[0:07] I at that ordinance from Portland Oregon a lot easier to [0:13] read looked at that one that's probably do yeah recording okay very good yeah well [0:19] it's 5:31 let's call to order the city council work session U meeting for Tuesday February 18th 2025 uh 5:30 p.m. [0:29] 5:31 now and um let's call the role sorry that um council member U is [0:39] absent um council member Jackson here council member Pierce here council member rer here mayor hogland here uh we [0:46] had one meeting topic tonight and it was the tree protection ordinance and [0:52] uh week or so maybe 10 days ago you you you you handled the topic [0:58] because uh you've been talking to some of the residents and they've got concerns and they got expressed in [1:04] different ways and and so um I was also kind of waiting for Dave Kendall to [1:09] finish his uh attorney client privilege memo and I thought that might his [1:15] recommendations might be reflected in in a proposed amendment to the ordinance uh so I was waiting to see [1:21] that uh and so then we saw that uh those potential changes to the [1:27] ordinance and I thought well I see all kinds of other things in here that need work to make it a better ordinance and [1:33] then I read all the materials I thought oh my word uh so I'm going to just hit [1:39] the pause button right there and switch over to Scott because we had a total [1:44] miscommunication so this isn't going to be a detailed technical thing tonight I sent Scott a uh draft I asked [1:54] some of the people that were on undeveloped lots that were developing Lots over on Dakota Trail and their [2:01] landscapers I said well if you've got ideas on what you want to see for the ordinance let me know so they they [2:07] worked up their ideas on the tree ordinance and sent them to me I forwarded them to Scott just to look at [2:13] that all of a sudden became my ownership of that thing and that was my idea on what a tree ordinance ought to look like [2:18] it wasn't anything close to what I thought a tree ordinance ought to look like I just thought it was one landscaper and one homeowner's idea so [2:24] anyway we had a meeting this morning Scott go ahead so anyway um when I received that information from the mayor [2:31] I it it felt like it appeared to be here are some here are some amendments I'd [2:37] like to make to the that's how I read it but that's not how he meant it um so that's my I that's my bad I apologize [2:44] for that um because it really then that created this Cascade of of of [2:51] misdirection from that point on right it's it's hey people take a look at what the mayor's proposing let's give them [2:58] some feedback because we're sure the council's going to want to have some discussion around around this proposal [3:04] um so we did get some some City attorney feedback we got some commission feedback and we got staff feedback however all [3:10] that feedback is not isn't relevant because it's not on the proposal that [3:15] that the mayor wanted to make to you tonight so I apologize for that um so instead of having a a a session of of [3:23] word smithing and and things like that it's more of a session tonight of of [3:28] just having some more disc discussion about what are you hearing about the tree ordinance what what are some concerns you might have about it how [3:35] might we apply it uh with how might we apply some changes to it in the future so that's we wanted to this was the only [3:42] thing that was on the agenda for tonight and thought maybe this is a good way we can make lemonade out of a lemon we got [3:49] Luther and Tom here that's good Perry's sick with covid oh dear not available any not available online either and he [3:57] wrote the memo you know and after I read a myself I thought oh my God I got to go back to the energy environment [4:02] Commission on they look like a medium because they think what's wrong with that mirror he listens to one resident and then he comes up with this cockeyed [4:09] idea on a ordinance uh which wasn't my intention at all but in in in working on the [4:16] ordinance before I looked at all this other stuff that was a Cascade [4:21] from my miscommunication with Scott uh it caused me to you know be [4:28] working through this tree ordinance and thinking well wait a minute here based on the conversations I've had in different neighborhoods involving both [4:34] neighborhoods that are fully developed and and then those lots over there by way of example on Dakota trail that were [4:40] undeveloped it caused me to think about those this issue in two those two categories and so as I was going through [4:47] the ordinance and I'm going to just use this by way of example so when I when I'm looking through the ordinance and [4:53] you can see I think that you've all got copies of it now at the bottom where defin you get into definitions protected [4:59] tree means uh any tree that is structually sound unhealthy well we don't even Define a [5:05] healthy tree and the reason I get to thinking about and seized on that word right off the bat was because I had a [5:10] guy over in the morning side uh who did a pterodon rebuild that tore down some [5:17] trees on his property that he and his arborer said were unhealthy and our folks said they were healthy and there [5:23] still I think his money is still probably an escrow and so I thought well [5:29] instead of having this debate over what's healthy what's not healthy maybe we should be trying to define a healthy [5:34] tree in the ordinance so that's one thing for poor old Dave to think about I suppose uh and I did come up I looked [5:41] online today and you can see on page two there I took a stab at what a healthy tream means but it's pretty [5:48] vague and then um we can [5:54] um think about some of the other comments from over on those undeveloped Lots um [6:02] um I got to thinking about well as and as I read Dave me when these are kind of questions in the abstract [6:13] uh what current information do we have to rely on I put this in a footnote in one of the places here a footnote four I [6:20] think how are how do the city cost get determined on trees um what current information do we [6:27] have to rely on relative to the cost of replac basement trees uh how do we know that and here's [6:33] another issue that came up over on Dakota Trail is the landscaper said I can't get trees [6:41] of the of the caliper that the ordinance requires none of the nurseries have [6:47] trees that big that's a complaint that a lot of people have been articulating it's also very costly and [6:55] apparently the rate of survival for the old trees is less than if you put in a [7:02] younger tree that's what the landscaper r on Dakota Trail argued too yeah so and [7:07] so he had different ideas and that came through and H their memo of what they would how they would Define a tree so [7:13] that anyway that's to your point Julie that's one other thing we need to be thinking a little bit about so you you [7:19] want I'm sorry you want General feedback about the topic yeah um so I'll I'll give some [7:29] I didn't like this to begin with and I I like the idea of protecting trees [7:39] sustainability I love the idea of that but the way we we went about it I felt [7:46] it missed three things and so I look for balance and I felt there mayor just gave [7:53] a couple of examples of where I think things are were a little bit out of balance the escro is a great example um [8:00] the way we this policy sought to determine um how much should be put in [8:07] escrow I felt like that was out of balance um with it um whatever policy we [8:13] come up with it can't be punitive and there are elements of this [8:18] one that felt punitive to people especially if you have to put a 100 [8:24] Grand in escro and you may or may not get it back and you can't get the trees [8:30] to um to meet the expectation if you take out a you know a certain diameter [8:37] tree and so it got to a point where it just felt to me like it was punitive or [8:43] it could be punitive if it was perfect right it's a new build we go out we do [8:50] the survey we say all right you can build out to this spot and if you take these trees down you have to replace [8:57] those trees and it's a few trees here or there I think then it works if it was [9:04] that case um but I just think the range of how it would get implemented was too [9:10] broad and it made me feel like there are instances where it could be it could feel [9:16] punitive um and then the last thing I say we have to be clear on the outcomes [9:21] and this I know this sounds funny but we're not clear the outcomes of this and [9:26] so I'll give an example um and this is 180 de different from the [9:33] option that we went forward with and so I'm not recommending this I'm just giving this as something that I think [9:41] would be more clear from an outcome perspective if we had a preservation [9:48] fund that said its purpose is to protect trees in our community and we're going [9:56] to seek to protect these types trees and let's just pick oak trees of a certain [10:02] size and then we go out we survey those in the community and we tag them and we [10:08] say those trees are the trees that we're trying to protect and then you go through your process of if somebody's [10:13] building a house and it impacts those trees um then you go through your process of figuring out what to do about [10:21] those trees um and so there are communities that have established um preservations like like [10:29] that that actually every homeowner pays into like it's part of your property tax [10:36] goes to protect this the these trees and um to [10:43] me that would feel like then we're being clear that we care about and I'm totally [10:48] making this up we care about White Oaks that have this diameter and are in these [10:55] areas and then get rid of all the volunteers trees you want right we want to protect these [11:02] trees that are this age and of this type [11:07] uh would be really Crystal Clear um and then instead [11:12] of this and these are my words but it felt like it would be punitive to [11:17] someone um just saying we want a portion of our property [11:23] taxes every year to go in to protecting building this fund [11:29] to go protect these trees um and if we [11:35] did something like that right it could be $100 out of everybody's property tax [11:40] go to do this um versus saying well we're going to put this on the backs of [11:46] of um people that are building new homes and the thing that really got to me that [11:52] day is the comment was made and we were talking about a particular homeowner [11:58] well hey it's a $2 million house they can afford to do this and when we're [12:04] like we're getting into a a position where we're starting to have verbiage [12:11] like that I just think it misses the point it has nothing to do with how much somebody can afford the outcome is we [12:18] want to protect these types of trees and this is the mechanism that we go about doing it and we want to make sure it's [12:25] fair to everybody because we're trying to do this is for the good of the entire [12:31] Community not just a particular uh lot if you will so that was that was kind of [12:38] how I thought about yeah so that I mean that's an interesting pathway so you You' inventory every tree in town there [12:44] or um so practically how would you do that yeah on a lot that hasn't been [12:50] built on what do you do on a lot that hasn't been on a lot that hasn't been built [12:56] on then this process of going out and surveying makes [13:02] sense to me um so that I I thought made sense and then we would draw the lot [13:07] lines and say well you can build out to that lot line and if you want to go beyond that then you got to come talk to [13:14] us right um so that process part of it made sense to me the other piece about [13:21] it like we already do part of that what we do we have a which commission is it [13:27] that goes out and finds these trees and they vote on eec right [13:32] so we kind of do a little bit of that um already so I'm not sure how to do [13:40] it some way you would survey which trees do we want to well I kind of want to Riff on that a little bit because one of [13:46] the things that came off this Dakota Trail property was um the only trees [13:51] that were available in the large Cal calipers there was a limited um number of cultivars that were available that [13:57] large and they were very concerned about losing the variety of trees that if we could only plant the large caliper trees then [14:04] we're going to just have this kind of Maple and that's going to be it and that's the only one that's really available um in the market um at that [14:11] size so when we talk about what we want to preserve part of what came up which I [14:17] thought was a really good idea is what we're trying to do in what we're planting with baby trees and that's a variety of trees so that we don't have [14:23] all Elm trees that get Dutch elm disease and we have no trees and then we have all ash trees and they get the emerald ashb and we have no trees but but that [14:31] our stated goal in what we're planting is a is a variety and I think that we should preserve a variety of trees as [14:38] well and make sure that what's available as replacement trees um is also a [14:43] variety and um and there could be arguable as to whether that's available but the landscaper was like I couldn't [14:49] buy these anywhere I looked everywhere I could only find one kind of tree and I don't want to just plant one kind of tree yeah so I so the fourth thing I had [14:57] was who responsib ility is it I actually don't think it should be the responsibility of the homeowner to [15:04] replant trees unless they're within their property and so with this [15:11] construct that would mean if we're in a situation where we have to replace trees [15:18] like then the reserve who in this case would be probably Nathan would figure [15:25] out all right what kinds of trees do we need to replace and where should they go [15:32] right because it doesn't make it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to have a homeowner replace a tree on their [15:39] property I'd rather see somebody replace a tree on a trail that everybody uses [15:44] and so maybe those trees go to a trail now that everybody has access to in that [15:52] homeowner those funds are going into that fund to actually support the the [15:59] the spread of the tree canopy throughout the community not just on one particular [16:05] live but then we would decide these are the the outcome these are the trees we [16:11] want to do here's where they go we would go put them there and we would maintain [16:17] those trees have you seen an ordinance from some Town that's akin to that I've read I can get access to a [16:27] it's I guess it's not necessar ordinance but it's you a preservation plan that [16:34] operates that way okay so what I'd like in my experience when it was outdoor knocking last summer when [16:41] you went down the streets where there hadn't been a lot of Redevelopment they were very cool when you walk down the [16:46] streets where there had been a lot of tear Downs they were very hot they were very hot all the mature trees were gone [16:52] and the streets were super hot and so when when we talk about preserving it on [16:57] a trail it ignores the reality that now like especially like Chowan Park and stower park those neighborhoods where [17:04] there have been a lot of tear Downs super hot because there are no shade trees um because when they tore down the [17:11] house they clearcut the lot and put in a house and maybe did or did not replace the trees so I think keeping our [17:19] neighborhoods cool and treelined are good for so many reasons that I wouldn't segregate it into just public land or [17:26] preserved areas I think that it needs to be Citywide wide um because it it decreases the value of those [17:32] neighborhoods when you lose that shade 100% so I'm not debating that at all I'm [17:37] saying the the construct though says we care about that as an outcome right we [17:44] care about trails and we care about neighborhood tree canopy and if we care about those two things [17:51] then the city based on where this These funds are decides to make sure that we [17:58] meet those out out comes but can we plant on you know a private [18:03] property we you know that's you have volunteers that would let you plant [18:08] there yeah yeah sure you could but at least yeah I see the nub of an idea there Julie you wanted one thing and the [18:15] next time you're out walking and you're going down a block it's really fascinating because you look the trees [18:21] are all the same distance from the street and I pointed that out to my husband like the older ones he's like oh [18:28] I never realized that but they are literally all lined up and what concerns [18:34] me is