Good afternoon. I call to order the April 28th regular meeting of the Minneapolis Heritage Preservation Commission. For the record, my name is Marie Bjornberg and I serve as chair of the commission. Before we begin the meeting, I want to offer a reminder to silence your cell phones and other electronic devices. These meetings are broadcast live to enable greater public participation and include real-time captioning as a method to increase the accessibility of our proceedings to the community. Therefore, all speakers need to be mindful of the rate of their speech so that captioners can fully capture and transcribe all comments for the broadcast. We ask all speakers to moderate the speed and clarity of their comments and please speak clearly into the microphone when speaking at the dais or giving testimony. Will the clerk please call the roll so we may verify the presence of a quorum. Commissioner Alexander Present. Booty is absent. Corrado is absent. Melblom Present. Rodriguez Present. Smith Present. Thomas Present. Wallace Present. Vice Chair Mastin Present. Chair Bjornberg Present. There are eight members present. Let the record reflect that we do have quorum and that Commissioners Booty and Corrado provided proper notice that they have a conflict this afternoon. Next, we are going to organize the agenda for this meeting. Agendas are available by the clerk. We'll discuss in a public hearing item number four, 504 University Avenue Southeast, Ward 3. May I have a motion to approve the agenda? Mastin so moves. Thank you, Commissioner Mastin. Is there a second? Wallace, seconds. Thank you, Commissioner Wallace. Any discussion? Seeing none, all in favor say I. I. I. Those opposed say nay. The agenda is approved. Our next order of business will be to approve the minutes from our April 14th, 2026 meeting. May I have a motion to approve those minutes? Thomas so moves. Thank you, Commissioner Thomas. Is there a second? Melblom seconds. Thank you, Commissioner Melblom. Any discussion? Seeing none, all in favor say I. I. Those opposed say nay. Any abstentions? The minutes are approved. Before I open the hearing to public comments, let me summarize the process for conducting the public hearing. First, planning staff will present its report and commissioners may ask questions of staff. Then, I will open the public hearing and we will hear from the applicant and commissioners may ask questions of the applicant. After that, we will invite public comment. If you wish to speak, please be sure to sign up on the sheet over by the clerk. If you haven't done this already, you can do so afterwards. When you come up to testify, please state your name for the record. After public comments are complete, I will close the hearing and commissioners will deliberate and act upon the application before us. Our first item is item number four, 504 University Avenue Southeast, Ward 3. This application is for a commission preservation application and the staff report is presented by Aaron K. Good afternoon, Chair Bjornberg and Commissioners. My name is Aaron K and I am a senior city planner in the historic preservation subsection of the Department of Community Planning and Economic Development or CPED. I'm here today to present a commission preservation application for the property located at 504 University Avenue Southeast in the Saint Anthony Falls Historic District. Before getting into the project, I'd like to make you and the clerk aware of a small typo in the applicant's name. The applicant is Lance Sjursen and his last name should be corrected to S J U R S E T H in the meeting minutes. Here is an aerial view of the property's location. The historic district boundary runs along University Avenue Southeast to the north of the property, so the south side of this block is in the historic district. The property is a duplex that was built in 1908 to 1909 by August Cedarstrand and Company. It is a contributing resource to the Saint Anthony Falls Historic District. The applicant is proposing several tasks to rehabilitate the property and add bedrooms to the third floor so it can be used again as a rental property. I will give you a high-level summary and analysis of each task for its compliance with the design guidelines and the Secretary of the Interior standards for rehabilitation. The first part of the scope is to rehabilitate the two-story front porch that you see here. As you can see from the 1979 photo on the left, the porch was historically open. It was then enclosed with non-historic Masonite siding and screen windows, which the applicant would like to remove. This complies with the guidelines and standards. The existing wood railings shown at right do not meet current building code requirements for height. The applicant believes the railings are deteriorated and would like to remove them and install a taller simple picketed wood railing. Based on the information we've been presented so far, staff do not believe the railings are deteriorated beyond repair. So in order to comply with the guidelines and standards, staff are recommending a condition of approval to retain the historic wood railings and install a new railing behind that meets code requirements. Here's an example on the left of what that could look like, recognizing this is a photo of an interior railing um that has elevation changes, which would not be the case here. Um should a new railing be installed, the proposed design of the railing from the applicant is compliant. If the applicant can provide further evidence that the existing railings are deteriorated beyond repair, then replacement is appropriate. Another alternative that staff discussed, but did not uh ultimately put in the staff report, was adding a simple rail above the historic railing to achieve the required height, as shown on the right in three different examples. However, we weren't sure of the structural condition of the railing and if