hereby call to order the Roseville City Council meeting for Monday, April 21st, 2025. Mr. City Manager, would you call the role, please? Council member Grath here. Council member Strong here. Council member Schroeder here. Council member Bower here. Mayor Ro here. Uh and with us at the day, by way of introduction, we have our city attorney, Rachel Tierney, who's on my right at the very end. uh and city manager Pat Trean who's on my left at the other end. Uh other staff uh will be participating in the meeting and we'll make those introductions as uh those items come up on the agenda. I would remind folks if you got a cell phone to silence it or otherwise assure that it doesn't disrupt the meeting this evening. Uh we also uh want to let folks know that there is a uh community copy of all the meeting materials in a three- ring binder on the back table under the big clock in the back of the room. Uh that's available if you need to refer to the materials. Uh and once again it's a community copy so you have to share. Uh we also do have multiple individual copies of the agenda that you can use personally uh if you need to uh track follow along with the meeting agenda. Those are available on the same spot on the back table. Um want to uh note too that um we will be uh doing some public hearings this evening. So we'll go through the process of what's involved in uh testimony for public hearings uh when we get to that point. So stand by for that. But otherwise with those uh basic uh housekeeping items, we'll go ahead and ask folks to stand if you're able for the pledge of allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Right. Next on our agenda is approval of tonight's agenda. And I'll check as I always do first with uh staff to see if there are any changes to the agenda this evening. Mr. Mayor, staff has no changes to the agenda. All right. And uh council, are there any changes that council would like to make to the agenda or consent items that the council would like to consider separately this evening? Does not appear to be the case. Uh and while I can imagine most folks in the room are here for the public hearings that will be happening shortly, uh we do have a number of items on what we call our consent agenda, which is section 10 at the end of the agenda at the bottom of page one. It's a number of items that include like approve approval of our payments, some uh general business licenses, uh purchases over $10,000 and things along those lines. Uh if anyone is here for one of those items in section 10 in our agenda, what's known as our consent items, uh those will be taken up at the end of the meeting and are usually done as a single motion with limited opportunity for input. But if you are here to comment or ask a question about one of those items, this would be the opportunity to let us know uh and we'll make sure and move that particular item earlier in the meeting so that we can take it up while you're still here and uh not inconvenience you to wait till the end of the meeting. Is there anyone here for an item in section 10 of tonight's agenda? All right. Does not appear to be the case. Uh with that then I believe we can approve our agenda as presented. Is there a motion from the council? So moved. Second. It's been moved by council member Gra, seconded by council member Stron to approve the agenda as presented. Any discussion on that motion? Hearing none. All those in favor signify by saying I. I opposed. That passes unanimously. We have our agenda for this evening. Uh next on our agenda is uh general public comment. This is our first opportunity uh for public comment this evening. Uh this is once again for items that are not on this evening's agenda but may be of interest to people in the community or related to city business. Is there anyone here to speak this evening on items not on tonight's agenda? All right, we've got one gentleman. So uh feel free to come up and have a seat and and while that's happening, I'll just kind of go through the rules of the road for uh public comment. Uh we do have a threeminut time limit per speaker. That's by rule of the city council. Uh we ask that you uh state your name and street or address for the record uh at the start of your comments. Uh and as this gentleman is already doing, if you have a name that may not be easy for us to know how to spell, uh making a note of that on the clipboard, often times when you're done with your comments off to the side, uh works great to just make sure we have that for the official record. Any comments or questions should be directed at the city council. And probably important to note uh during general public comment. Oftentimes we're not able to address the comment or concern at the meeting and we might have to direct some follow-up. So just let you know that. Uh and there's a couple more rules that apply to public hearings that we'll talk about when we get to that point. Uh but without any further ado and thanking uh this gentleman for his patience, uh we'll open up the general public comment. Welcome. Good evening. My name is Rich Nimon and I live at 2825 Arona in Roseville. I have children that are in early adulthood and like many parents, I'm wondering if they will ever be able to afford a home of their own. Zoning restrictions and upside down and an upside down property tax system are major culprits behind housing housing unaffordability. In many of our state's communities, little other than single family homes are allowed to be built because of restrictive zoning ordinance ordinances. In all our communities, building improvements are penalized with higher property taxes while real estate speculators sitting on vacant and underused home sites are rewarded with low taxes. It's time to flip the script and allow a variety of homes to be built across the state and to authorize cities to create land value tax districts in which the building value portion of properties is taxed at a lower rate than the land value portion. Please contact your legislators and tell them to support pending legislation for zoning reform and land value tax ships. Then someday my children and everyone who wants to will be able to have their own home. Thank you. Thank you for your comments this evening. Great. Is there anyone else who is here for general public comment this evening? Right. Seeing no one, we'll close the opportunity for general public comment and we'll move into the rest of our agenda this evening. Uh first, after public comment, we do have a number of uh proclamations under recognitions and donations. And so we'll uh get right into those. And I will read each proclamation. Uh and a motion to approve would be an order from the council. The first proclamation uh relates to volunteer month in Roseville and reads as follows. Whereas volunteers make an immeasurable impact on the health and well-being of communities by offering their time, skills, and resources for the benefit of others. And whereas the city of Roseville volunt whereas city of Roseville volunteers contributed 5,446 hours of service in 2024, which is the equivalent of 2.6 in six full-time positions, helping facilitate the city's innovative natural resources program, volunteering at community celebrations including Rosefest, Earth Day, and the Wild Rice Festival. Uh contributing time to public works initiatives including cleanup day uh and shredding day, and helping to beautify our city at events including the Blooming Boulevard and on Arbor Day. And whereas Roseville's vibrant network of civic and nonprofit organizations, including Friends of Roseville Parks, Friends of the Oval, the Central Park Foundation, the Roseville Police Foundation, and numerous others also rely on volunteers to contribute to City of Roseville programs, parks, and its people. And whereas Roseville's strong volunteer ethic reflects Minnesota, which rank third in the United States for formal volunteerism participation, logging more than 110 million hours of service annually. And whereas volunteers are essential in building stronger and more connected communities, creating lasting changes where they live, work, and play. And whereas volunteer month provides an opportunity to celebrate the impact people have when they use their civic power to support the causes they care about. Now therefore, be it resolved the city of Roseville hereby declares April 2025 to be volunteer month. So moved. Second. Right. It's moved by Council Member Straw, seconded by Council Member Schroeder. Uh any discussion on that motion to approve that proclamation? I would just like to say how thankful we are. We have a great volunteer coordinator and we really rely on an amazing core of volunteers here in Roseville. I would just add that that goes back years and years and years probably before Roseville became a city. I think there's been a long tradition of volunteering uh and serving our community in that way. And so we really do appreciate that and uh really do appreciate the fact that it continues to this day and and hopefully forward as well. With that, we do have Oh, council member Shorter. I the one thing I did want to add is I would say that I would think that the hours are underestimated and I think there's a lot of volunteering that's happening. People just get out and do this even without logging the hours. So, I think we have even more than that. So, again, I wanted to say thank you to the community. That's uh well put as well. And I would note that we do have individuals in Roseville who do things of their own volition like going out and cleaning up trash along the streets, things like that. We can't uh we can't have the community we have without those types of efforts. So we do appreciate that. Uh once again, we've got the motion before us to approve that proclamation on volunteer month. If there's no further discussion, all those in favor signify by saying I. I. Opposed. That passes unanimously. That proclamation is approved. The next proclamation is in regard to mental health awareness and reads as follows. Uh whereas mental health is part of overall health and helps to sustain an individual's thought processes, relationships, productivity, and ability to adapt to change or face adversity. Mental illness adversely affects those abilities and often is life-threatening in nature. According to Mental Health Alliance, one in five adults and children will experience a mental health condition of some sort in their lifetime. And whereas it is important for all to maintain mental health and learn the symptoms of mental illness, long delays, sometimes decades, often occur between the time symptoms first appear and when individuals get help, early identification and treatment can make a difference in successful management of mental illness and in recovery. And whereas we recognize the numerous residents of Roseville uh who are impacted by mental illness. And whereas every citizen and community can make a difference in helping end the silence and stigma that has too long surrounded mental illness and discourage people from getting help. And whereas public education and civic activities can encourage mental health and help improve the lives of individuals and families affected by mental illness. Now therefore, be it resolved that the city of Roseville hereby declares May 2025 as mental health well mental health awareness month in the city. So moved. Second. Right. It's been moved by Council Member Grath, seconded by Council Member Schroeder. Uh discussion on that motion. Uh no, I just think it's really an important thing in our community and uh as you know, I work on the board to Northeast Youth and Family Services which has their um annual event on May 14th and all the communities involved invited to that and that helps recognize mental health issues in youth and their families early on to help um get treatment. So that's my comments. Thanks. Right. No, thank you. Uh uh council member Rstrad, I just um sometimes it seems like the comments or the proclamations are not rooted in um action and I think it's important for the community to be aware of our commitment as a council and as a city in the mental health um of our citizens. So, um, we have our CAT team embedded in our, um, in our, uh, police department, which works on community action, uh, and social workers embedded as well as the North Youth Youth and Family Service and our commitment, uh, financial commitment to Tubman services and other and many other things that um, work toward the mental health of our residents. And so I think it's important to know it's not just a set of words, but it's something that we actively work to make sure that is part of what we hold important in our city um actions. Right. Thank you. Is there any other discussion on the motion? Hearing none, all those in favor signify by saying I. Opposed. That passes unanimously. That proclamation is approved. That brings us to our third uh of the five proclamations this evening. Uh, this proclamation is in relation to Asian-American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month and reads as follows. Whereas the city of Roseville is committed to recognizing and honoring the contributions of all members of our community. And whereas in 1992, Congress passed public law 102-450, which annually designated May as Asian Pacific Islander, Asian-American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month. And whereas the month of May was selected to commemorate the immigration of Japanese citizens to the United States on May 7th, 1843, to mark the anniversary, excuse me, and to mark the anniversary of completion of the transcontinental railroad on May 10th, uh, 1869, with the majority of the workers being Chinese immigrants, who were often mistreated. And whereas Japanese American troops fought for freedom and from tyranny abroad in World War II while their families here at home were in turned simply on the basis of their ethnic origin. And whereas in 1965, the immigration and nationality act opened new doors of opportunity for more Asian and Pacific Islander immigrants to the United States. And whereas the end of the Vietnam War brought new Vietnamese, Cambodian, Mong, and La Oceanian communities uh to the United States and specifically to Minnesota. And whereas there are over 20 million Asian-Americans and Pacific Islanders in the United States with over 260,000 residing uh in Minnesota and nearly 3,500 in Roseville based on the 2020 census. And whereas many Roseville residents identify as Asian-American or Pacific Islander, particularly Mong and Karen community members. They contribute to the vibrant community of Roseville um through their rich cultures and also as business owners, educators, scientists, and artists in many other ways. And whereas many Roseville residents ident excuse me whereas uh the Mong people began arriving in Minnesota in uh 1975 as refugees from the destructive wars in their homeland in which the Twin Cities metro region has the largest concentration of Mong uh individuals in America and whereas also the Kurin people have been oppressed in their homeland of Myanmar for decades and sought refuge in other places with St. Paul currently supporting one of the largest Karen communities in the United States. And whereas despite all the progress, many Asian-American and Pacific Islanders, continue to face persistent inequality and discrimination, including barriers to equal access to education, employment, and healthcare. Asian-Americans, especially those who are Muslim, Hindu, or seek, too often face senseless violence and harassment due to the color of their skin, the tenants of their faith, or simply being Asian. And whereas in 2025, AsianPacific and and Pac Asian-American and Pacific Island Heritage Month honors the theme of a legacy of leadership and resilience. And uh whereas the city of Roseville invites all members of the community to renew their commitment to ensuring cultural humility, racial equality, and justice by participating in activities designed to advance the cause of freedom and equality for all. Now, therefore, be resolved. The city of Roseville hereby declares May 2025 to be Asian American and Pacific Island Heritage Month. So move. Second. Right. That's been moved by Council Member Strong, seconded by Council Member Grath. Uh discussion on that motion. Hearing none. All those in favor signify by saying I. I. I. Opposed. That passes unanimously. That proclamation is approved. Uh proclamation number four uh reads as follows. This is in relation to older adults month in Roseville. May is a particularly active month. I'm noting from proclamations. Yes, it is. Uh the older adults month proclamation reads, "Whereas Roseville is home to many residents aged 60 years and older. Uh and whereas older adults in Roseville are the roots from which our community has grown uh who bestow gifts of wisdom and insight upon younger generations and strengthen the bonds between neighbors to create a better place to live. And whereas the city of Roseville recognizes and focuses on older adults taking charge of their health, getting engaged in their communities and making positive impacts in the lives of others. And whereas older adults are productive, active, and influential members of society, sharing essential talents, wisdom, and life experiences with families, friends, and neighbors. And whereas our community can provide that recognition and respect by enriching the quality of older adults by increasing opportunities to remain in their communities as active engaged citizens, providing services, technologies, and support systems that allow older adults to foster and maintain connections within the community. Emphasizing the value of older adults by publicly recognizing their contributions to diversity, strength, and unity in our community. And now therefore be resolved, the city of Roseville hereby declares May of 2025 to be older adults month in the city of Roseville. And be it further resolved that we urge every citizen to honor older adults and the professionals, family members, and volunteers who care for them. Our recognition of older adults and their involvement in our lives can help us achieve stronger and more meaningful connections with