uh you know that the direction that we're headed and as we're looking at zoning and possibly reducing the [18:41] amount of setback from the road making it harder and harder for those trees to survive and also making it harder for [18:48] them to be replaced if people want to replace them but the other thing I wanted to comment on what James brought [18:55] up and it's not just the build ERS but it's also homeowners who are thinking of [19:01] selling and um I've heard from people who have said my property value is going [19:07] down because you know I can't sell what at the price I would be able to get [19:12] because potential buyers are you know they see the tree in my yard as a negative or whatever um so they're [19:19] planning on doing something and then you know it hits them too because there is a tree in there well the trees are [19:25] probably close to the house and so you know there's there's that it's so just thinking about it as not just about [19:32] Builders but also about homeowners and also uh cost that is very regressive in [19:37] many ways and so I think you know all of that needs to be taken into account but [19:44] the one thing that we talked about at the beginning of the meeting is you know like what is sustainable and what what kind of trees are really going to [19:50] survive the size how do we get the variety all of that how do we encourage that and not diminish that and I mean [19:58] people are thinking about this in terms of everything in fact somebody told me they were very concerned about the trees [20:05] that are going in at the new Fire Station because they're so big and expensive and it's going to be hard to make sure that they actually survive and [20:12] why are we spending all this money on super large trees so you know that's different from the tree ordinance but um [20:20] it's related to it so my understanding is the science on trees has changed and Luther would you address that about the [20:27] the larger being able to plant the larger trees in the survival rate so I've been planting large caliper trees [20:35] since I started working here 10 years ago I work with multiple tree farms [20:40] throughout Minnesota that grow these trees just for this purpose and it's so that as opposed to planting you know the [20:46] the main complaint I was getting when I first started is that people were doing these you know construction projects [20:52] building new houses and just putting up little sticks and taking out all the shade and so that was the number one [20:57] complaint and that's why we got our beefed up ordinance was because of that because prior was just one to one you [21:03] just had to put in a little two and a half inch tree and that was it and if you didn't you just made a donation to the city and we thanked you for donating [21:10] a tree to the city and not planting anything and so now we're making you replace those trees and putting in trees [21:16] of a greater size that you can buy four 3 and 1/2 4 and 1/2 5 and 1/2 inch trees at you know curtains boxman's has them [21:23] available but most of the builders that you know you're not hearing from that [21:28] aren't having an issue with this are going to tree farms and getting them from tree farms where you Spade it in uh [21:34] the guy I use everything is you know kind of moved around on the farm in a 90in spade when they come and plant the [21:40] Big Trees we're doing at the fire station those will come on a 100 inch Spade the tree won't even know it's been moved because it's been growing in 90 in [21:47] we'll use 100 in to move it and so the success now is far higher and um you [21:53] know people are doing this all over you can even you know my guys that do that they move 200y old oak trees now that's [21:58] an option you can just move a large tree on your property or over to you know the neighboring [22:04] side cost and so it it it depends if it's on your property I've never had anyone do it I asked my guy for a quote [22:11] and he said um low-end 25 Grand highend to move it you know sometimes it's over [22:17] $200,000 but in other cities they have ordinances where it's beneficial to do [22:22] that because that's cheaper than the uh fees you have to pay for removing those trees so Luther to the point that was [22:28] was raised by at least this one landscaper that they can't find tree stock that's not true it's not you don't [22:34] agree with that all look at the trees I got for fire station three that's going [22:40] in there's some that are like I think 10 in whether it's whether it's a deciduous tree or Conifer correct yeah I don't [22:47] agree with that all there's tree farms throughout the state that grow trees that are far exceed those sizes so what [22:54] I tried to do was work within the confines of what we had and think about but if we're going to try [23:01] to I say fix some of the issues that we think are relevant in the [23:07] ordinance it seemed to me that we needed a mechanism to have some sort of a due [23:12] process appeal methodology uh to be able to contest [23:18] something that you said you were you were or were not going to do or their [23:23] trees did or did not meet the requirements that we established now that that seems fairly straightforward [23:29] but the escro May it a little bit more squishy um the if if we required you [23:36] know as you read through the ordinance you you think about the plan of treatment uh or the um treat protection [23:42] plan I'll call it you know I get to thinking well maybe we should have a form that we create that is an act treat [23:49] protection plan and it has all these component elements to it first is the [23:55] inventory of what you got and then what you have to do and how you go about doing it and it did [24:03] seem to me from looking at the undeveloped Lots over on on uh the quter [24:08] trail that they shouldn't had a chance over there to use Clump trees because the [24:14] idea is you use species that are native to the area but the clump trees don't work in terms of our measurement because [24:20] you got let's say you got a river birch that's got three three trunks on it and [24:25] they're all small and we don't don't take the measurement around the whole [24:31] Clump we you know I think somebody said to one of those homeowners over there that planted 18 Clump trees because they [24:38] wanted to have Birch that well we'll just you can wait to get your money back [24:43] when these individual trunks are big enough to meet the test and they and they live so I don't know if that was an [24:51] accurate portrayal of what was told of those folks or not but it did seem to me that some way somehow we need to address [24:57] if we're saying you can buy it you can put a tree in your yard that's uh on the hopen county [25:03] list and it's a clump tree we have't covered Clump tree in the ordinance we should do [25:09] that so Clump trees are covered in the ordinance you can plant them I think their issue is just the way I was [25:15] measuring them and the way they perceived they should be measured uh the ordinance calls for the nurser standard [25:21] for measuring and so that's you know when you buy a tree from a nursery you measure them differently than the [25:26] original tree inventory that's done done you know by the the arist um and I think a lot of that you know there were lots [25:32] of issues with that now I think once we made the change June 4th requiring the ISA certified Arborist now that's helped [25:38] a lot um having other certified arborists be a part of the the process has helped eliminate a lot of those [25:45] issues um I know that particular you know project there you know they had issue with it and you know when you go [25:51] to Nursery though uh Clump trees are not sold by their dbh which is the measurement we use they're sold by [25:57] height and feet same for conifers and it's just a difference of the way that you know they're sold in the nursery [26:03] setting and so the way I measure all these trees when I go out there is you go up 6 in from the ground and so you're [26:10] still kind of where you know the tree is bigger at 6 in than at 4 and A2 where you measure normally that's the dbh is 4 [26:15] and2 ft and so when you're measuring these newly planted trees bought from a nursery you measure them at the base [26:21] Clump trees doesn't matter if it's three three clumps you know five stem six stem [26:26] the way you measure them you take the three large