well and then of course it's funny like the the year after I finished school then there was there were guidelines that came out that when symptoms of a heart attack were completely different than I'm like you're being sexist me tell them come no that that wasn't me so I wanted to go back to that professor and say okay Emma do you see this right so I was like okay I you know I didn't have to have to say anything I bet he was like that night the golden through the day okay you guys this meeting is being recorded for quality of training all right I call this meeting of the St PA recovery at Community reparations commission to order Veronica will take the roll call in uh we have edmon here this is her first time being here so uh okay taking the roll call uh chair Cruz here Vice chair Kalia Pringle here SE blor yes here Jeremy English here Mila golden here edmon here Nick khik okay R Nick Muhammed Jan here Carlo Robinson B see if we have a quum here we have seven so we have a Corum okay then um um chair I would like to um first have idman IIM um introduce herself since this is the first reparations commission meeting she's been at and as other Commissioners did at our first meeting um can you just take a moment and tell us a little bit about yourself um and share why you're interested in the subject matter of reparations and what you hold commission will accomplish thank you um my name is edman um I'm glad to be here sorry I missed the first two meetings um I'm a student at Min um I attend the University Minnesota excuse me so I graduated this made umot State University ofo and currently I'm a graduate student at the University of Minnesota um I was interested in this um commissioner because I want to get involved in community advocacy and I wanted to see change in um because there are so much need in the community and um I hope we accomplish everything that we are trying to advocate for thank you thank you Veronica and edmont commissioner nro golden will now be the laborate we acknowledge that much of America including its culture economic growth and and development has been possible has been made possible by the forced Free Labor of enslaved Africans and their descendants who suffered the horror of the transatlantic slave trade Catt slavery Jim Crow segregation and acts of racism all culminating into modern-day disparities we pay homage to these ancestors and ask that they guide the efforts of the reparations commissions to correct these wrongs for those who are living and for those who are yet born thank you commissioner go the next item of business is we will review the reparations legislative advisory committee cion report here I'll provide some context of what led up to the St Paul cover act reparations commission okay let me switch over to that presentation do this way I forget how to do the SL show okay oh do you here okay and yeah there we go and then yeah the keyboard on January 3 2021 the St Paul city council pass resolution 2177 that apologize for holding Dr Scott military slavery at apologize for the destruction of the Ral Community VI of the I94 freeway and apologize in St Paul's role in practicing institutional racism against this black residents it also set up a limited term legislative advisory committee that created the sa PA recovery at permanent reparations commission ordinance so the companion report basically gives us some of the thinking about how the decisions were made about uh the ordinance this is kind of like the thinking behind why we made some of the decisions that we made just say next when you want me to hit next um the legislative advisory committee we uh adopted some guiding principles and those guiding principles were the United Nations principles or reparations and those principles those guiding principles are cessations or guarantees of non-repetition um restitution compensation Rehabilitation and satisfaction um we can go to next staff and budget the legislative advisory committee notes that work on the budgeting for the staffing in the commission should be initiated soon ideally as part of the city's 2023 budget process and happen in conjunction with mayor and Council consideration of the proposed language but that was in 2023 now we're in 2024 so we're trying to speak things along we can go that the meetings and some of this stuff we're already doing and we're uh moving at a really good uh Pace explicity State meetings are to be open to the public strongly considered providing standing agenda item each month providing an opportunity for public input establish a public notification time period in advance of meetings such as seven to 10 days so we're do I think we're doing a good job from that we can go next of powers and duties the development of policies plans and programs and their evaluation require partnership between relevant City departments in the commission the mayor and the city council should set the for this ongoing relationship and at our first meetings our first couple meetings you seen the president of the city C you uh and we see shenik pres hey real fast uh real fast chair we uh let me just finish real quick there's any question yeah uh next compensation of legisl advisory committee unequivocally unequivocally recommends compensation be provided for commission members to offset expenses such as parking Child Care time away from work and curve related to the work of the commission and this is a reparations commission our ancestors have worked for fre for 280 years and we don't want to continue to perpetuate uh that uh next slide Community commentary so we had um virtual sessions with the East Side Freedom library and those were April 7th and April 29th 2022 with an estimated participation of approximately 125 to 150 individuals at the two events and then we had two iners sessions held at D Bluff and this is coming right up uh covid-19 to uh iners sessions held at Dayton's Bluff recreation center April 14th at Rondo Library April 21st 2022 with an estimated participation of more than 50 individuals at the two events and we go to the next SL a listening session feedback a lot the feedback that we got from the listening sessions was really good uh and some of the highlights of that was the composition of the commission the um the the people who participated wanted the commission to be people whose ancestors descend from us Cheng slavery people who have lived experience economists activists uh people who have been impacted by by the racial wealth Gap historians um labor so just a diverse group of people and people