Heat. Heat. [music] [music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music] Heat. Heat. N. Heat. Heat. [music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] [music] [music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. N. [music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] >> Hey. Hey. Hey. [music] [music] Heat. Heat. >> [music] [music] >> Safety Committee to order. Roll call, please. >> Vice Chair Coleman >> here. >> Johnson. >> Jo >> here. >> Kim >> here. >> Nerre >> here. >> Yang >> here. >> Chair Boy >> here. >> Six present. One on their way. >> Being council member Johnson. So good morning everyone. I just want to say that this is the ninth public safety committee meeting and next month will be our full year of uh the convenings for public safety. I just want to say I appreciate everyone's participation, involvement and engagement, not only in the topics but just really just ways that St. Paul and our partners and our county has really been championing public safety. Um I just wanted to just re um explore what the goals are of this committee because when we think about when this body was created, it was really dedicated to reviewing um and developing and recommending, you know, policy, good policy that's informed um not by not only by data, but also by um lived experience and our experts. Um, so we're going to be covering this month um, gun violence intervention and we have two partners here, excuse me. One partner being um, from the St. Paul Police Department and our other partner uh, our community organization that we've partnered with before, Moms Demand Action, the St. Paul location. and we're going to be reviewing areas of violence prevention, community first public safety, and how our partnering organizations have been engaging around gun violence intervention. And we've heard a little bit of that last month with um Sasha Cotton and Office of Neighborhood Safety. So, I'm just going to Oh, actually, I'll I'll turn it to Pierre to read into the record our first agenda item. >> Item number one, SPD nonfatal shooting unit review. So, welcome. We have Commander Nicole Peterson here and she's going to be reviewing our non-fatal shooting unit. Good morning, Council President, council members. Thank you very much for having me here. I really appreciate it. Um, as we said, my name is Nicole Peterson. I am a commander with our police department and I've been with our department for it's almost 24 years now, which is just crazy to think about. Currently, I'm assigned to our non-fatal shooting unit. I oversee that unit and actually I was tasked about two and a half years ago with um creating the unit. So, I've been with it through the inception um figuring out what has worked best for our unit and um just coming overcoming any difficulties that we may have had along the way. So, I um because of that, I'm able to give you a little bit of historical information about what the department looked like, how we investigated these crimes prior to the creation of our non-fatal shooting units. Um we started the unit in January 2024 and prior to that uh these cases, they're um aggravated assault cases where someone is actually struck by a bullet. Um these cases were investigated by our homicide robbery unit. Um, our homicide robbery unit falls underneath our major crimes division and all of um our units within that major crimes unit or um division is uh really cleverly named. So homicide robbery, you can probably figure out what they investigate. Our family violence unit, you can probably figure out non-fatal shooting, you can figure out what we investigate. The slight difference with homicide robbery is yes, they're investigating homicide cases. um they're investigating robberies, but there's a lot more that they're looking at. They're looking at kidnappings, they're looking at carjackings, um any assault case from someone slapping another person all the way up to previously these non-fatal shooting cases. So, they were really tasked with really high priority cases that demanded a lot of attention. um if it was a homicide, these investigators would respond uh within an hour to begin that investigation. That wasn't the case with these non-fatal shooting cases. They would get assigned the cases the next morning or if it happened on, let's say, a Friday, they wouldn't start looking at the case a lot of times until that following Monday. So, there was information that was being lost. um witnesses that maybe no longer wanted to be cooperative, same as the actual uh victims that they no longer wanted to participate in the investigation. And because of that, uh these investigators had a very heavy workload because of all the cases that they were looking at. Um so now why was the non-fatal shooting unit created? um a lot of the factors that I just mentioned, but I'm sure maybe you've heard Chief Henry talk about conversations that he had with um our prior mayor Carter about um the clearance rate for our homicide unit. Um with with regards to homicides, they're usually in the upper 80s, 90% clearance rate. And uh just last year, they actually cleared 100% of all homicides that happened within St. Paul. And um Mayor Carter at the time asked Chief Henry, "Well, why are you able to do such a great job on clearing, you know, solving these homicide cases, but you're not doing as good of a job on solving the um non-fatal shooting cases?" And uh at the same time um uh county attorney Choi was looking at a model in Denver of um Denver PD how they investigated their non-fatal shooting cases because their clearance rate had dramatically improved improved in recent years. Um so we began to investigate Denver's response to these cases and to see if we could apply it to St. Paul PD. We also wanted to increase public safety. Um, obviously we know that uh, you know, maybe the person that has struck by a bullet is the victim of this crime, but our community members are also victims. If they're not feeling safe in their homes because gunf gun fire is ringing out around them, you that's that's not an environment that we want for our our um our city. Um, and then we um believe that it's important to increase community trust by holding shooters accountable. Um, and we wanted to match or as close to matching our homicide clearance rates to our non-fatal shooting clearance rates. So, we began this partnership with Ramsey County Attorney's Office. And um, we began, like I said, looking at the um, Denver model and trying to apply it to St. Paul PD. I was able to fly out to Denver PD and actually meet with the um, investigators that were out there and it was very doable. um the model that they were creating. It just um we were also granted money which made their response a lot more um we were able to to implement their response because what they were doing was responding real time similar to a homicide investigation. So when a shooting happened, investigators were coming in within an hour. Well, that involves overtime. Um and so this public safety money that we were granted by the state allowed us to respond real time to these shootings. Um that so we were granted sorry $3 million over three years and that three years is actually ending um at the end of this year. So that money is running out at the end of this year. Um our the unit itself is it's very different than um our investigative other investigative units. We only investigate cases where someone is actually physically struck by a bullet and it does, you know, reduce our case load within the unit. But what that really allows us to do is to dig into these cases and thoroughly investigate each one. Um, we currently have a team of six sergeants and two officers that are assigned to the unit. Um, and these investigators were pulled from other areas within the department and those those positions were not backfilled. >> Councilman. >> Oh, I'm sorry. >> Thank you. Oh, no. I just raised my hand. Um, thank you so much for this presentation. I'm really glad that we're doing this. I I do have a couple of questions about the decision to require the victim rather than >> um investigating cases where there's a near miss or a gun is fired but it doesn't strike somebody. >> Is that entirely a resource based decision? And do we think that if we had adequate resources and could staff the unit adequately um that there would be increased value to public safety into achieving our other goals if we were to investigate those additional gunshots. >> So they are still being investigated. I don't want you to to um to think that they are not being thoroughly investigated. They are those cases where if someone is shooting at another person and they're they're not actually struck by a bullet. Those cases are continuing to be investigated by by our homicide unit. um to have the type of response that we do is definitely resource-based. Uh because we don't have the overtime funding or the personnel to, you know, have someone on call to be able to respond to to those type of um cases. It it just wouldn't be possible because of the other demands within the department. >> And Commander um Nicole, I have three council members, Kim, Ying, and then President Maker. I just have a followup um to that great question. Do you have um how do you do you track the bullets that you collect from those from the homicide cases or from just like you know shootings that happen in general? Do you collect the casings? Does it go somewhere into a datab database? And is that information shared across um differing um uh law enforcement jurisdictions? >> Yes, absolutely. Um we do collect the casings. Uh the any casing that is recovered goes to our um forensic service unit where uh depending upon the case we swab for DNA. Um and but every casing gets entered into what we call our NYN system. And that um Nibbin what it does is it looks at the casings and then it matches it to other casings from other uh cases that or other um locations where casings have been recovered and other guns um to see if they match up. And then that is able to bring correlations with from other agencies throughout the state. There was a shooting in Minneapolis and it was the same gun that shot those bullets, those casings. We are able to match that to our case and then we potentially could have leads from that case. So yes, all casings are analyzed within our department >> or excuse me, Yang, sorry about that. Our uh vice president Yang. >> Thanks, Chair Buouie. I had similar questions to both my colleagues. So, um, thank you for letting us know that the the cases where someone wasn't shot, like those are still being investigated. I was wondering if you have the clearance rate for those sort of cases at all. >> Yeah, let me um for the non-fatal shooting cases. >> Um, not the ones where where um let's say like shots were fired. We there wasn't anybody who was shot though. >> I do not have the um clearance rate on those cases, but that's definitely information that we can get to at a later date for sure. >> Great. Thank you. Great question. Last but