here. Got to be ready for the roll call because I'm the first one. Hereby call to the Roseville City Council meeting for Monday, December 1st, 2025. Mr. C man, would you call the role, please? >> Council member Gra here, council member Bower >> here, council member Stron >> here. Council member Sharter >> here. >> Mayor Ro >> here. Uh and with us at the deis by way of introduction we have our city attorney Rachel Tierney who's on my right at the very end of the deis. We also have our city manager Pat Trean who's on my left at the other end of the day. Uh we'll have other uh staff participating uh in the meeting as the meeting goes on and we'll make introductions at those times. I do want to make folks aware if you're here from the public that we do have uh extra copies of tonight's agenda available for people in the public uh if you wish to refer to that to follow along with the meeting. Those are available on the back table under the big clock by the back door. Uh we also do have a complete set of all the meeting materials in a binder in the same location. Uh but that's one copy that everybody has to share. So hopefully we can all get along in that regard. Um and I also want to remind folks if you have a cell phone to be sure and silence that or otherwise assure that it doesn't disrupt our meeting this evening. With that, we'll ask folks to stand if you're able for the pledge of allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> Right, that brings us to our first uh item on the agenda this evening uh that requires action, which is to approve tonight's agenda. Uh, and we have an agenda as presented this evening. And as always, I'll check with the city manager to see if there are any staff requested changes to the meeting agenda. Uh, Mr. Mayor, there's no changes by staff to the agenda. >> All right. I'll check with council members as well to see if council members uh would like to make a change to tonight's agenda or perhaps remove an item from consent for separate consideration. Does not appear to be the case. Uh and then as always we want to check with members of the public uh on our agenda. We do have at the very end in section 10 what we call our consent agenda. These are a number of items that are fairly administrative and usually fairly routine in nature that we take up uh late in the meeting and all as one motion uh with limited opportunity for public comment or input. Uh but if you happen to be here for one of those items uh tonight, we want to make sure that we take that item up earlier in the meeting uh so you don't have to stay till the very end. So we do want to check with the members of the public who are here this evening. If you happen to be here for an item in section 10 on tonight's agenda uh known as the consent agenda. Uh let us know at this time uh and we'll bring that item forward in the meeting uh and take it up separately so that you'll have a chance to provide your input uh on that item. Uh, is there anyone here this evening for an item in section 10 of tonight's agenda? >> All right. Does not appear to be the case then. Uh, so it looks like we have an intact agenda for our consideration this evening. Is there a motion from the council? >> So moved. >> Second. >> It's moved by council member Stron, second by council member Bower to approve tonight's agenda. Uh, any discussion on that motion? Uh, hearing none. All those in favor signify by saying I. I opposed. >> That passes unanimously. We have our agenda for this evening. Uh that brings us to then our first opportunity for public comment during the meeting this evening. Uh and this is what we do at the beginning of each meeting. Uh is to provide an opportunity for comment on items that are not on this evening's agenda. Uh but may be of interest to people in the community or related to other city business. Uh once again, we will provide an opportunity for public comment on agenda items as they come up. uh and those would be especially in section seven of tonight's agenda uh A through E. Uh but we also at the start of each meeting as I said do provide that opportunity for general public comment on items that are not on tonight's agenda. So I'll check with members of the public once again and see if anybody is here to speak under our general public comment at the beginning of the meeting here. All right. Does not appear to be the case. Uh and in that case then we will proceed with the meeting and uh we don't have any items under uh recognitions and donations. We didn't remove anything from consent. So we can move right into our business items this evening. Uh and u out of interest to the public. Uh our first business item this evening is our budget and tax levy hearing. Um this uh we want to do that early in the meeting once again so that if we've got members of the public who want to participate, we're respectful of your time and take this up early. Um before I recognize our finance director for a short presentation, I do want to note that in the city's publication of how to interact with the city in terms of the budget, we did communicate tonight as well as our uh as well as our meeting on next Monday, August August, [laughter] if only uh December 8th, uh to talk about the budget. And so both of those opportunities will be available to members of the public to speak to the budget and tax levy. Uh what we'll do is we'll open the hearing this evening and then we'll continue the hearing to that meeting to finish uh and hear from people at that time. Uh and also I should note no action is being taken tonight by the council on the budget that is scheduled for next Monday. With that premise or preface uh I will turn it over to our finance director Michelle Petrich for what could be her validtory uh budget presentation to the city of Roseville. Uh Miss Petrich, welcome. >> Good evening. Um, I have a short presentation on the budget. We've tonight we're holding a budget hearing on the [snorts] 26 budget and tax levy and technology still. >> I did that. >> Looks like it's up on the >> Okay, thank you. Um, it's an opportunity for residents to express their views on the budget. and to provide the council with [clears throat] feed feedback. >> The core budget process is we've been working on the budget since March when the annual cash reserve levels were examined. Um to finalize our audit, we established a 26 budget process calendar in March. We discussed legislative impacts and taxbased changes in July. [cough and clears throat] Uh overview of the capital improvement plan was presented in July. The city manager recommended a budget and four different scenarios. In August, you received the Finance Commission recommendation in September and a preliminary budget and tax levy was adopted September 21st. And then utility rates and fee schedules were re reviewed in November. You have also had a couple meetings to discuss franchise fees, which is still one of the options under consideration. So the preliminary 26 city and EDA budget is $81.2 million which includes all the capital funds, all the planned projects for 2026 for capital. This is an increase of $7.1 million. It includes inflationary cost increases. There were decreases made by departments where possible. It includes the capital projects, personnel cost increases and it should say including new positions. Now, so we started with a base budget in September. The council supported and did request the addition of the seven new police positions, 15 new firefighter paramedics, and in September, we had them with a 91 start 9126 start date. The preliminary levy was set at a 12% increase because we had a lot of unknowns in September. We didn't know if we were going to receive federal grants for these new positions and we still didn't know where we were going with franchise fees. In October, we were awarded a cops grant which covers four patrol positions in the police department and we were awarded a federal safer grant for the the firefighter positions. Both of these grants are three years in duration [clears throat] and will impact the budgets going forward. Firefighter par paramedics were also moved from a 91 start to a 415 start which increased expenses by $850,000 but added grant revenues of [clears throat] $638,000. Nonproperty tax revenues pay for 59% of the city's budget. The levy proposed in September was 33,994, a 12% increase, and the EDA levy was set at 264,826, which was a decrease. The combined tax increase is 11.53%. So how does this impact the median value home? We use the median value home as most cities do as a barometer for the impact of the levy. So in 2025, the