this was feasible. Uh the applicant would like to discuss this item with you further. A lead-based paint assessment was completed in 2022 on the property with positive results on the wood trim around the porch. The wood trim needs to be replaced. So, staff are recommending a condition of approval to require in-kind replacement with wood. The porch second columns also tested positive for lead and need to be refinished, which is appropriate. And finally, in order to meet code requirements, a simple metal handrail needs to be added to the front steps, which also meets the guidelines and standards. Moving to the back of the house, the rear wood steps are rotted and are proposed to be replaced in kind, which is appropriate. The applicant would also like to remove the cellar door in the top right uh because access is no longer needed. They would backfill and grade the area and install new HVAC systems in this location. As this does not appear to be a character-defining feature of the property, and it is minimally visible from the public right of way, removal is appropriate. This is also an ideal location for exterior HVAC units on this property. The applicant would also like to replace existing downspouts with properly sized units. One example of an existing downspout is shown here at left. Um this approach is appropriate to better handle water at the property. The last task is to replace all of the windows on the property. When the lead-based paint assessment was completed in 2022, the inspector tested much of the property but was unable to access most of the first floor. The results indicated that at least 35 windows needed to be repaired or replaced due to positive lead results. We would assume that similar results would be found on the first floor as well based on the age of the house. Staff recognize that lead remediation via repair is possible but also time and resource intensive. The applicant is proposing to replace the sashes for 63 windows in total using aluminum wrapped wood windows. >> [snorts] >> They will retain the existing operation with a handful of exceptions that I will go over. They will also remove, clean, and install the existing and reinstall the existing aluminum storm windows. Generally, the approach to window replacement complies with the guidelines and standards with a couple of exceptions for which staff recommend conditions of approval to address. >> [snorts] >> On the northwest elevation, which faces the street, windows would be replaced in kind except in three places. On the basement level, there are two wood awning windows. I think both of them are currently boarded up that the applicant would like to replace with glass block windows. However, due to visibility, staff recommend that these be replaced in kind instead. On the third floor, one window needs to have egress to comply with the building code since they are adding bedrooms. The applicant would like to replace the center window of the three with a casement window. To help the replacement window resemble a double hung window, staff recommend conditioning either true divided lights or an internal and external muntin, which would comply with our guidelines. After conferring with our building code reviewer, uh we did determine that it would need to be an internal and external muntin instead of a true division in order to meet the egress requirements for that window. So, as written, the recommended condition would allow for either option. On the southwest elevation, windows would be replaced in kind except in two places. On the basement level again, there are two wood awning windows that the applicant would like to replace with glass block windows. As this is not a primary elevation, this would be appropriate. Uh you can see an existing glass block window in this photo, which will remain. Additionally, the third-floor windows on this elevation appear to be four over one, as you can see on the right side. Staff recommend a condition that this light division remain in the replacement windows either through two divisions or internal and external muntins. On the southeast elevation, uh the glass block windows that you can see here won't be replaced, uh but the rest of the windows would be replaced in kind except in four places. Again, on the basement level, we have two uh wood awning windows that the applicant would like to replace with glass block windows. As this is not a primary elevation, this is appropriate. On the third floor again, there's a group of three windows, one of which needs to have egress to comply with the building code. And so, the applicant would like to replace the center window with a casement window. Again, staff would like this casement window to resemble a double hung window by having an internal external muntin. The third floor also has a non-historic sliding window that is not visible here, um and appears to be vinyl. Replacing it with an aluminum-wrapped sliding window to match the remaining windows would be appropriate if that is needed. Back to the northeast or front elevation, windows would be replaced in kind except on the third floor. Uh one window needs to have egress to comply with the building code. In the applicant's opinion, it might look odd to have a double hung window paired with a casement window, so they are proposing to change both windows to casement windows. In staff's opinion, only one casement window is needed for egress, and so to better replicate the historic window operation, staff recommend that only one casement window should be installed, and it can have an internal and external muntin to resemble a double hung window. The applicant would also like to discuss this item with you further. Staff recommend that the HPC adopt staff findings and approve the commission preservation application subject to the following conditions. Number one, existing wood railings on the front porch shall not be removed without evidence that