who do understand the reparations issue and who are involved in community like yourselves uh the importance of gen genealogical research uh finding out where we come from Key recipients of reparations work in St Paul who's going to uh be the recipient of the nature of reparations we want ongoing education about the reparations issue ongoing Community participation and input and then General cop we established the relationship with the St Paul Public Library to create a comprehensive resource list for those who want the further educate themselves on the reparations issue and so I think we can also continue that relationship and think about how how best to use that thank other any questions yes just one um I kind of just wanted to uh go through those powers and duties just emphasizing um that is kind of the broad base of why we're here and just could you kind of uh elaborate on on that the powers and duties statement the uh powers and the duties are for us to make short-term medium and long-term recommendations to the mayor and the City Council on how to address of the racial wealth act in the city of St Paul in um addressing its Legacy of discrimination or how it harmed black people so those are uh a big part of the PO for commission and as a point of information um you know just look through your notebook it you know it has the ordinance in there so again just read through that ordinance get yourself very familiarized with it that pretty much gives the scope of you know the powers and duties and our overall and I guess Mission and the companion report is in there too um our next order of business is the adoption of the 2024 meeting schedule will you please present the schedule and describe what's left to deci side okay let's see how do I get out of this okay so now looking at um your uh sheet here that looks at every fourth Wednesday so again you know when I surveyed everybody it looked like you know more more said like the fourth Wednesday and as I called others to see if that would work you know look like the fourth Wednesday of the month worked um and 6:00 p.m. you know till about 7:30 um 8 o'clock um it's kind of generally but again we only publish our STD time um but that's kind of the general I guess range and at least for today I did find this location and they were also available for the rest of the year um I contacted uh the Rondo Library they weren't a for this day and they only allow you to kind of reserve the room I think about like two months in advance um and I also checked the Jimmy Lee rex Center um they just didn't have the technology you know that we needed um and where else did I check um I tried to get to like Metro State library library I know they have a really nice space but it was kind of hard to get in through to them and um and then I think one other space I had looked at I can't remember but then I kind of Came Upon This location and they said you could book for the entire year out they had this day available I checked out the other you know fourth Wednesdays of the month and this was available so again you know this is up for discussion you know we can at least you know kind of all this if you you don't want me to keep searching around um you know I'm fine with doing that but at least we have something that's you know reserved is there any discussion I think there should be um in regards to in regards to the days it's good that we establish the days so the dates are kind of set in tone which is very you know which is good cu now we at least understand what dates we're going to beet on and times um I do kind of feel like um there there should be some questions about where we meet at um especially understanding um the commission that we are and um um what we're planning on doing as a commission so um I think we all should uh definitely take a look at you know the availability uh especially of you know when it comes down to locations that um do have you know American descendants of CH slavery you know we definitely want to make sure that we are visible for that too as well um I think um this is a very convenient place to meet you know which is very good but um we definitely need to uh uh be visible to the people that we're serving So based on that um what what suggestions do you have and again I like this area again it is it is nonwhite per se um and there is bus line and all of that I think about that from time to time so if the public are coming as well as parking here I agree with you as far as being located in a space that is uh visible and we'll get the community talking and knowing that we are about the business of the community and trying to make some changes and recommendations that will have an impact um do you have a suggestion as far as the location um have you checked out the the ha C Brown Center um I tried to get in touch with haly q but I wasn't successful but you know that could be another place that I can kind of continue to follow up with yes um and uh there are uh again you know there like d love Recreation Center um you know the east side of St Paul definitely the library I think it's um p in Maryland Pon Arlington up there that was the other one I did check they I know they have the tech yeah yeah they do and they have a really nice space that I know I don't know about the availability they got the space they got the yeah that was the other location and and they were booked almost throughout the whole year not surprised and I know that Arlington Library uh right there on pain in Maryland that's what talking yeah um that is that the one you gu you were talking about yeah um isn't there another library right there um I want to say um the Eide Library Eide Freedom yes the I think kind of around the corner up the block y okay and free yeah okay I ask that yeah well would be it would be within their mission it would be the kind of thing that's their mission okay yeah I don't know about the money but it's their mission yeah I just wanted to say yes I think that um one consideration we might give and we can certainly say we've got a a general meeting place I think we're allowed to do some special meetings as well so it's not like this is the scope of the meetings that we'll hold but I was thinking that um two things one if we are making proposals to the city council the city council there's several Wards and and it might be in our interest to look at having a meeting in each of the wards of the city so that we can say we have um held meetings in each Ward and therefore given residents of each Ward an opportunity to weigh