Do we believe this one says 6:30? My computer says 6:30. We're going to start the meeting. >> He's ready. >> Except we have to wait for Cameron to sit. There we go. Okay. I will call the planning commission meeting of North St. Paul together. Um September 4th. Is it time to begin? Could we have a roll call, please? >> Yes. Commissioner Ren, >> here. >> Commissioner Goodboy >> here. >> Commissioner Weise >> here. >> Commissioner Muk >> here. >> Oh, Stephanie >> here. >> I got to work on that. I apologize. And Commissioner Ble, >> thank you. and Commissioner Alvarez is absent for the record. >> Excellent. Thank you. Um, we have an agenda in front of us for this. Um, I would entertain a motion to adopt the agenda. >> I'll make a motion. >> Motion from Commissioner Rathy. Uh, is there a second? >> I'll second. >> Second from Commissioner Weise. All in favor say I. I. I. >> Opposed? None. Approval of minutes from the 7th of August meeting. I had them on my computer, but I don't anymore. They're floating around here. Um, I would uh entertain a motion for approval of meeting minutes. >> I'll make a motion. >> Motion from Commissioner Rothy. Second. >> I'll second. >> Second from Commissioner Gabboy. Uh any discussion or revision or anything? If not, all in favor say I. >> I. >> I. >> All opposed? None. Meeting is open to the public. I don't know if there's any public speaking not associated with the agenda. [Laughter] So, we will pass right by item five. Zoom. We're going fast. It's time for public hearings officially. Um item A on the public hearings is C elementary schools uh conditional use permit amendment and site plan. Um staff report. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Members of the commission, as you introduced, this is a public hearing to consider a conditional use permit amendment request and site plan approval for Cowan Elementary School. The site aerial photo is up on the map and I will be clicking through a variety of maps this evening because there's a lot to show you. This is again site of the school. The areas that are proposed for major changes with this project include expansion of the parking lot, north parking lot, office south. Additional spaces here with a change of driveways. There are now two. There will be one in this plan. Addition of a bus uh staging parking area here coming in off of Margaret. the addi the primary addition to the school is this area here and I'll we get some better plans show that there uh that part of the plan later and a smaller addition here and then some other improvements inside the building including some security functions and changing bathrooms and uh some other wall movements changes those kind of things. The uh proposal, if approved, the school district's plan is to have it out for bid later this year, start construction next spring and going through in phases through August of 2028. Little background, little history that I found in the files. Back on May 4th of 2021, the council adopted a resolution approving a conditional use permit amendment for an addition out on the front of the school which was only 1750 square ft and it included the nurse's office, principal's office, reception area, and a conference room. So that was the last action before the city at that time. All right, let's go to a different map. Go to the zoning map. This is the uh zoning map of the area. >> Hello Jason. >> Hello. >> Uh and related to that is the comprehensive plan. That's first part of this. The comprehensive plan and the zoning map both show this planned and zoned uh the entire property R1 single family residential or in low density residential in the comp plan which not surprisingly is intended for single family uses duplexes and town homes left after the result of older infill housing. The comprehensive plan, the 2040 plan that we're currently using, does not have a separate future land use designation for schools or institutional uses, uh, which could also be churches or even public facilities. And so, typically they have been included in the R1 or low density designation as is this school and I think most all the other schools in North St. Paul are. As a sidebar, that's something we may want to think about when we do the 2050 comp plan is do we want to add an institutional land use >> designation for schools, public facilities, uh cemeteries, maybe not cemeteries. Uh something to ponder. Some cities do that, some don't. But to me, it's more a more accurate reflection of what's really on the ground and the way the land is going to be used. Not relevant for tonight because under the 2040 plan, uh again, all the the other schools are in the single family designation and this one as well. Uh again the zoning is R1 single family and in that zoning district schools are possible and use subject to approval of a conditional use permit and thus the application. The code has 10 findings for the city to make to approve a conditional use permit or a conditional use permit amendment as is this case. And in summary, the I'm not going to read all 10 findings, but this project with the addition uh for the school and the changes to the site plan uh do meet all those criteria. Uh it's an existing school and they're amending the plan and frankly making it hopefully a lot better. The lot requirements in the R1 district again don't really apply since it's a 11 acre site used for a school and not a single family home. So it meets the plans meet all the setback requirements for that. The one thing I want to point out and it shows pretty well here is the school and school district site of the school and this I think shows it too even better is currently four separate properties. There's one, two, big one, and there's three, and then this one. And it's staff's recommendation that as part of this process, the school district combine all those into one property for tax ID purposes, so we don't have random property lines running through the middle of a parking lot here or the middle of a parking lot here, that kind of thing. And that's in that's one of the conditions I'm proposing. Uh as far as site and design review, we have standards in the code for that as well. There are nine points that the plans are meant to meet or standards they are propo they need to meet. And again in very quick summary the proposed plans do meet those. We'll go into those now a little more detail. So this is the this shows turning movements which was a concern of Ramsey County and how this shows how vehicles can get in and out and especially important the buses have room here to sneak their way through. Uh I'm no engineer but this appears to me to meet their standards and well our engineer is satisfied with that so I'm not concerned about it. The next image. >> So, can I ask a question about that image that you were just showing? >> The the turning movement. >> Yeah, >> certainly. This one? >> Yeah. So, the parking lot that's behind the school, does that look like there's uh >> you know, basically three rows, two halves on each end and two full rows in the center with one >> face. There's a row here, double row, double row, and then a single row. And then this acts as a drive aisle to go all the way around. >> That's where they do all the child pickup in the afternoon. >> The parent pickup. Yeah. >> And so the intent is to get more of the vehicles off of South and off of Margaret and their staging. >> Yes. >> Going along with that idea, was there any idea about possibly putting in a turn lane uh for vehicles come, you know, a right turn lane there? Uh, I know that would push the parking lot back a little bit, but that would give vehicles an extra area to queue that they'd be off the street. >> You know, when Ken is done with his propos with his presentation, then we can ask. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> And we did send this to Ramsey County for their comments because South Avenue is a county road, county road B and the rest of the county. >> Uh, they were concerned about vehicle movements and staging. They did not say that they thought a turn lane was necessary in this case, but the school district uh team can talk about that as well. Uh moving on to excuse me, the site. This is the site plan. I'll try to stay on this most of the night. Try to zoom in a little bit. All right. So, this shows again the change to the parking lot on the north. This driveway will have now be widened and have two exit lanes and one ingress lane. The other driveway that's in place now goes away. This is expanded parking lot here again in the gray. The new bus staging area which can also be used for for parking for vehicles that for concerts and events at nights when the buses aren't there. Uh and there's some numbers included in the table on page 10 of the packet which is page four of this report about the number of parking spaces. Uh this shows the primary addition I would call it here and then the smaller addition that's proposed out here. The uh so back to the parking by the way the city code is written the school should have at least 115 parking stalls and they are showing a 118 with this lot that's already existing to the south down here. The expanded parking lot here and there's an additional 54 shown here for what I call overflow or night night events. So definitely a improvement on their off- streetet parking and my experience has been they we don't want no city wants I don't think a school district wants to build such a big parking lot for the three events a year when grandma and grandma come and there's the choir concert or whatever. It's just that's too much parking for those few events a year. So, this is an improvement, but yeah, there there still will be times that there's street parking, but I'm confident it'll be a lot better than what's currently there. So, that's parking. Uh, landscaping. We'll touch on that. And then we've got a find that sheet. Oh, did I go too far? Come on. There we go. Landscape plan. Uh I summarized in the in the uh report they are the plans would remove 34 existing trees. And they are proposing to plant 36 trees and two shrubs throughout the site. So replacing a little more than what would be removed. And of course some of those trees are on the parking lot and so they have to be taken out to expand the parking lot. The only comment I had is one of the proposed species is a blue diamond spruce which is similar to a Colorado blue spruce and uh my experience has been that black hill spruce do better than Colorado here. So I'm recommending that be changed. And then the city engineer pointed out one that's uh one proposed tree in the northwest corner of South Avenue uh of the South Avenue parking lot which I think could be up in here uh would be over the storm sewer and near a city storm sanitary sewer line. So that will have to be moved. But again, these are changes that they can make in the final design and then they'll all be subject to staff review and approval. Uh screening is another element that we look at as part of the code and what that requires is any rooftop mechanical units uh on the building or the addition should not be visible from adjacent streets or public rights away. I couldn't tell from the drawings if there are any new ones that would be visible and I'm just recommending a condition that they provide plans documenting that they're not there or they're not visible from the streets. I don't think that should be a problem. Uh, one big change, another important change I should say is the plans are adding an infiltration or filtration based in here for storm water purposes. And that will clearly be a big improvement for storm water and the natural features and the final design of that will be subject to the watershed districts and the city engineers approval. watershed district has completed their initial review. They've have some comments about the plans that they have provided to the applicant. Again, my reading of them and nothing look too scary or frightening that they should be able to make whatever changes need to be made. As part of our review, we look at outdoor lighting. Uh they are proposing some light fixtures in the parking lot. Uh there is a phototric plan which is very hard to read at this level and I'm not going to put it on the screen. Uh but generally it meets the standard of being less than 0.4 uh foot candles at the property lines as required by code. The thing I could not pick up from the plans is the type of light fixtures on the poles and the height of the poles. And so I'm suggesting or recommending that that uh information be submitted to staff for final approval through the review process. There is fencing on the site. Now I'm going to go back plan sheet that some of that will be changed and moved in part because of this this ponding area here. The fence now runs something like this line here. And it's going to be shifted around here to not cut through the ponding area. And that's makes sense. You want to keep the balls and the kids out of the filtration basin. And staff's recommending that the chain link fencing be black or green vinyl coated. And then the engineer is recommending a six foot 16 foot wide access gate in the in the fencing. They were proposing 10 feet I believe. And that will allow for maintenance equipment to get into this ponding area for cleaning out or doing whatever work needs to be done. And that's one of the conditions that the engineer is recommending. Uh the sidewalk, there are sidewalks along South and Margaret and those are all staying. They'll of course be some changes internally with new sidewalks. The parking area does show a sidewalk going all the way out to south in this location and then a variety of sidewalks to get into and entrances. There was or is an entrance here and a sidewalk them going down the south and that gets removed and comes out to this new sidewalk here along the bus park working facility architectural materials. Patrick's favorite. Let's get to those. Uh here we go. The I'm not going to go through all the plans, but the elevations are the most important in this. I'm gonna try to zoom in. The colors will pop. There we >> One of those is actually your chiller as you were describing on the HVAC coverage, which is on this list. >> What about it? >> You said one of them is for the HVAC. >> Yep. >> It's already on this list. >> Oh, this shows the the the addition. Well, again, the cafeteria edition on the front. This is the east side. And the view of the large addition out to the south and west corner. Uh, best I can tell, the colors and materials are compatible with the existing building. Uh, I didn't find a detail, and maybe I missed it on the exact colors or the exact block type or material type. And, uh, they the summary the overall