[Music] this is a joint city council and parkboard study session and tour today is Wednesday September 4th 2024 and um I will call the meeting to order and then I will turn it over to our parkboard chair and then we'll do introductions and and take it from there so please all right uh well let's go ahead and start with introductions we'll start over here and just work our way around Park and trail project manager Public Works Darren Allon Street park operations manager Public Works city council work paty Foster Bolton city council W one Kimberly Wilburn city council at large de caler city council at large Rebecca sha city council W two Brad woron mayor Chris Wall parkboard chair Ben Jacobs parkboard Cory by parkboard Dave Ingraham parkboard Ann Hanley parkboard Katie Suki parkboard Mike Punk city manager Mara Dam assistant city manager Kelly o Recreation director Sarah Westy assistant Recreation director Jesse squo program manager Recreation Kathy Klein Recreation administrative coordinator green hee City attorney Hannibal Hayes City Forester will Manchester Public Works director name Heather Hol Cindy Iden Eric morrer resident of minaka Angela morera resident of minona Dane chromer resident min and Mark volunteer Eric extran minaka resident and lone Lake Park Trail Steward Paul laer minaka resident and Mark volunteer Andrew Jennings resident of minona everyone all right take it let's go ahead and start with the business items EXs information there's for tonight's agenda that was sent out earlier by staff there agenda in your isake trcs there was a submitted to the park board and city council and that was in your original packet agenda relates to responses that staff has prepared for the person that crafted the letter so that is in your agenda and that has been sent to the that individual so we want to make sure that you're aware that those questions were answered okay thank thank you thank you Sher we'll get into it uh just for everybody's knowledge tonight we have three business items after here then we go out and take a tour we'll tour at three different sites so ideally we're we're in here for about an hour or an hour and 15 minutes then we uh hit the bus and and go tour some sites so with that we'll get into the business items the first business item is uh a which is Lone Lake Park multiuse mountain bike trail metrics and Sarah's going to take that one good evening Council and Park Board um I was going to give a little bit of background on this item I think everyone has heard this presentation except for a couple new council members so the background on the metrics report is this uh project was approved by Council in August of 2019 um during that appr approval process the council requested that staff report back it was a controversial project and they said why don't you come back and tell us um how it's going so that's how we came up with these metrics we sat down with some Mor Representatives Friends of the lon Lake Park rep and came up with the metrics that you see in the report and then also each year we've sent them a draft prior to it coming to you so they can see the draft say this is going to the Joint meeting and get some eyes on it before which triggered some of the questions that you saw which we did go ahead and just answer in the addendum so this is our fourth year of reporting on the trail the report has four sections um and I will say I'm going to keep this brief um last year we reported on it asked you want us to keep doing this and the response was keep doing the report put it in more as than an information item and give us a brief overview so this will be a brief overview tonight um so it includes Trail use Trail impacts advocacy and engagement in general Park monitoring so I'm not going to go through the report in detail just pull out a few highlights so over the last year so we're looking from August of last year through July we were open 198 days it was actually less than the prior year if you remember our winter and our spring this year no snow which means you can't really be on dirt because it's wet in the winter but no snow to ride on so there wasn't a lot of winter riding but really heavy riding last fall we're seeing the team that's when the the high school teams um are out riding more often and then again we didn't have any snowshoers reported because there was no snow on the ground um really the big thing we want to highlight out of this report is we still have fantastic volunteerism from Mor we've got a few Mor reps in the room um they're really committed they've been committed from day one that hasn't really dropped off and so we've got a really good group um that are volunteering you can see they put in over 386 hours on maintenance and management and then once every month in the summer in the spring through fall they do restoration uh once a month on Tuesdays as well so you can see that's a really large value in volunteerism over $177,000 value so we're very thankful to our Mor volunteers and um kind of the robust community that they've built and then that final section in the report um we did do a trail update it's included in your report if you'd like to read that from the city Forester um questions about the rusty patch Mumble be as far as part of the report we were required to do a survey for the first three years which we did and we've completed um and then we were hoping to get somebody in place to contract to do that this year and we weren't able to secure one so that would be a question if we continue this report do you want us to go ahead and F find funding to Contin continue surveying the be and that is all I've got for this so what I'll do is turn it back to you if you have any comments or questions on the full report we'd be happy to answer questions Jesse's here as well to help answer go ahead I just a really quick comment I you know I I think this is useful I'm very appreciative I I would say appreciative obviously to Mor and I know and I've heard that there's been a lot much more coordination this year with the friends as well and that's great to hear and as always we're appreciative of the work that they're doing at Lon Lake Park as well I'm not sure that this as an agenda item is the is necessary going forward I'm not sure it's the most efficient use of our time I think it's valuable information in some capacity maybe with the one pager report kind of the snapshot of users and volunteer hours those types of things but I guess my opinion would be you know we've got robust agendas and stf's got a lot of work and maybe this intense of a report and this continuing to be agenda item given that it's been fairly um