Good evening. Um like we have a pretty moderate agenda tonight. Are there any changes to the agenda? >> No changes. >> Okay. On the consent agenda, we have the minutes from July 6th planning commission hearing. Anybody have any comments or revisions to the meeting? None. We have a motion to approve those meeting minutes. >> Motion to second. >> Second. >> All those in favor say I. >> I. >> Okay. Um well, I guess we have the uh joint planning commission uh comp plan update. Sorry about that. Next item on the agenda is the uh joint session for the uh comprehensive plan amendment. So staff will present there. >> Mr. Chair, uh planning commission and city council. I'm going to hand it over here to Lance Bernard from TC2 who is our consultant on the 2050 plan. Um this was kicked off in the beginning of the year and we've had one joint session to date and a few community engagement events. Um, so with that, I'll turn it over to Lance. >> Yeah. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh, members of the commission, city council. Uh, happy to be in front of you again tonight, uh, to bring you an update of where we are in the comprehensive planning update process. As Brett mentioned, we were here a few months ago kicking things off, and since that time, we've had a number of community engagement events. we've started to dig uh deep into the comp plan and try to better understand where some of the updates need to occur. So, um to just get started um you know, just always a quick opportunity to just kind of refresh uh the council commission on just the overall goals of the comprehensive plan. Uh don't need to belabor too much on this since we went through this the last work session, but this is really ultimately your your 10-year vision plan. This is your plan that really outlines a lot of your initiatives where you want to go over the next 10 to 20 years. Um it really helps us to reflect on past successes, revisit the plan, understand where uh changes need to occur, uh how do we best kind of align uh the vision for the community over the next 10 20 years as you uh continue to grow uh into the future. A lot of this is being driven by certainly state statute. Uh this is a requirement um by state law to update every 10 years. So we're also looking um at some of the requirements we need to meet. Uh certainly that's guided through our regional planning agency through the metropolitan council. Uh there are certain things that we need to address as part of that that we'll work together on. As I mentioned the last time we met around some of those requirements, but then really making sure we tailor this plan to fit your needs. make sure it tailor tailored to fit your vision and your goals for the future as well. So, that's really where we've spent a lot of time here early on is really making sure we understand how we uh create a plan that's meaningful for the community. Uh and certainly some of the bigger things we'll be working a little bit more on the technical side that we started to get into is just really how do we balance growth? How do we address some of the housing needs? How do we look at the transportation system, parks, trails, a lot of your community assets that we want to continue to maintain and enhance? Uh but in addition to that, find opportunities to build out and expand some of those assets. Uh so a number of requirements we'll be addressing as a group a little bit later in the process. Uh so that process right now is really has unfolded over the last 3 to four months where we've started to really lean into uh some of the community engagement to identify the issues and opportunities and starting to work more closely with staff on how we update the plan's goals and vision to reflect some of those issues and needs. And now uh we're starting to just launch into some more of the technical aspects of the update itself. So what have we been doing over the last couple months? Well, we have been out in the community. We've been engaging the community the best we can through a number of different channels. Uh we started kicking things off during Rock the Rogers by uh spreading the word through a number of flyers to get people to the project website to fill out a community survey. Uh we've worked a lot with the local businesses to help promote uh the survey. Uh thanks to really a testament to Brett and staff's relationships with businesses. We had a number that were willing to put up pop-up tents at tables, at restaurants, flyers throughout their businesses during Rock and Rogers to really promote uh the event. So that really helped drive a lot of attraction to the community survey. Uh we also did a number of one-on-one pop-ups. So, we were sitting up at SIP Happens, Broadway Pizza, having just some smaller community conversations, and now we're really gearing up for a larger community open house on uh April 26th that will be held here at 5:00 p.m. to have some more uh dialogue with community around really what what do we need to be thinking about for the future of the community. Um, so with the survey that was uh launched, that's still live. we're we're still willing and open to accepting more respondents, but to date, we've had over 250 uh people participate in that survey, which I think is a pretty healthy response because it gives us a good sample size of just starting to get a pulse on what the community thinks of where we need to go. Uh so there is a a summary memo in your packet uh that highlights a lot of those findings, a lot of the core takeaways from what we're hearing, not only from the survey results, but some of the community conversations we've been having. Uh so I think Rogers uh planning commission city council you can take a lot of pride in recognizing that the community really values uh the neighborhoods they live in today the parks um the uh access the regional location the places that people choose uh to visit and and shop in in the community. So there's a lot of great things that people have um to say about the community but then there's also a lot more things we can continue to work on and think about. Uh so some takeaways through the survey is just really finding ways to improve our transportation system and how we really start to meaningfully think about growth and how we manage that in a way that um continues to build uh community character and continue to build uh neighborhoods that are safe and accessible for pedestrians and bicyclists. So for us, those were some of the key highlights and takeaways. Um a few more takeaways on the screen there. Uh, so maybe just a couple more to expand on. I think what we heard and which was kind of great to have these conversations at the local, you know, coffee shop and and Broadway Pizza is that people really do value the local businesses that you do have a lot of localowned businesses uh that people love to patron uh and that you do have a great park and trail system that people want to continue to utilize and and again find opportunities to expand enhance those amenities throughout uh the community. Uh so a lot more in your packet that you can kind of sift through and and take away some of more of those uh key takeaways. But that really then has led us into some larger conversations with city staff of how do we use this information to update your vision and your guiding principles that's currently in your comp plan. There's a number of guiding statements in there that really start to lay out that vision and really how do we start to implement that vision over time. And I think one of the core takeaways from some of our community conversations that I thought was interesting from an individual that said, I've been part of these comp plan processes for the last three rounds when we were even working on Hassan's townships and Rogers uh comp plan that we've always been asked to dream big and think about 20 30 years out. But yet we come back to the table every 10 years and update this vision. So let's try to kind of focus a little bit more closely at how we can accomplish something within those 10 years before the next update being in uh 20 38 somewhere out there. Um so right now your plan has those bigger aspirational vision statements. You have some guiding principles that start to articulate that vision in a little bit more detail, but why don't we dig a little bit deeper and come up with some more specific goals and strategies. So this is what we're working through with staff on now is how do we develop some more specific things that we could maybe realistically work towards over the next 10 years to give you a little bit more imple implementation plan or action items to think about. Um so that is where we are kind of right now in that process and using a lot of that community input. Um, from there we're just kind of building on a lot of kind of key themes and key words uh that kind of pointing us in the direction of thinking about growth, community choice, why people choose and why people want to live here, those economic opportunities, um, what does quality environments mean, and how do we look at the multimodal network as well. So, without getting into the word play and word smithing now, uh we're we're kind of holding back on presenting a lot of some of those vision statements and those guiding principles until we really get through that open house uh on April 26 to really dial in what we mean by some of these statements and these guiding principles. Um but I would say overall I think the biggest takeaway we have [snorts] um been thinking a little bit more about through that engagement so far is what is community character and quality of life mean to Rogers? Uh so that most people recognize that the community is growing. There's a lot of growth that's continuing to happen. Uh it's something we want to be planning for strategically but then really trying to understand how we balance that growth when we think about community character and quality of life. Uh so that's where we're going to really focus on some more uh pointed conversations with the community at the open house and really try to use more visual aids and more um precedent examples to try to unlock what those ter terms mean. And I think this is something that the commission council has been working on um recently too is just what does community character mean? What does community identity and sense of place mean? So, we really want to tailor our community engagement um openhouse activities to really kind of unlock some of the the core things that surround uh those topic areas. Um but we've also got some technical information that we can kind of help support with that. So, we've been kind of cleaning up some of our um issues maps. Uh so specifically when we start to think about what we're hearing from the community on improving the transportation network, we've done um some uh mapping to demonstrate where trails are being used the most. And that's using um some kind of traffic modeling software. Um trying to understand where the hotspots are in the community, where people are going, and just where some of those gaps and barriers are in the system. So there'll be some more kind offormational maps to help guide our discussion as we get into that open house in a few weeks. Um, so I think we're just going to close out and just kind of pose the question to uh commission and council is just really what does community character and quality of life mean to you as we think about the next 10 years and how we think about preserving, enhancing