Uh, >> I can see you behind the >> behind the screen there. >> Okay. Oh, I've got a green light. >> Well, good morning everybody. It is February 5th, 2026, 7:32 in the morning. And uh this is the Housing Redevelopment Authority meeting following on the heels of our city council meeting last night that ended uh ended before the 5th of February, but not much before. Um, so, uh, these meetings are being conducted in a hybrid fashion. I think we've talked about that. Some people are watching remotely. They can call in for, um, uh, public comment, um, if they so desire. Uh, and we don't have any public hearing this morning. So, that'll be the only opportunity. If it's something on the agenda this morning, uh, or, uh, scheduled for a future public hearing, those topics are off limits. Otherwise, call in with any concerns that you've got or express some from the audience. We have a few of our fellow residents here this morning. Uh, and having provided that information, I'll call the meeting to order and ask uh, manager Neil, our executive director Neil and his with that hat on to call the role. >> Thank you, your honor. Commissioner Risser >> here. >> Commissioner Jackson here. >> Commissioner Pierce >> here. Commissioner Agnu >> here. >> Chair Hublin >> here. Pledge of Allegiance is next. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. I'm just looking at Jennifer Benerro and thinking we should give her the employee of the year award just for did you even go home last night or did you get sleep in the office or um well you're remarkably chipper this morning for that short night you had the rest of us thought it was plenty short. Um all right we've got uh a meeting agenda. Is there a motion to approve the meeting agenda? >> So moved. >> Second. Got a motion by Commissioner Jackson. Second by Commissioner Pierce to adopt a meeting agenda. Any further discussions with regard to that topic? All those in favor of adopting the meeting agenda is published say I. >> I. >> I. Opposed. Carried. We have a meeting agenda. Something to work from. Uh, now it is community comment time. I'm going to put the numbers up on the screen just in case we have anybody calling in. uh if they can get that information up there and then ask if there's anyone in the audience that wishes to address the HR on a matter of concern to them that's not on the agenda this evening or scheduled for a future public hearing. I think I forgot to do that last night and uh had that young woman come up who wanted to talk about guns and >> you said it. Yeah, but you thanks to your prompt because I was talking to Scott having that sidebar. Anyway, uh nobody coming up from the audience. We have anybody online? I don't yet have anyone on the line, but because there is a brief delay in the broadcast, I'd recommend we give people about a minute or so to to call in. My clock shows that it's 7:36. I'll come back to you at 7:37 or when I have a caller, whichever's first. >> Okay. Yeah. Don't Don't pause too long. Yeah. Or check on you to see if you're even awake. >> A good point. >> I got my contacts in today, people. So, we're we're we're strong. Um it is now 7:37 and I still don't have a caller, so I think it's safe for you to move forward with the agenda. >> Okay. Uh thanks for that. Uh, executive director Neil, anything to report on on from the prior meeting? >> There is not. >> All right. Uh, next thing is the consent agenda. A singular item on the consent agenda. Is there a motion to adopt the uh, uh, H minutes of January 15, 2026? >> Some moved. >> Second. >> Commissioner Jackson moves. Commissioner Agnu seconds the adoption of the H minutes from January 15, 2026. Any further discussion? All those in favor of adoption of those of the HA minutes from January 15, 2026, say I. >> I. >> I. Opposed. Carried. Those H minutes from January 15, 2026 are adopted. Uh let's go now to the kind of the heart of the meeting and that is a a reminder of what we do with the tax increment financing uh and the goals that we have relative to it. our executive uh our our um economic development manager, Bill Nounorf, has this matter and may have some input on the next matter as well. So, >> good morning. >> Good morning. Uh so, this is really the the heart and soul of this H meeting this morning. Uh I wanted to pick up where we left off several months ago. uh you had asked that we that staff take a look into the policy regarding tax increment financing and provide a forum and an opportunity for for you all to discuss are we using it in the best way possible. Are there better ways to use it? Different ways to use it, no ways to use it. Um we started the conversation I believe sometime last summer and then we went through the presentation in September and we ran out of time to really have a robust conversation about that. So this morning I was going to just briefly walk through the presentation more like run through the presentation u and then have an opportunity for you guys to have your discussion um u happy to uh to answer questions um I don't have a lot uh of additional data at this point but um really an opportunity for you to identify any questions concerns that we should dive into in the future. Um so with that I'll I'll uh run through this. This is the same presentation that was delivered in September of 2025. Um, and as you mentioned then, TIFF TIFF has been uh a viable tool in Minnesota for 50ome years. Uh, it's been used in Adina since 1974. A lot of the major projects in our community uh were funded with TIFF roads, bridges, um uh Centennial Lakes, parking garages, 50th in France, Grand View, Edinburgh Park. Uh a lot of the whole Centennial Lakes development from the retail to the office