call to order the uh well it's an unusual date but you know what it is what it is July 9th planning commission mini planning commission meeting of North St. call at 6:30. Um, roll call, please. Yes, Mr. Chair. Commissioner Alvarez, here. Commissioner Rathy, here. Oh, Elizabeth, I'm sorry, Cadboy. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. We're all here. Commissioner Weiss here. Cameron, present. Yeah. Thank you. Stephanie here. I got to work on the names. And Chair Patrick, yes. Here. All in attendance. Thank you. I appreciate that from everybody. Um especially because it's not the usual day. Um we have an agenda before us tonight. Uh if there's a motion to adopt the agenda, I would entertain that. I will make that motion. Motion from Commissioner Gadboy. Second. I'll second. Second from Commissioner Rothy. All in favor say I. I. All right. Um meeting minutes from July from June 5th meeting. I would entertain a motion to approve the meeting minutes as written. I'll make a motion. Motion from Commissioner Rothy. A second. A second. Second from Commissioner Alvarez. Is there any discussion on that? Comments, questions. All in favor say I. I. Let's get to this. Um for the Thank you members of the public who are here. I really appreciate it. I always like to see faces. Um tonight um the agenda always has an opportunity for the public to speak on topics other than what's on the agenda and that is all it's always on the agenda. Um tonight we also have public hearings. So, if you have something you want to comment on that is not related to the public hearing, there will be an opportunity for that first and then we'll do the public hearings on the two items that are that are on the agenda. Just thought I would make clarification for those who don't do this all the time. I know how much fun this can be. Um, but I do I really do appreciate you being here. So awkward night twice. It's an awkward day. Oh, it's just not the usual. Um, we usually have our meetings on the first Thursday of the month, which would have been last which would have been last Thursday, which would have been the day before the 4th. So we moved the meeting. So So it's a special night from that perspective. That's all. and I was expressing appreciation to all the members of the commission who are here because it is not the usual day. So, um that being said, I will open the floor to um meeting open to the public if you want to speak on anything not on the agenda. Is there anyone here for that purpose? Can you come up to the to the mic and state your address, name and address? Yep. Thanks. Hi there. I'm Tim Taylor and I have a short little itinerary passing around. What I'm doing is I'm looking for some support. Came into the office today and I'm from Blaine too. I'm building a new house here in North St. Paul and I asked well who's my commissioner representative for my precinct and they said well we don't really have one. I go okay. What I'll do is I'll just come in and I'll talk to everybody. I kind of voice my concerns and then uh maybe somebody can come back up and you know give contact me and visit with me and maybe we can come up with a constructive plan. I have a uh from Mr. Chair, do you want to limit this to three minutes? Yeah. Well, it should be limited to three minutes. Okay. No, I meant your whole time. No, your whole time is limited to three minutes. Thanks. I want it off. Thank you. Good. I just wanted to make sure you're aware of that. All right. So, I I talked to the code compliance officer and I brought some problems to the attention and I believe I got professionally blown off. Um to start out with in front of my house, I have a no parking sign and it's so old that the lettering fell off. I said, "Hey, can I get a new sign here?" you know, so I don't have big semi trucks parking them in my front yard, you know, so they run in and grab an ice cream cone. Um, nothing happened with that. Number two, um, the the Dairy Queen owner came across and on my property, cut down four to five different trees. And on one hand, that's a civil issue, but on the other hand, it's a violation of the law. we have a city ordinance and you're supposed to have licensed tree people to do this and he didn't have that and I gave that information to the compliance officer you know he intentionally came over and cut my trees down and he didn't want to have anything to you know tell him he's just telling me that he can do that and I got something from the compliance officer saying that you know you do have an ordinance in place so I asked if there's was a citation given for that crickets I feel that's kind of a violation to me because the rules are put in place to support or to protect the public and my my I'm not being protected. So I believe you know the guy should get still get a citation and I have an email there for that. Is he indicating he thinks those trees are on his land? Is that why he cut them down? No, he crosses I got a property. I'm building a house. He came on my property and cut them down and he'll do that. He even told me he's going to cut more trees down so I can see Highway 36. Oh, okay. Oh, you got a gem of an owner there at the Dairy Queen. Gotcha. So, so like I said, I supplied correspondences with that communication to the city. So, you know, he he guilty said it himself in his own in his own handwriting. Um, city provided documentation that you got to be licensed to do this. He wasn't licensed. And then I'm I'm concerned about court enforcement because you guys don't do that. Number three, there's supposed to be a fence or a buffer in between a business and a residential property and there isn't any. And I brought it to the attention to the code code enforcement person and they said, "Well, we'll look into it." And that's where it stopped. They said, "Well, basically they're you sitting on your hands." Well, why are you sitting on your hands? There's supposed to be a fence. So, I I call up and I ask a fence company to come out here and take a look at this fence problem. Well, on the front side, if I'm residential, it can only go up four feet. But if you're commercial over there and go up six feet on the back end of the lot, it drops off and there's a burm in there. And if I go up six feet, it only covers about two feet of the parking lot. So, I can't go up. So, you know, I got a hardship on that part. But it's not even my responsibility to have that buffer fence in there. I was just looking at you know because I don't want to see it. You know this guy's kind of a you know he's not very he's problematic. But now if the city would enforce that that uh buffer fence puts it on his property it's all graded out. It's flat because there's a burm there and it's flat. Problem taken care of. City won't do it. So um I have a survey. city already had a copy of the survey once, so I can leave that there for you, too. It shows that um it shows you everything that you need to know. So, you go, "Well, you're making this stuff up." No, I paid for a survey. I have a survey. And I pointed out the fact that there's a difference between commercial fences and residential fences. And on on the front