not least, President Maker. >> Thanks so much, Chair Buouie. Um, curious about the close to $3 million over three years, million dollars a year. You mentioned that these the staff were all pulled from other departments, units within the department, not backfilled. >> So, where can you line item out for us a little bit what the additional million dollar? >> Um, we uh utilizing it. majority of it is for overtime um within our unit, but then we also get assistance from our special investigations unit, from our gang gun unit. So, we really have a team approach within the major crimes division, um we still have even though we have investigators specifically for these cases, we need assistance like we have execute a search warrant. So, it's not just our unit that's utilizing that um that overtime. It's many investigators within the major crimes division to help us um continue these investigations. And then our forensic service unit too. We've been calling them in to actually do the crime scene processing. So, they've been utilizing the overtime um money as well. Uh we've been utilizing the money for different technological based systems that uh for example um cell phone tower information um information for if we have a suspect that's been charged with one of these shootings, the ability to track their location. Um and then different software databases. We've utilized it to purchase that. Um and then uh are we had a um community engagement person as well and we've utilized some of the funds for that individual. Follow >> just a quick followup. Thank you chair. So to be clear is it these 10 folks job to be doing this investigation and then the overtime is when they have to come in outside of their shifts. That's correct. All hours of the night. >> Correct. We do. The money is not used to pay their salary. It's strictly for the overtime. >> Thank you. And as a followup to that, um I see the next slide here you have the breakdown of just the unit, but I would love to see the breakdown of um staffing um and also the budget for that uh for not only the overtime, but all the other units you mentioned like the gang unit, the forensic um unit, the cell tower. It'll be interesting to know like which unit actually tracks that. And also you mentioned a software database. So, I just want to just note that on record, I would love to have a followup in terms of not only just the non-fatal unit, um non fatal shooting unit, but also all the parties you mentioned. >> So, just so I can clarify and understand exactly what you're looking for, are you looking for if let's say our gang gun unit utilized uh overtime money from this grant, how much money was being used for correct is Okay, perfect. Y >> Okay, I think we're good now. So, keep going. Thank you. >> Perfect. Um let's see. Yes. And um and I kind of briefly touched on this, but uh our investigators, if there is a shooting within the city where someone is struck by a bullet, um they are called in and respond within one hour of that shooting. And what that really allows us to do is um begin the investigative process obviously right away. So we unfortunately had a shooting within the city last night and um two of our team members were called in. They were gathering video from community members. They were um from businesses they um were uh helping to helping patrol identify what evidence they need um to further the case along. They met with the victim. They spoke with the victim. They are able to build that rapport with that victim right away to show that we care and we want to solve this case. Uh so that I believe is one of the main reasons why this unit is important is because we are building trust with our victims. We're increasing community trust. We're speaking with witnesses and family members right there that night just to show that we are taking this extremely seriously and we want to solve this um solve what happened to you. And as it says there uh we investigate each case as if it's a homicide. Um the we've had cases where unfortunately someone was shot. It wasn't initially a homicide, but it eventually turned into a homicide. So we really pride ourselves in doing these investigations from the start exactly as a homicide investigator would. So that way there's if it ends up getting turned over to our homicide unit. There's just a you know a very smooth transition to that unit and there's no um bumps in the road and and they don't have to backtrack anything that we've done because we've taken care of all those initial steps. something. >> Commander Nicole, I just have a quick question with the scenario that you gave and also just um you know, I appreciate you highlighting yesterday's um incident. Um really tragic. I'm just really curious to know um there's a lot of there's a lot of response and it comes quickly and I think that's a great thing um that our city has, but can you talk about if someone was shot most likely they'll be responding there or the ambulance will be responding and taking them to the hospital. So when you talk about this response, is this happening um in the hospital or is this happening at their house or the scene of the incident? Can you just talk about what is the location in terms of like this level of response? >> Absolutely. Um the 90% of the time we are meeting with them at the hospital. So if they're brought into surgery, obviously we wait until they it's been approved by their um physician to actually meet with them. But yes, we're going to the hospital and we're making contact with them and their family members there at the hospital. >> Thank you. So this is just um a slide of the shooting victims um within St. Paul uh prior to um the start of the unit. So you can see during the COVID George Floyd time frame, we had a high in 2022 of 194 victims that were struck by gunfire within our city. 2023 um just prior to the start of our unit, we had 122 victims. The first year we had 107 and then last year we ended the year with 73. Again, not a great number. Uh we completely understand that, but it um but since the start of the unit, these the gunshot wound victims have decreased by 40%. And um that's 40% less people that have been struck by gunfire in our in our city. So, >> absolutely, Commander Nicole. We have um Council President Naker. >> Thank you, Chair Buoie. I I really appreciate having this data look to look at and I always want to celebrate success. Um and I think actually the next slide even more points to the success of the department in particular and this unit. Um but I note that the decline started prior to the inception of the non-fatal shooting unit. Absolutely. And cities across the country are seeing significant declines in violent crime. So >> which is good news. Um I'm wondering do we have any way of correlating the um or not correlating but showing a causation between the inception of this unit and the decrease. Yes. Um so prior to the start of our unit, Chief Henry made it his um one of his goals within um coming into his chief role of uh focusing on gun violence. So I believe part of the start of that decline was our Aspire unit was our officer office of neighborhood safety trying to um build stronger relations within the community. But you are exactly right. We are throughout the country seeing a decline in violent crime. Um we the numbers the statistics that we are seeing it's lower than what nationwide they're seeing. We also have um you know different studies that are uh that Denver PD has um participated in um and I haven't quite seen those results yet just to show the correlation based on the investigative type that they were doing previously to how they are investigating those cases now um seeing if there is actually a correlation if they can draw that cause and effect. Um we don't have that data. we kind of look at that we do look at the fact that it's lower than the rest of the country. So we we feel as though us along with our partners have helped to attribute um to the those lower numbers but no we don't have specific data showing that. So really great question and we have another question or comment from council member Kim. >> Yeah a followup to that great question. Um, right. I think it just illustrates that less people are getting struck by gunfire and that's like, you know, a great thing as the council president said. >> I have one question on the data and a second question around kind of like correlation. The first one is, do you have this disagregated by age? >> Um, I'm sorry, one more time. >> Do you have the data disagregated by age? >> We do. Um, we can absolutely get you that. I don't have it here with me today, but we can get you that. Yeah, that would be a great followup because prior to 2020 um the council uh piloted um was it COP money where we um sent out an RFP for community organizations to come forward. Some are youth focused, some were uh like the community ambassador program and I sort of wonder around like the trends of impact that maybe we saw >> after those programs were implemented. Okay. And then in addition, so I I wonder about age, right? And if it's changing, are we getting better in some age groups than others depending on the intervention? And the other question or thought that I had is, you know, this is, you know, maybe not a popular talking point, but we also have one of the best trauma centers in the state at region's hospital. And there are people that would walk into this hospital that potentially would not survive. And so I also kind of wonder around like um this is not like you don't actually need to pull the data, but I'm very curious around like the investments in that trauma center and how that also might correlate to this data and how it also might correlate to how quickly our first responders get there like our ALS units which is looks like exactly where you were going as well. So I I sort of wonder around like the the context of this numbers in a and and I know this is what you came here today so it's not to pick it apart but like it just makes me curious around the greater context of these numbers in terms of the multitude of services that feed into this um information. >> Absolutely. I that's what I mean when I speak about our partners. Um for sure our uh fire department paramedics that are responding and police officers as well putting tourniquets on some of these victims and then getting them to regions. We comment all the time that had it not been for regions, we would have been having another homicide. So, it yes, 100% those definitely contribute to um the fact that we don't have homicides, not the fact that they aren't struck by bullets, I guess, would be a way to look at that. >> Yeah, we'll follow up. Um, Council Member Johnson, >> I uh thank you so much. Um, I I really appreciate to this presentation. We have had a few different uh shootings in my ward lately and so I represent the east side of St. Paul Ward 7. I just wanted to also uh kind of carry on I guess to council member Kim's question for a little bit further data of just also um I guess where their where