[music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music] >> [music] >> Heat. Heat. >> [music] [music] >> Okay, it is Monday, October 27th, 2025, 6 pm. am and I am calling this meeting to order and we will start with introductions. We'll start with Sarissa and work our way around. >> Sarissa Faulk, senior management coordinator. >> Good evening. Eric Nelson, city attorney. >> Uh Julie Rashank, acting city manager tonight, but normally the community development director. >> Darren Nelson, finance director. >> Paty Foster Bolton, ward one. Rebecca Shack, ward two. Kimberly Wilburn at large B and acting mayor for tonight. >> Kizzy Kley, ward four. >> Deb, excuse me. Deb Calbertt, at large seat A. >> Paulo Rome, W three. >> Matt Ka, park and trail project manager. >> Will Manchester, public works director. >> Aaron Walmer, AE2s. >> Phil Olsson, city engineer. Susan Thomas, city planner. >> Joel Mary, assistant finance director. >> Ryan Graph, A2S. >> David Dunham, A2S, >> uh, Dashlub, >> Zack Barkwell, >> James Zho, >> Ethan Barkwell, >> Oscar Alcazar, Agilu. >> Great. Welcome to our visitors. Um, we will start off with a the Minnitanka asset management renewal and replacement plan. And I believe >> over to Will. >> Over to It does say that, Will. [laughter] >> Oh, thanks. You'd find me eventually. So, >> well, welcome. Um, thanks for having us tonight. We're here to talk about essentially public works in the city. We've started on an asset management study. uh just kind of look at our infrastructure and Erin Wulmer is here from AE2s. He's going to do kind of a presentation on what the study entails, but if we could just advance. So, we'd like you to, you know, take a look at, you've probably seen the report already if you haven't read it. We're going to kind of run through the highlights and then we'd like your feedback. It's not finalized. It's in draft form and so it's not a signed report. We'd like to hear what you have after that. And just to kind of recap and you know what we're looking for is we've done the study. It's going to give us our priorities and our funding opportunities. And so it's a high level plan. Um Aeron's going to run through and it looks at a couple different things. It looks at an inventory of our assets, kind of the risk assessment that goes with those and then financial planning. And so it kind of leads into what uh Mr. Nelson and his folks are going to talk about after this regarding rates. And so we'll kind of cover this and then we'll kick it over to them. After it is a draft plan and so we're looking for your feedback after this. We would take any feedback you have and look to finalize the document and come forward again in the future. And this isn't the last you'll hear. I mean this is a highle planning document. It helps us kind of just set a framework. >> Oh boy. Because that was a lot to [laughter] be high level. >> It is a lot and it you know it's a lot of infrastructure and a lot of funding and that's kind of what we'd like to highlight tonight. There's a lot there and so we just kind of want to run through it. So I'll turn it over to Aaron, let him introduce himself. Um he knows a lot about PAS. So if you have any POS questions too, >> I always he would be an an expert in that category. So I'll turn it over to him. Thanks. >> Uh so mayor, members of council, my name is Aaron Balmer. I'm with AE2s. I'm out of our Maple Grove office in the Twin Cities here. So uh we've worked with the city of Minnetonka and and staff for probably the better part of two decades. And >> um we did did a study similar to this in 2013 and this is really another round of that at a uh we call it a high level look but there was a lot of uh deep investigation into your assets. So we're excited to uh to meet with you today to talk about our asset renewal and replacement plan uh and asset management. So I guess the the big question is what is asset management? Um it's a lot of different things to a lot of different people, but really it's making the right decisions at the right time for the right reasons. And we do that through >> [clears throat] >> um a structured process of developing uh how we operate, maintain uh and dispose of assets to minimize the cost uh and risk to the city. We our goal is really to stretch out the lifespan of your assets as long as possible. So to do that uh we collect a lot of data and we try to project on when those assets will fail. Uh this is a case where that asset failed before we thought it would. Uh and this is really really what we're trying to avoid when we talk about asset management. We're trying to avoid critical failures that cost a lot of money to repair because we waited too long. We're trying to get as much out of your infrastructure as possible uh but replace it in a time frame that limits the risk to the community. Um, so as Minnotonka has aged, a lot of your assets do fail. Uh, we have a few pictures here that show some of those failures. This is a water mane that had a a pipe failure, a spot that corroded and and broke. You might see these from time to time. You might see situations like this where a pressurized main um uh breaks and causes a little bit of uh damage in the area. um to repair those brakes. Oftentimes staff will excavate that break and then repair it with a band or band-aid um and that's it. And then they they fill the hole back in. And oftentimes you'll have a break 10 feet down the 10 feet down that'll break again in a year. So we really try to avoid these types of scenarios because that's costly. Uh it takes a lot of staff time and a lot of city dollars to repair those and it's not the most efficient way to to go about operating utility. Um here's a few other pictures of failures. >> Oh boy. >> Not only did we look at underground utilities, we also looked at your horizontal assets on the surface. So roads, trails, street lights. Um so again this is an example of uh various road work that you are all probably very familiar with in town. Um some additional asphalt replacement work, some trail work that happens from time to time and uh and also milling overlay which you guys uh do a great job on maintaining your streets. So that was something else we we wanted to look at and find opportunities where we could um find find projects that not only addressed the the failing surface but also address the utilities underground and and accomplish those projects in one uh project to be again more efficient. Um so I mentioned that A2S had done a similar study uh in 2013. Um the city has done quite a few different um what I call asset management type studies over the last uh 15 years or so. Uh you accomplished a a street you know kind of overlay maintenance analysis in 20 uh 2011 that we had the 2013 study for water supply and treatment sustainability. Uh the main and Wilson lift station study uh you looked at your trail network uh and looked at gaps in that. Uh and then we also did a storm water lift station assessment in 2017. So um so we had a lot of uh good planning documents ahead of this. Um really the things we consider when we uh are accomplishing asset management uh study. We look at uh the ver we basically look at the availability and accuracy of the data you have. So Minnotonka really does a great job collecting data and that's really important to do a good high level analysis of your assets. Um but some challenges uh we have to there's varying life cycles uh between those assets. Um [clears throat] it's hard to sometimes project the actual condition of those assets versus the expected life. Um and it's sometimes costly to actually do those analysis. So that's a challenge uh when we when we do these studies. Um changing regulations and design standards. Uh we project as best as we possibly can when it comes to the life of assets. Uh but as Will mentioned um POS uh is one regulatory consideration that we probably didn't really uh fully appreciate 10 years ago. There will likely be others in the future that we have to address. So uh we do our best to project those impacts, but oftentimes uh those are changes to this plan in the future uh that we'll have to just be nimble and address when they when they [laughter] pres present themselves. Um and then staffing requirements to implement these recommendations. That's something we continually need to reassess depending on the amount of work that's being done in the community what the staff requirements might might be. So when we develop this plan uh we look at your asset inventory. So for utilities uh we look at water sanitary sewer storm systems. We looked at your streets, trails, bridges, street lights, uh signals and signs. Uh warning sirens, retaining walls and guardrails. uh we look at that the install dates material the size expected life and replacement costs of all those different assets and that's all factored into this analysis. Um so if we dive into some of the details so we'll start with water. Uh so the city has 18 wells, eight water treatment plants, eight water storage tanks and two booster stations. Uh generally you have adequate supply and capac and storage capacity. So, there's no recommendations to change that really. We're just looking to uh maintain the assets you do have. Uh you also have about 310 miles of underground pipe, uh 2,900 hydrants, and over 8,650 valves in your system. All of or the majority of that was installed between the 1960s and 1980s. So, this is a a brief map of your current water system. This chart shows those install dates. So you can see uh really the majority of the assets were installed for your water system were installed in the 1970s. Um I think that speaks volumes when you look at what that might uh mean for the future of replacement of those assets. uh as we look at the expiration dates of those various assets within the community uh this is what we expect to see. >> So 19 or sorry 2040 and 2070 will be major decades uh for this community as far as asset renewal and replacement. So when we take that and break it down into costs and we look at vertical infrastructure and horizontal infrastructure, this is really what those costs look like long term. Um so in 2040 we peak at about 80 million and in 20 2074 we peak at 120 million and this includes inflation and some of the projections um for uh renewal. But yeah, generally those are the numbers we're expecting will need to be funded. And again, this looks out 50 years. Once you get out to year 50, it's very foggy. But our recommendation to staff as we continually update this tool and continually reassess our assets to make sure that we're planning really well in the first 15 years. Everything beyond that, it's really just projections to help further guide rates. For sanitary sewer, u there are 38 sanitary lift stations, 14 and a half miles of force main. Again, we feel that the system is sized adequately. It's really just a focus on rehab and renewal. Uh there's about 305 miles of pipe um gravity sewer and 7,800 man in the community. Again, most of that was installed between 1960 and 1980. a little bit later than your water system. Mostly because um water typically leads uh a lot of communities as they grow homes are on septics. So it's takes time to expire those septic tank tanks and sewer the community. Again, this is just a map of the sewer system. This is the age of or this is when the majority of your sewer system was installed. And similar to water, this is our projection on when most of those assets will expire. [clears throat] That was force mains. Oh, sorry, gravity. This is for force mans. Again, most was installed in the 1970s. Most will expire in 2040 and 2070. And then this is the costs that we would anticipate to see when those expirations happen for streets. So we also looked at your street system. Uh you have 258 miles of city streets. Uh the city generally overlays uh at 20 and 40 years and does a full reconstruct at 60 year life. So that was included in our analysis. You have 32 vehicle bridges, uh 26 trail bridges, and there's generally a 75 year life expectancy for those assets. We also looked at street lights, traffic signals, and other um assets along your road corridors. generally a 40-year life expectancy. That's the goal. Oftent times they're not replaced uh at that frequency, but that's the goal is that we're replacing them at about 40 year life. And traffic signals, there's 5,150 signposts with 8,400 signs at about a 20-year life expectancy for your street system. And this is the expected expiration date for those various assets and the costs. >> City also has 100 miles of trail which is a great asset but does take money to maintain. So we include that in the the renewal plan. There's 30 m 39 miles of proposed future trail segments to be installed. And this is the anticipated expiration date of those various assets and associated costs. We looked at storm systems. So we have uh the city has five storm lift stations with 3,850 ft of force man. the we do feel that there are likely upgrades required uh to your storm system due to uh design standards changing. A 100red-year storm event is no longer really a 100red-year storm event. Uh the industry is really starting to recognize that. So there will likely be upgrades required uh in your storm system. As far as the horizontal assets related to storm, there's about 170 mi of pipe with 11,600 structures and 2,000 outlets. uh we have about 200 city storm water ponds and 300 and some catch basins. All those need to be regularly maintained based on our projections. This would be the expiration date of those assets and the associated costs. So I've bored you with all the details. Uh I think the important part is we take all of those and we layer them together to understand if the city needs to maintain all of these different assets when are they going to expire and what kind of funding we need to plan generally to to support the replacement and renewal of these assets. Um in 2019 uh from 2019 to 2028 uh the city of Manka has spent around $20 million annually on asset renewal. uh of these assets um and that's budgeted through 2029 I believe to continue that level of investment um in increased investment will be required to continue to maintain assets you do have as you can expect. So if we take all of those various assets and we layer them together and we put together a comprehensive uh graph that shows the replacement schedule and the costs of those various assets uh for the next 50 years. This is um the the result as you might expect uh in in 2040 we start to see a lot of those assets come due and then another uh peak uh as we get into about 2070 uh so the tail end of that 50-year projection. So if we step back a little bit further and don't look at so much at detail as far as the layer cake of those various assets and we just generally look at the dollar amount broadly that's going to be required to sustain uh and and renew these assets. Uh this is a a bit broader picture. Uh that current level of funding is that red line. So we have the first two bars are your last two five-year CIP increments the amount of investment that you've currently been making. Um so you can see that without increases in funding uh we will be drastically underfunding the asset requirements. >> Is that taken into account that's inflation adjusted? >> Yes. So the anything past the the first two bars is inflation adjusted at I believe 3% a year. >> So final thoughts. Um really this effort is intended to help not only uh fine-tune the short-term CIP development, gives us clarity on some of the urgent projects that need to be accomplished in the next what I'll say 10 to 15 years. Um but also helps develop a long-term understanding of level investment that we need to make to sustainably maintain the city of Minnetonka. There's about $1.5 billion in horizontal assets that need to be replaced in the next 50 years. Uh, and there's about 629 million in vertical assets that need to be replaced. Um, in just the next 15 years, there's just under 70 million in vertical water, sewer, and storm assets that will require replacement. Um, and about 925 million in road, and 57 million in sidewalk, and trail replacements in the next 50 years. So, those are daunting numbers. I understand that those aren't small numbers. They are over time. So, I think that's important to consider that this isn't an instantaneous cost, but it's important that we start thinking about how can we get ahead of that ball and start making the right investments and making rate increases so we start to put ourselves in a really good position to cover these costs. Um, again, this is a planning document for not only short-term decisions, but long-term planning. uh and it sets the foundation for various project prioritization uh and helps uh city staff work together to prioritize projects and do projects that have multiple uh benefits to the community to again be more efficient with the dollars we are spending and with that happy to take feedback from >> I'll just say thanks to Aaron you know we know it's a lot of money we know it's probably overwhelming to be honest but we want to get it in front of you just so you can kind of see what we're We're project we're going to try to get everything we can out of every asset. This isn't a time clock where we get something and I'll replace it. It's not the case at all, but this is our projection of where we're likely going to end up in the range. So, sort of back to Dr. W. Any questions? >> Then council feedback. >> I have I have some questions before I have feedback. So, we talked about inflation being built into the projections, but what about population growth and capacity? You know, they built out, you know, most of the underground infrastructure in the 70s and, you know, we're supposed to create so many um units of housing and, you know, people are moving out here and we're talking about density and so forth. So, that's my first question. Yeah, Council Member Calver, I we work with community development very closely on all this and so a lot of the city is set up on, you know, zoning and everything related to that. So, as of right now, and we don't certainly upgrades and situations would need to be made, but for the most part, Opus is a good example. I mean, it was planned for the future and for the most part, we're sitting okay on, you know, what's happening there. You know, we're tracking the big areas, but one oneoff scenarios could certainly come up. But we think as far as capacity goes, we're okay. >> So, thanks. And I h I have these are short questions. So with climate change, which you mentioned a little bit having to do with storm water, but also with the horizontal assets, um, uh, are we changing the rul like we have different freeze thaw patterns and you know the wet weather and I'm just is that something that you're noticing that there's shorter life in the