Call the North St. Paul Arts and Culture Commission to order for February 4th, 2026. Um Jordan, would you like to take call for us? Yes, >> I can. Um Tom Sonic >> present. >> Carrie Neto >> here. >> Ashley Perfect >> here. >> Sharon Clark Williams >> here. >> Raquel Sodto >> here. >> Uh Laura Strang. >> Uh where was I? Uh Eliza Verma >> here. >> Uh and u Arosco Garcia is absent as well as Troy Woods >> and our staff leazison Jordan. >> Uh so let's uh everybody get a chance to look over the agenda. Um any suggestions for changes? Anything you want to edit? If not, I'll look for a motion to adopt the agenda as is. >> I would like to move to adopt the agenda as is. Please move >> by Kerry. >> I second. >> Second by Raquel. All in favor say I. >> I. >> Opposed. Okay, we got the agenda adopted. Everybody get a chance to read through the minutes. Any suggestions, changes, edits? If not, we'll look for a motion to adopt uh to approve the minutes as listed. >> I'll motion to approve. >> Motion to approve by Ashley. >> Second that. >> Second by Sharon. All in favor say I. >> I. >> Opposed. Minutes adopt. Uh approved. Okay. Meeting open to the public. We don't have Well, we have one public meeting right now. He's >> busy with other things at the moment. Yeah, we don't have any public hearings. Commissioner, business and action items. So, we have first up commission training with city attorney Jack Brooksbank. Jack, take it away. >> All right. Good evening, Mr. Chairman. Uh the commission. My name is Jack Brooksbank. Uh I am your city attorney. uh here tonight to talk about everyone's uh favorite and most exciting topic uh public governance compliance laws. >> Yeah, >> the most fun. Um we have a few different topics to go through here. Um I'll kind of be walking through. I know you have the the memo that I provided. Um we update uh make sure it's all up to date. Um changes in the law. Um if at any point, you know, I will have sort of a formal question period at the end. If at any point you are not clear about something, please step in, raise your hand, start asking questions, talk over me, whatever. Um, I'm here to, you know, provide as much information and be as helpful to you as I can be. So, if there's anything that's not clear, you'd like more info on, just let me know at any point. We can make sure that I clear up anything. >> Great. >> Um, like I mentioned, a few different topics. Uh, first one we're talking about, um, the first two are slightly related. It's the open meeting law and then the Minnesota government data practices act. These are sort of public access laws. Um starting with the open meeting law. So this is you know a transparency type of a law. Uh making sure that public business is being done only in public that the public has you know a real opportunity to see the decisions participate in the decision-m understand why and what is going on. And so the basic rule um which I will then spend several more minutes explaining um but it sounds really simple when I say it is uh all meetings of public bodies must be open to the public. Now again I'm a lawyer I like to uh make simple things complicated. Uh so we have some definitions to go through there. Um so first of all uh what is a public body? public body is um other than uh sort of the state government. They have their own public meeting requirements for the for our purposes. Public body is the city or any uh boards or commissions or committees of the city. And so as a commission of the city uh that does include you. And the second important thing to keep in mind is what is a meeting? Uh a meeting is any um any time where there is a quorum of the commission. So that's more than half of the members. Uh and those members are making a decision or discussing city business or obtaining information on city business. So basically any communication involving what you do as a commission counts as a meeting if there are at least four of you on the same communication. um that does not that definition does not change based on how that communication is happening. So if it is an email, uh if it is a text message, if it is a phone call, um if it is uh people chatting in the hallway, um there is an exception. If there are three of you, that's not a quorum, and you're at the grocery store and you see a fourth member, you know, walking down the aisle, that's sort of a chance meeting, that doesn't count. You're not in trouble for that. But anything where you are sort of actively discussing business before the commission and again it's a pretty broad definition of what counts as business before the commission. It's it's basically any anything that the commission handles on an official basis. Uh >> when you say a public body that is subject to the open meeting law is more board does that mean broad or should that be broad? Sorry >> that should be broad. Okay. >> Confirming. Thanks. And Jack, I think this is one thing that that we always struggle with for clarification. So it's that idea that uh um like you mentioned the grocery store example. So, like, could four or more of us uh show up at Newman's together if we didn't talk about city business? Or, you know, is it because is it automatically the assumption that if there are four or more of us together that city business could come up so it's automatically dangerous? >> So, there I have two pieces of advice here. So the one the the real sort of narrow analysis is there is an exception within the statute for sort of chance or social meetings. The more practical advice is if there are four of you at Newman's and you are talking about you know social things variety of subjects uh it's very hard to prove that you at no point talked about city business. Mhm. >> Uh and so, you know, my my advice would be um to be very very careful about, you know, any potential quorum. Um one of the things that goes into, you know, when we're talking about public transparency laws like the open meeting law is the analysis always talks about that the purpose of the open meeting law is to prevent both corruption but also the appearance of corruption. Mhm. >> And so we are, you know, even if you are being very scrupulous to not talk about anything related to city business, you know, if we have other residents who are seeing, you know, a quorum of a city commission somewhere that is not a noticed city meeting, >> having some kind of an in-depth conversation, you know, that's the kind of thing that starts to get pretty sticky. And so our recommendation is that if there is going to be a quorum somewhere that should be noticed as a meeting. Uh and so for example for the city council um if we have three members of the city council uh you know attending a fundraising night for the fire department or something like that we notice that as a as a meeting. >> You notice that as a meeting? Would it be the same circumstances like we all show up for uh the fall roundup parade and we're all walking together or we are at uh the autumn arts festival all working together at that is that kind of >> so it it depends on how what you kind of what you mean by together there right if you are if just all of you are at the fall arts festival somewhere Mhm. >> Um that does not count. You know, you're you're all just attending the event. Um the fact that you could see each other as a quorum, that's not really enough to be a meeting. Um if you are all working in the same tent somewhere, I would notice that as a public meeting. >> H okay. >> And it's pretty it's it's not the most ownorous requirement in the world. You can talk to Jordan. Um the city is very practiced at sending out these meetings. Um, it's a, you know, three-day advance notice if you know you're all going to be somewhere. So, again, if you know you're all going to be, you know, at the volunteer tent for the arts festival, um, or something to that effect, just let Jordan know. We'll post it. As long as you post it, um, and, you know, include a quick description of, you know, the the Arts and Culture Commission will be at the volunteer tent volunteering. >> And then would we have to provide minutes of that? uh not necessarily. So there there are minute requirements based on taking action. If you are not act if there are no actions taken there's not necessarily a requirement to have minutes for something. Um for something like you know a more formal meeting like this I would always recommend that you know there be some minutes happening. Um, but again for for something where you know you're passing out papers for the u fall festival or something to that effect, you know, I don't think you need to be keeping minutes of how many pamphlets you handed out or or something to that effect. Um, but you know, again, we just want to make sure that we're, you know, we're kind of being transparent about what is going on with official business, >> right? >> Um, sort of, you know, moving along. Another one that can really kind of >> another social So the easy answer it's just something where I can see that coming to be an issue for us is we have arts night. I showed up at art night, art night. And then I looked up and in walked Raquel. I didn't know she had signed up to make blankets. We were both there. There was just the two of us. So, yay, that worked. But it could conceivably have been more. And that can easily happen. Or I'm thinking like at the car show, um, we don't notice. Yeah. On big truck night, they know that I believe we say we're going to be there, correct? >> Y. Um what happens when we show up at other things on car show night? You know that we may not say anything or we may just spontaneously decide, yeah, this is a good night