to the park itself was all supported in different ways with TIFF. Uh more currently uh we have about a dozen uh current tiff districts that support a wide variety of projects from infrastructure to private investment to public infrastructure to affordable housing. In 19 uh in 19 in 2022 we rewrote the tiff policy altogether. For many years uh like many communities there was kind of an unwritten tiff policy. you worked with the best practice and you uh uh use flexible uh approaches to get it done. In around 2010, Adina adopted a a pretty simplified but effective policy. Uh but in 2022, we decided to be uh a little bit more robust in that policy and we it was rewritten all together to write down a lot of those best practices and protections that we provide in every tiff negotiation, but to put them in writing as something that we must do. And I distilled it just dist distilled it down to five questions. Uh we we talked a little bit about whether city policy is driving the need to use tiff. Uh the second one is whether or not there's a preferred order and timing to consider tiff. And I think that's one that we we might want to have further discussion on. We also talked about Adina's budget pillars and values and how those can be incorporated. uh whether TIFF should be used only for specific types of costs um and whether the strategy of using of using TIFF should be modified more dramatically to be programmatic rather than on a case-byase basis. So those are the way that we laid out the original conversation. I'm not going to uh go through all the additional detail. happy to if you have questions. But um we talked about a lot of the uh uh costs that do influence a development project and certainly entitlement costs. Uh foregone revenue from affordable units certainly makes a dramatic impact to someone's budget. Uh regarding the order and timing of TIFF, um this is one that I I think uh u we might want to talk about a little bit further. Um but today we we intentionally separate the city council having a zoning conversation because that's their role. That's their statutory role is zoning conversations and then separately the HR has funding conversations. So we've taken the the approach that we initially get the zoning done and if it passes that zoning test and it looks like it actually could be could happen uh then we talk about funding. you've in the past you've expressed a desire to flip those two uh because they really go hand in hand. Most every project needs zoning and funding. If they have one but not the other, it's still a dead project. Uh and so one of the easiest ways to to flip that order uh is to talk about the financing first. Uh just so that uh you know you're well aware of of that need. Uh we typically have done that in the past, but we've we've just touched on it. Um but that's something we can certainly talk about in more detail. There's another more complicated process that um delivers the same outcome with a lot more complex complexity. I just called it the alternate. I I don't know if we need to go there necessarily, but that order and timing is something we can consider. And then with our budget uh pillars and our budget values, uh staff has been trying to incorporate those into more and more of our uh expense decision- making and and where we where we invest our tax dollars. And certainly we can continue to have those conversations. And uh regarding the type of things expenses that tiff can be used to pay for those are uh regulated by state law uh using a dina's best practice. We follow state law but we're actually a little bit more stringent uh than state law allows. We found that some expenses while they're allowable in the state code, we don't really think they're necessary here. Um, but I would still encourage us that flexibility is key. Every project is different and um, uh, and that's one of the one of the nice things about the TIF policy and the TIFF law is that it is flexible. I mean, there's clear guard rails, but it allows staff and you all as decision makers to be flexible to address changing needs for changing times. And the final thing we talked about was whether whether or not we should rethink our use of tax increment financing altogether. Rather than considering it on a case-byase basis, as we've done, I would argue highly effectively for 50ome years, we could come up with a special program tiff for affordable housing, tiff for public roads and public plazas, tiff for redevelopment infrastructure. Um the while that's more predictable, the challenge is that once you lure that carrot in front of a developer, they're going to apply for it. And so I think our request for TIFF would increase. And we've always we've never proactively offered TIFF, uh at least in my time here. Um we've always used it in response to a failure in the marketplace or a gap in the marketplace. So while this would be a more delineated uh process, I think it would result in the increased use of tiff and um I try to use tiff as minimal as possible. So that's all the topics that we covered and um I turn it up back to you Mr. Chair for discussion and questions. >> All right. Thank you. Um yeah, from my colleagues I ask if you have any questions or comments. Uh questions for Mr. Nuendor for questions for staff generally uh or thoughts about um should we have tiff as a tool? Uh should it how should it be used if it we do have it as a tool um or programmatic more flexible you some of the questions that manager Nandorf has raised um I think we know that we it represents about 1.6% 6% of our tax base if my memory serves me correctly and and um so compared to other cities we don't use it much and and we've been pretty cautious in its