design is consistent with our architectural standards and requirements in the code and I don't foresee a problem with that. I think I have a condition in the proposed resolutions that again detail about that and then the chiller that's there's the chiller enclosure here which again is consistent with the other materials. So, with all that said, uh staff is recommending approval of the condition use permit amendment for Cowan Elementary School at 2131 Margaret Street North and the site plan approval uh for the same project. Uh and with your uh in your packet, there's a draft resolution that will be included for the council for the condition use permit amendment and there's a draft resolution for the site plan approval. The those are on pages 43 and 46. No. Yeah. in the packet after all the plans. The conditional use permit approval amendment we're recommending subject to seven conditions that are in the resolution. The site plan approval has a total, if I count it correctly, uh 31 conditions of approval. Most of those are revising plans for staff approval, engineer approval, watershed district approval, getting all the necessary permits that are needed before they start construction. One thing we're also proposing is that they have a pre-construction conference with city staff, project engineers, city engineer, invite the county, get everybody in the room at one time to talk through the project before they break ground. And so that's included in that. So staff's recommendation is to uh uh we're recommending approval of both. And so with that, I can turn it over to commission for questions. As you know, there are representatives of the school district here to answer your questions that I may not know the answers to. >> Did your condition about the pre-construction meeting include attendee recommendations or anything like you just mentioned verbally? >> Sure. Hope >> or did you not put that information? >> Let me let me look. That would be on page 49. [Music] Under general conditions, uh the applicant or contractor shall hold a pre-construction meeting with before starting any construction or grading activity. The applicant or owner shall invite representatives from the city, the watershed district, and private utility companies as noted on the project plans. >> Okay. I wanted to make sure watershed district was in that mix. >> Yep. And what I found, we invite other agencies or other groups. If they attend, great. They can't make it. Well, >> yeah, >> we do the best we can. >> Kind of the required and the optional, >> correct? >> Um, joining the properties was going to be one of my questions. You already answered that. >> Um, visitor parking. I'm curious about well first of all there's the elimination of the one drive from the south a and I'm assuming that it's a traffic flow solution as well as maybe a security component. I'm just kind of curious about the rationale for making that change. I'm I'm going to defer to the applicants engineer, but I would agree that's for traffic flow. That seems to so you don't have So you don't have Yeah, I I would think one less point of potential conflict. >> Yeah. Um, and I was curious about visitor parking, where visitor parking is going to be, and because it relates to the intent to do some security improvements and things like that. If there's somebody from the applicant team that could come up and speak, that would be that would be much appreciated. Can you give your name? >> Absolutely. Um, I'm Caitlyn Chambers. I'm an architect uh with Volt Architects and Engineers. Uh to the previous question about the traffic flow off of South. So right now it's a oneway in one way out which only allows 10 to 15 cars to stack on site. By eliminating one of those drives, it allows much longer queue length to get more cars off of South A. Um and then the last question about visitor parking. The south lot that is currently existing on the south side of the building off of Margaret is um signed for visitor and ADA parking today. as that's closer to the main entry of the building um where students would be dropped off in the parent drop off loop that is uh just before and after school kind of entry point but the main entry off of Margaret is where visitors would enter the building >> so if the if buses weren't present they might park in that other lot >> I or not >> the bus loop bus lot will be signed for buses only during the school day so visitors would not be able to park during that bus lot Yeah. Okay. >> What evenings >> event? Yes. Evenings, weekends, anytime school is not in session, that would be overflow parking. >> Okay. Now, as far as the right turn lane into that parking lot, I work for MDOT, and one of the things that I do regularly is review development reviews. Uh we require that a right turn lane be available whenever you have a 100 vehicle per day of movement or more. And I would certainly expect that that drop off lot's going to get at least 100 movements a day because that's only 50 per morning and 50 per evening. So, uh, now of course it's county and so you guys don't have to follow our requirements, but typically the county does and Mio at least in most cases. So, you know, has that something that you folks have looked at because that is a the ability to get a tail of vehicles off the the main road. >> Yes. I don't know, Greg, are you able to speak to that because I know you've had conversations. >> Hi, I'm Greg Blum. I'm with Larson Engineering. was a civil engineer for the project. And yes, we did talk to the WA uh Ramsey County about that because that was our first idea to have the right turn lane and keep cars out the traffic and queue people back that way. And they I'm not sure the requirements or the criteria that they use, but they said that they wouldn't allow the right turn lane. >> Okay. >> Did not want us to do that. >> So that's why we decided to get rid of the one entrance and okay, >> make basically put the queuing inside the lot. >> Like I say, that's unusual. But of course the county can set their own standards. They don't have to follow the mind dot. So but like I said that's why I noticed that. So >> so quick question as you think about that parking lot. How many cars are you take are able to run through that circle um that are moving off the road. >> It's on a sheet and I forget the number off top of my head. >> Is it on the bottom on the screen? >> Yeah. Maybe my eyes weren't picking it up. >> I Yeah, >> it's somewhere on there. >> See 200. >> Existing queue queuing says >> 367 ft. Tildy 15 cars. Proposed queuing says 655 ft. Tilda 26 >> 26 stars. >> So an increase of 70%. Something like that. >> Right. Um I'm going to ask a silly question, but am I misreading the finished floor elevations that look like they're 6' 4 in apart for the floor? >> That is not correct. >> That's a typo. Yeah, >> it it shows up a lot of places on every plan, I think. >> So, they only need a >> they only need Yeah. little headroom. >> So, just curious what would be correct. >> Do you know >> um the existing building has it's kind of a a barbell basement. So, the main level is at we'll call it 100 and then the lower levels are um slightly different than each other. I think the existing Florida floor is under 12 and our the addition will be 13'4 floor to floor. So there will be an interior ramp and stair system to transition on that level. >> I saw the