the gunshot uh wounds are victims are taking place like where the shootings are actually taking place uh would be very helpful to also share because I know when we look at the numbers right I think it's also really important to to understand just like where we're maybe seeing um not necessarily if there's a concentration area and just like how how we are responding um accordingly and so just kind of curious if you have beyond the age which is also going to be my question um because I think that gets into too if we're seeing like a younger uh a younger skew and data of age you know then it's like well what are what is the conversations look like with the school districts and look looking like with the you know parks and rec staff and some of the coordination that can happen there but I think also if we're starting to see just areas and especially over the last few where there has been continuous um maybe concentrations of hotspots in the city, how we are also responding to them as the numbers decrease because if that's something that I see like is just really important and our clearance rate increases, we um when we look at the data there, I just would love to know when we say St. Paul, you know, where exactly we're starting to see that. >> Yeah, we can um definitely work to get that broken down for you as well. >> Thank you. >> So, >> thank you, Council Member Johnson. do want to I'm sure I'm making a note as well. Um I know in our last meeting um we had one of the recommendations that came from um that was in the national um network of safe cities with Sasha Kaden was to have weekly if not monthly um um shooting data, shots box data. Uh and I think we we might still have that. I know on a on a weekly basis we get emails, but I think it'll be really great to integrate that into our committees to where we could just have it as just like an item so we can see, you know, not only race, age, um, and then also location as well. So, we can see if we can work on that. Absolutely. Yeah. Mhm. Um, and then here is uh just the clearance rates for our non-fatal shootings. um what it looked like prior to the start of our non-fatal shooting unit. We were usually sitting uh anywhere from low 20s to upper 30% for clearance rate. And now we are two years in a row have been um over 70%. Uh I believe we're going to be closer to 75 by the time we currently have seven cases that are still open from 2025. Um but I I think we're going to be closer to um 75% by the time we get all those cases closed. So, and then I also wanted to highlight just um the number of homicide victims that has uh gone down since the start of the unit. Um as you can see it, it is uh trending down. Um the lower number of the two in the bar graph is gunrelated homicides. Um, and last year we only had eight only. That's a horrible way to put that, but we had eight people that were unfortunately struck um and died from gunfire, but lower than our high at 30 in 2022. So, and again, that uh gun rellated homicides have decreased 62% since the start of the unit. >> Uh, Commander Nicole, we have a question from Council Member Johnson and also um VP Yang. >> Thank you. Uh thank you uh Chair Buouie and Commander just a quick question for you that popped in as you were kind of going through the the numbers as well. Um consistently throughout the years uh that I guess the last two years has it always been at the same staffing level? >> Yes, we have. We've been um very fortunate that uh we've been able to maintain six sergeants and two officers uh staffed within non-fatal shooting unit. >> Okay. I'm just one thing I just will note is um as I continue to see the positive um both coverage but also like reporting back with the numbers and the 71% data point for the last two years and just like the the overall work that you all are putting in. I just want to also celebrate that but also uplift that and as a testament to a very small um you know unit when it comes to uh personnel but the impact overall. Um, and I just think that that's really a testament to where when you are able to prioritize certain things, you see the actual data quite literally double in a year and then sustain over time and continue to grow. Um, I think that it would be really helpful at least from our vantage point too. And uh I'm overall really interested in hearing to the like the typical day of a sergeant um in this unit because I think one of the things that we had just I know for myself I had a lot of time to talk to our local east uh east side district you know police officers and folks that are out on the ground. we did a ride along, but I don't necessarily feel like I've had a chance to really hear um and see directly what a day in the life of a sergeant within the non-fatal um shooting unit entails and like what it all includes, especially surrounding like the back end. Um you know, what does it look like start to finish? And I just wanted to share my interest in that, especially as we head into the summer. Um and so um just that's an open invitation but def definitely just something that I am intrigued with more so as someone who's learning especially what our our approach here at the city is to something that is so important to my community. So just wanted to share >> absolutely we can definitely arrange something to um someone to speak with you and that's not a problem at all. >> And then um VP Yang. >> Thank you Chair Buouie. I just wanted to take a moment to commend you all for your work. you all are the unit is a small but mighty mighty team and I just wanted to share that for me personally this is definitely the type of um investment that we need to continue making in this city. I mean you can clearly see in the results that the the results I mean they really speak for itself. This is really impressive and and just incredible. And so I want to say thank you like this is life-saving work and I'm I'm curious like you know I'm um I'm seeing the progression here which is really incredible. I'm wondering what does it when you compare it to like the number of let's say like overall gun violence cases or attemp attempted homicide cases. What does that look like? because part of me is wondering, okay, maybe um we're we're seeing that, for example, like we might be seeing more gun violence cases where the person who's um the the perpetrator, they're just not um like they're trying to hit somebody for sure, but it's just not um it's not hitting like whoever they're trying to aim at. And so I'm wondering if you can can uh give us like a bit of context to understand that piece too. So the um you had mentioned attempted homicide and I just want to touch on that because those are actually investigated by our unit. Um so it it really is uh up to the charging attorney. Um and we have such great partnerships with Ramsey County Attorney's Office. Like they they are the reason the reason why we are successful. It wouldn't matter if our investigation was super thorough. if they didn't want to charge those cases, we, you know, we would be nowhere because the the same people would still be running free. So, I cannot thank them enough for everything that they do. So, that the attempted homicide, it would depend upon, you know, how many times did the suspect shoot, you know, where how um severe was the victim's injuries. It could be an attempted um murder case or it could be an assault case. Uh, with regards to your question about shooting at someone and not actually hitting, I kind of look at the way that we are investigating these cases. We're we or or I shouldn't say these cases, um, gun violence within the city. We're taking chunks out of it as we go. You know, homicide, obviously, that's always been a priority. Well, then we had the Aspire unit. Um, and then we've morphed into our non-fatal shooting unit. And now the focus is going on our um we called our gun unit where we know that shots um have been fired within the city. We don't even have a victim because maybe they're just shooting up in the air. But that's that person that's shooting, you know, just shooting up in the air could be turning that gun on an individual neck. So now we won't have the exact same response that we have to the homicides and non-fatal shooting, but we are definitely more thoroughly investigating these cases even when we don't have a victim because we understand that maybe that person is not supposed to have a gun within the city. They're definitely not supposed to be shooting within the city. You know, these are all um crimes that that need to be thoroughly investigated that if solved um it's going to take guns off the street. It's going to help our community members feel safer. So, we're just taking chunks as we go and um shifting our focus. Okay, now we're doing this really well. Let's see what can we do next. What's our next step in um reducing gun violence? So, >> just a quick follow up. Thanks, Chair Boy. And just in general, I'm wondering in terms of gun violence cases we're seeing in St. Paul, is it on the rise? Are we seeing a decrease in it? >> So, our shots fired is down. I think um Alyssa would maybe know this a little bit better, but I think all um matrix within um gun violence is down within the city. Um so that that is a win. Even the shots fired are down. So, and along that um question, I wanted to ask particularly around if there's been a history um with SPD particularly, I just remember when I was in my time serving in Minneapolis, there was like these big gun buy um programs um gun buyback programs and I'm just curious to know uh you know where if we've had those levels of initiatives and also what is our response for like gun possessions? They're like not crimes, but like if there's like gun possessions or illegal gun possessions, definitely. Um, no, there are people that um within our cases that maybe they weren't a shooter, but they had a gun illegally. That's definitely someone that we are um working to get charged investigating. Um, and as far as the gun by program, I believe Ramsey County has had something like that in the past. I don't know how long ago that that was and I'm not familiar with um a program like that within the city. >> Okay. And one last question too cuz I see we have well actually I'll let you do this last slide because it's connected to the partnership. So, um, yes, a lot of this I've already touched on, but, um, just the one thing maybe I haven't is that, uh, previously these cases were investigated, um, looking for victim cooperation, and we found that kind of similar to domestic violence, we don't get a lot of victim cooperation in these cases. So, we're really basing our investigation on evidence, you know, video evidence, um, just, uh, the, um, NY that we talked about earlier. Um and uh so we are able to build this case on a solid foundation rather than a victim that may be cooperative one day and not cooperative another. So uh we've um that's been a a switch in how we are looking at these cases, but I think it's been a really good switch and I believe that Ramsey County has been