it's somewhere 5:00 right we're good it's 5 o00 somewhere all right some to call meeting to order this is February 18th 2025 and this is the work session meeting for the city council of Minista I'm going to make quick introductions here I'm Lisa way I'm mayor and council president is Kath lein Peter vicory fa la and ran and then staff pres is our assistant administrator Ali paus we also have our administrator J Jasper kral David AEL and our community development director and Paul F is our chief of police and then Aon with TST and going to be presenting on our water treatment plan um later on and with that um oh do we have anybody remote participating is it um we have an and Gary so anof is our city clerk taking notes remotely and then Gary hi Gary thank you for waving any know Gary Peters is our Public Works director so we can ask some questions if we have to and with that we have um we have quite a lot that's why we started at 5 one of the reasons um on our agenda so um it consists of we're going to meet our new city staff members and then we're going to talk about the XL Energy easement over City Hall and police properties the Woodland Co HOA crosswalk request and then we have um we have also had a discussion on whether to re or whether to it's regarding private um items in public right of weight you saw that in your packet so I won't get into that right now and then Aon will update us on the water treatment plan option so with that I'm going to start out with Ally if you want to give us a quick introduction on our new St yeah you can stand up we don't fight too hard started as our new Public Work maintenance work her on November 12th she was previously um at Mineral Service Plus we hired two people for mineral um and we're happy to have him here he was also enrolled in electrici program um through Community colle how do you like it so far good are you out there plowing and shoveling in this cold yes and you still like it all right good anything you want to add no okay you have a good boss I don't think you can answer that right there he is right there we're glad to have you on board welcome to the teamk you and then we have Brendon McCarthy he started as our first engineering technici on January 21st he was we poached him from Walia Public Services technician and a lot of experience the RO evolves great and um I know you're an interest resent us you can walk I think he's the only one oh all right in the group but we're happy had to have you I know this is a brand new position for us and uh hopefully you enjoy it here and um prosperous and U work well anday stick around for a while so yeah and do you like your boss thank you very much for coming it's always nice to put a with names and we always approve the hir so it's nice to have you come and greet us as well as to as well so thank you so next we have the EXL energy e over at City Hall you don't have to stay if you'd like to um eand yeah um real quickly mayor and members of the council um so page three of your packet of the work session packet has the diagram that probably explains this best um to the point Excel Energy is redoing their transmission line and you can see it takes a weird jog on the back of the what is City Hall and police properties on that page three diagram in your map well they Excel Energy reached out to the city and asked if we'd be interested in all in uh them obtaining an easement from us to fix that jog in their line and and just do a straight shot if you will over city property uh on the on the rear of it I guess we can get to the map there but um so what what they're looking to do um what looking at market rate value anywhere from five to $6,000 is the range they gave us is what they'd be willing to pay the city for said easement if you're you know interested in doing so um if not um there's all the other idea would be a license agreement um not a preferred route by the city or Excel but um that is another option available able to you or if you're not interested they'll just simply put the line back where where it was this obviously is easier for them and more preferred for them but before they got too far in their planning process um they wanted to figure out if if the council was willing to go down this this road with them if they are then they'll we'll go through the process of having the City attorney review the easement documents and and all those uh details will get ironed out through the process but we wanted to reach out early and see if if there's a willingness to to go ahead and uh go move forward with an easement questions will there be any Towers on the city property or just they they don't know that yet they haven't gotten far enough in their design to figure that out when you say Towers holes H um likely not but he he didn't know that yet they haven't they're just preliminary stages of coming up with plans so um they didn't know that it looks like there's a and some wets there is there any enviral concerns Orting that would be would be any if they do affect any Wetlands they would have to go through the wack up process they generally will try to avoid that as much as possible but obviously that's not always you know they can't always do that so they would go through the the Wetland review in terms of what they impacting and then having to replace or buy credits whichever they end up doing so I noticed that agreement said City would still be responsible problems things like that they could bring that out any um I don't I don't I don't think so um I mean I mean I guess it depends on what I guess you don't know what you're going to find or I don't know what would you'd have to correct I mean nothing's no you know it's find it's probably just have to stay there whatever it is you know for the poll or whatever they're doing not like they'd be Excavating I mean other than drilling a hole for the pole correct like that in theory they're just going to use two existing polls just put one line through them yeah five or $6,000 doesn't seem like much our attorney probably similar to that but what's your sense on that yeah we we tried to squeeze them we said what we knew that our Council would ask that same question so we said you're going to have to do better than that and he said the only the only way it could get better is if they were to do an appraisal but they looked at I mean they know they're looking at what the value of land is around here and based on what what the value is that's what their determination was that it would be the5 to $6,000 range so there's the risk I mean they could do an appraisal it could be less could come back less than what they're offering or it could be more but it's probably not going to be a significant amount more see my my thought was how much are they saving by going straight across versus having to redo that that money is that five or six grand you know I mean what's it worth to them I don't know I I I know said that number to that's kind of that's kind of low but mean yeah and that's not any land that we would consider right I mean I would I think the attorney fees would have to be included so if it's if they won't go up above the 6,000 then it would have to be but this w B is doing this so we should be able to find out okay tell us really what they're willing to go to um I would go a little higher and then also throw in um attorney fees they would have to pay they know that already that they have to pay the it's an I mean they're going to have to fill a general service application we told them there's a deposit they'll they'll P the attorney fees there they know they know that um we already asked if they'd go above 6,000 they said that they'll just do it the way they did it they they'll just walk away then why wouldn't matter you guys want to do take the six grand and yeah yeah okay they do give us the money every year for our just today so sure okay yeah okay sounds good thanks okay um next is the um Woodland Co HOA crosswalk request who's going to take that I can take that uh so um this has been kind of an ongoing discussion that um we've had with with some of the HOA members or residents of Will and Cove um probably for about the last year um on and off with just various questions you'll see things like The Pedestrian um activated crosswalk lights those are some of the things that we've talked about in the past with this group um trimming up some of the hedges along uh Woodling or Kings Point Road in Woodland Cove um Boulevard um we've looked at that we we've worked with them one of the requests that they had at that time uh was to add a couple crosswalks um to uh Wen Cove Boulevard so we've looked at it internally as a as staff um you know myself Gary uh Allison did a little research and and Paul that's kind of the core group that looks at some of these requests um the engineering piece does not meet the standard of adding a crosswalk uh so to that level it's really up to city council as far as if they want to do it I do have a couple of video or three videos I believe um that kind of I think it's a doorbell cam or something that kind of show shows the intersection um they ask I don't know if there's Representatives that's that's your camera okay yeah yeah so um we can pull that up if if you'd like um there's yep and then I would say ask you know talk to Paul Paul's got you know from a public safety standpoint um you know a strategy about crosswalks and and really you know what one thing that we don't want to do is is have a false sense of security you know there's a crosswalk there we have pedestrian ramps you'll see probably from the videos um there's ped ramps there so people can cross it's just a matter of people need to be aware of of Crossing now if there's a certain amount of traffic that um increases on that road then that would potentially trigger adding something you know stop sign or or something um but right now it's just the engineering standards that Allison uses don't indicate that that we should do anything at this point but um because we have a request um we've indicated to the group um get a letter from the HOA and bring it to council and then we can talk about it to see if there's something that the this group wants to do or direct