combined monthly cost was $187.74. Scenario one, which just includes the fire and police positions and no franchise fees [clears throat] increases, would result in a monthly tax levy of $25.84, 84 which is an increase of $1810 per month. This also does include the utility rates. Forgot to mention that scenario two and scenario three could do include franchise fees. Um scenario two provides additional funding to capital project funds. Scenario three doesn't fully provide additional funding for those four equipment funds. Scenario two would be a monthly increase of $191 over 2025. Scenario 3 would be $17.24 24 cent increase per month over the 2025. So what services do your property taxes cover? The biggest portion is police and fire and that has been a the case in the last five budgets. um it is a greater percentage this year obviously because of the addition of the positions and so 56% of our expenditure budget is for public safety that's up about 4%. Parks and recreation is 18% of your tax dollar. Public works and facilities is 15% and general government is 11%. So what impacts your your individual tax statement? Well, property value of your individual property. [clears throat] Ramsey County assesses all property within the county. Valuation notices are sent in Mar mid-Marchch which showed the values that were used for the 2026 tax levy allocation. And a lot of people do miss this because it actually comes with the tax bill for the current year. In November, proposed property tax statements were mailed out using this valuation from March and using preliminary levies that were set in September for the county, city, and school districts and other special taxing districts. Concerns or questions about valuations can be directed to the assessor's office and generally appears appeals should occur in April of the year prior to the payable year, but it never hurts to contact the assessor to find out what impacted your individual house value. Some other factors that affect taxes on a property. Not all properties increase by the same ratio. The average house house [clears throat] residential housing property increased 3.03%. We do have several properties that increase by more than that percentage and that is factoring in that that individual homeowner is seeing a greater than 12% increase on the city tax. And once you work through um the property value changes that is affecting if your property increase by greater than the 3%. Um that is kind of skewing the percentages. As the property increase in increases in value, the market value exclusion decreases and is phased out when a property reaches $525,000. And the market value exclusion was actually increased last year for 2025 taxes um from 72,000 to 96,000. Um but as the property value increases the po this reduces the amount of value that the tax actually goes on. Um other market value changes to properties within the tax base can impact how taxes are allocated. So we submit a tax levy to the county. They aortion it across all properties within the city and in the case of school districts, they aortion it on the school district boundaries. So for those folks from Shore View, yes, you are in Roseville school district. Um, which for some people that was new information. Um and then the county aortions across the whole county. And uh so those are some of the other factors that impact your individual tax results. So state of Minnesota has a property tax rebate program typically based on household income. Um but there are some except exceptions. Um 2023 law changed and dropped the property tax increase from 12% to 6%. So homeowners do qualify for the special refund. So if your taxes increased greater than total taxes, not just the city taxes, you would qualify for a refund. Other tax programs um that pro can provide some relief um are for senior citizens, disabled veterans, and permanently and totally disabled citizens. And for more information, you can um go to Minnesota Department of Revenues website and the Ramsey County Property Tax website. So, utility rates, um, we did discuss these last month. We are utilizing the updated utility rate study that was done in 2024. We are proposing a 2% increase for sanitary sewer, 5 12% increase for water, and a 0% increase for storm drainage. And that co that covers our increased costs in the case of water um our costs from St. Paul regional water increased and in the case of the sanitary sewer the metropolitan council costs also increased. Recycling reflects a full year under the new contract rate and we are proposing a 3% increase to cover the increased costs. So, a brief examination of how the utility rates impact a single family home um across water, sewer, storm, and recycling. Per quarter, we are proposing a $721 increase, which is a 3.44% increase overall. And that translates into $2.40 40 per month or annualized $28.83 for utility increases. And that's assuming a residential home utilizes 12,000 gallons and sewer consumption of 11,000 gallons. So again, here are the various scenarios that we still have. Scenario one, no franchise fees, but it includes police and fire position requests and offsetting grants. Scenario two includes franchise fees and provides additional funding for the for some capital improvement funds, specifically vehicle equipment funds. Scenario three includes franchise fees but does not provide additional funding for those capital project funds. With that, are there any questions? >> All right. Thank you, Miss Petri. Are there questions from the council for staff on the budget and tax levy information presented this evening? And we may not have questions because we've seen it before a few times over the course of this process as Miss Petri outlined uh as we got to this point this evening. There aren't any questions from uh the council. will go ahead and uh provide an opportunity for members of the public to speak uh as to the proposed uh 2026 uh city budget uh property tax uh and fees uh all of which uh and for that matter whether we should impose the franchise fees uh as part of our scenarios that were outlined. Uh we'd be happy to hear from members of the public about that. Um and just to provide a little bit of uh information about our process for public hearings. Uh we do provide for uh anybody uh who wishes to speak. Uh just feel free to come up and have a seat in front of one of the microphones. Uh no need to adjust the microphone's position in front of you. Uh the sound booth will take care of making sure that you can be heard. We would just ask that you uh direct your comments or questions to the city council. Uh we will take your comments under advisement and uh once everybody has had a chance to speak, if we can answer the questions that came up, we'll make sure and provide answers for those. Uh if the questions are in the nature of sort of why is the council doing this or that um we may have to defer those to our discussion about our actual decision that we make as the council uh because I don't know that the council has a unified voice yet uh until we get to the point of taking a vote on the final budget uh next week. And so uh that uh that is part of that process. Um when you do come up to speak, we just ask that you begin your comments with your name, introduce yourself like you would to somebody you're just meeting. Uh, also indicate uh your address or the street you live on, whichever you prefer uh for the record. Uh, and then if you do have a name that is not uh one that people commonly know how to spell, once you're done with your comments, you can just write your name on the clipboard uh that's up on the table there. Uh, and that way we'll have that spelling for the record as well. Uh we do do uh minutes of all of our council meetings and so the names of people who speak do appear and we want to make sure we don't uh uh um misspell your name. Uh the other thing is there's a threeminut uh time limit per speaker. That's a rule of the city council applies to council meetings as well as all of our advisory commission meetings for public comment. And I try to enforce that, as I say, gently but generously. Uh so that if you get to a point where you're over time and you're uh looking like you need to wrap up, I will give you a gentle reminder to finish your your final thought. Uh and with that, uh hopefully that doesn't intimidate too many people. Uh we try to be really nice here, so we want to encourage folks to come up and speak. Uh we're opening up the public hearing on the 2026 uh budget, tax levy, and utility fees, and we look forward to hearing from members of the public. Is there