[0:00] Welcome to the ONS podcast with your [0:03] host Lana Jacobson. [0:05] >> Good morning or afternoon. It's the ONS [0:07] podcast brought to you by our partners [0:09] at Face toface Academy. For those who [0:11] are tuning in for the first time, ONS [0:13] stands for Office of Neighborhood [0:15] Safety. I'm your host, Lana Jacobson, [0:17] and I'm part of the ONS team. This [0:19] podcast was created for departments like [0:21] ours and community organizations to [0:24] connect you on alternative public safety [0:26] measures, programs, and your local [0:28] growth and healing opportunities. [0:30] ONS audience, today we have our city [0:32] attorney's office, criminal justice unit [0:35] here with us to talk about the gun [0:37] diversion program that falls under the [0:39] ethos programming. Ethos stands for [0:42] engaging community, taking [0:44] responsibility, healing, overcoming [0:46] obstacles, sustainable solutions. The [0:49] gun diversion is a fairly new project [0:52] that these two ladies worked really hard [0:55] to put together. It was specifically [0:57] designed to assist firsttime low-risk [0:59] individuals have a second chance through [1:02] rehabilitation and giving back to the [1:05] community. Please help me welcome Jonica [1:07] Carr. Janica, take 30 seconds and tell [1:10] us about yourself. [1:11] >> Hi, and thank you for having me. Uh, my [1:14] name is Jonica and I am a prosecutor [1:16] with the city attorney's office. My main [1:20] role is currently treatment court [1:23] prosecutor. I also am one of the lead [1:25] attorneys on our gun diversion program. [1:27] I have been with the office for over six [1:31] years now. [1:32] >> Okay. Wow, that's impressive. And for [1:34] those of you obviously you guys can't [1:36] see her, Jonica looks like a baby. So [1:39] congratulations like like you're doing [1:42] good. You're doing good. You're doing [1:43] good either way, right? You're either [1:45] looking really good or really young [1:47] accomplishing a lot. So compliment [1:50] either way. I got some iceberg questions [1:52] for you. Okay. Domestic vacation or [1:55] international? [1:56] >> International. [1:57] >> Okay. Where are you going? [1:58] >> Italy. [1:59] >> Italy. Okay. Okay. Pasta. Are you a [2:01] pasta fan? [2:02] >> I love pasta. I love pasta [2:04] >> and wine [2:05] >> and wine. Girl, yeah, tell me about it. [2:07] And in Italy, I heard you can eat it [2:08] without your stomach hurting. [laughter] [2:11] >> On the plane, are you aisle, middle, or [2:13] window seedater? [2:14] >> Window. [2:15] >> Okay, third question. Collarded greens, [2:19] cabbage, or sauteed spinach? [2:22] >> Sauteed spinach. [2:23] >> And what are you going to compare? What [2:24] are you going to pair it with? [2:25] >> With bacon in it. [2:26] >> Ooh. But what's your other side? [2:29] >> Steak. [2:30] >> Okay, go ahead. Next to Janica, we have [2:33] Tamara Larson. Tamara, take 30 seconds [2:36] and tell us about yourself. [2:38] >> All right. Thank you. Um, my name is [2:40] Tammy Larson. I am one of the [2:42] supervising attorneys in the city [2:44] attorney's office criminal division. I [2:46] coordinate our community justice unit. I [2:49] have been with the office for about 15 [2:51] years. Prior to that, I did domestic and [2:54] sexual violence work for many years [2:56] before going to law school when I was [2:57] 40. So, [2:58] >> thank you. Witness, what area are you [3:00] from? I'm originally from Little Falls, [3:02] Minnesota, which is in the middle of the [3:05] state. [3:06] >> I lived in Winona for quite a while and [3:09] did domestic and sexual violence work [3:11] there, [3:12] >> then back to the cities. [3:14] >> Awesome. Awesome. And Tammy looks good, [3:16] too, you guys. [3:18] >> Not like a baby, I'm hearing. [laughter] [3:23] >> Wait, what? [laughter] [3:26] >> Okay, I got some iceberg questions for [3:28] you, too. Blue jeans or joggers? [3:31] Joggers. [3:32] >> Okay, so here's the scenario. You're at [3:34] a barbecue and you don't know who made [3:36] the potato salad. Are you going to eat [3:38] it? [3:40] >> Oh, [laughter] [3:42] depends on who else is at the barbecue. [3:44] [laughter] [3:46] >> That's how you can tell we made it, [3:47] right? [3:48] >> Yep. [3:48] >> Okay, next question. If I go into your [3:51] car and turn it on, what's going to come [3:53] through your speakers? [3:55] >> I'm really boring, so it's going to be [3:56] NPR. [3:57] >> Oh, I know. I was just listening to CNN [3:59] on the way over here. Yeah. [4:00] >> Yeah. Yeah. [4:01] >> It's a lot. [4:02] >> Yeah. A lot. But you got to keep up, [4:04] right? [4:04] >> That's right. [4:05] >> Okay. Let's jump into these questions. [4:07] So, now in my introduction, I gave the [4:10] audience what the acronyms for ethos [4:12] stands