e e e something no oh I guess your packet but we will call the meeting to order at 6:30 this is the September 5th Planning Commission meeting the Planning Commission of North St Paul um can we have staff do a roll call please absolutely uh commissioner wise here commissioner Alvarez here commissioner Kane burbeck here commissioner Gad booy here commissioner muick here commissioner rothy here and chair lease here thank you and we have with us city council liaison Mr nordby here yes indeed that was on my next next next [Laughter] TI okay um with that we have a fairly short agenda tonight so we'll slam through it um do anybody have anything to add or subtract or change on the agenda and if not I'd entertain a motion to approve it move to approve the agenda I'll second motion from commissioner wise second from commissioner Roy all in favor say I I that is unanimous um meeting minutes from August 1 Let's approve the meeting minutes um anybody have comments I have one um it's on page six of the packet the public hearing um comments from Mr SCH I believe it's the last sentence I believe the word not is in the sentence twice not double negatives okay I got you okay we will make that change any other comments if not I will entertain a motion to approve the August 1st Planning Commission meeting minutes I'll make a motion to approve it a motion from commissioner rothy a second I'll second second from commissioner Weiss all in favor say I I the meeting is open to the public I do not see any public present pretty quiet meeting [Laughter] tonight so I don't think we'll be hearing from the public tonight we do not any have any public hearings on the agenda we have a commission business to discuss the Margaret Street Commons RFP with that um Mr Grahams would you present absolutely so um thank you first and foremost um at our last meeting in August we uh briefly discussed um an opportunity before us to uh look at a future Redevelopment uh area commonly called Mar uh Margaret Street common site which is located right across the street from us and um I I had mentioned that uh you know we we had some interest from a couple local developers which is always a great sign uh but kind of seeing some of that interest it's a good idea to go through an RFP process so that it's transparent Fair everybody has a shot at it all that kind of stuff um so I mentioned that uh at our uh September meeting I would come back with a draft RFB that's where we are here this evening um so the the property in question has um again across the street has lots of uh advantages um a lot of close proximity to a lot of different uh great uh features including obviously police and fire right across the street it's very close to uh North St Paul High School um it's walkable downtown sever bars and restaurants nearby parks uh other amenities also it's located on a public transit uh uh line which is always um really really good and uh also has obviously great access to Regional highways um the site is a former uh home of two dental offices uh one of the buildings still stands the other was demolished um the site is empty of any current use currently um the existing structure was reviewed in 2022 uh and deemed uh substandard uh per Minnesota statute 46974 subdivision 10 this is a good thing uh helps us with future um ability to finance any particular project uh with uh with any uh future developer so that that is a good thing um we did conduct a phase one environmental report back in 2019 and the report did recognize um three um what are called Rec's recognize environmental conditions uh the the previous Dental uses um and also there was u a a long former uh dry cleaning operation and then another dry cleaning operation that's was actually adjacent to that property obviously dry cleaning is not uh the best environmental uses and um so that that phase one did uh note that they were uh likely contributed to those re se's at that location um otherwise this the site is served by uh North St Paul utilities um one interesting uh thing though with the with that site there is a natural gas pipeline and overhead power electrical lines uh that run north south but additionally there's a 48 in uh public storm sewer line along the west side um that will likely um impact some of the design aspects so that is something that uh I was I made sure to be very frontal in the RFP so that developers are aware of that and usually if if we get um developers interested they're going to reach out to us anyways and and gain more information because those are things that they need to know about um the site is currently zoned uh mu1 which is downtown mixed use um which permits a sort of a wide range of commercial and and residential uses uh I listed what those are here I don't think I need to go over those uh two in detail um the in 2022 the city did conduct a um a hous assessment by Maxfield uh and that assessment indicated that the city could accommodate uh roughly 955 new housing units in the next uh 5 to six years um which is a combination of ownership and Rental but also uh potentially 369 units for uh senior specific housing so they believe that the demand is there so this this is going to try to drive that bus of what kind of uses um we think are going to be appropriate at that site um in the downtown Redevelopment master plan um this area calls for continued growth obviously in the downtown um area and continued increase demand for services such as retail and restaurants um we are hoping um to have uh retail and or service