use. So um I don't know if folks have thoughts commissioner is going to lead us off this morning. >> Thank you. Yeah, happy to >> the youngest and most resilient of all of us is going to lead off. >> Happy to get started. Um, I might not go line by line and answer all the questions, but some of my immediate thoughts are, you know, I really continue to value TIFF as a tool within our toolbox that we can elect to use um for specific limited projects across the community. Um, limited being, you know, what I think the mayor just said of, you know, looking at the totality of how we're using it, um, is still pretty reserved. And so a couple of things, you know, I could see even implementing like a a maximum of not to exceed, I don't know, 3% of the tax base or something like that. Um just to make sure that we're kind of thinking about what what seems reasonable um to not go over. Um the other thing, the only other change I I do want to actually make at this time is regarding timing. Um, there have been a couple of times where I felt like I wasn't made aware of or knew that a specific project needed TIFF funding financing until it felt later in the process. And I think it's important as we're making decisions to be able to evaluate on the totality. And the way we kind of break it up right now doesn't make as much sense to me. So, that's the one thing I for sure want to see us talk about and potentially change, but otherwise, I I do value it. I don't think that it's being overused. Um, I think you present some interesting ideas of should we have something that's specific to affordable housing and and and the like. I'm open to more discussion. Right now, my reaction is it seems to be working pretty well. I don't know that we need to um necessarily pivot, but I I welcome the discussion. So, thank you. >> Thanks for thanks for those leadoff comments. Uh member Pierce Council or Commissioner. Um thanks, Mr. Chair. So, one question. Um in one of the slides the you said we limit the size and duration of TIFF, but what does that mean? >> Um sure. So a good example uh so the size of of a tiff district um up at 44th in France we created a small tiff district where the Laurian apartments was built. There was a a a push at that time to include the entire intersection. >> Okay. >> Um and we ended up creating a tiff district that I think is one acre. >> There was a push to make it about five acres in hopes that something else might happen. My my professional preference is to use tiff when you know something is very likely to happen rather than hoping for it to happen. So we only created the tiff boundaries to include that one parcel rather than hoping to include more. >> That I I believe protects the surrounding tax bases for the city, the school, etc. Also in that case um the tiff law allows tiff districts to be established for anywhere from 8 to up to 25 26 years. Um uh in that particular case um the developer asked for a 25-year tiff district. We ran their numbers. They didn't need 25 years. So we created a 15-year district uh which would return the full base to to the taxing agencies much much faster. Again, the developer wasn't so happy with our decision, but by our analysis, we independently analyzed their numbers. They didn't need that much, and we wanted to protect our community. So, that's how we established the duration and the size. >> And so, is that um No, you answered it. Okay. Um so, I I don't have any issue with using TIFF as a tool. My challenge is because you can't like argue or debate that enormous tax capacity um that that these districts have not created enormous tax capacity for the community and benefit, right? Um, I think for me the challenge is I'd like to see that financial benefit go into the general fund or wherever those dollars are are are intended to go sooner than they do. So it um the comment of size if you're talking about boundary get it right that makes sense. Duration 25 years seems not limited to me. Right? That seems like a long time for that um to restrict those funds from right that seems like a long time to me. 15 years seems like a long time. Now if you tell me well James it takes three years to do a project and so relatively speaking in that context 10 to 15 years is not a long time. Okay, I get that. But my only ask is that we try to figure out a way that we can um accelerate getting that tax capacity back to the general fund. However, we can do that um is the only that's really that's the only um question or concern that I have with how we're using it. Great. How about the timing issue that Kate mentioned? Has that been an issue for you at all? Um, >> you'd like to know about it sooner or the potential use of it sooner? >> I Yeah, I would like to to know about the potential use of it sooner. Um, for sure that would be beneficial. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. Commissioner Jackson. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, um, actually now I have three things and I'll tell you all three of them and that they're but they're different. So, first of all, in your end of the year report last time, you talked about the history of TIFF going back to 1974 and you had a quote which I was unaware of that it looks like we've been using TIFF the same way consistently for nearly 50 years. Um, and I I' I'd like to just kind of review that again. Um, the second question is again unrelated. Um, it feels like using TIFF for land price is a circular process that because there's tiff available, they can spend more on the land price. and how with accelerating land prices both for housing and for um retail, we're really a very expensive place to uh do business or to to be. Um and I want to explore a little bit how um the use of tiff for land prices accelerates the the land price. Um, and that kind of goes to the timing question too, which I I agree with my colleagues that it's probably a good idea to flip that middle part where we can know that TIFF is on in the discussion before we make the zoning decision because um I have been surprised um by that saying, "Oh, okay. Well, we passed the zoning this. Oh, wait a minute. Now you want money." And um I didn't like being surprised on that. And then my third question kind of goes to what member Pierce was saying and that is um the duration of these uh uh T tiff districts that um I'd like to kind of understand how the duration of the TIF district then is uh affects our ability to pull tiff dollars for affordable housing. Um, and it seems to me that maybe we've done that. And I'd just like a little clarification on the that pooling for affordable housing um, beyond the specific project that we have um, given TIFF to. So those are my three questions and uh, you can answer them in the order you'd like. >> All right. Um, great. Thank you. Uh, so regarding the history, um, I'm a I'm an expert historian for the last 15 to 20 years. For the last 26 to or 25 to uh 35 years, I'm pretty good. Beyond that, I'm making some best guesses. I don't know any specifics about what we did in the 1970s or 19 early 80s. Um but looking at the outcomes I know that we've used tiff since 1974 um our we've used it primarily especially in the recent decades uh uh as a reimbursement uh where the we work handinhand with a private developer they make a a a proposal get a project going uh we use tiff as a reward so to speak it's not a reward but it's um uh upon completion We give them the tiff note so it keeps all the financial risk in their court. Um if they fail to deliver, they don't get a penny from the city. If they fail to build the project, they don't even get a tiff note. So we've used that predominantly for decades. Um ear in the earliest days, we used tiff um uh as a public finance tool to build the public roads at um at Centennial Lakes. Remember that was a gravel pit. There weren't roads. So, I'm presuming that the city frontfunded and issued debt uh pledging tiff as the collateral um uh to build those roads to get something started to convert that gravel pit into office and retail and and uh home of homes, luxury homes, affordable homes in a park. Uh we did something similar with the parking garages at 50th in France where we pledged tiff issued city debt to build public parking garages and then had all the private development happened to pay to create the tax increment. Um so in those earliest days I would say that a dino was riskier. We were bolder because we had a clean slate and there wasn't a lot happening at the Hedber Gravel Pit other than gravel. Um uh um but as we've matured as a community, we've um been more cautious. We've also become our commercial areas have become much more desirable where the city doesn't have to be as bold. Um uh so we've used TIFF in a variety of ways, but for the last several decades, the TIFF note and reimbursing the developer for delivering what they promised is how we've preferred to use it. and that still is our preference. It's not the only way, but it's the preferred way. >> So, that's a very good answer on how uh my question actually went to why. >> Oh, >> and in that presentation, you had a document I believe that was from the 1970s. Um that not in the one today, but the one that that you um gave last time with your year-end report. And it struck me because the argument's been made that tiff is only for blight. But the policy that we had in the 1970s looked pretty much identical for the why part of it that we do today. And that is to encourage something a little bit more elaborate, grander, um, you know, bigger, more valuable than would otherwise have been forward. And that really I I kind of almost fell out of my chair when you said that because um the narrative has been oh well tip has been perverted from its original use. But in Edina our original use was not here is a rundown set of buildings where there's crime and graffiti and dangerous pits that people fall in kind of things. It's we have the opportunity to redevelop a piece of land. we're going to do something uh more ambitious, maybe that's the word, than would otherwise have been done because we have TIFF available as a tool. And I was really surprised by that. And also kind of um reassured that we've been that has been the history of our city going back 50 years like I said um to use it in that manner rather than like I said rundown buildings and and blight. Um it's not a crime fighting tool. It is a um I don't know tool of ambition really that has been successful. >> Thank I I apologize I completely misunderstood your question. Um what you're referring to is I think the 1977 Southeast development southeast of Dina redevelopment project area objectives and goals. Yes. And one of the key goals in that uh you know the fundamentals are connect neighborhoods with roads, sidewalks and bike trails um uh affordable housing um modern utilities and things like that and to deliver a higher caliber of construction than the marketplace. Marketplace might be aiming for a C. We're aiming for a A minus B+. Um A+ is even better, but um and and that is embodied in that document. And that's that was used as the guiding document for Edinburgh Park and that whole development. Um uh and for for the entire Centennial Lakes from the office to the multifamily to the retail to the park. There was a movie theater there for many years. That's been replaced, I think, with a Whole Foods uh most recently. Um but