to walk downtown. >> But all under the random social just like the grocery store. >> Yes. So, like the grocery store example, if you just if there are four of you who just happen to be at a car show night, um I that you know is sort of a chance encounter type of a thing, that would not require a notice. For something like art night where there is a recurring event that happens. I would recommend um as soon as you know you are going to an art night, I would recommend letting Jordan know about that. And then if there are four people who are going to be there, I would recommend noticing that as a public meeting. I mean it's and I I understand and I something that I might say again when we talk about the data practice act is this is inconvenient and I I understand and I appreciate that but that sort of just you know that's that sort of just is the rules um that we have been given by the legislature and what we have to do to follow that. So to some extent it is just going to be inconvenient. >> Yeah. One aspect of it I never really understood about the open meeting law. North St. Paul is not a gigantic place. >> So I show up at the play at North High. >> Oh my god. >> I see it. I see literally everybody else here would just avoid each other or just say hi and then keep going. That's one thing I I never really understood that. >> Yeah. Again, chance, social encounter. If it's not >> I mean, it's chance, but we're all there. There's the break, there's where you sit, there's >> a wide variety of things. Um, >> in those type of, >> you know, I certainly would not, um, >> but it's not a city sponsored event. >> Yeah, it's not necessarily a city sponsored event. I would not walk up to your fellow commissioners and say, "Hey, may how about that meeting last week?" Um, if you happen to see people out in public, but if you happen to all be at the same school play and it's intermission and you're standing in line and you say, "Oh, isn't this play really good?" That's that's social encounter. That's nothing to do with, you know, it has to be a quorum and there has to be some degree of official business. Again, we recommend to stray as far from official business as possible as sort of from a from a your your safety and the city's safety kind of a perspective. you know, just sort of um what I always say when litigation starts to come on the horizon is we might win the argument, but what we really want is we don't even want to have the argument. Um and so that's kind of where we're coming from from, you know, if you know you're all going to be at an art night, let Jordan know. We'll post a notice. Um if you know you're all going to be at a play, something that's totally unconnected with the city, I don't think that needs to be necessarily noticed as a meeting. just because you all happen to be at the same thing. But again, uh don't seek out your fellow comm if you're at the play. Don't seek out your fellow commissioners and talk about art and culture commission stuff while you're there. Um one of the other things that can really trip people up is what's called a serial communication or a serial meeting. So that is when you know one person talks to one other person who talks to one other person who talks to one other person. Now we have four people in the chain of communication. and the Minnesota courts have held that that that counts as a meeting. So even though no in no single person has talked to a quorum of the commission because these communications have been sort of passed along that now does count as um as a meeting as something that is subject to the open meeting law as something that has to be you know disclosed in advance basically. >> So would that count once we hit four? Yes. Um so yeah, so once you hit four people that is that counts as a meeting. Uh and so again what we always recommend is um it just you know stay out of it, right? And so um keep your official communications through official channels. If you find something that, you know, if um Maplewood has a cool new mural on a building or something, instead of texting it to one other member who might text it around, um again, send that to Jordan, that can be distributed from the staff side to all of you separately. Um and then because it's not going between commissioners, um that then is not a meeting that would never need to be disclosed. Uh another one that can happen, um is Facebook posts. Someone makes a Facebook post about something, one commissioner responds, another commissioner responds. We have four commissioners in the comments of a Facebook post. That Facebook post is now a public meeting. >> Um, again, this law is very far-reaching as public officials and it can be kind of annoying and inconvenient, but that's just what the rules are. Um so you know really trying to be um pretty diligent about you know when and where are you communicating about commission business. Um, >> the thing to be aware of is if somebody suspects that was going on, chain text, chain emails and it gets into court, those devices can be I don't want to say confiscated, but at least investigated and you lose your phone, you lose your computer for a while because somebody's checking your data. And I'll kind of go into that with the next big topic we have is the data practice act. Again, these things interact, but um you know to kind of get the preview of any communications made on commission business are, you know, sort of government business. That's government data and that is something that if requested would have to be compiled and disclosed to the public. Uh and so again, you know, just being really careful about when and where you as members of a public body are communicating about things that might go in front of this commission. >> So is it just our comm so for the Facebook example, you know, there's a North St. Paul Facebook group. If we're commenting, say it's something about the city, but not necessarily our commission stuff. So, comment as a private citizen about something going on in the city and there's four of us. Does that count or is it just our commission's business? >> I I believe it would just be things that might come before this commission. So, your role as as the arts and culture commission um you know, if someone has a post about what day city elections are happening or something to that end, >> water chlorination came to mind. >> Um yeah, snow removal, those sorts of things. um because you have you are not you do not have any government authority to hear that >> um that then would not be as much of a problem. So it's you know it's f focused on your role on the arts and culture commission >> um with again keeping in mind that you know you can do it right but if somebody gets angry about it it can still be a a really big pain. Um and so we want to be we want to be so in the clear that there isn't even an argument to make about it. >> Sure. Absolutely. Thank you. >> Um like I mentioned uh notice requirements um not really that ownorous. Um if you think there's going to be something where a b you know some event where you think a bunch of you might want to attend u just let Jordan know. We can post the notice. Um it's not it's it's much easier to post the notice than it is to um you know do cleanup if it turns out that we should have posted the notice later on. >> Um I think >> Yeah. >> Yeah. for staff. >> Um, when you're having a public meeting, every public meeting has to be in public unless there is a specific reason um why it will be closed to the public. That's kind of a list of of p um reasons to close it there. Um I don't think any of those are necessarily going to come before the arts and culture commission. So, for the most part, I would say for your business, just kind of expect everything to be, you know, something that is going to be happening in public. Um, you know, you're not doing a lot of, uh, union negotiations or, uh, purchase of real property. Um, in terms of, you know, potential consequences for this, like I mentioned, litigation is just a huge pain in the butt, no matter what the outcome is. So it just being in litigation is a big drain on resources, big drain on time. Um you know can have impacts of you know someone might have to come make a scan of your phone or a scan of your laptop. Uh that can be you know a real disruption. Um if it is found that someone has intentionally violated the open meeting law, intentionally tried to to work around or to discuss something you know not at a noticed public meeting. um that can involve uh individual fines which the under the statute the city is not allowed to pay. So if something like that were you know if one of you were to be convicted of something like that um that would be your money and we the city is not allowed to cover it for you. >> So should that be must which must not be paid by the city. >> Uh must not or may not mean basically the same thing. um you know we we don't have the option whether you say must not or may not. Um then there's additional potential penalties uh costs and attorneys fees um has a much higher dollar amount but that portion could then be covered by the city. Uh although um you know in general we would prefer that that money goes to you know art projects and and those sorts of things and not to litigation. Um but so there, you know, there there's some real penalties there for violations. So again, we just want to be really careful about this stuff. Um turning the page again, um this the open meeting law really dovetales with the data practices act. Uh Minnesota government data practices act is if you've ever heard of FOYA, that's the the federal lawsuit where you can make a Freedom of