non-eventful it I would propose that we not continue this in this way would it be acceptable to you if it was just to the parkboard and you didn't have to listen I don't want you know I I certainly don't want to I wouldn't want to step on the toes of what the park board is asking for I mean I that would be a conversation for you folks um and and with input from your you know staff Lea on I don't I don't want to say I don't care but I certainly respect there may be information that you would you all would want um ju I'm just curious uh significant increase in hikers Runners and zero on snow shes I understand why zero on snow shes um is that the increase uh because I can't remember I was always there maybe illegally uh but in the winter did the hikers went up because snowshoeing you know they weren't snowshoeing they're just hiking how do how do your accounts work yeah and if you go in the if you look at the addendum we explain a a little more in detail how we do the metrics and how it's changed over the years it's coming from straa data yeah so I don't know if it was more I'd have to look at the the actual report on what time of year the hikers were increased do you remember top your tried to figure that out it was a little hard cuz the year-over-year the the the the time periods reported last year were different than the time I was just curious not a big deal and the only other thing I was going to comment is um I'm over there probably three times a week hiking I don't don't mountain bike and I uh you know we build it as a multi-use trail and I and I can attest the fact it does work as a multi-use trail I mean I've uh and I think I've seen more runners hikers this year than prior years and I've never had an issue with biker they're always been very respectful I I try to be really careful but even so I mean never had an issue so it's a it is it is a multi-use trailing hopefully this winter we will have snow for snow sh so hopefully thanks you know I'll just offer a comment too I think you know I I I think this has been um you know a significant project and it certainly was um a challenging project from you know there are a lot of different opinions we've got other things you know that you all the park board is dealing with that are going to have you know um multiple opinions on and and I think having a summary report like this is great but I don't think it I agree with Rebecca that does it really need to be an agenda item I think if we get a summary in in the park board if they want to look at it a bit more detail makes makes sense but I but I also think there's this whole aspect of okay we really debated this um you know know we we there were um split opinions and so forth but but as I was reading this and looking at the detail as we we talk about okay well how many trees died and why did they die and this and that you know we we've gone through we are having climate change um we there are so many things that are so many variables that in a lot of cases we're we're trying to guess and I don't I don't think micromanaging the the pro the project and with a rearview mirror is kind of really what we want to do I would like a summary report because this was a major initiative and uh we shouldn't lose sight of that but I also kind of want to let staff get on to do their job because we've got other projects that are going to be divisive and challenging and are going to require staff time and STA and staff effort and so I want to contextualize this in the right way is it important yes it is do I need to micromanage no I don't and I don't think there are many people in this room that need to we don't want to micromanage it we want the information and then let's move forward decisions have been made one person's opinion oh go ahead D yeah I would just say that um there's such great information here and I I agree with the comments that have been um made so far I do um I think some of the most helpful is really the vol some of the most helpful information is the volunteer time and what they do because there's so much work to do there and um I think one of my uh my my curiosity was piqued because it does say that you know the uh mountain bike teams from the high schools don't practice there because there's a size restriction on how many people and I don't know how big the mountain bike Team are but um you know if it's something that we can accommodate by a tweak of numbers like if it's just a question of one or two people and they can you know use it I don't know um that that was just one comment that came to mind if it's a if it's a much bigger I have no idea how big the teams are um but since the minaka students are the ones that kind of spearheaded the entire effort um you know I totally understand why the the numbers are um limited because I think it would get dangerous and a little crowded um if you had a lot of bikers at the same time um just as pardon me just as an FYI the in the addendum the first question has to do with that looks like each of these teams have over 70 kids so it's I mean to me that I can see where that would get unwieldy and we clearly want to stay safe but y again I don't want I don't want to I just don't know if there's like you know I don't know if there's group like practice groups you know like there would be in another you know like there would be in another sport that was my only thing is that if they break up into smaller groups to practice so um uh but anyway um basically I agree you know there's a lot of work that goes into this and I think you know if we have some significant tree die off and it isn't from something obvious like Emerald ashor or um you know the things that that so many of our trees are dying of I think you know as we do you know our observation that would be important to note otherwise you know I think I think we've done our due diligence and I you know I appreciate the volunteer work and I just hope it continues and I think it will I think theyve Mars Dem demonstrated that um they're committed and um and I just really appreciate all that work because um there there's a lot of work to do and uh they help get it done hi yes um I agree with most of what was said but I think that um again we can leave most of this I mean as somebody who's com in at the tail end of this um you know probably at the staff level I wouldn't mind seeing it as a consent agenda and also to really Express appreciation for the volunteer hours of both of the groups involved um I think it's important to recognize uh that and you know hopefully it's not too much of a an effort to kind of log those hours in that effort I think it's important to you know kind