each other and enrich our community's quality of life. So move second. Right. That's moved by Council Member Sharter, seconded by Council Member Bower. Uh discussion on that motion hearing none. All those in favor signify by saying I. I. I opposed. That motion passes unanimously and that proclamation is approved. And our final proclamation this evening is in regard to days of remembrance. It reads as follows. Whereas the Holocaust was the state sponsored systemic persecution and annihilation of European jewelry by Nazi Germany and its collaborators between 1933 and 1945. And whereas an estimated 6 million Jews along with millions of Romani, disabled, LGBTQ plus and political dissident among other marginalized groups suffered grievously and were murdered under Nazi tyranny. And whereas the history of the Holocaust offers the opportunity to reflect on the moral responsibilities of individuals, societies, and governments. And whereas the days of remembrance have been set aside as a time for all to remember the victims of the Holocaust, as well as to reflect on the need for respect of all people uh to strive to overcome intolerance and indifference through learning and remembrance. And whereas the people of Roseville remember the terrible events of the Holocaust and especially the deaths of more than a million children who were victims uh and also remain v vigilant against hatred, persecution, and tyranny. And whereas Roseville's people are dedicated to the principles of individual freedom in a just society. And whereas Roseville honors the memory of the victims, survivors, and liberators of the Holocaust. Now therefore, be it resolved the city of Roseville hereby proclaims the week of April 23rd to April 30th as days of remembrance in the city of Roseville. So moved. Second. That's moved by council member Strong, seconded by Council Member Bower to approve the days of remembrance uh proclamation. Uh discussion on that motion. I'd just like to say this um this particular proclamation is especially important in a time when some people have chosen to ignore history and the p persecution and attempted annihilation and extermination by Nazis. May we remember these important events and work to prevent them from ever happening again uh in any corner of our world and that we may remember and learn from our history and uh take our um days of remembrance seriously. Thank you. Any other discussion on the motion? Hearing none. All those in favor signify by saying I. I. I opposed. That passes unanimously. That proclamation is approved. Uh that concludes then our recognitions and donations for this evening. Uh next on our agenda, we'll move into our business items. Uh section 7. Uh item 7A is a public hearing uh and several resolutions related to approving vacation of multiple streets uh street easements and rights of way. Uh and just uh a quick check in uh Mr. Fryhammer, the public works director who will be uh leading this process. Is the intent to do a hearing on each in turn? Uh that's kind of what I was imagining we would want to do. You may present on all of them perhaps at the beginning. Yeah, I think if you want if it's simpler, we can present on them all, answer questions, and then certainly uh do a hearing on each one and take each uh resolution up individually. Okay. All right. Thank you. Uh with that, uh Mr. Frahammer, uh please uh begin the presentation on this item this evening. All right. Uh thank you, mayor and councel. So we're back uh for a fifth time talking about easement vacations. So as you recall, we've done uh kind of four phases. So we're bringing back another set of these. Um but these were all kind of started back in I believe 2022. Um so real quick tonight we have four areas that we're vacating. They're vacations uh K, W, U, and V. Um I do think most of the residents are here for item B, but uh we'll see. Um so first the the the first location is um exhibit K. This is off of County Road C um between two properties, but this is uh an existing um rightway that was dedicated to the city back in the day. Um it was never constructed as a city road, but we do have public utilities in here. So um since we have not maintained this ever from my understanding, uh we're looking to vacate this and and give that back to the property owners. Um the second vacation is vacation U. Um resolution two in the packet. Um this is a portion of Aldine Place. Um that lies within the plat of Ridgewood. Um I think on this uh plat location, it was originally intended to be a through street. Uh the through street was never constructed. There is an existing sidewalk that does connect uh Aldine to Ridgewood. Um so we are just proposing to vacate the excess rightway. We don't need a 60ft rightway um for a pathway. So looking to vacate the outer edges and still maintain the the pathway as is. Um the third vacation um is vacation V uh resolution three. Um this is a portion of Aldine uh that lies within the plat of Mid Oaks and there's a portion of that's technically not in the Mid Oaks Plat, but this would connect um Aldine Street uh basically north of Roselon. Um I should add on this one. So when staff did propose this vacation um we do have utility easements. So, we were proposing to maintain the utility easements. Um, there's a lot of uh additional comments that are included in the packet as well as a few bench handouts that were uh uh passed out today. Um, but we have heard a fair amount of comments from residents um about existing neighborhood use as a pathway. Staff was not aware of that when we did propose this this. So, um something to consider. Uh it is not currently on the pathway master plan, so it it hasn't been there. Um after doing a little bit of research, there is a curb cut in. So, at some point the city did put a curb cut in for a pathway. Um, but I don't know if that was just done as a neighborhood thing on on the whim or there's no history on it. Does it doesn't show up in the construction plans, but there is one there. Um, I will add if if some if council does want to take an alternative action on this one. um similar to what we've done on other projects where we potential of pathway we could do the the the overall process to look at um adding this to the pathway master plan if that's something we want if if if council wants to consider and that would basically be table for a later date do that pro do that process first if if that's an option. Um alternatively you could just proceed to to vacate that as well but certainly um if there's a potential to do that you would we would want to keep a portion we cannot vacate the the rightway if we want to keep that. So, just want to point that out. And then the fourth location, um, similar to the second one is, uh, vacation W. This is a portion of Wheeler Street, um, within the the Woods Woodside Plat. Um, and this is also just vacating excess right away. Um, this portion of the plat was uh potentially to do a road. Um, as you can see to the north off of Skilman, we have a much narrower rightway. So, just kind of more mimicking uh the kind of right sizing the rightway. So, with that, um, staff would recommend, um, opening up the public hearing and and the rules are there, and I'm sure the mayor will go through a few additional ones. Um, otherwise, this is a four fifths, uh, a four-fifth vote would be required, but since this is a city initiated, um, vacation process. So, with that, um, I'll turn it back to council and certainly answer any questions, uh, that anyone may have. All right. Thank you, Mr. Fryhammer. Are there questions from the council for staff uh at this point on these proposed uh vacations of rightway? Uh council member Grath I was trying to keep track Mr. Frymer when you were speaking about which ones had easements for utilities. Was is it all of them or is it just the two? So we are proposing to maintain easements on all of them. On all of them. Yep. Thank you. And I'll just follow up on that. Were the easements intended to be the full width of the original right ofway other than the case where we're doing we're we're keeping just the pathway or are we still maintaining the we're still maintaining easements there there there's I think gas uh in all the corridors as well as overhead electric the access for utility work is width still correct would still maintain but we're basically giving up the street rights for the okay and then in the cases where there are where we're maintaining those uh utility access easements I know this came in in a previous action earlier well actually last year um there are limits still as to what residents can do when we have a utility access easement on the property even though we've given the right of way back to the property owner if you could maybe talk a little bit about that Mr. by correct. So if if if there are utilities in the court or we keep the utility ements, you're still not allowed to build in there. Uh the property lines do move. So your setbacks, so currently there's typically like a 5yard setback. Um so you would be able to potentially build additionally in your your your existing yard. Um certain encroachments like a fence, we could consider those on a case by case, potentially do an encroachment agreement. Um but yeah, you mo in most these cases, uh property owners would not be able to construct a shed or a garage because we do need those. There's there's still utilities in the ground and we need access to those. Right. Thank you. Uh Council Member Strong, in addition then they um someone wouldn't be able to put a tar or paved uh driveway over those. So that could be considered on a case- by case basis. We'd have to do an encroachment agreement for that, but um we'd have to review those individually. And maybe just to follow up again on the encroaching encroachment agreement typically what does that talk about in terms of say the city does have to go onto that portion of property to do maintenance on a utility or dig dig up the utility or whatever. What is the city's responsibility? What's the homeowner's responsibility? So, typically the way we we draft encroachment agreements if we allow a fence or a driveway um basically they're kind of there at risk and basically we can direct the property in order to remove them if if they need to or you know so they're not you know if you have a fence you'd have to remove the fence if you'd have a driveway it's going to get impacted the city's not going to restore the driveway or the utility company wouldn't be required because they have access to that. So u but we try to review those ahead of time. Um we're not going to allow one when we know they're they're going to be problematic. We would do it in spots where we think they're very unlikely to be an impact in the future. Right. Other questions for staff. All right. Uh if that's the case, then uh we'll uh begin the the public hearing process. I would just note um that uh once again we'll take up each uh segment separately uh as a separate hearing and then a separate action by the council. I think from the point of view of organizing our work, that's probably going to make things work uh the most smoothly. Um I think we could adjust the order if the council prefers to perhaps talk about one ahead of others. Uh but I think they may just go very quickly anyway. So uh there may not be testifiers for every single one. Um so we could see what what happens. Um but I just wanted to put that possibility out there for the council. Uh then uh there is some specific uh uh discussion of notice that Mr. Mr. Trean will have to do as we open this hearing process. Mr. Trejudan. Thank you, uh, Mr. Mayor, and this applies to all the public hearings. Publish and legal mail notices have been provided for this public hearing. Legal notices appeared in the city's legal newspaper, The Pioneer Press, on March 11th and 18th, 2025. Mail notices were sent on March 20th, 2025. Affidavit of publishing and mailing are available in the Office of City Engineer. And as you know, we have received several written comments. Some are in the packet as some today that are included in front of you as bench handouts. All right. And we would note that we received an email from uh Miss Rachel Brown. Uh we received a email um from Mr. Kevin Watson and I believe we also received an email from uh Miss Tam McGee. Uh so we have that information uh with us and for our consideration this evening and we'll certainly make those part of the public record uh of this hearing. Uh so that we have that uh just once again by way of the uh the housekeeping rules for public hearings. Uh again there is a by council rule a threeminut time limit per speaker and I try to enforce that rather uh gently and uh but also not super generously. Um, so we do want you to try to uh make the comments you have and you can say quite a bit uh in in these meetings uh with a three-minute time limit. If you're not able to complete your comments, you certainly can follow up with an email to the council uh or if you happen to have your remarks written, you could hand them to Mr. Trean and he would make sure the council gets those as well. Um then uh once again, direct questions or comments to the council. If there are questions that come up during the public comment, we'll make a note of those and then usually what we do is at the end of that particular hearing then we'll uh get answers from either staff or from the council as appropriate on those questions. Um but we don't want to stop in in between each person's testimony and answer questions because it doesn't tend to make things go as smoothly. Um so that'll be the process there. Once again, when you begin your remarks, if you can state your name uh in either your street or your address for the public record. Uh and once again, when you're finished, you can uh sort of go off to the side and just write your name on the on the clipboard if your name is not one that we're going to know how to spell very easily. Um and uh because we may have a number of people who wish to testify, we do have the two chairs and two microphones. Uh and we'll make both of those available. Uh and it's not at all wrong to come up and have a seat next to somebody who is speaking. Uh so that you would be the next person to speak when that person is finished. Uh, and if there are two people up there and you want to be next, there are certainly seats in the front row that you could uh sort of queue yourself into uh to be ready to go when one of the seats vacates. Uh, but usually the process goes pretty smoothly under those rules. Um, and with that, I think we'll go ahead and uh, Miss ask Mr. Frymer maybe to take a seat. So, we free up one of those microphones. Uh and uh we'll open up the hearing first of all on uh easement vacation K. Uh which is the one on I believe that's the one on the um Aldine Street or Aldine whatever it's called C. That's the one on County Road. Okay. I knew I was going to do that. All right. Right. So just south of County Road C. All right. Is there anyone here to speak on the uh first case K, which is once again on the south side of County Road C on the western edge of Roseville between two commercial properties. And Matt's on the screen. That is on the screen so people know. It doesn't appear to be the case. We'll go ahead and open uh and then close the public hearing uh uh on that particular item uh and move to council consideration. We have the resolution attachment one in the packet for this uh vacation. Uh does council wish to make a motion on the resolution attachment one for area K? So move. Second. All right. It's been moved by council member Schroeder, second by council member Gra to uh approve the resolution uh attachment one for area K for the vacation of that uh rightaway or easement. Uh discussion on the motion as the maker of the motion. Uh council member Schroeder. All right. As the second council member Grath. All right. Any other discussion on the motion? Hearing none, we've got the motion before us to adopt that resolution vacating uh that right ofway or easement for that particular location. Uh if there's no further discussion, all those in favor signify by saying I. I. Opposed. That passes unanimously meeting the 4 to zero requirement. Uh next is the one uh that I was attempting to refer to. This is the second one which is uh area uh U and that is attachment uh two in the packet. Uh is there anyone who wishes to speak to this particular item? We'll go ahead and open up the public hearing. Anyone wishing to speak to this particular right-of-way vacation. All right. Seeing no one uh seek recognition to come forward, we'll close the public hearing on this item. Uh and we'll ask for a motion from the council on uh this resolution for area U. So moved. Second. All right. It's been moved by Council Member Straw, seconded by Council Member Bower. Uh discussion on the motion as the maker, Council Member Strong. I use this pathway quite regularly. So, um I'm sure the neighbors will appreciate I think the neighbors are largely respectful of that property, not realizing how wide it is at the moment. So, it'll be nice to have it uh delineated. All right. As the second, Council Member Bower. All right. Any other discussion on the motion? Hearing none. All those in favor signify by saying I. I opposed. That passes unanimously. That is approved. Uh next is uh val vacation v resolution 3. This might be the one for which we've got folks in attendance this evening. Um once again this is a public hearing. I'll open up the public hearing and welcome uh the first person who wishes to come up and speak. Hello and welcome. Hello. Uh my name is Stephanie Keen Ashen Brener and I live at 2016 uh Hershel Street. Um, I remember when I first moved into the neighborhood in 2011, I um I did I do a lot of walking and at that time I was exploring the neighborhood and I was just so um enchanted to find this quiet wooden path that wooded path you know either you go to Snelling or you go to Fair View and it's congested and noisy but there was this you know it was a hot day and it was cool along the path and it was shaded and and it almost seemed magical. And so I, you know, I I use the path uh few few times a week and it's always um