and changing for future generations and and planning for the future. And maybe I'll end again by saying that, you know, and reiterating that that we are planning for a fair amount of growth. This is something that has been in the last comprehensive plan and continues to be part of the comprehensive plan is how do we think about the future populations that are u planning to move here or what we're forecasting for growth knowing that we have a fair amount of housing and employment opportunities that uh we need to be thinking more critically about which this just kind of ties back into um defining those terms a little bit more. Uh and there's a lot of balance and trade-off as we think about uh growth. Uh so uh we do need to you know take these things um into consideration as we think about balancing growth between jobs, housing supply. How do we balance the amenities that we have? We want to make sure we're maintaining what we have in good condition before we really expand uh some of our uh trails and and transportation networks. So a lot of balancing acts that we need to take into consideration. I guess I I will just kind of end by saying, you know, we encourage everybody, even the community that's here tonight for other items on the agenda to participate in that open house on August 5th. Your voice matters. There's a intentionally uh council and commission is very intentional about having the community engagement and want to hear voices. So, we definitely encourage uh everybody that's listening on the call tonight and and in the community to to stop by and be part of those community conversations. So, with that, uh Mr. chair, uh, planning commission, uh, city council. I'll pause and answer any questions. >> Thank you, Lance. [clears throat] The commissioners or council have questions here. >> So, I have a question. I just want to clarify. You said August 5th. Is it 5th or the 26th? >> Oh, I'm sorry. Uh, the open house is on August 26th. That starts at 5:00 PM here. It'll be in this room for that. Yeah, I kind of glossed over that because that's where I was hoping to get some thoughts and input from planning commission and council tonight. Well, I guess I'd ask you um you know what what what does the survey tell us? I mean, there's a a lot of data here and you have really good participation. Um give me some of the five takeaways that you see. >> Yeah, I think what we have gleaned from the community survey and from conversations we had at the popup around community character is really trying to create identifiable neighborhoods that we kind of know where we are in the community. And so, how do we think about future development? kind of the look and feel of future development to give us that um identity uh and a sense of place that we are in Rogers. And so we um want to then maybe start critically thinking about um yeah back to the look and feel of these buildings and are there new design standards or things that we want to consider to uh put into the comprehensive plan that starts to then launch you into maybe some bigger things that need to happen from a zoning perspective. Um quality of life. I think people really uh value the community today, but recognize that change is coming uh and change is hard and so how do we continue to maintain what we appreciate today in the community knowing that a lot more people want to move here in here and value the things that we value today. So we need to be mindful about that quality of life to make sure that um we are planning for future park systems that we are building a trail network that can accommodate today's needs but also is responsive to growth as well. So, there's certainly areas for improvement on that transportation side of things. Uh, there's areas for improvements on building out our our park systems to adapt to new youth programming, um, new amenities that I think the community has started to kind of articulate, uh, in the survey. So, um, I guess I'll end by saying I think when we talk about what we're seeing and hearing of through the engagement from a community character and quality of life standpoint, it really comes back to people's lived experiences in the community, right? It's day-to-day activities. This is what, you know, we know in our own communities is that we know how e difficult it might be to get from point A to point B. Um, so you know how that's where there's a lot more comments on the transportation side of things. Uh, I guess I'm just kind of rambling now. So I'll just end there to see if that sparks any other questions. >> Been really intentional about adding the second sheet of ice, the turf facility, and we're looking to attract families that are coming to tournaments. And I think building up Main Street, make giving people places to go when they're here for the weekend. I mean, all of that stuff. We've been pretty intentional about that. Um, I think having safe neighborhoods is really important. So, as we grow, we got to be intentional about that and not I mean, the reality is as we grow, our police force is going to be bigger. And >> every budget year we talk about this. Um we have to stay on top of that. >> Y if I may expand on that. I I don't want to forget this one um conversation we had with the police chief and fire chief as well when it comes to attracting and retaining FTEEs and bringing in um law enforcement and and fire folks to to be provide that critical uh public service. And so um and it ju and this is just in every community. We do a very good job of building detached homes and apartments, but we miss that missing middle. Town homes, quads, smaller affordable products. And so the conversations we were having with a number of staff was we we need that to attract emergency service folks into the community and retain them at those price points. So that was a takeaway for me as part of some of those conversations. So, when we start to look at the land use plan and try to figure out how we balance the the guiding land uses of where we can support different housing products, that's that's going to be a a critical thing for us to think about. So, a couple of things that stood out to me was um pedestrian safety and trails for pedestrian safety. And then the other one, when you say transportation, it was um congestion. I think they focus more on congestion versus like public transportation. Is that correct? >> Yes. Uh definitely more uh dialogue and comments regarding just traffic congestion and certainly congestion can be a reality or perceived depending on what you're willing to live with uh because there's always going to be some choke points on the system and we just can't build ourselves out of uh congestion. You know, right now we don't have uh public transit that's serving the uh region. there isn't really um plans to to provide, you know, regular route service here in the future. So, we we really need to then be intentional about how we're providing some other opportunities and create um safe connections for pedestrians and bicyclists that rely on on other, you know, moving around by foot or bike through the community. So, uh there's definitely a number of crash analysis that we did to date to see what some of those patterns are over the last five years. that I guess the other one was schools. >> Quality schools kind of equated to quality of life. >> Yep. >> Some of that's with out of our control is the school board is looking to separate and Rogers and I mean I don't know how that'll change Rogers really but it's going to change the landscape. >> Yep. And if I may, Mr. chair uh planning commission council. Certainly schools is definitely one of those cherished things by the community. They value the school system. We know that there's a lot of other discussions and dialogue going around of uh the future of some expansion and changing of district boundaries and within respect to the comprehensive plan. It's really not necessarily an item that's addressed in the comprehensive plan. Um it's a little bit out of our control for this effort, but it's something we can continue to recognize that uh contributes to the quality of life for Rogers residents. And I I would say that the approach that we're taking with this, obviously Lance mentioned meeting with fire and police, which is not as normal or as required by state statute, but it's something we want to incorporate. It's at down that 100 foot level to ensure we're planning for everything. Same goes for schools. So meeting with them, sharing where our growth areas are, what those growth projections are, so they have that data. Now, what they do with that data is kind of in their hands. It's their levy. It's their budgets. but ensuring that they have all the information that they need from us to make their informed decisions as they plan for their growth. Obviously, their district is much larger than just Rogers. We've had numerous conversations. We met with them last week. Um, but ensuring that they have at least the southern portion of their district covered and what our growth's going to be. that same vein, how how does this roll up into MDOT and Hipin County, the major infrastructure partners that we have in >> Yeah, madame mayor and council. So, as part of the review process, all of those agencies or view reviewing agencies have a chance to comment on the draft version. There's a six-month review period with comp plans where affected jurisdictions, including adjacent communities, have the chance to review the plans and submit any comments. So, MDOT would have that opportunity. Obviously, there's been numerous discussions about some of the different mindot items within the community, specifically the 94101 interchange. Um, but it will once we have a better idea of where those choke points or potential future networks will be, that's where those conversations really ramp up. So obviously a lot of work was done for the pedestrian review of seeing if there's that additional crossing. But if we identify corridors, it's like all right, that's a great time to have that conversation. Ideally, you get it on their CIP or funding levels just so it's in their radar and they have some funding assistance that can go with it. Um, but obviously having it in our plan is also important for grant applications future too, bonding applications. So, the other thing you noted was identifiable neighborhoods. Uh, do you see that uh different zoning districts or different design guidelines would be something that would be something worth pursuing? >> Well, it's something that we can explore with staff. We haven't dug too deep into that quite yet. Um, I think there's the opportunity to try to really reflect on that and see what it means from a zoning perspective because we can certainly articulate what we're hearing from the community in the comp plan, which is back to that kind of 10,000 foot level, but how do you really implement that? So, that's the conversations we're just starting to get in with staff is just would we want to consider design standards or how do we define neighborhoods that are more distinct from one another? give the definition of that because to me that sounds divisive rather than unifying. I mean, we're Rogers. >> Sure. Yep. >> I I don't know why we got to divide everybody into their little pocket of neighborhood. It doesn't make sense to me. >> Yeah. And that that's fair. I think that's a fair comment. Like I said, we're still trying to kind of figure out what that really means to the community. Um, and if that's the appetite, you know, and we don't need to go that direction, but uh, we're just trying to kind of unlock what community identity really means to the community. >> Where does that come from? >> That that's coming from some of the comments we received through the survey, the community conversations we're having at the popup that people are just feeling that um they want to see more um kind of distinct neighborhoods and not just one kind of homogeneous community. Uh so that again we're trying to unlock that and kind of figure out what that really means. And our natural instinct is to go right towards well does that mean you you try to create some um different design standards so that you know you are um encouraging developers to apply certain building materials and design aesthetics to make this feel like a a nice neighborhood and not just a homogeneous product which Rogers does do a good job of requiring some of those now. But is there more we could do? >> I'm kind of wondering if that you hear of like cookie cutter neighborhoods with the developments where you have like three house designs, they all look the same. If that's where that's coming from. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It could just be as simple as thinking more about community parks. You know, how do we have that identifiable community park that's nestled in the new we're in this neighborhood because this is the type of community park we have. Is it more uh different type of development patterns, sizes of development lots and so forth? So, I think there's a number of ways we can start to explore that and look at that a little bit more closely with staff. >> How do we address the like if the legislature comes back and takes those decisions away from us? >> We'll have to navigate that if that legislation happens. But for now, we're we're certainly just operating under the purview that, you know, we I think we still have a cities still have a lot of control on how they address their land uses. >> Well, and I think we should communicate that because everybody gets to vote and uh I don't know, it's something that I feel strongly about, but if people don't understand what's happening at the legislature, it doesn't get the attention that it should. and um taking uh city development decisions and everything that goes with it out of the hands of city government and in the hands of St. Paul, whatever you want to call them. Uh isn't a good choice. I think that um community development needs to stay within the community and uh so I encourage everybody to >> keep an eye on that, >> dig into that and learn about what it is. Um been able to hold it off so far, but it really puts development in the hands of developers and uh takes a lot of a lot of decision-m away from us. So, good question for your legislator. >> [clears throat] >> I guess one other comment I had. I heard you say the middle is missing and I'm kind of a facts and data guy. I think that we understand what our inventory levels are, right? different housing types in the city or if we don't have the exact pulse on that, I'd like to rather than having discussions around assumptions that we're missing the middle because we've had a considerable amount of development and there is always multif family kind of blended in that because we all understand that a variety of housing types is important for the community and and I've seen a lot of it. So to hear we have a middle a missing middle is shocking to me. So I want to make sure that we're shoring that up with data that does indeed kind of inventory our housing type so that we're speaking from facts rather than just assumption. >> Yeah, I can check a crack at this first and Lance feel free to add. um planning commission and city council as you know well city council knows for sure we have a housing study that we've received grant to fund the entire housing study that should kick off in the beginning of August so obviously there's going to be a lot of data that comes from that um but the missing middle term really extends beyond just Rogers specifically or state specifically it's a nationwide issue and it's really a price point item more than anything there's certain ownership opportunities. That's the goal is obviously there's a lot of opportunities for people and housing prices have went up so much getting that price point that attainable price point because that's where generational wealth really comes from home home ownership. So there's certain opportunities where it doesn't just have to be a town home. Maybe it's a quad, maybe it's a side by side, whatever it may be. >> Ensuring that we have the proper housing types in all different levels of pricing. So it could be twin home, it could be something like that. But the housing study is going to get us a lot of data that can then take those policies or goals, strategies, whatever they are to that next point. And so that study will kind of tell us what our current um values of homes are because we have twin homes. We have quad homes and stuff here. >> It should give us all the sales data. >> Okay. >> We get the sales data but it's not in a really easily discernible form. It's a packet of every sale with each page. So it doesn't quantify them uh combined. And it comes out just once a year. We get it from the assessor, but this will have a more easil easily digestible version of that. Now, Lince, you did invite the public to speak or ask questions. Does anybody want to ask uh our staff any questions about the comp plan, where we're at? If you come to the podium, please. Yeah, that's just fine. I'm in my second home in Rogers and both of them were were new. We bought into a development which we were told would incorporate this and that. For our first one, it was a villa home neighborhood and the owner of the land or lots wanted to get rid of his lots. So, what we thought we were buying into was not what we ended up with. [snorts] So, that was very disappointing and I was just kind of curious how does the um planning commission handle those situations. We moved out of that HOA neighborhood because it wasn't what it we thought we were buying into. The rules were all changed. You know, of course, after the contracts are signed, we moved six blocks away to Augusta Prairie and we're told the homes would all be within this price range. Once again, in order to get rid of lots, that price point went way down, which affected the value of the home that we purchased in there. [clears throat] Is there recourse that individuals have against these developers when the rules are changed in their favor? >> Thank you. That's a good question. >> I don't know if there's an easy answer for that. I certainly know this, you know, from the city's standpoint. We have opportunities to enter into development agreements and place shies and certain things occur with regards to, you know, public services and and parks and whatnot. Um, but with regards to how the market fluctuates in the pricing of uh different property selling, it seems like a tough tough egg to crack. >> Mr. Chair, plan commission, city council, the city doesn't control price points of homes. We did we controlled lot sizes. So, when a subdivision comes in, we're really looking at the lot size specifically. We'll have an idea of what that home's going to look like. They may provide what that price range is going to be, but that's not something that the city can actually take an action legally on. We can't say no because we need your price point to be here. So, from a legal standpoint, we cannot do anything with that. Um, I will say from the HOA standpoint when you mentioned that there was a bill that was passed this last legislative session that does address some items where HOAs were getting a lot of criticism specifically when it came looking at like redoing roofs and things of that ensuring that they're getting the proper bids. So, I'd say from a statewide perspective, I would say both your comments really are more geared towards a statewide perspective of things that they can act on and we've seen HOAs getting some of that scrutiny and some of the changes coming forward with that. I'm not sure on the development side. There could be something in your contract that they violated, but um usually the city isn't involved in the individual contract basis. We have a master development plan and our agreements with any developer really tied to that overall development for what those lots are going to look like, how it's graded to ensure it doesn't have negative spin-off effects on anywhere around it. >> Thank you. Um, good evening. My name is Lori Matskco. Um, I've been in Rogers for almost 30 years. And some of [clears throat] the challenges that I personally not have, but my neighbors have had and also some of my friends have had is that they will buy a home in the in the cookie cutter neighborhoods and the workmanship on the home is poor where they're there's not windows are not flashed properly or the grading around the house is not done properly so water runs into the house or worse yet from their neighbors where they can't really control. So, is there anything from a planning commission for like codes or something that can be instituted to protect us from kind of shoddy workmanship that as a homeowner I'm not really going to be able to know? Thank you. >> Planning Commission, city council. I'd say the one more recent activity that the city council really implemented was we brought our building department inhouse. We previously contracted out. So, now we have a building official that's directly a staff member as well as building inspectors. Um, so we have direct building inspectors that go review every home to ensure that they're meeting code. They can enforce up to the point of the code. So if it's not a direct building code item, they may not be able to be addressed. If they're having water issues, I would recommend that they contact our engineering department to see if there's a larger issue that they can help address. >> I just have a question. How many new actual developments, single family home developments are in progress right now in in Rogers or coming into Rogers? I'm just curious how many single family homes are being built. I'm trying to count it off in my head. It's not going well. Um, [clears throat] it really ranges. So, each development is going to be very different in size. You can have some developments that are as small as 10 lots, 10 total single family homes. Then you have some that are larger and multi-phase that occur over five, seven years. Um, so there are I would say there's different categories. Some are in the process of being built out or nearly completed. We have that what I'm thinking is three or four new single family developments that are in the process of grading and haven't started to build a home yet. But it really ranges. It's all dependent and this really extends to everything with the comp plan. The city isn't one who's telling anyone to sell their land. It is a personal property choice if they choose to sell. And then it's also their choice if they would want to sell to a developer. We want to ensure that we are planning from our stage to know where that growth could occur and it's really tied to the utility extensions that are happening. So as utilities may extend it now it's theoretically a lot cheaper to extend utilities to get into that next lot. So as cities operate it's really pay as you go. So the developers paying to extend the utilities. it's not