[music] [music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] >> Heat. Heat. Heat. Hey, heat. Hey, heat. Heat. Heat. N. [music] >> [music] [music] >> Call the special meeting of the St. Paul City Council to order. Roll call, please. >> Johnson, >> here. >> Jo, >> here. >> Kim Yang >> here. >> Buoie >> here. Coleman >> here. >> Council President Ner >> here. Six present, one absent, who is expected shortly. Council member Kim. Uh there's one item, public hearing 26-16, public comment on police surveillance technology and data privacy. Great. So, thank you everyone for joining us today for our public hearing. Um we appreciate you being here and we are looking forward to hearing your testimony. A couple of housekeeping items. Again, um we have a hard stop at 6 p.m. So, we have about an hour and a half for this public hearing. Um we are hoping to hear from as many people as we possibly can. Um, that means uh that we ask folks, especially if you are sure you want to speak, um, please get to the front of the line so we can make sure we hear from you. If you hear something said that you 100% agree with, you can say, "I 100% agree with something someone else said," and you don't have to repeat it verbatim. That will ensure that someone else who really wants to speak and maybe has something different to say, has their chance. Everyone will have two minutes. And just like in our last public hearing, we ask that you start with your name and where you're coming from. Um, and then you'll have two minutes. There is a timer right in front of you. It's my not fun job to keep everyone to two minutes so that the very last person testifying gets the same amount of time and the same amount of our attention as the first person testifying. Um so please help us help you help us by keeping yourself to the two minutes. There are lots of other ways to contact this council including emailing us, calling us, meeting us outside of these these times. So I just don't want you to feel like this is the only way to make yourselves heard. Um, but again, we appreciate you being here and we will probably limit our comments at the end maybe to very little. We're we're here to listen to you and we don't want to cut into your time by leaving ourselves time to talk. So, just anticipating that in advance. Um, so with that, um, and what I'd encourage folks to do again, if you if you know you want to talk, we'd really love you to to line up um, on both sides of the gold columns and we'll just have folks come alternating sides one at a time. Um, don't you don't have to wait too long. As soon as someone's done, you can come right up and start speaking. And then when you're done speaking, please sign in on the sign-in sheets. Um, all right. So, with that, anyone who'd like to testify, please uh come on up and line up and we'll start with our first speaker. Welcome. Uh, thank you. Good afternoon. My name is Matt Eling, 1465 Fairmont Avenue. I'm here today on my own behalf as a St. Paul resident to discuss background information about automated license plate readers and the state statute that regulates their use in Minnesota. So Minnesota statute 13824 has been on the books for over a decade and was a result of two years of negotiations between law enforcement and a a broad group of stakeholders from across the political spectrum and I was part of the final negotiations of the ALPR statute on behalf of motans for open government a nonpartisan group on whose board I serve. Now, the resulting compromise that came out of those discussions turned on several key points, including uh one, that the statute would prohibit the creation of a statewide repository of ALPR data. Two, the statute would only allow ALPR use related to active criminal investigations. Three law enforcement entities could only check ALPR images against the Bureau of Criminal Apprehensions hot list of license plate numbers unless there was an ongoing criminal investigation that warranted additional checks. And there's other important provisions in there, but those are three I'd like to touch on. Now, the statute was passed with the intention of comprehensively regulating ALPR use in our state. So any law enforcement entity that uses ALPR cameras in the state of Minnesota has to comply with these and other requirements in statute and taking actions outside of those requirements violates Minnesota law. Um, I see that my time is short, so I'll turn you to my written comments, which detail how certain things like participating with Flock as a provider of data to Flock and taking data out of the Flock system, which is a national and statewide database of other ALPR data violates one of the provisions of the ALPR statute. So, uh, you have in front of you political questions. Uh, you also have legal questions such as if a flock contract violates state law, then it would >> Thank you very much. >> not be able to be enforced. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. Make sure to sign in and thank you for reminding me of something critical, which is that if you sent in email testimony, we have that in front of us in the public record and we can review that. So, just know that it's you can always say, "I'm running out of time. Refer to my comments or I'll email you." Um, thank you so much. Please come on up. >> Welcome. >> Hello. Uh my name is Chris Daniel. Uh I'm from Ward One. Uh so thank you for calling this hearing. I really appreciate you uh taking the time out of your schedule listen. And thank you especially to Council Member Buouie for sponsoring it. Um as a technology professional since the early 2000s, I'd like to comment on the privacy implications of outsourcing any part of our community safety to private corporations. Um, throughout the past couple of decades, we've witnessed tech companies pushing the boundaries of established law in order to extract profit. Tech giants like Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Facebook, Apple, all of these and more have abused their effective monopoly positions to protect and increase their profits. You don't have to look far to find successful litigation against them. part of the uh DOJ lawsuit against uh Microsoft found that they had specific language in their internal documents. Embrace, extend, extinguish when it turn when it comes to uh coming into a new market with a new product or technology. Um one thing all these companies have in common is that they ran ahead of regulators and lawmakers who didn't take the time to understand the technology. They ran ahead to capture a monopoly share using our computers or private data or attention or other resources in any way they wish with few consequences. The settlements and fines they've paid are factored into their profit and loss calculations. They're not effective penalties. Uh computer engineers like me tend to make a classic mistake early in our careers. We uh let shiny new tools drive us instead of the other way around. I will admit I've done it. But we eventually learn that our intentions should come first. Then we find the appropriate tools to accomplish our intent. So with surveillance, are we putting intent first or are we simply implementing things like AI powered cameras in our communities because