Information Act request. This is the the Minnesota state law equivalent of that. uh and again it is very very broad. So all government data is presumed to be public unless there is a specific reason why it can be withheld from the public. And government data means everything uh collected, created, received, maintained or disseminated by state or local government regardless of physical form, storage media or conditions of use. um whether it is government data depends on the purpose of the communication. It does not depend on you know the form or the device it was created on or anything like that. So if you as a commissioner are texting someone about commission business on your personal cell phone that is government data. If you're emailing someone about commission business on your personal email that email is personal data or is government data. So just the fact that it is on your personal device does not mean that it is exempt from the requirements. Um in general the main requirements you know as as is relevant for you is that um any public data can be requested by any member of the public and the city has to go through everything to you know there there are certain classifications of data that are not available to the public. So, we have to go through and make sure there's not any non-public information there, but then it has to be disclosed. Uh, and so again, that's, you know, that's our meeting minutes, that's our agendas, that's anything that's in your packet. Um, that's any communications that, you know, you're having with each other about what's going on on the commission. Uh and so just again what I what I really recommend um and it is it's inconvenient and it's kind of a bother especially you know today's day and age where we all have smartphones and we're all very plugged in um is just to stick with you know you have your city of North St. Paul email address and just keep everything on that and don't mix, you know, if someone sends you an email to your personal email, forward it on to your city email and then reply from your city email and just like keep your personal emails, keep your personal devices just as cut out of um you know what's what's going on as possible. >> Well, that's not really possible for us because we do not have computers. So, at the very least, our personal computer is going to be subject to discovery if there's an investigation because that's where our email resides potentially, although um with a city email address that the entirety of that account will also be on the city servers. And so, if someone is asking for your official emails, we don't necessarily need to go to your computer to get that. We can get that. we can talk to our IT department and get that, you know, sort of from without having to go to you directly versus, you know, if you've been texting about commission business, we would have to go grab your phone and make a copy of that and run searches on that. Um, and so again, that's why my recommendation really is to keep everything possible on that official email address. Um so that if someone comes in with a data request and says I want all communications relating to you know this that or the other project um you want to just be able to say literally everything I have is on the email you know city it can go do a search of that um I don't have anything else there um because again you know text messages emails from a personal email address um you know, photos that are on your phone and nowhere else. Um those are the kinds of things where your your personal information is going to be more inshed in your official information and and separating those two is again if there is a request for it, that is where the real headache can can be. And we want to, you know, we're we're here to try and, you know, allow you to do your jobs and not we don't want to run you through the ringer of, you know, taking your phone to make copies and and dig through all of that. And so that's why, you know, it's why we have these trainings. That's why I'm I'm here is just, you know, for for your own protection. That's why I'm giving you this advice. >> What happens to all of our emails when we leave? Uh >> um I think the emails get closed technically, but then I get access to them or whoever is assigned to it or >> they're not they will be archived. Yeah, >> they will be archived. The city has a um an overall sort of data retention policy. eventually um you know if there's not a request for them, if there's not um you know litigation involving what's there, eventually they are disposed of per the data retention schedule, but it's I forget the exact timeline of >> five or >> Yeah. five or seven years. Um after the fact. Yeah. Um so that's uh we can go into more detail about the different categories of data and how requests work and all of that but as far as you're concerned mostly it's just what is government data and knowing that you know if there is a request we have to go round up all of the government data that exists and that could potentially you know depending on what kind of communications you are engaged in that could potentially involve your personal devices. Uh and so, you know, again, it's inconvenient, but I I really would recommend not um you know, texting other commission members or um you know, communicating outside of your city emails. Uh moving on to our next topic. >> Question is allowed sub message chain emails get money when we're talking about art projects and like little changes constantly. So the so the question is about uh and I'm just saying this again so that if there's a recordings people know the question is uh question is about uh teams messages. Um yeah there's nothing that would prevent you from doing that. Those messages are government data that is discoverable. If there are four people on a team's thread, that is a meeting that has to be disclosed. >> But there's not it's an instant messaging like that is not necessarily treated differently than emails. >> But for subitties, we have three or less. Um so then it would be through the city's emails chain which would be easily discoverable. I was just wondering. >> Yeah. Yep. So yeah. So, anything through your city email account, if that's teams messages or emails or anything through there, that will all be kept on the city's system. Um, and those are kept. That surprises people sometimes that their team's messages are searchable. Uh, but they are. Um, >> but yeah, >> sure are. >> What about what would your recommendation are? Do photos count? Because I know we have a lot of events and sometimes social media they want us to send photos to the city for promotion. So if we're using our personal phone for and email it via the city email is the photo like discoverable because now it's on our phone. >> Uh yes. And so what I would what I would recommend is I would recommend that you take the photo and then you you know if you have the email on your phone or something use your city email address and email it to email it to Jordan, email it to yourself, something like that so that it's on the system >> and then I would recommend that you delete it off your phone. >> Okay. And that's acceptable. Cool. >> And then because you're not, you know, you're not destroying it. You're basically just storing it in a different place. >> Okay. >> And that place is the city's server. And so then again, um, you know, as long as you've been diligent about that, someone comes and says, you know, hey, do you know, please give us everything you have about, you know, art night last week. Um, and you really you just want to be in a place to say, yep, everything is on the email server. Okay. >> I have nothing else. >> Thank you. >> No more questions on the first couple. Kind of move on to some of those. So, we have conflicts of interest. Um again this is kind of the broad rule for everybody. Um you know uh generally speaking um there's sort of two categories of conflict of interest and how those have to be um handled. Um if there's a contract being made with somebody versus if it's in a non-contractual situation. Um contracts are stricter. If you are entering into a contract with somebody, it's a stricter rule on um you know sort of whether you're allowed to participate in general. Again, if you think that you might have a conflict of interest, if you have some kind of a tie to somebody who is going to be coming before the commission with any kind of request, recommendation, um any kind of business, um in general, uh the best thing to do is to just disclose that you have a potential conflict of interest and then sit out, uh whatever business item, um you might have a conflict of interest Or generally speaking, what that looks like is, you know, you you get to a meeting and you just sort of lean forward and you say, "Hello, Mr. Chairman. Um, I believe I have a conflict of interest for this and I'm going to recuse myself." And then you stand up and you go sit in the audience until the um agenda item is complete and then you come on back up. Um the one of the important things about that is that if you are disqualified from voting on something for a um conflict of interest reason it reduces what counts as a quorum for that thing. So if there are only you know if there are four people at a meeting um you would need four people to be you know more than half or one half the commission. If one person has a conflict of interest and there's only three left, it reduces it down to now you need, you know, two of the three votes instead of three of the four to pass it. Um, and so it it's sort of a way to avoid some gridlock on, um, some of those items. um for non-contractual