in hear what's happening and understand what this commission is trying to achieve and the second thing is that in my mind it it really would behoove the commission and the goal to actually hold meetings in as many black businesses as we can and I don't and and I recognize that that's challenging in terms of saying they don't have the technology to record these because we have to make sure that the record of these meetings is available to the public uh but never less uh it seems to me that if we're not looking at black churches if we're not looking at black businesses in general we're missing an opportunity to share this information and the deliberations uh with the folks we're supposed to be essentially focused on so that's just a couple of suggestions as we think about uh meeting places Mr Kik um are there any more thoughts comments I just like to say that um we have regular meetings but then like again we had those hearings too so those were like special meetings and they were just dedicated to us listening to the community too so those will definitely be um need to be in places like church buiness but I think this is good for now C you one and if we want to keep looking we can we can keep looking but any more thoughts so can we so um is there a a motion to adopt the meeting schedule I shall move a second all in favor I one second can I ask question sure I'm sorry I I forgot to also add the only conflict we had of the fourth Wednesday was uh uh one holiday Christmas so you know it may help me as I still kind of look around for other locations would you want to uh still meet that Christmas week and maybe instead meet Christmas is the 25th meet Monday at 6 or after Christmas Thursday so that's the only other you know point that we gota you know I really need some direction on can you send around the P to poll everybody and see where we are that's a tough time of year yeah and people um but if we just got a sense of what everybody's schedule feels like we might be able to find the okay so you want me to pull that December meeting yeah okay if the schedule passes okay thank you and so our next uh agenda item is adoption of Robert R as inter bylaws as we uh just flush out our bylaw um our next order of business is adop Robert Jes as income bylaw until we have officially adopted a permanent set of bylaws and the materials email to you you were cheat sheets we can use to help guide our decision making until that point as a point of information of Veronica fulia and I met with um the city clerk reviews and highlight highlights and so uh Veronica is going to go over what we discussed okay um thank you Mr chair I do believe that you know maybe one of our first or second meetings people were talking about you know as we're we're kind of fumbling through Robert's Rules or whatever if there's a cheat sheet some cheat sheets out there so the city clerk um you know presented both kulia myself and Tran um with some cheat sheets I found another one too I thought kind of gave a nice little you know glimpse of how to do motions and all of all of that jazz but I wanted to at least maybe touch on this particular cheat sheet because I think it summarizes everything and that way we can all be on the same page along with the you know the orientation that both Kia and trahern got so um again as we kind of work through Robert's Rules you know I guess you can maybe even say Robert rules light um not like we're experts or anything but just to get us going uh Robert rules is the essentially parliamentary procedure conducting orderly meetings that accomplish goals fairly um benefits of those meetings include Justice and courtesy for all consideration of one item at a time you know so let's be sure that that we kind of stay on that all sides get heard so if you're forign an issue or gets the issue or position let's just kind of hear both perspectives ability for each member to provide input so if you so feel you want to provide your input you know maybe you're really quiet person U maybe you're a boisterous person but you know you have something you want to say please um put it on the table um this parliamentary is you know essentially majority rule um it's a protection of All rights of members including those who are in um the minority it's basic principles a quorum must be present for any business to be conducted all members have equal rights of Privileges and obligations no person shall speak until recognized by the chair so we finally elected our chair and um we have to all go through the chair to get permission uh to speak and there are some exceptions if you look through that particular cheat sheet only one question at a time may be considered and only one person may have the floor at one time I know sometimes it could get hard to kind of follow the discussion because everyone wants to get their their point on the table but if we can um just kind of C keep the table clear and just um present one item um at a time uh full and free discussion of every main motion is a basic right so you know we could chew on something for as long as we want or as little as we want um a majority decides a question except when basic rights of members are involved or a rule provides otherwise so um as we continue down accepting of our bylaws sometimes our bylaws may have some exceptional rules that might be particular to what we want to do and see and so that's when we can bear from Roberts rules or maybe some other kind of set of standardized rules we want to use uh silence gives consent so if you're not speaking up you know those that are raising their voices put putting in their vote that's um County the chair should always remain impartial so again try to balance you know the the voices of everyone whether they're for an issue or against um some basic definitions motion is a formal proposal made to bring a subject before an assembly for its consideration or an action and it begins by saying I move that um second a statement for a member who agrees that the motion made by another member be considered stated as I second or I second the motion uh Amendment before the vote is taken on a motion it may be amended by striking out words and inserting or adding words striking out words or inserting others in their place substituting a paragraph or resolution for another presiding officer of the chair the individual who facilitates the meet meeting as in our case the chair um and in absence of the chair would be the vice chair and if neither present the secretary uh which we don't have but um you know we can