[Music] all right well welcome everyone um tonight is Monday April 15th I hope you all have your taxes done um and uh this is a uh special joint city council meeting of the menaka city council and our Planning Commission it's a study session and so I'll call this meeting to order and we will go around the room and I will start with Mr Gordon Lauren you start we'll we'll go around and then we'll have um staff introduce themselves and then we'll have our guests introduce yourselves as well and someone will walk around with a with a a microphone so you can be heard Lauren Lauren Gordon city planner Julie wish community development director I'm Sean suder I'm uh the uh lead consultant with Zone Alicia gray Economic Development and housing manager Rena Dam assistant city manager Mike Funk city manager Derek Banks planning commissioner dub Calbert city council member at large Amanda Maxwell Planning Commission jar Su Planning Commission Brad won mayor Alex Hansen Planning Commission David Waterman Planning Commission Rebecca sha council member W two KY kley W four Kimberly will bur city council at large D minion Planning Commission Foster Bolton W one have Kelly OD Recreation director Sarah Westy assistant Recreation director Dakota crings inam Williston fitness center manager green heiny City attorney Darren Nelson Finance director Jacqueline Davis representing Jacqueline's foot care as a tenant at the marsh Stephanie Hansen owner of Prima despa I'm a tenant at the marsh centur L Kaya uh owner of tempered bodyw work tenant of the marsh uh Bob theman resident Chad dipman Twin Cities habitat for you Humanity Cindy Rich resident and member of the minona community housing team Sally Bressler member of the minaka community housing team Rachel Holmes resident and member of the Mills Church affordable housing team uh Jason Palm a resident and a member at Mills Church Joan Bliss minona resident David lant minetonka resident and Lead pastor at the Mills Church all right I think that's everyone thank you all for being here tonight and uh so we have several um business items tonight the first of which is our zoning diagnostic report and uh that was in the packet and M wishnack Julie I guess we go by first names and our plan in our in our informal study sessions Julie you want to take it away or thank you I think I'll still call you the mayor though you you can call me whatever you want Mike did you have any intro comments or do you just want us to take it away okay um thank you all for coming together I think we had the opportunity to have our consultant here in town tonight hence uh why we are all gathered at one time to hear the report that he has prepared uh but before he gets into that before I introduce him I do want to remind um the council and and the Planning Commission we've kind of been been on this journey for a while if you don't remember we had applied for a grant from the Metropolitan Council to look at the zoning ordinance and to look at it in a objective and evaluation type way uh so that we could determine whether or not the comprehensive plan goals would were being met with the zoning ordinance and Sean will get into this a little bit more when he gives his presentation we gave the council an update last sept member uh we linked your packet information for that so you had kind of an update along the way and then um we've actually just been waiting to get on a docket in front of you uh to hear the presentation I think that um there was also some involvement many of you participated in a survey so the Planning Commission and the council were surveyed for their opinions about uh the zoning ordinance and maybe what issues they saw Sean will recap that for you um obviously there's been some state level conversations about these issues as well so all of this timing actually worked out pretty perfectly and on top of that all of the planners in the entire nation are in Minneapolis right now meeting uh and we've just been uh at the conference for the last two days and uh again that's why Sean's in town and it made a lot of sense to have the presentation now uh just some opening comments to remind you uh the discussion is just purely that tonight it's discussion there is no vote taken at this meeting that's maybe more for The public's information uh discussion means that the city council Planning Commission members will talk and visit about the issues that Sean brings up and then there will be kind of a path that we share at the end I'll preview that a little bit um we really don't need much direction we're coming back in July with a housing update and during that housing update we'll maybe have a uh a clearer path in terms of the zoning work and then see if the council at that point is ready to proceed with some action so that's kind of the path of where we're headed uh with that I want to introduce Sean suder who is with Zone Co and he's been our consultant uh while we do this zoning evaluation so go for it all right okay all right here we are very good well thank you everyone for having me out tonight it's good to be here in Minneapolis for the APA conference like four or 5,000 city planners from around the country so I mean that's a fun crowd to be with you can imagine oh my gosh it's the Hot Topic it is actually zoning is has become the Hot Topic lately because of all the conversation around Zoning for reform in the United States a lot of which started right here in the Twin Cities so um pretty exciting uh to be here uh with you all U my name is Sean suder and I am lead principal and founder of zono and um hence the name we write zoning codes um I'm actually a lawyer and a city planner and uh have served in in public sector roles and um put together this consultancy of people we have about 10 of us and we write zoning codes for cities and communities around the country so it's good to be here and be working with you on this diagnostic report uh the purpose of the diagnostic report is exactly that to audit your existing zoning regulations and see um you know whether they are advancing your plan vision and you have the 2040 plan in place it's been adopted uh spoiler alert it's not consistent I think you all know that uh why because the uh zoning code has not been comprehensively updated uh in accordance with your plan and that's very typical uh of of communities around the country um communities oftentimes either have a requirement uh to do a plan every so many years and update the plan uh depending depends on your state um or they just do so and it's a little bit uh easier to update your plan and to do your planning process it's a little more fun uh than updating your zoning code every five years can you imagine that so zoning codes uh sort of sit on the books for 30 40 50 60 years it's not unusual to see a code uh we work on that's uh hasn't been really overhauled since the 1950 50s or 1960s so you're doing better than that um and uh so it's a good time you're doing the right thing here uh to getting that Grant from the Metropol planning organization was was smart so that you could take a look at uh your code now what we do is we go through every line of your zoning code um we do we do it pretty specifically and the reason we do that is because um when I was Chief counsel for land use and planning for the city of Cincinnati back in the early 2010s one thing that I did was I went through our zoning code and I said you know if you can't say why you're doing this if you can't justify a provision why is it in the zoning code and a lot of times it's just carried forward right over decades and it's what we've always done but this is a great opportunity to go through line by line and say okay is this serving us is this advancing our plan or is this actually serving as a a regulatory barrier uh to trying to get to where we want to go and we're really focused on your 2040 plan that's what the community said that you want to do so this is a checkup I always say you can't you know know what the Cure is until you know what the disease is um I'm I'm happy to say that you're not terminally ill your zoning code it's it's not the the end of the world I mean there's a lot of good stuff that's serving your community well in there but there's a lot of stuff that is not advancing uh the vision in certain parts of your community and on certain issues like housing uh diversity Etc I know that are important to you so that's what we're doing here tonight um and you know this is usually the first step in the process to comprehensively update your zoning code um and sometimes we do this as part of uh the first module of a project after you've already kicked off the zoning code rewrite other times we do this at this stage sort of independently and then you all decide you know do we want to go forward with a rewrite or or what um I had to sit that on my computer but not up there does okay so um key the research obviously we review everything your planning we work with staff talk with your planning professional planning staff uh analyze uh how it is you know our independent judgment it's not a science uh but you know based on our knowledge of of zoning and codes around the country and best practices and and how codes uh relate to Vision which they should be an implementation we analyze it and evaluate it and then make some recommendations for you to to consider as we go forward some of the guiding principles like I mentioned that um we have at Zone Co is really zoning should only regulate what um should regulate only what needs to be regulated right so um there shouldn't be things in there that you can't justify essentially um zoning should respect both existing and desired development patterns I think that's really key you know we're not we're not trying to throw out uh everything that is you know know been done before right you have a lot of good things here um and we have to respect the existing development patterns and then focus on where those desired changes might be and then obviously zoning should be the implementation of the plan and if you find that it's serving as a barrier to trying to get things that you want in this community uh then that's a problem we need to eliminate those barriers and PVE the pave the way so I always say you know if you want to know how your zoning code is working or not working just look around see what's been built that's a great indication of if it's working or not uh if if if you don't like it it's probably not serving your community if it's it's achieving all the goals then wonderful there's nothing much to do um why do I keep doing that that's very confusing all right so the existing I'm gonna close that the the existing zoning code that you have was was established in the 60s when minona became its own uh municipality there was a major overhaul done in the 80s obviously there was has been a lot of development here in the 80s and the 90s and the 2000s especially with the interstates and uh just sort of the growth of the Minneapolis St Paul region um over that time period uh the uh code is about 367 pages of of fun reading um and it is I would say you know a traditional uh sort of zoning code from that era it's just loaded with with text um not a lot of helpful Graphics uh or or tables or charts that we see in modern zoning codes to help uh you administer and use it um and it also has the waterfall approach that I love so much uh with the uses right so this uses allowed only uses allowed in the prior zone are allowed in this Zone and that whole thing and that's just really hard to follow somebody along the way and this is Nationwide decided that that might be an efficient way to WR a zoning code probably back in the 60s and 70s and it turns out that it's just confusing um so we have we have better ways to approach that again you know it's achieving certain things and not others but I would say overall it's a 40 almost 40 year old code and it it looks like one and so what's what happens like I said most communities don't want to redo their zoning code often it's a it's a big undertaking it's a big legislative process um I encourage them to obviously it would be great every time if you did your plan you overhauled your zoning code but that's that's that doesn't happen um but what happens is um you sort of get settled into the zoning code and then you amend it peac meal and you do that every time uh whatever the issue of the day is or whatever the trend is that you want to address or or the problem and so and that's kind of what you've all done and that's very like I said very typical of communities around the country and since 1986 you've amended this code 338 times um and it does that that sounds like a lot but over the years it's probably about 10 times a year um that you're amending the zoning code and where are those amendments uh about 30% of those Amendments have been in the administrative sections dealing with process um about 36% have been zoning District amendments it's going to be things like uses and development standards I would guess over time uses coming in and out uh the New Uses coming in that you want uses you don't want um somebody comes in and says I you know you're seeing variances over and over for the same thing and you're like we just need to fix the code and then uh 25% of are just other regular uh General regulation amendments so what this tells me you know we go into a city and look at the zoning code if it's being updated peac meal obviously uh it's it's probably not serving uh a community that's evolving and and yours is ALS Al evolving Trends you know 1986 we really talking about infill multifam housing um you know we were talking earlier about an infill project at the mall you know was that we weren't talking about that in 1986 probably um you know so the zoning code wasn't written for that kind of thing right um in 2024 that's all people are talking about is how do we create you know housing diversity housing options affordable housing everybody in the country is talking talking about this um walkable places um and and so the zoning code um doesn't do that because in 1986 that wasn't what we were talking about so Now's the Time to take a fresh look at things um your comprehensive plan goals look like the got a little messed up there on the the the formatting but um strengthening neighborhoods through housing Improvement and preservation as well as promoting new affordable market rate housing again um almost every Community we work in that is a goal because housing is expensive everywhere it seems anymore uh and um you know there's not a great diversity of housing especially in Suburban communities that are majority if not super majority single family housing goal two foster housing diversity by promoting a variety of housing type sizes and prices this is another one where I always say you know American zoning is is an is a is a century old experiment never in the history of humanity have we lived like this um right wrong or indifferent but we've never lived in single use places that are served only by automobiles ever we've always walked or taken carts or horses or we've lived where we work so this is really new in in the span of humanity that we've uh taken this experiment and some may think it's worked others don't think it's worked and now we got to figure it out out um but what we found is when you have one type of housing you're going to get one type of person generally right you're going to get a family and that's what single family homes were built for this American Dream the Suburban the quarter acre lot again nothing wrong with it but your goal is to Foster housing diversity so how do we bring your kids back to live here after they graduate from college how do we age in place and maybe we don't want a quarter AC or a half Breer house to maintain where are we going to go do we have to leave the city and go somewhere else um you know what happens when we are uh even you know aging out of living independently is there is there senior Assisted Living those kinds of things um does everybody want a a 3,000 SQ foot house some people want an 800 foot apartment