e e e e e e e e e e the meeting of the Planning Commission in North St Paul on April the 3 20125 and as I understand it our city council liaison will do roll call for roll call for roll call uh commissioner Jim rothy here commissioner Cameron Munich here commissioner Elizabeth catboy here commissioner Stephanie K bbec here and commissioner Arthur Alvarez here Vice chair Andrew Weiss here and chair Patrick B here also here is city council liaison Jason nordby thank you excellent thanks we could probably do that ourselves but you know the patterns of behavior are it's just a real shakeup to not have the staff member here so got stay in the garage we're glad you're here all right um we have a fairly short agenda tonight um could lead to some discussion of note um does anyone have anything um if there's nothing to change on the agenda I would uh entertain a motion to approve the agenda I'll move to approve the agenda uh from commissioner Weiss uh second I'll a second second from commissioner RI all in favor say I I and then we have meeting minutes from January the 2nd it's been a couple months crazy that's so long ago yeah I can't remember what we did on January second no I did I actually read it but um if there are um I I would entertain a motion to adop or to approve the meeting minutes from January 2nd I'll make a motion motion from commissioner Ry a second I'll second second from commissioner Alvarez any discussion on it if not uh all in favor say I I we have unanimous on the meeting minutes um meeting is open to the public now uh for items not on the agenda if there's anyone here that wants to speak to that no and we do not have public hearings tonight so we're doing commission business commission business being review of the parks and open space master plan as I understand it um it is intended that we make a recommendation to um the city council with regard to adoption of the park and open space master plan is it Parks it's Parks plural sorry parks and open space master plan um do we have a representative from the um Parks and Recreation Commission that could maybe highlight some points because I know the commission had some things to say Obviously putting this together is there anybody here to to have not to put anybody on the spot we were can but just here answer any questions okay don't know okay yeah I don't want to put anybody on the spot we didn't talk about it in advance so um I don't know that I saw anything that was particularly um in in question for me no I mean this I want to commend you guys this is a really really really great report super helpful covers everything that I would have wanted to see very clearly described um really really good job and I appreciate that it helps everybody when all the information is there and easy to easy to get into um yeah I mean I it looks good to me I don't really have anything that I would add to it or um I think it it's very thorough um it's really a great report I don't have anything to add um I do have a couple of questions one one is um with regard to Silver Lake Park there's mention of um Community interest in having lifeguards present um is that is that just a cost decision the city needs to make primarily I assume yeah that so that isn't my name is Laura by the way Laur uh and this is Dave Dave on the Parks Commission um that's something that the community wants but it's not necess neily something that we address specifically in this report as like a high level priority historically we've had to have fund raised to have um lifeguards at the beach and one of our commissioners did that with the Silver Lake Splash for a very long time but it was a very big undertaking um and so it just kind of fell to the wayside at Co and hasn't really come back but it's definitely a piece of feedback that we've heard and are considering as we move forward okay that used to be paid through from the City and when they had cut BS that's when the flash kind of took over and started doing fundraisers okay we would like to see that eventually revert back to the city itself some kind of budgeting somewhere do you have any idea like what what's the amount that it would take to cover a summer that's a good question definitely something we can come back to and probably something we should look into as well so we have that number as we're making those decisions okay could probably do some uh interpretation interpolation I guess is the right word um from previous when it was being paid for um yeah and then inflation and such to try and figure out what that is yeah we definitely in some manner or another I expect the council would benefit from that absolutely um the other thing I I would commend you for for the work done on especially on um mcnight Fields um we I was in attendance at one of the community meetings where the where some of the park and Open Spaces were talked about and that one and some of the smaller ones as well [Music] um there's an awful lot of options to try and sort through and I think that um this report puts clarifies some of that and and at least EST lishes some goals for things to do so I I'm my Commendation for that well and we have to shout out hga who's the firm that we hired to do all of this we went through a whole process of interviewing a bunch of different options and they just continue to stand out for the all the reasons that you're talking about their level of detail the creation of a report that's easy for everyone to read not just Engineers to read um and they're specializing in community engagement and in meaningful conversations um so that all people in North St Paul have a voice in what that Park is going to look like so that's why we chose them they absolutely delivered um and we're super impressed and grateful to them as well that's good I do have a question from a personal standpoint yeah uh and first of all I never