Heat. Heat. [music] [music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] >> Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. [music] Heat. Heat. >> [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] [music] [music] [music] >> Down [music] hey baby. [music] >> [music] [music] [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] [music] >> Heat. [music] Heat. [music] >> [music] >> Hey, [music] [music] hey, hey. >> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] >> All right. [music] >> [music] >> The St. Paul City Council Policy Committee to order. Roll call, please. Council member Buouie. President Nre >> here. >> Council member Jo >> here. >> Council member Coleman >> here. >> Council member Kim. Council member Yang >> here. >> And council member Johnson. Seeing four present, three absent. >> Well, good afternoon everyone. Um, thank you so much to the guests who've joined us today. We are excited to uh hear from you momentarily and I'm sure we'll be joined by more of our colleagues here in just a minute. We're kind of coming off of lunch. Um, we have two items on our agenda today. The first is the death mitigation ordinance proposal. And so I would welcome up um our speakers who are here to speak on that and I'll let them introduce themselves as they come up. Thank you all for for having us here today. Um my name is Miguel Breto. I'm a organizer with the Westside Community Organization, Westco. Um and I help steer in partnership with residents of the Southport area, the Westsiders for Environmental Justice campaign. Um and uh like President Akre had mentioned, we're here to propose a dust mitigation ordinance. Um, and I'll call I'll call um my fellow presenters up as their sections come up. So, before we get into the actual like nitty-gritty of the ordinance, we wanted to provide some context about the area and the the community um that we're speaking of. So, the Southport uh neighborhood or the Southport area is here on this map. Um, it's located on the far east side of the west side, 55107. And if you look at these, oh, of course, this is acting up now. So, these streets that pop up here, all those all those streets are residential areas. Um, and the main thing to highlight is Highway 52, that red line running through is active railroad, and then the uh Southport Industrial District um here, and then the the airport, the South uh St. Paul airport. And we like to show folks this because it just it shows how many uh polluters are surrounding this this neighborhood, this residential neighborhood. Um with that said, residents who have been living in this area for generations and decades have faced and had to carry the burden of this nearby industrial activity. Um, so being lots of dust in the air, uh, smells of burning smells, sewage smells, weird chemical odors, um, lots of noise and vibrations and the shaking of homes and foundations, um, and then heavy truck traffic due to the industrial activity that is in the area. Um when we look at the uh definition of an environmental justice area stated by the state of Minnesota through the commulative impacts bill, this area of the west side specifically qualifies it has two um uh two meets two of the standards uh to qualify as an environmental justice area. So 87% of the people in this area are people of color. Um and 46% of the households in this area are below the 200% federal poverty level. Um we think this is important because if you look historically at how the city was planned um and redlined and frankly the environmental racism that uh created the city that we live in today. Um, it's not uh it's not um it makes sense. This this how this neighborhood is comprised makes sense based on how things were planned back in 1935 and before that. Um and it shows that the people who hold this burden are um people of color and lower income folks. So residents have been documenting their experiences and I'll just play these videos uh to get to get uh through this. But this video is originally 2 minutes long of this dust. This is someone's back window of their house. Um, it goes on for 2 minutes and this is uh one example of dust in the area. Here we have trucks that uh pick up this dust and um from the ground once it settles and all the traffic will pick pick this dust back up. There's a couple examples of that. As this truck drives by, you see all the dust that is being thrown into the air. uh sighting of homes is covered in in filth. Um this is from Samantha that they had their sighting powerwashed. This is a town home association. They actually stopped paying for the power washing because the dust would have returned so frequently that they didn't think it was worth uh continuing to invest that money. Same thing with vehicles. Um one of the neighbors, Katie, uh sent me this. This was last last year actually. She's like, "I washed my car 2 days ago and it's already filthy um 2 days later." Go through this quick. So, when we look at where this dust is coming from, we can't help but notice the big brown uh spot on the map next to this uh neighborhood. Um and these unpaved surfaces in this area, we think are preventable sources of dust. Um, if these surfaces were paved, then we we don't think we would see as much dust pollution. Get through this quick. So, we have purple air sensors in the area provided by the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency. And these are screenshots of some of the um data that residents have gathered. When people smell things, they'll screenshot the purple air map in their sensors. So, here's a couple of those readings. A few more. And these go from December of last year all the way. We have some up till current. This was September 3rd. U just to show the uh discrepancy between the other sensors in the area and the one we have in our community. This is Minnesota Pollution Control Agency. They have a monitor that measures total suspended particulate matter. The primary standard is what they would consider that affects public health and this is right in this neighborhood next to the church or Lady Guadalupe. Um and the secondary standard they say would affect like um public welfare or nuisance. Um, but we've exceeded those standards every single year since this monitor was installed. And then we exceeded the primary standard in 2023. Nothing has been done from the MPCA. This is asthma emergency department visits um westside statewide metro and then we also got some information from the Summit Hill neighborhood to show again the large discrepancy between our our zip code and children and adults who have emergency department visits due to asthma related incidents. Um this is hospitalizations in the area as well and again the data shows that our community is being affected by this uh disproportionately. pause [clears throat] you there. There's looks like there's a question from Miss Coleman. >> Thank you, uh, Council President. Thanks for the presentation. Just to make sure I'm reading this right, there's for the the bar chart for Summit Hill on the second to the 07 and the 18 plus is invisible. >> Yeah. No, so we we don't have that data. We actually Yeah. We don't have that specific data. Um, we were only able to find the all ages for for the subject. >> Super help. I was like, >> yeah. Yeah. >> I'm not mathing this. Thanks for bringing that up. Yeah, but that's the that's the data we were able to collect for for the area. Um, so to talk more about this, I want to invite uh a resident from the area. Um, I'll allow her to introduce herself. >> Welcome up. >> Thank you so much for having me and allowing to share my story. So, my name is Samantha Sanchez. I'm a resident to the Southport residential area for