okay um it's 5:30 um so I'm going to call the meeting to order are we recording yes okay thank thank you you sit closer to us yeah you could you could actually she wants to be Incognito all right so uh this is the work session for Minista June 17th 2024 present this evening uh myself uh Lisa wh and the mayor and then council members present are Kathleen ref and McGregor Peter vickri and staff pres we have um Alison fski WSB engineer um and um an what's your last name again my um city clerk and then um Brian Grim Finance director and David AEL community development director the others are absent this evening so we have um number of items uh we're going to talk about budget Levy considerations Park dedication fee and swamp update and if we have time Kathleen and I will give you a quick update on our meeting with a2s and regarding um and we'll explain the cam um so with that um handing over to Brian yes yeah thanks Madam mayor and councel so hopefully everyone had a chance to review digest the the council uh work session packet for the uh the budget information I tried to um I guess summarize some items or get some some high points and more just to generate discussion with the council as far as you know what things were sort of I don't want to say locked into but I sort of locked into or committed to as far as you know obviously Union contracts and some of those things are are in place through the second year of a three-year contract for all of those for 2025 um and then things that more of the council has discretion with as far as um you know listed you know roads adding staff or or those type of things is obviously generated you know through personel committee via the or you know up the council so I tried to add just a few other I guess um informational pages to sort of help with the discussion too um but um maybe I say I start with the the memo and just um if anyone has any questions I just maybe ask as as yeah we'll just we'll just ch inett informal yeah yeah exactly but yeah I guess that first item down at the bottom of page two I guess is items I guess I you know categorizes you know items the city's committed to obviously compensation one of the biggest one you know all cities you know organizations deal with um basically just based on you know the you know the not the union contracts I think are between like three and a half and 5% depend you know for the second year depending you know between Public Works and and police and that's the sergeants and I guess even are the CSO unions um so you you look at that impact it's you know roughly about you know 4% or 240,000 you know to the levy impact there um yeah is the other items are are are you know more related I guess to you know that um Insurance slash you know benefits types items I mean General liab bilan workers comp has been you know going up pretty substantially you know the nice thing is we we've had a a really good experience mod experience modification so that's kept that workers and going up as much as it could have I think our our rating is like at a 75 which means we pay three fours of what we you know a reg our organization has regular or the average workplace incidents or injuries so and that's helped keep that down but it's still it's still increasing um the property liability same there cafeteria plan we'll probably talk about that more as we get into the budget but you know at the insurance we'll we'll get more information like in late June July as far as at least an initial uh estimated impact of what's happening in the insurance health insurance industry or realm so um so there's that and then um and yeah I don't think there's a whole lot of wiggle room here unless you find out from the insurance company yeah whatever that it's not going to go up that much so correct yeah and then yeah and then lastly I just had the inflationary impacts um there as far as just you know that's you know anything from fuel utilities Etc it just seems like I know they say that it's trying to soften but I know they they've delayed doing any rate you know adjustments or decreases at the even the Federal Reserve level just because they still want inflation to come down I know I even had that individually today I had part of the day off to uh look at a at a vehicle and a vehicle cost or actually made a purchase because it was getting too uh hard to for four people to drive three vehicles in the family so but uh I don't know car pooling doesn't always work what rate did you get oh as far as or H the financing of the vehicle like just under 4% like 3.9 60 Equinox or Equinox Equinox okay so sorry to go on that little but just even more as a as an individual or personal example that inflation is is still yeah painful yeah costs are there so so ultimately yeah I guess at the top of Page Three there you know if you look at a subtotal you know it's probably five five and six% you know 350,000 so that's almost like a a baseline as far as what we we need to do so um item two you know I think we obviously um at one of the last meetings we had um I guess yeah the we have been using fund balance I guess I'll start with that um and we've used what 193,000 this year as budgeted and we'll see when the actual numbers come in but um the the good item that we adopted you know was either at the last meeting and the one before that was the um the Henman County taking on the um assessing valuations valuation services so that is going to save us about 200,000 on the Citywide Levy so if we sort of just apply that there we can sort of um basically get back to a starting point of you know Balan budget pretty much you know should be pretty structurally Balan there we do have to get to a balanced budget um yeah yeah right so um so that's some a good thing so sort of a an offset are available that those expenses will come off for the tune of about 200,000 and that'll help plug that budget difference or whatever so um I know another um item I think I think there's the Personnel committee meeting tomorrow right as far as that and I think um so uh B there um is uh depending on if there'd be any additional employees you know added whether what what I was going to say here in this category is you know we can't even hire the 15th officer I'm not sure that we should be budgeting for a 16th officer I mean it's been we're already halfway into the year and we still don't have a 15th officer so um again to try and kind of keep our our increase Levy increase I would say don't budget for a 16th officer until 2026 you know kind of I like that um and then the public works I think you know maybe hiring a public works person obviously we're going to hire somebody to replace Mike yes correct so that's that's not a part of this um and then I would assume whomever we're hiring isn't going to be making the same money as Mike was well we've already replaced Mike I think tomorrow's personel Comm meting we're talking about a supervisor position okay that's I'm assuming where the budge for public work is coming a little bit and then yeah whether I guess just to even have like a general discussion with Council if and obviously yeah during the budget process whether there would be the need to add another public work's employee obviously some of that would you know what would be their you know we sort of added you know to the