on board with that as well based on how they are charging out these cases. And then yes, I definitely want to highlight our partnerships. Um I've mentioned Ramsey County Attorney's Office um as far as their uh charging side, but then also Ramsey County Sheriff's Office. They have a victim um program where they have funds available. If uh let's say we have a victim that maybe needs immediate housing, we've contacted Ramsey County Sheriff's Office. They've been able to help us with funding regarding that. And then of course, Office of Neighborhood Safety. uh they continually are um looking to assist uh individuals that either are struck by bullets, witnesses um and you know because you know the and even people individuals that are kind of on that border of maybe today they're uh could be potentially in the life of um gun violence but then the next day they could end up being a victim. So those are important people that we need to reach out and um try to help them. So, um, and then ultimately, uh, our department is just really working cohesively for the mission of reducing gun violence. As I talked about within major crimes, we are all just jumping on board and and helping out. Um, and then also our patrol unit, you know, just the great response from them. I can't uh talk enough about it's because of the response and the investigation they did within those first couple minutes before our investigators got there that really helped us solve the case. you know, it was just that one little piece that they were able to to pick up. So, we just are really proud of our police department and um everything that's going on there. So, any questions at all? >> Thank you so much, Commander Nicole. We have two questions here from Council President Naker and then Council Member Joseph. >> Uh well, thank you, Chair Buouie. I just want to echo my colleagues praise to you and the division. Um I think it is amazing how much um just focused attention on something matters. um bringing the same amount of attention we were bringing to homicides to non-fatal gunshot wounds. And that's that's the difference. Um and then I also appreciate you've said the word partner so many times in this presentation. And so it's um so evident and um I think noteworthy that you and and Ramsey County are working so closely together using a model that worked in Denver, not reinventing the wheel and and sure enough it's working here. I also want to note there's a partner uh in the house that we're going to hear from in a minute, Mom's Demand Action, who has been um so critical in helping us pass legislation related to things like safe storage. Um I think that's actually what led to the huge drop off after 2024 was when that passed and then you see um the drop off in in gunshot wounds there. I just wanted to ask um in terms of going forward um the money you mentioned runs out this year. Um to Sher Buie's earlier question about like how much specifically does the program cost, especially in ongoing costs now that you've purchased software, initial startup fees, things like that. How are you thinking about funding the program in the future? >> Well, um that I'm going to have to refer to um our assistant chief Ford. Uh that's definitely something that we have been talking about that this is not a program that we can stop. you know, we it would be um remiss of us to do to stop doing this. So, they are working on different ways that uh we can um still get the response, still use the technology that we've um been able to utilize to help really solve the cases that uh the evidence that we need um get that evidence. Um so, I'm going to have to leave that question to Assistant Chief Ford. So, thank you. Mhm. I have a a followup to that. Uh but also I don't want to forget about Council Member Jo. So >> Okay. Um thank you, Chair Buie. Uh Commander Peterson. I had a similar question. Um I'll start kind of with a with a comment. I uh really appreciate the presentation and uh and you know the results from the nonfatal shooting unit. Uh and then also, you know, really um am committed to investing in in this and also all of the partnerships and relationships and our partner departments that also contribute to um the the results that we've been seeing over the last few years. And so my question was similar to Council President Nakers because I also recognize that we had $3 million over three years and kind of what happens next. Um could you could you talk a little bit more about how the $3 million has been spent if you can because it's also my understanding that the um the uh looks like there's 10 10 employees that are part of this program and you said that sometimes they use overtime when they get called to these um these uh these uh occurrences in our city. So, if you could talk about that a little bit more just so you could understand the cost of this program, but it sounds like uh Assistant Chief Ford might have more information. And then my other question, um, are there other cities similar in size or maybe even not similar in size to St. Paul that have their uh own non-fatal shooting unit? >> Um, I'll start with that question first because I can answer that [laughter] the fastest and easiest. Um, Minneapolis is starting one up. I know that their response is a little different than ours because I don't think they have the staffing to do it in the same way that we do, but they are definitely trying. Um they've seen the results over here and they're like we got to try something. Um Denver, there are not a lot within the country. Uh the big difference I think between us and other agencies that are trying this um when we went out to Denver uh they talked about how people are departments will kind of go partway in. Maybe they won't do the on call piece where they respond to the shootings, but what Denver found is that if you go all in and you are going out to all of these shootings and you're meeting with all the victims and and um starting that investigation right away, that's where you really see the results. So, I don't while I think there are some non-fatal shooting units throughout the country, there are not a lot that have an on call response like we do. I mean, maybe a handful. Um, but on the flip side of that, I believe it's gaining momentum and people are seeing the results and they understand that that's something that they need to try. Um, with regard to the money and the breakdown, um, I we can get you a breakdown of how that money was has been spent up until this time. Um, that I think would answer your question better than I can do it off the top of my head if you're comfortable with that. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Yeah. And have a question from Chair Johnson. >> Yeah. I know that that data would be very helpful. Commander, I I'm just uh I guess along the vein of just like really talking about I think there's, you know, there's definitely an appetite for uh for my I guess on my behalf to to see this program sustain. I think there are several things about um the non-fatal shooting unit, but the most obviously important is that it seems to be working from what I gather. Um, one of the things that I would just ask is if um, you are aware of any sort of support that maybe you're getting from the grants team or when it comes to just being able to kind of advocate for the sustained funding over time. What I know that this was, you know, predominantly the money had come from the state. So, are you seeing some appetite for continued investment at the state level um, and or federal level or even just in the philanthropic sector? like are you starting to receive solicitations or is there certain things that you've just kind of had your eye on especially just when I think about the investments that we're making and I think also just it seems sometimes that the St. Paul Police Department has at least on the council agendas there are several times where we're applying or accepting funding and I'm just wondering if you all um if there's any updates around just like how you were seeking out uh more grant related endeavors too. Um, I believe the legislature, the state legislature is looking at funding non-fatal shooting units. Um, I uh I don't know where that is in the process. I um believe it went through uh it passed through one level and it's um working its way through the rest. Um initially that bill was proposed for departments that are struggling with their clearance rates. We don't qualify. Um, but that being said, the person that proposed the bill also said he doesn't want to punish departments that are doing a good job but still need the funding to continue the work that they're doing. So, I'm not sure if there was a revision written in that or where it's at in that process. I know um Chief uh Henry actually um spoke to the legislature about our our um unit and the success that we've had and helps to um just promote the success of it. Um, so no, at this point we have not really um sought out any grants uh that I'm aware of. Um, so no, at this point we have not. >> That's a really great question, um, Chair Johnson, and that was like along the side the questions I had particularly around what going on at the state level. I do know a couple weeks ago there was this article, um, about uh, Representative Cedric Baker or excuse me, Cedric Fraser, different Cedric. um was uh the chief author of the clearance grant. Um and I know that's the the funding that the city of Minneapolis was looking to um use. Um and understanding that we're on the last year of our public safety funds or the public safety aid um which I believe was like what five or seven years ago or it was a while. Um >> um it was 2023 but funding for 2024. >> Okay. >> Yeah. for the 204 2526 is the funding for it. >> And um and I I believe it must have been in a slide, but if not, but it was $3 million that was given to actually backfill this program. Now that we're coming towards the end of it, it is really important. I share the same um response from all my colleagues that I want to be committed to this. I want to ensure that we have enough funding for it, but I also want to just ensure that we're not just um banking on overtime, you know, and then that has been a shared agreement amongst all of us in terms of what are ways that we can best manage and reduce overtime. Um just because, you know, we I think this is a a unit that has a lot of success and it gives an opportunity to also recruit. Um, so I will be interested in the budget conversations to see if there is a plan to expand staffing. Um, so there isn't not only um um overuse of overtime, but also I think about burnout. I think about, you know, being a first responder and having to respond to non-fatal shootings, to to shootings in general, and just how that just weighs on you, right? And I'm really just thinking about just the overall health and well-being of our of our um responders and people who have to show up to the scene time and time again. So that's something uh we'll definitely make sure we can follow up on. Uh I also