the past 5 years of August. I live there with my husband and my two kids. Um, I joined West Coast Westiders for environmental justice leadership last year in July. Um, one day Miguel and Diego decided to door knock on us and basically explain to some um degree to the things that we were living that we felt that it was just us experiencing those. Um, so to paint you an idea of what my neighborhood looks like, my town home association, like Miguel mentioned, used to power wash our sighting every month, but because of the frequent accumulation of the dust, they just completely stopped because they found it pointless. Um, fresh cars again, like you saw my neighbors Katie getting washed and then looking like they just ran through a dirt road. But it's not just the nuisance that it's been creating of labor for residents. It's also the health impacts that it's creating to residents in the area. Um, statistically, children in the area of 55107 are more likely for asthma related illnesses to go to the emergency. My son being one of those statistics since he was 4 months old, he's been having respiratory issues. We've gone to specialists. He's gotten X-rays and they just can't have a conclusive answer to why he's having these issues. And my only thing that I can think of as a mother and living in the area knowing how bad the conditions are is what we're breathing in. Right? So I daily have to use a nebulizer to help him breathe or to offset some of the symptoms that he's having because he has difficulty breathing. It shouldn't be a luxury to breathe in clean air or worry about what kids what my kids are going to breathe in because this issue is the main reason not the only one but one of the many that we have made the difficult decision to move out of our home. We've built such a beautiful connection with our neighbors and residents. And to me that's very hard having to leave something that I familiarized. I've known my, you know, neighbors now by name, not just my neighbor that lives in the blue house. and now I can say my neighbor Katie, my neighbor Jasine. So that to me is very dust, you know, heartbreaking because I'm having to leave somewhere where I called home for such a long time. Um, I'm not the only one. Like I mentioned, other residents that I've spoken to and heard their stories. They have nebulizers on their children, having to take them in frequently for more asthma or respiratory related issues. So that to me is just is part of the reason why I joined this campaign and I'm standing here in front of you. Um, I am full support of this dust mitigation ordinance. Honestly, this is something that should have been implemented years ago because of what um we're experiencing on a dayto-day. Um, we are in close proximity of industrial activity and with no barrier or no zoning for us to be protected of what's going on. This is something that should be passed and should be supported. um not just by the nuance the nuance that it's created of the health of the residents in the area, but to finally feel that we are a neighborhood worthy of things that we see as luxuries that shouldn't be luxuries, such as clean air. So, I thank you for your time. Thank you very much. Welcome. Thank you. My name is Ashlin Kenzior. I use she her pronouns. I'm a staff attorney at the Minnesota Center for Environmental Advocacy. So, I am here to support the residents of Southport in their request for a dust mitigation ordinance. And as an attorney, I am here to talk about the nuts and bolts of the proposal and the research that went into it. Uh, but I do have to say that I am here as part of my job acknowledging that the residents are here because this is impacting their entire lives. So, I am deferring to them. They are the experts on their lived experience here. The proposed ordinance has a really simple goal of reducing total suspended particullet, particulate matter, and dust from Southport Industrial to improve air quality and health outcomes for the residents of Southport. So, we've spoken with residents about their key concerns. Westsiders for Environmental Justice, which are spearheaded by some of the folks who are in this room today, about their key concerns, and a dust mitigation ordinance rose to the top. One avenue here is what we've researched. We looked at a couple of different local ordinances and mechanisms for addressing dust and we have settled on the proposal that is before you all today. Uh so we've consulted with residents. We've gone back and forth and gotten their feedback on it and the dust mitigation ordinance that we have here is modeled off of one from 2024 from Detroit, Michigan. So the overview of it is that this would require a proactive fugitive dust plan from each of the facilities in the covered area. And the covered area would be any active commercial or industrial area that has unpaved roads. As you saw, there are significant unpaved roads in Southport Industrial that are kicking up all of this dust. And part of the reason we wanted to have a plan that was proactive in nature is in recognition of the harms that the community has been experiencing and the long history of environmental racism that has impacted this neighborhood. So for the fugitive dust plan itself, I want to run through some of those components that we are proposing today. The first is that the facility would have this fugitive dust plan that would include their dust control procedures and their implementation mechanisms. We'd also want a description of any of the environmental harms or the effects of those dust mitigation measures because we don't want to trade air pollution for water pollution in this neighborhood. We want to make sure those plans have specific plans for training staff on the identified dust control measures, including a description of the key roles in which staff are responsible for implementation. And then also include contingency plans for periods of extreme weather. So if there's drought, if there are high winds, those sorts of situations. To increase transparency for this neighborhood, we would also be asking for the industry to create public fact sheets that contains the highlevel points about their dust mitigation plans as well as a contact person that residents can contact if they do have any questions. So these fugitive dust plans would then be created by the facilities themselves, presented to and approved by DSI, and then implemented acknowledging that they may need to change or be updated from time to time. So the facilities would then be responsible for implementing the facility specific fugitive dust plan and a failure to do so would result in a violation of this new ordinance. for enforcement. Uh we've spoken to residents and we have a proposed mechanism for enforcement to present to you all today, but we also know that this would have to be informed by city staff who are going to be on the ground enforcing this. Right now we are proposing a complaintsbased measure which the preliminary idea would be for residents to contact DSI with complaints about a failure to implement a fugitive dust plan for DSI to notify the facility to go out and see observe um and inspect that particular area and then determine whether a violation has occurred. We do want to acknowledge that with dust in some of the videos that you've seen here, that's not a stagnant stationary thing that's going to happen. And we don't expect DSI to drop everything and to immediately run to the Southport neighborhood. So, there are concerns about how observation or inspection would work. And one of the considerations we've spoken about is using resident testimony and resident documentation to support a finding of a violation. But we do also