they're a shiny new tool. Let's take the time to articulate our intent and understand our limitations under the law. The ACLU have a model bill which outlines some good limitations and transparency called COPS uh community control over police surveillance. I encourage you to have a look at that. >> Thank you so much. Perfect. to make sure to sign it. Welcome up. >> Hi, my name is Eric Hoover and I'm coming from Ward Three. Uh, today we stand at the precipice of a new era. Thousands of disjointed, isolated systems are rapidly coalesing into a single massive omnipresent and omnisient surveillance network directed at all of us. With the convergence of technologies like AI, drones, massive online databases with real time search capabilities, what once existed in dystopian science fiction is quickly becoming our reality. If you don't already have predictive policing, pre-rime, and panopticon on your 2027 bingo bingo card, you should. We've already seen law enforcement agencies abuse these systems to undermine constitutional rights of American citizens in the form of hundreds of warrantless searches related to protests. Just a quick reminder for everyone that protesting is not a crime in America. The truth is cops and the government don't even need to provide a reason to search these ALPR enabled databases. One cop simply just typed he he into the reason field. And they're not just using these systems to spy on protesters. They're hunting people who have had abortions or are stalking romantic partners as well. What is emerging is a vast interconnected network of cameras on every intersection, every squad car, every officer, every drone that tracks everyone's movements all the time. Our city is looking less and less like a free society and more and more like an open air prison. End the contracts with Flock, Axon, Skyo, and ban AI powered mass surveillance now. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. Make sure to sign in. Welcome up. >> Hi, I'm Mike Kerayashi from W 6. Um, I'd like to thank council members for unanimously passing a resolution to end service with lock cameras and look forward to an an ordinance on it. This is technology made for abuse. It's actually amazing just how many officers have been publicly caught and arrested abusing it to stalk people and act as predators themselves. Among the people victimized by flock cameras are constitutional observers and everyone who exercises their constitutional rights resisting ICE. Flock camera data goes to Palunteer and then goes to ICE and there's no limit to how much abuse how much they will abuse this. There are droves of stories all across the country also about people falsely IDed by flock cameras and receiving automatic citations that are that are a nightmare to fight. So far too often the supposed upsides of technology don't actually work and instead make our lives much worse. I remember when ticketing cameras were deployed on stoplights many years many years ago and they were quickly taken down because they just didn't work. We're in a similar situation except for with much much more abuse. Again, I'd like to thank the city council for passing this resolution. And thank you very much. I look forward to the ordinance. >> Thank you very much. Make sure to sign in. Welcome up. I know folks don't want to stand too close to the cameras, but do feel free to stand a little bit closer so you don't have to walk as far when you come up to the front. Welcome. Thank you. I'm a member of WHAM and Eyes off St. Paul and a W4 resident. The city must end its contracts with Axon Flax and Skyo and any others used to conduct AI powered mass surveillance. Police information on this technology is at best misleading and at worst misinformation. On August 18th, members of the public attended a community meeting where the police said their their drones don't use AI. When we looked at the manual and the Skyia website, it states that their drones use AI. Their drones are not used for surveillance, but in the same sentence, they also said that they use the drones for surveillance during the No Kings protest on March 28th. They also said that their drones could be used for surveillance during training. One officer also shared the following. He wishes he would have invested in Axon because he would have made lots of money. Axon is quote scary because they want to control the entire market. The city is using the Axon Fus community connect program. He described Fus as a single database that collects information and surveillance for everyone under quote a single pane of glass. I agree that Axon is scary and for what we can gather the police are creating their own little surveillance state. Why worry about the feds when the police are already spying for them? We know St. Paul's data was accessed for immigration purposes during Metro Surge. And we also know the police did not stop occupation forces from breaking the law. When we needed them, the police did nothing. And speaking of occupation forces, yesterday the Pioneer Press ran a front page story called Deadly Choices Made by AI about Russian drones using AI powered Nvidia chips to kill civilians. And guess who also uses AI powered Nvidia chips? Our Skyio drones. Yet, local news media broadcasts soft propaganda stories about our cutting edge police technology. No problem printing a story about Russia using this tech, but nothing when our own city is using it. Here's a relevant headline. Skyo drones used by St. Paul to spy on protesters. Used by Israel to genocide Palestinians. Militarized AI powered technology continues to advance at a pace that is increasingly difficult to keep up with. The only way we can ensure that this technology is not used to harm us is to end these contracts and ban AI powered mass surveillance immediately. >> Thank you very much. Make sure to sign in. Welcome up. >> Good afternoon everyone. I am from Ward 7 and my name is Jefferson. and flock safety and other forms of mass surveillance that we find ourselves facing nowadays present themselves as saviors to towns to police departments to cities everything in between that they can discover that they can prevent that they can help solve crimes they can track down missing persons everything in between and I'll be the first to admit that for some it can be a great benefit like for those that want to stalk their romantic partners ers for those that want to use immigration enforcement to break apart families. Tearing children from their parents, for uh police departments targeting writers of op-eds critical to them, for identifying and harassing protesters, for officers looking to track women who may have had an abortion. These are purposeful events that use mass surveillance with the express purpose of harming and distracting and taking down legal rights of people. Searching through seas of photos and videos to try and pin something on people that they don't like, whether it be personal, political, emotional uh antagonism. And I also want to talk about what can happen when it's not just purposeful events, but these surveillance systems get things wrong. This was just a couple years ago, but in a study, they found that one in 10 license plates scanned by Flock were misread to the order