situations, uh which um spoiler alert to another couple of items down the road. Um everything that this commission does is a non-contractual situation because you do not have the authority to enter into contracts. Um for a non-contractual situation, there's sort of, you know, it's it's a bit mushier. There's some different factors that you can consider. you can have sort of a conflict as long as it's um you know a potential conflict. It doesn't count as a full disqualifying conflict depending on um some of these factors here. In general, what a potential but not actual conflict looks like is um something that will affect you to the same amount it will affect anyone else who lives in the city of North St. Paul. um you know it it generally speaking that's not going to be held to be a conflict because it it doesn't affect you differently than it would affect anybody else versus a more targeted. So if you're um you know if you're voting for art that you will see in town that everyone will see in town that's not considered conflict of interest. If you're voting for, you know, a mural that will go on your house, then that would be a conflict of interest and you got to step back from that. Um, best practices again, um, it's much easier, you know, if if you disclose that you think you have a conflict of interest and you sit something out and then after the fact somebody says, "I actually don't know if that was a conflict." Uh, we just sort of say, "Oh, well." And we move on with our lives. uh if you don't disclose and don't sit it out and then someone says actually I think that was a conflict of interest uh it can potentially be a real major headache and so again this you know the lawyer's advice is air on the side of over disclosure um and not under um gift laws again fairly straightforward um interested person which is anyone who might have business before the city. Cities do a lot of business. So interested person is generally speaking just about anybody. Um cannot give a gift to a public official. Um local official includes appointed officials. That would include you. Um gift means money, it means objects, it means food, it means anything of value. Um there are some exceptions to that have some kind of you know list of them there. Um generally speaking anything of nominal value um anything that's you know less than $5 does not necessarily count. So if you are at um you know a conference or something and someone hands you the like you know branded stress ball um that does not count as a gift um because that it's nominal or like a sticker. Um, those do not count as gifts. They're too small. They don't count. Um, but food does. So, if if somebody wants to says, "Hey, I'd love to talk about my art project. Can I buy you dinner and talk you to you about it?" Um, no, they cannot. You can go to dinner, but you do have to pay for your own dinner. Um, unless you are giving a speech somewhere, then they can buy you dinner. But in general, food does count as a gift. Um gifts given to the to the city have to be given to the city. They cannot be given to any individual person or any individual part of the city. Although there can be conditions attached to a gift. So if somebody wants to give a gift to do create some piece of public art um that gift has to be accepted by a resolution of the city council. Uh and then the city council has to make the decision to you know put that gift towards you know whatever the the thing that the donor wanted it to be put towards. Um now obviously as the arts and culture commission someone wants to bring something here talk about is this a good idea if you want to recommend you know acceptance of that gift recommend that you pursue that project to the city council that is very much why you're here. Uh but again it it does have to go through an actual acceptance by the council. >> What if it were a monetary gift as a donation? Donation may be subject to conditions from the donor and earmarred for a specific purpose. Are those allowable? >> Yes. Um again with acceptance by the city council >> and then the city council, you know, is sort of bound by whatever those conditions from the donor are. Um, but on a formal level, it does have to be accepted by the city council and then the city council decides what to do with it. >> Jack, on that, a common one is people want to donate $100 or $500 to the fire relief fund >> or the police department. >> Same thing. They go to the council, council adopts it, makes a resolution, and then direct where those funds are going to go. Same concept. Mhm. >> So, are we allowed to fund raise for the arts commission? >> No. >> Okay. So, we can accept donations, but we can't ask for >> So, it um part of gift law, part of kind of um the general kind of common law of local officials and then city law um is uh the government is not allowed to fundra. Um there are certain very specific exceptions to that, oftentimes fire relief associations. Uh but in general um it's seen as as potentially sort of a way for the government to um you know shake people down for money for something. >> Uh and so to avoid again corruption or appearance of corruption. Um that is something that uh is not allowed. Um so >> Carrie, the government doesn't ask for money, it just takes it. >> I think what you're thinking of Carrie is like the police foundation or something like that. Those are nonprofit entities that are created separate from the city itself. >> Yeah. So if we had our own nonprofit that could fund raise on our behalf. >> Yes. So, so there might be something like a, you know, uh, uh, independent nonprofit that is, you know, the local arts council or something like that or the, um, chamber of commerce might want to do a mural somewhere. They can fund raise and then come to the city and say, "We have a bunch of money to do a mural. Can we donate this and have you do it?" And the city could agree to that, but we can't be um, you know, asking for donations, passing out flyers, knocking on doors. Um it's it's it's seen as too coercive if the government shows up to your door and says, "Hey, do you want to donate to this project?" >> Historical society. >> Yes. So um historical society can um fire relief association can. There are certain um I don't I think it's like we can't specifically fund raise, but we can like have a jar out for Fourth of July fireworks. >> Um but very very sort of limited specific. >> Yeah. >> Um you have to go find a statute that says and this part of the city may fund raise for this purpose. >> Y >> is the historical society a 501c3? Is that how they're able to do that? No, I I think they I forget exactly. Historical societies get just sort of special treatment in some of the statues. >> Yeah. >> Statutes. And so there are statutes that just say the historical society can >> do the >> X Y and Z action. >> Cool. >> Um which there's there is often no rhyme or reason for a lot of those statutes. Um, the one I always use as an example is, uh, the city cannot generally put on entertainment, but the city can put on free music. Why can the city put on free music? Because there's a statute that says the city can provide free music. >> No cover charge. We can't charge for it. And it can't be any other kind of entertainment. We can't put on a light show or anything like that. Just music. Um, number five. Um, this is something usually we talk more in depth about with the city council, but I thought it was something that would be worth touching on here. Kind of role of the the city manager. So, North St. Paul is a city manager system, which is slightly different, a little bit more unusual. Um the two in general in Minnesota cities either have a city administrator or a city manager. Uh a city administrator is sort of more of a liaison to the council which has more of an active role. Um city manager is more of like the CEO um kind of analogy and then the the city council is more sort of board of directors. Um and so in a city manager system, city manager has a lot more direct authority over um city staff, over kind of day-to-day operations. Um additionally, uh the city manager has direct purchase authority. So the city manager can go buy things uh as long as it's under, I believe, $20,000. Uh city manager does not have the authority to enter into contracts. So, um the example that has come up before here, uh if there's some mural that is being painted on, uh electrical boxes or whatever, if it's just, hey, we need two gallons of white paint, the city manager can send someone to the hardware store to go buy two gallons of white paint. We do not need any city council involvement on that. Um, if it is, uh, we found an artist who wants to do this mural. Can we hire them to paint the mural? That is not a purchase. And so, even if it is a small dollar amount overall, you know, we're still contracting for services to have someone come in and perform a service for us by making that painting. And so, that is something that still has to be approved by the city council. Um those are the approval by the city council and purchase by the manager uh are the two ways that the city is allowed to spend money. Um you will notice that you are not one of those two ways. Uh you do have a budget that is given to you every year by the city council. Uh that is that is basically planning from the city council. The formal way that that works is just the city council knows that you are going to recommend projects throughout the year and they have decided in advance how many of those projects they want to pursue or what the dollar value of those projects they want to pursue is. Um but again everything that is going to spend