want to know that this puts uh the burden on the residents themselves to be contacting folks and we want to make sure whatever portal exists to submit complaints is the most accessible and inclusive as possible. There are folks in the neighborhood who may not be comfortable or have access to internet-based services or who may not be comfortable with the English language and we want to make sure that they're still able to participate here. So for fines or violations, um in the event there is a violation, we would expect there to be an inspection from DSI, there might be a requirement that the facility modify their fugitive dust plan and then the fines could increase for future violations. And based on an ordinance that is in Dearborn, Michigan, we would also like to recommend that any fines that are assessed be can be be used to improve the community in which the violation occurred and to support environmental justice efforts specifically in Southport. So with that, I am happy to take questions. Um, and I'll invite Miguel and Samantha back up here uh for any questions that the council has. Thank you. >> Great. Thank you so much. Um, I want to start just by thanking all of you and espec especially Samantha, you and other residents for leading on this initiative. I know we've been talking for years now. Um, and to this work is not done. It's just continuing, but I think this moment is really a a milestone and I hope you feel that um, being here today. Um I I and I also just want to acknowledge as you very well said this is all of us are are busy with our lives and our jobs and parenting and our hobbies and our grocery shopping and on top of all of that you and others have taken the time to also be advocating for something that most of us completely take for granted. So thank you for doing that. Um, I have a specific technical question and I really want to hear my colleagues thoughts because the purpose of this is to hear get the chance to interact with you all in one place and share our thoughts and questions. Um, you mentioned in the memo that the MPCA already does have a rule regulating fugitive dust. Can you speak a little bit to how the existence of a city dust ordinance would add to that complement that why it's important to have a local ordinance as well? >> Yes, absolutely. So it would complement that um and it would affectuate the goal that is stated in the MPCA rule. So this is more of an implementation measure because MPCA is not coming out to implement that directly. Um and it is also going into um it's going to build upon existing city council or St. Paul city code because there is a specific provision but it is for asphalt, concrete and rock [snorts] crushing. So, you already have this uh sort of framework that exists within city code acknowledging the harms from fugitive dust, but that is part of the permitting process. Um, and if you look in the MPCA what's in my neighborhood section, you will see that there are almost no air quality permits um that are located in Southport Industrial. So, we don't want to relegate this to a permitting procedure. We want to effectuate this MPCA rule with a specific city ordinance. >> Thank you. That's really helpful. And it reminds me a little bit of our wage theft ordinance where the state already bans wage theft, but by bringing it inhouse as it were and having a local ordinance on the books, we then allowed gave ourselves the power to enforce which is something that I know has it's much harder to get MPCA to take enforcement action than the city. So, thank you for that. Um, other questions and looking to my colleagues also for just comments and discussion. Miss Buoie, >> thank you. I have a comment in a question as well. Uh, I just want to say council president uh nicker, thank you so much for just like you know I'm leading on this and your office leading on this as well. Um, I just want to say it's just incredible just to see this model of like community grassroots organizing translated into actual policy proposal. Um this is actually a model that I would love to see more of um on the policy committee and also it's just a testament to the leadership of the district council um as well. So um and again like what was said before you know a lot of these things we kind of take for granted right um in ward one I have a there's a industry or artery road like Dell Avenue as well as Marian Street which has a lot of these issues but you know even as my three years as policy maker and like a lifetime of a community organizer um I'm really really happy to hear that you have actual like attorney attorneys and expertise particularly in bringing your research into some form of ordinance that's being proposed to us. So, I'm excited to learn more and dig deep into like how we can actually implement this enforcement. Um, I know there's um uh issues around like climate um justice, environmental justice um uh issues particularly in Frogtown. we have like a refinery and I know um Westco have also been um allies and partnerships and champions for that as well. Uh but I do have a question just kind of more so of like technical question. Um, as we just really think about how this can be enforced, what it actually looks like implementationwise, operationwise, is there anything particularly around your research um around like industry standards in which um a vehicle has to like abide by in transition or in transporting these type of materials. Um because even just looking at the videos and just even from like my own experience seeing like you know dust is coming from these large um um vehicles hauling vehicles is there any like industry requirements in terms of like covering um because one of the things I'm thinking of like you know the city and government is really good at creating a hammer right it is it's important to have a hammer but if is there anything technicalwise that this issue can be prevented it. We can prevent this dust um um um um um or mitigate the dust um and the impacts in the neighborhoods by way of just like requiring certain vehicles have like a covering or certain equipment to make sure the dust is actually sustained. >> Uh so I do think part of the issue with that is that the dust is already on the road so the trucks are kicking up that dust. I'm not f familiar with specific industry standards, but in Washurn, Wisconsin, they do have a location specific ordinance that is specific to roads that are leaning leading to and from mines. So, there was a 15 mile per hour speed limit there imposed with recognition of the fact that if these trucks are sort of barreling down this road, it's going to kick up even more dust. Um, and for those of you who aren't familiar with it, there is only one road in and out of the Southport neighborhood and they have to cross through where those trucks are passing as well where they're being stopped by the train. So, it's sort of a perfect storm of a situation. But I'd happy I'd be happy to look at some more industry standard language and that could even be something that would be incorporated into the fugitive dust plan that would I mean it's our hope that this would mitigate a lot of those problems and that there wouldn't be violations that we would see improved air quality for residents. Thank you and thank you for the question. I I just I also want to mention that those those videos I I have been on site the leaders gave a tour several tours of the area. Um and uh my own throat was clouded with dust by the end of just half hour or so on the tour. So it it's not just the visuals that you're seeing here. There's a physical effect and that was just a temporary time being there. So appreciate the questions. I also want to acknowledge