sure is it house or housy Park housy housy okay uh I see that the ball diamond is going away uh does that mean that we will never get ice skating there again as well or is that already off the table cuz I know that they haven't had an ice rink there in a couple of years so I was the one who created Fire and Ice that runs at housy Park which was one of the reasons we got the rank back there so we could have like a small neighborhood Festival um that the only reason that didn't happen at howy this year is because there was some change in Staffing that happened at the city level and as the new person came and started planning events that the fact that it was at housy previously wasn't known so um I don't think that the answer is we will never have ice there we just didn't have it there this year last year it was too warm yeah could do it if you every time I planned it it would be we would have snow it'd be freezing and then it was like 45 that day and so we were just like okay oh yeah no there's there's no accounting for the weather yeah and I can speak a little bit to that as well um just because we did get some public comments about the park um that I've discussed with the city manager there were some residents that were disappointed that there was not ice we did not get those in time but my understanding is there is intent to have the rink there I don't know but any of the events but at least a rink there next year cool yeah cuz I saw that they're supposed to put an ADA trail and I guess it's going to go through the area of the diamond or something like or either that or else they couldn't make the diamond uh a Ada accessible some it didn't exactly explain why it just said that that was the reason it was going away because of the Ada requirement so y the the only other thing I would say is will you run will you read through one more time and just make sure things are up to date uh and I didn't notice much but for example there is one point where it says that uh the construction of the new apartment building where the Lily off or lily newspapers used to be is Ono going and so you know just well it wasn't that in uh that was in the design manual no that's also it's also under Housing Development Trends on page uh 15 of the uh parks in open space I think that's coming from like we've been working on this for a long time I I know so I think that's just the when we started that's where it was and I think they want to maintain the Integrity of the journey that we took to get there but I definitely share that with them well and like I said I just wanted to mention that I I have to write these things too sometimes so I know that no matter how diligent you are and things change over time anyway so I just mentioned it definitely but it's not to me a it's not a deal killer if it stays in there it's an excellent you know I was very impressed and honestly I didn't realize we had as many parks as we do I know you know there were there were five or six of them that I I think I've driven by and never realize there were par was Park yeah um is there anything that the two of you would say really stands out that that you would look at our our current either current Parks or future Parks anything that really stands out in your own mind having been involved in in the planning that you would say oh this this is like my number one excited about like my number one thing that kind of a deal is there anything like that just you can go yeah I think mcnight Fields bringing it back to life specifically those tennis courts we've been talking about it we've been talking about mcnight tennis courts since I joined the commission like I seven eight years ago um they're in complete disrepair and they're pretty visible from the street too and it's not super appealing um so I'm really excited that that's something that is going to be redone and that HDA and the community thought creatively about how we can put flex fields in there so that multiple Sports can use it and highlighting the fact that we didn't have as many soccer fields as we thought we did so how can we put in the flex fields that allow for soccer or footall or you know other um small games in that space and make it like an inclusive sporting center yeah that's very good yeah if you're going to do if you're are going to do soccer I'd also encourage that you have the facility for rugby there as well because there's a big lack of rugby pitches in this area and if they can accommodate soccer they can usually do rugby I'm an All-American women's rugby player so you're all about that with the flex Fields we'll be able to do some of that one of the things we are trying to also incorporate at mcnight Fields is also a place for skateboarding and the BMXs which um you know 10 years ago I would have said n not not now but now today and seeing what some of the stuff that's happening uh yeah I'm all for it I think the kids need a place to be able to burn off some of that extra energy and if you look at some of our plans from uh HDA there there's other stuff for the kids that are in uh you know the 13 to 18 year age place for them to go and do stuff too so uh mcnight right now is one of our most excited ones um the one that's on Third Street or Pleasant or we just get all everything and we got pick a name for that which one you're talking about play one or the down the like Corner downtown no the other one the natural play the natural play area that I think is really necessary and that one uh moving forward with all the new developments and stuff would be a huge asset it's just a big huge wood lot now so I think in in the future that would be kind of like a nice entryway to to North St Paul yeah for sure I love the the downtown triangle or whatever you want to call it too that's it's small but it's such an important moment driving into town and whether you're coming from