everyone. >> All right. Good evening and welcome to the 2026 St. Paul Police Civilian Internal Affairs Review Commission's annual summit. Uh my name is Aaron Hayes and I'm the current chair of the PCR. I'd like to take a moment first to introduce the other commissioners that are currently serving. Um Vice Chair Laura Forstrom, Commissioner Webb, who is on her way. Um, Commissioner Chavevel Webb, that is Commissioner Mike Rodmaker, um, Commissioner Dan Featherstone, Commissioner Emily Peterson, and Nancy Commissioner Nancy Rodenberg, who could not attend tonight. Um, we're community members. We're volunteers who give our time to do this very important and often difficult work. I want to thank each and every one of them for their commitment to public safety and transparency. It truly is an honor to partner with you in this work. Today, we are here to create a space to share information, to answer questions, and most importantly, to hear from you. St. Paul has had civilian oversight in place for a long time. When our commission was created in 1993, St. Paul was not looking to others for direction. We were setting it. As one of the first communities in the nation to adopt an oversight model, we made a deliberate choice that community voice would be a part of police accountability. At the time, our options for oversight models were limited by state law and by the newness of civilian oversight of law enforcement. The model that St. Paul adopted in 1993 is what's called review and recommend. And that is our commission reviews investigative materials that are prepared by St. Paul Police Department's internal affairs and we make recommendations to the chief who ultimately determines outcomes and disciplines. It's important to note that this commission on its own has no authority to impose discipline on officers. We make recommendations to the chief who has the final say on the disposition of all cases that come before us. For more than 30 years, this structure has not fundamentally changed. There's value in our history and in the leadership that our city showed in leading the way to establishing a civilian oversight model. It shows that this community stepped up early and recognized the importance of oversight. And I'm proud that we were leaders. But we also have to be honest with ourselves. Our community today is not the same as it was in 1993. Policing is not the same as it was in 1993. The current times call for more transparency, more clarity, and more accountability. Across the country, communities are taking a fresh look at their oversight systems and asking whether they still meet the moment. Civilian oversight models span from structures like ours to bodies that have independent investig indiv independent investigators and discip disciplinary authority such as Chicago, Milwaukee, and Detroit. The 2023 2024 Minnesota legislator legislature removed the barriers that have kept St. Paul in a review and recommend model. What comes next is up to us. This is our opportunity to decide whether we are ready to lead again the St. Paul way. You will hear information today about how our current system works as well as the data collected in the process. But just as important as the time we will spend hearing your questions, your concerns, and your ideas, trust does not come from what is written on paper. It comes from whether people believe the system works. Civilian oversight is meant to provide that confidence. It creates a place for questions, for concerns, and for accountability that the community can see. But this only works if we are willing to take a hard look at what we have. Today should be the start of a conversation about whether our current model truly meets the needs of our community and our times. And with that, I'd like to invite current mayor and former PCR commissioner Khali her to share her thoughts and help us continue this conversation. >> [applause] >> Thank you, Chair Hayes. Good evening, everyone. Thank you to the members of the Police Civilian Internal Affairs Review Commission for your service and commitment to the city of St. Paul, especially in these last five months. I want to begin with a personal note. Before standing here before all of you, I had the privilege of serving as a PCR commissioner myself. I know firsthand the impact of this work. I know the long meetings, the difficult conversations, the weight of reviewing complaints fairly and thoughtfully, and the responsibility that comes with helping build trust between community and public safety institutions. As a former PCR commissioner, I deeply value the review process and your dedication to fairly evaluating complaints and making recommendations that help ensure accountability when police misconduct occurs. The current PCR structure itself reflects years of thoughtful work and reform. As Aaron mentioned, it grew out of a 2015 review conducted by the University of Minnesota's Center of Restorative Justice and Peacemaking, a model that was first implemented shortly before I became a commissioner. I had the opportunity to see the transition up close and it reinforced for me how important it is that cities continue to evolve and improve oversight systems in partnership with the community. Because at its core, PCR represents something fundamental about St. Paul. The belief that community voices matter in shaping the culture of our city, especially when it comes to interactions with law enforcement. Community involvement cannot just happen during moments of crisis. It has to be built into the everyday systems of government. It has to be structured, consistent, and meaningful. And PCR is one of the ways St. Paul has chosen to do that. The work of the commission is crucial to our city and we will continue to make it a priority to engage with you on improvements we can make to best serve our community. My vision for community first policing starts there. Community first policing means recognizing that public safety is not something done to community. It is something built with a community. It means listening before reacting. It means transparency over defensiveness. It means accountability alongside support for the many officers who serve honorably every day. It means understanding that strong relationships between residents and law enforcement are not optional but essential for safer neighborhoods. PCA plays a critical role in that vision because oversight and accountability are not signs of weakness in a system. They are signs of a healthy system that is willing to listen, improve, and evolve. I want to acknowledge both the both the community members and the law enforcement leaders in this room tonight. Real progress only happens when people stay at the table together, especially when conversations are difficult. St. Paul's always been strongest when we choose to we choose engagement over division and collaboration over distrust. We look forward to continue to work collaboratively with you to increase transparency, strengthen PCR's processes, and build trust in our shared commitment to accountability. To the commissioners, past and present, thank you for your service. To the community advocates, thank you for continuing to show up and to speak up. And to our officers and department leaders, thank you for your partnership and commitment to serving this city. Together, we have the opportunity and the responsibility to keep building a St. Paul where accountability, public trust, and public safety move forward hand in hand. Thank you. [applause] All right. I'll now invite up assistant mayor, newly assistant mayor, um Cedric Baker to come speak a bit about the office of neighborhood safety. Welcome, sir. >> Hello, everyone. Can you hear me? All right. Hello, everyone. Um, thank you so much for having me. I first want to say thank you to uh Mayor Her and her words and her commitment to this work and also everyone in this room. Thank you so much for your consistency and um just your ability to stay at the table to have really important and crucial conversations. Uh my name is Cedric Baker and I am the assistant mayor over people and neighborhood uh vitality. The reason this is important for you to know is um just as Sierra mentioned um I joined the uh administration in January and I first started um in the office of neighborhood safety over leading that work and during that time and I'll have um Toy Vixavon come up a little bit later to introduce himself and to provide some words. Uh but during that time we really focus on I focus on really understanding the office of neighborhood safety getting deep into what has happened what has transpired and then uh working on um what remains in the future for us to work together with um different organizations and even um different institutions. And so what I'd like to do today is talk a little bit about what we've accomplished over the last year and also talk about where we're going and then at the end make sure I introduce my colleague uh to Vixavone. I wanted to start off by saying that the office of neighborhood safety um is fairly new here in the city of St. Paul but have done some powerful work um and really the unique nature of the role. Um we are not specifically law enforcement even though we have really really close enduring relationships with St. Paul public um excuse me St. Paul PD um the team really does its best to interrupt cycles of crisis and when I speak a little bit later it's about um our unsheltered homeless population but also um those that are dealing with group violence and specifically gun violence. Um I feel like the unique nature of the office it it really focuses on really getting at the root of what's going on. And so we spend a lot of time trying to really understand everyone's story. Everyone has a story. Everyone has an experience. And the better we understand that experience and that story, the better, in my opinion, that we're able to really deal with that issue on what caused that individual or that person to go down a path that we all would like them to change. And so we don't do this alone. We do it in partnership with other departments um closely with other departments such as PD, fire, others um to really do our work well. There's a lot going on in this