will be um following up with um office of financial services because I know um Chief Henry he did share with me a couple days ago um in preparation for this um presentation that some of the financing is you know that the breakdown and staffing and everything that's handled in that department. So but I just truly truly appreciate um the the eagerness to even come before us. I know uh we've been looking to have this presentation back in last year um and I'm happy that we have some great results even now and however we can support in the future. So thank you so much commander. Is there any other questions before we move on? Thank you so much commander. >> I really also want to thank you for your interest. it um it speaks to uh just the level that you guys are um want to hear about how we're doing and and the fact that it um affects your uh constituents. It's just I really appreciate it. So, thank you. >> Absolutely. So, agenda item number two and I think uh we have about about 15 minutes um for this last speaker. So, Do we have time? 11:30. >> It's 11:30. Okay. Sorry about that. We I'm thinking 11 in my head, but we have a we have enough time for Yes. Please don't fill um >> I've got public schools is out today, so I've got little boys at home that need me. So, I'll keep it I'll keep us on a good [laughter] >> Oh, nice. >> Um PRD. >> And we are um we are YouTube live. So, hopefully they're watching on [laughter] YouTube. They would have gotten very excited. >> Unless you're limiting their YouTube time. >> We're all [laughter] trying to do >> and not succeed. >> There's their civic lessons for today. [laughter] >> Yes. >> Right. That's a future mayor if they're >> boys are the same age. So, council member just and I see each other a lot out and about. >> Okay. Oh, >> the police left, but I wanted to thank them for that presentation. The non-fatal injuries um initiative is is is gets a lot of attention and in our sphere [laughter] um and is really a model um and so I wanted to just thank them for all that information and the hard work that they do they're doing. >> And Kathleen, excuse me, right before you start, I just want to make sure Pierre gets a chance to read in the in the record so our OTC team can ceue it up. >> Thank you. Uh, item number two, SR 26110, St. Paul Moms Demand Action overview and legislator update. >> All right, wonderful. Thank you all so much for having me. Thank you, Chair Bowie. Thank you to all the council members. It's good to see so many familiar faces and be back in this familiar space. Um, my name is Kathleen Anderson. I am a longtime lead with Mom's Demand Action St. Paul and the greater state of Minnesota. Um, I'm also now the director of outreach and organizing for Protect Minnesota. So, I'm like the nexus [laughter] of a lot of work across the state. Um, and I'm a social worker. So, thank you so much. Um, and as a social worker, I've become a bit of a subject matter expert when it comes to firearm suicide prevention in particular, which is a huge issue around the country. It's a huge issue in our state. Um, and I'm going to talk a little bit more about why. Um, and so that's why I'm here today. That's why Gretchen asked me to do this presentation. Um when someone is in crisis and exhibiting these signs of suicidal ideiation, prolonged sadness, changes in mood or behavior, hopelessness, sleep problems, withdrawing, isolation, aggression or agitation, increase in risk-taking behavior, increased alcohol or drug use, or talk of killing themselves or harming others. as a clinician, but also just as like a person in this world. My number one concern is if they have access to a gun. And the reason is because guns are so uniquely lethal. When they are used in suicide, um when a firearm is used as a means to suicide, it is fatal 90% of the time. Other methods are fatal 3 to 8% of the time. And so when someone attempts suicide with a gun, there is little to no time for them to reconsider, to be interrupted, to be rendered medical aid. Um, and that is why it is so fatal. And so when somebody can has the opportunity to survive a suicide attempt, they have the opportunity to go on and recover. There's a really harmful myth out there that, you know, if somebody is really determined, they'll find a way. And that's just not borne out in the evidence and the data. The reality is is that the majority of people who survive a suicide attempt do go on to recover, but they need that second chance. A firearm does not offer them that opportunity. So again, whenever someone is in or approaching crisis, that's my question, whether it's on like a Facebook forum or in a in, you know, in a in a clinical setting is, do they have easy access to a firearm? Um, and when we ask that question, it's because firearm suicide is really widespread. Um, we are getting better at talking about suicide and talking about firearm suicide, but there is still a really strong taboo, especially in um different communities, but more than 26,000 people die by gun suicide annually in the United States. That's nearly 6 in 10 deaths um by firearm are suicides. So, self-inflicted gunshot wounds. In Minnesota, that number is usually about seven out of 10. This last year, 2025, 77% of our gun deaths in Minnesota were firearm suicides. So, a lot of the work that I do is talking about what gun violence looks like in Minnesota. It overwhelmingly looks like firearm suicides. Um, traditionally that is older white men in greater Minnesota. Hi, Megan. Um but increasingly we are noticing the trends um moving more into the city center and we're noticing that youth particularly black and brown youth are at a higher risk of firearm suicide. So while it still disproportionately impacts older white males because they tend to be gun owners um and have dis um there are discre like dispar discrepancies in their access to mental health services and you know stigma and talking about it. But we are noticing it increasingly affecting youth um and increasingly affecting um people in the cities. Um we already talked about how 90% of suicide attempts with a gun end in death. Um and 54% of all suicides in the US involve a gun. So the question becomes what can we do? Um you all know moms demand action um is always banging the drum about practicing secure storage. So at the individual level, everybody that has a firearm in the home can practice secure storage to prevent um accidental injury, discharge, children getting a hold of it, preventing gun theft, and then creating a barrier between an overwhelming urge and a fatal suicide attempt. Um, we do suggest that if somebody in the home is experiencing not even quite a crisis, but way before we get to that point, we say like if you're if you're feeling what I call wobbly, right? If you have seasonal effective disorder and it's that season, if you're having a relapse, job loss, grief, um those are times to consider changing the code or giving the keys away to another family member. If it is uh if your symptoms are persisting, you might want to engage in out ofome storage where you might store your gun with a friend or family member at a a storage unit unloaded. Um or we have temporary gun storage maps throughout the state. Not a lot in St. Paul because we don't have gun shops in St. Paul, [laughter] but there are some in the suburbs. Um and then the final option um and again like the last and final step is what what I'm here to present the rest on and those are our extreme risk protection orders. So this was legislation that was passed in 2023. Um and it has already had a tremendous success. I I wish I had the data statewide off the top of my head. I think we've filed over 400 hero petitions since 2023. Um, and so that's potentially 400 lives that have been saved, not to mention if there was um threats against other people. Um, we they've they've um the data is already really strong from the first two years of implementation. Basically, an extremist protection order is a court order that can temporarily remove the gun from someone's guns or a gun from someone's possession um while they're in a a crisis moment. And the idea is creating time and space for them to get the help that they need. So petitioners are law enforcement, um, city or county attorneys, and then immediate loved ones. Um, so that's usually people that live in the household, parents, grandparents, um, children. Um, and they can file a petition with the court for the guns to be temporarily removed. Um, a great example of that is, um, right after annunciation up in Duth, there was a man who was threatening to shoot up the school across across the street. Um, so he was arrested for making those threats, but again, he hasn't committed a crime. You can't really you can't charge somebody just with those threats. Um, but they were able to file an emergency petition for the immediate removal of the guns from his home. Um, and then so when he was released, he didn't have access to them, nor would he pack a back pass a background check to get more guns. And so those school children, those staff, those parents, that community was safe while this person hopefully got the help that he needed. Um, an emergency order is going to be um within 2 days. So again, demonstrating the urgency of this issue, up to 14 days where a court hearing has to be held. That final extreme risk protection order can last from 6 months to a year and can be renewed um if if the original petitioner deems it necessary. But you do have due process. You do go in front of a judge. You do still have access to your rights. Nothing goes on your criminal record. This is in civil court. But while you are in the in or approaching this period of crisis, you do not have access to a highly lethal means. Director Heathling, I have a quick question um about the story you um gave. When you mentioned petition, um is that was a petition put in place be before the emergency order or is now the emergency order uh substituting or replacing the petition? >> Yeah. So, usually how it from what I remember of the paperwork um which you can easily find on one thingyou can do.org work um under under the state of Minnesota um you the petitioner in this case I think it was law enforcement um and it often is law enforcement they do the majority of petitions um they they it's like you check a box for an emergency order and then the or the and the final order most people are checking both boxes because they want the guns removed as soon as possible and then they they and then it's going to go to court for it to continue beyond 14 days. Um, but that the petition is that um that document that is sent in in this case by law enforcement. Does that answer your question? >> Okay. >> I have a lot of friends who actually handle the paperwork that are better at like some of the nitty-gritty, but um so yeah, so we talked about the real life scenario deciding if you should take action. Um I do a lot of outreach. Uh Gretchen always famously says like that the it it's a great policy. It's a great tool that we have in our toolkit. Um, but