falling back on the residents to do so. Um, so there is theoretically the ability for some property owners to sell and some many that don't. There's obviously a large um agricultural field that's next to the high school that theoretically could have been developed at any point by that property owner, but they're choosing actively choosing to not develop at this time. And from our standpoint, we want to ensure that we're ready for the time that they do. But by no means are we saying you have to develop more than five is what I count developments. Um but I think when it comes back to the comprehensive plan um you can pay attention to the zoning and any kind of changes that might arise from zoning. Um, we can't put a pause. Well, I suppose you know through the act of council and that you might, but you can't put a a pause on a development because of one product or another. You you can review zones. You can say if it's rural, if it's residential or not. And I think that's what comes back to the comprehensive plan. Your question might, I'm guessing, have more to do with how many more homes are we going to have in the future in the next 10 years, single family homes. Yeah. Which leads a lot to questions of traffic. And so, uh, a lot of that has come up in the surveys. It sounds like as far as housing and missing, uh, quad homes or that middle housing demographic. So, >> [clears throat] >> I will add that uh you know as these projects come through the planning commission and council um we look at them and we're challenged sometimes with making decisions and your input is really valuable. Um oftent times they ask for variances or plan unit developments so they can have more density uh short lesser setbacks. Um sometimes we grant those things because they'll do something like put in more trails or preserve more wetlands or whatnot. Um, so it's a balancing act and I don't know what the product type everybody's looking for all the time, but I certainly do value your input and and we try to do our best on this infrastructure. The roads is you know I look at apartment buildings and all are going and I think So there's at least two cars of one most the time two cars in each building or each one of those apartments being dumped onto our road. You know, I mean that you talked earlier about the traffic situation. That's not good here. Um why I'm more I guess I'm more in favor of single family homes than high-rise big apartment building rentals. >> Yeah, thank you. That's uh certainly something we're seeing in these survey results and something that we'll look at make our planning decisions in the comp plan. That's another area that folks can get involved in. Not everybody understands that there's an unelected body called the Met Council >> that uh dictates really every community within its reach that how much density we should have in Rogers for instance. So that's a it's always a struggle between us wanting to stay and I think we'll probably see it in the survey results a lot that rural feel in Rogers which really means less density and the standards that the Met Council imposes for more density. uh they call it efficient land use or a lot of different terms, but they're driving for more density and uh so maybe you can let your legislators know how you feel about an unelected body dictating what what we do in our communities. So it's it's the pressure that we get that not everybody always understands. >> I don't know if that indicated how I feel about it. [laughter] Well, and it's not just pressure. There's consequences to not following those rules as well. >> No light rail out here. [laughter] [clears throat] >> All right. If there's no more questions or comments, I think maybe we should move on. Anybody have anything they want to say before you move to the next topic? Okay. Uh, next item on the agenda is a public hearing uh to consider an amendment to our zoning code uh to allow backyard chickens Yeah. So, I'll step up. So, >> one moment. Let's get our presentation from staff and then we'll take public com. >> Thank you. >> Well, Zach's uh pulling this up. I just want to say Zachary Gat here is our planning intern. he was did a lot of lay work on on some of the drafts and research around backyard chickens. Um, and it it's a long ordinance. Um, but it kind of has to be in order to cover all the bases, right? So, uh, we'll we'll let Zach take it away for uh the presentation and have at it. >> Yeah. Chair, commission, and madame mayor, counselors. Um, my name is Zach. uh have been uh playing a playing intern here at the city of Rogers uh since uh since June. And as Alex said, uh this is something that we've been staff has been working on here uh for the the past few weeks. Um background kind of be behind this. I'll get to in a second. Uh but uh as Alex said, this is a little bit of a a longer amendment and it's just because it kind of has to be to make sure that we have uh uh reach all the goals that we want to have with this. if you want to, you know, limit any kind of nuisance conditions that may arise and and things like that. Um, but just a summary of the amendment kind of as it stands right now, uh, would be to currently allow residents on smaller residential lots to keep backyard chickens. Um, we're going to the kind of mechanis mechanisms in the city code that are going to make this happen are going to be kind of removing some things that are currently under our accessory uses uh that are, uh, relating to animals. So livestock and kennel operations, things like that are going to get moved into a new uh section under our section 125, which is, you know, the main zoning code. Um it'll be titled 125-95, uh uh keeping of animals. And so um the stuff on this slide right here is mostly administrative, just to keep that in mind. Um relocating of the subsections, some minor text amendments, uh as well as um we needed to add to our use table. So, we have a use table in the city code that uh informs what uses are allowed on on certain within certain residential or sorry, sorry, certain zoning districts. And so, to allow for backyard chickens, um we had to add that as an accessory use uh for all all districts in the city. Um and then there's just some other minor text amendments. Chapter 1021 is kind of our animals ordinance. Um so, anything that is not kept to the standards that are in this amendment will be considered a public nuisance. And uh we'll get into that a little bit here later. But as far as background, so I know this has been kind of ongoing in the city of Rogers uh before I started here. Um uh Brett I know posted a survey back in late 2025 um after I know council uh as well as city staff had received multiple requests um from residents wanting or interested in keeping backyard chickens. So that survey was posted. uh over 558 responses um kind of just high level results of it. The some of the more detailed stuff is in the in your packet, but 70% of survey respondents uh did support uh keeping backyard chickens. However, most wanted to have minimum lot size restrictions. Um when asked kind of the minimum lot size that residents wanted to see, the vast majority responded with uh 0.2 acres. Um and then at the June 23rd city council work session, uh sta uh council did direct staff to uh start a draft amendment for this. And so that's kind of how uh draft ordinance and that's sort of what we're how we got to to this point today. So, um, kind of my research into this, uh, I looked at a bunch of different cities, uh, neighboring and within the metropolitan area. Um, and, uh, there's a lot of commonality themes that kind of most cities are are that at least allow chickens on small residential lots are are are using. Um, four to six uh, hens being allowed is is kind of the common one. um as far as whether or not cities have permits or not or a license to keep chickens, I would say that's pretty evenly split at least amongst the the 10 cities that we looked at. And then as far as issues that have come up the most, so um the most common complaint I reached out to a few different cities and the most common complaints that they were seeing from from residents were uh chickens roaming outside of their yard. And as you might expect, these complaints kind of tend to be seasonal. I know um a couple of respondents that that got back to me uh said that they tended to see more complaints in the summer or sorry in the spring and in the summer which makes sense. People get chickens early on maybe don't know you know how to take care of them initially or or what have you. So um and then this uh amendment ordinance we are only proposing to allow to keep chickens. Um ducks, geese, and other small birds would not would still be not allowed on small residential lots. And I would say that that's a as well it's a mixed bag. Some cities follow that, other cities kind of just have you can keep ducks, geese, whatever. Um, you know, so as far as our staff recommendations, um, we are recommending that the number of chickens allowed is based on the lot size of a res of particular parcel. Um, we're recommending that minimum lot size at 0.2 acres. A little bit background on that. So that was what we had seen in the survey. Um we recommend the we're recommending the 0.2 acres. We did a little bit of analysis into you know if we adjusted that number what would that look at look like as far as how many uh homes would be potentially excluded from this ordinance. Um if we bumped it up to 0.25 being the minimum acre acreage um that would exclude roughly 730 homes um within the city based on the analysis we did. Um, and then just something for uh commission to consider, uh, there are around 300 single family detached homes that are within that 0.15 to 0.2 acre. Um, so just something to consider. Uh, but currently staff is recommending 2 acres. Um, we're recommending only allowing these on single detached family residences only. [clears throat] We're not recommending a permit process, but instead having a very prescriptive ordinance that covers common concerns. And as I stated before, chickens only, not including, uh, ducks, geese, or similar, uh, birds. So, kind of a breakdown of how many chickens would be allowed in each lot. So, uh, on less than 02 acres, uh, chickens would not be allowed. Um, that 2 to 3 range, we'd allow four. And then that range, uh, would kind of scale up as your lot size increases. Um, currently right now in the city, only residents in R1 or agricultural zones with more than three acres are allowed to keep them. That would still they would still be able to keep them. Um, they'd either be able to keep 25 hens or uh the number of poultry permitted as livestock um units under subsection E, which is in the amendment as well. Um, the ordinance has regulations on the on caring for chickens. Um, so we'd require that all coups and runs are kept in sanitary conditions um to, you know, prevent odors, things like that. Um, manure and feed must be discarded of or stored in uh in leak proof containers until it can be properly. Um, and then as well as storing feed um in a responsible manner to prevent the attracting of pests. Um, some coupe and area run area regulations. So, coups and runs, um, if if residents uh would choose to keep chickens, they'd have to be at least 10 ft from any property lines and 30 ft from neighboring residential structures. Uh, this is another point that 30 feet from neighboring residential structures that uh staff is looking for feedback on from commission. Uh, we did