ramp. So that's why I was wondering. >> And then a comment about the brick. Just to clarify what Ken said, um the main entry edition that was done in 2021, it's the same materials that will be used on the Okay. the new edition for >> Ken, I've got two questions for you. Uh one is uh I appreciate your point about the tree. Did you check with the city arborist uh about other tree possibilities? >> I did not. >> Okay. Do we still do have a city arborist? Right. >> We all forest forest. Yeah. Okay. And the other question I had was uh as I under I'm going off of memory and at my age memory isn't always that key uh or keen I should say but I don't remember that the sidewalks in front of the school are ADA compliant. So, is that something that we can make the school district bring up to standard or is that something that's on the city? Specifically, what I'm thinking about is I don't believe that there are ramps with the studs on them at uh where the uh where people would cross uh the street. >> Like I say, I could be wrong on that, but I drive by there fairly regularly and I've not noticed it. >> No, I think you're right. Yeah. >> Maybe has the engineer talk about that. >> Yeah, >> I think some of those uh sidewalks at certain locations do have those, but I can't attest to saying that all of them do. >> I'm thinking specifically about the intersection merit uh uh Margaret and South. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think the one on the school side in that corner does have one. Um the crossing of the drive for this for the new park or the existing parking lot on the north is flush. So there isn't a need for one there. >> Um and then as you go south to the other areas, there are ADA ramps. Okay. >> For this near the south lot, too. >> I just just wanted to make sure that it's that they're covered. So >> thank you. So there's there's a ramp detail on one of the drawings C500, but it does not have truncated domes, but I would assume that would be like at the building or something like that. But at at the location where the public walk crosses the entrance drives, I'm wondering if they'll do the tactical there. Yeah, that I mean that I think that's what's required, right? Accessibility wise, I think there's supposed to be where it's a public drive. >> I'm thinking about California. Sorry, California, you'd have them all over the place. Um, but in in Minnesota, I think it's only where there's a public walk. >> So, for example, here where I'm circling, where this sidewalk crosses this driveway or down here at this driveway. >> I can't see where you're >> I see where you're circling. >> Right. >> Yes. those drives, >> right? Yeah. >> Where the public walk crosses. >> Yeah. >> Just for the same reason you have at a public walk at an intersection, right? >> Same concept. >> And yeah, I think down here you said that this will be flush, so there won't be ramps there. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Well, we'll uh I I wrote a note to make sure that we check that. >> Thanks. I have two kids at Cowan and this is amazing. This is fixing a lot of issues that exist currently. So, I'm really happy to see this. Um, it's it's going to be great. So, thank you guys for all your work on this for the for the school. Um, the only question I had is just really curiosity. how how are you going to handle the what was the exterior wall on the rear side of the building um now that it's going to be an interior wall. >> So down here >> Mhm. >> Um yes. So there are floor plans in in the your packet that you all have too. Um like you said turns into an interior wall. I believe for the most part it'll get furred out and treated like an interior wall. So there will be a gypsum wall kind of over the brick. Um in some locations some of the existing brick may um be maintained infilling some of those windows otherwise keeping the windows to allow some of the daylight on the new addition come through to the existing hallway. So trying to be really mindful and keeping some of those existing openings and kind of the head height and daylight that um was there. But for the most part it turns into circulation and then a centralized media center. So um not a ton of inbound classrooms because of the work. We shifted around some of the programming in the building to allow um the general ed classrooms and all the addition classrooms to have exterior daylight opportunities. >> Excellent. Thank you. Kaylin, does this show what I put up? >> Does Yeah. So, on the bottom of >> this plan, I'm gonna use my hands. Um, this is the existing wall. So right here seems like it would even it would be feasible to even keep some of that brick in some places. >> It's not our purview, but as architects, we, you know, have to talk to you about it. >> You can't ignore these things. You know, [Music] >> my son's kindergarten teacher was on, I think he said, some sort of design assistance board that um and he just said it was such a great opportunity and really appreciated having you guys listen to him. So, I just wanted to communicate that too that he thought it was a really good process. >> It it would it looks as though you've done a very comprehensive analysis and design. I mean, it's this is not just a throw a building addition on kind of a project. Quite obvious. Mr. Chair, >> yes, you may want to call or see if public next step because I think we're done with comments. Um, I will open the public hearing at 7:05. And if there's anyone from the public wanting to speak, I see there's a person in the back there who really we really want you to say something. >> Okay. >> So, I don't think I don't think we have any public here to speak. So, we'll close the public hearing at 7:06. >> Thank you. >> 30 seconds. >> Yeah. This a whole 30 seconds. 60 seconds maybe. I think it's only 7:0533 right now. So, >> yeah. Is there are there any other comments, questions? >> He rounded up. >> I rounded up. Yes. So, just for clarity on page 16 of your packet, page 10 of the report is the uh I guess what I call a motion for commission's consideration. The second paragraph, >> I need to find page 16. 16 of 109 lower right. >> I don't I'm not in the right place. I'm looking at the packet the uh the >> Can I ask can I ask a question while you're thinking? >> You absolutely please ask a question. >> So obviously we've talked a little bit about the drive the parking and people coming in and out. I go is is there is there any issues that you guys are having with you know people picking up the kids and in the the volume of cars coming in and out? Um, I guess that's just a question and >> early there is. >> I mean, cuz I mean going to 26 cars obviously isn't a big difference. >> As somebody who lives near the school, it's an issue. >> Got it. >> Yeah. I avoid South Yeah. >> at school pickup time. >> I do, too. >> Yeah. >> Oh, wait. I can't go that way. >> So, is is I I guess going to adding 26 cars in the parking lot, is that going to is that going to create a big difference? Yeah, I think it will. >> Okay. >> And and hopefully with the redesign with the one driveway instead of two, the flow will be better so you don't have people trying to do this. >> And I think having the one opening is also safer for the students that are walking because there aren't two areas where they could potentially run into be run into a car. So, >> so your um your draft motion is where? I can't find it. I must be looking in the wrong place. >> I'm not seeing it on page >> Well, it's right before the attachments, page 10 of the report. It's >> page 16 of the PDF. >> Well, would you like me to read it for you? >> Sure. I guess so because I'm looking at page 10 and >> oh >> and I and page 16 is one of the attachments so I'm not sure >> he printed it. I don't know if you've got it >> what I'm Yeah. I'm looking at a different page. It's the same content I think where the staff findings and recommendation is. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Yeah. I see. >> It's it's really the second paragraph. >> Oh, okay. Staff recommends planning commission to recommend to to city council approval of the proposed conditional use permit amendment and the site plan for expansion remodeling of C elementary school located at [Music] >> subject to the conditions of approval listed in each of the draft resolutions which were all spoken of. >> Yes. >> In your presentation. >> Well, most of them. >> Yeah. I hit the highlights and it I would ask this of the commission. Is there any are there any conditions that you think we did not address that should be addressed? I didn't come up with any myself. >> In that case, I would entertain a motion to proceed as recommended by staff. >> I'll make a motion. Motion from Commissioner Rothy. Is there a second? >> I'll second. >> Second from Commissioner Weise. >> Any further discussion? >> All in favor say I. >> I. >> I. >> In opposed? >> None. >> We are done with that. >> We're scheduling this for the September 16th city council meeting. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> You don't have to leave. There's exciting stuff after. >> If if any of you are North St. Paul residents, please stay and say something. >> Well, they're all leaving now. >> Thank you for your assist. >> We're not popular. >> I didn't know you were going to get rid of all of our guests so quickly. >> Yeah. >> You cover the important stuff first. Obviously, >> clearly. >> That's quite clear. >> I am. Ken, I'd like to go on the record that I really do not like them not having a right turn lane there. So, you know, I understand what they're saying. >> It's interesting that they approached the county about it and the county said, "No, please." >> Yeah. Agreed. >> And that's that's really what makes me wonder whether their county person looked at that seriously or not. But >> I will say that Richardson doesn't have a turn lane into their parking lot. They do not. my my gut feel is that >> um and the just the so my son goes um to Harambe and Roseville and they don't have a turn lane into their parking lot. So I'm curious if it's a school thing. >> Um I don't know because I don't know many elementary schools that have turn lanes. >> No parking lot and that's true. It's not terribly common, but like I say, it is part of we get our stuff from IT, the Institute of Traffic Engineers, and they say that if you've got a hundred people turning right into a driveway of any kind, you should have a right turn lane for safety reasons. So, you know, like I said, that's that's the only reason I raise that and that I have a concern >> because I know what it gets like over there when there is pickup and especially the pickup in the afternoon when people are trying to sort through and kids are coming out at various times and you know, it's more than chaotic than it is for drop off. >> So, anyway, >> good reason not to go there at that time of day. >> Exactly. Yes. >> I have no choice. You have no >> part of the party. >> Fortunately, I can go down Fourth Street and turn at the uh by the empty parking lot there. >> Okay, let's go on to item uh what would it be? 6B, the zoning ordinance text amendments. Um Ken, can you do your presentation for that? >> Be happy to. Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, this is a continuation of our meeting and our one of our topics from our last meeting on August 7th about amending the zoning code uh and clarifying the types of improvements the city will not consider to be encroachments in yard setback requirements and also adds language to the code about expansion of existing structures that have non-conforming setbacks. And we worked through this quite a bit at the last meeting again on August 7th. What you have before you tonight then is the ordinance language uh similar to what you had the last time, but I have noted the changes from the last meeting. I've highlighted those in yellow so they pop out and that starts on page 52 of the packet uh in the PDF. So for example in pergola the word was requested to put in the word permanent as part of the roof system. So I've highlighted that in yellow. Uh anything that hasn't doesn't have a yellow hasn't changed from the last time. That was all things that we all seem to agree on. So then the next changes are on page 55 of the PDF. I deleted out the recreational equipment. We I had proposed setbacks about swing sets and those kind of things. Commission didn't think that was necessary. So that is gone. In section seven, uh added in NFPA 110 and then the note about as those rules as may be amended. Uh and then under covered but open porches, trim that way back. there was a whole bunch of extra words in there that the commission didn't think was necessary. So, trimmed it down to what's there in yellow is the what I would hopefully call the final version of that section. And then lastly on page 57 in the talking about the additions or buildings with non non-conforming setbacks. I had originally proposed that they be only regarding side and rear lot lines and now request the commission added in front yards as a where non-conforming setback that could be maintained but everything else is again the same. So that's a quick overview again went through it quite thoroughly last time. So those are the changes based on the direction I had from the commission. And uh so the request for you tonight is discuss it, review it, and then the recommendation is uh now this one has a more formal motion to uh recommend the city council approval of the ordinance amendment uh that amends the standards for permitted encroachments and additions to non-conforming structures. And I will clean this ordinance up for the council. Take out the coloring and that kind of thing. >> Okay. >> I I wanted to put in the yellow the highlight. >> Are you re But you're retaining the the underlying >> Yes. >> That sort of information >> that has to say >> change. Yeah. >> The the highlighting yellow will come out for the >> uh but I I added that so hopefully it was easier for you to find the changes. >> It is. And thank you. >> Thank you. >> I know reading all those words again would be So that's that's uh my staff report and my recommendation. >> Okay. >> And it is a public hearing. >> It is a public hearing. >> Oh, >> are there any things to discuss prior to the public hearing? We'll open the public hearing in that case at 7:15. And the clock just ticked over to 7:16. So now I can, you know, >> there's no one here. There's no public to speak. I will close it at 7:16. >> Ken, I do have a couple of questions for items in here that we are not considering today. So what I'm wondering is how what's the best way to bring those up? Uh I I think most of them are just questions. uh but it's like they're not pertinent to what we're considering right now. >> So, if I may, Mr. Chair, just be clear, is it other parts of the zoning code that you think need clarifying or other items that might fit into what this ordinance is? >> No. Uh other parts of the zoning code. >> Uh if we can talk about that after the actions tonight as >> Yeah. >> future topics kind of thing. >> Yeah. Like I say, they may just be questions that you can answer and they may not be anything work. >> We can under reports and that kind of thing. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Any further questions? If not, I'll entertain a motion. Mr. Chair, >> could I ask one comment? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> And I'm I think this is the right venue. So I I will say would it be appropriate at this time to ask that if the planning commission approves this before it goes to the city council um it would be reviews reviewed by uh McKenzie as well for code enforcement and if she can attend the um city council meeting that u she provides her recommendation um to the city council. In in hindsight, I guess I wish I would have had her recommendation for this group as well. >> Certainly seems like that, >> but sometimes it's nice to have the people that are going to be enforcing this give us their blessing as well. >> Absolutely. In order. >> Well, if I may, some of these things would be applicable if we get an application in for a building permit. >> Exactly. >> We're checking setbacks and that's done through the zoning office, not through code enforcement. Some of these things might come up if somebody does something that they shouldn't be doing or without a permit. Maybe a building permit or maybe planning and zoning would be involved. Maybe the code enforcement, but I can certainly have her look at it. No problem. >> If something is done without a permit that should have a permit, that's that's a thing. That's an enforcement thing. Um or if something is done that doesn't require a permit, but it doesn't comply. >> That could be a thing. That could be a thing. >> Yes, >> those would both be enforcement components that >> Yes, >> that would be in order. Um I'm not sure how we put that into your into our recommendation to council. U just add it to your >> direct staff to >> Okay. >> have uh >> to have that review happen prior. >> Correct. >> So I guess my question is if you're going to have them review it and there's something that is going to get surface, shouldn't we know about it before we make the recommendation? I my my opinion is if you like the ordinance the way it's written and comfortable with it, you you make your recommendation. If code enforcement comes back and says, "Well, wait a minute. There's >> council can change it, >> right?" Or if it's bad enough, >> you get a problem, we bring it back and talk through Yeah. that before going to council. But >> I'd like to think there won't be any landmines, but Jason has a good point. Let's catch it earlier that way. Personally, my thought would be is if it gets before council and code enforcement has a problem with one section, I would I would recommend that council approves it, striking that one section, >> refer that one section back to planning commission and ask them to be in attendance and approve everything else. That would be my thought process going forward if there is a big hiccup >> or convert or alternatively council could just table the whole thing. >> Yeah. >> Send the whole thing back. >> But I will make sure code enforcement gets it tomorrow. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Assuming you're recommending approval. >> I'm just I'm just looking at the fastest way to move through the process because if they bring something back, I would want to know. I would as as a team I think we would want to at least know about it. If there's not an issue, I mean, again, me respectfully, let's move it through the process. >> And if it's minor, council can just change it in process as part of their approval process >> or staff can >> if it doesn't if it doesn't really warrant coming back to planning. So, >> and I'm just trying to make sure I'm respectful to the boots on the ground that are enforcing this to >> I am absolutely respectful of that because >> the reason we do what we do is we have to choose what we want to try and enforce. So the enforcement is an issue. >> So okay. Excellent. Well, I would entertain a motion to recommend to council based on that that discussion. >> I'll I'll make the motion. >> Motion from Commissioner Muick. Uh second. >> I'll make I'll second. >> Second from from Commissioner Gabro. Um all in favor say I. I. I. Opposed. >> None. Is that the rain? >> It's raining outside. >> The rain or the HVAC? >> I think it's HVAC. >> It was raining outside earlier. >> Well, I have an umbrella. I think what he's hearing is HVAC. >> It was a soft rain, so unless it's >> right. We'll have to look at the radar. Well, anyway, thank you. >> Okay, we are to uh item >> 59. See, >> not 59. >> That's the page. >> And obviously the pages. Well, see, I'm not I'm I'm I have to confess I'm looking at the parts of the packet. I'm not looking at the whole packet. >> Yes. >> So when you're referring to page numbers, it's not relating to that's I that's what I figured out. >> I'm looking at page 59 of 109 just for frame of reference online. >> And I'm looking at the printed page with no bearing whatsoever as to the numbers that you guys are using. >> I'm just playing a game here. >> Um >> I'm looking at page 59. All right, enough of that. >> Would you like a staff report? >> Ken, would you do the staff report? >> So, this again is another item carried over from our meeting in August. It's the proposed update to the subdivision ordinance. And since the last meeting, I there were I think a few comments from the commission. I had a few final comments from our city attorney and the city engineer. Um, nothing really. They're more technical in nature. Nothing that changed the intent or the process or anything. I did confirm with the city attorney that the language on pages 43 and 46 of the ordinance will meet the requirements in his opinion about park dedication and being consistent or conforming with recent state court findings and court actions. uh as outlined in the report. Uh so that's really and and then the one difference in this version that you now have it's now an ordinance form with the city of North St. Paul at the top and all the the repeal and replace. So this does repeal and replace the entire chapter 153 of the code. It's a whole brand new code. It's about three times the length of the existing code, but it's much better for the city. Not that we'll have major subdivisions, but if we do, we're prepared for them. So staff's recommendation again, which is in the recommendation section, is to have a motion to recommend to the city council approval of the ordinance that repeals and replaces chapter 153 of the city code, which is the subdivision regulations. That I'll take questions. So, just to clarify for those who are en enjoying um watching us online, um the a great majority of this um was based on compatibility from a legal standpoint with state ordinance or state statutes. >> And so that's that's I think it's important to understand that that's really kind of what drove this. >> Yes. um which you said it but I like to try to