even elect at that point of someone to play that role um role of presiding officer to introduce business in a proper order per the agenda so follow the agenda um recognize the speakers um determine if a motion is in order keep the discussion focused on the pending motion you know so sometimes we may want to interject a whole another topic that's someone else somewhere else on the agenda or may not be on the agenda at all but um you know our job here to run an orderly meeting is to keep the discussion on that motion um and maintain order you know this is a this is a public form a public setting it's being recorded so even community members or whomever else um can go into our recording and see our minutes and um our meeting recordings so um you know May maintaining order is very significant um whether it's public or not you know it's just it's just good policy and and good the Quorum um to keep discussions let me see where am I to put motions to a vote and announce the results so when we're putting motions to to a vote we want to publicly announce those results um General procedures for handling a motion a member must obtain the floor um by being recognized by the chair a member makes a main motion a motion must be second by another member before it can be considered if the motion is in order the chair will restate the motion and open debate the maker of the motion has the right to speak first um in the debate the main motion is debated along with any secondary motions that are debatable um debate on subsidiary privilege and in cental motions if debatable or amendable take precedence over debate over the main motion and must be decided before debate on the main motion can can continue uh debate is closed when discussion has ended or two3 vote closes that debate the chair restates the motion and if necessary clarifies the consequences of an affirmative or negative vote the chair calls for a vote by asking all in favor those in favor say I then asking all opposed those who are opposed say no the chair announces the results uh general rules of debate um for small boards or groups such as ourself all discussion must be relevant to the again the pending question no member should speak more than twice to each debatable motion the second time takes place after everyone wishes to debate the motion has had the opportunity to speak once so go around once and after that has happened you want to speak again um then you know that would be afterwards no member should speak more than twice to each debatable motion did I read that one I read that okay all remarks should be addressed to the chair no cross debate is permitted debate must address issues and not personalities you know I know sometimes it could get heated and you know you want somebody to think exactly like you and but let's try to stick to the issue itself because sometimes we just got different perspectives we just didn't see someone else's point of view and it it may take take some time to get there if you even get there um when where am I when possible the chair should let the floor alternate between those speaking in support and those speaking in opposition to the motion members um may not disrupt the assembly or the body um rules of debate can be changed by two-thirds vote of General consent without objection you know there was some discussion and maybe I missed part of it about U the corn and did we ever come up with a number based on the number of members that we have for seven we we have uh a body of 11 and a COR is half plus one so that would be seven yeah okay can't be six and a half so guess sorry or five happen yeah so so do you round it up to seven yeah that's what I feel feels like we can decide that 50% plus one right uh half plus one so what's half oh yeah because this an odd number five and a half what is 6 and half you round up to seven you said it before I think okay yeah okay all right so then okay yeah can we add that to yeah yeah we can add that we can probably add that directly into the bylaws as we can go through that just so that it's clear but when we get to that point um any more discussion you're looking for a m i this I I don't know if this is a point of order information or whatever but we're just doing this to have something that we can run with so we can continue our business for this meeting so when the Rules of Order question comes up when we're actually looking at the bylaws that could be another discussion right that's all thank you is there a motion to second is there a motion in second to adop Robert's Rules of Order until the commission bylaws are established I Mo that we second she got just I move that we second the moment we adopt the R's rules border and I second all in favor I okay so this um our next uh discussion we're going to talk about our permanent bylaws and you guys should all have a copy and I think we're going to review the ones that Ray uh worked from we'll go through them section by section okay let me find that oh for okay [Music] oh and then before the final adoption of the bylaws we'll have the uh City attorney review what R the Bible adoped so we're going to start with um section one and uh take please take us a look at those and then uh we'll see if anybody wants to make sure any change this up for take that and that's under section one the name of this commission other uh any changes or discussion and then take the uh look at section two and uh that's going to deal with the purpose and just want to make a statement if I could um sections one two and three came directly out of the ordinates so that I I don't believe there's a change in in the language but please check that but that's just so you know where that's where it's from so that's not something I created I just copied it from the ordinance to here okay are we just looking for questions or comments questions comments so's a here's a question um having very recently looked at the Evanston Asheville and state of California um efforts in this direction my question is because if I'm reading this correctly this is generational wealth which is great but I you know memory and don't shoot me if I didn't remember this rightly because I don't trust my own memory that much either but there are there could be other concerns besides generational wealth and I'm going to give uh health and I'm going to give education as two I think I might be able to pull as many as five out of my head from memory but I'm just really asking the question and I'm taking too longine to say this are we going to just limit this to