I see a bunch of questions that um the Port Authority is also here which owns the Southport Industrial Area um and several of their tenants I believe are here too and I appreciate you being here. There are always multiple sides of these issues and I think that um you probably have another perspective or a complimentary perspective to what's being talked about today and we will make sure to hear that from you and also want to welcome you if you have anything you'd like to add to the conversation today. I see Miss Coleman, I see Miss Jo and I saw Miss Johnson. >> Thank you. Um, I really don't have a question. I just want to say I really appreciate this presentation. I grew up in 55107. And I think that if we could get even more granular than at the zip code level, you would find that the statistics are even more horrifying because my part of 55107 didn't have this issue. And so I think that we are, as horrifying as some of the information that you all have shared with us today is, it probably doesn't even tell the entire story of what we're really dealing with in a very concentrated area. So I um yeah, it's just thinking about everything that we've experienced as a city and as a state with deteriorating air quality over the last couple of years and seeing the very very real consequences of that just for a couple of days at a time. Um I'm really grateful that you all brought this to us and really look forward to continuing the conversation. I appreciate the questions that you all raised of sort of how do we make sure that this is enforceable? How do we deal with some of the challenges of dust comes and goes? Um recognizing that there are other perspectives that we haven't heard, I want to make sure that we're really careful about how we craft an ordinance that would address this. Um but just and strongly agree with the council president that it is it's great to have laws on the books at some level that do good things at some level, but if we don't actually have the ability to enforce that or make it real, then what are we doing? um and enforcement is such such a challenge and wanting to make sure that again we get this right so that we make this real um for the residents of Southport. I just anyway I'm very supportive of continuing to explore this um and appreciate you all being here today. >> Thank you Miss Coleman. Miss Jo. >> Uh thank you Council President Naker for bringing this forward. I um really appreciate this discussion. I just have a couple comments. Um I don't know if it's possible to I know there was talk about the dust already being in the road. I don't know if and I know it's owned by the port, but if public works, I mean, we do street sweeping. I don't know if there's an opportunity for additional street sweeping um in that area, but I'll say that I'm very supportive of this um and moving towards crafting this policy. I I really appreciate the story that you shared about your um about asthma. I mean, the additional the the much higher asthma related emergency visits in this area are really alarming. Um, and my son also has asthma and so I know what it's like to have to do a nebulizer every day. And I just want to point out that it's a lot of work and it's really expensive even if you have insurance. And so, as much as we can mitigate that for for our youngest residents, I really support that. >> Thank you, M. just um and I [clears throat] do again if the port authority wants to now or later talk about some of the sweeping and mitigation strategies they already use um we are open to hearing that as well. Miss Johnson. >> Yeah, I um appreciate just kind of the the conversation. I am curious just from some of the work that has went into it if it's also like is it geog like is the recommendation geographic specific? Like is the ordinance citywide? like the scope of the recommendation. >> Yes. So, the recommendation would be for a covered facility to be defined as any area that is active, commercial, or industrial that has unpaved roads because we're seeing that is primarily the cause of the fugitive dust in the Southport region, but we would recommend that that be a city-wide ordinance. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Um [clears throat] I want to see if there's any other vice president. >> Thanks, Council President. I want to say thank you to all of the presenters today. I empathize with everything that you've shared and when I think about my ward like you know that everything you shared reminds me a lot about Northern Ireland which I'm sure you've heard a lot about that um you know different situation um but in terms of the irreparable harm um with the health impacts to our communities you know it's it's really all the same and so I um wanted to share my support you know for for this ordinance and I just wanted to name that I believe with these sort of ordinances in place we can we can be even more proactive in this sort of conversation rather than reactive and even in situations like Northern Iron which that facility is going to, you know, we heard it's going to be closed before the end of the year. Um there, you know, it it's it can ensure that, you know, that harm doesn't continue for generations to come. And so I um am interested in in hearing or seeing um a what an ordinance would look like because I see the the attorney notes that you have here in terms of like the layout for it. it doesn't look similar to the ordinances that come before us when when we vote on it. And so was wondering if you can talk a bit about um whether there is language that's been worked on or are you in discussion with uh with the council president's office and like our city attorneys on that and so if you can sketch that out for us. >> So it would be based on the existing ordinance that is in Detroit and thank you for your comments and your questions. We would be happy to work with the council president's office and with the city attorney on this. We do not have our own language. It's our understanding that the city attorney would want to take the lead on that, but I'm also happy to contribute. >> Yeah. And um thank you, Vice President. We wanted to bring this to policy committee first, get gauge general reactions. I'm really um pleased to see that there seems to be a lot of support around the table. Um we would then we will be moving forward on a proposal um and working on language to bring forward and chop around with the city attorney's office. Um I think I saw Miss Buoie and then I think we'll go from there. >> Perfect. Thank you, council president. I do have another question because I know you had um um recognized or highlighted that um the port authority is here. I just wanted to just see if we can welcome the port authority. Um like I mentioned, I am in support of this um just because of the you know my goals particularly and my values around improving air quality and just making sure that we just have um you know a more improved quality of life for our residents. um and ensuring that we have uh you know we also have a place where you know our commercial or industrial you know u organizations and entities can ensure that they're still doing business but making sure they're doing it safely. Um I just have a question particularly around like the port authority and um what are their kind of industry standards and if they can respond to some of the things that were brought up particularly around MPCA um you know how do they um remain in compliancy with MPCA because I know this is a broader um question where you know a Minnesota um um um regulatory agency you know has puts out stats, puts out, you know, monitors, you know, all these different type of air pollution qualities and there can