staff to do so let's see the video yeah um give me one second because I think it's actually in my Ally do you have are you able to access my folder because it's in my uh City administrator project so iagree [Music] standards and but they um and what they usually do is they say if it's more or not they and then they have different specifications and standards that they use before they say yes it's warranted one of the standards is Le limits one of the standards is um number of traffic units that Traverse or you know ATS and then another one is how many accidents have and those those are and then they also look at s lines so what are the sight lines at these intersections do they Moet their standards I believe the standards for the I think for crosswalk I think it's about 300 ft is that correct correct okay so it's 300 ft uh both for the pedestrians they want to make sure pedestrians can see both directions for 300 ft and they want to make sure that the vehicle's compl be 300 ft um ahead in case people are in the crosswalk or in that intersection and if it so that's why um so a lot of times minda and Engineers will say it doesn't it's not warranted because feeds aren't there accidents aren't there yet and um and then uh because of a number of traffic thoughts you know daily traffic thoughts and so but I think we should also look at it in terms of do we want to prevent from happen think a crosswalk will present prevent anything from happening drivers in the neighborhood AR necessarily on the and pedestrians frequently just walk wherever they want we were driving on Kings Point Road and saw kids just go right through the middle of the intersection not to the flashing pedestrian lights push the button and make drivers aware of them I think a crosswalk will give pedestrians a false sense of security that cars are going to stop and they don't need to be aware of it think with regard to the bus stop you can reach out to either minetonka or west Tonka and ask them to move the bus stop pa you want M mayor counc I was going to mention that maybe we should take the video want critique them because the issues are a little bit different it might be easier to track okay if we back you don't if you can remember the first M don't necessarily have to go back um I will say that one of the things that I noticed in the first video I mean certainly the goal here is is for safety but as was mentioned I don't think just putting it a crosswalk makes it safe okay I think the first video this video here demonstrates a couple things to me a people are capable of cross street safely with or without a cross what I would look at is how long do folks have to wait to cross as there's so many vehicles that they have to wait a long time well that would be more indicative of the need for a cross um I think we saw a vehicle that stopped coming the other way with no cross um while I think people try to be Good Samaritans that's actually an incredibly dangerous thing to do if you're if you have the right away then go don't stop because you're creating a hazard by doing that a lot of people don't understand that could be that the car was parked though right have it's to tell here but those the dog are they come up with the intersection they wait a single car was by they look and they crossly they safely crossed the road that doesn't indicate a need for anything that indicates this works exactly the way it was intended from my perspective okay one thing that's um hold on let's watch the next one and and chief did you have anything to see on that one it's the same thing I think Ines the same how many are there just three oh okay the golf Court's a whole another set of issues in the neighborhood right then would prevented that obviously that shouldn't have that's all okay thank you um Ain I'll give you two minutes if you that'd be great thank you uh my name is Aaron geni I live at 46 box drive that camera is mounted on my house so this is a day-today concern of mine and my wife being that she works from an office right in the that front uh respectfully Chief I would say pedestrians have the right of way most drivers don't yield to that at all even your own officers have not yielded to that I've personally had three separate police officers okay okay we don't need to get into whether they are adhering to it but why why do you feel a crosswalk is needed University of Minnesota did a study a year ago that found that 60% of cars did not yield to pedestrians at B March prosp I can forward that study to whoever wants to see it and read through it from the article that I found at least painting lines and putting up a sign does offer a reduction in those incidents 50 50 pedestrians are killed a year in the state of Minnesota I really don't want it to action finally happen when there's a dead child or a dead dog or a dead person being scraped off the road by your officers for something to be got because it's a concern thank you I think something to add would be that this is a sub HOA the actual Master HOA did was not in support of putting crosswalks in this was brought to the master and they were not in support of it because again they don't want parents kids anyone have a false sense of security they don't have to look both ways before they cross the street that they don't have to wait for cars if they can clearly see that are coming they don't want them just saying oh there cross off I can just go I think I disagree do realize that uh before I joined the council I spent a lot of time in the Woodling area and uh got to know with the bouevard pretty well uh and it is a thorough far for community uh and there are a lot of new housing going in at the end of it so I it's only going to get is um so people really go through that particular uh Road pretty quickly um and also behind the town houses there is a park and so that's a big attraction of course for people with the dogs kids uh to to cross this room uh and so I think it would be a really good idea because uh I just think that it should alert drivers uh to its more residential area thorough and uh I would never assume that that crossbox would go so would be a support in this um interest is not nearly as dense as talking I was really fast the down almost like they were not caring about the kids and the dog walkers and I do think it gives one more thing to look at um I was thinking about um I don't know the name of the R I think it's St Bonnie not Trista but you know where that Rush dental office is in St Bonnie at the end of that road they they're having the opposite they want to have like a stop sign remov because they say no one stops so it's kind of the opposite situation here where they fought somebody fought for a stop sign and but that looks pretty scary and I think for the cost of beat on the road I mean if it could catch someone's attention and make them slow down be more mindful of someone Crossing there I would be fall have two questions um because first we really feel like the issue is that motorists are not yielding to pedestrians in the street or is that people are driving too fast on yes yes um maybe both if people aren't yielding I'm familiar with the uh looked up the uh University of Minnesota study you talked about um researching this if the issue is that people aren yielding I I do think that crosswalk would probably be helpful if the issue is just that speed limit is 30 and people are driving 45 I'm not sure if I could see that that might give people false sense of security um so I just want to make sure we're addressing the real poor issue here um and then second one's kind of a new guy question is how much does a cost put in a cross water yeah so there's the initial cost right um and I know Gary was going to try to get some numbers for this he was going to talk to the striping guy but then every year it has to be redone so Allison maybe you have an idea you know it might be like 500 bucks to put in one crosswalk is what I would estimate it to be between supplies and time yeah so and that's just ongoing the one thing to keep in mind is you know the precedent if there's you know more crosswalks you might we might get more requests right if um you know so just keep that in mind um because you know in this case you know it's a crosswalk we've gotten some requests for stop signs and things like that in the past and you know we really is it ashto is that the standards that you guys use um to develop you know if the need is there or not for I forget or it's a uniform traffic control device manual yes it's a nationwide standard for where these applications so you know we try to lean on that but then if it's outside of that realm that's where city council can come in and say w we think we we should put it in here for the betterment of the community um so as far as costs go about 500 bucks a year per crosswalk so in this case you have sign yep then there's signs there would be two signs yep but you know you got you know the four if you want to do all four you know inter you know all four crosswalks are just the two across the Woodland Co Parkway um you know at the two locations and we're probably talking you know with the with the sign signs are in one time cost they're probably about 250 bucks a piece one time both directions you need them so you're probably $1,000 there plus another thousand for the for the um striping and then probably a figure $ thousand dollar a year Ono how far apart are the two intersections and then right there there's noville doesn't need one right maybe just do it at at one well and if we if we do this you're going to get more requests for these because they're going to want one at and Boulevard and Lotus where the new pool is eventually they'll want one down by pickup fall courts are everyone will start requesting these and then whatever precedent we set with this they'll be like well they got one why aren't we getting one and I mean like why is it Woodland this HOA said no the master board said no we don't want Prof we don't think they're needed we think it will give people a false sense of security there are plenty of kids my neighbor who do not look for cars who run across the street the golf carts is a whole another set of problems