generational wealth and it is just a question for me just a question no oh go ahead I was just gonna say so I see the things that you've mentioned um in the purpose component um where powers and Duties [Music] are kind of the actions that we would work on that would help to manifest or to impact um health and home ownership and and education okay sorts of things that's how I that's how I interpret it because it is listed as far as the purpose and so that is stated prior to anything else so that's mine second what M just said second she just said because that's exactly um that's exactly what the purpose looks like you know uh any any more comments discussion so um we can take a vote on sections one through four well section four we didn't yeah I got a question on section three oh section three yeah but is everyone up with one and two even that the same there's consensus on that three too I kind of want to hear what you have to say about three because it may impact as far as okay all because I see two and three going together gotcha so that's what I'm waiting for okay well my only question m here is um I think too in the ordinance it is a bit more descriptive I do believe with the powers and duties and I didn't know Rey as you were putting this together if you wanted to include all the other powers and duy so if you look at the St Paul Recovery Act reparations commission ordinance that's in your packet or or in your notebook so if you didn't if you don't have have your notebook with you um let me see I know if I can pull that up real quick but it has in there powers and duties powers and duties it lists it has a through F and it look like you just kind of had a so shall establish a work plan is B shall developed time-based evaluations of City expenditures to c d review and advise the city and all the way down through e so I just wanted to know you know if we should include all of that into the bylaw or what you have Sur fice yeah I I think you can include um all of it um the reason I did this is because when we had the agenda set it said let's talk about bylaws and we didn't have anything to look and so I wanted this graph in front of us so we wouldn't you know just be talking with nothing to refer to and so now that we look at this I think that's the purpose of this conversation is to take from there whatever you think needs to be in here and I'm not opposed to putting the entire set of things in here I just wanted us to have you know kind of a starting point something on paper to look at so I would oh I can't I forgot I can't make a motion okay so so can I make can I make a motion that we uh take the powers and duties um that we have in section three and what we do is we more um what the ordinance powers and Duties are into section three to make sure that we establish those as our powers and duties that would that would be 11 120525 yep but I have them right here though I just I don't have a number for it though I just have the list of when you talk please say St and then we'll just we'll use that as the order that we'll speak so I second the motion that commissioner English brought to bring in the ordinance language from the powers of Duty the legislative advisory Council into our um draft uh bylaws is there a second oh not okay any discussion all in favor I okay the motion passes it's all it's and then do we want okay so then we'll look at section three four section four we all agreed on Section just all right we'll look at section four we have to change the location or such place so U we'll have to check like K Kia said we'll have to change the location that's written in here to like Elio yeah um no again because you guys are sending me back to the drawing board to kind of you know still broaden scope and look at other locations you know black churches businesses um some other locations uh and present those to the group um so in terms of a consistent meeting location that's just unknown at this point but I do believe earlier Ray was saying that at least we kind of have a kind of a standard location but no I just say what we voted on earlier I'm sorry um all I was going to say is that I'm wondering if it's possible for us to uh insert in here that we would have a um meeting place that represents the community out in the community and when not available we would meet at 300 City Hall Annex and and to have that piece of a place that is is available for the community in the community um and that would be our regular meeting placed with the announcements prior to so that so that it it indicates we don't know where it's going to be but we will have a regular meeting and this is why we don't know what it's going to be and in the event that that does not exist we will meet at City Hall I would suggest again that needs to be word Smith but and my question is the five day meeting notice for emergency meetings would that give us cover under the public meeting law I know the city ofing another talked about it so many of us are together and so forth so yeah that could that could definitely be a question that um I asked the City attorney but I do believe that as as Ray kind of put this draft together he looked at kind of you know another a couple of the uh other existing um commissions and so some of that language in in there is kind of standard so I think we should be covered but again we could double check that you know as the attorney go through that and I I'll make a point to do that any more discussion and um we have so do we W to what NRA said create a motion off does anybody want to create a motion for that or we need the correct ver yeah we need to change the wording on that and I would think it'd be something like the reparations commission shall conduct a meeting when a place in the community is not available so say like that instead of kind you know but as far as the actual again it's still G be words just going to use less words I one one other way to do this because these are our um bylaws and operating rules and so I guess one question would be do we really need to have an address in here um the key here in this section is to say we're having and we can change the heading so um so it just says the reparations commission meetings and we can say the reparations commission shall conduct meetings the fourth Wednesday of every month and a location to be determined um you know I'm not sure that it's necessary to put an exact address in this section the more critical question in my mind is the we have the day of the month that we're meeting and the time and if that