the Gateway Trail or from you know the South so yeah it's that's they were calling that one the front porch Park cuz it's kind of like that and so that's kind of the they were going for yeah I love it one thing I um wanted to bring up is Southwood preserve and they bring up the fact that it's often used as an educational site it is not accessible and if that is something that I realize MoneyWise it's probably not feasible in the near future but is it something that's in the plans um Oakdale Park is beautifully done and that asphalt is put in nicely um I don't I I think it would be nice to make that accessible MH uh Southwood AG preserve is set up that way to have more of the wood chips and stuff it's easier on dogs and everything and he wanted to keep that as close to being natural as possible oh I understand that but it's also not an accessible space and it is used as an educational space so there's um high level answer to that very very indepth um question is uh historically Southwood Nature Center was predominantly managed by a task force of volunteer um and it it they are still there but they are not nearly as active and so over the past couple of months we've worked with the city and the task force and the commission to say that really the city is going to maintain that Park and um the volunteers can submit like possible projects that they want to do um so the future of Southwood is absolutely something that we're talking okay um about it's a very emotional and delicate conversation but it's not feedback that we haven't heard before so um it's definitely something that we're aware of and going forward with any new park development we're required to make it Ada accessible yep um and that's at you know one of the top bullets that we're considering in every piece all right great thanks I just wanted to bring it up I realized it's not feasible at the moment yep I I definitely appreciate the feedback yep well and it's it's always a bit of a challenge to figure out that mix between the natural and the and the accessible because it doesn't blend well sometimes no but we do have an opportunity to kind of like play and explore with that natural play area that we're creating right now um cuz we are taking a completely natural area and turning it into all accessible Community um like there's going to be a community garden there's Trails throughout there's uh you know you can climb on logs so that's a good place to so that's kind of our like we're learning right and then we can take that learning and bring It Forward great let me just put in a word of caution though from somebody that's working for the state right now and we're getting a lot of feedback from the federal government you might kind of want to soft pedal the accessibility statements right now because that's one of the re one of the things that they are going through reviewing and turning things down because they talk about develop you know accessibility so much as I hate to say it it's true you know yeah and we also are mandated to like any new park stuff that we is required to be Ada we're going to follow that guidance until uh we need to have a like higher level conversation with the Federal government but as a Parks Commission Ada is our priority as we move forward but yeah M also great work on this yeah say that again this is a beautiful packet yeah now as long as we in the city are paying attention to it when new new opportunities come up that's the that's one of the important things don't forget it's here please don't we've literally been working on it for but but I I think in general the parks and recck commission has done a really good job of being active and and really putting forth some putting forth ideas and not letting them drop and I think that's really important and I appr the parks is very visible and it is appreciate it and as someone who has scars from the old playground equipment at howy like it's it's it's very nicely done awesome it's been nice to see the new signs too yes yeah they look classy don't they they look good and as always we're always open to feedback around the parks even if it's like we found graffiti under this slide like send us an email when you see it send us a picture we'll get Public public works out there to take care of it so always open to that I will admit I was curious as I was reading through this do you get a lot of requests from older residents to replace the what was it the triple screw slide that used to be I have scars from that one too no but we have a nice commemorative sign out there highlighting the history and I didn't I didn't think they'd bring back the steel slide I thought maybe they might put something into you know mod materials got taken down after that car hit it yeah is for three years it was we want you know time will heal a lot of things not all but you know I would really recommend that we make it a habit of giving uh new Commissioners and new city council people uh copies of both of these items so that they're aware of them and they have them to refer to in the future that's a good idea very good point Jason you should note that down for the notes there you go something you can report back yeah exactly got to make make yourself useful all right is there any other questions that we can answer I have one and I need to uh lean on your expertise as I'm still a fairly new um council member in in the scope of Rec the Planning Commission recommending this to the city council typically is there any history of how granular or in the weeds the Planning Commission would review something like this um one of the questions um that was brought up um when it was presented to um the city council uh in the master plan the new nice park space that was going to be a triangle MH um one of the questions that was brought up or or somewhat talked about was um what is the parking