e e e e e e e e e order at 6:30 the city of North St Paul Planning Commission regular meeting of October 3rd 2024 and uh if you would do roll call that would be wonderful commissioner wise here commissioner Alvarez here uh commissioner C burbach is uh absent uh commissioner Gad booy here commissioner muick present and commissioner uh rothy is also absent and chair biss uh present uh also present this evening uh are uh Jason nordby city council liaison and Riley Grahams the community development director excellent thank you next item on the agenda is to adopt the agenda which is uh pretty short tonight uh one primary item um does anybody have any they want to add to subtract from or otherwise change otherwise I'll entertain a motion to approve the agenda as written I'll move to approve the agenda for tonight a second that was a motion from commissioner wise a second from commissioner miick all in favor say I I is unanimous um then um hopefully you've all had a chance to review the meeting minutes from September 5th regular meeting um I would entertain a motion for approval of the September 5th meeting minutes unless anybody has anything to modify I'll make that motion uh motion from commissioner Gad booy second I'll second second from commissioner Alvarez all in favor say I I I we are good with that the meeting is now open to the public for items not on the agenda there are few members of the public here if there's anything you want to speak on not on the agenda um the floor is open for that looks like that is not um happening so we are down to the public hearing so if we could have the staff report absolutely thank you uh so tonight we are um holding a public hearing for a conditional use permit application at 2586 7th Avenue East uh the city uh did receive a a conditional use permit application from the building owner and tenant uh I think it's Jas or Jarvis Court properties LLC and El Cordia Care LLC respectively for a parcel located on the corner of 7th Avenue East and Charles Street North the applicant proposes to open El Cordia Care at Kel's uh Kendall's Corner uh which operates as a day Support Facility for younger adults with disabilities all under the age of 65 under Minnesota's Home and Community Based Services Medicare uh Medicaid waiver programs um as well as uh Employment Services this is a daytime program in which adults with disabilities will come to their location for up to 6 hours a day the applicant proposes to serve a demographic of uh demograph demographic of adults with disab disabilities for example those um with developmental disability waivers by providing life skills training enrichment programs and activities and Community integration through trips into the community uh they would also provide Employment Services uh which prepare individuals for work and support uh for them entering the workforce course uh life skills training would include communication Community Access Independent Living money management problem solving and conflict resolution self-care and social socialization uh enrichment activities would include arts and crafts exercise and music therapy uh the parcel uh in question is a 0.86 acre uh size uh parcel is located in the M1 downtown mixed use uh zoning district there are several adjacent properties most of which are um non-residential there are some residential uses in the nearby area but most are commercial properties um the subject property is located uh as I mentioned in the M1 District um in city code 154 appendix a table 3 does allow for it's called daycare uh facilities daycare sometimes gets confused with child care uh in this case it would not be uh serving 13 persons or more as a conditional use uh daycare facilities are allowed as a conditional use in this District um so section like I mentioned section code 15404 F uh when it comes to conditional use permits um may be issued for a use that uh may be allowed in a particular zoning district U provided that the uh Planning Commission and then the city council finds that the use is compatible with the district's character uh and um uh does not overly burden um anything else in the in the local area um after some review uh we do find that the proposed use is anticipated to be suitable within the zoning district and there are other similar uses um in zoning districts nearby um there is a a whole host uh in your packet this evening of um other considerations that the Planning Commission should consider and and eventually the city council uh we listed them uh in in your packet this evening we have found that all of the um conditions uh or the proposed use actually would comply with all of these standards and conditions uh we are not anticipating any issues as a result um the uh final thing is that uh I I don't know if the applicants are here yes okay good so um they can help answer any questions that the Planning Commission may have um but otherwise the um the the Planning Commission should open the public hearing and allow uh any interested uh individuals from the public to make all right are there any um Commissioners uh have any comments or questions about the staff report I think I have one um related to the the aerial view image in your report the rectangular parking area that's city-owned am I understanding that correctly cuz there's the building and then there's the rectangle down south of it yeah there's there's a it's it's an address as label of zero Charles Street north um that is also owned by the same entity oh it is yes the the zero the zero what about the yellow rectangle that S 2 