for, but can you tell them more [4:14] about what ethos is? Either one of you [4:16] can go. [4:17] >> So, Ethos is a specific program that we [4:20] have that we developed out of the city [4:22] attorney's office. Uh, it's been going [4:24] over five years now. it's based in [4:26] restorative justice. So, we worked with [4:29] the Dispute Resolution Center, uh, which [4:31] is a community- based organization, and [4:33] they specialize in restorative justice [4:35] and and those kinds of practices. And [4:37] they really helped us develop a program [4:40] that was going to be restorative and [4:43] what that means. So, uh, we created this [4:45] to deal with a lot of our lower level [4:48] offenses with, uh, folks who didn't have [4:52] a long criminal history, but who could [4:54] benefit from restorative work. And, [4:58] >> uh, we work with community members. We [4:59] have community circleke keepers and [5:01] circle members who come together with [5:03] the participant victim if they're also [5:06] interested and they talk through the [5:08] harm that's been done both to the [5:11] community to a victim if there is one [5:13] and to the participant. So they can [5:15] really explore what their conduct has [5:18] gotten them to. But it's also really [5:20] healing. It's a community surrounding [5:22] them saying, "Hey, we've got you. Let's [5:25] talk through why this happened. Let's [5:27] figure out how you're going to heal." [5:28] not only yourself but the community [5:31] >> and they come up on that in that circle [5:34] with an agreement for what the person's [5:36] going to do. [5:37] >> When they have successfully completed [5:39] that then we work with them to we [5:43] dismiss the case and we actually go into [5:45] a stipulated expungement which means the [5:47] prosecutor says we agree to expungement [5:50] of this case and it takes it through the [5:52] system a lot faster. So once it hits [5:55] that circle, we leave it to the [5:57] community [5:58] >> and they work together to come up with [6:00] some answers for what what can happen. [6:02] It's been so successful that we've [6:04] expanded it and we're now doing it with [6:06] more charges and and people with some [6:08] criminal history. Just one kind of [6:10] success of it, we point to things like [6:12] recidivism because that's a nice hard [6:14] statistic. uh comparing similar cases in [6:17] our office from the 6 months prior to [6:19] the program, recidivism was at about [6:22] 35%. With ethos after a year of [6:25] completing the program, those who have [6:27] completed that long or longer, uh it's [6:30] at seven. [6:31] >> Wow. So really successful and more [6:35] importantly [6:37] the participants say to us that it's [6:40] been respectful that they weren't [6:42] treated like a criminal that [6:45] >> they were able to kind of take ownership [6:47] of what happened but also understand how [6:49] much their community was with them in it [6:51] and [6:51] >> it's just been really powerful. So I'm [6:54] excited about how that has led into some [6:56] of the gun diversion work. [6:58] >> Amen. which is a good segue because my [7:00] next question was why a gun diversion [7:02] program? [7:03] >> Well, it's a lot of things. Of course, [7:05] we've seen the success of some of the [7:07] work in ethos. We know that alternative [7:10] forms of prosecution [7:12] >> can be really successful [7:14] >> and uh there's plenty of research around [7:17] diversion and those kinds of things [7:19] around the country. What we know is that [7:22] there are a lot of people who get caught [7:24] up in gun cases who are at a place where [7:28] it just doesn't really make sense to [7:30] send them through the system, get a [7:31] conviction, not really intervene in a [7:34] way that gives them any resources or [7:36] support. Just [7:37] >> here you go. [7:39] >> You're on probation, [7:41] >> get a conviction and you're on a path. [7:43] It's hard to get a job or housing if [7:46] you've got a gun conviction. [7:48] >> Okay. Um, we're talking about a spectrum [7:51] of stuff here. Gun violence is serious, [7:55] obviously, and it's something that I [7:56] think in the city we're trying to [7:58] address in a whole lot of different [7:59] ways. What we're talking about with [8:01] these cases, it's gross misdemeanors. [8:04] Typically, carrying a gun without a [8:06] permit or those kinds of charges. [8:09] >> These are folks who haven't drawn the [8:11] gun yet. It's often young men and they [8:15] carry it for some a variety of reasons. [8:19] It could be that they're just fearful. [8:20] It could be yeah, [8:22] >> you know, their brother had it and they [8:23] got one too, whatever. [8:25] >> And they get pulled over for a traffic [8:26] violation and there's a gun in the [8:28] console and they're