anyone from the public who wishes to speak as to the 2026 budget tax levy or utility fees? All right, feel free to come on up. Have a seat. I forgot to say have a seat and be comfortable. Make yourself comfortable in front of the microphone before you begin your remarks. >> Hello and welcome. >> Hello. I'm Dwenda Jerigan and my address is 2553 Fisk Street, Roseville. Um, and I it's not I don't want to speak to the detail here because I haven't been part of the whole process, but I do know that when we received our tax statement, um, we were really surprised. Uh we had a 900 uh an estimated predicted $962 increase. Um we we have just we have a nice home, but it's not a palace, you know. Uh so we were really surprised and that is represents a 16.02% increase. Um so that seemed like a lot to us and I just wanted to share that. >> Well, we thank you for providing that feedback. >> I should write my name. >> All right. Is there anyone else from the public who wishes to speak? And I'll just note that since we do have the two microphones, [clears throat] feel free to come on up and have a seat at the second microphone if you want to speak. Uh, and that will help keep the process moving. Right. If there's nobody else who wishes to speak, this will be your last call. Anyone from the public who wishes to speak to the 2026 budget and tax levy? Right. With that, we'll close the public hearing or excuse me, we'll continue the public hearing to uh the 8th, our meeting next Monday. So, we'll continue that hearing uh and one more opportunity for members of the public to speak. We thank everybody for their participation in the process and uh we look forward to uh having a final budget decision made at the uh at some point in our meeting next week. Mr. Treachen. >> Yes. Uh Mr. Mayor, uh thank you. I just have a couple just quick items here. Um and the first one, my apologies. is I meant to include something in the case about new tracks. If you remember, they [clears throat] came to us in August and asked for some funding for [snorts] our circulator bus service and uh obviously no decisions here tonight. Uh but want to bring that up as a consideration if the council so um sees it. They're asking for $7,000 to help their circular [snorts] bus service which has been in existence for six months. uh they rely on rider donation sponsorship and some grant dollars, but they do need some additional [snorts] funding and they've requested that. So, I was going to bring that forward for your consideration uh potentially next [snorts] um [clears throat] um uh Monday, I guess it would be. And if there's any information you would want me to bring forward on that, I wanted to bring that to your [snorts] attention. And then more generally, if there's anything you want us to bring back, we'll uh be prepared to have resolutions covering all three scenarios, but if there's anything else you want us to bring back in specific, I'm just asking uh so we can prepare that for you. Right. >> And uh in that uh situation, would you uh propose to identify a funding source for if we chose to provide that funding? >> Uh yes, I I could. I mean, it [snorts] boil down be tax levy or or our general fund reserve, >> right? as long as it doesn't put our tax levy over the 12% that we've already >> correct >> certified to the county. >> Yes. Correct. >> Right. Thank you, Mr. Trean. Uh, Council Member Strong, >> um, would it [snorts] be possible to do some type of comparison between the new tracks um, services provided and that which we heard about last week with the Metro Micro [snorts] um, given that there was some overlap in the services and the other part being already covered for [snorts] taxes. If that if you could compare them, that would be very helpful. And I did want to note uh just for members of the public uh certainly uh as was noted by Miss Petri uh there are several components that make up uh the change in your property tax bill for next year. Uh probably the first one of those is how your property value itself has changed as as assessed by the county. And sometimes uh the change uh that you see on your bill can be significantly impacted. if you did see uh and that's usually up in the upper right corner they talk about your value for 2025 and your value for 2026 and sometimes there's a fairly notable increase there. Uh hopefully we'd all love it to be a decrease but uh that's not seem doesn't seem to be the reality of the real estate marketplace uh [snorts] these days in Roseville. So that can be a contributing factor but as Miss Petri noted uh if your value increases more than sort of the average value that could contribute to your tax going up at a higher rate as well. The other thing I just wanted to note is that the city portion of the tax is the only part that we control this evening. And I would certainly encourage members of the public uh who are concerned about their taxes as to what they're being built by the county or what they're being taxed by the county uh or the school district that those entities are doing hearings very much like this. Uh I believe I don't know that any have occurred yet, but uh because they had to be, you know, late late late in November, [snorts] but check out that information should also be on your tax statement as to where those hearings and when those hearings are. Uh and then just uh finally as well um as to um the I'm not I've already lost my train of thought, so I apologize that that important information that I was about to give you is just gone to me. So, with [snorts] that, I guess we'll just have to maybe I'll think of it by next week. Um, Council Member Sher. >> Yeah. The the only thing I did want to make sure about the um the increase that's on the statements that people receive, that's the not to exceed about. So, there is a possibility that the city could u have a less than than than what we put in there. So, I believe it was 12%. >> Correct. And so so there is a possibility not just us that the other entities could go less than that but that is the maximum amount that you would see on your statement. So there is a possibility it could go down. I just wanted to make sure that people understood it was not to exceed amount. >> No thank you. That's an important part of the process to understand for folks. And the other piece of it is, and it was kind of mentioned in the presentation, is that we are looking at um uh changing some of our funding uh for some of our uh um expenditures at the city from the property taxes to what's known as a utility franchise fee. Utility franchise fee is a fee that would be would appear on your uh Excel Energy statement. Uh and what's being proposed for residential properties, single family residential properties, is uh $3 a month for gas and $3 a month for electric. Um that would uh basically offset a comparable increase to the property tax. Uh but there are some things that the city would do with that because it actually raises more money than the equivalent property tax. And so that's part of those scenarios was looking at well how much um capital funding which were there are some areas of our capital funding that that are behind in being able to be adequately funded. This is things like primarily with the franchise fees would be roads, sidewalks, uh parking lots and those sorts of things that are in the in the right of way that the streets are in uh because that's where the XL Energy does their utilities primarily is in rights of way like that. And so state law does allow us to do a franchise fee uh on that basis and that uh something we're looking at as to whether that's a thing to do um to uh help fund some of those capital needs. And so that's a part of those those scenarios and definitely there's more information in the packet online related to this meeting or under the budget topic at the city's website that can be helpful on that. Uh council members as well as Mr. Mr. Trean or Miss Miss Petri would be happy to try to help answer questions about that as well. Uh so I just wanted to make sure that that was part of what uh we talked about uh this evening uh uh for information to the public. Uh Council Member Strong, >> um quick search found that the county truth and taxation hearing is on Thursday, December 11th at 6 p.m. The ISD 623 is on December 12th. Um I wasn't able to quickly find the Monsu schools. Um, but if you live in that area, I'm sure they today is the very earliest it could be and likely it looked like there may have been a meeting held in it with a continuation already. >> Thank you. Is there anything else from the council on budget tax levy and