[0:00] Welcome to the ONS podcast with your [0:03] host Lana Jacobson. [0:05] >> Welcome back you guys to our ONS [0:07] podcast. ONS stands for Office of [0:09] Neighborhood Safety. I'm your host Lana [0:11] Jacobson and I am a member of the ONS [0:13] team. This podcast was created for [0:16] departments like us and community [0:18] organizations to come on and talk about [0:20] our services. All of our episodes are [0:22] about connecting you to alternative [0:24] public safety measures, programs, and [0:26] your local growth and healing [0:28] opportunities. [0:29] Today we have Minnesota Justice Research [0:32] Center, better known as M&JRC, in the [0:34] studio. Minnesota Justice Research [0:36] Center is a nonprofit, nonpartisan [0:39] organization that partners with [0:40] Minnesota's public safety and legal [0:43] systems on our policies, programs, and [0:45] strategic plans. They have these teams [0:48] that come in and look at the work we do [0:50] and how we're doing it and whether it [0:52] aligns with justice, accountability, [0:54] equity, and second chances through [0:56] rehabilitation. In front of me, I have [0:59] MJRC's executive director, Justin [1:02] Terrell. Terrell has a degree in social [1:04] work and a master's in advocacy and [1:06] political leadership from Metro State. [1:08] [snorts] He started his career serving [1:10] children and families in crisis [1:11] situations. In 2012, he became a [1:14] community organizer and led several [1:17] successful campaigns on criminal justice [1:20] issues. He served as the executive [1:22] director of CMA [1:24] which is the council for motans of [1:27] African heritage advising the governor [1:29] and Minnesota legislature on issues [1:31] impacting black and African immigrant [1:33] communities during the pandemic and [1:34] civil unrest. In addition to being the [1:37] ED of Minnesota Justice Research Center, [1:40] Terrell was appointed by the governor to [1:42] serve on the post board which stands for [1:44] peace officer standards and training [1:46] board and is a longtime supporter of [1:48] Ujama place. Welcome, Justin. [1:50] >> Happy to be here. Thanks for having me. [1:52] >> Tell us a little bit about yourself that [1:54] I did not mention. So, like none of the [1:56] educational stuff. Just tell us like [1:58] your background, family. [2:00] >> Yeah. So, I'm from South Minneapolis. [2:02] I'm a southsider. Um, my family, we [2:04] actually grew up homeless in the city of [2:06] Minneapolis. So, I stayed at uh the 410 [2:08] shelter when I was a kid. [2:10] >> Um, sort of I like to say we kind of [2:11] experienced the best and the worst that [2:13] the city has to offer. [2:15] um grew up in the '9s, so you know, [2:17] Murder Atlas and all that stuff, which [2:18] is which is a story that I'm uh a lot of [2:21] friends that I'm talking to right now, a [2:23] lot of my peers were kind of [2:24] reconnecting to that era as we start [2:26] looking at some of the issues in [2:27] Minneapolis right now. [2:29] >> Um but it wasn't all bad, right? Like [2:31] the '9s were awesome, [2:33] >> hip-hop, and all that stuff. [2:35] >> Um [2:35] >> cross colors, all [2:36] >> definitely definitely cross colors and [2:38] spikely movies and stuff. [2:39] >> You know what? It's so nice to have [2:40] someone on this show that is around my [2:42] age so we can like talk about stuff. [2:44] Thank you. Go ahead. [2:45] >> Oh yeah, we can we can we can get into [2:47] [laughter] it. Um [snorts] and so I grew [2:48] up in South Minneapolis. Um and uh later [2:52] on uh moved back to my neighborhood [2:54] after college and started working with [2:56] youth and families and you know I just [2:58] kind of took me down a path where at one [2:59] point I ended up in front of a judge and [3:01] realized that if I ended up in front of [3:03] a judge and you know I went to church [3:05] twice on Sunday and every Wednesday with [3:07] my grandma that some of the cats I grew [3:09] up with they ain't really have a chance. [3:11] And so that started my journey into [3:13] criminal justice. you know, started [3:15] looking into organizing, trying to [3:16] figure out how to make a a difference in [3:18] my community, and it just kind of led me [3:19] down this path to where I'm at now. And [3:21] yeah, I'm just dedicated to serving my [3:24] community. [3:25] >> Awesome. Thank you for that. Do you [3:26] celebrate the holidays at all? [3:28] >> Like any holidays? [3:29] >> Yeah. [3:30] >> Yeah. [3:31] >> Okay. I'm cuz I got some iceberg [3:32] questions. [3:33] >> Okay. [3:33] >> And I just wanted to check in with you [3:35] before I get into them. [3:36] >> So, [snorts] [3:37] what is your favorite thing about [3:38] celebrating the holidays? [3:41] >> Well, let me think. I mean, you know, I [3:44] celebrate the holidays with my family. [3:45] So, if it's Halloween, my favorite thing [3:47] is the costumes. You know, we we like we [3:50] like costumes a lot in the Terrell [3:52] household. [3:53] >> So, like my favorite year is when we [3:54] dressed up as um the Incredibles [3:58] >> and uh I you know, I mentored a young [4:00] man who's 28 now. I met him when he was [4:02] 12. He's he's grown now. [4:04] >> Um but he played Frozone in that one. [4:06] So, you know, we got the whole the whole [4:08] crew together. So, that was a fun one. I [4:11] love Easter, Thanksgiving, just because [4:13] not necessarily because of the history [4:15] and traditions around those holidays, [4:16] but because of the food, you know, and [4:18] the meals. I think it's I think it's [4:20] always good to spend time eating good [4:21] food with family and friends. So, [4:23] >> how many boys do you have in your house? [4:25] >> So, I got two little boys, a 10-year-old [4:26] and a seven-year-old. It's me, and my [4:29] wife is outnumbered, but she likes to [4:30] count our cat Luna, you know. So, that's [4:33] kind of how that plays out. [4:34] >> Did you guys do all the superhero [4:36] costumes? Did you go through that stage [4:38] with the kids? cuz they're still kind of [4:39] young. So, I'm trying to figure out are [4:41] they coming up out of that stage or were [4:43] they, [4:43] >> you know, it's funny. They're really [4:45] into sports right now. And so, my [4:47] seven-year-old is obsessed with Messi. [4:49] >> Okay. [4:50] >> And um you know, and soccer and so he [4:52] wears like a different soccer jersey [4:54] every day. I like I'm like, "Where are [4:56] you getting these soccer jerseys from?" [4:57] His mom keeps buying him soccer jerseys. [4:59] >> And then my 10-year-old Booker, he's um [5:02] he's really into like gaming online with [5:04] his friends. [5:05] >> Okay. And so, you know, his football [5:07] teammates and whatnot, they like play [5:09] Fortnite together and all of that stuff. [5:11] And yeah, [5:11] >> you know, Fortnite isn't as crazy as it [5:13] used to be. But it was it was crazy. [5:15] Yeah. But I, you know, I watch what they [5:17] do. [5:17] >> I have a 18-year-old and a 22-year-old. [5:20] And back in the day, Halloween was like [5:22] their favorite because that was the time [5:24] that I was able to buy every single [5:26] superhero costume. And they just would [5:29] jump around running around the house [5:31] attacking each other. [laughter] [5:34] So that's why I asked, but then they [5:36] graduated into that Fortnite and video [5:39] gaming and all that other stuff. [5:40] >> It's also cool cuz their uncle Malik [5:42] plays online, too. So they have like a [5:44] babysitter online. [5:46] >> They got the headsets on. They're [5:47] talking trash to Uncle Malik. [5:50] >> What best statement describes your [5:51] parents' views growing up? You guys [5:53] better be good, otherwise Santa Claus is [5:56] not coming. B. No such