side, within so many feet of front of your house, it can only be four feet. Well, the problem is they got a drive-thru and they just beam everybody, you know, their headlights. Okay. It's also I looked up, it depends on the ordinance, but I also looked up the rule. It says there's supposed to be a six-foot buffer in between the property line and the parking lot. Parking lot goes right up to the property line. And if you take a look at that letter from Miss Bird, the prior owner, they've had problems with people driving over the cliff and running into their fence and knocking it down. Okay, so that's a problem going forward. There's also another problem with the retaining wall. The retaining wall at the back is over five feet deep. If somebody falls off the retaining wall, falls into my property, gets hurt on my property, not theirs, because they fall into my land, I suppose I get sued. So, where's the um you got to have a fence after 48 inches. You got to have a a restraining wall. And there's no restraining wall there. So, now I'm at risk because of lack of code enforcement. So, I think somebody has to step up to the plate, you know, and say, "Hey, we got to get something done." You put that fence up. Takes care of a lot of problems. The retaining walls falling apart. It's probably from the 1950s. It's built out of shale and the slope of the parking lots coming towards my lot. When it rains, I get it's pollution, you know. I get all the salt from the road. I get all the debris from the cars. I get all the trash washes into my lot. So, that It needs to be it's it's antiquated. It's outdated. It's past its useful life. It's time to rebuild it and bring it up. I called before I built my house. I called the city. You said that there was no roundabout going coming in. I called the state. They said there was no roundabout coming in. And I called the county. There's no roundabout coming in. Anything today or in the next few years? Nope. Nothing. Crickets. So therefore, I applied for a permit. and you guys granted me a building permit to build the house. I talked about the six feet on the back. Um, there's a liability risk. Um, if you could give me the insurance company, I'm would be glad to contact the insurance company and I'm sure they could make some type of correction. Code is 48 in. Um, garbage bins. There's a rule on a corner that you got to be 20t back on the right and on the left side with no obstruction. has a garbage can that's really big. It's not in an enclosure. He doesn't have doors on his enclosure. And when I pull up and I look to the right, you know, it's like I get to stare at the garbage can. Okay, it's not in the right place. So, you know, that's another code enforcement thing. It's by the edge of the road. You should have boxes with a door on it, and you should have your waste facilities behind the doors within a boxed area. um handicap parking. My daughter um is unfortunately she can't walk. Okay. So, if I go in there and I want to use the the Dairy Queen, the handicap parking is not correct. It has about a 10% grade like that. It's two spots simultaneously together without a five foot space in between the two. you know, the guy has a conditional use permit and you guys can pull it. And I would probably say, you know, with all these violations, maybe you should pull this conditional use per minutes. Maybe it's time to move the Dairy Queen to a better location. You know that on the handicap thing, it's an afterthought. There's two handicap spots. You got to drive through the drive-thru line to get it. And it's like this. If my kid's in the wheelchair or something, you know what happens if it tips over? There's a real sweet spot in front of the front door that's nice and flat. You could put a space in between the two. You know, who watches this stuff? I mean, how can you get away with this? You know, so I would like to see the handicap parking taken take a look at. Um, I just want to find somebody in the council member here who, you know, gets here because they want to help the people in the community and fix these problems going forward. Today, I have this problem. tomorrow when I sell the house or if I sell the house down the road, the next people will have this problem. I'm strong enough to come up here and talk about it, but you know, somebody else that comes in, we have people coming from different countries and different I mean, they're shy. They're very shy. They're not going to step up here. Take care of the problems today. Don't pass them on to the next person tomorrow or, you know, three or four or five years down the road. All right. My phone number is on there. You can get a hold of me. I would really like to hear from somebody. I'd like to walk the property. I'd like to come up with a constructive plan so we can address these issues. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, Mr. Taylor. Here's a uh Thank you. Thank you, Tim. Thank you. Don't mind me. I'm just taking notes. Okay. So, I think we're down to the next um next item on the agenda, public hearings. So, let's address item A, land use plan amendment and zoning map amendment. Um Ken, can you present that please? Absolutely, Mr. Chair. Thank you. Um the city staff has identified two areas along 7th Avenue and South Avenue, which are the areas up on the screen for which the city should consider amending the future land use plan designation and the zoning map for these. I'm going to click around and show you a few different maps. this an aerial view of it doesn't quite fit. I'm sure for those in the audience this looks pretty familiar. Uh again, the areas we're talking about are here in the red just east of Mcnite Road along south either side and then along the north side of South and Oakhill Place. And the reason we've brought this to the attention of the planning commission and eventually the city council is because the future land use plan designation for these Oh, that's not the one I wanted. We'll get there. This This is the zoning of the area. And the zoning. Yeah. No, I'm going to get one more map. This one. So, the the future land use plan designation is the designation the city put has put on the properties as part of the comprehensive plan. The current designation for these is corridor mixed use. And that's the same designation from Mcnite Road all the way into downtown all the way to Margaret Street in past. And that was put in place probably three or four years ago when the city last updated the comprehensive plan. And that land use designation. What that means is here I'm quoting it's established to encourage the development or redevelopment of mixed use centers that combine retail development with a variety of housing offices live work spaces employment activities or other complimentary uses. That sounds great. And then the zoning uh is very similar designation to that. It's a mixeduse zoning. What staff is somewhat concerned about is I'm not convinced that this area will ever redevelop, at least in our lifetimes. I don't foresee a time where a developer could come in and buy five, six, 10 properties and do a redevelopment project to put in some kind of mixed use