clumps you add them together you divide in half and that's the that's the size there are you know he thought [26:33] that you measure each each Clump and you get you know each stem in there so I have six 1in stems that's a six incher [26:40] that's not how you measure them in the nurseryman standard I'm just going to use that grenette property as an example [26:46] I think they my memory isn't going to be exactly accurate here but I'm going to say they planted 18 Clump trees and they planted [26:55] one single trunk tree in the back and and they thought you were going to come out and tell them yeah the plant you [27:02] look it looks good you're getting your 30,000 bucks back and you told them no [27:08] you only got one qualifying tree yeah the one that was in the back with a single trunk MH everything else they [27:13] planted didn't count they had two trees that one was three and a half one was 4 in all the other ones were not and seem [27:20] to me that you got 18 plump trees that have been planted they're going to they're going to grow and accomplish [27:26] that lower level shade that we all want increasing tree canopy [27:32] uh and and it kind of beged the question are they ever going to get their $30,000 [27:38] back I haven't heard from them I guess and so see that to me seems punitive to [27:44] James's point that seems punitive to me mhm they they they they planted trees [27:49] that look great in their yard they're going to grow the beautiful specimens and somehow they're not getting their [27:55] money back yeah that's like your fault you're just following the ordinance [28:01] mhm so I think you know too a lot of their trees were close to three and A2 some were three but they weren't three [28:06] and a half and so I'm not you know refunding them that it's not the right size but I think you told them you know [28:12] if they yeah wait a year they'll be that size next year they could go in for their you know release then you know I [28:19] don't think they're moving anytime soon and so you know that's another another option for them in that case is there [28:25] any way we could bake into the process instead instead of having the residents [28:31] have to call you again and say hey come out it looks like they're there when you evaluate for the first time you make a [28:38] note that says they'll probably be okay in a year I will just automatically come [28:43] back so that it's not on them to keep phoning I mean could that help a little [28:51] bit uh yeah because right now you know you're right there's no definitive end date right I'm just thinking how do we [28:59] kind of lift some of this pressure off and so once they planted the trees okay this is not there yet but you have a [29:06] good idea when it will be and so I yeah there definitely a conversation you know we could have and I think that would [29:12] help CU then at least they're not yeah what [29:18] are you doing the situation where there's um I had another one up in country not country but up on morning [29:24] side where they called me and they went over there to look at it they were going to add an addition on the back of the house they had to take this big tree [29:31] down I don't know if it was a protected tree or Heritage Tree in order to make room for the the the add-on addition to [29:38] the back of the kitchen and was a house probably built in the 30s [29:43] and because of the measurements that we use I'll say 2/3 of that tree was [29:49] outside the allowable radius and one3 was in I don't know how you dealt with that situation but it struck me that oh [29:55] yeah you're going to have this happen too you're going to have this permissible uh diameter that you can [30:02] plant in and tear trees down in without any consequence because it's within the building all building footprint it's [30:08] only for the unbuilt Lots it's only for the unbuilt correct so what are you do in the fully developed lot then you have [30:13] to mitigate all the trees that are removed that are not on the henan county uh or not not on the DNR you know uh [30:20] invasive species list or you know we have our list of there's like you know six or seven species that can be removed without mitigation so in this situation [30:26] where they've got to take out a big tree to build a uh addition on their [30:33] house you were requiring them to do what mitigate that tree what does that mean [30:38] so it'd have to go through the ordinance they'd have to pay out you know the escrow for removing it and then replace that Heritage tree I think they told me [30:46] that the amount of money that you told them that they have to pay caused them to think about whether or not they'd [30:51] even do the remodeling because they just it was right out of cash flow it was right out of the saved cash that they had to make [30:57] the payment to be able to borrow the money to build addition on the house not your fault yeah Tom you wanted [31:07] you've been waiting to say something so we're trying not to get super specific on each property but in general the the [31:14] having a certified arborus helps people through this process the majority of the issues we've had are people that are not [31:19] using a certified arborus then we get in this back and forth about how to measure a tree and all these things but a [31:26] certified arbit speaks the same language is Luther and that really helps the process move forward in an efficient [31:32] fashion but bigger picture uh you know we'd like more thoughts but the the idea [31:39] was really to implement this as a way to preserve neighborhood character and it [31:45] it had been growing over the years more and more complaints about the clear cutting of the Lots because it's the [31:50] most simple thing to do for anyone that's redeveloping a lot this ordinance has been successful [31:59] uh it has caused hardship so that's why we're here but uh so we're we're [32:05] certainly interested in thoughts but it also has been functioning really well except for on a couple the wooded Lots [32:10] were Prime examples of where it was not an efficient ordinance at all and caused a lot of hardship and you think it's [32:17] been working really well is that what you said yeah I I that's my position yes [32:24] cuz we have had how many have come through that are uh going through and and yeah they're finding creative ways [32:31] to avoid taking down trees so they don't have to pay in all this escrow money uh [32:36] that's one of the reasons the ordinance is written this way uh but there are there are some hardships and those are [32:43] the course of the ones you're hearing about you I think just to be clear in what I'm [32:48] saying is I don't know that we're getting the outcome that we want and so and so I struggle with that [32:57] um but I'm not sure we are like I don't think it's okay to [33:02] tell a homeowner on private property that for that tree Nathan you [33:10] gave the example of moving the oak was you have to move that tree and it's going to cost you [33:16] $30,000 now I've seen what what Nathan is talking about Luther hasal is is [33:22] talking about I've seen that where you've moved really old oak trees right [33:28] you're taking out tons of dirt to move that tree and it's successful like you've [33:33] said but we can't ask a home owner to do that on private property and so I go [33:39] back to if we care about that outcome we have to figure out a process that allows [33:45] us to do that and I don't know if this is legal or not I'm just we're right we're just throwing spaghetti on the [33:51] wall and so if at that property there's an old oak there that's in the way and [33:58] we want to move it and it's going to cost $70,000 if we had a fund as a city that [34:07] said these trees we're going to protect then the city would be helping [34:13] fund move the freaking tree what if they can't move it well that that's different [34:18] if they can't move it um on property then maybe it gets moved someplace else in the city and so the the point is and [34:26] I'm using that example yeah if the outcome is that we want to save 90y old [34:32] oak trees in Edina then we got to pay for that and so [34:37] how do we do that how do we put together not just an ordinance but we have to have a sustainable fund that allows us [34:45] to be able to accomplish that as an outcome and we don't have that today because I think it is unfair to a [34:54] homeowner to say you got to Shell out $50,000 