how you could have some north south connections and maybe an east west down [7:18] along 77th um and then where the fire station [7:24] the loop right now around the fire station could potentially be an East West Street in the future it's just at [7:31] that point it would be Parcels being broken up and completely redeveloped which is not you know it happens all the [7:36] time we see it on the Macy's site and others but just kind of putting that out there and then I included the green [7:43] paths that I talked about were for pedestrian or whatever and I should say in the Southdale area plan that [7:50] connection um it's not just necessarily just pedestrian I mean there could be a Parkway with uh Vehicles right so not [7:58] precluding that something that depending on how things go you know maybe that's a possibility [8:05] or maybe it is just pedestrian so with that um Mike why [8:10] don't you uh start presenting the three concepts y good evening everybody um so [8:16] we we have three concepts to show you and um basically the first one is the [8:22] idea of all town homes that would be ownership the second one is a hybrid of some town homes and multif family and [8:28] the third one would be all multif family so in this first scheme and and we have [8:33] to imagine now that we're we've rotated everything to the right just so it was larger on the screen and we could see it so North is to our right um on this page [8:43] so this is an all town home scheme and at the bottom of this image you can kind of see the oval sidewalk uh that would [8:51] connect over on the LA Fitness site to the East and create that pedestrian [8:56] connection that Mike was talking about up through the site and to the west and so that's just um showing an idea of how [9:03] that could happen and then it's four uh town homes in five groups so 20 [9:10] Town Homes total um in all of these schemes we're assuming the Wetland stays [9:16] and in fact in most of these we're also assuming that it gets expanded in some way to handle storm water on the site so [9:24] the two- dark ovals are the idea of these four Bays which um storm water [9:29] would flow into those they could be treated before then they allowed to continue on into the Wetland [9:34] area uh and you know the city just did a large project at Weber Park that was [9:40] kind of in a similar vein so in this scheme uh the town homes are arranged around that Wetland the [9:46] views are um important we're trying to think about how do how do people live on a site that's kind of surrounded by [9:53] industrial um the curvature in the road is so that the town homes can kind of bend a little bit and create the [10:00] opportunity for some focal points so they're not just statically aligned right along that edge with LA Fitness [10:06] and then the idea of a bit of a green space left between the fire station and the town homes that could be a park for [10:11] the residents um or even uh folks in the city and kind of expand that um that use [10:18] and go to the next image so now we're now we're back uh North is up and this [10:24] is just uh an image of that with the massing on it and you can really see how the connection could link to the East [10:32] and then potentially up to the property line on the west um and then the town [10:37] homes uh arranged through those roads you want to go next so just before we go on to the next one so back to that [10:44] connectivity so you can see this one really clearly how it allows for future [10:50] changes like if if it's decided in the future that uh there really is this Parkway that's going to go through you [10:56] can see how it could be expanded in this site and still fit with the the housing [11:01] and then the north south on the right side could be a street that goes all the way through in the future so U that's [11:08] why I just wanted to make that connection back to what I was talking about and then this is a bird's eye view [11:15] looking from the southwest just to give a sense of massing um I should mention all of these schemes are light on [11:21] details intentionally we're just we're just exploring some ideas and massing and getting some counts of units and [11:28] things like that so that's scheme one uh scheme two um is the hybrid [11:34] scheme so in this scheme again we're rotated North is to the right we've got [11:39] an L-shaped apartment building that helps sort of set the edge on the west [11:45] side of the site and between the fire station and the residential area and then it's broken up into two [11:51] neighborhoods so there's a town home neighborhood uh at the bottom left there [11:57] so it' be the southeast uh with a little Ring Road and there's a now our pedestrian path cuts through the [12:04] town homes which we'll talk about in a second and then the idea here is that we create sort of a boardwalk similar to [12:10] what was done at Weber Park to cut across the Wetland to line up with that property line to the west and then by [12:17] doing the L-shaped town home or multifam we can create a semi-private uh [12:24] Courtyard that can be used as a green space for the residents um we're showing some parking [12:30] along the uh road that runs East West there um part of the Loop Road of the [12:35] fire station and then some parallel parking along the road uh that runs [12:40] along the town homes there so um again this just orients us [12:48] back correctly and you can kind of the Green in the middle there is just a indication of this could be some green [12:54] space Tot Lot playground for the folks in the apartment building [12:59] one thing I should have also mentioned earlier is um there is a storm water [13:04] movement from the LA Fitness site diagonally to that Wetland and so in all [13:10] of these schemes we're trying to make sure we aren't blocking that off necessarily uh and you'll see that in [13:16] the mapping in the city but when you stand out there you're like how can that even happen because of the way the [13:21] grades working somehow it does um so there is a water flow there U the other [13:27] thing I'll just point out again the north south street on the East and this one's a little trickier if you were to [13:33] ever have a vehicular Parkway in the future going east west you can see how it still could work fine for pedestrians [13:41] but this one gets a little dier if you want to reserve that opportunity in the [13:46] future for a Parkway with cars so just uh putting that out there as [13:53] well and then this just gives sort of a an image um so the image up on the right [13:58] is is not this project but it's a precedent image um the idea that that [14:03] the it's a little bit more of an urban kind of setting where that pedestrian path could come through the town homes [14:10] and it really is kind of a nice uh nice experience and then it would open up onto the boardwalk that would cross over [14:16] the Wetland area this is a bird's eye view just [14:21] showing the massing so in this one uh we're assuming it's a four-story multif family building [14:29] and twostory town homes so this is the last scheme and this assumes it's all [14:34] multifam and so in this one we don't have Town Homes um and it's arranged so [14:40] that the multif family buildings really help set the edge of the site and uh the [14:47] delineation between the fire station site and this site and they're arranged again to create a courtyard that face a [14:53] South that could be shared between the two buildings um the two buildings would allow the project to be phased [14:59] uh for financing and for funding um and all of these schemes we're assuming [15:05] there' be parking under the multif family building and then this actually leaves the South part of the site as an [15:13] opportunity an opportunity for green space for the residents um a park or to [15:19] expand the Wetland area uh as the area around it develops that could be sort of [15:24] banked for storm water for other sites to facilitate the development of [15:31] those so this reorient us reorients us to the North in this scheme it's uh the [15:36] building on the left is a three-story building the building on the right is a four-story building and that's one of the things that we really sort of chewed [15:44] on quite a bit when we were working on this is what's the right scale for the site given the surrounding area what it [15:51] is today and what we assume it will become and so this scale is a little bit [15:56] higher density which seems appropriate for the size of these sites and what is [16:01] happening around it whereas the town homes is a much lower density and a little more inward focused um with that [16:08] scheme and that is the third [16:14] scheme so those are the again they're diagrams they're not trying to be [16:19] designed yet but just to kind of give you an opportunity to think about how you might want to use um you know the [16:26] city owned site and and what ramifications it might have for fulfilling those other bigger picture [16:32] plans um you know with the South area planning so with that take any questions [16:39] or well I have just a technical question to kick things off and that is this is a very wet piece of land tell me more [16:45] about parking in the apartment buildings yeah I think the water table wouldn't allow you to bury the parking so it we [16:54] would have to get geotechnical report to look at all that but there's a few options one would be couldn't we bury it [17:00] and if that's if that's an option then that would be ideal if we can't do that we what we've done in the past is we've [17:06] done some like partially submerged and then the site's large enough we can grade around