fees? Either requested information for next week uh or uh information to impart to the public. >> All right. Well, once again, thank you for everybody for participating in the process up to this point and we look forward to the feedback we'll get at our uh meeting on next Monday. Uh and stay tuned for that final decision which we will have to make at that meeting uh because we don't have any more meetings scheduled this year and we have to be done with this decision making by December 31st. So once again uh thank you everyone. We'll go ahead and move on then to our next item on the agenda uh which is to take an opportunity to hold a public hearing uh to certify certain delinquent miscellaneous charges that properties in the city have incurred over the course of primarily the last quarter I would guess uh to their property taxes for collection. These are unpaid uh amounts. Uh, and we've got our finance director, Michelle Petri, back with us for what could be her validtory uh, certification hearing for [laughter] miscellaneous charges going to the tax uh, bills. >> Well, I I might have to come up with something for the January [laughter] meeting. >> U, this is actually for the whole year. >> Okay. Um and when in discussion with the city attorney, um she recommended that we do that we hold this as a public hearing versus in prior years we would just certify >> um some of these items and Ramsey County does require that we submit a resolution. So there are two different types of um delinquencies here. Um and they they were attached. The first one is property abatements or nuisance calls. And most of these items come to the council before we even take action on these properties. And most of the time this is delinquent properties, not mowing, um, snow removal, car removal. Um, and since the packet went out last week, we actually had two properties come in today and pay them off. So the Victoria Street which is the first item and the Eldridge Avenue which is the bottom item are going to be taken off the list. So for property abatements um the new total would be 8,16051 and then the other um unpaid new calls are police false alarms um and mainly police false alarms. Um, all of these properties were notified that they were delinquent. They had an opportunity to pay up until today. And so for the police false alarms, um, we're certifying $22,567 61. >> All right. Thank you, Miss Petri. And once again, this is a public hearing. Uh so this is an opportunity for members of the public uh to uh weigh in on these uh uh this request to certify these items uh to the uh property taxes. They're once again unpaid. And I my my uh the reason I misspoke earlier uh is that uh we do this quarterly for certain types of unpaid bills, but these are the the specifically the the community development nuisance abatements uh and the false alarm uh which we do on an annual basis. And so that's the difference this evening as compared to what we've done over the course of the year and several years now. Um so with that once again if there's anyone from the public who wishes to speak to this item uh either perhaps one of the properties involved or a member of the public who's interested in the matter uh and either has a question or comment to the council. Uh this would be the opportunity we'll open the public hearing. Is there anyone from the public who wishes to speak at this hearing this evening? Right. Does not appear to be the case. We'll go ahead and close the public hearing then uh and uh move to council consideration of uh the certification of these unpaid amounts. Um and noting that on the community development list uh two items, the first and last properties have been removed and the new total is $8,160.51. Um is there a motion from the council? >> So moved. Second. >> All right. It's been moved by council member Stron, seconded by council member Schroeder to uh certify those amounts uh to the property tax as outlined uh by adopting the resolution in the packet uh as the attachment uh at the end. Discussion on that motion is the maker of the motion. Council member Strong, >> thank you to the staff. This takes a lot of staff time to get to this point. um and the folks have had a lot of time and um opportunities and so thank you for that continued um determination to get them done and um just a reminder to to the property owners to stay on top of these things. >> As the second council member Schroeder, any other comments? All right, we've got the motion before us once again to adopt the resolution certifying those delinquent uh uh charges to the county for collection with the property taxes. Uh if there's no further discussion, all those in favor of that motion signify by saying I I opposed. That passes unanimously and that resolution is adopted. Those certifications are approved. Uh that brings us I believe to our third item uh which our finance director Michelle Petri will uh participate in. Uh and that is the and maybe not >> maybe the chair is going to >> All right. Maybe the Okay. Uh she's connected with it though. So we we'll leave it at that. Uh we uh have a request from our finance commission uh to provide some guidance on uh a couple of matters that have been brought before them for cons possible consideration uh as well as I believe on their work plan more generally. We do have our finance commission chair Bruce Bester with us this evening uh to bring this before the council and I didn't realize uh that it wasn't going to be Miss Petri. So I apologize to you for that stealing attempting to hand her your thunder. So [laughter] with that I'll recognize our chair. >> She can have as much as she wants. All right. Uh, >> welcome. >> Greetings, mayor, council members. Uh, we are here to, uh, continue the discussion that happened at the finance commission meeting on November 14th. Uh, based on a, a letter email that was received by us and presented to us uh, at our meeting. Uh, the letter was dated on November 12th and it's in your packet. And I've got to tell you that there are a number of places where I I strongly disagree with what was said. And I'll give you just a couple of examples so that uh you have a sense. I'm not going to make it lengthy, but a sense of where we disagree with some of the statements that were made, but you're going to find at the end in the spirit of good financial and resource management and in the spirit of acting as the eyes and ears for the city council and the citizens and businesses. Uh we want to take on this sort of uh assignment. [snorts] If if you say that you're that that you feel it's it should be taken on. Um so examples of places where we disagree. Uh statement was made that uh the analysis that the financial analysis was completely devoid of any kind of financial analysis. Well, we disagreed immediately at at that meeting uh that that was not the case. We had uh discussed the the CIP. we had to guess the budget for these programs uh in just the last couple of months before. So, so we had a pretty decent handle on it. Second item, uh the pathway program has consumed $250 million over the past 35 years and that was compared to the cost of what it would take to uh host the uh NFL professional football team. Uh Michelle and I, stop me if you disagree. Uh we're estimating that 250 is way over the 9 million that she and I thought might be closer to reality. Uh I'll just stop at those at those two. There are other things that we disagree with and I'll be glad to share those later. it. But anyway, we're here to offer to take a deeper dive into this program, but it only represents 4/10en of 1% of the entire entire budget of the city. Uh, and so the first question that ran through our minds was, do we really want to look at and and dive in do a deep dive on a program that small? Uh, would we would you uh prefer something other than that be looked at? I continued to think about it and I thought, you know, if we did decide to take a deep dive on any budget, maybe it would make sense to go real small where we really could roll up our sleeves and and and see if we might learn anything. So, I'm here to offer uh to take on this project, a further review of the pathways project, or if you prefer something that's more important, be glad to take that on. uh we'd be certainly not looking for an answer necessarily tonight, but as early as we could in the year would be nice so that we can get it into our work plan and uh do a necessary study. So I'll pause there and and open for questions, comments. >> Right. Thank you, uh chair master. Uh thoughts from the council in terms of uh taking that look at uh the