requirements for a park and did that park meet what the current um uh parking requirements are for a park um not having a ton of experience I didn't know if questions like that would be answered in a setting of this nature or is this just a general overview good questions um my assumption would be that H can considered that they're extremely thorough and they anytime we hit like a snag or anything they brought it back to the team and we're like Hey how do you want to troubleshoot this what should we do um I don't specifically remember a parking conversation around the parks um definitely something we can ask of them and then to answer your other question um I think it's my understanding that this is an opportunity for you all to see it and we us ask any questions and if you had any like really intense concerns that you were like I don't think I can like move forward that you would share that with us um but overall it would be the request that you all are in support of the plan that we're doing and then we could have the questions that you have come like come to us and then back to you that as kind of convoluted but no it makes sense I just I didn't know what to expect I didn't know if this was going to be a thre meeting long conversation where we're reviewing every Park to see if it meets every all the city codes and and everything within the city or if this was just a general overview and I I appreciate your you know um uh helping me learn I just didn't know what to expect yeah just general overview probably as Council you're applying way you're applying a lot more scrutiny to these documents here in this capacity it's we are in support of this I mean yeah that's my understanding too I mean I was actually amazed to see the demographic information as a part of the the parks mean I didn't expect that um but it's kind of intriguing as I start looking at it I'm like the this gets present to the city council you guys will have to sit down and kind of go yes we agree with this or we disagree with this uh we're just asking for their endorsement right we can move forward with it so we can kind of say yeah we've presented it it's okay so we know that that's our guideline to continue going forward you know so there's not any changes um over a year ago it was asked of us to look at mcnight Fields the one downtown Little Triangle next to the VFW and the one on Third Street they asked us to look at that and come up with something and that's when we put out some bids to different companies and uh hga is the one that we like the best um and we worked with them for just over a year now that so I think between the park commission and our contractor I think we've done a nice layout but it's still up to city council they may say no we we're going to put a parking lot there yeah no no I mean I I I the work you did is awesome the the hga and I can't thank you enough this is just wonderful I just didn't know what to expect when Taco Bell or Dunkin Donuts was brought before this commission there was a conversation about moving a sidewalk one foot because they were worried about line of sight coming a corner so I didn't know the level of discussion this was going to be so I just was looking for education I think if anyone saw anything that was blatantly not in line with yeah you know C we would we would address that yeah I guess the one question that does jump out is how do you guys plan to use this information I mean what's your purpose it's it's well put together there's no question about it and thankfully for doing so but long term how do you plan to use the information that you have together what's what's the purposes we're going to all the things we're going to do all like we're going to move for we're going to move forward with the building of the three Parks but we can't do that all at once because we don't have the funds to do that so what we're going to do is choose a place to start um choose a park more than likely to start with and then move forward on that um and then also use those as opper as a learning curve of how we're going to implement the other two parks that answer what you're asking okay and part of we have a like 10e plans and saw five and 10e plans so um for instance if there's a shelter at Casey Lake that we know that's going to have to be replaced that's part of our Improvement plans to continue to move forward with those things certain playground equipments uh will have to be upgraded and changed out playground equipment is good for about 10 years then the plastic starts to get brittle and stuff like that so moving forward we're trying to find it stuff that we can interchange from one site to the other rather than each one being unique because playground equipment itself is extremely expensive but as we move forward we want to kind of start getting things a little more uniformed so that's why we have this plan so it's the inform the public of what we have here in the city and kind of where we plan on going we may fall short on a couple things but some stuff I'm sure we're going to shine as we have for several years like Pat when we worked on Casey lak building you know that was is that that Park shelter or that park building and the and that large playground there were kind of done about the same time the same time that what was that 8 years ago nine years ago N8 n years ago something like that believe or not and that and that Park it's used years and now I'm back on so yeah cuz when we it was the playground kind of happened just before cuz we used the old booya building to store all the tools cuz that was a complete Community build which I think I loved it most people that were in the neighborhood loved it then we started the new building cuz one of my last things as a commission at that time was building casy Lake building remember you and I worked on some of that stuff together quite