to move that [35:00] tree I just because it feels punitive to me so you're saying it's the trees are a [35:08] public good and so should be a public expense is what I'm hearing you [35:13] say I I don't like the way that sound well I but that's what I'm hearing [35:20] yeah economically speaking it's a public good to have large trees and because it's a public good the public should [35:26] Finance the protection of those trees and if that is the outcome we want we got to figure out a way that has the [35:33] balance to achieve that so well that's interesting um I want to [35:40] go back to something you said earlier um uh have we ever taken a what kind of inventory do we have of trees in the [35:47] city do we have anything nothing that's complete nothing that's compl all fragments yeah we've never done a full [35:53] inventory and that would probably be pretty expensive but it's getting cheaper now now they have drones doing [35:58] it and so I know there are newer better options uh for doing entire cities I've gone to a couple workshops where they're [36:05] either doing it too with like the uh Google streets car they can do you know they have that but it does trees now and [36:11] stuff and so it's all liar and so there's a lot of stuff like that but it is it is expensive but it it's definitely possible okay and then to [36:17] create a tree protection plan we would then designate a maybe a percentage of [36:23] tree cover that we'd want to see in the city and and then come up with you know [36:28] a map of what that would look like potentially um I guess you know I hadn't [36:36] thought about it who's who's responsible for the trees because I've seen these you know the examples in my neighborhood [36:42] where there were six massive oak trees that got taken down yeah and miniature trees in replacement it's just and so [36:49] they could have a sports court and so there was a tremendous benefit to the home builder to build that but the [36:54] neighborhood lost just a Priceless treasure yeah and so but they had the [37:01] right to do that they had the right to do that yeah yeah well it was it was home builder and and under this [37:06] ordinance they would have had a very big Bill yeah because somebody that owned [37:12] the house with a bunch of big trees on it they decided they didn't like them right now they could just take them down but but most people like trees yeah [37:19] that's true I agree yeah and and this the person who took them down didn't have a stake in the neighborhood they didn't live there and that's the problem [37:25] is we've got these third party people who don't have a stake in our neighborhoods who are taking the trees [37:31] down that's why we are where we are that's why we are where we are and um and the question is you how do we [37:36] mitigate that because we are losing something really valuable and you know the research goes on and on about the [37:42] benefit of trees and a neighborhood it makes us a wealthy City in a lot of ways [37:47] um but you know how you're getting towards s is [37:52] there is there a way to accomplish our goals keeping in mind some of these experiences that people are having under [37:59] the present the ordinance is presently crafted yeah yeah and yeah what's what's [38:04] the best way to do that but you know the the example that we've heard so much about um from one of our um single [38:12] family home developers is there are trees planted right next to the house and that's kind of what you were talking [38:17] about too these trees when the house is built they put a tree that like the shade on the kitchen or whatever and [38:23] then when they want to expand the house those trees have to go who who bears cost of that and um you know it's [38:32] it's I don't know they barely cost have taken the tree out but your point is [38:38] that maybe that whatever that canopy was that was lost gets replaced some other way somewhere yeah no but I think we [38:45] need to there's some other things we need to acknowledge though because there there is the tree canopy map in the [38:51] climate action plan which points out very clearly how parts of the city have a very meager your tree canopy and um I [39:00] know I've mentioned this our tree policy only applies to R1 and R2 and we keep [39:07] getting commercial projects going up with massive setback variances and there go [39:13] the trees and there's no way to put in trees and so you're walking in a commercial area and it's really hot and [39:20] I don't really see any attempt to mitigate that so that's a problem the [39:28] other thing is there are established houses like you said with the tree too close to the house and the thing is [39:34] people plant trees too close to the house we moved in and that was the case [39:40] and you know so what do what do you do in that situation um they're growing right up by [39:47] the gutter so that's a problem you know and I think context is key and you need to take care of look at that um some [39:54] lots are a lot smaller than other Lots so what is the required tree density that should be in place for a lot that's [40:04] 50 ft wide for you know I mean I think we we need a little bit more granularity [40:10] on it if we're going to say this but you can look at a map in the climate action [40:16] plan and you can see that if the goal is to have a healthy tree canopy throughout [40:22] the city we're not meeting that and I and I think the focus on only [40:28] residential is not going to change things especially for the southeast [40:34] quadrant and I would I would say I agree with what you just said but I'd add to [40:40] it I don't think we have a construct to achieve that outc on financially and so [40:45] we can't come to the table and have the conversation like we're completely [40:51] unencumbered right and so I'll use myself as an example we lost two giant ash trees in our front yard [40:59] I am not going to spend $30,000 to get two trees in my front [41:05] yard with a diameter enough to create tree canopy I'm just not going to do [41:12] that uh we'll do way more than a stick it'll be a nice tree but it's [41:18] going to take 15 years for that right for that to to grow however if we had [41:25] some construct where the says we' love for that to be a huge tree and if you do [41:31] this we'll subsidize a part of that because it's a good it's good for the [41:37] community maybe we would do that but that doesn't exist today right that [41:43] doesn't exist today and so on private property people are making their own [41:49] decisions but we care about the tree canopy so I want everybody to hear me say that I care about the tree [41:56] canopy but we got to find a construct that allows us to achieve those outcomes [42:01] and we don't have that today you're really wrestling with that yeah you point out the urgency of this everybody's I lost a giant asht tree too [42:08] actually two yeah because of emerald ashb and the other one I'm doctoring but the others just they gave up and so we [42:15] are losing tree canopy irrespective of Redevelopment because of emerald ashb [42:21] and that's the urgency of protecting the trees that are healthy so I mean this is a this is a pretty urgent matter um and [42:30] so right now this is what we have um you know and do we fix it or do we come up [42:37] with something different I guess what I'd like to hear is a little bit of the research that went into this because I know the eecc did a lot of work on this [42:45] and worked a long time on it um but looked at other you know I don't know if Marissa can answer that or we are where [42:50] we are though with the ordinance we're on a limited amount of time here I just soon keep having this [42:56] General conversation is to yeah dig into the history it is what it is yeah and [43:01] and but but for me the storytelling is an important part of it and the stories we're getting and receiving I mean you [43:08] you caus me to just think about another moment you guys were talking about spading Big Trees you know I had uh [43:13] somebody told me that they we had a special ed teacher at the high school that was bought a house and she was going to I don't if it was a terter on [43:20] rebuild or massive Remodel and and this big uh Conifer was right in the way [43:26] where the driveway was going to go and it was a $20,000 proposition I think to [43:32] move the tree yeah it could be moved from one side of the yard to the other side of the yard