Uh my name is Mark Zer. I'm the accessibility coordinator for the city of St. Paul. Um I work out of the hero department. >> Thank you. And uh this is the July uh edition of the equity and inclusion speaker series. July is disability pride month. Um and Saturday we celebrate the 34th anniversary of the signing of the ADA, the Americans with Disabilities Act. uh landmark civil rights legislation that continues to shape a more inclusive and equitable society. Uh while disability pride is a celebration, it's also about reflection and action. Reflecting on where we've been, how far we've come, and how far we have yet to go. As City of St. Paul employees and members of our boards and commissions, we all play a role in recognizing and dismantling ingrained abbleism in the work we do and the services that we all provide. Abbleism is usually not intentional and is not always visible, but it does have the very real effect of keeping people from access accessing the spaces, services, programs, and information that the city works so hard to provide. Combating abbleism means asking hard questions about our policies, practices, and assumptions, and committing to meaningful change. Our first speaker today has a long and impressive history with the city. among her many other accolades, she's the first person who recognized the need for his designated accessibility coordinator in the city, my role today. Um, and she saw an opportunity not not just to meet the low standards of the ADA, but to rise above them and look beyond them as a city. Please welcome the director of our talent and equity resources department, Tony Newborn. >> Much for the introduction, uh, Tony Newborn, pronouns she, her, hers. I serve as a director of talent and equity resources. And I want to say a few things. So glad to see this like area filled with folks. This Thank you for coming to this. I've been with the city. It just marked my uh 10 year anniversary. Um July 13th and I can't believe it. Um and uh can y'all hear me? >> Little louder. Okay. A little louder. I feel like I'm screaming. Um but I know that I'm not. So I'll go I'll be a little bit closer to the microphone. Oo, okay. Now I I see the difference. So I it just marked my 10 year anniversary with the city. Started in July 13th on July 13th in 2015 and have been here and survived ever since. Uh a little bit of background about me. I um before coming to this city, I worked for the other city, the city of Minneapolis. I know, I know. Worked for the city of Minneapolis and I was uh in the complaint investigations division for the civil right at the civil rights department. And so we did we investigated complaints of discrimination there. So I've been in the civil rights, human rights, social justice, diversity, equity, inclusion, now human resources space for a long time. I guess combined both years. We're talking about 17 years in in local government and in these spaces. Um I do want to add that um part of my tenure, a lot of people laugh about me because I've had different jobs at the city uh in these last 10 years. years. I started out in HR and then uh Mayor Carter was elected and then was served as a chief equity officer and then uh then a brief stint in in Hero for about a year. I was looking at uh my uh some updates. I made some changes on my LinkedIn page around that time and I was like oh it was like exactly a year and in that year's time it was a lot of transition happening in hero and the first thing one of the first things that was on my desk to to handle so to speak was the newly creation this creation of the accessibility coordinator position. So, I do want to say while I was involved, folks came and talked to me about like, hey, we're going to create this new position. Um, the decision was was made prior to me coming in as the interim director to have that position, but I was able to I had the fun part of actually filling it. And so, that was one of the first things that was on my desk. And, uh, we started the interview process, you know, our boring hiring process that everybody loves. Uh we did that and we I got a chance to sit on the interview panel because I was passionate about um making sure that we with all of our positions that we are bringing in folks with diverse background and I mean diversity from his broadest sense and folks who have lived experience and in particular for this position having someone with lived experience uh in this role and opening our eyes both internal to the city as as well as external to the city on um what what uh disability is from its broadest sense because sometimes we have in and you all know invisible uh disabilities and then oftent times and then there's times where we have folks who are visibly uh uh uh um their able uh ability is is visible and so um I wanted to be intentional around who we brought in and we hired lots of different folks um or we interviewed lots of different folks for the position. And we ended up going with um TJ. I don't remember TJ's last name. This Middlebrook. He's my Facebook friend. I see him. He's had a lot of great jobs. TJ um was amazing at the job. And TJ was um uh limited in hearing and he was deaf. And so um a lot of folks then not a lot of people, but some people that were on the team were like, "Tony, what are we going to do?" I'm like, "What do you mean what are we going to do?" We're going to ask him what he needs. like we're the human rights department. We're going to ask him what he needs and we're going to do it. So, it wasn't something that was like difficult to to process for me at least. But I understand I understood at the time that it was going to be a change. And once he was hired and of course offered and accepted the position, we sat down as a leadership team to figure out after talking with him figuring out, okay, what does TJ need to be an employee? Because TJ had worked in various uh offices and I think he came from the state. So there's a way. We just needed to spend the time to figure it out and we did. um it costs money to do it and sometimes when you have people in based off of their various needs and that's for all of us we may have to pay for it and uh TJ educated us on said okay TJ how do we there were so many things that I didn't even think about right uh I didn't think about how TJ was going to be in a cube so someone who is deaf heart of hearing how do you come up to them and have a conversation and things that we just like do for folks who are who don't have a disability related to hearing we I didn't even think about so I had to ask him and so he he he educated us on how to do that so instead of coming from behind him you know to to to talk right he said to come in front of the queue I was like oh that makes sense cuz TJ could read lips so although we couldn't have like a if you're talking fast or there multiple people talking in the room that we needed to bring in an interpreter. Um, but just a one-on-one conversation, TJ was fine, but you couldn't. It was the equivalent of sneaking up on someone from behind. And like I'm if I'm into my work, even if I'm in my desk, if someone comes up from behind me, it's scary. Like I'm scared. It takes me a while, my heart rate goes up. So imagine someone every time someone does that, their heart rate is going up and they're like scared. So TJ talked to us about okay here's how to approach me at the desk also how do we do meetings you know big meetings like this um in person because this is precoid so 2019 and then how do we meet with folks multiple people even smaller meetings sometimes depending on the meeting TJ would be okay with on reading lips but other times uh like a large meeting like this what he advised us to do was to sit in the square, not circle, sit in a square for our meetings. And then that way as we're talking and and to kind of slow down our pace too because he's reading libs that he could understand what was going on. We needed to have a printed agenda like everything. And of course you you're supposed to do that for all meetings, but you know sometimes all of us just go to a meeting like okay what are we talking about? We couldn't do that in the same way as uh we would you know do before. And so it changed how we met. It changed how we engaged with each other. It we changed uh the TJ's presence changed us from a standpoint of how he interacted with folks outside of the human rights department. And so for me it was it was fascinating. I don't mean that from like um a negative standpoint of like oh I'm now you know evolved because we have TJ in the room but it taught me a lot. It taught me about other everyone's abilities to be able to and and way modes of communication. All of us communicate in a different way or need some level of communication uh uh given to us in a different way. And it made me think about from an equity standpoint how to reach people where they're at. And if you think about it, I know equity is not a a buzz term uh in a negative way with the state of our world in this country, but if you think about equity, even before this current administration, um the dis the disability act, the Americans with Disability Act and disability work just in general is equity work. Anytime you walk into a grocery store and you have an automatic door, that is is a result of the work of advocates coming in and saying, "Hey, I can't open the door. There are people in this country who can't open the door." Anytime you walk down a a walkway or a corner and those little bubbled uh uh flooring, I don't even know what it's called. So, for the folks in public works, correct me if I'm wrong. Correct me. Please help me please. But anytime you see that, that's to keep people from rolling out into the street. It also helps me because I have a a 10-month-old and I have a toddler who still kind of gets into the in into the stroller. So, it helps me as well as the person who is in in a wheelchair, um, a person who may be blind. It helps all of us. So if we if we focus on equity, we focus on making sure that all of us can can um provide have the services and and and and meet our needs, but it also helps the people who are in need. And so um but we don't think we don't connect that. We connect equity or diversity and all these things. It's like some sort of abortion or somebody's getting a handout. But we have people in the room who can't survive unless we change our environment and we change our world or we adjust. And we I want them to survive. I want them to be a part of our our workforce and a part of our meetings. And with specifically with TJ, I wanted him to feel comfortable in being able to be a member of the team and not standing out, but he stood out. He stood out, but also he could be a part of our team as well. that you can have both things all at the same time. And so I wanted that for him. And so we adjusted and it was goofy. Some people did goofy things. Some people went up to him like, "Hello, they're screaming." Like, "He can't hear you. He still can't hear you." Even if you're screaming, that that's not how it works, right? You're screaming is not going to make him start hearing. But we because of our lack of experience with folks who have different abilities, we think in our mind that oh, we're gonna do this and this is what's going to help them. No, you need to ask him first. So that's like one of the the first step, ask him and then use some level of common sense. And so for me, uh, having him there for the time that the time that I was there because he outlasted me because I was it was a short stint. having him there challenged me and I and I believe or I don't know if there are any folks in the room who were with me when I was was there. Um I think it challenged all of us to to think about how we come into our space and how we include people into our spaces and be intentional around it. And so, yes, sometimes I talked about the visibility and invisibility and disabilities. And sometimes you you you see someone that's like, "Oh, I can see that they need help, but sometimes we won't we don't know that they'll need help." And unless they tell you or how about this, we be intentional around like we understand that there are people in this world that may need additional support or may may need a different type of support than what we're used to. So we create our spaces, we create our environments with that intention. Um both folks for the folks who we visibly see and folks who we were is not as visible. Um and so I uh and I know I got a lot of slack. I saw the bill that that uh you know I had to approve the bills and the payments that it took for us for TJ to to be able to do uh his work