they're out of control the kids driving them don't it's not for anybody and I I don't know if you could tell who's driving it a kid or an adult because the kids drive through like there's no tomorrow on the par golf carts but that was the bad one and that was a golf cart that wasn't a car the cars that went through there was plenty of time for the people to stand there while one car passed and then they could cross there wasn't a steady stream of cars going through the the ref if kids are are running across the boat wouldn't a crosswalk help alert drivers that there's a crosswalk ahead and that maybe they need to pay close attention and well but parents should just be teaching their kids to stop and look for cars they should but but if the kids aren't or the kids are not paying attention that that's I think the concern is but paint a paint on the road is it going to well let's ask Chief I mean just but Chief can I ask I mean can I just ask one more question why if do you feel that your your neighbors and your community members feel the same way yes then why aren't they all storming the gates of the HOA and demand it's a city street it's not an HOA Street it's a city street if we're talking if we're talking about the street that's south of there by the playground that is an HOA maned Street that's a private drive for the residents of the Town Hall Woodland Co Boulevard is a city of Minista owned Street and hold on just a second Chief Madam mayor and Council I I think we can all agree that we we want our streets to be safe um but I'll be honest just slapping in crosswalks every time someone comes here here and asks for one um especially when they show a video with a c I didn't see an issue there's nothing wrong with people understanding that I heard a term about an unmarked crosswalk is that yes an unmarked crosswalk it just looks like a plan intersection to me every corner is a crosswalk that's from the Minnesota Department of Transportation well okay I disagree I think an intersection is in crosswalk is a designated area designed yeah because we're trying to work through the problem my point isn't that I don't want to do something for you my point is that sometimes you can slap up more signs it doesn't fix the problem it makes it worse you can put up more St signs all people do is drive faster between them because they so frustrated and the same can happen with crosswalks it might be helpful if we could pull up maybe that stretch of roadway and see it's hard to know just talking about it how far is it the next yeah so there's there's a crosswalk about 300 feet to the east is just put Google Map yeah so there's a crosswalk that's where we'd like people to cross but we understand people cross at the yes but people are pedestrians cross at the closest have sidewalks leading to the so I understand that some people don't want to walk 300t to a marked but I mean crosswalk but that's why it was designed well are you are you saying every intersection have because that would become so cumbersome that it would actually take away from the point of having a cross it doesn't draw awareness it just makes it so confusing no the C the marked the current marked crosswalk is how far from Fox club right well which part of fox gr because there's two entrances this is the mark cross right there and then Fox Club has two entrances which one the park and this trail with the park or sidewalk right here that they can walk on down and then get onto H which is the but there's a sidewalk there that's more than 300t though it's probably 500 or 600t so can whoever is running just point out the location that you're requesting the crosswalk at and it be right right here that's one of them and then the other one is at cranville and then the actual crosswalk is that's crosswalk for the trail across has nothing to do with Crossing getting to the that's turn around come back so did you measure it to the first Fox Glove yep it's 350 ft to the first Fox Glove and then 950 to Greensville but there's also yeah so you can see there's if you look there's a ped ramp three ped ramps so it be this one so yeah it's 950 ft that's that's a pretty good distance I mean 9et a good distance it is and I I want to make sure people can still cross there right we have ped ramps it's just the pedestrians need to be alert and aware that you know and I believe the the way that the the law states is you know you you're not you don't get the right away as a pedestrian until you enter the street so if you can be sitting on the PED ramp I believe that's the way Paul has described it to me is you can be you know 5 feet away from the PED ramp but as soon as you enter the curb line or the street that's when the car needs to yield legally um so you know if somebody's walking up there and a car drives by at 30 m an hour it probably might feel like they're driving pretty fast but I know we've had our Speed trailer out there significantly that collects data and there's Paul knows and Allison knows way more about this I'm kind of Faking it but there's perceived speed and actual speed so when somebody's driving by you at a really you know 10 feet away and they're driving 30 it seems like driving pretty dang fast but that's interesting that The Pedestrian has a right away once they enter the street even if they just put out there I I never knew that I always thought cars had the right of weight unless there was a pedestrian Crossing then The Pedestrian has the right of way that's how I always that's what I thought assume the right way the intersection um but you can't It also says you can't just jump out in front of a car either no no I just get to jump in front of a car say well I have the right right um the whole idea behind this design is is to use common sense of course um and so so at what point would would a pedestrian Crossing be um appropriate there or or um warranted there when we get 1,000 adds a day I mean is that metam mayoring Council maybe the engineer could answer maybe actual numbers but from my perspective I'm not po to a crosswalk I just think we need to take a logical approach otherwise we're going to be putting crosswalks everywhere or you're going to putting crosswalk okay everywhere and then they kind of lose their effectiveness okay we want them to be obvious and have some meaning and make sense in the right places I'm not close to a crosswalk but I don't think we should put one Here There and Everywhere because it's going to have the opposite effect it's going to create confusion and it is going to create a false sense of security um whether there was a crosswalk or not I always taught my kids and my grand kids that you don't ever rely on someone else to see you or do the right thing right you need to make make sure that it's safe and then you decide they don't decide well and the argument for putting one at kensville is the bus stop correct but there are bus stops all over the neighborhood that don't have crosswalks with tons of kids on them and you don't need a crosswalk the bus has an arm the kids can wait on the other side of the road till the Bus shows up and then cross when the arm is out that's what they do by my house on Creek Side off the really big one on Creek Side and Co Parkway like you wait for the bus most kids are sitting in a parents cars anyway yeah I don't I don't disagree with that because um buses do have flashing red lights and whatnot I'm just wondering about the Fox Glove one if it's warranted there um I mean it's a natural comments and else um the problem with wood Boulevard is that coming down the hill coming out of the new sub first of all there's no speed signs heading west on go heading east they they not heading west um so they're coming down it's a hill a little bit they pick up speed the problem with Woodland cold is there are no actual houses with driveways coming out on we have a couple of streets a little bit different when you get up in the other subdivision there's houses all along the can't get going too fast but people are pulling out of the driveways not the case all along here and they pick up speed I walk my dog every day through there same thing to Aaron you got to watch walking across that street because people are not going through all right is a main it is a main thorough right um I would not put crosswalks all throughout the development I I don't think so that that's necessary but what is this is30 okay yeah well and we don't put up sorry just for the speed limits if there's no stop sign or no no speed limit signs it's 30 that's the that's the way the law is written so if you don't see it if you don't every I mean I've just taught that in driver's ed um so you know if you don't know what the speed limit is you don't see a sign it's 30 that's that's all right um well let's um any any change of heart or any other comments no I'm still not uh entirely St the issues whether it's a stop sign issue or a crosswalk issue that's where I go because if we hear lot I I know that people do speed through there I see it every day um and I'm not sure if crosswalk is going to fix that um but that's what we're we're considering right now well we're not considering stop signs um we're just considering a um a crosswalk and I'm not sure stop signs do slow people people don't I'm not sure but um and then the question is even if they weren't speeding would that still resolve any safety issues for pedestrians I think that would be the question um so I think to um the chief's point we should have some kind of criteria on which to base a crosswalk so that we don't end up I don't the poll's putting a crosswalk in here it seems to me like it makes sense because people um there seems to be some kind you know division between the trail crosswalk and then this this one here um and also there's a a park destination so it seems to me like they would be using that crosswalk frequently having said that I still think it would behoove us to maybe establish some criteria um to determine um how we can then not not approve because ion of them in this throughout Woodland so we say well this is here because it needs this or this or this criteria kind of like M but we don't have to have those stringent of you know