thing as Santa. [5:59] He's not getting credit for all my [6:00] hard-earned money. We bought them gifts. [6:02] [laughter] [6:03] C. Jesus is the reason for the season. [6:06] Church, church, church. [6:08] >> So, you know, like I said in my intro, [6:10] like I grew up homeless in the city, [6:12] right? So, like, uh, [6:14] >> you know, my my attitude towards Santa [6:16] was really more like Riley from the [6:18] Boondocks, you know, in the [laughter] [6:21] >> like you going to pay what you owe [6:22] Santa. Like, we was just always [6:24] Christmas was was never like a a time of [6:27] joy in our house. is like a time to [6:29] remember that, you know, you really But [6:30] here's the thing, though, like don't [6:32] >> I ain't trying to get sad or nothing [6:34] because as you know, when you grow up [6:36] >> in those kind of situations, you know, [6:38] you're not the only one in that [6:39] situation and there's people on your [6:41] block and in your neighborhood and it's [6:43] still a fun time. It's just different, [6:46] right? [6:46] >> Like I didn't get a Nintendo for [6:48] Christmas. I got like pencils and a and [6:51] a rake, you know, so because I had to do [6:53] like, you know, work around the house, [6:55] >> which was fine. But um I was the kid [6:58] that always ruined Santa for everybody [7:00] else because I was like ain't no such [7:01] thing as Santa Cl. [7:03] [laughter] [7:04] >> Thank you for sharing and being so [7:06] vulnerable. I appreciate it. Next to Mr. [7:09] Terrell is M&JRC's research director, [7:12] Katie Remington Cunningham. Dr. Katie [7:14] Remington Cunningham is a [7:16] community-based researcher who's worked [7:18] in areas of the criminal legal system, [7:21] youth development, and education. In her [7:24] position at MJRC, Remington Cunningham [7:27] leads the organization in participatory [7:30] and collaborative community-led research [7:33] along with projects and evaluations in [7:35] partner organizations. As a researcher, [7:38] RC is invested in community. She is [7:41] focused on rigorous scholarship and has [7:44] an unyielding commitment to equity, [7:46] inclusion, and justice, assuring that [7:48] her work has impact. RC holds a PhD in [7:52] education with a focus on developmental [7:55] psychology from Stanford University and [7:57] a master's in secondary education from [7:59] the University of Missouri St. Louis. [8:02] Welcome Katie. [8:03] >> Thank you so much for having me. [8:04] >> Tell me a little bit about yourself that [8:06] I just did not speak on. [8:09] >> So I am not from here. I am a transplant [8:12] although I grew up in in Wisconsin in [8:14] Madison. And so for a long time when I [8:16] lived away from the Midwest, I was like [8:18] Minnesota, Wisconsin, like same thing, [8:21] you know, I'm basically from here. And [8:23] then moving to Minneapolis, I was like, [8:24] "Oh, no. [8:25] >> No, not the same thing. [8:26] >> Not at all." [laughter] [8:28] Um, so grew up in in in the Midwest in [8:31] Wisconsin, but have really lived all [8:32] over. In fact, moved uh to Minneapolis [8:35] in 2020, the summer of 2020, and um it [8:38] is now 2025, so this is the longest I've [8:41] lived anywhere since I was a child. So [8:43] um kind of all over the place. I went to [8:45] uh college on the east coast and was a [8:48] teacher in um St. Louis and really I I [8:51] would say like my whole sort of adult [8:53] career and life I've always thought of [8:54] myself as an educator but that's looked [8:56] a lot of different ways. [8:58] >> Um and so I then went out to the Bay [9:00] Area for graduate school and lived in [9:02] Oakland for about 7 years before coming [9:05] back here. So we are settled here I [9:07] think hopefully and I live with my [9:10] husband and three daughters. [9:11] >> Oh my goodness. Three girls in the [9:13] house. Mhm. [9:14] >> Oo. Opposite of what you got. [laughter] [9:17] >> It's a lot, but it's great. We love it [9:19] so much. She My my daughter Bee's almost [9:22] seven. We're all Libras except for Let's [9:25] see. Cora just turned four. So, she's [9:27] not. She's a Virgo very much so. And [9:30] then we all have October birthdays. So, [9:31] I have a seven-year-old, a [9:32] four-year-old, and almost one-year-old. [9:34] >> Oh my goodness. Do you guys do that [9:36] whole thing where like you just have one [9:37] big dinner? [9:38] >> Birthday month. It's just October is [9:40] birthday month. Yeah. We just we go all [9:42] out. Um I mean our birthdays, my husband [9:45] and I both have birthdays in October are [9:47] completely lost in the mix. So [9:49] >> good birthday has October birthdays. [9:52] >> Uh except for so my middle child Cora is [9:55] the end of September the 23rd and then [9:57] Simone's early November. So [9:59] >> okay, [snorts] [10:00] >> girl, I know. [10:01] >> See, I'm opposite of that. I'm just like [10:03] you, Justin. I had the two boys and then [10:06] the husband and then we had a male dog [10:10] so I was the only girl in the house and [10:12] I kind of like that, you know. I like [10:14] that. But now we've got [10:15] >> Besos so [laughter] she's walking [10:18] around. Um, which statement best [10:20] describes you, Katie? A, I absolutely [10:23] love the snow. I love outdoor winter [10:25] sports. I love sweaters and boots. I [10:27] love all the white dusted trees. [10:30] or B, um, it's snowing outside. I think [10:35] I'll light a fire in the fireplace and [10:37] work from home today cuz I don't want to [10:39] leave the crib. [10:41] >> So, my heart is definitely um the [10:46] former, but my like body is definitely [10:48] the latter. So, like I I like do love [10:50] the concept of winter and snow and cold [10:53] and like I think it's so magical and I [10:55] love especially since moving to [10:56] Minnesota, I've been like, "Okay, like [10:58] we have to learn how to, you know, [11:00] hockey skate or whatever." [11:02] >> Um, but I'm so cold all the time, so I'm [11:07] sort of miserable outside. Um, so I [11:09] would say like have especially with [11:10] kids, it's like we got to get out. Like [11:12] we got to get out every day. So we do [11:14] it. Um, but I but I'm sort of faking how [11:18] joyful I am mostly. I'm just really [11:20] cold. You're miserable. Yes. I'm just [11:22] miserable. And I want that fire. And it [11:24] always ends with like back inside to the [11:26] fire and the hot cocoa and the [11:28] >> extra warm socks. So both. [11:29] >> Yeah. Do you celebrate Christmas? [11:31] >> I do. [11:32] >> I got a Christmas question for you. [11:33] >> Okay. [11:34] >> Cozy Christmas Eve celebration. Let's [11:37] put on our ugly sweaters, eat and open [11:39] gifts, or traditional chaotic Christmas [11:42] morning. Let's open up these gifts and [11:44] have a healthy brunch and slap around in [11:47] PJs until 1 p.m. [11:49] >> I mean, kind of both. [11:51] >> Okay. [11:51] >> Um, yeah, kind of both. Different points [11:54] in my life, different years, um, [11:56] different, you know, as Justin said, I [11:58] feel like I love the holidays same [12:00] because of family. Like that is, you [12:02] know, what we do. And, um, I've got a [12:04] big family as well. And so, um, really [12:07] depends on who's in the space, whether [12:09] it's cozy and quiet and we got our [12:11] sweaters on or whether it's chaotic. [12:13] Usually a little bit of both. [12:14] >> Yeah, we do both in our house, too. We [12:16] also do Hanukkah. So, my boys um they [12:19] like to [12:20] >> they don't really do anything, but they [12:21] show up for the gifts. [12:24] >> Yep. But yeah, we do we do the Christmas [12:26] Eve and then we do [12:27] >> the Christmas brunch and just lay around [12:29] all day. I've kind of gotten to the [12:30] space or this