development. And to be clear, this is this request, this idea is staff generated. There's not a developer, there's no one knocking on our door saying, "We're thinking about doing this." Is this is staff's idea. You just hang on. You'll get your turn. Uh and so with that then if we look at the zoning map zoning designation and this is the same for all these properties is the words aren't there but I'll read it to you. The zoning currently is where the heck did I put it? Oh yeah, the I'm sorry. Here we go. The zoning map is currently MU3, which is a corridor mixed use, which is consistent with that land use designation. And some of these maps, I think, were in the public hearing notice that we mailed out. And for the record, we bailed out about 250 notices to that to that area. Uh what that means is all this existing residential uses in that in those two areas and that's again back in these two areas all have the same zoning all have the same land use designation and that zoning means that if a property owner wants to expand their house or do a major addition of more than 10% of the square footage, city code doesn't allow that because it's a legal non-conforming use because we're saying it should be a commercial or mixeduse designation or zoning or that's what it is but yet there's single family homes on these properties and again long big picture with the residential here the newer residential I I at least staff's opinion and we'll see what the plane commission thinks I don't foresee these areas is redeveloping. So to what I would view correct the maps the designations staff is proposing we change future land use designation and that's well that's this one uh to a residential district residential a residential designation and change the zoning to an R2 zoning which is our uh it's a mixed residential zoning designation And that allows for single family homes, duplexes, and even some town houses. And the reason for that, we're proposing that zoning district is the lots in these areas. I did the math and back here. They range in size from about 4,800 square ft to 19,600 square feet. I think the largest one is up here. Uh the R2 zoning district requires a minimum lot size of only 3,630 feet. So by lot size and uses, the R2 zoning for all these would make them conforming properties. So if an owner wants to put an addition on and do whatever kind of projects on their site, as long as they can meet our setback requirements, they could go ahead and do that. With the current zoning, there would be a lot of restrictions, potentially a lot more hoops to jump through to do a project. So, a long way to get to the the uh the recommended actions for tonight. Uh page four of the staff report commission, which is page 12 in the packet. We have two motions for your consideration. One is to change the current land use designation uh recommend to the and be clear plan commission makes a recommendation city council will make the final decision on these. The recommendation is to change the future landius map uh as outlined for these areas on the re that I showed on the in this map in the report uh to a low from corridor mixed use to low density residential and then following along with that then changed the zoning map for these same properties and that change would be from a mixeduse corridor zoning to our R2 two which is our mixed use or excuse me mixed residential zoning designation. So that is the staff recommendation uh in my report and at this point I'll take questions from the commission. Right now these are all residential yes parcels. Right. Yeah. And there are two vacant parcels I should point out. Yep. This lot here is vacant and this lot here yep is vacant. All the others have single family homes. I think there might be one duplex in there. Okay. So, this would help those people that live there currently if they want to do changes because they don't have to go through the mixeduse hoops. They can just do the R2. Yes. Okay. Other commissioner questions any All right. Well, we can open the public hearing then at uh 6:53. So, if if anyone would like to speak on this topic, um please introduce yourself and your and your address and u feel free to come forward. Randy Reynolds, 2297 South Avenue East. And you know, like I read that letter I got and you know, I'm just an average guy. I couldn't make heads or tails out of what it was saying, whether you wanted to take all our properties and turn it into uh um not residential, but commercial and so forth. So, that's all I'm concerned about. I mean, I retired three years ago. I got into a house. I love it here. I don't want to be, you know, tossed out and have to, you know, redo anything. So, I'm just asking things will pretty much stay the way they are, right? I mean, I don't care how you change the the uh what you call it. You know, that doesn't make any difference to me. But I just want to be assured that, you know, 10 years from now, God forbid I'm not dead, that uh I'll be able to live in that house and not have to worry about I better get out of here. the city wants it for something. If I'm understanding it right, this actually will help the residents that have homes there to be able to do changes because they can meet a lower standard compared to a mixeduse which would allow for commercial and so it would be more consistent with what actually exists. Okay, great. And again, there's no development plans by the city or a developer to in my view this is just correcting maps. Okay, that shouldn't have been changed three or four years ago. Okay, thank you. Yeah. Okay. Jeff Hansson 2219 Oakill Place. Uh is I mean is there going to be any effect on our taxes or is this going to affect in a way our insurance say for our homes? Anything that's going to change financially for us because of this zoning? No imagine that there would be wouldn't no not because of what the city does. Yeah. Yeah. Is that it? So, [Laughter] all right. We got one more. Oh, yeah. Please, please use a microphone. Take your time. It's okay. We'll be here. Yeah. I don't want to rush anybody. It's just Oh, no. My name is Betty Schultz. We live at 2395 7th Avenue East, which is on the corner of Oakill and 7th. My question is that on the map that we got the you know we have the outlines in red and you know along Oakill it shows you know all of the existing houses but the map that we got also shows that all of the open land to the west of Oakill Place is included in that red area. So I'm just curious Wait, are you talking about this area? Yes, that's not included. Okay, because the map we got it shows it in the same color. So, just wanted to verify that. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. John McGee, 2183 Belmont Lane. I'm wondering what was the zoning before we changed it a few years ago and why did we change it then? I wasn't here with a good question. Patrick May know it was I think done as part of the 2040 comp plan update. Yeah, which would have been Sorry, I don't I don't remember years ago. It was probably what I'm proposing now. Yeah, it might have. I can't imagine it would have been R1. No, but it could have been. But unfortunately or fortunately, that's Yeah. Unless there's somebody who's been on the commission longer than No. Okay. Yeah. It was probably right before I was involved. I was a rookie at that time. Maybe. Anyone else? If not, um, we can close the public hearing at 658. I'd like to go ahead and propose that we accept the change as suggested for clarity. Mr. Chair, there are two separate motions for item A. Yes. Okay. This page 12 in the materials. Should we should we specifically group them together or specifically not group them together? That would be be my recommendation. Take one at a time. Okay. So, that being the case, what did you say? It was page page 12 or four depending on earlier, Patrick. Yeah, I thought so. But earlier before that, too. Before the maps. Yep. I just want to see what I'm looking at here. There you got it. Oh, okay. Okay. So, Commissioner Muick, would you like to recommend to the council with regard to the future land use map change? Sure. I'll go ahead and make uh motion number one. My motion. Okay. Not quite sure why we're doing this as two, but you know, two separate documents. So, and is there a second for that? I'll make a second. Second from Commissioner Rathy. Any further discussion? If not, all in favor say I. I. I. None opposed. Nay. We have a nay. I haven't yet. We have a nay. So, that motion passes. Um, and then the change to the the second one is the zoning map. Correct. Correct. So, I would entertain a motion for the change recommending to the council the change of the zoning map. I'll motion to do that change. Motion from Commissioner Alvarez. A second. I'll second that one as well. Second from Commissioner Rathy. Any further discussion? Pardon me. Uh, all in favor say I. I. Opposed? Nay. Okay, that motion passes. That will go to the council uh next month or later this month? It's tenatively scheduled to go to the council next Tuesday. Yeah, next week. They'll make the final decision. Okay, thanks for coming. You can stay for the next item. Item SE 6B is the zoning ordinance text amendment for home occupations. Um, looking for a staff presentation. Thanks for coming. Thank you. Thank you. Should I wait a minute? Yeah, sure. It was same thing I said last last meeting. Same thing I said last meeting. Perhaps the letter they got I don't remember what it was. Wasn't as clear as your presentation. Going backwards. But there's because your presentation seemed to take the wind out of the room pretty quick and it was pretty clear and I didn't see the letter. So I didn't see the letter either. It did not. It can be confusing to read. You see commercial and residential and you can understand you clarified it and they all went oh yeah you could see like they're ready to the relief. Oh this is okay. You did good. Thank you. Yeah. does make me wonder whether we need to review the letters we send out a little better to make sure that they're clear and not too full of and and and I had Chris read the letter before we send it just it depends on how much of an audience Bill wants to have. Oh, that's true. Hey, we could get an audience almost every month if we just send them out. Oh, boy. If we wanted to. Yeah, it's such a technical thing, too. It's hard to describe it in a way that it's it's our world and when I understand completely. Yeah. And and I think that can I appreciate your your presentation and I have had enough experiences with the planning commission when the public is present that there are generally a bunch of people who don't deal with this every day and we really need to make it as clear as we can. Yes. Yes. and and simplify it just because it's a different language. Yeah. In some ways, what the heck's the city up to and why are they and why are they trying to do that to us? What's mu? Yeah. Why are they trying to make this commercial? That's I mean that was the comment that you shared. Yeah. I'm just wondering whether it might have been and maybe you did this because I didn't see the letter but maybe like a bullet point uh at you know in the letter saying this is what this means to you. You know if we had said you know this won't the impact impact statement right? uh that might have assaged their fears. But then again, like I say, I didn't see the letter. So, you may have said that and you know, we all know that I mean, anybody that gets the letter from the city is automatically assuming that we're doing something that they're not going to like. It's also not a bad thing that people show up. Yeah, exactly. And to ask questions. They are curious. They care. It's part of the process. Shall we talk home occupations? Yes, sure. Thank you. Uh so as a commission remembers we had this on the last meeting as well. Commission we reviewed a draft ordinance. Commission had some recommended comments and changes and I incorporated most of those in the ordinance that was in the packet. Bottom of page one. I had a list of nine items that I changed one way or another. Uh, I can go through those if you want, but I think I tried to address most of those and had reasons for doing whatever the way I did it. Uh, that's in the packet. After we published the packet, we received comments from one one resident who had some questions and that's the email that I laid out before you. Uh, and in response to that, uh, some of the points I think had some validity, a couple did not. I made a copy of the ordinance. I marked it up. I put it in the corner with Ken's notes, 7925, uh, in response to some of those suggestions. And so, for example, in the level one home occupations, uh, 19 C there on the first page, add in a no and an and no, just to make sure it's clear. And, and in the ordinance that you have, the underlined sections are where the primary changes were made to help pop those out for your reading, catch your eye. Uh but this person also then it's not in the email raised a question about the cottage food producers which I printed off from the state of Minnesota what those are what that means is something I learned about and I think that person had a good point that cottage food producers that the ones that work from home make a product and then they sell it out and about at farmers markets or direct to consumers should be listed someplace as a home occupation. I'm recommending it as another one under level one because they don't shouldn't have customers coming to the home and they might be shipping things out by delivery. They might be delivering it on their own. So my addition there number two is saying cottage food producers subject to the regulations of the Minnesota Department of Agriculture. That's my chicken scratching there for that one. So, that was a late addition that wasn't in the email. Uh, I I included in the staff report some uh analysis or review about daycarees and daycare centers and day nurseries. In doing a deep dive after the last planning commission meeting, I found in the zoning code there's one, two, three, four, five different definitions that are all kind of sort of related to the topic of daycare and daycare centers. Of course, why would it be straightforward and simple? Uh but bottom line, day nurseries and are permitted use in the single family in the