it to bring grade up to [17:13] that first floor or we could look at doing liner around the parking uh at [17:19] that first FL level so those are all details that we would have to work out uh going forward and I guess the impact [17:26] on affordability for different parking l options since this is an affordable housing conversation yeah so the [17:33] multifam is the most efficient way to do affordable housing The Sweet Spot is [17:38] really in that 40 to 65 units in a building um the funding mechanisms that [17:44] are set up just really seem to support that kind of a unit count we certainly [17:49] do buildings larger than that and we do buildings smaller than that but that's sort of seems to be The Sweet Spot um we [17:57] do build buildings all the time that are three and four stories with a structured [18:03] parking and that seems to be feasible [18:08] soils are a big deal so that's again just something we'd have to dig into and and look [18:16] at right this is um a procedural concern and I went through the packet very [18:22] carefully this is the first time I've seen those images and I know this has come up in the past we really need to [18:29] have all of the material that we are reviewing provided to us before the meeting and this also makes it really [18:35] hard for any Resident who is maybe listening trying to follow this they can't see what we're looking at um so [18:43] this isn't just this specific case but this has happened in the past and we really you know I'm I'm on a board I've [18:50] been on a couple boards I have never experienced having to show up and digest things on the flight so I'm going to [18:58] stop there but that's a problem and a concern the other thing is I did not [19:03] remember having a dialogue where we gave permission to pursue nonbinding [19:10] development I went back to them after asking which meeting this happened at I was told it was the May 21st meeting um [19:17] 3 minutes were spent talking about this excess land and at no point were council [19:23] members asked if we had any questions um we didn't make any statements at all and [19:28] my biggest concern about this is yes it's nice to talk about potential streets that run through it but we're [19:34] talking about a section of land that is locked in and the only way to access it [19:40] is through the side parking lots and each of those single schemes uses those [19:45] side parking lots to get to residential density and um you can say it's right [19:51] next to the fire station so not a big deal it's Minnesota it snows all the [19:57] time streets get plowed parking lots maybe later I don't even know and here's [20:04] the thing I have some knowledge but I don't know everything and you know I know this is preliminary dialogue but my [20:11] understanding is you need to have a street running in front of a residential building so those are my [20:20] concerns and I anyhow how how are we going to make this so that people who [20:26] are listening to this later can actually see these images [20:31] thank you um so thank you I I think this is really really exciting to see how we're [20:39] thinking about potentially using this site and bringing some Vis visualization because I know when we had this initial [20:44] discussion it was kind of all across the board and so this I think helps me [20:50] understand what it could look like um my initial reaction is I want to move I [20:56] personally want to move away from scheme 3 free of all higher density because I [21:02] think one of the things that we've been talking about as a council is more of those owner occupied options um some of [21:10] that Medium density so I really like seeing tow houses and like those [21:15] projects that focus on that probably say i' lean towards two of having inclusion [21:20] of that higher density a little bit more of a mixed development because I think that that that helps us meet the the [21:26] diverse needs that we have right um which I know we could also do across the city as a whole but I like centralizing [21:32] that within this site and I think in some ways right we we've [21:39] seen um examples of other affordable housing [21:45] units and the proximity to Southdale the proximity to the fire station the [21:51] proximity to other assets that we have in as a community I I want to see some [21:57] of that higher density in this in particular but it's I think it's going to be beautiful um with the Wetland and [22:03] I think with the one visual with the I think that's a bridge going over the water um I just think about like that's [22:10] it feels like a nice place to be and that's always something that I think is really important to me [22:17] is when we're talking about affordable housing like still investing into it we [22:22] want like I would love to to live in a place like that like that visual was really nice and so I think having the [22:29] opportunity to stitch together the wetlands and Green Space is really [22:34] critical so I'm kind of leaning towards scheme 2 and I know it'll continue to evolve um the one visual that you did [22:42] bring up I think really resonated with me because my initial inclination when I saw scheme 1 was it felt like it was all [22:50] garages and parking and I there are a couple of different communities that I've been to one is in Pittsburgh and I [22:57] forget what it's called but they had this entire row where all of the parking for their town houses was around back [23:03] which meant you came out onto the street you came out front you were interacting with neighbors kind of like that front door scene that I just don't feel like [23:10] we have many places the walk up kind of um mindset so I I liked that but it was [23:17] also nestled in between so I don't really know like of a way to maybe do [23:23] the first visual but then like I don't know so that's kind of where my mind goes is I don't want it to just feel like hear all the garages I want to [23:31] unite community and I think you can do that when you bring them through that Courtyard area that you had but is there [23:37] a way to also make it inviting for others enjoying the area but overall I I [23:43] think this is this has been exciting to see you know when you mentioned that when when we first got a call from an to [23:50] just try to help them look at what could fit here in my mind just have I've been [23:55] on that site I'm like that site's huge so had this picture of these beautiful [24:00] Courtyard town homes where there'd be this community that would share this common space and see what the neighbors [24:07] are doing and I thought oh there'll be a lot of them and then you start laying it out on the site and because you have the [24:12] Wetland and because you have to get streets that serve the garages it's shocking how few Town Homes fit on the [24:20] site and so it's hard to build that community in and you know Mike I think [24:25] CH is challenged to try to like what are you looking at when you're you're in your patio or looking out as well [24:33] yeah um thank you so I I have a question [24:38] I think might be for manager Neil before I give feedback [24:46] anyway um what's can you describe what the next step is from this meeting [24:53] regarding what the if if you liked this yeah if you liked this idea you could [25:00] give some some positive direction to uh the housing Foundation to further [25:06] develop uh a proposal to further develop a proposal to go out and and uh have [25:12] conversations perhaps with uh with development groups Partners uh to pursue [25:19] uh to pursue the the necessary drawings and and submissions that we need for a a [25:26] final for a preliminary approval okay then there's a public process there okay a lot of public process okay um and so I [25:35] had a couple of things I um I this is exciting right I think it's um [25:44] one of the views that um member agu talked about uh when you're kind of [25:51] walking through the town homes right it definitely is an inviting view um a [25:57] couple of things I would I think I would want to do um to step back a little bit [26:03] I'd actually want to understand the financial construct so it's public [26:10] land um what is the financial construct that we're we'd be looking at as we move [26:16] forward and I ask that question because I wonder if based on that answer [26:25] whatever we we settle on does that inform a little [26:31] bit which of these models might be um more financially [26:37] sound for us to pursue um and so just sitting here looking at it giving [26:44] feedback um questions like in that model oh who's going to manage it what's the [26:52] what's the cost to the city what you know are we selling for a dollar or [26:58] whatever those options are I think it kind of it would behoove us to at least [27:04] understand that a little bit as we move forward to uh whatever those next phases are and so that that's [27:11] in part of what you described manag Neil I think I'm good with that [27:17] um I would also in that want to look at [27:22] Market data um I have continued to talk about [27:28] owner occupied um but I have seen properties there's [27:34] one that's a Dominion run property in St Cloud that is schemed to Grant it it is [27:43] on much more land but they have an apartment multif family complex and then [27:51] strings of owner occupied town homes and you turn into the property and [27:58] and I do believe everything is 100% affordable and so that's the view I get [28:06] when I look at scheme two um [28:11] but for me to say that's what I want us to go forward with their financial [28:16] construct may be quite different from ours it it may not work out we may need [28:21] to have