of recognize and celebrate that for the value that it's bringing to the community um but also I think you know this level of detail and looking backwards is maybe from my point of view is a new you know I'm not sure I'm kind of scratching my head a little bit about why why this would continue to be necessary it's a decision that's been made um I think it can stay at the staff level if there are any issues and I'm happy to hear about it but otherwise you know uh I think as been said we have a pretty robust agenda and things to read and uh I'm not sure this is uh you know going forward is going to be the best use of our time so as much as I appreciate all of the work and the importance of this so I I I would agree with what's been said previously thanks and um I'm I'm happy to get the information if it's not an agenda item but it's just provided to us that's fine but I find it interesting and I couldn't find the agenda that talked about the parking lot surveys so I don't know if I'm having email problems or maybe somebody can just parking lot send it to me well it's said that about how the counts were done oh I couldn't find that yeah it's at the end it's at the end at the end of the not today there's a reference to it which I couldn't find but um but oh all right I will look and I legislate I number three sorry for my that's okay any El want to at this point okay chair and mayor maybe I'll just add maybe maybe a a suggestion in the city manager can chinman too would be maybe uh staff can work with the the park board to see what information they'd like we can present that as an information item to them and then work with the city manager to provide an update to the to the Council on an annual basis okay is that a fair assessment just yeah I would concur with uh with Mr OD that we can start with the park board Mr OD and his team bring reports to the park board throughout the year I think you report on number of number of matters like graze Bay Marina operations you talk about programming and so I think this could be again woven into what the park board discusses and then once it goes to the park board I can work with Mr OD and then on the heels of that bringing a summary to the council sounds good all right yeah okay thank you chair we will move on uh our second business item is the Purgatory Park master plan implementation and Citywide dog strategy and Mr kka will take that thank you very much mayor parkboard city council good to be here tonight um so I'm going to paint a little bit of a background just to remind everybody how we got here so um the Purgatory Park master plan was part of um a process laid out in our post pant plan our parks open space and trails plan this is 15 20 years of Road mapping for planning and try to prioritize improvements for our Park system Purgatory Park was identified as the the park to start this process and back on June 24th the city council adopted the master plan document created um so as part of the master planning process we identified the park as a popular Regional destination for on leash and offleash dogs and their Associated humans um the public feedback identified a divide between those that feel that the offleash dogs limit their enjoyment of the park and those that see that current usage as an appropriate use of public open space and valuable to their quality of life the master plan identified a variety of short-term recommendations that were approved as part of that process and they include um updating and expanding signage in the park to um more clearly and concisely convey the current park rules and ordinances related to offleash dogs um to better Define the areas of the park where offleash activity is currently uh permissible um we would use maps and other visual cues to identify those features um including fencing and vegetation a variety of options to sort of limit those interactions as best as possible unwanted interactions um we would look to address areas where um the soil is degraded by heavy foot traffic both human and dog um and identify add additional maintenance of repair that may be needed and add additional pet waste stations throughout the park to make sure folks have uh plenty of opportunity to not have to carry around that bag for too long um we will be taking these first steps and and presenting drafts of these elements to the park board later this fall with that said one identified Next Step would be uh um tackling this comprehensive Citywide dog strategy so this would go beyond patory Park potentially so um just to clarify some of the concerns we've heard was um clarification around the ordinance language and there being some vagaries in there um challenges with enforcement of those ordinances and park rules and general concern for Public Safety the need to reduce these unwanted interactions between Park goers and offleash dogs and the need for other Park amentities that would be considered dog friendly to um assist those folks with the furry friends so we've developed this range of options for developing a city-wide dog strategy I'm going to read through these um they're sort of on a bit of a gradient so the first one staff developed this would be a staff-led development of an updated ordinance language and park regulations consistent with other adjacent cities um along along with plans to include dogf friendly Park amenities throughout our Park system number two consult consult with the public staff L development of updated ordinance and park regulation language um and then go to a gathering feed public feedback process on these prop proposed ordinance and park regulation updates also including plans for dog friendly Park amenities and third partnering with a community workg group and convening this workg group that would consist of interested and affected residents um to collaboratively develop um sort of two op options here 3A ordinance Park regulation updates and plans for dog friendly Park amenities including potential location options or 3B having this community work group develop plans for dog friendly Park amenities including location options without the ordinance and park regulation language so a little more specifics about options one and two the staff developed um we would convene a cross functional team including um Public Safety Public Works um recreation park maintenance folks to draft updated ordinance language and plans for dog friendly amenities throughout our Park system the city council would then introduce that ordinance followed by public comment period on minetonka matters for feedback and questions from residents and then finally the adoption of those approved ordinance changes