taxpayer money has to be either a purchase of supplies by the city manager or approved by the city council. Um, and so, you know, we have a pretty um streamlined system for that. If you have a an artist you want to bring in to do a demo or um, you know, paint a mural or, uh, do a utility box or something. Um, you can sort of let the city know that you would like to do that. We can pass it up to the city council, get it approved, and kind of pass it back down. But it does have to be communicated to, you know, to Jordan and your staff leaison. It has to be escalated up to, um, you know, Brian, the city manager, uh, and be approved by, um, city council. City council is generally pretty, you know, favorable to public art. Um, they like having it. And so I haven't seen a lot of things where there's um a lot of conflict over getting that approval as much as just remembering that that approval does have to does have to happen. Uh additionally, I don't uh think I necessarily >> Jack, can I add one more thing? >> Yes. One other important difference, at least in my world, between city administrators and city managers for hiring and firing in a city with a city administrator, that has to be approved by the city council. And you can get an offer from the city administrator, but the city council ultimately has to approve it. Where a city manager can directly hire and fire someone without city council approval. They can say we you can say we like you let's work out a deal and you can start in two weeks and city council doesn't have to be involved. They may want to be but they're not required to be. >> Um one other thing I'll just kind of mention while we're talking about some of these these spending things is um and I I I might send some follow-up um language here. So in order again for the city to spend money on something there has to be what's called it has to be a a public purpose expenditure. Um there are two requirements for that which means number one it has to be for a public purpose and number two the city has to have authority to spend the money in that way. So a public purpose is something that benefit the primary benefit is for the community at large and not for an individual person or an individual property. And then you need that and the authority to spend the money. And so for that again like I mentioned there's just big long lists of statutes that give cities different spending authorities. And so you just have to go to that look at that list and see uh what is there. I know um you know people have had some really great ideas for sort of ways to um promote local businesses, promote local artists, those sorts of things. But as a city, we can't really do like advertising for local businesses. Uh, and that includes, you know, some of these kind of, you know, more creative ways to try and improve that. And, and I'm not saying that those things are bad or that they don't strengthen the community, just that we are limited in what we can spend taxpayer money on. You know, again, the legislature only lets us do so many things. Uh, and so we have to go find the specific authority um that we have for that. And so we do have direct statutory authority to erect public art. Um but if we're getting sort of beyond you know that sort of very direct we are putting up a piece of public art for the public to enjoy. Um you know we have to kind of take that step back and see do we act is there actually a statute that we can point to that says we are allowed to do this and because we need we need both of them. And so it's not just enough to say, well, we think this benefits the public. Um, we have to say, well, we also have to go look at, do we have a statute that lets us do that? Um, last thing I will touch on briefly, uh, Robert's rules of order. They are deadly boring, but they are a good way to, um, kind of manage things. Um there's a lot written here in general. Um just the way that you know sort of public business tends to operate. Someone makes a motion that says here is what I think this body should do. That needs a second. Then there is discussion. Close of discussion. The chair will call for a vote. Then there is a vote. Um there there aren't necessarily a ton of legal requirements on how you have to manage a meeting. Uh there are some requirements. So any um any action taken um so any um money spent there is a statute that says there must be uh a record of the vote authorizing that spending. Now again um that all happens at the city council level. So that one doesn't necessarily apply to you. Uh but as a general best practice, just sort of any any official action taken by um the commission, there should be some kind of a record of that. Usually what that looks like in the minutes is it says um you know sort of action proposed by you know commissioner uh seconded by commissioner um passes unanimously. Right. If there's no real dissension in the ranks, that is enough to count as recording the vote. You don't have to like, you know, go down and take it's called a roll call vote is when you go and you call everyone's name and they vote individually. Um if the chair calls for vote and just says all those in favor and everyone says I um you can just say well that's unanimous and we don't have to you know go have everyone sign it individually or anything like that. But it's good just from a recordkeeping perspective. pretty good at that, right? >> Okay. I want to ask you a couple of questions regarding the money and approval. Okay. >> Yes. >> We of course don't approve the money for the projects that goes to city council. There are times where we want to move money from one bucket to another. Let's say we want to move it from art night to mural. That comes before a vote, right? when we say, "Okay, we can afford to take $200 away from Art Night because we're not going to use it all, but we could benefit from it in our what we've allocated for mural, then we vote." Correct. Or do we just say yes? So, two sort of two potential scenarios here. So, one of them is just sort of your internal recordkeeping. Um, we have this amount budgeted for art night, we have this amount budgeted for a mural. We think actually it would be better to not spend as much on art night, spend more on the murals when we get there. That's just a you deciding what you're going to recommend to the council. Um, that would be a vote of this commission, but not necessarily require city council approval. Once you actually get to, you know, um, here is the contract for the mural, which is $200 more than was budgeted for city council. The reason for that is we decided to not spend those $200 on art night and spend it over here instead. Um, you know, now it is in front of the city council for them to approve. Uh, and that would go to the city council. So, it it has to get appro approval before the money actually gets spent on either art night or on the mural. Um, but if you just decide that you don't want to spend as much money on art night throughout the year, that would not necessarily have to be approved. >> Okay. I think I understand what you're saying. Uh, that's on the record for us when we make these adjustments. So when it's presented to council, then we can say, hey, this is why it's more than what we originally had allocated. All right. Yes. And here's how we here here it's why more than what we originally allocated and here's how that still fits within the budget. >> Okay. >> Because we've moved the money from somewhere else. >> Okay. The next question is, so when we buy things like for the art cart or because I don't know, we're going to be at or we're going to go to an event and we decide we want to pass out something at the event. Okay. Each of those are voted on, correct? So, we're going to pay I don't know for it seems like we need white paint for something because we were doing project snow. We were doing a little snowman. So, do we vote and say, "Yep, it's it's okay. we're gonna spend $10 and go get white paint for these snowmen or is that a dimminimous amount and then we don't have a vote. So, um, again, sort of, you know, we're talking about the, you know, who has to ultimately authorize something for something like $10 of paint. Like I mentioned, city manager and city staff have some degree of purchase authority. So, um, you know, if you just want to sort of direct, um, you know, Jordan, um, we have a purchase policy of how staff can purchase things. You know, there's a budget for that. Um it doesn't necessarily legally require that there be a you know sort of a vote on the specific um you know we were not going to vote to authorize one gallon of white paint um is not necessarily required. Uh it is something that I think would be worth discussing as a body, making sure everyone is on the same page of uh you know okay we you know we have this idea for what we want to do at art night we think it is going to cost about this much money um you know so long as everyone is on the same you know everyone on the commission is on the same page of that is where that money is going. >> Okay. I just wanted to clarify when in regards to money when we needed to say what what are the magic words what we needed to say out loud because it seems frequently when there's problems with the city particularly smaller one it's always about how the money was spent and so I wanted to just have you say out loud and clarify for us systematically when you guys do this would you guys please take a vote and not just direct Jordan would you on this you can just asked Jordan, hey, can you go get this? But do it publicly on the first Tuesday or first Wednesday of the month at 6:30 so the entire