yeah 2586 is those two those two properties it's it's the main building and then further south down Charles is a but there's a gap in between zero that zero is the gap that also is owned by the same okay that's what I was thinking that's not parking per se that's surface area surface area loading and unloading yeaha okay cuz there's a trash enclosure there and other things I could I couldn't tell you why the the parcel is uh separated into two right there I I don't have that history but that is yeah it kind of feels like it all should be one together together but don't know don't know how the ownership works um that was I think the only question I had the only one I have at this point is the uh letter from the concerned resident yeah was that received before staff looked you I guess did staff take that into consideration or was that received after staff looked at the situation so that staff did uh completed their report and then um after we sent out the public hearing notice that's when we got that that letter and and that app the um the person who owns that property is is adjacent to this parcel okay and we can there's certainly room for discussion after public hearing so yeah with that I would um ask if the applicants have anything they would wish to add for discussion okay in that case I would open the public hearing uh at 6:38 make it 6:39 because there goes the clock so if anyone from the public would wish to speak on the topic and if not you would am I you are very welcome yeah please step forward um state your name and address and so you're on the mic that way we don't lose you good evening everyone Nathan pesky 2657 5th Avenue I apologize I couldn't pull up your report I was just wondering what are the the hours of this facility and the number of people that are going to be there during the day which sounds like a good question for the applicant [Laughter] my name is Dawson I live at 2300 uh Central Avenue Northeast Minneapolis uh so the the building hours are from 6:00 a.m. to 6 P p.m. I believe that's correct um was it 7 AM 7: a. to 6 p.m. so program hours would run from 7:00 a.m. till approximately 4 p.m. uh and the capacity in terms of the number of adults being served is 35 so consider 35 as a maximum plus a certain number of Staff potentially 15 20 staff at Max maximum um so all in all we're looking at 50 to 60 people on site um and everybody would be off site by 6 p.m. and if I could just ask a follow-up question maybe directed to the attorney or someone up here um there's all kinds of large things that are going on in in downtown what makes this require conditional use permit um with a meeting whereas all that is this different than that or is this just a routine thing for business in downtown can you address that that yeah so um conditional use permits are related to the specific use of a property um and usually those uses tend to have uh such as this uh where you have uh a number of individuals um in in one spot at one time um it looks at other things like traffic control traffic flow um and and also if there's any issues related to the use to the surrounding properties so that's that's why they're they're labeled as conditional uses which means that you have to come before the city council or Planning Commission and city council to get approval before you can enter into that business and and is this larger than some of the other things downtown or what what makes this unusual uh it's I I wouldn't call it anything unusual I I wouldn't use that word I would just say that uh just the use um with the requirements of of vehicles coming and going people being dropped off and just the sheer number of people that are going to be at the site very good thank you very much mhm well that being the case and no other public present I will close a public hearing at 6:42 so questions or concerns I think um Cameron you you brought up the the letter right I do have a concern based on the letter the language that was in it and I I definitely understand you know whoever wrote the letter is coming at it from their own point of view and they may it may or may not be particularly accurate I'm just trying to get a feel for the situation uh it states or at least it sounds like it's stating that everybody that's coming to use the facility is in their own transport vehicle is that the situation or are we do you have uh one vehicle serving mult I shouldn't say just one vehicle but do mult do vehicles serve multiple uh clients because that will make a bit of a difference about how busy that side streak gets sure so first thing to point out is that the activity that they're referring to has nothing to do with Al Cordia care um because we don't occupy that space yet um so that's one thing to point out another thing that I would mention is that most of the individuals who are going to be attending this site for programming uh do not provide their own transportation they are either they either have transportation provided by the program or use other publicly available services like metr Mobility so we don't expect to have 60 people driving every day to this site um staff would likely be using their own transportation for those that have it uh and then there would be some pickup and drop off um but again to to the to the letter that was submitted um we haven't been occupying that space yet so anything that they have to say doesn't really pertain to anything we've about our program no I was just more concerned with how much it might be adding to the impact so if it's not obviously if it's I shouldn't say