be clear about that for our the public who's going to speak during the public hearing >> right and and also a lot of input from the city engineer because there was many parts that were his opinion lacking so those were two of the big proponents of updating the code >> yeah any questions or we've covered this before so >> okay then we can open a public hearing at 7:25. And since there isn't public here, 30 seconds later, we can close the public hearing. There's no other questions. I would entertain a motion to make the recommendation to council to proceed as recommended by staff. >> I will make a motion to proceed as recommended by staff. A >> motion from Commissioner Rothy. Is there a second? >> I'll second. >> Second from Commissioner Weise. Uh, all in favor say I. >> I. >> I. And nays. We are. Unanimous. That's what's on the agenda. Is there other business? >> A couple things if I may, Mr. Chair. Uh reminder for the commission that all your actions and duties and interactions are subject to state open meeting law. >> So for example, serial what I would call serial emails where one person emails and then another one and another one. uh that violates open meeting law. can't do that because that's creating a meeting but you have a series one person to the next person to the next person or similarly if you send one text message and it gets sent or if you send a text message it's to the whole group that's >> uh >> it's not an open meeting then >> correct and if somebody >> questions it or challenges it they may want to look at your phone or your computer your personal one and for who knows how long. >> Yep. >> So, just just be careful of that if you can have one-on-one conversations but not group conversations. >> Question on that. >> If we sent the same message to each individual, would that would that create a problem with the open meetings act? So let's say I have a point that I want to make outside the meeting and I send it as a single message to each person here seems to violate the intent. But if it's one-on-one interactions just I don't think it violates it that >> but that's what the meetings like this are for is to have those conversations. I mean I would Yeah, exactly. If the kind of topic and you just you might raise it in a message and say, "Hey, by the way, we should talk about this >> and kind of leave it at that because then you put it into the meeting agenda, >> right?" Wasn't that part of the conversation we had a couple years ago with our legal counsel revising some of the things we should or shouldn't do as planning? >> That's what I recall. Yeah, the open meeting law is a it's an important thing that you need to pay attention to and I think >> um I will commend the council. Jason, since you're here, you can pass this on to council. >> Um I know my wife and I have both talked about how our city council has really tried to be very very transparent, our current council >> and and that's really appreciated. I think it's really important and I think Our city doesn't necessarily have a history of being that transparent and I think it's terribly important that the public know what we're doing to the greatest degree possible. >> Agreed. Thank you. So, it is very important. >> Yeah. >> Keep it up. >> One other thing I want to just mention for the commission's benefit, the home occupation amendment that we work so hard on that was approved by the council on August 19th. No changes. >> So, that's now in effect. >> Good. >> That's all I have for reports. I don't know if Jason, if you want to touch on anything >> uh recent council stuff. >> No, I mean past um passed the last recommendation and just just want to say thank you. Um I feel I got lucky getting this commission. Um and you all do excellent work and the work you do is so thorough. um once it gets to city council, it's that there isn't much contention. So, just thank you. Uh you don't hear this often enough, but your work is appreciated. >> And since this is a planning commission, I suggest everyone plan um that the fall festival is on the 13th or I'm sorry, the the autumn arch festival is on the 13th and the fall festival is on the 20th if you would like to plan to attend. What's the thing on the 20th? >> Uh the the autumn arts festival is the one on the 13th at um Casey and then the fall festival is at um >> my mind my blanks a church >> St. Peters. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. >> Peters. >> What day of the week is that? >> Saturday. >> Saturday. Sunday night. Yeah. >> Is it on Sunday too? >> Uh one on the 20th is the St. Peters Festival. She's got a flyer in her mailbox today. >> Um, and Ken brought up a good po point. Um, there is some discussion about um the community center on what its future is. Um and I do expect um that that will be hitting this commission um before any uh you know final decisions are made um uh so it's something to look forward to and again you know thank you for all your hard work and I know whatever comes before you will be thoroughly vetted. >> So did you say that what they decide is going to come here before it goes to city council? Did I just hear that correctly? council is working on it. >> My my understanding and I might need Ken on help on this is any structural change that is over a certain amount of money has to come before the planning commission. So So let's say I I'm going to um pull something out of left field. Let's say we wanted to make um a Renaissance castle where it is. I I if the change for that property meets a certain threshold, my understanding is it has to come before the planning commission before um before it could be a final vote at the city council. Am I correct in that understanding? >> Mr. Mr. Chair, members of the commission, I think what he's referring to is a major change to an improved site plan needs to go through the zoning review just like we did with the school. Similar kind of thing. We're not there yet. I what we're all what the council's for lack of a better term wrestling with right now is they've agreed to not go forward with any further study of the site because of the cost of the building cost to maintain it cost for the improvements that need to be done. So now it's what does the city do with it? Do we offer it up for sale? Do we try to reimagine it for something else? And those are decisions that I expect will be coming event through the council in the next six to eight weeks at the most because one of the options is the city or yeah the city got grant money of four or four and a half million from the state in 2023 for the cultural center and and that I don't remember all the terms. the study done by the consultant said that's financially it's just not not going to work. You're probably not going to be able to get the tenants get the cash flow plus make the improvements to the building. And so the city has said uh the council vote was four to one to send that grant money back to the state with the understanding the city can ask the state to reallocate that money or ask them to reallocate that money to some other public use within the city. And that's one of the next steps the city needs to figure out. Do we want as a city use it for a water tower? Do we want to use it towards park improvements? Do we want to use it towards street improvements or some other public thing? >> And the state has to agree to that. And we may we as