a portion of the multifamily B market rate to make the whole thing work [28:28] um and so that's that's an example of what I think think about when I when I [28:33] mention really trying to understand the underlying um Financial [28:40] construct um I lean towards scheme 2 but it's for a [28:46] funny reason and so I don't know if you drew this I know it's not the scale but [28:52] from a relative standpoint the scheme 2 just has four few Town Homes than scheme one from what [29:00] you you have um no not four eight from what you've got depicted up here and so [29:08] I'm if you're adding three stories for multif family it feels like [29:15] we're providing more housing for people in scheme 2 and if that is the [29:21] case which is awesome but then I go to ask the next question well why would [29:28] well could we think about maybe doing Co-op there versus rental um so that [29:35] we're able to to provide even more um owner occupied [29:41] opportunity um and so if it's if your intent was to say you know relatively [29:46] speaking we can do that we can serve more people with scheme 2 and we only [29:52] have eight fewer town homes and we're able to do some type of Co-op type of [29:58] opportunity with owner occupied like that feels good to me um [30:05] but again we got to look at the underlying financials to see if that makes sense [30:11] um and then just in general I like I I personally think it it plays [30:20] well for us to say hey on this public land we're kind of putting our our um [30:27] how do you say put our money where our mouth is um we've heard from the community broadly we support affordable [30:35] housing well here's a way that we can do it um and we can do a mix of things and [30:42] if we're able to do that um I think it could be a a very positive um move [30:49] forward for the city so I don't know if you have questions for me but that's the that's [30:55] what's in my head just go back to car member Jackson yes [31:01] thank you Mr Mayor so I want to follow up on member Pierce's comments a little [31:06] bit first of all I love the idea of having this be cooperative housing and so I'm I'm my brain goes over to York [31:13] Avenue and we've got the co-op there it has a big community garden to it and [31:18] then I go across the street to the York town homes and New York town homes I believe are rental and they have a [31:25] common building where they can have meetings and things like that and I that [31:31] seems to be missing in the town home element here so I don't know how big they are you know what they would look [31:37] like in this but I like the idea of if they were a little bit more modest and then they had a common area for [31:44] everybody who lived on this property to have a sense of community and a sense of maybe a community garden so I'm really [31:50] actually leaning towards scheme 3 if that was cooperative housing my first home was in a three flat apartment [31:57] building I loved it it was a great place to live I would have loved to own it um and I just to me that feels more homey [32:04] actually than the town homes feel less homey to me for some reason um without [32:09] that sort of sense of shared space um and so if there was a way to have a [32:16] community connection for all the buildings on this house because it's it's remote it's in an industrial area [32:22] where you started so something to give that a sense of this is home I'm safe here and I'm putting down Roots here and [32:29] so that's I actually feel that more in scheme three than I do in the others they all feel a little bit more [32:35] separated from each other um and a community garden would be an awesome element on that open Green Space if [32:42] possible H question have you ever heard of a co-op [32:48] for families I've only heard of co-ops for seniors great a great question so and I [32:56] have not heard of any cops being built that we're able to be to answer the question financeable I mean I think it's [33:01] worthy to explore but I think the fundamental question is for the foundation to explore and put out um [33:08] feelers and talk to developers and for developers to and um to go through the [33:14] effort of putting their brains together and pencil to paper and crunching numbers there needs to be some um [33:21] Direction and guidance on whether or not housing is what you want here because if they go through the time and effort and [33:28] they're like actually we want to put our a water treatment or a park or anything [33:35] else here I think it's a challenge so I think one of the goals tonight is is the [33:40] next step giving some sort of control to the foundation to pursue different [33:47] concepts whether or not it's tenative you know having them request tenative developer status having them request um [33:55] site control in some way so they can Pro pursue these various thoughts so to I [34:01] I'll start out with an answer to that and that's I want something that's creative housing that we don't have now [34:07] um there was a passive house presentation and hope was there um oh [34:13] golly down at Southville Library I thought it was in Hopkins and they had it was a passive house it was a communal [34:19] living kind of thing I thought it was in Hopkins um and the passive House people would remember that I don't know if you [34:25] remember that or not but that that's why I went um I was on the energy environment commission at the time and I [34:31] can try and find that I don't that's deep in the annals probably 2016 um but [34:37] that was families and they had that shared space um and so that's what I had in my mind when I'm thinking but I love [34:42] the idea of housing here so long as it will have a safe feel because it is a [34:47] change in the use of the area um I remain concerned about putting [34:53] housing here because there is no direct Road access and you have to go through [34:58] the parking lot of the fire station and I want some kind of assurance that that [35:05] is something that can be done before I would consider this I also feel again [35:11] that we never really had a robust discussion about what could happen with this land and I know I have heard from [35:17] Edina residents that they are concerned we spent 15.5 million I believe for this [35:22] site um and I feel like we need to [35:27] into and I know this is going to sound really horrible because a lot of people [35:33] believe um every scrap of public land needs to be kept uh but you've got [35:40] industry industrial properties to the South is there a possibility they might [35:45] want to buy some of that land how much would they pay for it so I just I feel [35:51] like we're being asked to make a decision before we have really had a [35:56] dialogue and and that makes me nervous but the safety of not having you know [36:02] maybe you can get a right of way so that you're coming from the west and getting [36:08] onto this site but does this mean we're going to give a permanent RightWay coming down you know through the parking [36:15] lot for our new fire station yes okay we're going to do that and that parking [36:20] lot that has been designed is adequate for being used as a road yes engineering [36:27] says it is engineering says it is okay we designed it with that in mind [36:33] that it could be a future stre all right I I [36:42] think we have not I feel like we keep putting the cart before the horse and I [36:47] also think it would have been really good again that the public could have seen what we're looking at [36:54] so I remain concerned so this [36:59] if we could have more Assurance well I guess okay so it's a road [37:06] okay I didn't understand the the comment that and maybe I just misinterpret that [37:12] this that we couldn't do co-op there unless it's senior Co-op I said I have [37:18] not seen a model that of Co-op that was not SE I have not seen that I am I'm not [37:25] aware of any family Co-op okay but you [37:32] know yeah okay thank you yeah so your saying it's worth exploring it doesn't [37:38] exist oh bill says it doesn't exist H only HUD only finances senior affordable [37:44] hous collapse so so I would I'm going to go back to [37:50] the first comment I made about understanding the underlying construct um that may be true that maybe HUD [37:58] doesn't do it but we know that there are tons of co-ops um and I believe the one that I [38:05] mentioned is Affordable in St Cloud now could it be totally [38:12] financed um privately that could be I don't know um but that's what I'm [38:18] getting at um really trying to make sure we understand um the underlying [38:24] construct cuz that actually would help us decide well no then okay we can't do Coop figure because it's HUD financed or [38:33] what have you and then we would hone in on one of the other two schemes repair [38:38] the problem really with affordable housing is the financing is incredibly difficult so you are going to a lot of [38:46] different wallets to try to make a project work um so if it's Co-op that [38:53] you would like an ownership we could look at putting a senior one in because because we're going to need HUD we're going to need [39:00] whatever kind of financing we can get to build Town Homes will be if you are [39:06] interested in any of this you know we're going to be talking to Habitat and a few other people that have started to build [39:12] from scratch now affordable Town Homes you're right um this isn't we're not [39:19] we're not proposing at this point that we're selling this land to anyone cuz we don't think that works for the scheme [39:26] but all of a sudden this city has an opportunity to demonstrate the concepts in the Southdale plan in breaking down [39:33] blocks and getting um walkability north south east west and we think this is an [39:39] opportunity there is housing right across the street from the fire department so it isn't that this is sitting in the middle of a huge [39:45] industrial Zone with nothing we've got Fred Richards two blocks away so and [39:51] looking at it from a foundation point of view it just seems like a really good [39:56] opportunity to work with you as a city and say hey what could we do that's really creative [40:02] here and I love the idea of Co-op but because as Bill said it doesn't work [40:08] except for senior to get help financing and we don't want to have to finance [40:14] we're going to have to do some financing of this as a city anyway just to do it um so um we're just in the like [40:22] preliminary stages we wanted to give permission to to bring some ideas to you you guys um just to see if we could even [40:30] move ahead with any of them um and we're excited about the opportunity cuz it's [40:35] one of the larger City plots that we have and we're a pretty you know developed City so so I just please don't [40:43] interpret my feedback as though I'm not in support of this so we we definitely [40:50] looking for creativity but I can tell you the site that I saw in St [40:55] Cloud I believe believe it had Co-op there was a apartment complex and there [41:02] were town homes and I would what I would love to do is if somebody wants to go get on the [41:10] phone or drive up there and take a look I could be totally wrong but um I do [41:15] believe Jeff works for Dominion I I I assure you the uh dominum does not [41:22] develop co-ops and actually they don't do we don't do um ownership hous [41:27] so those Town Homes would be rental okay are you sure it was a [41:33] Dominion project yeah but seems like we should check [41:40] into I'm happy to go with and get on the phone well I don't yeah I don't I well we've got the resource right here with [41:46] Stephanie to do all of that investigative work and she says she's willing to do it and one of the first [41:52] calls she'll make is over to uh Minnesota Housing Finance because they've got a billion dollars they're [41:58] sitting on over there uh and they may be looking for some creativity and I don't hear an discouraging that either she's [42:04] just trying to give us a reality check so that that said [42:13] um uh you know what when I think about all the great work that Thea housing Foundation has done uh on their own [42:20] initiative really coming and finding um uh the old dry cleaners uh in bankruptcy [42:26] and uh in an environmental blight uh over there and coming up with the idea [42:32] for housing there and then over at 4040 uh you know so to me a Dina housing [42:38] Foundation has never needed our permission to come up with ideas on where affordable housing might be located the fact that they came up came [42:45] to us tonight with this these ideas I think is really um um creative [42:51] and um and you know self-initiating and so I commend them for it [42:57] I do think member Risser raises an interesting question that is um when we first started think about [43:04] buying this property or looking at putting the fire station over in Rosland [43:11] Park and then opting for this property which we knew was in excess of what we needed one of the first things we talked [43:18] about was well what are some of the other possibilities of what we could do with this property and housing came right to the top of the [43:25] list but what I don't know is is there a potential need that the [43:32] city has for this balance of this site that would that would be more important or [43:39] primary than housing I and I don't know the answer to that I mean I'm thinking from a from a staff analysis standpoint [43:46] somebody mentioned um water treatment plant you know for that part of town [43:53] so is the idea of housing appealing to me from prospect prospective standpoint I'd say [43:59] yeah I'd like to look at that issue but I say that in the context of well wait a [44:05] minute we haven't even we haven't even talked about what are the possibilities for the use of that [44:11] space including I suppose U does that have market value and and to me that's [44:18] a it would be inappropriate I think for us not to have that preliminary sort of conversation first to say what are the [44:25] different options that we've that we uh have available to us for this property and then you know I suspect we [44:33] might want housing and I really applaud ehf for coming to us on their own [44:39] volition here but I'm a little bit anxious too about getting ahead of ourselves just a [44:46] touch and there's some great ideas that were Advanced here in terms of housing myself I think from the information [44:52] we've gotten from Hazel Reinhardt where Minnesota's birthing 10,000 fewer kids a [44:58] year they're finding the kids that are being born in single family homes uh and then hearing from our real estate [45:04] community that we're we don't have enough Town Homes like they do in eaten prey where there are a lot of tech [45:09] families living in town homes um if if we shift to housing I'd [45:16] like to have us think really carefully through the notion of should it be ownership a model and what would be the [45:24] most encouraging for families to get into an ownership model uh and um or maybe that combination [45:32] where we have eight fewer Town Homes but we've got and we've got more capacity there more density U so I like I like everything [45:39] I've heard I just don't want us to get to rule out something that we think [45:45] might be more important to do that we don't even have a have a sense of whether you might need something or some [45:52] other element of our city uh staff thinks there's something else that we need to think about there as well so I [46:01] those are just kind of my preliminary thoughts you know I I personally don't [46:07] feel like we're getting ahead of ourselves um I mean that was partially why I asked the question earlier it [46:15] feels like if this is something that we think is a potential idea then okay [46:21] there might be other things that we that might come forward that could be potential ideas too um but you do need [46:29] something to be able to evaluate any particular idea so I actually didn't [46:35] agree with member riser's point on that and I think if we if we think this has [46:42] some promise perhaps what we're saying is all right let's just there's the feedback let's just leave housing here's [46:50] what we could do and then if there's I don't know what the other options are we can open it up and and have other uh [46:59] ideas come forward to the same level of specificity and then we could evaluate [47:05] those ideas and and maybe that's what you're suggesting I don't know yeah well I what I was sensitive to also was [47:12] putting the ehf to more work and expense I agree without us knowing if that's the road we're going to go down yeah it is [47:19] this is an opportunity though for the state of Minnesota with currently what they have to offer so you can sit on [47:26] this and we can admire it like we did the Public Works site that is still sitting empty um which or you know [47:35] because in another year um that opportunity for those funds may not be there this is a threat this is just [47:41] reality but I would just I would say to that comment to me I'd want to know within the next month or two what are [47:47] the other possibilities yeah well and we and we actually did some some preliminary work and we avoided sites [47:55] that we already knew that engineering wanted to use for water and things like that so it this wasn't just a dartboard [48:03] kind of proposal for you so you had some early staff engagement on this issue and [48:09] they didn't say oh hold on time out we got to think about other things here no and you were already working with the [48:15] art center going to the library center so that was another you know so it when [48:24] I look at it at least from my old city Council view it seemed like this was a good time to talk about this [48:31] um but and we've talked with you we met with you when we worked on our our [48:38] future plans and heard from you that affordable ownership was really [48:43] important yeah I should have thought that you would have had aary or ongoing conversation with staff I didn't think [48:49] about that but Mr Mayor um when we had our work session in May what uh ccil [48:55] Brer was pointing out was that we talked about three different sites one of them being rosin Park and we we talked about [49:01] this site and we' had a short conversation we had done and if you look back at that item we had talked to staff [49:07] about potential uses and what they saw for so we we do feel comfortable with the idea that if you want to do housing [49:14] that this would be the best site out of all of the reused sites that we looked at well that's good yeah thanks for that [49:22] it is worth taking a look at that three minute period though because it there's sort of a a casual the Adina housing [49:29] Foundation is interested but this could be um sold for private use and so we [49:37] don't have that information and that was it was not emphasized as this is a good [49:44] place to put housing in fact it was a casual um Edina housing Foundation is [49:49] interested and that was it well at that point I would [49:55] say selling it for private taking our public property and selling it for private opportunity would be the last [50:01] choice I would make I would look at every public need we have first as a priority before I would think about [50:08] turning