city knows this is what you're doing. And and that's all I was trying to clarify right now. >> And and again, you can never be too transparent. Um and so, you know, you have been given sort of a you know, a budget has been allocated for uh public arts events. Uh some of those expenditures will need direct council approval. Some of them, you know, staff uh can for supplies again, right, where if we're we're just going to a store and we're buying something off the shelf, we don't necessarily need council approval. Uh but I do think it is it is valuable as a commission to sort of set the tenor of, you know, if we're hosting an art night, what kinds of supplies do we want to be there? And then you don't necessarily have to every time there is an art night say, "Okay, and we're going to go buy, you know, the white paint is running low and the blue paint is running low, so go refill those." Um, as long as there's been sort of a high level discussion of, okay, at an art night, we're going to have some basic colors of paint and some glue and some scissors, um, or whatever you kind of want to to be there. Um, as long as sort of that higher level decision has been made, then staff can be responsible for sort of keep keeping those supplies topped up. >> Thank you. >> All right. Well, that was a lot, I know. Um, does anyone have any questions about any anything we've talked about today? anything else that you're curious about with, you know, kind of your roles as commissioners or how city government works? Do >> you have to do these with all the commissions? >> Uh I generally speaking, yeah, I'm I'm making the rounds at the moment. We usually do them every couple years or so. Um I'll be at uh parks and wreck in a couple of weeks and then planning commission in March. >> Nice. and the we did the city council um last fall, I think. >> All right. Well, if there are any questions, um certainly, you know, feel free to pass those on to Jordan or Ken, um if it's something that they aren't able to answer, um they are all in contact with me and so we'll make sure you get any answers and um let you move on with your evening then. Thank you very much for your time. >> Thanks, Jack. Appreciate it. >> Thanks, Jack. >> All right. Next up, we have a review of commission expectations with Ken Roberts. >> That would be me. I didn't put together a pretty set of documents, but I made a pretty PowerPoint that hopefully everybody can see. So yes, the what I want to touch on is the arts and culture commission expectations and it rolls into several things. Uh my screen here so as an introduction I want to review the expectations of the arts and culture commission and city staff. review the duties, roles, responsibility of the commission and staff persons. And my overall goal for this this evening uh with this meeting and discussion is to ensure the I'm going to say ACC for short and staff are working together toward promoting and increasing the city's artistic and cultural assets. So, first of all, these are couple of sections directly out of the city code that says were part of the code language that was put together to when the commission was formed. And the uh first one is the starting point that the city council declares as a matter of public policy is critical for the city to promote and increase the city's artistic and cultural assets by encouraging or participating in the selection and interpretation of public artwork, public arts events accepted otherwise provided in the chapter. the arts and culture commission shall advise city council and some of this is going to overlap with what Jack talked. So this is kind of our starting point and then the next point rolls into that. What's the purpose? Why are we here? The arts and culture commission is established to stimulate and encourage the creation, performance and appreciation of art and culture in the city and advise city council on arts related matters and promote positive e economic impact. the arts has in the community. I think everyone somewhat understands that, but these are the exact words right out of the city code. So, we best I always find best to go back see what the city code really says. There are 10 d or excuse me 11 duties listed in the code again uh for what the commission duties are. And there's several things there that are recommendations and advising and evaluate and recommend. Number 11 there, the bottom one to assist the city in raising funds for public and private resources for the funding of arts project in the city. That seems a little bit sketchy based on what Jack just said. >> So that might be something that'll have to be removed from the code. So we let's kind of not talk about number 11 for for now or just not go there. But all these I I and again I've been in the city nine months but I picked up on the all these other 10 are all things you do probably every month and probably even in between your meetings. I don't think there's anything new or different there than you would uh expect to be doing. Uh and again it's a lot of recommendations and advising and that kind of thing. I am not going to bore you with reading all those if afterwards if you want I can send this out to all the commissioners or Jordan will for me you can read all the words. So in summary the purpose and duties of the ACC as outlined in the city code provide clear expectations and duties for the commission. All actions and proposals of the ACC must follow the purpose, duties, and requirements outlined in the city code and must be consistent with their bylaws, which I don't touch on the bylaws. I know you all receive copies and if you don't have one, we can get you a copy. A lot of the bylaws, I don't want to say regurgitate, but re reinforce what's in the city code. So, in my time, we've it's been brought to my attention that there's been some issues and concerns. And a little bit of background. Uh, first of all, starting with city staffing, there's been by best count three community development directors and four commission liaison in the last four years here at the city. That has led to the training and retraining of city staff, learning about our roles and responsibilities, which I'm going to make the leap that possibly has led to inconsistent messaging and availability for commission duties and projects. Don't there's no one's fault there. That's just clearly a lot easier if somebody's in a role for three, four, five years uh consistently than staff knows what can be done and what can't be done. And it's been a challenge so far. As I said, I've been with the city about nine months and just over briefly overall I coordinate the activities and responsibilities of and staff for three commissions, the arts commission, playing commission and the parks and recreation commission. Uh I also am responsible for the department commission budgets. Uh do a lot of land use planning and zoning related projects that go to the plane commission and city council. And then I'm work on other city related projects as assigned by the city manager. Uh never know week to week something else can come up. I will say that the department administrative staff, Jordan, and our two other administrative assistants are very knowledgeable about the city, most city operations. They are always helpful whether someone's on the phone, in person, and they all work very well with other city staff in the public. And I personally think the city's very lucky to have three very good and knowledgeable administrative assistants. Their duties are very broad. They uh answer their respective direct phone lines and seven other telephone lines that come into the city. They take calls for the electric department if there's electrical outages. Public uh utilities if there's a water mane break, there's a snow plowing question or complaint. uh parks and parks reservations, a whole variety of things uh that they they're each department doesn't have their own receptionist. They the three uh under my umbrella of community services takes those calls and then they direct those calls to where they need to go or they can answer some of the questions. Recently, we've had a lot of questions about the chlorine in the water. They've been getting those calls and that t that all takes times. Complaints about snow removal or snow plowing. We get those calls. Sometimes they can answer them. Sometimes they forward them on to public works. They are also responsible for checking, distributing emails the city receives on several email accounts. Again, whether it's for electric or public works or the fire department, if people outside the city don't have the direct email address for a specific staff person, they go into a general email box, it's up to the staff, the ministry of staff to make sure those get out to the right place. or if there's a work order, say if there somebody needs something looked at, there's an electrical outage, they take those calls, contact the electric utility and get that uh looked at as soon as possible. And so with all that the available staff time for the lees and for the commission uh is 10 p 10 to 15% of their time which is only four to six hours per week for commission ACC commission matters as I outlined Jordan has a lot of other duties and sometimes this means the turnaround time for ACC projects or requests can be slowed or limited. It's other things. Again, if there's a power outage, there's a water main break, those become a higher priority than working on commission matters. What we have found again in my time here is that her time is often spends more than 15% of her time on ACC matters. Some weeks that's fine, other weeks it doesn't work