water department and sewer and and done some I guess more not not making a whole department but segmentation of of those so um but whether there's a need for I guess any other you know additional employees in that area of Public Works I guess that would be ultimately for Gary to present and personel committee the council to work it out and discuss it maybe but if you do maybe it could be a midterm higher y yeah correct you know versus um at the beginning that would save at least 1% or something like that and I think yeah that's where I think I you know with you know the 50 to 150 obviously the public works is probably a little more on the lower end just based on the salary range and the police would be more on the higher end but yeah I think but I'm just thinking if if somebody is added in public works it wouldn't be some it would be an entry level or yeah it would be low usually it just depend sometimes on what type of experience if it's someone that really has you know 10 15 years experience and sometimes we've been doing the collateral on grade three grade four or something so but um obviously yeah decisions the uh the council and things that um yeah be between both the Personnel committee I think even you know see Paul and Gary AR are here they if they really feel strongly or something they would have to make that Cas they can make that case I'm just saying I mean it just seems we we budget it for a 15th officer what last for this year and we're we're not there yet you know so I just doesn't point to budget for another 16 in 2025 W be likely won't have the 15th in 2025 um and then their next one here's my take on the next the the financial software okay here's the thing I think there's things that we need okay and then things that we want and I think this is a want and I think we should put this off we don't need it next year I don't think we should put money aside for it next year but maybe think about it in future years again because we're looking at you know 9 10 12% increase so I think this is a want for right now well that's my the concern is when it becomes a need like the cameras and this way we'd have the money set aside to use for it so I I I don't know if this would qualify under an equipment certificate but that might be something you could do with um with an equipment certificate it's more softt related so it might be a little bit of a gray area yeah but then uh the other thing to consider is when we talk about the CIP I think we should add continue adding to that so that eventually so you could take it out of the CIP budget too potentially but yeah you'll probably see in August yeah there's some there might be some a big ticket know Paul will probably have a squad or two and garyi I think had something at least in his ponary CIP for you know I can't remember exactly what it was was you know potentially A2 $300,000 one of their bigger pieces of equipment right so that's the only you know hard part is as far as you know adding that to that and what's the best way and I think it's the reason I mean eventually we really should and we should have been doing this more so but we need to wean ourselves off of equipment certificates unless the rates go down to 1% again or what something like that then it makes sense but when the rates are you know four five% you really don't want to be borrowing money are we talking about the the financial software yeah well kind of it's kind of both yeah because they be funded usually through that I had a good conversation with with Jasper today a long one on this because I worked for a 1.6 billion doll company that did go through Oracle and it was an absolute fabulous disaster um that really hurt the company badly and I but in again was I don't understand why we need $300,000 worth of financial software I'm not getting it so I mean basically it'd be an all-encompassing system so it' be you know our our general ledger our payroll our utilities and pretty much there's these conversions are usually one to twoe processes so it's you know it's obviously the uh software whether it's you know most of them are what subscription as a service now or whatever but a lot of it is comes into the setup the training the the implementation of it you know so you know the 300,000 might be a little on the the higher end but I mean it it colleagues I've talked to that have have gone through this process and it's one of these things where I think it would be beneficial to do especially as the city grows we might we're probably going to outgrow our banion sofware we have right now I know it's it's it's a difficult transition so in some ways it's like if the council says no I'm not going to be like a to upset whatever but um but it is something we probably should look at I mean it'd be nice to probably have converted whether it's by 20 29 or 30 or sometime in the next four or five years it might get to the point where it would just be better for both internal and external users to have a more sophisticated Financial software it's just a matter of trying to set aside some money to whether it's 50 or 75,000 for a couple few you know years and I think you know minimally we probably need you know to think you know 175 200,000 you know in depends probably maybe the high end would be more like you know 250 300,000 so and well that makes some sense go ahead so what what would be the advantages of you must have some idea the software you want what what does it do that the current software doesn't do I mean our current software is more access based so it's you know some of the reports it generates for both even um you know just internal users for the Departments as well as like what we can put online I mean right now we're doing some things where you got to sport to excel to make things like look better and stuff where obviously a lot of the better Financial software have a lot you know um more bells and whistles more bells and whistles that can even do um you know like with the you know probably you know might be able to do a little more with some of the utility stuff we do or whatever but I think you know some of that we've been able to integrate you know with the uh our itron software as far as you know more reads and and things like that you know so there is things that we're sort of doing in the that we can do but at some point I we're going to need to almost do like a an overall Finance conversion versus just sort of add-on here supplement there but here's where oh I was just G to say about the billing I'm talking with Jasper if we want to ever switch to the monthly water billing we need better yeah yeah yeah that's guess what I was trying to we've been able to do something but what I'm what I'm getting at is that right now what are we leving for our CIP 150,000 yes and if we add 50,000 every year to that in very short order we are going to have 300,000 400,000 every year that we are levying for CIP and you can use that money to buy the software so that's and then if if it happens to fall in a year where you need equipment for public works or police then you can use an equipment certificate for that purchase so that's why I'm saying is I think we're kind of double levying for this that's that's to me it's a CIP it's Capital it's Capital outlay it's um and why wouldn't we just use our CIP budget for