you know and um they [43:40] took it I I no I think they did it they did move it they moved it but it was an [43:46] expense as a special ed teacher she hadn't planned on on her remodeling cost you know to the point you're talking [43:53] about um so [44:00] the energy environment commission did some great work trying to get us to a spot where we could actually protect [44:06] tree canopy but it was like um at least uh housing first thinks we [44:13] reached too far and I think I do too I think we haven't found as you say the [44:18] right construct yet I don't want to see people uh because now the another issue [44:25] for me and undeveloped is and I'm going to think about I know and I know we don't have many undeveloped pieces of [44:31] property in ninaa but there's a 15 acre piece of property over in Rolling Green as for sale the short property and [44:39] somebody may come to us with the idea of well let's subdivide that thing into lots and there are going to be trees [44:45] that are coming down uh the Topography of this thing to me [44:52] was illustrated by what happened on Dakota trail that they ended up with a resp responsibility to replant more [44:58] trees than they were physically capable capable of replanting and the and the mitigation ended up being a penalty and [45:05] so you're still sitting with what do you have from each of those homeowners $30,000 roughly from each of them you [45:13] know um yes 30,000 for one and 28 another and and and you're holding [45:22] that money until the clumps are bigger [45:27] or are they never getting it back waiting for them to put in their escro release so there's a pro you know we [45:33] don't I don't just go out to your house and say cool these trees look good you have to fill out forms have your you [45:39] know there's a bunch of forms so that's what we're waiting for for those okay and what I believe is happening is they're not doing that because their [45:45] trees aren't large enough if they wait a year they will be and so but still like I said I don't talk to them you know [45:51] regularly and so I'm not sure what their plans are but that's where I think that those are at [45:57] and I don't mean to dwell on them but because of the fact we do have some undeveloped property still need I if [46:04] it's issue comes up again I like to see us maybe we just don't gra Grant any more subdivisions there'd be no more [46:10] undeveloped lots that be option you know one of the things that's there is they cut into the [46:16] hillside which was just so complicated um just environmentally for everything and you know I don't know but we let [46:23] them do that we did because that was that was permissible yeah but the the because when they went [46:29] to build their house uh that was okay yeah from from our construction but then [46:35] they got penalized because they couldn't plant the trees because they took out part of the hill right right exact and [46:41] then they the um water uh Watershed District walls you know back yeah it's [46:48] um but what we're allowing is you know it's kind of [46:54] a well it's kind of an environmental um disaster in a lot of ways I mean it just [47:00] cutting cutting a side of a hill away has consequences can you tell us about some of the other experiences you've had [47:06] because in Perry's memo at the end he he gave a lot of pretty positive data Tom I [47:11] think your your your assertion that things are going generally going pretty well yeah and so like I said there's [47:17] tons of Builders you guys have never heard from because we've had no issues they don't have problems sourcing the trees they don't have problems meeting [47:23] the requirements they don't have problems paying the escrow and that's I'd say the majority of the projects you [47:29] know we processed you know hundreds of these permits mostly infill mostly infill I mean they're not [47:37] new they're not new houses ons they're turned on rebuilds yeah yeah [47:42] okay but yeah you know and that's the norm you know now here in udina and they're you know yeah some of them [47:48] they're getting creative they're moving trees you know around on the lot before they start to make sure the trees are out of the way and then they don't have [47:55] to pay any escrow for that and so a lot you know a lot of them that's a great option that they're you know they're utilizing and and and you know doing and [48:01] then other ones too it's you you two see anything or the [48:07] three of you that you'd like to see adjusted in the ordinance I I think [48:12] there's yeah there's definitely changes and you know especially uh you know with what we do with the money you know and [48:19] and you know how that gets you know utilized after I think would would be you know uh good to have but I think [48:25] overall the the main goal has been working preserving trees and and you know that was that was the big issue too [48:31] with the last one is that um you know the buyout you you would you know donate trees to the city and then I was [48:37] planting those trees in our Parks removing them from the neighborhood where they're needed and putting them in our Parks I'm running out of I'm going [48:44] to run out of space in our parks to plant trees eventually there's going to be no space left and we need them in these neighborhoods and we need them on [48:50] these properties where they're being removed from because that's that's where they're that's where they're needed is right there so you has your team talked [48:57] about the three of you and Perry talked about how You' tweak the ordinance to deal with this escro issue yeah we're [49:05] actively looking at a few things but the the slope and some of the issues that came up on Dakota that's being studied [49:10] right now uh you know we've discussed what what what a review exercise looked [49:16] like would it go to right now we're we're really just geared up to reading ordinance understand it and explain [49:23] whether or not you hit the goals but we don't have a process currently [Music] [49:29] for un unforeseen circumstances that could occur but that sounds like you [49:35] both believe this is effective in helping achieve the outcomes the challenge has been [49:41] obviously to the Dakota properties the wooded lots and and changes were made [49:48] you know originally those Els were $100,000 with with direction from [49:54] Council that was changed in June and reduce it quite a bit you know those are [49:59] still obviously the biggest challenge we've come across but the regular builders that are building any Dina get [50:06] comfortable in the process we have in place those are the ones that no one's hearing from so how many permits total [50:12] do you think 250 250 I was just going to I wanted you to [50:17] know the magnitude of permits that have been through this process and they said 250 permits and there's a handful that [50:24] you're hearing from right but I wouldn't trivialize that so I would ask but I [50:30] would ask for the data you're asking I think if we look at the data um I would [50:36] still say that I don't know that this is the right construct to achieve the outcome we're looking for but I'm not [50:42] doing the work and so you are and if what you're saying is we look at the [50:48] data and it's a normal distribution there's a couple of outliers that maybe we can figure out [50:54] how to address those one case we have and if you feel like we're achieving the [51:00] outcome then okay but that wasn't the sense I [51:05] was getting so maybe the maybe the Dakota Trail experience has [51:12] exaggerated problem could be um so tell me can you tell us how it works how the [51:18] Ordinance Works because I I see internally in the or in the ordinance uh [51:23] some at least for me some confusion so uh you're going to take it both from a [51:30] undeveloped lot or or a standing lot where they're doing a tear down rebuild what do you do uh you know first thing is you know [51:38] I'm not even going on site I'm looking at what they're you know submitting as their tree you know their tree plan their inventory and I'm going at my I'm [51:45] sitting at my computer I have about five different websites I use for aerial photography street view photography um [51:52] lar and so I'm looking at all that to say okay does this even match up do I even to go out here cuz most of the [51:58] stuff they have on here could be wrong right now and it's going to be a waste of