it kind of seems like there's like a drop in communication like the reports out, but then we don't hear much from that entity. So, I would love to just like hear um kind of like the responses around um how the port authority is addressing that. >> Welcome, Mr. Hurley. You've got nine seconds. >> Nine seconds. Thank you, [laughter] Council President, members of the council. Uh Todd Hurley, president CEO of the St. Paul Port Authority. I've heard a whole bunch of different questions that may or may not be uh within my prerogative to answer. So the one thing I'll start with is the roads down in Southport are actually owned by the city of St. Paul and we currently contract through our tenants to um sweep or to sweep those roads at least once a week. Our tenants also take extra actions in sweeping roads too within their own private facilities. Um, secondly, I think you were talking about enforcement opportunities. So, to be clear, the St. Paul Port Authority um created and helped create this the the the uh Southport properties back in 1964. We are a land owner. Uh, but we have leases with all the private sector tenants that are down on Southport. It is our expectation that our tenants do work with the MPCA who is the governing authority around dust mitigation uh on a complaint basis uh in the state of Minnesota. So it is our expectation through our leases that our tenants do abide by state law and MPCA authority to enforce any uh dust mitigation processes in the city. Um if if an ordinance is to come forward, we'll have to figure out what that means. But at the end of the day, um I've heard from the attorney here that that that that might create additional enforcement or create uh more authority to tell the city through D or tell our tenants through DSI to follow these dust mitigation ordinances. But again, it's important for us to know and remind our tenants and they know that and we've talked to them and we've got record we've got statements to the council president just this week on what they're doing um down at Southport around dust mitigation. So, um, is there another question that I missed? >> I think in the interest of time, we're going to keep it there. That's very helpful and I appreciate it. And again, we will continue to be in communication with everyone here today beyond today. >> Um, but thank you for the direct question and the direct answer. Um, with that, I wanted to just see if there's any final words uh from our original presenters. >> Yes. So, um, we want to invite everybody here to a tour that we'll be hosting on October 9th um, from 2:30 to 4:00 p.m. Um, tour will start at 3. We were hoping that city council members could take some time um to come down here, hear from residents um and see the actual conditions in the neighborhood. We also invite folks from the St. Paul Port Authority to come on down and and see those conditions as well. Um and that that's our last uh kind of uh thing to add. Um I will be sending formal invitations to you all to all your offices um by the end of this week. Um so you guys can have that. So thank you very much. >> Thank you again for your leadership. Thank you all for your time. Um Samantha, thank you for thinking not just even about your own family, but about the family that is going to move in after you. Um which not everybody would do. And uh we will continue to be in touch. And thanks again to my colleagues for your um engagement in this conversation. Thank you. We are going to hard pivot to our next topic which is a city council legislative attorney analysis. >> Welcome Mr. Greenfield. >> Thank you, council president. Just one second. I get started here in the beginning. >> Miss Johnson, >> while he's getting set up, I'll just preface it as a reminder since it came originally just from some of the council's budget priorities that this was something that uh council had uh expressed the unanimous interest in hearing more about. So, this is why I chose to bring this topic up to the policy committee. Um, and have and I'm looking forward to it. Also been working with Mr. Greenfield on it just to see what has been done in the past. Um, but just to provide somewhat of a refresher that this was something that came up in every single council member's comments um during the retreat that we had as well. So, as just over the years, it's been a common topic. So, looking forward to hearing more. >> Thank you for following the through line through. >> Yes. Thank you, Council President. And like uh Chair Johnson was saying, this comes out of a request from the budget committee to discuss um kind of the policy parameters that might be in place for discussing um what can broadly be categorized as an independent city city council attorney. What I would note at the beginning is that a lot of this presentation has already been researched and um developed by our colleagues in the city of Minneapolis's city council. Their legislative research office presented to the committee of the whole for the Minneapolis city council on May 6th. um they spent about 8 to 10 minutes really highlighting the municipal differences uh that do exist um across a survey. So I'll speak about the results of that study in a little bit more detail and also I'll provide um some potential models for attaining that objective while grounding the conversation in the ethical responsibilities of attorneys as well as the restrictions that exist within our legal charter that that govern the city itself. Um so that's the basic background. Um, we're all familiar with our city charter that provides for the organization and the responsibilities of officials in the city, not just the mayor, but also the city council members. It also has a chapter that describes and establishes the office of the city attorney. Uh, I did some initial early research on previous charters and it was previously known as the corporation council. Um, the selection of uh a city attorney is provided by stat uh provided by the charter as well in section 3.013 013 which is the mayor's um powers and duties to appoint with the advice and consent of the city council the positions of city attorney and all heads of executive departments which serve at the mayor's pleasure. So under our current um current charter system, the appointment of the city attorney is made by the mayor's office with the advice and consent of this council which is what we did in January with the election and inauguration of a new mayor's office. Um there are some uh appointment and removal procedures provided meaning that the uh city attorney serves at the pleasure of the mayor and that prior to appointment the city attorney shall be practiced to uh practice law in the state of Minnesota. Um the charter also specifies the power and duties of the city attorney that the city attorney shall represent the city and all causes in which the city is interested and shall have full and complete charge of the legal business of the city. The charter also provides that the city attorney may appoint three deputy assistants and deputy assistants shall hold office at the pleasure of the city attorney. So it creates kind of that establish uh that mechanism in place where the charter provides for three deputies all of whom report to the city attorney's office who report to the mayor uh who serves at the pleasure of the mayor's um um you know consideration and approval. So that is the basic structure of the city attorney's office within the charter and these um these structures in place I think provide a very clearheaded um qualification to make at the outset of this conversation which is our current city charter does not contemplate a separate and independent attorney for the city council that