a bit yeah and that and that Park that playground is just there's people there all the time except the heavy deepest part of winter you don't see people there but other than that there's always yeah this this plan is to to inform the public what we have um and gives us guidelines where we need to be I think to back the question up just a little bit though to answer your question and I learned this being on the parks committee you make all the plans we want on the parks committee then it comes here this is what this is for today and then it goes to city council MH and then they ultimately decide so they can make these great plans and this this is a good one but then ultimately it's going to have to to be okay like like like you said you know they might decide to put a parking lot there but that's the process I think that I think that might be the question you were asking yeah there's this very clear and organized Park prioritization table but I mean whether that happens yeah right and in addition to that I forgot to mention we also have our Park Improvement plan so they're paralleling each other right so the park Improvement plan is what we've historically done what we're doing right now and what we're going to do in the next 5 to seven years this is happening parallel to that as we're improving everything else so those are our two guiding documents as we move forward thank you very good and Jason as a city planner usually the parks would be on the city of this size you have two different levels of parks you'd have the neighborhood park that are usually don't have parking planned because they're meant to be accessed by people walking and bicycling and then you'd have the few larger parks where you would need to have parking because you're have a larger a catchment area yeah so because if you think of housy Park there's no parking lot except for trail there's nothing there except Bes side the road yep cuz they're more in in the community area yeah and I 100% agree with you I just I know I'm not up to date on what parks were built when things weren't required and as new stuff you know is is are things have changed and yeah are things required now um y the most of the emails I have gotten about um this meeting and when the um uh when it was before the city council to um all centered around um Ada accessibility and things of that nature and that was why I asked the one question to the hga about what level of ADA planning was put in um to that it's required that any new park builds and maintenance of parks consider making them Ada and the only reason I say consider is like we are making them Ada it just takes a little bit longer as to pour concrete and figure out exactly where it's going to go it's expensive as you know so one thing I'm curious about and it was reading through the report uh it mentioned that howy was Park number four from the original plan I'm just curious do we have anything that shows where the other three Parks were because I think that's the only one that was originally laid out with the Plaid of the Town that's that's left the Tower Park I think was one of them to would be I think to would be and Silver Lake was one yeah so those would probably me three you used to have the Canon Park up here but that's long yeah the where vets Park is yeah well it was it was yeah it was over in the neighborhood anyway right in that same vicinity cuz the Canon got moved a couple times didn't Canon's down this now it's over there but it got moved even a couple of times while it was over in this neighborhood like I said I was just curious so it back to you on that yeah I should know that I should know the answer to that because I've been here long enough well I don't think you date back to the 1888 no that's true not the original plan that's absolutely right is there anything else that we can answer for you for the parks I guess not okay thank you very much really appreciate you being here thank you thank you good seeing you guys again so um I don't know if we need to do a motion but I think we should we should do a motion um uh formulating that motion I'm not sure what it should be um to accept or to perhaps to recommend to council um approval of the like full acceptance or something yeah something along those lines in reading the recommended action staff recommends commission recommend approval to the city council of the parks and of the parks and open space master master plan yep you need to recommend it you need somebody to make that motion I will make the motion exactly what Jason just said the motion second it exactly the motion made by commissioner rothi and seconded by commissioner muick all in favor say I I hi we are good thank you that's still kudo's plan by the way yeah yeah really good really really good work I've seen larger cities that did not have any anything anywhere near as clear and well spelled out yeah very well thank you have a good day the next item on the agenda has to do with discussion of the downtown design manual um this in my conversations with the city manager um this is anticipated to be a multi meeting sort of discussion not a we have to do anything with it necessarily tonight um I think the most notable thing that he brought to my attention and he kind of raised a question um do we need it it's a good question um does the zoning ordinance adequately cover what we care about in the downtown area and I think that's a really good question um so I've been noodling on that myself and and I think what the design the downtown design manual does that the ordinance does not is it brings um various guidelines subjectivity recommendations um Aesthetics it brings other things in that the ordinance does not in my opinion that it can't probably and really can't right it's really not the ordinance is not designed to do that it's designed to you know establish setbacks