my time because they're missing five trees or they're you know they're [52:04] missing you know this that or the other and so that's the first thing and you know usually end up sending stuff back for Corrections right away when there's [52:12] stuff missing into with the you know all the paperwork a lot of times there's stuff in there that's missing um I think [52:19] that's gotten a lot better with the requirement to have the certified Arbor now because now a lot of these Builders are having their Arbor do that work and [52:25] so that that has helped a lot um so do you have to approve the tree Protection Plan before a building permit is [52:31] issued so the they're they're separate so I am [52:38] not holding up the building process with my tree process um you know Builders can [52:44] go and you know get get started and I'll still you know don't have to have [52:50] everything done with with the tree permit it's obviously ideal yes but that's not you know a lot of them [52:55] they'll get started before then and then um you know too that's where some of the back and forth goes with where's this [53:01] tree I see it right here on my computer and now I see it's gone and so you know [53:06] because some of them they're they're trying to be sneaky because it does cost money and so they're trying to avoid that and so you know there there's some [53:11] of that but then it's you know going out on site checking the tree fencing and the majority of the time if I don't hear [53:17] any complaints from neighbors or anyone else I don't come back till the end for the final if they when I go out the [53:22] first time all their tree fencing's up and everything's good if I hear complaints and I'm getting complaints I'm out there checking on stuff and [53:29] requiring them to you know do whatever they're supposed to do get the fencing back up or protect the trees better or [53:35] get materials that are stored on the trees off the trees and stuff like that but that's usually when I get calls from Neighbors or other residents that are [53:40] you know walking around like hey this doesn't look right but otherwise it's you know I'm not out there driving [53:47] around every day looking at you know building sites and stuff um it's more just when the builders call when their [53:53] fencing's up and you know go out to look at the trees then and then at at the end to make sure all the trees that are supposed to be there are there and you [54:00] know going through uh what they submit for their their escro release as to what they planted and where their planted [54:06] trees are on their property at the end and making sure that they're you know there and healthy and stuff and I'll just jump in and say again the certified [54:12] arborus really helps the process so if they're turning in the paperwork following everything that's going on [54:19] then the interaction from staff is almost minimal I think that guy that called me young guy that called me it [54:24] was a builder himself was over on land memory assures me right and [54:29] so I don't know if he decided with his arborous that his trees run healthy and took them down and and or if you were [54:36] out there in advance but how do you deal with that kind of a problem where somebody says they're unhealthy [54:42] and you say they no no they were so that was an issue prior to requiring the certified Arborist I would defin because [54:48] it was me and I was arguing with Builders all the builders said all the trees were sick and dead and you know [54:54] that was their opinion which they're wanted to now with the ISA certified Arbor requirement I'm sure that one was [55:00] probably prior to that I would say if he was the Builder and arguing about it it was several years ago looks like his [55:06] house is only a couple years old but now you know that's been that's been mitigated because there's no you know I [55:13] haven't been arguing with other certified harvests over the condition of the trees and stuff and haven't had issu [55:19] guy like that who still got money in escrow under our team he's never getting [55:24] it back nope if you plant all the trees you're supposed to plant you get it back we changed the ordinance too to allow you to plant on neighboring properties [55:30] other sites any you D in so there's other options for them if they don't have room on their site they can plant elsewhere and they can get all their [55:35] money back how about the people on like on Dakota Trail they could plant elsewhere as well and get all their [55:42] money back too that's totally an option for them as well they you know hire certified Arbus as well to help them [55:48] that's another option for them they get that $2,500 credit for that too that would help and that's another thing that [55:54] they could do that would you know probably help them so the only thing I would go back [56:00] to then would be member Jackson's point 45 minutes [56:06] ago so the 250 permits that's for buildable Lots [56:14] Builders that's all our tree permits all tree per permits that we've reviewed and [56:20] only about 50 of the or I would say 70ish have an escrow so we have about [56:26] like a hundred or so that have no escrow that like just go through they don't have to replant right they saved all [56:32] their treats no good I was trying to go back maybe I just said it wrong so the [56:38] the um issue of we have how did you say it [56:44] mature healthy trees tree canopy in neighborhoods and your as tree my two [56:51] ashes are gone and so we're just losing those trees naturally yes to disease and [56:57] other things this ordinance is not protecting that tree canopy and so you [57:04] were saying Luther you were planting trees on public property taking them out [57:09] of the neighborhoods and we're losing that tree canopy and so if if we're meeting the outcomes of [57:18] construction right and it kind of feels like look at the data this is helping achieve that with a couple of outliers [57:26] then the question is if the outcome is to protect tree canopy broadly [57:31] throughout the community then you've got existing home lots where trees are should we be trying to solve that [57:39] challenge as well is the the question then if we're if we feel like what we [57:46] have today solves a part of it and the tree sale and some of the [57:52] other things we're doing throughout the city is trying to get more trees into neighborhood and and some of these [57:58] challenging properties have the option they could reach out and say I need to [58:03] plan a tree can I do it on your property uh we haven't encountered that yet but [58:10] there's been one one of the uh overall Benton someone they planted in the [58:16] backyard of the neighbor so it's so uh we're about out of time but [58:23] um you know attorney Kendall suggest suggested some changes I thought they [58:28] were good um I know how we'd talk about that um well I mean I can talk about it [58:36] in a general sense um so I think there should be a process or more of a process [58:43] I think there's some process now I think there should be more of a process for kind of individualized analysis and you [58:50] know discussion of you know whether the proposed plan is appropriate for the [58:55] site if the developer property owner whoever they are wants to raise issues and have someone you know take a look at [59:03] that I think there should be more of a process for that feel like it would be fairly easy to build something like that [59:10] were talking about the construction Bo of appeals yeah I saw the mayor put that into one of the suggestions This was [59:17] meant just for more for ideas than anything else [59:22] yeah as far as the housing goes um David and I had a chance to speak [59:29] with them back in December I think yeah um we told them that we would talk have [59:35] this discussion with you and then tell them you know when we had it and what we're thinking about um and that's where [59:42] we were going to leave it with them we weren't going to negotiate whatever their wishes were with us we're going to [59:49] talk to you about what you want to do I like the idea of adding more process yeah we can give some thought to [59:57] kind of methodology about how we could do that I think that's under which circumstances would you be entitled to [1:00:03] some kind of an appeal whom and then I mean we're the last [1:00:10] stop seems like the construction board of appeals could serve a