life is changed. [8:30] Right. [8:31] >> So that's what this is. And actually the [8:35] St. police department gang and gun unit [8:37] approached us [8:38] >> said, "Hey, [8:40] >> we're seeing this and it just doesn't [8:42] seem right to only have the one option [8:45] that we we go through the court system." [8:48] And so we worked really closely with [8:49] them to come up with something that was [8:52] more than that. That gave people some [8:54] opportunities that helped them get some [8:56] resources, get some support, find some [8:59] ways to engage with their community and [9:01] make some different decisions that can [9:03] lead to something that, you know, they [9:04] don't have that on their record, right? [9:06] >> And and they have a different kind of [9:07] future without all those collateral [9:09] consequences, [9:09] >> positive outcomes. [9:11] >> What drew you to this type of work? [9:13] Jonica, why don't you start? [9:15] >> Yeah, I can go. My work prior to coming [9:18] to the St. Paul city attorney's office [9:20] was mostly in civil rights. Um I worked [9:23] for the city of Minneapolis in the civil [9:26] rights area and then I worked for the [9:28] department of transportation in the [9:29] civil rights area and I felt [9:31] >> I wanted to do a bit more in a space [9:33] that I felt like I could do more in. And [9:37] to me, a city attorney's officer, uh, [9:40] specifically prosecution, kind of the [9:42] gatekeepers, right, to the justice [9:44] system. [9:45] >> And with where my passions lie and with [9:48] what I want to do with the education [9:51] that I have is help individuals get over [9:55] these hurdles in their life and really [9:58] have that power to be able to use the [10:00] tools that I was fortunate enough to get [10:03] >> to help these individuals. And so that's [10:05] what drew me to prosecution. I started [10:08] in the domestic violence unit. I worked [10:11] at a shelter for a bit in law school as [10:13] well. And so I really got that fix and [10:17] that fill in helping victims of domestic [10:21] violence. And I segueed into the [10:23] community justice unit to work on [10:26] another area, a passion area of mine, [10:29] which is alternatives to traditional [10:32] prosecution. So stuff like gun [10:34] diversion, regular diversion, [10:36] restorative justice. [10:38] >> And so that's what really got me [10:41] interested in this work. Um, and I [10:43] wanted to piggyback quickly off [10:44] something Tammy was talking about and as [10:47] it relates to our gun diversion program, [10:49] the why and why it's necessary for our [10:52] office to have something like this is [10:54] that we know traditional prosecution [10:56] sanctions which include conviction, [11:00] possible incarceration [11:02] that could have a whole bunch of [11:04] collateral consequences to these mostly [11:07] young male individuals who are picking [11:09] up these low-level nonviolent mostly gun [11:13] possession charges, right? [11:15] >> And that may lead to continued [11:18] involvement in our justice system, which [11:20] is what this program is aiming to [11:22] intersect. We're aiming to intersect at [11:24] that point so it doesn't get to those [11:26] levels, felony levels or they're [11:29] actually firing the gun, right, where it [11:31] wouldn't be in our office anymore. And [11:33] so this program's success really relies [11:36] on the premise that we can help these [11:38] individuals while they're at this place [11:41] in their life and provide that [11:43] rehabilitative approach to help reduce [11:46] gun possession crimes in our community. [11:48] >> So even though it becomes a charge, [11:53] you guys are working sort of on the side [11:56] of preventative measures. [11:58] >> Yeah. [11:58] >> Because you're preventing a bigger [12:00] problem. But it did I say that right? Is [12:01] it a charge? No. Or [12:03] >> yes. Yeah. And the language can get a [12:05] little term of arty. Um [12:07] >> so essentially what this program does is [12:10] it stays prosecution for a period. Okay. [12:13] >> So essentially it's like the criminal [12:15] case is paused. [12:16] >> Okay. Um, and while it's paused, that's [12:19] when we really get to work, right, with [12:21] these individuals. And they have to do a [12:23] lot of programming and work with the [12:26] community on healing and participate in [12:29] um, very tailored and specific things [12:31] um, to their needs and to what we've [12:33] identified as risk areas in their life. [12:36] If they do those things successfully for [12:38] a certain amount of time, the case is [12:40] dismissed. [12:42] >> So, there is no conviction for this gun [12:44] charge on their record. And so they're [12:46] charged but they're not convicted. [12:49] >> And there's no jail time