uh so that's the that's the the conversation in in many many Suburban communities around the country that were developed in with one development pattern um and then you know creating a connecting a connected pedestrian bicycle system uh a lot of cities have great trails and sidewalks and things like that but for the most part most of our Suburban communities were built for uh cars and yours is no exception right I mean you're going to get around by car most likely so H how do we start to infuse some of that walkability walkable amenities uh into your into to your city and then supporting business expansion and retention of course uh we want to make this a great place to live and work and uh do business okay so what struck me um I always love looking at the future land use plan in your compreh in any comprehensive plan because this is the vision truly for what the community is going to be uh and if you look here to go back a couple slides this is your existing map and you see all those big blue navy blue uh Parcels those are large commercial Parcels um and and you have a lot of large commercial Parcels whether it be shopping centers a mall uh office and business Parks things like that uh it's not a community of smallscale neighborhood business walkable neighborhood business that's that's missing right but you do have a lot of drivable commercial okay and you can tell that just by looking at the map and seeing how large those Parcels are um so if you look what struck me as I looked at this a lot of those navy blue Parcels are now purple and what's fascinating is uh mixed use is now the uh the conversation in those places and so what the city uh has said in the land use plan your vision is for those places to turn into more mixed use rather than single use and I think that's probably my biggest takeaway you know look at all that yellow that's your single family that's not changing and I don't think anybody's proposing it to change the areas that are not yellow or maybe not institutional are the ones that are the ones where you're going to start seeing incremental changes uh and that is in additional density additional uses um I will say the trend is away from single use zoning um it's it's just not economically sustainable if you think think about um you know a shopping center uh when when the trends go up and down or an office building now office buildings are in bad shape right um because that's all they were built for and so now the question is how do we retrofit these it's so expensive um many are just going to have to be torn down and the land reutilized so you know what what you're saying here is how do we Infuse a mix of uses that create a vibrant place that's economically sustainable that's your last goal right the the support businesses economic sustainability you want to give the place the best chance to thrive and survive uh you have a a mall that seems to be doing well many people have that same mall that is empty um we hope that mall continues to do well you have the demographics to support a good a really nice mall it's probably going to be fine um but if Trends change dramatically you don't know and that's a single purpose single year use mall now what you're doing is I think really positive you're putting housing in there so that helps that mall that's going to help make that a more sustainable place um so anyway you know that was the big takeaway is if you look at your existing mixed use acreage you have 13 acres in the entire uh 18,000 Acres that's mixed use zoned you're going to 1,097 um which is about 6% of the city so that's a humongous increase in places that you're calling for mix of uses um with respect to other uses like office you know right now you've got almost 609 Acres of office and you've uh reduce that you're reducing that down to a lot 238 same with industrial uh the long and short of it is these are the places where I think um your zoning code needs to match up with your vision the most um do we need to go in and uh mess around with all that yellow no I don't think so I think it's probably fine it's not going to change but it's all these other places where you can start achieving that vision and that's where I would focus if I were you on uh your zoning reform efforts not to say that the whole code couldn't be made to be uh more user friendly and um clear and consistent all that I think you could probably do do the whole code over but um as we see in a lot of places uh the single family zoning maybe you add in adus um or or other things like that if you don't already have them but you have those actually so you have them so I mean there's not too much to be done there uh it's those other areas so the um we talked to the we did a survey of stakeholders and this is what they said more zoning and development flexibility less rigidity again I think that goes to the economic sustainability kind concept let's make sure that we don't build everything so rigidly that when the trend changes it's obsolete I think that's really important um more housing affordability absolutely and how do you do that you can do that with Supply um you can do that with unit sizes you can do that with other inclusive zoning um tools better connectivity and transportation options uh that that is a reflection of the auto orientation of this community and the the size of the road and that's just how it was built um and again so if you want better connectivity we're going to have to probably force that a little bit through the zoning and that could just be as simple as like a culdesac subdivision having some access to something and not just being you know cut cut off and and uh so there's lots of things we can do there uh clear zoning standards and less discretion um when we start seeing a lot of discretion uh given it's not a bad thing a lot of times to give the administrative staff discretion but if everything is going to the discretion of a board or commission um you know we need clear definitions so that nobody has to make interpretations all the time when you update peace meal a code over time things get messy it just does right terms don't match up necessarily no matter how good you are how hard you try things are just going to get a little wonky over time uh things get missed things get maybe uh conf like uh you know contradictory whatever so you're hearing that look we just need very clear here's what we can here's what we can't do here's the built form we're looking for here's the uses environmental and tree protection balanced with property rights I assume that environmental and tree protection might be stopping things and so the question is how do we integrate that and still get the good results without it complet halting a project and then uh update processes and fees to make projects more economically viable we see this in many many communities uh time is money obviously the more professionals you need to hire the longer it takes it just drives up cost we call it regulatory risk and it's the cost think about every dollar I invest in a project in minetonka how much of that goes toward all of the process quote unquote red tape if you will but all of that right to get it approved how much of that dollar is that that's going to drive up the cost of the project uh considerably um I don't think in a market this strong it's going to drive anybody away but in some of the communities we work in it it will drive people away um so anyway those are the things we're hearing from your community um and it it goes kind of hand inand with your planning and the independent review that we've done um we just went through your your code I'm not going to go through the whole thing obviously uh line by line or anything like that you have it you can read it of course we're here for questions but you know we went through we looked at the administrative regulations they're scattered throughout the code we like to see those uh in one place so that you can find them easily um you should be able to open to a chapter uh whether you're an armchair zoning person or uh the planning director and you should be able to to um figure out very quickly and easily how to get from A to Z on a project um and if you have to flip around or if you can't find things or if you miss things because you don't know they're in there to begin with it just makes it much harder think about if I bring an application in for something and I bring it to staff and staff says well why didn't you put this in well I didn't know it was there because it oh that's in chapter 14 you know it just it it wastes everybody's time and money um and and and it creates frustration so that's one thing like let's get it all tidied up and into one place and maybe we can do some stream streamlining um reviewing all staff board committee roles and processes I note and I don't usually you know we can talk about this later but my understanding is Planning Commission does pretty much all the reviews both legis quasi legislative and quasi judicial and city council does quasi judicial and legislative takes those actions right so there's a there there's a heavy lift on both of your parts I think but that's fine it's you know um but I think as part of this process be a good time to take a fresh look at everything and see if there's any way to maybe streamline it but still get good results I mean that's what I think most communities are saying we have all these reviews so that we get the best product right I think you can probably slim down some of that and still get a good product if you have a good code that you're working from the code that reflects your vision if you don't have one you're spending more and more times and time in hearings and more and more time sitting in this room or wherever talking about trying to fit you know uh square peg into a round hole kind of thing so if you get the code where you want it it should help streamline things uh removing duplic D duplicative sections um a lot of times the code will just repeat itself over and over again we we can clean that up and then um there's some opportunities that you could do more staff review for things that don't require a public hearing or may not rise to the level of a public hearing so we can take a look at all those things um residential districts uh you know it's generally low density residential it's suburban and auto oriented again I don't think that's change you're relatively built out in that regard um really the focus is on those medium to high density areas uh how do we create fewer barriers uh to getting more of that um infill uh more of that mixed use that you're looking for uh and making it you know not as cumbersome to get through that process a little bit more by right um and your code is is is not that you're you're falling back on the Pud or the pids um because the base zoning just isn't there for what you're trying to do so when I see communities using a lot of planed districts thatp ially tells me that the base zones aren't aren't calibrated to the market so you're defaulting to these these plan districts um and very very common um but you know it also gives you a you know a hearing on it and you get to dive into the design and whatnot I think there are ways we could still get good results without having to go through that that process uh and there are a lot of lot of things that we can consider doing um and and uh you know You' you got you've got all the stuff in here the floor area ratio you've got every kind of standard there is uh which is fine we could probably do a little bit more form based kind of uh building placement scale and massing without going through some of the more traditional confusing zoning uh standards that that we have in there a non-residential districts um again the slide got messed up a little bit but um you know there's some ways I think we can we can create some more context uh appropriate districts so most zoning codes including yours is sort of it's a ukian code right familiar with that so it's a code that's use based it's use segregation so you have a list of zones and then you put the zones wherever you know you want the use to be for that particular place more and more we're starting to see zones and districts that are calibrated to geography certain geographies so might be the the Glen L yeah the Glen Lake zone right yeah or or or something like that and that what you can do there is you can specifically draw the District of where you want that to be and then you can calibrate standards and uses that get to that outcome that desired outcome in that particular place now you don't have to do this for 100 places you pick the ones that are you know really opportunities for change you know four five6 whatever it is the difference between that approach and what you have now is let's say you go in and you change the business zone or whatever your commercial district is if you make a change and you say you know you're allowed to have apartments by right up to X number per per uh acre you are doing that throughout the entire city all business zones get that and that's hard to do because people might not want density on every commercial Zone throughout the entire city so if you can be more Surgical and more specific about where you want things I think that's probably going to be a more effective approach for you than sort of the one siiz fits-all just menu that we've traditionally done in zoning um of course we have to look at your permitted uses just to make sure that you know they're up to dat they're modern they're getting they they they reflect the diversity of the economic activities that you're looking for and that it's providing a enough flexibility that it's sustainable you know a good example Office Park if only thing that's allowed is office you know you're you're not helping that to survive um and and it think about I mean it came out of nowhere you know we had a pandemic and who would have who would have predicted a pandemic would have killed off the office market right like nobody and 2019 would have come up with this prediction uh but it did it and now place around the country are looking at their zoning and saying oh my gosh we got to rezone all these business Parks because they don't they're they're not economically viable anymore okay natural resources another big part of your community obviously it's a a you know there are a lot of wetlands and um other other a lot of it's very wooded it's it's quite nice um and so we want to protect that we want to weave that in um we also want to look at open space requirements impervious surface ratios things like that just to make sure that um they're addressing your storm water and making sure that we're being sensitive to your to your natural environment um and I know trees are an important thing so you know maybe there are some uh more some more specificity we can put around this to avoid some of the you know uh more more uh open you know concerns and and allowing it to maybe um stop projects uh where where things are are a little more ambiguous so lot of lot of talk and I want to hear from you all but overall recommendations um the one thing you could do that would improve everything if you didn't change a word of it would just be to reorganize it clean it up get all the definitions in one place I also saw definitions scattered throughout that makes it really hard um I would put it all in one glossery all the administrative procedures in one place um I would streamline all the districts put in graphics tables charts all that uh to illustrate and both regulate and make it easy to understand uh so we're looking for clarity consistency user friendliness Equity uh as well and um resilience and that all makes it more defensible um separate standards and regulations from definitions your code does what a lot of codes do they Define the term and then regulate in the same sentence um that that's that's just confusing I I would separate all that um more how to use uh make it easy to use uh navigation um and the next steps uh sorry about these slides they got goofy uh the next steps um after you're done with the