that we could yeah we could use some of like our existing cash especially you know cash Levy or whatever and then I know the only thing I know when when Gary is back here from the budget stuff in August I know he's ran into you know and I you know see it in through the the claims that come through and through the financial software you know the some of the increased repairs and maintenance costs on some of the equipment so yeah I mean to I guess the mayor's point you know we have to do a bigger equipment certificate in a certain year potentially to and Gary's going to have to be the advocate for that you know does he need to replace you one piece of big equipment or one or two you know over two or three years or whatever and that's where we just have to we have to balance that but I see you almost would set aside some of that money is what you're almost saying from that well if if we're budgeting um again if it's 150,000 now and we budget we add to that in 2025 50,000 now it's 200 in 26 it's 250 in 27 it's it's uh 300 in 28 it's 350 I mean so it will continue to grow as long as we stick to we stick to that that would be the only thing because some years it's always easy to almost that's why I've been preaching we have to do this yeah yeah no I no I think that's I think that's fair yeah so I I'd say we for sure W to I guess maybe make sure that we up the CIP Levy from 150 to 200 even if we can you know other set aside some we have a higher Baseline next year so even if you added to your CIP budget or Levy 60,000 for 2025 and you added to the roads because I still think we add need to add to the roads you added to the roads 100,000 that is a total of 2% so or two and a half perc and so if you if you did everything here eliminating the um the the financial software that's a 9% increase correct yeah I think yeah pretty much here we so it's below the 10 which I think would be good if we can be below a double digit but yeah so like yeah so based of that initial presentation try to keep it around that yeah n n and a half maybe I mean see where things come in but um I I to me budgeting you know 75 to 100,000 into Financial software it's almost like double dipping so double double how do you say okay yeah I see what you're saying yeah it's um no I think we can strategize for online yeah so and there might be you proposing we do the road Levy at them the road Levy would we'd add a 100,000 so that would be um I think for 20 no no it's at we're actually levying 850 because it's 350 for the debt Levy and then 450 um for so 800 so then next year we would then add another 100 which would be 900 right but for the actual roads Levy not the roads project from last year like it would go to from 450 to 550 on spreadsheet on page right correct yes yeah yeah corre Brian was saying kind of flat you know not increasing it and I think we should continue to increase that yeah that's the other thing you know we're going to have to look at is we've been talking about um another bond in 25 or 26 probably not till 26 and that's so if keep in mind if you do another bond in 26 that's going to gobble up a lot of that that 450 500 too so we have to keep that in mind as well maybe maybe that bond isn't going to be until 27 you know we have to see how that but I don't I I think if we just leave it then we're not making Headway and we need to make Headway in that oh I know that I don't want to go down as low as we did last year so yeah and I think that was part of just the balance but to get it to the 12% we had landed at last year um because I think that's even where we shaved off at the end was I think was we had the road we not be down 50,000 or whatever which I mean just is fine and I think we're doing a decent amount and and it'll be nice to see once we balance up the 2023 projects there may even be some dollars that we can maybe shift over to the the current debt fund as well as maybe even a little bit to our our road maintenance fund where our balance is like one and a half million and they now might be able to be 1.71 higher you know or something so which I think I think we're we're sitting a lot better than Ro it's fun you know several years ago or whatever so but I know there's there's more than enough to do out there too so right that's the thing that's yeah and it doesn't get any cheaper so um okay so yeah so I know yeah they said you probably going to you know top of P or I supposed to be covered I guess then have the roads and then the CIP so one thing we'll probably I mean once we present the the Capital Equipment plan and in August is we will have probably the opportunity to issue the bond later this year to cover the the the wells you know we'll need to finance that as well as that um the water main wind Wen C you know for you know 3 know 7 750 so there might be an opportunity to tack on an equipment certificate maybe you know this year and then set aside some more money out of the cash Levy for next I mean there's ways to right to potentially balance it between 25 and 26 um we may have to also float a bond in 25 for the treatment plant correct yeah so and then we can see what what interest rates are going to do if we don't have to float an equipment certificate this year interest rates might be going down they're talking about it yeah at least one week this year maybe more next year yeah so we can kind of keep tabs on that but my my comment on some of your taxes per capita comparison is um oh sure you know and it seems like we're kind of cherry-picking some of the cities and I think what we should do is if we're going to compare we should compare the cities that like surround men Trista like it should include St Bonnie and Shorewood and independ and if you're going to include Long Lake then you got to include Maple plane you know and in other I mean I I get Medina because they're very similar to us in terms of makeup but corkran would be another good one to compare us to I just think it looks a little bit cherry pick to me but I'm not saying you did that intentionally but no yeah I think if we included sure would it wouldn't be much difference I mean to me I guess I I don't know what the council thinks but I think you know Oro Mound and Vina are of are most comparables I I would say it's NE well I shouldn't maybe even make that commentary but I don't think St Bonnie I think they I mean they're running into problems with their financials and and yeah you know as far as you know so I don't know how much benefit it shows to you know but the other thing too I wanted to point out is um it's not a good comparison to do a a per capita thing because you don't pay your property taxes on a per capita basis it's just a comparison I get that but I still think yeah I mean because I know some like to look at the tax rate but to me it's like how much are you spending per person your residence I think is yeah it's my personal preference better okay I mean that's so I know I mean yeah I think if if we added in a couple of these other ones I think we still would would I think we would but I think it would look like we're not trying to cherry pick but anyhow just that's fine so yeah it was more just to at least set some of the at least show that I think we definely aren't I know when back in when I started here in 0607 I think we were maybe more at the