the finances associated with the program. Uh and just to note I think both of the plans that were referenced with one is the bike plan which is fairly recently uh put together uh and then also the pathway master plan which has a longer history. Um you know my sense of those as a decision maker has always been that that's sort of a prioritization system and we don't really have funding set aside for most of those projects ahead of time. It's usually something that happens as part of other projects that we're doing as a city. Uh so I've never really, you know, personally thought, oh my gosh, this the financial aspect of that is missing from those those plans. Uh but that's just my thought uh thoughts from the council and that in regards to direction to the commission. Uh, Council Member McGrath, >> I would uh if we're going to do any direction to the finance commission, I would definitely want to think of it in a broader term than just specifically narrowing into this tonight. As you said, it I think it would be a good idea for us to address some other things or or some other projects perhaps, but I think it needs a very thorough discussion. This is a very small amount of the budget. the pathways and the bikeways are used by a lot of people and um I I would just want to do that more carefully than just making a decision on that tonight. >> Other thoughts? Uh Council Member Strong, >> I have a couple different directions. Uh today we received notice from Bob Beersside who um long history in parks um and much of his comments involve um really how this impacts the parks um system and so it does feel while it's important as part of the finance department. Um as noted many of these items do come forward with a um with maybe a project where we can be in tandem with someone else. we combine. We don't often know what the project will be until it's before us and then we have to make a decision but we do have the prioritization um and sometimes we disagree on how that prioritization should be established but um I haven't felt this is lacking but what I feel more concerned about is this um this uh person in the community who is sidestepped the council I feel like we ask you to provide um the analysis that are helpful to us as council members And [clears throat] so I feel like um this person is well known to our organization and if they felt like there was something that they needed to ask or they wanted to ask that they should have started with us feels a little bit like asking mom instead of asking dad and maybe you'll get a different answer. And so I don't want to put you all in an uncomfortable situation. I did confer with the attorney who indicated that as long as you have public comment there is an opportunity for people to provide items. So, we couldn't say that they're not allowed, but I do think that I feel most comfortable having the direction for your work plan and other things approved by us. And I think that if we were going to consider such a thing, the council should thoroughly discuss that plan and what value that would bring. Um, you are volunteers, you have many of you are retired, but not everyone. And I would want that to be a valuable piece. And I think as far as the budget is concerned, um obviously we're a little late for a 26 budget right now. We have one more meeting just to kind of wrap up loose ends. And so I'm just really uncomfortable with someone feeling like maybe they can jump the system to get something they wanted by going to a different group. And I don't want you to feel um like you have to do something because the person can sometimes have um a perceived amount of clout that um impacts your ability to do something. I guess I would really want us to from at this table to make a decision and direct you to do work and and have a good reason for it before we would ask you to do that. >> Great advice. Thank you. >> Other uh feedback? Uh Council Member Schroeder. >> Um yes, thank you for being here by the way. Appreciate all the work that you and your commission do. You know, the the first question I I always like to ask is what value do we get out of doing something? So if you're going to be uh looking at this, what is it that we would end up getting that would is there a decision to be made? Would we change something? You know what it so it comes down to the bang for the buck? So, if you're going to spend the time on something, I guess I'd want to know um you know, what's the value and and um commission or council member Strong's right that you know, obviously we want to help direct your um work plan and and that and and in this one and I think it's valid to bring it forward and ask us if this is something interesting to look at. And I would say at least at this point um I'm I'm not sure what what question we're trying to answer by taking a look at it. So that that's where I came came back on that one. Now for me obviously um you know the work you do I would think spending as much time as possible on the CIP um for me I think would be really important. uh making sure that's I know that's a long-term piece but we there's shortterm long-term and there's funding and that piece is something that we wanted to consider um um as we're moving forward um the different costs the inflation and some of these other pieces is there a different or better way that we could be uh looking at that so I I would think that for me that would be a really valuable area to spend time looking at because I think that would help us um figure out where we need to go um when it comes to budgets and capitals and things like that. So I mean in and in this case um I you know I you know when he mentioned things like the um leaf center I mean obviously we need to know you know costs around some of that but that kind of thing I think staff has got that figured out so I'm not sure the actual detail of that is something you would need to look at but obviously uh your input on the whole project when that comes forward next year too but again that's just my opinion on the that the CIP I think is is where we would like to see some of of your effort. >> Excellent advice. Again, thank you so much. I I don't and to attempt to give a little bit of an answer to your question. I'm not aware of what the expected outcome was supposed to be. Uh it was more a criticism of of the fact that we didn't have enough financial information about the programs, which I disagree with. >> Right. Other feedback. uh customer about >> I would second the you know investigation into the CIP especially with our use now you know possible use of franchise fees um you know and what that plays into how we use our CIP um I brought up earlier you know looking at 20 years may not be the best thing especially if we don't take into account certain things um also you know applying certain things that will come onto the tax role such as when tiff districts come off um one of the questions that you had in in the packet here also was about your work plan going forward for the year and I just want to bring up uh someone that occupied the seat prior to me spend a lot of time trying to uh empower commissions to bring forward commissioner initiated items. So while we you are asking you know for the council to direct what you're doing I also want to make sure and make it clear that we're also looking for the commissions to direct what we should be looking at as well. So if your commission decides along with any other commission decides to investigate something you are very much empowered to to do that and I think uh you know you hear different things see different things here people we put on commissions are appointed for reasons for their you know either passion or expertise in those areas and so it's always beneficial for us. So, um I do encourage you not just to look at um you know what we're tasking you with to look at which are very important things but also things that you feel that are important should be looked at um encourage your commission to do that. >> Thank you. >> Um and any other feedback council >> I just add to that uh and anytime you're going to do that I think it's a good idea just to run it by the council. it's easy to come to us and get on the schedule and I know we do that once at least once a year with you and that's much appreciated but um anytime you need advice if if something comes up in the in your commission bring >> and I and I was just going to note that that is part of our commission code is actually when commissions have things that they're initiating that it makes sense to do a check-in with the council uh just to make sure that