[music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music]Heat. Heat. [music] Heat. Heat.[music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music] Heat. Heat. >> [music] [music] [music] >> Hey, [music] hey, hey. >> [music] [music] >> Hey [music] [music]everybody. >> [music] [music] [music] [music]>> Heat. Heat. [music] Heat. [music] [music] Heat. [music] >> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music] >> [music] >> St. Paul City Council Policy Committeeto order. Roll call, please. >> Council member Buouie,>> here. >> Council President Ner>> here. >> Council member Jo>> here. >> Council member Coleman>> here. >> Council member Kim.>> Council member Yang >> here. Council member Johnson>> here. >> Seeing six present, one absent.>> Great. Welcome everyone. Uh thanks for joining us for our policy committeemeeting today. We have two exciting topics on our agenda and the first isour transit oriented development city/H asset scan. All of those words are goingto start to mean more and more to us over the course of the next 45 minutes.Excited to welcome up Mr. Bruce Angelrect um to introduce our otherspeaker and also himself and our topic. Welcome.>> Thank you very much. Good afternoon, Council President Naker and councilmembers. [clears throat] Bruce Angelre from the Office of Financial Services,Real Estate Section. I want to thank you for the opportunity to share informationabout the city's transitoriented development um asset scan project, whichis funded through an $800,000 grant from the US Department of Transportation andis being administered by OFS Real Estate. The city received the grant inlate 2025 that allowed us to hire our consultant for the project, HRNAAdvisors. And I'll say more about uh Erin in a moment. Along with theleadership and support of the administration, we've taken someimportant steps to examine select city-owned and HAowned properties forpossible redevelopment for housing or commercial uses. We're here today totalk about the focus of the grant, the progress of our work so far, and wherewe see things heading. And we want to ask for your feedback on what we'representing, and what ideas or advice you may have on how best to guide the studyprocess to respond to the development needs of St. Paul. I know our time hereis short, so I'll turn things over to Erin Longh, a principal with HRNAAdvisors, who will walk us through a brief slide deck and then facilitatesome discussion at the end and a few specific questions of the councilmembers. Thank you again, Eric. >> Welcome up. And I misspoke. We only have30 minutes, so I think it will probably be best, as you said, Mr. Angelre, tolet you go through your slides unless there's burning questions and then takeour questions at the end. >> Perfect. Thank you. Hi everyone. I'mErin Lonoff. I'm a partner with HRNA Adviserss. Um, I'm based here in theTwin Cities. HRNA is a real estate, economic development, and public policyconsulting firm. Um, and we've been really excited to get to work with thecity on this grant application, on this grant. Um, so I'm going to walk throughjust a couple of slides and then we'll go into discussion after this. Um, so asBruce was explaining and describing, um, we are working with the city. Um HRNA isthe prime consultant and we are joined by platform and formula as as part ofour team um in uh completing this work. Um HRNA just for a little bit ofbackground we work nationally um with cities um internationally and nationallyum with a focus on real estate advisory and how to pair real estate with publicpolicy goals. Um, nationally, we've been working with a number of communitieswith these IFAC grants as they think about how to best leverage theircity-owned assets. And I'll talk a little bit more about that IFAC grantum, and this process. Locally, we've gotten to work with the city of St. Paulon a number of initiatives, most recently with the city'santi-displacement and wealth building strategy a couple years ago. Um, I'vealso gotten to work with um, Metroransit in the city on the central station blockfeasibility analysis. for both of those. Again, sort of going back to this coremission of how do you pair real estate with public policy mission goals and howdo you think about these sort of issues holistically around the economics of ofpublic policy and mission. Um so the IFAC program this is a US DOTuh program with the goal of uh increasing the use of publicly ownedland across the country um in to corridors. So the purpose of thisprogram is to unlock asset value in cities to accelerate the delivery ofredevelopment of publicly owned assets to reduce public costs associated withthat redevelopment and to build local capacity for redevelopment onunderutilized land. All of this is really focused on transit corridors. Soplaces land near um fixed corridor uh so light rail and and BRT and and andbusways. Um the other goal of this program is to enhance the usage ofTIFFIA um for redevelopment in in station areas.>> What is TIPIA? Um, oh my goodness, the acronym. It is a finance program throughthe US DOT that is has traditionally been used to help fund infrastructure,but has increasingly been looked to and the program has shifted over the years,but has increasingly been looked to to support private vertical development andtrans transit areas. To date, most 99% of the work has been on infrastructureinvestment, but there is a coalition of folks that are trying to get moreprivate development using um lowcost financing.>> Thank you. >> Um so the goal of this work is sort offour key areas. Um one is a comprehensive look at the city's assets.So what are holistically what does the HR and what does the city own? um as away to really understand what is the the sort of broad landscape of public landownership in the city of St. Paul. Um we are also going to be working on andthinking about what are the priorities for redevelopment and the use of cityland. What are those pathways for redevelopment and given this marketcontext and given public policy goals, how do you get development to happen onthis land? um and where we want it and what kind of development and um sort ofwhat are the resources needed to to build up that partnership forredevelopment on these sites. The way that we go about this process isin six sort of key areas and and um steps. First, we start with what is thevision for the use of public land for a city and what are those goals that youare trying to achieve? what are those broader public policy goals that youhave as a city and how can you use your land assets to help achieve some ofthose goals? Um, we then evaluate the assets. What is the landscape ofpublicly owned land in your city and how does that start to bubble up potentialopportunities for for realizing some of these goals? We start to prioritizethose opportunities around um what are this what are the sort of the site'sreadiness for redevelopment? How do these align with financing and missiongoals or do these align with federal requirements and broader localgovernment requirements and goals? This includes stakeholder engagement as wellum both with with the development community around what is possible fordelivery with private real estate but also around sort of missiondriven andcommunity um community goals. So, what are those um how can we use these landthese land assets to align with other um policy goals that that communitystakeholders and you all have? We're going to be looking at planning andfeasibility analysis as well. also looking at and this is what we're goingto be working with formula architects on is once we've narrowed in on specificsites what can physically fit on that site from a building perspective whatleads what can be part of sort of the good urban design of that and then whatis the development feasibility what does it look like from a development costperspective and return to the city and return to to a developer and thenfinally what is that imple implementation path that that will bringthat site from concept design all the way forward to an RF RFP and uhconstruction with a developer. So, here's where we are right now. Wekicked off our work in June um and had an early initial visioning session withdepartment heads and the mayor where we really were sort of it was a listeningsession of what are some of the challenges that you as departments arefacing? What are the opportunities that you see with publicly owned land? um andwhat are some of the priorities based on sort of this broader city context thatwe should be thinking about as a way that um city land may support. Um so weare here today to sort of show you some of what we've analyzed around the 800owned sites and just a broad landscape and some of the early sort of bubblingup priorities and goals. where we're headed is to start to narrow those 800sites into potentially 10 priority sites and then ultimately three sites thatwill go into that sort of concept design feasibility analysis.So our kickoff discussions in late June surfaced three guiding principles forthis work and this is one of the things that I want to have a discussion aroundand and sort of hear your perspectives particularly from your constitu sort ofas you think about your constituents. Um so three things. So one is um usingpublicly owned land to strengthen the city's fiscal position. So identifyingthe most significant opportunities to leverage public assets to generaterevenue for the city and to help mitigate costs. Two is to use publiclyowned land to support equitable growth in the city. So assessing how the citycould best leverage publicly owned land assets to makes uh St. Paul a moreequitable place for communities or for for residents. And third is to positionthe city as a development partner. So demonstrate how the city government canbe proactive and strategic around economic development and a catalyst forgrowth and investment with um amongst developers and and the businesscommunity. A quick overview of the land assets thatwe've been seeing. So um today the city of St. Paul um with the HR control alittle over 800 sites uh across the city. Um, and what you can see in thismap is prim the larger sites are in blue that you can see a little bit easier andI'll show you why in a second. But those larger sites, city controlled sites areblue and then there's about a little over 200 sites that are controlled bythe HR. Those tend to be much smaller sites because those are single familyoftentimes single family sort of parcels. Um, so those are shown aslittle specks on this map in red. When we look at the land ownership, wesee a wide range of site sizes. The plurality of sites are under an eighthof an acre in the city. Um, so that's one way of sort of