the city is seen as an entity by itself and that the city council that the city attorney acts on behalf of that entity. and the decision makers within that that considers constituent decision makers to be both the mayor and the city council and that conclusion was shared with the city council of Minneapolis as well that absent a charter change um there are real no there are no defined pathways within our charter to establish a separate independent uh position that would represent the interests of the city council somehow separate from that of the city or somehow separate from that of the mayor. Um so from that with that important distinction I just wanted to dive into what the study did present as what other cities have enabled or envisioned as a model for uh executing an independent attorney and what that might look like um in legislative and municipal governance. I think it's important to clarify the role of what government attorneys do in this very specific function. Um in in a municipal context, government attorneys provide legal advice and representation to the entity itself and the functions of that legal council ensure that the entity's decision comply um with applicable law, advise on the legal risks and the advisability of you know potential changes or policies that may be adopted and the defensibility of those proposed measures. works on drafting legislation and representing the entity in in litigation and across the citywide uh the the survey of different cities across the country. That term to refer to either a city attorney, a corporation council or general counsel, all of them can be collapsed as to having that same duty. Um so any sort of additional or legal council that puts the attorneys representing some entity other than the city would have to exist with a charter change in order to go forward. In cities where legal counsel is embedded within the legislative branch, the function of that council is typically more limited and depending on governing authority may include the following which is drafting and reviewing ordinances, resolutions and contracts, providing conf confidential advice on policy design, governance authority and compliance, coordinating with executive or attorney authority attorneys when litigation or inter branch disputes arise. Our current model doesn't contemplate that separation of responsibilities. it all falls within one executive department which is the city attorney's office. So in terms of the charter authority, these are the sections that I think are relevant to that conversation that um we can't transfer the duties that are legally bound within the city attorney's office to anyone else and that that office's responsibilities exists as an executive department. Um and that kind of informs the overall structure of this conversation moving forward. Um then we also have our administrative code. As we know, we can adopt administrative ordinances that amend or regulate the conduct of the city's business um under certain parameters. And there is a chapter of the administrative code that relates to the city attorney's office. The first section relates to the appointment power. The the powers and duties section is much more extensive and I I think it would be helpful just to show it rather than detail it. So there are a variety of duties that exist um of the general powers of the city attorney's office um not just prosecuting and defending actions by and against the city and every city department but a variety of advisory and um legislative functions internal to these powers and duties. So the ones that I would like to highlight of course are clause one where the city attorney is responsible for advising the council uh related to their official powers, duties and functions. So again, if there are questions about this presentation, they should be directed to the city attorney's office to provide that legal an analysis. Another uh powers and duty of the city's attorney's office is being responsible for the preparation of all ordinances and resolutions as requested by the mayor council. As we heard in this conversation related to the dust mitigation ordinance that uh drafting and preparation of legislation goes through the city attorney's office. The second sentence of that state uh sentence provides that the city attorney shall advise the council as to the form and sufficiency of all ordinances prior to their adoption and no ordinance shall be introduced until it uh either shall be approved as to form by the city attorney or until the city attorney has filed a statement with the city of clerk uh statement of reasons why the ordinance is insufficient. um render legal opinions in clause five upon any question of law submitted by the council with respect to their official powers, duties, and obligations. And then it goes into far more extensive duties and powers that have been added on um since the office of the city attorneys was established with the uh recent adop the most recent adoption of our charter in 1973. So what I would note about the legislative history of these one through uh nine response uh responsibilities is by and large they have not been touched since our charter was adopted in 1973 and they are in fact carryovers of previous legal legal functions of the corporation council. So we've consistently held that the responsibility of legislative drafting ordinance preparation legal advice has been nestled within its own office within uh within city government. So that that is the general powers and duties within the administrative code as it relates to um I'm not sure where the PowerPoint went. I guess I disagree. Okay. Um >> I just want to know we have about 15 minutes left including conversation. So >> I'm just going to move ahead here. So based on the independent study that was provided um there was uh and I've included this material in your uh in your presentation. So you can look through the the high level data that is um that was researched or prepared by the the legislative research office. So they studied 70 cities with all with a population over 300,000 the Minneapolis research office uh found 39 cities with comparable city government structures. Of those 39 mayor council cities, 27 of whom the mayor appoints with the city council confirming the city attorney's office. very few cities were identified as having independent general counsel um defined as having um you know that independent legal legislative authority to help prepare ordinances advise city council members on their functions and um those cities were listed on the right. I'm able to provide a little bit more detail about some of those examples. Um, and I think that the the three examples highlighted by the city of Minneapolis's report are are illustrative of what potential models may exist um should a charter change um be desired. Um I'm not I'm going to skip the state level and federal analysis. Just know that those are codified um for the federal in federal statute that the Senate and the House have their own independent legal counsel. Um 45 of 50 states have their own independent legislative research or bill drafting offices. um that provide nonpartisan analysis but don't tend to represent the legislature in any sort of litigation. Any act that's signed by a legislature generally would be defended by the attorney general's office. So this operates solely in a drafting um and ordinance prep or bill preparation um policy preparation uh legal analysis role rather than a litigation role. Um so the three example municipalities studied by the city of Minneapolis provided in detail and again the reports are included on legisar in more detail are the city of New Orleans, the city of Jacksonville