diagnostic and if you want to proceed forward with a zoning code rewrite really getting into the map taking a look at like we talked about what what Special Districts might we create to uh Custom Tailor towards a development pattern we're looking for uh what are those list of zones uh in districts uh and then what are the standards uh that we can uh put in place both use and development to to get us to where we want to go and then uh that's that's a very public process a lot of Engagement um obviously led by the plan you've already adopted and then we codify it and make it user friendly and um then it's adopted so it's uh usually about a 12 to 18month process depending um quite a bit of community engagement uh a lot of technical staff and consultant time and a lot of time with you all um so it's definitely an an involved process but uh tends to be a a rather um you know useful exercise uh if you come out of it with something that's aligned to your plan and and gets you there um more simply so that's all I have on that I look forward to discussion your questions thank you thank you Sean uh mayor so we don't have your typical questions when you're in a study session so this a little bit different it's more to kind of gauge questions issues things people are thinking about so I'll turn it back to you at this point all right well thank you Julie um so what I would say is had a presentation had some and how we can make our our zoning code better and then I'm sure that there are you know we as Planning Commission and as Council we're dealing with these issues all the time we have different levels of History um in terms of how maybe we got here and um and when I was talking to Mike today we talked you know I mean our our zoning code and um our policies are incremental we have an issue and we solve our problem we solve that problem and then as appropriate you put it in the code but but I think the very thing that has been described here is that okay the cohesiveness and the organization probably needs need some work and then and then there are probably things that um we've been through a pandemic the the world view has changed in terms of significant parts of our city so what thoughts and questions do you want to share and get answered as we as we how to tackle um the challenges of zoning in Min and I forgot to mention to mayor uh we have about 25 minutes for this portion very good I'll be a good time okay thank you so anyway um yes so first of all I wanted to thank Julie and her team for getting this Grant and having this study done and thank you to Zone Co for like such a a a well-presented uh report and that is easy to read easy to follow and easy to understand um so I I appreciate that um so my question is you talk about um design guidelines that are kind of woven through the code and and and pulling those out separate so I'm not it's not clear to me how it works currently um as far as design guidelines so like say a developer brings forth a project that doesn't require any variances or any exception meets all the codes but they they present just a a awful ugly building does you know does Planning Commission or is there is there input into that or what what do the design guidelines do and are they are there are they things that we that are requirements or suggestions let me answer with the technical answer to your question and then you can maybe expand on it sounds good okay so and I'll just go with first names Kimberly uh the answer about design guidelines there are design guidelines Loosely in the code today mostly in 394 that's where you see the design guidelines there's a list of products you can use on the buildings and that sort of thing so I'm going to use that as the example of exist ing design guidelines but for future yeah so it's sort of a Continuum that can be like you have now which are sort of loose guidelines not enforcable but true guidance uh not necessarily laws or you can go as far as to prescribe um in regulations what materials usually it's what materials you don't want right um just as an example a lot of a lot of community ities will will say we don't want vinyl siding on you know sometimes anywhere on the building or on more than x% of the building or on the front facade whatever it may be um or we would want Natural Stone on some percentage another design guideline could be the garage placement you know the garage shouldn't be the dominant feature of the house it should sit behind uh the house by so many feet those are just examples of things that can be requirements um you know the the the variation in roof uh forms and types um so that every house isn't exactly the same I think give a ton of that in minona but you know to avoid that sort of cookie cutter uh look um and and so yeah there's a lot of things historically minaka just hasn't done that kind of Regulation when it comes to single family even well multif family somewhat but I would say single family or median density absolutely not there's no standard for design guidelines there um another example would be like plac making so we have Place making guidelines for Opus and rale they're not laws but they have a set of standards that we wish to implement with every Redevelopment so it's more Redevelopment based than it is for anything else that makes sense yes thank you other questions Paula sorry just following up on that um can we uh given that we're going to have the climate action and adaptation plan coming into play is there any place for some of those considerations in terms of our zoning and is that something that we other communities are doing or that we can do in terms of materials um design things like that absolutely yeah so any kind of lead standards or materials um that uh promote um especially uh uh permeability of surface things like that um reflexive solar uh all those kinds of things um Can can be incorporated in those those are the typical ones um but you could also do sustainable materials um up to x% of your your project has to be sustainable materials there a lot of things but see Energy Efficiency and absolutely energy that's the lead uh yeah thank you all right Alex thanks for the presentation Julie and Lauren Sean this is probably a pros and cons question for you with all your 4,000 non- nerdy individuals downtown um we're here 40 years down the road since the last refresh should the city in your experience should the city mandate to itself that every 20 years a zoning refresh has to happen so that they stay more current what are the pros and cons to that I I've heard it talked about I've never seen it happen um why not I don't know I think it's uh it it it's just kind of it's hard to most places don't want to don't want to be so absolute about it if it's working they want to have to do it I guess um I don't know it's a tricky one to to mandate that you you legislate every so often I don't know why it doesn't happen but I've heard it talked about I'd like to do it every five when you do a plan I'm in the business of right and Zoning codes so there you go you're you're paid here but I I mean if I could I just want to maybe expand on what you were saying I think that sometimes you have to understand that you can't make all those changes that often because there's some predictability that you have to give the people that live or work or have businesses in your community about the expectations of what they bought what they live in so I I do really think that is the basic issue of changing all the time um I think that Sean's right when you have something major happening and you have Market adjustments you can see that in minetonka we did the parking ordinance we've done the tree ordinance twice since I've been here um you know we've responded to some need and and they were those were big ordinances to write they took a year sometimes that at some points you remember all of this so I think it's really this kind of stability that a city wants to provide their residents and their business owners and that's why they don't change it very often no I I hear that I would say from a dis discussion standpoint I'd push the city to challenge itself a little bit not every city has a Julie or a Lauren to be a steady hand at the wheel and Julie what happens when when you guys are gone you know hope hopefully minaka has that Steady Hand but to me like every 20 years or something like that versus 40 and kind of an ad hoc addressing of the zoning ordinance feels a little more thoughtful to the builders in our community Fair Point Fair Point thank you Rebecca thanks Brad um I I really appreciated the report and the the thorough nature of it um one of the things that the report brings up and um is something that's been in in relevancy in Minnesota is this missing middle issue in your experience I mean you're seeing a lot of communities are there things that you've seen communities do that has accomplished some of that kind of development and the one thing that I'm really concerned about in minona is you know you know we've got some one and A2 2 acre lots with I don't want to call them affordable housing but more accessible kind of naturally occurring that my concern is unintended consequences where now you have a 2 acre lot that you can put five $2 million houses on and you've torn down a $500,000 house to do that um so anyway that's maybe a two-part question one is what do you see encouraging that development and two what have you seen some unintended consequences well uh it's a great question so missing middle housing being that three to maybe six eight unit uh buildings that we saw really a lot postwar in this country um you know you don't see too many 4unit apartment buildings being built anymore partly partly because of economics um but also because of zoning and that's because most zoning codes are primarily single family um and or or they're uh set up for garden style apartments right so it's either a lot of units or one unit in a lot of cods so that that's one reason um what I've seen is that if you want to encourage two three four five six unit buildings which I think the the the economics of this community probably would would be okay it would work um then it's all about the mapping where are those being located um would I introduce that throughout all of your single family zones no because then you have the problem uh that you've raised which is uh taking um single family down and and either putting in a bunch of uh more units or or a a multif family and a single family but along the edges is what I've seen on the corners on the edges or some of your more uh principal roads ways allowing for that Redevelopment to happen by allowing for uh you know three four five units on a property rather than capping it at one that that can work but it's also uh not only the map it's the standards so what is the scale and massing of that building is it is it the scale and the mass of a single family house so sort of Blends in like the 1920s we used to do you know if you live in 1920s neighborhood you might have a two family or three family mixed in with a one family like that's where I live um there's a four family apartment two doors down for me um and that's just how it was done then uh so you know in in in the right context that's appropriate um and so but you can make it of the scale that makes sense um for the community so it can be done um it can be done but again all of this is where's the right place for that would I recommend that you just throw away all of your single family zoning and say three to five units everywhere no that's not going to work for a suburban community where people bought in with the expectation that they had a single family home with a yard and all that sort of thing so but the whole Community doesn't have to be that right so we can Infuse it where where it makes sense oh I was just going to respond just I mean remember how expensive construction is too I mean we're going through the the twin home um construction plans that we have for one of the city owned livs I mean it's $325 a square foot to build that unit so I think while it seems like it'll work um I can't see the math working without subsidy um at least we haven't seen a project like that and with the land cost in menka I think that then adds even more so I think even with land out of the equation that price is still quite Steep and so I think think that still has to be reckoned with even if you you're allowing and I think this this concept of automatically allowing more density will create more affordability is a little flawed on that front um that's just what I think because I've seen it and I've done the math and it doesn't work so um I we have to be careful about that I I agree I always call it the missing money not the missing metal and if you just run the numbers it it's and and you see they see this kind of thing in very expensive places where they can get $5,000 a month for a part like se you know Seattle and San Francisco and you know it's just it it's harder to do for all the reasons you mentioned um you might get the density but you don't have the affordability exactly it's not going to be Che unless it's subsidized yeah kzy I'm sorry and then de so my question was kind of similar I think you kind of explained it but um my question was or comment um I'm worried about like where you're going to build these mixed use homes and um I'm worried about like certain areas being able to certain areas where there's more vocal voices and more expensive homes saying well not in my area and so I'm I'm I'm wondering um is there a strategy for that because that's what we tend to deal with in our city um and then also um I'm thinking about in areas there's like um there was a joke about like the area where I live is like the lower end of minaka right and we know that all the homes in Min tanka are kind of expensive but you know um I'm worried about like certain areas of Min tanka you're putting more of the mixed use homes in those areas versus spreading it out I mean even though you're saying well we can't um um roll back what we've already done but I feel like it's important that we do push against that and that we do um make sure that we are spreading it out more and instead of just putting it in one area and then making sure that even the areas where we have the expensive homes we still have some mixed use there because why should places get a pass to me that's getting a pass why should those areas get a pass of not having mixed use homes in those spaces as well so that's my thought process and I'm wondering how do we get there a lot a lot of it's a great I mean that's a big big issue right and we're seeing that all over the country too is is you know I I want a more affordable housing I want more density but not not in my backyard right um and so a lot of that is U fueled by Mis misconception but I I always look at communities and I say you know if you're really anti- multif family is it there are a lot of reasons as we know why that might be the case but it's also probably you don't have a great multif family stock you know and so your perception of it isn't great because it's old or it's you know run down or whatever and so I you know my my argument there is build new and and that'll provide competition and hopefully they'll renovate those buildings Etc um but I think it's also um about how do you incrementally increase it I think it's really hard if you were just to say multif family everywhere right I mean that's going to be a hard sell I think just generally um legislatively but I think if you if you're strategic about it and you can say okay here are the places that make sense throughout the community we need to identify areas that that make sense from a land use standpoint um and and a built form standpoint and and create that incremental density in those places and it might be a three family rather than a 60 unit apartment building that's not going to be appropriate everywhere I think you've you've um uh mapped those big Parcels because there's land there's there's land that's available those parking lots like the mall most of the time