just enchanting to to walk through it and then come out into the farm fields where you can see the the full sky. Um so I I do uh ask that you consider maintaining the path or or keeping the path for um for neighborhood use. And um thank you so much for the opportunity to share my opinion. Thank you for your comments. Is there anyone else who wishes to speak on this? Hi, my name is Linda Strawn and I live on Wheeler and Ryan just um two blocks from this path. And I agree with the spee previous speaker, but I've been living in Roseville since the year 2000. So my kids have grown up using that path and my grandkids now use it and it is um it is an enchanting wooden wooded path just as she said. But for me at this stage, I use it when my dog gets away because she goes behind all those houses there. And instead of, you know, barging into all of my neighbors yards, I can just go on that path and see where she is and have a better easier time getting her because their yards are full of the rabbits and this wood, that's where she goes. So besides just having it to catch my dog, I just re really enjoy the fact that it's another way to get to the fields that's not along the busy streets. Um it's another um place in Roseville where it's quiet, where the neighbor, you know, the people who live there and it's just a nice place to walk. Would like to say that. and I hope you can uh think of leaving it or maintaining it. Thank you. Thank you for your comments. Is there anyone else who wishes to comment on this item this even Hello. Welcome. Hi, my name is Cindy Galher and I live at 2009 Herschel and I have lived there maybe 35 years and I have been using that path for 35 years and I I can't tell you how grateful I am for it. I one one of besides the access to the agriculture fields. Now what I observe are kids that are coming from like the the neighborhood Mid Oaks neighborhood that use it to go to Brim Hall. So they can walk to Brimhall and they don't have to take the bus and they don't have to go to Fair View and they don't have to go to Snowing. So, I'm really hoping that a solution will be made so that that freedom to pass through there safely continues for another 35 or however long years. Much appreciated. The people that live along the path have been very gracious. We've gotten to know some of them. We try to be respectful. I have always wondered if I'm trespassing because you're walking along somebody's yard. Um, there are some fences on the Mid Oak side but not on the other side other than Rachel Brown's. But she's always been so open to the path walkers and even created an area along Roselon so that you can she has a garden and then she made a she extended the walking route so that people can still get through to Roselon. So anyway, I just want to be hopeful that that will continue. It's It's really a nice spot in our neighborhood and it does connect the two neighborhoods. So, thank you. Great. Thank you. Is there anyone else who wishes to speak on this item? Um, I'm Sarah Quinn and I'm at 89 Mid Oak, so why back up to that path? Um, I do want to say it is lovely and enchanted, but I recognize that if you put a paved path in there, you will most likely have to cut down many of the mature trees there, and it makes it a really lovely, lovely part of our backyard and our neighbors yards. Um, in terms of dog walkers, there are a lot of people that walk their dogs off leash there, which is kind of disrespectful. I found poop bags in my backyard. Not the backyard, but the back easement area. So I understand the usage of the pathway but I would also say not everybody is using it respectfully. Thank you. [Music] Nice. Hello. Welcome. Good evening Mayor Row and and council members. Uh my name is Tim Brown and my wife and I, Mindy Ericson, uh live down on the south end of this at 93 Mid Oaks. And I don't know, you you may or may not have uh had it had an opportunity to live next to one of these sort of um no man's land that the residents aren't sure how to maintain it or if they're even supposed to because it's labeled as rightway. And so it becomes a mainly kind of a mess. And and so since we've lived there for the past six, seven years, um we've we've we've seen that and we've wanted to take it under our stewardship there and get rid of invasive species and protect the four full-grown oak trees that are right in this zone that we're talking about. Um, and so we were very excited to see that the city council was moving forward with with these vacations and and freeing this this stuff up for us to maintain in terms of the vegetation at least uh the way we be consistent with our yards and and improve the functionality of the space for for all the neighbors. Um, so we we were strongly uh in support of vacation and hope you guys will will take that as a first step for whatever comes next. Um, we're not particularly in favor of the trail mainly because we have concerns about, for example, if it were a formal path um with within your specs for your your trail plans, your your pathway plan, that would mean um um clearing out a lot of these mature oak trees. There's about a dozen all the way down this quarter mile or so. and that and that those are the magic for us in our yard there at 93. We've got about 20 of these oak trees including the four in this zone. And so um if the trail if the pathway were formalized to be a path per your spec it would really change the character of the this magic anyway. Plus, there's a safety issue at Rose Lawn where the trail comes up a steep hill and then you're right at the curb of a parking area on Rose Lawn. And so, I don't know that if you had a lot of traffic on on that path, you would be sending them right out into a very hazardous zone. And so, I think if a trail did get developed or a pathway, I'll call it, that's that's what your plan defines these. But, um, there's going to be something that I think you'll want to put there in terms of a signal or or a crosswalk. Um, and finally, we we we haven't I'm seeing more people here tonight than I've seen on the trail in the in the five or seven years that we've been there. Not that I'm watching closely, but we see it see it a nice, quiet, nonused, very little used area. And I wonder if the cost of developing this fully um is real benefit to especially with other trail priorities that I know the city has. And so that's where we are on it and and and thank you for listening and thank you for the uh older adult recognition. I hope I had some wisdom and insight for you. Thank you. Thank you for your comments on both topics. Mhm. Is there anyone else who wishes to speak to this item this evening? Hello and welcome. I'm Olivia G and I live at 2021 Hershel Street and we've lived there for about 35 years next to Sydney Gallagher and uh we love this path and as I'm listening to the comments I would really hope it could remain a path and not a formal sidewalk trail. It has changed its route a little bit over the years as trees have fallen or what I mean it's it's kind of wild and that's worked just fine. Kids have gone through there and it's made their fortit it's it's been a wonderful resource and I am sorry to hear what Sarah was saying. Some people have been disrespectful. Um I think partly no one has quite ever known as Cindy was saying what is this? Can we be here? Um, if we formally know where we can be, I think that'll be helpful. And if it can just be a slightly maintained wild trail as opposed to a sidewalk, it would be wonderful because it really is used by the neighborhood constantly and um it's a wonderful part of our neighborhood. So, thank you. Great. Thank you for your comments. other public comments on this particular hearing. Um, I also pre uh my name is Rachel Brown. I also appreciate the older adults uh proclamation. Um, and the line that cracked me up was uh to be engaged older adults engaged in the community. Well, I just did. I got engaged in the community and getting married in September. But that's that's a little personal note. I hope my doesn't go count against my three minutes. Um my name is Rachel Brown. I live at 1705 Roselon Avenue West. Um it is the uh one of the western properties in the in the um proposed vacation. Uh the trail the the informal trail that has not been maintained by the city but has been maintained by the underlying property owners kind of weaves in and out between these eight properties. Um it um my property then overlooks the the corn fields and which is to be super clear that is a research field research fields of the university. It is not a park. Um, I'm also a mom and a very um focused on kids safety and um while I appreciate um that uh children can walk from Mid Oaks currently through that path um to plan a path for the small number of children that walk to Rimhal is um doesn't seem sensible to me. Um I have been at that property for 25 years and um the moment we moved in um we were think someday you know we'll fix this garage problem that we have that was created in the 50s and the 30s when the house was built and someday we'll um fix the the um the gravel driveway issue and I'm very eager to work with the city to make sure that the easements um that would be required for the property would um will all be appropriate. period and um will work once the land is vacated. Um but we really we really want this now. And I'm um I'm speaking on behalf of the eight property owners um who don't use this this space for a three minute walk by once or twice a week or even every day. This is our property 247. This these are our backyards. This is our sideyard. And yes, I have been absolutely gracious and kind to people who walk by as I unload my groceries and swing my children on the swing in the backyard, but it's it's 293 feet of my property where people just walk by and you know whenever they want and um and it's really it's really intrusive and um so for so but to close I want to thank people I want to thank the eight um the series of eight property owners who we've been learning so much about how what a rightaway is and what an easement is and so and we've really been working together as a community to understand how we would use our property once it's returned back to us um if the rightway is vacated um taking care of the oaks. I had no understanding of how much um work and um how how sensitive some of the um residents are about what they can do once they finally have control over that those um trees. They're people who are going to get rid of buckthornne. there people who are going to've got their native plantings all ready to go. But it's again, we just need some clarity and to release this land back to um the the underlying property owners. We also I also want to thank the city staff. I know I'm almost there. Um the city staff for being so helpful and helping to explain things to us. And then in the um in a spirit of absolute optimism, I have a petition and kind of a letter thanking you all for voting yes today. So, um and it's signed by not just me, not just by my charming fiance, but um but by the he actually didn't sign because he's not officially a resident, but um by the all all eight of the underlying property owners. We are unified in asking and that you um vote yes today and let us let like 25 years of waiting to someday fix these problems um you know be done. let let's let these all these other property owners, all eight of us, start tending the land the way we really want to. So, thank you. Thank you. And I'm sure he's still charming even if he didn't. Is there anyone else who wishes to speak uh to this item this evening? Hello and welcome. Hello. Uh, thank you, mayor and councel. I appreciate the opportunity to uh talk about this issue. Uh, my name is Kevin Watson. I live at 2001 Aldine Street, so just a couple houses down from the start or the end of this pathway. Um, I wanted to advocate uh to have this path remain. Um, I think it's a tremendous connection uh for this neighborhood, for the Ridgewood neighborhood, and for the Mid Oaks neighborhood where they can pass through and walk around and walk their dogs. And, um, it's a a really a nice amenity. Um, and I know that, um, looking at your strategic plan, pedestrian connections are one of your priorities. I think, uh, environmental sustainability, encouraging people to walk is one of your priorities. And then inclusivity is another one. And this is a way for people that don't always have the a vehicle or whatever they need to get around. This is a pathway for them to uh um uh get to or through the neighborhood. So, I know my family uses it all the time to walk our dog. We certainly walk over to the fields. Uh we walk over to the state fair through this pathway. So, uh, I sent you a email today with, uh, a video of the of the trail, so you could see that it's a very wellused path. Um, but I'd like to ask you to, uh, encourage you to, uh, um, keep the trail, uh, as a connection, pedestrian connection, and, um, you know, talk to the neighbors. I think um you know, one thing the neighbors could do if they want to do native plantings, I'm sure that public works or whoever wouldn't mind uh those sort of uh u projects happening in the rideway. I know that there's a shed back there and there's a fence that's to the midpoint of the rideway already, so people are using it and I don't think that would interfere that use would interfere too much with uh a trail still existing. So, um yeah. So hopefully uh there's a way that I ask you to ask staff to look into uh include or keeping a trail uh in some form or fashion along through this section. So thanks. Thank you. Anyone else wish to speak to this item this evening? Right. Uh one more opportunity if there's anyone else who wishes to speak in the public hearing. Right. We'll go ahead and close the public hearing on this item uh then and proceed to council consideration. Um I did uh have a couple questions maybe if Mr. Fryhammer can uh make himself available. And the first is just a reminder on the width of the right of way in this particular location. So there's 30 ft of rightway in this location. Um 50 feet, excuse me. Uh 30 feet were dedicated with the Mid Oaks Plat and then there's 20 ft uh to the west that appears to have been acquired via condemnation. Okay. And maybe that gets to my question I had about the resolution because there's language in the resolution about maintaining the easement for utility purposes if said property contains a right-of-way easement. And it that was wording I hadn't seen before in one of these cases. And so I I wondered first of all if there was any kind of mistake there or if there was some intentionality in in that wording uh at the end of the first uh paragraph under now therefore be resolved. It says uh we would vacate uh that portion with the exception that we would maintain a utility easement or easement for utility purposes within the vacated right of way if said property contains a right-of-way easement. And so I wasn't sure what that was referring to. Yeah. Yes. That was done intentionally um by one of uh Miss Tyranny's col colleagues uh because it like I said it's not platted for that western portion. And so it's a little bit vague and there's a little bit of concern maybe right of way it may be an easement and so correct and there there potentially could be also underlying there's a chance there's also an underlying utility easement so it was it was left I think that gives us the best protection if we do vacate it that we still re maintain our utilities. Okay. I think the challenge I have with the way it's written is that it seems to say that we will maintain an easement for utility purposes only if the property contains a right-of-way easement because it just says if as the qualifier to that statement. And so I I just want to make sure if we do go ahead with this that we are very clear on what we mean uh and we understand what we're voting on and the public understands what's what's happening here, especially property owners. Um, so I might just refer that to the attorney to take a look at. Um, and if if it means we might not be able to take action this evening, I don't know that that's a Yeah, I would have to follow up with Sarah on Yeah. the exact wording, but I know we had we had a lot of discussion on this one because it is um it is unique on on how it was dedicated to us, not traditionally with the with a with a plat like the east like the eastern portion. And we do and we do know we do know we have city utilities under that portion of the corridor. So, we do know we need to maintain utility easement, right? And I was wondering if they meant to say something like the we maintain the utility easement whether or not there the property contains a right-of-way easement, but I will leave that to some further research. Um, other questions or comments? Council member Strong. Thank you. Um, so lots of speaking to the eight properties adjacent to this. How would this um right away be divided between those eight folks? The way that line of Aldine looks like um all of the Mid Oaks um lane properties don't look like they would be impacted by any gain to land based on where you think a line should be. Yeah. So the the east 30 feet, so there's 50 feet of rightway there. The east 30 feet was dedicated with the Mid Oaks Plat. So the five or six property owners on the east, if this was vacated, they would each get 30 feet back in their backyards of right away. We would still have the utilities. The west 20 ft would go back to 1706 and 1705. So it's not split down the middle 20. So the west 20 or the west get 20 ft, the east would get 30 ft. So it's about a 5ft difference one way or the other or 10. So we have and then there like I said but there's utilities in both corridors or both sides of the easement or right away so we would maintain utilities in both and that's kind of unusual because isn't it true that oftent times they sort of split. Yeah and it was because like I said Mid Oaks was platted the other side was not platted but we acquired it via condemnation. Sure. Okay. I also wanted to take the opportunity. I'm Julie Strong, Roseville City Council member. I live at 1260 Shrier and um I would advocate for keeping this uh pedestrian