it is only as good as the paper that it's written on if people don't know about it and don't know that it's an option. Um, and so I do a lot of the outreach with just sharing with people like this is what suicidal crisis can look like. This is what everyone should be doing and these are the escalating steps you can take before it gets to this high-risisk situation. um what makes it high risk are those imminent threats um direct threats of harm against self or others um the number of weapons um and just somebody's grounding in in reality. You know, we kind of know the difference between somebody who's having a hard time and recognizes it and somebody that is very unaware that they are having a hard time and that they are a danger to themselves or others. So that would be a time when you would want to take the step to reduce their access to lethal means while they while they reground themselves and get the help that they need. Um, so it's like awareness of the problem, willingness to do something about it. Again, there's like all of these steps that people can voluntarily take. If they won't voluntarily take those steps because of, you know, that lack of grasp of reality or their own threat to self, that would be a time to take matters into um hands. Um, one thing I want to note too, especially because there's a lot of discussion about, you know, we have to focus on mental illness, we have to f talk about mental health. Um the majority of people who we know that a we know that people that are live with mental illness are disproportionately likely to be victims of gun violence as opposed to perpetrators. Um over 50% of people who die by suicide did not have a diagnosible mental health condition um at the time of their death. Um and so it's just a much more nuanced conversation than just like oh someone has mental illness you know and then therefore they shouldn't have a gun. That that just doesn't really match reality. Um, and there's no mental uh there's no diagnostic requirement for an HRO to be filed. Um, because there's not really a diagnostic um, you know, there isn't really a diagnostic code for rage and radical radicalization and isolation, you know, like it's it's a much more complex problem than the DSM captures. Um, and so we talked a little bit about how it works with the emergency order and the hearing date within 14 days. Um, and then at the hearing, the court decides whether they'll issue that final extreme risk protection order. Again, based on the evidence. Um, and during that time, not only do you not have access to your guns, but you're prohibited from purchasing for the duration of that order. And then we talked about how they can be renewed. Um, and then once the order expires, the person will get their guns back and can legally buy and possess new ones unless they're prohibited from possessing for another reason. you had a question or Coleman, excuse me. >> Oh, yeah. Sorry. [laughter] >> Thanks, Sharon. Thank you so much for for being here today and for this presentation. Um, I have a question about when they're flagged on the background check if they were to try to purchase a gun during the period that the uh the was in place. >> In those instances, is there any notification to um law enforcement or anybody else that they've been attempting to purchase a gun during this period when at that point they know that they aren't legally permitted to? That is a great question for my friend at the ATF. Um I think a lot of those I I think those are some of the concerns is just like with the lack of funding um for the ATF and for local law enforcement and and the some often dismissal of gun violence as as a um a public health and a public safety problem that we can prevent. Um we don't always have those red flags in place. Um, but in theory, they certainly cannot pass a background check. That doesn't mean that um people will be notified by the attempt. But that is a really good question that I' I'd like to know, too. So, I'll try to I'll follow up. >> And a couple questions from Council President Ner and Council Member Joseph. >> Thanks, Trib. Um, two questions. Um, one of them just related to the uh temporary extreme risk protection order and the hearings. Are the hearings, you mentioned that the temporary protection order lasts 14 days um and the person is notified of a hearing date within 14 days. Is the hearing actually going held within 14 days? >> Yes, the hearing has to be held within 14 days and that's part of the the the due process kind of promise that was made when the when the law was passed. >> Okay. And then um during the hearing I guess on whom is the burden of proof >> lying? So if >> if I am saying I'm feeling unsafe and the other person is saying I don't know why she's feeling that like how I guess is it determined by the court that someone should have one of these and who on whom is the heavier burden of proof? >> Yeah. Um I have not sat in for one of those petitions. Um they're not public. Um the sorry the I have not sat in for one of the hearings. The petitions themselves are publicly available. um from the violence prevention project at Hamlin University does a really has done a really great job kind of tracking the data from the implementation. Um I know from the first year it was something like it was upwards of 80% maybe even 90% of the emergency orders were approved and something like 80% were of the court hearings um like the final orders were were approved. And so it it pointed to the fact that the cases that were getting in front of judges uh were were very very strong that there was a lot of evidence to back up the need for the temporary removal of this person's weapons. Um but I don't know I'm not a legal expert so in terms of the burden of proof I'm not as equipped to answer that question. But these are Gretchen's going to helping me remember all these great questions so that we can follow up because we're always learning too. This is terrific. I mean, just as a quick followup, I think I'm thinking about how to because to your point, we want to spread the word about the tool and I think one of the first questions especially um >> you know, a family member, for example, might ask is what what kind of evidence, you know, do I need to be successful in a hearing like this? >> No. And that's great. And that's one of the reasons that I brought these like postcards. So, we have these when we table throughout the state. You'll see us at safe summer nights this this summer. Um one thing you do can do.org or is if it's with that whole idea is that like it's heartbreaking to watch a loved one suffer and to be worried about them and what they're going to do and like the one thing you can do is reduce their access to this highly lethal means. Um and then it breaks it down by state because different states um have slightly different processes. They've got different paperwork of course. They've also got different groups of people who can petition. In some states medical professionals or social service providers can petition as well. Um, and so in Minnesota, you have access to the court documents, FAQs in English and in Spanish. Um, we need to work on that. Um, but then, um, and it walks you through all of the acceptable evidence and the things that you would need to to have a strong case. Um, Ramsey County has done a tremendous job of staffing the extremist protection order team. Um, and I know Henipin County has as well. And in fact, there's one of my peers is a social worker who works for the Henipin Countyy's urbal office helping people navigate this process. A lot of times, um, a family member will inter will will share the information, share their evidence with law enforcement and have law enforcement kind of do it on their behalf as well and help them navigate that process. In an ideal world, not only would everybody know about this tool, but every every county would have somebody helping with that process. Um, but we're not there quite yet. It's very uneven throughout the state even um county by county which counties are embracing this as a tool and which ones are not. >> Council member Jelson and Counciloman Johnson. >> Thanks Cher. Um Kathleen, I had a similar question. I was trying to understand [clears throat] like the process in the hearing and what is the >> um and you know how does that work? But I think my other and I was also going to ask how many of those like 400 petitions were actually like granted. It sounds like you said eight 80 to 90% or something. >> Yeah, it's it's a significant number. I'd have to look back at last year's aggregated data. Um but >> I guess um what I would be interested in also understanding is, you know, I know it's like extreme risk. So to me that, you know, if we had a scale of the level of risk, you would have to be it' have to be very obvious it seems like. And so what I'd want to understand more is like what is the threshold you know in these hearings that you know judges are looking for where they would grant one because when we're talking about things like um mental health issues uh or you know other types of disorders those can be fairly complex and sometimes I don't know how you >> could even prove those if they hadn't been diagnosed. And then is that alone enough to um support an extreme risk protection order? Just for example, I think there could be a lot of other factors that would support um an extreme risk protection order, but where you know where is that threshold when we're not kind of on way on the far end of like someone has obviously made a threat and we have proof of it, but we're maybe somewhere >> in the middle. >> I think one of the biggest criteria is is that explicit threat of harm and the idea that like you can back it up with a weapon, right? And so it's like somebody say, I don't want to say it out loud, but I'm going to kill myself or like and so or I'm going to kill you. And then they I know one example in Minneapolis was somebody was he had actually like um fired shots into the ceiling of his apartment and had lifelongstanding issues with the neighbor above them. Like that was an example of something that was escalating, right? So they're looking for ex explicit threats, escalation of behavior, um spiraling of, you know, consciousness and just like tetheredness to reality. Um and then it's the lethal means to to create carnage, right? I mean like and I think that that's just the piece is that um it's it's wanting people to get help for for this spiral that they're experiencing and this escalation that they're experiencing while creating safety for themselves and the community around them. Um and there's a much more we could do in terms of like making sure that the people who are like leaving that courtroom with their guns confiscated are getting the mental health resources that they need to. Um, but that idea of creating a lot of time and space while that person gets the help that they need. >> And then I think >> yeah, there's a lot of great anecdotal stories that I can share in a followup to >> and and I one