aren't being used let's put housing there that makes a lot of sense for high high density high intensity housing uses it's also walkable to amenities um but in the middle of a subdivision in the woods probably not but how do we you know increase uh maybe provide some Town Homes some infill Town Homes um something like that would make more sense in that context so still has to be context appropriate but I agree you know it's a CommunityWide conversation um and yeah it's going to be a big policy question y Deb did you have comment yeah um I have some questions about the actual packet but thank you it is a wonderful packet it was super informative and a lot to chew on thank you to a lot it's a brave and very important thing that we are embarking on so first of all I also want to acknowledge that as we talk about you know we we have people in the room that are really concerned about affordable housing with good reason pretty much everyone in this room and the point that we've heard over and over but I just want to spell it out is with new construction affordable affordable housing the only thing that makes it affordable to the residents that live in it is subsidies so when we think about you know I was at the edac meeting at Mills Church those are $673,000 per unit buildings that are being made made affordable through basically subsidies so I just want to lay that out there um in the packet there's a there's a chart um starting on the 50s 50 something as you scroll and it goes through the 60s and it tells you you know if it if it's meeting our goals or is a barrier and towards the end of that you know starting on like page 63 as you scroll which would be 67 Etc maybe a couple of uh page 62 which would be 66 it seems like it's offset because so I'm just yeah I'm hoping we can get an updated chart so that I can looks like cut off mind around what we're meeting and what we're not meeting yes we um and I also want to to there's so many qu so many questions so I think about I'll just ask two so thinking about I was trying to understand what like the height and setback [Music] averaging I I know what you're getting at but it's hard for me to figure out like how does that work what's an example like how can I Envision that that's one question and then a a simpler question is so let's say we had something like a commercial a commercial Zone like those sort of generic um designation to make it more inclusive and less exclusive but we have some commercial Enterprises that are um more controlled so things like vaping uh cannabis uh liquor stores you know things that how does that change with this so those are just two questions and I'm let me quickly answer her first or her second question any of those other laws are not in the zoning ordinance so liquor stores tobacco that sort of thing that's outside of the zoning code so that's now your uses however except that don't we have like it has to be so far from a school so that's a policy it's a policy that's a policy yep that's your liquor policy but go ahead and answer the rest rest of the question yeah absolutely we'll take a fresh look at all your uses um and and where they're allowed or where they're not allowed by right but maybe by some special exception or conditional use um and more and more communities are are looking at you know how do we not concentrate certain uses in one place how do we uh not crowd out other land uses with you know the same land use used to come up with gas stations came up with check Cas caching stores over the years now it's vape shops um medical or I don't know if you have marij I think you have all marijuana up here right yeah so well not yet the Horizon all right so yeah we're we're in the same boat on a corner in your neighborhood yes yes so uh that that's another one that folks are looking at how do we make sure that there's no concentration there there ways we can do that in the zoning code um and your first question was about height setback averaging so in a community that's largely built out in established like yours um I assume you're seeing some tear down yeah tear down it's happening and a lot of times the new house is like massive right and and of course with the values they want to they want to get every square inch they can on this thing right um so it and it just looks Goofy and it crowds out light and privacy for maybe the person that has the ranch house next door um what averaging does is it either depending on how far you go um it says you know you have to look at the existing setbacks for 300 feet in either direction on the same side of the street or thousand whatever you want to make it and then you just average those so that the new construction is not out of place it's within that tolerance of of set back same with the height um and and that just you know so if if you're building a new house next to three ranches I guess you need to be in line with what that ranch house height looks like so um it's kind of like our policy except with height instead of square footage so it kind of addresses the same thing but just a different way to attack it if that makes any sense and square footage is hard because you have to kind of come up with you know my idea of a big house might be different than yours right so as a community we have to come up with what is too big of a house and then you get in that argument and debate with people I like the setback and the height uh because it controls the the massing and the scale of the building without getting into you can only do 3,000 square feet but I want to do 4 th you know or 2,000 weuse we use an average of FL ratio okay in the neighborhood so we I mean that that that I think we are getting very much the same things but rules are different but but it it considers work that can work it's it's that's a little trickier different way to do yeah it's a different way to do it I usually it's interesting I see some codes with Floria ratio and residential usually that's a commercial concept um kind of came out of Manhattan but uh it's been applied to residential um it's a little wonky but if it works it works yeah I don't know a makes me think about the the minimum buildable area something that you that you address and you there was a suggestion of you know eliminating minimum buildable area and so I wanted to know what are the unintended consequences that could arise from that you know what there's a minimum buildable area to make sure that you can build some kind of home and then we get rid of that and um I I think there are a couple options there you can you can have the minimum buildable area which we've done in some places you can do an open space minimum open space requirement you can do a uh minimum landscape requirement you can do a impervious versus perious surface um requirement uh there are a lot of ways to do that what's happening in a lot of communities uh is that um the the living the the under roof is growing but also the outdoor impervious patios and all that stuff yeah courts and all that is filling up the lot and you're having runoff issues so uh it's not necessarily just buildable area it's really um impervious surface percentages of the lot so we're GNA we're going to move on but um the mayor usually goes last and I didn't ask a question so I do have a question for you and and it it relates to something that you said because in development time is money I mean there's there's no two ways about that and um and you've talked about streamlining our processes and some of the things that we've done have worked um in the opposite direction because and I've been doing this for a while um but early in my time on the council um the sense that I got in talking to Residents who were concerned about development in their neighborhood was that by the time it comes to the city council the train has left the station and the decisions have been made and I was very sensitive to that concern and I wasn't the only one and as a result we added some steps to our process we do concept reviews now so that we can see a concept before there's even a proposal and so the project doesn't exist the clock hasn't started um but we have an idea of what's coming and if um if we if there are concerns if it's not going to work plus the the public becomes aware of what's Happening we don't take public engagement in concept of but we we used to and decided that's the wrong way to do it but but we you know it allows the the people who are going to be most affected by it in the neighborhood to be aware of what's coming and and we um so we stretch things out and just provide more information now that's costly um hopefully when you do a concept review um you uh you can do it with in a more Bare Bones fashion and a potential Builder or developer hasn't spent you know a lot of money to get to that point but obviously they have to spend some money to um to do those concept reviews and and that's my question I mean you know people want I mean I'm a firm believer people know this that you know the local level is where to to tackle these things we do not want to have things imposed Upon Us by the legislature by the county or whatever we we we like local control um but at the same time recognizing that time is money and you know kind of balancing that um so that people are informed while at the same time um you know if we can if we can streamline processes uh people are going to um be more interested in developing in minaton so what thoughts you have along those lines oh a lot and that's something we we definitely requires a longer conversation but one one the one is the concept review we see this a lot the concept is becoming less and less conceptual and more and more project like yeah what what are those materials on the front of that building so now the architect's designing the building right and then and then they're coming back three you know I don't know about here the planning commission's all laughing look at that in some communities some communities I'm working and they're coming back five and six times with revisions which is just extraordinarily expensive and by the time they're done they might as well just have permit drawings ready to go you know but then if they get a thumbs down because you know then people come out and and they say we're anti to it it's just it's it's it's a very expensive process well and that's and that's the thing I mean um you know I I think the goal is to to be open and you know we always hear the word transparent um but at the same time um I think we're starting to deal with some of the unintended consequences of that and so maybe we need to take a step back because um I mean I do remember one time a developer came with essentially was an XL Spreadsheet with x's on it in terms of where his Properties or his buildings were going to be and I do remember kind of snickering in the back room I'm like that was a concept I mean you know and so but he didn't spend a lot of money on it you know um but you know so but but I I think the unintended consequence of trying to do things the right way sometimes take you down that path and then uh yeah and that that's a problem as well so that'll be a separate conversation next time you come to town there you go sounds good all right I think um Julie you want to wrap it up uh wrap it up uh we're going to come back in July and have another conversation and kind of project for you what the time frame is do you have some ideas there Lauren about what that is you and then he turns this up you had previewed it earlier back for the July 15th study session I think was our date and so we'll kind of uh package up a housing discussion and a zoning discussion together I think those two are relatable enough to continue to talk about and then we'll decide what next steps are um after that conversation so hopefully we'll be more informed excellent I think Mike Mike wants to say something too thank you thank you mayor council U Julie and Lauren summarized it but I just I'm G to go back just real quickly to I think a point Alex made or a question Alex had earlier just on timing and I think Kimberly and I also talked about this earlier today just I think for everyone's benefit and I think we'll cover this in July as well when you think about doing a zoning code update and just the timing of the this and how it aligns with the the comp plan uh future comp plan so it's you know 2024 and I think you heard tonight it could take 12 to 18 months to go through a zoning rewrite and I I think I'm least W watching body language in the room that this is probably the path that we're on for all the reasons we've talked about so if you think about starting that process we're going to get us into if we do start in 20 2026 the next comp plan update is 2028 um and so starting for that comp plan process we'll start that in 2026 MH and so that's a two-year process to get to a count Plan update in 2028 I think at that point um going through this big rewrite right now does make a lot of sense and perhaps you can just touch on that real quick why it makes sense to do that today because then going through a comp plan rewrite in 20 starting in 2026 that gets completed in 2028 then I would submit that in probably 29 or 2030 we come back and do perhap a very quick Refresh on this project where you can get our comp plan all updated in 2028 come back and do some tweaking if we have to to this plan vision for the vision correct so I think that's how we see I think that kind of the timing of all that playing out right agreed absolutely very good all right thank you well thank you so much for being here thank you all we appreciate your report and um we'll take a what a 5 minute break or so and come back thank you miked up and uh welcome and and Mike I'll turn it over to you take it take care yes uh thank you Brad mayor councel um yeah Planning Commission you do not have to stay if you have other things to do but there's no secrets here so you're welcome to stay if you'd like I hope you do stay all right yeah nothing else to do yeah thank you Brad U just really gonna turn it over to Mr ode and Miss Wesley here in a second and introduce our Consultants on the project just to give you a first time bu so that's Kelly and Kelly Sarah I know just just help you out thank you I know it's it's study session so I I know you kind of get stuck in that formal mode all the time uh well thank you Kelly and Sarah will introduce our consultant and team here in a second just want to give you just a two second um intro again this is something we've been working on for a number of months and Kelly and our Consultants will get into all of that it's exciting uh I know I've talked with all of our Council as we've L up to today uh big presentation I know tonight we have a little over an hour to to go through it and we anticipate again bringing more information back to you and we'll tease out some questions throughout uh the presentation here this evening we'll have some breaks as we introduce or I say we they introduce uh the projects and the overview of really the four facilities that we'll be discussing this evening and eventually we're going to as you know Council need to get to some level decision- making about the future of all these projects and so certainly we look forward to the conversation hearing more input from you and questions that you have for staff and then we'll again we'll be looking for a direction a little bit tonight if we can and then certainly bringing more back to you here later so with that I'd like to really just turn over to Kelly and Sarah for introduction sounds good yeah if you could make the introductions for us that would be great of course and as you all know um the reason why we're here is last year early last year we uh purchased the marsh after we purchased the marsh we thought it was uh responsible to take a look at um all of our recreational facilities to determine the future uses of those so we're here tonight with the community facility study we're looking at the marsh the Willison fitness center the community center and Glen Lake Activity Center uh the city then hired hga