slide, but mainly what I'm really trying to highlight here is um the office is uh fairly new and the concept even though we've been doing aspects of the concept in the city um really pulling together this say an office of neighborhood safety as you see um we started um announced the program in 2022 and so since 2022 we've really been trying to build and better understand the needs of the community and how we can really meet those needs. You'll see um over time there's been milestones that have led us. And then our newest uh programmatic area which is familiar face is our unsheltered homelessness um support that I'll talk a little bit in more detail. So there are two main programmatic areas in the office of neighborhood safety. The first is project peace and it's really addressing as it says uh a trauma and community instability to reduce gun violence. Um that is really key for why this office was um set up. And we understand that there's a lot of other violence that it's going on. But the reason that we really focus on gun violence and we do other things but we focus on gun violence is because um we know that in many other jurisdictions um this has been a major major issue and plague and as we talk about the city of St. Paul here in our city as well um the office of neighborhood safety was created in the in the way that it was was because of issues of gun violence and overall community violence. And so the thing is we want to promote overall healing, healing of the individual but also healing of our neighborhoods as well where the violence has taken place. We also have uh familiar faces which is really preventing and diverting um individual crises through outreach and life coaching services to facilitate system connections and promote stability for the community within the homeless uh community. I say it this way. I feel like really our secret sauce in uh the office is our real strong connection with um we call it holding individual's hand along in the process. So this concept of life coaching is really going sometimes day after day, call after call and truly trying to understand and then supporting a plan for that individual. Uh one example could be u there could be an individual that is caught up in uh gun violence and we try to intervene uh with that individual. What we find out is that individual may need work. Well, that individual does not have a car. That individual does not have a driver's license. And so we try to figure out what is helping to uh cause that person to uh enter into this mode of behavior. And it could be in certain instances where we are helping individuals to actually get a driver's license so they can get to work to make money so they can stop uh doing some of the things that they're doing all the way to making sure that we're supporting um family. A lot of times there are family dynamics that are going on that are causing and leading to some of the crisises. Um that's almost uh that is also true for familiar faces. Um the reason we call it familiar faces is because there are they are familiar to a lot of um individuals that um they're we're serving they are serving ultimately when we see those individuals time and time after time sometimes in our ERS sometimes with our uh law enforcement um we are trying to interrupt that cycle and for us to do that we really need to better understand who they are what their issues are and how we can specific specifically support them. Um, with both of these programs, we don't do it alone. We do it in partnership with other uh, community service providers and also other jurisdictions such as uh, Ramsey County, uh, the state. Um, of course, I've already mentioned the police department and others. Um, we truly believe that the the work is important. We also believe that the partnership is just as important. And so the lines of communication, at least since I've been here, I've tried my best to support even stronger communications within these jurisdictions. Um, and I'll talk a little bit about our vision and where we're going. But before I go there, um, in particular within Project Peace, um, we are working and we deal with group violence intervention. It is an evidence-based violence reduction strategy that is used um all over the country um that shows uh shows progress and shows success. And so we use that here at the city. There's a little bit more information that you can see there, but we do that in partnership with u the police department and other jurisdictions. What I'm trying to convey here is um we owe a lot of gratitude to those um individuals that are out there in the field helping to support um and keep our um community safe. But if you look at this, this definitely connects with the creation of the Office of Neighborhood Safety. And so what we would like to say is that we are also a part of the solution and that um this alternative approach to violence is needed and we want to continue to partner with other jurisdictions and within uh city departments to make that a continued reality on the um overall violent crimes reduction. really quickly, uh, familiar faces. Um, I've, as I've been here at the city, I've gotten to learn just the important work that that team does and, um, the important work, um, that they do and how they, uh, partner, but also communicate with other jurisdictions and city departments. Um, it is overall a team of about three or four. Um, Chris Michaels who oversees that team, um, we call her an expert in the work. um she has vast experience um of dealing with and supporting uh the unsheltered homeless population. But what that team specifically does is they come alongside those individuals, those familiar faces that we talked about. Um and really try our best to make sure that we are putting them in housing. Um we are supporting them with the mental health support that they need and also um navigating substance abuse as well. Um ultimately that team works tirelessly every day outside uh on University Corridor um all over the city, downtown to make sure that we are connecting with individuals and making sure that those individuals understand that they have access to services, but also those individuals are sometimes getting a helping hand and a drive to appointments to make sure it is a reality. um these individuals for a lot of different reasons are navigating trauma and so we want to make sure that we are respectful and and making sure that we create dignity in that process as well. Uh the last uh area that I wanted to talk about and I thought that would be really really interesting and am I am I going a little bit too long? Okay, I'm okay. Um is our neighborhood safety community council NSEC. NSEC um is created in ordinance and it supports an over it's an advisory council um of community members that uh provides a perspectives, advice and overall insight to the office of neighborhood safety and then ultimately to the city. Um those individuals or community members that are giving us insight on what's happening in their neighborhoods. They're telling us what's working and potentially what's not working. They're giving us insight into our strategy. We're having conversations with them on telling them our plans and they are giving us insight on if they believe that it's going to work or not. They're also uh following up and saying how things are going. And so they have been instrumental in the office of neighborhood safety and our overall support to better understanding the community and the needs, but also giving us insight into other ways and means in which we can do a better job uh in supporting Cross terrace users, this is North End staff. >> I'm going to pause. >> We ask at this time if you are not a part of the rental, please gather all of your belongings and exit the field. Again, we ask at this time if you are not a part of the rental, please gather your names and exit the field. Thank you. >> Uh the last thing that I'll say about NSEC is that um they have been crucial to the overall strategy of the Office of Neighborhood Safety. um but they also come at it with a lens of trying to make sure that they're giving us insight into an alternative community safety or public safety approach and so they're um really boots on ground really helping us in that way. Um some people just want to see the numbers and these are some of the numbers in 2025. Uh, Project Peace had 35 active clients as they were ramping up um to uh staff up uh 31 custom notifications with um the police department. Um over a thousand interactions with clients and that could be um from the connections that we have um throughout the week all the way to making sure that we are taking those individuals to appointments so they can meet their goal and uh get themselves off the track of uh violence. uh familiar faces. Um I think uh one of the biggest things and I don't think it's uh on here that number actually is a little bit higher after we ran the numbers. I think it was closer to 50 clients um that they moved into stable housing which is amazing. Um 415 people reached out uh to and then 570 services performed. Uh neighborhood safety uh a part of the neighborhood safety community council is an award. So there are uh connections uh when I say award uh it's more with uh we call them professional services agreements and so we connect with um community partners um to help us better do the work and connect um with the community and so we went through a process and we provided $312,000 $500,000 to partner community based organizations to help us do the work. we're not always the subject matter expert in some of these things when it comes to mental health support um and other things. And so we uh we support other community based organizations who have trust in the community and have insight in ways that um we don't always have. Um can I just say moving forward um one of the things that we've been working on is really focusing um our support and our structure and trying to get uh further upstream in that support. And so sometimes um one would say even in our prevention intervention even aversion work um it's uh maybe a little bit too late at times. And so how do we get further upstream? And so we've been working with um other departments and