saying that you ownyou control a lot of land, but they're on smaller sites than, you know, youdon't you're not necessarily sitting on a ton of 5 acre parcels that are justwaiting to be redeveloped. There are 107 um sites that are larger than 5 acres,but I'll note that you what you can see in this bar chart is that 92 of those107 are in fact parkland. So, we're not suggesting that suddenly the city'sparks are all going to be redeveloped into real estate. The the there I guesswhat I'm trying to convey here is there's nuance into the city's assets.There are going to be many things uh publicly owned assets and city land thatshould not be touched for redevelopment, but there may be opportunities of thingslike a parking lot that is never used or a vacant parcel that is never going tobe developed into a parking lot or or sorry a park or a library that may be anopportunity for redevelopment. Um the other part of this is you all area city. You are not a private developer. And so your perspective around how touse your land is is unique. It is different than how a a profit-drivendeveloper thinks about its land. And so oftentimes when we work with cities,we're really helping them to think about sort of this these three competing ideassort of um and how they they think about their real estate decision-m. So it isaround mission. So because you are a city, you get to have and you shouldhave a perspective on around the mission of of your publicly owned land. So whatdoes success look like with the usage of your land? Is this around affordablehousing targets? This is about equity outcomes. This is about a certain kindof job creation happening on your land. Um this then is also sort of looking attiming. So what is the urgency of of this land? Is this something that youcan be patient on to wait for a market shift or um is this something that youneed to move on quickly because it's going to help to sort of transform a aneighborhood in a way that you are you are aiming towards? Um and what are youraspirations with revenue and what are your needs as a as a city? um does theredevelopment of a specific site need to have direct um revenue implications foryou all or can there be indirect revenue which I'll talk about in a second righthere actually. So um the other piece of and sort of the unique feature of youall being a public entity in real estate is that you can define what you mean byvalue creation and return on investment. So there are I would describe sort offour benefits or kinds of value that are created as a result of real estatedevelopment on city- owned land. One is through val land value. So what is thedirect return that you as a city get on the land and that can be through aground lease or sale and sort of the cash infusion that comes to the city asa result of that development. There are direct fiscal benefits that come fromdevelopment um from the project that gets built on that land. So things likeproperty taxes from the future building, um sales taxes as a result of the newresidents that live in that building or business taxes from the company that'snow um sitting in that on that site in that new building. Um there are indirectbenefits that are created from from development. So you suddenly have now 50new residents that are living in your city and are spending money in theeconomy. They are working in your city. um which create other kinds of benefitsthat you all want to see as a city. Um and then there's quality of lifebenefits that come from redevelopment. So maybe you have a site that has therehasn't been a lot of market movement in an area, but now you get redevelopmentin this area and it starts to really sort of shift the quality of life andthe urban design in this area and um and creates new and different kinds ofopportunities for residents. Um, and I'll I'll just sort of end thatthis is part of the discussion around how do you define um value as a city andwhat are you trying to achieve with your publicly owned assets. Some cities arereally focused by because of their policy mission, their policy goals aswell as some state mandates around having a very direct fiscal or sorrydirect value sort of revenue uh return from their land. And sort of at theother end of this, some are using their land to catalyze other kinds of growthgrowth and really focused on those indirect benefits and that quality oflife. And there's sort of a whole spectrum in between of of where you mayland. So I'm going to pause. We can go intoquestions and discussion. I've got some questions for you all, but I'll pausefor questions from you first. >> Great. Well, thank you so much for thisum comprehensive presentation and for saving us plenty of time for questionsand discussion. And this is exactly the point of policy committee is to havediscussion based on these types of policy priorities. So thank you forraising those very clearly in your questions. One just foundational pointof information before we open it up. I'm curious. You talked about howtransoriented development was the was the guiding star of this project. Um butI'm assuming that all the sites you're identifying are not necessarily ontransit corridors. So the So I'm wondering how the the transit orientedpart of this plays in um to how you're answering these questions and also howyou're going to end up identifying those 10 and then those three high prioritysites. >> Yeah. So I would think of this as sortof two different outputs. One is going to be uh an analysis of all of the city-owned and controlled land um sort of irrespective of transit but just here isall the land you own and here is what it comprises of you know as we showed therea huge percentage of the acres in your city are parks right um because of thegrants coming from US DOT as we dive deeper into site analysis andredevelopment opportunities those three sites, those 10 prioritysites and those three sites that we ultimately analyze around planning andfeasibility, those have to be transit oriented sites because of the grant. Um,but it does not mean that I guess what what I'm going to say is that thosethree sites are going to be things that we would recommend as higher prioritiesfor redevelopment, but there's going to be a longer list of assets that you allcan consider for redevelopment sort of separate from this process. Andultimately, I would think about sort of the outputs of this study as not just amoment in time of, you know, in 2026, these are our priorities, but insteadthink about this as maybe a 10-year sort of time horizon of each year, these aresort of the sites that we think we'd like to prioritize year-over-year forredevelopment. Near-term will be transit, longer term can be other sitesfor you all. >> Thank you. Questions, answers, MissColeman. >> Thank you, and thank you so much forthis presentation. Um, super interesting. I am just curious if youcould share a little bit more about what the next sort of now throughMarch looks like. Um what that engagement will look like, whatprogramming will be done etc.>> Yeah. So where we are right now is working quickly from going from that 800to those 10 sites. And one of the things that istricky about this, I'm going to be just a little bit of a preview, is that thosethree priorities that I talked about around um improving the city's fiscalposition around equity and around sort of demonstrating the city as a partnerin business. Those don't necessarily result in the same top 10 prioritiessites. And so what we're trying to get to right now is a list of 10 sites thatwe think sort of start to encompass those three goals, but there's going tobe some mixing and matching across those. Um, and so what that looks likeis over the next few weeks we're trying to get to 10 sites and then over toum the end of the year we're going to start to winnow down and try to get usdown to three sites. And in terms of engagement, we're still mapping outexactly what that looks like. This is not going to be a large broad publicengagement process, but there's going to be sort of targeted stakeholderengagement that I think looks like engagement with you all. Um it lookslike engagement possibly with some district councils um and somestakeholder groups um that sort of are more familiar with the real estatemarket and what as a way to sort of uh test which sites may be higherpriorities based on market conditions. to that point that you just made aboutthose three different priorities maybe not leading to the same list of 10. UmI'm wondering if they could be seen more as a way of winnowing from the 800. Sofor example I would say that strengthening thecity's fiscal position would be the top value. Um and I assume that that wouldlend you lead you to I don't know a couple hundred sites probably. And thenI would say among those sites we should prioritize those that support equitablegrowth. So among equals we should be making sure we're investing equallyequitably in different areas of the city. Umpersonally I think the city can be positioned as a development partner withlots of different activities and we should be doing that all the time inevery single um permit or license application we get every time we get aconstituent question. Um, so I that one to me seems like it could just be aumbrella statement, but at least the other two seem like they could belayered rather than mutually exclusive. >> Yep. I I agree.>> Other thoughts or I guess responses to the questions that are being posed to usfrom my colleagues? Curious what people think.>> Miss Louie. >> Yes. Thank you, President Eker. Um, Ijust have a question particularly around the I'm pulling up the slide here. Itwas a timeline. Um I think it's slide number 10 of just like the projectoverview. Can you um speak a little bit more to the inter agency workshops andthen I see you have cited there ward one and ward two and you could speak to likewhat does that actually entail um in terms of like workshops? Is this likejust a geographic area that you focused on? just trying to learn more about umhow the workshops were connected to those two specific wards.>> So W1 and W2 actually indicate workshop one and workshop 2. It's just not clear.[laughter] That's all simple. Um so we had>> I didn't mind it. I was asking I don't see W four to me.