because again there's other things that happen. So the commission knows the city does not approve of the use of overtime for any of the staff leaison to the commissions. They are eligible to get burn comp time for the extra hours they work. That's usually for the evening meetings like tonight or special events like the auto march festival or when we have the spring cleanup day and those kind of things. So, yes, they're working late hours, but then that means they're earning comp time, which becomes vacation time that they have to use or lose before the end of the calendar year. The other issue that's been talked about, I know somewhat regularly recently, are the project proposal forms. I I want to be clear that we as a staff want are intending to help they're intended to help staff help the commission. We need as a staff the requested preliminary information on the form to help with the budgeting, project review, and project timing. uh we'll touch on it briefly with the budget and the budgeting process, but that starts early in the year for the next calendar year and I'll get into the little more of that any time. And it's it I know I know for the commission it's a little bit of the chicken of the egg. We need some information, Jordan, again, primarily to help move projects through the review and approval process with city staff and ultimately the city council. We're not in any way intending the forms to be an impediment to getting projects approved. It's our firm belief that having completed project review forms will actually speed up the review and approval process. Is there some time invested? Is there some risk? Absolutely. As I' I've heard of a couple projects that get you think they're at the the finish line, they're going to go and then something comes up and then they're a nogo. That happens. But we can't take a project forward to city council or city manager if we don't have enough information. So the more information, information, research and information included on the form, the better for staff, the better for the project. they m you as commission members may not have a lot of information at the beginning but the more thorough the better. Uh and as as the process goes on as commission members get more information or Jordan has questions or I have questions the more we can keep that information train going the communication the better. Uh, I know I've been going quickly and I should have said like Jack said, if you have questions, you want to jump in, please do. I'm just babbling here, but I'm not not necessarily trying to ram this through. But this is the important thing. We will not as a staff do any work or research on a proposed project without a completed project form. We can't just work off a verbal idea that was brought up either in a meeting or via an email. Now, there may be and try to run with that project. We need we need information in writing. If the project's small, maybe it's a routine matter, maybe Jordan's done one of these before, whatever it is, we certainly could look at waving that requirement. But in general, we need information on the form to start our work as a city staff on that. And then the last point there, once we get a a form that has the information, again, as I touched on, if there's more information that comes about or you were able to contact someone and okay, now we found out this, we found out this, uh, regular consistent updates uh, about the project, the proposal via email is we we welcome that. We want that to help keep keep projects moving forward. Budget. We uh Jack talked about this. He has some great questions about the budget with his uh presentation. So, as I touched on, the budgeting process for the city starts in April and May. So, that'll be coming up quickly. and it goes through several months of reviews and preliminary and final budget and the final budget is adopted in December for the next calendar year. So that's why when Jordan and I have talked or Jordan has talked about timing, if we know if there are projects that are interesting or potential that you know that you'd like to see the commission and the city take on, the more we know now, the more we can include dollars for those in next year's budget. That that's the reality of the timeline. If now I know there's already mud money in this 2026 budget and so there may be things that can be done using 2026 but there's something significant or different that you you as a commission see that you want the commission to tackle or have the city approved. We need to start knowing about that sooner than later to try to get money in the budget for 2027. Also, the spending of all the budgeted dollars is not guaranteed for every year. If there's somebody has an idea, well, it happened last year. There was idea to do a mural. It didn't work out. Well, that that money just doesn't evaporate, but it doesn't necessarily get spent either. There are times where I've worked at other places that that money could be carried over to the next year. I don't know exactly how that money or those budgeted dollars are handled when they're not spent in a particular calendar year and that's something I can find out more about. But if a project takes several months to research and vet and go through the city review city manager legal at times the planning and approval can take several months. So again, we could be working on something in the next few months, get everything lined up, but by the time it's all figured out, we got a budget, we're ready to go, it's all approved, and it's say it's an outdoor mural or a box wrap, maybe it's October or November, now it's too late in the year. Well, if we get all the approvals done correctly, we can say it's all good. We'll have a contract and we'll have the art installed in the next year, and that's fine. But that's just the reality of how the city business is currently. And we're open to ideas to speed up the process. But uh that's that can happen. But that doesn't mean a project won't get done. It might just not get done in the same calendar year as all the approvals. Communications. Another issue I want to make sure the commission is aware of. If a member of the commission or the public has concerns, conflicts, or questions about Jordan or any other unresolved commission matter there to contact me by telephone or email. Do not send any concerns or questions about the liaison or any other ACC matters to other city staff persons. Jordan is your liaison. If she can't answer it, she'll work with me. will get you the information. Uh the proper starting point for most of these things is Jordan, but if it's something you're concerned about what Jordan's doing or not doing, contact me. That's part of my role as her supervisor uh working with her and the department. And I've instructed other staff persons in the department to ignore any such communication if they get any. Where did my mouse go? There it is. So wrap it up. We want as a staff the commission to succeed in the betterment of the city. We want the ACC members to help meet their purpose to stimulate and encourage creation, performance, and appreciation of art and culture in the city. We want projects, we want to help projects get reviewed, approved, and implemented. And we want all the uh commission members to stay motivated, confident, equipped for success. However, as a staff, we can support that. We uh we certainly acknowledge and appreciate the diverse skills, backgrounds, and expectations of the commission members. Seven different people with seven different backgrounds. That's great. But and we also want to foster the sense of value and inclusion amongst the members. And I'll speak for Jordan and myself and everybody else that I've worked with. We are committed to collaborating with commission members to resolve the issues and staying connected with all the commissioners. Again, we want projects to succeed. Bottom line is city staff need the commission's help to help you and that's to get projects done among other things. So, let's see what else that I think. Oh, wait there. Yeah, there it is. That's all I had, but I'm happy to take questions. Anybody have questions? Okay. If not, we'll move on to item C unless you have anything else, Ken? >> No, thank you. >> Okay, so we have subcommittee updates. Um, so uh our first uh initiative area is the public art project. Is there anything updated there, Penny Press Machine? >> Uh, we set a date for going to city council, I believe March 17th, and we'll uh get materials to Jordan if we have want anything to show. >> Okay. >> I guess I'll find figure that out. >> Anything else? No art. >> Okay. And murals? >> Nothing. >> Nothing this month. Uh, utility boxes, any updates? Um, not really. I just want to ask a quick question of Jordan if I could proceed with a different one since I've gotten no response on the other one. >> Was it the one that you sent me today or >> what was it? >> Uh, as for >> Oh, I got you. Yes, go for it. >> Okay. All right. So, I'm going to I have submitted the first form for uh Minnesota photography and I I expect to get that back from you. I don't I don't think it's complete. So you can give me hints on like how to improve it >> and then we can like move ahead with one either uh that is uh just general Minnesota any medium or one for children and we'll see how that goes. Okay, >> perfect. Yeah, works for me. >> That's all I got. >> Okay, art card. Oh. Um, Raquel and Ashley and I met and we are um proposing that we blend the art card and art night into one >> Oh, yeah. >> amazing subcommittee. >> A merger. Yep. >> Oh, I see. Okay. >> So, because you know when we lost Amanda, we