other service uses at the street level with uh upper floors uh for uh housing that is uh typically you know one of those classic mixed use developments that we would like to see in this area um but again you know aot lot of a lot of what developers are going to come forward with is going to be Market driven what what they feel that they can actually sell right so uh we will be sure to uh connect with any developers on uh on that level um but again we're we're looking for pedestrian friendly character small you know we're we're designing it for a a urban downtown environment um and again adequate parking is going to be a a big thing especially um under building parking whenever possible so that'll be uh probably a major component as well um I did throw together just real rough dates uh for some of the uh proposal requirements as outlined all of them are movable this was just just to get you all thinking um sort of in one clear Direction about how and when this would all happen uh but essentially um you know we're looking for the Planning Commission to review the draft tonight um I'll make any edits uh that the commission has and then we'll bring it to the city council for approve approval to post um on the 17th of September we'll post at the very next day uh and then we're looking for submissions due um right around the first of the year sometime we got major holidays coming up obviously towards the end of the year that kind of complicates things so longer time frame is always better um and it allows developers really to dig in and get some more information and develop a cohesive uh plan uh but then after that you know we'll take uh the first part of you know roughly the first quarter um staff will review any um submissions that we receive uh my thought would be I've typically in cities that I've worked for we we usually generate a um sort of Review Committee uh to kind of flesh out what what's good what's bad and then uh make a recommendation to the city council and typically we would have pres uh presentations to the city council um by developers that we that we uh like and and those uh projects that we think will work there uh and then eventually we'll select a developer to work with and Hope uh begin working towards development contract and all that kind of stuff so um the the RFP will be posted on the city's website and the league of Minnesota City's website that's where 99% of things that rfps are posted that developers will will look for um we could place an ad in the Minnesota Star Tribune it is Minnesota stune not the Minneapolis no yep it um start tribun if we want to um I I do know of the the finance and commerce mer industry website that I know a lot of developers often routinely look forward to we could post it there as well so um that's kind of the nuts and bolts of it uh happy to answer any questions uh on anything specific in the RFB this evening um I have a question is is there uh standard procedure that you know of with regard to our action not tonight it's just discussion tonight is just a discuss when it comes to evaluating developers and such is there any official action that the Planning Commission would take I I think every city is different naturally of course um what I typically have seen is um the Planning Commission will either set up a committee staff and you know two three not four CU then you have a quorum but um usually two or three members of the of the Planning Commission to help review everything um at at that point you know you would select three four of them or how many ever you think would be a viable product they would come to the Planning Commission present um present their their plan for a development the Planning Commission would then typically select two three depending on what you know what they feel is necessary and then that would get forwarded to the city council for further presentations so we would would make a recommendation to the city council as to who the short list is I yes that's that's how I have seen it done in the that seems reasonable um Riley it and it's my understanding that if that's a process that takes place the scoring system that the small group would be used would have to be available to be made public once the decision is made correct okay um question about the site uh actually two things one is since there is the mention of the storm sewer MH um and there would be an easement associated with that do you think it would be make sense to show its approximate location on the aerial view I think that would be a good idea just a some kind of representation even if it's just a line of approximate Center yeah if you if you look at it's p if it's on the property line then the then the impact is more significant but if it's west of the site location boundary that you have on here yeah on page three of the of the RFP you can actually you know you can see that line that runs north oh that's the easement that's technically the easement okay but I can I can superimpose that onto what is page two yeah to give you a little bit better view yeah I think it would be the page two is just kind of give you the general site location but I can even if you even if you um use the lines that are on page three page three um and put a a little horizontal note yes or a vertical note that says um storm location or something like that certainly we'll do that or maybe color blue and yeah something that that identifies it yep it's just helpful I think for clarity um and then the other question I had is is there