and for us to be able to communicate with TJ and I got a little bit of slack like Tony I'm like well we're doing it and so we got to figure out how to pay for it because there's not an option that we don't right um don't opt out of including people into your spaces the option is to bring them in as as best as we can and being uh in intentional around that. And we also talked about, you know, I didn't I wanted to be careful with like putting DJ on this pedestal saying like this person with disability, let's put stars and you know, highlight around them. I didn't want to do that, but I also wanted to be in a space of where, hey TJ, can you can you give us some tools that we can use to to better um to to create an inclusive work environment. And so without like using him to do that, to be that spokesperson, TJ did that. He gave us tools. He had worked at the state. I contacted people at the state and said, "Hey, how did you do this?" Um we uh we attempted to there were some staff who attempted to learn uh not learn fully sign language, right? But just some things like thank you and you know other hello or whatever else. So again all these type of symbols and acts to ensure that TJ felt comfortable and felt included. Um and so while uh you know that is TJ's you know this position and TJ coming into the city was such a value ad to the city it also showcases like how we can do this for all of us. And so you may or may not have a disability. It may not be you know something that that fits into a certain category but all of us are different people and have different needs. And when I think about equity, when I think about fairness and justice and all of that, that's what I'm thinking about. Like this person needs something different than me. And that's okay if I offer that person an accommodation. Not from a legal standpoint, but I mean that sometimes too, but I offer that person accommodation so that they can be successful in their work. And we need to be thinking about as progressive as the city of St. Paul is um and the Twin Cities in general, we need this position, accessibility coordinator position to ensure that we are intentional and that folks feel like, hey, I see something wrong. I mean, we got, you know, I used to, it was, I would chuckle with some of the work that was brought to me from TJ and their team around um our parks and uh our parks facilities and some of our other facilities that I didn't even think about that we were it wasn't even on my radar. And so, we needed we needed that position there. We needed TJ. We needed Mark. We need Mark. Not needed. we need uh Mark and others to be to design and have a plan to how um to create and ensure that the city is being intentional in the work. So I challenge you all and I hope I'm answering all the questions. So please like uh uh help me with uh with the questions as well. But I challenge you all to think about when we talk about equity, we talk about inclusion and all the diversity and all those things. The Americans with Disability Act, they've been doing that. That was the intention the whole time. And when you think about disability, that is equity work. You're literally designing schools systems, programs, uh, environments, facilities with equity in mind, meeting people where they're at. And again, we separate that because it's like, oh, it's it's for people who are blind. Oh, it's for people who are harder of hearing, it's people who are in a wheelchair. It's people whatever. But like, no, it's for actually for all of us. And we all take advantage of the the amenities or the restructuring of spaces to help us survive and be easier, but it's in particular for the people who need it. And so my challenge to you all is to continue to be intentional around your office environments and the spaces that you create and uh uh that is a way of continuing this work and you will have a better work environment. The studies all show if you're intentional in how in the spaces that you create, intentional with people in mind, their humanity in mind, not from like, you know, people like to use all these political words around socialism and whatever else or handouts, whatever. It's just for people to survive. It really is for people to like be able to do to live in this country, to live in the space, to work in the space. And I don't know about you all, I want that. I want for folks to be able to do what they need to do and have what they need to have. I don't see that as a challenge. I don't see that like, oh, if they have it, then I don't. Well, I don't need it. Like, I don't need that. So, if you need it, I want you to have it. And so think about like the role that you play in your respective work environments and how you can be intentional around creating a work environment that is inclusive, that's positive, that is growthminded, wanting people to grow, wanting people to be respected, wanting to people to be included in the space and feeling welcome. And that takes work. That's not just like, oh, we had a potluck and so everybody feels that they're included. Potlooks is fine. food is good. Um, but it takes more more than that. And don't take for granted that folks are okay. So, you have to create the spaces to say like, are people okay? And if they say no, ask them what they need. This is very simple stuff. There's nothing complicated about this, but we make it we make it complicated because maybe our experience has been limited. Um, maybe we haven't been around other people, whatever that may mean for you. And so I challenge you also, I teach at St. Thomas and we we have a a diversity course, right, of the class and I always like to do something different. But I tell people and not from a performative standpoint, but I talk to my students about hang around other people that are different from you. So yeah, we're talking about race, of course. Yes, we're talking about gender, of course, but political views, I know, shocking. um religious views. Um hang around people who are different from you, who see the world differently from you. And I guarantee you that you it will it will be educational for you and you will see the world and engage in the world in a different way because you've had that experience. But if you don't have that experience, then you get into this kind of like, well, maybe we want to save the poor people or save those people over there. They don't need you saving them. they need for you to create make sure that we're creating a space so that they can be a part of it in addition to you. And so, but that takes that takes effort. If you look around in your spaces and everybody looks like you or are able-bodied people like you, um, change that up because otherwise we we're not going to be able to create the environment that we want. We're not and that's both socially I'm talking about at home too. home, your home environment influences what you do at work and vice versa. So, home, social, church, all of those things. uh whatever wherever you're at, religious or not religious, where you go out for the breweries, whatever that looks like for you, ensure that your environment is not homogeneous because I think that's one of the ways that this world and the state of the world um will change that that we're in will change until that happens collectively largely and I'm talking about in number we're going to be continue to be in the space that we're in where everybody's in in a box or we live on one side of the river or one side of the neighborhood. We'll continue to be in the places where we feel comfortable and we have to challenge ourselves to think outside of our environment and our comfort level and get comfortable with other and whatever that means for you. And so that is something, yeah, I served as a chief equity officer and the work that I'm in right now, but that's something that I continue to work on. If I look around, I'm like, oh, I have it. I need to make sure that I like what where's my friend circle here. Where am I am I meeting people of a different religion than me? Um, race and gender, yes, all of those things. But it goes beyond that. There's a lot of intersections between that, challenging yourself. And so yes, we started with uh here the accessibility coordinator and we had folks who were had lived um um experience and that was such a eyeopening moment for us and I hope that hearing you know my experience and what we had in my short stand in hero and thinking about our spaces my hope is that you'll start to think about like hey you know we do a lot of powerpoints do we need captions on those we're doing a lot of whatever do we need to change that because some people may not like to see hear my voice the whole time maybe they want to read it whatever whatever that looks like start changing your spaces and I guarantee you that it's going to create a positive inclusive work environment I appreciate y'all having me here and I'll pass it over back over to to Mark if that works >> I'm excited to introduce our next guest a person who has dedicated her career to champion championing accessibility, social justice, and disability justice. She's also has she also has a career that includes time with the Minnesota Department of Human Rights, Department of Transportation, and a Bush a Bush Fellowship. She's currently the chief program officer at the Ark Minnesota, an organization that does transformative work within our communities. Please welcome my Thor. >> Well, thank you, Mark. um want to thank you and the rest of your team and the city of St. Paul for uh hosting this event today and inviting me and uh the rest of the other speakers. Um it's truly a a real pleasure to be here with all of you today. Um so I'm Mai and I am the chief program officer with the Ark Minnesota. And um I'll tell you a little bit more about what the ark is in just a second, but just so I have a good idea of who's in the room. How many of y'all are like in public works? Oh, stop being shy. Raise your hand. Hi. Okay. Okay. Uh what about other folks? HR. A lot of folks from HR. Throw out some other departments that you're with. finance. >> Oh, we we like you guys, but we don't know what you do, but you're important. Uh, what else? >> Public health. >> Public health. Oh, awesome. Great. Anything else? >> Library. >> Library. >> Parks. Great. All right. So, >> human rights. >> Human rights. Yes. Beth in the back. Yeah. So, great. That's a good mix of of folks. And I'm sure there are other probably areas of focus uh represented today from the city of St. Paul. Um I am a resident of St. Paul, just so you know. Um and I don't like crossing the river to that other place. So um yeah. Um so like I said, I am the chief program officer with ARC Minnesota. Um I'm still very new to ARC. I was actually um as Mark mentioned a little bit, I I was with the state of Minnesota for about 10 years. Um about three and a half was spent at the Department of Human Rights. Um where I worked a little bit with Beth and you know, I'm sure you all have worked with Beth in some capacity. Um so you I think we all know how she is, right? Right. No, she's amazing. She's amazing. I love Beth. Um, so and then, um, yeah, so I've been with ARC for about seven months now. And, um, so what do I do at ARCs? Um, I I oversee all of our programs. And so, um, that, um, really just means that there are a bunch of staff who do all the work and I just sort of like get updates from them. Um, but I'll tell you a little bit about what our programs are. So there are three of them. Um we have our public policy um program. We have our advocacy and community engagement program. And then we also have um our contract services uh uh program um which includes various contracts that we hold through either the state of Minnesota or other other places. Um and so that includes work that involves housing and employment. We've got a a really robust micro grant program um where we issue out small grant grant money to people with disabilities to reach their employment or housing goals. Um we have um a program called the Minnesota uh inclusion initiative which is also another grant program um a micro grant program where we um issue out grant money to disability organizations that are ran by and for people with disabilities. Um and we also have our regional quality councils um which are stationed throughout the the state. Um ARC is a statewide organization and um so those councils exist through statute to um you know um be able to address um issues in their community when um PE with that are impacting people with disabilities. So, um it the those council consist of like probably local government um people