residential districts and daycare centers are permitted use in the R1, R2, and R3 districts and are a conditional use in the mixeduse districts. So reading that, it seemed to me we don't need to list those as a home occupation. They're in the zoning code. are already there. Yeah. Well, I'm I and that's in E at the top of page two of the ordinance in the level three. I'm proposing just to strike any reference to daycare at this point because all those are covered. And sometime if we actually clean up the entire zoning code, we can go back and revisit all the definitions and figure out what we really need or not. But for now, uh, I don't see a need to have those listed as a level three because they're covered elsewhere in the zoning code. So, what's your what is your I'm sorry I'm interrupting you. That's my apologies. No. Um, where you state there now is family daycare. Right. So, the the the code now says family daycare and then the request was at the last meeting we should change that to inhome daycare. And I'm and so that's what I initially put in. Mhm. And then after further review, I'm saying let's just strike the whole thing. Do we strike the reference to family there as well? Yeah. Right. Okay. Yeah. Thank you for clarifying, but that's that's that's my intent with that. Okay. So So to clarify, so for the level three, so someone small engine, small building trades, heating, plumbing, they need to go to the city council to get an interim use permit. Correct. As proposed. Yes. Uh the next so then in AF going down the line here uh it was pointed out in the email that the appeal process starts with the plane commission and not city council. So I had city council in there recommend change that to plane commission. I assume if person doesn't like the plane commission answer then they can appeal it to the city council. So that's why that's changed. Uh it's maybe a little bit of word smithing that may or may not be necessary, but they're recommending that in G1 that when we refer to licenses, say license or registration because some things need licenses, some need registration. I think the intent was both, but if we want to be perfectly clear, put in the word registration as well. And that's what those notes are for. Uh if you look down in X, there was a comment about adding in the words not visible or visible from the public street and that's why that's added with the underline. That was a comment from the last meeting. Uh well so that's why that changed. uh the only other one and so going on to the next page you can see again some of the things that are underlined to add clarity and the points that were talked about say veterinary services we talked about the last meeting uh we had a request to call out unlicensed firearm or ammunition sales and repair animal boarding though is still kind of a hot mess frankly it's Mhm. Uh because everybody's got animals now. Well, yes. And but yet they are only currently listed I had it in here as I think as a conditional use or an interim use in the mixed use districts which doesn't help in the single. Oh, it's I'm sorry. It's on it's number nine on the first page of the report. It said, uh, we talked about cuz, oh, I I'm proposing that animal boarding as a prohibited home occupation as they're only allowed in the MU3 zoning district by conditional use permit currently. I And then is it, you know, will you do is animal boarding different than pet sitting and pet care? Is it different from a person having 12 dogs which or fostering, right? Or fostering or Yes. You know, I'm taking care of my friend's dog for a month when they're gone. And yeah, I think now you can have two or three dogs without a kennel license or anything then. Yeah. Is there a limit on how many? I I didn't I didn't Yeah, I don't have animals. By whose law? Who's I don't know. My husband tells me I'm not allowed to get more animals though because that's that's between you and your husband. He's like He does look things up. So I wouldn't doubt if it's three. I'm I'm sure there is a number where there is a number. It's typically three or four in most of these. I didn't look it up in this case. So I'm and not that's why I left that kind. Yeah. I I think of an example. I have I had a friend um years ago and they they had small purebred I can't remember the dog species but they were small dogs and um the dog breed but um and they had you know they had just had a litter six pups that they were going to sell and it was in their house and it was it wasn't disturbing anybody. So, I thought, why not why not allow that kind of thing within reason? And I to be clear, I think mo and again, I didn't research this code, but every other code I've ever read talks about animals older than six months allowing for those that have litters time to right hopefully distribute. I also think that there's a determination where they can clarify and so if they're like, am I allowed to do this? They could ask is there a specific to animal boarding? Like I don't know know if we need to make it more complicated. So you were talking about there potentially is a rule. Yeah. I'm pretty sure there is cuz the foster we were f we were getting they were like I'm not allowed to have more. How many dogs or cats or whatever you can have. Right. If there are regulations in that regard, you know, like you can only have three dogs without having a a a license of some sort. Yeah. a kennel license. If there are rules such as that that are already established, then we probably need to understand that to determine do we even put anything in here at all. The other thing I would wonder about would be all right. So, let's say that we put in here uh you know that the six-month limitation do we then want to put a limitation as to how many litters per year? Because you know what's to say that somebody doesn't have you know every six months their their dogs having another you know another litter to sell. Yeah. So you know but what if they're rabbits not dogs? In other words every I'm no I'm just being true people do have I know have rabbits. No, and that's you that's very true. And I'm just thinking, you know, do we if we do that, do we need to put some sort of limitation that says, you know, no more than one brood a year or, you know, something like that? I don't know. It's just that's all well and good, but how do we enforce it? Yeah, it's I don't you you probably can't see the screens. I found the kennel license requirements. The kennel is the keeping of three or more dogs on the three. Is that ours? Yes. Okay. And if you want to have more than three, then you have to get a kennel permit. And that's just three total or like four. He's saying three or more. So that would be two are allowed. Curious how my husband interprets things. So um and that's you got to get rid of one of your dogs now. Are there going to be requirements for other animals? Are there requirements with regard to restrictions like I I can't keep a whole bunch of snakes for instance or something? I mean are there where do you where do we draw those lines? You know and like you said how do you enforce it? Yeah. Well, you enforce it if they get completely