some research looking at different parcels in the city that are on that right at that point 2 acres uh 2.2 two acreage lots. And there are some conflicts with that 30 ft where there's potentially going to be a few households that maybe will not be able to feasibly keep a a chicken coupe or or run on their lot without uh violating that that section. Um we don't think it's a very common issue, but there are a few lots, especially in those instances where uh maybe a resident's back lot is immediately abuing a side lot, um is is where that tends to be an issue. Um, so something to consider. Um, as well as coupoops and runs must be constructed with durable materials. This is something we got feedback from uh during the council work session. Wanted to make sure that residents weren't just putting their chickens out and like a cardboard box or something like that. It has to be an actual structure built with durable materials. Um, run areas had to be fully enclosed uh with a a mesh material including from above. The thought here from staff is that uh we're protecting your chickens from outside predators as well as protecting local wildlife. Um keeping birds from uh flying in and potentially running into issues or or contracting diseases, that kind of thing. Um as far as written into the code right now, the amendment would uh 200 square feet. So as long as your chicken coupe and run area was less than 200 f feet, it would not be considered an accessory structure. Um, currently in city code, accessory structures, there's a a limit on how many accessory structures your lot can have depending on what zone you're in. Um, and then just some other rules and standards. Uh, most runs and coups will need to be screened with a privacy fence or landscaping. Uh and the the rule on that is if uh it has to be set back more than uh 30 feet from any lot line. Uh if you're within that 30 feet from any lot line, either side or rear, we will require a screening of at least 6 ft or uh some kind of landscaping of of similar opacity. Um and then just uh the the slaughter chickens will not be allowed on lot on lots less than 1 acres. And then uh things like the selling of eggs. Um we just are going to ask that that has to abide by all city code and and the uh Minnesota Department of Agriculture also has standards with that as well. So some more summaries uh stuff on kind of what this amendment maintain uh includes. Um so like I said, we're relocating some subsections that are currently in accessory structures into that 125-95 keeping of animals. Um 12584D livestock and uh livestock operations will be relocated as well. We had to clean up some language around uh feed lot compliance just to make sure that we remain compliant with the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency. Um so there just some minor adjustments there. And then uh we had to add some definitions to our 125102 where we house all of our definitions for uses and various uh things in the code just so that there is clarity and and there's no confusion. And then additionally we had to renumber some tables. So in our chapter 125 zoning land development regulations we have tables that are numbered uh sequentially throughout each uh each of the sections. And to maintain sequential order, we just had to since we're relocating things, we had to renumber a handful of tables here that are listed just to make sure that it still flows. Um, and then like I mentioned earlier, chapter 10, which is our uh animal ordinance. Um, just some a minor text amendments there to reference the the newly created 125-95. So recommendation, this is a public hearing. Uh staff will recommend that the planning commission motion to hold the public hearing, discuss the propos proposed amendments, and recommend the approval of the ordinance to city council. Uh as I said before, staff is recommending a 0.2 acre minimum lot size based on council direction and a 2025 survey. Staff is also recommending 30 ft setbacks from neighboring residential properties. Uh, alternative commission recommendations could be reducing that minimum lot size to 0.15 acres andor those setbacks to 20 feet um from neighboring residential structures if we wanted to if staff or sorry if commission was interested in opening this up to potentially more uh residents. So that was a lot and with that uh opening up for questions here. >> Thank you very much. Um I think a lot of people are here excited to hear about this new ordinance. Um chickens uh have a lot of different um you know proponents and opponents. Um my question for you the district code here that you've written it has a lot of um must be this far must do this you know must meet these criteria but there is no zoning application there is no permit there is no license. What is the enforcement and if there is a problem can those you know duties or those those whatever the ability to have chickens can that be revoked? >> Yeah chair thank you for your question. Uh, I guess first, um, I'll answer kind of staff's logic. I guess if you are curious for like the reason we're not currently recommending a permit or license is mostly just based on the input that we have received from neighboring uh, cities and that the main issue, at least from the cities that we reached out to that that they're seeing are are mostly people letting their chickens run on the loose. And I think if we were if the feedback would have been a lot of things regarding inadequate coups or uh nuisance conditions like the uh like smells or something, I think a permit would have maybe been a more kind of the next the next step. But I guess the staff didn't see a permit process necessarily limiting people letting their chickens go out on the run or on the loose anyways. Um so that's kind of a little bit of background on that. And then as far as if there is uh a situation where there were nuisance conditions, it would be the same kind of uh process that you would have currently now for other nuisances in the city. Um as far as I know, Alec, if you want to. >> Yeah. So, so basically, so we we didn't get directed to have a permit process from council for for number one. Um and number two, just to reiterate, most of the complaints are nuisance related. So it would just follow the same nuisance procedure we have which is um a complaint sent off to the police department for our CSO to look at and then directed to any uh staff if if needed if there's even if there's um sort of a higher call for service there might be at least initially until folks get sort of used to how this might work. Um but it would be complaint based. So whether or not we want to do that in the future, we can we can add if we have issues that we think it might work better to have a permit, we can add that into the the ordinance later that can as you know zoning code is we update it frequently as frequently as we can to accommodate any any new things or any new issues. So that could be added in the future. Um, you could also recommend that that gets added as well and the council can can um review that recommendation at the council meeting as well. Um, I thank you. My question is um regarding permitting and then acreage your lot size. So I think my thought is an eitheror for the panel here. I think the um if a if a lot is basically any lot can have chickens in a coupe then listening to 500 respondents there's a lot of consensus for the nays to have fencing not just the coupe but to have a requirement to the the property owner to have a fence so that's where I would make a vote say 2 acres or [clears throat] 01. It might as well be because I'm not aware of a house that's been built on something less than like one acres. So if we're letting everybody that owns property a single residence in Rogers have chickens then put some tighter parameters around this. I I don't agree with going from 0.25 to 0.2 with no restrictions. And then the point of the permit um I think that's a missed opportunity. one, even for the city. Not everybody's in favor of the city gleaning revenue from things, but why not? Um, you can hand out an educational pamphlet on how to not be a nuisance with your chickens, how to follow um best practices with it. Um, so I think that a lot of these recommendations need to be vetted, Mr. Whoops, that's a little wild. Mr. Chair, mayor, council commission, >> talk about the parcel size. We talk about the zoning district. It seems to me that a whatever a uh mixed density residential R4 um may qualify if it's a 210 acre lot um or even, you know, a commercial enterprise on a um you know, general industrial um lot. they as a owner they may want to put chickens on their property. Would we would we allow that? >> So the requirements that we put in place follow the type of lot it is. If it's a single family detached structure then yes it qualifies. We did it that way because there are uh you know there are existing single family lots that may not have sold for development that are still farming or or so when we updated the 2040 plan uh to be what it is today properties were prezoned before development happened. So that put some lots sort of illegal non-conforming. Um uh so they there like for example by Cabela there's there's three or four large 5 acres homesteads to the east on VB lane. So right now they could not have chickens, right? So this this would allow them to have chickens. Those are five, you know, those are around five acre lots. So they would they would fit into um a you know the the maximum 25 hens could be permitted on those pro those properties. So that was on purpose. It it wasn't just because we thought it was a great idea to allow it on industrial property. Um it was to to do it that way was to make sure it followed the the single family use. When that use goes away then the chickens go away with it. Um, if you have concerns, we can rem we can clarify where specifically we want those, right? If you have concerns about them being if that adds confusion to the ordinance, we can certainly back those that table from having it being an accessory use in all the districts to backing it to uh to the R1, R2, R3, R4 districts um or the neighborhood district or whatever it is. >> Thank you. Um I think uh the issue comes down to compliance and I think that having that as a single family detach residence is is probably suitable enough. However, if there was a permitting process, um we would have the opportunity to have an inspector verify that the property is suitable, that the coupe meets the criteria, the run meets the criteria, that the food is stored in a sealed container and those things that need to occur. I I agree with the chair. Um I actually have a connection and spoke with the chaplain person who's in charge of the chickens. Um the reason they had a permit is um based on it's actually a building permit so that they make sure that the chickens are housed correctly. Um so and then I have another question regarding the the um the survey. Um, I saw a lot of feedback on it, but how do we how do we tell if the people that actually took the survey are from the city of Rogers? >> Mr. Chair and commission members. So, we had 560 responses on it. The intention is not to look at the each individual. It's looking for themes. I went through each one individually and if they were multip one individual doing multiple surveys back to back to back I would have seen that on that because you'd anticipate to see the same response. We had enough differentiation on it to show that it's not going by