goes in there we can do what you were suggest we can find that location and in our agendas that location is going to be identified in advance I know you're supposed to alternate between the pros and the cons but I'm actually with Rey and I like the idea of saying that we meet monthly but if we don't have to commit to a place or the fourth Wednesday we know that and the pattern will become apparent but there may be cases like December 25th where we may elect to meet on other than Wednesday because it's a special case so I know I'm breaking the Rhythm but I'm I'm with gray on this if we just use the St go for a clarification if you live on the east side that's our community on the West Side their community on some you so how do we Define community when you speak of having a me a meeting in the community when when you this we talked about this before you came that the possibility of meeting in each of the wards so that we can actually be out in everybody's Community okay so so it would be that piece so that that was kind add that to it meeting in having a meeting well we hadn't finalize that but um I guess and again it needs to be clarified but when I think of in the community I mean non uh government um facility I got okay so that's what again so libraries and community centers just pick yeah I mean because they are government because they're but they're they're accessible to the community like business government business does is not conducted there you don't go there to pay ticket you don't go there to not supposed to be debating and your reference are supposed to to the ask the chair thank you for clarifying problem let's just use the stack but we have I don't know what that means how do you do that stack if you want to say something just say stack and then we'll say uh this person's on stack first and this person's on sa second third and fourth okay um m p um I just wanted to add this is is more of a comment as well is like when we're thinking about the community and we're thinking about our community in the in Minnesota and in the Twin Cities a lot of our population is highly mobile as well and they get put in places that not might not necessarily be considered like the community they kind of sometimes have to be living where they can find a place and sometimes it's not really easily accessible by like public transportation I'm thinking about like the southeast side of St Paul is really really hard to get access through through public transportation it's also hard to like for the folks over there to even get to like grocery stores and such so I I just am kind of like backing that idea of like being in different areas of the community so that we are able to be able um to touch more like people and be able to be more accessible to those folks because if we are thinking of like The Stereotype of in the community it might not be accessible for folks that are stuck somewhere that they just have to be at that time I do want to um just make a point that uh Ray again made this draft and so nothing in here is set in stone he just has again gave us something to look at so we can say whatever we want we don't have to say in community we don't have to listen address um I like the idea of a general we're meeting theth Wednesday of the month if there's a holiday we may adjust that and locations will be determined turn stack I'm glad I did that right um can we turn that into a motion well I think we're still disussed we're still discussing about discussing it so we still U I had a motion or I'm a floor so if we want to combine it or kind of combine what NRA was saying with what two guys are saying back um I'm okay I'm wondering if we could go through this document make the necessary recommendation and then vote on it as a whole instead of you piece by piece and give folks a chance you know don't have to vote on the we got left the City attorney look at it first me we can't vote until the City attorney looks at it we can just call but that's even more reason for us to not make motions just to go through it with our recommendations and give the committee a chance to review even some of the folks that may not be here tonight and then make their suggestions or recommendations to Veronica and then that would be the document that would be passed on to the City attorney yeah let me just say it it will be helpful for me that if I know that there is a general consensus from the group on this is our agreed upon draft language then I can take that to the to the attorney who will looking make sure that it's in compliance with the ordinance and whatever other kind of magic they do behind the scenes so you know so I would say let's you know hash it out here and that way I have something to say you know this is Beyond's bra's Vision this is the group's draft vision and then bring it back and then correct you can adopt the whole Shang after the City attorney reviews it and signs off and then well if we approve it we'll approve it if we don't we AB we need the what we get and then maybe even make footnotes if there's opposition to it you know with an explanation why you see where they were they the City attorney pH okay so we won't be voting or moving on each section we're just going to go through each section with a consensus at the end as we go through we will con we will give feedback to each other Veronica will take and then come back and then we look at it again go through it again yeah and then approve it yeah but I would say again you know give give me you know your consensus on you know yeah this is the direction we collectively want to go with this section or you know this set this entire article or this section if something that's still kind of debatable um and then I can give the whole draft two let's just call this draft two raise was draft one let's call this draft two this is the draft that everyone has kind of agreed that works collectively and give it to the attorney and you know there's any other nuances she make you're if you're okay with that we could adopt the entire set of body I think yeah it's important that because we've already kind of took a look at this already so we're kind of you know going through the nuances of it so we kind of know this it's just some adjustments that need to be made you know you know I have some questions you know what I mean still you know with some of this but I think this could be voted on today so I mean not necessarily voted on but this could be finalized today in regards to us taking a look at this and not having to revisit it um