out of hand. Most of this is someone's doing something to cause a problem and someone complains. Exactly. So, for instance, the cottage industry one to to go back to that. I know several people in my neighborhood who have that and they only sell to people that come to their home because they're not shipping and it's mostly to their neighbors and their friends and it isn't that they're coming up at midnight jam and jelly. It's their neighbors and they come over. The pie gal on 7th, she just puts a card table out in her yard every once in a while and I go get pie. didn't know about this. Yeah, didn't know about that either. By the way, you're holding out on the So, in other words, does the cottage food producer become a level two in that case? She does it like once a month or something and she doesn't she hasn't done it for a while and we're kind of like, but but we'll just call her once in a while. There's a a bread place a block from me where they'll ship it, but I know you can go get it. What is with your block? My wife does jams and jellies very I also was curious about that because is it is it any different than the makers you were talking about last time the crafters who craft in their home like this is a state thing because it's food because it's food and food is a whole different beast right reference that they have to be licensed or registered do we need to call it out there's on the definitions here too um it actually says that you cannot ship human food. So, um, correct. You can ship pets, treats, but but not human consumption. So, it is I think we could be backing someone into a corner if we say that people can't come to their house. Yeah. Yeah. I I don't know that I totally trust an AI overview, though. So, I looked at three or four places. Okay. AI over that one was as good as any. I I just want to be clear that totally go off. Just so you know, it's a pretty low bar to get the cottage to get this from this the state. I walk downstairs and she has it placered in a thing the the slip and I'm like, "When did you get this?" She's like, "Oh, you just sent for it." Okay. It's pretty pretty low bar to jump over, but she wanted to be legit. So, sure. Anyway, I do have a completely tangental question and that it just kind of came to my thoughts as I was reading the email that you got. Uh, point number three about some homeowners may want a fuller or part-time employee. Now, this is not my question is not about home occupation, but I'm just wondering it do we have anything in the code that would prevent a homeowner from having an employee on in the home, you know, like uh a caregiver that they hire or I don't know if we have anybody in that strata, but a housekeeper or something like that. Do we do we have that anything that could restrict a a general homeowner from having an an employee in their house? I don't I don't think so. But that wouldn't be considered a home. No, it's not. That wouldn't be considered a home business. That's why I'm saying it's tangental to this. It has nothing to do with the home business as per se. It just triggered something. Would me? No. No, we don't have there. I wouldn't think that we would have any rules in that regard. So, did we got sidetracked here? Did we figure out about kennels and animal boarding and not because because I don't think we want to list animal boarding as a home occupation? Well, that's on the prohibited list because again, they are called out only called out in the MU3 zoning district. Is animal boarding any different than kennel services? If it's if kennel services is already up there, why do we even need to call it out? Well, because it's defined in the code. Let me find the definitions. Come on. Animal boarding facility. Any lot or premises on which dogs, cats, and or other household pets are kept, boarded, raised for sale, or adoption. Also known as animal daycare, animal kennel, or animal shelter. Doesn't that refer to animal kennel right there in the definition? Yes. Keep it together. Yeah. I'm trying to think of simplification as opposed to making it more complex. Well, an animal boarding sounds the more sounds more general. It does. And a kid could want to just watch their neighbor's pet and it would they take the wrong would their parents be worried? Well, I wouldn't think so. Oh, but yeah. you know, can you have your teenager watch our dog for a month and we'll pay him there. Now you have an animal boarding. Right. Right. Yeah. And but if if they're doing it in the owner's home and they're just checking on the animal, then they're not boarding them. And they're not boarding it. But if they're bringing up their house, right? Yeah. And then well, you can say, "Well, we have one dog now. We have two for a month." Well, then then we're not over the number of animal limit. the the the real, you know, I think about when I was a kid and I was cutting the neighbor's grass. Technically, that was a home business. Technically, I brought my lawn mower over there and they paid me. Um, so I guess what I I think about the regulations and we put things into into rules that are enforceable. What is the purpose of having that included? If it's not going to be enforced, we don't want to bother. But sometimes the rules are just there so that there's not abuses. So the animal boarding scenario, I think the abuses would be, you know, large numbers of animals and being disruptive to neighbors and things like that, which I think the kennel rule already takes care of. There's a lot of overlap there. Yes. So, back to what Jim said, is it even worth having in there? Do we even bother with it? Because the kennel rules are maybe sufficient for what we're talking about. And and the reason I've added it as a on the no list is because animal boarding is a term specifically listed as a use. Mhm. In the uh MU3. It's only zoning district. Yeah, I know this is pedantic, but that's me. Uh, I'm just wondering is the word household maybe too restrictive if we just say pet, you know, because some people have very strange pets and you know, they might not be what most of us would think of as a household pet, but they may have them. Well, I think state law takes care of Well, for exotics. Yeah. Okay. So, I don't think that's Yeah. And there's nothing that's going to prevent somebody from having 10 hamsters, you know? I mean, horse snakes. Don't know why they would want them, but that's another story. Stephanie's husband is watching. Just He's really making sure that I'm not going to have 10 hamsters in my house. Well, you know, maybe a 10 hamster wheel could power the house. Imagine having one hamster in my sustainability. Sorry. I I I don't I don't have that. I don't have the answer. It doesn't feel like I like I have resolved this in my own mind. Well, the good news is there's no urgency to act on this tonight. If you want to tackle it one more time, but be nice if we could try to move it along. But can we table this one portion? Well, if we're going to bring it back, we'll bring the whole thing. Bring the whole thing back. Yeah. And it could be a short discussion, but I'm open to some direction because yes, the kennel rules, the animal