purpose here [1:00:16] yeah yeah I don't think you want to hear tree ordinance [1:00:26] we don't see very often [1:00:31] um but I do think it's tricky what we found that is tricky with these undeveloped Lots especially when there's [1:00:37] a topography change that's signicant that was the big and you end up with a [1:00:43] greater responsibility you can possibly satisfy i' like to know how many more [1:00:48] those are out there [1:00:54] dat um you know just a sense the scale cuz that was just a [1:01:00] weird I think that's something Comm develop okay so those those folks are still writing to me and wondering how [1:01:08] they get their money back soes on their neighbors property would be a good [1:01:13] option or to hire a certified Arborist to help them look at their lot again and you know they have that whole upper half [1:01:19] acre that's got you know Buckthorn on it that they could do stuff on or get creative with and so that'd be a I think [1:01:26] something above the wall and stick some trees in here and [1:01:31] there or talk to talk to their neighbors I'm sorry some ordin say other states um [1:01:41] have something written into the ordinance that says the tree should be replaced either on the site or as close [1:01:47] as possible to that site um and there's not always sometimes there's public [1:01:53] property nearby sometimes there's not so then you have to establish some kind of process for approaching the neighbors [1:01:58] and you know asking them if they want a tree planted there and certainly I think [1:02:04] some people would be very interested in that you know so yeah rather than just saying you [1:02:09] know I mean you plant the tree yourself on your property or you know have the [1:02:15] money go to the city for the city to plant the trees somewhere in the city you could have a process like the [1:02:20] interim step saying either the property owner or the city can try to plant that tree as close as po possible POs to the [1:02:26] the property in question so that if you your goal is to maintain roughly the same canopy in roughly the same area [1:02:33] you're trying to do more along those lines or I was going to ask this is maybe a question for you Dave if if you [1:02:42] had as part of the building permit process you had a tree replacement plan or a tree protection plan that was a [1:02:49] contract that you both parties agreed to and then you had the escrow [1:02:56] and the one party defaulted on the agreement the homeowner will say or the [1:03:01] Builder it seems to me that that that would be an easier argument with housing first on whether or not I mean it's [1:03:09] really turns out to be uh you know kind of a breach of contract situation here [1:03:14] here's the liquidated damages that you're going to pay by not doing what you said you were going to do and it [1:03:19] doesn't become a penalty it becomes a liquidated damage because you've gotten the people to agree to a contct [1:03:25] contractual relationship at the very outset in terms of tree replacement I don't know if that avoids [1:03:32] the first housing first argument about we can't do what we're doing or [1:03:37] not but I don't know because I think that's kind of the intent of the ordinance now but I think anyone who [1:03:44] doesn't want to comply with the ordinance would they'd say they're that's not really a voluntary contract you know I mean they're kind of being [1:03:52] yeah little little bit it's got a little bit of adhesion to it you know the the the harad Woodbury situation was you [1:03:59] know ostensibly a voluntary Street impact fee right to [1:04:05] deal with the traffic impacts of your development but then their argument was well it's not voluntary you know you're [1:04:11] kind of requiring it so point but if we were saying about [1:04:17] 250 of which I think you said 50 yeah I'd say maybe about 70 70 or so and if [1:04:25] out of the 70 only two of those are issues then how much money are we [1:04:31] holding at any one time I would say roughly we have we've [1:04:37] collected like just under a million and we've refunded about 200,000 so far of [1:04:44] permits that have like we've gone out and done our final inspection and refunded money and the but the majority [1:04:51] of those we expect to comply yeah like we still have a lot of permits that just haven't finished yet and and none of [1:04:57] none of those if I'm correct are letters of credit right yeah we have no letters of credit I that was an issue you heard [1:05:03] a lot about when we started the letters of credit people we were demanding some kind of cash escrow and and but that [1:05:11] that just hasn't turned out I've got an idea um you know how we sent out the [1:05:16] email the postcards to the smaller homes if you want to preserve your home uh just an idea have you lost an [1:05:26] ash tree would you like someone to plant a new tree on your on your lot um to to [1:05:31] mitigate the emerald ashb so it's just an I don't know what administering that would look like how expensive that would [1:05:37] be um but a similar idea if you've lost an ash tree we we have resources the [1:05:43] adopt the tree program yes orphan [1:05:52] trees so I mean you guys didn't seem too rattled by the fact that you got a million dollars with the people's money [1:05:58] and You' only paid off that we're assuming this is that mostly going back [1:06:05] there's yeah a lot of it is like permits that aren't finished like they're working on it so it's like we have it [1:06:11] we're just it's not going anywhere it's yeah yeah I know it's not going anywhere I trust that you you know we're meeting [1:06:18] our responsibilities allative and we are hoping and the home owners are hoping that it's all coming back which that's [1:06:24] outcome we all want obviously yeah we haven't retained any money yet like the city we haven't taken any money for [1:06:32] failure to [1:06:41] comply I know I don't know where that I don't know where that took us but it was really [1:06:46] educational uh and maybe uh if you've got some ideas on how to we'll certainly [1:06:52] pull some fix the UN undeveloped lot problem so we don't have that jump up [1:06:58] and bite us again and if there are some other issues you're seeing in uh ter rebild situation that fully [1:07:05] developed lot that's now being repurposed should we should know that [1:07:11] yes we shouldn't so go ahead what's the timeline on um like I said on on what [1:07:19] what are next steps and what's the timeline I I really I thought like I said Dave's ideas some pressure on the [1:07:26] housing first thing I'm not feeling pressure but I I think I think it's the [1:07:31] the suggestions were really practical and and easy to um to add to the ordinance I don't see why we would drag [1:07:39] our feet on that if we didn't have to from our perspective we can you know we do normally debrief conversations like [1:07:46] this and and take next steps from there yeah yeah I would I would I'd think there's some Timeless to those changes [1:07:54] and then whether there were other changes we wanted to make [1:08:00] I I um really felt like this is not getting us what we want but it sounds [1:08:07] like I'll just say it kind of is and there's a few things that we need to tweak versus we need to do an [1:08:14] overhaul especially for if we're it's a [1:08:19] empty lot or a tear down rebuild and so then trying to lean into this what how do we [1:08:26] Tech um in other instances maybe that's what we need to focus on so I apologize [1:08:33] but that's kind of how oh that was a good conversation let us some interesting spots and I you know from [1:08:39] just working on this thing for several hours came to the same kind of conclusion you came to is we need to [1:08:45] have some kind of a due process mechanism here for making sure that you're not intently trampling people's [1:08:52] rights and know the right to come to the council this old body L Resort and we [1:08:58] shouldn't go back to the drawing board if there's two out of 70 that's the [1:09:04] issue we should tweet for that if we can which is what I think this was intended [1:09:10] to do yeah I'd be interested in getting the or [1:09:15] original memos too that um the eec put together for us the educational stuff [1:09:20] I'd like to review that can do that [1:09:35] okay so it [1:09:40] is what did w used to say that's the way it is it is that's the way it [1:09:46] is he stand a j February