any consideration or would there be consideration of uh because it it seemed like there was some possibility that maybe there's an interface with the city parking lot that would there be potential for a shall we say a larger development utilizing some or all of that parking lot then accommodating parking in part of the development that sort of thing is is that a feasible option for a developer if they would be interested in doing it should we present it as an option it it says um the adjacent surface parking lot just west of the subjects that could be potentially incorporated into the yeah Redevelopment I mean there's there's a mention of it should it be more of a mention yeah I it's the only thing I'm asking up the that mention a little bit yeah sure well or could you even show it maybe as like a optional dash line cash area behind there or something like that it would be really nice if the site didn't get so skinny right there but um you know if it was if I was get serious about doing a development and I wanted it to be bigger um a negotiation with the adjacent parcel to do a little cut off of their Corner mhm would definitely be in order and then you know I'm not sure what happens with the um storm sewer easement but I'm just trying to open up what kind of opportunities might there be that that will create variables for developers to to be able to say hey well if we did it this way you know maybe it works better in their financial picture or something like that so um just being clear about what what kind of options there might be because if it if there's a possibility it's more than this rectangle then maybe it's yeah like like Cameron said maybe it's a dash line or something like that that well I just want to be clear on this are we talking about the the parking lot on the south side of that or are we talking about the parking area to the west of there South South okay what is the parking area to the west of there that's the school that's the school okay yep so is there any opportunity that they could take some of that property on that side as well I I asked that very same question of Public Works um the answer is potentially the problem is you still have that easement running right through it you still have the stor add you know even if if they were to purchase a slice of that property it's not you can construct anything over the top of that so that it really confines the site you know it and not that you can't not that you can't move a storm se but would be costly but you could cost associated with it obviously underground parking with that Storm sword what's that going to do from underground parking and what's that going to do from don't know yeah yeah so parking would typically you would have the building would be up against the the Margot Street in this case um access to the parking would be from the back and then there would be a it would it would be adjacent to that sewer line but it would have to stay to the east MH just our curiosity would the would the easement what I'm picturing in my mind is could they build like twin buildings and just have a grass area in between them and you know maybe they connect them with a couple of pedestrian Bridges or something like that would that kind of idea be possible anything is possible I'll put it that way got enough money yes there there's and that was going to follow it up with it depends on how much money they would like to spend and how much building would cost but yes yep so um can you explain what is the impacts of the environmental certainly so um with with the phase one showing let me pull up my I mean I guess I'm I'm curious what kind of um impacts that may have on a developer's interest yeah so um you know it it's it it there's good and bad right um the bad is that there are recognized environmental concerns that's bad um the good news is that opens up a Floodgate Of grant opportunities um at the state and federal level um so I think we would be be very much in play there and we the city staff would work in concert with a developer to apply for those and and get those um it depending on the level of contamination I've seen where you have to dig out every inch of dirt and then bring a new fill and drop it in or some sort of a vapor barrier I mean it really depends on what we're exactly we're talking here and how long it's been present there um you know I I've worked on projects before you know the typical one is a former gas station site you know where they have underground tanks they're there for years and years and years they leak and then you know of course it doesn't just stay right there it leaks all over the place naturally um and one of the projects that I worked on we had we had to remove dig out everything and and bring in all new fill and that was costly but we got grant money for it so um you know the the the former dry cleaner uses are concerning those aren't hazardous materials um but I I don't think that it would be anything that would preclude a development from happening here and it was just a phase one so yes and we have I think we have would if there was cleanup to be done there would have to be further more detailed soil borings and other a limited Phase 2 done what's there yep that stated in here yeah on page five sort of at the top the second paragraph uh we did complete that in 2019 oh yeah yeah okay so we we we do have that information it's it was a limited phase it wasn't a full but we have something okay but there's data yes that they can that they can that