there's been a lot of uh ways that that has been delivered and that was a benchmark of that initial goal of that initial plan and it's still one of the key objectives. >> Okay. Thank you. Um and then uh uh briefly uh regarding uh inflating land prices, uh that's one thing I'm always very cautious of. Um uh because if you if if you do not check the the land deal, um you know, you might in you might uh unintentionally inflate land prices around you. Um uh and that hurts our redevelopment goals. Um, so I've I've offered caution on this on several projects where I thought the land deal was a little bit too high. Um, um, we always do check to and we look at comps. Um, uh, we do our do our own check and ask we ask the developer to give us their comps and then we do our own, I guess, uh, ask and verify. Um, and in some cases, well, in all cases, the um, you know, I've been happy with the outcome. I I will say the the one project that I thought we might be in danger of inflating the land price was the Mason Green project. Um, the in order to have the seller sell that property rather than do whatever else he was going to do with it, the developer had to pay significantly higher than the assessed value. And that was my biggest cautious caution on that project. Um, uh, in that in that case, I think the developer has done everything they said they would and the outcomes have exceeded where we thought we would be. And so my caution, I'm glad that we considered it. Um, but it has not resulted in an inflated value there. Um, and then regarding uh using TIFF for pooling, that's one of the options that is embodied in state law. Um, in some of our tiff districts, we do include affordable housing. Um, and if there's any uh if there's any funds that are not previously needed for paying off a developer note or city debt or interest or any of the city's administrative costs, we can choose to pull that for affordable housing. Um, it's just one of the things that comes in in the state law. We do that in some cases, but not all cases. Um I think we did when we rewrote the policy, uh I think we did add a provision that said any um excess left when the tiff is is over shall be pulled, but it's something we opt into. Uh and then that it's always the the board's discretion whether or not we want to do that. But as a policy, we we do do that because we've heard on many occasions. It's very difficult to identify a source to fund affordable housing. We've had many discussions over the last several years about ways to fund it. Using pool tiff is um not always the most effective way, but it's the easiest way to get something started. >> Terrific. Thank you, >> Mr. I'm going to just acknowledge that I'm the one who's viewing TIFF differently from other people. But um with that, I do want to say I think there are things that we could do that would help build transparency. And when we do use TIFF dollars for affordable housing, be it structural or programmatic, because we do it across the board, whether it's building new apartment units or providing down payment assistance, I think it's really important to have figures. For example, when we're investing tiff in apartments, what is the cost per square footage? Um what is that breakdown? And I I think we really need to have that that's basic. Um I am concerned about how affordable is defined and you know I understand with our recent um heroes program it's 110% AMI which across Henipin County um you know you're looking at roughly 60% of the people contributing to something that is benefiting people who have maybe more than they do And so it's an equity issue that I'm concerned about there. So I don't know if there's a way that we could put in more of an analysis about who is paying and who is who is not. The other thing I think um the way we're using TIFF and I really want to underscore that Commissioner Jackson um and that dialogue about the origins of TIFF and Edina I think that was incredibly insightful because it it really is not for blight. Um I have a little anecdote. I was in the car with my dad going down France Avenue and we went past the new Enclave building that is going up in Minneapolis and my dad looked at it and he said, "That's great. It's going to keep property taxes low." And I thought, "You're right, Dad. It's not tiff." Um, so I think there's benefits to tiff. My big concern is that it is so frequently combined with zoning. we reszone and in the process of reszoning it's usually going to PUD um that singular parcel is getting benefits that surrounding parcels do not and so when we talk about what does tiff do to land prices and land costs and opportunities for development um if there's so much development that's concentrated on one specific site you know what does that do to the sites around it and I haven't really had and I don't know if we can actually answer that. So, I'm not asking you to respond to that at 8:06 in the morning. I'm just speaking more than asking. Um, but and I was thinking that what you were looking for was questions that you weren't going to respond to on the fly. That I mean, which is good you're doing that, but you know, maybe these are things we want to think about a little bit longer. I um do think that often some members of the public feel they do not have much of a voice in terms of how tiff is used and um the process we can have public hearings. I know um Sandy Carlson came forward and requested that uh that that happen before we do any more investment in the um proposed underpass. And I think it would be really good if that did happen. Um because a lot of people are really thinking about that project and I think um there needs to be an opportunity for people to participate before more investment is made on that. So, um, it's the unspent tiff and there's such a range. We look at our policy for tiff. It doesn't necessarily encompass the reality that it doesn't have to be economic development. Um, that it can be down payment assistance. And so, I don't know if we should be including that in our policy. I don't really want to go down that path because I kind of, you know, I have a lot of concerns about using it in ways that don't pertain to construction. Um, so those are my early morning after a late night ramblings. Take them. I really don't have any specific thing you need to respond to. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for those thoughts, too. Um, yeah. Should we have TIFF as a tool in our toolbox? I think it seems like we uniformly think it we should. Some difference of opinion as to how it gets used. U I think you've been a good steward of during the time you've been here of of uh deciding you and Stephanie, you know, when it's potentially to be used. But uh I think all of us would like the timing of the discussion of the use of tiff to occur a little bit earlier. uh because it could uh and it also goes that you know the timing of it goes to this issue that member council or commissioner Brisser just raised is that if you if you know there's tiff potentially coming at the time you're doing a potential zoning decision and you've got public hearings going on um then people can voice their opinions then at that point in time we don't have to worry about subsequent public hearings that don't really fall in a in a process. So, that's one possible solution there, I think. But that that the timing of the discussion of use of tiff has been something that's um been of concern to me too because I'd like to know or it could in in as you think about whether to reszone for example the the fact that they that the developer or the project may need some tiff assistance and why would be it'd be good to have that as part of the total package of consideration at the at the time you were contemplating reszoning. So, um, but from a general standpoint, you know, I we we we have differing opinions on this, but, um, I I feel like one of the big benefits of TIFA is that it lets us accomplish long-term benefits for the city and build projects of higher value and increase the tax base to levels that would not otherwise achieve with normal organic growth over the life of a tiff district. And and because we can think that way and we've done some of these projects that Macy's as an example, it might have been $100 million project on there. Now we got a $250 million project. Do we have to be patient until that tiff patient until that tiff district ends? Yeah, we do. But it also takes a lot of pressure off the levy because there's other things that we might want to be doing that could only be done by raising the levy that we're very cautious about doing. And so TIFF gives us another tool to be able to use to avoid putting more pressure on our residents from a levy standpoint. Um, and then on your slide six, uh, the question was, is city policy driving the need for to use tiff more frequently? I personally don't think so. I think it's it's just the times we live in and the times that change as we go through life, you know. I mean you there was a period of time where the developer uh was you know when we were having an affordable housing requirement as part of a multif family development they were able to do those units in their themselves without the assistance of the city. Now we've gotten to the point where because of the the high costs of the things that you mentioned on slide six we've had to think about uh using using tiff in a different way. We've had to we've had to make a bigger investment. And I think to the point member Russer was making I think Commissioner Russer uh my recollection is that we always look at the cost per door. uh you know you can look at it I suppose from a square footage standpoint but we typically use that uh cost per door uh comparative one project to another to see uh internally whether it makes any sense uh or to advise us have you guys advise us as to whether it makes any sense uh so that we can make a well-reasoned decision. So, um, for me it's stay the course. Um, but look at that timing issue that Commissioner Agnu started out that her conversations with and, uh, just be continue to be judicious in the use of TIFF. But let's talk about it earlier. Commissioner Pierce. >> Thanks, Mr. Chair. Um I I do think so I hadn't heard before. So I appreciate your comment that without um TIFF in a particular instance would put more pressure on the levy. So I hadn't thought about that. But I think the way I internalize that, you're saying if there are projects that we want to get done, whether it's sidewalks or whatever that we are going to do as a city, those things still have to be funded somehow. And so if you don't use TIFF to do that, then we're raising the levy, right? Um so in principle, I I get that. Um I think so this is not just TIFF comments I should say. So so I think having a bigger conversation of how do we strike the right balance so that we can have a sustainable levy. So both things can be true. Right. So I think that I think it's incumbent on us as well to figure out and this is actually what I think my issue is as we layer out policies on top of each other. They raise the costs of development and then the developer has to close the gap and they ask for tiff as part of that closing the gap. And so the timing issue is important, but I kind of assume, you know, anything that's bigger than four floors is going to ask for tiff. And so I'm actually surprised when something