that's that's uh that we validate that that is something to put on the on the work plan. Um I did have a couple of thing I'll echo the thoughts about the the capital improvement plan or CIP review. Um I think one of the things that um and I may have mentioned this in our joint meeting. Um and I can't remember how the rest of the council felt about it but that's okay. Um the [laughter] the the thought was that that you know we we talk about how difficult it is to predict costs going forward because nobody knows what inflation is going to be. I think one of the things that that I will say as one of sort of the architects of the most recent up you know improvements to the program and I'm talking recent as in 2010 2011 um that we didn't really have a good way to build in um inflation on the on the setting aside money side you know because you can you can certainly have a better understanding of what very recent inflation was as to how you might want to adjust the funding going forward on the funding side of our capital and we haven't really done a good job of that. So that was something I believe I brought up in that discussion and still feel is an important aspect of capital improvement planning and funding to look at as as a way to maybe regularize how we uh keep u keep adjusting what we're setting aside so that we don't keep getting behind all the time uh because we know inflation is going to go up. We just don't know what it's going to be. But we certainly want to put ourselves in a position where we're attempting to account for that in our funding. uh and whether that's looking at some kind of you know um uh federal um you know index that's out there as to capital equipment costs or something like that. I'm not sure for governments or something. Uh but I'd be curious to know if there's a way to even kind of have some sort of policy around that. The other thing I wanted to note too is uh with the specific to the pathways there's so many different funding sources that that often are used and sometimes it's combinations of funding sources. So the challenge I think would be if we were trying to do an analysis of those of the cost of the projects is well it's the cost to whom because it you know some of the projects are done as part of city projects some of the projects are done as part of county projects some of the projects get federal grants for them or something like that safe routes to schools those sorts of things. So I I think that analysis just becomes very challenging because yes I believe the projects will cost a lot of money. Um the challenge is is that um you know until we do the projects we don't know how they're being paid for necessarily and if it's not necessarily city of Roseville funds you know I kind of agree what's the impact of doing that analysis if we don't really know where the dollars are going to be coming from. But one thing we do probably have a better way to get a handle of is sort of what those long-term you know maintenance type costs might be because we do have to clear the snow and we do have to do the replacement and repairs. And so that may be something that could be worth taking a look at and seeing if it's makes sense to work some of that into our capital improvement program planning. Uh that might be a discussion to have. Um and so um and you know obviously there's an operational budget aspect to snow removal and things like that. That's not so much capital. But as to that particular request from that resident um that would be about the only thing that I might see and I once again I don't know how the council feels about that. Uh that was the only thing that came to mind. And then just finally from my perspective, I think um um back to the the capital improvement well no actually this is more broadly in the budget we've been we make in the last several years because of things like temporary COVID funding from the federal government or grants to help fund the first portion of years of new positions. We sort of have built in some future costs. Um, and I would be curious to hear from, and once again, this hasn't been vetted with the rest of the council, um, hear from the commission as to how in our process should we sort of account for those and document those and track those as we're going from year to year so that when we maybe we start the next year's budget process, one of our one of our benchmarks we get is, okay, you know, we uh, we have these several things that we've planned for in prior years that are going to come online this year or this next budget here and so that's kind of that adjusts the baseline and how does that work into our process and so I'd be curious to hear from commission you know as to recommendations about how to do that and how to account for that so and once again the rest of the council could say that's the dumbest idea and then that's as far as it goes but uh but that's I wanted to bring it up since we have the opportunity to talk about it so I will uh I will stand for rebuttal uh council members >> not in rebuttal but I just want to make sure you know that we appreciate the expertise that you and your colleagues spring and so um I could see maybe more than anything kind of offense like how dare they say that we didn't do anything and I I do want to make sure we let you and your fellow commissioners know and as a few of you have been on this commission before. It's kind of a thankless job at times, but um we appreciate your input and when you come and you spend the time and thank you for being here, but just wanted you to know that sometimes claims are made that maybe don't represent uh the feelings of a lot of people. So, I do want to make sure you you accept our appreciation for what you do bring to us. >> Thank you, sir. >> Council member GR >> and I totally agree with that because I think all of us have been on commissions, we know how much work it is. The one thing I would say is there are lots of ideas we can come up with up here, but you have to determine what you can do in a year or what, however you want to do your work plan. This is not a full-time job and we do not expect you to work 80 hours a week on that finance commission. [laughter] So, if it's getting to, you know, a level that it's it's that much, just don't feel don't hesitate to say we're going to focus on this this year. This is our work plan. >> Any other feedback? I hope you found that helpful and oh Mr. Just so we're clear leaving the room and correct me, I'm not hearing uh direction for the finance commission to directly look at pathways and the bike plan, but more broadly the CIP and um all the inputs into that which obviously covers some of the pathways and bike facilities more generally speaking about how it's designed, how we're planning for how we account for inflation, >> all those types of things. is that I just want to make sure staff and finance commission is clear leaving the room here. >> Well, the only thing I'd add is what the mayor said that possibility if there was some maintenance or you know other costs associated with it that needs to somehow be figured out. I mean that that could be part of it. But yeah, I think that was the only piece that you would right. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. >> I would put that on the lower end of the priority. I would say the CIP review would be the highest in my opinion. >> For sure. >> Yeah. >> Thank you for that clarity. >> All right. >> Do do we want to also just clarify that if someone We appreciate you being our eyes and ears, but if someone does bring the something like this to you, um >> No, this is exactly the right process. >> No, that they come to us and we talk to the council. Right. Exactly. >> That you don't have to take direction from any other person to tell you how to do your job. >> That's perfect advice. Thank you so much. >> All righty. Thanks for being here again. >> Thank you. >> Y >> All right. Um I was trying to find a way to involve uh finance director Petri in this [laughter] >> but I completely failed. So I apologize to her. Uh the next item on our agenda is to uh take a look at uh adopting amendments to the ordinance as it relates to um the dangerous animal uh uh ordinance we have and specifically uh the hearing officer uh as it relates to that. Uh and we have and I I don't want to uh get your rank wrong with Lieutenant >> Commander. [clears throat] Commander. >> All right. See, I knew I would do that. I can't keep up with your success in the department. That's [laughter] >> a title change. >> Right. It was officer Steinberg when when we did our ride along. That is