to the private sector except as a partner in the nonprofit world where we where we [50:15] partnered with Aon and we partnered with uh we haven't partnered with dominum and [50:21] other yeah right and and I understand and I do support affordable housing and [50:26] I very happy we did the adus I think you know that's gentle uh development and I [50:32] think this could be affordable housing but to be totally clear I feel like in [50:38] terms of you know being a good Steward and all of that I don't have the information that I need to you know be [50:45] able to say with confidence like I would like whichever scheme you know because I [50:51] I I just don't maybe we can get more information from staff I don't know sure [50:57] oh thanks Mr Mayor so what I would like for next steps is to hear what um the [51:03] feedback we got from the Minnesota housing Foundation um about creative [51:09] ideas because I know I've been at things where they've talked about yeah we're looking at ownership and stuff but it's all been kind of vague and if we can [51:15] hear back from them we would love to put money into X or we have X Y and Z you're [51:21] smiling I don't know if that's what they're saying or not but they won't get that specific Direction they will never [51:26] tell a city what we want and what we' support but I mean of a conversation yeah say what pots of money do they have [51:34] um for creative ideas perhaps I think that's a good point though you're making I think if you go over there with [51:40] something they've never thought about before and they said and you they like it I mean there could be what is it [51:47] we're going over there what is really then the question mayor I think the question is you know Stephanie [51:54] articulate relative to hosing than I can but I understood the question is could there be a potential source of funding [52:00] from the state level for Cooperative affordable Cooperative housing [52:08] ownership um we have a second about 8 Minute agenda item for you and you have [52:14] another one at we need about 20 minutes but I'd like to have 25 so we could go for a little bit longer we could go another half hour mark I think okay [52:21] thanks for ask raing that but I we we have one other thing that we need to bring with um so a year ago I know James [52:29] you brought forward the concept of an H Tax for affordable housing we'd like to come and tell you [52:36] that we're very supportive of that for ownership affordable housing um we think it's time to do that [52:42] as a city we have we've given 17 loans out so far this year second [52:49] mortgages um we can maybe keep doing that for another we don't know 6 months 9 months [52:57] next year and then we're done giving out second mortgages until we have people [53:03] pay their mortgages that they took out from us years ago it gets replenished [53:09] but it's we've been very busy in the last few years which is really exciting there have been a lot of houses there [53:14] have been some Condominiums there's been a few tow houses we do own a few town houses in our city um but we think that [53:23] James's idea to do that tax has a lot of value for us especially since you [53:30] support ownership affordable housing as do we so we're not asking you for the money we're just telling you as a city [53:36] we think it's now time to step up and do that um we suggest a modest tax if [53:41] you're going to do that I know you usually have to do this in September and we're at the first week of August and [53:47] you don't vote on it you'll have until December to get a lot of feedback from your residents so there'll be time for [53:53] feedback um but if we want to continue you as a city to encourage people to live here and to own when they live here [54:01] it's time to do that okay so take that under advisement [54:07] I've got a couple questions sure we got a number of emails um before this meeting about the new money coming in [54:13] from the the um sales tax for housing um can that be used for second [54:21] mortgages if there's a permanent declaration or something I would have to look into the details it is for [54:28] affordable housing and so um our current come home to Adina program does not fall [54:36] it's it's the our limits are too high and someone could flip it the next day and then you know and pay us [54:43] back so it's in pretty tenuous ground and whether or not it'd be eligible for that we received our first check for [54:49] about 115,000 okay and then my second question is if [54:55] we do raise the HRA tax I it sounds as though that's more flexible that that could be used for this [55:02] purpose it's how you set it up it just hesitated we move back to topic one [55:08] because I don't feel like we put we gave you a very good direction here uh well basically the direction I got from you [55:13] is that you're not ready to move on this and that we were going to go home not sure that's a attitude of [55:23] majority or what next steps might be envisioned to be yeah if we [55:28] outline the next steps I think will be helpful [55:34] I the the way we started um I am definitely in support of vetting [55:44] these this as an idea for housing um but we're having non-binding feedback [55:52] so I'm not sure what it even means for us to say we'd like to move forward with [55:58] scheme one or scheme two just from a process standpoint and I don't think you're make you're not making the scheme [56:05] one scheme two scheme three decision tonight you're not making a decision tonight but if you do want to make a [56:10] decision we we need to tee that up with with some kind of an agreement with with [56:16] the foundation the foundation already has the previous council's uh [56:21] designation as the city's official housing policy adviser so they do have that status with us already and we've [56:28] they're a trusted partner in a lot of these projects that we've done before but we would want to put together [56:33] something a little bit more formal to determining who's going to do what and who's paying for what um so we can if [56:39] that's something you are interested in having us put together on a fast track we can do that uh but if it's not a fast [56:46] track we can we can keep working on it and bring it to you when it's ready I think my preference would be we we work [56:53] on it we don't necessarily FASTT trck it but we also don't halt it and we also in parallel come up with some more of this [57:00] information of what are validated that we don't see any other ideas or if we do [57:05] see other ideas for the site what those are so we can have a robust conversation about that and then also how are we [57:12] starting to think about the finances and I know that that will continue to be the thread that holds this entire thing [57:19] together pulls it apart but I think it is worth a conversation of that before we get too deep down and potentially [57:26] waste resources financially um so maybe we continue kind of dual pathing it in [57:31] the short term yeah I think that you've done it a lot of several different ways in the [57:37] past I mean you on your own initiative you you went after uh the dry cleaner [57:42] site and then you you actually actually purchased 4040 if I remember right and then we H bought it from [57:48] you so this is a little different because mayor you own the site yeah it's [57:54] a it's different uh in but in the sense that if you had the general Kate [57:59] described it well I remember knew could you go on this parallel track staff looks at what other uses there might be [58:06] and you you keep going forward on the housing side and come up with some uh [58:11] further ideas for us is that enough guidance for you or do you need something you need to spend money or you [58:17] we're spending money we hired we hired LP to do this and I'm not willing really [58:22] to spend any more money based on wanting to continue to give second mortgages until I know really that you're solidly [58:29] behind this and you know and I'm willing certainly to encourage Stephanie to get [58:36] the information that you want you know could we ever do a different kind of Co-op than senior um yes it is more [58:43] expensive to build single family town houses um that's going to cost us more money um we know that but we just wanted [58:50] to know if if you were behind housing which direction did you want us to look at it [58:57] and I don't hear you yet saying that so um manager we pause your efforts so [59:06] don't continue to invest the money is how I'm thinking of it but we as a city pursue the paperwork that would be [59:13] required to then say yes we're going to move forward if that's how we as a council decide and and I think I mean it [59:21] goes without saying the fire department needs to be in the loop and I just want to and they are okay they are all right [59:28] um and we you know representing the citizens of be dinette this needs to be out so people can look at it and think [59:35] about it because we can't just tonight punt without getting feedback from the [59:41] community you you wouldn't you would have it in front of you because if there [59:46] was ever any paperwork prepared so that we could move ahead and do anything we [59:51] would be back in front of you at a council meeting with everything like a normal [59:57] development true true but it it helps to get it as early as possible because I [1:00:04] mean I don't know what people are thinking and if there's somebody's got a point that's just an absolutely fantastic one you know and it doesn't [1:00:11] come in later I don't know you know if the ideas it just is the more [1:00:17] information we can get and share