>> No, it's not clear there at all. So our we had we had a first inter agencyworkshop really focused on here are some of the sites that are surfacing up andwe needed agency the different department heads to take a look at thoseand start to actually pull some sites out where they go oh yes it's bubbled upto the top because it's a large site but actually there's a huge parking garagehere and that is not a redevelopment opportunity. Um so that's what we'reworking on right now is sort of um our model has based on those prioritieswe've run a couple of different scenarios around ways to look at how toprioritize sites. Um but there is a human element that has tohappen for for that. So that's what's going on right now and that's whatworkshop 2 is going to be focusing. Workshop one was here's our first passat this list and then we've been having one-on-one conversations withdepartments. workshop 2 is going to start to finalize maybe like a list of20 as we get head towards 10. >> And just a followup um thank you so muchfor that clarity. It's funny how I jumped to that conclusion.>> Nope, that's really fair given your perspective.>> Yeah, but uh I as I go back here, I don't know if it's if you stated it umbut can you list all of the different type of assets um that you're assessingfor? Because when you hear city assets, there's, you know, like every departmenthas assets. Are you looking at like police like, um, you know, capitalassets, uh, library assets, rec centers, all the above? If you could just sharewhat the scope is. >> Yep. For these 800 sites, everything thecity owns is on that list. So, including where we are right now. So, we do notthink this is a redevelopment opportunity. And that's what we're startwe're exciting to scrub out is there are a lot of things that the city owns thatreally are not opportunities for redevelopment that like parks,libraries, fire stations, your city hall. Those are publicly owned assetsthat are part of this 800 list that needed to get taken out.>> Okay. Thanks for the clarity on that. It seemed like we had so much land, butprobably including like this building and other sites. Yeah. Um, Miss Johnson,>> thank you, Council President. And yeah, I kind of laughed at the W1, W2 as well,but then I was like, well, maybe that isn't what I think of when I think oflike awards. Um, I guess I just have a question. Uh, I'm looking at the timeframe and I'm looking at the identification of 10 of narrowing itdown to the 10 priority sites and I'm I represent the east side of St. Paul, soI represented W 7. um on the map right you'll see blue and and red in our areabut when it comes to a lot of the the transit pieces because a lot of the eastside is transit expansive. I am curious just around like um at least for thesake of your scale how you took that into account being that like you knowone of the biggest driving inequities for a lot of our communities um but inparticular on the east side we are actively trying to make it more transitaccessible and so there's like you know the transit orientoriented neighborhood but like did that factor into where the 10 were going tobe selected? >> Yeah. So I guess I would think about itin two ways. So one is in this first phase of this what we are producing forthe city is a comprehensive list of here are some here's a sort of a holisticview of potential redevelopment opportunities. And I'll say from the HRperspective I think the HR has a very good perspective on what thoseredevelopment opportunities are because of the nature of their work day in andday out. Um, as it relates to the 10 and the three priority sites, because of theconstraints of this particular grant, the more detailed analysis that we dohas to be for a TOD site, but it can be for a planned route as well. So, thatmay help with the east side um perspective of this. And I I believe andmy colleagues would be kicking me right now as they watch this on YouTube. Ibelieve it's a half mile from a transit area which actually encompasses quite abit of area in um the city of St. Paul. >> Okay. And as a as a followup then um youknow I think just to some of the questions I guess like the discussionquestion guidance of just like what could um success look like. Um I I trulygenuinely think how important it is when we're setting like uh fiveyear 10y yeargoals is that our community taxpayers can see that development and investmentknowing that comes what comes along with the identification of priority sitesoften is funding and resources and redevelopment that goes into thecommunity and in some of our places which I'm sure you're seeing in the 800properties right we have like high concentration of city or HA land thatwe've owned maybe. Um, and I would hope that you also take into account like theamount of time that we've owned it. Um, the whether or not it's like a lot orlike the vacancy pieces of it of just like if it's a building structure thatwe just own but don't operate and it's just a parking lot or it's just a this.I hope that that's like brought into the analysis in some place. So that piece ofrevitalization in all the neighborhoods are important at least from myperspective. Um, when it comes to just what I would perceive as what weidentify as a city, I think one of the things we've done really well is likewhen we have a program that we've invested funding in or um investedresources in, it's been a lot of the times throughout the city. Like there'sbeen a touch somewhere throughout multiple different communities. Um, andyou may hear that from your engagement pieces and from constituents, but a lotof folks um, in my neighborhood will talk about wanting to continue to seethat city investment. Um, and so sometimes even in a in a um when we'relooking at the grant and some of the some of the ways to make it work, Ican't express how much of an importance it is to um think of ways that we can uhredevelop land that we've really owned occupied for a while and maybe alwaysintended to redevelop but just haven't gotten around to it. That's currentlywhat I'm experiencing with the Hams Brewery redevelopment in W 7. like it'sone of the larger pieces of H own land that we've owned, but we've owned it forover 20 years. And so there's just like a space or a staple that in some of ourcommunities that people want to see something happen to it. I would I'm notsure where that falls under the priority pieces, but the length of time and whatit is, how big it is, all matter. Um, but I think also just so folks cancontinue to see the city entity responding to all communities, it wouldbe great to see it geographically spread as well. Thanks, Miss Johnson. We'regonna I noticed you were taking notes. We're going to move straight to MissColeman for our final word on the subject because then we do have to moveon. So, >> I'll just say really quickly, I stronglyagree with everything that Council Member Johnson just shared. And I thinkthe other piece of it that would be really valuable is thinking about whatis the potential to catalyze entire neighborhoods. Obviously, you know,looking parcel by parcel is great and important, but understanding what couldinvestment of X nature look like for the broader community that is served by thisarea and how might it lead to other creative ways about of thinking aboutland use in this space is something that's I think would be really valuable,especially for some of some of our neighborhoods in our city that just goyears and years and years without seeing that type of investment.>> Thank you so much to all my colleagues. I know this time goes by super fast. Didyou have any quick closing words for us? And I know that we'll be seeing youagain in May 27 and then none of us are going anywhere um between now and then.Um so would love to continue engaging with you, but if you have any final>> No, thank you for your time. This has been wonderful. And if you think ofanything else, please reach out through Bruce. Um we're happy to yeah continuethe conversation. >> Really looking forward to seeing theresults. Thank you for your partnership. And with that, we will gently pivot toour next topic, which is the tobacco price minimum increase presentation. Wewill welcome our friends from Answer. I'll let them introduce themselves. Um,grateful for such a large group of folks.Come on up. >> And as you're coming up, I want to thankCouncil Vice President Yang for bringing this item to our attention and ask herif she wants to introduce the topic. >> Thank you, Council President. I want tosay thank you to you as well for putting this onto our agenda, Pame Requaz. Iwant to give a big thanks to our leaders and representatives from Answer um ourassociation for non-smokers Minnesota for being here. I'm really excited forthe council to get a chance to hear about um your ask for us to update ourordinance around tobacco and minimum pricing. I know um you know you all havejust been really um key to the city's efforts around protect protecting ourneighbors and community members when it comes to tobacco usage and our useespecially. So I wanted to really commend you for that work and a bigshout out to Jeannie Wagum and Chris Smith who have been really great leadersand point people from the association itself.>> Thank you Jeannie Wagum from the Association for Non-Smokers and this ismy first time here since the wonderful murals changed. So>> Oh >> I know. I know. Um>> you need to come more often. >> I I do need to come more often.Absolutely. Anyway, uh we have a number of people who are going to be talkingtoday, but I'd like to kick it off by just pointing out uh and who's going tohelp me advance this? Would you advance? >> You can. >> Tim, are you able to help advance ourchap? >> There we just arrow keys.