connection in between as one of previous speakers uh is my sister-in-law and our um back and forth. I live on the other side of Hamlin, but we walk quite frequently. Um, quite safely cross pretty proficiently every time and use that path to walk over and then walk through Ridgewood Lane either south or north. It's always a choice. Um, to get back home and it is something I and yes, I think delineating where that path is so that we that people don't encroach on Miss Brown's um property is would be very important. But I know for a while it looked like the path was closed and I reached out and asked why we why it was no longer and they said, "Well, that's not true." But there was some um property or there was some fencing or something at the end and they're like, "Oh, no, that's not changed." So, being very intentional about knowing that that was an available spot um and walking through there. There really isn't a point um between um Skilman and I mean between Fairview and Snelling to head south because of the little loopies. And so really there is if you are on foot um it can really add it. It's a lot longer to Fairview than you think it is in that area. And um and so I just think that I realize it's a research facility, but there's a lovely walking path in front of it that um and biking path. And um I just think it has been a really lovely resource. And I realize whenever we encroach on some we get near to where someone perceives to be their space, it can be challenging, but I do think it has been kind of the foot path for a long time. And I would advocate for keeping it. I have really enjoyed using it for the last 20 years that I've lived in Roseville. There other questions or comments from council members? Uh questions for staff. Otherwise, uh we have uh the uh proposed resolution there. I like I said, I'm a little concerned about the wording of the resolution. So, I may actually uh think about tableabling it here uh just to get that clarification. However, if there is a will on the part of the council to table for purposes of investigating pathway or something like that, certainly that is the type of thing that can be entertained at this time. Also, uh council member Brah question for you regarding the comprehensive master pathways plan. The one of the goals that we have with that pathways is always to connect from locations. If we look at our comprehensive plan, it's always a nice network you're seeing. You don't see uh segments that are isolated. Um, there are some, but it's usually because it's part of a larger kind of goal. In this case, I don't, and I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of any other pathways connecting or near this one. Yeah. I mean, really, you could look at the rolls on pathway on the Falcon Heights side. That could be one technically. Um, and then I guess the whole corridor up to Brim Hall if you want to consider that whole north south, but that's an intermittent pathway. There's it uh it only there's only like two segments in our pathway. The rest are on road. So, it's not a formal pathway connection. So, it is it is it is different. Um it is unique. We don't have a lot of corridors like this that we've done pathways on, but the brim is the actually the best example. Uh similar to the previous one um or the next one, I guess that that's kind of what it is. One of those sideyard things. Um obviously we it was never put in the pathway master plan. It wasn't brought up in the past. Um why I don't know. Um so it it is interesting. We uh we have like I said we don't have any of these informal trails. Usually once they've been informal we've typically added them to the pathway master plant or they've been improved traditionally but um this one's this one was new to staff. And just if we can go back to the uh to the other a you know the other little connectors across to get up to Brim Hall. Um do we know something about the history of those and maybe in the research related specifically to vacating these portions? Do we know kind of when those were put in or what the history? So I'd have to look up exactly when they were put in. Um I do know the northern portion. You can kind of see on this map the the northern portion when it was platted that was dedicated with that as a um I don't know if that was a 12 or 10 foot but there was a time in history that that was kind of common where they said well we're not going to put a road we're going to put a path. Um I don't know the sequencing if the southern the next plat to the south went there but at some point they thought there was going to be a road going in. Um, so my guess is maybe the southern part was a road for was going to be platted was platted first. They're going to do a road. Then they platted the north part and then they said, "Well, we don't want to put a road for connectivity reasons, but we want to keep a pathway because there's the the school was there." So, we'd have to do some more research to clarify all that. But, um, you know, it is a little bit unique. We don't have a lot of these site connections. when the only thing I was thinking is there's some if this were put in as a pathway it would be there would be some consistency in the neighborhood in the sense that there's these two other two connections and in the middle of long blocks but like I said we don't between Skilman and Eldridge it's an on street pathway there's no there's no dedicated sidewalk so basically we're just connecting the sideyards is what we're doing so basically if you're walking on Shrier you have a sidewalk and then as soon as you get to Skilman you're back on the street and then as soon as you get back up to Eldridge you're back on a sidewalk into into the school. So, um Right. But it does it does provide the cross connection so you don't have to walk around the long blocks. Right. Right. No, that's what I was thinking about. Um so, and just talk a little bit about what what a process would be if the council wanted uh us to look at doing uh a pathway of sorts in there. um you know, first of all, what the public process would be or the interaction with the neighborhood perhaps and engagement, but then also um you know, for instance, if there was some desire to preserve oak trees and you know, we wanted to try to weave a pathway through there, is is that even you know, possible without maybe having done much of a survey of the site in detail? So, in terms of adding the pathway, potentially the pathway master plan or at least make a decision if we should or shouldn't. So, what we did, I think back in 2020 or 2021, um, we had a few segments that we'd heard of from the public. What we ended up doing was sent postcards out to the neighborhood. If I had to guess, it would be a similar notification of of distance. I'd have to look exactly what we did last time, but notify the neighborhood that the council's considering adding uh a segment to the pathway master plan. Um, last time we held a public hearing at the public works, Environment, and Transportation Commission. Based on that, I think the commission I think we had six of them. The commission recommended all six. Then they went to council. Um you guys held I don't know if it was a formal public hearing, but we certainly took public comment at that and then council I believe added all six of those segments at that time to that. But um that's the process we took last time. It's not really formalized. So certainly that process could be whatever the council chooses, but that's what we did back in 2020 when we added it. Um one one other segment that council took similar action on I guess um more recently is when we did we vacated Rose Place maybe in the phase one or phase two um we did retain easement for that that is not formally on the pathway master plan but that is one that we have queued up that we would add to that list um whenever we decide to to reach out on other ones. So um I know staff was considering potentially doing that later this summer. So, if we end up having additional ones, we could we could do that. Um, otherwise, in terms of um constructing a formal pathway, um we'd have to look at the corridor. I know I myself and uh assistant city engineer uh Hendrickson, we we did walk it a week or two ago. Um we do have 50 ft of corridor there. There is existing utilities there, so it's relatively flat. Um certainly, we'd have to look at it. Um we do have one area um in uh Cottontail Park that was that's a park so it's not it's a little different but we do have that as a egg lime trail. Um we haven't typically constructed a lot of those but that is a little more scenic and natural. Um but we we'd have to look at the overall corridor and survey it. Um certainly if we did if council does want to see this uh maintained as a pathway either you know currently in its current state or in the future to improve it um just because it's on the pathway master plan doesn't necessarily mean it gets improved uh in the short term. Uh it just preserves the corridor I guess but um certainly we'd have to look at it but um we would try to avoid tree impacts but um obviously if you're putting an 8 foot wide pathway or concrete there's always that risk of that. Um certainly like I said we do have the utility corridor there. We do need to maintain utilities. Um we both have a storm a large storm sewer that runs the the length of the corridor as well as a sanitary that runs about 3/4 of that corridor. So some of those trees may be impacted just because utilities. Um I think do I do think most of them are are generally to our our utilities are more to the west than they are to the east. Um but we there if the whole corridor is maintained you have 50 ft to potentially put a a pathway. So that could be an option. Right. And and just uh one other uh followup in regard to uh sort of the process uh and I just lost my train of thought here, so I'll recognize council member Strong. I saw her put her hand up and I'll try to figure out what it was. Thank you. Um, I just was wondering, um, I think the for me the most challenging in walking that is knowing at the south end of Miss Brown's property at 1705. Um, kind of the path peters out there and so it's unclear where it is and you kind of end up feeling like I'm walking toward their driveway and I don't feel right about that, but it felt like I was part of this whole process until I got to here. Um, would that be a possibility of if we were going to retain this area where we could really just more kind of end it so it it doesn't go, you know, kind of veer off into someone else's yard because I feel like throughout much of it, it's pretty clear where your next steps are and you're you're kind of you're kind of on the edge, but when you get to the end and um kind of backing up to like 93, they have um there's like a garden and and it just feels like you don't know exactly how to it from where you are to the road without walking onto Miss Brown's property. So, I certainly it could be delineated. Obviously, if the pathway was improved, that would clarify it as well, right? And that brings up a good point, which is we already have uh a a driveway structure and access to a garage that is on uh part of that uh road right away now adjacent to that property. Uh and so it would seem uh that certainly uh we may not be able to maintain a pathway easement across the whole width in that vicinity just for that reason. Um you know because I'm sure the property owner is wants to be conforming with with their access. And right now you know clearly I think I'm guessing that all the structure in the driveway was probably put in before uh the dedication of the uh of the um the easement for for roadway purposes in the 50s or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, that's a consideration that we just have to keep in mind, too. So, I guess I once again turn it back to the council and I guess my question was on the E lime trail. I remembered it. Um, what kind of maintenance do we do on that in the winter time in terms of clearing snow and that sort of thing? You know, honestly, I don't know. I'd have to I'd have to ask Parks that question. I I think we plow it, but I I I I'd be guessing. So, Okay. All right. Mayor, Council Member Grath, what is the minimum path width we would need to have the the uh like improved pathway with or rightway with? Right away for if we were going to keep a pathway there. So, I would say if it was more of like a a sidewalk standard, um we need at least 10 ft. Um if we're going to put any sort of auminous pathway or if it's going to meander, we would typically go for 20 feet. Um, for example, we we did up on Ridgewood and that it the the Ridgewood one that uh we previously looked at that that meanders a little bit, but we did retain 20 ft there just because it did me meander. Um, so typically we don't do it. One thing council could do is if you if if you want to consider um a pathway in the future, we could vacate it after the pathway is determined where it is if you want to just keep it as is. Um I would I would caution against um vacating and just trying to maintain it and then trying to force the pathway into the TW a certain corridor. Um that might cause a lot more impacts potentially. So um I would say if if we do vary the uh vacation the the description of what it is, we will have to do a besides what's in the packet, we'd have to do a separate public hearing on that. So, a separate public hearing if we decide to only if we want to vacate just the east 30 feet or the west 20 ft or just only keep the middle 20 ft or something, we have to we have to renotice that and and and formally and so it sounds like because we're not the current request and the current plan is current request do anything with the pathway the current request is to vacate the entire rightway have to do a second another hearing if we want to do anything different than that. Correct. Anyway, okay. So, potentially, I don't know, would that be a tableabling action or would that just be a a denial at that point? Oh, I first I just I'm looking down at the end to see if we've got recommendation as to the what we can or should do in in that particular case. It sounds like we would have to have another hearing if we're doing something different than what's being requested this evening. So that sounds more to me like we should if the desire is not to do what we're being asked to do this evening, we might have to say no as opposed to just tableabling it for subsequent action. But maybe it's a difference without a distinction. Mayor, I'm not I'm not um I'm not familiar with any specific requirements that would say you couldn't amend what you're vacating in some way. Normally the issue of notice is are the people who would want to know about it have they been told that this is happening and what is intended to be happen what is intended to happen and so as long as you're kind of within the within the context of what was originally proposed. I'm generally not worried about new notifications. Um I'm looking at the statute now and it doesn't say the council must adopt exactly what they notified. Um so does that mean we wouldn't necessarily have to have a second hearing then? I think that does mean that you wouldn't necessarily have to have a second hearing, but it I would caution you to amend that on the fly to to try to draw the right lines on the fly. Um that that would be my my bigger concern would be trying to write down what you had decided um without having had the public works department kind of thoughtfully look at it and and figure out where all those lines are. Okay. Council member Bower, my question follows along that line going back to a point that you made, Mayor, regarding the wording on this and what does that look like if there's concerns or if we have concerns changing that wording similar to what you're saying doing it on the fly. Curious to get thoughts on that. Well, Council Member Bower, I I didn't I didn't speak with my colleague about why she put that language there. What I will say is I have a lot of respect for her and I bet she had a good reason. I I don't know what it is. So, um, if if you were inclined to adopt the resolution, my recommendation would be to to lay that over and get an explanation for what that's about. It is different than the other resolution. I looked at those. Um, and generally she's got a reason she does stuff. So, um, I I respect and defer to her judgment. Right. So, that would be a case if even if we wanted to proceed, we and we're not comfortable with that language or not sure of it, we would probably just do a motion to table at that point. Right. Uh, Council Member Strong, I am willing to offer a motion to table this um pending language discussion as well as um make sure we know what we're deciding. So, we're um and where we're going with that. And I'm open to amendments on what that um revisions look like. Uh there would not be an an amendment to that motion uh except uh perhaps to define the purpose of tableabling. Um because you could certainly I mean you wouldn't even necessarily need to define the purpose but it sometimes helps to provide direction u as to what what we need uh when the thing comes back. Um so but we could make it broad. We could say it's it's you know either to clarify language and or to do other things and then it comes back with all the answers to those questions. That may be the thing. But once again there's no discussion on a motion to a table. So before a motion is made and seconded, we may want to clarify anything we need to get clarified uh from that perspective in the form of feedback from council members. Um so I think it would be exceptionally helpful to understand this uh 50 ft how it is impacted what is happening on it where these trees stand where the um if there was to be a path through that's 10 feet or 20 feet if it's u finished or not. um where that falls within that that makes sense and is reasonable and so people know what they're you know commenting or not commenting on. Sounds like largely the people who are adjacent are opposed but the people who utilize it and live peripherally are are in support of keeping this. So I think seems like we need more information from uh