who work for you know who work for local government um case workers um obviously disabled people themselves, family members, things like that. So there, as you can tell, there's a lot going on at ARC. Um, I would say that, um, we have a lot of, uh, work that's forward- facing that you're probably most more familiar with, um, which might include our policy work because we're very active, um, every year at the legislature, um, advocating for good, uh, legislation that helps people with disabilities and opposing, uh, legislation that might harm people with disabilities. Um, but we also have three Value Village thrift stores. One in uh New Hope. Got to cross the river. I'm sorry guys. New Hope, Bloomington, and Richfield. So, if you're ever out and about and you're want you wanting to go thrifting, choose Value Village because you know your money is going to a good cause. Um, so that's a little bit about Ark. Um, and I don't know what am I supposed to answer, Mark? Do I have a question? So, I I guess I just um you know, I I'll say that, you know, I've worked a lot with local government um in the past. You know, I used to work at the Metropolitan Council doing regional uh long long range regional planning. Uh my focus was community engagement and at the time that I worked at the Met Council, they had just rolled out their um equity plan, right? um and how to achieve equity uh throughout the metropolitan region. Um, and so I was connecting quite often with communities, um, going out into the communities and meeting with with people. Um, you know, especially when it involved um, you know, going into neighborhoods and developing uh, neighborhoods and um, you know, making making, you know, creating uh, facilities of some kind or other, whether it was a transit facility or um, you know, just a a pedestrian walkways, those kind bike uh, pathways. I was involved in all of that and did engagement in all of that. Um, so I know a little bit about, you know, especially for those of you who who are in public works, um, you know, looking at, um, things through an equity lens and in particular a disability, uh, lens. Um, and so then I went to, um, human rights for a little bit. Um, and after that I actually went to Mindot and continued some of the work that I did on um, accessibility and inclusion and equity um, with MDOT. And it it's kind of amazing because it's a small world in the transportation world, right, and public works world. I always run into people that I know. Um, and every time I am in circles where gatherings like this happen, um, but they're all like, you know, transit and transportation people and public works people, we always talk about equity, right? We always talk about inclusion. We always talk about, well, how can we do things better? Um, or how can we, you know, create something um to to enhance um our equity? um to enhance, you know, being welcoming and inclus inclusive in our communities. And every year it was the same conversation. Um and um I think one of the things that I feel like is real key when you're um in public service, no matter what it is, whether you're in finance or HR or public works or whatever, right? Um, I think, you know, you have to go into it with the mindset of like you need to include the people who are most impacted in the work that you're doing in order to be able to do it right. Right. And um, leadership of the most impacted is actually uh, one of the principles in disability justice. And you know, if those of you who aren't familiar with disability justice, I can explain that to you uh, later. I'm sure it might come up um, when we have our panel anyway. But um that's really important because I think we get caught up in the work that we do every day and we get caught up in the red tape and the technicalities and the codes and the compliance and all that that we forget that we're actually like you know the work that we do impacts like actual people's lives like because we're all humans and you know I've been in a room full of like transit people before And you know, my message to the transit world is it's not about buses. It's not about trains. It's not about um you know, the light rail and how they look and how they feel inside and the layout and what station is where and stuff. It's about people, right? People getting where to where they need to be. It's about people accessing their community. people needing to just like be, you know, be able to live their lives that they uh that they want to live. And so when you involve leadership of the most impacted in the work that you do from the very beginning, um then I think you're off to a good start, right? And um you know lots of times in the work that I've done in um um planning uh communication and planning um you know disability is like an afterthought. You know it's not um uh involved at the very beginning. People with disabilities are not you know they we don't have a space at the table usually. And you know, I've seen it with my very own eyes where um you know, plans are put in place and like a prototype will be, you know, uh will be created um and it's presented. Um and it's like okay, but where are the accessibility features, right? Well, that they weren't there because nobody bothered to talk to people with disabilities to begin with. Um and so I think that you know you have to really um integrate that intentionally and you know be mindful of that um because the only people who understand what their needs are the most are the people who are actually living with those experiences right and it's the same with people with disabilities. Um you know we we know how you we know what we need. We know our we know our access needs. We know what we need as far as accommodations, um all that stuff. Um we know we we need to get across the street, right? Um and that and that could include a number of things, whether it's a curb cut or whatever, right? But um you're not you're not going to be able to do it right unless you ask people with disabilities. Um and I know that St. Paul has um done lots of things in the past where you're uh you're you know going through neighborhoods and you're developing and things like that. Um and I've I've been a part of some of that work too. You know I've been invited in certain spaces with the city of St. fall to do like focus groups or to just engage with community members. And um you know I I would encourage you to continue to do that but like to even like double your efforts um because right now um it's a kind of a scary time for people with disabilities, right? And um we're feeling like we're being shut out and we're feeling vilified right now. Um, and so I think right now more than ever is a time when um, we're going to be leaning on all of you to understand that we need to work collaboratively and to be able to, you know, um, be partners from beginning to end and obviously throughout, right? So, um, yeah, and you know, Mark talked about, you know, the the the notion of the ADA and how it's, um, obviously a landmark civil rights law that changed, um, the lives of people with disabilities. I remember life without the ADA because I'm that old. Um, but life was tough, right? Life was tough without the ADA and I love the ADA. I love the fact that, you know, um it was a law that a lot of people with disabilities uh fought very hard to get passed. Um but it is just the bare minimum. Okay? And you know, I want you all to remember that um in Minnesota, we're very lucky because we actually set um set very high standards, right? um as far as accessibility um requirements on top of what ADA already um outlines, right? So, I think we're doing good on that front, but as you as we are seeing uh being played out in real time in this moment in history, no matter what kind of law we got, it's always going to it's always at risk of being taken away, right? Of being defunded, of being just, you know, uh broken down. And so, um, I think, you know, we're again, we're going to lean on all of you to work with us on, you know, making sure that that doesn't happen, um, for our St. Paul residents and for everybody who lives in Minnesota. Um, because that that's a real thing. It's legit and it's a threat. Um, so yeah, just remember that the ADA is wonderful, but it is the bare minimum, and we always want to shoot for going above and beyond what's outlined in the ADA. Um, and and also, you know, just to go back to what the ADA was intended for, you know, in the spirit of the AD, I think the ADA gets lost in all of the uh technical requirements. Um and you know ADA does help improve the lives of people with disabilities but the spirit uh in which it was created was you know inclusion and you know protection um and um you know just making sure that people with disabilities are seen uh equal under the law and with along with other protected classes, right? Um but you know I think the spirit of that really mean what does that really mean? It means that um you know I think we are people who you know deserve to live our lives the way we want it to we want to live. Um but at the same time um you know we also struggle in that and um we need that we need that law that policy in order to boost our protection right um but also I think you know a lot of people don't understand that the ADA even though in the spirit that it was created was for full inclusion it actually um has posed problems for folks who um are marginalized um you know in in addition to having disabilities they maybe identify with other you know um classes including gender, race, all that sort of stuff. Um and I think a lot of people forget that disability is an identity just as people identify with their race or their gender or you know whatever. Um and ADA doesn't quite touch that piece of it, right? Because uh people with disabilities are not a monolith. We have multiple identities. Um you know, for myself, I identify as a disabled mong woman. And you know, I think the ADA doesn't touch some of those underlying identity issues that exist for all people with disabilities. um you know that we all have inherent value and that we're um not disposable and that we are all essential. Um so and that's more on disability justice, not disability rights. And so if you could kind of put those two together um as you continue to do the work that you do, which um you know we're all very appreciative of um I think that would be um a a really wonderful way to approach the work of accessibility. Um because there is the identity side of disability, but there is also that side uh that is more compliance and regulatory, right? Um, so we just have to bring that together. So I don't know what else to add. I mean, I feel like I rambled on. Um, but yeah, I'm sticking around for the whole for the whole uh for the whole thing today. So if you have questions for me, please uh ask whenever we have an opportunity. Otherwise, I'm going to turn it over back to Mark. Um, now some as some of you know and some of you have even worked directly with me on, uh, the city is in the midst of a major push toward improving accessibility across the board. Um, every city has what's called an ADA transition plan. It's kind of like what the city is planning on improving over the course of time. Um, normally the ADA uh improvements are usually pretty cut and dry things like curb cuts and handrails and you know bathroom stalls and things like that. All very important, all great. Um but what the ADA often fails to address um at least in the letter of the law is uh the hidden disabilities and the hidden barriers that um people face every day um beyond simple or not simple but beyond mobility considerations right there's all sorts of disabilities that that don't actually involve um one's mobility. So uh what St. Paul is trying to do at this point um is you know have a an ADA transition plan for every single one of your departments. Um all of your departments have an ADA liaison that works with me. Those liaison probably have uh teams within the department that are looking at not only the facilities um because some departments really don't have a public facing facility but the services that you provide, the programs that you run um the information that you put out. Um, and it is rare if uh I don't even think it exists at all for for every department within a city to have an ADA plan. So, so St. Paul is setting a pretty high bar um with the examples that we show. You know, there's no a like what does it mean for our water department to improve accessibility? You know, what does it mean for our financial services department to improve accessibility or our police um our libraries? You know, it's