>> There we go. Okay. Um Answer doesn't do anything alone. We do it with communitypartners and these are the organizations that have actually said we support thiswork this particular project. We're on board for this and some of them willhave sent letters or will send letters. Some of them will show up but some ofthem will will have signed on to this and say this is important to our thecommunity that we represent and we would encourage the council to proceed withthis. Um, oops. Answer knows that no one thing does itall. We can work on price. We can work on advertising. We can work on cleanindoor air. But it's sort of the Swiss cheese model. You you you line things upand a lot of things come together to help kids not become smokers or tobaccousers ever and to help adults who are already smokers quit. So, we're heretoday about price, but we'll be back about other things because this isn't aone thing does it all. This is one step in a in a larger process. And to let youknow how long this process is, in 1979, which I suspect maybe for some of youwere born, uh we were working on on tobacco in this community. And St. Paulhas a lot of firsts under its belt. We were one of the firsts to prohibit thesale of tobacco from vending machines. We were one of the first to set aminimum price on little cigars. And I'm going to pass these around. Do youbelieve it? Two cigars for 99 cents. Um and St. Paul had the courage to saythat's not okay here. Uh that this is clearly aimed at young people and we'renot going to encourage that. uh in 1986 these workplaces became smoke-free. Canyou imagine? It was a time when people smoked in this room. People smoked intheir offices. So we have been working with the city from uh for many many manyyears and some of the work we've done has aimed at helping adults live inclean indoor air spaces or work in clean air spaces. And some of our work hasbeen about helping kids never become smokers. And that's the big thing we'reworking on with this particular ordinance. Uh during CO uh the citycouncil passed a minimum price on cigarettes and chewing tobacco. Wecouldn't quite figure out how to deal with uh vapes because they came in suchdifferent sizes and they were just there was just so much variety. We couldn'tfigure out how to do a minimum price on them. We knew it needed to be done, butwe said, "Let's go with what we understand, that was cigarettes andchewing tobacco, which comes in standardsiz packages." Um, there weren'tpouches back then. City of St. Paul was, I think, the first city in the countryto set a minimum price on these products, and it has worked well.But we've had a little inflation since then. and some answer volunteers,including some of the young people who are here today, went out and checked theprices. We found that the minimum price on cigarettes in St. Paul is $10. Andalmost nobody sells them for that low a price now. The average price that wefound was much, much higher than that. And we looked at the average price onthe little nicotine pouches that people are using now, and they were about 65cents a pouch. We can't set a minimum price on thecontainer on pouches because they come in different sizes. Some containerscontain 15, 20, 25, or maybe even a hundred. So, we're proposing a minimumprice of a dollar per pouch. So, it doesn't matter what size the containeris. And we're proposing $15 as the minimum price on cigarettes. Uh, andcity of Minneapolis put a minimum price on vapes at $25. and we're proposingthat for St. Paul. Also, there's one first in this ordinance and that's thepouches. No one so far has put a minimum price on pouches. Although on Tuesdaynight of next week, City of Crystal will be looking at that as one of theiroptions. So, that's what we are working on and I'm going to turn it over to ouryoung people. >> Welcome.>> Thank you for having us. Good afternoon, St. Paul policy committee. My name isShirlay and I'm a constituent of Ward 1 and I'm here with Naan who's aconstituent of Ward 5 representing Wash Escapes to Vape or WTV a youth advocacygroup supported by answer through Washington technology magnet school herein St. Paul. Yes, as Charlay has said, RET TV is a group of young leaders whohave experience or seeing the consequences of commercial flavoredtobacos where the companies intentionally targets young youth withflavor with fruity flavors. Our goal is to increase the minimum price oncigarettes and put a minimum price on vapes and pouches because increasing theprice is one of on is one of the best strategy to get people to smoke, toquit, and to ensure young people to never start.But during the summer, we participated in several community events with theAssociation for Non-Smokers um where where we talked to um community membersabout the policy we have. and we collected over 109 postcards. Not onlydid parents and adults were able to participate, but kids also had a chanceto be included by putting a bead in the jar for whether they agreed or not tothe proposed policy. What stood out to me was how supportive the community wasand how willing they were uh and how willing they were to help make adifference. Nowadays, nicotine pouches have rapidly increased in popularityamongst young people. Nicotine pouches. Nicotine pouches are small flavorpackage containing nicotine and sometimes flavoring. These nicotinepouches are placed between the lips and gums. Here's the nicotine pouches.And the saliva dissolve the ingredients and enters the bloodstream. Some of someeven puts them in shoes where sweat where sweat would dissolve theingredients and absorb through the skin. Nicotine pouches are often marketed as asafer or harm reduction alternative to other tobacco products. But we shouldask who is promoting that message. The same tobacco industry that has profitedfrom creating and selling addictive nicotine products. Calling theseproducts harm reduction can make them seem harmless, especially to youngpeople while still introducing a new generation to nicotine addiction. Weshould be c cautious about letting an industry that profits from nicotineaddiction define what harm reduction means.Health risk that nicotine cause are alternating the brain chemistry andcreating a physical and mental and mental dependence learn leading to harmthe developing brain of young adults and teens affecting focus memory and impulsecontrol. It also damages the gum causing inflammation, irritation, and recedinggum that exposes tooth roots. Big companies and brands like Zin, Veil,Rogue, Free, Lucy, and On target young youth because they know how easily youthare influenced. Bright colors and different flavors are meant to attractkids and keep them hooked. Nicotine pouches typically cost between two to $6per can, and they contain about 15 to 20 pouches. Kids are buying these addictiveproducts for such a cheap price at such a high risk. To stop this fromhappening, we suggest putting a minimum price of nicotine pouches to $1 perpouch. This is a small act with great benefits. Thank you.>> Thank you for Thank you for having us. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Uh the Chris Smith Lower Town uhI've been resident for about 14 years now. And um so why now? Uh the um I I'dlike to just point out that um kind of skip ahead here. City ofMinneapolis um in 2025uh set the minimum price for vapes to $25.And um in that process um so as Jeannie pointed out um St. Paul has always kindof led the way and um they actually in Minneapolis like the idea of um notredeeming coupons and also setting minimum higher minimum prices. However,their health department determined that St. Paul's uh minimum price of $10 for apack of cigarettes was ineffective. And so um from that this is how we ended uphere or why we're here now. And um so the but in addition to that there weretwo council members uh council member Chudri and council member Cashman whoare uh millennials and they said that you know we always knew that smokingcigarettes was bad for us. So, but we're we're like the smoke-free generation,but um uh now we're being targeted by vapes. Our generation is being targetedby by vapes. And so, we want to set a minimum price for vapes. And uh theminimum price uh that they the health department came up with was also um $25.Um and then the coupons and price promotions are relatively thesame as what we have here in St. Paul. Um and so the uh after this this changein 2025 um it's been effective. Uh so a majorityof uh retailers did in fact um follow the ordinance um 70%uh number of stores uh that don't redeem coupons. Um also um there's a majoritythat are that are not accepting. And then also um the number of instorepromotions has has been reduced. Um Minneapolis is not the first uh cityto have set a minimum price for vapes. Actually it was uh St. Anthony Villagewith the uh ordinance was passed unanimouslyum with little opposition from the industryand and as our student leaders pointed out that they attended a number ofcommunity events um total of uh signed postcards from constituents uh 109 umbut really the conversations were carried out by our student leaders andum had one-on-one convers conversations with their peers but also uh parentsthat are also learning about the pressures that their children are facingfrom the tobacco industry. Um and with the resolution we have over uh Geniealready pointed this out but we have over 20 uh community organizations,faith communities um even uh um uh organizations that are um across theriver in Minneapolis that also support uh faith communities also in Minneapolissupport uh this ordinance as well. So uh here we are and uh any questions?We'll take any questions. Thank you so much for the presentation. Especiallythank you to our young leaders for being here. Really appreciate the informationyou shared. Looking to my colleagues to see what questions there might be. MissJo. Um thank you, council president. Thank you for being here. I just want tomake sure I understand how the um coupons and promotions worked in theMinneapolis ordinance. So, is it basically that um Minneapolis set theminimum price of $15 for for some products, 25 for other products, andthen the stores in Minneapolis like won't accept coupons essentially? Andthen does that mean stores in Minneapolis are also not allowed to havepromotions because those essentially reduce the cost or provide some type ofbenefit? Could you just >> Yeah, like anything that says like buyone get one free, that type of promotion is is not acceptable by the ordinance.So, um or it's not allowed. >> Okay. And then they don't accept anymanufacturers coupons or any types of Okay. Got it.>> Y >> that's already true in St. Paul.