and things like that and I think as I look at the design manual which I don't have right in front of me but the um I think that's what's of value to it yeah I saw you had it there so I just didn't I'll pass it I didn't have time to I didn't have time to do that today um but that that's the the one thing that kind stands out in my mind I'm curious what you guys feel about that I would agree with that I feel like it's a pictorial representation of what the zoning ordinances are saying and it gives people uh a way of imagining how something could fit within those zoning ordinances uh so I definitely think it's it's worth pursuing worth doing it's I think it's it's really uh it's a piece of the design and historical review board I think that they don't exist anymore um but I think it it's good that it's not uh it's not there's no requirements in it it's just suggestions and um some of the suggestions I think maybe are a little bit dated now but um I think it's worth having maybe in a slightly different paired down form um because I think it was trying to do something a little bit different when it was created than what it would need to do now um but I think it's great to have imagery showing what we would hope you know developers would come in and and show us um so I think it's it's worthwhile to keep I think it maybe just has to transform a little bit but it's you know it's a lot of um a lot of cities used to have things like this where it was requirements you know you had to use these three materials or this percentage of this material and form based code yeah exactly yeah um um and those are I think a lot of cities are moving away from that um but for a town like ours where we really are and and and this is this is specifically speaking to downtown right it's not a overarching thing so um and our downtown is so unique and such a huge part of town that I think it's good to have some form of suggestive imagery to go on it I think that's I think that's wise does that mean we uh come back next time with uh maybe some recommendations then as far as any changes or additions or deletions we'd like to see or what would be our next step I I think it would be good if if we would have an opportunity to review it um in Greater detail and yeah and maybe bring suggestions to the next meeting I think that would be worthwhile so Andrew you feel like it could be updated to maybe reflect more the current needs that we have so maybe those are things we could bring yep and I think there's a lot in here that we could probably take out sure um but yeah I think I mean it it's really basically it's it's like a a book you would read in you know Urban in an urban planning class I mean it's it's not anything magic it's it's the typical things that um make sense for any sort of urban downtown space um but it's good to have especially when there's you know specific examples that relate to to our downtown MH um but our downtown has changed a lot since this it it has yeah well it's it's interesting to look at things like um on page 12 well I guess it would be 12 and 13 where they're talking about downtown as a place yep yep yeah and to think of how the downtown has developed since this document was created and how different it is yeah from that time I think that those are the things that I think we need to recognize and decide okay let's do this with it um based on what is happening now yeah Max dinette I had I'd never actually seen a picture of Max dinette before the original one yeah yeah commissioner B would you be okay if I all uh recommend a possible third alternative to that have been discussed of course um one of the things I would possibly suggest is to take a gander at the um the uh the official name the North St Paul comprehensive plan 2040 mhm I 100% agree with what you saying that the the downtown master plan needs to be kept one of the third or a possible alternate solution might be to condense it and have it be a chapter or a section in the comprehensive plan rather than its own separate document okay what's the status of the comp plan now it's it's online you you can all look at it when was it I can't remember when it was last redone 2018 give or take a year uh do you remember not off the top of my head I remember I remember reviewing it as part of my work with mindo and I've only been there since 2016 so yeah well I'm pretty sure it's was either 2018 or 2019 but do a do a comparative um not an analysis so much but but at least some form of evaluation does it need to live by itself or could it live within that document M and actually on the regular timeline you guys are probably going to have to start updating it again within the next year to two years anyway I believe year and a half two years is what we were told so it would be yeah the no the the 2020 the 2040 2040 comp plan and the 2040 comp plan refers to the downtown design manual in it but it would be it would be good to make that decision and then then when you agreed then they'll become part of the 2050 comp plan right yeah I think that's a good idea it's always it's always good to have agreement information in one place right that you don't have to look in multiple documents and yeah and where where this came up a little bit was um the the proposed plan um across the street here they were looking at putting in um a commercial Venture of some sort and the 20 the 20 240 comprehensive plan didn't necessarily agree with the downtown design manual um so there was a little bit of a circular reference that not not a big surprise there that's really easy to do that that was one of my concerns is that is there information in here that conflicts with our ordinance in some form or the comp plan for that matter so those are maybe the things we should focus some energy on and um to what degree we can do some do some run through yeah um over the next month