Uh, as far as the RUL goes, I don't know that we're changing the lifespan. I don't know that global warming is changing the lifespan of your assets. Um, they would go through those patterns regardless. Um, I think what we're generally seeing in the industry is water conservation is driving water use down. So assets that were maybe installed 40, 50 years ago when water use was much higher on account per capita, those assets are able to accommodate a little bit more growth because people are using less water. Um but also we don't necessarily need to upsize them when they're replaced. So um as far as the longevity of those assets generally ductal iron if you have looked at the study there's kind of a a table that goes over the life expectancy of various types of >> Yeah. No I I saw but I was just thinking also of streets it it is it's a different pattern. It's it's very different and so I was just wondering if it's taking its toll and you know what that would mean for a study like this. And then um my other question has to do with um what our pipes are made of and the coatings and I've asked this of uh Mr. from Manchester in previous meetings I'm sure but you know we have [clears throat] um let's see poly styrene something or other and the PVC and I'm thinking about leechets and also you know thinking about what pipes used to be made of and what they're made of now are these the best m I mean these are the best materials that we can afford right now but are these I don't even know how much we know about PVC lifespan compared to say concrete or metal. >> So um the the industry is so American waterworks association and the EPA do a lot of research on various pipe materials being utilized in the municipal drinking water market. uh and there's no indication that any pipe material that's approved is harmful to the public. Um so at this time we don't anticipate that anything that's being >> they also tell farmers to spread bioolids with POS all over there. So right I'm a little skeptical but yeah >> yeah we're always constantly watching them. I mean we're tracking everything. Erin's a big part of AWA. So is Mike you know from the city and our engineering folks. Phil, we certainly don't want to use anything we shouldn't do. We'll continue to watch it. So then my last question has to do there was a table on page 95 of the packet 103 as you scroll and it's the vertical sanitary sewer recommended projects from 2029 to 204 2044 and it's all $500,000. Well, you know, and and so I'm just wondering um I found that one a little confusing. >> Yeah. >> If we go to that, >> it looks like an error on our part. So, I think we'll check we'll check it. I think it might have transferred over from a table or something. >> Okay. because we do on page 97 there's something similar and it does have numbers that do seem to account for inflation. So, but I just found that one a little bit confusing >> and we can we can ask our team but my my um my thought is that the all of these lift stations are fairly similar. So, as a budgetary number, they used about half a million dollars for a standard replacement of these assets, but then they're indexed forward when they actually place them on a rehab uh schedule. So, um but we can definitely talk with our team and confirm that. >> And then on page 108, it said it had the 2.13 billion as detailed and then it says in error reference source not found on page 108. That's right. So, but I'm assuming that the number 2.13 billion is it's the accurate number because >> um >> page 103 has pageionated. >> Yeah, that's our that's an error on ours. It sounds like a reference. We'll double check it. Okay. >> Apologies. >> Thank you. Um so, I have a question. Um can you give an idea of so like take uh water mane like the cost of if there's a water mane failure and the cost of that versus the cost of preventative you know regular replacement. >> So uh council member will so your question is more the difference between an emergency replacement versus a planned replacement. Yes. What can we expect for I don't know that I have a great answer. I would guess at least 20% more for an emermergency replacement, >> but I I really don't know. It depends on a lot of different factors, where the failure was, time, how critical it is to replace um >> we'd look at the individual materials, everything that goes with it. But yeah, I would say 20 25% for sure. Right. So water main break right now can cost anywhere from 15ish,000 is probably an average water mane break repair by the time you dig up the street, put the street back together. You know, there's been others that have definitely been more than that depending on the situation. So that's just one spot in a tiny little street. >> For example, to follow up on that, say um some of the things we've seen in surrounding communities like St. >> I can't hear. Everybody needs to speak up a little bit because I don't it's hard to hear over here. Not just you Paula. >> Um sorry. >> Yeah. Um so we've seen in surrounding communities Maple Plane, St. Louis Park and in recent years where they've had catastro catastrophic failures and then sink holes. So it's not just the replacement. Am I correct? consuming of like the materials the extra 25% but then if you have catastrophic failures that will result in a sinkhole then that's a lot more that because you've got other reconstruction there on top of it. Is that correct? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Okay. I my question maybe is more directed at staff, but is was there anything that came out of this that was a particular surprise either to the benefit or you know that things were aging or or needing replacement sooner? >> Uh council member Shaq, no. I mean I don't I mean I think we expected what came out of it. I mean certainly the numbers but I mean that's always surprising but you know the peaks are the big things we're looking for clearly. So 2040 2070 I mean we're not we weren't oh it's going to hit in 20 240 or it's going to hit in 20. So those were definitely new to us but I don't you know we know this needs to get replaced. It's a constant cycle. I mean, as soon as we replace something, you know, the time clock starts and it's going to eventually come up again. But, um, just, you know, the scale of it. >> Okay. Any other questions? >> I guess my question would be, um, is there funding other sources of funding like from the state for big projects like this or is this something um, you know, city taxpayers have to kind of work up over the years. >> Yeah, good question. >> Funding coming. >> Yeah, >> there's a lot. >> Good question. Darren's probably sweating over there, but [laughter] >> it's a great segue. The hearts. >> There's always I mean, we're going to constantly pursue grants. Hopkins, like Mr. Olsson's here, Hopkins Crossroads a great example. I mean, we've pursued federal and state money on other projects. We'll continue to do that. But, you know, there's certainly a lot for the city here. >> And I guess my next question, I mean, you probably don't have the answer to this, but like if you think about like over the next 25 to 50 years and we're talking about these huge numbers. I mean, like what is it going to cost the taxpayer per year? I mean, if you think about like how much taxes are they taxpayer going to need to increase to be able to help pay some of this? Like >> that's our next thing, isn't it? >> Yeah. >> That's exactly. >> Yeah. >> So, the next Yeah. When Darren jumps in, we can kind of talk about that a little further probably. [laughter] >> And he could throw it back. Could you though just simply >> could you explain a little bit about how infrastructure is paid for versus um general fund expenditures >> maybe quickly >> with tax dollars? Um yes. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] >> That's the answer. Uh yes. >> Thank you. >> Well, obviously yeah, it depends on your type of infrastructure here in the city where a lot of our street improvements have historically we've always paid for that with property taxes. Um we do get some municipal state aid dollars as well too that we utilize um for those infrastructure projects as well too. So it's a little bit of a mix there. Um our enterprises are water sewer storm water always been user based fees on on that end of it. So uh we have bonded on the water and sewer side of things. We haven't necessarily bonded on the on the street side of things, but knowing where that that peak is, I assume we all financing options will be on the table at that point in time. And that, you know, is it right for the current users to pay for all that infrastructure in 2040? Probably not. It probably makes sense for future users to pay for some of that as well, too. So, um, so it's be obviously a combination of that, but property taxes and user fees are are all going to be part of it. And I don't think Mitak is immune to it. I think every suburb in the in the metro in the state is is going to be experiencing the same thing on that end of it. We're probably ahead of the game I think on on this and and preparing for this and and looking that far into the future on this whereas others I think depends on what stage of growth you're are in as well too. So we're you know second ring suburb on that end of it. We'll be seeing some more of that redevelopment sooner rather than than later and whatnot. But it's it's got to be planning for it now and and start saving for it and use our savings and use some power wings at at those points in times and hopefully technology changes as well too. So hopefully there's some you know improvements in technology with you know sewer linings that we've seen over the last you know 15 years on that end of it have extended lives of of sewer projects or sewer um piping on that end of it. So um a little bit of a wait and see but obviously we got to plan for it on on this end of it and start planning now. So, >> okay. So, council, what feedback do we have in regards to study and projected funding needs? >> Thank you. Um, you know, I think that these are absolute non-negotiables, right? I mean, they're just fundamental to the operations of the city. And I it's very I think doing this and having this projection out 50 years is is very responsible and I'm appreciative of it. And we have, you know, we're fortunate in some ways that we're not on the front end of some of the biggest, but we have a responsibility, I think, to future councils to make sure that we're not leaving a mess and a problem for them. So, it's threading a needle. And I think these these analysis and studies are really critical to making sure that we're responsible stewards of the community. So, thank you so much. And obviously, we know from smaller capital items that we make the most of what we have and just because it's up for replacement, if it's still in good condition, then we're able to extend the life. And I trust that that's the same situation here. So, thank you very much for the staff and the consultant for the hard work on this. >> Go ahead. >> Well, this was really a humbling document to read. I mean, I have such tremendous um respect for our city staff, but this really will, you got your hands full. [laughter] So, um it was very humbling and I agree with everything that um everything that um Rebecca just said um that this is tremendously useful. It will help us plan. We have a responsibility to make sure that we are planning and and this is a huge step in us being able to um create the conditions that we want into the future. Um, I will say that at the doors, um, for instance, water utility, water and sewer utility bills came up at the doors this weekend because, um, and I know that we're going to address it in another, um, agenda item um because they just go up. And they said it's not so much our rates, it's all of the extra fees. So, I think all the things that we're planning on doing around transparency is going to be helpful. That said, um I do, you know, I don't know that we can put enough away. It I've been at conferences where they talk about the cost of of utility infrastructure and that there literally aren't enough dollars in the US right now to address the need. And um but I think the more we can take the pressure off of future years and build a nest egg and I didn't know if we could you know in anticipation of 2040 and 2070 take some of the pressure off um those particular years by you know spreading the spreading the work over more years. But um uh those are the things that I think of. But I do think that we have to um really put some thought into first of all a communication campaign with our residents about these things. um so that they understand what we are trying to plan for and um start putting the pieces in place financially and um sort of logistically to make sure that we can accomplish them. But this was an amazing study. I it was truly fascinating and I learned a lot and uh just thank you for the hard work. Kimberly. >> Oh yeah, go ahead. Um and that I so onto the communications piece of it too because it you know just going over the the rate study and the plan the rate changes and stuff like that that it does feel really responsible for us. Um also to explain that this isn't just this burden of these fees are not just on the present and that like the taking out bonds. This is for the future use too. And so people that are living here in the future will also share in the in the um payment of all this which makes a lot of sense. And I also think that's part of um something that I was thinking would be good to to talk to the residents about. like this isn't just on us and even even the planning of the future isn't just on us. Um, and but also I I also was talking to a friend of mine about, you know, all of this and how o overwhelming it is and all this other stuff and she said, you know, how um how how lovely it is that you are planning for the future that that you guys all have hope that there is, you know what I mean? Like this like this city will be around. No, for real. and just like the uncertain times right now and all this stuff. And she was like, "This is this this is really good important work for all of us and for the staff." But, um, I just thought I should point that out because it it did make me sort of double take like, "Oh, yeah. >> Well, it's the sexy stuff of sewer and water, you know." >> Yeah. But it's, you know, planning for a future because we're going to have one, [laughter] >> which is cool. >> Um, thank you. And thank you for, you know, just echoing what everybody else said. It's fantastic. As a wife of a civil engineer, I appreciate all the hard work that goes into it. >> Paula, you got to speak up. Sorry. >> All right. Uh, as the wife of a civil engineer, I appreciated all of the work that went into this study and also learned a lot. Um, so I won't repeat all of that. I will do is um just a question, a couple of questions and comments. Um, so I hope and it sounds like we're going to be looking at this even more so as a combination project um as we look at it instead of doing road work and then you know as much as possible combining I know that's the case now but it sounds like this gives us the roadmap to do that on even on an even grander scale. So, I appreciate that because I think um that'll go some ways toward reducing overall costs when we can do these as joint projects. I don't know if that's going to affect the timing of already planned road work and street work at all, but um you know, if it can help future planning, I think that'll be great. And then in terms of the communication plan, I totally agree. I also have been out at the doors quite a bit and talking and that that is a not infrequent comment and concern. Um, so I think maybe we as a city or I I don't care who does it. If staff, council members, somebody can get out with a video, a couple of nice videos that kind of explain um, and we can get into this when we get to the utility rate structure, but you know, what a base rate goes for. Um, you know, kind of helping people understand just like your electricity or your cable has your base [snorts] rate just to pay for infrastructure, you know, then we have usage pay. same thing we can do here for water and sewer and I totally agree on discussing bonding um for that as well which we'll get into. So thank you. >> Good idea. I guess on the communication part, I would just en encourage us to give it give it to the residents smaller pieces at a time because if we try to give it to them all at one time or just give too much information, I think it would be hard to understand because even as me as been a council and been on the council for a while, I still um don't quite understand all of it. So, I think just smaller pieces, making it really plain and basic, um, so folks can really try to wrap their minds around around it because, you know, when you try to explain something at this type of level and just trying the residents trying to understand like why we spending so much money and why is this, you know, folks are going to kind of get in a panic and it I mean, I'm sure people are going to be uneasy about it like if you know, some people may not even be here in 50 years, but they're still going to be thinking about like, okay, well, my children who are who are we who are trying to get to move in this city. I mean, that could be enough to discourage someone. I mean, I'm sitting here thinking like [laughter] Julia, I'm like, dude, I won't even you know, like even for myself, I'm like, oh, gez, that's a lot. But on the same um note, we know that, you know, Minnetonka is planning ahead, which is going to be good for our future, right? And we know that um whoever lives here and you know our future that lives here, they're going to have a well ran city. But at the same time, you know, you still you start to think about this. I didn't even think about it until now we're talking about I'm like, "Oh my goodness." Yeah, this is this is something to think about because it's going to be passed down to, you know, our future residents. So, um, yeah, I I just want us to be able to give it to our residents, smaller pieces, smaller chunks of information and maybe more simpler forms so folks can really understand what we're preparing for. And I will just quickly echo uh my fellow council members and [snorts] and uh appreciating having this study done and and the usefulness of it and and the the looking ahead and preparing um and you know whatever we can do when we're planning if there's ways to take the pressure off those big years. So I don't you know investing looking at all the different funding sources um all the things that we're doing but like if there's any creative things things we haven't thought of necessarily but like just so that you know you don't get to 2045 and have to spend $300,000 um >> 300 [laughter] million >> or 300 million. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. 300,000 would be okay. >> [laughter] >> So, yes. Um, so if nobody has anything else, we can move on to Darren and the utility rate study. >> Perfect. [snorts] Give us a second here to get the other presentations up. And >> thank you. I feel like my cheeks are >> I'll just kick it off and I'll run this over to you after you're done eating. How's the keyboard? >> Oh, are you running your own show? What are you doing? >> Perfect. >> Here, I'll take this and I'll give this to Ryan. >> I'll give you this and I'll just use a keyboard. I should be fine with just this, I think. >> All right. >> Yep. All right. >> We're ready to go. Good evening. Uh yeah, absolutely. So, this is uh kind of just state or this is act two here of this uh evening's play of uh asset management and utility rates. And so when Will talked a little bit about um well first I'll get into just kind of our discussion questions here kind of go over the formality stuff first so you guys are aware of what we want to look at a little bit tonight but um so our first discussion questions for tonight are does council support the proposed um changes to the water and sewer rate structure and then the second one is this um council support the rate changes for 2026 and then lastly looking for your feedback on our uh utility field fees and um possibility of storm water bonding in the future. future on that end of it. So, um this isn't the last time you'll get a look at the rates as well too. We'll bring this back in November when we usually do the budget study session there. We look at all of our enterprise rates. So, we'll look at recycling at that point in time. We'll come back with um any feedback that we get from tonight with the utility rates here on at that point in time and kind of bring those forward at that point and then obviously have to approve those at council um with a public hearing at some point in time to probably that first meeting in December as well with the with the budget like we know typically do in the past. And obviously this still relates to the infrastructure and asset management um in regards to relating to our strategic plan. Um obviously we need those financial resources to maintain that high quality infrastructure. And then is there any financial consideration? I think the answer is yes to that one. I didn't uh I don't think we need to go any further on on that but yes there is financial consideration to all of this on on that end of it. So um so a little bit of little bit of background on where we're at. Um so we did have and I'm probably looking at the last presentation probably understands why we had um a big rate um change back in 2014 2015 which is probably off the back of some of the utility um um studies that were done at that point in time with our water treatment plants and some of that um vertical um asset um infrastructure at that point in time. council at that point took a a pretty aggressive approach and said, "Okay, we're going to increase rates." Um, I think that was in 2015, 2016 at a little bit higher percentages and then just to kind of get ahead of this and making sure that we're investing into our water treatment plants, into our water towers, those types of assets. And so, um, we've done that and we've had some fairly more mod than modest increases in our water rates, um, over that last decade or so. We've probably average 3.75% or so per year on that end of it. So probably a little bit higher than kind of that 3% annual increase or so. That's kind of typical cost of living um or an inflationary increase on that end of it. And so then um and that was the plan is that you needed to have those increases for the next you know 10 15 20 years on that end of it and such. And so then in 2020 and Baker Tilly helped us out or Springside at the time helped us out with that initial study in 2014 2015 time frame. 2020 we decided to have a kind of a refresh to look at it because we've been in do for five years or so and so we work with Baker Tilly there again to kind of refresher information provide them with new CIP information um we weren't necessarily looking much further beyond that fiveyear CIP we had you know some estimates of what our infrastructure cost would be but weren't necessarily looking at the whole citywide water and sewer infrastructure at that point in time we're looking at certain things that we knew that were coming up but really focused on that fiveyear CIP and items just beyond that that were obviously in the in the replacement plan at that point. And so then this year with um the asset management plan kind of taking place over the last year or two on on that end of it um really decided to take another look at that. So, it's been five years since our last rate analysis. Decided to have AH2S who's been looking at our assets in depth and really having a good understanding of what we have in the ground, what we have above the ground. Um, really come in and kind of do a rate study for us and help really kind of different perspective as well too. We'd had our municipal adviser um do a rate analysis which they did fine and did u got us to where we're at at this point in time and just wanted to have a little bit different perspective and so had Ryan come in with uh A2S and his group and um had had a little bit different experience of of looking at it from a little bit different perspective per se on that end of it and such. So um whereas that you know this focuses on all of it. So we got all the pipes in the ground, all the infrastructure above the ground, all of that type of stuff and really trying to set us up and it does take into account the future of, you know, the the replacement of all this infrastructure that's coming down the pipeline on that end of it. So u we are going to be looking at not to give it away, but we'll look at a little bit of the rate structure stuff. It was in your packet a little bit, so you probably are aware of kind of some the proposals that we're looking at on some of that revising that rate structure a little bit. We have had um just as from a customer service standpoint that infrastructure fee that we implemented I think that was in 2012 we implemented that um it causes residents a little bit of they don't necessarily understand quite what it is all the time. So we spend a lot of time explaining that to customers on that end of it. So if there's any way we can make that clear that may that may help us as well um providing a more transparent and easier to understand utility bill. And then on the storm water side of it too, that was the other part of it is that um storm water is a relatively new utility in the city. Um I think we started charging a storm water fee probably 20 years ago or so on that end of it. 25 years ago. Um actually it was just over 20 years ago I think on that end of it. Um and so we just been kind of going along. We got a good structure in place, but we've just been kind of going along with normal cost of living increases or, you know, CPI type of increases with our storm water piece of that and with new regulation or changing regul regulation and things like that. Um, Phil tells me we have 200 storm water ponds, which I think we saw in the last presentation and we are rehabbing about one maybe two of those a year. So, kind of do the math on some of that. It takes a while to to get to a pond to to rehab a storm water pond on that end of it. So, uh, we'll probably be looking at bonding potentially on some of that and looking at some rates down the road with the storm water as well, too. So, so with that, I think I'll kick it over to Ryan and he'll go through his presentation on the on the rates for both water, sewer, and storm water and then, uh, we'll kind of kick it back when inquire about questions and kind of go from there. So, kick it over to you, Ryan. >> Thank you very much, Darren. Um, Madame Mayor, members of council, it's uh a pleasure to be here tonight to be able to kind of explain, I think, the the other half of the story, right? The first half is um what do you have uh to look at across the horizon as far as infrastructure investments and then um from our perspective I'm with A2S Nexus is our financial group within uh A2S and we do focus on providing rate studies um and financial management for communities across the area. So when we came to work with Darren and the city, uh, you know, there were really, I think, two main goals that we had articulated at the time, uh, as far as kind of the leading factors in the study, right? Um, being able to support the long-term fiscal health of the utility, but we're doing that by looking at how we integrate the renewal and replacement plan. Um, that was done, you know, those those costs that uh do need to be funded through some mechanism, right? But at the same time, we wanted to also look at the right structure to make sure that the the structure itself was communicating uh you talked about communication tonight, but communicating with residents um the best way that you you wanted to the kind of key messages that as a utility help kind of support that long-term fiscal health, right? And so, um, one thing I do like to say when it when it comes to that is usually you don't have residents calling too often, um, inquiring going to your website too much to look at what the rate structure might be or what your priorities are. Uh, but they do end up paying the bill every month or every quarter I guess in this instance, right? And so, uh, that's one of really the key tools that you have to kind of communicate priorities even if it is just through, um, the dollars and cents at the end of the day. Uh overall um just kind of as we looked at the project, what we ended up doing is we did start by reviewing the rate structures and we do have uh some recommendations in here regarding those. Uh we did create utility models um financial models for your finance department. That'll be something that they're able to kind of take and maintain moving forward. So that coming from this study, they have a tool they can use every year to kind of san check how have we been doing? Um are we still on track? um what do we need to do to make sure that we either you know maintain where we are or again kind of improve without necessarily coming back to us every year to help you with that. Um and then at the end uh we have the recommendation of those revised rates that we do have for the community. So when we thought about the rate structure, we did a a pretty deep dive into how um water was used throughout the various utility accounts, how they were build um between your residential, your irrigation, and your commercial accounts. Um we looked at you know quarterly usage bills how much um were they on a a typical basis and then kind of came I think to three near-term recommendations that we did integrate into uh what we are recommending tonight. Um simplifying the tiers going from that four tier to the three tier. uh looking at having a water base fee or that infrastructure fee for both the water and and the sewer so that residents are better able to tell especially with the infrastructure costs you saw earlier you know how am I uh funding those pieces of um the system that I utilize on a on a daily basis and then looked at the irrigation rate uh as well on how can we structure that as far as tier sizing goes to make sure that it is um representative of what's happening but then also adequate as far as um revenue as well. Again, you know, it's uh improving communications there because again, I I like to think of how your your rates are structured is one of the key tools that residents see on that quarterly basis, but then also um encouraging responsible water use uh because it is a a resource that you know um as time goes on is scarce, right? And so while we have seen uh reduction in kind of average water use um among typical residents or overall across actually the nation as you have more efficient fixtures, it is something that the rates are are key in kind of helping to um show the actual value of what you're getting uh at the when you turn on the tap long-term. Um these are something just to kind of watch and consider as you know your um ability to do as a city between when you um implement new utility billing software or whatever. Uh but look at kind of the detailed review of the storm water allocation factors. That's right now on a land use intensity factor. Um but then also consider commercial water budgets as something that might be useful into the future as well. And that's where uh commercial users um they get kind of tailored tiers basically. Uh and as software advances it makes it easier for uh finance departments to be able to to do something like that. But you know it doesn't necessarily penalize your large water users for their responsible water use or compared to your small water users. And so everybody kind of has a sizing based on how they typically use water in a in a water budget scenario. Um and my angle makes it a little hard for me to read this but again I think these are the actual recommendations that uh we are making here where on the residential tiers um going from that three to four tiers and then also adjusting the volume in those tiers itself. uh ba that's based on how we've seen water use really among thank you um uh among the residential users when we did go and look at the the account basis um on that base fee again it's splitting that infrastructure fee between uh water and sewer just to better recognize how uh you do have infrastructure in both as opposed to just having I think it's currently labeled just as that sewer infrastructure fee or just a base infrastructure fee um and Then uh on the irrigation rates again it's it's really kind of tightening those volumes up a little bit just to uh one we are again reflecting how people are currently using water but then also uh because it does pro provide that kind of indicator about the the scarcity of water resources globally right um this kind of a snapshot on what the financial model uh that we're delivering to the city as part of the project is um but really what it it looks to project long term um how you have rates set for your community. We aren't recommending rates based on the long term today. Um, as far as as I think Erin had mentioned, you know, we do on the RNR plan, you know, that's looking out 50 years, but once you get past a certain point, it's hard to really say for sure what um the with I think pre precision maybe is uh what those rate needs are going to be. And so we look at a five-year um really at a time on to help set those rates and those needs there. and then recommend that you do go back on that annual basis as you have been doing to really make sure that um they are still uh supporting your your financial needs. Um the model also integrates that capital uh that we have integrated the RNR piece to the long-term planning and that's why we do look uh out just to be able to provide that tool um to kind of cross between the two studies. Um and then it it also can allow the the city uh to come in and change um rates as they need and as the the demand shifts over the years as well. And so I think too the the information that comes from it um we find useful when working uh from a financial planning perspective as the city. Uh a lot of times when um you do go out to bond, right? You can show that uh the rating agencies that you have a long-term plan to be able to fund these needs and that can help you get better rates, for example. Um or show that just coverage uh for your bonds or everything's met in a kind of a succinct package that uh helps kind of improve the and the communications for the city. Um getting into the nuts and bolts of I think the model itself. Uh really at the core of it is you guys have a service that you're charging for, right? Um that is the number of users is your your customer base, right? And the the amount of um water they use is really have the metric that you have to be able to kind of um sell uh to those customers, right? And so here's just a snapshot of your overall user base of about 16,000 residential accounts um and then about a thousand other commercial accounts and then uh irrigation is also uh about 5 460 500 uh irrigation accounts. And so by far uh I don't think this comes as a a shock. you're really a residential community from that perspective with the bulk of your users being um in that user group there. On the storm water side, uh because of your rate structure, we do break it down in a little bit more. Um and that's again kind of on how the intensity of the development goes. Uh and that's how um so you have about you know those almost 16,000 residential accounts but then the institutional uh that's where you break out some more of the um you know like schools places like that that might have larger green spaces uh all the way down to the actual open space and golf courses where um the actual amount of buildings that are on there uh and that have runoff that doesn't get absorbed right into the ground. Um and that's why you have all those different user groups between there. Um with that uh we incorporate the budgets into the for the model. Uh we are here showing your actual and your budgeted. Um, and then from there, since it is a long-term model, we escalate these budgets uh based on different inflationary factors depending on the line item to try to provide the uh most accurate look into the future as we can. Um [snorts] right now we have that baseline of the actual 2024 and the budgeted that we had for 2025 forming really that core and then uh on average it it ends up being about a little over 3% um inflation as we look at 26 27 and beyond. Um, this one I wanted to spend a little bit of time more time on. Uh, but really because that RNR study is I think providing a lot of great information. Um, but it's not all necessarily new information, right? Um we your public works department has been working u over the last 10 years uh as Aaron had said putting together different studies different looks at the needs across the community and the so you have been able to plan for a lot of those needs that were identified in the study. Um and so the approach we took to integrating it into your rate base into what you need from your utility rates was we looked at what you're doing today. um how does that uh and how does that fit into what the RNR study has identified as your need into the future, right? And so what you're doing today um you do have a a good policy of how you bond for projects. And so we look at the the principal payments that you make um on your bonds representative of the actual value of the asset that was put in place. We look at uh the specific projects that your public works team has identified uh are needed in any given year and