they are deteriorated beyond repair. To meet code requirements, a simple wood railing of an appropriate height shall be installed behind the existing wood railing. >> [snorts] >> Number two, deteriorated porch trim shall be replaced in kind with wood trim of the same profile and dimensions. Number three, replacement double hung windows shall match the sash dimensions of the existing double hung windows and retain the asymmetry where applicable. Uh I didn't mention this in detail before, but because some of the windows have larger lower sashes than upper sashes, staff would like to see this historic design retained in the replacement windows, which also allows the rooms to have sufficient egress through those windows. Number four, glass block windows in the basement shall be allowed on the secondary elevations, southwest and southeast. Awning windows on the primary elevation, northwest, shall be replaced with wood or aluminum wrapped wood awning windows. Number five, casement windows on the third story that are needed for egress shall have two lights to match the appearance of a double hung window. If true divided lights are not possible, applied muntins on both sides of the glass with an interstitial spacer shall be allowed. Okay. Number six, on the third story of the northeast elevation, only one window shall change operation from double hung to casement. And number seven, existing double hung windows that have divided lights shall be replaced with windows that maintain the historic light division and are true divided lights. If true divided lights are not possible, applied muntins on both sides of the glass with an interstitial spacer are allowed. The applicant is here and would like to make a present a presentation. Although I don't speak for them, I believe they may want to discuss conditions one and six and possibly number five. Uh staff have not received any public comments on this project. This concludes my presentation and I'm happy to stay for questions. Thank you for that report. Commissioners, are there any questions for staff? Commissioner Melbom. Thank you, Chair Bjornberg. Um Ms. Kay, [clears throat] are there ever assuming that the glass block windows that would be at the basement level are being sought for security, do we have any precedents where we've allowed those to be um glass block windows facing uh I being on the primary facade? Chair Bjornberg, Commissioner Melbom, uh I don't have a specific address in mind for you where that has been allowed. Uh when staff discussed this project, we thought of a recent example that's in the University of Minnesota Greek Letter Chapter House Historic District and I don't have the specific address on me um where we recommended uh a similar treatment to preserve the historic style of the windows on the primary elevations. I don't recall off the top of my head um how you all decided on that and I'll uh not sure if Andrea Burt can can recall either. Thank you. Um Chair Bjornberg and Commissioner Melvoin, if if I recall and I I could try to look it up here, but I think it would take a little bit too much time. If I understand right, I believe either the HPC did strike a condition about those glass block windows um cuz I do know for sure staff recommended that as just as Aaron described or HPC held with re- approved staff recommendation as written and then I think the applicant appealed it is actually what I think happened is my memory is starting to jog back to me now. I'm pretty sure the applicant appealed it and then they were granted the appeal at uh the Biz Committee of the City Council. Thank you. Are there questions for staff? Commissioner Alexander. Uh thank you. Um do we have any documentation that confirms whether that basement level uh wood awning window is original um considering all of the other basement windows seem to have the glass block? Chair Bjornberg, uh Commissioner Alexander, um I did not show any photos in my presentation today, but your staff report does include a photo from the applicant of I think just about every basement window. I believe six of the windows are awning, one had already become glass block, and then there's two pairs of double hung windows. Um we don't know for certain that the the wood awning windows are historic. Generally, when we see those still in a in a basement, we tend to err on the side of caution and anticipate that they um either are historic or they reflect what would have been there historically. Thank you. Commissioner Wallace. Thank you. And thank you for your presentation. Quick question about the St. Anthony Falls Historic District guidelines. Is there anything in specifically in those guidelines about either the porch railing or the replacement of basement windows for the either primary elevation or the facade? Is there anything specific like that in the guidelines? Chair Biernbaum, Commissioner Wallace, there is a specific guideline about when porch railing does not meet height requirements. And unfortunately, I don't have my staff report in front of me, but I do know it was in the staff report. If it would be helpful, I can take a look at it during the applicant's presentation and if you still have the question, I can I can bring up the official wording for you, but the gist of what I remember is that it understands that historic railings often fall short literally with those building code requirements. I'm not recalling that there was a specific treatment recommended, but rather just allowing for changes to be made when code requirements are needed. Right on. Yeah, thank you. Any other questions for staff? Okay, thank you. And I understand that the applicant is here and would like to speak. Please come to the microphone and state your name for the record. Hello everyone. Thank you for the time, Commissioners. My name is Lance Sherseth with SCS Builders and Remodelers. Um Yeah, I do have a couple of points of contention on uh