and comment from some a wider neighborhood than just the eight homes. And it seems like we also need to understand what improvement we might want to consider if any. Thoughts from council members in terms of uh where folks are leaning in terms of whether or not to look at a pathway and certainly you don't have to be supportive of the final decision to do a pathway if you want to take a look at it. Uh, but I certainly also want to sort of be respectful of staff as well. And if if there isn't interest by on the part of the council to to take a look at what it might take to do a pathway, then I want to understand that and make sure that the public and the staff understand that at this point, too. So, I'd be curious to hear from council members in terms of um looking at the pathway versus not looking at the pathway uh and um how we might go forward. Council member Grath. So, looking at the pathway, um I do feel like I don't have enough information to make a decision on that tonight. Uh one of my concerns with the pathway is it does come out onto Roselon. There's no sidewalk along the north side of Roselon. Yes, you can cross that, but there isn't a crosswalk to the one on the south side in Falcon Heights. So, you know, there is a bit of a safety issue there. And uh the same with coming out of Mid Oaks Lane. There may be a little walk along that edge, but I know mostly, you know, from doornocking, you're sort of walking along the edge of the road there. And there is traffic on Rose Lawn. So, so those are my concerns. I mean, what would the pathway look like? Would it damage the trees? Um, obviously, we we can ask a forester, I suppose, about that because oak trees are are fragile as far as their root systems go. Um, so those are my concerns. Great. Other thoughts from council members? Council member Sharter. Yeah, actually I was going to echo what U. Council member Grath said because of the safety issue and then um you know the whole um pathway um piece. Um I I would be against any developed pathway going through that. I think to cut down trees or to harm those trees, I think would not be a good I think you'd lose everything that people loved about that area. So, I I I would not want to have um any kind of development around that. Um, and I'm I'm I'm a little um vague on it seems like most of the time in the city if it's a pathway we develop it and maintain it or we give it back to the people to maintain themselves. So this kind of vague piece I'm a little confused about if we're are we going to have a pathway and maintain it or are we going to try to keep it natural and let the the homeowners Yeah. So, I'm I'm a little bit vague on on what what is it that we're actually I think asking our history is is that if it's a city pathway of whatever type it is, the city maintains the pathway. I think the question as to what happens up to the edge of it in terms of what maybe adjacent property owners do, I think, but would that be a developed pathway then? Well, regardless of what it is, I mean, you know, I think if if we own the pathway, even if it's an ox cart, you know, path, um, we own it and so we've got to maintain that in some fashion, we have that responsibility. Um, but I think in a lot of cases, it seems that, and maybe even the some of the cases in the same neighborhood, the neighbors basically maintain up to the edge of the property unless, you know, there's a reason not to, but uh, I don't know, Mr. Fryhammer, if you've got feedback on that. Yeah, I I would say we don't consider this a pathway currently. It's an existing rightaway corridor doing anything. Correct. It's a utility corridor, which is why it probably has back when we put the utilities in, that's what cut the trees, so people and people were aware it was public right away. So, that's probably why it's been used as a as a as a informal pathway. But, the city is not doing any maintenance on it to perpetuate or do it. Like I said, we did put a curb cut in back in the day. I don't know any history on it, but there was a curb cut there. Um, and that's on the north end. On the north end. I don't believe there's one on the south end. Um, if if if it if council does decide it wants to be on the pathway master plant, that doesn't necessarily mean it gets built. We've typically then prioritized it. So that would just be maintaining a corridor. So theoretically that that could just be maintained. Now, if there is no want to maintain or do it, vacation would clarify that and then um it would it would certainly clean that up. We would still have utility corridor, but there'd be no public rights to to access it. And I think if I remember from prior hearings and and other vacations, um even if it m was kept as city rightway for the purpose of having a street there someday, technically we expect the the adjoining property owners to maintain that if I remember how this works because just like when we have a road in front of our house, we maintain up to the curb even though the city owns maybe 15t or so um for rightway purposes. Correct. still mow the lawn. We still maintain it and not have it just as dirt and things like that. Correct. Basically, the only time we would do maintenance in this corridor currently is if we need to access the storm sewer or the sanitary. So, um after walking the corridor, I don't think we've done anything dramatically cuz where we have our catch basin and manholes are very accessible. There's not a lot of trees growing down. So, I doubt we've done a lot of formal maintenance in the last 10 years at least. So, I'm still not sure where the maybe the council's not sure where the council's at either uh in terms of this. Um, you know, like I said, we can we can table it and not be specific about what we want, but I don't know that that's 100% helpful to the process. Um, and we can table it for a very specific reason that does or does not include a pathway. So, I guess we need to come to some conclusion. Uh, Councilman O'Graph, refresh my memory if you can on the one by McCarron's. It was up on the hill and it went along the back of the properties. Yes. Um we did change that into a maintained pathway if I remember correctly and it was correct. So we so that was one where we had um was more of a platted alley but we platted road right away. Okay. Um it was not on the pathway master plan. We kind of tabled that. We end up doing the the formal pathway pro uh process. We did add it to the pathway plan. We do hope to construct that formalize that construction um later this year on that one and it got prioritized as part of the process. Yep. It got prioritized and there was there was uh we had done phase one of the Tamarak funding or a couple years ago. So there was some park remaining park dedication funds or there was some remaining park funds. I don't remember which one that were set aside to f to to make that final corridor connection. One more question. Sure. Is there a way that we could do the 20 ft on the west side so Miss Brown could have her driveway and all those things? We'd have to look at the quarter a little like to avoid the the the the um the driveway impact. Yeah, I mean we'd have to look at it. Um obviously the pathway might need to meander if you're doing it, but that might create some additional tree impacts potentially, but we'd have we'd have to survey the corridor to figure that out exactly. And certainly conceivably you could maintain or or vacate the 20 feet on the south half of the corridor and not on the north half if that was the decision just because of this whole driveway issue. Yeah. And certainly like I mentioned before if you decide to do a pathway and you want to formalize location then you could certainly vacate outside of that but to try to guess ahead of time that might cause some issues. Right. So, it really comes down to is is uh does the council want uh to do the research on potential pathway through there uh or do we want to table for other purposes or do we want to take action this evening? Mayor, I'd like to propose tableabling for uh discussion of the uh public uh pathway in that area as well as changing the language to for clarification from the lawyer. Well, clarifying the language, we don't necessarily have to change it. Uh this once again would not be a motion that could be discussed by the council once it's seconded and action is appropriate. Uh is there a you did make a motion to table for those two purposes? Right. Uh is there a second to that motion? I would second that. All right. We have the motion to table for those two purposes. Uh discussion on that motion. Oh no, no, no discussion. I just said that. All those and that was made by council member Stron. Seconded by council member Gra. my paperwork in order here. Uh, all those in favor of the motion to table for those two purposes say I. Clarification. As long as it's not discussion. Point of clarification. Point of clarification. So that would mean we would be going ahead with a pathway then. We would go ahead with getting information on the pathway potentially. Vote on the actually happening later. Absolutely. This is just an action to table any action on this item. All right. So once again, we've got the motion to table for those two purposes. Uh all those in favor signify by saying I I opposed. That motion passes unanimously. Uh and this item is tabled for those two purposes. Uh thank you again to everyone for their public comment and I guess more to come. Uh with that then we do have our final item this evening which is the uh item which I believe is resolution four up on the screen right now. uh which is just to uh uh vacate those left and right shoulders so to speak of the existing corridor between Skilman and Shrier just north of the previous item. Uh is there anyone here who wishes to speak to this particular vacation this evening? Feel free to come on up and uh make your comments in uh support or opposition to this particular item or if you have a question. Again, I'm Olivia G. I live at 2021 Hershel Street. Um I'm I'm somewhat confused after listening to the discussion here about what will be happening. Um this is a walkway that is my son used to go to elementary school. I'm a volunteer at that elementary school. I go I use that path three days a week constantly. People do use it. Um, it was once in terrible shape and is now in much better shape. Um, in the last I decades go by, but the last 10 years it's gotten to be in much better shape. I don't know, as I look at it, there are some dead trees along it. I don't know if property owners want to become responsible for those trees or not. Um I anyway I don't understand quite what would be happening and if it is a sidewalk as opposed to the other one and then there is you do end up on the street and then you're back on the sidewalk to get to Brimhol but I hope it will be maintained. Um and I'm not sure what the plan is for it from what we've just said but thank you. Right. Thank you for your comments and question. Uh is there anyone else who wishes to speak on this particular one? Hello and welcome. Thank you. My name is Janet Risinger. I live at 1797 Shrier uh which is just to the um to the west of this pathway. My two children are now, you know, in their 30s, but they uh use that pathway every day to go to school. And there are numerous children that I see walk past my um big picture window every day to go to school. And I think some of them are even from across Fair View that decide they want to walk to school and use that pathway or that sidewalk. Um I would be very um very upset if it was not maintained as a sidewalk. Um I I'm I'm not sure whether I can ask a question at this time. Right. Um the question would arise of like what Olivia said was who will be responsible for the trees that are clearly, you know, they've been they need maintenance or they need to be taken down. They're kind of really not very nice anymore. They could use some new plantings perhaps. Um my other question is if all these property owners um get this additional land, are their property taxes going to go up um for the extra land that they have been given? So thank you. Right. Thank you for your comments and questions. Anyone else wish to speak to this item? Okay. again. Um, my kids use that path. But, um, I looked at your map and I'm Cindy Gallagher. I live at 2009 Hersel. So, from looking at your map, what it appears to my eye is that you're not intending to do anything with the sidewalk at all. There would be no change in the sidewalk. It's only the the property up to the sidewalk because the houses that are on Skilman already have the property up to the sidewalk, but the houses that are on Shrier do not according to the way you have your map drawn. So in that case, the houses that are on Skilman would be responsible for the dead trees. And that is the same somebody asked that question. So with the oak trees along the path, it's the same thing. Who's going to take care of those trees? And so any tree, the trees that are for the people that are on Skilman, the city wouldn't do anything for those trees right now because it is their property up to the sidewalk. Do I interpret your your map correctly? Stay tuned for an answer to that question. Thank you. Yes. Does anyone else wish to speak to this item? Yeah. Hello again, Kevin Watson. Um, 2001 Aldine Street. My kids use this path all the time to go to Brim Hall. So, it's a great path and they're able to navigate uh the roadway to path to roadway uh to path fairly easily. So, um, but, uh, I, you know, in pondering this, it feels like there's an opportunity to educate neighbors of rightaway and easement on what they're able to do with, uh, that property. And I was just googling real quick and I think there's plenty of examples of flyers that, you know, public works could create to, you know, mail to the neighbors of these properties that uh can, you know, uh explain what is acceptable to the city of Roseville for those pathways or or those rights ways and easements. So hopefully uh that's a positive that can come out of uh this conversation. So that's all. Thanks. Thanks. Is there anyone else who wishes to speak to this item? Right, we'll go ahead and close the public hearing. Uh, and in answer to some of the questions and Mr. Fryhammer is is ready uh to jump in too. Um, so uh the purpose of this is not to get rid of the pathway or the sidewalk. Uh that it the purpose of this is to not hold on to the property on each side that the city isn't going to use to do a wider road through there. That's kind of what this whole general process is is a lot of places in the city, we've maintained these wide strips of land o for years and years and years under the thought that initially somebody thought that there would be a road built there and the city has determined over that time that there's not a purpose to put a road there. Uh and in so a lot of these cases we're we're vacating the excess portion on the sides that the city doesn't need um for that for a road because we're not going to build a road there. And very true on the north side where uh you know just south of Skilman those property owners own property up to it's probably not right up to the pathway but it's it's you know if it's I don't know if it's 10 foot or 15 or 20 ft but up to that point that is owned by the property owners and certainly they're responsible for tree maintenance on their property which is their property. Similarly on the south side here, if we approve this vacation, those little strips would revert back to this the property owners on each side and they would be responsible for trees and yards and gardens and anything on that property because it is their property once again. Um and so that's what the this whole process is and what the purpose of it is. Um and I can answer the question on the property tax too. Uh certainly your uh property gets bigger and so there is some incremental increase to the value of your property typically when it gets assessed. Um as to whether you pay more in taxes, it really becomes a function of what the city does in terms of our tax levy because the way taxes are calculated is that the county takes our total dollar value that we certify to the county each year and divides it up among the properties based on their value proportionally essentially. Um, and so certainly if you have a little more property and the the levy didn't change, your your taxes would still go up a little bit because of that proportionally larger property. If the if you get a little more property and the levy goes up a lot, your taxes go up that much more because in addition to your additional property, everybody's taxes went up by a certain amount because the levy increased. So hopefully that kind of gives you at least a little bit of the mechanics of it because it's like something I could spend two hours talking about and nobody wants that. Um, so hopefully that helps on that question. Um, and certainly it's not something that the city does in in a in an effort to collect more taxes because like I said, we just certify an amount to the county every year and the county determines who pays it based on property values. And so, um, it's the amount that we certify that we're in charge of as the city and the same with the school district as well as the county levy. Um, so there's a little extra property taxon for you. Um, Mr. Fryhammer, was there anything I misstated or anything you want to add to uh to the answer to the questions about the maintenance and the trees and things like that? Um, I would just state if if you know the current corridor since it is an improved at least for pathways, yes, we would maintain them. Um, I would say certainly if we decide to vacate this, we can certainly look at those trees prior to doing that. If we weren't maintaining them, we could certainly look at that. Um, if they're certainly dead ones, I don't think that would be appropriate to turn that burden directly over to the property owner. So, so we can look at that. I know we we should have this in our tree inventory. And I just I I you'd have to look at the corridor specifically um on that. But we could certainly look at that before we if council does choose to vacate this, we