other jurisdictions to start to think more holistically on how to support um these individuals at a younger age. We have a very important um relationship and partnership with St. public schools because we see a lot of those things happening in the schools. Um, and so we are in the schools as well. Another thing that I'd really uh highlight is we've been focusing on better understanding the unmet needs. Um, and how can we be a part of the solution in the office of neighborhood safety as we move forward. So, we're already doing a lot of great work, but there's so much work that we can do. And then um lastly um we have been thinking about this and I really appreciate Mayor Hur's kind of vision on this around more of a regional approach when it comes to uh gun violence or even um unsheltered homelessness. Um those individuals um are coming from a lot of different places, right? And so um uh when things happen at Minneapolis, we see that those some individuals come over our site uh come to city of St. Paul, other individuals may come from city of St. Paul to uh Minneapolis or other uh cities. So we are having to think through how do we have a greater regional approach to this work because if we are really only siloed and only thinking about what we need to do in the city of St. Paul actually we think that that's woefully inadequate and that we have to start thinking more regional in the approach which means that we have to start communicating better and we have to start making sure that we understand what's happening in some of these other jurisdictions so we can support um uh those individuals that um are here in the city. Uh as I am you can see this is just an org chart. As I'm saying that, I would like to um uh bring uh Toy Vixivant, who is the current director of Office of Neighborhood Safety. Uh you also see here our deputy director, Rachel Holmer. Uh Faith Loftton, who's over project peace, and then Chris Michaels, who's over familiar faces. And I just would like for toy to greet you and um end this part of the presentation. >> Thank you, assistant mayor. That's actually a good picture of me. Um, thank you for having me. Uh, just to echo what the assistant mayor Senator Baker is saying, we are committed to the community to be a resource for the community community and I will, uh, continue the great work that's been done by ons. Thank you. >> And with that, um, please know that we are here to answer any questions that you may have. we are here to um give you more insight into what we do in the office of neighborhood safety. And then lastly, uh we just we want to know what you know. We want to know what's going on in the community. We care. We understand um that at times um you may not always be having um relevant information, but we want to be that conduit of information. So if there are things going on in your neighborhood, there are things that align with our scope of work, please reach out to us. Um, of course, uh, Director Vix Savon, but myself, um, we just want to make sure that we're partners in the work. And with that, I will turn it back over to C. >> Thank you, assistant. >> Thank you, assistant Baker. Uh, we have about five minutes for questions. Um, I've got a microphone here. If you've got a question that you'd like to ask of the assistant mayor, I will happily bring the microphone to you. >> And I would also like to say that I um welcome uh Director Vixong if you would like to come up with me and field some of these questions. [laughter] >> I love that as well. >> He's got to get his steps in, right? Oh, >> I just like I'd like to ask um I'm Na Presley. I'm the president of the NAACP St. Paul. Um I looked at your track records really good. I have to personally say that I did interface with um Office of Neighborhood uh safety. I wanted to know um out of all your clients, what's your followup? Do you continue to track or um see how um people that you are servicing um how they're doing over a period of time? >> Uh great question and yes, we do. Um and so it also depends. There are some individuals that um we have um stayed connected with um we they graduated out of the program so to speak um but we stay connected with them so we we feel like we understand what's going on and then there are a lot of individuals that um have not necessarily graduated out of the program. We've had some individuals that we stay connected with for 2 years, right? So we consistently are meeting with them. um things change in the home, maybe there is a relapse, maybe there is an issue that ends up happening. Um some instances uh the individual may go to jail. When they get out, we are still here to say, "Hey, um we want to help. We want to be a part of the solution. If you're willing, we're willing." And so it just depends. Um I think that's the beautiful nature of our work is that everyone is uniquely different and we see them as such and we try our best to stay connected with them. So, we do stay connected, but I can't say that everyone just automatically kind of graduates out of the program. >> Um, this is Sierra, Assistant Mayor Baker. You mentioned partnership and working together and being part of the solution. I would love to hear just briefly, what is your flow of communication like with St. Paul Police Department? How do your departments work together? It's a It's a real big project for sure. >> Uh maybe I'll start and then I'll pass it over to Director Vixon. Um I think it's good. I think that um one of the best things that um I've been able to do is better learn um some of the ways and and some of the uh partnerships that have already been established before I got here. Right. And so a part of this um even though I think I started in the middle of uh operation metro surge which was a lot going on at that time we had opportunities to meet um there is a meeting that's a reoccurring meeting that I have recently been a part of where uh PD is at the table and so I'm actually sitting down and meeting with individuals from PD specifically uh the chief chief Chief Henry um each week uh and so I think that the flow of information is really it's it's good. I think that in all things things could continue to be better and that's why we feel so good and honored to have uh director Vixavine coming on board. We believe that he will um make that partnership even stronger than it is now um based on his connections, his experience and his insight but uh director I don't know if you want to say anything >> just a little bit to add uh yes the information the uh uh communication is very important. Um we meet weekly with uh the police department and St. public schools to discuss what group of kids are are um need our help so that it continues it will continue and it's important for us to have a a strong relationship uh we can be in a supportive role for the police department where if there's a victim of a crime we can come in and support the victims. >> Thank you very much gentlemen. Sure appreciated it. Oh, if only I were that tall. All right. Um, hello again everyone. My name is Sierra and I'm the coordinator of the Police Civilian Internal Affairs Review Commission. I am not on the commission. I do not uh make a vote in these cases. Uh but I was previously a commissioner. Um Mayor Her and I our terms just barely we barely missed each other. It's very close. I'm going to be sharing some data with you from the PCR annual report. This is going to be a fairly brief summary of the very thick report. Uh we have physical copies at the back of the room there and then we'll also have digital copies posted to the website. Um so I'm going to go through this relatively briefly but then I encourage you all to dig into the annual report and then of course uh when we get to our panel please ask lots of questions of our community leaders. All right. Uh so police civilian internal affairs review commission is a bit of a mouthful. Uh so this is my little pronunciation guide. We go by PC Arc. All of our commissioners are residents of the great city of St. Paul. Um, and quick plug, we are always looking for new commissioners. We do have two current openings. So, if you or someone you know may be interested in serving, um, reach out. I would love to talk about it more with you. So, a really important part of my role is reducing barriers to this process and meeting with community members. So under state law, for a complaint to have the ability to undergo this community review process, there has to be a written incident statement accompanied with by a signature and that constitutes a formal complaint under state law. So if a community member has an experience with a s St. Paul police officer that doesn't go as it should, they have a right to file a complaint and they can file a complaint online using our form. We can set up a meeting in our offices in city hall. They can meet with internal affairs at the police department or we can set up another meeting in community. Um I use a lot of library study rooms and other community spaces to meet with folks to ensure that they're able to access this process. So um complaints come in, they can come in through any number of ways. This is a quick snapshot of the complaints total external complaints received from community members in 2025 and this is from all complaint sources. So you can see there was 108 complaints filed last year and 44 of those were uh slated to go for PCR review. Again, I'm I'm not going to read every number here, but um I do want to ensure that you all have an opportunity to take a look at this data. These these columns here are a breakdown of the complaints that were not eligible for PCR review. And the reasons why that was the largest the largest category of complaints that came in that were not eligible for PCR review last year were due to an open criminal or civil case. And um that is that is typically on the complainant side. Now those cases are closed. Those when those complaints come in, they are typically closed. Though the community member does have the ability to request that the investigation is ongoing um while that case is open. That can be a little bit of a confusing category, but um essentially those complaints are closed to avoid muddying the waters. Avoid