Obviously but I know from my own knowledge if it's metrom Mobility those drivers are going to drop and drop and roll as quickly as they can Soh I I think that the letter that was part of the packet is is important for us to consider um only from the perspective of are there conditions that we should add to our recommendation that would help to alleviate any potential for problems like that and sounds to me like traffic running you know idling Vehicles things like that yeah okay I can I can understand how that could potentially be objectionable um is it something that we can put conditions on absolutely um um you know internally in the Community Development Department we had we had talked about um any requirements relating to any pickup and loading and unloading of of individuals um off of the public Street you know they they have obviously um that property labeled zero uh and then also the uh parking lot to the South should be plenty of ample space to get off the street to you know reduce any potential backups um on street so that's that's something that I think the Planning Commission could entertain um you know idling of vehicles um what what is that definition it's going to happen in winter is that 10 minutes is that an hour I don't you know that's I don't think we can control that I I think it's hard enough it would be hard enough to control where they stop yeah yeah but I think it would be advisable to try to build in some some sort of encouragement to pull off the road and utilize that space that property property lot zero I think you could entertain a condition um of of approval that states something to the effect of uh passenger loading and unloading shall occur off of the public Street MH I don't think they would be doing that anyways but you put it in writing it's there well and Che on and there are there are parking spaces there for the existing functions um that are probably those diagonal spots are probably almost big enough sure would be adequate for loading conditions in other words at least pulling off of the drive lane although on the other hand Charles is a very wide Road at that point so um it's it's not that we're doing any kind of total blockage even if a car even if a vehicle stops in the lane it's not a total blockage of the road so could we possibly post the areas further away from that as like a no waiting zone between seven and seven or something like that uh or make it perhaps a uh resident parking only for a block or so I'm just trying to think of ways that we could try to keep the waiting Vehicles away from those Residential Properties uh somehow or another I I would say you know provided that any transport vehicle whether it's a Metro Mobility or a van you know I'm thinking like a 15 passenger van something like that you know I I think they could adequately pull into those diagonal spaces allow passengers to either enter or exit the vehicle and back up without any issues I I don't see a a need to to do any sort of signage um like I said I I think you know at most you could probably just put put a condition of approval in there that states unloading loading and unloading of of passengers shall occur off the public Street I think that covers Us pretty good is the park diagonal parking considered on the public Street however it's it's public parking it's public parking it's not in the public Street not in the street that's that's the delineation right the only thing I'm thinking of is in terms of you know somebody that's coming for a pickup uh and you know if they get there and they have to sit there and wait for 15 or 30 minutes for the individual to get out front because of you know classes or appointments or whatever that that was the only thing I was thinking of is try to cut that possibility down somewhat and at that point then I would encourage the the program owners to encourage the drivers to pull into this off the street what I would say and there's plenty of space there I think absolutely and that's that's kind of where I was thinking that I mean these aren't your own transportation vehicles that you guys control right so um I think we could say exactly what you just said we could encourage it but there's only so much you can do if it's metrom Mobility right you don't have control over what they do necessarily but and and to be fair if it's causing an issue you know somebody's going to complain about it and Police Department police department will go out there and assess the situation right it would get taken care of yeah yeah that's a nice thing is is only what about a 30 second drive from the police department so right so program provided transportation is a service that'll cyare will offer it would be up to the person receiving services to work with their care team to assess what their best transportation solution is for them just one thing I would like to just add here just so that it's also on people's minds is that we are dealing with people with disabilities so I would just encourage you in any decisions that you make uh ensuring that you're also upholding the rights of people with disabilities to have that sort of Greater assistance to be able to access the building access the facility thank you absolutely I I think um I'd like there to be a [Music] condition added in for our recommendation but um but I'd like it I'd like to make sure that we're acknowledging the fact well certainly what what he just mentioned um but also the fact that it's an operational thing not necessarily under the control of this user Yep this occupant so there there's a