on one, five, and six. So, I mean, Aaron has already discussed some of this. Um I don't think it would be historically accurate or look correct to basically put a rail behind a rail. Uh The existing wood railings here I'm going to share some pictures with you. Are deteriorated beyond repair and we can show you that here. That it wouldn't be a very feasible remedy to try to repair these. Not sure do you know how to Is there a way to share over here? Oh, you have it. Okay. So, we can rotate through the pictures here of the railing and the connection points to the columns and we can see that they're all pulling apart. So, they're not really a safe railing. On top of that in 2022 there was a child lead poisoning at this property. A child with elevated lead levels. The railings are elevated lead levels and you can see how badly they're chipping in these pictures. We can show you some other pictures here. So, leaving this hazard here for a temporary fix because abatement really means an encapsulant paint that temporarily holds up and then the deteriorated dry rotted wood underneath is going to end up letting that basically become a lead hazard in the future again potentially poisoning another child. So, I really would rather mitigate and get rid of that railing and replicate it. And maintain the aesthetic that way especially with how many points are pulling away and then how low the railing is. see my knee just below the railing. That's not really safe if we open that up. I don't want to create a hazard here. I want to create a safe property for the client. So, that was one of my points of contention. I don't know if it's I probably didn't give you word for word for my response, but I mean that's the summary of it. I I don't I don't really feel like we're meeting a historical aesthetic by putting a railing behind a railing or putting a guardrail at the height of the railing, but if we have to maintain those existing railings, I would rather do a built-up railing and build on top of it rather than But, like I said, the lead hazard is still there. There was already a child lead poisoning in 2022 there. I I I'd really like to, you know, get rid of this hazard. Uh and like I said, we can recreate the railing. It's just going to be 36 in tall instead of 27 in. So, that would be my point that I would like to be be struck um from the conditions. And then I'm in agreement with number two. I'm in agreement with number three. I'm in agreement with number four. I'm fine with the awning windows in the basement. I'm fine with most of the recommendations of the preservation. Um on number five, it looks like they are looking to do a case Let's see. Is this the casement on the third story? >> [snorts] >> It looks like they're looking to do one casement window instead of two casement windows with uh exterior and interior muntins and then a a an integrated separator. Uh They call it an intersessional spacer. >> [snorts] >> Well, the problem is is there's a building code reference here that I don't know if that would actually meet uh having the spacer, I do not believe uh meets compliance for egress, which is a life safety issue, which I would think takes precedence over over the historical preservation because we got to we have to follow building code. We have to make anything that we do follow building code. Um let me see here. It was Yep. It was right below the diagram. You can see bars, grills, grates, similar. May be installed on emergency escape windows, doors, and windows. It it it also says that they have to be easily removable. So, we can't have that spacer in between the glass because that's not removable. Uh fireman needs to be able to get through that window, fully clothed with all his equipment, a 200-lb fireman, in order to be able to get somebody out if there was a fire. So, that that's just That's why the egress has clear glass opening, 5.7 square feet of clear glass opening. So, that's more of a life safety issue. Now, regarding the aesthetic [clears throat] that one window can be casement versus one window can be uh uh double hung. Well, if we go back to the If we go to the picture, can you find the picture of the front of the house? The proximity of the windows to each other on the front elevation of the house, the northeast elevation of the house, they're right by each other. So, if you put one window that has uh muntin, and then you have one window that has two sashes that are inch and a half thick that are offset, that's going to be visible from the ground. This The sidewalk's not very far away. It's going to basically say, "Hey, look at that. Look at me, I'm different. Something's not right. Something's not historically accurate because you're you have two things that are different right by each other on the front elevation of the house. And I would say the same about the railing. You're you're you're not meeting any historic preservation by doing this. You're you're actually making it look worse. So, I I guess that those are the points of contention. Everything else I'm in agreement and and happy to comply with. I think that we should look at striking number one, look at striking the intersessional spacers from number five, and allowing both windows to be [clears throat] casements because, like I said, you have one window right by the other window and you can see the proximity of each window. So, it really doesn't make sense to have two different windows right by each other on the front elevation of the house. When we can replicate it, if it's not right by another window that's it's it's not going to be noticeably different. But, if it's right by another window like I said, literally 5 in apart, it's going to be noticeable that it's different. And I think it's going to create a bad aesthetic for the for the property. The other points I'm in agreement with and like I said, I think we could move forward with them as as recommended by the