um yeah, avoid muddying the waters with the case as it is ongoing. And then the second largest category is that the complaint was filed about someone who is not an employee of the city of St. Paul. We are proud of how accessible this complaint process is. Um, unfortunately that's not the case with every city. And so a lot of times when folks look to file a complaint, they find our complaint form quick and easy. Um, but it's not always the appropriate avenue. So the internal affairs commander and I always follow up with those complaintants to ensure that they have access to the appropriate avenue for their complaint. All right. So complaints come in um they are reviewed and as mentioned earlier all of the complaints are investigated by the folks in the internal affairs unit. Uh St. Paul police's internal affairs unit is led by uh Commander Schwab and two sergeant investigators. You'll have the opportunity to hear from Commander Schwab in just a little bit here. The PCR reviews the report that is compiled by the internal affairs unit. And y'all, this is some really extensive work. Um, in May, the body worn camera footage alone was about 30 hours um that these community members took time to review. They also read the complaint, the officer statements, and all other evidence that the internal affairs unit compiles. They then make recommendations to Chief Henry on the outcome of these complaints um regarding whether or not a complaint is sustained, if discipline should accompany should result from the complaint, and if there's an opportunity for policy to be strengthened based on the information that the commission reviewed. Oh, uh those commission meetings, by the way, are open to the public, at least the beginning portion. So, you can check those out online or come join us in person at different uh recreation centers around the city. And last year, the commission reviewed 30 cases uh with 83 total allegations. And based on that breakdown, you can see that improper procedure was far and above the most frequently received allegation. Essentially the complaint is that proper procedure was not filed and followed in this incident. So of those 83 for each of those 83 allegations that the commission reviewed um one case often has more than one allegation this is the breakdown of the dispositions that the PCR uh recommended. So you can see about 20% of those allegations for about 20% of those allegations the PCR recommended the disposition of sustained but 80% of those allegations they recommended something other than sustained either that there's just not enough evidence to tell one way or the other that yes what the complainant stated in their complaint did occur but no policy was violated here or that the allegation is false or just not factual. So for each of those 19 recommendations of sustained, the PCR makes a recommendation of disciplinary action as well. Uh so these are the disciplinary actions that are available to the PCR to recommend in order of least severe to most severe. One thing that I want to note on this slide here too is that so 19 times the PCR made a recommendation of a pol um recommendation of sustained and a disciplinary action. 19 of those and 14 of those times, so the vast majority, they also recommended retraining. And to me, 14 out of 19 times recommending retraining, I think that really speaks to the PCR's dedication to continuous improvement, to ensuring that those officers have the support that they need to continue in their careers and for ongoing improvements to service provided to our community. So 19 recommended disciplinary actions. Vast majority of those 12 of the 19 were in the category of oral reprimmend which is the lowest level of discipline that the commission is able to recommend. So the PCR reviews those complaints. They make recommendations to Chief Henry and under the PCR model, the chief of police issues the final decision on whether a complaint is sustained and if so, what the appropriate level of discipline is. And of course, um, St. Paul police officers are union employees. They do have the ability to file an appeal if discipline is implemented. And then once this very extensive, very thorough process finishes up, then um the complaint is closed and the community member that filed the complaint receives a letter to let them know whether or not discipline was implemented as a result of that complaint that they filed. Uh so also um Chair Hayes mentioned some of those changes made to state law in recent years by the state legislature and one of those is that when the chief of police um disagrees with a recommendation issued by the by a civilian oversight board then that then the chief of police will share that letter write out the the change the rationale therefore and share that with the full body of the commission. Um, and so this here is a quick chart. We call that a departure, a change from where the chief departs from a recommendation issued by the PCR. And so here's a quick chart of those departures from 2025. All right, folks. I just threw a whole lot of numbers at you. Um, I really do encourage you to take a look at that annual report. And, um, we're going to have an opportunity in just a few minutes here for you to ask questions of our community members, oh, sorry, of our commissioners, of our internal affairs commander, of our chief of police. Um, but before we get to our panel discussion followed by Q&A, I would like to welcome up Chief Henry, uh, who has been our chief of police since 2022. >> Thank you. Thank you, sir. >> Well, they don't give me a super strict list of things to talk about, so I thought I would speak to just one thing that I thought was super important that was previously addressed. >> Sorry, got it at toy height here. I think um there was a question that was asked that I think is super important to get some clarity on about um how the police department communicates with the office of neighborhood safety and the programs in there. We have a process called making a referral. So, what I what I want you to imagine is that maybe I'm a a young person or a you know in my 20s and I'm out involved in gang and gun violence or group violence. Um, obviously the police department's going to hold you accountable for that. So, let's say I get arrested uh for a crime and we recover a gun and maybe I've even shot someone. There's obviously going to be criminal consequences to that. But, let's say my little brother looks up to me and he's always riding in the car with me and I'm his hero. we recognize that that person's pro probably on a path that might lead them to a to an outcome that I have. So, we would make a referral in that case. And that could look anything like uh we figure out that he's got an uncle in Minneapolis who he's really tight with who has influence over. Maybe it's a coach at the school or a teacher who he responds well to. And that's our goal is always prevention. That's the gold medal for us. If uh we have someone we make a referral on, it's intervention. We're trying to improve that. and we do do a lot of enforcement and that does help us backs stop these processes, but those referrals are coming in all the time. I will tell you that in the worst case outcomes for the people that do face criminal charges, we're even applying that process later on. So, Redwing is the facility where probably the people who have committed the worst offenses end up going as juveniles. Um, we recently had a program there where 30 of the people that we worked with. So when they got locked up and went to Redwing, we didn't stop talking to them because at some point they're coming out and some point they're going to get reintroduced into a school system. Uh we want to make sure that that school system isn't a place where rival groups are at or they're going to run into a problem. And of those 30 kids, 28 have not reaffended. So that's a 96% success rate there. Uh and so this type of process really does work. Those referrals are happening all the time. I'm very excited to hear that uh director Vixavong is going to be starting a referral system with our school system so that there's a feeders coming in from every place and really um when Brook Blakey started the office of neighborhood safety um we really worked hard to make make it be the place where we could corral all these resources. If St. Paul is strong in any area it's the fact that we have tons of people that want to help and want to contribute and make people successful. So I just wanted to to highlight that piece just real quick. Now, I'll just talk really quickly. I think my job is to introduce the folks that haven't come up to the panel for the Q&A. But beforehand, I'll just say one thing. One of the things I get asked the most when I talk to community meetings or I go into neighborhoods is is what can I do? What can I really do? And I think a lot of people think I'm going to say something like invest in a whole bunch of cameras on your house or, you know, do a bunch of different things. There are all kinds of ways you can show up in the community to help support public safety, help to support strong communities, and I would never tell you not to do any of those. But I will tell you that being a member or or or signing up to be a member of PCR is an incredible way to give back to our community. It is a really really important function that it underpins many of the things that we do. You would think the kind of the Hollywood cliche is the police department doesn't like the internal affairs unit and it doesn't like civilian oversight and all those things, but we want to be the best police department we can be. We want our officers to be the best they can be. And just like professional teams and and organizations, we review our work after we do it and we say if we can do something better, we need to do that better. So if you are looking for a way to be involved in this city, look no further than the PCR. It's a really, really good opportunity and we need people from every part of this city, from every background, from any group, it doesn't matter. We want St. Paul residents and community members to be a part of this process. So, with that, I'll just say that's be my one ask of you is