not just about the buildings themselves and the spaces that they are, but what do we do within those buildings? How do we serve the public? What are the programs that we plan for? Who are those programs for? And the answer should be for everyone, right? So, I want to have a panel discussion with a few representatives from our community. You met my, you've met Tony. Um, but I also want to introduce two more panelists, both of whom are on the mayor's advisory council for people with disabilities. Uh first, Francis Lane. She's a recent transplant to St. Paul from Connecticut. She's an active member at the uh MAC PD, and she's always looking to become more active in city programs. As someone who lost her sight later in life, she uses adaptive technology like screen readers to access info and to get around the city. And she's always sure to let me know where the barriers arise in our own city websites and information. So, she's been a very valuable um asset to us as a city to kind of point out where some of those uh blind spots are, no pun intended, and her insight and contributions are invaluable to our efforts to improve digital accessibility especially. So, Francis Lane, if you'd like to come on up, take a seat. [Applause] And then Jillian Nelson is a co-chair of the MAC PD and a policy director at the Autism Society of Minnesota. She's a tireless disability advocate and among other things she's helped draft the legislation that creates real change for the better within our state. Uh such as the required autism training for all police officers. That was the work of Jillian Nelson. So welcome Jillian. So as the accessibility coordinator, you know, whose goal is to improve access throughout St. Paul, I can't just sit there at my desk and think like, "Oh, here's what we should do." Uh, the the insight comes from engaging with the community, listening to people, asking questions. Tony, if you'd like to come on up, too. Oh, sorry. You already got your intro. So, Tony Newborn, ladies and gentlemen. Um, so we're going to do just that. you know, we're gonna kind of take this from a few different uh points of view, a few different intersections from the disability community and uh really focus on where do those barriers lie, right? It's not always a a curb or a step or a lack of a handrail or a heavy door. Sometimes it's um in the form of a web page or a PDF or um you know, a swim lesson, you know. So, so let's let's talk to to these folks here. My first question, um, we'll start with a question for Francis. Oh, and you guys have two, um, mics between the two of you. So, if, uh, Francis and my want to pass one back and forth >> and Jillian and Tony can can, um, share one as well. So, just pass those back and forth. Um, Francis, in what ways have you experienced being denied access to something because of your disability? >> Okay. Well, I do have to say, so I come from Stanford, Connecticut. That's where I, you know, grew up at and I just moved out here a little less than a year ago. I have to say I feel like Dorothy where it was like I don't think we're in Kansas anymore. I have to tell you it is totally different out here. I'm completely thrown. And when I first came out because I served on the mayor's advisory council in Stanford, nowhere near anything that is being proposed out here. We had some kind of high ideals, but you know, it wasn't going to work out. Come out here. I go to this first meeting at the MAC PD last October. I was like, sign me up. I want to be a member of this council because um I I've been get involved with a lot of the uh city um happenings and so on in Stanford, wanted to be involved with boards and commissions. and I was looked at as if I was asking for a million dollars or something. You know, they couldn't understand why if you're disabled, why would you want to be serving on a board of commission? They didn't know what to do with me. I had to explain to them, I'm really because I'm blind, I just really need to have things in print that are accessible so that I can actually, you know, read and be ready to serve and uh contribute to the meetings. And actually that was kind of a heavy pull just to even get that. So here I think is going to be different and I'm looking forward to uh just hopefully turning this around and working with a group of people who actually are aware that there are disabled people out here that just won't be included into the um fabric of life here. >> Thanks Francis. Uh Jillian, did you want to answer that question? How have you or in what ways have you experienced being denied access to something because of your disability? >> Um, so yeah, I absolutely want to answer that. Um, my primary disability that I've lived with the longest. I'm I'm multiply disabled. I've I've recently um been diagnosed with a lot of chronic illness issues and a lot of that have impacted mobility on an intermittent basis, but primarily I've lived my whole life autistic and with ADHD. And it's been really challenging. Like I I grew up with a hippie mother. Um knowing my my dad was a PCA, my mom worked in disability services. I knew about all the rights and all the protections, but I grew up around a lot of people with physical disabilities where people would fall all over themselves to make sure they had the accommodations. Oh, do we need to open the door? Do we need to get a ramp? What do we need to do? But then when I was diagnosed autistic in when I'm in my 20s um because late diagnosis when we were born in ' 82 isn't unusual. Um and I started being able to request accommodations. It didn't really go like that. Um the ADA is a fantastic bill. It has opened up so many doors literally and figuratively for a lot of people. But at the end of the day, the ADA is actually an incredibly abbleist piece of legislation. It only outlined what accommodations and um accessibility look like for people with disabilities that at the time our government deemed um worthy of contributing to society. Um so people with physical access needs or people with visual access needs or hearing access needs like all those things are concretely outlined in the ADA. But for people with more invisible disabilities or disabilities that fall under that realm of intellectual disability or developmental disability or impact anything to do with your brain because you know capitalism in your brain that's all that really matters. There's absolutely no guidance. Our our accessibility is covered under that really tiny line that says um other reasonable accommodations as requested. Um, but when you go to a place that has ADA accom they that has that they believe they're in compliance with the ADA and you request accommodations and you cite the ADA, they're you're told, "Well, no, we don't have to do that. We're already in compliance. Look at our wonderful ramp." Well, your wonderful ramp is great. I'm really happy it's there, but as an autistic person with sensory needs, that doesn't actually help me. Um, as an autistic person calling like a call center and dealing with something very stressful and having some challenges in maintaining emotional regulation, the fact that you hang up on me because I'm disregulated because of my disability doesn't your ramp doesn't help me. Your bathroom doesn't help me, your handicap parking doesn't help me as an autistic adult. And when you you ask for accommodations, you end up having to prove and fight and beg. And by the time you actually maybe get the accommodation you need, there's so much trauma that it's almost impossible to even engage with it. Like I I like to use the example of um my gym in St. Paul. I went back there after COVID with my PCA because I I need a PCA to keep me on track and those types of things and support me in um a bunch of different areas. And I I ran into a good friend of mine who's a wheelchair user and she was there with her PCA. And ironically, she was just there with her PCA because her PCA wanted to swim to like she actually transfers in and out of the pool independently. She gets herself dressed independently. She didn't actually need a ton of support, but she went through her whole workout. No one said a word to her. I walk in with my PCA as an appearing and non-disabled person. I was five minutes into my workout and they pulled me out of the pool and told me I couldn't have my PCA with me. I am like well according to the governor like like this is like what they say yeah like I can have my PCA with me like these are the guidelines from the state and they're like well we know what they are like like but you know they that's for people with disabilities I'm like I am a person with a disability that is how I qualified to have this PCA here is a paycheck stub and like it was it became such a thing it went on for six weeks before they finally like oh yeah I guess you're right you can have your PC of course I'm right I was on the commission that helped write the guidance to the gyms from the governor's office. And like that's that's the common experience when you have an invisible disability. Like there's there's a saying in the autism community that none of us we don't actually know what autism looks like in an adult by itself because every autistic adult also has trauma from trying to navigate this world that is clearly not made for us with people that clearly do not understand us. And yeah, it's it's a exhausting way to exist. So eventually you just stop trying to access things unless it's absolutely detrimental because every piece of access is is this worth the trauma it's going to cause? Thanks Jillian. Uh this next question is for Tony as someone from the uh public sector side of things. What signals to you that a city or a business or an organization is doing their due diligence to try to engage in equitable and accessible practices for the public? Oh, okay. Um, I think that so having, you know, I'm going to give you the the typical sort of government response of like having a committee. Um, the the committee that that is housed out of of hero is one. It's not the the end all beall, but it at least there's a baseline attempt of having com a committee with community members living with disabilities or are connected to organizations um for folks with disabilities. I think that's a first step. Um, I think that having a, you know, and you know, obviously this is something that I was very passionate about, having the equity change team, uh, and forming that and being intentional around that, having a, uh, employee resource network or an employee resource group. These are things that are like just basic, right? Nothing like, oh my gosh, the city has, you know, these groups. You should have the groups, right? And being intentional around who's on those groups. Um the the next sort of level from that is how are you utilizing those groups? Are they affectuating change and policy? So we have the employee resource networks. We have the um the the disability and the age uh uh uh community the boards and commissions but how are they actually changing policy in the city? Because if that's not happening then this is like it's just performative. So, I think you have the committees, you've created the structure for those committees to be successful and a budget. Let's talk about the money piece. No free 99 um situations. This takes money to be able to do um and to actually make the changes, not just like to sit and talk about what needs to be changed. It takes money to be able to do that. But then there needs to be connection. I'll speak from talent and equity resources/h human resources then what my expectation is and when I you know was a part of forming the employee resource network kind of process was for those groups to tell me what I need to do because I don't know I don't pretend to know all of the things that need to be changed but I need for somebody to tell me and raise their hand and say hey how you do your powerpoints it's not and I know I keep talking about powerpoints but That's like simple stuff that we use all the time, but we forget that there are various ways to present information and the PowerPoint is not the only way, but if you're going to use it, think about ways to use it so that everyone can can read it and can hear it, can listen to it, etc. >> I'll add PDFs to that situation, too. >> PDFs. um you know when we moved into hybrid or virtual and every you know not everybody but when we started doing more virtual meetings during the pandemic we were doing a lot of lot of uh screen time. Well you know at some point our communications team was like hey we need to have captions and we started doing a lot of community events