either. [12:51] >> Okay. [12:51] >> So it's a huge I think opportunity for [12:55] these individuals to get back to their [12:58] community right in the circles that [12:59] they're doing and with who they're doing [13:01] them with and to hopefully know that [13:05] that mistake won't affect their futures. [13:10] >> You guys, this is good stuff. People [13:12] don't know about this. That's why I'm [13:13] really really glad you're on this show. [13:15] So, I know Tammy, you answered a little [13:17] bit of this, but what year specifically [13:21] did you guys launch the gun diversions [13:24] portion of this? And what type of [13:26] planning went into this? [13:28] >> We really started most of the work in [13:30] early 2021. There has been a ton of [13:33] planning and we've started slow. We we [13:36] wanted to make sure that we were setting [13:39] people up for success, that we were [13:42] doing something that was really going to [13:44] matter, that it would make sense to send [13:47] people into this programming because it [13:49] worked. We wanted to make sure we were [13:52] identifying the right people for it so [13:54] that again setting people up for [13:56] success. A big part of what our unit [13:58] does, and I think it's true to the [14:00] values of the office overall, is [14:04] identify a spectrum of responses [14:06] >> to this stuff. [14:08] >> And uh for all crime, you know, for so [14:11] long, the criminal legal system has had [14:15] one answer. [14:17] >> We punish you. We punish with jail time [14:20] or, you know, probation or convictions [14:23] or fines or whatever, but we punish. [14:25] that's how we respond and we're trying [14:28] to do that differently cuz punishment [14:30] there's a place for it but so often it [14:34] doesn't work and so that's the point [14:37] right we're trying to create a safer [14:38] community we're trying to support all [14:40] members of our community there's been [14:42] disparity in this system for far too [14:44] long [14:45] >> and if we're focusing on that if we're [14:48] looking at things through that lens [14:50] we're going to do things in a different [14:51] way we know convictions [14:54] have hurt certain parts of our community [14:57] more than others. And [15:00] >> that's not the point, right? If if we [15:02] truly are servants to our public and we [15:07] are we are public servants, that's what [15:09] this work is, [15:10] >> then we have to serve all of our public [15:12] and we have to work with our community [15:15] instead of kind of in opposition to it [15:18] so often. [15:19] >> And so that was kind of the thinking in [15:22] the early part of this process. We did [15:25] work very closely with the St. Paul [15:26] Police Department. In part, they have [15:29] information we don't. And so, as we're [15:32] identifying people, we're often we're [15:35] looking at paper. We're looking at [15:36] police reports. We're looking at [15:38] information that doesn't have the full [15:40] context of people's lives in it. Of [15:42] course. [15:42] >> Mhm. [15:43] >> The police don't always have that [15:44] either, but they often know a lot more [15:46] than we do about someone's family or [15:48] their circumstances or how they were [15:50] that day or, you know, what was going on [15:52] for them that they saw on the street [15:55] with someone. All of that is important. [15:57] Um, they may also know if if someone is [16:00] currently working with the Office of [16:02] Neighborhood Safety. you know, we've got [16:04] a whole range of services now that [16:06] didn't exist five, six years ago. And [16:08] the police are often involved with a lot [16:10] of that work with you all. So, uh, it's [16:13] important to have context. And so, we [16:16] worked with them. We set up a lot of [16:17] guidelines on how we were going to [16:18] approach this. All of that took time. [16:21] >> We spent some time working with the [16:24] University of Chicago and Yale [16:26] University who were both focused on gun [16:29] violence and and doing work around this. [16:31] And so they helped us out a lot. We had [16:34] experts from around the country. It's [16:37] been quite a process and the dispute [16:40] resolution center has helped a lot [16:41] because ethos is a component of this [16:43] programming. [16:44] >> So yeah, it's it's been a lengthy [16:46] process. We started slow. We tried it [16:48] out with some folks. We have been slowly [16:51] building it since probably mid to late [16:53] 2021 with actual cases going through and [16:56] we've gone through some different [16:57] iterations in the meantime. But, uh, [16:59] we're really happy with with where it is [17:01] now. We continue to work with community [17:03] to kind of help guide what we're doing [17:05] and what's going to be most