survey response that is that it's not all one individual doing it numerous times and then the comments related to are these people from Rogers or not. Again, we were looking for themes on it and I will state usually it's generally hard enough to even get residents to participate in surveys, much less anticipate residents from outside communities to also participate in those. >> Wow. >> So, we did quite a bit of research into that. We also, it's not included in your survey responses that you see there, had the ability for responding individuals to put their email down. And I would say about half of the respondents actually put their email down, which usually signifies that they would be a resident. >> Get that info later. >> I only asked that because multiple comments all the way back when we first put it on and up until we put on the announcement a few days ago. There's there's actually an individual on here says they voted. They don't live in Rogers, but hey, you know, thanks for admitting it. But um um there are people on here that strong support and when you look them up, he lived in Maple Grove. Um, there was a pretty good conversation going back and forth two days ago. The mass majority of them do not live in Rogers that are pushing for chickens here. So, I'm that's why I was concerned about the actual survey itself and how it represented the city. >> Mr. Chair and Commissioner, are you seeing Facebook comments? >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> That's where we did the survey when on the city's Facebook page. >> It was on the city page. It was a separate it was not a direct Facebook survey, >> but it was on Right. I I understand what you're saying, but most people went to it based on the [clears throat] post from the city's page on Facebook. >> It could have been on Facebook. It could have been other means. We posted in the newsletter. There was numerous other ways. >> It could have been, but I think that the survey would hold more water if it actually told us where they lived. >> We did look at adding that. It felt a little bit un un infringing on people uh to directly require their address to be put in for it. And then also from a staff perspective, we would then have to go and verify by address and then require the name to verify that that's actually them to do it. So there's numerous components and that from a staff capacity wise even dealing with the 560 was a lot and individually typing each thing that you see in your packet was quite timeconuming. >> I can I can I respond commissioner too my wife and I primarily my wife uh you know has had this fondness for chickens for the last 10 years that we've been here. Um I will be the one ultimately probably caring for any said chickens. So there's a conflict inherent there, but um I think that we're here for the people of Rogers regardless of 200 of these survey data points being from China. I don't I mean that's something that could exist. People could be spoofing a survey, but I I think that's the response to a valid concern. Um, I noted, you know, anytime you put certain topics up on on Facebook, social media, uh, wherever, um, you'll get some folks that are serious and then some that maybe aren't so serious. I saw somebody >> more that's not serious. >> Yeah. Since the comments, it's good entertainment as as, uh, citizens go and look at the survey. It's public information. Um, entertaining comments, good nighttime reading. Um but yeah, I think you you move on with the interest of the folks of Rogers. All right. >> Uh this is a public hearing. Do we have any more? Yeah. Go ahead. >> One other question. So assuming the validity of the survey, there is still a majority of people 50 not as significant for chickens, but there's 57% of people that supported additional um ducks and geese. Um why or I guess pigeons was was the one on the question. Um what was the thought process between not including that on uh any amendment if there if there was a majority? >> So that was council direction was to look at backyard chicken specifically. Um you know the if we choose to add additional things like beekeeping or doves or whatever it is those can be a future future amendments for sure. Um the big thing is backyard chickens, right? So we had some clean up to do already in the animals ordinance and backyard chickens have probably different requirements than apiaries do than um doves or pigeons do. Um and we can go down that route as well to see what other folks are doing. But, uh, this is a it's not the biggest and most important update we've ever done to zoning code ever, but it is it's a complicated enough issue as it sits now. Um, so that certainly can be looked at in the future. >> Sure. Thank you. I was uh just thinking of seeing if there's any other background information, but that's logical for why it's not included in this. Yeah, >> I guess I did want to talk about the the quantity of hens. It it does seem a little bit high uh to me. Um we can debate about this if you want, but my opinion is that we're we probably shouldn't have more than 10 hens just in generally. Um that's 10 eggs a day potentially. Champ Champlain I think limits a total to six no matter what acreage you have. >> I uh I didn't mark up my document. I'll tell you what I would like to see, but uh certainly open to other um opinions. Uh I was leaning towards the 210 310 as being the barrier for entry, but I guess uh after I looked at the 210 that would be like a 60 foot by 145 ft lot. So that that doesn't seem too um unattainable, but I'd like to see, you know, uh that 2/10 to an acre, you have four hens, one tent to two one acres uh two, sorry, 210 to 1 acre, four hens, one acre to two acres, six hens, and two plus acres or agricultural as as permitted. So um we yeah we can certainly feel that um the so some of so our animal units so we have backyard chickens doesn't use animal units um but we did want to be try try to be more consistent with not only the department of a requirements which had us staff upped the um animal units from 01 to 02 doubling the animal unit. Um, this is pretty well in line with the animal unit requirements. We can certainly have a different if you're half an acre or less, no more than four or whatever it is and over that six to 10 or whatever that number is. Um, um, we can certainly do that. Uh but this seemed to be sort of in line capacity wise as far as what is a reasonable number without having a ton of nuisance calls. Um and also being in line with our animal units requirements. >> So we can certainly have just no more than six, no more than >> 10. We can simplify the table. Um you can change those ranges. Absolutely. Um then we can afford that to the council. >> Let's see is uh up to six hens on at least 4/10en of an acre and then up to 10 10 hens uh over an acre. Um Champlain is four hens over 12,000 square feet, six hens over a half an acre. Um, it seems like there's usually like three or four categories of little checking quantities. >> I have a question if that's okay. >> Yeah, go ahead. >> Um, so for R1, does R1 currently allow chickens? >> R1 only allows chickens if you have three acres or more. >> And how many does that currently allow for? Uh currently one animal unit would be 100 chickens on three acres. >> 100 chicken. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's why I'm asking just kind of put it in perspective. >> So that's I mean that's a large number of chickens on a threeacre parcel. Um and as well as it doesn't prohibit roosters, right? So you've got noise issues um even on larger lots. So um the doubling of that animal unit was [clears throat] on purpose, right? It it does reduce the number to more reasonable number that is actually in line with sort of how the Minnesota Department of A handles um it animal units are based off of manure, right? So it's it's it's that's just how it's done for MPCA uh limits as well. So yeah, that's a large number. If so, um we would still need a table for any lot that is 3 acres or less to make sure that covers that chickens can be on R1 properties that are less than three acres. All right. Any further discussion? >> Just want to clarify one thing on that paragraph. Um the first green, it's 30 ft from neighboring structures, right? >> Correct. Not not property per se. 10 feet from the property lines and then 30 feet from adjacent neighboring residential structures. Yes. >> Yeah. Okay. Structures. >> That that wouldn't include their accessory units if they had a shed or something. >> No. No. Uh no, >> it's not intended. Uh so that we should make sure it's clear that it's the residents. Uh >> does it say residence? It might say >> we'll double check, but that should the intent would be for the occupied residents. >> Mhm. >> Correct. I guess I have one other question. So for the properties that were less than.2 acres, how many of those were in HOAs? >> Do you know? I don't we don't have an uh we didn't go out and and count. I would have it would have been a little bit of work to to extra work to do that, but I would say probably 90% of them. >> All right. So allowing them probably wouldn't make much difference because they're in HOAs. >> Correct. So what this does is allow it citywide, but if you are in a property that has an HOA that has additional restrictions on animals, the HOA rules would apply. The city can't apply those rules for the HOA, but the HOA would be the one regulating their own neighborhood requirements. >> Well, I'd like to open the public hearing. Um, is now open. Um, generally we open it to the audience and uh it's not that often we have an 11-year-old here that wrote us a nice letter. So, I'd invite uh Bean to come speak first about how you feel about chickens. If you would like to speak, if you're not comfortable speaking in public, that's okay, too. >> She is here. Oh, >> maybe maybe she just sent an email. He's not able to attend. >> Okay. address, please. >> My name is Matt Copang, 22194 Elm Parkway. Uh probably a big part of the reason why we're having this discussion today. Uh so we got a notice of violation approximately 20 months ago. Um and use my voice in the open public forum with the city council. So appreciate the former and current council members as well as the planning commission. had a lot of help with Alex Henderson and Brett for making me aware of this appointment today. Um, so we've had chickens on our backyard property for approximately the last two years. Um, the whole reason we got into it was a little bit of misinformation on my part finding some things that there had been a moratorum that had seen its time and those can only last for a year. So went through the process, came to the council meeting, asked for the open forum to be able to, you know, see what the city council would do. And very appreciative. My family's super appreciative. Neighbors are super appreciative that uh we've gotten the deviation as long as we have. I was not expecting that whatsoever. Appreciate all the time you put in the effort to get to where we are today. So I know there'll be a vote coming up in a couple weeks. I'm rooting for you. Um, so but at the end of the day, you know, me and my family took a long process to get buy in from our neighbors and to make sure that they were comfortable. Um, built a coupe. Uh, so some of the things that we've experienced as chicken owners that I strongly encourage the city council to consider as a part of what you're doing here is minimum square footage per bird. That's