can do that before we do the notice of completion or something like that. Okay. And I know that's come up on other corridors before that we've either been able to or not been able to, but correct. Once we vacate that the the all if the 20 ft that would be given up if there was trees in those corridors those would be future property owners um to maintain or current property owners or current property owners. Mr. is is does this one have an easement for utilities or not? Yeah, we still maintain utility easement full width. Yep. Okay. Thanks. All right. Uh with that, we do have the request before us to adopt the resolution attachment for uh vacating the roadway, rightway, andor easement, depending on what it is, on either side of the pathway uh as outlined. Is there a motion on that? So moved. Second. All right. It's been moved by Council Member Gra, seconded by Council Member Bower uh to approve the resolution attachment for vacating that uh roadway purpose property control. Uh with is there any discussion on the motion either by the maker or the seconder? Further council discussion. Uh if not all those in favor signify by saying I. I opposed. That passes unanimously meeting the fourth requirement. Uh and that is approved. Thank you again everyone who's been here this evening. Hopefully it's been an edification process for you as well as it was for us. Uh more to come on the second to last item. Uh and uh feel free to stick around for the rest of our business this evening because it is fascinating. cliffhanger. All right, with that, uh, we have, uh, uh, next on our business items, item 7B, uh, which is to receive some feedback on the commission interview process. Uh, and we have our assistant city manager, Rebecca Olsson, as well as our volunteer coordinator, Rachel Bogs, uh, with us this evening to, uh, bring this feedback to us. Thank you, mayor, council members. Um this is really an opportunity for the council to provide any feedback related to the interview process for commission vacancies this past um goound. As you know, you um uh interviewed in February, appointed in March. Following those uh interviews, we conduct a simple survey of applicants just to get some feedback. We thought this was a good opportunity to bring back whatever um information we've received over the last couple years. Um it's not scientific. It's a snapshot in time. Um but we did hear just a couple things that we thought we'd just bring up as long as you're considering um the what may or may not change. Information in your packet does talk about the number of respondents to this survey and it is quite low. So take that as um little bit of a grain of salt. But some of the the big picture things that we heard um were that as we know the interviews can seem a little bit short with an attempt to we had a really large number of applicants this last time. Um so trying to get all of them in and out the door. Um but that was one thing that we did here is sometimes it it can feel like they didn't get an opportunity to say everything they wanted to say. Um the other things that we have heard occasionally have been that people are looking for feedback. Um the I think the commissions are coveted spot for a lot of the people that apply and so they're always looking for ways that they can um make sure that they have what you're looking for maybe the next goound. So either feedback that we can provide them on um what they can do to improve their chances next time or even um I think somebody had indicated having some type of position description for uh commissioners that has kind of like a job application qualifications what you're looking for. Um, so I just thought we would throw that out there as you were talking about things, but really this is an opportunity for you to provide us feedback on if there are things that you think would work better for the next go round, which is this fall. Um, and our uh, volunteer manager, Rachel Bogs, is here because she really leads this process and she knows the the details of it. Uh, so if you have questions, she's here to help answer those as well. All right. Thank you. Uh, questions from the council or feedback? I guess counc um I thought it went pretty well considering the number of applicants. It's always a challenge at least for me and I think for the council to get the information from the applicants and also I know the mayor always says you know we have way more applicants that are very qualified and it's not a scientific thing. I wish I could say if you'd only said this you would have pro, you know, that isn't how it works for me anyway. Sure. So I I don't quite know how we can uh change that part of the process, the feedback to the applicants. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's where I would struggle with that trying to figure out how I would do that as a council member and I don't know how you could do it as staff very easily either. I think that's hard. Yeah. The challenge that I was in thinking about that was, you know, because we make our decisions in public and we say, we would have to say essentially publicly why we don't think they're good enough. And I don't know that that serves people's, you know, positive personal outlook for it's not the same for all and it's not and we're never saying that, you know, the person is bad for the position. We're always saying everybody's very qualified and these were our choices. So, but I I would be concerned about having us to be up here publicly saying, "Well, you know, I it was the length of your hair. I you know, it was whatever it was." You know, I mean, anything would just seem like it would not necessarily be constructive and it's being broadcast to the public. So, yeah, you know, it just seems seems wrong. But, you know, obviously job interviews are different because they're not like that. Uh, Council Member Strong. Well, I think it's important for people to realize that we're making up a body and we have to take who's already on the body. So, we already have to take the people who are already there. So, if it's six women, maybe we feel like it'd be great to maybe have someone who's not a woman, you know, but it could be a commission that's exactly the opposite. It's just we want to have different voices saying, you know, sharing different things. I think that's I mean council member Schroeder mentioned this last time we want to make sure that we have different voices so that we get a different set of ideas and so we it just varies you know what you know sometimes I know at one point we were trying to look at different parts of the city where do people live within the city well if everybody lives in the same neighborhood I'm so glad that was a really effective national night out that everybody wants to be a but maybe we have to make sure that somebody from the northwest quadrant of Roseville if they you know I I think it's imprecise I don't know and it changes and it changes what could be really one way sometimes it'd be like oh that person would be so great had they applied last time but this time we really need this other piece to fill in and it depends on where people are in their terms or if it's just three months left or you know I guess it it it is less precise than a job description where you get all of the details because you're making up you're making up a body of people who have a lot of different ideas so that we get the best counsel we can and um input from the community. So, but I thought the overall compared to four years ago when I started, I feel like it continues to get smoother. Um I really appreciate the consistent questions, the fact that people have the opportunity to review them in advance. Some people don't take that opportunity and some people really do and it's pretty noticeable sometimes. So I think it's really helpful if people really understand what their scope is of what they're doing and um not just repeating it's well it's an advisory council and it's like yeah but what does that mean? So maybe having a deeper understanding, maybe a way for people to dig a little bit more into what that looks like. And but the people who watch a few meetings and come in, they really do have a different perspective. That's really appreciated. And I appreciate even though they maybe aren't always selected, I appreciate they take that. That really shows me they did more than just, you know, read the banner on the website that they actually dug a little bit deeper and and I know they'll give as much a more thoughtful answer to what we're asking of them. Uh, Council Member Sharter, and the other piece is um you have five different individuals up here who have five different reasons why they are voting for someone on a commission, too. So, we each have our own um how we look at it in the skill set. So, to to say this is the reason someone didn't get on, you're going to get five different answers. And I don't think that's helpful for people to hear that because it as as was just stated and then depending on um who's on the commission and and and different you know mix of it. So, I don't think they're asking to have feedback is a reasonable request. I don't think that would be very productive. I think it could be more harmful than productive actually on that side of it. Um, we did get a lot of people who applied. And so I guess I'm why fix something that's not broken. I guess if if we're getting that many people to it seemed like the process last time around if we had that many people apply something worked. So um you know the um I know the difficult piece is you know people said they might want more time to be able to say what they want to say but that becomes a very long night then too. So I guess what I would what I would recommend to people is write more in their application if they want to really get something across. you can because you can actually make that a lengthy answer to your questions in the application if you really want to make some point because the interview is more to recap that versus to you know go through in detail. So I guess if if they wanted to somehow have more in front of us that would be my only suggestion. So, I will say I do coach candidates as they're coming in that if you have something that is very important to you, you really want to say make sure you say that first because there is limited time. Good idea. Sure. Um, and I and I I'll certainly recognize other council members, too, but I I did want to say, too, before I forget it, that um I I agree that I think when when commission applicants do their homework, I think that's something we should emphasize because it shows and and it's not just, you know, well, if they did their homework, then they automatically get appointed because they could do their homework and still, you know, not be a fit for other reasons or do their homework and and, you know, not do very well at their homework or whatever it might be. But I think it does show that they've, you know, that they have that extra level of interest. And it helps, I think, that applicants be able then to have more informed answers to to our interview questions. Um, and even if I think even if I I I got the sense that there were applicants, especially in this round, who maybe even kind of practiced or wrote out ahead of time some of the answers to the the four or five questions that we put out there, which helped them to be able to organize their thoughts and answer them even if they weren't reading it off a piece of paper um ahead of time. So certainly I think doing doing the advanced preparation doing the homework and understanding the commission you know one of the criteria that certainly is important as as I look at it is how well do they understand what the role of the commission is beyond just being advisory to the city council you know I think you know taking that next level of research like you're saying council and and understanding you know what it is really that the commission is doing I think that helps uh council member power did you receive any feedback about the questions or the consistently you know using the consistent questions that we did that they felt that they were unable to, you know, best articulate their viewpoints or whatnot. I know during some of the interviews, you know, the question was asked and I think the candidates that were, as you mentioned, did their homework and were more prepared were able to take that question but answer different questions or other things. I was be curious to know if you received any feedback about I really wish that you know I didn't feel that those questions asked um showed me in the best light or allowed me to best articulate you know who I am and why I'm qualified for this committee. I did not hear specific feedback. I had one candidate say that all of the I think there was there four or five questions. I can't remember one of the questions was not asked but we're very clear to say these are questions that you might be asked. So we don't say you will ask them all five. I I did hear that from one person otherwise the actual questions I did not hear any feedback about. And looking at the survey um it's possible that it was many years ago when we first started using the the questions. There were people that had indicated that they were appreciative that we were sharing these questions so that they could be better better prepared. But I don't recall specifically um any specific comments that the questions didn't allow them opportunity. And I did I do have some interest or or curiosity about the potential to have some sort of commissioner job description if that's the right phrase for it. You know, and do you do something generic that works and serves all the commissions or do you do specific ones for each commission? I almost want to say that that might have been one of the the assignments of that process of having the commissions look at their scope, duties, and functions was maybe to look at something like that, but I can't remember for sure. But, uh, you know, it'd be interesting to see because that might help also inform it besides just having sort of what's in the what's in the ordinance. Maybe there's, you know, something that can flesh that out a little more maybe and talk more about and maybe it's in the commissioner handbook too already as well. So, there's that. Well, mayor, you've touched on a couple things. Um, we are in the process of updating that commissioner handbook. I do know that the former um human rights inclusion and engagement commission was working on a POS position description for their role um at one point. Um I do believe other other commissions have kind of guidelines. Um, but I also know that that one of the strategic goals that you have asked staff to look at is um related to kind of commissions and elected officials and making sure they feel that they can be part of that decision-m. I did not get that sub summarized correctly, but we are working on that and it's possible that some of the objectives tied to that could come out with the commission process as well. Don't know what that looks like yet, but um I think there are some opportunities for ways we could potentially do something like that. Council member St. I fully stand behind having the consistent questions behind everyone, but I think questions as an interview always change and improve. And I think if we are working as a body to make sure that um our mission and vision and things as a comm as a community are articulated that's certainly something we could consider more closely aligning. I think the goal has been to make sure it the questions are accessible to everyone. So someone might answer them at a um you know PhD level and someone may not. Um, so I think it I try to try not to get them too detailed, but I love the fact that for differing reading and writing abilities, we provide them in advance so somebody has the opportunity even if it's just to look at them while if they're nervous or whatever. Um, that's really best practice in education, best practice in interviewing, and I would really advocate for continuing to do that. But I think the evolution of how we ask the question in a way to get what we want out of that and evoke the kind of responses we want is perfectly legitimate and and you know shows that we're open to continuous change. Other thoughts, feedback? Hopefully that's helpful. Um, I think the the general feedback is we've got a good process and it's it's been improving and maybe there's some tweaking we can do, but uh, you know, no wholesale redo or anything like that at this point. I think it's much improved from where we were. And I mean, so many people say that it's because um, Rachel Bogs has told them to apply. Um, it's because of positive relationships and positive interactions they've had with Rachel that they even consider it. Oh, I never thought I'd be consider this, but because I was asked and because she believes that I could do well at this job, I'm willing to try. So, really kudos to you. I think it's it a lot has to do with the relationships you've built with a lot of these people. Good job. Thank you. Well, I think certainly on the parks and recck side of it, we get a lot of connections through their their efforts as well. Uh, and I think that that, you know, over the years we've had council members and other commissioners do some outreach along those lines. And it is that personal connection that can make a lot of difference. I do outreach, but I can't keep up. So, yeah. Well, no. Yeah. I mean, it's not our job. That's by comparison. We're not professionals, but it's very appreciated. So, I mean, I think we do need to continue to try to do what we can to diversify in socioeconomics and in um you know, renters versus homeowners and all the different ways that somebody could be sliced or diced into demographics, but um um you know, young parents and but there is a reality in that is that when you have young parents and maybe a full-time job, you just don't have time for it. But I think there continues to be the older adult saying as someone who probably fits into the category um the older adult appreciation um who do that. So it is always really nice when some of the younger people