virtually. We weren't thinking about what that how to connect with everybody. we were we were only connecting with people who can hear, see all of the things that are quote unquote normal for us, right? And so I think that the groups are good baseline and then how do how are those groups and how is the the enterprise of St. Paul, HR, all of our different departments, the mayor's office, how are we connecting with those groups to change policy and ensure that you know we are there's a followup too because sometimes we do stuff it's like hooray we did it like one thing right whatever we did it there's a whole bunch of other things so it's got to be continuous it has to be continuous conversations um and So, I think that those are and I'm sure there's a bunch of other ones that I'm missing, but for me that's just like basic and we need to have folks saying to the administration the powers that be who are involved and not just from a uh performative standpoint or hooray, we have a a commission. How are they doing? How are they making changes to the city to the enterprise and not just on their backs, right? Because I'm the one that's in the position. I have the positional power to make the change. So, I need to be listening. I need to be proactive in the work that I'm doing and I need to be making the changes and approving the changes so that um we are creating a more inclusive environment. >> Thanks, Tony. >> I just want to add to that too. I think it's really important in how things present. Um in this month of July, there were three separate proclamations issued. one by Ramsey County, one by the city council, and one by the mayor's office. Um I was absolutely floored when the I saw the picture of the county is giving out their um proclamation to a bunch of disability service workers, which are literally the people who make disabled people's lives a lot harder. Um so, thank you for recognizing disability pride month with the people that make us hard. But then like St. Paul, St. Paul got it absolutely right. like these they went above and beyond just the mayor's proclamation and brought in like the people with disabilities that are working to make the community a better place and said, "Hey, we thank you." So, like being really visible in like when you're talking about disabilities, if if I'm watching a meeting on TV and I see people with disabilities showing up and being a part of the conversation, I'm going to trust that city a lot more than if I see them talking to the people that hold power over people with disabilities. because the people that hold power over us think they know what's best for us and how our lives should be lived, but often we are in direct conflict with them and spend a lot of time trying to change that. So really recognizing that it's it's the people living that have the experience, not the people that serve us. >> Thanks, Jillian. >> And can I just add one other thing? >> Uh yeah, go ahead, Francis. Okay. So, when you guys are doing these um powerpoints and you're um listening over Zoom or whatever, it would just be really great if you actually read the whole screen of what you have on there because a lot of times be like, well, I'm going to skip this. You guys can look at it later and I'm wondering what was on that particular, you know, screen before you move to the next one. So, >> good point. Yeah. Um, this next question is for my so Francis, if you could pass that mic to your left. My um, as a representative from the Ark, what advice would you give a city that is looking to move well beyond the ADA compliance and plan spaces and services that feel genuinely accessible and equitable? Okay, that's like a that's like a pie in the sky kind of question there. >> Think it like best case scenario. What can we do? Well, um you know, I I've I've been lucky to be able to travel all over the country and so I've seen infrastructure in um communities where um you know there's not as much investment in in how cities are um made accessible. Um, and you know, I always come home when I think, you know, as much as we still have to improve in Minnesota, we're doing a lot of things right. So, um, I think, um, you know, we're we're we're doing the things right, but that doesn't mean that we have to just stay at that level, right? Like we could always be better. Um and yeah, I I think um um you know, at ARC, we're always trying to do better. Um and um I I hear what you're saying, Tony, about um are is the work we're putting in place actually making a difference or are we just doing it to make ourselves look good, right? Is it performative? And and I think that philosophy can be applied to anything really. Um I I know at ARC we're in the middle of you know really being intentional and putting in um policies and practices that um make us authentic in how we're trying to achieve our mission. Right? And so, you know, and I think that um that applies to government entities as well. Um there's so many there are so many things that, you know, are make government entities different from the private sector. Um but I do feel that um you know, being performative is easy. Um, and I I think a lot of people in the community um kind of see through that because when you don't follow through with what you're saying you're going to do, then people take notice, right? Um, and so, you know, at ARC, we I'm, you know, working hard with our leadership to put in place, you know, policies that are authentic and that holds ourselves accountable. Um, and so I guess that might be a good step for anybody, you know, for for St. Paul included. Um, hold yourselves accountable, you know, hold yourselves accountable to the people who live in this city. Um, you know, I love St. Paul. Um, I think we're a community that's hardworking and very salt of the earth sort of people. Um, I live I've lived in St. Paul pretty much all my adult life. Um, and you know, the people of Minneapolis are weird. Let's just say that out loud, right? But in a good way. I'm not saying that in a bad way. But like I I love people. I love the St. Paul people. Um, they're my kind of people. And um, we want our city, the leaders that help run our city to involve us. And you know, um I just remember when um you know, George Floyd was killed and you know, I remember Philando. Um you know, we all came together for that, right? Um especially Philando. Um and um I feel like disability should not be any different. like we should all come together to um make sure that we are accountable to ourselves when we're saying that we're going to do something. Um and to make sure that we do it um and to be authentic in it and to make sure that we have measurable outcomes to back that up also. Um so yeah, I think that's sort of a non-answer to my answer. >> Um I'm just going to add to that from a practical standpoint. Um I I've gotten the privilege to work with a lot of different planning committees on a lot of different things coming into like disability focus groups. Everything from parks to um transportation planning not just with St. Paul but throughout the state. And I have a great question for all of you. When we're trying to plan an inclusive park, when we're trying to plan inclusive roads and sidewalks, why are we doing one focus group with the disabled community after doing 10 with just members of the community who are just average non-disabled? If you want an inclusive community, if you want to know how to make that playground inclusive, how to make the sidewalks inclusive, how to make the plan inclusive, just stop talking to non-disabled people. If you go and just do all your focus groups within the disability community, it's going to be functional for the entire community. Nobody ever came into an accessible space and said, "Wow, I'm not disabled and this doesn't suit my needs at all. This is horrible. It's far too accessible. My day's been ruined." Like, everybody benefits from accessibility. [Applause] >> So, let's let's start with the disability community. I mean typically like we bring in all these groups to get outside perspectives but you guys are mo for the most part most teams are made up of average people without disabilities that have kids that have lives. You already have that perspective within your team. Focus on getting the perspectives of those who are most marginalized because like disability justice says if you plan and work towards the goals of those who are most marginalized everybody will be okay. So, let's stop wasting the time talking to like the soccer moms and figuring out what she needs in a playground. I'll tell you, talk to the disability community. We're going to tell you what you need. And answer number one is a fence. You cannot call any playground accessible until you fence it in because autistic children are not safe there until you fence it in. And dear God, do not put it next to a body of water, call it accessible, and not put a fence on it. That's all you're doing is setting up our kids to die. So like and this is this is what we see across the state and it's all because you talk to maybe eight people in the disability community, 100 people without disabilities. Switch that around and you're going to end up with a really really great city. >> Thanks. Yeah, it's a good point, Jillian. Uh Francis, >> and we're all really opinionated. >> That's why you're here. So, what I wanted to add was was I was in Connecticut, I did have some groups of uh people that did help me and, you know, supported me and I did serve on a couple of uh boards and commissions on the chart revision commission and then also on the affordable housing trust fund board. So, I did have that support, but like I said, it was really they found it really surprising that someone who was blind and they weren't sure what to do with me, why would I want to serve voluntarily because there they don't pay per dams or stipens. You are told if you want to serve then you are, you know, you're doing it with no enumeration. So, now I've come here and I'm feeling very positive. I'm hoping to get involved with some of the things things I built expertise in and charter in the charter uh commission or you know planning land use so on like that and I'm hoping I'm not going to run into the same barriers I back in Connecticut that yes as long as I have things that are in accessible format that I can you know read with my readers and so on I can contribute just any other sighted person and that even as I'm older So, I'm retired. So, yes, it's great, you know, that you have the support to work and to do those things if that's what you need to do is have to perform and be out in the community. I'm at an older age. I'm retired, but I still want to serve the city and I'm, you know, also would want to be able to not have barriers and serving on a board commission. So, I'm crossing my fingers. Uh Francis, while you have the mic, um can you give us an example of a type of accommodation that you have asked for to access a service or program in the past and if you've ever had a hard time getting uh granted that accommodation? >> Well, in Connecticut, again, it was really as simple as that. I was able to get on the um on the trust fund board and uh that person I mean and I felt it was intentional but they just all I really needed for at that time with this information because with a lot of documents that had to be read you're listening through a lot of what the developers you know financing so on like that as to whether we're going to award a grant or not and just to get all this paperwork just to have it mailed to me you know in a timely fashion passion so that I could actually go through all the numbers, understand what was going on. And uh it was uh it was a struggle. We went from where I couldn't even get any documents at all for the first almost five months. I'm screaming and yelling about it and then it did get better, but but it was a struggle. And here I've been trying to attend some of the uh the uh the council meetings and uh I'm having a problem with the accessibility, you know, online in order to get there. I'm still trying to get that worked out. So hopefully that would get solved pretty soon. >> Um my how about yourself? Can you give an example of any accommodations that you have asked for to access a service or program? and if you've ever had a hard time getting granted an accommodation. >> Sure. Um yeah, so I I think for me um it's really been more an issue of um whether I feel empowered enough to ask for an accommodation. And I think a lot of people with disabilities go through this. Um you know, I mean like so for myself, I'm I'm I'm kind of a workhorse, right? I' I've