and the city of Seattle. And what I would note about each of these models is that they all have give rise um and have kind of different pathways but reach uh a very similar conclusion. Um the city of Seattle elects its city attorney on a citywide election and from there um their legal department exists as the sole legal officer of the city of Seattle. After some concern about the independence, too much independence from that from that general council's role, the city council in Seattle uh established a general a legislative department, a general counsel role within the legislative department of the city council to provide targeted advice on ordinance development, policy development and uh risk analysis, but defers all litigation decisions and ultimately all legal opinions on behalf of the city back to that elected city attorney. The city of New Orleans established an executive council which is of three members I believe was what the research provides uh to provide independent legal advice amid amid tensions with the mayor law department. It provides to um it operates within the council structure and includes formal privilege policies to manage confidentiality and conflicts. There has to be an agreement between that executive council and the law department within the city of New Orleans in order for that uh continual flow of information to be exchanged. The city of Jacksonville is a interesting test case. I won't get into the political dynamics of that for purposes of time, but basically the county and the city consolidated. There was always a provision to allow for an independent legislative attorney, but only after political tensions emerged between the Republican city council county board and the Democratic mayor and the Democratically appointed city attorney did they then move to adopt and create a legislative council. But again, that role is very limited in the sense that they this office of the general counsel for the city of Jacksonville retains final legal authority. Um, which per the research constraints true independence of legislative legal support. So, city charters that require a city attorney and her staff of assistant attorneys to provide legal advice and representation um can have can lead to conflict. Um it's inevitable that and part of the business and part of the contemplation of our charter that there would be disagreement between um the mayor's office and and the city council when it comes to um the path forward for um certain policy options or the way that a government decides to conduct its business. Um when government bodies have differing goals for the city, a conflict of interest may occur. This is not saying that a conflict interest does occur. This is to say that they may have concurrent competing interests. The rules of professional conduct that exist to govern and regulate the ethics of attorneys, all attorneys in the state of Minnesota, do speak to these circumstances, but they don't speak to the role of the city attorney. And in that ambiguity of who is the true client in that situation, a traditional view would be the city is the client and the decision makers within are the ultimate decision makers are the ones that direct the the representation for that client. But when there are multiple decision makers at equal levels of power, that does raise a question of how are those situations addressed? And our charter does contemplate a variety of checks and balances. The veto an override of a veto that allows for the um introduction of ordinances that um have to meet legal sufficiency. So there is a level of review contemplated within our charter that speaks to a potential conflict of interest. But that only can be resolved I think through either existing practices where all parties are aware that the conflict exists and everyone moves forward with all facts or saying that a conflict exists risks creating more tension that might otherwise not be there. So naming that an independent council should exist to rep represent the interests of one entity over another doesn't under change the fact that the city attorney's legal responsibility is to the entity of the city and their advice would be for the overall best interest of the city. So identifying who the client is is the barrier for saying whether there is a conflict of interest and the client in this situation is the city of St. Paul through all its elected and constituent um members who make decisions. So under that restriction I I tried to identify two potential models and considerations. One of uh two of which would fall within not discussing a charter change but rather trying to effectuate the intent of that request from budget retreat and the other two would require a charter change and they're more for your consideration because obvious systematic and political will like there's a lot of effort that goes into reforming our charter that I think I just don't have the time to detail all the risks that would go down that pathway. Um and of course implementing any sort of charter or change would have um budgetary considerations as well. So without amendment to the charter to potential pathways that ICA could identify as establishing more of an independent legal uh authority for the city council but within the existing city charter. This would not change the client relationship. This would not change the duties that that those attorneys would owe to the city or to whom they would report. But you could additionally add to the complement of city attorneys. We currently have Dan and Teresa and great attorneys within our civil team, but we could add, you know, allocate more on a budget level and focus, you know, and off in a in a soft sense or in an agreement sense who those attorneys might be, what their responsibilities might be and just work collectively or collaboratively to identify potential workflow issues that could be addressed with more staffing. Of course, this would still be subject to the direction of the deputy who reports to the head city attorney. And the other two buckets kind of fall within that same um pathway, which is refining the city attorney's responsibilities within the administrative code, which again would still have to comply with the charter's responsibilities, or adopt additional requirements within the administrative code related to that office. And I pointed out section 3.02 uh clause 3 related to the introduction of ordinances is one potential example. Um you know, that process is, you know, has hasn't been touched since 1973. there may be a way to incorporate the legal advice and the direction and the very clear duties of the city attorney but still for allow for more legislative development by adjusting the timing of when that memo of insufficiency may come in. Um that's you know just a way to observe a potential procedural change that could allow for more independent legislative development while still being consistent with the overall duties that the office is responsible for per the charter. >> Thank you so much. If it's if we've covered most of the proposal, I think we should open it up for questions. I'm sure more will come up as we speak. Miss Johnson. >> Thanks, Council President. I appreciate that. I guess I just was wondering, you know, I know that we've made some efforts to hiring um within the council staff. So, just looking at the staff budget increase to add existing civil division um and even just the comparisons between Minneapolis and what they were researching back. Can you just share like how um that might differ from that of like a chief policy person? So like from your role and your background like what would be the distinction when you say legislative background like what is the