right. About a century ago. >> That is right. I I do remember that. So I couldn't make it through a night again. So >> So you decided to go for the higher position. >> Yes, there we are. >> Well, good. Thank you for being here and uh uh for bringing this item uh before the council this evening. >> Yeah. Thank you, mayor and members of the council. Um, I'm here tonight to uh request council action for consideration of adopting an ordinance amending uh section 501.15 of our city code to clarify dangerous animal hearing officer requirements. Um, I'll provide a little bit of background here on how we got to this and where we're at. As Pat is very familiar, >> um, as you guys are aware, it's the responsibility of the Roseell Police Department to investigate all animal bites that are reported to the police department. Um, if these investigations determine the status of an animal as dangerous or potentially dangerous, sanctions may be imposed. Uh, the determination of whether an animal is dangerous or potentially dangerous is made by the police chief in consultation with our city attorney. Um, as part of the process, the owner of the animal that is determined to be dangerous or potentially dangerous may request a hearing concerning the declaration within 14 days of notice. Uh the hearing on the appeal of a dangerous or potentially dangerous animal shall be before a hearing officer. That leads me here today. Um under the current ordinance, the hearing officer uh is defined as a the animal society's director of human investigations or their design, which our design has previously been our city manager um up until the last several years through the animal society. Just to provide a little bit of background, uh earlier this year in September, we were notified by the Animal Humane Society that at the end of this year, they would be discontinuing their inbound housing program and would no longer provide investigative services such as the hearing officer. Um with that too, we hadn't been utilizing them for hearing officer or as our hearing officer. We've been using our design Pat um their city manager. uh within the last I'd say probably had three four >> several several in the last year. >> Um and with the change over from the animal society to uh the future companion animal care center that we're going to be utilizing starting in January, we thought now is the time to kind of look at what is our who we designate as our hearing officer. Um and best practice, we found that it would be best to go with an outside source for that hearing officer. Um and so in meeting with the city attorney, the staff is requesting a hearing officer uh the definition be redefined as an impartial employee appointed by the city or an impartial person retained by the city to conduct the hearing under this chapter. Um and again just a best practice we found is is to go that route. Uh what this will do is allow our city to uh assure a fair and transparent and impartial process and and that's where we're at today. So, a minor amendment change but an important amendment change. Um, as we've seen since CO postco, we've had a number of um animal bites within the city and in which the determination was made uh potentially dangerous or dangerous animal in the hearing that has come with that those uh designations. So, that's about what I have here [clears throat] this evening. So, nothing nothing too crazy. >> All right. Yeah. as compared to the original adoption of the ordinance. This is this is fairly straightforward thing. >> Yes. >> Um questions from the council for staff uh or the attorney, I guess, on on this particular uh proposed change. >> Is there some way it could be the mayor's job to do? >> I uh would suggest that you wouldn't want the mayor to be [laughter] >> the attorney. He could be the weed guy and dogs. Okay, [laughter] I see where you do know that I designate an a lieutenant on the inspect. >> I did not know that part. I withdraw my [clears throat] >> Okay. [laughter] >> So, basically, we're changing from designating very specific entity to just a hearing officer in the ordinance and then we then contract with somebody to do that. >> That is correct. And later this evening on the consent agenda is who we're looking to go with. >> Got it. All right. If there aren't any questions from the council, I would open it up for members of the public. If there's anyone from the public who wishes to speak to this proposed change this evening, this dramatic uh change to our program. [laughter] Doesn't appear to be the case. We don't have Yes, we don't have a crowded room for this item. >> Um, Council Member Sharter. >> Nope. I was actually I was, you know, waiting so I could move to adopt. >> I think we're there. >> All right, let's do it. I move to adopt. >> Second. It's been moved by council member Shartter, second by council member Grath to adopt the ordinance amending our hearing officer uh as it relates to uh the dangerous animal hearing. Uh as outlined and presented discussion on the motion as the maker of the motion, Council Member Scher. >> It's very straightforward. >> It is all right. Uh second of the motion. >> Yeah, it's a really really good idea. I did do a little research just because I I was curious about it and I thought this is the way to go. It makes total sense. >> All right. any other discussion and I would concur that with the comments that have been made and I was surprised that we were so specific in our designation in our ordinance because usually we try not to be so specific but >> this was years ago so who knows what was going on then. Uh with that we've got the motion before us to adopt that ordinance amendment. All those in favor signify by saying I opposed. That passes unanimously. I believe we have an ordinance summary resolution as well. >> Motion to approve the summary. that. >> All right. Yep. It's moved by Council Member Straw. I believe it was seconded by Council Member Grath to approve the resolution authorizing the publication of a summary. This once again by state law does require supermajority vote, which in the case of a five member council is a four-fifths vote. Uh all those in favor of uh the resolution uh approving the publication of a summary signify by saying I. >> I opposed. That passes unanimously meeting the supermajority requirement. Thank you, Commander Steinber. >> Thank you for making my first RCA so easy. [laughter] Well, it's all about the choosing >> there. Yeah, that's great. >> All right, with that then we come to our last business item this evening, item 7E, uh, which is to consider appointing a council member to the civic campus final design stakeholder group, which I was trying to come up with what the acronym for that is. [laughter] I'm just going to set it aside. Uh, Miss Mr. Trean, city manager Trean, uh, this is your item to bring forward before the council. >> Yes. Uh, thank you, uh, Mr. Mayor and members of the council. As noted, uh we are uh looking to have the city council appoint uh a member to serve on the civic campus final design stakeholder group. This uh group will be meeting to discuss the final design of our overall city campus um project which includes maintenance operations center and license and passport center and dance studio. Uh as I mentioned in January in the presentation uh this group would be comprised of several uh different um aspects of uh representation we'd have uh three members of the public and from the surrounding neighborhood uh representative the VFW and um uh representatives of uh I believe it's five uh city commissions finance parks and recreation public works environment transportation and equity and inclusion that it's four um it's five >> and uh so In the in the report, I do note that uh those commissions have already appointed members uh on there and we are looking to have the city council appoint a member. We are in the process of reaching out to the neighborhood uh to get um um applications andor interest u from uh those folks out there. We um have met uh a couple times with our consultants and started framing up how this would look like. Right now, we're uh thinking there'd be a total of three meetings um uh between January and April. We expect um hopefully by April, we'll be pretty far along the design path on on those projects. And we have tentatively scheduled the first meeting held at uh on Thursday, January 15th, 6 p.m. here at city hall. The other dates are TBD. I think we want to get people in the room and see what works best for all of them. But most likely it will be an evening meeting um uh in those uh subsequent months. So