we say okay if um throughout the course of the study we've maybe on average identified 10 five $5 million we'll say in um renewal needs in any given year and you have a million dollars or so in in debt service um and then you have $3 million in planned projects. we identify uh really a planning number of an additional million dollars there that we would want to fund through some mechanism of rates. Um whether it's all through rates or all knowing that um we're also going to have uh additional debt service issuances into the future. Um that's what we're looking as kind of our contribution then to how how we're planning, you know, so that as you said, future councils aren't necessarily left holding a a giant empty bag as a as opposed to uh with not being able to fund projects or things like that. Uh this is um what it actually looked like with your community. And so, uh, on the water and sewer side, um, you had in 2026 just about $4.5 million in planned capital on the CIP. Um, in when we then added debt to that, um, we identified on the water side about $1.3 million in uh, a projected or recommended contribution to reserve. Um I think real quick just so you do know uh the major timeline as a caveat of the RNR plan really starts kind of in that 29 and beyond. Um we are looking at how we can overlay some of those in a little bit sooner fashion, right? So you can use your discretion council to kind of ramp up into it. We built that into the rate itself. So, we aren't recommending that you fully fund the entire contribution today, knowing again that um there are plans for debt into the future that can kind of offset some of that and that um you know really the key to the plans kind of takes off in the next major update to the CIP. Um but then on this on the sewer side in 2026 uh and you can see in the black boxes below that the sewer overall target is a little bit lower than the wa about half of what the water is. Um and so uh we would re over the next couple years there's really no um recommended contribution to the sewer reserve because between the the identified projects that you're doing and the debt service uh on those projects that you've done in the past um you would have uh exceeded that kind of average uh planning number there of the 2.3 million on the storm water side. Um again uh between your your planned capital projects there and you don't have any debt yet on the stormwater side but you would be uh you do have planned capital projects in excess of kind of that targeted uh RNR reserve planning number. And so in the near term we wouldn't recommend any additional reserve uh contribution at this time. Um, but as you get out into that 29 and 30 time frame, if you don't have discrete projects added to your CIP on the storm water side, um, we would recommend starting to add some additional funds to the reserves to be able to cover future projects. Um, and so I think that gets to the I think the culmination, right? What are we recommending then as far as rates? um from 25 to 26, we are uh on the residential side recommending again that the three tiers instead of the four. And then recognizing that we are making some of the other adjustments, we are uh um recommending that the tier one goes down a little bit uh to $3.50 um with increases to tier two and three uh where the tier three is kind of at your top tier there, going up a little bit from your previous top tier. commercial side. Um so maybe to speak a little bit about tier one and tier two. Tier one often seen as kind of your basic standard indoor um water use. What do you need to wash dishes, do laundry, take showers, those types of uses. Um tier two is what you often call your responsible water use. Uh that's your outdoor um you know maybe you wash your car, water your garden a little bit, you know, but you're not running your irrigation system all day every day in July. Um and so that's when you get to tier three, that's your more um conservation tier they like to refer to it as, but that's really sending that pricing signal on the residential side that you really need to limit how much water you're actually using because it's not infinite. Um on your commercial, it's traditionally been your your winter water use or your non- peak water use has aligned with your responsible indoor use for residential. Um we've maintained that and then uh your summer um your May through September uh is really that tier 2 where they do we'll often have outdoor water use in that but uh and so they you have that increase there to kind of align with that outdoor water use that you see on the residential side too. Um we are maintaining the same dollar amounts uh as tier one and tier two on the residential irrigation. Um that tier one kind of aligning with responsible outdoor irrigation use uh is the same as tier two in the residential. Uh and then increasing from there um into the again tier three when you're using more than 100,000 gallons uh per your billing cycle. um just kind of wanting to send that conservation signal that that's starting to be a lot of water use in that top tier on the sewer side. Uh I didn't mention this earlier um but really looking to align your your Met Council um what charge you are getting from them but then also kind of articulating as an O andM um per thousand gallon volumetric tier. And so instead of having the one, we are saying that we could have the the two tiers or two uh rates there. Um not tiers, but two rates there to really be able to kind of message that a lot of the the costs that go um residents pay on the sewer side go to Met Council for the service that they provide to the community. And so we just want to be reflective of um a lot of those are outside of your control at that point um because those are costs passed on by Met Council. Um on the fixed side uh again we have talked about it but all splitting that existing infrastructure fee uh from one into two um and then increasing that fee as well uh on the water and sewer side. Um really the goal of increasing that fee is we wanted uh your your current fixed total fixed revenue fee was a a little over I think it was about 5 a.5 million um where as between your planned capital then and your debt service was um closer to about six and a half and then going up in the in the subsequent years. What we were trying to do is bring that uh infrastructure fee actually a little bit closer to the actual infrastructure costs that you have as a community. um still not 100% covering it on an annual basis uh but bringing it a little bit closer to really kind of align the two and so that's really the um madness behind that method there. Then on the storm water side, uh you know, I think the storm water utility uh the rates um and the capital needs that were identified uh were fairly well aligned and so just a little bit I think it about three three and a half% uh rate increase on that storm water side covers the projected demands. Then moving forward, we did include um projections through 2030 uh on the storm water continuing at 3%. Um on the water and sewer uh a little bit larger increases on the volumetric side um of five and 6% kind of in 28 29 but on that fixed side maintaining that 3% um should adequately fund the the utilities. And we do have uh comparisons of what this would place you with as um against your other peer communities. I would um point out that all the other communities here, this is before they've implemented any rate increases themselves into 2026. Um I think uh generally speaking uh you are a little bit ahead of um that and so uh I would expect that a lot of these communities are going to be um probably in that 3 to 5% range at a minimum uh moving forward if not closer to 10% depending on some of the varian they may have identified. And then uh overall more broadly across the metro area, this is where your existing uh rates are um on the residential side. Uh right kind of the middle of the pack and you'll move up a little bit if uh nobody else increases the rates, but um rate increases are I think especially uh in the city's area uh everybody recognizes that it's a cost of being able to maintain the the quality of infrastructure that you do have. So, um I did add a couple other than today than what was in your packet. Um maybe just to provide a little bit more insights into how uh your typical residential user falls within the tiers. Um if you see here, we showed you the 25th, the 50th, the 75th, and then the 90th percentile um of your user base based on your 2024 usage uh build usage. And so the vast m when we set that 15, we really set it to kind of align with your average user, the average bill that you had. Um, and then really at that 90th percentile there, uh, you have a very small number of users using a quite a few gallons. And so that's really aligns with kind of that cut off, new cut off on tier three. And so that, uh, again is a little bit of the peak at the data that goes with what that means. So um and then we did uh also provide uh bill estimates for residential users um at those 25 uh the average the 75 and the 90th percentile. So with that I hope I wasn't too longwinded and um but uh would take any questions that you did have. Go ahead. >> Go ahead. >> Okay. Couple questions. And the first one is when we look at kind of the comparison to other communities, does that generally tie to where communities are? I mean, it looks like the more the the >> I'm sorry. >> Cities that were developed earlier on this list seem to be in the higher. I mean, is that because they're because of the RNR piece and or do we not really know? >> I could get I could guess, but it may not be right, so I'm not going to. Um, it's it's really is hard to say. A lot of it overall though, um, it's not necessarily all RNR. Uh but also one of the big things is to their just water sources too plays a huge role in uh what water rates are for communities. So the level of treatment they have to do for >> and then this may be more of a staff question but when I think about this trying to draw a comparison we've done a lot of this kind of building up the funds when we look at our street improvement plan. Is this kind of now allowing us in this utility from per that perspective to to develop in the same way by saving up for big projects, doing a big project and then saving up again? Is that our philosophy? >> Yeah, Council Member Shack, it is. Yeah, I mean, working with what they're doing in the RNR study, I mean, that's kind of the goal to make sure we're set up to do the projects we need to. >> Great. Thank you. >> Go ahead. >> Um, so in an earlier slide, I think it was the fixed rate structure suggestions, you had made a comment that these rates don't actually cover the cost the ent cost entirely. And so, you know, sort of dovetailing on what um Rebecca just was asking about, um I'm just wondering if then this is adequate. Um >> Council Member Mall, if I may, I just to be clear, um your the rates we're recommending adequately cover the entire utilities costs, right? Um but from a uh fixed rate perspective to some of your fixed identified infrastructure costs, right? >> Okay. >> But that that's my question. Yeah. No, I I understand that we're talking about infrastructure and so if we are planning but we're not planning and it's not it doesn't cover the entire cost. I mean I know that we bond. I know that we're talking about also debt and you know um hopefully grants and you know things like that but is that why because just of the we're planning on other revenue sources? >> I think we're getting very we get very close to that that number. So I I think you know with an adjustment with on the fixed fee having an increase in 26 and then with our minor increases and you know 3% increases beyond that I think we'll probably get to that point where it's covering both >> that year's capital outlay along with the debt service which was for prior projects that are future rate or current and future rate payers are paying for okay >> on that end of it. So I think it gets to that point. It covers a vast majority of or very very close to 100% of it but not quite there. But yeah, it's um covering a significant portion of that. So >> and so is the gap paid through the general fund then? >> No, the gap is paid by then the variable or the bometric rate on the variable pie. >> So if I may um madam mayor or act the mayor um the it's really a philosophy when it comes to how you fund a lot of things, right? Um so all of the utility costs are being funded by the utility. The the idea though um not necessarily all of your infrastructure costs need to be paid for by the fixed piece of your infrastructure fee because there is still a piece of how um the wear and tear maybe right is often um can be exacerbated by larger volume users. And so because of that, it it is appropriate that a piece of your infrastructure cost can still be paid through your variable rate. And that's just what um kind of we've while we've increased some uh of the cost share to the fixed rate as opposed from the variable rate, um there's still a share of it that uh is likely to be covered by some of your larger uh more intensive users that are placing higher demand on some of the those pieces. So >> that makes sense. >> Okay, question. Thank you. Um, and actually I agree with that. So I'm comment and question. I'm totally fine with seeing um having more on the volumetric and the usage fee funding that because I think what um our residents are seeing, what I'm hearing a lot is um you know the family of five next to me, their bill is only $30 more than mine. We both have the $80, you know, whatever fixed rate and then you so you can try to explain that to them. So I would be personally happy to see an even greater rebalancing to go to usage because as you said wear and tear for that family of five what they're doing to the system and through great much greater use um you know even if it's not even it's a if it's a second tier versus the you know senior living alone on a fixed income and you know having to pay almost as much as that family of five. That's where I think, you know, given the precision of what you're doing and the fact that we will be able to tweak it, that gives us perhaps an opportunity, I'm hoping that we could rebalance that to wait even more heavily on the volumetric um variable uh part of the fee because it can be adjusted. If one year, you know, we're a little bit short or whatever, then you can I'm assuming given the precision and the way you're working out this model, we could then have a little bit better insight on an annual basis to go forward to say, well, that didn't work. All of a sudden, you know, usage dropped too much or whatever. We need to make up, you know, next year either by raising base fixed rates or by raising I know that's more work. But I mean, especially for people who are seeing these, you know, who are struggling basically financially right now. Um, and and you know, kind of like I said, seeing what their neighbors doing. Hopefully, I would I guess I would my question is is is that fine-tuning on a a more frequent basis more possible within this model um system going forward? And then is it fiscally possible andor responsible, which is a question for staff for us to consider possibly as my feedback for going forward and finalizing this to consider um waiting more on the on the usage side. >> I thank you, Council U Member Ramling. >> Close enough. [laughter] Um, I I guess from my professional uh perspective, I wouldn't uh recommend that you go lower on your fixed fee. Right now, you're kind of at the lower end of what we do recommend already. >> Um, even with the increase that we are uh recommending here in the rate study, usually depending on the community, um, we like to have between 30 and 50% of total revenue um, coming in through the fixed fee. >> Okay. uh you're closer to about the 28%. >> Um but again I think because of part of that is balanced uh from a rate consultant recommendation perspective right with how you're how you have been charging rates and the history of how people are used to and so we don't like to do large changes at once. We like to try to do more small tweaks because that avoids what they call rate shock. Um we are in these recommendations have also kind of moved some of uh some of the conservation tiers are going up and so I would expect already that you are going to see probably a reduction in some of those tier um volumes and so I think at least at at some point um at a minimum I'd wait probably a year or two so you get a full year's worth two years because then you get a full year's worth of usage at the new rates right to be able to then kind of fine-tune and say all All right, we do need to adjust these. We're feel safe or comfortable adjusting them from uh maybe more along those lines depending on uh overall policy direction of the community. So, >> okay, that's that's fair. That's good information. >> Yeah. And I can kind of I just piggyback off that a little bit is that um I would be reluctant to move the fixed fees downward on that to adjust them down just because we have that base infrastructure fee. they have to provide a service to that home no matter how many residents are in that that home at that point in time. Obviously, they it's more of a burden if there's one elderly person there that's on on the fixed income on that end of it. Yeah, we absolutely see that uh that that burden on that end of it. But then on the other side of it, we also have the infrastructure that we need to provide that that service to to that resident and to that that household on on that end of it. And really what we're seeing with the the dropping in in usage amongst users as well too is that relying upon that variable rate fee um is more elastic on that end of it is that you know the higher we increase that rate you know we might see some usage drop on on that end of it. We're not guaranteed that that revenue stream to pay for that debt service to pay for that upcoming infrastructure needs on that end of it. So, um, I'm hoping that, you know, splitting out this this fixed fee, even though it's going to be, you know, if you add them together, they're going to be higher than the current infrastructure fee, but I'm hoping with the communication piece of that, maybe clarifying the bill a little bit on that, they can see where these dollars are going and help with understanding um, the need the city is experiencing with that. So, >> we have a somewhat related question to that having to do with the the Met Council. Um and Mayor Wearsome has talked about how like the the way it works with Met Council that you get to a point where we can um see decreased usage but not decreased fees because there's a fix some fixed cost. Um with this new way of bill of like tr separating that out on the bill would that make it more