worked forever and I'm a a high producer and I also want to just put out in voice that I know that I'm a very privileged disabled person. Um, and so, you know, I I I have always made too much money to qualify for anything. Um, so I don't even bother trying to navigate any of those systems because I just know that I don't qualify. Um but I also you know I think people with disabilities who are um you know employed um feel as though they need to compensate and work even harder. Um because you know it's it's that internalized abbleism thing, you know, where you just feel like you need to prove yourself and if you can prove it to yourself then you can prove it to other people, right? That you're just as hard of a worker. And so, you know, now nowadays I I don't feel that way, you know, but um maybe 20 years ago I probably felt that way about, you know, the fact that I have to make my disability small in order to be able to fit in more, if that makes sense. Um and yeah, and so that that a symptom of that mindset of that internalized abbleism is that you just stay quiet. You're not going to, you know, cause any trouble at work. you don't want to, you know, um, rock the boat or anything and you don't want your supervisor to make it seem like you're asking for something because usually when you ask for something, the answer is no, right? Um, so you just deal you just deal with it. And um, so that I think that's been, you know, in in my lived experience, my struggle is like even getting to the point where you can ask for an accommodation. Um, because you just, you know, experience tells you that usually doesn't go well. Um, and it and it's really ironic because we we we've been talking a lot about COVID and what did CO teach us about accommodations that >> they're so easy and then when able-bodied people needed an accommodation, then it was okay, right? because disabled people have been asking for the same accommodations that everybody used during CO all of our lives, but we've always been, you know, um given, you know, we've always faced issues with that. So, we know it's possible, right? And we know that um it can be universal and that everybody can benefit. Just like Jillian said, when you make when you are including people with disabilities in your planning and how you run uh your work environment, everybody benefits, right? Um I I've never known in my work in disability um amongst groups of disabled people that I've worked with, I've never known anybody to ever say, "Let's keep out those able-bodied people." Right? We're like, we're like, if you make things accessible, if you do things with a universal design mindset, then everybody benefits. Um, no matter what age you are, what ability you have. Um, and I think that's the lesson that came out of COVID. Um, and I wish, you know, we had learned that lesson a long time ago. It would have spared me a lot of headache throughout the years. But, um, yeah. So, I I think for for myself, um I've always, you know, never I I mean, I've never really had issues getting accommodations. It was always like, am I ready to deal with even asking for an accommodation from an employer? >> Yeah, that's a good point about um you know, feeling empowered to be able to comfortably ask for an accommodation. You know, the city's always had an accommodation request form on the website. Um, until recently, it's been kind of buried in the hero portion of the site. You really have to seek it out or know what you're trying to look for if that's what you were trying to access. Um, recently, as part of our greater accessibility push, departments have been kind of putting it more front and center. Now, it's at the bottom of no matter where you are in the website. Um there's an uh an accessibility uh link to that page that gives you the the links to the accommodation request forms tops of uh applications or QR codes on flyers. If you need an accommodation, scan here or click here and all of a sudden we're getting more accommodation requests than we've ever gotten. >> Yeah. I'm just so I want to kind of speak to what my saying about that empowerment like as someone with a disability like autism like the accommodation that I need most often is not one that you can put on a form and hope that someone gets like I I need an understanding world that's going to not judge me when I don't make eye contact or when I go on too long about my special interest or when I'm just very very awkward. You can't you can't put be kind and patient on every single form requesting accommodations. And like to kind of speak to what Mai said, like I spent a long time making my disability small too and working real really hard to try to be the poster child of what an autistic adult could be in hopes that I could change the world for every single other autistic person and we will be welcome in all these spaces if I could just sit in my chair just right and I'll I'll make just the right amount of eye contact. and I won't talk about the WNBA when I'm not supposed to. And then maybe I could open doors up for other autistic people. And what I actually found was by doing that, I actually closed doors that that autistic people were closing those doors for themselves because they didn't know how to perform and mask at that level and they didn't want to. And I realized like once I put it all down and I just showed up as my messy, chaotic self who will info dump on you for 45 minutes about the WNBA or show up 20 minutes late or take off my shoes in the middle of a presentation because they're bothering me. And I started showing up authentically autistic, that's when accessibility started coming more naturally into the world because I wasn't trying to fit myself into something. And it that's when more spaces started being created in the world is when when we show up authentically as ourselves disabled and stop trying to make ourselves small for the convenience of others. When realistically what we really just need to create an accessible world is kindness, patience, and curiosity. Like Tony said, accessibility isn't that hard. All you have to do is say, "Hey, what do you need? Can I help?" And we'll tell you what we need and if you can help. that simple. We we've solved the whole problem of accessibility right now. Write that down. >> I I appreciate all of those comments and I just wanted to say as uh an able-bodied person who's in who's a manager, right? And um I want to be careful about using the word ally. Sometimes I'm weirded out by that that terminology, but if you like it, go with it. but more so from a an advocate standpoint of like being a nice kind human being who centers humanity of people in a management what what I challenge our managers to do and our our staff to do is like when an accommodation issue comes up and someone raises their hand and is empowered to do so don't act crazy right and don't start thinking about like oh we can't do this and then you start like retelling retiating. That's a legal term, right? Um and an illegal term actually. Uh so you cannot retaliate against people. So sometimes we get into these spaces where we're like, "She said she had a disability. She needs an accommodation. Now we're not going to get work done." And now whatever. Stop. >> If you if you accommodate us, we're going to get the work done. >> You get the work done. How about that? That's the way to get the work done. But if you're only thinking about the work, that's a problem, too. So, you have people in jobs doing the work. So, an accommodation is a good thing, not a bad thing. If you think it's a bad thing, you're on your way to a lawsuit or an EOC complaint or a complaint from the Department of Human Rights. So, we have to be we need to educate ourselves and make sure that, you know, training doesn't solve for everything. You got to do the work on your own. You have to do the work on your own. So, how you show up in these spaces, you have to do that work when you go home or whatever, weekends, whatever. And then as a city, we'll provide as much as we can. And there's always opportunities for growth there. You got to do the work on your own and come into these spaces. So, I don't have to have a goofy conversation with you about how you can't retaliate against the person who raised their hand for an accommodation. You cannot do that. That shouldn't be your thought process of it. And it if it is or it has been, obviously, I'll say you need to stop. But we need to get to a place of education and training around what is it that you're trying to do? How do you best support that person from a kindness humanity centering our humanity standpoint? Because the folks can still do the work. They're just saying that they need some they need us a tool or resource or whatever it is that they've said to be able to do the work well. And so for those who are out there who are in these positions of power and influence, and even if you're not, just wanting to make sure that you're supporting your coworker, um, we need to be in a place to where you're coming to the table, you're educating yourselves, you're you're you're putting in the work, but being mindful about that is another way of creating an inclusive work environment and not freaking out and not engaging into retaliation uh when it comes. up when when folks are your staff are feeling empowered to say hey this is something that I need stay in the space of curiosity lean into the space of like I actually want to give you the accommodation now yes we got to go through the goofy process interactive process all that kind of stuff but you want to accommodate them instead of looking for ways to not accommodate the person look for ways that to where you can accommodate them so that we can continue doing the work it's a different mindset it's a different approach and it and it can be done. Uh, and it's it most of it is simple. There's some things that are can be complicated, but like you lean into figuring out and getting to a solution that's mutually agreeable and acceptable with the employee. It can be done. And in our team and working with um, Hero as well, there's a process for that. We got to lean in and you have to lean in from a standpoint of like I want to do this and I will do this. not figuring out ways to put up blockers. >> Um, and Tony on that, uh, you know, what you're kind of describing as a culture shift from, you know, accessibility on request to, uh, universal design for inclusion, um, from the very start, you know, from the this decision-making process to the way that we build out our spaces and plan our services. Um what advice would you give you know we're all city employees here or some of us are boards and commissions um what advice would you give you know because we all play a part in this to shift it from a culture of accessibility upon request maybe to an accessible universal design. >> Sure. Um it's it's similar to what I said before. Um you got to do the work on your own. You know, I know in this equity space, it used to be like we're not in the business of changing hearts and minds, but hearts and minds need to be changed to be able to do the work. I'm in the business of you need to change your hearts and mind. Um, you have to do the work at home on the weekends or whatever else. You need to diversify your environment and who you are around, who you socialize with, who you are friends with, who you are in community with, whatever that looks like. Because when you come into the space, then it's easier for us to create this environment. It's easier for us to create the policies. But if you're like, "Oh, that's just something St. Paul does. You know, I just do that at work." That's that's problematic. It's we're not going to get there. So, you got to do the work at home. You got to do the work with your family. You got to diversify who you're around and the experiences. I didn't say this earlier. My uncle who uh passed away during the pandemic was blind. Um he was it was an accidental shooting in his eye. He was blind at age 16. He navigated life uh as a blind person. But my uncle could tell you which streets to turn on. He'd get in the car and like make a right, left, right, left, all of that. And I I knew he was blind obviously. So I wasn't blind to it, right? not to use the the word twice, but but I also recognized and I was around and not just around him once a year, he was a part of our family. So I was able to see like how does Uncle Chris live life and what what role can I play to ensure that when he needs help, I can be there to provide it to him. When he doesn't need help, I can just be there to to support him and whatever