come forward to bring a different perspective too. Right. Thank you again and we look forward to the process in the fall. Thank you. Right. With that council, I'll just double check. We're approaching 8 o'clock. Do we want to take a short break or are we ready to uh finish our agenda this evening? I'd say finish. Yeah, I'd like to finish. Okay, we'll proceed. Uh that brings us then to item uh 7C, which is to uh discuss uh consider changes to our massage therapy establishment uh regulations specifically related to uh the potentially the number of establishment licenses. And I'm not sure if I didn't hear ahead of time, is this Mr. Treasurer or Miss Olsson is staying at the table? So, it must be Miss Olson. Uh, thank you. And I'll turn it over to you for this item. Thank you, Mayor Councel. Um, this is probably not going to be a really in-depth conversation. We're really just looking for guidance and what we would want to bring back to you if you decide to move in this direction, but wanted to provide some information on why we were bringing this concept back to you. Uh, as you know, the last time we talked about this was April of 2023, and at that time, um, we set the cap and then removed the cap. we had 24 um establishments that were licensed. Since that time, we've received um more establishments. We now have 29 and that includes 13 establishments that have their own employees and then we have 16 sole proprietors. Um out of that doesn't include we also have two chiropractor clinics that have that are operating massage services and those are explicitly exempted out from our um our ordinance. So that leaves us with um when we talk about not just the establishments but we also have the therapists. We have 91 licensed therapists plus the sole proprietors here and um so with all that this is coming forward because um for a couple reasons. One is that we do know that there is a recognized issue in the massage therapy establishment that human trafficking is is um an issue that there have been studies done that really state that massage establishments are among the types of businesses that have been used to conceal trafficking operations and um you know Minnesota is not immune to that. We have uh there is a lot of time and resources that is spent uh researching schools um employees uh history, reaching out to other jurisdictions, doing background checks. Um before we get to the actual licensing of therapists. Um, and so what we're finding is that it is becoming increasingly more difficult to do our due diligence and making sure that all of these therapists and establishments are um, I guess, for lack of better term, on the up and up because as those human trafficking and um, other issues come up, they become more sophisticated and we're having a hard time keeping up with that sophistication. And so what we're looking at is are there other ways besides necessarily doing all of our background checks and everything that we can use in our toolbox to really help us um I guess um keep in line with making sure that we can keep up with doing our due diligence and does it mean that we have to look at a different policy tool so that we can make sure that we're not h anything's falling through the cracks. Um, we do have in our ordinance that we can do, um, you know, the establishments have to kind of allow the police to come in and and review the licenses of the therapist there. We don't do any specific compliance checks. Um, this is not something that I would even offer. Uh, I haven't had a conversation with our police department because that is an excessive burden on them as well. But I would want to see if there's um any desire from council to look at potential options um along with a cap on the establishments. One of the other things that we've noticed is that um with our massage therapists, not the establishment but the therapists, we require certain types of um education and certain number of hours that they provide us from an accredited school. What we're finding is that there are uh several schools that were accredited that people may have graduated from many years ago that are no longer accredited and our ordinance doesn't specifically speak to that um whether that is allowed or not allowed. In addition, we just recently learned that the state of Minnesota um has a not just an accreditation service, but they also do um like a license and registration process for certain schools. typically for schools that provide certificates rather than diplomas. It's not necessarily a degree that they're seeking, but a certificate. And so, our ordinance isn't um hasn't taken into consideration that. That's something new that we found out. And we're having more therapists come and apply with some of these situations. So, what we're looking at is wondering if council is interested in a couple things of one, is there any desire to look at options on the cap or other things um to really help us address the um making sure that we're doing our due diligence so that we can have a safe massage establishment here in Roseville? Um and are you interested in revisiting the ordinance related to the schooling with accreditation and our license and registration? If any of those are a yes, we would definitely come back um working with our police department and our city attorney um with some potential ordinance amendments or or along those lines. If no, if we're okay with where we're at, we we can just continue to to move forward. So, that is the end of my Oh, I did want to um in your packet you have a couple um attachments. There is one attachment. It's a list of establishments. There are some highlighted on there that we forgot to mention what those mean. The ones that are highlighted on attachment A are the ones that have employees. The ones that are not highlighted are the sole proprietors. Um the second attachment is really just research that was done by our deputy clerk on what some other cities have as requirements under their establishment. I'm sorry, under their licensing for their therapists. And then I did pull this um because those numbers were a little I'm more visual and so if I could get the overhead camera I don't know if it can too far over I think might I don't know where it says I don't know if it looks like it's on. They're working on it. Usually there would be a light colored spot on the table. I don't see it. Um, if you had it electronically, would you? Well, I didn't put it on this computer, unfortunately, because it was um I'll explain what it is and then you can see it when it pops up. It's really just um establishments per capita. So, um, how many establishments per thousand people by city? Um, because it will demonstrate that Roseville is in kind of the top three for the number of establishments per capita. Um, even obviously St. Paul has a higher number, but based on their population. So, um, Roseville, St. Louis Park and White Bear Lake um have anywhere between like 08 to one establishment per thousand people in their in their um in their city. So it's just another way of looking at that information that's already in your packet. So you see up here Blaine Cottage Grove on the uh the screens at the DES and on the big screen too. We don't that's kind of maybe another switch. There we go. Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. And I believe that also is for the people at home to be able to see it. Yeah. Right. So, that is um all I wanted to share with you this evening and looking for some guidance on um if you're interested in pursuing any of those as of right now. Right. And I was just going to note on this since you have it up here. So if we were to match St. Paul's per capita, I think that would get us to something like 10 licenses establishments. Uh and if we even just sort of added another a little bit, uh we could get to 20. Um I guess that I can't it'd be like I didn't do it per capita. So at one per 1800 residents, so I guess that would be 0.9 instead of where we are. Anyway, it's got to be different than that. Anyway, uh, Council Member Sher, a couple of questions. Um, I noticed looking at your and thank you for putting together the other cities and how many they have. It was interesting to see say like, um, Maplewood and Cottage Grove, which are bigger populationwise, but such a small number of establishments, but their requirements didn't seem to be any more tougher than ours. Why? Why are theirs so much lower than ours? Why is Roseville like the hot bed of this? Do we have any idea why? Location, location. I know, but I mean Maplewood isn't, you know, anyways on that piece. And then um do we charge enough in our fees to cover the expenses to um do our comp our checks? And you say we're not doing compliance checks, correct? which makes no sense to me that we have requirements and not check them because it we check applications. We do the research on those. We don't do on-site compliance checks like we do with smoking and liquor. I think that's we have in our ordinance that they have to have it displayed and all that, but we don't actually check that. So, it doesn't seem to be a good uh tool if we're not you, you know. So that that that there seems to be and and so the question would be then do we need um higher fees to copy that or do we need le I mean I'm I'm just trying to find out a little more of the background on why why uh council member Sharter I don't have an answer as to why we have so many here. It's a question we've asked ourselves. we had come back, this was I don't remember exactly when it was, but we had added some additional criteria for our licensing because we were seeing more and more come through. Um, and that didn't seem to make them slow down a whole lot. Uh, so I don't have a good answer for that. Um, I do know that police do use some of the criteria that are in our our ordinance already when there's issues, but as I allude to, this is a really difficult crime to even prove. I mean, it's rarely reported. It's difficult to prove victims. It It's just very, very difficult. So we had the and we put those additional things in there to give the excuse for people to go into these establishment and kind of look around as more of a tool to actually because even before we put in the additional tools it was diff even more difficult because we had no reason to be there and then this I my understanding was we were trying to give the police additional tools to be able to say well you don't have this displayed so you're not in compliance so then they could go at it from that Correct. So, yes. And and as the mayor mentioned, we don't do the the annual compliance checks like we do with tobacco and um alcohol. Um that is that would be given the number of establishments that would be very time consuming. So it may be the case that that this is a way if there is uh some sort of cause for suspicion of what's going on in a particular establishment to be able to go check their whether they're posting their required things or anything like that. Um we it's not mentioned here but it seemed like there was a really disperate range on what pricing some of the cities had as I recall. Do we do you know? Um I unfortunately do not know what that is. I do know that we in the this last round of our fee schedule, we did increase our cost to cover some of the expenses related to the extensive time it takes to do the background checks. Um but I don't know what the the other cities charge. And when you say to cover some of the additional expenses, hopefully you meant to cover all of our additional expenses. So, mayor, council members, uh we did some some calculations this last round and it was a really large jump to cover all of our expenses. So, we're trying to phase that in. So, this this um last round was probably I think it was like 70 70 75% of what we cover. And the thing is with that um it has to be an average because some take significantly more time, some take significantly less time. So we're trying to be very cognizant of not making it overly burdensome because we have a lot of our massage establishments are very well-run and everything and we don't want to burden them. It's it's we just want to make sure that our costs are are covered but also that we are doing our due diligence and it is getting more and more difficult. Council member Grath, when would we look at those fees again uh and compare them to other cities so that we know where we fall? Uh Council Member Grath, we could um we could come back with that. We could reach out to the cities and and get the fees um from them and come back and depending on when they get back to us um probably relatively quickly. I think that would be a good idea. Um I'm not so concerned about the number because I think we are very very fortunate in Roseville to be a center of commerce and so people do come here for many services and this is it would be bound to be this one too. So I'm not really totally surprised at that. But of course we want to have tools in our toolbox to address the problem ones and as you said it's probably 5 to 7% of the whole total that have issues. But how do we find which ones they are and how do we either get them to close down in Roseville so that we don't have to deal with it or or you know prosecute them I guess which would be is difficult as you said. I know those cases are very hard to prove. Um so I would be interested in finding out what the fees are. I right now I don't know that I feel we need to change the cap um unless other council members do. And then I think the other question was uh about the uh amending the ordinance to address schools that are no longer accredited. That that's a possibility, but I think you can't do that to someone who's been in business for 10 years and has a long history client base. Quite often those accredititations are also uh how many hours they've done massage and that's tied to it. So there would have to be some middle ground there. and council member Grath, um, we just are looking for guidance because our ordinance doesn't address what to do with the schools that are no longer accredited. Yeah. Well, and I think if I read some of these requirements in other cities, they do talk about sort of certificates from a national certification board uh or uh an affiliate of the American Massage Therapy Association or some of these other things besides just the accreditation, including a license, you know, school that's licensed by the state or government jurisdiction or whatever. So maybe there's some ways to expand the possibilities uh and and especially if these other cities say that those are still pretty stringent requirements and when we're not loosening things, you know, and and I I wondered at the time about the 600 hours and whether we needed to even include that because if you if you get a certificate or if you get something, you know, why are we saying what are we the experts in how many hours that's supposed to because that's tied almost all of those certificates are dependent on the number of hours there. That's right. Right. So I, you know, we just may want to make sure that whatever we put in there is a sensible criteria that still gets at what we're trying to accomplish, which is, you know, making sure people are actually trained in a proper way. And u, mayor, we do have um one that we are um there's one that's kind of pending regarding the state license and registration because of the way the state the state handles things. They have um schooling from a I believe it's a registered school or a licensed school. I can't remember which which criteria it is, but it's not an accredited school and our ordinance only addresses the accreditation. So, we need we are looking for some guidance um where we can go with that. Sure. Customer um on your list there weren't any cities mentioned that had a cap. Are we aware of cities? There's one. I think I believe there is. Bla. Blaine has ta. Okay. Um, are there do we are we aware of any other cities that have caps or come and gone, you know, that had a cap like we did and then didn't or We are not aware of any. Um, we did not do complete metro wide. We tried to pick some of the cities that are our comparable cities, right? Um, so we didn't ask every city in the metro area. Um, but if if council desires, we can do a larger larger search. Council member Bower, I'm concerned that we're trying to prescribe the solution when I'm not sure sure that we understand the problem. Right? So, we have this we're making assumptions here about why is it more so prevalent in Roseville or in trying to understand, you know, is there a pattern to these establishments that we're having problems with. Understanding these kinds of things will probably help us in deciding going forward what the solution should be. Maybe it is increased fees, maybe it's a change of business hours, maybe it's, you know, there's a litany of things that we can do. But I'd be very curious, you know, when this comes back to understand what patterns that we have, what our understanding of these things are so we can prescribe a solution that works best um for our situation. Um I I can try to address that now. I don't have any hard and fast data because that is part of the issue is that we struggle with proving a lot of things. Um there's a lot of things that we can see that raise red flags, but um as I stated, things can be very sophisticated and we do not have the resources or the ability to kind of dive in as deep as we need to. um to get to the the proof part. Um and I also want to be cautious that it it isn't anything that you know if it rose to the level of we see illegal activity obviously we would get police involved. So I do want to point out that the bulk of what we are seeing is not anything negative or bad. These massage establishments are for the most part good. But with every um new therapist and every new establishment, there is that risk of liability of, you know, things that we we may see that come across. Um but we can see what we can pull together when we if we bring this back. What are the what are the business hours we we decided on? I do not have that handy. Um because I think we limited them. Yeah, they I do believe that is correct. Like 9:00 p.m. or