heritage. Are there any questions? Thank you for your presentation. Commissioners, are there questions for the applicant? Commissioner Thomas. Hi, thanks for your presentation. Um I just wanted to get some clarification on what on number five, an interstitial space sir is essentially the the air gap between the two panes of glass? Um my understanding is it's the space inside the glass. If I'm incorrect about that, then It is inside the glass, but it just separates the two panes of glass and it's usually at the bottom of the window. Oh, I my understanding was there's actually So, there's inter- interstitial mullions. So, that was my understanding that it's a mullion in between the glass and then a inside and outside mullion or mutton. Yeah, I think what they're saying is yeah. >> [clears throat] >> then I'm okay with that. Staff can confirm, but I'm pretty sure it's just the air gap and then they you could apply the muntins on the outside and the inside. >> I'm and I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that. Okay. So, if Okay. Just wanted to clarify. Thank you. >> on my part. I apologize. It happens. All the words, people confuse muntin and mullion all the time. So. >> [laughter] >> Well, and and the historic is different terminology than a lot of the regular terminology that's thrown around in my industry, so. Okay. Any other questions? Are there other questions? Uh Commissioner Mastin. I think I just maybe do want to clarify with Andrea on that item because I think sometimes the interstitial spacer is actually like a grill that's between the two planes of glass. Is that correct? Is that what this request is? Um Chairwoman Commissioner Mastin, I'll call up Erin K to just to confirm. I mean, I have my own thing, but I know she's the most familiar with what what this project was. And then I also if um I would also like to add just a point for Erin to clarify when it's when it's appropriate to clarify the item about the building code um because Erin did talk with a member of our construction code services about the egress and what is possible in that respect. Thank you. Did we Did we show all of the pictures of the deteriorated railing connections? I think we should and then um like I said, if it's not feasible to do a new railing, I guess our preference we can show you would be to build up the to do a built-up railing on the existing. Um so we can show you that as well. So this would be an example of a built-up railing system. It is where you add to the add a graspable handrail or or a top rail and then build up every every three or four feet for a picket that goes through. Um there's an Here's another example of it on a on a diagram. But and like I said, to to me I've been around a lot of railings and I wouldn't want I wouldn't want my kids leaning against this railing and I wouldn't want them anywhere near it because of the elevated lead levels and I don't think anybody would, so I I just feel like it's a hazard that needs to be removed from the property and like I said, we can replicate it. We can replicate it to the same aesthetic. Um if you want to go through the remainder of the other pictures there. I do appreciate all your time. I don't I don't have anything else to add at this point unless you guys have any additional questions. I That ends my Do the commissioners have any other questions for the applicant? Also, please let the record reflect that uh Commissioner Corrado's here. >> [laughter] >> Commissioner Mastin. I'm much more familiar with uh a commercial building code than I am residential, but I think if this was a commercial property you would need to have a 42-in railing. Is this >> Residential is 36. >> Okay. Just wanted to confirm before we >> and we've already had the conversation via Zoom call with the inspector that's going through plan review. Got it. Thank you. Are there any other questions from commissioners for the applicant? Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. Commissioner Thomas, sorry. This isn't really a question for you. Um I just wanted to share my love of old historic windows and that I understand the need to replace them especially because of the lead it's very difficult to remediate. Um but I want you to always consider fixing windows instead of replacing them. Um replacement windows you'll probably throw them in the trash by the time you make up any energy savings from them and replace them again. And those wood windows could last another 100 years. Um so um I thought those windows were in great shape for the most part. Um and this is nothing for your application. I just you know, have to advocate for the historical old windows. So No, I I completely understand and I I respect that and like I said, we're trying to still maintain the historical aesthetic and and keep with the wood sashes and uh hopefully when we're done with the project that it it can be something that the everybody on this council can look at and and be proud of and be that happy that it's preserved in a way that um keep keeps the historic um historic character alive. I appreciate it, guys. Thank you. >> much. Thank you. Chair Bjornberg and Commissioner Maston, I think that's where the question came from. There's a question about um an interstitial spacer. Um we use that language because it is in a lot of our design guidelines and I will um of course admit I am not a I do not build windows. I'm not a window contractor in particular. Um the the point is to create a gap, but I do think that something is needed to create the gap and now I I don't feel qualified enough to know if that has to happen right in the muntin or or the the bottom. Um I think we understand that in this particular case, of course, the whole point of having to add these casement windows is to create egress. Um and so we don't want to put a condition on this that would um uh affect it. Um our building code reviewer and I had a brief conversation. She