understandable, I guess, to to the to the to the users as to like what where that money is going and and what it's doing. >> Yeah. And I can probably I can probably answer that one, Council Member Wilburn. Um I'm hoping so. I mean, there again, if we we communicate not just in the bill, but if we communicate other other methods as well, too, and explain what what these costs are or these fees are going towards, what what it exactly is. Like I said, we, you know, experienced a number of calls on kind of explaining an infrastructure fee. So, breaking that out into two different set fees and and really explaining that Met Council piece of that. Um, you know, we explain that as well, too. And, um, you know, to me, I think it makes sense on the bill, but maybe to the person that doesn't look at a utility bill more than once a quarter, it doesn't make as much sense on the end of it. So, um, but I think I still like having that mech council break out that easily explains it says, "Hey, $4.75 of every one of your sewer bills here or usage or units is being passed through from us to that council on that end of it." So, um, and there's there's other bills there's other line items on the utility bill as well, too. So, I know council member Kilber talked about or even council memberly about talking to residents that have questions on their bills and things like that. We have the recycling charges are on there. There's state testing fees on there. There's, you know, if you're live in certain areas of the city, you might have street light fee on your bill as well, too. So, you look at all those, you see fee, fee, fee, fee. Well, they're all for different services. And so, maybe we got to do a better job of of communicating like, hey, it's just not the water and sewer, your water and sewer on the on that utility bill. There's four or five other things that are on there as well, too, that are being passed through. And they all they all kind of add up, you know, on that end of it. So, um, completely understandable. I Oh, I just have one more quick question. I know it's been discussed in the past about um maybe going to monthly building billing instead of quarterly. Is that something we're still considering? >> You know, we're going to put it in the community survey again this spring. I put it in the in the survey last year for the first time and I truly expected to have a a great response that said, "Hey, yes, we want to go to monthly billing just because the the quarterly bills are are big." Um I it would think it would be easier to budget and plan on a monthly basis versus a quarterly basis on that end of it. That community survey came back that 68% said they preferred the quarterly bill on that end of it. So almost two to one on that end of it. So I want to take one more year to kind of study that and see where we're at. Um but that might be something that we look at in the future as well too because you you break it out into it's the same dollar amount but I mean budgeting for it from a something that's um as more needs are on that end of it, it might be easier to do that on a monthly basis. So, and they still have the option today. I mean, they can pay, they get their quarterly bill, they can pay it >> a third of the time if they know about they can send in, you know, whatever amount that'll get applied to their their bill on that end of it, but um it's still not the same as getting a monthly bill. So, >> go ahead. I had a related question and I my ignorance is showing because I I think the bill must go to my husband's email, but did we get a new um have we rolled out our new billing software yet or is that still in the works? >> No, we have not rolled out our billing software yet. Um, we're going to be going through Lois and Lois just went live with uh, Waconia probably within the last two months and I believe Maple Grove is close to go going live. Um, they should be live here shortly and then there are there's one more group there's a group of a couple cities in front of us and then we are scheduled to be next on that end of it. So, they have pretty aspirational hopes of how many months it takes to do that implementation. And I'm not going to hold them to that because I've had some past experiences on that. But I would say within the next year to year and a half, we should be implemented. But, um, our invoice cloud, the billing software on the front end of it, I mean, customers do can receive e billills. Uh, we get 80% or more Joel probably on of our payments come through um the the payment portal. So we get fewer checks um fewer customers um coming to the window. So they're utilizing the the payment platform and the e billill piece of that. So that would make moving to a quarterly or a monthly bill a little bit more enticing if it doesn't cost us a lot more because we are still mailing their mailing costs and mailing costs are go are increasing. Printing costs are increasing. So we if we can reduce those as much as we can then making that shift to monthly billing may not add additional staffing or additional costs um potentially on that end of it. So those are the things that to think about too if we move to a monthly piece of we may need a additional staffing to a certain extent or something to that nature to handle the the calls that come in with with billing. I mean, the one thing I'm thinking, and just really quickly, and I don't have any more comments, but it would be nice if somehow we could marry the change in the billing with the communication about some of the changes >> on how we're billing because I think it'll get more people's attention, but it doesn't sound like that's realistic. Um, and I don't even I just mean when you when something comes new like my iPad just updated and now it looks different, it catches my attention and and a different looking bill might also do that. >> Yeah. And I think that just to add on a little bit, I think with the water meter replacement program as well too is that we're rolling out um a system there where you can monitor your water usage individually as well too. So you can kind of see real time. I mean, that's the other issue we have with quarterly billing is that somebody gets their bill in September, October and they use all their water in the summertime and now they don't have the opportunity to adjust their their water usage either because it's the watering season's done at that point in time. So, we run into that every year. You're like, well, you got to remember next year. Well, you person doesn't remember, unfortunately. So hopefully with the the water meter technology it as long as they use it um it'll it'll be out there at some point in time for them to be able to real time see that like how much water did my sprinkler system use last night on that end of it and can I was I aware of that or you know and see leakage you know water leaks sooner and things like that. So so there's opportunity out there. Um, in the billing side of it, I'm kind of hoping that it's a little bit seamless as well, too, that maybe the customers don't see a whole lot and it's more so on the on our side on the back end of it. But, >> okay, >> a little bit of both there. >> All right. Any other comments before we answer the questions? Um, I just think I I will say that um just based on my conversations especially just coincidentally this week where people were commenting on their uh water and sewer utility bill um I think the simplification makes a lot of sense. I I think anything we can do with an insert or you know the explanations of the breakdown of where people's money are is going um is so helpful because some people understand some people don't really want to understand. They just want their bill to go down and other people um are open to understanding if they get the information. I I feel like these changes make a lot of sense and will be I think it'll make the bills easier for people to understand what the money's going for. But anything anything we can do to explain it to them [laughter] is a good thing. That's what I think. >> I agree. I also think that the you know the the um much like the property taxes you know you there's a number at the bottom and it doesn't matter if it's a it's state fee a met council mandate whatever it's the it's the number at the bottom >> um we have a responsibility to explain that because it does it is enlightening so >> and whether it's I think we and we've done a much better job but I think videos and emails I mean it has to be a variety of ways that people receive information because we all kind of receive it differently. >> Okay. So, do we I'm getting that the council >> council on the I think yeah obviously it makes total sense um and to make the changes. I I do wish there was some way we could weight it more heavily towards usage, but I understand why. So, thank you for that explanation. Um, and yeah, communicating through a variety of of platforms and and methods, uh, you know, video clicking a link to say, "Oh, this is what this is for, your council pastor." Um, so on so forth. Um, that's good. And I would definitely be in favor of um potential uh bonds for future storm water um infrastructure projects and and you know of course for the current things because trying to spread that out um for future users these projects these big projects that are as Paty said going to be used by future users instead of doing a pay go um kind of the pay use model think makes a lot of sense. So starting to think about those things would be something that I would be in favor of. >> Okay. >> Yeah, I would just kind of agree with everybody. >> Same. >> Yeah, I really don't have anything much to add, but I mean, of course, I support it because it goes with everything else. The first discussion that we just had that, you know, we don't change rates and prices and how do we support structure and all the other things that we have to do. So I mean you have no choice but to do this. So I mean we already talked about just communication piece but I mean there's no way of getting around it. I wish it was, but as a person who had a pipe break in the house and had to go two times like twice to get it fixed, um I know what that's like and I know that experience and so I don't want our city to have to deal with that on a large scale. >> So it's not cheap at all. >> Yeah, I'll second that. Um, we had Metro Waste, the backup, the big backup that happened um about gosh now over 20 25 years ago. >> We had um sanitary sewage in the bottom of our house >> um about halfway up our lower level walls and it was a huge mess. So I I am grateful for you know the increased uh investment that the city has done since then um to prevent future so that things like that because that was a horrible horrible experience to happen have happened and have to clean up. >> So staff have we adequately answered the discussion questions. >> Yeah absolutely you did a great job. Thank you so much and I'd like to thank Ryan and and um David for and the rest of you guys' staff for your help on this this study. you guys been great great to work with and appreciate all the the insight and information we'll have moving forward. So, thank you very much. And >> so, just a little bit just one quick last comments to the council on that end of it. Just so we'll be bringing this back in November um with some rates expectations at that point in time. Um since they are potential rate changes structure t changes taking place, we are working with our vendors. or a print bill vendor and loss to implement potential changes. And so depending on how fast they can turn those around, we may have a delay in this. It may not be a a January 1 or we build the end of the month. So be end of January was when the new bills would go into um into place, but um if there is a delay, we'll be make sure to communicate that on that end of it and such like that. So um if we do that, it might be a quarter delay just to make sure we stay in the same billing cycle as we as we are and such like that. But I'll communicate that with the council as we move forward and such like that. So, >> okay. Um, I'm going to recommend a five minute break. Um, because that was a lot. [laughter] >> I need to just clear my head a little bit. So, >> change gears. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> No, I'm on time always. >> I know. >> I'm aware sometimes when you're presentation. >> He went a little long. Yeah. >> All right, everybody. >> We're We're back together. >> So, we will um have Julie. >> Thank you. >> Take it away. >> I will as soon as we're ready. >> All right. Listen up, everybody. [laughter] >> That's all right. We have another great presentation. This one [snorts] hopefully is a little bit more with filled with pictures. Not maybe [laughter] so many tables. No offense. Just this still here. >> So, we'll go back and forth a little bit. Um part of this I have and then Matt has a bunch of slides he wants to show you too about the public space. So, we'll kind of go back and forth as we go through this PowerPoint. and then we're just really looking for you to provide us some feedback because there's a lot of things going on and I think sometimes we just don't sit down and explain all of the things that we're working on and what's happening within the area. So that's our um point. You know, uh Susan, you pulled this for me. Thank you. The 1970s opus vision. We always pull that out when we're thinking about the new things that we're working on because if you think about how they had it envisioned back in the day when uh the original owner of Opus planned for this area, there's another picture too that has an automated car, >> right? So in 1970, you think about that and how forward thinking was that? We're there. I mean, we're we're to that point. So, um it's always kind of fun to reflect as we look toward the future. And there was um a lot of visioning that happened with the public open space and Matt will talk about that um that happened about five six years ago. Is that right? Six years ago. And so he'll talk about that later. Just to give you opus by the numbers in terms of residential development. I think again you can use the housing dashboard to get these same numbers. you can do um you know whatever area you want to look at in the opus area. If you remember, it started with the rise and that was the first building um that replaced the building with um a printing company that had gone kind of bankrupt and they needed to sell their property and the bank sold it to the rise and that's how that came to light and that was actually a a company out of Florida who built that building and uh so that was the first project. Elcott was built that had 356 units there. We were able to, you know, strat uh stratify the the affordability in that project and you can see that was done for pretty low-key amount of money. Um you remember the financials on that were pretty strong and so they didn't need a lot to support the affordability. Then Bren Road Station and the preserve happened. That that was I think I still think it's the biggest affordable housing development in the metro area in the last 10 years. I think that's still the case. Um and that's at 60% area median income. And they you can see the occupancy numbers are still very strong. Uh Marlo is under construction right now. That's the building you see right at the corner kind of a red circle and Bren and that's 269 units. Minnitanka station that had we went through that on our tour. Remember that that has a mural on the front 2 um75 there. Townline little bit slower on occupancy there. We think that has a lot to do with the size of the units. They're pretty compressed. um they were trying to be a little bit below market in terms of their price range but had to skinny up the units and that we do think that has a lot to do uh with the occupancy and all that product came on at about the same time Wellington was building uh that project. So in total almost 2,000 units of that almost 700 were affordable. Um lots of construction probably the majority of the city's new housing construction was in that area besides Richell that is. Um there was a tiff district established and there still is. It's still operating. We try to tell you about how it um is functioning in the tip management management report you have every other year. That's always reported to you in October of the respective year. So you won't have one this year. You didn't have one this year. You will have one next year. But just to let you know, there were 19 buildings on 23 properties. It was a pretty short-term tiff district. was only 16 years and it was expected to generate almost 200 million in tax increment and these were the uses of the funds. So affordable housing that we've approved so far used up 14 million. Road projects are plan to have 25 million and that administration and future housing uh we're we're thinking that might be about 16 million. So, there are plans um you know in the works that that might need that money. Uh and so we'll talk about some of those in a little bit. There also are commercial vacancies. That's something we've been monitoring for a while. We talked to you about the commercial market analysis we had done earlier this year. You can see what they were predicting in that. Um we actually were sitting lower in terms of total vacancy for commercial space. So that's positive, but we're watching a few of the big buildings out there. So these are the three we're watching. United Health Group, obviously they vacated that 9900 building some time ago that's currently on the market. Boston Scientific, this gets the most um energy from the development community. There's lots of people looking at this site. It's 17 acres. It's a huge parcel kitty corner from light rail. um very marketable piece of property right along the rail line itself. So I think that'll probably move before the 9900 building, but lots of strong interest in these um sites. Opus headquarters, too. There's a fair amount of interest. The one part of it is vacant right now, but Opus is still there until their new headquarters is um constructed in Edina. But that building had new um a new addition probably back 15 years ago somewhere in there. So it's still pretty valid office space. They do have potential users looking at refilling the building. So um not a lot of concern on these the left two, but the one on the right does we've been in that building. We went on a tour of it. We know what it looks like. Um it's well taken care of. I'm sure we'll find occupant, but it might take time. Um what we do as a staff is we um have one pagers for each of these buildings so that they understand the city's comprehensive plan. Um what kind of zoning is out there uh for each building. What else Susan do we have on the on the one pager? >> Um just important links to all sorts