I think that um if anybody has any concerns with this they should raise it today because we've already looked at this we looked at this at the last um meeting and we had discussions about this at the last meeting um there are some you know pieces in here that can be adjusted Ray did an excellent job but I think that we need to finalize our information on this today um and I just add in that I agree with what you're saying but the city we still will have to have the clerk or it still will have to be looked at by the City attorney and finalized um so if we can you know get some consensus today and then even if we need to like a group if we want to have a group of us work on it and during after this meeting up to the next meeting uh kind of like a subcomittee is that I don't know if that's something we can do I mean like we'll get consensus today but then just do like as we're working next after the meeting we have a few people like that just kind of stay working on it just to make sure that when next meeting that we're done and that we had this done I got a sad face sorry or stack stack yeah U my body language is probably working here um I'm I'm getting really caught up in a lot of bureaucracy from my job and a bunch of other stuff so I'm I'm starting to feel like this is kind of like that and I and I could be wrong but I think we are kind of on the same page as far as what's here it is just the little bit of minutia that probably is not going to make a difference um but we do want to we are kind of in agreement but it's like moving this here and add the part in there um just to make it more detailed when kind of the general overall I don't want to say less is more but the overall intention of what we're doing and how we move in these bylaws is going to allow us to deal with the things that are granular but underneath the canvas of the generality and so we don't need to list out everything sometimes that gets you into problems so I'm I'm just thinking about that because I feel like it's going to keep going back and forth in the process of yeah say it and just it can really it can really bog you down so I'm I'm concerned about that um we have Mr English Veronica and then R I think um I have some questions real ask about these bylaws real quick if we can just kind of dump to like for example um is it Article Five the Committees um because again we've already kind of took a look taken a look at these bylaws um uh when it comes down to um um um the standing committees and the community outreach standing committees and the educational standing committees I moved to strike all of that language um because it didn't have um the the legislative advisory uh committee didn't didn't have any of that uh any of those committees going on to Let's so before we jump to that let let's just go article by article okay and so we can just go to uh do we agree with article one and so I think in article one we're still dealing with uh the locations and meeting time and things like that so we can get some kind of consensus on that I think we had some good ideas on where we were at with that as far as not having uh a location listed but we have the dates we have the times um it seemed like we were kind of all in agreement and some of that that language Dad yes um if you say you meet monthly and if you let the time in the place be determined because Veronica's wonderful schedule is just for the rest of this year and we're supposed to be Perpetual so I'm back to where Ry was at with the idea that you know a general you know you meet you have a regular monthly meeting I love the idea of trying to get into each Ward but from what Veronica says she's experienced there could be situations where there just isn't a venue in that W that fits the schedule so that's my I guess that's my two cents worth is to keep it General the main points are you're going to meet monthly that's your regular that's your regular business meeting is monthly time and place to be determined and veronicaa schedule doesn't have to be in the bylaws it's a it's a it's an adopted motion any discussion I I think the that to the extent that this becomes a public document that one thing that would be important is to let the public know what day of the month we're meeting and so that part I think should be in there and even if we add the language that the day and um of the month that we're meeting that's set for our regular meetings can change annually and that would respect the fact that this is a ongoing commission so nobody expects that that would be rigid in perpetuity right um but but to to alert the public who will be looking online to say what's the commission doing when do they meet as long as we know it's the fourth Wednesday of the month in this paragraph I think that's key and and it doesn't lock Us in forever because as always the commission gets to alter these bylaws or them as needed but I do want that I do think it makes sense to alert the public that this is the day that regular meetings will be held okay and then this will be oh Veronica and then Kik and then this will be our last comments because I think a lot of us have spoken more than twice yeah on this yeah this is just a this is just a point of information um I am working with the uh technology department and you know looking at how to even Rev maybe our website um on the website you know we can list more of those details and that can change a lot more regularly as needed so we can put the fourth you know of the month I mean it still be in a bylaw but it doesn't have to be it can still just be meet monthly um but on the website we can have the fourth Wednesday and these are the Wednesdays these are the consistent locations the very in locations you know what have you so more of the nuances can go on the website so just FYI can we direct people where to go to get the information about the meeting upcoming meetings that was on the webs and I was say most definitely and I'd recommend that you know any kind of sorry any kind of social media radio or podcast or church that we would look no can show are we so do we kind of have consensus on article one yes okay so are you guys in agreement that we can move the article two yes yes okay pleas let's go over thank you let's go over article two sexual look over one two and if you have an issue stay it or ask the chair if we could speak Mr stack stack yourself with the chair St uh any I'm reading head don't pay any attention to me okay go just do this let go you want to wait till we're done reading before we ask