to help us in this process so tonight we have Glenn and Nancy from hga um the way it's going to go tonight will be they'll go over a few probably about five to seven slides that talk about the study in general and then we'll get into each facility specifically so they'll have a couple slides per facility then we'll stop do some back and forth get some feedback from you all ask some questions uh and then just continue on so I will and then Kelly would it help if we went around and introduce ourselves because they weren't here when we did that sure I think that's a good idea we'll uh yes thank you we'll do that pardon me perfect we'll start with Miranda Miranda I'm an assistant city manager sorry about that Mike Funk city manager uh Deb Calbert U uh city council at large pardon us okay I'm Brad wor I'm the mayor about Che uh city council War Two KY Copley city council War four Kimberly Wilburn city council at large go ahead Dana meion Planning Commission Paul ra city council w three caty Foster wal and one all right now we'll turn it back to you y over to Glenn and Nancy go ahead excellent thank you it's great to be here this evening um I'm gonna start off with just this first topic one going over the visions and and guiding principles for this project so we started with a large core team many of folks who were in this room uh to help guide us as we looked at those four facilities um really thinking about who these facilities are going to serve making sure it's Broad group broad age demographic um and that it's needs to support your strategic Vision so thinking about cost conscious equity and um making sure it's a long-term investment uh for the city and success was really broadening the programming that's offering and making sure you're meeting the needs of residents The Guiding principles for this project were um really clear really thinking about the unique character uh that the parks offer trying to think about equitable approach so that it's not just the usual users but everyone here in the city and the folks who work here um connecting people uh to Outdoors so thinking about active living really again focused on your residents living their best life and resiliency making sure we're making long-term decisions again um we partnered with xan Associates um as part of the design team to do the community engagement and it was a very robust process we were um reaching both frequent users of these four facilities but also trying to reach those who don't come and so that really focused on um thinking about renters especially but also senior groups and making sure we were meeting people where they were at and so that showed up with six popup events which is the top bar there um and and also reaching out to some Affinity groups to amplify the message for folks to be aware of the study and to participate in the study and the results were great we got about almost 1300 um responses to the onl onine survey which is a really excellent uh response some key themes you know across all four we're really thinking about broadening the use um of programming and services offered people love what they're um participating in they want more of that as well as new offerings um broad age demographic uh trying to offer from young people to older people um broadening uh accessibility uh so that the facilities can be accessed by anyone thinking about parking as well um and you know improving the look and feel of many of those spaces so with that we're going to focus on the four individually all right so the four of course are Glen Lake Activity Center um this building here the Community Center Williston fitness center as well as the marsh we end on the marsh but starting with the Glen Lake Activity Center um we did a few things for each one of these facilities we talked to staff we um uh went through the engagement to try to get as much information as we could about how the facilities were used what was working well what wasn't working well so Glenn Lake um as you may know is currently being used as a meeting space a police substation and also maybe its primary function is storage for you know the optimists uh and some Community groups um so it's really underutilized um currently and it's dated you know was built quite a while go um the roof's ready for replacement um and so there's an opportunity there uh I'm sorry I let me talk a little bit about our some engagement findings I'm not going to go into much detail about this but um what we did learn was not a lot of people were really using Glen Lake um and when they were it was infrequently so a couple of options um Rose of the surface there one is to demolish the building remove it entirely to free up that site um perhaps for a regional skate park or some other function um option two is to actually keep the POR a portion of the building renovate it um into a a meeting room upgrade it for accessibility um and sort of to meet current code and refresh it and um demolish a portion of it the police substation the noncode compliant restrooms to make room for more um either skate park or other um Park functions and so we've got those couple of options have cost associated with them option one to demolish the building is almost $13,000 umll U to keep the building and renovate it the cost is um about $838,000 so mayor we're going to like I said we're going to just take a few slides perp then kind of you we're going to have a couple prompting questions you know basically getting your feedback on the options that we have so we really have three you know option one to remove the building option two to to you know demo building renovation or three continue as is so right we're just going to send you back a couple questions if you have questions for staff or the Consultants we Happ answer but we'd kind of like to just pause get back to you and have a quick discussion on each facility okay as we go so right now okay are there any qu um Rebecca I don't have any questions but it's a dump and we should demolish it say that again oh it's a dump I mean you drive by it and it's not an attractive looking building and it's not worth say keeping py I agree but at the same time if we were it two years or five years or whatever um because I feel like even hundred and some thousand dollars is a lot for this yeah I guess I think you know when we look at just leading it as is we can definitely do that I think until we have a project and so um you know you I don't think were in Council last year when the skate park came or was about to come to the city council so that will likely come back to the city council this year uh we do have a skate park funded in 2025 did a study as to the best location and Glen Lake was the best location for that so I think those kind of tied together but yes we we we definitely would continue we wouldn't just tear it down right now I think we would wait till we have some type of plan for the plan for it can I ask another one so then so would the skate park and all that just um even out the cost of tearing it down so it would be just like no it would still cost $100,000 to it would still cost 100,000 now we do have funds uh already funded in the CIP for 2025 for the skate part including this $112,000 we did increase that from last year into this year correct thanks Y and and one more related question I trust that the you know partial demo of the bill building and renovation at $838,000 would include a new roof for that building and I was just curious you know if we're just saying okay leave it at is but the roof's really bad we need to replace roof how much is that about I believe we had uh $775,000 allocated in 20124 we decided not to do that because the study was a promise and we would not do that until we knew what the future was yeah you know and in in term oh did you have something you know I was just going to like Rebecca did I'll share my opinion on this that you know um the I don't believe this is the highest best use of this land particularly given what we know about the skate park you know if we didn't if we didn't have an alternative I mean I know that the Optimus store things there and things and you know and when when you get rid of storage you have to find more storage so it's not like it's not without utility but but that that building is well past its useful life it's not it doesn't get much use I think I've been in there a couple times in my many years of living in minona and um it just does not get much use and so I'd say if there's that's valuable land and a great location and there are good things to do with it I my preference would be to go higher higher better use Paula and and then KY just a a question followup related um assuming that the skateboard park does go forward and we um already have funding approved for that and um we would need facilities there restroom and other facilities would it be more cost effective and better for the park design you know we could do expanded better Park design without the building there and then would it be probably it seems to me more cost effective to do something that is more contemporary design sustainable better building codes and try to rehab that old building for that purpose so if we find that we do need something later on it would probably I'm wondering if it would be more cost efficient to do that at that time working around the skate park design rather than vice versa I do you either of you want to take a stab at that and yeah one thing I would say is if it's just facilities to support a skate park it might be you know a couple of restrooms maybe a little shade structure it's going to be uh less scope than a complete renovation of you know a building that's got meeting rooms needing all the mechanical spaces as well as the restrooms and so at at worst it's probably a wash be my guess thank you but then it allows a little bit more design flexibility in terms of the skate park by demolishing yeah it does the site is rather constrained in terms of parking so yeah okay great thank you KY I just I just had a question about um like how many folks really know about the community the activity center I know I mean I lived out here and I seen it cuz my kid played baseball or whatever but I had never been in the building and recently I've got a chance to go in the building and so my question would be could it be possibly used for something else I mean I know y'all say it's like horrible and it needs to be tore down but has there been I know there's been surveys but like is it possible that it could be used for something else I mean like I can imagine things to go in that building I don't know how many other folks can imagine things but um yeah I I don't see it as it needs to be torn down um I see it as being used for something else um you know but are we Market it enough um that's my thought process yeah good question I think you know what we've typically Ed it for is just rentals so we're getting a lot of you know Boy Scout Troops and things like that that use it facility it's probably about 300 hours a year which is not much so in general the facility isn't used that much um when we did the survey we did ask about what they use it for what they would like to see uh you know our residents they what they would like to see and we just didn't really get any you know massive responses for anything specifically so um I'm sure you could use it for other things we just didn't hear um Too Much from the public on this one as far as the community engagement all right anything else all right we'll keep moving on I hope that was a little Direction all right next up well we're here uh this this uh facility the community center um as you all may know there was a project that was sort of stopped dead in its tracks when the marsh was purchased um so um when we did the assessment of this the recommendations I'm going to keep going well sorry I'm skipping ahead a little bit um the things that are working well is that it uh doesn't feel like a senior center it belongs to all sorts of different functions you know we're having a great meeting here today um it works well for events you know this space has strong rental there's great natural light in the building um way finding and accessible routes to the senior spaces has some challenges um a as do the social spaces within the lobby and so that was really the focus of that earlier project um including a a new reception desk and you'll see that the survey takeaways this is just one of the highlights you know enhancing the senior programs programming health and wellness classes um and then the kind of in third their outdoor Gathering spaces are the the things that people who use this facility would like to see enhanced and so at the um at the end of the day here um the recommendations were to um kind of stay the course and um implement the project um that was originally planned um in 2022 um and I'll show you some numbers that were have been escalated to today's dollars and then there were a couple of other options here indicated with the number four on the um on the plan diagram on the right one is the kind of skinny rectangle on the very East End of the building is to provide a more direct Lobby connection to the Glen Lake activity room currently you have to walk through the office area to get to that not a huge deal but it might be an improvement to add a new Lobby space um that could serve that space the other additional Improvement was the space right outside these doors um to create more of a lounge sort of coffee bar um area so between those two um options as well as the original improvements to wayf finding and then on the upper level I'm doing some more way finding to get people in a in a more intuitive way to the Purgatory room that's currently used for senior Fitness that's a kind of a minor um change uh in addition to the original plan to renovate the restrooms and meeting spaces on the upper level um we would just sort of stay the course with that so that is the um on the upper left here moving forward with those existing plans we've escalated those to 2025 that's the new Lobby finishes way finding renovating the restrooms and kind of refreshing the public spaces and restrooms and also meeting rooms that's $2.7 million and then those Alternatives that I mentioned the the additional Corridor um that's number one below uh we've given kind of a cost range without lacking a design we just had our cost estimator provider range so anywhere from 346,000 to $423,000 um for that addition addition um or the internal um renovation of this Lounge area Lobby Lounge area into more of a coffee bar that can be you know upwards of $15,000 so back to you mayor with kind of some of the questions you know what are you thinking and or you know we also have the option to just kind of continue to to move as is right so Council thoughts we you know just as was indicated the we had we were we had approved a project and we were moving forward with the renovation of this space to be more competitive and uh that was that was going um we were getting into that and then and then the opportunity to purchase a marsh came up and so we put that on hold to take a more holistic look so now we've got a more holistic look we're getting that report tonight but any thoughts on these options Kimberly um we had when we had our smaller presentation I had asked and I'm just wondering if it's still under consideration of moving the senior Fitness um to the marsh or you know a facility that's for like so Marsh or Williston um since that it it seems kind of odd to have Fitness classes here I mean I get that like having you know one place that's sort of considered where all the senior activities happen so anyway I guess that is is that something that's been considered and rejected or yeah you know I can take that I think that's more of an operational question and I think we have talked about that internally and so that is something that's still on the table you know that second floor talked about just way finding to get to the Purgatory Creek room I think that if the senior fitness programs were to go over to the Willison