shared the requirements that Lance read. Um that that does allow grills. Um but again, the key point is to make sure there's enough clearance with the clear glass that um fire safety can can occur with that. So, um I don't know that I fully answered your question, but that that is what I can provide at this point. Um I do have information to address Commissioner Wallace's previous question if you'd like me to answer that. Okay. Yes, please. So, Commissioner Wallace, you had asked previously about the guideline related to railing. So, this is 8.52. Um when the current building code requires a taller railing height, consider providing a second railing above the historic one to achieve achieve a greater overall height without changing the appearance of the original. Um so, that is the I would say equivalent to the the built-up version that is being suggested. Keeping in mind that the the language is consider. Um, it's not necessarily a strict requirement. Thank you. Thank you for that. Uh Do staff have additional comments? >> [laughter] >> Here beyond brick, yes. Go for it. Thank you for that permission. Um, just adding a little bit on what um Aaron K had said about the interstitial spacer. It is a gap between the panes of glass. It can be a component which is a physical component. It can be gas. It can be air. It can be whatever, but normally how we see it and how it's incorporated into our design guidelines is an actual physical component that happens between the glass. Um, sometimes it can extend the whole way. Sometimes it doesn't, but it's basically to to maintain that separation and then muntins can be applied on the exterior or the interior to be removed in the event of an egress situation. However, um I think I think Aaron had said this, but I just if just I guess clarifying is that when it comes to the egress, I believe the building reviewer had said that the the purpose is to be able to break the pane of glass in one pane so that you know, cuz we had initially had discussed um true divided lights and that is not egress compliant because we would have to break individual panes and then that's when you get the grid and that doesn't work in terms of an egress situation, but my understanding from the code reviewer is that be able to would have to break the be able to break the pane of glass in one pane so that it comes out and people can escape, but if that um hoping that provides just more information and answers to help you make your decision. Thank you. Thank you for that. Okay. Um there not being any others, um I'll close the public hearing. Commissioners, let's discuss. Are there any comments on the proposed application? Commissioner Melbom. Yeah, I'll just add. Um so, you can put different types of windows. Some of them have external attachments for mullions, and some of them have a piece also that goes on the inside. You can do one or the other. You can do both. Often people, if you're trying to make something look as historic as possible, you will do the pieces on the outside and the inside because then it looks integral, um but it's not because it's one big piece of glass that the firemen can break the whole thing. The interior pieces negligible. In fact, it's sometimes it's just foam. So, it's negligible resistance. So, having that interior piece does not affect the ability of the window to act as a fire window, a fire egress window. Thank you for that. Other comments from commissioners on any of these items. I'll say uh I I in terms of the railing, the sort of first condition, I do agree that a like built-up railing visually I think would look better. Um I I think that if it were to get completely removed and rebuilt, it would need to have the design that it currently has. I I think that that's a really nice um feature, and so I would not really be for removing that feature and just having like a a plain um picketed railing. Anyone? Uh Commissioner Smith and then Corrado. Thank you. Um I I guess I do have a question with regards to the railing should it be rebuilt. Uh would it be permissible instead of doing a built-up railing to do a redesign of the current railing at a scale that is that meets code. Um I don't know if that's something that would fall under that particular neighborhood's guidelines, uh but I just wanted to raise that. Yeah, I appreciate that question. I do not know. I did also think about that, but I'm um happy to hear other people's comments and Commissioner Corrado is next. Yeah. Um I guess my concern would be the columns have a specific design and the design of the railing speaks to the design of the column particularly where it's wider versus where it tapers. Um so my concern with a design that perhaps meets the current regulation is that it's disproportionate and that the heavier sort of current um railing should remain at that height and then the additional to required to the required code height would ought to be lighter in visual appearance, I guess. Other thoughts on the railing? Commissioner Thomas and then Wallace. Um I I I would love them to be able to keep as much of the original railing as possible, keep it the same height. I do think a railing behind it would look a little weird. Um I would prefer to see a built-up railing instead. Um and also, I know I've seen this isn't applicable to the state, but I'm sure there are other code compliances I've seen where they can do like a really dark wire that you can barely even see that meets code requirements but doesn't visually distract from the existing railing. And I don't know if that could meet code as well, but just something that I thought we could consider. Commissioner Wallace. I'm actually concerned about the condition of the railing. I think that I mean I agree with you on the design pieces. I fully understand all of that, but I think the condition of the railing is concerning both for the lead abatement and just for the rotting wood. Um