keep it in mind, think about it, uh, put it on your bucket list, whatever you want to do. But, uh, I think next I'm supposed to bring up the panelist. >> Yes, sir. And join the panel. >> All right. I'm going to join the panel. We'll keep them the rest of the time for Q&A. You're here. >> Thank you, Chief. >> All right. >> No arms. Like arms. Cheers. [clears throat] >> Awesome. All right. Well, y'all have heard a whole lot from me. You've had an opportunity to hear from the chief. Um, but to begin our panel, I would like to turn it to the commissioners. So, commissioners, why did you all join the PC Arc? And if I can begin with you, Chair Hayes. Um, we have a few mics here, but to ensure that the recording picks it up and so that all folks who are joining us online can hear, I'm going to ask folks to speak nice and close to that mic. Thank you. All right. Um, I've been part of the PCR as a commissioner for four and a half years. I think four and a half. Um, and served as chair for three of those. And the reason that I ultimately came to serve on the PCR is my son um went to JJ Hill Elementary and his very favorite person at school was Mr. Philando Castile. and I wanted to make a difference in my community and find ways to help prevent other tragedies like that from happening um through advocating for better policy, better training, and ultimately holding our um public safety officers accountable. and Vice Chair Forstrom. >> Um, I joined because I, um, like Erin, [clears throat] wanted to make a difference in the community and I, um, believe this was one way that I could, um, make a difference. >> Commissioner Ratimaker, >> uh, for me, I was encouraged by a lot of people, uh, police officers, my wife said that this would be something I would be good at. So, I decided the police have I've had positive and negative interactions with police in my life and I want to help try to make St. Paul's office the best police office in the city or in the country, excuse me. >> Commissioner Featherstone. >> Uh, for me, it was coming across the story of uh, uh, Connor Leel, who's a 14-year-old kid in Arizona who's autistic, who had an interaction with the police while he was stmming. and he was thought to be what was it under the influence of an inhalent. Anyway, this bunch of stuff happened. A St. Paul officer started a program called COP autism response education project. Officer Zinc way back in 2017. We were leaders then. I want to be part of that leadership now. >> Awesome. Thank you all. All right, Commander Schwab. Uh, if I can, we talked a lot about the review that goes into these complaints, how folks can file complaints, and what the PCR does after the investigation is complete, but would you mind talking a little bit from the internal affairs perspective? Um, briefly, because I know it's a very complicated and thorough process. >> Absolutely. >> What goes into those investigations? >> Absolutely. And um coordinator Cumberland, appreciate that and your slides do a very nice job of laying that all because it it is a complicated process. But at the end of the day um I've got two investigators assigned to me in the internal affairs unit. And when we receive a complaint, I go through accept that complaint and then our investigators, they get to work on those. What they do, they send out packets to our officers. They begin to get statements from the officers. They'll contact the complainant um gather additional essentially evidence. They'll look at body warn camera. They'll listen to um 911 calls if that's necessary. Um the ICC, it's the in camera for the uh the squad cars. They'll review it and put those together. >> Thank you, Commander. >> Sure. >> Uh Chief Henry, I I appreciated the encouragement for folks, community members to get involved because there is so much power in getting involved in using your voice and joining the table, right? But for you as chief of police, what do you see as the value of the PC arc? >> Well, I think there's a lot of value, but probably the easiest one is is that we all know you can't correct your own paper. I mean, at some point you, you know, if you do, you end up saying that cat spelled K A T and you give yourself 100%. You can't do that. If you want to be better, you you've got to look at your own uh practices. And I also just want to clarify something. there is a huge amount of complaints that are generated within the department. So on addition to all the work that his investigators are doing on complaints that are either submitted from the public either to us and then into PCR or from PCR back into us. Um we also have automated systems that are constantly checking things. They could be as simple as uh we will run every case number that we are assigned to and if you don't have a body camera footage to go accompany that, an automatic complaint gets generated and gets looked into. Sometimes that's dismissed um because we figure out that you never turned off your camera from the first call. You went to the second call, so you had 2 hours worth of video. Really, you should have turned it off and turned it back on, but you didn't. Uh so you didn't do really anything wrong, there's video, but sometimes there is no video. You forgot to turn it back on and those kinds of things. But any process that we can build um that holds us to the highest standard is a good thing. If that process can and does include our very community, cuz we're not the police department, we're your police department. And so you have to have a look at that stuff too. So you can say, "Hey, I've seen it for myself. There's a process. I may not be able to share with you what I saw because of, you know, uh, personnel data restrictions, but I can tell you the process is fair. They take this seriously. This isn't just something they do for show." And that's, I think, uh, some of the biggest power that's involved in that. >> Thank you, Chief. Um, I do have just a couple more questions, but I'm wondering if our production experts wouldn't mind putting the microphone towards the center of the room so that when we turn to audience questions, we've got that mic ready to go. Thank you, sir. Um, so BCR coordinators or commissioners, y'all get a lot of information. um after these super thorough investigations done by the internal affairs unit, there's a lot of data that is provided to you all each month and it is per month but it's also in the last two weeks per month. So it's a bit condensed. Um what factors go into the recommendations that you make when you make a recommendation about a case after reviewing all that data? Commissioner Featherstone. >> Uh, for me it's um policy and reasonleness. Would a a reasonable person understand this policy this way and behave this way? If those don't all line up, that's a huge flag for me. Um, I basically take the I look at the um procedures that they are to follow and I look at all of the evidence and read through everything and then I come up with my decision and go from there. And then I obviously listen to the other commissioners because I can um be persuaded to change my mind depending on what they may have seen that I may have missed. So, I always keep an open mind to um listen to the others to see if I maybe overlooked something in my review. I think for me it's um the at home preparation is finding the time to sit and review and focus on one case at a time and focus on the case material at hand. Right? We we look at cases one at a time. we don't take into account even if we may recognize names from previous cases we look at one incident at a time and then during the meetings um so as chair I facilitate those discussions and we always start our cases with a roundroin and that intention is so that every single member at the table gets to share what their initial thoughts are and the privilege of being chair is that I always go last in the round robin and I will say More often than not, I am swayed by members of the commission based on what their reasonings are. So, we we take our time, we do our research, but then we dialogue and it really is pretty robust conversations around that table. Um, and we really try to make sure everybody's voices do get heard throughout those deliberations. Value of diverse perspectives. Yeah, absolutely. Um, all right. If anyone has any questions for our panelists, I would encourage you to step up to the microphone. Um, but before I turn it over to that mic, I'd like to ask Chief Henry um a similar question. You also receive the internal affairs very thorough investigation. You received the PCR recommendation. Um, what is it like for you when you make those decisions? That's it's an awfully big job. What is that process like for you? Well, obviously as the per the only person that's allowed to issue discipline for the police department and that's for 750 employees. It doesn't the PCR is not involved in our professional staff employees, but at the end of the day, I have to issue that um that discipline. You know, I really I I'm a redemption person. So, I our goal is not to just meet out punishment, but it's to make a successful employee in the future. Sometimes that isn't possible. Sometimes the answer is we're going to terminate you. this is just too serious of a violation. Those types of things. But so I always try to think how do we make this serious enough and the consequence enough to be effective but also to repair the issue um as opposed to simply just punish it. And so I look at that and I have to balance it. One of the things I also have to look at that I get the privy of or the burden of however you want to look at it is um I know what past violations of that rule would be. So, for example, if you think about your kids, if your son stayed out till 2:00 in the morning and midnight was the curfew and you grounded him for a week and then your daughter did the same thing and you grounded her for a year, you you you can't do it that way. And so, we know that. And then the other thing that we always have to do in the police department is we have to balance that with the uh sometimes there's a legal consequence to something that we know that we simply couldn't be able to withstand that uh if that was a punishment that was just it was