lost a really great artist. And I'm not saying that, you know, of course, all of us are artists in our own right. Um, but she was somebody who could come up with these ideas of activities for us to do on the fly and lead them and find other artists to help her and be in charge of ordering all the materials. You know, remember when she would bring those printouts and it' be like, "Here's three ideas. What should we do?" And um, we're just not to that point where we can replace her. So, um, we reached out to a couple of, um, individual teaching artists and also Kid Create Studio in Woodbury. And, um, it sounds like it it will be possible for us to, in addition to how we do the art night, having an artist come in and lead an event. What would happen is Kid Create would send a staff person to come out with all the materials and they have a whole menu on their website of what you would want to do. So they have like snowman slime or, you know, make a snowman out of clay or paper or something, you know, and other things besides snowmen. Um, so what they would do is we would pay them just a vendor fee to come out and lead an event for kids that come up during music in the park. And you know how it's kind of not all at once and not like a sit down thing. It's just kind of as the kids come and go and they're like, "Oh my god, we do this all the time." They actually do it for the Woodberry music or movies in the park night. So they're already doing it for another city. Um seems like a reasonable fee. Ashley's on the fence about that, but >> I didn't realize it included their materials, so I amend my previous comments. >> Yes. Okay, good. Um, so because we're treating the art cart night events similarly to the art night, we were thinking we would just create our own little super subcommittee. >> I think the just the change of process of the way we do art cart is it's nearly identical to what we're doing for art night just on a bigger scale kind or different scales, not necessarily bigger, but >> yeah. >> And of course we'll still have a person, you know, attending from the commission to be there. We'll figure that out. But yeah, anyway, so that's the update. So, we've got um feelers out for a couple of um people that can come and do that. We're going to meet again and decide what we want to do for big truck night because we think we can lead something like that, whether we do the rocks or something. I don't know. We've got materials in the art cart. Um and then we're going to decide um what we want to do about these vendors that we got back to us about the music in the park nights. So, do you need anything from city staff on this to move forward right now? >> No, but I think once we meet again, we will have the information we need to fill out the form so we can get that over to Jordan. But again, it shouldn't be any different than how we handle art night. So, I don't know if maybe that's something waved for the form since it's a similar process dealer. I mean, >> maybe not like a form or just just something maybe over email. Just kind of like where your guys' thoughts are and the information you've gathered. And >> for sure, >> everything anything that's like written or something I can reference works a lot better for me. >> Of course, >> I have a harder time >> processing information through my ears. So, >> well, and there's a lot we covered a lot of material tonight, so I totally get it. So, >> and for just for the new kid on the block, so after what the lawyer said today about the paying people for that, does that mean that we send the proposal to you, but it still needs to be voted on by city council if we're hire >> is it how does that work? >> So, the way with the art night contracts, yes. So, I have a contract. I have the artist sign it. Brian signs it and then the check has to go through city council to be issued. >> Okay. So, yes. >> Thank you. So, city council doesn't really approve it so much as it's on the consent agenda just as long as well as dozens if not hundreds of other checks every every time that they approve. >> So, it's it I from my own experience I can tell you that they probably don't even notice that there's a check in there for that. >> That's fair. Thank you. >> Yeah. So, it's not it's not like a it sort of is a a formal approval, but it's not really an approval. They don't it's not go doesn't really go to the >> you don't have >> as an individual item for a vote for >> you had me a consent agenda. >> Yeah. So any update on art night then? >> Our first art night is tomorrow night. We're doing mandala on coffee mugs. So that'll be exciting. We have a full house. All 15 slots are taken which is great. Um, I did send out um not as a serial communication but as solely as informational and to please get back to me and nobody did. Thanks a lot everybody. Um, but if you could take a night to sign up for these events, that would be really helpful. So, I've got the first three art nights covered. Ashley's going to do May. Tom's going to do October. If anybody can do the music in the parks or the November art night, that would be awesome. >> What's the date for November? >> November 19th. >> I should be able to cover that. >> Yes. Okay. And then we'll just need somebody to cover music in the park night. Right. >> Um, right. I mean, I kind of just assumed we'd all be there for that. And the fall Roundup Parade. Um, so I guess Big Truck Night, Autumn Arts Festival, and Fall Roundup Parade. We already know. we should notify um or post those since I'm assuming we'll have a quorum for those three, right? >> I have a question um regarding like the budgeting. So, is the art cart one just going to dissolve into art night since those are merging or do we need a vote on that or I'm not sure how that works when it's like post you know budget approval or recommendation? I have to look further into that. Um maybe probably I'm >> there do we need to make like some sort of official motion to say hey we're merging Yeah. >> merging the subcommittees. Yeah. >> No, I mean we just made those up on our own. So, I mean, if we have if we want to separate those on a budget line item, I mean, we can keep them separated as budget line items, but again, I don't know. I I think even these budget line items here for the ACC are really just for us because I don't I don't I don't know that this that the general ledger has it has each of our subcommittees broken out or if it's just arts commission as a whole. It's not that big >> of a budget overall. So, >> but I I I would recommend just maybe keep the budget separate for our sake as we're looking at it here. But the subcommittees, that's that's just a function of our of of our getting our work done. >> And then Ava had emailed um I connected her to someone I know who does swing dancing lessons. And so she's considering a swing swing dance something for the time capsule opening. So I think that's still up in the air, but I think that could count as our um art contribution to that night. So we've got that covered. Is that an all hands night? >> Doesn't have to be. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Okay. Anything else on art night? >> That's it. >> Um Okay, that's everything then. >> Wow. Okay. >> Yeah, because we don't have Autumn Arts Festival updates. And then we there's we had the well there was the other group I took the name off of that one. I think it used to be called well it used to be called something else the the where we had the passport and the stamps for restaurants but that whole thing just kind of got >> um >> we need some new thoughts. >> Yeah. Maybe some I think it maybe fit if would fit under maybe public art. No, >> whatever we were doing there. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Yeah. Because I think I think actually you think back I think originally it was for something for like um remember when we were kind of talking about like this uh uh like a cultural event night. >> Cultural Yeah. >> Huh. >> Yeah. The cultural >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Asian night. >> Asian night. Yeah. It started out as that. >> Okay. Um, so, uh, old business, we don't have any old business, uh, reports from staff. >> Um, yes, I have the budget report. Um, the public art currently, we're in the negative because of the the penny press was more than what was budgeted. Um, so I was just looking for some recommendation or direction on where that money should come from and what other line items. Um, I also have the concrete stamp. I'm not sure how much that is. cuz I know it's only like a couple hundred, but I just wanted to put that there. So, that was also on our minds. But, um, yeah, just looking for some direction on where the money is going to come from from the other line items. >> I'd probably recommend it comes from uh murals at this point just because that's their biggest bucket. Are we all good with that then or? >> Works for me. >> Work for you. Yeah. >> All right. That is all I needed. Thank you. >> All right. Uh reports from com commissioners. Ashley, you got any reports for us this month? >> Not this month, though. I'm good. >> Nothing. Okay. Sharon, you got anything? >> No. >> Eliza? I'm just getting back in the swing of things. So, emails to come, guys. >> Raquel, you have anything? >> No, I will sign up for stuff soon. >> What did you say? >> I'll sign up for stuff soon. I totally forgot. >> You probably should. >> Hey, sign up for things. >> Volunteer stuff. Yeah, >> Laura, >> we were happy. >> True. Yeah, great to see you. >> Thanks for coming. >> Okay. And I don't have anything either. And we don't have our council leaison here.