of what state it was from. One in 10. In the Flock system, it's not a local database. It's not a statewide database. It is a national a nationwide database that they pull from. Even one in 10, even if it's less than that, with billions and billions of hits each day, can lead to hundreds of millions of issues. >> Thank you very much. Make sure to sign in and welcome up. >> Hello, my name is Cedar Larson. I'm a resident of St. Paul and a member of Women Against Military Madness. I want to speak against any AI powered surveillance tools in St. Paul. Automatic license plate readers and drones are a violation of privacy and have been proven tools to serve the police. Skyo footage has been proven to actually be live streamed by police departments broadcasting arrests and police chases, not to mention the surveillance possible for police when drones are able to see directly into apartment buildings. This puts vi vulnerable and quite possibly horrible moments of individuals lives on the internet for anyone to see. Reviews have found that cameras had filmed hundreds of people and vehicles crossing streets, standing on sidewalks, etc. And this is an invasion of privacy. And because the drones are actually are sent after crimes have been committed, they do not actually prevent crime. Additionally, we know police and these corporations cannot be trusted not to share data and recordings with immigration enforcement like what we saw during Operation Metro Surge. We also know Skyo and Flock have tracked the wrong suspect and put their lives in danger in the process. Skyo is also complicit in genocide in Palestine as they've sent hundreds of drones to the Israeli occupation forces where they've been committing genocide for three years. Uh we know that Axon is a leading manufacturer of tasers among other equipments used by police and recently acquired Israeli company Carbine which makes AI powered quote emergency communications used by police. This props up Israel's tech sector which makes up 20% of the apartheid state's GDP and about half of their annual exports. We know that ma uh Axon is also complicit in the genocide of Palestinians as well as Skyio. This is not a fringe idea. The United Nations and Amnesty International are just two bodies who have declared the disastrous human rights uh abuses as genocide of Palestinians. And when we talk about the importance of not being complicit in genocide and human rights abuses, this means economic isolation of the state of Israel. Thank you so much. Thank you. >> Welcome up. >> Hello. Uh, my name is Jamie Neverton. I live in Ward 2. Uh, councilors, I thank you for the initial votes you cast to end the city contract with Flock, and I urge you in the strongest terms possible to expand that to all mass surveillance and all AI surveillance. Surveillance is not a synonym for safety. That is just the first fiction Flock and their ilk have expected us to swallow. Flock has demonstrated a clear and consistent pattern of false claims and outright provable lies. They have shown a careless, confident contempt of the public when they are caught in those lies. There is no reason to trust any claim that these surveillance companies are making. There is no reason to think this data will be safely and securely stored. There is no reason to accept that this data collection is somehow limited to only license plates or bad guys. There is no reason to assume that this data will not be misused, lost, sold, shared, or misplaced. And there is no reason to assume that flock will face any consequences at all the next time they are caught lying about those claims. They have done nothing to deserve the trust they expect from us. Surveillance is a tool and it is a responsibility. Like any tool, it can be used for benign or even good purposes. But it can also be used to exploit, harm, divide, silence, and so fear. Flock and these companies act entitled to our patronage and our trust and our data. But they have shown that they cannot and do not and will not be responsible with those things. They do not deserve our trust. They do not deserve our data. And they do not deserve a dime of our money. A reckless, unaccountable, and insecure surveillance apparatus cannot provide real safety to anyone. only an expensive illusion. I could speak for an hour on why these contracts should not be renewed, but I only have two minutes, so I guess the rest is up to you guys. Thank you so much. Make sure to sign in. Welcome up. >> You don't need to touch. >> Sorry. Hi, my name is Wyatt Miller. I live in Ward 4. Um, >> you can stand straight up. They'll pick you up. >> Sure. Okay. Um, so I wanted to talk specifically about Skyo. Um I agree with the other things but I would just want to make sure that the council members understand what SkyO is. Skyo um has a docked drone program program with St. Paul um in Minneapolis. Uh last month um there was a proposal to have Minneapolis police start a contract with SkyO and um the Free Palestine Coalition which I'm a member of and other groups mobilized to defeat that. In St. Paul it's a little bit different. Um it seems like from what we've dis discovered is that um the city or the police department was able to pass this new expanded doc drone program by bypassing the public process calling it an expansion of an existing program. We don't really know what's going on. We can't find any public record of the contract. We don't know how much money is being spent on it. The only dollar amount that's been published publicly comes as quote an estimate to the media from the police department itself. So we don't even know how much money is being spent. I think that's a real travesty considering that the latest budget is cutting things like the Dayton's Bluff Library. Um, we deserve to know how much money is going towards this program. Um, as others have mentioned, Skyo um is in a US company, but the reason it sells is the scaled up programs to institutions started when it sold hundreds of drones to the Israeli military for its genocide in Gaza. If it wasn't necessary before a genocide, it shouldn't be necessary now. And then I just want to also add SkyO um has been marketing itself in Minnesota saying that there are are safeguards in place due to Minnesota statute uh regulating use of drones. Those statutes contain really uh blank check exceptions including things like large public events where there's a threat to people's safety. Um those could be used easily against protesters. I personally have been at protests where St. Paul police will accuse me of committing a crime by standing in the street. It's not a crime I'm never charged. It's an intimidation technique. Giving them another tool to intimidate protesters is clearly a form of political weaponization. Um, so I urge you to disclose what that contract is and to take steps towards cancelling that contract. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. Make sure to sign in. Welcome up. >> Hi, my name is Paige Crawford. I'm a resident of Ward One and I already sent my full statement to Councilwoman Bowie. Thank you. I would like to thank the St. St. Paul City Council for holding this public hearing so that residents can voice our concerns about the mass surveillance technology that's being used in our communities. We are here today to demand that the city of St. Paul end its contract with SkyO, a drone manufacturer that has sold drones to ICE and to the IDF. The details of this contract have been hidden from public view. As people who have had this technology weaponized against our communities, we are also demanding transparency about the type of collaboration the city of St. Paul has chosen to do with big tech. These demands build on the recent successful campaign that defeated the Sky the proposed Skyio pilot program in North Minneapolis. So my question for the St. Paul City Council and everyone in a position of power in the state of Minnesota is this. Why are you willing to work with corporations that have used their technologies to commit horrific acts of systemic and direct violence against the people of Minnesota and across the globe? We claim to be a community committed to advancing progressive policies and community-led approaches to public safety. So if motans and the rest of the country have learned anything from this year's occupation and terrorization of Minnesota by ICE and CBP, it is that we keep us safe. Do you really want these frequently inaccurate technologies used to stalk residents and misidentify them, allowing so-called law enforcement officers to roll up with their guns drawn before they even know if they have the right person? I invite the members of the St. Paul City Council as people of conscience to seriously reconsider what it means to maintain a contract like this and the message that decision sends to constituents in the broader Twin Cities Metro. Do we want to be complicit in the violence that these technologies perpetuate or do we want to set an example and prove once again that motans we keep us safe? Thank you. >> Thank you very much. Make sure to sign in. Welcome up. [applause] >> Hi, Rob Blandley. I live at University in Lexington. I'd just like to read a few recent headlines. Um these are all within the past week. A grand jury in Ohio has refused to indict Cody Cody Morlock for destroying a flock camera in Cincinnati. Um, Legal Eagle did a wonderful uh little documentary that is a law firm speaking on behalf of the law firm on on their YouTube channel on how they believe cameras are probably illegal and maybe unconstitutional. Um, KBTX uh did Oh, this one was from the 14th. It's not in the past week, but the Flock CEO apologizes for misuse of its surveillance technology. Uh, that's a long article. Um, [sighs] oh, the internet in here is not liking me. Um, WFTV in Florida, Florida police are now setting up fake flock cameras to catch people destroying them because it's such a regular occurrence. Uh, let's see what else here. Uh, Texas searched flock cameras in Toledo, Ohio 71,389 times from June to July of this year. And people in Toledo do not know why Texas is surveilling but would like the cameras gone. That was from the Toledo Free Press. I can give you URLs to all this stuff. Uh 404 media did an article earlier today on uh how Flock CEO is lying to cops about uh them tracking a woman who did a who who traveled to self-administer an abortion and she was tracked across straight line state lines by Flock. Um, since Flock CEO's apology, which was about police, among other things, using Flock cameras to surveil their ex-girlfriends. Um, since then, he's lying about a different thing. You don't want to get this company on you. People who believe that we need toilet cams to keep us all safe are the bad guys. >> Thank you very much. Make sure to sign in. >> Welcome up. >> [clears throat] >> Hello, council members. My name is Bob Gunnan. I'm a resident of North Minneapolis. And although I am not one of your constituents, I think the story is relevant. As you probably know, a proposal to create a drones as first responders pilot program in North Minneapolis using SkyO drones was recently defeated in the Minneapolis City Council. North Minneapolis is an overpoliced, predominantly black community, but also has many Latinx and indigenous residents. It is no coincidence that they chose this community to try out these new police surveillance technologies. There were three components to the campaign that defeated the Skyio pilot. The first was the use of social media and public events by the Free Palestine Coalition which called out the Israeli military's use of SkyO drones in its genocidal campaign in Gaza. The second was a grassroots organizing by North Minneapolis neighborhood groups. I and others door knocked and circulated a petition centered on surveillance and the potential misuse of the collected data by the Minneapolis Police Department. We presented hundreds of petitions to council members. The third and the most relevant to today's hearing was a politically courageous stand by progressive council members to prevent the spread of police surveillance technology. These council members set a precedent that you as St. Paul council members can follow and strengthen. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. Make sure to sign in and welcome up. >> Yeah. Thanks council members for having this hearing. I was here last week. I'm just as opposed drones, drone camera, the whole works as I was last week. I just like I don't have a prepared speech. I tell a couple of stories. My grandpa worked in this building. I spent a year working in this building. I can remember walking in this building with no security, no having the ID, nothing. I had there must be a dozen sheriff down there at the at either end. Is this building more secure? I ask you, is this building more secure? I've been going to the state fair ever since I was a kid and you know there's always incidences you know there's rival kids and gangs and stuff like that but that you know the population's increased but there must be how many 20 40,000 people when I walk through the people are courteous people get along with each other you know and the uh amateur talent contest is my favorite thing that happens on the final night of the fair last year they a helicopter with a bright light disrupted that the entire the entire performance performance and it didn't just fly through once. It flown through several times. I I I would propose that these drones will be doing similar things. Then I went into the midway. I've been I love to walk through the midway. There was like armed militia there, you know. I mean, we're talking assault rifles and you have has have we really become that much more evil that we need this kind of security? You know, I ask you, come on. And this is the path we're on. And I say the salespeople, there must be really good sales people that are selling these drones. It's like you got to follow the leader. You know, they did it, so we did it. You know, is that is that really why we're getting it? Because we got a good salesperson. I mean, what's the motivation? Is it going to make us more? I was I spent a year in a war zone. This stuff intimidates me. You know, I got trauma from war and I don't I don't need this. You know, hovering helicopters. It just stirs the pot for me as it does others, I'm sure. So, that's it. >> Thank you very much. Make sure to sign in. Welcome up. Hi, I'm Steve. I'm registant