option two would be consult with the public so again convening that cross functional team Public Safety Etc um to draft these updated ordinance language and plans for dog friendly Park amenities we would then put that out to the public and gather public feedback on those items generated by by by that staff team and finally summarize that public feedback prior to introduction of the revised ordinance language and then option three the resident Community work group um this would be comprised of 9 to 15 interested residents um the mission here would be to develop recommendations regarding the Citywide dog strategy including location options this would be a cross-section ofo appointed individuals um there could be an option for a city council a parkboard representatives to serve as chairperson on this work group um there'd be representatives from City staff including parks and Public Safety and we would leverage assistance from experts in inclusive and effective Community engagement the goal here would be to implement Citywide dog strategy by Spring of 2025 when leaves come out again and we're entering that that offleash dog season so with that said questions feedback and ultimately what we're asking you tonight is what of these options or some permeation of all of them or potentially things we left off would be preferred thank you yes um thank you for the presentation could you tell me what the timeline is for getting clarified signage in purgatory park right now so we are going to start to draft the those signs and present those to the park board I almost put October in here October November and then it would be a relatively short turnaround to get those signs out in the field so this fall prior to snowfly ideally yeah I I will say I feel pretty strongly about this probably more strongly about this than I feel I felt about a lot of things in a long time um I think it would be irresponsible of us as a council to take the issue of do the dog ordinance and put it in front of nine or 15 residents who are volunteers and put them in the line of fire and to face what the parkboard faced um earlier in the year during that meeting I I don't see a way that we can address the ordinance without in in that manner without putting Volunteers in a really terrible position and so I think a hybrid of option one and option three would be most appropriate I think we need to address the ordinance it's unsafe public safety can't enforce the ordinance we're going to do all these signs and make all these accommodations based on this current crappy ordinance that we have and then change the ordinance or make these new I mean I think the order of operations is a little out of whx I think we need to address the ordinance right away I think we should put a work group together to address what are we going to do what's our dog plan outside of what our responsibility and staff's responsibility is to deal with the ordinance and try not to duplicate efforts by and and I get that the plan set this out I'm I'm kind of deviating a little bit but I think we could be more efficient by dealing with the ordinance if quickly and and have whatever public feedback that we need to have but do that just like we did with garbage cans and and parking and then um figure out what to do with dogs and a more um from the amenity perspective and use the community group for that and last thing I want to say is if we don't address this the risk of having a situation like happened in Brooklyn Park in one of our Parks I mean to be a community on an island that has this very unrestricted dog ordinance and put ourselves in a very vulner able position if somebody were to actually get hurt I I don't want to be on the de addressing that I'd rather make the hard decision regarding the part the dog ordinance um with everybody still safe does anybody else I just I I have to agree and as somebody knew I think this is it sounds like this has been kind of an ongoing isue a while so it's not making a ton of sense to me to try to clarify with signage an ordinance that's already flawed and we know isn't enforceable and then wait all the way until next spring to develop a new one I kind of have to agree about the order of operations um so I'm I'm I'm closely in agreement with with some of the comments I just feel I I I agree I don't want to put Volunteers in the line of fire and I totally agree with that um um I do think that it helps when people understand you know as long as people understand sort of you know what would be required to keep a meeting um somewhat controlled before they go into it I think everyone certainly in this room gets it now um and uh I do think that robust public engagement I don't think just putting it on minetonka matters or something I don't think we can do it like garbage cans I don't think we can just do it online I think you know I think this is sort of like lone Lake Park and we really need to make sure that people in the community from all perspectives are heard so that so that they know that we really listen to them uh in person and if they want to write written comments I think that's really important um I have mixed feelings about pushing the ordinance up I understand the safety concerns it's also been like this for a long time and um I don't think it's any more urgent today than it was yesterday although I I totally respect what um my my attorney colleague um is thinking and um just thinking about the workload and how we're always ever mindful of our own workload and the workload of staff so I want to do it soon sooner rather than later before spring you know we're getting to the end of the offleash season for the most part it'll slow down over there um but I do want to and and I have I do think that if we do have a community working group it would need to involve I think officials I think it would have to involve us I don't think we can just uh pass it off to a group of uh residents or volunteers or pwn it off just on the Park Board which has really been doing the heavy lift so I'm in favor of robust public engagement I think we do need to do um a lot of uh really you know real meetings on it with the public able to speak and um I think we should get to the ordinance soon sooner rather than later but I don't want to upend an already very busy uh agenda for for the rest of the year um this is a good discussion uh first thing uh just a comment relative to the more simple part of the plan my one comment relative to the Purgatory plan is um a lot of discussion was around a barrier along the along between the offleash I call it the offleash area and the Eastern main path and it all seems to get sort of