boarding, animal shelters. What we don't want is someone taking in 10 dogs, have a shelter type situation in their home. Now, the kennel rules would certainly kick in. Yeah. Uh and we could not even list animal boarding there as as a nogo, but because we should pull it out as of out of the permitted uses and out of the definitions and such then, too. If we're not going to address it, then we're just not going to address it, right? Cuz everything else that's on here I don't have a problem with whatsoever on your updates. Then again, if you're getting closer, if animal boarding is in the definitions, and if it's a permitted use in other zonings, it's only a conditional use in one district, conditional use in one district, leave it alone. Don't put it in here. And that's because what we've defined then is here's where you can do that. ICUP. We don't need to we don't need to tell them you can't do it elsewhere because here's where you can do it. Yes. Well, they could have a really long list of things we can't do. And I think the kennel rules apply otherwise. Yeah. They apply everywhere. So I I think you could just strike it. We'll strike it. I like it. Any disagreement with that? I think that's a good way to handle it. Makes sense. on that. I I have a question to clarify. So E for the level three, is that how it it's been read before? Like is that how it was worded before or were those the o the occupations under that? Yeah, the well the first one said family daycare. Well, but the rest particularly the trades ones. Yeah, we had Well, the only thing we added was electrical. Okay. All the other trades are the exact same language, but that's the way the language has always read. Yes. Okay. All right. We have a lot of trades people in our town. Yeah, sure. Well, and and I don't know, but I think there's there's a difference also. Like for instance, if I'm an electrician and I work for Joe's electric electronics or electrical, sure, but there's a lot of independence, right? Then then that doesn't even count because it's not my business. Right. Right. If I run my business out of my house, then that's what we're talking about, right? I get that. Yep. Yep. And we do have a lot of that in our in our town. So, with the striking of animal boarding or just completely removing, not striking, are there any other concerns, items, or should we consider a motion to recommend? So approval with the changes I handed out. Let me ask you a question. So having worked in the trades, having worked on HVAC, having all that kind of stuff, what what's your what's your thoughts on that approach? Thinking about the trades, electrical, plumbing, heating, what's your thoughts on that? seems like we have a lot of concern about animals and I get that but we have a lot of people that this is their living and I don't want to put barriers to people trying to make a living and so if uh if someone's being obnoxious in their you know equipment and doing that I get it and that's how like how is this even enforced? It's enforced when someone complains. Exactly. And someone goes to this, you know, to them and they brush them off the Dairy Queen, you know, then it gets brought up. And so, um, I I think that that is there's other ordinances that cover that kind of stuff for noise, quiet time, you know, that that kind of stuff and and eyes. So anyway, I I want to make sure that people can still work and not throw because a lot of people that don't have their own business don't realize the amount of work that goes into to having a small business. So is it helpful to have the business types listed because they just say could include may include is not limited to. Um is it helpful to have them there or does it cause more conf like that kind of verbage is to give freedom to Right. It is it absolutely um my experience is it if you don't list a few examples then okay that's it's helpful to have a few examples. Yeah, I mean that's all I wanted to know. Is it helpful or are they causing more problems due to like this like potential issue for people who are self-employed and are building trades or electricians? Building trades covers a lot of stuff, right? Um that covers them like is that listing them there instead of leaving it open to interpretation? And that's why right below that we have the whole the determination. Absolutely. It'll let the staff answer then they can appeal it and Sure. Thank you. Okay. So, um if we will entertain a motion, it will be to recommend to council to um to approve this amending the ordinance as described, including the handwritten additional notes that were made based on public comment and crossing out animal boarding. crossing out animal boarding from whatever numbered item this is on page three. Also crossing out the inhome daycare and also crossing out the inhome family daycare. Yep. And are we moving cottage food to two and moving cottage food to two? Yeah, that was level two. Sorry, it's a little arrow on my mouse. It's okay. Just want to make sure it was in there. Okay. So, that's just to be clear because they will have customers coming to them because they not allowed to ship potentially. Yes. Yeah. Now, if they produce food and are only taking it to farmers markets or elsewhere and don't have customers coming to them and it doesn't even apply. Yeah. I I don't want to know about it, frankly. Yeah. Doesn't matter. And the neighbors probably won't care. But if they want to have customers coming to the home, Yeah. then that makes them a level two. Yeah. And one more clarification, level one and level twos, they don't need conditional you use permits. Is that correct? Or an interim use permit. Level one doesn't need any approval by the city. Level two doesn't either. Or do they? Home occupation permit. Yeah, it's an administrative permit. Is that different than an interim use permit? Yes. Administrative would be just a staff review where the interim use permit goes through plan commission review and city council approval similar to a conditional use permit. Why are those why are the trades basically it's all trade level things compared to level two? Why why is level three why are the trades in level three and required to get a different permit there? It's kind of listed there in the words but those in my opinion I think the way the ordinance has been have the potential to have more negative impacts on neighbors than those listed in level two. Gotcha. With noise and equipment and Gotcha. physical presence, all that. Yes. Gotcha. So, I think I've got the changes. I would entertain a motion to recommend this to council. Yeah. with the as you described with the descriptions that we've put forth which I think are now recorded for posterity forever and ever. I'll move to recommend it to council with the changes we made. Motion from Commissioner Weise. Is there a second? I will second. Second from Commissioner Gadboy. I think we've discussed this one adequately. Let's vote. All in favor say I. I. I. and opposed. Nay. Nay from Commissioner Alvarez. Yep. Okay. It may get on the council on the 15th. So, see how tomorrow goes. Okay. That's There's a lot of things on going on the agenda, but it