a resident of Ward 3. And I'm going to just start out by saying yes, please cancel these contracts, but most more importantly, make sure that any future ones for any mass surveillance across any of the technologies that are doing that and the AI aggregation analysis tools for preventing and such of that nature. please uh prevent that from occurring with further technology and runs and whatnot for our city. Um now that's for all vendors right so flock axon skyio some of the other ones anything that would come up on that front um a lot of people have already talked to a lot of the ills and whatnot that comes with this type of technology and its use and part of it too is specifically all the errors have already come up as well and the problem is as people start talking about these and give the big brother analogies and everything else that gives this technology almost too much power, too much infallibility to it and everything because it does make mistakes, a lot of mistakes and these are well doumented mistakes and you cannot cover these all in two minutes. But the problem with invoking these images is the the veneer of effectiveness that it gives and everything. But story or not, these privacy and human rights issues are real that they do introduce. And it's whether it's, you know, coming from uh how these technologies are misused when they do work. It also comes from how they do not work and more importantly how they are perceived to maybe work when they do not giving the false confidence in them. That's you know at that point this could be issues could go on anywhere in collection of the data in evaluation of the data and then when you talk about statistical anomalies of any sort that is based on a series of factors that will so a series of factors that could come from previous bias based on the data or issues on how it was collected and all of this goes into the problem of the bottom line of the common mantra that's said around everywhere is you have nothing to worry about if you've done nothing wrong. The problem with this >> Thank you very much. >> Make sure to sign in. >> Sorry, I know they go by fast. Welcome up. >> Hello, Dan Bhorski. W five, esteemed council, esteemed um all my fellow citizens. I want to talk about uh budget. I want to talk about uh liability. Um this is a huge liability in a time of a budget, you know, crisis. And uh I think that the money could go towards uh a lot of other things. Minnesota jobs, St. Paul jobs specifically. Um you know it it also is undercutting any faith if there's any left between the citizens of St. Paul and the police force. And um so I'm just going to encourage you as stewards of our money to, you know, continue to guard that as you're doing. So, thank you. >> Thank you very much. Make sure to sign in. Welcome up. >> Hi, my name is Rob O' Conor. I'm a resident of St. Paul's Ward 4 and I've only lived in St. Paul very a few years and I'm here to ask the city to end any and all contracts for flock axio and skyio and ban the use of AI powered mass surveillance. The fact that these systems provide for warrantless surveillance and violate our right to privacy should be sufficient reason. You've heard tons of reasons. But I just want to emphasize to this city council that the residents of St. Paul have a particular interest in seeing these mass surveillance systems banned. We have declared ourselves a sanctuary city and this winter we proved exactly how strongly we felt about sanctuary for our immigrant neighbors. I have no need to remind anyone here that US citizens paid with their lives to defend sanctuary for our immigrant neighbors. It's well known that Flock and other AI powered mass surveillance systems are easily accessed by ICE for immigration enforcement and that the guard rails that they put up to prevent abuse of these surveillance databases are woefully inaccurate. In fact, during Metro Surge, ICE agents used flock databases to hunt down our immigrant neighbors. So, how have the citizens of St. Paul endured and battled and died during the nightmare of Metro Surge to have our city government turn around and participate in surveillance systems that assist ICE in their illegal activities. Essentially, we'll become a sanctuary city in name only if we use these systems. So, in light of what Twin Cities have already endured, there is no moral option but for the city council to ban the use of these surveillance systems. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. Make sure to sign in. Welcome up. [clears throat] >> My name is Ben Ames. I'm a resident of Ward One here in St. Paul. Um, I'm here to voice my support for the uh council's resolution to call on the city of St. Paul to cancel the contract with uh Flock. Um I am of the opinion that these Flock cameras are unconstitutional. In two minutes here, I don't have enough time to get into what would can take an entire semester of Fourth Amendment juristprudence, but defenders of cameras often cite to Knots versus United States um 1983 Supreme Court case. They often cite to dicta stating uh person doesn't have a reasonable expectation of privacy and their movements in a public place. But that's dicta of the case. They are not further reading into the opinion on how that was a very narrow opinion. The Supreme Court left open in that opinion that dragnet type searches of this type of magnitude would be probably answered down the road and likely unconstitutional. Um, I think the Supreme Court got closer to answering that question in Carpenter versus United States, a 2018 case where they said it's unconstitutional, the type of warrantless searches of cell phone data towers. Um, I think it's a unwise investment to have these flot cameras if down the road they could be called unconstitutional. Um I listened to quite a bit of propaganda in the past few weeks citing uh decreasing crime statistics statistics over the last three years and you know I think that's a kumhawk ergo posturehawk fallacy where it's not tied to it was because of flock. Um I'm here to support the council's resolution. Thank you for your time. >> Thank you very much. Make sure to sign in. Welcome up. >> Hello and pray Palestine. My name is Senette Wswis. I've spoken to this council before. Uh I'm a Palestinian American uh resident of Minnesota, a worker from Minneapolis, and the president of AMP Minnesota. And I am part I was part of the campaign to stop Minneapolis from bringing ICE and IDF SkyO drones to Minneapolis because our coalition firmly believes that no fantasy of stopping crimes is worth the greater crime of being complicit in fascism and genocide. It is for that reason that we are asking St. Paul to be transparent about their contract with Skyo and to give us the the level of transparency that will allow our community to organize to stop the SkyO contract and to end this contract with a technofascist company. Skyo has an active contract with the very entity that terrorized our community just this last winter. In the words of Minneapolis Council member Arin Chowy, to contract with Skyo in light of what happened during Metro Surge is nothing short of morally bankrupt. I am asking St. called to not be the cowardly twin city. We have just seen Minneapolis stop this contract and I am asking you to give us the tools to do the same. I have spoken to this council so many times about the genocide in Palestine. I wish I didn't have to give more examples of exactly what it means to be complicit. To be complicit in the murder of Hindra, the six-year-old who was shot with 355 bullets. 