the better okay well I'd be happy to come back to you at a council meeting [1:00:25] but do you want to see all three of these again publicly but I want the [1:00:30] public to be able to log on and see it you know it should have been in the [1:00:35] packet yes thank you Mr Mayor so I'll just say I personally am very strongly [1:00:41] in favor of housing here I think we've heard for 15 years that we need creative [1:00:46] housing options in the city we need missing middle housing I would love to see something there I don't know how the [1:00:52] financing works but if there were an ownership opportunity that would work I [1:00:57] think this is something we've been looking for for a very long time and I'm strongly in favor of that I have not heard a similar outcry for a need in the [1:01:05] city other than the art center we've got a home for that now and so I am strongly in favor of creative housing here I [1:01:13] think if we sell it we'll see apartment buildings being proposed here so if they're going to be apartment buildings [1:01:18] I want them to have something creative to it because that that really inspires me and I think it will inspire a lot of [1:01:24] people to think we've done something creative and housing here um so that's my two cents worth so for for me I think [1:01:31] this conversation uh in vetting this issue of the interaction between you and [1:01:38] staff has helped me a lot in terms of I I think early on staff would have told [1:01:43] you no no wait a minute we hardly have the walls up over there at the fire station and you're already over here [1:01:48] looking for something we need to you know call time out and think about other things we need to do but they haven't [1:01:54] said that no they have not you haven't You' they' they've been supportive and it's not just Stephanie [1:02:00] it's a broad staff that's saying yeah that's a good idea over there so that's caused me to temper that concern uh I [1:02:09] don't know if it's entirely eliminated but I think Kate's idea is a good one we can see what else might be a need out [1:02:14] there and running in parallel track with plumbing up this Plumbing out this [1:02:19] housing idea but right now it seems like what James talking about how do we Finance it that's a big that's a big [1:02:26] question you know how do we do that we we got the land you got to tell us what you want on it first before we can tell [1:02:31] you how it can be financed to be honest can I just sure one thing so so [1:02:37] this is inspiring to listen to because I've taken notes here and the word creativity has been used a lot that [1:02:43] you're not look and and it makes sense right the city owns a piece of property has a fire station on one side um you [1:02:51] know it's it's it shouldn't be just oh we have land let's put some housing on it should be We own land what can we do that we can [1:02:59] control and create our own models and in a way um the and so you know we we [1:03:06] haven't really gotten into it but the town house the the town home schemes is is expensive on a per unit basis because [1:03:12] that infrastructure those streets all has to be built for fewer units but yet [1:03:18] home ownership would be great as we've talked about so if you really embrace the difficulty that's where the [1:03:25] creativity comes in that's why I really like what you're saying about maybe the models aren't financed the way it [1:03:31] happens today but you own the property set if you set some goals and I would [1:03:37] say go even further and say what if this housing is the first affordable home ownership that's Zero Energy that's [1:03:45] carbon neutral that's like do something that's truly unique and and I'm sorry if [1:03:52] that makes it really hard to but I think if you have a challenge then make it a [1:03:57] challenge and use the challenge to to get you know what you want to get there [1:04:03] is funding you know out there for the sustainability pieces so if we just sort [1:04:08] of like grab that and go with it it might actually help us mayor we're going to wait till Scott [1:04:15] Neil tells us when you're ready to talk all right you're you're running [1:04:21] really late and I don't want to do that I know I appreciate you being you haven't lost your propensity to be a [1:04:27] time Maven I haven't lost that mayor very [1:04:54] much you said go ahead looks we're on part two talking about [1:05:01] linol London [1:05:09] process [Applause] yeah all [1:05:15] right good evening mayor and councel as you said we're here to give a brief update on the Lincoln and London are [1:05:21] small area plan process uh we have Zack lock who's the project manager with men collabor their consultant helping us [1:05:26] with this process um also Lum Miranda the chair of the working group and mayor motherf also on the working group uh [1:05:33] Zach's gonna oh and Steve as well yeah uh so Zach's gonna give an overview want [1:05:38] to come up feel free all [1:05:44] right Zach's going to give an overview of the engagement that we've done today and uh talk a little bit about the work [1:05:50] the working group has been doing so Z excellent well it all I believe we've had a chance to meet everyone but just [1:05:55] as a reminder my name is Zach loam I'm a partner at M collaborative and we're the prime consultant on um the Lincoln [1:06:01] London Dairy small area plan um I'm going to give you just a little update about where we are so far in the process [1:06:07] talk a little bit about what's coming next um just as a reminder the study area we're looking at is on the western [1:06:14] edge of Edina um it is a um relatively small site um that contains uh mixed use [1:06:20] Parcels contains the Children's Hospital business campus um some commercial as [1:06:26] well as a number of office and Industrial parcels and runs along um 9M Creek and the trail um there as well has [1:06:34] an exit off of 169 um connected to Ponka um our process um we split it into four [1:06:41] kind of key phases um in the understand phase which is what we start with um our [1:06:47] goal is really to work with the community to understand the key issues challenges what people love about the [1:06:52] place what they want to see change about the place what opportunities there might be within it um second phase is Envision [1:06:59] um and that's really where we are taking the priorities that have been set forth by the community in that first phase and [1:07:05] beginning to think about what are the strategies that we would take in order to actually achieve change in the ways [1:07:11] that people want to see it happen and um moving further from that we will be [1:07:16] looking at um specific implementation tools and then finally bringing it to you for adoption so um we are at a point [1:07:23] right now where we are just wrapping up our understand phase and moving into our Envision phase so um getting having [1:07:29] closing out the first round of Engagement beginning to get ready for the second um as a part of this process [1:07:36] um as a part of that engagement um we have had four working group meetings and as we mentioned there are three members of our working group who are here with [1:07:43] us today um it's been a really fruitful um fruitful groups and um we've really [1:07:50] enjoyed working with a working group that's also willing to get out and and get their hands dirty in terms of do [1:07:55] engagement as well um we've had a public open house um we have done online [1:08:01] engagement and then following on the public openhouse we also um hosted uh [1:08:07] three different popup meetings and those meetings um were done after the open house we with our working group sort of [1:08:13] reflected on who we saw in attendance at the open house who maybe wasn't there what are areas where we wanted to try to [1:08:20] get additional targeted feedback um as well um so the three pop-up meetings that we we held one of them was a popup [1:08:26] at the London Dairy shops outside the Caribou Coffee um Caribou was nice enough to give us some free samples to give away as well and got to have [1:08:33] conversations with people who are using that space um as as Shoppers um and so [1:08:39] on um we had a popup at the Loden which is the apartment building on site and [1:08:44] actually got to talk to people who are living on site um living in the rental property there um we got to both have [1:08:52] some people who came specifically to talk to us but also were able B to kind of go out on their amenity deck on a nice day and have conversations with [1:08:58] people who were grilling and swimming and so on so uh a nice opportunity there and then we also did a uh popup um in [1:09:06] the park um nearby at a time when um youth sporting events were going on so [1:09:11] that we could talk to parents children um groups um in that area as well um we [1:09:18] also have and I should mention that our working group members all also volunteered to be a part of those [1:09:23] pop-ups and so we're a part of these conversations with the community as well um we have underway um a business and [1:09:29] land owner survey as well and we have working group members that are working in teams to actually go out and make [1:09:35] sure they're having conversations with all of the business owners and land owners um and we'll be asking questions [1:09:41] um about how well the facilities they have serve their needs of the business what sorts of um additions to the area [1:09:49] would be supportive of a good business environment for them um and really what their needs are moving into the future [1:09:55] as well and of course asking the question you know if have you thought