quite simply just asking for the city council to appoint one of the members to serve as civic campus final design stakeholder group and we'll put them to work. >> All right. Uh council member interest in serving on that group. >> I'd put forth the name of Julie Strong because she's been on the council long enough to have been through this process. >> Right. Any other council members interested? >> Interested. >> Well, [laughter] confirm that. >> Okay. All right. Uh would you say that that becomes a motion then, Mr. >> I would move that. >> Council member Gra. All right. Is there a second to that motion? >> Can I second myself? >> You certainly can. >> Okay. Second. >> All right. It's been seconded by council member Stron. Uh on the appointment of council member Stron to serve on this group. Uh discussion on the motion as the maker of the motion. Council member Grath. No, I I think she's been involved in this since, you know, in a through the years she's been on the council. I think there would be a good voice on there. >> Right. Other discussion as the seconder. I don't know if you want to add. Okay. Other discussion hearing none. All those in favor signify by saying I. I opposed. That passes unanimously and that appointment is made. Congratulations, Council Member Strong. All right. Uh that then brings us uh to our consent agenda this evening. Uh we've got a handful of items on there and I'll turn it over to our city manager uh Pat Trejudan to uh give us uh the highlights of those items. >> Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Uh item 10A approves payments in the amount of $912,761.35. Agenda item 10B approves an expenditure to replace the city campus electronic sign on current road C in the amount of 59,600. The new sign will replace one installed in 2009 whose panels are failing due to the age of the control board and replacement parts are either expensive or obsolete and this is a planned expense uh budgeted expense. Item 10 C approves the lawful gambling premises permit for St. Paul firefighters local 21. They will operate at the new Burger Dive in Rosedale Mall. They meet all the local requirements including the required spending of the proceeds in the local trade area as defined in the ordinance. Item 10D approves the final payment for the Tamarack Park Pathway project to Minnesota Paving and Materials in the amount of 82,6676.79. Item 10E approves final payment for the 2025 sanitary sewer main lining project to install USA in the amount of $550,4148. Agenda item 10F approves entering into professional service agreement with uh Keith Stf for dangerous or potentially dangerous dog appeals that we just uh just talked about. And then agenda item 10G receives a third quarter financial report and that is the consent agenda. >> All right. Um is there a motion on the consent items? >> So moved. >> Second. >> All right. It's been moved by council member Gra, seconded by council member Stron to approve the consent items. Any discussion on the motion? >> No. I did just want to note on the two uh final payment items. I believe the the the official actions include authorizing the final payment as well as uh accepting the projects and uh that starts the warranty period on those. And those are I believe both two-year warranty periods. Uh with that, uh all those in favor of the motion to approve the consent items signify by saying I. I opposed. That passes unanimously. Those items are approved. Uh city manager Trejan uh is in a different place to go through the future agenda. So, we'll turn it back over to Mr. Judging. >> Yeah, my apologies. I couldn't seem to control it from up there. So, I'll just pull up the future agenda. As you well know, we have one more meeting left in 2025. Uh that is next Monday. And uh we have uh as been already mentioned several times tonight, really the last meeting to consider and approve the budget. So, we'll hold another uh continue the public hearing on the 2026 budget and levy. Uh look to approve the EDA and city budget and levy. look to approve the fee schedule for 26 and the utility rates uh for 2026. At the conclusion of that meeting, I would like to go into close session to consider a potential uh offer to purchase a portion of 1145 Woodhill. That's the VFW that's related to the uh civic campus uh project here. So, that's what we have in store for next Monday. also remind the council on December 3rd uh which is this Wednesday uh there is the Roseville business exchange from 4:30 to 6:30 at Rosville Cedar Home Golf Course. This is a great opportunity to network with various uh various uh business leaders in the community and a great opportunity just to learn more about their business and um interact with the city. So uh hopefully we'll see you there if you can make it. That's what I have. >> Great. Thank you, Mr. Tro. Questions on the future agenda? >> Um comments? >> Yes. I just had to in response to one of the questions we'd gotten about the close session, I had asked attorney Tierney to um explain what that why there is a close session and maybe um if someone was concerned that we had some lawsuits or other things that were in progress, where they'd find out that information and she had some info for us. Council member Strong, uh, with regard to the closed session, um, under state law, uh, cities are permitted to discuss how much they want to pay for a property they're considering buying it behind closed doors so that like anybody else who's trying to decide strategically how much they want to pay for something, you can have that conversation in private. Um, I might get all not I might not remember off the top of my head all of the details, but there are several requirements for a close session regarding the purchase of property. They have to be recorded. we have to take attendance. You have to keep the tape for eight years. And once the transaction is over, you've decided not to not to purchase the property. Either of those once the issue is has resolved itself, that information all becomes public. So, it is in close session. Um, but it all becomes public at some point in the future. Um, with regard to your other question, um, >> lawsuits, >> lawsuits, um, well, if a lawsuit is in Ramsey County, um, you could look on the Ramsey County uh, website that you can look for any active case, any active civil or criminal for that matter case um, by uh, party. So, you could Google sort of in the Ramsey County judicial website um, city of Roseville and you would see any active litigation going on in Ramsey County. I'm not as well verssed in the federal courts, but I think you can do the same thing with the federal court system within the eighth eth judicial district, which is where you are. Um, so I though that that information is all public and all publicly available. >> Thank you. And I think just a follow on to that is like much information that is um generated by or uh available to the city. Um it is available to be requested by members of the public but not necessarily put out proactively by the city because there are volumes and volumes and volumes of information that the city deals with all the time. uh that would almost make it impossible to you know in a cohesive way make information available to the public and different members of the public may have different opinions about what's the most important information for us to make most available uh and so I think that's part of the challenge is why you know as always with uh with these types of um information requests you know members of the public can always request public information from the city uh but uh it becomes fairly unmanageable to try to proactively put every piece of information out uh proactively to people. Um it just becomes um you know almost impossible to manage. So that that's a part of the process. Uh but once again it's probably easier to go to the court sites that were noted to to look uh for litigation uh involving any entity and once again that is public information. So appreciate that clarification. With that, uh, if there are no, uh, further announcements or council member initiated items for future meetings, uh, or, uh, reports, uh, the only item left on our agenda this evening is to adjourn. >> So moved. >> Second. >> All right. It's been moved by Council Member Grath, second by Council Member Sher to adjurnn. Uh, there is no discussion on a motion to adjurnn. All those in favor signify by saying I. I opposed. That passes unanimously and we adjourned at 7:14 p.m. Thank you, everyone. [cough] It goes for your budget hearing. >> Yeah, that's a really good point out if you don't know.