diminished in the language now it's a parenthetic EG comment and I just want to again say I really think that the that fencing or barrier along that section of the the path is critical for uh the interaction between people on the path and and the dogs as well as the Nantucket neighborhood um more more broadly to the conversation about the ordinance um I do think that uh I would agree with uh council member shock about the strength of our current ordinance it's not good um it's the to my knowledge from my research we're the only community in the western suburbs that clearly doesn't state that animals need dogs need to be on leash we have under uh 92585 1-c uh they can be on a leash But A and B give options to be off leash and so um you know to me it's a pretty simple thing to say we should be on leash period now that doesn't mean that in a designated areas of the city you could have areas that are either fenced or designated that are off leash but as an ordinance overall we're trying to protect our residents by saying your dogs need to be be unleash um and I'll give the example I've given the parkboard for the city council I mean right now you could be in your neighborhood with an infant in a in a stroller or walking along with you and have a pitbull off leash walking towards you and you need to be really comfortable with that because that's okay and I'm not trying to pick on pit bulls but I'm trying to draw draw that example of you have to trust that that owner really has control of their dog and they get first you know one command well I don't really feel really great with my grandkid walking around and having any dog any dog even a friendly dog um hoping they're going to be on one command so I just think the ordinance needs to change and I don't think I actually don't think changing the ordinance is hard what's hard is then do you have the off designate off leash designated areas within the city whether they're fenced or unfenced and that's where you'll run into the challenge with we ran into at the park board about purgatory because Purgatory is a a special kind of place and I think even if the ordinance was they need to be leashed in the city I think there's going to be the push back would be well what about what about purgatory you know can I still have my dog off leash in purgatory and um you know you know personally I I've had I've got on both sides of that because I've had dogs that were off leash fine I've got a dog not the current one but the one before who we had to keep leashed and so going to Purgatory we stopped going because it was reactive to other dogs and if a dog ran up it wasn't a good thing so um I think uh I think that uh I'm not advocating that Purgatory become a leash only area I'm just saying that's to me almost a separate challenging discussion that we've been having um regarding immediate steps I do think signage could change immediately regardless of the ordinance because our our signage right now now is too vague about um we as we talked about this in the Park Board it should just basically say your dog needs to be leashed on this Trail not you know the the language we have now which is trying to incorporate both what you can do off leash off Trail and on tril and I just think we could have really simple and that's not a huge investment if over time things change but I think new signage as fast as possible and then moving towards you know the other things that Matt talked about uh for Purgatory are pretty critical if I if I may um you know I've I've certainly watched um some parkboard meetings and and you know I think um I want to comment on a couple of things but regarding the three options you know I think option one when you consider How We Do ordinances really incorporates incorporates a lot of option to um if um if we were going to do option one and say staff write us an ordinance um well they would do that and they would consult among one another it be cross functional then ultimately it would go to the park board for consideration the park board would have a public hearing no public hearing on that okay then but there would be discussion there but then it would come to the council for introduction we don't take public comment on introduction but we do we always take public uh comment on an ordinance that um is is coming forward and I believe I agree with what council member Cal Deb said um you know we want robust conversation on this but in reality we've had a lot of robust conversation on this already and I know that however much we have whether it's a lot or a little we're going to have half the people who want us to do it one way and half the people that want us to do it another way and I want to make sure that they're sufficiently heard but the reality of it is we're not going to all of a sudden have unanimous uh um public that say well we got to do it this way no it's going to be split it's going to be emotional and I think you know maybe we can Pat ourselves on the back and say we've had robust um public conversation on that but nothing will change we know what the robust um public conversation looks like and we've already had it now I don't want to Short Circuit things but I also think let's not be unrealistic and and and throw a community group out there to to get to the dogs if you will um because that will not uh that will not be productive and that will not be an enjoyable experience and we won't learn that much from that I mean I think we wanted I think we need an ordinance we want to do it in a streamlined way and we want to make sure I think that people people get interested when they have something to react to and if it's just kind of oblique and well we're working on this and would you like to sign up and be part of the group I mean we're not going to get anything that's worth having but if we have a a a group of experts our staff in consultation with um with perhaps um the park board or um or the councel or whatever and then bring this thing forward and we have public um I think we can do it more quickly I think we do more efficiently and I think we can it's not going to be painless but it'll be less painful and um and then we can do our jobs as a council and and we can live with the consequences if people don't like what we do they can vote for somebody else yeah I mean we're the ones who are ultimately responsible so I think I think we want to partner with the park board but let's focus on getting it done and let's not talk to ourselves about how important this public engagement is going to be because we already know what the public engagement is going to be my opinion one one person I would agree with that we