top of that rate what is our tax rate now do you know is it it's under 20% it's like 19 19 and a half or something so so even with that metric I think we compare we we compare very I guess yeah to me I I mean if you compared us to Mound on the tax rate we yeah we're way below them so no yeah and there yeah there's might be a couple others that are less than us but I think um it's pretty few and far between I guess to me I this would be something I think that the council could uh be I don't know whether it's be proud of you know if anyone tries to say we're too high a tax City I guess pretty quick you can come back and say well we can't control the county we can't control the schools what do you if you look at on a factual basis and this is right they can go to the state auditor's office and look at it I think it's something that um everyone as council members can say that that's not a factual statement if they say their city taxes are gu sir so okay yeah I guess comments questions let's move on to the next one Park dedication so at the um so this has come up a couple times and I just thought real quick we'll give staff Direction um the park education fee I'm not the park commission was this has happened a couple of times when the a subdivision happen on Parcels by the lake for instance so what happens is there's a percentage but then it's capped at 25,000 so it's a percentage of the value of the of the lot and then it's capped and and we're not the park commission isn't saying redo the whole park dedication thing not at all they're just saying should we look at that cap because that cap was established like 20 years ago do you know I yeah I mean it's been that my whole time here yeah it it's it's like 20 years ago maybe even more so they were just wondering if the counil doesn't want to considering revisiting that cap that that portion of the ordinance and maybe raising it to 35 or 40 or whatever and we'd have to do some comparisons to see what other cities are doing yeah all right all right then then swamp yes this is always the most interesting one Speaking of spending money no um so uh swamp program the storm water Asset Management program the city um has this program to um that provides scores of the storm water ponds throughout the city both public and private um as an indicator of uh storm water ponds or best management practices that might need attention um so the city has done a really good job as far as the the public side of it all of our public ones were a um we're at a a score um that's higher than 65 which is kind of what we talked about being hey if it's 65 we should maybe take a look at it so anything public we're good on um The Challenge comes that the majority of these assets um in the city are privately owned and maintained and so we've we've reached out um and with some varied success as far as getting some information back um but it's just bringing it back to council for discussion on you know what would the council like to see staff doing with the swamp scores as far as looking at some of these these privately owned um best management for bmps um in the city so the I kind of set the stage as far as where we're at right now and where we might be going with regulatory agencies so um the next permitting cycle for the PCA comes up in 2025 so next year and there have been Rumblings that included in that next um permit renewal will be some element of hay cities you have to make an effort with regards to privately owned bmps now what that looks like I don't know um but certainly I I think you know talking to my colle minist has certainly been doing that already now we'll see what the permit language says when the time comes so we can cross that bridge when we get there if I drive 100 miles west of here would any of this pertain any of the ponds out there um I don't believe so because it has to do with the side the the size of the community I I I can't believe unless I have this have misunderstood this whole thing but what you're telling me is you're going to have some sort of magic thing where you're going to tell people with private ponds that they have to do something and have another assessment on top of it the roads that we already do well we're only talking about ner ponds okay so so we're only talking about the storm water runoff ponds that were created when a development was put in but if they're private they're owned by well because we are ultimately responsible ultimately the city is responsible I I think we can take a step back to some extent with minist I I hear what you're saying with regards to these privately owned basins um and and I didn't do the calculation ahead of time but when we look at minus to being a growing Community you've got a lot of storm water ponds in in Woodland Cove I mean that took up a few pages of the report for for Woodland Cove in and of itself and Hunter Crest being the two bigger ones um and those are new enough that we have the documentation saying hey homeowners association you're responsible for maintaining these I think that there's um that there's also some outliers some older developments that are maybe on the cusp of you know is there an agreement in place or not we'd have to do some digging to do that we haven't done that um broad brush for the city so I I think that my my long answer to this is that I think that there are a lot of privately owned um ponds that already have the documentation in place that you know you're responsible for this now whether or not the HOA management company or the boards know of that that's a good question you know we can certainly and we've been trying to to have this as an education piece certainly Hunter Crest ho they know they know and they've been budgeting for it uh wood Point knows to and been asking and W Co knows so I think I and I I think that um you know hindsight being 2020 with that question coming up um to to state that you know for the council to know like a a lot of these pawns the HOAs know about now are there some private ones where they don't know about it I would be willing to bet yes um and so that's where we have a little bit you know if if the the mpca permitting goes down that route and we are obligated to do some of that and the P the swamp score is below that 65 threshold that we've set um then we might have a little bit more work coming out of us but just just knowing you know just knowing what the the city's already done and and if this is coming through for the first time with this next permit go around I don't know what that language is going to look like I think it like I said what what we're hearing is it'll probably be to make an effort I think that's already in place um it it could be I don't know the permit inside and out I've been relying on um my colleagues to tell me already says cities have to make an effort and that's why we've been doing this yeah but I think what Alison's saying is the the rumor is is they're going to actually crack down F I mean thus far we there's been warnings and we we got audited one year but Rumblings are that they're going to get more serious about it yes we've done things but likely it's not good enough what I'm gathering is what I'm seeing there are larger communities kind of where I live and such where they're they're now taking an effort in actually doing