>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Right. So really this ordinance iskind of a refresh and as Jeannie pointed out um nicotine pouches is a new productby the industry and it's actually the fastest growing product that they haveum and they're really using it um as uh promoting it more as like a performanceenhancement for athletes and um it's trans it's nicotine is it'suh in the pouches is transermal so they can been athletes have been putting itin their shoes um while they're playing hockey or basketball or whatever sport.So they're they're really pushing it. I mean the the um the the concentration ofnicotine is very high also. Um and the industry really their point is well wewant even with the vapes high doses of nicotine to pe to keep people addicted.um they're learning that their idea around uh ecigarettes. So it was reallyin the 1980s when ecigarettes were being developed because the industry realizedthat their customers were trying to quit smoking. Uh they were smoking filteredcigarettes, light cigarettes, um which uh is in a way uh misleading saying thatthere's low tar in cigarettes. And so they figured, well, we'll we'll create auh something that can keep them addicted. So they uh promoted the ideaof vapes um as if it's uh water vapor and but actually we're finding out it'sa lot of chemicals and uh hazardous waste. So the um so now the industryrealizes millennials, Gen Z, now uh generation alpha are their next targetsand they're going to uh promote vapes and nicotine pouches to those agebrackets. >> I'm curious um first of all, I reallylike the Swiss cheese uh graphic. I think that really helps explain thedifferent layers of protection needed. I'm wondering if answer is to the pointthat the Minneapolis council members made about we all um many of us grew upknowing not to smoke or hearing not to smoke um but these new products are notsmoke. Um is is answer working with schools, school districts, maybe eventhe state on making sure that health education is updated if it isn't alreadyto be talking about the negative effects of nicotine on its own absent smoke. onequestion and my second question is given that this is an update of an ordinancewe have on the books mostly due due to a new product but also it sounds likelargely due to inflation um is there any downside to pegging our price toinflation much like we do with our minimum wage>> we're thrilled with that idea uh we actually had proposed that when thisoriginal ordinance was passed and uh there was discon comfort w withpegging it and not having it come back to the council. Although uh severalcouncil members were very keen to not have to revisit this every time there'sinflation. And so we actually have model language for you that has an a built-ininflator based on inflation and that is in the Minneapolis ordinance. So it'snot not groundbreaking. And related to what we're doing about kids, we're kindof small. We can't affect everybody, but we have uh several youth groups uh andthey do a tremendous amount of outreach within their own school and within thecommunity and they work on policy with us and they also work on policies andand administration within their own schools. Um if you talk to anyadolescent, they'll tell you this is a big problem for them. It's a big problemin the bathrooms. Sometimes they can't even get in. Uh there are safety issuesrelated to it. And we we have worked with the schools on developingapproaches that don't involve suspension. So alternative to suspensionprograms. Uh it's a huge problem and we will continue to work on that and we seethis as part and parcel. Making it making the products less accessible willhelp the schools too. >> Thank you. I see Miss Coleman.>> Thank you. Um thanks also for the presentation. As you all know, I'mreally supportive of this. I think this is an overdue update. I my So, with thatin mind, I think that this is necessary and good change. I'm just curious ifthere are um unexpected consequences that you all saw arise in Minneapolisonce they passed their ordinance or, you know, kind of what should we be on thelookout for to avoid any unintended negative consequences? thinking aboutimpact on small businesses, thinking about impactthat I might >> Well, in some ways, the good news isthat the money go the increase in in cash is not tax. So that the storethat's charging $10 now and charges $15 later may sell fewer products, butthey're making more money. The money goes into their pocket, not ours. Um,tobacco tax is kind of nice because the city or the county or the state couldbenefit from that money. uh but uh state law prohibits cities and counties fromdoing it. It can only be done at the state level. So the really the onlything we can do at the local level on price is the minimum price.Um no local no businesses uh testified against it when we did this back in 2020and 2020 and 21. There wasn't a single business that came. There was a littleconfusion about whether how the tobacco tax was applied and there were questionsabout that but there wasn't a single vendor that came and said don't make mecharge more for this product. Uh there's always a little discussion aboutcrossborder so people can go across the street and buy a somewhat cheaperproduct. Um but St. Paul has tended to be a leader on these things and theother communities typically follow. This time we're following St. Anthony on someof it and following Minneapolis on some of it.>> At least we're mostly following St. Anthony. I was glad to see that. Did youhave a followup? >> Great. Um, Vice President Yang.>> Thank you, Council President. I wanted to share to my colleagues that I um didstate my support of this to to answer and um I just really appreciate justeven getting to hear, you know, thoughts from all of you. I um also appreciatethe question for you councilman about basically like the business impact and Iknow in previous years when the council did work on this before there were somefolks who are like well they can just you know customers can just go across toanother city and buy their tobacco products there which you know I Iacknowledge yes they can do that. I personally don't have an issue with ourcity having less tobacco shops less liquor stores too. I mean, you all hearme talk a lot about Maryland and clearance where we have two of thosetypes of commercial stores right next to each other. Um, where, you know, it's itis a hot spot for crime and violence. And I've also even heard from our policedepartment about just the trends they see in crime and violence increasingwhen we have those sort that sort of presence um in our city. And so um I I'magain not concerned about that. For me, what is really grounding is exactly thethings that I heard from our youth leaders today. I'm just so impressed bythe the advocacy and the leadership from you all and the many team members thatyou have um organizing with you. I know at the table here and in our officialcity spaces, we've talked a lot about our values and just the importance of umnot only creating spaces but also making investments that are truly about ouryouth. And this is clearly a topic not only about public health, but about howwe tackle racism, classism in our communities that we see coming directlyfrom tobacco corporations that target our youth and folks of color. You know,it's how we how we tackle that. And so I'm again just really in awe of yourleadership and commend you all for your work including answer to and I know umfrom my understanding you all have resolution ordinance language thatyou've drafted and and shared with our department of safety and inspections umI've asked our staff to take a look at the language too and let um inform themabout my support for this and so um if we have the support for it I hope thatsometime um I don't know what timeline we're working that's something I wouldlook to you all for. Um, but I would say like the sooner we can approve this, thebetter, especially if we do have majority support for it. And so I wantedto again um name my support for that and thank you so much for your leadershiphere. Like St. Paul is a better city um and a stronger city when it comes topublic health because of your leadership.>> Thank you. And we're ready. We can do this now.>> Let's just do No, just kidding. Uh thank you, Vice President. Thank you so muchfor coming. We really appreciate the information. It sounds like there may besome legislation to follow coming from the vice president's office and itsounds like there is um there there's a consensus in support around this tablewhich is great to see. Um we will leave it there so we have some time totransition to our HA meeting. Thank you all again for joining us and we areadjourned. >> [music] >> Heat. [music] Heat. [music]Heat. Heat. [music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music] Heat. Heat. >> [music] >> Heat. Heat. >> [music] [music] [music]>> Hey, hey, hey. >> [music] [music]>> Down. [music]Hey. Hey. >> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music]>> Hey, [music]thank you. [music] >> [music] >> Please.>> Buoy here. Coleman >> here. Toast>> here. >> Kim Ner>> here. >> Yang.Chair Johnson >> here.>> Five present. Two absent. That being Commissioner Yang and Commissioner Kimand Commissioner Kim is excused. Item number one is a public hearing.PH26-254 resolution approving amendments to andauthorizing the reissuance of conduit multi multifamily housing revenue bondsand authorizing the preparation of necessary documents and materials inconnection with said amendments. 801 Mount Curve Boulevard, 2265 HillrestAvenue and 2285 Hillrest Avenue. Emma Norton, Restoring Waters and EllieFrancis Court Projects, District 15, Ward Three.>> Thank you so much for getting through that uh resolution title. Um this is apublic hearing where we have an opportunity to come in and have thepublic give comment. Each person gets two minutes at a time. So, at this time,I um will look to anyone who is here to give public comment. As everyone is rushing to the podium,no, I'm just kidding. Um we will take a motion from uh Vice Chair Jo to closethe public hearing and approve. All those in favor?>> I. >> All opposed?>> Six in favor, zero opposed. The public hearing is closed. The resolution isadopted. Item number two is a staff reportSR26-190 presentation on downtown vitality fundeconomic development recommendations. Well, I'm personally really excitedabout this milestone. I know that there's been a lot of communication incommunity as well and a lot of hard work that has been on the back end of thedowntown vitality fund. Um, and so I'm just excited about the staff report thatwe have coming in. And this will be the recommendations of uh the allocation andalso the feedback that has been given from the the application review process.So wanted to be able to hand it over to deputy excuse me director McMahon andthen you can uh pass the pass the the town over.