effective. [17:07] >> I'm going to throw a question here that [17:09] I didn't pre-plan for, but you guys are [17:12] so good. You've almost answered all of [17:13] my questions without me asking them, but [17:16] can you talk more about the [17:17] rehabilitation and healing piece because [17:20] like do you guys have testimonies or [17:23] anything like you can say that you've [17:24] witnessed that's been really really [17:26] awesome? Well, let I'll speak to the the [17:29] rehabilitation piece. And so the work [17:32] and programming that a participant is [17:35] required to complete in this program is [17:39] based in a cognitive behavioral therapy [17:42] approach. And so it's really helping [17:44] these participants identify and get [17:47] insight into their their negative [17:49] behaviors and choices and figuring out [17:52] ways in which to change them or make [17:54] them more positive. Yeah, I like that. [17:57] >> Yeah. And so our goal is to provide [18:00] wraparound services to these [18:02] participants. So that comprehensive and [18:04] personal tailored programming [18:08] to address the needs that they have. So [18:12] what they do is we try to get them right [18:15] away when they enter the system. And so [18:17] that typically in in the criminal [18:20] justice world is at the first appearance [18:22] or arraignment. And so our team has [18:25] already screened this case and [18:28] identified it or not as a good case to [18:31] be a part of this program. We've reached [18:34] out to St. Paul police to see, like [18:36] Tammy said, if they have any other [18:38] information they wanted to provide and [18:40] what their thoughts are in putting these [18:42] individuals in the program. And if we [18:44] approve, we extend it to them at their [18:47] first appearance um or no later than [18:50] than their second appearance. If they [18:52] accept, then what happens is after [18:55] speaking to Tanya, who is our wonderful [18:57] parallegal who wasn't able to make it [18:59] today, they take a a risk and needs [19:02] assessment with Justice Point, who is a [19:04] partner to us in this work. They're our [19:06] pre-trial partner. And so that [19:09] assessment will identify those specific [19:11] needs, [19:12] >> whether it's a chemical health [19:13] assessment and abstaining from maybe the [19:16] drinking or whatever it may be. And then [19:20] they sit in our ethos restorative [19:22] justice circles [19:24] and come up with those agreements to [19:26] address the harm that they did to the [19:28] community. They speak to community [19:29] members. They talk about healing and [19:31] trauma and how might that might have [19:33] played a role in this gun charge. [19:36] >> And we do try to tailor circles to them [19:39] as well. And that's newer to our [19:42] program. And so as we've learned and as [19:45] we've evolved, we're right kind of [19:48] changing the way we do things too. And [19:50] so we're having more focused circles for [19:52] participants. [19:53] >> And so we really have that [19:55] individualized piece and then we have [19:57] that community piece with the circles. [19:59] And so far what we've heard and maybe [20:02] Tanya can or sorry Tammy Tanya could [20:04] speak to this piece more. She really has [20:07] that one-on-one connection to the [20:09] participants. We have heard great [20:12] success stories from them, right? Yeah. [20:15] It's it's pretty amazing. Uh part of [20:17] circle is often a reflection letter or [20:21] people have done artwork or poetry or [20:24] something that's meaningful to them. [20:26] >> And the reflections [20:29] are just so powerful. They again they [20:32] talk about you know people have said [20:34] things like I feel like I wasn't treated [20:36] like a thug [20:38] >> or I was surprised by how much my [20:41] community cared. They you know were [20:43] respectful. It was a positive [20:46] experience. They got me thinking. You [20:48] know a lot of people [20:50] >> don't even know what's available in [20:52] their community. And we have a lot in [20:54] St. Paul that can really help people out [20:57] and you know so thinking about things in [20:59] a new way or how they affected their [21:01] family or uh friends or or you know that [21:05] kind of thing. We've had people talk [21:06] about how it affected their family and [21:09] they've written an apology letter to you [21:10] know one wrote an apology letter to [21:12] their mother. like there's just uh so [21:16] many ways to to heal and to [21:19] >> rebuild and to think differently and and [21:23] this does put that opportunity in front [21:25] of people. [21:26] >> It's up to them to decide whether [21:28] they're going to, you know, grasp that. [21:30] But so far, so many of them really have. [21:33] And I think [21:35] >> you get charged