we've had a lot of public engagement and we tried we've you know we've heard them um kind of just to add to that would be this conversation we were having two years ago so it's not we're kicking the can for two years so I'd say we probably don't need more engagement we probably don't need more time to think about it or to have a new cycle of city council people on let's just do the project I mean we're we've talked about it as a Park Board we've talked about it so let's move forward oh okay so I'm just GNA be the the problem again um so I I will agree so first of all they are separate things the ordinance versus what's going to be done specifically in purgatory Park and um and I I I think that the council should do the ordinance and as quickly as as reasonable I don't so when I when this was first presented my thought was I think a working group sounds really like a good idea but not to do the ordinance um so I think there can be value in a working group a working group is not the same as people coming and yelling into a mic so it's I I know you've heard that this is a chance for for people with differing opinions to work with staff and work and and collaborate and hopefully come to a reasonable Accord I think that there's value in that that's um different than what just us deciding and saying this is how it's going to be and to be clear I I agree with kimy I think PA does as well right and if I may I'll I'll just differentiate I would I would add that the I'm I'm kind of separating the where is off leash appropriate in the city and how should it be done that is a very good collaborative um working group conversation but the ordinance I think let's get it done let's move forward and and and the thing is we don't want to pass bad ordinances but if we pass an ordinance that needs some tweaking down the road the process exists for that to happen we don't have to live with bad laws because we we we maybe Overlook something I think we get it right uh we work hard to get it right but if we need to modify things in the future that can be done there are processes for that um I think we've already you know talked about as a council one of our goals is to be a bit more Nimble um in our governance and uh as has been said this has been two years I know I was first made aware of this in February less than a month um after I came on board I was asking about you know temporary signage to clarify things way back in February and you know here we are in September um so I'm a little bit you know concerned about saying well let's have signage that clarifies the current ordinance while we work on a new ordinance that isn't going to be implemented till spring so I would um really hope that we could move faster on that and if there is a desire to have that you know interim period because every time I've gone to Purgatory Park I would say at least 50% of the dogs that I see are not in compliance so I'm not sure what to do about that because I keep going and doing my own official T unofficial tallies I've even gone to the point where I've you know said to people on trail you know you know the ordinance you need to have your dog on a leash and they'll say yeah yeah yeah and then they'll walk 10 ft down the trail and then they'll let their dog off leash again so you know we have unenforceable ordinance now I don't think letting it stand until next spring is at all helpful um you know this has been done already so I I really agree with Deb we aren't going to you know I really don't want to have another nine months of discussion on this um and I think we just need to bite the bullet and face the music and and and actually kind of piggybacking on that when we have an ordinance I mean you can't enforce every dog to be on every leash all the time but I can say that when I'm running and if I see ahead a dog that's not on the leash the human will look and say oh there's another person coming and put the dog on the leash because there's because they know that there's a there's they shouldn't have the dog off the leash and so if it's that if it's clear I mean I think that people um regulate themselves they when the ordinance is there and and and a strict ordinance I mean that it's some of that will work itself out I I think um without having all the details and so but you guys when you're talking about so you're saying the working group is going to is going to talk about the ordinance in the park no we think that we want to do something one thing that's clear in the master plan is we want to do something for dogs and we've identified that Purgatory Park is the likely place to have something an amenity for dogs it's not hands down the place but it's a likely place and what does that look like is that a dog park is that an off leash area that's more informal and that's where is it in Big Willow like is it a different that's the conversation that needs to be had that's a little more a little more robust and a little more um flexible in my mind than the ordinance which is policy right okay okay and and I just want to say I agree with with the mayor's assessment of sort of you know and some of the other people we've we've talked about it we've heard about it and I'm not expecting it to be painless I would prefer it to be less painful so I appreciate I appreciate that perspective and I I I agree with it um I I'm all in favor of all dogs on leashes all the time just to be on record that's just me um I I would welcome the dog community's input somehow on where how to have some dog friendly areas that keep everybody safe that even if nobody's damaged they're not frightened um because that counts um and that natural areas that have been painstakingly restored aren't wrecked and um there may be some good ideas I I don't want to say okay you can have half of purgatory I just that's not okay and I agree with the concept of just write the ordinance staff and then somehow get some ideas about where the dogs can go yeah if they have to be off leash and one of the things that I talked to uh Mike Funk about a few days ago was just going on an intentional tour with staff of the park and the things that we keep on talking about on a map it's big Park and we have to put our walking shoes on but I really want to know exactly with staff what are we talking about you know and we're talking about certain areas possibly being off leash when we're talking about fences and parking and this and that and the other and the restored areas which are really important to me I I really want to really know what are we talking about with staff not just going you know very often with this group we go to the edge of a park and they Point