>> Sure. Chair, commissioners, I'm also very excited for this one and happy towelcome Nick Wolf from the economic development team here to present anupdate on the downtown vitality fund as well as information on proposed actionthat will be before you at your next H meeting in two weeks. So, this is aneffort that's had a pretty quick turnaround with a lot ofbehindthe-scenes work and I appreciate everything the team has done to move itforward. Um, we know that vibrant downtowns provide economic benefitscitywide. investing in them helps all of our residents in our city, not just byproviding a strong tax base, but also opportunities for residents to live anddynamic places to gather and engage. So, I'm very excited for this presentationand thank you, Mr. Wolf. >> Thank you. Good afternoon,commissioners. My name is Nick Wolf. I'm a project manager in the economicdevelopment division of peed and I will uh as director McMahonmentioned I'll be presenting funding recommendations for the economicdevelopment portion of the downtown vitality fund. Okay. Sohere's the program background kind of a reminder of of how we got here. Uh backin February, this body approved the downtown vitality fund. There were $2million allocated for economic development projects, uh 3 million forhousing, and we are um funding recommendedrecommending funding projects that reflect uh the stated goals.Filling vacant commercial storefronts, investing in businesses looking to growin downtown St. hall, activating street level spaces, all uh adding vibrancy andinvestment in our downtown. Okay, these uh economic developmentdollars are utilized for three large buckets. Uh there's building capitalimprovements, equipment purchases, and public realm improvements.again, all with a focus on activating commercial spaces in our downtown.As far as the uh breakdown of the projects and funding amounts go,uh under $100,000 awards are structured as reimburseable grants, which issimilar to our STAR program. uh over $100,000 is structured as aforgivable loan, which I can get into a bit more later in the presentation. Andthose over $500,000, also structured as a forgivable loan, uhneed HRA approval, which is why I'm here today. Okay, so here's a list of the 10projects that were approved administratively.uh for uh economic development. In addition, there is funding for theAlliance Bank Center Skyway. So, we received60 interest forms yielding 35 eligible economic development projectsand 15 applications were received totaling over $4 million in asks.Uh these uh recommendations uh that you see support downtownbusinesses at various sizes, ownership structures,and investment levels to maximize the fund's impact and encompass the full 2million. >> Well, actually, let me one more pointnote. Um all of these projects here are under $100,000uh with the exception of ROM MIT which will be structured as a forgivable loan.Okay. Uh projects requesting 500,000 or more. Uh the Endicott Arcade at 134Fifth Street East uh was recommended to the St. HallDowntown Development Corporation and 428 Minnesota Street was recommendedto with Love Minnesota and I believe um I believe the awardees are with ustoday. So I see the with love team for sure. Thanks for coming. All right. Oh,and Dave as well. Thank you guys. Um the next slide is kind of a visualrepresentation of the project locations. Um there's a I think a nice distributionof funding throughout the downtown improvement district which was thedowntown funding geography that we use for this program. [snorts]Okay. The Endicott Arcade led by the Downtown DevelopmentCorporation. Uh we recommended $799,800 for facade improvements, criticalbuilding repairs, and stabilization to prepare this property for therestoration and return to market. [snorts] This is a one-story commercialbuilding that has been vacant for several years now. and its restoration.The preservation of the interior ground floor commercial opportunityuh will be a key contributor contributor to our downtown revitalization. 428 Minnesota Street led by With LoveMinnesota team. Uh we've recommended $682,200for renovation and activation of over 11,000 square ft of previously vacantfirstf flooror retail space at 428 Minnesota Street. With Love is anonprofit social enterprise engaged in economic development. They'll berenovating the existing vacant ground floor space into a fully activated civicdestination. The project will activate a vacant corridor,generate street level foot traffic, support local employment, and contributeto the long-term vitality of downtown St. Paul. Okay. As far as um [clears throat] termsgo, uh these are the uh projects receiving over $100,000 will be adeferred uh forgivable loan. Um loans will be forgiven assuming theawardees maintain operations in downtown St. Paul through the life of the loanand provide us uh an annual report at the end of every year. And we will besecuring these loans through a mortgage or UCC collateral uh filing on theproperty for the life of the loan. Okay. Again, in closing, we're seekingHR approval for the two downtown vitality fund recommendations outlinedin the presentation, and I understand formal approval will be coming um atyour next meeting on September 23rd. So, thank you for your timeavailable to answer questions. >> Thank you, Mr. Wolf. I will look toCommissioner Akre for her first question.>> Thanks, Chair Johnson. Um, this is really exciting. I want to thank you,Mr. Wolf, and the entire team for your hard work on this. Um, it downtown needsthis kind of infusion. And I think what sometimes happens is, um, governmentsannounce programs with lots of dollar signs and zeros behind the numbers andthen the dollars never actually move out the door. And what's happening here isthat we announced this program and um, a few months later we are getting thesedollars out the door to the businesses that need them. So, I think that'sreally noteworthy. Um, I also want to thank the Downtown DevelopmentCorporation and in particular Mr. Higgins because when we first conceivedof the Downtown Vitality Fund, I remember giving him a call and saying,"Hey, we're thinking about this program for downtown development. Um, what wouldyou recommend?" And at the time, we were thinking of it as exclusively a housingprogram. Um, and we ended up making it a $3 million housing program, a $2 millionum, business program. But that business component was only because Mr. Higginssaid, you know, I think it would be great to have some uh, business fundingas well. And I even would guess that the business dollars will go out the doormore quickly than the housing dollars. And as it turns out, we have flownthrough the business dollars. And I think we are still working on thehousing dollars. So that um recommendation was really uh wise andwell taken and I appreciate it. Um I I was curious if you could speak to twoquestions. One um how many of the projects that are being recommended forfunding, one of the goals was to fill vacant spaces downtown. There are alsoother goals like revitalizing and vibrancy etc for existing businesses.But how many of these um are filling a formerly vacant space? And thensecondly, is there a um an expectation or an agreement as to when the work hasto actually take place or once the dollars are out the door, is thattimeline somewhat not defined? >> Yeah, thank you. Um thank you,Commissioner Naker. Um, great question. Uh, your your first question regardingwhich one of these projects are going to be filling um, currently aspace that is vacant. Um, I I I think the one example that we're here that I'mhere today presenting is the 428 Minnesota Street. I mean, that is kindof the um penultimate 11,000 square ft uh activation that, you know, we'reexcited about here. Um some of these other as I'm just quickly kind of I'mreviewing the list here. Um one of them on in the market housebuilding that Owl Eye Art Collective, that's a a business that's relocating indowntown um to a new space that is currently vacant.Um the uh another one for the uh is going to be for the uh indoor uh farmersmarket for the St. Paul Growers Association.Um there's also an expansion of ROM mid is going to be expanding into a umadjacent space. Um so th those are the ones that are sortof uh jumping off this list immediately. Uh we're also supportingthe Avalon which um uh I I don't believe yet has opened. Umand that is a new um a new operator in downtown as well.Um so as as far as the timeline to finish these projects, you know, when weuh evaluated some of these um that was really one of the criteria and one thingwe heard from leadership is that we want projects that can get done that fitwithin the time frame and um uh so um that have a more of a near-termtime frame. So, uh I I think once we get these umagreements and executed um we are going to um I I think we can get undercontract uh relatively soon. I think within thenext 3 to 6 months I think would be um reasonable. I conservatively speaking.Um uh and I I a lot of these projects havetimelines that are either late 2026 or like Q1 Q2 2027.Um so >> thank you.>> That was a consideration of ours. >> All right. Thank you Mr. Wolf on thatclarification and also just that added context. Um, along that vein, could youalso talk about the large projects that were funded, I believe, at a 90%threshold and just how you came to that calculation and just overall like how wewere recommending this the total amount that we see here versus maybe what theymight have applied for. >> Yeah. Thank you, Chair Johnson. Yeah.Um, you know, we were working within theconstraints of the $2 million allocated and had over 4 million in ask. Um, so wewere not un we were not able to fund all of these projects at their uh preferredmaximum ask amount. Uh it took a lot of um looking at thebudget, looking at scopes of work and really looking hard at our eligibilitycriteria. Um you know, we program alignment, we uh evaluated uhprojects based on does it activate the street level, does it support downtownvibrancy, does it fill a vacancy, is there a public realm contribution?And um you know I I I think by funding at around you know uh a largepercentage of the project we're able to sort of leverage some private dollars aswell um and and maybe make that 2 million that was allocated for economicdevelopment go a bit further. So instead of six or six or seven projects fundedat 100%, you know, we did a couple of the larger ones at 90%.>> With the hopes that um uh some of these larger projects couldcould leverage some private investment to get these done.>> Thank you. >> And I'd be happy to go over uh projectby project to uh in the future um could get that information over to you.>> Thank you, Mr. Wolf. Uh, Coun uh, Commissioner Yang and then we'll goCommissioner Coleman as well. >> Thanks, Chair Johnson. Um, I echo yoursentiments on the excitement here, Commissioner Nger. This is a a verygreat list of projects. I was wondering, can Director McMahon, can you clarify? Isee here the projects over 500,000, we require an H approval. And then for theother two, do we need a vote on that in a couple of weeks too? Chair,commissioners, yes, projects over $500,000 do need H approval. So thosetwo larger projects that Mr. Wolf has gone through the with love and downtowndevelopment corporation will be back before you for action in two weeks. Theother projects are administratively approved at those lower levels.>> Okay, great. That sounds good. Thank you. I'm I'm supportive of them. Iwanted to have a question about the 100,000plus loans that are structured as a forgivable loan. Can um can you maybe toour speaker or director McMah, can you explain the logic behind having it be aforgivable loan? I'm thinking back to our neighborhood star where we used tohave a loan route and then also a grant route and with the loan we basicallyeliminated that because of how labor intensive it was to keep tracking andyou know trying to get collections on that too and so I'm just wondering likehow did you all decide you wanted to do this again?