place, excuse me, in my [12:33] life where it's like I'm not going [12:34] anywhere. I spent too many years running [12:36] around with babies because all the [12:38] family want you to come over when the [12:39] babies are little. I'm not doing that [12:41] anymore. You know, I paid too much of my [12:43] mortgage to be running around. [12:45] >> So, let's jump into these questions. [12:47] Give us a little bit more detail. What [12:50] is M&JRC? [12:53] And either one of you can take this. [12:54] >> You want to start? [12:55] >> Yeah, I'll take the the easy question. [12:58] um [laughter] [12:59] this this is my job to advance the [13:01] mission. So uh the Minnesota Justice [13:03] Research Center is a 501c3 nonprofit. [13:07] Our mission is to transform the criminal [13:08] legal system. Um and we utilize [13:11] research, education, and policy [13:12] development to do that. What that looks [13:15] like is really through research. We like [13:17] to dig into an issue and do our homework [13:20] is kind of how I refer to it. So that [13:22] not that we're trying to become experts [13:24] on any particular issue in justice, but [13:26] there's a lot to learn and and we like [13:28] to learn it. And so through education, [13:31] we try to bring people together across [13:33] differences. We're actually really good [13:35] at working with, you know, activists who [13:38] are like abolitionists, but we're also [13:40] really good at working with law [13:42] enforcement who actually care about the [13:44] community or Republicans, Democrats, [13:47] whatever. We tend to do a really good [13:49] job of bringing people together. uh [13:51] across differences um to learn together [13:54] and then uh we design policies uh [13:57] develop policies that help move the [13:59] system towards being more fair, [14:01] equitable, accountable and um and uh [14:05] restorative whenever possible. So under [14:07] our research which Katie can talk about [14:08] a Dr. Cunningham can talk about a little [14:10] bit more is just that you know we also [14:12] do program evaluations which is also how [14:14] we learn a lot. [14:15] >> Okay. And our whole our whole focus is [14:17] just like how do we dig in, bring people [14:20] together, and develop solutions that [14:22] people can advocate for. [14:23] >> And why is this kind of work so [14:25] important? [14:27] >> There's a lot of different ways to [14:28] answer that question. I'll take I'll [14:30] I'll use the Minnesota answer. So, it's [14:34] no surprise to folks. You know, [14:36] Minnesota was the source of a global [14:38] racial uprising, right? Um and [14:41] >> some people refer to as the reckoning. I [14:43] I I think we skipped the reckoning part [14:44] and people just got really desperate to [14:46] get back to normal. But we had to [14:48] confront the some ugly stuff came out in [14:51] in that in that experience and [14:53] >> and the reason why we should care about [14:55] it is because for a lot of things. So [14:59] our systems to administer justice in our [15:01] society need to be trustworthy and [15:04] humane and effective. And you can't say [15:08] that about our criminal legal system [15:09] today. Mhm. [15:10] >> And when the criminal legal system [15:12] doesn't function as it ought to to serve [15:14] the people and provide a a adequate and [15:17] effective intervention when people cause [15:19] harm or commit crimes, [15:20] >> well then in a sense it's facilitating [15:24] the next harm and the next crime. Mhm. [15:26] >> So, as a as if someone is a victim of [15:29] gun violence or and they lose a loved [15:31] one, if they don't believe the system is [15:33] going to intervene and and create a [15:36] pathway to justice for the indiv and [15:37] hold the person accountable who who shot [15:39] your loved one, well, then it is [15:41] actually reasonable for you to think [15:43] maybe I should take that course of [15:45] action myself. And so we need an [15:47] effective criminal justice system that [15:50] actually provides effective, humane, [15:53] trustworthy interventions so that people [15:56] believe that we can rely on a system to [15:59] administer justice so that we don't have [16:01] to seek mob justice or community [16:04] violence as a response to the absence of [16:07] a effective system. And so I'll just [16:10] close by saying this is just that this [16:12] is important to me because I actually [16:14] think Minnesota is respon is responsible [16:16] for um making sure our country has a [16:20] model [16:22] >> uh that other states can follow. We [16:25] should be the we should have the best [16:26] criminal justice system in the country. [16:28] We should be clear about how we want [16:31] officers to interact with our [16:32] communities. We should be clear about [16:34] how we want pre-trial and bail. We, you [16:37] know, those those STR uh pre-trial [16:40] processes to to uh operate, we should be [16:43] really clear about our court systems and [16:45] how we administer justice and s and [16:47] sentencing and and um and it if we're [16:52] going to suspend someone's liberties and [16:53] incarcerate them, we should do that in [16:56] the most humane way possible, which our [16:57] current structure is our current [16:59] structure is based on archaic ancient [17:02] ideas of punishment uh fuko type stuff, [17:06] right? And then finally, when people [17:08] return to society, we should be prepared [17:11] to welcome them back and we should give [17:13] them a job to do to repair the harm that [17:16] they potentially cause. And so, um, we [17:19] have a big mission, a big goal of [17:23] advancing and creating a criminal [17:25] justice system who we can actually call [17:26] just. And we need everybody [17:30] to help us do that. And so, we're we're [17:32] a small team. We're passionate about [17:34] this work. We're excit I'm always [17:36] excited to talk about it. So, thank you. [17:38] Um, but yeah, we need everybody in this [17:41] fight. [17:41] >> An effective justice system is part of [17:44] our preventative measures. [17:46] >> Absolutely. [17:47] >> Katie, do you want to jump in or [17:49] >> Yeah, I'll just add, you know, I think [17:51] one of the things, you know, when I hear [17:53] your question, why is this kind of work [17:56] so important? I think about the kind of [17:58] work that we do, too, right? In addition [17:59] to sort of like what we want, how we do [18:02] it. And and I think it's I think our [18:05] approach is imperfect and we're [18:07] definitely, you know, building this [18:09] plane as we fly it, but we care really [18:13] deeply about change, right? If we're [18:15] trying to seek system transformation, we [18:17] have to actually see change happen and [18:19] we know it can be slow and we know [18:21] sometimes, you know, it can be small, [18:23] but we have to have that larger goal. [18:26] And in order to do that, you know, as [18:28] Justin mentioned, sort of like with our [18:30] research or the tools that we have, we [18:33] have to actually be really thoughtful [18:35] about the problem, [18:37] >> right? I think sometimes when we are [18:39] trying to seek change, we skip a deep [18:41] analysis of the problem, which is why I [18:44] love research. And I think also [18:45] sometimes I have seen and we have seen [18:48] you know research can be a very powerful [18:50] tool for change and to convince people [18:54] or to um shift practice or culture or [18:57] policy [18:58] >> but often that tool you know when we [19:00] think of traditional research and I know [19:02] we're on a podcast but I'm using air [19:04] quotes research right like that is very [19:08] very stale. It's usually quantitative. [19:11] It's usually numbers and it's usually [19:13] done by folks who are