here and they point there and I really want to be up close and personal with the things that we're talking about there because it is a very special Park and people are extremely passionate about it so I want to make sure that when I talk about it I know what I'm saying Deb wants to get ticks I do I'm all about it if I may add you know I think it's important to say that this is not we're not just talking about purgatory part Park here I I think we need to recognize that there we have 28 square miles there are people in all 28 of those square miles that own dogs um you know Purgatory Park is one location and we should perhaps consider that but I think we should be open-minded enough to say you know what maybe it it's not Purgatory Park or maybe it's Purgatory Park and another Park I mean I think I mean we want to we want to have a do a place that's appropriate for dogs we don't want to give up the whole park um uh the whole Purgatory Park but but I think we want to approach it with an open mind and that's where if we're going to talk about a community group or we can get solicit uh solicit input that's the place we should deliver the ordinance um and then we should ask for people's input on best locations for a dog friendly location and the populations of humans and canines have grown a lot over 30 the last 30 years there have been not too many new parks in minaka so and I know the land is really expensive but maybe we need to think outside of the box of things places that are actually Parks if that's possible I want to be mindful of time too if I can just throw out one more one more thing um because there's you know there's a lot is really hard complic at thing but improving the signage at Purgatory is really simple I mean and on the trail it already is there is no off leash opportunity on the improved Trails the park regulations forget the ordinance the park regulations mandate you have to be on a leash on the trail but there aren't a lot of signs that really simply make that point so when you're out jogging and you see somebody with a dog off leash you can go see that sign it's no there's no grain this it's not the sign that's unmaintained maintain just on this Trail your dog needs to be on a leash and I would just really advocate for that um because I think even if the ordinance changed that that rule remain the same that on the maintained Trails your dog should be on a leas and it that should be true anywhere in minetonka I just have to say one more very important thing I think my colleagues would agree you guys the parkboard took so much pressure away that un think unreasonably so um I I cannot thank you enough for the work that you've done over the course of the past two years and the pressure that you felt in dealing with this in if we could do it all over again I would ask to do it slightly differently I mean it kind of was like we slept easier but um so thank you thank you your this was not something that we didn't see we were all very attuned to it and and concerned concerned about it I'm I don't think we thanked you enough so please on behalf of the whole Council I think I can say thank you very very much and um volunteers should not be in the position that you folks had to face earlier this year so I I don't think anybody anticipated it would go the way that it did thank you all Mike thank you chair mayor maybe just to to put a bow on tonight's conversation a little bit uh thank you again to our part board on our Council for your comments I think from a staff perspective what we hear Direction being tonight is that you're leaning towards option one which is directing staff to create an ordinance which we will do as Mr kka laid out so we will draft an ordinance um bring that um we'll talk about whether we bring that initially to the part board for their feedback then we'll get it to the council we can do that relatively quickly because it's not a lot of language in the ordinance so it's a fairly straightforward when it comes to writing ordinances on this one we'll certainly have Korean heiney or City attorney involved in it we'll draft an ordinance bring that to the park board bring it to councel for a first reading then we'll outline a communication strategy um whether invol it'll involve minaka matters and what other strategy we'll use to doce some level of public engagement we'll talk to you Council whether you want to do two weeks three weeks a month we can talk about that length of public engagement and then we'll bring an ordinance back to you for final adoption yet this fall so we'll we'll work on that now and then concurrently I think you're also looking at item or option 3B which is to convene a work group I don't want to use the word task force but certainly like a work group uh to really talk about I think all the other things that have been mentioned here um from looking at locations of offleash areas because if we're going to tighten up the ordinance uh then we certainly I think you're saying we also want to make space for dog owners for have off leash opportunities and so that work group would be in charge of flushing out what that might look like at Purgatory Park what that might look like at other city parks because it can be more than one location or locations so that group could work for a period of months on locations identifying locations and then what type of perhaps rules might be in place for hours of operation fencing no fencing kind of flushing all that out and then coming back to a recommendation to the council um hopefully no later than next spring with with that next phase uh and then in ter a park signage I think as Matt Mr K laid out that'll come back to the park board here um octo SE October meeting uh we'll flush out some of that signage conversation and what that could look like in the interum so that's kind of I think what we're hearing from you say I hear I see heads nding up and down if um staff is misinterpreting your Direction please certainly say that now otherwise we're going to gear up for option one and option 3B and then if assuming option 3B is um correct is there um I think for staff would want to know if a part board member or council member would want to be part of that work group so we're putting you on the spot with um raising your hand I think uh I think it's beneficial that that there's a community group I think you know the form the pause for parks and parks for pause and I think they've recently actually met with public uh safety about the offleash dog so they might be a good place to start in terms of Engagement too I would say that we we also have somebody from or offer an opportunity from the