>> Sure chair commissioners um along the similar lines actually with the staramounts being smaller dollar amounts wanting to ensure there wasn't thatadministrative burden. Um, similarly, this was under $100,000 for thosesmaller amounts to try and have them be less of an administrative burden to havethose B grants with the larger dollar amounts because they're larger projectsand also looking at the scope of them, the collateral, the dollars invested,having it be a forgivable loan in a relatively short time so that it's not,you know, a 20-year, a 10-year with sort of the tales and the work on that, but afour-year forgivable warrant with four-year forgivable loan with thatamount of investment into downtown wanting to ensure um a little bit morethe continued activation of the space and that it remains that opportunity.Thank you. And just a quick follow-up question then if if um a re recipienthad to basically pay back the loan um where where would the money go for that?Would are you thinking it would go back into the same fund and you would justgrant or loan it out again? Chair, Commissioner, I'm actually gonna getback to you on that because I don't want to misspeak as to any money coming backand precisely what what fund it would go back into. I'll note with the four yearsforgivable loan, a quarter is forgiven each year for the full amount at thatfour years. Great. Thank you, >> Commissioner Coleman.>> Thank you. Thanks for the presentation. I really don't have a question. I justneed to say that I'm really excited about this. It's really exciting seeingthe list particularly of um the administratively approved grants andseeing the diversity of small businesses that are represented there, ones thatare so vital to our city. I also am just particularly so excited about 134thStreet East. I used to live on that block and it's really hard to live on ablock where basically an entire stretch is vacant. and thinking about how do weuse small business support strategies and business support strategies toincrease our residential capacity downtown. It is hard to encourage peopleto live downtown when it, you know, we have these great apartments that areopening up, but you have these big vacant spaces where people don't feelsafe, where it feels like, oh, I can walk home from lower town, but I'm goingto walk on this stretch of the city that is kind of bleak at night. Um, so I justI can't say enough how excited about this I am. I think it's really reallyvaluable investments that are going to pay off for many years to come. So can'twait to vote on this. >> Thank you, Commissioner. >> Commissioner Naker. Thanks, Madam Chair.I uh I think uh bleak is an understatement and a very a nice word touse to describe that block. So uh thank you for saying that. Um, I was actuallyjust wondering to Commissioner Coleman's point, we do have some of those. Um,>> you're still in my thunder, Commissioner N. I'll let you I was going to give youguys an opportunity to ask your questions and then yes, I'd be welcomingup the two project folks because they're both in the room. Um, and I have had achance to tour um to tour one of the sites, but very interested in hearingfrom both of them. So, um, at this time, I can bring up those two um entitiesthat are here. if you're receiving one of the one of the project loans and wantto speak to the body um whether with the St. Paul Downtown DevelopmentCorporation or with Love Minnesota. Um you're can you're welcome at this time.>> Madam Chair, there are a few folks from I think the administratively approvedones as well here. So I don't know if they want to>> Yeah, we'll start with >> them>> the two. Thank you >> and feel free to come up. You don'tactually have to touch the mice. They will adjust to you. But feel free tojust introduce yourself and we promise not to to ask you any trick questions.So, welcome. >> Thank you. Oh, yeah. Nice to meet you.>> Uh, thank you, Chair Johnson. My name is Amelia Deio Gunpipe. I'm one of theco-founders and the CEO of With Love. >> Good afternoon, everybody. I'm DamaloGunipe, one of the co-founders of With Love.>> And good afternoon. My name is Thomas Tolley. I'm the director of operationsat Love. Uh we really appreciate this opportunityto stand before you guys today. Uh as you know, With Love is an 11,000 squarefoot uh civic integrated civic destination in downtown St. Paul. Um weare a cafe, an event and meeting space and we really hope to bring thatvibrancy back to that corner. Um we just left the space actually. We're justgetting our badges to be able to badge in. Um, and we're just so excited aboutbringing a light to that corner. Um, not only to be able to, uh, bring folks,residential folks as you'd mentioned, into our space, but also to be able toemploy local folks. Um, also we'll be having events and programming in ourspace. And so, we feel that it's not only a space for folks in downtown St.Paul, but it's a place for all the Twin Cities, all of Minnesota to be able toenjoy that programming and enjoy downtown St. Paul again. Uh we also haveambitions of bringing national speakers in and want the nation to really see howbeautiful St. Paul is and um what a beautiful city uh Minnesota has. So wejust really appreciate your time. >> Yeah, thank you so much for being hereand just for um also investing here in St. Paul. I'm really excited about thisas it is a revitalization project. um taking something that has been vacantfor quite some time and turning it into something that I would that I am lookingforward to visiting myself and I know a lot of my colleagues have either went tothe tour or I've heard from you all and so uh really excited about this projectitself and um I'm glad that just listening to you and just kind of seeingthe vision being able to walk through it was a whole different experience. Sothank you for being here today with us. >> Thank you and we will have more tours ifyou want to come see the space. Thank you so much.>> Yes. Thank you. >> When downtown developers meet now,welcome in. >> Good afternoon, Commissioner and uh uhChair Johnson and commissioners. Um just wanted to say thank you uh for thethoughtful approach you guys have taken as well as staff on putting this programtogether in the first place. um and uh you know making this possible. We'reexcited about uh Fist Street in general um and look forward to putting thesedollars to good use. If there are questions, happy to answer them. Alsobrought my friend and colleague Joe Spencer uh and uh I think he might havea couple words and thoughts on Fifth Street. Just also wanted to say thankyou so much for this uh this program. Uh I think in particular these two projectsthe the location is so incredibly strategic. Uh as has been mentioned uhthere is a certain bleakness to this stretch of fifth street and and we seeit as a key connection uh length to connect lower town to uh to this part ofdowntown. Um, and I think the with love project, an amazing project team, anamazing concept and filling a space that's been vacant really since it wasoccupied by Woolworth decades ago. And so a real need and I think a greatopportunity on both cases. So just wanted to say thanks.>> Appreciate you, Mr. Spencer. Commissioner Baker,>> thank you. Chair Johnson, could you give us just a a hint, a taste of what youthink might um relieve the bleakness in the future if you're successful?Are you >> What does the Endic cut arcade want tobe when it grows up? >> Are you talking about Fifth Street ingeneral? Are you >> That's the arcade.>> And the arcade >> and the arcade in particular.>> I mean, our our hope is to leverage the history ofthat building. Uh, as everybody knows, as you walk by both that and the empire,they really are historically significant and and we want to amplify that withuses on the inside that make the most of those spaces. Um,happily the history of that building is multiple users and we would hope thesame sort of thing comes out uh in the future when we when we bring it tomarket. Um, as to borrow kind of Joe's reference to strategic, some of thetiming for for uh programming that space is is very related to how we program theother spaces and the other buildings on that corridor. And it's a really uniqueopportunity to to have the opportunity to to create um really a relationshipand complement of uses across those properties. So we're pretty excitedabout that. >> Just to add a note about the so it waspurpose designed by Cass Gilbert to be retail and so that's absolutely ourevery intention and and plan is to revive and breathe new life into it asretail again. Um, and it just happens to be an it is a modestly sized but quitemagnificent design um by um you know one of our legends in in architecture here.So uh we're really excited about it. >> Well, thank you guys so much uh forbeing here as well and just adding that additional context. Uh I share the sameexcitement as my colleagues have shared just from seeing a building that we Idon't think have has been able to fully reach its potential um in such a longtime be able to come back in and be talked about being revitalized andbrought back to downtown in a way that community members can access itthemselves. And so just really excited about this project as well and lookingforward to seeing it come to fruition. Thank you for being here today.Um, and yes, we have a couple other uh projects that are in the room from someof the um I want to say smaller uh but it's not just a five-year projects, butfor those that are receiving uh economic development investments from the fund,if at all uh if you would like to speak or kind of share a little bit aboutyourself or introduce yourself, this is the time to do so. Welcome Thank you,Mr. >> U. I'm Jim Golden. I'm with the St. PaulFarmers Market and um I have my friend DJ who runs the Ethiopian restaurantnext to us. And so, um, for us, we just want to say thank you because>> I think, uh, sometimes it's lost that just a little bit of money goes a reallylong way. >> And so, we signed our lease July 4thlast year. And that's uh, space, the black dog space that was vacant forthree years. And now uh, since we moved in, another 10,000 square feet has beenrented out with like-minded businesses. So this and that doesn't really make thestatistics, Jud, uh but that really this really matters and we'll we'll be ableto leverage this and we'll have that money spent before our indoor marketstarts um November 7th on Saturday. So this will be quick and it'll look great.And so thanks again. Appreciate all the hard work I know you guys put into uhJoe, Rich, all you guys. I see all the work you do. So, thanks again foreverything. We appreciate it. It matters. We love it. So, thank you.