never going to uh survive a legal uh uh contest. I'm very proud of the fact I I think historically what people in my shoes have done is that they have kind of asked for 10 pounds because they want five. Um there is a grievance process. Uh I don't uh begrudge the union for pushing back on these things. That's their job, just like it would be the job of a defense attorney to stick up for their client. Um but I will tell you that I we rarely have issues and we have not we have not had a single uh discipline in our city since I've been the chief go to arbitration, meaning that it's gone to court and actually been over the discipline that I've issued has been overturned. That has not happened. Um, typically if the union rep comes in and says, "We're looking for a reduction on this." The answer is no. You know where I started. You know my opinion on this issue. And so I try to balance all those things, but I all overall the most important quality that I'm looking for is it needs to be fair and commiserate with what happened. >> Thank you. Commander Schwab, anything you'd like to add? >> Well, just so everyone knows, I'm two weeks into this new position. >> [laughter] >> That's right. >> If you couldn't tell. So, Commander Jacob, [clears throat] who's with us tonight, was here for uh the last two years. I've got very uh large shoes to fill, but uh I look forward to the opportunity. I have attended a couple of meetings. Um so, I've gotten my feet wet a little bit. I appreciate the partnership and uh what's happening here between the St. Paul Police Department and PCART and uh I'll continue to carry the torch. >> Can I add one thing to that? Of >> course. Um, historically, as I was coming up as an officer, a sergeant, and a commander, uh, the internal affairs commander job was kind of isolated out to a certain branch of the department that really wasn't operational to say, and then people had that job for a very long time. We have taken the opinion, myself and assistant chief Ford, that this is one of the most important assignments you can have as a commander. Uh, and so we want you to have that as a backbone to everything you do later on. you get an experience in as the internal affairs commander unlike any other commander position you'll have here and although that has caused us to have a probably a little quicker rotation uh Jeff will be the third uh commander in my three and a half years as chief of police uh for that unit but that's done intentionally because we want more people to truly understand how the discipline process is supposed to work and how important it really is and the more commanders we have that know that um we feel like we're going to be a better police Thank you, gentlemen. Commissioners, uh, we've heard from St. Paul Police about the partnership between PCR and our police department. Um, from your perspective, what is it like to work with law enforcement? What does that partnership look like from your perspective as a commissioner? For me, um, before I was on the PCR, I was somewhat involved with my local precinct, going to their monthly meetings, things like that. So, I I can't say I know a lot of police officers, but I recognize a lot of police officers, and every time I go on a ride along or I see one of them, they all thank me for what I'm doing, which is speaks a lot to the police department. I can speak a little bit about the uh partnership that the chair and the chief have through this process. So um we meet every other month to discuss commission um business trends that we're seeing um things that you know we might be seeing in cases that we we want to flag to say hey you might have a trend you might have something to take a look at. We also meet to talk about policy recommendations and also just a general kind of health check on how the department is doing, how the partnership is going. Um we talk quite often about training. Um so training topics that commissioners get once we're seated as well as the training that um potential commissioners have to go through and how that can work better and how it it is currently working. So I think a lot of partnership between the chair and the chief and we have a previous chair here as well who could also attest to that partnership of um regular meetings, regular discussions and and pretty open dialogue. >> In addition to Oh, sorry, Commissioner Featherstone. Go ahead. >> Um for me, the biggest part of the partnership is the level of communication that we have. Um, most cases I have a question or two and they're usually curveballs and off-the-walls and crazy, but they're generally gerine. I try to keep them gerane anyway. And they're incredibly good about saying either I can't answer that for legal reasons. >> They have an answer or I will find out and then they bring back an answer. And that is hugely huge points for them for me. >> Thank you. Um, we've talked about the sheer amount of work that you all do in service to our community every month. What do you see as the impact, the value in that work? How you continue to do it month after month for say four and a half years for example? Um, I got involved because I wanted to see a difference and I think um, looking at these cases and um, seeing sometimes um, you can see a difference I think sometimes of the different complaints sometimes and um I just I feel like I am doing something and therefore I it just my it's not enthusiasm but I just feel like I'm doing a a good service to the city and so therefore that's why I'm able to continue. I think for me um the thing that keeps me going is just knowing that the work that we do does have an impact. Um we have partnership with the department. They do listen to the recommendations. Um, we've seen some of the recommendations put into place around retraining. Um, some of the things that we've bubbled up have made it into roll call discussions at the beginnings of ships. So, it's a way for us to take our community lens and community perspective and similar to what the chief said, correct someone else's paper and and give a few, you know, nuggets of advice out of some of the things that we are evaluating. Okay, >> we have a question from the audience. on. >> Perfect. Okay. Hi. Uh, my name is Kong. I'm the executive director for United Mong family. So, uh, we work closely with the Mong community and also we work closely with police for our events as well. So, I'd like to hear from the panel how, you know, you guys would recommend best practices and systems for us to respond back to community member complaints along with public opinion. If I can first mention if somebody has a complaint about a St. Paul police officer, you can call me anytime and I will come to your organization to meet with that person and ensure that they have what they need, whether it's an accessible accommodation, whether it's language assistance, um to take that complaint. One, I just want to let you know that. Okay. And I'll turn to our panel. I think I was actually just about to say that uh coordinator Cumberland is one of the first calls that I would make to establish a partnership. As commissioners, we don't engage with complaintants outside of the complaint process just so that we preserve our um ability to be partial u or excuse me, impartial. [laughter] Wow. Um our ability to remain impartial through these proceedings. And so typically we will review case materials. Complainants will come in and give testimony. But outside of that, we don't interact with complaintants. So I would definitely recommend partnering with coordinator Cumberland. She is wonderful. I know that she is a resource to many community members to allow them to be able to know what their options are, whether it's filing a complaint or other um connections to community. Then I would just also remind everybody that you can make a any complaint any any time in real time. So I mean if you're out and you've dealt with something and you you're unsatisfied with what happened, call the the 911 or call the non-emergency number, tell them you want a supervisor to respond. They'll come out. The only caveat to that is of course if you get pulled over on a traffic stop or you're in the middle of an actual interaction, um kind of the old school rule is comply now, complain later. Um, what happens sometimes is people, I'm sure some of you may go dive down the YouTube drain on these things where you see these interactions go bad. Um, if you feel like something is inappropriate, you can ask for a supervisor. We will send somebody out. But obviously, if there officers are in the middle of dealing with a volatile situation, sometimes that's not going to be the time that someone's going to stop there and just actually hear your complaint. But we want to hear it. We will take it. Uh, you don't need to call the chief, although you can call me. Um but you can make a complaint through any avenue in the department and we will get it delivered to where it needs to be. >> All right. So how would you recommend us to respond to the community just because we do work closely with them and like to stay as a neutral party while advocating for them about a specific incident about a more generic theme. more generic. >> Our generic theme is I can say without knowing more specifics and we can't talk specific cases either, but know that I'm here to work with you. Know that Commander Schwab and Chief Henry are here to work with you. If there's a concern, um let's sit down as community together and see what we can do to figure it out. >> Yeah. And if if you have an issue, if there's an issue the council wants to address, let's let's be honest. If if there were it may not even be something that there's a complaint behind. It may just be something that people are concerned or confused about or just need more information about. We can help with that. If indeed there is a complaint already in existence, we can give you the information that will help at least answer the questions that we're aware of it. We're working on it. We may not be able to speak about the specific outcomes of that case until it's resolved, but we can deal with that, too. So, reach out to the police department. have a conversation with either your local district