Center or communities or to the marsh I think we would probably have other uh SP other classes that would go there too so I don't know that it affected the design but I think just as we talked internally with Recreation staff I think that it was a good point and making sure that we're consolidating where we can to make sure things are efficient yes Rebecca I have a question um and then I'll give you my thoughts but I maybe we talked about this a few years ago do we think that we could raise the rental costs um once we have a little bit more of a desirable aesthetic facility yes I think we can we do um look at rental rates of uh our competitors and other cities every year to make sure we're kind of within range but knowing that our building is a little bit dated I think that if we were able to refresh that we could could bump that up definitely I mean I just think it's overdo particularly you know the restrooms um if we're I mean that would be a deterrent I think for me if I were looking at a budget place for even a budget place for a wedding I would go into those restrooms and be like I can't do it so I think we're losing and Miss opportunity and I just you know as much as I I hate to spend the money it's it's just it's tired and it needs the refresh one way or another other thoughts just Paula one quick thing um could we make this I don't know kind of a wait and see because we're getting ahead of myself with the the marsh situation this doesn't have any um options for outside funding um this is going to have to be self- financed through our you know levies and whatever um CIP whereas the marsh um has some bonding and other opportunities um for outside grants and and state grants and funding so you know could we kind of have a sliding you know let's see what happens with that and how much money that saves and then put it into some of these other projects like this which I agree with Rebecca that um could really use a refresh yes definitely an option and it's to continue as is and look at different funing we're doing some B basic cosmetic things that you know 125,000 and I think that was my idea for the coffee loung so I appreciate that that was more of a way before knowing about the marsh um you know if we could put EV Chargers where uh the marshes and those go in that would be great but my thought was to have places where people could meet and that was before the cafe opened up in the marsh um so people could have a place to meet and work while they're waiting for their cars to charge definitely yeah I think you know the community center is operating like it has been it's doing well we definitely have the option of continuing as is and or doing some minor improvements if we wanted to do that um we you're correct it is not funded we don't have funding for that project right now we would have to research that and work with our finance department and figure out what the best options would be but we could look at you know smaller Renovations I don't know if it's possible to just do one of the restrooms or some of the restrooms I'd hate to do do something and then have to come back and redo it we I'd hate to to do that but U you know we could definitely look and see if there's some smaller things that would help Mike yeah thank you br I I would just add to the whole conversation and that you know Darren Nelson sitting back here behind us a finance director there and I think as we talk through all of these matters whether it's the whether Glen Lake for example go back to the Glen Lake where if we end up raising the building that against it's a $100,000 cost we would likely weave that is into the project cost with a skate park like Kelly had mentioned uh with this cost it's currently unfunded but as we again migrate the rest of this evening into um the marsh um conversation whatever you end up deciding we should invest in that's what Darren and and I will get involved in in coming back to you with with how that gets funded and when it can get funded so these this is a bonding opportunity um just like probably mainly the marsh to any Investments that we make will require some sort of level of bond issuance and but that's the work that we'll do um between now and our next conversation is bringing back to you financing options funding sources and and how that can all happen in when there anything to add to that no other thoughts anyone um like I was saying to people I wish I wish the city could win the lottery well I got I got an um an email that said that I I do get a piece of it if I um click on this right here yeah I didn't I haven't clicked yet but I'm looking forward to that but I did get that email just right behind you so watch it I'm finding I I found in the smaller meeting that that Paula and I had with staff a little a little more helpful because there was more of a holistic not the sual you know this is what we're doing with Glen like this to me is more inter with what we want to do with the marsh and so this kind of sequential you know what do we want to do here if this was all by itself yeah whatever do do do I in my heart feel like option one makes the most sense because it's because everything's really needs updating yet um you know but I I I'm finding it hard because there there a lot of and we want to make sure that that you know as as we progress on our thoughts about the marsh that it that it's financially sustainable and um you know the our we we have a tolerant resident population but but these are these are real dollars so I mean in my heart I really do feel like you know we need the refresh the other original proposal we also this that's not that's not talking meetings but that is not I think it was it was included I think we just forgot to highlight it I apologize for that the same project essentially right yeah apologies for any confusion on that but it's the the exact same construction project y we're in a mustard yellow room so well that's really great great pan really yeah great P um yeah so anyway I I where people live so I'll I'll comment to unless I don't want to um you know I think this Pro we had a we had approved this project and we were moving forward and then and then the marsh opportunity came up and I mean I agree we have to we have to figure out how we're going to pay for this stuff I mean it's easy it's easy to want it it's much more challenging to pay for it and but but I also think that given the use of this community center and this building for all of its different purposes um we need to compete and it's a competitive world out there so you know I am supportive of option one um you know within the context of what we're going to see next because um you know we there is going to be some picking and choosing but but I really think that um you know this space is um is fundamental and and uh it it does need updating and I think we you know when I think of you know people having a wedding here and things like that and and I've had family members who've had weddings here um you know and and it's it's it's a it's a nice space but it needs it needs a needs a little bit more so I think it's a I think that would be a wise spend that would be in the public interest all right keep going all right okay we're going to move on to the Williston fitness center um what's working well there is really probably what you might expect the youth ameni Splash Pad uh the treehouse um the swim lessons that sort of thing there's a lot of members there um it's got a great tennis program um Fitness is um kind of outgrowing its space which we'll talk about a little bit some things that aren't working as well the locker rooms the um public spaces in the building um could use an upgrade um for more consistent looking feel and wayfinding too um for uh users of the building um the tennis viewing area is a little challenged and we'll talk about um the fitness space in a moment pickle ball uh came up on this uh and you'll see a potential solution for that um and parking uh parking at Wilston is really a challenge so and I want to mention this you know some of the things the city could use are some pickle ball courts indoor turf and uh gym space um and uh the some key takeaways from the engagement survey Fitness was super popular as well as the swimming programs um so Fitness Flash Pad weightlifting cardio all of that stuff was um just really really popular um there's other category there that we sort of unpack down below and that includes the more swimming um play The Treehouse the splash pad and then the sports related functions like the batting cages and the basketball uh courts are all um important to community members um and really the the suggestions were more Fitness more Fitness um improve the locker locker rooms um pickle ball U is very popular so there a lot there was a lot of um discussion about increasing access to pickle ball um and just some general comments about upgrades um it's really a familyfriendly place which differentiates it from perhaps the marsh um one of the comments um Kelly that um or observations you made during our meetings was each one of these facilities really has a different um area of focus or flavor or character um and and really could figure out how to play to those strengths and increase the programming so the the comment about senior Fitness over at the marsh was really kind of aligned with some of the discussions we had about um programming um so the recommendations for the for Willison are a bit more complex than the other projects so I'll go through it and if you have some questions go ahead and stop me um so this is a a floor plan of the building the tennis barns on the left um you'll see number seven the the uh dashed gray box on the right that's we're proposing additional parking um along the east side of the building to try to take some of the the load off of the existing parking lot um locker room Improvement I'm sorry I'll go in order number one lobby in public spaces improving way finding kind of look and feel refreshing it a new reception area that works a little bit better for patrons and for staff um expanding that um Space by um uh moving some of the offices and relocating them um to the um essentially a new floor above the existing Treehouse so a lot of these um options are kind of interrelated or M mutually exclusive but if we can steal some of that space from the offices to provide for better uh View of the tennis area that was um would address one of those comments um number two is that ex moving the office to that location above the current Treehouse location which I'll get to where the Treehouse goes in a minute um number three some rental spaces right now there's uh personal training storage um and then just a space above the Treehouse again put it uh filling in the floor there to provide some other um potential rental spaces um number four the kind of teal color the l-shape that is expanding and renovating all of the locker rooms that that's kind of a pain point for our patrons right now um the the use of the locker room so making sure that they're they're meeting the needs and then five where there's an existing um kids programming area actually converting that to be more Fitness space perhaps relocating personal training there adjacent to the current Fitness areas to the North and then six as Aquatics um we discussed expanding the splash pad area um perhaps increasing it uh its use by older older kids as well as young ones um as part of that that's the main level um the lower level is the level of the tennis Barn that's this level that I'm showing you now in this plan so 12 number 12 is the tennis Barn itself I'll start with that um the only thing we really talked about for the tennis Barn itself is adding air conditioning to just uh improve uh people's experience there um number eight improving the lobbies uh Lobby spaces similar to the lobbies up above um nine and 10 are all where the existing Treehouse is kind of expanding the party rental function of that and then adding a new Treehouse play area as part of a an addition that's indicated by this um blue bar across the the lower um end of the diagram here indicated with 11 um having that indoor play Space be a full double height space is part of a new addition to the building that could also accommodate um four pickle ball cords or perhaps two half uh basketball courts those could be flexible gym spaces so there's uh we're proposing kind of a an allart menu I'll call it of potential Renovations um to Williston that could be prioritized they could be I won't go through all of the the cost but I will uh talk about the total range of cost cost on the low end is 16 just about $16.6 million on the high end $2.2 million um so and that includes the uh building additions the including Aquatics Council comments I'll start Rebecca I mean this one really pains me because I am a Willison user and I have developed a relationship where people like to tell me about how much they need more pickle ball space and so I'll probably you know I but I am very sensitive that we can't be everything to everybody we have to be careful I mean willston is like a an reliable pair of shoes like you know you need to do something about it they it still works it's you you reach for it all the time we'll lose that if we don't keep up with it so I am so conflicted on this because I'd like to see our attention I think to the marsh and what needs to happen there but Willison is just such a great Community Asset that i' love to there's nothing here that I don't think makes sense so I'm very torn but I think in kind of the Continuum of what we need to prioritize at least for right now feels like we need to PRI put our attention towards the marsh now if there was a way that we could make it all work I I think we would just we could justify and eventually pay for itself with Willison and the use and all the extra feeds that people pay for parties and rentals and tennis and all of that I mean it's probably a good investment but I would put it probably lowest on the priority list of all the other things put other comments U py yeah um I'm not a member now but I but I was and I loved the Willison and I would go no matter what so if you touched it if you updated it I would go but if you didn't I would still go and I think that's true of a lot of the people that go there especially the fitness people um but I agree I mean it's it's needs a lot but I I it's it's I think an old shoe is a perfect way to um describe it because I'll still comfortable shoe comfortable shoes but but I mean like an old one too where it's they're they're worn out but I still wear them anyway you know what I mean I'm that way I'm gonna wear them until I can't anymore so so I love that place yeah other comments yeah I I kind of agree with with the comments that are being made I you know I'm putting it in in the context of also the public safety study I mean there are a lot of needs that talking here andone of them are and they're not going to get any cheaper either that's that's kind of the other thing we pay now or do we pay later well eventually we'll have to pay the sounds a thing you can do both yeah and so um you know in that smaller presentation it's it it it wasn't all or nothing but it was it it was more here like All or Nothing the things that are going on at the marsh can be sort of like prioritized but if we P the trigger on certain things it makes more sense to do all of it or none of it so I kind of feel like you're feeling like maybe this isn't the right time and we do what we need to do to get the March fully up and running you know more functional and more and I agree with what py said you know it's a comfortable shoe and I wear mine so you can't wear anym so I think there are a lot of things that would make life so much better for the staff for the experience walking in and the things that you're trying to accomplish and like Rebecca I also there is not anything that's like so it's very painful to like and as you know million right there and then you have you know fire stations and you know other fire I mean just the fire trucks need so much I just