and if something could be constructed I mean we started to get into some of these design questions, but I think that it sounds like there's willingness from the applicant to rebuild it even if it maintains the exact design and height of the original plus the built-up piece. I think that might be the best compromise. It's sort of it's a little messy, but it it might hit all the all the pieces we're talking about here. Yeah, thanks for that Commissioner Wallace. I I agree with that. I I do um think that the photos did help. Um make that condition case. Um Commissioner Melblom. Yeah, I'll I'll I'll add my voice to that agree cuz that's what I was thinking was that it looks unsafe just because it's pulled away. And it's just going to keep getting worse over time. So my thought would be just to replace it exactly as it is, but with new wood and then to build it up so that it actually meets um code. The other thing that I would that kind of jumps out out of all this with me would be to allow them to do um >> [clears throat] >> uh glass block basement windows cuz I think it's a safety issue um on the side of the the the facade facing the side street. Thank you Commissioner Melblom. Other thoughts on that glass block window conversation from commissioners. I feel like I do remember the the the UVM campus conversation. I don't remember what um we ended up sort of saying. I I do want to say that it was that it got um appealed because and I know that they had continued like actual having um security incidents. Like they were always having broken glasses you can assume and >> [laughter] >> uh basement window on campus. Um so I know that that was a a challenging conversation. Commissioner Wallace? Yeah, I had a similar thought to Commissioner Melbom about that least on the secondary elevation. I understand that it's visible from the right away, so I understand the recommendation, but um I think the profile, especially I mean you can see in the winter you can barely see the the windows. Like I think there's there's some flexibility potentially on that um the side elevation. Other thoughts on that item from commissioners? Okay, any thoughts on the Commissioner Thomas? I just wanted to bring up um condition number um six um on that third elevation where they want one window to be casement and one to be double hung. While I am a big advocate for keeping the old windows and keeping them the same, I have to agree with the applicant that the two windows next to each other would look better and more accurate um if they matched. I could see somebody really eyeing those a lot more if they didn't match. So. Commissioner Alexander? Just to clarify, both of those would be new replacement windows, right? We're not saving a window in in either situation. So, I I would agree. I think it would be better if they they match and they're the same and we're not drawing attention to the the mismatch there. Other comments from commissioners? On on that. Andrea? >> [laughter] >> Thank you. Um just wanted to Andrea Bergin, um thank you Chair Bierberg. Just wanted to I did look up what that project was. It was 1104 Street Southeast. The first um application to bring that project through was denied by the HPC. It does not appear that it was appealed and then it was brought back almost a year later with a different scope of work um to repair and replace some windows and that was approved with conditions. So, thank you. Thank you for that clarification. Other thoughts on this application? I know Commissioner Melblum is doing some wordsmithing, it looks like. >> [laughter] >> It's a hefty one. >> [sighs and gasps] >> Commissioner Corrado. Yeah, I guess in the commentary on that, the mullions, the muntins, um I did sell windows at one point. >> Mhm. The simulated dividers are just so that they look like they're separate panes of glass, but they're not meant to be structural. They're it's it's really a cost savings thing and also sort of a current technology sort of a thing for insulation. So, um it should not I don't think that's what's meant by the code. So, a grill and a removable, that's more of a security grill issue. When it's hard to get in and out, um those windows do get broken in transit sometimes and it they're very easy to remove from my memory. Thank you, Commissioner Akradi. >> [snorts] >> Other comments from Commissioners at all? Commissioner Melblom. Okay, so hearing no other comments, >> [clears throat] >> I'm going to make a motion that the Heritage Preservation Commission approves the Commission Preservation application to rehabilitate front porch and replace windows on the property listed, or excuse me, located at 504 University Avenue Southeast in the Saint Anthony Falls Historic Historic District. >> [cough and clears throat] >> Excuse me, subject to the following conditions. Um, so this would be modifying condition number one, existing wood railings on the front porch shall be replaced to match existing railing and added to to make code compliant. And then, keeping condition two and three, >> [clears throat] >> striking condition four, keeping condition five, striking condition six, and keeping condition seven. Thank you, Commissioner Melblom. I'm going to look at the clerk to make sure that they got that. Okay, thank you. Um, is there a second or any questions on that? Motion seconds. Any further discussion? Okay, seeing none, will the clerk call the roll? Commissioner [snorts] Alexander I Corrado I Melblom I Rodriguez I Smith I Thomas I Wallace I Vice Chair Mastin I Chair Bjornberg I There are nine eyes. Thank you. That motion passes. That concludes our public hearing items. Do staff have any announcements? Thank you. Um Chair Bjornberg, I'm Andrea Burke and I'm the supervisor for the historic preservation team in CPAD. I do have a few announcements this evening. This is a reminder that the HPC special meeting or retreat as we call it is next week on Thursday, May 