of information. in the city's um housing policy, um environmental ordinances, things that any future developer might need >> just to be yeah, really convenient for them and so that it's easy when a when a broker is showing these buildings. So, I would say uh these are three to watch, but uh again, very big interest on the left two on the page. Um and so now we're going to move into some of the public improvements. We're going to talk about wayfinding, trail lighting, and public space. And Matt, I'm going to flip it over to you for a while and >> take a back seat for a minute. >> Wishnack council. Thank you so much. Um, Opus is really a unique place in terms of its planning. Uh, folded in a lot of what I'd call quality of life features. So, the trail network being a very important aspect of the development down there. You know, with nearly 2,000 new units, it's really important that that multimodal trail system is welcoming. It's functional. We know that the road system and the trail system down there is a bit circuitous and you can lose direction fairly quick. That makes for a wonderful experience jogging or biking or walking. Uh but you can certainly lose your way. Um so back in 2019 the opus placemaking and urban design um implementation guide uh through my predecessor Carol and staff here um this was about those elements such as wayfinding landscaping um the general sort of vibe of the place what lighting could do in terms of safety out there to make it more welcoming knowing that a bunch of development was going to be coming down the road and and that's taking place now. At this point we obviously knew the light rail was coming. it was far off in the future, but we wanted to do our best to try sort of make that trail system as welcoming and and accommodating as possible. Um, so there was a defined trail network in this document that set out some standards in terms of materials and how we light it and how we do branding. Um, are you on the green trail or the red trail? And you'll see some of that in the documentation here. Um, but now we're starting to roll out those placemaking elements. Uh, the first big one that's getting ready to roll out is wayfinding. So, it's essentially a signage suite. So, what types of signs need to go where to sort of help you um figure out where you are and where how do you get to where you're trying to go in Opus, whether you're a resident or somebody coming off the light rail or trying to get to a nearby park or connect to a neighboring city. Um so, this is a sign hierarchy. Um these will be different types of signs placed at different in intersections. We were fortunate enough to be working with a um signage consultant. Um they're really uh modern in terms of their material selection. They do things like airport signage where it's really tough to figure out how to get [laughter] around. Um so we're leveraging their experience to make the signage clear and concise but attractive and modern and it doesn't look outdated right away. So they're selecting materials based on combinational longevity. So things that we know will hold up on site, we salt, we have winters and stuff. Um and then this sort of consistent aesthetics of the sign that they sort of um have a unique characteristic about them that help you know that you're in opus and there's a a sense of place about it. We've developed this branding to sort of go along with it. The the the Olympic ring style has been sort of resonant through the opus area. So, we wanted to create some consistency around the branding, and you'll see that showing up on the signs. Um, we're at the point now where we're selecting where these signs go, which type of sign would go in different locations. Um, the idea at this point is to begin fabricating these after a bid process over the winter, fabricating over the winter and the spring, and begin installing these signs next summer. Uh, trail lighting. We know we have long winters, unfortunately, here in Minnesota. So, a lot of these trails go through um underpasses under the roads. There's a lot of tree cover out there. So, to make sure that these trails are usable and feel safe throughout the year, um we are looking at trail lighting. So, we're working with a engineer consultant to do a technical feasibility report that helps us figure out um things like phototric um evaluation. So, how what spacing of lights would be needed to sort of accomplish that where there's not a great deal of distance in the darkness, but we're not clogging the site up with a lot of light pollution and we're not flooding the zone with too much light that's unnecessary to feel safe on that trail system. So, we're going through a process again like the signage to sort of understand how many lights would need to go out um into the trail system. Um we're associating that with this colored loop loop trail um sort of branding that's out there. Um we want to coordinate the the light rail infrastructure and the lighting that's out there so we're not again doubling up on the light features making sure we're efficient with that. It's expensive after all. Um we are looking to we're designing currently. So actually there's engineering um surveyors out in the field looking at this site as we speak. Well, probably not as I speak, but these days [laughter] uh before the snow really starts to fly. Um but the goal here would be um bidding over the winter again to begin to roll this out and install these lights in a phased approach starting as early as next year. So, we're targeting next summer, realistically in the fall. And the Opus Public Space. So, um, 2023 we got a grant, um, from the Department of Employment and Economic Development, also known as DED. So, with this appropriation, we got $725,000 or we will be getting $725,000 for land acquisition, pre-esign, and design of a public space. That public space, as spelled out in our grant application, but also in the placemaking document, is uh what we're calling a linear plaza, and it's got a variety of park amenities. um you know playground type features, an amphitheater, so sort of a an alakart menu of appropriate landscape features for a urban plaza uh type setting like this. And reminder back in last year, September 23rd, the council approved the resol resolution authorizing the execution of that appropriation. Um, and the the the site identified in the Opus placemaking document was this Minneapolis Mart site. So, that's just east of the station. Um, for those that don't know, because I certainly didn't. Minneapolis Mart is a wholesale merchandiser. They have a showroom facility there, but it's not open to the public. So, the parking lot generally sits empty. It looks like they create like sample displays essentially and then commercial vendors go in to see their product like in a sample display situation. >> And I always get the question, well, is it really occupied? Yes, there are people in there and there are actual vendors in there and there are 220 spaces. >> Yeah. And they have a website that's modernized >> and it's four times a year is when the sales happen. So if you don't notice it on those four days or those four weekends I should say you wouldn't notice um the activity level. >> Yep. It's fairly nondescript overall. >> Um so we have been so overall the the this particular lot's almost 20 acres. Um there has been a recent property transfer to a local developer and this local developer is known to the council via what? >> Hillrest. The Hillrest site. >> Hillrest from what? >> Hillrest. Oh, >> so yep. All right. So these >> corre Well, it's sorry >> investment behind Greco. Yeah. >> Um so yeah, we've had recent conversations with them. Um they do know that work is continuing on the park planning. Um, as Matt and I have talked and kind of gone back and forth, it's like planning the park, not knowing what the development is, development should happen, no park planning, you know, it's one of these trying to figure out the right um formula. It's kind of like what happened in Ridgdale when we had the park planning going on there. We had a vision, then we had to get more serious about how to design it and it was all kind of depending on development. So, there is a back and forth that needs to happen with the developer. um and align with what their expectations are as well. So, it's going [snorts] to be a lot of coordination, but um that's what Matt and I will figure out. >> It's a exciting opportunity. It really is a key public space for us in the city here. >> So, we do have a sense of what the original land owner was sort of thinking. Some of these renderings were sent along to us for earlier discussions. So, sort of a linear type plaza east off the light rail station. So you can see on that left um illustration there, there's the train and some sort of linear park-like space moving east to west. Um these are early concepts. So these are just sort of um seeds in our mind as we begin this overall park planning and and uh design process. >> Can I have a quick I'm sorry. Is that development that the new owner has are they is that going to be a commercial or a residential? These were just old drawings from very I mean >> Susan, how many times have we met with developers on this property? >> Going to be up to about 89. >> No, I'm not kidding. >> They don't know what that will do yet. >> Okay. So, they don't know if it's going to be commercial. >> Yeah. And so they float these ideas and concepts and then we tend to save them just because some of them have, >> you know, some merit because this the one on the right side um has a road that passes through which is one of the things that the city has thought about as we think about light rail and drop off and circulation. We've got to get some kind of spine of a road through the site and then build the park off of that. The almost like a parkway is kind of how we were envisioning it. So some of these concept have merit but the developer didn't proceed or you know and and so we just keep them for inspiration. [laughter] >> Cool. Nothing on >> the docket. Well, I mean the picture on the left did show. >> Yep. >> On on this side of >> a >> little bit different scenario on that one. Yeah. That was more of a a high-rise. Um you know, we're not talking a fivetory building here. We're talking 10 plus. And that was uh before the office market crashed. And so, you know, again, we hold [clears throat] on to these things just to yeah, that was a big idea at the time. And so, um, you know, height is not a big deal in Opus in terms of you got the Marriott, you've got United Health Group, you got lots of height. Um, so doing a large building like what you see on the left side is not um it wouldn't be out of character, I guess, for the the area. Sorry, Matt. Ruined your vibe. I need this I need this help describing the process. So, >> from a park planner perspective, which is me, we sort of know what we want in terms of what's good for the city. So, we know that the the elements described in the the Opus public space document, um that they can, you know, leverage a lot of these big ideas. So, you know, a very flexible open space, um, sort of features like a great lawn, um, an amphitheater with public use down there. You know, with nearly 2,000 new residents or units in this area, we're going to have a lot of action around this light rail. So, we want to really activate that space with things that we know the community would use. Um, and we really are going to have a blank slate um, with new development occurring around there. So, we're going to begin this outreach process to um the community via our consultant. We're going to hire a consultant here coming up soon over the winter and sort of begin to wrap our hands around what this public space could look like and use that to have further conversations with the developer. So, we have a general sense of what we're looking for from a community via this OPIS placemaking document. Um, but it's really about this visioning and then working with the developer to sort of get their idea locked in around our ideas. So, we're trying to take the wheel a little bit, I would say. So, the plan is to um go out for RFPs to local park planning consultants this winter. Um, have an agreement in place and kick off that process. So, that means outreach and engagement um first half of next year with the local community there. I would imagine a lot of the new residents and they've been sort of waiting for the light rail to start rolling through. Um this would be something nice that they can look forward to in the future, a potential city park place and we can um solicit feedback from them and and get a sense of what they're looking for, what they'd be interested in in a public space um with a draft public master plan available for comment and coming back to you folks um later next year, September or so. And then a final public space master plan uh late next year. So overall wayfinding is [laughter] bidding [cough] and install [clears throat] next year. Bidding this winter and spring install next year. The same for the lighting. So there's a lot of electrical design that needs to go into that. So realistic install summer fall 2026 for the first phase. Um we do have additional work happening. So, we have a pedestrian crossing uh occurring from the west side of the light rail station over towards um Bren Road >> station. >> Station. Yes, that's right. >> Um so, there is continued infrastructure. The city is working on some uh additional um turn lane improvements onto Shady Oak um by that um what's that development called? Shady Oak and uh right around the corner there. Oh, Elcott. >> Elcott. Yes. [laughter] >> I'm like, >> so we continue to make improvements on the traffic flow out there. Um, and then this public space design, which would be a fairly large one coming back to you folks uh next fall. >> And then Matt, just one more thing on Oh, actually, we have a slide on it. Never mind. Keep going. So, I might need help on this one, but um the plan is to um not only rearrange the intersection at Shady Oak and Red Circle Drive, which I mentioned by Alcott, but reverse the lane uh the way Green Oak flows. So, making that a two-way, correct? >> Cor one way north. >> One way going north. It currently goes south. >> Correct. And the logic is to create that circuit around the new station so drop offs can happen a little bit easier. And apparently this is confusing for local folks. And the oneway system out there is quite confusing. >> Well, you'd have to go you'd have to go way east toward United Health Group to get back to the station which is a problem. So this was identified a long time ago as something we should do to prepare for light rail. >> Yep. So next year implement this uh reversal of Green Oak Lane. Um we are also improving sidewalks on the east side of Shady Oak by that commercial district there. So those sidewalks are in very rough shape. So they're going to be getting repaired in this coming year. And then re resurfacing of all of Opus is coming with our mill and overlay program and that's going to be rolling out over the next few years I believe. Um 27 is that the big >> done next year? >> Done next year. So in anticipation for light rail. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Turning it back over. >> Yeah. So, our alternative urban areawide review, some of you were here when we did the first iteration of this, this is the if you can't remember the the cumulative impact of development has on environmental issues. So, um we took the approach where we wanted to do the entire opus area. It's not totally common. Um, we did this because it felt very disjointed to have developments piece by piece do environmental review on their own. It didn't didn't seem very comprehensive. So that's why we did it in 2021. And as staff we were looking back is that five years already five years ago like this. And the magic about five years is at fiveyear mark you have to update the AU or renew the AU. And so we were just meeting the other day to talk about the next steps to update the AUR and get it scheduled for an update in 2026. So that will be happening behind the scenes. The things that we think about in that are the improvements um that we identified in 21 still accurate. Um has the traffic changed enough that is causing different kinds of improvements to be done or the improvements have to shift or change or be amended? So there's a lot to kind of think through on an update, but um it's something that timing wise we need to do. But [clears throat] then secondly um would be helpful as they as uh engineering and public works um try to figure out the capital improvements um plan over the next five years. So all right uh I think we'll end uh oh we have a southwest. Hang on. Go back one. Sorry if you hadn't noticed they're testing vehicles. And so, but that process is going to take a long time. So, we won't actually see that operational till 27. So, all of the things we talked about and the timing is so critical just so that we can like have the ped crossing at at Bren um ready for the light rail station so people aren't hopping across the road trying to get to the station without any control uh on that roadway. um getting all the roads to be redone and resurfaced. Um just the lighting, the wayfinding, I mean that'll be incredible. And you can see little pieces of it starting to happen. I mean, when you redid all the bridges, um we made sure it followed the wayfinding plan, all of that happened as we went along. So, but it kind of culminates over the next couple of years. And so a lot of work happening and then hopefully we'll get to a point where we have a cohesive neighborhood of about 5,000 people if you add it all up. Um what was there and what is there um and you know 10,000 employees is kind of my estimate. It used to be more like 16 but obviously with the compression of office space and people going to work in a physical building has changed a lot. So more residents a little bit less employment, but still >> sounds like kind of a wash of the number of people. Yeah, that's very interesting. >> The nice thing about residential is there's not this peak hour traffic issue. Um, and Phil and Will and I have talked about PM peak hour trip generation for years in the Opus area. It's a very stimulating conversation. >> [laughter] >> never heard us talk about it, but it uh the fact that we had so much employment there and it was just causing a breakdown at Bren Road and um 169 and we had to rebuild the bridge. I mean, that was kind of a big deal in 2008 when we did that. But now that's shifted. We don't have such a pressure on PMP Peak. It's more just trips from the residential areas. So, that's changed um to the better. So, I'll turn it back to you, acting mayor, and we'll >> have a little discussion. >> Council, are there any other questions and um any additional direction regarding Opus area? >> I have a question just about changing I mean, I don't even know how much people that live there really are comfortable and familiar with the streets that they drive on every day because it's kind of the Bermuda Triangle. But if you're going to change the direction of a street that has gone the other direction. >> Yes. >> That is scary. >> I mean, >> well, you've done it before. [laughter] >> And how did it go? I mean, I'm just wondering what do we do specially to keep people safe and from, you know, going the wrong way. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I can talk about it a little bit and Mr. If Mr. Olsson wants to jump in, you know, we we sign [laughter] it. We sign it a lot. I mean, before we do anything like that, there's going to be signs out there in boards and, you know, the police will assist us, but it it takes a little bit of time. There's people driving the wrong way there often. Now, [laughter] it's not it's not anything new, I don't think. I mean, we we get calls all the time of people going the wrong way, so I don't know if Phil wants to add. >> Yeah, I would. I very true. I think part of this will be the direction of um changing the direction of some of those connection pieces between the roads. So um as you're on the road, it will flow normally. Um there are still people that intentionally I think drive the wrong way, but um part of it will be changing um the connections between where the roads access. So, when it's under construction, opening up, I'm sure there'll be an education period, too, that we're going to have to work through, >> which happened. I mean, it did happen on Red Circle. You had to do all these things to prepare that to flip-flop from where the way it is now to um what it was. So, >> yeah, I was I was going to say, hasn't there been some changes? Because I worked over there for a little while, and I promise you, I still struggle trying to figure out how to how to get up out of that area. It was really difficult. And so driving around. >> Um my question is like is there I guess comments of kind of helping people with the direction on how to get up out of there because I had a hard time just coming up out of that area trying to get on to Brent R you know like and I worked there for a little bit probably about four months and I was just like this is crazy. I like circle around a couple times, [laughter] drive into a little parking lot where I could turn around and come back the other way. I mean, it was it was really confusing. Like, it was. So, I don't know. It just seemed like it it I don't know. It felt like needed more direction on how to get up out of there. Like, >> I don't know, signage or something. >> Phil's probably got more, but I we've looked at it several times. I get lost in there still myself sometimes and it's not uncommon, but >> we've looked at signage. We've looked at all kinds of stuff. We'll still do that now that the light rails, you know, here. We'll probably look at it again certainly. But >> yeah, I I think it's a good point though of are there some places in there that could be signage to Shady Oak 169. We can take a look at that of are there strategic >> There's a few in there now, but yeah, after we're done >> Yeah. turning around the roadways and maybe adding some more directional signage. I think that's not a a bad thought. >> I was, you know, I don't know if in this area it would be appropriate, but I was, you know, how you know how you have streets that are curves and you have like these um kind of I mean, we probably don't want this, but like they have like these metal brackets and then it has the arrow going this way, you know, like and it tells you which way go this way. You know, you're following that around. I mean something like that cuz it is conf. I'm not going to even lie. I was like, "Oh my god, this is confusing." >> You're stuck. You're stuck in >> I would turn around on a circle or something. Sometimes >> I think we do have to wait a little bit for light rail traffic to kind of deal with the new addition of that and trying to figure out how people are moving through the site. We might have to have a focus group there and we'll watch you guys drive and then we'll say we need a sign there, [laughter] right? You'll watch us drive around going around in circle. >> I always keep my eye in the sky. I always know where I am. You you got to go by United Health Group or Marriott and then you know where you are. >> Yeah. I just need things in the sky. But that's those are all good points because it's not just about way funding for pedestrians, but way funding for cars. >> Okay. >> So, um I I my relationship with Opus area is very long. um having worked there in the '9s. >> And then lived in that same building in [laughter] the early 2000s. Um but and so I agree that wayfinding is is challenging. But what um I think it's important for maybe people listening to this and even council members that weren't here even preceding me, but particularly in 2018 and 2019, we collectively spent a lot of time on kind of what we're envisioning or what we're seeing come to fruition now. and particularly in the open space and we had um multi- we had boards and commissions and we had the council and we spent a lot of time getting us to this point and so it feels you know I was reading this and I thought well if you don't have the history it might feel like oh now we're just going to plunk a park in there but this has been a very deliberate process and so I think it's important to tell that story somewhat as we move this forward because um and the other thing that's important to me is that um we also relate it to every single one of those units of housing contributed a park dedication fee and people are living there. these residents are living there and so we have a responsibility I think to make sure that we see through the vision but I think it would be very helpful to have a put a number on how much park dedication fees have been paid in the office area not now but maybe down the line so that we can understand that that that we're investing that money back into >> the area. Um, so those are just my comments. I think it's exciting. I I spent a lot of time on those trails and like Kizzy in her car driving around in circles, you know, [laughter] it's a little more um panic inducing when you're on a trail and it's starting to get to dark [laughter] and you're not quite sure how to get back home. So, I'm really glad to hear that the wayfinding is coming for the for the trails. I had to go look up the address where I was working at and it was at 1060 50 Red Circle Drive >> in one of those buildings and I just remember coming out of that parking lot getting totally confused on how to come up out of there and then I think at some point it >> was going the wrong direction. >> You wouldn't know where how to get there today. >> Is it that was like in the summertime um last year. >> Yeah. And so and I was there for about four months and I was just like, "Oh my god." >> And so, um, >> yeah. So my comment or my direction I guess is as u a member of the places committee when we're talking about our our public space to uh remember our public art and uh and the the whole pl that's a whole other conversation what's going on with the places committee and stuff but um yeah making sure that in our public space we have public art that ties into the light rail >> and all all of the subjects that we've been talking about tonight seem to sort of flow into the next one because there is some talk about public art regarding so I >> I totally agree with you. Yeah, >> I do have a couple questions and then uh I guess so we have this and this work is going forward. Um but I'm assuming we have we have the planning grant and the land acquisition grant from deed. So the next step is to actually after the planning happens is how how it's going to be funded and um so I'm assuming that's I mean obviously we've tried for bonding or a state bond but not and that didn't apply. >> So I guess a question and a comment that's going to be on our plate and we can certainly look at um some of the park improvement fees on that. Is there any thought of doing like a special improvement district or anything like that or are we still kind of scrambling or um you know kind of thinking ahead of what we can do to fund this in the future? >> Yeah, I mean definitely funding for the entire well we need to know a number first and then we can get to talking about future funding of the park. Um there definitely is going to be a a gap and so we have to figure out how to how to finance that. We've talked about a couple of different things. You know, we could go back and ask for more bonding. You could ask for sales tax. You could um there are park funds that were set aside that sit in a fund ready to be used, not the total amount. Um what was the other thing we talked about, Darren? Was >> that it? Do I have all of them? >> I can't think of. >> Okay, those are about the only ones. >> I checked the pond out the way. >> Yeah. And [laughter] that's it. I have um but you can't do a special service district there. That won't work with residential property. So that that is a that works for business does not work for residential. So that the way the laws work on how to assess that fee. So, um, definitely it's going to be putting a lot of pieces together. There could be, and in my mind, we we haven't really talked about this much, but grants under livable communities um that might roll into this because of the infrastructure relating to light rail. Um, so that could happen um as well. So, I think there's a few things we got to keep our eye on as far as future funding. >> And then one followup. Thanks. That's helpful. I've been wrapping my ar trying to wrap my arms about you know what what's that then thinking down the road um and then what is the thought in terms of you know what's already been done or are there plans to do things to incorporate um more retail like mixed use there like right now there's grocery store yet um >> oh I would love a grocery store >> I would love a grocery store >> I would too is there like anything we as a city or is that going to be kind of a private developer sort of thing like can we encourage coffee shops or you know retail or other things either in this park on a >> on a you know floor level on the street level >> um you know just as we go forward I mean we you know the buildings are there now for the residential but um if there's additional construction you know either to do with this new parcel >> that's coming on or other things so that there's retail also along this Plaza. Um, >> yeah, I get mixed reviews on that from when I talk to developers about it. Um, mixed reviews because one, it's not very visible um, from anywhere in terms of the the auto traffic and until developers kind of can rely on light rail traffic for retail, um, they won't invest in that. So, I think it it might be yet to come. Um, when I talk to grocery, they absolutely will not go internal to Opus. Um, every ger in the area. So, you have to think about those parcels that kind of sit on the edge. You have to think about [cough and clears throat] um kind of that southwestern portion of Opus might be candidate for a ger of some sort, but they've got to have some auto visibility and some walkability to the the uses in there. But uh absolutely no ger will go inside the circle so to speak. Um they would just won't locate um because they do have to rely on auto and uh walk up traffic. So >> and I would just add that if I can that um we have those conversations about retail with every >> developer that comes in that all all of these apartments that you've seen. We've had that specific conversation. what retail components can you add to this? And those are the responses that we get. So, it's it's not just a a general question that we put out to grocerers. We're asking the developers also, >> right? >> Yeah. I think it I mean, there's enough rooftops there, but it's not quite enough without auto traffic, too. So, if you think about you have 5,000 people living in this area, that's just not quite enough to alone support the kinds of retail you're talking about. So, how do they make that work? They have auto traffic as well. So, >> so maybe that's where some of the popups and things that you were thinking of as a way to >> more temporary for sure. Yeah. >> Okay. And then the other thing that I was thinking of um was daycarees like that. >> Is there any You know, this is getting away from public spaces a little bit, but great place for daycare. >> Well, we have there is Yellow Brook in the um just south of this area. >> Okay. >> Um which is pretty successful. There's also a lot of schools in the area. >> But I would say that's the only daycare I can think of. Susan, can you think? >> That is the only daycare that's actually gone in. We have had several applications for daycarees to come into opus. Um, sorry, >> not having um we've had several applications for various daycarees to come into opus. They have ultimately withdrawn their applications because of um now we're getting into the trip generation stuff, but um all sorts of uh trip generation reviews and fees that are associated with increased >> um trips >> in order to and Julie can explain this way better than I can. >> Trips to the interchange. chips uh that are increased through the Bren Road Minnitonka B or Bren Road 169 interchange and um that's all written into ordinance. It becomes almost cost prohibitive. Well, not almost it has been cost prohibitive >> for these daycarees to >> to relocate there. So, I know we talked about Yeah, >> we're something that planning and engineering are talking about is reooking at that portion of our ordinance and what's what's still needed, what's not needed anymore. Um, how can things be reworked? >> Set the table a little bit more. Yeah, >> that'd be great to try to, you know, encourage more mixed use in that area. So, that would be lovely. Thank you. Those are my questions and it looks great. >> I just one more comment. What about like a uh I know you know grocery store but what like a about a small like market or something like that. >> Um because I mean it's like a small market grocery store type deal just small on a smaller scale. >> Maybe that might be attractive in that space. >> I don't get much traction on that. I don't hear from uh those types of providers. It might change though like I said with the coffee or other kinds of retail that might change once the station's open. Um because then you got enough foot traffic, people can see the foot traffic and then see how much of a player it is and is it enough to support the retail. I think those those decisions are made um very calculated decision making about where they locate. >> Okay. Anything else before we move on to Shadio Station? >> Okay. Awesome. Thank you. >> Uh let's see. Wrong computer. One second here. >> We were doing so well. >> So it'll go a little bit faster. >> Was it something we've written on already? >> Totally. It's like on here weird. >> All right. Um there's really no feedback or voting that you would have in the future. I would say uh when we have these plans typically what happens is when you do an update to your comprehensive plan then we make a reference in the comprehensive plan to a special study. This would be the case in in this um shady oak station area. So this is um if in case you have geography problems with the city boundary which you probably should in this area. This is Excelsure uh Boulevard and then Shady Oak Road and here is the trail alignment. Uh here's the rail alignment and then this red line here is the city boundary. And so this whole green space and I think it was LA did we go there last year, Susan? >> Yes. >> Was it last year's tour? So we walked down this whole area. We looked at the station area. the station platform [clears throat] itself is sitting in Hopkins, but parts of the western part of the area is um Minnetonka. So this whole area here um and then south on KTL all the way down to the railroad. So that's all Minnetonka and then the rest of the study area is in Hopkins. 