standards but then that way when somebody comes and says well we want one on the next 350 ft or we want one you know what I'm saying then we can say no this is our criteria so this is why this one is here so then we need to set the criteria and determine if that intersection meets the new criteria we're setting right right and so I would say have have the police and staff kind of put together a criteria to use by which we would then determine with uh where in the future or if this one meets that criteria um and then in the future when we get more requests then we can use those same criterias so if let's say up there by the pool somebody says well we need a crosswalk here and we say okay here's the three or four criterias that we have does it meet those criteria it does put in a crosswalk it doesn't we don't put in a crosswalk and when you say crosswalk are you talking about putting the flashing signs as well or just striping the street well again that would be what's more effective or what's what's better so if if I may um we do have criteria that that we use like from the engineering standards we would need guidance from from your from this group as far as what those criteria are um because I'm I'm kind of drawing a blank as far as something that's not subjective and more you want an objective like yes or no right for instance in this case the crosswalk would lead directly then to this park back there so you know something like that is there is this um intersection a destination for instance does it lead to a des dination or an immediate you can't do that in that neighborhood there are parks everywhere I mean that then you put a crosswalk at Big Woods and woodlink Co Parkway and people already blow through the stop sign that is there but it leads directly to the big Park so that criteria right there would mean that we would have to put in a crosswalk there and people blow through the stop sign they're going to blow through the crosswalk well how many stop sign or crosswalks could there or would there potentially be one two three and have we had requests for other areas M mayor C I think uh I've had a number of conversations over the last I know several years regarding this neighborhood as it continues to develop for crosswalk probably more so for stop signs okay than crosswalks which kind of became the same argument I I'm not an engineer so I can't answer is there some kind of a requirement that says crosswalks have to be so far apart I don't know the answer to that um and so I mean I would think that there would be some kind of distance um Madam mayor if I may uh so included in the packet there was a we had a somebody from our traffic uh area provide some guidance as far as looking at the the crossrock request in there and it's on page 21 of the packet there is um a flowchart if you will as far as what components go into a crosswalk analysis um you'll see in there one of the first decisions um after the first decision is is the first question is no it talks about an engineering study so uh when we look at the the engineering study it does look at the volume of pedestrians going through the neighborhood certainly the the speed and the the volume of traffic going through there um and then also included in that flowchart is the distance from the other Crossing so it does does walk through some of the um evaluation criteria when um looking at crosswalks through there but certainly an engineering analysis is a lot more than what the council is for in this I mean I don't think we need to spend $8,000 um to be told that cars are traveling faster than 30 miles an hour or that there's you know people crossing here it's yeah but I think I think one of the um things that would be good to know is if if a cross for to go in at Fox Club Drive how far would apart would be um an acceptable distance because I think that would then limit the number of cross box is it 350 ft is it 700 ft I mean how far should they be apart what is a reasonable and safe distance because they don't want them at every intersection I understand that and I would if I may I would say that's up to the city council because right now I mean we obviously want through an engineering evaluation of of the roads and the road configuration when it was put in it didn't wor any crosswalk so if city council says oh geez we want to have crosswalks every 300 feet well then that's now the standard if we follow the engineering standard it's none yeah but how so engineering standards say how far apart I mean I think it depends on the type of Road and the speed and and all those different factors which I believe are factored into the analysis of this when they're when they're initially looked at but if but if that's a PO if that's something you want to look at I mean then we're talking a significant amount more money um to do this consistently throughout this neighborhood and possibly other neighborhoods excuse me for saying this but if if I lived where you lived and this is a problem that you are very passionate about I can see it in your face um I would have all of my neighbors in this chamber I would have brought all my neighbors because I mean if if it's that if if you say all your neighbors feel this way then so let's do this um our next meeting um what I would suggest um our next meeting is uh March 17th is our next meeting because probably won't meet on the third um it would be good for us to hear from more neighbors so bring your neighbors and sign up under persons to be heard and um ask the council to consider a crosswalk we won't consider two I'll tell you that right now because those are um between because the one where the U bus stop is for for um children getting on and off the bus that should be addressed with the bus company if they're not putting out their stop arm with their lights flashing that's the bus company's issue um if you want um crosswalk here by Fox Club because there's a park that people like to go to that's a different story so come with your neighbors as council member Lacy said then we can decide if there's going to be more in the meantime we can kind of look at how far apart we might allow to have these crosswalks we won't make any decision on May 17th but at least we can hear from um March yeah thank you thank you we won't make any won't make any decisions on March 17th but at least that'll give us some feedback and some information so session um no do come for the regular meeting at 7 o'clock come a little bit ahead of time sign up in the back there's a sign up sheet and then we'll we'll hear from you you get a few minutes to speak so you don't have to be elaborate we just want to know how many people really want this I think that that'll be good for us to know and letters work too yeah no not I more than this you yeah get all your neighbors WR letter all right and thank you for taking the time we we do appreciate that um all right next um item then is the private items in public right of way yeah and I can talk about this briefly and Alison and Gary's here to kind of fill in it's uh we are having some audio problems so but this one is pretty straightforward so generally when we have a reconstruction project there's a lot of work that is done in the RightWay so the area outside of the curb line um that people generally so I guess shouldn't say generally but sometimes they have stuff in there like irrigation um invisible fence for your dogs those types of things what we've been doing and what we noticed at this the 2023 project was there's a lot of City funds that get tied up and it actually delays the project pretty significantly to to finish these things the way our ordinance reads is that you can't put anything in the RightWay now people do right they want to have their grass watered and things like that but what we're suggesting here is um to start the policy potentially in 2026 when we have another reconstruction project potentially and kind of put homeowners maybe on those projects and just in the city in general if we're directed to um that they are responsible for the things that they have in the RightWay so they would have to proactively have an irrigation person come out or proactively have a invisible fence person or whatever else you have in the right away if you want to keep it it's on the homeowner versus on the city now couple things to note um I don't know if I don't know the the right way to say this there may be people that are taking advantage of this um throughout the project we decide that there isn't probably won't be much work in the RightWay this year for 2025 no it's mostly within the curb line so um there's a little bit of curb repair but we're not anticipating much outside of that so 20 you could um you know this is kind of a PR Communications thing we got to make sure people know but um you know it's a lot hey I want you to do this I want you to grade this this was different you know and we take pictures of everything beforehand so we know exactly what the site was like um but in order to get the project to to move along um the city ends up doing a lot of this work irrigation repair you know we get some instances where people take it upon themselves to repair the irrigation and then send us a bill and it's like no no this isn't how this works but um you know for the sake of the project and getting it done in a timely manner and final accepting it um we have done that recently and in the past as well so what we're looking for is discussion potentially Direction and if the direction is to kind of put the the residents on notice that hey this stuff that's in the RightWay people might not even know what the RightWay is you know so it's you know a lot of people think I own up to the curb well no it's actually you know three feet back 10 feet 15 you know whatever it is that's a problem but you should know um you should know that so you're kind of putting the the onus on the property owner to know where the actual RightWay line is and then if they have anything in there they would have to proactively get that moved before the project um and then if we would go in there and there's something in there and we you know damage it during the project it wouldn't be the city's responsibility