something like that. Yep. Council member strong. So I feel like one of your asks is whether or not we you should study the options and I feel like some of the questions that have been asked say that maybe we want to better understand the options. Um in studying kind of you know who's doing what and maybe why we are so popular and maybe you know trying to find some of those underlying issues. How do you think that would help um the police department, the admin, everybody do this process, you know, complete this process better? Uh, mayor, council member Strong, I think that um if we had a variety of tools available, we could spend more time investigating things, being a little bit more proactive. Um, we could also work with our police department if they have any concerns or things come up. Um I right now it's there's so many that if we try to implement something all the way across the board it is very burdensome. So for example the the um compliance checks that would be very burdensome on police and or their administrative staff or whomever is is doing that. Um, and so just looking at are there options of things that we could do, whether it is a cap or whether it is additional or different requirements for establishments, whether it's putting more specific things into the ordinance similar to like the hotel licensing of you have to have X, Y, and Z. I don't know. I haven't talked to our attorney. I don't know if that's legal. I don't know if we can do that. Um, but are there is there a desire for council to investigate some options on ways we could potentially um help mitigate some of the concerns that we see with potential um issues that are happening at the massage therapy establishments, whether it's um the licensing requirements, the number of hours, or the criteria. um those types of things. Council member Schroeder. Um I actually wanted to go back to what Council Member Bower said. I think we want to define what is the problem we're trying to solve because it and I think that's going to be important to figure out. So are we trying to because obviously we want to be give the police department particularly the tools. So is it because we want to be able to have the police have more tools to be able to work on human trafficking or is it because that we have so many that now this is becoming more of an administration um use of resources. So I guess you know definitely saying this is the problem specifically we see and then what I would like to see is that and these are the solutions we think that would be able to help us deal with these problems because in a way it seems a little big and broad for me to be able to say this or that because again I'm not exactly sure what's going to be helpful and and we don't want to just add more into our regulations if it's not going to be helpful. or not going to help solve the problems that the police or administration is having. So I think maybe defining some of that would be helpful for me. Council Bower, I saw your hand up. Yes. Uh kind of following up with council member um Sher stated because there do you know what we've heard today there are tools that we do have and stuff but it's some it sounds like there might be a resourcing or a funding issue or something else other than just a um ordinance that we've passed that's doing that. I mean, if we're asking for new tools, it's really important um if we do that to actually have the ability to enforce those or to follow up on them. Otherwise, it's not. So, I'd be very curious when you come back to hear, you know, what you're missing to be able to use um the current tools that we have and also to understand exactly what you need with uh new tools to be able to actually utilize them. Well, I think a part of it too is is that, you know, we've got sort of a fixed staff. you know, if we want to do more or if we need more resources, we have to expand the number of people, you know, full-time equivalents doing it. Um, and so I think that needs to be accounted for in terms of our fee structure, too, because and that's the challenge I think we have is that we don't we don't have sort of an infinitely variable scale of people. Yeah. you know, and and we have people that are doing this maybe that could be spending their time on something else, but the question is, you know, what's the best return on the investment in that person as a resource for the city, too. So, I think that's that's part of it. If I mean, you know, if we just increase the fees, I mean, theoretically, we cover our costs better, but do we really know what our costs ought to be or what they are? And then likewise is are we just doing it to sort of dissuade people from applying in the first place either because they they're you know nefarious and don't want to spend the money on it and that's there's some kind of threshold that keeps people the wrong kind of people out of the business so to speak although it may be very lucrative so maybe that isn't a good threshold. Um, on the other hand, you know, you know, is a cap away to solve both of those issues because now we're dealing with finite resources. You know, we only have so many we have to deal with and we're covering our costs appropriately. Um, and then also there's, you know, the cap also sort of limits new people coming into the marketplace. So maybe that is something that that is a good thing to look at as a tool. But I think we want to just understand the parameters around that a little better as to what the issues are as well as what that's that or any other solution may help with. Uh customer just a small note that if we do a cap, we're kind of back to where we are, which is that has to be enforced as well. Well, that's easy. You don't approve more licenses when applications come in, right? But I mean, there's still the enforcement of making sure that there is not uncapped uh establishments. That's always going to be the case even now. Mr. Mr. Treasure, if I could just weigh in, I think it's a fair point to really understand what the problem we're trying to get at. I think I mean tonight there's a couple things. One, there's maybe some technical corrections in the ordinance about the accreditation which was kind of over here. The the cap idea was brought forward really because um even though we made changes and have better tools, we're seeing an increase in the amount of the therapy establishments that we haven't even gotten a handle on what we had before. So there's a little bit of a concern that if we're keep increasing these, we're going to fall further behind. So the cap is maybe a stop gap measure in the sense that we can just have a cap at some level and then we can really start focusing on the resources and the problem. But I think we owe it to the council to talk about the problem and when we come back on that we think a cap is either a part of a transition into making sure those resources are available and or maybe permanently just as we rightsize what we do. But I think it's a fair comment to flesh this out a little little bit more. Um I think if we want to seriously attack the issues here, a well-run massage therapy establishment should not take a tremendous amount of time both on the administrative side for review or the law enforcement side. Uh a poorly run will uh cause a lot of uh extra hours and resources being done. I think we have to be able to understand what the problem is. maybe limit the amount of facilities that are out there so we can get a better handle on it to appropriate the resources, deal with that appropriately and then maybe it's not a permanent thing. So, so I think we do need to come back and talk a little bit more about what the ideal solution would be. They might be out of reach today, but it might be something we could strive for um as we move forward and looking. The law enforcement component is a huge huge one. And even if we had the resources today to regularly go in there, it's still going to be a very difficult proposition to prove um for lots of reasons which I won't get into, but but it's so it's a challenge even if we had dedicated resources. But uh I think in my mind and I think Miss Olsson's mind that we're seeing there's some serious problems. There's a lot of smoke where uh there's probably some fire happening in some of these places that we really need to get a handle on and right now we're seeing our numbers go up and we just feel like falling further and further behind. So that was the idea of the cap, but I think we can bring back further discussion about kind of what we want to uh um sort out here and bring back for further discussion with some ideas. Well, and I think that should lead to hopefully a discussion about what what cap and why if that's the solution. Council member Strong. Well, I think this goes back to our initial cap which um I had worked fairly diligently at um after Chief Schneider came forward and indicated that we're you know and um Deputy Chief Adams mentioning that, you know, we're we're kind of at capacity. these are running quickly and we're things are changing and we don't know and so I mean I think it I think it's reasonable to um request that the staff um consider what options there are and bring back a cap. I don't think the goal would be necessarily to um close a a well-run establishment that's in practice, but for the in my mind it would be to at least maybe allow the staff the time to kind of catch up, make sure everyone's in good working order before you keep adding more to the to the process. And then of course hopefully using kind of best practices and policing and other things to kind of identify and um the problem actors in this situation and kind of you know maybe step back and take a moment to be able to just not just keep issuing more and more and more because you know Wayne can handle 30 and and then I can handle 30 but I don't hire people in 1.0 FTEES. I might, you know, I get to hire somebody in 02 or something and so that's eight hours. So that's, you know, a fraction of that or, you know, so I I don't think we can just say, oh, well, we're going to go to 32 now and not know what that implication is. So I think we really just have to study it so we understand, you know, how many people for each one of these does it take? What's the cost for each one that it takes? and be really honest about now that we're in it and we're been doing it and they continue to just come at us, what does that look like? And I realize there's some folks who are like free market, but also we have to make sure we preserve our staff and make sure that they're able to do their job too. And um unless we want to keep indefinitely adding staff, I think we need to be realistic that we have to stay within our staff budget um to be able to do what we've promised the city we can do. Yeah, it's an allocation of resources issue and and I would definitely say free market certainly doesn't mean unrestrained in in my world. I mean, it means the proper properly regulated. Um, and the question is establishing the proper regulations and understanding the the implications and and the benefits of having those in place. But I do agree as a city we've got, you know, we've done a lot of work to set ourselves some strategic priorities and if we're spending all of our resources on just chasing this issue, we're not really addressing our strategic priorities. So, we do have to weigh those those questions. And and I think it's legitimate for sure because we can't we can't be all things to all people as a as a regulating agency. All right. All right. I I think I have what I need. we will bring something back. It might take a little while just because we have some research to do. Um but yes, we will bring back something with some more details for you. Right. And I think you know definitely the the comparison fees is going to be helpful to understand. Right. Just in case that didn't make it. Yep. Could you send out that last graph and email for us? Thank you. Yep. And maybe add it to the electronic packet for historical purposes. All right. Thank you again, Miss Olsen. Uh and uh Mr. Trean. Uh that then brings us to um city council minutes. We've got the minutes of our April 7th council meeting uh as was brought forward uh for council review and consideration. I think there were some small changes that were made, but if there's no other changes or corrections, a motion to approve those minutes would be in order. So moved. Second. It's been moved by Council Member Grath, seconded by Council Member Sher to approve the minutes of April 7th um as presented. Any discussion on that motion? Hearing none. All those in favor signify by saying I opposed. That passes unanimously. Those minutes are approved. That brings us to the review of the consent agenda. I'll turn it over to Mr. Trean for that. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. My notes. All right. So, uh, consent agenda. Item 10A approves the payments in the amount of 1,469,637.40. Agenda item 10B approves the purchase of a Ford F-150 Lightning Truck as a replacement vehicle for community development and authorizing expenditures for Sandstrom Land Management LLC for their mowing, weeding, and debris cleanup of a variety of street rightaways. Item 10 C receives the city grant applications update. To date, the city has received $659,975 in grant funds. Item 10D adopts a resolution to award a contract to inst technologies to perform sanitary sewer lining services for the city in 2025 in the amount of $890,924.85. Item or yeah, agenda item 10E accepts the appointment of four planning commission members to the city's variance board. They are Pamela Aspes, John Barstead, Allison Jensen as members as full members, and Tammy McGee as the alternate. Item 10F approves the ordering and purchase of a road rescue ultramatic ambulance/rescue vehicle. The vehicle is scheduled to replace an existing medical response unit in 2027 per improvement plan. Due to the long lead time and construction of the vehicle, the fire department is requesting authorizing the ordering and purchase now. Then finally, agenda item 10G approves the city manager's goals for 25 through 2026. And that is the consent agenda. Right. Thank you, Mr. Tre. Is there a motion on the consent agenda? So moved. Second. Moved by council gra. Second by council member Bower. Uh discussion on the motion. No. Hearing none. All those in favor signify by saying I. I opposed. Those items pass or that passes. Those items are approved. Uh that brings us then to uh future agenda review, communication, supports, announcements. Mr. Trean on the future agenda. Yes. In front of you uh is just a listing of some items that will be coming up in our meetings. We do not have a meeting next Monday. Um so we have break here, but May 5th we have a couple more proclamations. Um and uh one of the main items we plan to bring back is uh these strategic plan goals and success indicators that we talked at the last meeting and uh hopefully going to wrap up that point of the discussion. Uh we do have scheduled uh uh May 12th EDA and city council meeting. At this point I would let you know that it does not look like we'll probably have any EDA items. Um so that may be cancelled and we'll look for some items for uh the 12th for this good work session topic. Um, we do know on the 19th, it's not on here. Uh, we'll be uh hopefully having the report back from um BKB about the alternatives for the maintenance operations center. We're doing some additional meetings this week, but that's the date we're targeting. So, I don't have that down there, but that'll be on the 19th. Uh, a couple more proclamations and the county road B assessment hearing. I'm sorry I mentioned that. That might be tonight. Uh, we had a a notification thing that we had to make sure we covered. So, that's coming on the 19th of May. Then you can see the meetings in June, July, and August. All right. Thank you, Mr. Tre. And questions from the council on the future agenda uh or future agenda items from council members. Council member Strong. Thank you. On the city council meeting for May 19th, we had the gun violence awareness month proclamation, which I firmly support, but I do know that last year it referred to items that had happened in the year prior. So, is it possible to have that reviewed and just make sure that it replies to today? I think there was some items after our an officer had been shot that were referenced specifically. So, so bring it bring it up to date, I think. Yes. Yeah, just bring it up to date. Yes. Yeah, I think there's some stats we try to update every single year. Thank you. Yeah, there was just some information about the officer involved shooting that had happened in 23, I believe, that was involved in that. Right. Uh any uh council member initiated items or reports or announcements? May 14th. Keep it on your calendar. NYFS leadership lunchon, right? Lunchtime. It's when they when they hold lunchons. That's right. All right. Any other communications or announcements from council members? Uh this Thursday is the park build at Lexington Park. Much awaited. Um it's really coming along great. Looks wonderful. It'll be done very soon from the looks of it, but I'm not the project manager, so don't ask me. And then um the uh open house for the new recycling center is also on Thursday. Right. 6 to8 I think 6 to something. Mr. Treasure should mention the Roseville business council this Wednesday uh at 8:00 we'll have a representative from state demographers state demographers's office here making the presentation from 89 and that's available to the public. It is and I think there is a sign up through uh St. Paul area chamber andor north suburban chamber to get sort of a headcount twin north. Yep. Um, so if anybody's interested in the demographers report, that's an opportunity. All right, with that, if there's no further communications, announcements or anything for future agendas, the only other item on our agenda this evening is a motion to adjurnn. So move. Second. Moved by Council Member Straw, second by Council Bowerer to adjourn. No discussion. All those in favor signify by saying I. I opposed. That passes unanimously and we're adjourned at 8:32 p.m. Thank you, everyone.