else. That's a family member. But I'd say that that's an experience that I had that now shapes how I live life and how and the environments that I create. And so I encourage you all to to to to do that. Similar to what I said before, which is be intentional around the environment. Like you've gone to this presentation, this panel, you've heard us talk and advocate. Do something about it. Go back to your respective teams and say, "Hey, went to this amazing training. I went to this amazing discussion with these amazing panel members here and I need to do something. What's my role in this? Because each one of us has a role. If you're like, "Oh, that's Beth's role because she's the manager. She'll take care of that." It's all of our roles and responsibility to change the environment. And so, you've often heard the mayor talk about, you know, we want to create a city that works for all of us, so all of us have to get to work. If you want the culture to change, you need to get to work. Because Tony, director of talent and equity resources, yep, great. All this experience and I'm giving a good talk right now. But I don't know all the things. I don't. And if you don't tell me the things that I need to know or that your experiences, if I'm not doing the work either to make sure that I'm coming into the space to make the changes, then the changes won't happen. And I'm I can't be solely responsible for those changes. And so I need you, we need you collectively to be in your respective workspaces to raise the hand when the hand needs to be raised to challenge me to raise my own hand to do the work. Um I think all of us collectively are responsible and have some ownership in creating this this culture and then I need to go in my respective shop to make sure that I'm not relying on people to raise their hand and the processes are so rigid that I have to wait on people to tell me that I need to create an inclusive work environment. So I think that it's multi-layered. Do the work at home. Make sure that your uh your your circles and your community is truly diverse in in in the greatest extent to the greatest extent of what the definition of diversity is. And then we go back to our spaces and create the environment that we want. And then from a policy procedural standpoint ensuring that those processes policies and procedures are changed and reflect the the a an inclusive environment and the broader community not a specific community. >> I think too another piece to add on that in creating this culture um historically the disability community we've we've been looked at especially in the employment sector as a risk and a liability. um we're we're categorized by our diagnosis and our accommodations. Stop looking at us like that. We are our own culture. Like we don't categorize and list out deficits of any other diverse culture in the workforce. Like we we look and say, "Okay, these are different cultural needs. Okay, we need to have a prayer room for for our Muslim employees. We might need to adjust some holiday schedules for our Jewish employees." We accept and embrace those cultures and we don't even blink twice about accommodating something that is a part of a person's culture. But when we talk about disability, all people see of a medical diagnosis, stop. We're a culture. We have our own language. We have our own traditions. We have our own values. We have our own beliefs. And if you start looking at us instead of these people who have been horrifically struck down with this disability that makes their life so much harder, which yeah, sometimes it's harder, but also there's really great things about living with my disability. Things I wouldn't change for anything because I am part of such a beautiful vibrant culture that's that's about survival, that's about inclusion, that's about acceptance, that it has a vibrant history of how we got to where we are. And if you look at us and you see that culture of survivor, you see that culture of innovation because dear god, aut like disabled people are going to be the most innovative people you've ever met because we've had to be like that's the only way we're going to survive in this world. Like so look at us from the culture we come from like and and not just as a diagnosis and a liability and a risk. And that is a great step towards creating the culture you're looking for is to see us as people and a community, not just a list of accommodations. >> And may I add here, um, I'm new out here, but I would have to say taking on what Jillian was just saying, this also needs to be rolled out into the housing and the landlords because what I'm noticing here is they look at us as liabilities also. And if you ask for an accommodation, they're afraid to grant it because they think the other neighbors are going to look at and think that you're getting a special um special treatment, so on like that. And uh when I first was going to move out here, I'm coming from Connecticut, so I'm trying to do things, you know, through um through mail and email. And uh when I started asking about accommodation for a washer and dryer or something along those lines, I could tell they were going to hold up my application to get on weight list if um if I kept pushing that. So I ended up dropping the whole thing and not even mentioning it. So I've you know been out here now and I can tell they still are not interested at all in hearing about any accommodations. So I've worked around that and uh I have like a portable washer machine now. Um I've done some other things in order to mitigate not having a air conditioner etc. And uh yeah we are probably some of the most innovative people because you have to do all these workarounds because sometimes people just don't want to hear you know what you might need. So, like to see some some somebody talking to these landlords out here, letting them know that um they need to be, you know, a little bit more accommodating and understanding. Thanks, guys. Um I want to open it up out to you folks. You've all been sitting there so attentively. Does anyone have any questions for any of the panelists or all of the panelists sitting up here? All right. Um, well, why don't I do one more? I I'd like to hear from everybody on this >> question. Oh, sorry. I didn't see you back there. >> Uh, can we hear? I'll I'll repeat it. Why don't you >> two two different so there's the MAC PD uh which is for disability and then AOA is for aging That's a great question. >> Um, as the co-chair for MAC PD, um, I invite any of you any time to contact Mark. We would love to talk with you. Um, bring us your things. We want to review every single one of your ADA plans for full accessibility beyond physical accessibility. I'm looking at sensory accessibility and intellectual accessibility, visual accessibility. I want all the accessibility. Um my goal is to make sure St. Paul becomes the most accessible city in the country. Um so yeah, so call Mark. Mark will get you on our agenda and me and Francis and Diana and Carrie over here. We'll we'll run you through the ringer on some accessibility. definitely definitely want you guys to come and talk to us because that's what actually as soon as the first meeting I went to last October as soon as I heard that that's what the plan was for this MAC PD I was like sign me up that's what actually got me to become a member is the fact that we're going to be talking about all these AD accessibilities and you know through all the city departments so I'm looking forward to talking to anybody who wants to come and talk to us >> and just be prepared you're talking with us we're not we're not interested in you presenting at us and us being like, "Oh, yeah, that's so great." We're going to tell you what could be better. Like, we're going to do it very kindly and Mark usually brings snacks, so it's great, but but we're we're there to help you do better. >> Yeah. And we've a lot of departments have come over the course of the past year. June, we hosted the fire department, emergency services. We've talked with public works, parks, libraries, peed, water. Um, you know, everyone comes through at some point. So, if you do have anything specific that you'd like to bring by, just Yeah, I'm the liazison for the MAC PD at your table right there, Stephanie Bremer for Akoa. Um, we love having guests, so keep in touch. Any other questions? Yes, sir. for like to pay for a requested accommodation for like an employee. >> Yeah. Um well technically it's something that you would have to provide you know through your department or whatnot. Um the the price is should not be something that you're considering as you're making that decision. You should just be deciding if if it's a potential hire. This is the person we want and then we'll figure it out later. Um so that is a good question though. You know like money is limited. We have budgetary concerns and things like that. I see Beth wants to I think the question is about how interpreter >> Oh, >> for for language access. Yes. Um, so yeah, we do have a process for ordering an interpreter. um you live interpreter, video interpreter, over the phone interpreter, uh getting a document translated into whatever uh language and also ASL if you're communicating with members of the public or within your department um who are uh deaf or heart of hearing. Um every department does have a budget for that. Um it and like I said it should not be something that uh denies access to anyone who needs to access you. A lang language difference is not a disability but it is an access issue. Um so like I said I I say order first ask questions later. That's one of the >> Could I could I speak to that? >> I mean it's it's better than denying access and and saving a couple bucks, you know. So >> can I speak to that, Mark? >> Yes, please. >> Yeah. just just want to clarify some of the things you said. It's on the department in your budget to plan for that. There's no fund, you know, no magic fund that you can tap into, uh, at least not at this point. Um, but it's in your department, it's in your or it should be. And if if it's something that oftentimes it's something that's new or hasn't been considered, that's usually what happens. Like, oh, we need to do, you know, whatever. Or we're hiring somebody, we need to to budget for that. It's something that you haven't budgeted for. That's usually what happens. Um, so it is up to it's the department's responsibility and as Mark said, it shouldn't be a reason why you don't hire the person. That's illegal. Illegal. Let's focus on that. It's illegal. Um, >> because of the Americans with Disabilities Act, >> it's illegal. And the Human Rights Act and the State Department Human Rights Act, all of those, that's illegal. Uh, so you can't do that. All right. And then just from a uh public accommodation standpoint, because this isn't a public accommodations, when you open up space to the public using any of our facilities, then you need to if folks ask for accommodation, you need to consider that uh and all of those laws when it comes to language and access and and whatever else. So, it is up to the departments. There's no fund uh that you can tap into. Um, but I would encourage you if that comes up to not only work with your department, but work with with HERO. Um, because if there is some sort of grant funding, there could be grant funding for some of this stuff that that could be a way for you to to pay for it. But if there's no grants, then it's coming out of your respective departments. >> Can I can I just say something real quick? Also, just to piggyback on everything you just said, Tony. So, um, you know, I I I would suggest that this might be something that you could take up with the mayor and city council to create a budget. Um because um I know that when I worked for the state of Minnesota um in recent years, the legislature did appropriate a budget for state departments to be able to um you know give reasonable accommodations, right? Whether that was disability related or language related. and and I didn't know this until like I like right when I left the state because um I was working at deed at the time providing accommodations um doing title title one and title two work. So um I was really surprised um but that you know I I don't I don't know if that money continued to be appropriated. U I don't know if Julian if you know about that but that's I mean I think as an employer um and especially um you know doing public service I think that just makes sense right so maybe take that up with Mayor Carter and the city council but also um for folks who are doing HR work um the state of Minnesota also