would be made available to any developer who's interested for sure of course on the other hand too that if they have to excavate to take uh contaminated soil out that gives them a head start on the Underground build their underground parking absolutely right yep I think out of all the projects I've worked on in the Twin Cities more than half have had a problem like this it's very common and it's especially in older communities yeah oh it's amazing how many dry cleaners there must have been because they're everywhere evidently and they just didn't care what they did with their disposable uh contaminants yeah just no throw it all back whatever but it's it's I would think any developer that's looking to do sort of a you know multif family mixed use development would have already dealt with that on absolutely projects absolutely I think um I think the RFP looks good I I would the one addition I would add in when you're talking about the the site context and the um uh the opportunities there um mentioned the Gateway Trail that's a huge it is in there oh is it it is yeah I can't remember where but it's here um right develop but it says blocks from the Gateway Trail which makes it seem like it's further away from the trail than it is yeah it's it's a block a block okay it's pretty much a block yeah might be a long block but it's pretty much a block I can I can I can change that but that's I'm sorry I didn't I'm totally Miss it's in there and I can't remember where well you might want to just go ahead and put like a slightly enlarged area map that shows like three or four blocks around good point that way you could Mark the trail and you could also show and and even that it's within walking distance to the lake yeah yeah I I mean I can I can certainly just that's a good idea I can I can add a little bit more to development opportunity for there's a lot of amenities in North maybe um yeah maybe an enlarge or a smaller scale plan would be in order page has a little more yeah the the cover the cover page has sort of an enlarged yeah kind of blown back a little bit further view because I I wanted to I wanted to show the high school I wanted to show the the trail and I purposely put a blue line on the on the trails a little bit maybe it's good enough yeah well I I would say focus it in a little bit more so that maybe you show the maybe so you the high school on the far western side and that would you know that would show enough of what's close byose by yep yeah yeah I think you would want to maybe catch mcnight because that shows the main I mean that's the main entrance exit off of 36 yeah I can I can play with that map a little bit yeah not a problem couple I don't know sure this is a good one I like the fact that you show both MC Knight and Division Street on that yes but maybe zoom in and do something that's that's uh maybe three layers like this one maybe enlarge it to by about 50% yep I can play with it something like that how long did it take you're looking you know September October November January how long did it take like the last developments that we have downtown here like like our our developers like just chopping at the bit to get and find these sorts of parcels at cities is that long like I don't know how long it takes are you going to end up with a dozen in four yeah months you're going end up with two I I think I think the I think the climate is a lot better than it was certainly two three years ago for sure um I you know at my previous City we we were going through a RFP process and I couldn't barely get one or two to respond to an opportunity just the financial climate was not there it's getting better and um I do know of a c couple developers that I've kind of like hey we may be having an opportunity here and they're very interested okay um and I sort of kind of also at the same time saying hey how's how's the climate how's the financial climate for them specifically and they said it's getting better um construction costs are still insane they are um we're hoping that'll get better in the next six you know who knows what's going to happen after the election um that's obviously a Big Driver of it but um I'm I'm hoping that by the time we go through this process and that's another reason why I wanted to push it past the first of the at least the first of the year to try to get a little bit better situation yeah okay I'm I look at that angle I wonder if that's enough time I I have no idea like so I'm just curious I think it's good that it's after the holidays yeah well because if people are really trying to put some information together and the holidays can can be that buffer zone honestly from mid Jan or uh mid November and on developers are usually working about two weeks the first two weeks of of yeah de that's it I mean they're they're basically offer Thanksgiving and then they're off for Christmas and New Year it's that's and and you know if we if we get to a point where you know maybe we don't have a lot of responses or ones that we're not really comfortable with we can always extend it it's we're not beholden to the dates that we set you know commissioner biss if I could ask two questions um I'd be grateful um the first one is what with this body when we redid the plat lines didn't we get rid of the triangle that's on page three the triangle um I think we talked about it it it's straight left of 2375 I remember talking about it I don't know if any official action was taken zero yep yep I I I I thought we voted on it in the council it we