there's I mean there's certain things as a as a Planning Commission that we can't we can't comment on right the Aesthetics of things I mean we're not we have to be really careful about what when we're giving feedback to somebody what we're actually commenting on right if there's yes but if there are conditions right yeah for conditional use for instance we can right you can add that in right um so there are there are variables there to consider um but I think that's one of the values of this document is some of that is presented so that a developer can come in and look at this and say oh okay they kind of like this sort of flavor this is kind of what we're looking for as a city and so um you're giving them those sorts of guidelines hopefully making it easier yeah right to develop yep and I think it's that was that's my only thought is is there a benefit to having it separate I don't know you know if it's if it's separate from the comp plan we could I don't know I'm not sure how you know that works legally but um I guess where my head is we could suggest more um drastic things than what we could in a comp plan probably I guess is what I was thinking but yeah maybe could it be done as an appendix to the comp plan could be that way it could maybe possibly be more easily separated if somebody wanted it just that yeah you know MH I will email the lawyer and the city manager about your specific question if there's more restrictive guidelines in the com comprehensive plan versus the downturn design manual because that's a great question that would be a really good way to deal with it it becomes part of the count plan and and yet as an appendix it can be easily isolated it's a good good idea are any of the buildings downtown on the historical register uh the PO office post office post office I think might be the only one um I don't know if there's any other on the historic register Newman's would be the only one that I don't think it is there are some old buildings there that if you go to North St Paul Historical Society you can find but I would think the post especially with the WPA yeah M yeah with the murals yep for as long as we good to keep it yeah in perusing the comp plan there is a fair amount of guidance for look so I don't think it's going to be super constrictive but definitely we'll still get legal guidance on that M we should do the walking tour sometime yeah the walking tour that that is kind of a fun thing my wife was asking me where was the train depot I don't know if it it's in it's at the State Fair Now Fair yeah unfortunately it is um not being used by the state fair we found this out on Tuesday really um so if anyone a few years has interest in it it sounds like I don't think it'll move it again let's move it back put it by the Gateway Trail exactly it used to sit what would be probably where the uh entire medical building is over there right over in that vicinity I thought it was on this side of it was pretty close to where the like between the Snowman and that building it was right over in that area okay is that the same one that's is pictured in the uh in the design manual yes it's right on that first page I think isn't it or right near the beginning yeah it's there's a one of those shadow pictures yeah it's this Shadow picture right right there on page one that's interesting I didn't realize that that was ours yeah that's it yeah cuz I've been looking for pictures of that for several years now and hadn't been able to find one but there's no context so you can't tell where in the world it is yeah um it's also interesting to look at where the street car used to run oh that's a whole another yeah piece of History that's really interesting about North St Paul yeah it's really weird that we were the only town in the area that had the street car down an alley behind the buildings yeah everybody else everybody else put it on Main Street North St Paul yeah see and and that's something that I would absolutely love to see sepot turn into something more attractive I I think that would be so interesting there's so so much opportunity there for improvement um that's why I really tried to push as hard as we could on the the new development going on over there but at any rate especially with the Gateway there and MH I mean there's so much potential for the whole of downtown but it'd be nice if we had some sort of like a welcoming sign on the Gateway Trail that absolutely you know yes a reason for people to come off the Gateway yeah yeah so yeah anything else I don't think we need to take any action with regard to this but we probably need to do some homework ourselves which I will try my best to do that being the case the one thing I guess I'd say is if you get a response back from the city attorney before we meet again could you send it out so that we yeah have that information as we're looking through it ourselves I will do everything under the guidance of open meeting laws to get it to you that I can legally yeah I don't I think he'll have to send it to you yeah probably probably yeah and City attorneys he probably won't be able to get it to us in a month but you know we can ask yeah have some idea anyway yeah all right that being the case um do we have any reports none for me nope nope no reports um the only report I have is what I heard which is that we will have a new um community development director by the end of the month that's as much as I know don't know who it is he I was told yes as much as I know and for was formerly at Forest Lake at Forest Lake yeah yeah but that's all I know I don't even know that much yeah that's that's what I I heard today so that's the only report I have anything else nothing here nothing nothing in that case uh motion to adjourn motion to adjourn seconded from commissioner Ry and commissioner Gad booy and we will adjourn at 721 all in favor e for