has what what's called their connect 700 program where people with disabilities can go through a non-competitive um application and interview process and um be hired if they meet minimum qualifications for any given state job. And so, you know, I I I think that and and you know, I coordinated that for deed for uh a little bit when I was there and I thought it was a I mean, it didn't didn't it wasn't without flaw, don't get me wrong, but you know, it's a good faith effort to be able to um include people with disabilities more within that HR process when hiring. I was just going to say while I'm sitting next to Tony, um, uh, Como, I would like to formally request an accommodation that I need to snuggle with a sea lion, please. >> Since she says you you have to grant public requested accommodation, >> reasonable accommodation, >> there is >> in the back there. Sure. >> Yeah. >> Particularly the sea lion policy. the seaine policy. We're going to put the seaine policy over there uh for now. But yeah, that's a great question. One, we have a uh disability employee resource network. Is it disability pride? Am I getting the the name of the It's >> accessability. >> Accessibility. Um maybe I was getting disability pride month uh confused. We have an employee resource network that was formed about a year, two years ago. CO's messing me up. So if it's longer than that, I'm sorry. But we have that group bring the issue to the group and then they will bring the issue to uh talent and equity resources and we we put together a process for creating a new policy or you can just send me an email. Send me an email saying Tony here's a a policy idea or policy request or whatever else. And I I will still bring it to the group saying hey I received this. Let's talk about it. Let's bring this person as a part of the group. And then we work create a work group to to change the policy. It it it is that now y'all know stuff happens that takes a long time to happen in the city. Some things um but other things it could be just as easy if like okay we're going to put a a draft the policy we're going to put on the site. Um the the work group would consist of someone from my team maybe even myself. we'd probably include someone from the the equity uh uh team division in talent and equity resources and then we would have to include the attorneys. Um and so uh and that's our process for any policy change, right? To make sure we're in alignment with the ADA, maybe we're not we're on the line. Are we going to get sued? You know, all of that. And that's not a reason to to not move forward with a policy. We just got to make sure that we are in alignment with all of the things. And so that would be our our process. And then once it's finalized, um there's no like it doesn't need to go before city council or anything like that. Um usually and it's simply a a change in our policy that we would do some form of communication about so that people the the across the city would know. >> Thanks. One more question then I'll uh let us out of here. Go ahead. Do you have any or what do you have that has either educated you ord >> um my first piece of advice is follow disabled people on social media. Um there's a ton of fantastic bloggers I can recommend. Um, I'm autism on the go and I'm also really bad at keeping up my blog. Um, we also have some great people like Neurom and um, Neuro something rebel. Um, Fidgets and Fries is a favorite of mine. Diary of a mom as a parent who really talks a lot about things. Um, one book I'm reading right now that's just absolutely blowing my mind is Care Work. Is that the name of the book? Mai Care Work. Um, I've been listening to it on Audible and I have so many regrets that I didn't read it sooner. It's just about how do we form a world that isn't so dependent on services and embrace disability culture. Um, just reading anything that's written by disabled people because the the more you hear our voices, the more real we become. Um, for as far as autism goes, I really recommend anything by Devon Price. I really don't recommend anything by Temple Grandon. she had her time. Um she was great at opening the doors, but um there's a lot of newer voices out there. Um and there's just there's a lot of great stuff out there by a lot of disabled people. Um I could probably list like 3,000 more books, but those are those are my starting points. Um my what's the disability justice book by that since invalid puts out? >> Oh, it's um something like skin bone. I recommend visiting the Sins invalid website and just buying all their books. >> I have copies at home that I can give out. >> I don't read though. >> And you know, like Tony said, just hang out with the disabled people. Any of you are more than welcome to take me to lunch or to hang out with a sea lion. >> I love that. Take out to lunch. Uh the thing I have a 10-month-old and a toddler, so my reading is uh limited to maybe some Elmo stuff and uh some kids books. Uh but I what we're intentional around is the books that we do read to them and ensuring that you know there's a there was a there's an episode on Sesame Street. There's a a book on Sesame Street about I forget the name of the character who's uh a disabled person there. Well, one I think it's Julia that has that has autism and then there was one on someone in a wheelchair, right? And if you read I I know this is a little elementary, but if you actually read the kids books, it's like hm we should be doing this, right? And we're lost. We've lost that. Donate to NPR and NPR too given the situations that's going on in PBS. But uh we should be doing that, right? Because they're talking about that for kids. We teach our kids stuff, but then we don't do it. So that's what I'm reading right now is like a lot of kids books and when I read them, I'm like, "Oh, I need to bring this to my all staff meeting." Like here's the Elmo book that we're we're talking about or Sesame Street book where we're talking about creating an inclusive work environment. Um I I don't follow folks on social media, but I need to. I think that that's a that's a good idea. Um for me, it's more so like articles. I'm more of a experiential person. That's why I keep focusing on like go out and do it. Like read about it, but go out and do it because you're going to have that human interaction is important. So, I think it's a mixture of of of both. Grab you some Sesame Street uh books and some other authors that you uh kids authors that you appreciate. And I think you'll really learn that what they're talking about and how to create an environment uh is with kids is what we should be doing as adults. Um and that would be my my advice. It's it for me it's just something that it's we talked about lived experiences. It's just what I'm doing and being intentional around it. For those who need to read, there's tons of things uh that and you got to be intentional around there. But I'm an experiential person. and I need to experience have the experience but there's an intention behind that that's my own that's a decision that I've made to do to learn from other people so that I can bring it back to my environment >> Francis did you have any book or entertainment or podcast Rex >> uh no books I mean I guess I'm so much into just trying to read some of the uh commission stuff like on the charge stuff like that I'm kind of focused in on that I don't know any other disabled people except for on the councils I serve on. So I guess I'm just going to learn and as I go out and do other things, that's when I interact with other people and if they ask me about my blindness and so on, that's when I start sharing and uh hoping that I can get them to understand, you know, where I'm coming from. >> My >> Yes. So, um I don't really read um unless it's like, you know, a funny meme online or something. Um and um but I I mean I I do think that there are lots of really good books out there uh about um disability and disability justice. Um I wouldn't, you know, I agree with all the suggestions Jillian made. They're they're all great books. Um you can find a lot of stuff on Amazon. Um, but I do want to say that um, you know, and I think this has already been brought up, you know, disabled folks are some of the most innovative and creative and artistic people that I know. And so, you know, uh, buy the books that are written by disabled uh, writers. Go see art exhibits by disabled artists. Um, you know, go go catch a show with disabled performers. Um, we're we're we're we love to be able to show off our our talent and our work and invite anybody to to to come to see what we do. Um, and you know, I guess I'll I'll also um just add that um you know, I I really like um you know, whatever is sends a positive message about disability, whether it's online or print or on TV or whatever, but um just be mindful that, you know, abbleism manifests itself in so many ways in our lives, right? and it's hard to catch sometimes. Um, and intent versus impact is such a huge thing um, when it comes to abbleism, but it's also a very fine line, right? And so, just be careful that you're not sort of like falling into that inspiration porn mindset where you think that it's a, you know, the intentions are really good and that maybe it's, you know, um, helping people with disabilities as far as what you're seeing on social media or even out in life, right, in our communities, but may but in fact it probably is harming people with disabilities um in the way that we're depicted, in the way that we're being, you know, exploited um for monetary gain or whatever it might be. I just want to caution all of us on keep being mindful of that as well. >> I got told the other day I was I got told the other day I was so inspirational because I was driving my car. I'm like, cool. I'm glad you're inspired by that. Not about the fact that I've passed dozens of laws and I'm a national speaker, but yeah, I I can drive my car. Like, so yeah, like don't don't look at us as inspiring just for living. Like, look at the really cool things we do. And also, I mean, me driving my car isn't that inspiring. I'll be honest, I'm a horrible driver. >> All right. Um, we're coming up on the noon hour here or like right about there. So, I'm going to ask one last question. Everyone give me just a ones sentence answer. Um, what is one immediate change that all of us city employees could make today that would meaningfully reduce ableist barriers in public life? >> I'll let my start on that end. >> Oh jeez. >> Uh, can you repeat the question? What is one immediate change that every city employee could make today that would meaningfully reduce ableist barriers in public life? >> This might be too deep a question start. >> I you know I have I've had this the state fair on my mind a lot because we're trying to recruit people to volunteer. um you know and the state fair poses so many problems you know uh as far as access. So I guess my one sentence is you know if I if St. Paul has any pull, you know, help help make the state fair more accessible because um it's it's a the great Minnesota get together, but sometimes, you know, I I can't see above the counters at some of those vendors. So, um but yeah, fair comes to mind, but it applies to anything, right? If you're out and about, just look around you, see where the access issues are, and take note of that. Francis, >> I don't know. Um, >> I would just say think of those words, universal accessibility when you're doing any kind of policy. You're in a meeting, just continue to think about that and and just have that as part of your everyday thinking and policies instead of just something that's sometimes I would say uh attend our one of our border commission meetings. Uh I always forget the name uh the named >> the mayor's advisory committee for people with disabilities. >> Yes. Attend one of those. Also attend the employee resource network. Engage. You know my whole thing is about experience your experience and and uh and that leading to change. Mine is be curious. Um instead of or a lot of times our first instinct to change is no no we can't change that. Um but just start asking well why can't we change that? Why not? How would we do that? Um curiosity is the best way to create a more equitable society across the board for everyone. >> Yeah. >> I don't know why I'm giving him my mic. All right, I'd like to thank all four of our panelists and speakers here. Uh appreciate you all coming out today. Enjoy the rest of your day and uh just keep accessibility and uh equitability on the forefronts of your mind no matter what you're doing in your jobs or in your life. Appreciate y'all.