may have I mean this was sorry before my time but well and this it might it might be that this is an old old data the data Maybe hasn't been updated quite yet and then at that my second question was is although we call it a school to the West my understanding is that's private ownership and that person was willing had had interest in subdividing his lot to work on this whole thing but because it's private ownership we called it a school but I'd be it's it's a private school right I'd be concerned about indicating that that could be part of the scope unless we have permission from him well it could be part of the scope if the developer is prepared to negotiate that right I just didn't want to make it look like we were offering private land we don't have no obviously yeah can't do that have they been spoken to I I personally have not yet um but it's something that oh if I if I was a developer I'd at least have a conversation absolutely you're always looking to expand the you find out hey what what are our choices here yeah I mean cuz in the grand scheme of things this is a pretty small site I mean I'll be perfectly it's it is a small site so um you know and the developers that I've already kind of spoken to a little bit quietly about this they have already asked how can we make it bigger MH so they're aware of that y um the other thing that I would and and I don't think it means changing the our FP but when it comes time to evaluate developer proposals I would strongly suggest that we um encourage mixed use don't don't proceed with something that's residential only unless unless that's all you get yeah right you know then maybe you consider it but I I think the mixed use component is really important here well in all of our planning documents that I have seen they all say that they all say that Y and you put it in the RFP so I was appreciative of that I was going to say exactly the same thing um to add on to that you know there's there's always the little um I don't know what the right word is but um a way to get around it if you're developers you say it's live work excuse me um so it's actually a residential unit but hey you know you can start a little store there and M um and that seems to be what we've seen a lot of um and I think that's fine but the issue is that you know retail is really needed here at least you know sort of daily active retail um and and obviously nothing that we're going to decide because it's really what the market is going to want but um I think you know going to your point like it would be great to see actual retail not a sort of retail in a disguise or residential unit disguise sure um but yeah that's certainly up to the market to decide that but I had a really interesting discussion with uh the owner of sweedies at the last car show and we were talking about I was basically saying isn't it great all the new people coming into town and um she said it's great but we need more retail because we need more you know reason for people to come there are people here but we need more people reason for people to stay here so that's just what sort of made me think about that and it was a really good point because in my mind I always kind of think people you know make the momentum but you you have to have places for them to go too so yeah I've got family who use the Gateway all the time and they're really frustrated that there's nothing in North St Paul that really draws them off the trail to like get a cough there's nothing they would like to be able to get a quick bite to eat that's light they don't necessarily want to sit down restaurant or yeah little little quick Deli kind of a thing would be really nice a sandwich shop or something like that yeah or a coffee shop that's and crossing crossing the highway to go to the Dairy Queen is challenging more challenging than one wants to try want to take their life in in their hands to get an ice cream con that's very clean we get a sandwich shop down there maybe they could have a bicycle ride up window yeah MH uh just out of curiosity the the city parking lot there on the South Side would there be a possibility of doing some sort of a land swap or use swap so that you know we could give a developer the ability to develop the that lot as long as they exchanged parking uh in their facility for that I'll answer it the same way answer anything is possible mhm okay well let me rephrase that would that be looked upon with any degree of favor or do you think that that would be a really rough cell maybe that's the better way to put it but I'm thinking more term in terms of the city and not the developers standpoint if it's part of this we're requesting that they are looking to do underground parking where is the only entrance you can get underground parking on this parcel that's it right there because you're bound by Margaret you're bound by the driveway of the school you're bound by the on the west that's the only area you're going to be able to get under that building mhm so that's almost necessary that they have access to that yeah did because you got to dig it down it's an you know you have to have that ramp it was about a year ago we saw a proposal for this site of mixed e building and they had it set up like Riley said where the drive AIS was behind the building away from that easement and I think it only left you know it was a really narrow piece left over for the parking I think not if it was even two two lanes I don't it was even that but even at that it's going to be that easement runs