chief or reach out to the office of the chief or reach out to internal affairs. We will figure out what the actual issue is uh and then figure out where it is. And one of the slides earlier pointed something out. There was this huge number of these complaints and I really applaud the the notion that um it's kind of like the St. Paul chapter or the NAACP. They get calls from all over the state because most cities don't have their own chapter and St. Paul is the capital so they take them all. Well, same is true with the PCR. Their their access is so open and e user friendly, they get complaints. If you bring a situation to us of concern and we figure out, well, actually, you were north of Larpender and that was Maplewood or Roseville, we will help you connect with that agency to make sure that you're getting uh the connection that you need. So, it won't be like we're like that's not us and we hang the phone up. That's that's not what we do. So, um, we will always try to get you plugged in with the right resource, uh, and to make sure that you're getting the information so you can advocate or communicate or or, uh, do whatever you need to do with whatever group you're dealing with. >> Yeah. Everybody in the front of this room is an advocate for continuous improvement, for always being willing to do better. But we can't advocate for change, for moving forward, for advancing things unless we know about it. So, let's talk. Um, Commissioner, would you mind uh asking your question into the mic just to ensure that everybody can hear you well? [clears throat and cough] Thank you. >> I do like a microphone sometimes. So, good evening. My name is Crystal Bogbana. I am a Westside resident and I'm also the chair of the city's Human Rights and Equal Economic Opportunity Commission. Um, and I'm just curious about the chart on page 12. And perhaps chief, you've already provided some additional context that I think is helpful, but I'm just curious with the PCR's work on these cases and how it goes through the process. Is it could it be the case that because the police department also has its own internal review that some of these cases represented would have gone through that process like how you were kind of explaining that there are checks that you do in addition to maybe what the PCR is doing. I'm just curious because I I'm not sure I'm following that. And then I would also love to know and perhaps this also was said in the case that there isn't a um discipline that's enacted for that person, what kind of resolution do they get? Thank you. >> So, yeah, there's a there's a number of things that happen when those go through. And so, um I'm trying to think of a good way to explain this. So, as those those come through and we have a discussion about what's going to happen, whether it's going to go up or down. Sometimes they go up, sometimes they go down. Uh, they're much more likely to go down than go up, but they do sometimes go up where the offense is here and I say it's up here or the consequence is up here. Um, what I think is kind of at the at the the root of what you're you're asking is is that anytime we take a look at an issue and we look at a lot of them, either electronically through technology, through our auditing systems, or whether a complaint is made, which is kind of the old-fashioned way you make a complaint. Um, obviously the U of M study in 2015 did a very robust uh refresh of what we do and then later that year in the beginning of 2016, we rolled out our body camera program. So the internal affairs process completely change. I mean there really if you're thinking about intern changes in internal affairs uh you have pre and post body camera. They're just that's really that's like the the telephone or the light switch or whatever you want to call it. Um when a complaint comes in like that. So let's say there was a complaint saying uh Axel Henry came to my call and wouldn't take a police report from me and that complaint gets reviewed and we look at the body camera and it that didn't happen. I actually took the report and we have the copy of the report and the person just was angry at me for some reason. But on the way to the call, I drove 80 miles an hour down Rice Street in its current condition. The complainant doesn't know how I got there, but we're looking at this call. So, we're going to look at all the elements of that call. So, as complaints come in, um, there is always going to be a chance that we as the department are going to see something else in there that the complaint either didn't recognize, hear, understand, or didn't even realize was an issue, didn't realize that there was a procedure that's supposed to be followed in that situation. We don't expect our community to know every procedure there. They're not perfect. So, they may complain about issue A, and we all may say, "Well, issue A actually didn't happen in this case, but issue B is a is a issue that's here." Um, and so that piece happens and as we go through all of these allegations, we figure out what we have to do. I know that chart seems to me I you I think you might be surprised to hear that. I think that's actually super small. Well, it is because there's literally 64 officers or whatever that they dealt with and that's just the cases they see. I think ours and John, you might be able to to answer this question. the internal ones that we because there's only certain categories of cases unless I make an exception that go to PCR. Uh if they're internally generated um and what what would you say the number is >> internally >> for 2025? So I would say that number is probably near 100. >> Okay. >> And to repeat for the recording, Commander John K. Jacob stated that for 2025 it's about 100. You asked the first part of that question which I can't remember what it was and so I feel like I didn't answer it. >> Okay. I I did get it though. And also >> I'd like to just add to so in that scenario, right, the community member made their complaint about allegation A. They will not be notified that there was additional discipline for allegation B. So the communication that they get back around their complaint really is your allegation was unfounded or not sustained. It is not, hey, thank you for bringing this complaint up. We also found X, Y, and Z. So, you know, from a I think there's some legal reasons that we can't do that, but it really would be great to be able to close that loop and be more transparent about gosh, you bubbled this up and here's what the the policy actually is, but we also saw this and we corrected behavior. I just the the laws don't let us do that. >> Yes. Minnesota's data practices laws and also recognizing that these are also employee laws, public employee data. Um, as much as we may want to share information, there are a lot of laws that guide this process as well. >> Yeah, that's the kind of the unique sticky wicket here is which is that you typically don't see an inter civilian internal uh oversight group, however you want to call it, for anything other than law enforcement. So there's this there's this kind of unintentional consequence that we think all these protections are in place because we're the police that most of the the rules that guide the ability to communicate information about discipline are all covered under employee law. So they they actually cover all of you as well. In fact, you've recently in our city, we've seen that that's come out uh a couple years ago where people were discussing and they had nothing to do with law enforcement and the people got in a lot of trouble for it because you know that is protected information. So, I just want to be clear about that that those employee practices personnel data uh isn't a police thing. That's a that that's a general employee thing. >> Thank you. >> Hi everybody. Um nice to see you all again. I'm Sarah Florman. I'm the former PCR chair for 2025. I just wanted to um kind of take a moment to to get some clarification on the data. Uh particularly we're talking about those departures. So that is 1 2 3 I think 14 if I'm counting correctly. 14 departures. That is 14 departures out of 19 sustained complaints. That is not 14 out of 100. That's 14 out of 19 where there was a departure. And I think there's a lot of reasons for that that make a lot of sense. What I would like um from you, Chief Henry, is to maybe provide some of that clarification for particularly situations where there appears to be a pretty significant difference between, you know, it's not just that the the discipline was lowered, but something was sustained and then seen as unfounded. What are some of the kind of situations where that might come up or do you have any thoughts? You know, I could speak to my opinion on that, but I'm not on the commission right now. So, just kind of how that that difference happens. >> And of course, recognizing that we aren't able to discuss specific cases in this scenario. Thank you. >> Yep. So, um sometimes in the case that I described, let's say that instead of me speeding to the call at 80 mph, I did something else at the scene. Uh the complaintant says that I did thing A and they have a huge problem with that. uh that gets reviewed and looked at and the PCR or commissioners might look at the overall body of what has happened and they say we have a problem with this too and we want this to happen. Well, the evidence shows that the complaint that the the person made was just this small part of the overall bigger picture and I have to focus on that by state statute. Just like if you were go into criminal law, um the peace officer's bill of rights basically says, and they talked about this early in the presentation, um if you want to make a complaint, it has to be assigned complaint that you say specifically what it is that happened. So that and the reason for that is before this complaint is fully investigated, the employee themselves is going to be asked, can you explain to us why you did that? And that's also another factor that I weigh heavily, which is if let's say it's clear they did something wrong and they say, well, I don't know what to tell you. then I'm a little less forgiving. But if they say, "Hey, I was having a terrible day. I look back