to repair so the reason I'm for doing this but not in 20125 is because we already as you know tonight we're going to be awarding the bids and construction could start as early as June I think I mean you know and so that doesn't give any current homeowners that are in this ground in 2025 enough time to move anything that they might have and like um like Jasper said there really isn't any dis here I mean it's it's if any it's would be very Min I mean that would be plenty of time we tore up our back car they we called and they came out and moved our from car line exactly when we wanted to I mean if you find out now you can schedule it for May and get it done um and and ideally if people have to move it once we we'd say put it on your property but then have your irrigation heads water that area but not actually have it be in the area so there's ways around it it's just a lot of times they put the irrigation line right at the curb line and then shoot it back you know towards the house or whatever so there's a lot of this um I know that it's been a somewhat frustrating point on our end um you know because it does does delay it's a lot of work it's a lot of extra work for our engineering um well engineering technician or WSB whoever's doing construction Administration it's a it's a lot of extra work so does our city building code prohibit building stuff in there building yeah well it prohibits you from putting it in there but people do right yeah yeah so it's it's kind of this I don't know if it's a gray area but it's unenforced a lot of people do it um this would be a clear indication from from city council hey inforce the ordinance don't allow people to do it well one of the suggestions I would have is that when a building government comes in to actually make the owner the property owner if it is property owner a lot of times it's a builder but make them aware that hey do not put this in the right way don't put your fences Invisible Fences and your irrigation systems in the right away because you may have to move it eventually for the sprinklers can't we include that when we check the soil and everything to make sure there's no sprinkler along in it a lot of times that's done after we do our inspection the irrigation installed so lot times we'll do like a final grading in the fall and they'll install the irrigation in the spring after the grading permit spin so sometimes yes a lot of times no but I think it's it's you know personal responsibility of the of the homeowner if we let them know and I think we're trying to be reasonable with alerting them and providing them the information you know we put it on our website on social media you know things like that to try to get people to be aware um but there are a lot of people out there that don't don't know what the right away is where the line is we we give people that um complain about when we do a road um what is it called not Rite but anyhow the little Stones yeah coing and then uh people call and say it's all over my yard well it's like you know foot beyond the curb and they think it's their yard it's like no it's not too bad it's there you can Mo it if you want but I do think we should keep reposing trees though if the residents wanted yeah yeah with trees I don't think that's going to change the do you want I mean do you agree we should have them move it and do you want to move it this year next year6 sense that okay so in the meantime we're going to start making it known that hey if you have a street project coming and your stuff is in the right way it yeah it okay and we can incorporate that into some of the the meetings the neighborhood meetings that we have to make sure that they understand that so everybody on the project should know now there will be a lot of people that still have stuff in the right away that you know we need to make sure they understand what that is try to educate all right okay then next um water treatment plan options and discussion Aaron you are up all right I got her here here you go sir all right I'm back so um so an update I guess from last meeting um I guess there are some questions on design size are we designing too big of a facility so review some of the water system planning uh work that we've done to try to give a little bit better sense for your future demands and some of the assumptions we made uh we'll talk about some of the filter options that estimated cost what we looked into and then we have so and I understand the chart of the left is a little small but it's the best I could do tiny is the word um but when we started u when we did the water system plan we looked at met counil um projections we used 2040 there 2040 projections which is the best we had to date um and that basically uh we let us to assume we have 3800 households served by the utility in 2040 90% of those Smalls would be on water and then following 2040 and this is for your entire city uh following we assumed 100 new homes a year 90% of those would be T so that's some of assumptions that went into water demand um development by 2080 we assume the city would be fully developed at about 21,600 people and 17650 so um also in some of our growth projections we looked at what we call peing Factor so this is important as we get into some discussions later on but essentially that's the ratio of your max day demand uh against your average day so between 2019 and 2023 the city Minister has average to 3.6 speaking Factor um for their South system this is just for the South system now uh you can see on like the image there the green is the South the blue is the north system so we're not focus on that right now for reference the DNR when it comes to water supply plant typically recommends a factor of 2.6 that's very common Metro Community so you guys are about a whole point higher than most communities so I think you know that I'm just trying to give you a sense that's a that's an average I know there's been Summers where we have been even higher than that so we take our population projections so if we just look at the cell system take our population projections we take our again is small um we take the average gallon per capita per day times the modulation projections and the times the peaking Factor gets us to our Max day so that's how we come up with what we think you're going to use in in the hottest day of the summer that's what we have to design to so the green is the historical and then the white is everything projected for and this this was from an older study so 2024 that we now know but uh we projected a about 1360 Gall per would be the highest demand you would see so that projects all the way out into 2080 um so if we if we're looking just at the South Zone the Kings Point water plant will produce 1,000 gallons a minute and in 2050 we would need an additional 1,700 gallon per minute your max statement so we use 2050 as kind of the new reusable planning Target for T infrastructure so that's why I highlighted that because I think it's important for reasonable planning and fild the 28 Bo so 1,700 Gall per minute would get us uh assuming storage is a separate issue assum we had enough storage additional 1,700 Gall additional so we want to be pumping 27 or filtering 2700 yes additional 1,700 Beyond that's assuming at 3.6 and that's going out to 2050 yes that would get us to 2050 okay so you've seen this graph or this chart before but that red line that's the 1700 Gall per minute so that's where it would get us to um if we would design the 2100 Gall per minute that would get us to about 260 so it's an additional 10 going back to the peaking fact now if we reduce our peaking factor to 2.6 which is the DNR recommendation that moves that that reduces the demand in 2050 by 700 so then we would only need a000 per it's important for later discussions because I'm trying to kind of braacket what you guys potentially might need in the future um so if I go back to that chart you can see that green line the P Factor .6 that's basically the trend here on you keep your current peaking Factor if we move to a 2.6 peaking factor that pulls you down to the rim so you can see what that means for the length that this infrastructure will provide the service that needs to provide that when reducing your peaking Factor significant down to 2.6 you get a lot more life or infrastructure you have well life but you can service more people you can service more people you're able to it's less yes right so again I wanted to show you just give you a perspective of how big should we build for this wooden Co and how optimistic are we that we can drive that peing factor now and how quickly we're going to grow so a question because we're talking peaking factors which means irrigation since now going forward we're talking about um requiring developments to put in um storm water ponds and pumping from storm water ponds rather than using ours so how can we I don't know how you can do this I'm not the expert you are how can you factor that in because we might be at that 2.6 with going forward you know does that make sense yeah and we look at the pp Factor kind of an average of the community but we all know that there's portions that use more and portions that right so what you're speaking to is anyone going forward is not going to be an instal system for Iration so they're naturally going to have a much lower be factor which will over time delute your 3.6 factor and pull that down you're never going to get rid of current people that are on the system right um so you're always going to have the load we you currently have but you're you'll naturally bring that teaching Factor down um so you're just deluding what much um so with that sorry more questioning Factor we had like a longterm that number from the DNR a longterm one that's looking at the uh average rainfall for The Last 5 Years particular dry compared to the a longterm rainfall between cities and I think 2023 was particular dry just recent things I've been looking at that was one of the drier uh years so which doesn't surprise me that your P Factor was that year so so that definitely drove off your average a little bit but the 2.6 that the DN recommends is um it's just kind of a global like recommendation