doesn't when someone does it like opus. We don't need tiff. Really? Oh, okay. I'm actually surprised by that. Um, and so I think we have to look at the compounding effect of all of our policy. So when I asked Enclave that question, if you didn't get TIFF for that development, what would change? And Mr. Brahma went through a whole list of, well, you're asking me to do this for affordable housing, you're asking me to do this for sustainability, you're asking me to do all these things, and so if I don't get TIFF, he wasn't taking them all out, but it was a subset of what they would have done. And so I do think there's this broader conversation of are our policies causing the costs to be higher and we can make a decision that says yeah they are but we want that for whatever reason right but at least then we're being we're leaning into it from a transparency standpoint and a decision taken that we're that's what we're doing. So I think it's the compounding effect of our policies that are driving the costs and tiff is just one of the ways that developers close the gap. One thing I forgot to mention was I think you should continue this policy or strategy and that is that pay as you go note where there's no risk on the city. >> Yeah. And the risk is on the developer to do what they said they were going to do to for us to be able to get the things that we think are important in a project to enhance the value of the project and and the really the value of the town overall. You know, the desiraability of us as a place to live. Many of these projects we've used, TIFF, have done exactly that. They've taken us to another level uh and really has enhanced the city in addition to enhancing the project itself. So, Commissioner Jackson. >> Yes. Thank you. So, as Commissioner Pierce was talking, I was thinking of that pyramid of discretion and how simple and easy it is to understand this is where we are. This is how much discretion we have. Something similar to that of these are the city policies that are affecting this development and just colorful, you know, green, yellow, white, blue. That's what this is. this is the chunk of um of where it's going or just even this is the stack of policies that we're looking at. So a simple graphic um that we could understand these are the things that we're asking the developer to do that are contributing to the cost. Um I think that might be just another way of thinking about it because after a while the words start uh you know blending all together but a simple picture would be helpful. >> We can do that type of analysis. Sure. Yes, Commissioner Richer. >> I also I do appreciate you on slide six having the greater Southdale area design guidelines and it would also be interesting to find out from developers, you know, at the very beginning stages, maybe even before they are understanding the desire we have for them to kind of carve it up into squares. Um, what would they do if they didn't have to do that? And it's possible if they didn't have those restrictions, they could provide affordable housing a little bit more easily. Um, I I am really becoming more and more concerned that the guidelines are stying developers and really creating a challenge. And it would be I keep looking back at the Henipin County Library which is so beautiful you know and and relieved that we didn't say no you must do what we said in our guidelines because that would never happen but what you know you kind of wonder what would you have built if you didn't have to do this so >> correlary to that one is I've wondered about this is is as we as you think about these projects that come forward uh and they're at that very uh early stage. Are you able to think about what the city would want out of a project or is that something that evolves over time? Uh because it seems like it it puts more pressure on our forward thinking at the front end of a project and uh and you've been you you and Stephanie are good at that. you know, your whole team is good at that in terms of thinking about what's the city want out of this. But sometimes that's I would I would guess that that's a bit evolutionary that as you go along and you're looking at a project, you're thinking, yeah, here's what we could do from a city standpoint. And so that kind of compounds a problem of knowing at the front end that whole timing issue, you know, uh, and I don't know how to solve that problem to to have the vision you need to have when the developer first comes in or shortly after they come in and you start talking about a zoning change and what we'd like to see in a project because we haven't we don't know anything about it yet and so we haven't been able to provide you with any input on what we'd like to So, how do we solve that that problem of us getting our vision to you earlier too so that you know what we're thinking about? >> Yeah, it's always a challenge and and redevelopment is always going to be an iterative process. Uh some developers are are are open to that, others are completely opposed to it. Some developers walk in, they want to build this fivetory thing and it has to be this shape with this many units and that's it's this or nothing. Um, a lot of those get get turned down. Um, but most developers walk in much more open-minded and much more flexible. Um uh so yeah, there definitely definitely is an iterative process, but if we if we flip-flop the funding piece, uh and bring that introduce that to you to this board earlier in the process, we've at least alerted you that there's a cost consequence for some of these changes. Um, for example, the developer might say that he needs six stories to make the project pencil. And uh, as a some people might say, well, no, it