19-year-old Shaan burnt alive in a tent. my friend Salahur, a Palestinian American comrade of mine who was kidnapped by ICE just these last few months, a permanent legal resident. To contract with SkyO is to be complicit in the kidnapping and the murder of our residents, our neighbors, and my family back home. I am asking you to say no to the Skyio contract because this rests on a fantasy and a premise that the police are a goodfaith party that will only act in good faith if given surveillance tools that offer an opportunity for political weaponization and overreach. But we have seen with the murder of Marcus Goldman here in St. Paul, with the murders of Philando Castile, George Floyd, Jamar Clark, that law enforcement without community control of the police must not be given surveillance tools. Thank you. >> Thank you so much. Welcome up. >> Thank you, councel. My name is Jamon Ali. I live in Ward 4. Uh I wish to speak to the integrity of St. Paul as an organization and as a community. I happen to have been born in 1984, one of the most influential books I've read in my life is a book of George Orwell's book of the same title. I had no inkling that when I was reading that book in my youth and again throughout my life, that I would be witnessing and experiencing the very real actuization of the warnings highlighted in that book. We are truly living in a Norwellian state of affairs today. ALPR and similar camera technologies used by Flock, Axan, Skyo, and the similar um is a blatant violation of our fourth amendment constitution against unreasonable search and seizure period. Additionally, this technology relies heavily on data centers and AI systems. As others have mentioned, this technology has deep interconnection between uh ties to Israel, which they are pursuing a genocide in Palestine. Signing on to a contract with Flock or similar companies is tantamount to the St. Paul community and city signing on to that negative um impact on uh what what is happening in the Middle East. It is also tantamount to signing on to the negative uh environmental and social economic impacts uh that are very real as a result of these technologies. I believe uh believe that action is clear and that these apparatuses are should be uh disbanded. St. Paul has an opportunity to lead by example and say no to flock and its ilk and I support the resolution for and further pursue a ban on surveillance and any similar technology. We have been known as sleepy St. Paul of the two twin cities. It's time for us to wake up. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. Make sure to sign in. Welcome up. And at this point, I would do sort of a semi last call. Anyone else who hasn't spoken yet and wants to, it'd be helpful to see how many folks we have left, if you would get in line. Welcome. Thank you. Uh, my name is Sarah Martin and although I don't live in St. Paul, I worked as a nurse for 25 years at Region's Hospital. It's really hard for me to understand how this city can support and be so proud of a world-class trauma center and at the same time could do business with Skyo, a company which made it obscene fortune off the genocide of Gaza. Today is day 155 of that genocide. And just so we get some notion of what that is, is at the beginning of the so-called ceasefire, the official count of the known number of dead was 76,000 people. At least 28,000 of them children. That means 76 Palestinians were murdered every day. But that's no doubt a vast undercount. Reputable studies have cir have calculated that anywhere between 300,000 and 500,000 people have been killed and are buried under the rubble. Using those numbers, that means 300 to 500 Palestinians were killed every day. And Skyo played a part. It is now day 336 of the so-called ceasefire, which the Israeli military has broken about 4,000 times. Although Gaza has dropped out of the news, the genocide continues. Over 1,000 Gazins have been murdered, that's six kids a day. Palestinians have been forced into only 30% of their land, living in horribly unsafe conditions and impossible circumstances. The air strikes continue. Just in recent days, scores of people have been murdered and injured. Some where thousands were gathered near the sea to cool off in the brutal summer heat. others at a site where bread was being handed out because no fuel has been allowed in for 5 months. Municipal services are about to collapse. Wells are running dry. Sewage is piling up. Garbage can't be collected. >> Thank you very much. Please make sure to sign in. >> All right. I just want to say uh now's the time into the ceasefire resolution you pass. >> Please sign in. We need to give everyone equal time. Welcome up. >> Thank you. Don't. >> This may uh >> sound like a vent from the former St. Paul Saints bartender Benji Fishman. Pleasure to meet everyone. Um here we go. Uh the streets on my way here told me to say uh coupling less camera. Uh let us consider the down Blackhawk in Colorado too amid the industrial military complex. Uh my in-law is a retired Colorado K-9 unit personnel. Uh so the discussion on surveillance capitalism in the states you know uh let's let's do it. Uh the skies remains clear yet the grace or grocery store is absent in St. Paul and has been you know all summer. Um just keeping it local there. Um okay I feel like a Sidmer Myers cultural trigger unit. You know with the guitar they can influence large areas. Anyway I smoked weed on a commercial flight. Okay, I did that while I worked for one of these OEMs, not the ones listed here. Okay, Bill Murray's got caught with worse on a commercial flight. I've served wine to him, too. And the last time I saw him was at Birkshshire annual Hathaways meeting where Becky Quick seemed to have forgotten my name. Perhaps Stripes Too, the movie, you know. Uh, this happens, you know, all the time. Sports diplomacy. I invited myself to their party when I didn't receive a invite. I played guitar for the bar until Mike Sani came back. Now, after this smoking weed incident, I was carjacked at gunpoint. Uh the police report said it was a BB gun. Uh I I uh humbly disagree on that count. Um later, I testified for the state congressional committee on data practice management. Dope. Uh there's a disscent in that on torture um that was written this season that deserves a read. Um, and this is one of the many reasons, you know, I think I deserve to run for United States Senate this coming term, although I have no clue how. So, I have 10 seconds left, more to read. Um, I'll just say another in-law of mine as a former CEO of Target no longer responds to my texts and Audrey Carr and I don't want to live in a police state. Who? >> Thank you very much. Make sure to sign in. Welcome up. Hello, I'm Darnella Wade, a St. Paul resident and the chair of the Green Party of the fourth congressional district. We Greens drew up a resolution for our testimony today. The controversial police surveillance