maintenance which also tells you something they haven't been now they are Chan Prairie you can see projects around the community where they're cleaning these out and doing them to her point there everyone's nervous about what's coming okay and what we what you're seeing is all HOA oriented no yeah yeah private ones private and public how much that cost a lot it just depends on how much s there how to get in one there's a corner prominent Corner in Chanhassen that was all trees and fences and Landscaping that people just went and did over the years and all that had to come out took it all out of there cut all the escors in there cleaned it all out regraded it um right by to Total Wine behind the health the health care facility there in Chanhassen it looks completely different it had to you know but 20 25 years of nothing ever happening there and they had to come in and do it well I know from talking with Ellison and ring It Through Rivers being on the wed District those PLS are really important um they capture a lot of phosphorus from these developments you know Brian told me one pound of phosphorus will turn 500 pounde in the lake and so it's really important that those are maintained and if they're not maintained everything's just running right through them and the of the phos is going into the ls Rivers so um I think it's really important to get these up to Reon it is going to be expensive I think it's really needed so for that point like the first one on here is the Jennings c one from 1987 it's got sore 19 um we don't know for sure if it is the HOA or not it isn't so it isn't that would fall on us then to so how much would that cost well so what we what initially so that one I know isn't because we've done work on that one um in the past and um it was our responsibility and so we we've we've worked on that one in the past um so my I'm 95% certain that what made you say that what made you say it's because when the or so back in the 90s when they were um subdividing and and Jennings Cove was done in the 90s uh one of the ones that was done in the 90s they didn't do an overlay in other words now what we do is and David can explain it much um better but now what we do is when a devel comes in we do a taxing overlay District so that if the HOA does not and then we make it clear that those ponds are theirs and if the HOA doesn't take care of it we already have the authority and ability to go in and and fix these uh ponds and then we just tax those um specific properties so we started doing that in the early 2000s I believe so um we didn't do that prior or before and I and I know that there was some issues with the Jennings Cove storm water Pond and that the city went in and and tried to fix it or make it better and um so that's why I'm thinking that the Jennings Cove one is probably a in a city-owned one now that doesn't mean that we can't go in and also do a taxing district um you maybe you could that's something our attorney would have to or they would have to figure out but um was you're talking the one in the park it's in a city park yeah yeah that right this is this one's to the South I believe yeah so there's the park and then there's the the pond it's it's it's right next door so this is on page 25 mayor the packet um Pond p84 is south of um it's off it's between Cove Circle and Jenning Jennings Cove Road because we had documented the one that's in the park that was next to the 2022 Street project this is the one in someone's backyard yeah yeah oh so yeah okay the one in the park is ours because it's in the city park and we have you're correct there's been a couple of occasions where they've gone out there and and clean that one out right um yeah in between the two neighborhood the two culdesac isn't it where you're talking about yeah okay again that I don't know but you could probably do a special assessment for for projects like that I mean but if it's in someone's backyard well it's probably an outlet there would be an yeah no there'd be an easement over the top of it um so the there's two different processes what mayor's talking about that we started in the early 2000s is the storm water taxing district with any new subdivision that's our common practice this one's before that time you can always do a 429 process to assess for these and you'd have to uh you know basically go around and do a Hydro water runoff map if you will to determine how many houses or how much of the water in this area goes to that pond so then you can go to all however many people that is 10 15 people whatever it ends up being and they would all then be part of that 420m process to do whatever you need to do to to clean up that pond so have to prove and demonstrate that you know 10 people their storm water goes to that pond and the reason all of this is happening is because as we get built out more and more and more these past funds become more important they're all important they're all important it's always been there the requirements have always been there it just hasn't been my comment to Jasper my comment to Jasper was today I've learned a lot on the city count basically when you go to buy a house I don't know of any you says you're going to be responsible for the roads and we're going to assess you for them and you're going to be responsible for the ponds and we're going to assess you for that you don't take any courses you don't know these expenses are coming so there's surprise expenses and I'm trying to get away from Surprise expenses yeah in this so in the as David pointed out the newer developments it shouldn't be a surprise because it still is I mean it's part of when you go throughing the stack of papers is like that who who goes through that and points all that out you know it's in there if you read through all that stuff oh yeah oh yeah the all in there and what everyone's responsible for and good fun stuff but but in this case because it was in the 80s I highly doubt that anything was documented in terms of who's responsible I mean I mean it might surprise you more than you think have been some sort of storm water maintenance agreement that went through as part of the subdivision agreement there's an HOA um how do we find that well we' have to you start here and then but that's the problem process is you you're going to have to go back um for accuracy and and do title searches you know engage with a title company or uh Kennedy and Graven can do that too but you know it's cost but here's here's the thing my experience has been it all depends on who the planner was at the time and and seriously I mean you know did they think about this at the time did they did they add it in yeah so I mean these are all good questions so you know options you certainly the storm tax district for everything that was platted after 2000 some earlier subdivisions might have something in place um you know there's the 429 process um that you can go through similar to what we do for Street Improvement projects there is I I looked up the statute last week when I was drafting this report and there is under the guidelines of what you can assess for projects it's for storm water maintenance I'm not saying it verbatim um which you know storm I would work with if that's something the city wants city council wants to explore I would work with the city