distinction if there is >> I can't speak uh council president and then council member Johnson I can't speak to the exact complement of people who work for the legislative research office that prepared the report but I think that that would be an analogous of me times whatever number of people that would provide nonpartisan analysis policy development um and research. Um I don't have anything other than just anecdotal research. I I didn't talk to that office in preparing this report, but I would get the sense that it would be more along the lines of something that might exist at the state level of providing uh like research on potential ideas that come forward. Um whether they offer legal advice, I think they they offered the disclaimer in their presentation that all legal questions should still be directed to their city attorney's office. So to answer your question about staff complement of that office, I'm not entirely sure what it would be, but I think they have multiple researchers in house there. >> Okay. And as a followup, council president, although I would say to my my colleagues in this discussion and when I was able to review the scenarios outlined, you know, obviously every time we embark on a charter change, it's hard, but I think I said in this body before that or we should be asking our charter commission a lot more for things. And so, you know, I think that there's always it's always beneficial to us to hear about what they are thinking and what kind of questions they may have. um because these are folks that volunteer to be on the charter commission and I feel like sometimes interesting topics for them shouldn't be these big opaque topic areas that we're shy to go to the commission and ask the community what they think about certain things. Um, but I think for a realistic piece and realistic standpoint, if it's still a council budget priority, um, and people have an interest in continuing to expand, we should be thinking, I would just share like from our end, we're looking into just what it looks like, um, to continue to add to the capacity of the ca of the council staff. I think a perfect example of this is like uh, right now in the process of discussing what a budget amendment looks like and we are in communication um, right? But then it's like, oh well, is our chief budget officer going to be drafting the budget amendment or is there um assistance that can happen? Usually that would go through the city attorney's office, but are they responding? And so there's questions and I think just gets in the technicality of where I think when I heard this conversation back at the beginning of the year, a lot of the interest truly lies in getting you know not having our policy stalled, not having our um you know our legal advice stalled, not kind of pushing up against the deadlines and the timelines to make changes to policies or to ordinances to administrative codes to the budget process. um and not necessarily having to place the city attorney's office in a role where they have to work against well the city attorney offices have to work against the administration. So I think that there's a lot here but just what we have a lot of things within our power right now. So it would just open that up for future discussion. >> Thanks Miss Johnson. I agree. And I one one thing that I'd be interested to know the goal here of course is to try to get more capacity and also to equalize the council's power a little bit. Um so when those conflicts come up it is feels like the council has a little bit more of a say. Um I'd be curious of the 27 cities where the mayor's appoint and the council confirms. I know I'd learned that in Minneapolis at one point anyway, while the mayor appointed department directors and the council confirmed them, I believe at some regularity, maybe every year, every two years, the department directors had to come back and be reconfirmed by the council, which gives obviously the council a different level of influence um than just appointing and confirming forever. Um, so it not maybe right now unless you know off the top of your head, but I'd be interested to know there's sort of a a subset of these 27 that relates to frequency of reconfirmation. Um, doesn't get to capacity, but does get a little bit to power. Um, and with that, I'm going to not let you answer right now. Um, but maybe you can answer me and Miss Coleman together. Going to Miss Coleman. >> Mine's a comment, not a question, so you should answer. >> Okay. Sorry to answer. >> I think um I I'm not sure about the Minneapolis timing for the city attorney's office. they didn't dive into the like exact specifics of their own situation. Um I will note that in my history of previous charters we had until March to appoint uh the corporation council under the previous uh aldermanic ward based system. So it wasn't that the p the council gets sworn in and then there would be a a joint meeting of the organizing board to then you know after name had been submitted >> um after a couple months. So there had been there's in past practice there's been some time built in to allow for more of a a deliberative appointment process. But again within the strong mayor system you know this is just one of many departments that the mayor generally has the wide latitude and custom and practice to appoint who they see fit as the director. >> Right. >> Thank you Miss Coleman. >> Thank you and thanks for bringing this presentation today. Uh Council Member Johnson and Mr. Gfield. really I think that this is super interesting and there are so many questions here that I would love to explore more in depth. I think to my mind really the foundational question is what obstacles are we trying to solve for um with any potential change and that's I think come up in council member Johnson and council president Akre you know there are capacity questions that have certainly come up there's sort of questions about being on an equal footing with the mayor there's I I think there are a lot of different things that we could identify even just from the last year where there have been touch points or frustrations and the for the two potential pathways via just amending the admin code versus the two potential paths by a charter change to me address very different could potentially address very different underlying challenges. Um, and I really appreciate I think what I heard council member Johnson saying which is that these are not mutually exclusive conversations about next year's budget, the budget the year after that can be had completely independently or certainly in complement or in conjunction with uh conversations about bigger structural changes. But just to me that that is sort of I think grounding ourselves in what do we want to look different before identifying the solutions feels really important and like something that I'd love to continue having that conversation miss Coleman. Well, with 7 seconds left on the clock and no hands, um I think we will leave it there. I want to thank again, Miss Johnson, for keeping this going and reminding us of things that sometimes we bring up things that are really burning issues at the budget retreat and then we all kind of forget about them and this is a burning issue and it has been for a long time. So, thank you for your diligence and follow through and for everyone's comments today and Mr. Greenfield for your work. >> I'm available for any follow-up questions. You know, I didn't get to a lot of this presentation, but there's a lot in here. So, >> thank you, >> Pat. I'm open. >> One of the advantages of having brought on as chief policy officer, thank you so much for your work. And with that, we are ajourned. >> [music] [music]