more question I was thinking about. So like basically if you if you get an extreme risk protection order, it sounds like it lasts for 6 months or or a year or a certain duration and then once it ends, it sounds like it ends unless it's renewed. Yep. >> So, is there are there guidelines or criteria for um >> uh things that this person is supposed to do in the meantime to be able to, you know, I mean, it sounds like it'll just end no matter what unless it's renewed, but how does that work? Because I guess the concern would be um the extreme risk protection order ends, that person hasn't done anything in the meantime to like, you know, be able to get the help that they need and now, >> you know, we're kind of back in the same situation. um like what does that look like? Because it sounds like otherwise you're relying on that to get renewed by whoever petitioned for it in the first place. >> Yeah. And I think some of that's going to depend on the court system in place and and kind of again how much investment the the county attorney has made in this process. Um I I know that in Henipin and Ramsey County there um staff members following these cases and and alerting to like when when they're up for petitioning versus another state where it might just end, right? and they might just go to their licensed firearm dealer and say, "My petition is over. I want my guns back." And so there's a lot of unevenness throughout the state. Um, but that would be a really good question for is it Don Bats? Do my room back. Yeah, >> thank you. >> Those are really great questions as well. I have a followup for it. I'll go to Chair Johnson. >> Okay. Thank you. Um, and just just for my awareness as well, if we were looking to just get the data on, you know, the amounts of these uh petitions granted in Ramsey County. Um, would we reach out to the attorney's office then for that data? >> You um I'm a little hard of hearing. I'm sorry. That's >> Yeah. So, I just was wondering like if we wanted to know the numbers of just like how many are issued here in Ramsey County, here within the city of St. um you know would we get that from the attorneys this the county attorney's office? >> Yeah, Don Bax would have that as well as Chris Tolbert I think is doing is the in the office as well. Um and then the violence prevention project would have like more statewide data too so you can kind of compare and contrast um and I can try I can get some of that information to you as well. >> Okay. And then I guess as a followup, I just, you know, especially with the previous presentation that I have in mind is just I'm wondering if this is automatically something that is pursued in a instance where someone has also fired a firearm or hurt someone. Um, are they automatically put into this category or is that something that you it's like a separate petition uh process? Just wondering if you're coming before a court attorney, you know, for a non-fatal shooting um and now you're suspect in that case, which I would argue puts you at a risk of, you know, of harming someone, but also prove that maybe you have uh and you're awaiting this period of time. Is that something that's automatically put in place or do you have to be is someone have to petition for you to be in that category? >> Law enforcement or county attorney would have to petition for that for that next step and show this prepoundonderance of evidence um of escalating behavior and and access to a you know, a lethal weapon. um that would have been a very good question. [laughter] >> Sure. >> Um earlier, but I don't know that they automatically get put in that same bucket. Um but that it it is still a tool that is at law enforcement's disposal for sure. >> And just one final question, chair. Thank you. Um, I guess just for like family members too and people who are maybe wondering about like, okay, my my loved one or my u uh client for some reason has received this petition and now I see that they're not able to walk around and purchase a gun, but they have I'm suspicious that they have a ghost gun with them or something that they've been able now to acquire during this petition time. What does that reporting process look like? What do you do in that situation? um you know where you're like I'm pretty sure you have a petition that you are not able to have a gun. All your guns were confiscated and somehow you now still are armed in some capability. What do I do then? >> Mhm. Well, and they're vulnerable themselves too. So, think about that like victim cooperation and it's just it's it's really hard. Um, and that's one of the reasons that so often my colleague in Henipin County has law enforcement take the evidence and the data from the the family and becomes the petitioner instead so that they can take some of that heat off of the the family member. Um, I mean, your option would be to report that to your county attorney and to report it to law enforcement. that's not always that doesn't always feel like a safe option for people for all very complicated reasons, but um they would be in violation of their their order. Um and there would be legal consequences for that. Yeah. Same as there would be if for violating other civil orders of increasing magnitude. >> Perfect. Well, I I have a follow-up question to that. I think well one of the good things about having this presentation is all your questions get answered before um but I I want to just say that I really appreciate this not only initiative but I do think you know this level of response also allows for families to you know make that call and allows for law enforcement to interact and provide safety in a noncriminal response. I think that's one of the highlights um you know from from this response versus the non-fatal shooting unit to where you know you give people the opportunities to make that time to have those rehabilitation um services and also it's not as not punitive but it doesn't have the same level of stigma right and um I think you know especially being um a family member or a friend or a neighbor especially someone who's been you know impacted by gun violence you know the the biggest thing that we want is to ensure that our our friend, our neighbor, you know, our family member has help. Um, and sometimes our justice, you know, department, our justice response doesn't allow, you know, for that. So, >> if there's any other questions, I know you have um a couple more slides to go, but I did want to ask particularly around um funding. I understand that there was like the the legislation that passed allows for us to have this um um noncriminal response or the civil court's response, but I'm really um uh curious around is there like you know direct funding or permanent funding that's coming from the state or is this all like volunteer based in terms of like being outreach Yeah. that you're providing? Um Gretchen has the exact numbers um that were attempted to be passed in the bill for an awareness campaign. Um it did not pass for the same reasons that the larger gun violence prevention bill did not pass. Um it passed in the House, but it never got brought to a vote in the House. And so we do not currently have additional funding for herbal awareness. Um a lot of money was allocated from the bipartisan safer communities act under President Biden. um that lives with the department of public safety. Um and so there are they are working on a general implementation and kind of maintaining um I don't call it like a focus group but they have a monthly meeting with different um partners throughout the state working on heros um both outreach implementation um the processing of them identifying some of the like questions that you all brought up in terms of like potential pitfalls um and they had some suggestions they called them like cleanup um provisions to the bill just to make it more effective um But none of that passed this last session. Um and so for right now, um apart from the funding that the Department of Public Safety has for getting the word out, it is based on volunteer efforts and um from the gun violence prevention coalition. So it's a it's one of our biggest priorities, especially after annunciation. You you can't no one can prove that, but like that would have been an ideal situation. like um we know that in instances of mass shootings um it is always telegraphed ahead of time. There are always red flags. People are talking about their intents um and people are watching that downward spiral and often know that there there are there is access to weapons. But somebody who saw the red signs did not know about herposs or did not feel like they could access them. Um and that could have averted such a tragedy. So um that's what we're trying to prevent every day. >> Thank you. I just uh thanks Cher. Um Kathleen, you just made me think of another question. Um and I I don't think the heros would apply to this, but what if you have a situation where there's someone that is in crisis and maybe they don't own a gun, but they have access to a gun in their household that is registered to someone else. >> Yeah. Usually people think about it with youth um and adults. So, so, so then it would be on whoever that gun owner is to make sure that they're safely storing because this only applies to like a person and their own guns. Is that correct? >> Y and there are cases where parents have been >> it's like the petitioners and then trying to think of what the name is for the >> respondent. Um, but that is pretty rare and people are try to avoid that for obvious reasons as much as possible. The goal would be, for example, if school counseling identifies that there's a 16-year-old that's in or approaching crisis and has made explicit threats that the they're involving the parents and the parents are voluntarily reducing access um if they again are unwilling to ano order against the parents um could be indicated. >> Okay. >> And I have another question as well. um you had mentioned um that you know on the website that um they can either um file a petition or reach out to law enforcement. Uh have you seen any uh response that's coming through like 911 calls? Because I imagine if someone maybe an immediate of the moment um is you know calling 911 and you know maybe dispatching a law enforcement to make this type of extreme risk protection order but may not want to actually you know uh um support like an arrest. Mhm. >> I'm just wondering if like if we if there's been any trainings with the dispatch. >> That would be a really good question for my my friend that works in Henipin County because I'm sure she would get a lot of those. I feel like people would mostly be referred um to the attorney's office to to file it. Um I don't think that there is I'm not familiar with the relationship between heros and emergency services. Um >> but that is a really good question. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I just asked just cuz you know I I would assume the attorney's office probably is like a 9 to5 you know like bank hours like what about like the weekends and if someone wants to file this petition or >> if they want to like get immediate help um and get this on the radar if there's like a a correlation or a a collaboration between our emergency services. I know here in St. Paul, we work with Ramsey County um as our dispatch and then Hipin County also with Minneapolis. So, that's good to know. Um >> I know that was one of the cleanup um and it was also for for DV compliance cuz that's a a related process for um restraining orders and having guns confiscated. Um in some uh counties you have a judge who will respond to everything within 24 hours and in other counties you don't. And so again, there's just inconsistencies throughout the throughout the state. Um but just making sure that people have um have access to that removal within 48 hours because it is an emergency and in a true emergency 48 hours feels like way too long and so it's still not perfect. Yeah. >> Perfect. >> Well, I also just wanted to ask um well, one just want to say I appreciate Gretchen um from you know, Moms and Man Action. You're you're here with us. Um Gretchen had a chance to make it to one of my office hours and had shared not only um in inviting all of us to um share this in our newsletters and our social medias um but also invite you um to hear and give a a broader um presentation. But before we um close out, is there anything that you need from us in terms of to help amplify and get the word out? Like how can we best support as council members to make sure we get this resource out to our community? >> Yeah. Um great question. I think just proactive sharing about one thing you can do or extremist protection orders, sharing about um secure storage uh devices being available through Ramsey County Attorney's Office um and Department of Public Safety. Um we the Ramsey count John Choy got gunlock distribution at several libraries um and community centers throughout Ramsey County. Um, so just emphasizing like secure storage, why that matters. Um, and if there's ever a timely opportunity to just like remind people of these tools. Um, we talk a lot with St. Paul public schools about um, you know, the number one thing that families can do to prevent guns on school campus is practice secure storage in the home. And even as early as this last fall, you know, when I reminded um administration about that, they were like, "Well, we're seeing a lot of like guns that are coming because they were stolen from cars." And I'm like, "Okay, we're so close." Like, [laughter] >> guns are not being stored securely in cars and they're being stolen from cars and then they're making it to school campus, you know? So, like whether you have children in the home or not, you need to be practicing secure storage in your homes and your vehicles to prevent gun theft um and then guns from entering the circulation um amongst people that should not have them, namely youth or people that have um are prohibited from having them or are in crisis. >> Wonderful. I have a question from President Ner. >> Thanks, Touy. I just wanted to follow up on that to say in in the case of secure storage, that's not just a recommendation. That's the law in St. Paul. Thanks to actually >> thank you for reminding us. >> You were saying it but I just wanted to double down. Um and I honestly nothing makes me well things make me prouder but it makes me really proud to drive into Victory Parking Ramp every morning and see that sign that says um and that was also Mom's Demand Action's idea that it's not enough just to pass an ordinance because if people drive into St. Paul from somewhere else and don't know that that's the ordinance and they already have their gun well then they're in a bad place. So to have um the signage that clearly lets people know that you can't just leave your gun unsecured in your car. Um to your point, we are trying to get farther and farther farther upstream of this issue every every act that we pass. So just kudos to you. >> Thank you. >> And then Chair Johnson. >> Yes. Thank you, Chair. And um thank you, Kathleen, for being here today as well. And I echo the same kind of sentiments as the council president. Uh, you know, I was sitting here and I'm listening and I'm going through the the presentation and I one of the things that I just recognized as well is that the work of Mom's Dem Demand Action, especially here in St. Paul, but all across the state, you know, really has put us on the brink of some monumental changes to our um to gun reform in ways that I think we were really actually on the brink, especially as a statewide level with some disappointing pieces this legislation, but def this legislature uh process and this session. I think though the continued advocacy, the hours spent, the time spent, the advocacy that has been received, right? This is um I think has been consistent over the years, but definitely especially over the last few have just been really intentional and I and I hope that there's progress within the team. Just I know sometimes when you're fighting the good fight, it can be very tiring to do so. And also just in general like we know that the work that you all are doing translates to saving more and more lives each year. Um I do think that we are you know I think to the piece of just some of the bipartisanship nature um of the slides that you've even shared right that's a very hard thing to accomplish right now and a very polarized um legislature but also time in our history politically. And so I think, you know, I just want to offer a couple of words of affirmation when it comes to just like I truly do think that we are on the brink of something um intentional and we have to move through a couple more uh members uh in the House and um in the Senate, but I definitely think through at the local level too. you've gotten the ears of many mayors, many city council members across the regions, across the state in ways that I don't think I've seen before. Uh because um individuals that are working within Mom's Demand Action are regular everyday people who just really care about the safety of our community, the safety of our kids, and the safety of our families. And so I hope that there are wins despite some of these things. And when you hear from the non-fatal shooting unit, and some of the investments that are even made with the amount of work and investments cities are making, at least here in St. hall to try and mitigate that and to respond to both non-fatal and fatal shootings that are happening in our city that those are results truly because of the work that you all do. And so just want to say thank you while I can while you're in front of us here, but also for being even able to share this with our office so we could share this out. Um and just reminding people that they too play a role in how um safe our communities are with something just as simple as how you're storing your gun at home. um that educational piece is really important or even in your cars when you're going somewhere and I think that that we don't necessarily always think about the you know the small things we can do every day to prevent the large tragic um things that our communities have endured for decades. So thank you. >> No, thank you. Yeah, that's one of my favorite parts is that we talk about how we work in gun violence prevention education and advocacy. It's it's both parts and we've been getting a lot of like condolences over the last week and a half and and I'm like I we built so much power over this last year. Like I'm not feeling I'm disappointed and I'm determined, you know, we're going to keep going, but I I always need affirmations. So, thank you. [laughter] >> And then we have Council Member Kim. >> Yeah, I appreciate that. Um because the comprehensive gun um common sense gun laws made it through the Senate, one chamber but not the other. Um, and so if folks are interested in door knockocking this summer, I'll be out knocking doors. >> Um, it's less of a reflection of the content, but just uh to add to the appreciation, thank you so much for being here. I think there's also maybe some melancholic poeticism, but today is Melissa Hortman's birthday, >> so it's very poignant that we're having this um these topics to come to the council today. So, >> happy birthday, Melissa. >> Happy birthday. >> No, absolutely. No, thank you so much for um highlighting that cuz that's I mean when we think about the champion she was at the house and just even this really difficult session um and it was I mean it was really just you know I would say just disappointing that you know the business of saving lives and you know for people who like decided to sign up and become policy makers um when we think about how we're actually benefiting improving lives and saving lives that should never be a partisan issue. It should never be a partisan issue. It should never be a rural versus metro issue. Um, everyone has a a loved one that's worth protecting. So, I just want to say thank you so much for the work that you've been doing. Um, I have been at a series of panels not only hosted by Moms Demand Action, but the coalition of pro protect Minnesota has built over the time. Um, we are also, you know, committed and dedicated to making sure that this shows up in our legislative agenda to ensuring that our values are also matching like the fight that's happening at the state level as well. And there's any ways that we can partner whether it's our showing up to our office hours or showing up to um our um um community conversations that we're having, you know, please um you know, I just want to say appreciate your your partnership. So with that um we also um are coming to a close here. Um I want to just reiterate you know right before we end that there's also resources and materials that's been dispersed to all of us. I'm committed to ensuring that that's always going to be in my newsletter um which goes out monthly. Uh we can you know have conversations of what it looks like maybe using our city councilwide um communications um um those materials be dispersed through that. social medias as well. Um, but again, thank you Kathleen so much for your time and also thank you Gretchen for always being a champion and just making sure that we get these resources in front of us. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much. Have a wonderful day. Take care. So, in closing, um, I just wanted to highlight, uh, we have five more public safety committee meetings the end of this year or for the rest of this year. Uh, I just wanted to just like highlight assistant mayor Schumacher and also assistant mayor Baker has been phenomenal making sure we get topics. But if there's topics that's led by either a vice chair or even um other council members that you want to use this time to explore either external partners or um some programs that's happening in the city, please let me know. Uh we would like to get that ahead of time, at least have a a month notice um on that. So but again thank you so much for your participation everyone. Okay we are a joined >> yeah one