>> Hello. Good afternoon, everyone. Uh I was not prepared to make a presentation,but I would like to make uh to take the opportunity really to say thank you forall your uh council members and the city staff for your continued supportlistening to us. Really valuing our contribution, the work that we aretrying to do in L Town is we we like to call it more than uh atraditional restaurant. We try to create a destination not just for the Ethiopiancommunity but uh a larger city of uh St. Paul members and Minnesota greaterMinnesota. Uh we are uh coffee kitchen and bar. We are also a destination foraventist for jazz venue, Ethiopian coffee ceremony and holidays. So reallyreally thank you very much for uh supporting our effort and uh helping usto have a continued presence in Lord Town St. Paul. Thank you. >> Thank you guys as well um for being hereand just for sharing. I appreciate being able to hear from folks directly and tosee the vision come to light and from seeing this really, you know, start asan investment idea too and advocacy based things that are coming through theorganizations and being able to kind of see this come to fruition. I am going todo a final call for folks that would like to speak about it because we willbe moving forward. So, this would be the time to do so. um uh and as we arelooking to really hear from folks that are um investing in our communitybecause we want to invest in you. >> Well, good afternoon, chair, councilmembers. I was not expecting to speak today to the council, but I'll take myopportunity to thank you all for investing in St. Paul, investing in thefuture of St. Paul and for what it is thatyou provide for us uh here as small business owners. I am the principalowner of Metronome Brewery. It's not just a brewery. We're in here because itwas founded from the George Floyd incident to make adifference. And we are the only brewery in the world that wants to take ourfunds and fund music education for kids. And we want to do it right here in theTwin Cities. And it's been a struggle the last four and a half years.It's been a big struggle. This is a huge help.So just want to thank you all and invite you down to the brewery at some time fora concert. And I won't suggest a beer. [laughter]>> Thank you. >> You can suggest a beer now.Um, but actually [laughter] we do appreciate you for taking the time aswell to be here. And honestly, my I'm just like smiling over here because Ireally truly enjoy to hear the testimonies too. And I think some of thethings that I've really brought and something that'll stick with me isactually the words that sometimes a small investment can go a long way. Wenever want to underestimate that. And when we're looking at, you know, amulti-million dollar budget, sometimes we over overlook those that might be ourthe 20, 30, 40, $50,000 uh dollar investments, but they're justas significant uh especially right now with the overall goal of being able torevitalize our downtown. So to clarify, those items that are on the slide aroundthe 518 will not be coming back to you all for approval, but the two items thatare um that are over that dollar amount will require our approval. So they willbe back with us not next week, but the week after that. Um so we will have iton the agenda and look forward to being able to approve it.>> Yeah. Thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. Wolf.>> Item number three is a staff report SR26-191.Introduction to HAM building conduit bond issuance. >> All right. While Laura's getting thatup, I'll get I'll hand it over to Director McMahon for the preface.>> Chair, commissioners, thank you so much. Laura Hansen from our housing team ishere to present information on this item similar to the last one. It'sformationalwith opportunity for discussion and questions and action at the next HAboard meeting. >> Great. Thank you, Director McMahon.Chair Johnson, commissioners, my name is Laura Hansen. I'm a principal projectmanager on our multifamily housing team. I will be introducing the Ham buildingconduit bond issuance. So in keeping with the downtown investment discussion,uh an overview of the project, the Ham building is located at 408 St. PeterStreet in downtown. Um the developer is Pack Properties. Uh and the project willbe to convert office to housing resulting in 128 housing unitsaffordable at 60% AMI. There'll be a mix of studios, ones, and two bedrooms. It'sa historic building, so the renovations will follow state and federal historicguidelines. Current conditions of the site. Um, as Imentioned, it it is a historic building. It was built in 1919 as offices for theHamsbury located on the east side of the city. The um basement and ground floorof the building are currently occupied by multiple tenants. um well-known tentssuch as Park Square Theater, Maritage, Loom Cafe, and plenty of other retailerson site. The top floors are um former office spaces that are currently vacant.Pack properties is the developer with um Ham Partners LLC being the owner entity.Uh the property was purchased in 2022 with um the intention to convert it tohousing. Um, Pack Properties has experience in both affordable housingdevelopment as well as mixeduse development, commercial retail leasing.The sources and uses for the project, total development costs for the projectum for the renovation is just over $49 million. Um, that will be funded inlarge part through tax the tax exempt bonds um low-income housing tax creditequity and historic tax credit equity. The project will be 100% affordable at60% area median income um for a minimum of 15 years. And you can see on thisslide the income and rent limits that will apply to the development. So what will be before you in two weekson September 23rd is a request up to 14 million in conduit uh multif familyconduit revenue bonds. The terms of the bonds meet all the HR policies includingclosing fees and ongoing fees for the long-term bonds. [snorts] Um uponreceipt of the bonds, the project is eligible eligible for 4% low-incomehousing tax credits um which attracts that significant equity to the project.Uh so long as 25% of eligible project costs are funded by the bonds which umis expected to be well met um for this project. There are no additional gapfunding requests for the HRA. This is solely for the conduit um bonds thatwill be before you. And just as a reminder, this is a conduit bond issueand the bond shall not constitute an indebtedness, liability, obligation, orother risk to the HA or the city of St. Paul. The borrow borrower will be solelyresponsible for all payments of principal and interest.So, um, as a reminder, in two weeks there will be a public hearing at the HRwith a resolution, um, and then a final city council approval for the bondissuance on the same day. With that, um, I'm happy to address anyquestions. We also have Rich Packin and Peter Broad from the development teamhere if you have any questions for them as well.>> All right. Thank you, Miss Hans, and uh for that report back and an updatebecause there was a lot of conversation surrounding this building and thedevelopment. So, it's great to see it at this point. Um Mr. Pacna, I welcome youup if you had anything that you'd like to add at this time. Uh for everyonewho's watching, it's not a great H meeting without putting the people onthe spot, and I have done that multiple times today, so I uh can't stop now. >> [laughter]>> Chair Johnson, commissioners, thanks um thank you for having me. I don't haveany comments prepared. Um but I first want to say thanks to the city team forall of the work that they've put into this project. It's been significant.This has been a hard project. Uh and so we've come a long ways and it's anexciting uh it's an exciting development. We've been working on thisfor several years. It's it's an amazing building. I consider myself fortunate tobe a part of this and um it'll be an iconic project when we're done. But I'mhappy to answer any questions that you might have of us, of the history of theproject, where what our plans are, what have you. >> Commissioner Naker.>> Thanks, Chair Johnson. No questions. Uh but just a thank you to you, Mr. Packin,um and to the team. It's exciting to see much more affordable housing coming todowntown St. Paul. Um, and in particular in this unique building, um, that hassuch a great first floor space, wonderful tenants. Um, I understand theformer chamber orchestra performance space within the building is going to bepotentially turned into pickle ball courts. There's a lot of interestingnuggets, um, in the development plan. So, um, a lot to be excited about. And Ialso want to thank, um, Mr. Packman and team for always investing in qualityaffordable housing and um never assuming that because affordable is before itsname that there needs to be any diminishment in the quality of theamenities and the housing that residents deserve.>> Thank you, Commissioner Baker. And uh yes, it's been really great to just kindof see especially the tail end. I know that this you came across this uhproperty before I was a council member and just kind of seeing the tail end ofof some of the work. It's been great to be brought on the project. Now, um justa quick question for you just around maybe what drew you to the to the site.You mentioned just kind of being uh with the project for years. What's kept youinvested um and developing in the space? >> Um I think there's a number of pointsthere like what drew us to the site. First of all, I'm proud to call myself aSt. Paul um developer, business person, what have you. And the Ham building isone of the most iconic buildings in the city. And so it in in our career, we'vebeen in business 30 years. We've taken apart and put back together manybuildings in St. Paul. And this building is by no means the largest. Uh it'sprobably not the most complicated. Um but it probably is the most iconic. Andso um I'm proud to have a hand in this. and it's it's uh it's an iconic piece,you know, in a 30-year career to be able to work on a building like this.>> I really appreciate that and just getting and it's been great to just getthese nuggets of getting to know you a lot better and so appreciate that andappreciate you for being here today. >> Thank you.>> I don't see any other questions from our colleagues. I'll simply share that thisalso will be in front of us um for a public hearing not next week but theweek after. So, appreciate your time, Mr. Pacinet. Thank you all. >> All right. So again, our next meetingdate is September 23rd. We have no other items that are comingbefore us. So with that, we are adjourned. Heat. Heat. [music] [music] [music] I know. [music]