7th. It starts at 3:00 p.m. And we have booked it till approximately 6:00 p.m. but um very high likelihood chance it will end sooner than that. Um room change than we had of it in previous years. It actually will be held down the hall here in the overflow room from this um boards and commissions chamber. So I think on the door it says room 338, but technically it is part of room 350, which is what this room is. So um because the meeting is open to the public, that's uh the reason for the change in the room. Um so please go to that room. Um also an update on the Cook House demolition, which went back to the Business Housing and Zoning Committee today of the City Council. That was forwarded without recommendation to the City Council meeting next week, which is on Thursday morning, May 7th. So that is the latest update on that project. Um if you had noticed I was taking a few photos tonight. Um we will share further what these are for, but wanted to get some um pictures of the HPC more or less in action um, for a future um, event. Um, and then um, also wanted to reach out as we are moving forward and beginning to come into the closing months before the National Alliance of Preservation Commissions Forum conference. Um, I will be asking and asking now to begin to put the the seed in your head about volunteers um, for uh, this conference. If you have capacity, I know I've reached out to everybody about registration, but if you have capacity or you are interested or if you are available, um, we will need lots of volunteers for either registration help, people to help um, corral tours, whether they are room monitors or special events. Um, we will have lots of opportunities. So if it's not you or if you know somebody who would be interested in volunteering, um, please reach out to Aaron or myself and we can add that name to an a list of interested people that are um, willing to help out at this cuz we will need lots of volunteers for this. Um, there is a bit of a, you know, if you are a volunteer for so many hours in specific, that's 4 hours that day, you can attend the rest of the sessions without a registration. So if it happens to be somebody who's interested in that or not, that is fine, too. Um, also just I will provide more info but wanted to give an update. So as part of this conference, we are organizing an event where it's a a meet the Heritage Preservation Commission and I will need to probably talk with the clerks, but my hope is not to have enough for a quorum where we [laughter] would need to notice for it. Um, but it is uh, the event is specific to meeting the HPC of past and and present. So I'll be reaching out to more HPC commissioners who no longer are currently um serving, but if you are interested would love to have a few current HPC members there to meet individuals. Um I do know the date. It's on July 23rd. It's from 3:00 to 5:00 p.m. It'll be held at the forum cafeteria space um that's being opened for this specifically. So I would really love to have a few volunteers and I will send out a reminder to to ask for those um volunteers. So that is I'm just checking my list here. That concludes my updates for this evening. Thank you. Thank you. Do commissioners have any updates? Oh, uh Commissioner Walls, just a question for you. Um are there so I will be out of town during the conference. Are there any um volunteer opportunities for before the conference or I could reach out to you separately, but if there are that just wondering for the good of the order. Yeah, Chair Bierbrauer and Commissioner Walls, I'm sure there will be. Um this is a very large event that will need a lot of people to and we are having a lot of people to to help bring it together. So um please reach out. I can also I'll just add your name to my many lists that are going on for this event um to see if um you or anybody else maybe interested in helping out beforehand. So thank you for that. Commissioner Corrado. Related question, our call for volunteers going out to like professional allied professionals? Chair Bierbrauer and Commissioner Corrado, can you explain further? Oh, like the AIA is is the call for volunteers going out to that organization? Commissioner Corrado, I know the AIA has been reached out to. I would assume it's for volunteers, but I I can't be for sure. I know it they've been reached out to in other aspects, but um I can follow up on that and or check in about that at our next local planning committee meeting. Thank you. Commissioner Thomas. Um just a general announcement that Rethos will be hosting this our fourth year hosting Doors Open Minneapolis. It'll be May 9th and 10th. The event is free to attend. We have probably about 75 venues that will be opening their doors for people to come and see several tour opportunities as well. Um we also need volunteers. So if you want to sign up for I believe it's a 4-hour shift, you get a free t-shirt and you can skip the line at all the other venues when you go. Some of those venues get long lines, so it's usually worth it. Um and there's usually some volunteer after-parties and things as well. And um one of the unique things this year is we are the week prior to Doors Open, we are hosting City Stories. So it's a week-long um celebration of architecture and history. There are several events throughout the week um that will be open for tickets. Some are Some are free, but I think most of them are ticketed. We have sold out a lot of them, but there are still some that are open, so please look up Doors Open Minneapolis. Um hope we can check you out You can check it out on May 9th and 10th and hopefully you can volunteer, too. Thank you, Commissioner Thomas. Any other commissioner announcements? Okay. With that, we've completed all items on the agenda for this meeting. There being no other business, and without objection, I'll declare the meeting adjourned. Next regular meeting is May 7th. Thank you.