217 total acres. This area right here I always call the most active is about 36 acres. Um these pictures are off the drone photos from the from the um metro transit office. So they were kind of showing us what everything looked like on the drone. Again the city boundary sits about right here. And then this is Minnetonka here on the left side of the screen. um and and uh Hopkins over here. So, you can kind of see uh how they've laid out the parking and then these spaces here are potentially coming to um the public in terms of the the Met Council is getting rid of those parcels, right? So, they don't need them anymore for the light rail. They will go ahead and uh provide them to um a a willing buyer. So, what happened is Hopkins thought we need to probably update our plan just to make sure it's accurate about what the city is looking for. Um, they asked if we'd participate, although a lot of the focus had um a lot to do with the updating because of the um station area platform and that area. So, this was the TW 2015 plan. We're reflecting a lot back 10 years ago. We were just as busy back [laughter] then. Um there was definitely transit oriented but it was kind of more of an employment center focus which obviously has fallen out of favor in these last 10 years. So that didn't make a whole lot of sense. There was definitely residential planned near the station and this viewshed was kind of looking south uh easterly toward the light rail station. So this would be the corner of Shady Oak and Excel. So this is the newer version. Uh this is the cover of the 2025 Shady Oak station area strategy. It's more mixed use focused. It has a lot of wording talking about transit oriented and then also u more updated talking about today's land use and the needs of of what we think is more appropriate. You'll see a lot of activation pictures. There's a lot of visioning. kind of reminds me a little bit of opus where you have a little bit more inspirational stuff in the plan than what we had in the old plan. And this is purposeful because there is going to be a time we talked to the um consultant about this where there's going to be a lot of open space there for a long time until development happens. And so what do you do to help kind of engage with people and make um make people aware of what is happening um and that it's a real um place where people can be and hang out and bike to um off the trail. Um so they had some public art inspiration kind of like Kimberly like you were talking about in the opus similar ideas up here where you make it part of the environment and not necessarily a piece of art. I think when people see the words public art, they think, "Oh, a piece of art." That's not exactly what we're talking about. It's like art within pieces of infrastructure. And so, uh, like lighted trees on the the bottom left. Um, some of the other ones, the artistic lighting elements on the right hand side. And then this was a an inspirational photo photo from Indiana talking about this kind of major thoroughfare but also that it's uh for biking and you can see that separated biking is already there that infrastructure is there but how do you get the development to fit in with what's happening on the streetscape and how to make that more meaningful and they they really are um doing a good job with a trail and kind of um getting it all um merged merged in together in this plaza area in Indiana. So, that was a great I thought inspirational picture. Um, of course, we still have the private ownership problem. Uh, there's many pieces of property within this area. It's funny, Susan and I were talking about has any property changed hands since we last did the plan. >> No, I don't think any of these properties have changed hands. Maybe one in the 24 years that I've been here. >> Right. Right. So there's just no movement on on what's happening with property ownership, which can be good and bad. I mean, I think that people are hanging on to it because there's a few users in there just have really great businesses and they have a very uh good base of customers in this area. So they're they're just not going to move, which is fine. We don't have a time frame on when they have to move. >> I think a lot of the users very in >> just attach it to you. Sorry. [laughter] Thank you. Well, um I think a lot of the property owners very much internal to the site also are uses that could not locate in Minnetonka today if they were to move. And so they have a very nice spot in the west metro and would have to move quite far out to reestablish um their their types of uses. they're much more um industrial um outdoor >> storage >> storage space um type uses >> and yeah so I think the point of this is kind of pointing out the fracturedness of trying to put a project together um so if somebody were to sell it'll probably come in pieces and and trying to deal with that from an infrastructure standpoint and trying to lay out roads and and trails and connections is very difficult Um there were some site plans included. It talked about near-term, midterm, and long-term so that you could see what buildout could be over time. Uh again, very illustrative, nothing uh of, you know, it's not like you're going to build this plan, but it does give you ideas of amounts of units and what could fit on a property. That's why they do these fit plans. This one is the one for the corner. So Shady Oak and Excel sure, those of you on the council for a long time have seen many plans for redevelopment on this site. Um, again, the owner still has not made a deal with a developer per se. Uh, but they do still talk about redeveloping this site pretty regularly. Um, and so what could fit on this site and how many units and, you know, what size, etc., and how to lay out the whole um, building. So Susan and I have talked what do we do next? We're going to put some updates in the code. So today this area still sits in a light rail transit overlay and that's to help protect it from getting drivethroughs or too much investment in properties that maybe uh would change over the next 10 to 20 years. So there already is protection built in not only here but in Opus we still have overlay there as well. But the new ordinance will address this specific. Are we doing maybe a neighborhood? Um, do we talk about this as a village center? I can't remember. >> We did not previously talk about this as a village center, but it might be a good idea. >> Yeah. So, since this plan is done, then that might help inform what we write into the zoning ordinance for that section. And then if we have to do any comprehensive plan changes, we'll identify those. And then, of course, interested developers. That's the audience for um this document. So Hopkins is going through the same kind of rigor to show their planning commission. We've showed our planning commission. They had a lot of feedback for us which was great. We had a good conversation a couple weeks ago and um now Hopkins, I think their city council in the next month is looking at it. So I'll stand for questions if you have any. Um, I had one earlier that I asked you, Julie, about um I think it was on page 45. >> You said 10 years ago already. That's what you said. >> Yeah, exactly. I did say that. I did say that. [laughter] So, I was I was talking uh to you a little bit about um you know, we have $110 million worth of trails and >> sidewalks to build out. And um on page 45, um it shows where we would want to put in, I think, bike trails, some sidewalk, and you know, sort of what the buildout looks like >> there. And um so my question was um >> how does that get paid for >> also? Yeah. How does are we suggesting that developers pay for that or does it supersede somehow as we're looking forward, you know, imminently to the light rail coming? Does it supersede other trail sections? um because it's such a critical sort of commercial enterprise there, you know, entre, you know, just trying to get things energized and activated there. Does it supersede other trail sections? Um, and are we having develop are we suggesting that developers pay for that or you know where we're talking about if there's not that much there really new development where where I was talking about in page 45 then what >> yeah so I think definitely it most of the development of trails is developer driven in this plan and that's why we like to have plans like this when we sit down with developers as a group and and we say a sidewalk's expected here, a bike trail is expected here, a connection is expected here, and that is part of the redevelopment of of the site. The problem though, and we've seen it in Midgell where you get sections built at a time and it takes time and people get impatient and and it's like when's that sidewalk going to continue? So, sometimes that can be a little haphazard or incremental. Um, but as I always say, 40 years of being one way, it's going to take us a long time to get to the other side of that issue, right? And so trying to turn back into sidewalks and connections is going to be tough. Now, that doesn't mean that there might not be something on the city. And we talk about this a lot where we have opportunistic um do we need a little piece. We're doing it. Um I'm trying to think Phil of a recent example where we've we're talking about a connection and we're doing it opportunistically. Can you think of one? >> Red circle. >> Ah red circle. Actually that is a good example. Talk about that what we're doing. [laughter] >> Go ahead. Go. >> I'm I'm done talking for a minute. >> Yeah. on Red Circle between uh Doran and Greyar, there's a gap there. And so working with the developer there um and they decided to keep that building and renovate that building, but getting an easement donated >> um from from the the property owner. >> Um just got that done within the last couple months here >> and then we'll be building that trail segment next year because it becomes wildly cheaper when we can get the the land for free. >> Yeah. So yeah, working with people to figure out how to [clears throat] and and now you will be able to walk from Shady Oak all the way to the station with that trail without that trail finished. Um so that's what I'm talking about opportunistic. People are going to cooperate with the city. We don't have to pay for the land. We can just simply pay for the pavement. It's going to go a lot better in >> because it's one of those it's sort of a chicken and egg or like build it and they will come kind of thing. Also, you know, if you get ahead of it, again, it to me it's sort of like bus stations. We don't have them. >> Mhm. >> You know, we don't have bus shelters. If we did, people might ride the bus, but we can't build bus shelters till people start riding the bus. So, I'm just wondering here, right? You know, I mean, it is I understand the opportunistic, but that's why I was asking like would we move it up? >> Is there >> We don't like to mess with that too much. We don't like to mess with the priorities. That's why I was asking cuz I I I don't know that it >> there might be reasons but I I don't know what they would be. So >> I mean it would have to be a really stimulating connection to move something off the list and put this okay >> area in I would think. Right. >> I'm looking at my engineering friends >> and then and Matt and Yes. Okay. My the other like sort of overarching question that we haven't really talked that much about is there was [snorts] quite a bit of of um reference to the collaboration cooperation we need with Hopkins >> and um especially for future phases. And so um like on 46 there's some reference to that and I would just I would love to know yeah like a little bit more like when we're talking about um >> like the Excelsier Boulevard conversion and you know the places where where we really do overlap >> um >> you know what kind of things are happening and what does it look like? Well, I think it it could be Excel Boulevard. It could be trying to figure that out with the county how that's going to look in the long term. They don't have any plans right now. It's not on their CIP to redo it or anything, but kind of getting ready in case they put it on their list. That's one thing in terms of cooperation. Another would be like if we have a development, let's say there's a development that wants to be fronting on 17th, but they want to come back and buy these buildings in Minnetonka, too. So, how do we deal with that? How do we one make it fair or even depending on which city is the receiver or the obtainer of the property? We did this with Shady Oak um the Shady Oak building where we were able to switch the >> Shady or um subway >> y >> to um compensate for the land that they needed for the development. So, we've done that before. >> Um I don't think it's any different here. as long as it's fair to each city. I think that's usually the way we go into these discussions with other cities. So hopefully um that doesn't become a stumbling block or anything like that. And I'm also just thinking about, [snorts] you know, we do so much together, honestly, you know, recreationally and so forth that I, you know, are there talks about sort of almost like a joint venture with any of the park stuff or or we did cooperate during the construction of for the Shady Oak Plaza. We already have done that. We did the storm water sharing of the storm water construction and the costs for that. So there have been a couple of examples already even pre-development. So there we've done some cost sharing on both those avenues. Um I do think there's more to come. We did talk do you remember Susan when we talked about a joint planning board for this just this area to talk about so that each city had representation and do it that way. It got really complicated really fast. Well, I mean it is really complicated and that's why that's why I'm I'm really curious. But that's >> we did vet that a little bit, but >> I don't know. We set it aside >> and I think one of the reasons that we set it aside is that the purpose of this document 10 years ago and now is really a strategy. It's not intended to be a master plan because we don't know >> what may walk may walk through the door that we can't >> we can't even imagine right now. And so I think to dig into those those weeds, at least from my perspective, we thought we want to get a strategy out there that gets a general vision but not um >> not get so focused on the master plan that we don't allow ourselves to see what a developer may come to us with. Are we on on page 48 that is we talk about intersection safety? Do you are we ready for questions on that or should I wait? >> We'll take anything. >> Okay. So, um I also asked Julie earlier, you know, there there are big suggested changes possibly on on Excelsier and um very similar sounds like to Ridgedale Drive with a med, you know, gra uh green median and fewer lanes and um so my question really was there are times when it's pretty trafficy there. Much more trafficy I think than Ridgedale. And are we are we then just pushing already very trafficy Highway 7? Are we pushing the the traffic up to Highway 7 if we were to do something like that? or have we really just found that there's not sufficient um traffic um not to >> traffic from the development or traffic from light rail or all of it or >> well all of the above. I mean we're looking forward to what's going to happen there is sort of part of this whole visioning thing. So, um I they're they're very well I mean this is going to change traffic patterns because hopefully people will be using the light rail. So, that's one thing. >> And um we're a lot of this has to do with sort of revitalizing that that general area to the south of Hopkins and to our east, right? Um, and so just wondering, you know, if we're revitalizing it and we are taking lanes out, um, I think it'll look more attractive. I think um, it'll it might make it safer in some ways, but it just sort of feels like it might push traffic um to Highway 7 because it'll be a single lane each way. And there's a picture on >> page 51. >> Well, do you want to help with that question in terms of like regional traffic and >> pushing stuff to Highway 7? >> Yeah, I mean, we would certainly look at it. Highway 7's fairly well set up for pretty heavy traffic. But as long as the, you know, development occurs the right way, I think it should be okay. But we'd have to watch it. >> So, we'd work with community development. >> Yeah. And I think wouldn't we analyze that if and when Excelsure had those improvements that's when the analysis the detail would happen about whether or not that could stand a one lane situation or not. That's what we did with Ridgel. And in fact we didn't think Ridgale would handle with one lane but it does perfectly. >> Yeah. It made a big difference and it works really well. So we'd watch it and make sure we're doing what we need to. Okay. Anyone else comments on Shady Oak station? >> Yeah. >> Go ahead. >> Uh, thank you. I guess prom >> prom. [laughter] Yeah, it's prom. Sure. >> Um, so, uh, yeah, I just to just to reiterate kind of what we Julie and I spoke about this morning. two things that, you know, I'd like to see or I'd love to see potentially uh included as either a footnote, side note, whatever. Um the first of which is uh you know there's a point at uh shoot where's the page? Um closing mobility gaps and strengthening the links between Shady Oak station and downtown Hopkins. Um I'm wondering if we can rephrase that perhaps to um closing mobility gaps and strengthening links between Shady Oak Station and commercial um centers in both >> communities. Fair comment. >> Heard that comment before. And um and then the other thing, and this is more an aesthetic and it might be more of a master planning kind of issue, but just want to throw it out there so it's on the table, is um from some of the renderings, and I understand this isn't going to be exactly what it's [clears throat] going to be like. um a lot I I would just my concern that I expressed this morning was making sure that some of the mistakes that I've seen happen in uptown um and from living in big cities from you know Manhattan to Moscow and other places is um a lot of cities and and this vision too can seem like very monumental. So you've got, you know, midrises, 10 stories and up going straight up from the and you can even see that in Weisetta right now, the new development. Um, and goes straight up from the sidewalk. And it's very, um, architects have a bird's eye view a lot of times, and that's where they look. They're not looking at from street level. And I think a lot of people from the Midwest, we don't want to be in a canyon. Mhm. >> Um I would desert Manhattan like every two weeks because it would drive me crazy to be in that. And so I think Calhoun Square around that Calhoun Square in Uptown, what have you seen in the 80s? We were Julie and I were talking about used to be the place to be. And it was such a welcoming, cool place to be in the 80s and the early 90s. And part of the reason because it was human scaled and um and what they've lost that when they built you know these mid rise buildings straight up to the sidewalk um straight up to the setback. And so what DC and other cities do and have done well is they'll keep one to two star story facade straight up to the setback or the sidewalk uh sidewalk, but then their residential mid and highrises beyond that are step back. So you have that human scale right up and then you have and and I know developers are maybe not going to like it because then they're not building straight up but there's things that you can do with some of the facades and stuff to make it set back so you're not so >> close because think about it for those of us who walk down weetta right now if you go down to Weisetta and you're near the landing on the new um development there nobody likes to walk right next to that because you feel like you're just overshadowed. You know, people want to walk farther down on Lake Street past the MUN. Same thing with Uptown. It used to be all these great places to go, but now it just feels like you're in, you know, a mini Manhattan. And I just, you know, would hate to see that sort of thing happen there. So, anyway, it's comment for the future, but something to think about in terms of uh requirements for for developers and our design aesthetic. And I think uh we talked about on the phone just uh we would make notes on the PDF. So the ones that get posted to the city's website would have a few whatever we've heard here tonight and then we'll put comments in the plan. >> Okay. Thank you. >> If that's okay. >> Okay. >> Yeah, sounds good. Okay. Um study session work plan 2025. >> Yes. One second. I can't see. Here we go. >> There it is. So, for November, we've got >> budget, budget, budget, >> budget. It says 30 m minute open time, but >> budget >> budget. [laughter] >> And then it is December. [laughter] >> In December, we get to start all over again. Yay. >> Yep. So, >> um, so what we're supposed to ask if anybody has anything they want to any >> Right. If the if this doesn't reflect what you want to do, just you have to let me know. >> No, this is it. >> Yep. >> Sticking to the plan. >> Whenever I told Mike, we just redo. >> Yeah, we changed everything. >> I can send him an email. No, that's me. That's me. Okay. No changes to the upcoming agenda. Got it. >> All right. Thank you. >> With that, I think um we can be adjourned. >> Thank you.