attorney's office to make sure that they would be comfortable with that mechanism and how that process would work but a 429 assessment process is an option and then certainly um the the storm water management fund um is a is a city funding source that could be used and um you know if you want to take a look at doing pulling from that fund versus doing assessments then we would have to work with with Brian and his crew to start getting budgets put together for that the problem you're going to run into of these older ponds with the um larger lots too if you you know back then they had larger Lots um you have fewer people to assess and if it's going to be let's just say a $600,000 project and there's 10 homes or 15 homes you can't assess that whole amount it's just not it's just not financially viable so I think we have to figure out um how much it's going to cost and who and how it's going to be paid for but I I would say to start with probably letters to the homeowners um in this area you know would be at least a start so they're not totally shocked just saying we're starting to explore this your pond I don't know some kind of a explanation and education letter and um the city is looking at different financing options I I I don't know what to say in the letter exactly but um I agree with an to just pop something up and say okay now you guys are going to owe 20 grand I mean you know what I'm saying it's just I I I'm not real interested in doing that but I think we have to let them know that this is coming and um they're going to have to have some and like that so Jenny's C has an HOA maybe believe they come out when we did the park and talk about the curb and all that stuff they had someone here for one of our meetings they do I don't recall if it goes that because that that southern area was developed after jenning's Cove I don't remember I think I want to say it's like seven or eight years later so I don't know if they're part of the Jennings Co HOA that we've worked with in the past although we must have a contact right for the Jennings Co HOA and we could ask if that's part of it and and that's that's like there's there we can we can start getting answers to our questions the challenges um it's the the the amount of time that it takes to do that particularly if you have to do title searches as David mentioned well where staff where what are you guys recommending what the first step should be then well certainly this is this is why we brought it together the council's attention um we can certainly stay the course and just monitor if you look at how these how these scores are adjusting there you know every two years we're seeing a Delta of you know a couple points depending on how big the pond is so it's not like we're seeing a huge flood of um no pun intended of of ponds coming coming um at that 65 score um no but what I'm saying is what what what would your first what are you thinking of of doing we can't just keep sitting here because we've done that for a couple years now okay well is one of the things that I think think might be helpful for the council and for staff to be very honest with you is to go and if we have that storms the storm tax District being set up in 2000 would be to go and take a look at okay what ponds out of that whole list that we've generated how many of those ponds were built 2000 or later right and so start pairing down and saying all right now we're now we're dealing with a much more manageable data set in my opinion um because those are the ones that are going to be the the surprise right the 2000 and later if you didn't read your your closing documents I'm sorry but that's that's another you're saying prior to 2000 yeah yeah yeah right so maybe that's something that um we can bring back to the council right um so I think if we start looking at that I other I think the other thing to take a look at is this the program is based on how the scores are developed as they look at the area draining to the pond and what the land use is around it and based on that you use the um the industry standard of how many pounds or how much sediment going in there so is that really what happened did they get that much sentiment in there is there more is there less so because the next step of that is getting that bath metric survey and find out is this actually what you know is it actually filling in like we thought it was and I think we need that because I would hate to send people letters saying oh you might be assessed and then finding out oh wait thought you know what I'm saying you know so I think we need to like you said earlier than 2000 get a list of those and then do the bath metric assessments then we know more yeah I mean on this list there's not that many that are older than 2000 no yeah they tend to be bigger areas too so probably support it and like the trillion Bay one they have so yeah they do send the HOA an email on these ones be like hey this is your pwn score at this time we're going to be doing this survey here's what could happen a few years we did it two years ago so what kind of feedback did we get not much not much you know because it's one of those things where if if you're not required to will you and and and it's and or maybe it was a lack of understanding or maybe it didn't go get in the right person's hands I I don't know I think that there's you know certainly there's some some more steps that we can take um particularly if if we have good contact information for some of these HOAs like did you have a dollar amount in there as to what it was going to cost they have the acation because that'll get people's attention to dollar amount we didn't do you're just telling warning them that this this could happen they have no idea I mean I wouldn't know you were G to charge a lot of money well the aetric surveys so I updated that number it's in the in the it was um8 800 to 15 and that's just based on Pond size or is that like the base fee and then there's more stuff tacked on PING I would I would say a bimetric survey that's why we have that range in there is based on the size of the pond um i' so that would be a pretty solid number um regardless of size between 800 and yeah because you don't have to do it whole Pond right yeah so the the cost per square yard to remove now that's the wild card right because not it's not only how much how much sediment are you moving that that would be an easy number to calculate based on that survey but what's the level of contamination how are they going to have to dispose of it but even going back before that to David's point when you start looking at some of these can they get in there what kind of equipment can they get the standard equipment in there or are they looking at getting smaller equipment are they looking at significant tree removal removal of land landcaping and patios and who knows what's in there that's the that's the eyebrow raise that I'm seeing you know um well there's there's you can see it right there yeah that's the pond I know I know these are trees all houses you know that's not to the road you know this is going to be major well you would access it from that that other side from from the the other Road and I'm not familiar with the grades through there you're going to cut more down you know so you know and I think the other