really [19:15] disconnected from the issue. And so why [19:18] I think our kind of work is really [19:20] important is because all of our research [19:22] and education and policy work is really [19:25] centered around communities closest to [19:28] the issue. And I say communities plural [19:31] because there's no, you know, monolithic [19:33] community, [19:34] >> but like folks closest to the issue. You [19:36] know, we deeply believe that we should [19:38] send our people most impacted by issues. [19:40] So often that when we talk about our [19:41] legal system, you know, it's not quite a [19:43] criminal justice system yet, but those [19:45] are folks who are, you know, [19:47] incarcerated or arrested or oftentimes [19:49] family members or loved ones, people who [19:51] have, you know, been harmed by others or [19:52] by the system. But also another [19:55] community of folks are those people [19:57] working in the system. And so if we [19:58] really want to understand, you know, for [20:01] example, how and why cash bail works or [20:04] doesn't works, it actually means you [20:06] have to, in our opinion, start with [20:09] people who maybe have been incarcerated [20:11] and then also talk to judges, [20:15] prosecutors, public defenders, even like [20:17] pre-trial services administrators, [20:19] right? like folks who are sometimes [20:21] doing the work on the ground in the in [20:23] sometimes like some boring [20:25] administrative ways but they have a lot [20:26] of power and they have actually a lot of [20:28] ideas about change. Like so many people [20:30] we talk to [20:32] >> are actually really frustrated with [20:34] status quo but there's not a lot of [20:36] creativity or excitement on how to shift [20:39] that. And so we start with those, you [20:41] know, we start by opening up that [20:43] opportunity to shift the status quo [20:44] through our research. We ask these kind [20:46] of provocative questions. We dig in. We [20:49] figure out like what are the right [20:51] questions. We talk to community members [20:52] and system actors and everyone in [20:54] between to figure out if we're asking [20:55] the right questions. We pivot. We turn. [20:58] But then we sort of open that space to [21:00] actually imagine something different. [21:02] And in many ways if we're successful and [21:04] we have been in some instances for sure, [21:06] we are able to then sort of like fill [21:07] that space with with a transformed [21:10] system either in a small way or ideally [21:12] hopefully someday a large way. You [21:14] actually answered my question because my [21:16] next question was, "How does your [21:17] research help guide public safety [21:19] efforts and policies in Minnesota?" So, [21:21] I'm going to ask you the second half of [21:22] that question, which is, what are some [21:24] of the things you walk away with after a [21:27] hard day of serving others when doing [21:30] your research? [21:32] >> That's a good question. Um, some of the [21:35] things I walk away with after a hard [21:37] day, you know, it's funny. I don't I [21:38] don't exactly think of myself as serving [21:41] others. [21:42] >> Okay. Um, but maybe that's just nuanced. [21:45] Um, I think of myself and our [21:48] organization as really contributing like [21:50] I think we we are deeply collaborative. [21:53] We're contributing to, you know, [21:55] important efforts happening all over. [21:57] And I think that service when I think of [21:59] service, you know, it sort of like [22:01] brings up and Dustin and I talk a lot [22:02] about this, right? brings up these sort [22:04] of like notions of you know kind of help [22:07] and like when you serve and when you [22:09] help like those things are really [22:11] important but for us to actually [22:13] transform systems we can't just sort of [22:14] serve and help you know as I said we [22:16] have to actually like kind of dig in and [22:18] pull apart and tease apart and sometimes [22:22] you know with research when you ask hard [22:24] questions sometimes you get the answer [22:26] that you didn't really want or that [22:28] you're not quite sure how to make sense [22:30] of [22:31] >> and so I think what I feel at the end of [22:34] a hard day is I I feel a lot of hope and [22:38] that's another like word that we sort of [22:39] grapple with and concept that we've been [22:41] thinking a lot about. But I do feel a [22:42] lot of hope that people come to the [22:45] table when you open up a space for them [22:47] to bring their lived experience like the [22:50] thing that they know to a conversation [22:53] to try to then work together toward [22:54] issues. Right? So I more see ourselves [22:56] as like setting up asking questions, [22:59] setting up these containers in really [23:01] thoughtful and strategic ways so that [23:03] people don't have to be experts on bail [23:06] or policing or community supervision or [23:09] right like I'm not a lawyer, you know, I [23:12] don't I'm not a criminologist. I'm an [23:13] educator. [23:14] >> Um and so I don't have a legal [23:16] background. And I think when we come to [23:18] spaces with our lived experience, I have [23:20] experience with the criminal legal [23:22] system. we all do in some ways if we [23:24] just like open up, you know, sort of our [23:26] minds to how it's impacted us. We're [23:29] able to share what we know, our embodied [23:31] experience, and then we can take one [23:33] step closer to thinking about creative [23:34] ideas about how we might do better. So, [23:37] kind of a long-winded answer to like how [23:38] do I feel at the end of a hard day [23:40] serving others. I do feel a sense of [23:42] hope because I think that the way we do [23:43] this work, we see examples of it every [23:46] day that people show up and then keep [23:49] showing up and engage in this [23:51] conversation because we have it's really [23:53] really collaborative participatory. It [23:56] requires all of us, right? Like that's [23:57] how Justin ended which is just like we [23:59] have to we can't just move this thing on [24:02] our own. Like we have to actually show [24:04] up and all um step in in our own way if [24:07] that makes sense. Justin, so you have [24:11] spent time on the CMA [24:15] and you served on the Ujama board. That [24:20] is a line of service. Do you compare [24:23] what you do now? Do you see it as [24:25] service with working with the Minnesota [24:27] Justice Research Center? Sorry. She's [24:30] like, "Sorry, you edit that out." She's [24:33] like, [24:33] >> she's like, "How long do I have to sit [24:36] here?" [24:36] >> I love her. [laughter] [24:37] I love her. [24:38] >> Puppy disclaimer. [24:39] >> Sorry you guys. I just want to put a [24:41] disclaimer out that I am accompanied not [24:44] only by Justin, uh, my engineer Anton [24:48] Katie, but I also have Basos sitting on [24:51] my lap. So, if you hear any growls or [24:52] grumbles or barks or any of those things [24:55] in the background, that is what you hear [24:57] are hearing. So, Justin, tell me what [24:59] you think about service. [25:01] >> Okay. So, it's it's interesting because [25:04] um I agree with Dr. coming in like we [25:06] don't really consider our work like [25:08] service providing right so uh but when [25:11] we when we perform when a client hires [25:13] us to do an evaluation of their program [25:16] that is a service that we are providing [25:18] but even when we do that we're we're [25:20] thinking about what can we learn [25:22] >> and what can we help the community learn [25:24] through this experience but in my [25:25] previous role um as the executive [25:28] director of the council for motans of [25:30] African heritage or SEMA for short um [25:34] the service I was providing there was to [25:36] be uh it was a representative body uh of [25:39] different parts of the African-American [25:40] and African immigrant communities and [25:43] the service we were providing was [25:44] advising the governor and the [25:45] legislature [25:46] >> um to make sure that the decisions that [25:48] that they were making you know that [25:50] there were some black folks in the mix [25:52] >> no matter what and we would bring people [25:54] together from all over the state right [25:57] and so that was the service we were [25:58] providing was like an on-ramp to the [25:59] legislature and the governor's office at [26:01] Ujama you know I never I've never worked [26:03] at Ujama but I've served on the board [26:05] and have been a longtime supporter. I [26:07] was literally there yesterday, right? Um [26:10] that, you know, Ujama does provide a [26:12] service, but once again, I would [26:14] challenge this idea of like help and [26:16] serving, right? [26:17] >> Okay. [26:18] >> What I think about is [music] [26:20] as a black man, right, and look at our [26:22] community, we often talk about [26:24] historical trauma. [26:26] >> And there is no way to heal that trauma [26:29] through service, acts of service. [26:31] >> We do acts of service all the time. [26:32] People look out for each other all the [26:34] time in our community. It's something [26:36] it's a narrative that doesn't get [26:37] elevated enough. And Daniel Sured talks [26:41] about how the opposite of trauma is not [26:44] healing. That the opposite of trauma is [26:46] agency. And so I for rather as a [26:49] community organizer or serving on the [26:51] board of Ujama, whatever role I played [26:53] in the last, you know, 15 years or so, I [26:56] have tried to focus on how do I help my [26:58] community build agency? [27:00] >> Okay. How do I help us develop the [27:02] ability to act in our own interest? And [27:06] specifically when it comes to the [27:07] criminal legal system, come on now. [27:10] Like, you know, the state is 80% white [27:12] and 40% of the prison population is [27:16] bipac, right? 35% I believe is black. [27:19] And actually, I think my numbers are low [27:21] that I'm saying off the top of my head [27:22] right now. [27:23] >> Yeah. [27:23] >> And so that doesn't happen by an a by [27:25] accident. And it's not going to unhappy [27:27] by accident. you're not going to be able [27:29] to provide quality probation services to [27:32] fix that problem. In order to fix that [27:35] problem, communities have to develop [27:37] power or agency to act in their own [27:39] self-interest to make sure that that [27:41] system goes from targeting our [27:43] communities to serving our communities. [27:46] And so my interest isn't the service [27:48] that I provide or that our organization [27:51] provides. My interest is making sure the [27:53] service the criminal legal system [27:55] provides is one that is effective for [27:57] our community. And in order to get [27:59] there, we have to do our homework. One [28:02] of the funniest things about the [28:03] research I'll just say is um my favorite [28:06] experience is when we complete a report [28:09] and I go to the barber shop and I'm [28:12] like, "Hey, did y'all see this report we [28:14] just put up on our website?" You know, [28:15] I'm like, "Check it out." And they'll be [28:17] like, "Yeah, you know, I read that." And [28:19] I, "Okay, cool. What' you think, man? we [28:21] already knew that. We already knew what [28:22] was in that report. And they go on and [28:24] on, you know, and and it's just and you [28:26] know, it's funny. I always just say I'm [28:28] like that means I did my job because [28:30] it's not about discovering new [28:32] information most of the time. It is [28:34] about affirming our experiences [28:38] >> so that there's [28:39] >> data to back up [28:41] >> what we have experienced in our [28:43] community that we can stand on business. [28:45] Now it's like, you know, it makes it [28:47] very hard for them and they will dismiss [28:49] data and all of that, you know, when [28:51] folks target our communities. Let's be [28:53] clear about that. Data won't save us. [28:55] And when we have the data, it is another [28:58] tool in our toolkit to advocate for our [29:00] community. And so there's a wide range [29:02] of things we need. We need data. We need [29:05] well-resourced organizations. We need [29:08] policies that reflect our experience and [29:10] not necessarily just like systems [29:13] theory, right? Um, [29:15] >> and and so we need a bunch of tools in [29:17] the toolkit and data is one of them. And [29:19] so whenever people roll their eyes and [29:20] like Justin, you're going to tell me [29:22] your report discovered that there is [29:24] racism in the Minneapolis Police [29:25] Department. Like we've known that for [29:27] like 150 years, you know, I'm like, you [29:29] can roll your eyes at me. That's cool. [29:31] But let's see how they try to let's see [29:32] how the system tries to lie about it [29:34] now. You know what I'm saying? [29:36] >> And that to me is a fight worth taking [29:38] on and a story worth telling. Katie, can [29:42] you tell our audience a little bit about [29:43] your partnership with ONS and the work [29:45] that you've been doing with our office? [29:47] >> Yeah. So, we connected with the Office [29:50] of Neighborhood Safety. Gosh, it's been [29:52] almost a year and a half, I think, since [29:54] we first um had kind of preliminary [29:56] conversations. And I think at the time [29:58] >> we were sort of in the same space where [30:00] we're building out this thing called [30:01] project piece and we're we've got some [30:04] structure, but you know, talking with [30:06] with Brooke and Faith and Rachel, we [30:08] know that early on we want to make sure [30:11] that we are thoughtful about building a [30:14] program um or an approach to, you know, [30:17] gun violence intervention, community [30:18] violence intervention. So, what do you [30:20] think about being an evaluation partner? [30:22] And and we were like, yeah, you it's [30:24] sort of hard to evaluate something [30:25] that's not that doesn't exist yet, but [30:26] let's talk. And you So, we kind of [30:28] continued conversations and to the [30:30] credit of you all at ons like just the [30:32] movement, the sort of in some ways the [30:34] speed that you've like moved and built [30:36] both the office and also project piece [30:38] has been so astounding and really [30:40] thoughtful. And so, it was something [30:42] like three or four months later, I think [30:44] Brooke reached out and was like, "We [30:45] actually have a very formal RFP process [30:46] now. Like, we're doing it. you want to, [30:48] you know, apply if you want. And we were [30:50] like, "Oh gosh." Okay. So, we, you know, [30:52] we went through the formal process and [30:54] and got the contract. And our [30:56] partnership, I call it a, as Justin [30:59] mentioned, we do program evaluation. [31:01] Most of the sort of program evaluation [31:03] that we do is a little different than [31:05] your standard program evaluation where [31:07] you have like a very clear set of [31:09] outcomes or you have a program design [31:12] that exists and you're like let's [31:14] measure, you know, whether or not we're [31:16] doing those things that we intend to do, [31:18] right? Like in the criminal legal [31:20] system, we hear a lot like the one piece [31:23] of evidence that shows a, you know, an [31:25] evidence-based program that is effective [31:27] is one that reduces recidivism. And [31:29] you're like, okay, [31:31] you know, toward what end? And and for [31:34] whom? And right, like I have all kinds [31:35] of questions about that as an outcome, [31:37] but it's