lot of variables there that we don't necessarily control but to to have an to include something that is an encouragement and I think your your comment about not unloading on the street on the active Street Lanes I think is not loading and unloading that there is fine and it should be very doable without without hindering the operation so that's what I'd like to see sorry I just was going to ask what what was your intended like routine how how did you see loading and unloading happening is it if we say you know loading on and off the street is an issue is that was that something you were intending to do or not necessarily so as you pointed out um limited control that accordia has over what metr Mobility does if clients are utilizing that option or being dropped off by family members or what have you um from aloria Care's perspective I think we would be more than willing uh and able to utilize that angled parking when available um would wouldn't want to be hamstrung in a situation where we're going to get the cops called if for whatever reason there was not enough room maybe snow piled up in the the winter um to have loading and unloading uh be accessible I would also say that uh accordia care is an organization that Prides itself on respect for its neighbors and building relationships um and maintaining positive relationships so uh knowing that that's a concern and that there has been a preference expressed to not have cars idling uh near some nearby houses um we would definitely keep that in mind and do our best to be as discreet as possible great thank you so I'm looking at the Google maps of this area and I see van van unloading section on Seventh Avenue and I'll see van unloading um one on Charles is there any if if it becomes congested with vans that need to unload people with Mobility AIDS is there any possibility of in giving another van unloading spot I I think that is absolutely a possibility to add additional handicap parking stall we talking a lot more people that are coming into this building so yeah that's certain you know then we can work with the applicant as you know if we're noticing that it is an issue we can certainly stripe more yeah yeah just again just to get them off of the of the drive AIS that's kind of the whole point yeah I'm not I'm not anticipating that you know a vehicle is going to pull up there and sit in the drive aisle for 30 minutes I people don't do that hopefully not going to work I would recommend that staff check with metr mobility and see what directions they give their drivers because the last thing we want to do is to do this with the predicate that they're going to drop in the parking lot and then later we find that Metro Mobility doesn't allow their drivers to do that we can certainly follow up with them yep another good reason to give more handicap stalls potentially right yeah yeah yeah I'd like I'd like there to be a condition but I'd like it to be as flexible as possible I guess it's the way I'd like to put it and I think if you if you set the condition in a sense of loading and unloading shall Ur off of the public Street drive lane or drive aisle yeah yeah I think if you do you specifically call the drive aisle then I think they pull into the parking stalls they can pull into the parking lot or the UN I mean there's other ways we can besides it it's a it's a it's a directive that okay somebody might not follow that in every circumstance in every on every winter day but in general at least it's there it's present y there's an enforcable thing if an enforcement needs to be done absolutely that does also bring up a corollary that the city needs to think about in that uh if we're going to ask them to load and unload in that parking lot and it is a city parking lot that needs to be one of the first things plowed in the winter time it is not a city parking it's not it's not a city park okay I thought you said that it was no it's it's owned by the same entity oh okay all right my my mistake but I I do know that the Public Works does work to plow um public parking stalls especially on those busy streets it's one of the first things they do okay MH yeah with an active business like that they'll yeah they'll get down there yep and they usually do that you know over in the overnight hours so that come 7: a.m. when when they're ready and open yeah it should be clear unless it's actively snowing right right well I think I'm prepared to entertain a motion to proceed with the recommended um the recommended resolution for the city council with the one condition that was spoken I I would like to add one comment um if if I may um I I believe um what they said is accurate um that the problems that were described in the letter um predate them even thinking about this as a city council Le leis on WE I've also um had the residents come um complain about this area too one of the solutions I would like to offer not as a Amendment or a condition to them um but a as a possible solution um is offer the residents on the east side of Charles um um what was talked about um from 7: a.m. to 6:00 p.m. residential parking only by permit and like say not a conditioned upon them because this is existing currently but as as a recommendation possibly to the city council and this has somewhat been talked about to approve this but to not exasperate an existing issue that they're not adding to mhm to to change that parking on the right side but I don't believe it's fair to put that as a condition upon them agreed I I would suggest that staff could interact with those residents