on that. I'm embarrassed by my behavior. That's not the person I want to be, and I take full ownership for it." I might be inclined to maybe say that there might be a potential you you're still going to have a sustained complaint, but maybe a written might be an oral instead. Those types of things. So sometimes these things get aggregated together and I have to separate them apart. But that's why that other process is so important and that's a conversation that we've had before. So if I do a departure, I am required within 5 days to write a letter to the PCR and we meet to have a discussion. So the letter says in writing what my rationale was, but then we also verbally have a conversation and the the reason why it happened so quickly is if there were something that were brought forward from the PCR side of it that I said, well, I didn't realize that I didn't know that part of it that the train hasn't gone too far down the track in my departure process. So there it's not just a they come in to me, I make my decision behind closed doors and then you know we just spit it back out. It does not work that way. >> And I'll maybe add some some clarification about what that process actually looks like. So when we get our cases from internal affairs, they go through the the complaints and they pull out the questions that we deliberate. So internal affairs will craft those individual questions. There could be one question related to a case and an allegation. There could be 10 allegations and those are determined through a process that internal affairs undergoes. That's what we deliberate. So we are not allowed to mention any other violations that we see or um take those into account in evaluating those questions. So over the last couple of years, we've had really robust partnership with internal affairs and discussions about how those questions are formulated. Are they meeting the the needs of that complainant? are we giving opportunities for community to kind of reassess like okay I told you this but you're asking a question about this and I think that's still part of the process that we can improve on to better understand what community members complaints are so that you know potentially we see fewer of these departures and our community members feel more fulfilled by this overall process and I'll also defer if anyone else wants to add All right, thanks everybody. Um, as we are nearing the Oh, is there one more question? Excellent. >> Thank you, Mike. >> Yeah, I guess. Hi, I'm Carrie Sheldon. I am uh one of the members of the mayor's advisory committee for people with disabilities and um my qu my question is I've got a couple questions actually but how much time does do you as a group get together and and discuss things and do you is there any uh thing that any individual work that has homework that has to be Oh yes. >> So um like Sierra had sorry coordinator Cumberland had stated earlier we only get the cases 2 weeks before our monthly meeting and we have to um look at all of the cases prior to that meeting. And I believe it was last month there was like almost 30 hours of body worn camera footage alone on top of all the other um um review. So it can be quite cumbersome to look at everything. Um so you have to prioritize um those last two weeks to get everything done. As far as meeting, we cannot meet together outside of the meeting because that would be considered quorum. So that's not allowed. So we can only meet together as a group one for each monthly meeting. >> Thank you. You guys want to add anything? >> Um in terms of the the level of homework, there's um please feel free to step in if I'm crossing lines. We get roughly six cases a month to that we're examining in this two weeks. And each of those can have like a hundred pages of documents attached to >> I think the record was 444 something like that >> buckets >> for one case. >> Um so and we've got to look at all that. We've got to take notes on all that. We've got to cross reference that with the the policies that are in the manual. We've got the 30 hours of uh body warn to look at and compare to policy. And we've got to note all that down. So when it is when it does come to make our determinations, we can not only say this is wrong, but here's how. And that's why we're really trying to, you know, focus on the the the really uh exacting unarguable things. >> Thank you. >> Not a light commitment, but it is an important one. >> But let me stress, it's interesting and important work, and don't let that scare you away. And I want to add one more thing about the scope of the work and that is actually to recognize coordinator Cumberland. She is [applause] she is truly the glue that holds this process together. You will find her at community events. You will find her at PCR meetings. You will find her doing intakes with community members about really raw emotional things. She's a onewoman show and she really holds this process together. So, if I could just another round for her. [applause] Thank you. I'm just glad to be part of the team. [snorts] And now back to you all. Um, thank you. As we're closing out our panel here, um, I would like just a few of our panelists, what is something you wish folks knew about the PCR? What is something you wish folks understood that perhaps we haven't had a chance to cover yet? Um, I would say that I think all of us on the commission are vastly different from each other and that it's okay that we disagree. I think we all disagree all the time and it's completely okay. I mean, if you would hear some of the votes, it's quite funny. Um, but we're all we're all steadfast in our decisions sometimes, but we can be swayed and we um we're all okay saying no, I don't agree. want to go. [clears throat] >> Uh, for me it's probably the attention to to detail. >> Um, um, different things in the process jump out at different people. When when a door was opened, when a car moved, all these different things. Was it before or after something was said? these these little things that can chain that can that form the chain of events that if you look at slightly differently from a different person's perspective, the chain can flip back and forth and we've got to come to an agreement on what actually that is. It's it's really really collaborative. Chief Henry. >> Well, I can't say this myself, but since Mike already said it, I'm going to par it, which is I I really want the community to know that the officers do not resent this process. they actually appreciate it. Like he said, they I'm not surprised to hear at all that his experience has been that they when they learn he's why he's there, what he's doing, um and he's a part of the PC arc that they thank him for his service for doing that because again, I think there's a Hollywood cliche that the two entities dislike each other and that just isn't the case. >> And we see a lot of really rough stuff. I mean, there's no no getting around that. There are videos that stay with us, but there are also videos where you see the flip side and you see the humanity and the kindness that's present in our officers. And those are the moments that, you know, you got to hold on to as you're doing this work. But, um, I'm still really proud of our department. And I think that we have um really dedicated officers and and within all of the body cam we review that's not so good to see some of the really human parts that are good. That is what is, you know, something that keeps me going as a commissioner. >> All right, I'd like to invite Vice Chair Forstrom to come on up and to close us out. Thank you. I'll make this short and sweet. Um, so as we wrap up tonight's PCR annual summit, I want to begin um with a sincere thank you to each and every one of you for being here tonight. Um, for showing up and participating in this important conversation. Um, to our u my fellow commissioners, thank you for your dedication and your countless volunteer hours and your commitment to the thoughtful civilian oversight and accountability. Um, as we've said before, the work of the PCR matters because of the people willing to ask the hard questions and um, listen carefully and remain committed to improving trust between the police and the community um, that they serve. Um to Mayor Her, Assistant Mayor Cedric Baker, Chief Henry, um Commander Ka Jacob, and um Commander Schwab, the leader um city leadership staff, and Sierra Cover um Command or gosh, I'm now I'm going to get this all mixed up. Coordinator Sierra Coverland, community partners, thank you for your partnership, your um openness, and sharing your perspectives this evening. Your willingness to engage in dialogue helps strengthen our shared vision for community centered public and safety. To everyone tonight who has joined us, um, community members, guests, colleagues, and supporters, thank you for taking time to be part of this summit. I know it's beautiful out tonight, so we really appreciate it. Your presence, your presence matters. Public trust and transparency and accountability are the strongest when communities are engaged and voices are heard. Tonight, we reflected on the progress learned more about the work of the PCR and had meaningful conversations about where to go from here. While there is always more work to do, evenings like this remind us that progress happens through partnership, listening, and a shared commitment to continuous improvement. On behalf of the PCR, thank you again for coming and joining on the conversation in participating in the annual summit. We appreciate your support and engagement and your commitment to helping building a stronger, safer St. Paul for everyone. Have a wonderful evening. Safe travels home and please continue the conversation with us. And um please um click on the QR code with your little phone and please take um coordinator Cumberland's um survey. She would get mad if I didn't say that. Or it can be at the table. Um there's another QR code. And again, we do have two openings. So, if you um are interested in becoming a PCR um member, please reach out to Sierra or ask any one of us that are currently on the commission and we can answer any of your questions. So, again, thank you and have a great night. [applause]