it doesn't not specific to so it's a Target it's a Target know you're going to be high some years lower than some years but that's Target you know what we did last year4 give me a second um so in to answer maybe so climatologists with global warming and so on um they're anticipating actually to have um not more rainfall but more heavy events so in other words um in fact we're seeing that already with um when we do our stor water Pond um designs they're already requiring different um events it used to be every 100 Year event or whatever and and so then now they they know that they have to design it differently because we get more um extreme extreme thank you rain events so not necessarily less rain it's just going to change how much we get when if that makes sense yeah you'll have you'll be wetter and drier and hotter right more green BS right maybe um La last year 3.4 so a little bit lower than 20 23 but still more than 2.6 and then the other thing too to keep in mind is some actually there are some already in Woodland Cove that have the storm water Pond system and and going forward um most of the development is going to be in this in the southern system and they're going to be required to be on storm water ponds as well so I'm sure like you said here it's going to dilute it come down a bit Plus what's happening too is when you first build your house people are putting in this sod you you're watering enormous amounts you know I mean just ridiculous um whereas once those have been established then you're going to start watering less so even the ones that are currently in wood that's say the ones that are currently on uh City water for irrigation they're going to be watering only if they change their settings which we found out two years ago a lot of people didn't and so we're that's education and and so on and going to continue working on that but um and you know from the engineering standpoint we struggle to be optimistic because we need to design a system that is prepared for the worst day we ever going to have assuming everyone does the wrong thing so you know we have to keep that in mind when we're designing these systems but uh for you and needing to make decisions on planning and infrastructure Investments understanding kind of the assumption this goes a long way to least help us so um so summing all that up I think 2050 is a reasonable planing it's 25 years it's the length of typical bonds um when we look at the projections of within the range of those peing factors between a th000 gallons per minute and 1,700 gallons per minute would be your reasonable targets for additional capacity not consideration of storage um so we're recommending you know considering a f based water PL construction to try to help manage the capital cost but also um to provide the C you need um and some of the discussions we had last meeting were steel filters or concrete filters so we looked at that I talked to a couple of suppliers uh and they provided me quotes for Steel fers unfortunately steel is very expensive right now so as you might expect so um get it from CH s and this is kind of what we saw when we had during the initial study that steel filters were expensive which allowed us to go a different direction uh but we looked at it again hoping that we could come up with a um I'll call an incremental kind of expandability option um so we did our best and we went so Item B is the the layout we currently have so that would be a water plant that produces 2 100 gallons per minute it has the 750,000 Gall fear well and it has the larger caring system uh that that's details but so we estimated that was 23.2 mil so um based on um some discussion we had uh with City staff we looked at reducing the clear well down to 600,000 and going to a smaller cing system without a scrubber that's option D so we were able to remove through some just design uh adjustments we are able to remove 1.4 Million by doing that what do you mean with no scrubber that so gas chlorine uh if you ever have a leak um in a on ton system I was recommending a gas scubber so you could address the chlorine gas on site and and if you had a Le if you had a Le if you had with 150b cylinders they're much smaller uh an alternative option is automatic shot that's what you currently have at your K Point PL so we we are able to remove all that equipment and go to 150s instead it's a little bit more complicated for operators it takes a little bit more time to manage that system they're switching cylinders a little bit more but it's smaller less equipment cost a little less cost from equipment um and it doesn't have the scrubber either so that you could add that later you could go to larger cylinders and add a scrubber later you could you could add a choring a bigger choring room front the billing if exped the facility but based on theity of the plant we felt comfortable that we could 50 cylinders we just have more of them um they're smaller so the and the risk of a leak is less didn't we just have a problem at the North treatment the South treatment plant with the cylinders and had to replace them or do something with them not the cylinders um it wasn't the cylinders it was The Regulators for so it was it wasn't a it wasn't like a public safety concern it was just chemical feet there's a leak and you don't have the scers then what happens um so you die I'm just kidding just kidding you work at the fire department all the fire department what's the's the C mitigating the you know fixing it there's a leak um this it's $1.4 million that we're saving by now right so um when you do when you utilize one ton cylinders um if you would have a uh the EPA and ocean require risk management plans to on record to manage that so You' work at the fire department and emergency uh staff to address it that's why we typically recommend a scrubber if you have one tons because of the the amount of area that it would impact the other thing is it's one unit that's leaking whereas if you have 15 PB unit you have multiple units the chances of all of them leaking at the same time are pretty much n unless you whatever so you're thinking there's only one that's going to leak which is much smaller so if you can kind of think in that ter it's one ton is it's got one ton of gas coring 150 P got so it's a factor of quite a bit less so the sphere of impact is quite a bit smaller which which does not require or o what actually does scub do sorry1 million yeah it takes the chlorine gas sucks it into a unit and and scrubs it it removes so it's no longer it's a gas yeah so it so it it's airor okay fling TS to settle so it kind of floats across the ground but that the scrubber essentially sucks in that the gas and neutralizes it so so we we removed those that's option D we went to the smaller system um but that's still 2,100 G water then to look at the steel filter options I removed the concrete uh filters and I added for option C I added one steel filter unit that added um 1.7 million so that got us to 22 half and then I added the second steel unit that we could add the future if needed and that got us to 24.5 so really there was no benefit to go to the steel so my recommendation is option which I came up with is rather than building a 2100 water plant because if you remember the peaking factor fored is between 1,00 and 1700 1700 would be a a reasonable Target that's conservative that we don't change our behavior on peing Factor we stay at a 3.6 we're still covered uh by 2050 for our demand um and it would allow us to reduce some filter concrete filter space in addition to that looking at the layout so and it's hard to see a little bit but the um the filters on the left there we have two sets of of so there's four codes two on the left two on the right what we're recommending is get rid of the left treatment train and make three smaller filds in the right treatment train so you're essentially reducing that much square footage of the facility and you're you're you so you reduce your square footage and you reduce your treatment capacity to 1,700 g a minute ultimately cutting um some cost from that that option D that I showed you so that is probably the best case scenario where we still get a capacity that we can work with we reduce the cost of the facility a little bit more um and there will be plenty of space to the west to expand the future if we want well so would be more there will be more people on on the system to pay for it so that's that's the thing is it's kind of 22 or chck fr8 because now the existing people are actually going to help pay for future people you know so that's why I'm really reluctant to build this so far out you know to even 2050 seems like lot but I I I understand you don't really want to build it less just because then you're building every five years or 2050 is very common for treatment when you're talking treatment plant assign to that with the smaller capacity um how much does that shorten the time period we have to repaint the other tow no storage capacity it's the storage pce so if you're probably reduce the storage of the facility to 600,000 gallons and what I would propose is the the footprint of that that clear well that's within the building footprint we're calling that the pumping chamber that's about 200,000 gallons everything outside of the building would be an additional 400 so 600 total we could we could bid the four additional 400 as a bid alternate could be an easy that's an easy design U that where we can have that chop it off and the contractor can give us a separate number for that additional 400,000 gallons into storage u i estimate it's probably about a million dollar we'll let the contractors actually tell us but um so we could remove a million dollars from the waterly cost by REM storage but that again would sign you'd have to invest that in future storage very soon after that no um and um and again building this water plant would allow us to rehab King's Point Tower um right away with the 400,000 if the P's even online because we have the dist pass oh okay even without storage so um so to help I guess provide some context on what the storage means and when you might need additional storage so but we have to answer Peter's