thing too is we want to be a little bit strategic on this if we're looking at the PCA coming through with a permit renewal and and having the city count city council and it's a year away it's important work to do um but if if we're seeing major well I shouldn't say major but challenges with some of the that um do we want to start thinking all right well let's do a plan so that we can you know we'll demonstrate to the PCA that we are making an effort but I do we really want to cut our teeth on a really hard one or should we should we find one that we know is is in an open area I like that idea I like that idea right exactly like I I think it's like that's that could be really be a hornet's nest and we don't want to upset residents like that the the thing is is to Peter's Point depending on where depending on so Jennings Bay is one of the most degradated Bays on Lake vatanka we know that it's I think a d maybe even an f and so it's kind of depends on where your storm water ponds are and where they we where where they Outlet to that's also going to kind of determine somewhat where you should be looking because the impact that they have would be significant especially if it's a um degradated Bay already you know so I don't know I mean there's all these plus the other thing is when you fix these ponds um could there be um grants available because if they're working on um tmdl or something on on Jennings Bay and you know that might be something to talk to mcwd about because um if they have to and I know that we're on the hook for phos reduction if there's a tmdl and it says you know 36 pounds have to be removed blah blah blah you're on the hook for 15 of those pounds whatever then we have to do something but there may be grants available I don't know so that might be something we should ask at least yeah to my knowledge for something that you're require to do with with the water district there aren't we've we've done the Ravine Grant with them that's something above and beyond the Minneapolis we restored that we got a little bit of money from them but um and Bowser been brought up before um and when it's a regulatory Authority that you already have as a city they don't look too Keen to give you money for something that you're supposed to be doing yeah what why [Laughter] not I don't know I'm just um throwing out some thoughts okay so of the ones that are on page are less than 65 which ones are the easiest to tackle probably some of the ones in hun Crest Palmer point would be easy to to access there's this right on right around right next to the road I I wonder if there's I I should forun is not here this evening but some of these HOAs there's there could be some um some relationship between staff and members of the HOA and maybe it's worth reaching out to some of those and just instead of just sending off a letter to somebody who we don't know who's responsible as taking that more personal approach and and saying hey we've got you know we've got this data set that's kind of telling us this Pond might be do for some maintenance has anything been done um and just kind of start those conversations with um versus just sending out a letter that may or may not get into the yeah I was thinking if it's if we're not sure if it's an HOA or but but yeah okay and I know hress Crest HOA is aware of their PS and that they have to um address those so um maybe the um huness Crest and even Palmer point the the um Hunter the first one p13 and p69 might be two that we could right and and I think I think too like I had a strong connection with some of them from the hunters crust HOA and when I asked because I knew they were doing some work for it they had programmed into their budget and when I asked for the documentation like just can you tell me how many loads they called out I I didn't get anything back so I'll try that again yeah um so just things like that this this might not fall high on their priority list um so I'll make note of that too there's some some additional information that I can bring back to the council as far as pairing down what's been built before 2000 and then trying to find that personal connection with the HOA I don't think there's a lot that was built prior to 2000 Jennings Co maybe um trying to think about other ones that were built I mean they're they're around the lake you know the the developments over there but well we have some good some good things to work on I think um you know I I like that we've started we've started talking about this for the last what four years I think we've been talking about this um and getting some Cadence so that you know understanding that we're likely going to see something in that next permitting at least we have some groundwork that we can build off of MH with the permitting cycle and I know like we set the score is 65 is that good or are they going to come back and say like it's got to be 80 like well that that's a good question because the this the program that we use isn't used metrowide it's I I don't know what other programs are available to do something like that so it'll be interesting to see how they phrase that if they're going to go by yearbuilt anything that's 20 years old or 30 years old I I I don't know how I don't know what they're looking at for draft language but yeah we set it at 65 thinking that that would be probably a you know place to start at um well most the ones that we're talking about are even far lower than 65 so yeah all right so do you kind of know what I'm making notes so that um so in in no order of of importance um I had to find a list of bmps that were built before 2000 so that we can see which ones don't have that um storm tax district and then to look for personal connections to HOAs so that on that list if we can go and find that you know instead of sending that letter out into who knows where um prioritizing basins based on the condition of the downstream body with Jenning Bay being one of the examples um and then there was and then I think maybe once we start I bring that information back to council um there was a discussion about getting some bimetric surveys done and looking for Grants if there's any grant money available for any of this preliminary work okay um when would Council like to see this come back discussion when would I don't know how long this going take you to find that true that's a good point that's what I was going to say well when you think you can come back well I'd like to give it a i I'd like to give it a good um a good try to get some of this you know the connections with the HOAs which I'm maybe fall that's a that's a nice like three month window September SE September September okay how dire is this I know it got referenced earlier that they're starting when David talked about like bigger communities like Chan and stuff I mean are we in the next threshold like we should be doing something by 2027 or 2030 or or what do you have any idea or not really if it's just no the numers for the wood c identif yeah well that's so that's like you could you could you could play it depends on how the language is set up right are they just looking for the city making an effort or are they looking for the city to go and Implement to go and well let let me just make let me make a comment here just so you know um it costs a whole lot more