technologies regarded here will fail to make our communities safer. Consider the national uproar against flock. Flock cameras track the location, make, model, color, and time of arrival and departure of of vehicles, and can capture things as small as a toolbox in the back of the truck. But no one can attest to flock solving the problem of missing children. Flock regarding flock recording the movements of vehicles and pedestrians is not making children safer from abduction. Police and government agencies accessing flock cameras pose a security risk to innocent individuals. the access to such surveillance technologies by police and government agencies, entities with a tendency to abuse power is alarming. It is unsettling to imagine a flock database on our children's school bus pickup and drop off routines. Police have used Flock to stalk u spouses, bully and coerc people, and we deplore that. Flock has made mistakes regarding reading license plates. Flock um close to homes. The residents feel they're under constant and unwarranted surveillance. Flock is hackable due to old and outdated firmware. One case studies reveal 51 vulnerabilities. So, uh US screens re rejected. Rejected please. >> Thank you very much. Make sure to sign in. Welcome up. Good job. >> Hello, city council members. My name is Kirby. Thank you for holding this public hearing today. In 2024, the St. Paul City Council passed a ceasefire resolution as a sign of Palestinian solidarity. Today, I ask that you all continue your solidarity work by cutting the SkyO contract and banning AI surveillance in St. Paul. First, Skyo claims to make dual products, but the truth is is they make militarized technology. It's a drone manufacturer that profits significantly off genocidal mil military operations, specifically the IDF's war crimes against Palestinians. Palestinians don't deserve Skyo on their civilian streets, and so does St. Paul residents. We don't we don't need this in our streets. Second, we have seen across the nation police departments uh misuse Skyo's products to watch and surveil everyday civilians. And now, I don't know if you know this, but in 2025, Skyo actually had a major scandal where they were found that a police department saw that in their video marketing materials, they had surveillance technology that was tracking data from the police department. So, that's something to consider. It's not just that police are going to misuse this uh these products. It's Skydeo already is misusing their own products to spy on civilians and our city operations. Um, lastly, I just want to say that uh a huge step of good faith from the city council would be to release the contracts that the city council has with Flock, has with Skyo and has with Axon. Um, because clearly these surveillance companies like Skyo, Flock, and Axon only care about profits, not public safety, and certainly not St. Paul residents. So again, please release the contracts. Also, shout out to my socialist girlies on the council. You rock. Thank you for being good leaders. >> Thank you so much. Make sure to sign in. Welcome up. >> Hello there. I'm Daniel Hartman. I'm a Fidley resident. I have a simple question to explore tonight. Does this tech work? Machine learning, large language models, computer vision, all of these technologies, regardless of branding, derived from one fundamental concept, stochastic association. In a word, bias. Any machine that falls under the category of AI is not designed for accuracy. A camera with software that analyzes images for the police must compress that image into a numerical best guess of what it contains and then compare that best guess with other best guesses extracted from images of crime data. Images that are heavily weighted in favor of policing that has already been done. All this is without taking into account the effect of concentrating these cameras in areas that are already gasping for air under the pressure of overpolicing. To deny that there is bias in this data and therefore these systems is to deny the history of this state of this country of this world even. Further any algorithm powered by a AI is non-deterministic. Anything from the reading of a license plate to the association between data points is semi- random. There will never be a world where you can point to results derived from AI and say that you know it is right and that you know why it is unknowable. An algorithm that deals in probability and chance doesn't give you the right answer. And if stories of false arrests here and elsewhere are any indication quite frequently it will give you the wrong answer. That is the nature of the machine. So does it work? If your goal is to be able to point to something that is definitionally impossible to understand and avoid accountability by outsourcing your reasoning to a guessing machine, then yes, these AI machines are exactly what you're looking for. But if your goal is safety, true safety, then I must inform you that this is fundamentally not the solution, and it never will be. For anyone listening, the only way we fix this is with legislation, lest we find ourselves in this position again. We must fundamentally reform data law. Any data collection by a private company on an individual >> Thank you very much. Please make sure to sign on. >> Must be opt out by default and an individual must be allowed to choose version to opt in. >> Welcome. >> Hello. My name is Andrew. Um, security cameras are nothing new. Um, we I don't think anyone has a problem with security cameras. What makes these ALPRs different is that they're tied to AI networks. And so it's not just a camera. It is it has it's a network of cameras that has the ability to track your movements, etc. Um, keeping in mind that these are AIdriven that is not a free sale. Like in order to power these AI tools, we have to have data centers. We know that those are consuming our resources. We know they're expensive. And probably the biggest issue is that if you have a security camera and the cops want to see your footage, they need a warrant. With ALPRs, they just need to run a search on the tool that a private company is using to surveil all of us. I would encourage us to not give private individuals unlimited surveillance opportunities on the entire town. I actually am not a resident of St. Paul. I thank you for allowing me to speak here. I'm from Inenver Grove Heights. Uh we actually do not have any flock camera flock flock or axon or any of the aloprs. We actually don't have those cameras in Inenver Grove because we believe that it is a violation of our fourth amendment. I would ask that St. Paul be good neighbors and not violate my fourth amendment rights as well. Um and I I appreciate it. One more fact or one more point is the selling point for these for flock for all these companies is they claim that it's going to reduce crime. But I would ask you why do people commit crime? Because I would argue that it's for basically two reasons either desperation or anger. And people aren't happy about these flock cameras as evidenced by the vandalism crimes that are occurring all over our nation as people are cutting the the flock cameras down. If they weren't there, that crime wouldn't have happened. >> Thank