very important for animal health. It's very important for just the overall uh considerations as far as the design, the ownership. Provides commitment from the community that they're actually willing to do something. You know, we have several pets other than just our chickens. Um and unfortunately, we did have to put one of our chickens down. Um to your point, Peter, my wife made me take the chicken to the vet and we euthanize it. Um, but when it comes to quantity of chickens, I know this may sound ridiculous. Um, but when you look at a hen and specifically a layer, I think primarily what people in this community are interested is in layers for the eggs concerned about what's going into our food supply. Um, each bird can lay somewhere between, depending on the variety, if you get a decent layer, 250 to 270 eggs per year. So, as a family of four, we need more chickens in order to maintain our egg consumption throughout the year. And so, when we talk about limits on the number of birds, uh I don't know if there's considerations for that, but seven chickens, especially as you get into the winter months when they don't have daylight, they need at least 14 hours of daylight, you know, depending on what's happening to actually be producing eggs. And so when it comes to wintertime, there may only be one or two eggs a day, sometimes zero. And so when you consider what we're consuming, that doesn't get us enough to sustain that throughout the winter months. Now, we have a little bit of excess now, but we primarily restrict that to ourselves and family. We're not trying to sell eggs. It's all for our own internal consumption. So just some food for thought on at least quantity regulation. >> Okay. Question. How many chickens hens do you have? >> We have seven tens right now. No roosters. >> So, uh, what's been stated here laid out, does that suit your situation? >> We would have to eliminate one chicken basically, but also for more details on our property, we do have an entirely fenced in backyard. You know, we have an uh 12 by 8 coupe, so we have more than enough square footage per bird. um we took the lens. So if you look at what the um the US Department of Agriculture states it's a minimum of two square foot per bird to be considered free range. So if you are consuming freerange chicken eggs from the grocery store, think about the size of this is each bird has right. So we've provided a lot more excess than that. Um and to the point I'd really appreciate seeing that allowing free roaming of chickens. It's very helpful for our garden. Um especially as we come to the fall. Uh the other thing that we've seen is a reduction in waste. Um all of our fruit scraps, vegetable scraps, and all of our neighbors fruit scraps and vegetable scraps end up at our front door and ultimately in the backyard at the coupe. Um so yeah, just some thought on, you know, quantities of chickens. As far as from a nuisance perspective, uh, hens can be somewhat loud occasionally when laying, but it's not like the call of a rooster. Um, and it's usually limited more to so from a timing perspective. Uh, so yeah, that that's where we'd be affected right now is just eliminating one bird from our property. >> So I have a question too for you about like coupe design. So, I think it was mentioned coups are either elevated or on a slab. Is that something your coupe is? >> So, we currently don't have our coupe on a slab. We built our coupe all out of 4x4 timbers that were um treated wood. You have to be careful not to use cedar on chicken coups cuz it's hazardous to their health. Um so, right now what we do is we have the coupe resting on the ground. Um, we do have an elevated box for them to nest in. So, their roost and their actual area they lay eggs is elevated to prevent anything from being on the ground. They've got a little ladder to be able to get into there at night. Um, but then their run is, you know, completely just set on the ground, not on a slab. And so, we will routinely go in and replace the pine bark shavings and make sure that they have new ground to lay on. Um, chickens by nature, um, especially in the heat of the summer that we've all been experiencing, like to dig into the dirt to be able to give themsel a cooler spot to lay. Um, so, you know, we've got other provisions out there for them, heated water for the winter. Um, I'm also a strong proponent that in Minnesota we get weather hardy birds. So, our birds get no supportive heat over the winter. it's too big of a fire risk coming from my perspective um to be able to be running stuff like that out there. Um so some other factors like that. So our birds have survived just fine over the last few winters um with even with this cold weather. We just use simple plastic sheeting and some tricks that my wife learned from working at a nursery as a kid um to be able to insulate them from the winter. Um, in general, the chickens and the types that you could get in Minnesota, other than some of the fancier ones that um are more fun, uh, designer birds, I'll call them. Um, but um, yeah, our sole purpose is just, you know, eggs for the family and, um, responsibility for the kids. So, >> thank you very much. Anyone else from the audience like to speak? about being a chicken right now. [laughter] >> Um I guess I have some questions on He's a very responsible chicken owner. We can tell. Um what about those that are not and and who's going to who's going to inspect, you know, and make sure that these these by the way, what is a run? What is a run considered? >> So generally you have a coupe. >> Yeah. >> And there's typically a nesting box. >> Yeah. >> And then there's a run. And so the run adds to the square footage so that the chickens have area to roam. >> Okay. In the coop and they're contained in the >> It's a chicken wire enclosure with a roof over the top of it. Yeah. >> Versus fully enclosed. >> Okay. >> Good. Anyway, I guess I'm wondering who's going to um do inspections and make sure that all of this, you know, all of these um rules and regulations are being followed. Um and the chicken manure, I mean, how is that being disposed of, you know, and where does it go? And chicken manure stinks. I know because I grew up on a farm and uh let's see a lot of the questions that I had here have been answered through just discussion here. Um let's see I think okay and this may be uh going a little bit too far but you know we say chickens now where does it end? Where do on when if someone decides they want to have mini goats, those little pygmy goats and and things, you know, where where where do you where do you end this once we get it started? And I also um there's 15,000 people in the city of Rogers if I'm correct on the population. And I think 5550 people that want chickens is maybe not a fair assessment. Okay, these are just some of my concerns. I I just think that we need to make sure that things are monitored and and everybody is as responsible as this man on taking care of their chickens because chickens do roam and they do get out. [laughter] >> I know. Thank you. >> No, thank you. >> Excuse me. Did we get your name and address as well? Sorry. Thank you. Carol Ampy and I live at 13751 Dorothy Drive. And yes, that is a town. That is a uh uh twin home development. And I know there won't be any chickens probably around me, which is good because to be honest with you, I am definitely afraid of chickens. That's why I'm here. [laughter] And if anybody next to me did have chickens, I would probably move. That's how how adamant I am about it. But I just want it to be safe and fair and clean. And >> thank you. >> Anyone else like to speak tonight? I just have a state your name and your address, please. >> John Leblanc, 12469 Fletcher Drive. What about rental properties? So, it's a single family home. And as we know, there's a lot of rental properties that are commercially owned >> versus I own a rental property, per se. >> Okay. We can as we're coming into our area, you can spot the rental properties. They don't maintain the yards. They don't maintain the driveways. They there's no maintenance of the property. So now they're going to get a chickens, the renters. Have we thought about what that might bring? >> Again, Alec. >> Yeah. So it'll be complaint based. So if there are chicken owners who aren't following the ordinance, that would be a call to the cso and then um enforcement action. The ordinance does [clears throat] not restrict rentals from having like we typically, you know, our our our zoning code is not set up to uh decide one way or the other whether the owner occupied or the renter occupied have more or less regulations on not how our ordinance is set up and most ordinances aren't set up that way. Um, so when it comes to the whether or not the renter could have them is is more of a lease situation, right? And so if I'm if I'm living in an apartment, I might have an apartment unit that has the ability to have dogs or cats, but there's now there's pet rent or there's other things at that that um leasing agent can do or add to the lease that would restrict or require additional what have you to to maintain or to fix things that might have gone wrong with a pet owner. Right? And it can happen with dogs and and cats um where you've got those extra lease requirements for that. So that those specifically those items are or would be between the lease and the leaser. >> What's the endgame on enforcement? If there's a certain number of non-conformances, then we that >> if there's that's revoked or how does that work? So, if there's violations, it usually we'd send a warning letter first and foremost. If there's still violations present, it gets a misdemeanor charge and there's fines that are associated that can compound daily. Um, based upon how egregious the actions are, if it gets to the point of really being extreme, it can get a court order to remove the chickens or even larger than that. Um, in terms of mentioning the rental versus home ownership items, when there's zoning enforcement items, this extends beyond just chickens. The ultimately the proper property owner is going to be responsible. So that property owner if they have a renter and they have violations, that property owner is going to receive the fines and citations and then they are going to have to figure out between their lease how to get that figured out. But it's up to the property owner to maintain their properties correctly. If we were to have a permit process though, the landowner would have to attest to meeting the criteria. Correct. >> Correct. So the the owner would need to be on the application >> which for the next 12 months when leases are not being renewed. there would be a way to restrict that ability where people can't modify their lease, you know, to allow for the chickens, right? >> So, yeah, the the owner could say, "We I'm not going to sign off until we do lease or new lease updates or whatever it is if if we went the permit route, right?" So, or even if we get inquiries from, >> you know, >> the tenant is saying, "I'm allowed to have chickens and just force my, you know, force me." >> Yeah. >> Would a permit be reviewed every year or would it be a one time you get a permit and you're done? >> So, we just did away with dog licensing. some folks, some cities had CAT licensing. Um, you know, I don't know the right answer. I So, it becomes a it does become a huge time and staff commitment to do a permanent in the license program for animals in general. Um, we can go