specifically and come up with a solution that what would help you know that kind of have that kind include eth Street on eth Avenue on that too because they suddenly can't park on Charles they might well I'll go ahead and make the motion all right motion from commissioner is there a second and that I should I should specify that is given both the condition and the recommendation yes as part of this motion yeah I'll second second from commissioner Weiss um any further discussion if not all in favor say I I I I any Nays no n we are good you know we have a agenda item for commission business action items and recommendations and it's blank which means it's time for reports from Commissioners do Commissioners have anything to report I'll start with you Mr Muk uh Yes actually I do have something to report and I'm not sure City staff is aware of this or not but the uh Metro Transit has released their expansion plan program for I think the next 5 years one of the things that they have on their plan is discontinuing the 64 route through North St Paul and replacing that with a bus that will operate from Maplewood Mall through North St Paul and terminate down at the larpenter shopping center which would mean that everybody from North St Paul if they want to go into town would have to change and uh I think that that's something that the city I'd recommend the city take a stand against that change and in favor of uh saying that if they're going to keep the 64 route which they need to uh that it would be better for it to operate through North St Paul and to get rid of the other stem that covers the White Bear Avenue because the 54 operates on that segment going down downtown anyway so what you would have under their plan you'd have an express bus to downtown and a local bus to downtown basically operating over the same route except for a few streets within the city and we would have to change uh and you know changing buses is not a big deal but if it's in the middle of of winter and you know it's 20 degrees below outside uh like I say I just wanted to bring that out that that was in in their plan it doesn't have a deadline as to when that's going to happen but there it's the plan is out there for public comment now public comment okay well thank you for bringing that up that's very important and I had not seen that so thank you good I don't have anything tonight okay any other reports well that's a good one so I don't have anything either I would like to add one thing um I would like to encourage everyone to inform themselves on who they choose to vote for um there are two open city council seats one of the ways you can choose to do that is um one of our wonderful residents is hosting a get to know the people who are running for city council at that is hosted at the American Legion on October 24th at 6 PM is that being sent out or will it be sent out to in the city newsletter I I think it might already be in there it's not technically a City Event so I don't know I don't know if the person fairly certain we have it in there okay I was going to say I thought I'd seen something about it get together but I just wasn't sure if it was the same one I get it through my social secretary so um I get it either through the newsletter or through Facebook because she's connected with all the Facebook uh local Facebook groups so I know it has been posted on the friends of North St Paul Facebook group yes that may been where I saw it so very good very good reminder thank you that's the only one that I know of as far as getting to know the res the uh c as far as I know of right now um there are three candidates for two seats corre there are three candidates for two seats okay um yes have they put out any sort of a uh documentation as to where they stand on different issues that is the choice of every individual running um I hesitate to comment on that in a public forum I seem to recall I trying to remember if I had seen a website or anything like that that was developed for any of them but I don't I don't think so are there any candidates again I'm sorry I'm I'm newer to North St Paul are there candidate forums run by any Civic organizations I know in my previous city um uh the league of Minnesota sorry the League of Women Voters um did conducted a candidate for each year or each election cycle is there anything like that around the person organizing this at the legion has been doing this for years um uh she she is and if I get this wrong I apologize but she has had of the women's auxiliary okay the legion I believe okay yeah um and then traditionally the candidates also speak at the North St Paul Business Association I don't know if that event happened this year um I apologize I don't have that information but traditionally those are the two organized information gathering sessions in the city of North St Paul I don't think it has at the business at the North St Paul Business assciation I haven't made the last couple but I I didn't my wife's in it too and she didn't mention that okay I can double check with her the League of Women Voters did do a forum with this school board okay candidates and I'm not sure if that is up on YouTube or not but it was very informative that would be good to to look up okay all right good point about getting informed though yeah very much so getting to the home stretch with that being I think all of our business I would entertain a motion to adjourn I will make that motion uh motion to adjourn from commissioner Gad booy second I'll second it second from commissioner Alvarez all in favor say I I