about selling are [1:10:00] you planning to be here in long-term investment you know those sorts of things as well so as I said this first round of [1:10:08] community engagement for us is really about understanding what do people love about [1:10:15] the area already so what under no circumstances should we mess up um what do we need to make sure that we're [1:10:21] protecting and preserving and then talking about what their feelings are about what the area needs um as well and [1:10:28] in doing those sorts of questions what we're really trying to understand is where we have themes um so what are the [1:10:35] things that people are talking about a lot and then within those themes what are the areas of consensus that we hear [1:10:40] and then what are the areas where we have less consensus where we as um a [1:10:46] Consulting team as we're moving through the small area plan are actually going to have to be working to dive further [1:10:51] around people's feelings in order to really find out what we have um in terms of consensus so in that first round of [1:10:57] Engagement um that we've done so far really these six themes have have come up as really Central to um what people [1:11:05] love about the area and what they want to see um Economic Development and local businesses um that is an area where um I [1:11:14] think we expected to hear less consensus than we did um in fact uh large majority [1:11:21] of folks that we talked to really love um lary Plaza love the restaurants love [1:11:27] the coffee shop and would like to see more of that neighborhood scale commercial um moving into the area um [1:11:33] there was also a lot of discussion of desire for small grocer or other things [1:11:38] like that so things that are potentially walkable from the neighborhood um and really serve the the area um second key [1:11:46] theme um character of Housing and Development um it will not probably surprise you to know that this is the area where we have the least consensus [1:11:52] we've heard people um want to see absolutely nothing happening people who want to see very high density housing [1:11:58] happening people who really don't want affordability people who really do want affordability there's just a a really [1:12:04] wide um sort of amount of of feedback that we've heard in this area and so [1:12:10] this is going to be one of the areas that in our new round of Engagement we are going to have to dig deeper on we're going to have to ask more specific [1:12:17] questions in order to really work to build some of that um consensus within that area C I know okay twice now the [1:12:26] issue of the sewer and the cost has derailed projects and I would like to know at what point that information [1:12:33] about the sewer is going to be provided the cost yeah I have a slide about that so I'll talk about that here has the [1:12:39] Outreach included that it it it has included the fact that potential future [1:12:45] uses are constrained and we've been working with our working group around how to frame the plan to make sure that [1:12:53] we have strategies that will work if and when that is resolved and [1:13:00] what strategies we have that can be undertaken for the Improvement of the area in line with the desires of the [1:13:08] community if that is not resolved in a way that would allow additional development is the public being made [1:13:14] aware of the cost yes that will be a part of this next round of Engagement [1:13:19] okay yes um sorry and I'll talk about that more I do have a slide on that that [1:13:24] issue as well um the third area um is uh community and Gathering spaces um again [1:13:31] another area of very very strong consensus um the focus here has really [1:13:38] been on the love that the community has for the trail and the desire to see additional amenities attached to that [1:13:44] trail so really thinking about the way that that can continue to be expanded as a key component of that um and that um [1:13:51] really that can be the one of the kind of roots of the areas identity um moving [1:13:56] forward um Green Space is an environmental stewardship um similarly [1:14:01] um is an area where people relating to the creek they love that feel of the [1:14:08] area they very universally say that that is one of the best things about that area um the area that's kind of [1:14:14] interesting in that is that that feel really does kind of stop um as you move [1:14:19] um further west on the site so thinking about what opportunities there might be to really grab hold of that and use that [1:14:25] as a key Identity or theme throughout whatever types of development or Redevelopment might happen in that area [1:14:31] seems to be very important um getting around safely um is another one again with the high usage of the trail as well [1:14:39] as the number of residents that are actually usually walking or biking in that area wanting to make sure that [1:14:45] those pedestrian Pathways and bikeways are very safe um concerns about anything [1:14:50] that will encourage more traffic especially moving into to the neighborhood have also been a key theme [1:14:57] in there and then we've also you know it's a it's this is more of a process [1:15:03] thing than a specific recommendation but it's important to note that it's been coming up very frequently in the [1:15:09] engagement that having continuous Community involvement and then Vision that we're actually working to meet has [1:15:16] been a key theme of what people really want to see um that we are um thinking [1:15:21] proactively and not reacting to proposals in the future is something that that has been very [1:15:27] important um working off of those themes um we have developed a set of community [1:15:33] priority statements and a vision statement and these have all been vetted with our working group um to make sure [1:15:38] that we have consensus on them so I'll just read this out quickly um but this is this is what we're trying to achieve [1:15:44] with this process uh based on the feedback we have in 2040 the Lincoln London der area will be welcoming [1:15:50] gateway to Western Idina there will be shops restaurant homes and jobs all in a natural setting along long non Mile [1:15:55] Creek it will be thoughtfully and sustainably designed blending eco-friendly amenities with natural beauty the area will be easy to get to [1:16:02] and move around in with bike lanes and trails walking paths bus stops and carefully integrated parking the Lincoln [1:16:08] Londoner area will be a great place to live work gather fostering community and encouraging people to use trails and [1:16:13] Gathering spaces we've also created a what I will call Community priority statement but [1:16:19] this is a goal statement around each of those six themes so as we are developing recommendations will be vetting them [1:16:25] against these are are these recommendations helping us to achieve these goals that have been set forward and these priorities that have been set [1:16:31] forward encouraging a diverse array of local businesses that support the community's needs promoting a balanced [1:16:37] approach to housing that respects Community needs and preferences creating vibrant spaces that encourage and Foster [1:16:42] community and inclusivity preserve and enhance the natural environment prioritizing sustainability and outdoor [1:16:48] activities ensuring safe accessible and efficient movement for all and fostering a Forward Thinking approach to develop [1:16:55] that involves the community so those are the goals that we're working towards um I do want to talk to you a [1:17:02] little bit about the sewage capacity issue um so this map um has been [1:17:07] provided to us by the engineering department and this shows the area where we have properties with sewage [1:17:14] constraints all of the orange um within this area um as you can see the Lincoln londondary area is only a very small [1:17:21] portion of the overall site that is constrained the site that's constrained does involve a significant portion of [1:17:27] Vernon it involves the high school um there are other properties within that as well um and then the purple [1:17:34] properties are are areas where that um constraint has been removed um through work that you have um done so the long [1:17:42] and the short is the capacity is nearly entirely utilized within this area um [1:17:48] one of the things that that means is that even uses that are currently Allowed by zoning could be denied [1:17:53] building permits um within that zone so within the industrial area for example [1:17:59] if a brewery came in had a high water usage that they needed for it they could be denied a permit even though it's [1:18:05] allowed by zoning similarly the entire Children's Campus is already zoned mixed use um they could by right propose [1:18:13] tomorrow to do mixed housing on that site however the capacity may not exist [1:18:19] for them to be permitted to actually be able to do that use so I think that was an important thing to understand is that [1:18:24] the zoning does not necessarily mean that you get the exact outcomes um because of those constraints as we [1:18:32] understand it there are essentially three options that have some viability [1:18:38] in both the short and the long term um one is that there is the possibility of [1:18:43] doing capacity shifts on site if you remove some buildings you could do [1:18:49] things in other buildings or other things like that you could shift uses between what's currently there [1:18:55] and different types of uses again depending on the use depending on the capacity and it gets into some very [1:19:02] specific things of where you know you got to