with a crime like this [21:37] and you have a whole lot of expectations [21:39] about what it's going to look like. And [21:41] many people express surprise cuz it [21:44] doesn't look like that. It's community [21:46] surrounding them with support and [21:48] accountability. But support [21:50] >> I feel like too a lot of people when [21:53] something like this happens to an [21:54] individual, people just see a criminal. [21:56] I feel like this sort of work is [21:59] allowing people to really be seen for [22:01] who they are and get to the core root of [22:04] like what led to that decision. And I [22:07] think a lot of people don't understand [22:08] that wraparound services and just [22:11] conversations and listening sessions and [22:13] different things like that is what [22:15] allows people to make different [22:18] decisions and be heard and receive the [22:21] things that they need to receive so that [22:23] they don't have to do things that they [22:25] did before. You know what I mean? And so [22:28] it's a huge huge ordeal that I think is [22:31] not talked about enough. I think here in [22:33] St. Paul, we do a really good job [22:35] implementing wraparound services and [22:38] community outreach and conversations and [22:40] different things like that, but it's not [22:42] everywhere. We're lucky to have this. [22:45] Like, we're really, really lucky to have [22:47] this. What are the benefits to having [22:50] this as a part of the city attorney's [22:52] office? Because in a lot of different [22:55] cities around the country, they have [22:57] different organizations and nonprofits [22:59] that kind of do the same work, but we [23:01] have it in our city attorney's office, [23:03] and that's unique. [23:05] >> So, what are the benefits do you think [23:07] having this in our city attorney's [23:09] office? [23:10] >> Prosecutors have a ton of power, [23:12] >> and so that is certainly part of it. We [23:15] are a big part of the criminal legal [23:17] system in our community and it's one of [23:21] the reasons I think we both do this work [23:24] because that's also where you can make [23:26] change and and affect people's lives in [23:28] a really positive way. Um the reality is [23:32] people get charged with these crimes all [23:34] the time. [23:35] >> Yeah. [23:35] >> And so it's going to hit the system. [23:37] >> Yeah. And having a program like this [23:40] within the city attorney's office means [23:43] it's connected to what's happening in [23:45] court. We have a role to play. The [23:48] consequences of a misdemeanor or gross [23:51] misdemeanor conviction are huge. I don't [23:54] think people always kind of fully [23:56] understand [23:58] >> what role that can play. We think [23:59] felonies, you know, you're convicted of [24:01] murder, of course, that's going to be a [24:02] thing and it's important, of course, but [24:05] >> you can be convicted of a misdemeanor [24:07] theft and it affects the rest of your [24:09] life [24:10] >> and throw in a gun charge or something [24:12] and and that's a big deal. So, this kind [24:15] of gives us the opportunity within our [24:17] office to make the criminal legal system [24:20] a little bit [24:22] >> kind of better place for the people in [24:25] our community. [24:26] >> And that's huge. It also the city [24:28] attorney's office has uh ONS is is [24:31] within that office. We've got civil [24:33] attorneys who represent our entire city. [24:36] Uh you know the police department, fire, [24:39] parks, libraries, all of that are [24:41] connected to the city attorney's office. [24:43] Uh our litigation team is is part of it. [24:46] So they're in in the mix and it's one of [24:48] the reasons our program is connected to [24:51] parks. A lot of our circles are [24:52] happening there. Uh, and a lot of our [24:54] work with gun diversion classes and [24:56] things are happening in park and recck [24:58] centers. We've got circles happening in [25:00] libraries. We've got, you know, it's the [25:02] city is doing this work and and you know [25:05] that that like that is the thing about [25:08] what we're doing in St. Paul. [25:10] >> We are hands-on. [25:11] >> Yep. Exactly. And we care about our [25:13] community. [25:14] >> Yeah. Go ahead, Jonathan. And to your [25:16] point of not a lot of offices, [25:19] particularly attorneys office offices do [25:21] this work, that's very true. We did take [25:25] a lot of notes from the city of [25:27] Minneapolis who had their gun diversion [25:30] program a couple years before we did. [25:32] >> Um, however, nationally, [25:35] >> we're a very small subset of offices [25:39] that have something like a gun diversion [25:42] program. And I think that has drawn [25:45] national attention to our program um [25:48] where we are working with universities [25:52] like the University of Chicago and Yale. [25:55] They want to come and see what we're [25:56] doing and model that so that they can [26:00] speak to it more nationally hoping that [26:04] more offices will pick up on what we're [26:06] doing. [26:07] >> I love it. I absolutely love it. What [26:10] are your goals in doing this work for [26:12] the city of St. Paul? Jonica, you want [26:14] to start? [26:14] >> Yeah, obviously to get guns off of the [26:17] street and to educate individuals on how [26:20] to carry legally. And that is a piece of [26:24] this program, too, that I don't think we [26:26] touched on. [26:27] >> There is that education piece as well in [26:30] all of this work they're doing with our [26:32] partners on how you can legally carry a [26:34] a firearm. But I think bigger than that [26:37] too is really getting to the root of the [26:42] problem that you kind of touched on [26:44] earlier, Lana. Getting to the root of [26:46] the problem of what led them to this [26:49] >> charge and helping them in that space so [26:53] that we don't see them again. And so [26:56] that's a huge goal for me in this work [26:58] is getting them there [27:01] >> and hoping that they don't come back [27:04] because of all of the [27:06] programs and support that we've thrown [27:08] at them throughout the time they're with [27:10] us. [27:11] >> Tammy, what are your goals in doing this [27:13] work for St. Paul? [27:14] >> It is, of course, public safety is huge. [27:17] That is one of our uh primary reasons [27:20] for existing is to try and create public [27:22] safety and getting guns off the streets. [27:24] Uh helping people uh who are going to [27:26] have a gun legally to do that [27:28] responsibly is is part of it. But it's [27:31] also uh our community just there are so [27:35] many people struggling with so many [27:37] different things [27:38] >> and [27:40] as a system we so often have responded [27:43] some of it because of just the volume of [27:45] it all with kind of a cookie cutter. [27:48] >> Y [27:48] >> you know we we see the thing well how [27:50] many priors do you have and well that [27:52] means you get 30 days in jail or [27:54] whatever and we see thousands of cases a [27:57] year. It's not easy to individualize [28:00] that, but that's the goal a little bit. [28:03] We want to create public safety, [28:07] not only by intervening in a different [28:09] way in some of these cases and [28:10] responding differently, but also [28:14] creating some trust and earning trust [28:17] from our community, becoming a [28:19] legitimate resource for people that [28:23] everyone in our community can trust. [28:25] that if you come into our court system, [28:28] you're going to be treated fairly. [28:29] You're going to be treated with, you [28:32] know, justice is kind of like this big [28:34] word, but justice needs to mean [28:37] something to everybody who comes through [28:40] our doors. And that's my big kind of [28:43] goal in the sky is like, let's create [28:45] that. Let's be [28:48] >> uh a resource for people that creates [28:50] safety, that listens to our community, [28:53] that has earned your trust and that uh [28:58] is is something that people can believe [29:00] in as part of our democracy. [29:02] >> Amen. You guys, like I've worked in [29:05] public safety administration for a lot [29:07] of years. I won't tell cuz I don't want [29:09] to age myself, but I lost track of how [29:12] many people that I've witnessed to be [29:17] really, really good people and to just [29:19] make that one mistake or, you know what [29:22] I mean, with having a gun on them and [29:25] it's either not registered or they've [29:29] been drinking or just ju just something [29:31] like that and they're like it's like [29:33] their first offense and it's just like [29:36] destroyed their lives. So, this means [29:39] this means a lot to me, especially for [29:42] our young men [29:43] >> because it's it seems like it's more [29:45] often them. [29:48] >> The city of St. Paul is working to [29:50] rehabilitate, intervene, and provide [29:52] safer neighborhoods. If you'd like to [29:54] learn more about the city attorney's [29:56] office ethos programs, just go to [29:58] stpaul.gov, gov. Click on government. [30:01] Choose the city attorney office. Under [30:04] departments, scroll down and click [30:06] criminal division. Choose ethos. Thank [30:09] you guys so much for coming. [30:11] >> Thank you. [30:12] >> If you'd like to be more involved in [30:13] community government, assisting in [30:16] advisory and recommendations on policies [30:18] and proposed alternative public safety [30:20] projects. The Neighborhood Safety [30:22] Community Council is now accepting [30:24] applications through August. Please [30:26] visit us at stpaul.gov. GV forwards.