sustainability commission and the Dei commission uh because there may be perspectives that you I don't want to muddy the water too much but I particularly the Dei commission I think that would be a good opportunity I agree see down I have an ordinance question will the ordinance include will the ordinance include um some something about penalties par parakeet penal penalties I was like what in the world are you saying fines some consequences for not the barcades have to be Unleashed too I just like what hard for to ordinance yeah ferrets cats llamas okay so I I would somewhere maybe not in the first run but I think there should be some consequences for bad behavior on the part of humans or their animals and I if there's going to be a park amenity for dogs then there should be possibly the uh the ability to ban a dog if they can't behave themselves there we heard quite a lot of comments about people saying fence dog parks don't work because the only people who take their dogs there are people who can't control their dogs I don't think that's true but I don't go to dog park so I don't know anyway the if people are worried about badly behaved dogs then maybe there needs to be some consequences I have no idea how that would be enforced there actually I think there actually is somewhere buried in this language on the animal ordinance um reference to that uh if there's like a second and this exists today you know if if if you're walking in a neighborhood and a dog comes out and jumps at you you can report that the community Ser Community whatever it's called service officer and and they come out to the house and they tell the owner that your dog's been cited or been notified and on a second notice I think you have a real problem for your dog uh and I think it's somewhere in here relative to Voice Control too if it if it already exists we don't need to reinvent probably could be better well we're going to we're going to be Reinventing we are going to be Reinventing and U chair and mayor just answer that question yes there'll be penalty Provisions written in the ordinance and staff will have recommendations regarding that that's where City attorney will come into play on what is enforceable excuse me how you enforce it and what the right tools is for enforcement and and so that would be part of the staff recommendation Miss hey is anything you like to add to that right well we've got two minutes to do what yes have one last comment I would um on the timeline I if it is all at all possible depending on what the park board thinks I don't know that um I'm wondering if signage can be done before running it by uh the park board again in October whether you know the the signage that uh commissioner in Ingraham was uh mentioning could couldn't be done more quickly than that during this fall season where there's a lot of walking and things going on I don't think that would be too difficult I don't think anything that's clarifying is going to really run into opposition from the parkboard yeah we we'd be happy to look at an email and comment quickly yeah that would be my only comment sorry for speaking for everybody but okay we got one more item CH it'll be quick um Darren Ellingson is going to provide a quick Park project update and then after that we will head out on the tour all right good evening uh mayor council and Park Board uh this will be fairly quick uh highlight some of the projects we've worked on lately uh we started the project of redoing the tennis courts at l Park and Junction Park last summer uh just between getting the paving done later and the very short season that contractors have but Coatings down they didn't get those done last fall uh but and then we had to find a different contractor this spring those got done and open for play in June and then uh as part of the post plan when that was done over a year ago that we said that when we would resurface courts we would look at the options of adding pickle ball so we did have a neighborhood meeting for those two courts and based on that feedback there was no desire to have pickle ball added so those Courts at 10 loner and Junction were done as tennis only uh moving on to this year we did the Reich Park tennis courts those are paved and the contractor should be here fairly soon to get the codings on and we did have another neighborhood meeting for that Park and based on feedback we received we're going to do add pickle ball lines but they will use the tennis Nets so the recreational pickle Ballers should have a good time but the hardcore pickle Ballers are going to want to go down to Lon Lake Park but uh also we worked with the Glen Lake uh Girls Athletic League the gal softball team uh this the last two years uh they've been doing a significant amount of fundraising and then also we're able to get Grant funds from the twins uh uh uh grant program so last year we replaced all of the out Outfield fencing in the first and third baselines with taller fencing six- foot fencing instead of 4ft fencing uh that was that the last year's project and then this year uh they used to have a single batting cage at the park it was really not meeting their needs and pretty old and rundown so they also contributed money to that so we have the making a double batting cage uh for two different lengths of of players ability and that is getting close to being done the fencing is up it's paved just waiting for uh a little more fencing work to get done but we have all the materials at hand The netting the carpeting the electrical work is done so uh that should be done here hopefully within the next two weeks uh lone Lake Park when we built the pickle ball courts in 2018 and 19 we took down a picnic shelter uh we so that went from two shelters to one uh we were looking at put putting up that other shelter uh but now since we're getting close to the master planning process in L Lake Park in 20126 we're going to put a pause on putting up that shelter just as a kind of that whole Global look at the park to see what's really the need and where is the best place for it so we're put that on pause for now and then we'll be working with uh natural resources on future restoration plans um Public Works uh Park staff Works closely with the restoration groups as you will see at Ford Park uh a lot of Forestry Mowing and other things so we will continue be working with Matt and Leslie for future plans at Orchard Meadow and uh the lake Rose areas in the near future so that is all I have happy to answer any questions all right we don't have anything else if you are ready to adjourn we can adjourn to the tour let's get on this I'm not going the bus thank you all