calculate X number of square feet of restaurant space uses this number of [1:19:09] um they they're called remind me it's sa units um so Sac units and we'd have to [1:19:15] subtract from here and add there and so the second is that there is a possibility of a connection to minona [1:19:21] that could be explored that is a less expensive option however it has to be [1:19:27] worked through with motanka could it be a permanent option could it be a temporary option those are those are [1:19:33] issues the third would be an upgrade any which again would not just impact the Lincoln London Dairy area but this [1:19:40] larger Zone all right so the kind of long and the short of it from the [1:19:46] perspective of the lincol londonairy area is there is likely no use that we [1:19:52] could propose on Lincoln in the Parcels that are in Lincoln London da that by itself would make a cost [1:19:59] effective reason to upgrade the sewer this area is just not big enough there's [1:20:05] not enough property um to be able to go that high the issue of sewage capacity [1:20:12] for this area of Edina which is much larger than the area is likely going to be something that's going to need to be [1:20:18] addressed at a Citywide scale in your next comp planning cycle so that leaves [1:20:23] us in a kind of interesting place as folks that are trying to do um planning in this area right now so the way that [1:20:30] we are a we want to make sure that we're transparent with the community about these constraints and again the fact [1:20:37] that basically nothing that we can propose here is going to have a cost [1:20:42] benefit analysis that makes sense um to do this larger upgrade the way that we have talked with [1:20:49] our working group about moving forward is first of all there are a number of [1:20:56] recommendations that fit with the community priorities that do not really have [1:21:02] anything to do with development there's issues relating to parks and Gathering spaces public realm improvements [1:21:07] streetscape improvements um branding local improvements um even in some cases [1:21:15] potential regulatory improvements how is storm water being handled in the parking lots around the wetlands and how do we [1:21:22] make improvements in there so there's a large set of recommendations that we can make in the short term that these are [1:21:27] things that make sense regardless of the way that conversations about this happen in your comp planning cycle turn out [1:21:34] that these are recommendations that you can make from that point forward we have [1:21:39] a split where there's a few different directions that could be made and the way that we are thinking about it right [1:21:45] now is working to build a plan that presents that 20-year Vision that allows [1:21:53] us to have a sort of if then statements within it that will allow us to if it is [1:22:00] decided that sewage capacity is not going to be upgraded here is the vision that the community would present that is [1:22:05] the best representation of that Vision if that decision is made and then if it is made to upgrade that here is the [1:22:11] decision that would be made based on that um so it's a little more complicated from the perspective of [1:22:18] doing a small area plan in that it it is in some ways doing two small area plans [1:22:23] um that that are looking towards it but we think that it's really the most truthful and most effective way of [1:22:29] making sure that when these decisions get made in your next comp planning cycle you have a document that is set up [1:22:37] and implementable regardless of the direction that that that goes um so [1:22:42] that's what we've sort of talked about with the the group right now we are in the midst of development of the con plan [1:22:48] we or the concept plan we've actually had a a really wonderful meeting with our working group actually just last or [1:22:54] two nights ago I guess now um on Monday night where we we really started to dive into that we are working on developing [1:23:02] that with a goal of um being able to have a uh Community feedback session on [1:23:08] September 10th on that initial concept plan um and that will include some [1:23:13] strategies that are more bettered than others so in terms of things where we have a lot of consensus we'll be looking to get more you know did we get it right [1:23:21] did we hear what you said and then in some of those areas we know that we don't have consensus that meeting will [1:23:27] really be focused on what more consensus can we build we'll be looking at here are a number of different options how do [1:23:34] you feel about the ways that that might fit in um and we've been using a um live [1:23:40] interactive voting methodology in some of these meetings so we'll actually be able to do some things where all of the [1:23:46] community members will also be able to see where their co-c community members [1:23:51] stand on some of those issues as well that hope hopefully help us move towards um something that a lot of people are [1:23:59] excited about maybe not everybody you know we have to be honest about that but so that is kind of a summary of where [1:24:06] we're at at this point um I know I've just thrown a lot of information at you all but um excited for any feedback um [1:24:12] and yeah happy to happy to take your comments I really appreciate how you're handling this SE issue and I just want [1:24:20] to say go that's great that makes so much sense so thank you yeah [1:24:27] yes yeah I think it's really an interesting Journey for us you a first [1:24:32] time experience with you yeah yeah it's our first time it's a really good experience so far good [1:24:38] deal we got some good dates going here so thank you for that yeah I appreciate [1:24:44] that so I agree with um so thanks for for pulling this together um I just had [1:24:50] one question so there was um and this is one resident that uh expressed [1:24:59] disappointment that um in the goals so I think if you go back to slide six okay [1:25:05] that we were not including any type of my words [1:25:11] affordable housing sure and so I am just assuming that based on the priority [1:25:18] statements that we might argue promote a balanced approach to housing that respects Community needs and preferen is [1:25:25] it's encompassed in there yeah um as as noted that is the area where we [1:25:31] have the least consensus to date and so it is a little bit of a squishy priority [1:25:38] that allows us to continue that conversation in a way that has hopefully [1:25:45] meaningful impact I think similarly to talking about the sewage issue is our [1:25:51] belief is to try to provide as much information as we can that gives people [1:25:57] an ability to make an informed decision around it I think right now based on [1:26:03] conversations that I had as a part of the engagement there is a lot of confusion in the community about what [1:26:09] affordability might mean and so I think that's going to be one of the areas that we try to dig in more to really talk [1:26:16] about affordable for who and and so on and one [1:26:21] of the things that we we do we've actually recognize that's and let me just go back to the map of the area um [1:26:28] that's really kind of it's to me it's kind of fascinating so you know we're right on the border of minetonka and [1:26:35] Edina um the census tracks um on either side of the highway have a roughly equal [1:26:42] population they're both 5 to 6,000 people the OS side um it is roughly 90% [1:26:48] home ownership the minona side is roughly um a I believe it's about 60% of [1:26:56] units are rental um so it's kind of an interesting natural experiment what we [1:27:02] see in looking at the demographics is that the average incomes between the side with the rental and the side um [1:27:10] that is primarily home ownership there's only about a $30,000 um difference so the average [1:27:15] incomes in Ed are roughly 190 in mitaka it's roughly 160 um however what we do [1:27:23] see in a difference in the demographics is that the percentage of people under 40 is significantly higher on vatanka [1:27:30] side and the number of people of color is significantly higher on the minaka side so there's a question about housing [1:27:37] affordability there's also a question about housing access that even in market rate units um we are seeing more and [1:27:45] more very high income or what you would say is relatively High income people who whether it's because they have student [1:27:50] loans or other things are actually still not able to quite achieve home ownership and there's more need for units so [1:27:57] there's there's a wide variety of conversation that that needs to be [1:28:02] engaged aare that was my only point in mention that mentioning that so as you [1:28:08] guys kind of figured that out that you yeah we we are definitely going to be digging into that issue as well it's [1:28:13] just going along with the environmental theme that people love in this area what [1:28:19] what are the housing types that fit really well within that as well Mr chair [1:28:25] any 30 second observation um Consultants are amazing [1:28:30] the city staff are amazing uh we have great involved residents great other Commissioners um I would like to make [1:28:36] one point that it's interesting how every time we bring up any neighborhood that's adjacent to the 9M Creek cha [1:28:43] everyone says it's the gem of the community and there was severe push back from residents on that but a previous [1:28:48] city council really pushed that for new matter so I think it's important that the city you know pushes on these things [1:28:56] okay thank you thank you