has to has to only be four stories. Well, it could be four stories if the city wants to kick in several million dollars to make the project pencil. Um, there's a costbenefit type of conversation that that can happen. So I I think that iterative process is I think frankly it works really well with community input, planning commission input, city council input, staff input. Um but I think if we simply interject the conversation about cost earlier. Um, not that that should change a planning commissioner or a city council member's decision about zoning, but as this as you make a final decision about the bigger picture project, knowing that cost is a factor, I think, is vital. Uh, we've brought that to you, but we can bring it to you earlier in this in the scenario. >> Okay. For sure. >> So, I I want to u respond to Commissioner Risser's question. Um, I talked to someone who is formerly a developer and uh, she mentioned that one of the big costs for a building is the HVAC system. And so if you were to ask a developer on a big lot, not subdividing it, they would like to consolidate the HVAC system. They would like surface parking instead of buried parking. You know, the the cost is exponentially higher to bury the parking. Um, and a surface lot is the cheapest way. So, if you were to ask the developer, get rid of the subdivision, and they're looking at maximizing the profit. They're going to have a big parking lot and one big massive building, that's the default for uh using land because it makes the most money at the least cost. Um and so I think if we want to have incorporate the idea of walkability to bring the buildings forward into the um to the France Avenue or whatever we are and and sort of hide the parking. Um those are things that are going to cost the developer money. Um but I think that we just have to know in the back of our heads the two biggest costs are making multiple buildings instead of one and surface parking versus a ramp or even more expensive buried parking. So, those are things right away that would probably go away um if we ask the developer, you know, what what's going to cost you money. So, just to put those facts out there. >> All right, we've got some other I think we're way behind schedule, like a half hour. >> Um >> discussion. >> Anyway, so thank you for that. And u manager Neil, you're taking the next matter. You want Bill to take up? >> Bill's going to do this, please. >> Yeah. And this is just a quick one. So, under uh the executive director's uh report, just to update, uh uh we are at the point where we're ready to issue the certificate of certificate of completion for one of the Spark grants or the Spark loans, I'm sorry. Uh this is the one uh we entered into this contract in 2023. If they were easy, they would have been done a long time ago. Um, but this is the underground uh uh the basement bar restaurant with the music club at 50th in France. Um, that is now open for business and it's been open for a little while. Um, but uh I went through all their numbers, went through the went through their paperwork. uh they met the obligations in the um uh in the agreement and we're ready to issue the certificate of of completion which means that then I'll submit a check request to finance and we'll issue them the the loan. Um so I just wanted to have that on your radar. Um and we followed our typical policy enter agreement enter into an agreement the developer does what they say they're going to do and then we follow through on our end and issue them that that forgivable loan. So, that's my only report really. No, no need for action. It's just to keep you up to date. >> Okay. What What are they calling the place? >> Oh, it's called NMA Hi-Fi Lounge and it's um it's right next to Paharito uh across from the Carnival Bar next to Harriet and Alice at 50th in France. >> Okay. >> Um the the doorway is uh uh right by Carnival uh in that back in that alleyway right by the plaza. Okay. >> Yeah. So, it's pretty nice. Check it out. >> Yeah. All right. Thanks for that. Um, any comments from HR members? Executive director? Commissioner Risser? >> Just a thought and, um, this has to do with the LAA money that we awarded several months ago with the demand or the need for rental assistance. Director Hawinson, if there was any money that was not spent on naturally occurring affordable housing, I'm just wonder I'm wondering if there was any that didn't go to that that could possibly be shifted to rental assistance. It may already be tied up and I'm sorry to ask like just and you don't have to answer right now. It could be >> I have an answer. >> Oh, okay. Um the $205 have already been committed in full. Um, however, we do know that we are getting 2026 in July. So, since not all the $205 have gone out the door yet, it takes a while to spend down that money, I was um going to seek authority from you to pre-authorize 2026 um using what's in our coffers now and backfilling it once we get the new dollars. Um, VEP still has emergency rental assistance remaining. They, um, have enough to get through the next couple months. Um, but that is something that I want to explore with you is, uh, pre-approval, a forward approval. >> Oh, good, good question. Good, thanks for being anticipatory on that. Okay. Um, so we got a little more work to do on another matter here. So, uh, is there a motion to adjourn the HR meeting this 5th day of February, 2026? >> So, moved. >> Second. >> We got a motion by Commissioner Agnu, second by Commissioner Pierce to adjourn the meeting of the HA this Thursday, February 5th, 2026 at 8:27 a.m. Any further discussion? All those in favor of adjournment, say, "I." >> I. Opposed? Carried. H stands adjourned.