question then so if we were to build let's just say with only the 200,000 gallon let's just say storage capacity can we take the Kings Point water tower offline long enough to rehabilitate it you'll have enough you'll have enough pumping capacity at the uh the new C water plant to compensate for the loss in that storage for a short period okay so it'll still give us fire coverage okay is it expensive to do the 200,000 G pumping chamber and the 400 separate or is it the same as if you just did one 600 um in one project or several project one project um it should well it's going to be more expensive to build more storage if that's what you're asking like you're you're taking one big one and making two so is that more expensive than just building the one we would typically do that in design anyways so you can so for maintenance in the future so you can shut down a portion to inspect the clear well we would have some level of baffling and partitioning so that's kind of a natural part of design we would just bid it as alternance you get that in the future so it doesn't really change yeah I think that's a good idea to bid it as an alternate we see the cost I mean and if it's a million let's just say and we're already talking 20 million it's you know maybe it's worth doing now so we can at least look at it would be cheaper than building a new tower so but you could put a clear well you could do the 400 gon clear well underground storage in later you could you could add that after so you could build a 200,000 pumping chamber and then in a couple years add to 400,000 and clear well more it cost it would cost you quite a bit more to it as a standalone project because now you're remobilizing you're re Excavating got all structures so we try to do as as we can in one shot um but we understand sometimes you need to yeah I mean if the 400,000 clearw storage came in at an additional 2 million we might think twice about it but maybe you know it's likely the cheapest storage you're going to purchase because it's got no Coatings it's great it doesn't have any Aesthetics it's it's very simple uh it is going to be the cheapest storage but and so here here was my other question this is kind of getting okay so we we could actually do an inground storage in the future as well we don't need a tower necessarily correct you can build um a GSR Pump Station anywhere in your system that would function the same as cwise it might be a little bit less but I think you have more ongoing um expenses electrical and a small building you have to maintain so but that's something we can look at in the future often times people go to ground store res boards if there's AE concerns they just don't want to look at it or there's another hydraulic so um so if we were looking at storage in your future need and we assume we're at a 3.6 peing Factor uh by 2035 uh you'll if you have the 600,000 gallon clear o at the water plant and 2100 gallon per minute of pumping so we put slightly larger palps inand but still 1,700 Gall per minute of treatment that would last you till 2035 period that's it 10 years 10 years not even because it live until 2026 27 probably so you're eight years of life out of it and then you're going to be at of the assuming you stay at your peing Factor 600 will hold you so then you might as well do the 200 do the 200 storage capacity and then if you have to add storage in eight years then you might as well do you know more than so here's well if you only do the 200 we're we need a tower basically right away yeah right all right so and then I will quit I have so this is at all options and I I cave all this with 3.6 speaking Factor you can change City Behavior this all gets quite a bit better right but I'm not an optimist neither am I so by 2040 if you you would be able to get to 2040 with your storage if you build a 750,000 gallon and you had a 2100 gallon per minute water plant and 2800 G per minute so that would give you an additional 10 year or additional five years of storage or of runway for storage so again you'd have to make you'd have to build the plant we've initially proposed so that's a little bit more EXP so we don't could do do the cost cutting and S with the larg five years additional I think you should do the other one so I'm I'm more optimistic than you Erin I I honestly I'm not I think we do here's here's the thing we don't know how many new homes are going to be coming online we don't know what 10 years so you're saying with the 17700 um treatment uh 600 um storage um um we're talking 10 years at least okay we don't know what happen and we don't know if the 3.6 is going to hold or if it's going to go down or or whatever um and I just I don't want to saddle the existing users with that much debt I see this with all due respect if we had built the cell phone for the incoming wet Cod we wouldn't be having this problem and we wouldn't be settling the new users with it we would already have been paying for it for the last 10 years we would have an adequate one I really really don't want to save a million dollars now and then it's more like it's more than a million the million is just the difference with the clearwell not the larger we're talking about 4 million from 23.2 to 21.8 now we're not doing the steel filters it's too expensive we're basically debating B and D right now so between 23.2 and 21.8 I I to get us to 2040 where we won't have to add storage or build anything else related to water I think it's worth the 1 point four5 million and again this is just an estimate so it could be lower and if I've noticed anything from all of our engineering estimates they tend to be higher than what the bids come back yet that's I'm pretty good at estimating but I'm not a contractor so it doesn't matter whether it's a million what I'm hearing um Aon telling us is that if we do the 600 gallon clear well 600,000 actually not 600 600,000 gallon clearwell that'll take us out for storage to 2050 no 2035 okay 2035 eight years and and with the 1,700 um pumping capacity or filtering capacity right that takes us out to 2050 that's what you need for the 2050 Demand right you'll still have additional storage right between 2035 and 2050 we'll have to build another Tower or storage if we do D we need to build a new tower sometime around 235 which means we would have to start planning it by 20 3132 to get it online by 2035 correct am I right so if we do be the more expensive but not the most expensive we're good till 2040 so we won't need to add any storage and storage discussions until 2037 2038 to get it online in 2040 so all in all like 30 million with everything no not for this but if we have to add something else we will so the there's a lot of things this just so the um water tower having a water tower and the two Wells that we're Drilling and um and Engineering this doesn't include engineering this doesn't include all of the EXT this is just like upside so just the C just the kind of details the option b is also the laring system so so we could re we could reduce the cloring system and remove so the the clear well reduction is about 400,000 so that 23.2 is really 22.8 so if we go to 600 if you go if you go to um yeah if you stuck with the six but all options are with the six well not all but no do we need the larger chlorine system with the 750 should the building a large the 750,000 G clear well does not really get you anything unless you build additional treat so they kind of go hand yeah so you're going to do option b with the reduced caring system at 22.8 million or option D uh with the 600,000 F reduce Coring system and we would uh cut the treatment train off so we' bring we bring option D down a little bit more I do probably closer so if I can compartmentalize this a little bit so do we want for storage let's just talk about that piece do we want the 600 or the 750 750 so you the slide that we about yet was kind of sensitivity analysis if we flatten the curve on the peing factor what is the our storage need look like if we are able to bring that down um even if go back a if it's down to three yeah split the difference 3.2 then we wouldn't need more storage0 we to keep what we have even longer needing more right so we would be good we could push the 2040 days with the 750 even further out yeah well there's a there's a point too where like eron thing 25 years is kind of what you want um anything more than that you're then you're looking at um a lot of cost to maintain it and to repair it and maintenance and things like that but if we can get our peing Factor down and push out needing any treatment any you any on the S system till 2050 which is 25 years that would be great I mean that that would be ideal if we can get the peaking Factor down and then we put the 750 in and we don't need anything for 25 years on the S system if you if you put the 750 in you would also need to build yeah see and so what I'm wondering yeah so you have yeah you don't do the 750 storage without the 2100 filter so you either do the 1700 with the 600 or you do 2100 for the 750 and and the 750 and the 21 and 750 makes sense for 2050 but it we don't have the people to support that that's that's my concern that's that's my concern and and then we have to have a hundred homes a year we have to have that so then you're under that that done and so if you say as Brian was asking if you say we're not at that 3.6 peaking Factor let's say we're somewhere in between the 26 and the 36 that could still take us out with a what ,700 and 600 storage that could still take us out to 2035 or 2040 probably probably closer to 2040 by that time we would know and see what we have in terms of people and homes and developments I don't know it's it's kind of like gambling I wish we had a crystal ball it's not an easy decision um I I think the struggle is anything you do as a second phase is going to be more expensive and that's the big decision that needs to be paid is are you willing to kick that part of the can down the road and pay more need it or in it now but it's going to hurt to invest it now again this is insane amounts of money and I don't say this LLY but for a million and a half right now it seems worth not spending five down the road it's not