down that route. My instinct if we were to do this would be to do a permit and have the permit to hold the permit. It would be a permanent permanent approval so long as you are meeting the requirements of the ordinance and then we would have to go through some sort of revocation. I like for many reasons. I I think animal welfare uh just community safety avoiding cso calls. I would hate to be the cso getting inundated with chicken calls. >> He's not excited either. >> Yeah. And and and I I want to respond respond cheekily with I think I draw my line as long as I am a volunteer uh commissioner. I draw it at honey badgers. I think that's that slippery slope. Honey badger shall not pass. So but uh it comes back to permitting and I I think that a build permit would be prudent if that is something that other cities have used. um you make it a reasonable reach for residence and it's kind of approve it. you have to have some, you know, if it's USDA that states 2 feet per chicken. Um, that kind of dictates and you can have a minimum of or well, I guess a maximum, right? Maximum of 10, but whatever their minimum is, it's dictated by what size coupe they're willing to build out. >> Yeah. >> So, and then avoiding nuisances. CSO, I don't know. type certainly smaller properties a fenced in property as a requirement. >> I would agree with the permit just because um what I consider adequate construction might not be what you consider adequate construction and >> and what I consider adequate food storage might not be the same. I mean, I know you're going to need to use metal because you've got rodents, which they will come if you spill it or you decide the bag the food comes in is adequate. That's, you know, rodents can get through that. So, I think that's very important. I just have this vision of temp coups built by Amazon boxes of unplanned. Well, I would think the ordinance should uh prevent that because of the >> building stuff, [clears throat] but I wanted to comment something about permit and I'm not going to speak for other council members, but for myself, um I did consider it, but then as we're approaching budget season and trying to cut back on levies, um permitting has a person attached to it, which would be additional staff. it. So, that's something to consider. >> I would agree with you, Amy. That was the first thing I thought and I just think people are going to do it anyway without the permit. From speaking to other cities, especially the one to the east, um they're doing it without permits. So, either way, we're going to have to monitor it and people are going to call and tattle on each other either way. In my opinion, I I think I'm not a fan of the permit idea just cuz it's going to like Amy said, it's going to be attached to a person and we are already in budget season >> and we're trying not to attach additional people >> to the budget. >> There's quite an ask already. So, >> I just what stood out to me was cso visits with the neighboring towns and that being the primary suspect complaint. And so then it goes to it seems very prudent to put it into language. You have to have a fenced yard. First comes the fence and then you can have do whatever you want in the backyard. But your hens have to stay within the fence. >> I get what you're saying. I um the mayor of Maple Grove a couple days ago said if you think they're going to follow all the rules that you're setting >> I understand that but but you have to have some lines at state not going to do a permitting because of cost well then you're going to make causing headache >> toward the police department and their staff and their hours and their their budget to go out and knock on a door and say you can't have chickens roaming around. >> It's not going to reduce like >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm hearing that loud and clear. But enforcing an ordinance that's clearly states you don't have a fence in your backyard, this is not okay. It's a very easy line to check to say this, you're not compliant with ordinance, right? That that brings up a good point. Um, chickens get loose. Somebody's dog decides How's that going to How are we going But how are we dealing with that? Because it will happen soon if it's not under your control and not on your property. You're not >> same as a neighbor dog attacking your dog. >> Exactly. >> My name is Lori Mskco. I'm at 14153 Heather Ridge Drive. And um I was wondering I see pros and cons for permitting. Um I'm in IT. I I run a lot of regulations at work, so I understand both sides very very well. And I'm wondering if we can do a happy medium by having a educational pamphlet that hopefully that's right where it talks about coupe sizes and proper care of chickens and all that other stuff. So that if somebody is interested in doing this, they're going to probably see, okay, can I and we can have that ready front and center and easy to consume so that they can actually meet the ordinances that we're asking them to do. Thank you. >> Thanks. >> Well, that's an interesting um idea registration in lie of permitting so that we have a record of who has chickens. We could do a registration um where they they attest to the requirements that attesting that I'm meeting these requirements. Um here's my registration and we could do it that way. >> Thank you. >> We did draft the handout. We can certainly get some expert feedback. You know, I don't own I don't personally own chickens, so I I you know, I only know what I can read from, you know, U of M or whatever it is. So, >> uh quick thought on that pamphlet. We talked briefly on square footage. Just quickly looked at the U of M's recommendations uh rather than the USDA and they say a minimum of 3 to five square feet. Uh shouldn't be a range. I want to talk to whoever wrote that. So it's either but I would suggest that we increase it to that minimum of three and have that in the requirements. Commissioners, if I may, uh the ordinance will it I didn't it's not in this presentation, but the as it's written uh does state that uh chickens in their coupe area must have a minimum of 4T square feet of floor area and uh 10 square ft of uh run area. And that's those recommendations per bird. Those recommendations were coming uh directly from the U of M's outreach page. >> Does that work with your structure size requirement and number? I mean, does that math all work out? >> So, yeah, four times six. Yeah, it works out for as far as what doesn't require a building permit. It doesn't necessarily say the the foot footprint has to, but those those nesting areas are are that um amount. So, I I mean, you can think of it as gross square footage for seconds storyried chicken. I don't know. You know what I mean? So, um, we can get in we can get into to that. The run itself was is basically considered a fence. So, if if it's covered by like the mesh or if it's not a solid roof, then that is um not counted towards that square footage. But once you put a roof on, if it kicks the square footage over 200 square foot, then that's then that it does require a building permit. That is now a structure that's regulated by state building code. So um the ordinance I mean as far as do I need a permit for the chicken or the coupe or whatever. It just depends on the size. If that coupe is is 200 square more than 200 square feet, then that does trigger a building permit. So, >> but the coupe size, bird number for lot size, all that's going to work out. So, we're not saying chickens, but the coup's not going to >> correct. Yes, >> sir. Uh Jim Gman, 20885, uh [clears throat and cough] 124th Avenue. Uh, I appreciate the comments on permitting. That's actually the primary reason I came tonight because the ordinance says no permit. Um, nuisance complaints are primarily going to come from the adjacent neighbors sides behind. Uh the young lady that wrote the email asking for your uh be able to do that said she went and talked to her neighbors and got approval. >> Uh this gentleman apparently has also done the same thing. He's canvased his neighbors and they've approved on it. Just that simple step is going to greatly reduce complaints to the police department. I personally went through a situation uh someone out of compliance on a dog ordinance and it was hell. Two years police got involved. It went to court. It went back and forth. So, all I'm saying is there's been a number of comments about permits. Just do the right thing and go down that path and you're going to greatly reduce the nuisance complaints and the overbearing of the police uh chasing those. I agree that there'll be a larger number that'll be fully compliant, are doing it for the right reasons, but you're always going to have and if you have that person next to you, you're putting that whole burden on that >> law-abiding resident that's got to put up with that. >> So, do the right thing. put the permit in place. And thank you. >> Thank you very much. >> Well, actually, one last comment. Uh your survey that you put up, uh you know, what do residents of Rogers like? 62% the highest response quiet neighborhoods. So, fair point. Hi, I'm Carrie Lance. We live at 13659 Superior Court. Um, I just wanted to thank you for considering this. Um, 3 acres is a lot to need to have to have chickens. Um, we've looked at lots, you know, but I think again, you kind of look at there's not a lot of lots for sale in Rogers that are three acres or above. And so I think when you have families that want to have their kids to be able to have opportunity, you know, to to experience that. Um, it's a large lot size to have. So, thank you for considering it and looking at it. Um, on the permit side, I I think I hear both sides. I hear where it seems more issues come while you have the chickens. So, I don't know how the permits, you know, would fix that part, but I don't know. But thank you for considering. I just really appreciate the work. >> Thank you. >> Public comments. Anyone want to speak? >> That if there is someone that is not compliant, it will take a court order in the end to get them to chair and commission. So if there's an complaint that's received, we would go substantiate that complaint. That's what we do with every sort of complaint that we get. If we do substantiate that there is a complaint, they'd be written a warning letter. Usually there's 7 to 10 days warning to rectify that complaint. Um, usually if it's like your chickens are loose, it's more of an immediate thing like this can't happen again. This is your one warning on it. If there is a violation, again, it would get a misdemeanor. If there's a complaint or issues that continue, the city can seek court orders. This is similar to a junk vehicle or anything. That would then get a judge ruling that there could no longer be birds kept at the manor. >> Would that be the same if there's mistreatment of the bird? If there's mistreatment, there are actual state statutes and federal stat regulations that pertain to the actual treatment of animals. Usually that would be above my or I think any of our staff's knowledge of how that really works. >> So then it gets forwarded on to the appropriate regulatory agency. >> I have a list of the animal welfare laws right here. I can give them to you before we leave. All right. U like to close the public hearing. Motion to close. I guess I can just close it, right? Need a motion. >> I have a motion to close the public hearing. >> I move close. Second. Second. >> All those in favor say I. Public hearing is closed. So,