to clean up a body of water than it does to prevent it from getting polluted in the first place so and that's what these storm water ponds are supposed to do preventative okay so I don't really think it's in our best in long-term best interest to postpone this because then we're going to be on the hook because they're going to be doing they they've probably already done tmdls for all of the bays and and and the whole um mcwd Watershed and what happens is then we're on the hook to to clean the help with the cleanup of these bays and reduce the phosphorus loading so it's in our best interest to do this before it gets so bad so right but some of these are already bad they are I right and so we're really going to be on the hook one way or the other to clean up the to help reduce the phosphorus loading anyway so this isn't something that you can just say well let's I mean postponing we we have to I mean we can't do this all at once because of the cost but we need to be addressing it sooner than later okay thank you all right one I'm sorry one more thing would it make sense to do the aetric survey on like the one two three four five six the eight of them that are under 60 just now so we have it when we reach out to the HOA if we find them so they have the information um I I think what I'd like to do is see if I can find that personal connection and say hey so you've got these Pawn on and have the conversation because it's so difficult to go just with a letter and have a phone conversation or an inperson meeting um explain what we're doing ask because if they've done some kind of maintenance on those oh that's great okay well how much do you think you removed and then we can update it and their score might go up so I think that would be an important thing to do first um and then like I said we if we look at at kind of calling that list based on what's under a taxing district and and if I get anywhere with these personal connections um we'd have a smaller list that we'd be looking at to get those bath metric surveys done as a Next Step okay all right all right so um real quick uh so Kathleen myself Gary Jasper Aaron vmer and then um and also uh from Kennedy and Graven um an attorney uh strowman was there and we it was a virtual meeting and we talked about um a different process that cities can do for the uh water treatment plant and I think at the end kind of to make a long story short I think all of us kind of agreed that that's not the process we want to go through it's it's kind of um it's what you do the processes um you hire a um contractor a general contractor early on so like right now and then they're involved in the process and then they go out and they get bids so once the HVAC system has been designed they take that they take it to subcontractors and they get bids and then once the electrical has been done they take and then they come back to council and Council approves every phase of the project so maybe the grading is the first thing then they do the the the foundation and then they do this and they do that um we we talked about this for an hour and um we really came to the conclusion that it really isn't going to save us any time especially right now because first of all we'd have to go out for rfps that means requests for proposals and and then they'd have to submit their proposals very similar to like what we did with a s and um then you go through the proposals and then they have to be qualified and so on and so forth and then you have to interview them so by the time we did all that we'd be well into September anyway I mean I'm at least based on our experience with hiring a2s so and then we said well we didn't quite see the value in this either because they were trying to sell us some it's a good value because they can be involved early on in the design process and we're like let's see that's not going to happen because we're already going down that path right now so they wouldn't be involved so long story short if if anybody should ask we did look at it we we evaluated it and it really was a unanimous consensus that it doesn't do us in this project a lot of good having said that the other reason I think I would be very apprehensive about it is because it's such a big project if we're going to do something like this and it's a let's say first time doing this I would highly recommend we do it on a much smaller project so maybe we could consider doing it let's say down the road we have to add another storage facility water tower in ground up above whatever we a couple million dollars maybe that's where we want to think about it and think about it earlier on because I think we're too far down the road right now just seemed like it would cost more Andy get out longer to go this but the other thing um that kind of came to light is I think the council maybe with engineering we need to establish a a budget we need to tell them this is where we want to be and and you need to try and work within that those those parameters otherwise we might get a budget that we can't handle so there might be some certain things that they can do cost savings wise and say well okay if this is your budget we're going to have to do this or if this is your budget we're going to have to do this but I think it would be in in the city's best interest to really make it clear what we think or what we expect this this project to come in at now what that number is I don't know but well I think yeah the 19 number shot 2 million and I that's where I think you know I think multiple of us push back and that seems whatever you know we found out in that meeting so what happens is when they start designing this they start out with a 30% contingency and so that's why it's 19 million right now and but then you get into the design process and by the time it's 50 or 60% designed now you're probably down to 20% contingency and then by the time it's a final design now down to maybe a 5 or 10% contingency so that's why I think the 19 million is such a St sticker shock and Brian's going we can do it for less than this so it's probably going to come in between 14 and 15 but I think we need to make it clear we as a small community um or a small amount of um water users we need to be very very conscientious about about this budget and so I I think we need to con that this evening uh to them you know 14 million if possible let's not put any bells and whistles on this thing this is strictly utilitarian whatever we need to do I don't care if it's ugly we'll cover it with trees I a little bit no we'll cover it with trees um but I mean we can't we can't go overboard because just because we don't have the money we can size it and then I know can with the weird I mean I know there's things you can do that we maybe just got to talk to them about as far as what's the right size I know obviously Gary wants it as big as possible but to the you know what's the budget going to fit you know and all those things got to be considered I guess that's yeah so um and then so um Erin won't be here tonight but um I guess I don't know his name gr May so he'll be here so we'll be able to asking a lot of questions so all right with that uh we can be adjourned if there's a motion Mo thank you Kathleen thank you Peter all those in favor signify with i i all those opposed motion passes