going to be cheaper and in the in the scheme of 23 versus 21 or 22 and 20 whatever that's not that much money like all of it's over 20 so it's all expensive so one more million on it is not you know it's like 20 cents on a dollar like it's not that much when you look at the whole scheme of it what happens if we don't get 100 people a year then those of us who are on water will be paying a lot but we're paying a lot anyways whether it's 23 million or 21 million my bill is going up a lot hamper the growth that's the question yeah I don't think so people are pretty upset a couple years ago and it was going around with Lov they're very clear that that was their number one issue and some people and I say this with all respect they didn't stop using the water though they complained left and right about the bills but our peing factor it's still 3.4 yeah no I so agree with I'm just saying that this is going to be a huge increase no matter what we do uh and and people are really going to be up that's why I think these meetings are going be oh yeah I think and if I may we depending on the direction we we may have an opportunity to bid some ad alternates that can help rightsize this at the time um you know what we what we really want to accomplish tonight is just to continue that path forward to get to bidding and if the direction and you know Aaron and I have talked is to have you know the base bid be this and then have an add alternate of this and then another maybe another third option you know that would get us to continue to design which we need to do right there's a lot of things that need to happen between now and you know May or June when we would bid um but we need to keep going we kind of need that direction so I think from what I'm hearing is you know we're somewhere in between this option e which is the 1700 um and and maybe 600,000 clear well with the smaller chlorine system up to the kind of a hybrid of D which is the 2100 with 750 and the smaller chlorine system I think we're kind of smaller chlorine system system that's what I would is bigger storage but reducing floring regard okay yeah um so you're talking about um so we're saying 600 and 1700 and 600 is there a possibility to have like a an alternate bid for the 21 no that' be two big packages it'd be like configuring two different buildings basically if you recall we would Lop off that whole right right so and we reconfigure most build so it gets really compated I mean I I I totally get kath is saying um I I wish we knew I mean if you look at the um numbers here in your packet if we have to bond for 25 million we're talking a 94.2 6% increase over three years that's a 30% increase in water water rates over over the next three years so and that if I may and that's assuming no growth so if we grow at 100 homes a year you know that could go down we'd have to factor that in but that's just a snapshot in time of right now based on the revenue we generate yeah so so jper we were chatting today it's like $700 a household more so we have about 2200 accounts and let's just use a round number of $22 million because it's easy it's $10,000 per account over 20 years plus interest so take that into account um it's basically 500 to$ 700 probably like $700 a year a year for 20 years that's like in addition to what they're paying right now it's all right so we need to we need to wrap this up we are so Brian where are you at I know you're really good at into this where are you at with this uh so the so we talked about now was basically between B and D that basically 1700 was 600 storage or 2100 with 750 storage uh both options with still have the smaller cylinders for for CH yes so so B would be two 22.2 million if you do the smaller chlorine and D would be 21.8 so you're basically getting I think another another 150,000 in the clear well for what is that $400,000 which gets us for sure out to 2050 maybe longer if we get our peaking fion down sorry the the you know the spreadsheet with all leing factors is that a workable document where you can put in like send it and type in like 3.4 and 3.6 is 3.6 not right now but know Jasper and then he could forward it so we can all play around with numbers absolutely right no no I know um so I guess that right um's b or d it's a letter b d or E I would say e is an option too I mean it's it's at 1.7 you just have to be okay with future conversations about potential water system expansion just be aware of it um if we do build a lot more houses or we you maybe we're at 100 or more then that time will come sooner than later for that addition additional storage so just be prepared for that conversation if you go with an e um you know D or B the 600,000 to 750,000 that really addresses the storage need until at least 2040 assuming a 3.6 peing factor which we hope we can get down so it gets us to 2050 which is 25 years see I think going out to 2040 is kind of the r we should go because I think otherwise we're just stradling too much debt for the existing users and and we don't know I mean we're talking 15 years from now we don't know what that's what what prices are going to do what interest is going to do what what housing is going to do that's kind of my you want to be that get us to 2040 D gets us to 2035 yeah so it's eight years yeah I think you're right yeah so so the 750 gets us 750 have 750 to get us to 2040 and then if we get our PE Packer down we can push us to 2050 which would be another 10 years which would be awesome because then we wouldn't need to discuss that till you know anyhow that's kind of where I'm at whatever the 204 and that's the 23 yes 22 it'd be 22.2 if we red if we go to the smaller chlorine system let's see more storage 22.2 larger clear well larger capacity small fling get you as far as you can on storage and treat sorry should this question first slide but does the Metro Council estimates jive with your guys experience um well that's a whole different conversation um they've really so for the 2050 plan they've really they've reduced us a little bit on as far as our rate of growth but they've done that to the whole metro area as a whole that rate of growth is decreasing is what they're projecting now you know they're they're projecting that we're only going to build 35 houses you know as you get closer to 2050 I don't I don't know I mean maybe they know something we don't know but um we have available land we have infrastructure you know I don't I don't think we're going to get down to 35 that was more like David can fill in that's like post um 2009 2010 times but they're saying that's going to be the existing you know basically from 30 to 50 so short that you feel like the House serve that we make I would say their their current projected imagine 2050 plan yes I would that's what I would say um because it's 35 hous it's on average between 2030 and 2050 30 35 houses a year what 2040 PL it had us at 14,400 for 2040 so they they've really taken a step back and we've asked them and they're just they haven't really given us a clear answer but they're increasing our density requirements so yes there's things aren't driving so yeah we're gonna wrap this up in about three minutes their estimates are overly conservative estimate Global folks yeah well so so that their estimate has come down significantly for us here's the other thing if let me ask you this Ain if we go off for bid with the 750 storage capacity also 2100 filtering capacity um and it comes back I mean way high what would it take to reduce it to go back to the six 17 and 600 how what would it cost to do that and and actually scale it back well you kind of have half of it Reen engineered right now don't you well we we I mean we've you know sketched out options we to redesign because I'm just worried that if this comes in and let is rather than 228 or 23 and it comes in at 28 then what are we going to do right drawing that's well that's what I'm asking is what is it going to cost it's going to cost us another million just to re drive if you will so that's that's the other consideration I'm sorry happen with any of them though I mean even if we do e like it come back astronomically High I mean that was you know early which I love that that is kind of the benefit as you avoid getting that far down that P right and being just like shocked by right is they give you costs so if we truly have that concern um we should bring a Contractor on board before we did it and actually get a all AR estimate um and we can do that and just have them estimate like 75% or even detail estimate so we're not shocked how much that yeah I I like that idea because I'm just afraid that we're going to get sticker shock and then we're going to go oh my gosh what can we do now so um we can do that we have a couple contract in charge to estimate I know that might kind of put us out a few more weeks but you guys are you you like that idea what what if I may sorry I think we can do I mean it sounds like we're leaning more towards a b yeah to get us to 2040 I think we can just say eron get the get the estimate get the contractor to do the estimate you know start continuing to design B and we can keep going um in conjunction with it just so we don't delay it you know we've already kind of delayed about a month or so from the bid when we were you know I want to get started this summer fall you know otherwise we kind of get to the point where it's we could have you know so I think we can do it in conjunction I guess is long story short all right that and you're still not fired all right with that we we need to be because there a little open for our Poli she knows staff reports yes I want to R talk a little bit about the wedding venue yes and see if get some direction as far as what we want to do specially that permit or just say no you know just some direction because we don't have a meeting for mom we were going to try to work it in here but but it could ran out of time yeah the Farm Winery no no one one spe a neighbor wants to get married there did and it's as you can imagine caused a stir amongst the neighborhood now because she she did the right thing and tried to reach out to everyone and say I want to do this my daughter wants to get married there and