a classic one. In some ways, [31:38] it's it's often the only one that [31:40] programs in this space look at like are [31:42] we are we reducing people going back to [31:45] prison like what a low bar. So when we [31:48] connect with organizations or offices [31:50] doing sort of innovative work, we embark [31:53] on what we call developmental [31:54] evaluation. All that means is it sort of [31:57] unfolds as we go. So this partnership [31:59] has really been us sort of acting as as [32:03] your research partners. We get to kind [32:04] of ask that question and we get to ask [32:06] the question over and over again in [32:08] different ways like what feels like [32:10] success to you all. Okay, if this feels [32:12] like success for you all, if you feel [32:14] like you've made the world a different [32:15] or better place, you know, in the way [32:17] that you want to. If you are addressing [32:19] gun violence, for example, or if you're [32:21] creating a robust community violence [32:23] intervention program, what does that [32:24] look like to you? And then we try to [32:27] figure out again really collaboratively [32:29] creative ways to measure that right so [32:31] you know that's what research is right [32:32] we ask a question we're trying to figure [32:34] something out and then we go out and we [32:36] find the evidence of it we figure out [32:38] what data is and so for project piece [32:40] for on ands we've really looked at kind [32:42] of five big things but primarily we're [32:44] we're supporting the office in the [32:47] development of the program so the sort [32:48] of sausage making piece right like how [32:50] are we building a program like this and [32:53] we're doing interviews and lots of [32:54] observations as you Oh, we're showing [32:56] up, you know, to the safe summer night [32:58] and, you know, we get to watch meetings [32:59] and all that good stuff. We're looking [33:01] at impact on crime. You know, we have [33:03] had a lot of conversations about what [33:05] that means and how to measure that, but [33:07] it's something that we have heard loud [33:08] and clear from folks at ONS and system [33:11] partners that this matters. Yeah. [33:12] >> And, you know, as a researcher, I'm [33:14] always thoughtful about sort of looking [33:16] to measures or outcomes that like won't [33:19] actually be, you know, very informative, [33:21] right? I think crime rate is like your [33:23] classic one where it's sort of like it's [33:25] most highly associated with ice cream [33:27] sales. Um, and so like you could say ice [33:30] cream causes crime, but like it doesn't, [33:32] right? There's lots of other things [33:34] happening there. So, it's a tough one to [33:35] sort of tease apart and say like did [33:37] project peace reduce gun violence? [33:39] That's a tough question, but there are [33:41] ways that we can go about it. So, we're [33:43] sort of digging in there. [33:44] >> We're looking at the experience for [33:46] participants, for clients as you call [33:47] them, right? And so, that's really [33:49] important to you. really important to [33:51] us. If you are working with young people [33:54] who are impacted by gun violence, we [33:56] want to know how they're experiencing [33:57] you. And it's nice to be the sort of [33:59] independent evaluator. We found it to be [34:01] really sometimes it's a fun sort of [34:03] middle person role, right? Where you get [34:05] to be like, we are not the city of St. [34:07] Paul and we're not your mom, so like [34:09] tell us about this, right? Like what has [34:11] your experience actually been? Um, so [34:13] we're we're doing interviews. um we're [34:15] really digging into client and [34:16] participant experiences because that [34:18] matters for programming. And then [34:20] finally, sort of a an assessment or an [34:22] exploration of how the community is [34:24] feeling and experiencing this program. [34:26] So we did a big survey this summer to [34:28] try to understand, you know, community [34:30] members sort of knowledge of and [34:31] understanding a project piece and just [34:33] feelings around safety, right? So [34:35] there's broader conversations happening [34:37] and trying to figure out like is sort of [34:40] peace or ons shifting that those [34:42] feelings cuz sometimes feelings are the [34:44] best measurement of whether or not um a [34:47] place is safe right how you feel you can [34:49] tell us that crime is down across the [34:51] country right we hear these [34:52] conversations a lot especially in our [34:53] world but if you don't feel safe that [34:55] doesn't matter to me right and so so [34:58] we're digging in there too and that's [34:59] you know this ons partnership I has been [35:02] such an amazing one and it's really [35:04] pretty, I would say, sort of [35:06] representative of how we try to do our [35:08] work, especially with with government [35:09] partners. You know, we've worked with [35:10] the city of St. Paul before to really [35:12] try to be a sort of a resource, but also [35:16] sort of go alongside you as you're [35:18] building and doing your work and asking [35:19] those hard questions. So, we'll be [35:21] continuing that for the next gosh, I [35:23] think, sort of formally our contract's [35:24] up in in next June. So, it's like a [35:26] two-year project. And so pretty soon [35:28] here actually we're going to pivot to [35:30] our like cave work as I call it as [35:32] researchers where we've done a lot of [35:33] data collection and now we have this [35:35] sort of [35:35] >> put it together. [35:36] >> Yeah. We got to dig in and you know turn [35:38] out the lights and sit on our computers. [35:40] Right. [laughter] But we get to really [35:43] sort of explore and listen to those [35:44] interviews and and try to understand [35:46] themes and and findings and [35:47] recommendations to support the work [35:48] you're all doing. [sighs and snorts] [35:50] >> Justin, um let's talk about your current [35:52] projects. So what does M&JRC have going [35:55] on currently? So obviously our project [35:58] peace work which once again I will just [35:59] cosign too just saying that I'm really [36:01] excited about that project. You know [36:04] Selby Jazzfest is one of my favorite [36:06] events in the community and it was [36:08] interesting to be out there talking to [36:09] people about the survey this year and [36:12] which normally I just go and listen to [36:13] music. Yeah. [36:14] >> And so I had a lot more conversations [36:16] about community safety in that space and [36:19] that's because of the opportunity that [36:20] you guys gave us. And so that leads to [36:22] other opportunities, right, to help [36:24] >> build, uh, trust and and relationships [36:26] in the community for the organization. [36:29] Our largest projects right now have to [36:30] do with pre-trial. So, um, we got a [36:33] appropriation from the state of [36:34] Minnesota to study Minnesota's pre-trial [36:37] system. Other folks know it as cash [36:39] bail. [36:40] >> Okay. [36:40] >> And so, we have this great report on our [36:42] on our website that you can check out. [36:44] We actually have two, three reports on [36:46] >> Yeah, there's a couple reports. There's [36:48] some also, you know, like shorter [36:49] videos. We have like a mini doc that's [36:51] like 11 minutes that's really cool that [36:53] digs into that project and there's some [36:55] one pagers and there's some good ways to [36:57] access our findings I would say. And if [36:59] you read our report, we have basically [37:02] through us around of traveling across [37:04] the country, across the state, [37:05] interviewing systems actors, [37:07] interviewing people who who've had to [37:08] who slept in jail or paid bail, [37:11] >> we