all the way to the South edge of that a ramp takes up an incredible amount of space takes up a lot of space especially here in Minnesota you can't have it too steep you're going to have disasters in the winter times it's you got to use up a lot of space so I I I I suspect that any Developers what we speak to are going to are going to try to creatively figure out how they can make that work they're almost going to have to go in off that alley yeah yeah I know I've Got Friends in Woodbury that are in a condo with underground parking and they put in a ramp that was so steep they have to have uh uh a heated ramp during the winter time yeah in Minneapolis a lot of them are that way because they're so tight they're so tight yeah one one good thing is developers are really creative especially if they can get a little bit of land here a little bit of land here they can they're pretty creative folks so sorry The Architects are the developers need to be creative with the financing yeah there you go okay I I think I've got my list of edits I'll make uh any other any other edits I think you put a lot into this okay yeah I will update that and we'll have it on the council agenda for the 17th excellent okay well our last agenda item is reports Commissioners reports let's start with Stephanie none for me n for you I actually have two things I'd like to bring up uh one is kind of a piece of old business uh regarding the school constructed home uh about two weeks after we had that meeting I saw and I think it was in The Business Journal uh a developer who was advertising home slightly to the north of here starting at 375,000 for a I think it was a, 1400 foot home and so that you know our developer from the school was saying that it was hard to do anything for less than a half million I do understand economies of scale and that type of thing but on the other hand you know if they're using a lot of student labor doesn't that help exchange that so I just wanted to follow up on a push for them to try to get something closer to the $400,000 range that's a little more affordable for uh a young family starting out I because I figure if you know this this other location was I looked it up was only about 10 or 12 miles to the north of here if I remember right it doesn't seem like that much of a difference should make you know 100 ,000 price difference I still feel like they're overbuilding a little bit for a starter home uh the other thing I wanted to bring up was uh for consideration by the city council uh we still I should say mot uh in working with met Transit still has not decided on a terminal for the purple line and they're still considering taking the purple line over the Century College and so I'd like to recommend that the city council consider a letter to met Transit saying that if they do go over there that they should try to establish a stop uh in North St Paul I of course I realize it all depends as to what route they take if they take three if they take 694 over it doesn't make a lot of sense but you know Maplewood Mall is kind of in the middle between 36 and 694 so there is a possibility they might bring it down to 36 and if they knew there was support for that that might help us get something that was a little more uh expressed not that the 64 is a bad route it's actually got very good service on it but you know something that was an express route and it might even give them the opportunity if they ever do do an express bus out to still water and I don't know that they will but it's something that they've talked about it might give them uh you know a location for a hub so anyway like I said I just kind of wanted to to suggest that the city council might consider putting together a letter like that thank you that's all I've got I have nothing how about you Mr Alvarez I have nothing I have nothing I also have nothing all right well golly I must have something to talk about no I actually it was it was funny I was trying to take some notes about the agenda and I had come up with something and I thought about it and then it went you referring to the parade coming up uh there is a parade coming up I don't know what the date is however 19th the 19th of September not October September the 19th it's the um believe that's on a Thursday yeah yeah yeah that's right 13 days 22 hours 52 minutes 21 seconds we have a nice counter on the North St Paul website there you go to the parade there's also um a little parade that's going to happen from the VFW to the vets Park that I don't remember the date and I feel guilty in that regard since my wife is helping to organize it sorry Carrie um so I'm not sure when that is but it is it is happening this fall when is the last car show is it this Friday or next Friday or later it's the 20th the day after it's the day after the parade thank you my husband cares deeply about that yes it's the par show anyone here walking in the parade like last year yeah I don't know that we've even had discussion about it or talked about it but and I was on the parks committee they were really into it and they got t-shirts and and' throw candy and yeah was quite the deal and I think you were I was in it last year sure think I we've been it last I guess we were in one of them I like I don't remember I don't [Music] remember all right well with that um if there's no other business entertain a motion to a journey I so moved motion from commissioner muick second I'll second second from commissioner rothy all in favor say I hi hi we are adjourned at 709