any other comments I was gonna say um I said this I think I said this when um Kelly and mik C showed the presentation um with Kimberly and paty I said um why can't we just get rid of all the buildings and get the P Community Center but you know we can't do that but you know I think about the expense that it's going to take to get Willison up to par and that's a that's a pretty penny you know and I I just don't think now is the time especially with the marsh um but I guess I don't know the March was an opportunity that we couldn't pass up so because that was opportunity we couldn't pass up we jumped on it but now I'm just like is it is at the cost of the realis in so um I just don't think we can do all the projects like we want to but we just can't um so yeah I guess you know we need to wait for real estem for a while because just can't I I can't see it so yeah wouldn't be comtable Paula yeah um and I thank you mayor um I appreciate all the comments and agree with many of them um I would say that I think keeping in mind the Plymouth if I'm recalling correctly from uh the mayor's comments there that was an $80 million project well I think it was 50 40 50 instruction construction was around 42 okay so then with design and everything else I knew it I knew it was 50s or so if we had 50 or 60 million dollar to spend then you know that's kind of taking care of all of these too so we would have our Plum Center I guess if we were going to do that but at the end of the day I think I agree with um with Deb it's really hard to you know look at these things because I feel at the in the back of my mind I'm always going back to the next project we're going to talk about because so much is going to of our decision making on these other projects is going to flow from what we decided side on that project so um yeah so I'm I'm going to wait and with whole comments again agree with everybody else love Wiston my kids went there kids I have parties there we you know did everything there growing up as a family and um you know trying to balance the needs of our family focused uh facility versus this new facility that's coming online that's going to be really you know kind of geared more towards our senior population which is going to be increasing um we are going to be 40% uh I think over 55 by 2028 and so um you know that that's something to keep in mind so I'll end my comment there and look forward to the next and that just gets me thinking though also we have to prepare for that it's something you know it's important but also I I do get worried that we I don't want to exclude Young either and I do want to make sure that we are paying attention however we have to remember that we just said go ahead and tear down Glen Lake and build the skate park so I feel like how many pickle ball courts could we fit in that Glen Lake Activity Center there you go the noise pollution save the day I can take my Gro marks glasses off I think the new skate parks are a little bit more curvy than okay yeah so you know to keep moving here cuz we want to get through this and we also want to get done kind of on time um you know I I'm I'm kind of working two sides of the equation here um on the one hand you know I I look at the not working well list at Williston and none of those are a big deal to me I mean you know what's not working well is not working terribly it's just not you know okay is it state-ofthe-art it's not state-ofthe-art but I'll tell you what the day we moved into the renovated Willison Center it was not state-of-the-art it's never been I mean I I feel like Willison is kind of my common man appro you know we do things you know that appeal to the Common Man in minaka we don't have to have the newest brightest and shiniest and so that's that's one part of me and but then the other part of it is that question of who do we want to really attract I mean we've got plenty of old people I'm one of them we don't need more old people but we're going to get them but we do need more young people and so and so when when I look at strategically you know where are we better investing our money we're probably better off investing your money in our young population to be attractive than we are to um investing into getting more people that look like me but so you know after having said that I I I am not compelled right now to spend a lot of money on Willison I'm just not but to look at this pragmatically I think that the I mean if we were going to build a new facility from scratch would we build it there the answer is no the site's too small it's got too many problems so why would we expand the footprint there I mean pickle Ball's nice we like it it does not belong number nine get rid of it I mean if we take number nine off um 20 million doll project becomes a $10 million project now I'm not saying we should spend $10 million on it but you know let's make sure what we do passes the smell test spending $20 million on this location is a mistake and I wouldn't do it adding cutting that Hill down to add parking shame on us I mean we you know that is a bad idea we need to be pragmatic and we need to spend money like it's hard to get and and so and and so I think you know I think we have to consider who our target audience is but we have to make sure that the improvements we make are not being made for the sake of improvement you know air conditioning that Barn that's a dumb idea that's a million bucks why would we do that if people want you know people play tennis outside when it's 90 degrees all the time if they you know you know maybe we don't rent all of our courts every day of the year I think that's smarter than spending a million bucks to air conditioning a barn that's going to leak like a siiv so you know I just think we have to be very practical as we look at this and I think you know I think williston's I mean Willis's popular if it sucked it wouldn't be popular um can we I think we can be smart I think there are some improvements that we can make but you know the fact that you can't watch Tennis very conveniently big deal I mean you know we could put closes T at TV and have have people watch it elsewhere I mean we just some of these things are nice to have but are just not essential and I don't think Williston needs a lot of improvement I think it could use some refreshing but you know I I remember what the locker rooms used to look like and so so I mean and they were kind of scary I think I think are they great now knowing they're a little cozy at times but you know what I I I don't think Willison is on life support I think williston's in good space I I think we I think I would drop Willison down but recognize that when we're going to do something there let's look let's look at that target audience um that that we want to attract and do it in a way that's going to be attractive to um um that younger demographic so not to beat up anybody but I just think you know I I just think that this one doesn't pass the smell test in terms of the the order of magnitude of the expenditures for what we would really get and I just don't think the location is good enough to expand it I think we can we can improve it but I would not expand that footprint one square foot personal opinion Mike oh I think Kimberly has that oh go ahead Kimberly yeah I'm sorry I was I was on I was I was going there for a while excuse me so um I had kind of joked with Kelly like if it was up to me I'd build a Skyway from Williston to to the community center to to the marsh and just blow up the budget completely but um so you did wi that we were wondering who won that lottery ticket right um but I mean I don't have much to ask to add I would also put Williston down on the list of priorities but if Mr Nelson comes back to us and says you know I I I'm a genius million I found $20 million got it at 1% well I found 80 million we can do everything you know I wouldn't say no so um but yeah I had 100 Grand over here but it's gone oh someone I think I ate it um so yeah I mean I I'm not gonna if you know when when you come back with the budgetary things if there are maybe some things we can do at Williston and not others you know we can consider that but yes and then I have to say I think this is good feedback on Willison hope think we got some good sense of where council's at on it U again we'll we'll bring back um some options for you to think about in terms of Willison but I do hear it's it's a lower priority but if there's an I think there I hear there's an appetite to maybe look at doing some things which is important I mean Wilson's been very successful U we do have 10,000 members and we want to make smart Investments so we keep 10,000 members right we don't want to start sliding members because we're not keeping up with some some important Essentials so I think we have that in we have your comments and I think we're pretty good unless there's others on Williston is uniquely minat tanka and not in a bad way and I hope that I hope the impression is not that we don't want to keep I mean we want to keep spending money willston is self-sufficient for the most part and we need to take that into account as a council when we're talking about of course it needs what it needs but an infusion of capital is hard to stomach right now yeah and so we got 15 or so minutes to hear about the marsh so let's rock and roll great segue okay so the marsh as you all know is super unique facility um really can because of its well health and wellness focus it really sets it apart from other other facilities certainly in any other municipality um but as you'll see with there are some options that we've developed that you you've seen in the report um to try to maximize its use um what's working well currently um the programming is in high demand U it's got the seniors and adult programming the informal social space in the building you know regardless of whether you may think it's dated which I would agree with that um it works really well it works well for its function it's got great connection to the outdoors the adjacent landscape and the trails I'm kind of going back to some of the overarching vision um what's not um working well is really it's sort of its age um you know some of the spaces are underutilized um could use code code upgrades like restroom spaces that sort of thing um the the ability to do swim lessons is somewhat limited here which may or may not uh matter from a programming standpoint there's some weird things like the guest rooms and the kind of retreat center that you know leave us scratching our heads a little bit for a public facility but I think we've got some some options um to share with you that makees some sense out of that uh the takeaways a lot of the survey respondents were members there and very as you may know um love the the love the marsh are really motivated um to keep the the unique programming there um intact the spa services um improvements to the walking Track were something that were mentioned as as something that they'd be in favor of um connecting to the trails uh again that Outdoor Connection to that landscape was really important important um and then the types of programming events and services that um folks would like to see more of at the marsh or or continue to see yoga and meditation functional fitness classes for seniors um more Spa offerings uh health related educational seminars and events those are all things that are really unique to the marsh that are um important to the survey respondents um the restaurant and having a food service option there was uh mentioned as as important um expanding programming there was desired as well um and again sort of a refresh so we took all of that feedback and came up with a few options that I'll I'll go through in a little bit more detail but high level option one is to just refresh what's there new finishes keep it as is just upgrade the finishes um to refresh it option two is to do that refresh but then also look at the kinds of Renovations that are a little bit more heavy that would allow for expanded programming to really amp up the unique offerings there and then the third is to um add to the building add um an event Pavilion to um help expand programming especially this social Gathering and events aspect of them um and providing that um infrastructure to the west of the building and then of course the other option would be uh to sell the property option one I mentioned the interior refresh we'll call it that includes deferred maintenance items that are already sort of in the CIP um things like hbac uh systems the exterior of the building roofing the sighting this is you know repainting things having new ceilings lighting mill work cabinets um Furniture um AV technology maintaining the pools it's really just taking what's there and um giving it uh a refresh um option two includes that builds on that option but then um starts to make a few more um larger renovation moves um one is to expand the conference center on the upper level above the spa functionality um the second is to um upgrade the spa spaces and expand them to the exterior um to further connect the interior programming to the exterior um relocating the offices to make room for an expanded um restaurant uh especially a dining room uh to create more of a destination um restaurant in that location um and then renovations to upgrade with heavier renovation will require um uh Code Compliance so things like um an elevator that goes up to the upper level walking Track those sort of things would be included um in option too so on the plan this is the the lower level so um if you're familiar with the marsh you come in at the main level and then there's a lower level and there's also an upper level um on the lower level that's where the fitness areas the pools um the locker rooms that we're um um proposing as part of option two we would reconfigure them to meet code to sort of upgrade them generally to add more inclusive locker room spaces um as well as family locker room so um to the to the locker room area um and then where the current Physical Therapy Suite is upgrading that um lease space um and also connecting that to the exterior um towards the north um we're proposing adding a a deck that would include a couple of hot tubs saunas that could be rented um similar to what you're doing now I forget the name of the beach Shady Oak Beach the Shady Oak Beach um as well as some plunge pools to go along with those saas to expand B on that um Spa experience on the main level of the building on the East End in the in the pink upgrading all of those spa uh spaces just you know um perhaps re re uh organizing them adding some more specialty services but just upgrades generally um relocating the offices as I I mentioned from where they're currently at if you're familiar is kind of behind the restaurant um moving those more front and center to where the current um uh child watch area is or kids classroom um so the offices would would be there and then that would also serve as a storefront for rentals bikes um snowshoes perhaps in the winter um really to try to tie the the building to the trail um and then of course increasing the the rent the restaurant space on this level and then on the upper level I mentioned um uh expanding the elevator to serve this walking Track track level so of course um I should repeat that all of the finishes throughout the building um in addition to the things that I'm pointing out would be um upgraded as part of this um but the main thing on the upper level is the event space so if you're familiar with the dragon room really reorganizing that whole level keeping the dragon room intact but creating a large event Lobby to the north that opens towards the marshy landscape that could also serve for larger events even in concert if you could open up the whole drag won room and have you know a large wedding or some sort of event there um and also providing some infrastructure like Med some smaller meeting rooms a green room restrooms to serve that event space so really a a a completely new U Conference Center Retreat Center um with a connection a