a city I'm saying we as a city we send the money back and say we're not going to do this project but please can we reallocate it for something else? The state may say yeah okay or they may say no because there's no guarantees. Mhm. >> So, that's one thing that needs to be decided because that would have to go back to the legislature and they're going to convene in January. Really, I think ideally we'd have that decision made by the 1 of December. Uh, Representative Lily has said that he will help guide that request for whichever way the city decides. Uh, so there's a lot there's still a lot of moving pieces. Stay tuned. We Another factor is the library. >> Library is part of the building. There's a lease. Is there a lease? There's some question about that. Does the library need to stay? Can the city find another spot? We Brian and I and Dan are trying to set up a meeting with the library staff hopefully by the end of the month. They're don't seem to have a sense of urgency that we have. Uh are they open to other spaces? are they not? So, that's one factor that plays into this. >> Yeah, I'm sure you folks have seen the online stuff that I've seen where where some people are saying they're closing the community center, so North St. Paul is losing their library. It's going to go away. >> Well, I tell you, um we've been watching the whole community center >> Yeah. uh progress and I will commend council and staff significantly. There's a lot of work that's going into that. It's it is not a simple solution any way you look at it. No matter what, it's a lot of work. And we're I think council is trying very very hard to um make decisions that are good for the community overall and not just for the few. Um, and that that's a tough thing to do. So, I'm uh and staff is working really hard on it and that I was at the last council meeting and it was um very evident there's a lot going on and really trying to get the pieces put together and ducks in a row, if you will. Um, and we saw some of those same things online. >> Yeah. >> And I think there are a lot of people that are >> less informed >> Yes. >> about realities. >> Exactly. Yeah. Um there's there's a lot of assumptions being made um you know when they've had open houses and things to talk about community center you know 20 or 30 people show up out of a community of 12,000 you know you don't hear from a lot of people that way. So, um I just will would encourage, you know, whenever you're out on the street and you're talking to people, get involved, you know, know what's going on and it and it will it will inform the council to make good decisions. So, anyway, um Commissioner Muick, you had made uh you had raised a question earlier about other zoning ordinance um >> changes >> things. Yeah. >> Yeah. Is do you have anything particular in mind that you think we should be addressing that we haven't? >> No, I don't know that it is anything for the commission to address there. Just there's some wording things. Uh for example, I'll just give you one. Uh the relationship to other laws and regulations. That paragraph is confusing and I wonder whether that takes into consideration uh the chance that we could have I don't know that we do but that we could have a uh uh covenant or deed or restrictive uh that might say that this property shall not be sold to blacks or Jews. And so, you know, do we for something like that, uh, do we need to change this slightly so that it says that comply with current laws or something to that effect? Because we're saying in here that uh that we are not intending to repeal, aggregate, enol, or in any way impair or interfere with priv with private restrictions from a property by deed. But if that's written into the deed because that was what was done in 1933, >> is that saying the city's, you know, >> is the city part of the I know there's a project to take those covenants off. Yeah. Is the city of North St. Paul involved in that. Is anyone in the city? I guess I haven't looked at >> that I'm aware of. No. >> Okay. >> Like I say, I don't know that it's a problem out here. But on the other hand, >> I don't know either. >> You know, Minneapolis, St. Paul and some of the other near-end suburbs are dealing with that now. And yeah, >> so if we're, you know, as I was reading, >> you're talking about hidden statutes, if you will, things that we don't necessarily know. >> Yeah. >> That exist. >> Exactly. >> The racial comments are >> No, like I say, it's it's doesn't apply at all. >> If you find them, bring them up. That would be great. So I I would think that you know if there is if there is something that's appropriate in that regard I don't know something to think about. >> Yeah. I mean you know not like you have enough to do Ken. >> We want to do it correctly. >> We always want to do it correctly. All right. Are there any other reports? Anybody have anything else? There is um >> there's a there's another event you you mentioned that the fall festival at St. Peters on the 13th, but there's another thing. >> St. Peters is the 20th. >> St. Peters is the 20th. What's the thing on the 13th? >> Autumn Arts. >> The Autumn Arts Festival. >> Autumn Arts Festival. Okay, that's that. >> And then don't we have something on the 18th? >> There's the parade on the 18th. >> Oh, the fall parade. I don't remember what it's called exactly. >> Round up. >> Round up. >> That one. >> Yep. and Booya on October 5th. >> And Booya on October. Yep. >> They're going to start taking orders tomorrow or Monday. Pre-orders for the Booya. >> Really? >> Last time I went to Booya there, I was getting the drags and I was only there I was not there late, but the lines get really long, so watch out. Get there early with your containers. >> That's why you pre-order. >> Yeah, I know. Exactly. >> Well, they supply the containers here. Yeah, it's it's a really interesting event, but it's great because it's >> secret recipe. I've asked they won't share it. I >> No, no, they'll never share. >> Varies from year to year depending on what they can get their hands on. Y >> it's a secret. >> That's the secret. >> That is the secret. >> I verified there's no roadkill. I >> No, >> no. I think I I have in fact watched them begin the preparation and I think there's they use good stuff. quality food. >> More like stone soup if you remember that old child. >> It's quality food. >> All right. Um I guess we're up to adjournment. Someone want to make a motion to adjurnn? >> Oh, we haven't checked with everybody to see if they hadn't. >> Well, I did, but >> Okay. >> You've already spoken your piece. >> I've spoken I've spoken my piece too much tonight. So, >> anybody else? >> I would like to thank the fire department for hosting a blood drive this afternoon. >> Oh. >> So, >> good. >> I parttook it. They're going to try to do that quarterly. >> Okay. Yeah, good. >> Heard a report that um after the shooting in Minneapolis, uh the blood memorial blood bank saw a 400% increase in donations, >> which I guess from that perspective is good news, but um that was a lot of bad news that we're living with there. So, okay. Motion to adjurnn. >> Motion to adjurnn. >> From Commissioner Rothy. Is there a second? >> I'll second. Commissioner Gabway. I'll give it to you. >> All right. >> That was first. >> All in favor say I. >> I. >> I. We are adjourned at 7:42. [Music] Thank you all. >> Thank you all.