you very much for your time. >> Make sure to sign in. >> Welcome up. I do want to do Okay, looks like we've got two folks left to testify and then we will close our public hearing after or three folks left. >> Hi, my name is Kim D Franco. I've been a resident in St. Paul for about 30 years and ward 4 uh residents. Now, I can't be as eloquent as the uh people that have been testifying, but I just want to stress the importance of getting rid of any type of surveillance companies. Uh don't do business uh with them and especially if they're uh if they're any way connected to the genocide in Palestine. I mean, you've heard the statistics again. I'm glad that we did a ceasefire a couple years ago. So let's move forward in not being complicit by not having these contracts and also you should cut the contract of wealth waterfall security since they are an Israeli company and now they just get to be water monitoring our waters for five years now and it's kind of ironic that they monitor our water but they refuse to give water to the Palestinians. So, um, it's very frustrating to have leaders not take a stance, but I believe in all of you, you can stand up and fight back to with us. The residents are behind you and we should have no surveillance of anybody. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. Make sure to sign in. Welcome up. For those of you who believe that quote the city expresses its values in how we approach municipal contract, please start with your name and where you're coming from >> and that we should not quote enter into contracts with parties who are complicit in immoral behavior. This should be an easy call. Reject SkyO. As for flock and other intrusive surveillance technologies, security is not improved by big brother. It leads to oppression and dis dystopia. This has become personal for me. My organization, Veterans for Peace, along with several other social social justice groups, is being investigated by the federal government as a domestic terrorism organization. If you think you can secure surveillance data from improper use by a fascist federal government, I have a four-letter acronym for you. D O G. Does anybody know how much sensitive data Doge has stolen? Does anybody know what that data is being used for? And most important, is anybody being held accountable for the theft? The answers are no, no, and no. Stop fascism, reject unconstitutional surveillance, and cut ties with companies complicit in apartheid and genocide. >> Thank you. Please make sure to sign in. Welcome up. Okay, welcome up. >> His name was Mike. I'm Ally. I'm from Ward One. Um, it's going to be kind of short, sweet, but a little concise. As I'm sitting there, I my eyes glazed over as I'm listening to all of this information that everyone's bringing. There's tears in my eyes because this is very, very real. And we may not be, you know, Minneapolis, but we are still very strong and we have this sort of rebellious nature. And I will say that for every one camera that comes down, we have to pay for another camera to go up. So, it's not very coste effective to keep them anyway. Um, I am a Navy veteran and I served on a ship. I did go to the straight of Hormuz and I was one that navigated it. It was a very stressful situation. I had to track a Russian sub. There was a Chinese ship with me. I was 18 when that happened and it was, you know, I was eating a bag of hot Cheetos and drinking Blue Monster. I didn't know what I was dealing with. But now that I'm seeing this at the age I am now, um it it's unreal. just I I go for walks late at night. Some of you may have seen me. Um and that's where I do my grounding techniques and I have the mindfulness moment to myself while I find my way down Debbie Montgomery. Stare face to face at a flop camera. I didn't know what to do. I I didn't think I would see one, but there it was. And uh it it's it is a dystopian situation that we're living in. And there is disease. And I never thought that I would be feeling that here in St. Paul because this has always been considered one of my safe spaces. And instead of getting garbage cans for Selby or, you know, getting library set up and gone or anything really, we're doing surveillance where we surveil each other. It was very real when you said we we're governing ourselves at this point and we are very strong to the point where I don't think we need them regardless. >> Thank you very much. Make sure to sign in. All right, last but not least, welcome up >> distinguished members of the city council. My name is Susan. I live in Ward One. I was very active uh during Operation Metro Surge. I was told that I should stick to one aspect of the effort and unfortunately I was not able to do that. Spread myself a little thin but I saw many examples of people working to help who were targeted by ICE agents for delivering groceries um protecting our neighbors. And it was because their license plates were being tracked by ALPRs. I mean, of course, any member of the ICE patrol can simply run a license plate, so that was part of it. How they had access to that. I mean, I guess they get access to everything that law enforcement gets access to, which it was very disappointing. I mean, not that I was that surprised, but it's horrifying when you hear people on a call say, "Oh, why is there an ICE agent outside my house? I didn't know they knew where I lived." because, you know, you use all kinds of, you know, names, you use fake names and and whatnot to try to protect your identity, but the second you show up in your car, they know exactly who you are and where you live. So, that was disturbing. Another disturbing thing was finding out today that the contracts that we have for surveillance in St. Paul were done without apparently the knowledge or consent of the city council, which is very anti-democratic. I elect people or I elect people based on the understanding that they have some sort of control or say over what kind of technologies are used with my tax dollars. And my tax dollars are being used and I can't even yell at anyone about it because it just happened. It just sort of happened without anybody knowing about it. And I am very angry about that. And I guess better late than never. I hope something is done about it. Uh thank you for your time. >> Thank you so much for your time. Make sure to sign in. All right, with that, uh, I'm going to make a motion to close the public hearing. All in favor say I. >> All opposed. >> Seven in favor, none opposed. Public hearing is closed. >> As I said at the beginning, um, I we really reserve this time for you to speak, not for us to speak and for us to listen. I want to thank all of you for being here. You have given us a lot to think about. Um, and we will be processing this and deciding how to move forward. I do want to encourage folks. Um, the nature of these meetings is a one-way conversation, which isn't really a conversation. I encourage you to follow up with your individual council member after today to express more, to hear more, to hear how people are responding, um, to talk about next steps. Um, and we will move forward. So, thank you all again for your time. And with that, we are adjourned. >> [music] [music] [music] >> I got [music] heat.