was it was good work. Thank you all. Yeah. Indeed. Thanks for all the input. That was a lot of work. Thank you. All right. Try to do it correctly the first time. We don't have any other business. So, uh, let's go down the list and see if we have any kind of reports or things to mention. Not for me. Sorry. On the end. Nothing from me. I I would just ask um regarding the um Mr. Taylor's um report comments. Yeah. Um, is there what would be the appropriate time to talk about that? I mean, I some of this stuff isn't really things that the planning commission would be involved. I think we need to bring that to staff. Okay. For sure. Yeah. Um, outside this meeting. Yes. Yeah. Okay. And there's I don't know if he knew that you're the planning commissioner, not the city council. Yeah. Yeah. Which is a thing. and his complaints have been noted by staff. He was in city hall earlier today. Uh and so staff is aware of it and I guess I'll leave it at that that staff will be following up needed. Okay. Thank you. Commissioner Alvarez, do you have anything? No, sir. No, sir. Go down the list. I wish I had something really important and really interesting. The only thing I would say is take a look at city newsletter and stuff. There's a lot of different things going on during the summer. We're getting a little snowman again that we little snowman you can decorate. There's little little bits and pieces of things going on all over my wife things like that. So, make sure you take a look at that and squeeze in some of it if you can. Community center. Yes, there are. Nice. Yes. Um there will certainly be discussion at the council meeting. So I would recommend since our uh council liaison is not present tonight, I would recommend um attending some council meetings in the near future. Um particularly with regard to the community center and and to that point, the next council meeting is next Tuesday. Coming Tuesday, right? The 15th. Yeah. Then the first meeting in August they're not having because that's national night out. Okay. So then the next meeting will be next meeting second one in August. Second one in August. Okay. So those are the next two. You should have the council meeting at Howy Park or something. You know, let let everybody see it go. I'm sure they're going to be making the rounds like they always do. All right. Uh can I have a motion to adjourn? Wait. Oh no. Did you I don't think you hit the rest of the commission. I did. Oh, he started over there. Started there. They all said no. Oh, fine. I had a couple of quick things. Okay. Thank you. So, as I said during the earlier presentation, the comp plan and zoning ordinance that we talked about for that area, that will be on next week with the council. Uh, in part because the one lot on the west end that's vacant here, get that map. The city owns this lot here. Yep. And there's interest in another student built housing house going there. And we we started looking at this six, eight weeks ago, the light bulb went off said we can't issue a building permit for that because the zoning is not right. That was part of the reason for this about that. And then it it said, "Well, if we're going to study it, that's and so that's in the works." Um, in fact, it's been surveyed. So, if you come by there, you might see surveys. It's that it's that one northeast, that lot, that trapezoidal lot. This one or this one? Which one is it? The one where your cursor is? Yeah, that one. So we're hoping maybe even by fall to have a house underway there. Okay. Uh and so so that was part of the reason for this and just it just didn't make sense. But here we anyway council I'm sure will approve that. And uh again the home occupation orders may or may not be on the 15th otherwise it'll be in August uh coming up for the meeting on August 7th. I finally got comments back from the city attorney on the subdivision ordinance update. So, we'll get to go through another ordinance and uh work on that. I may have some more thoughts on the downtown design manual. And there's I know in the work plan there were some other zoning code amendments that haven't been talked about. I haven't done a deep dive on them. One I know for sure, for example, is are things like window wells for egress windows and handicap accessible ramps, should they be required to meet setbacks or not? The code isn't real clear in that. My opinion, especially the handicap ramps on the front of a house should not have to meet the setback because how on an existing house how are you going to put a ramp in? So the code does the code isn't clear on that. I think we need to call that out. Mhm. I my initial thought is with a caveat that it cannot be covered. It cannot because if you cover it, it's almost like a porch and then you're more in the front yard, right? That so the little cleanup things like that that my staff is aware of that I think are on the list. So we'll be very interested to hear your on window wells. So there's things like that are brewing. uh Cowan School, the school district 622, that's the one up on Margaret. They're getting ready to submit plans for a big addition and remodeling project there. Uh they need more room. They're at 400 students, so they're going to go to 600 students. So, that'll be coming through with a conditional use permit and design review and those kind of things. I don't think it'll be on that August 7th meeting because I haven't got the application yet, but we've had a couple of meetings about it. So we can look forward to that. Yeah, the community center that's brewing and more to come. So yes, pay attention to that. Uh I think that's all I have. I'll just say that I hope that they do a nicer job with the student housing, the student built housing than those darn duplexes we allowed over on 17th because they're so big. They are so big and they are so ugly because all they are is a double wide garage door and an entry door and they don't look anything at all like any of the houses in the rest of the area. But I'll admit that, you know, I didn't catch that when I was looking at the plans. Same. They they did okay on the last one they're doing though on on that little lot by right down by Webster. Yeah, that one's pretty nice. Is it? Oh, the student built stuff is That's what he was saying that the student build ones are talking about compared to compared to that those duplexes. You mean you don't want to look at 200 2,000 square feet of roof as I do. I get to look at it every day. It's so beautiful. I love it so much. My my thought is, you know, they they have no front view from those. They're the only houses on the street that have no front view unless you like looking out of from inside your garage. Yeah, agreed. They're not exactly peeling to the curb. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, I take blame in part for not having kept caught that when I looked at the plans that they submitted to us. So, okay. Motion to adjurnn. I'll make a motion to adjurnn. Commissioner Rothy, I will second. Second from Commissioner Alvarez. All in favor say I. I. I. And now that we're adjourned, I will say that it amuses me greatly that Mr. Tim Taylor wants to build a