stair you may have noticed there's a kind of in light gray a stair in the upper corner of the building we're proposing connecting all of those levels so that a spa um could be connected to an event imagine like you have a wedding that has you know access to the spa that sort of thing to try to start to knit those program potentials together so that's option two option three as I mentioned is adding on to the building um to the West uh there's a little bit of property as you'll see momentarily there are some real constraints at the marsh in terms of setbacks from the wetlands the flood plane as well as parking on that site and we actually studied early on like could we put a pickle ball gym there could we do an indoor play area there we didn't want to necessarily compete with Willison but we wanted to kind of test the site and really none of those things fit on this site based on the constraints but where we did land was an event Pavilion something that could really um marry well with the kinds of programming that exist there now in terms of events and other types of programming as well as the restaurant um to just expand what's what's uh what you're able to do there I know this is kind of a complicated site plan but you can start to see the marsh is I don't if I can point with this thing no the marshes along the bottom of the the building is is here oh yeah there we go um the parking lot kind of stretches out along minetonka Boulevard um we're proposing with a new addition we would would need some new parking so there's a potential for parking kind of at either end so we're using this par um to the west of the uh existing part the city own parcel as part of that potential expansion that we would need parking for this is a blowup uh plan of the Pavilion most of it is open air sheltered seating in a vent space that's in the kind of light yellow colored uh color there we can seat you know I don't know roughly 120 um seats there at at tables um a concessions and restant room and storage or rental storage area that would be enclosed spaces that also would have a connection to the restaurant so the perhaps the restaurant could run that concessions and you know have uh service Outdoors or that could be a separate rental you know kind of to be determined but that connection would make both of those things possible and that flexibility possible um here you can really see the flood plane lines the 100 year and 500y year flood plane and the line of the the Wetland those are a real constraint on what can actually be built on the site so that's a little bit about that Pavilion and this is uh a rendering of what that could look like um so the Pavilion is here on the right it's sort of an open structure you can see some seating um and a connection to the the I always forget what it's called the Moon Moon Moon Terrace um that's part of the restaurant seating now so all that could be interconnected and we're showing a gable roof that would just sort of Riff Off of the existing building and and fit in nicely there but all of this would sort of look out towards that um landscape to the north so from a cost standpoint the refresh uh option one and that is a $6.9 million of new work as well as the Deferred maintenance that that's already planned for over the next 10 years um option two would include the cost of option one um as well as add some cost for the more heavy renovation um so the range there is uh about 13.4 million to $17.9 million for option two I'm remember that does include option one and then option three the addition would be another either 4.9 to 5.9 uh million do uh for that structure and then of course the option for would be to um sell the property very good so Council options one through four what what are your thoughts or one or one through three I think is really what we're looking for comments Rebecca um I mean I I think it the marsh is a tremendous asset I I you know I have really I I think it's important to make it clear that I've kept my mind open on this property since October of 2022 because I just didn't know you know and I've been watching the numbers grow I've been watching the community response um space for employees it has alleviated some pressure on there um I'm really impressed with the growth considering the condition of the space and kind of the partially open feel that certain aspects have so I you know I'm prepared in my opinion to remove sell the property as an option that's not an and from my perspective an option I love the Pavilion option um it reminds me of there's a really cool Pavilion at madens that they is like almost year round and they've they've heat they've got heaters very cool I just don't think I think we've got some similar space that we've developed with Ridell Commons and you know I again if we had a blank check I love it but I think we have to show some restraint here however I think option two would have a payback I I think we're closer to cash flowing the property especially if we take into account from an accounting perspective the business use of the city's use of that space um the park recreation Department's officing there um so I think with just amplifying it getting some more revenue streams in there with the spa maybe the basement Spa scenario which allows us to get um maybe a higher level of membership people paying and we can maybe get some of these Senor seniors to open their wallets for when they go there um rather than the the silver sneakers so I'm I'm very much in favor of option two I think it's a good use of resources and a and probably a payback yeah I would say I agree with everything that Rea said and I also think about you know we we were under pooled we we probably still are under pooed but we got two pools one pool would have cost $25 million at the very least and we got the whole for under $5 million um you know with everything in it and all of the other things so in terms of you know cash flow payback like like was the was the investment worth it I mean to me that's a no-brainer I at this points off the table for me the I agree that the the public feedback is extraordinarily positive I uh write to me you know when they when they see me at the store or whatever they literally go out of their way to thank me about the marsh and um so I just think it's a wonderful Community Asset my feeling about vilon is my understanding in our in our meeting the other day about it was that is something that we can revisit later out of all of the things that we've been considering this is this is less of an All or Nothing the way it sort of was with with you know some of the things that will has done and it is super cool it's just when I think about again the other Capital expenditures that we are looking at for the city and I think Public Safety is you know literally job number one um we do have to show some restraint so I'm very in favor of option number two keeping the option of option number three open in the future because I think that that the whole idea is to to sort of maximize use and also get some cash flow and if we build up membership build up visitors we might be able to you know make a case for option number three and and it might not be that hard to do of the Reas you know why it was so worth it is I mean just the pools alone so heck of the deal I mean because 18 million I mean frankly 24 million is still less than it would have been to build yeah you're right does anyone have anything they'd like to add KY and Kimberly I was going to say um I agree with everything that was said um however I do like option number three but I know again you know we were talking about dollars um we got to be mindful of that so I think um like Deb said just keeping it on a table for the future but also as um we talk about um doing renovation and I continue to think about the inclusiveness in this building um I still when I go visit it or the the few times I have I just don't feel the inclusiveness in this building this space and so as we continue to expand I'm constantly thinking about that that's that's always going to be a priority of M and I just don't see it and I'm really concerned about the investment that we're doing in our buildings all across minona but I'm I'm I'm still really concerned about the inclusiveness for everyone because I'm not seeing it Kimberly um yeah so my my thought and like the discussion I had with Mike today is I am in favor of keeping the marsh if we can get to a point where we're breaking even or making money so for me option four is not on the table now but like you know if we get four or five years down the road and I'm still here um and it and it's still losing money then I think you know we might have to revisit if is it if is it a facility we want to keep um and is the is the thought on the Pavilion that that would also be a space that could be a rental a revenue generator so I guess I would like to hear I know um Mike was saying that that you think that if we do option two that we would be able to to increase revenues and get to a point where again where we're breaking even um I would like to see what the what the analysis is is with adding The Pavilion into that if so I would just like to see those numbers and what you think would how that would work out as far as breaking even in Timeline comment any other comments go ahead Paula just real quick um yeah thank you for this and I AG I think we need to keep the Mars such a unique amenity that sets us apart from all the other communities in the region or in our locality so I think that's you know a no-brainer for all the reasons that have already set been set up as well as that I was a little confused by the pro fora so I also agree that um it would be nice to have um you know this is a basically doing the the option would be additional 20 to 25% cost um what is that going to mean in terms of do we goild from my understanding was a little different I thought that we would be at best break even um with just the renovation but that um a pavilion which would be an additional rental event space which again would be pretty unique especially as we see the amount of church weddings going down the amount of um Events Center W wedings like this going way up um you know what that would mean in terms of the the cash flow difference so just amplifying that I would also like to see that because I think if we invest a little bit money now because construction cost will probably only go up in the next three to four years are we better off biting taking the biting the whole Apple now and getting that and getting that Rue stream sooner rather than waiting py um yeah I I agree that my first thought was like when we talk about option four selling the property um and like to be clear with the staff or something like like let's keep let's is is let's take it off of the options or not you know what I mean like it does feel like that's kind of something that even um like maybe we were talking about the staff like don't know if they have a job or not and so like it sounds like table at least for five years and if we could just be clear about that I think that would um it would it would ease I mean it would just clear but also Paul all right anyone else got a couple of comments um you know I would take the sell of property off the off the table um I don't think it's I don't think it's seriously under consideration now um and given the public support that we've had I don't think we need to leave it there um you know I think I think that when when a city owns buildings and property the decision can be made to sell something at any time but based on my time around cities don't sell things they buy things and you know so I think we should just take it off and dispense with this idea that we're going to sell it we're not going to sell it um the um as I told in my conversations earlier with um with the staff you know I think option two is what makes the most sense but I do like option three but I would also really be interested in corporate support you know private private sector um find a way to get it paid for um naming rights I mean who knows I think I think if we got creative and Innovative we could find another way to get that built and paid for um without having to ask the taxpayer for for taxpayer dollars on that so you know that's how I would I would say option two is what needs to be done um option three is something you know and it was and the way it was constructed it was not like oh well you know it's All or Nothing um you know but keep that in the back of our mind um I I think expanding to the West like that uh but let's look let's find a creative way to pay for it and and not expect the taxpayer to pay for it I think that is is um attractive to me and then the other the only closing comment I want to make is that Willis I mean uh the Willison Center is really unique in that it cash flows most facilities like that in most cities I mean if we did a survey I'll bet 90% of them around the country do not cash flow Willison is very unique okay so as we look at at the marsh I'm want to make it cash flow too but I don't want to put such a big hurdle on the marsh that that we have an unrealistic expectation um because if the marsh is like 90% of the facilities in the country it may not cash flow but it still may be in the public it still likely will be in the public interest because of the many the amenity it represents at the same time I I I really respect um I think diversifying the utilization of the marsh is really needs to be a goal that we have um because um you know I don't you know I don't want it to I don't want the I don't want Williston and the marsh to be kind of two separate worlds I want it to be that you know we have we have things that meet different needs and people can use them both and um or or one or both or whatever and you know and I think we really want to um have a a a diverse uh population of uh people using our facilities I think that's important important and that's not just those two facilities that's that's all of our facilities I mean we want to be a welcoming and open place and and we want our facilities to be used by by both our residents but also people from the region and uh we want everyone to feel welcome here so Mike do you have any anything else from us is that helpful I'm going for the direction I appreciate that Mike if you have closing comments no I think this is extremely helpful mayor and Council appreciate your time tonight on on this I think I think Kelly said it well I think we've got good good feedback from you uh our next step is to bring this conversation back because again this is tonight was just the first night of it and so we'll have more conversation be working with our staff both Kelly and uh Daren certainly the financing pieces is very important so we we'll plan to bring back to you I I think Loosely we're saying next study session so may uh we do have some time built into our may study session we'll bring more information back to you um more consider a and then we'll go from there but I think we have what we're looking for so thank you all right thanks Mike and then I think the next thing up is our look well you covered next meeting but yeah next meeting we'll go to the next agenda item and be done may study session topics at time yeah thank you well done it's a good report nice process yeah all right so as I just mentioned may study session I have to look at the other agenda items quickly oh yeah so uh May yes so we will be back with the budget kickoff so 2025 budget kickoff so we'll do some uh preliminary uh discussions and look for your feedback for 2025 uh we anticipate having the community survey results as well so Peter Leatherman should be here uh that survey is in in its uh I think final stages and I think they're in their final stages of collecting the data and that presentation will come forward that all wraps in nicely then as we bring back facilities that fits into budget and survey and we'll start mapping all of this out next month all right all right thanks thank you any last comments anyone thank you all have a good night thank you