put together a recommendation for a [37:13] system that we believe could absolutely [37:16] replace the cash bail system in [37:17] Minnesota. [37:18] >> And so folks should check that out. And [37:20] if you cosign and you and you believe in [37:22] what we're talking about, you should [37:23] help us help support that effort at the [37:25] capital as there's a data bill that's [37:27] been introduced right now. Another body [37:29] of work that we're working on that we've [37:31] been working on for a couple years now [37:32] is probation and community supervision. [37:34] >> Okay. Um, so we were we were helpful in [37:36] working on a policy that redesigned the [37:39] clemency process at the state, which I'm [37:41] very excited about because you had [37:43] formerly incarcerated people working on [37:45] that. And now, you know, we went from [37:46] having like maybe one or two pardons a [37:49] year to now like every time you go the [37:52] room is packed and there's all these [37:53] folks there advocating to get their [37:55] records dealt with. And um Jason Soul is [37:58] right now um fighting for his and I'll [38:01] just poke a little bit of fun at Jason [38:03] like you know based if you know his [38:05] record of leadership he'll absolutely [38:07] get one right. [38:08] >> Mhm. [38:08] >> And so we want people to continue to do [38:10] that but also in our work with uh [38:12] formerly incarcerated folks we helped to [38:14] advocate for the closure of Stillwater [38:16] Prison this year. Okay. The oldest [38:18] prison facility in the state. [38:20] >> We brought together some researchers to [38:22] talk about it. talked about community [38:24] did some education and um there wasn't [38:26] like a bill or anything to advocate for [38:28] but there was enough support for the [38:30] idea that the governor and the [38:31] commissioner were able to make that [38:32] decision and then you know coming back [38:34] to the table to make sure that as they [38:36] decommission that facility [38:38] >> that there's formally incarcerated [38:39] people involved in that process to [38:41] ensure that there's a humane process and [38:44] that may not be all in the news and [38:45] whatnot but the reality is like that's [38:48] the kind of work that we're dedicated to [38:49] is making sure people impacted are part [38:52] of that kind of process. [38:53] >> Okay. [38:54] >> I would be remiss if I didn't mention [38:56] one more topic and there's a bunch of [38:58] issues that we're working on. [39:00] >> But um [39:00] >> you guys are everywhere. Like I've heard [39:02] of all these things. I just didn't know [39:04] that you were either advocating for them [39:06] or behind it or push the push. [39:08] >> And let me and let me be clear like you [39:10] know we don't do these we don't do this [39:12] work alone. Like if it sounds like I'm [39:14] taking credit for all of this stuff, I [39:16] hope that's not how it sounds. Like [39:18] we're really clear about our [39:19] contributions. We have specific [39:21] contributions to these fights. And so [39:24] the last one is a body of work around [39:25] policing. [39:26] >> And so, you know, we helped design the [39:29] consent decree in Minneapolis. [39:31] >> Okay. [39:31] >> And we are working on our conference [39:33] this year is going to be focused on law [39:35] enforcement entirely. And so we'll be [39:38] talking about the consent decree. Um, [39:40] we'll be talking about BCR, the behavior [39:42] crisis response unit and innovative ways [39:45] for community to be involved in [39:47] responding to calls that don't require a [39:49] gun and a badge. The behavioral crisis [39:52] unit in Minneapolis is wildly popular. [39:54] I've yet to meet somebody that doesn't [39:56] like it. And um, it's just this idea [39:58] when you call 911, they can send, and [40:00] this is due to Trevor's law that was [40:01] passed at the at the state capital a few [40:03] years ago. When you call 911, you can [40:05] send a mental health professional [40:07] instead of someone with a gun and a [40:08] badge. And we're evaluating that program [40:10] as well right now. And we have, like I [40:13] said, we have yet to run into somebody [40:15] that has like deep concerns even though [40:16] we do have recommendations to improve [40:18] it. And then the we're also going to [40:20] talk at our conference about the [40:22] clearance rate in Minneapolis. And so in [40:25] St. Paul, in the Twin Cities, you know, [40:27] one thing that most people can agree on [40:29] is that we want law enforcement to be [40:32] really good at solving crimes. Mhm. [40:36] >> You know, somebody who's lost loved ones [40:38] to community violence, like I wanted [40:40] that [40:41] >> homicide detective to be on his job. [40:44] Like some straight up law and order type [40:46] stuff, right? It doesn't matter when [40:48] you're the victim of community violence, [40:50] you want solutions. You want to resolve [40:52] that that moment, that that issue. And [40:55] so, we want cops to be really good at [40:57] solving crimes. And um we're going to [40:59] have a conversation about how to how to [41:01] increase um clearance rates in [41:02] Minneapolis specifically. And then the [41:05] last conversation we're going to have [41:06] and there's a blog post on our website. [41:08] You can check out our most recent blog [41:09] post is around um I don't even know how [41:12] to describe this. So I've been a part of [41:15] this project called the police and black [41:16] men project for the last eight years. [41:17] And so [41:18] >> what that has been has been a ongoing [41:21] conversation with long with police [41:23] officers in the fourth precinct in [41:24] Minneapolis and black men from the [41:27] community, not like academic brothers [41:29] and whatnot, you know, but like [41:31] neighborhood cats like like sitting down [41:34] with the police once a month to talk [41:37] about the issues of the day. And we've [41:38] been doing this for eight years. So that [41:40] means we're talking Jamar Clark, we're [41:42] talking Philando Castile, we're talking [41:44] about [41:45] >> all these incidents that happened. We [41:47] were at the table discussing them as [41:50] they happened. [41:51] >> Um, challenging law enforcement and [41:54] sometimes law enforcement challenging us [41:56] and that's been a long [41:59] >> I don't know how to tense conversation [42:01] at times. [42:02] >> Speak. [42:02] >> Yeah. You know, like I'm talking about [42:04] knockdown dragout [42:06] screaming arguments we've had in those [42:08] in that space [42:09] >> and through that tension we've built [42:11] just a tremendous amount of trust and [42:13] respect for one another. Now, we do we [42:15] take the officers and when I say we, I [42:17] mean the community. We pay for these [42:19] trips to take officers down to [42:21] Montgomery and talk about race at the [42:23] Legacy Museum led by EJI. [42:25] >> And so, a few months ago, we led a [42:28] restorative justice circle in North [42:30] Minneapolis and 75 people came out and [42:33] people walked out of there after being [42:35] able to sit down next to an officer [42:37] >> and asked the difficult questions and [42:39] nobody got mad. Nobody threw a chair. [42:41] you know, like and and nobody got no and [42:43] no one no one like bought into [42:45] propaganda either, right? Like [42:47] >> I got goosebumps. [42:48] >> Well, hey, I'm doing my job. And so at [42:51] our conference this year, we're going to [42:52] have that conversation at the conference [42:55] as well, which it's really, and I'll [42:57] just say this about policing work, it's [42:58] really difficult because I I never we [43:01] never want to be in a position where we [43:04] are unreasonably critical of law [43:06] enforcement [43:07] >> and we don't want to be in a position [43:09] where we're like a a arm of propaganda [43:12] for law enforcement. And so we are [43:14] constantly trying to thread this needle [43:15] of integrity. So, we are constantly [43:17] questioned by law enforcement like, [43:19] "What are you guys up to?" And they [43:20] don't trust us cuz they look at our [43:22] website and they see the consent decree [43:23] report on there or whatever. And the [43:25] community is like, "What are y'all up [43:26] to?" Because they're like, "You sitting [43:28] down, Justin, I see you walking into the [43:30] fourth precinct the other day." Right. [43:32] Like that [43:32] >> back in the day, that would have been a [43:34] highly problematic situation. [43:36] >> Right. And so, [43:37] >> you would have came out to no tires. [43:39] >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And so it's this [43:42] it's this really difficult thing that [43:44] we're trying to do this really [43:45] complicated conversation we're trying to [43:47] lead because we simply believe [43:49] >> frankly St. Paul does not have the [43:51] reputation that MPD has, but we need a [43:53] Minneapolis model for public safety. [43:55] That is, in my opinion, the only [43:58] appropriate response to the uprising [44:01] >> is that we can say as a city and as a [44:03] Twin Cities and as a state, we came [44:06] together after what we rightfully, [44:08] outrageously refused to accept. Mhm. [44:12] >> Uh, black man murdered in front of a of [44:15] children and our elders and colleagues [44:17] who begged those officers to stop what [44:19] they were doing. Now, you can say what [44:21] whatever you want to say about George [44:23] Floyd, but the reality is our community [44:24] was there, witnessed it, and asked them [44:26] to change their behavior, and they did [44:28] not. And that man died. And so the only [44:31] response to that is for law enforcement [44:34] to change their behavior and to listen [44:35] to community, which also means community [44:38] has to move into proximity with law [44:40] enforcement. [44:42] >> And I'm willing, anyone can challenge me [44:43] on this theory of change. Like Katie [44:45] said, we are [44:46] >> building this plane as we're trying to [44:48] fly it [44:49] >> and we have seen powerful results from [44:53] these efforts. But man, when I tell you [44:55] this is not an easy conversation to try [44:57] to lead. [44:58] >> Yeah. [44:58] >> Just keeping it 100. I know. Last [45:01] question and thank you for that. What [45:04] are your goals for the city of St. [45:06] Paul's Office of Neighborhood Safety? [45:08] Katie, we'll start with you. [45:09] >> That's a great question. I think [45:12] especially, you know, thinking about the [45:14] the work that we've done, you know, over [45:16] the last year and a half and that we're, [45:18] you know, still doing, of course, I [45:21] think a big goal for the Office of [45:24] Neighborhood Safety in in particular is [45:28] for not just for Project Peace, but for [45:31] all all of the, you know, various [45:32] efforts that you all are are working on [45:35] to like really continue to ground them [45:40] in the sort of like initial values. So [45:43] what I mean by that is I you know again [45:44] like a couple of years ago when we [45:46] started having this conversation the [45:48] office of neighborhood safety really the [45:49] the sort of prevention or I mean of [45:52] peace is my favorite acronym ever. Do [45:54] you know what it stands for? It's like [45:56] 17 things in project peace. It's like [45:59] prevention and intervention education [46:02] and some it's actually not peace. It's [46:03] like p i e. Anyway, I love it, but it's [46:06] everything, right? And it's this idea, [46:08] which which is, you know, it's [46:10] complicated, but I love that the sort of [46:12] the initiative with the Office of [46:14] Neighborhood Safety was actually to [46:15] really be deeply holistic. And so, you [46:18] know, I'm seeing ch we're seeing [46:19] challenges. We're digging into [46:21] challenges. But my goal really, one of [46:23] the big goals I would have for that for [46:24] the for ONS is to really stay true to [46:27] that sort of like holistic approach [46:29] because I think that has to be how an [46:31] office of neighborhood safety operates, [46:33] right? Like neighborhood safety is so [46:36] many things. Mhm. [46:37] >> Um and you are, you know, you're a, you [46:40] know, a government system and so like [46:42] there there are going to be spaces where [46:45] when you think about these, you know, [46:47] this sort of like holistic and [46:48] wraparound approach, you have to make [46:50] deep collaborations and connections to [46:52] folks who can do it better, [46:54] >> better positioned or have better, you [46:56] know, have a lot of experience or [46:57] backgrounds or whatever. And so I, you [46:59] know, I'm seeing that happen. And I [47:01] think like continuing to just hold that [47:03] grounding of that holistic approach and [47:06] to not and you know we'll we'll support [47:08] that process obviously in trying to [47:09] figure out all the pieces and it might [47:11] mean you know you put this thing down [47:13] today to build these for the next couple [47:14] years and you pick it back up right like [47:16] the actual how that actually unfolds but [47:18] I keep I think keeping that center and [47:19] I'm thinking about Minneapolis as a [47:21] potentially as a comparison right but [47:23] like keeping that northstar maybe to use [47:26] an overused Minnesota term but like that [47:29] is really that is really unique about [47:31] ONS the commitment to the holistic [47:34] approach. So, you know, that would be [47:35] one goal that would come up for me. [47:37] >> Yeah, we're I think to us we're we're [47:40] very much able to connect to community [47:42] and community organizations for that [47:44] holistic approach, but it's just being [47:46] part of government and and needing to [47:50] educate them or convince them that this [47:52] is the right approach and then having [47:55] that system within government built [47:57] around our approach. when government is [48:00] used to doing things differently. [48:02] >> Wouldn't it be nice if you had some data [48:03] or sort of like a report to show how [48:05] that might [48:07] >> like Right. [laughter] [48:09] >> Justin, what are your goals for St. [48:10] Paul? [48:11] >> That's pretty much it. Like I want to [48:12] see the community get a service that [48:14] that they everyone I've talked to about [48:17] Project Peace is like, I'm not sure what [48:19] that is, but it sounds like a really [48:20] good idea. [48:21] >> And so I just want to help the community [48:23] and the city get on the same page about [48:25] a really what seems to be a really good [48:27] idea. Mhm. [48:28] >> And um I'm thankful that Katie's digging [48:30] in and she's got a great team working on [48:32] this project and uh I think I think um I [48:35] think it's just a [music] good [48:36] conversation to have and we're heading [48:38] in the right direction. [48:40] >> Thank you you guys so much. St. Paul [48:42] citizens are out here working hard to [48:44] rehabilitate, intervene, and rebuild [48:46] safer neighborhoods. Again, this podcast [48:49] is about being able to connect you with [48:51] alternative public safety matters [48:53] programs and your local growth and [48:55] healing opportunities. If you'd like to [48:57] learn more about Minnesota Justice [48:59] Research Center, please visit [49:01] www.mnjrc.org. [49:05] And for more information about Office of [49:07] Neighborhood Safety, check us out at [49:09] staul.govs.