questions oh just say St is everybody uh see people reading their head you were just supposed to do article to people I'm looking at like discuss is there any discussion on artificial on the U provision that deal with special meeting the chair can call for a special meeting without the support of 2/3 one3 of the board by the commission which number is that five am I reading that right special there has a spokesperson I'm sorry number six I five six St call special meeting okay I don't yeah I don't see any it doesn't say it doesn't say two3 says the chair and the commission is authorized to before the page and it was out out okay okay the chair of the reparations commission is authorized to and I think but does it say in here does it say how many uh um it says it in a different um it says in article three or yeah three section two um it says a minimum of five members and I highlighted that I know we're going ahead with this but I highlighted it because I was because I was wondering about that cuz that's different than the 2/3 or whatever that we had talked about earlier CH Z let go thank you we were supposed to do article two so if we can um I would like to keep it to that so then we can actually move forward and have conversation because then it it gets all mixed up I feel I feel as though it gets mixed up if we are jumping from the article to article and it confuses me as far as the consistency of the of the topic understand I just think she was he asked a question about number about that and then the answer to that is in the next is in on computer okay I was unprepared because I only read article two as as requested so are we is there consensus about article two okay is there supposed be a change okay I missed that what do you what do you want me to change that well we just wanted to uh my uncle commissioner Nick said that number six is um he's wondering about number six just one clarification that's all can I because it makes it confusing for if it says six here it said call special meetings requiring action um to regular schedule commission meetings so it it it says one thing this article and then when you read it later it specifies more so it can be confusing if it says it a different way here and then says it another way later on that's why the question was asked can we just move it I mean like again this is rais draft we can take it out and eliminate the confusion so we'll just take we'll take yeah why don't we take number six number six out yeah okay it's kind of repetitive I guess confusing me so okay so we'll take six out is there any more discussion Mr I have a question about number seven but I just need some clarification between simplify a little bit okay who what sorry I'm just wondering if this language could be simplified in the sentence um does anybody have any questions about it if not we can move on I'm kind of wondering what doesn't work about it for you because that would that would help at least that would help me to kind of think about how to simplify it or what is too much or what's confusing about it s oh Ray and then I mean if it's talking about if it's talking about he talking about the chair being uh being in support of the commission's work plan as needed on an annual basis that's cool I just have a question when it says appointment members of committee so is that the chair that's doing that yes okay that's that's the only question I had basic yeah okay yeah that's I was just going to say as just to give you an example of what I'm talking about if if the chair decided that um reviewing these bylaws is too cumbersome in this process and one point two people to redraft I just theth I I just wanted to make sure I was just clear almost there I just want to make sure clear because I because it was a question Miss Pi I just had a quick suggested edit because I do notice a lot of repetition already and so I just something that I would recommend is taking out anything that's repeated multiple times in here yes absolutely that call confusion okay so okay so so you asking to to take out another seven no so no actually you can just move to vote on article two I think are we all in agreement is there well that would include removing number seven no no removing number six I six yeah stra think we got that I got that right I'm sorry I did have one other um and you know consideration that serve as spokesperson this is number five serve as spokesperson and representative of the commission to the public do you want some kind of clause in there to maybe say something about consult with the commission before serving as the spokes person or no no was it good enough if I if I was to speak on as a representative of the commission I would I would consult and say I do yeah I don't think we need to put that you know this is this is stack yeah I was just going to say that um this language was is here in part to say if the media contacts uh uh want a statement from the commission should everybody do that or should it be our chair chair um uh if if um and really need to be careful about that because it will happen and if we're all saying something different then we do come off to the public as if we don't know what we're talking about and so the idea was that we have a chair we have a spokesperson and when it comes to making an official statement of what this body is doing to the media to the city council to the mayor I think that should come from the chair and that's the only thing it's saying it's not saying because we are going to be working with our chair to State our positions and the question is who's communicating those decisions to the public and the folks uh that need to hear it and I just think it avoids having each individual one of us authorized to go and make statements because that I I believe will get us in any more St yeah it's a step um and and again I think when we looked at the roles and responsibilities of the chair and vice chair it was my understanding that was part of it that he would be the representative of the commission you know externally um in whatever um scenario that might be so that's that was my understanding when I voted okay we um so are we in consensus with article two yes we okay IIA pringle's going to uh commissioner Pringle going to lead us through article three all right so we're going to look at article 3 if we can read over article three if there's um anything that you want to suggest switch take out um replace stat stat I yield my stat to The Honorable of this picket okay well I just wanted to this is just quick all I'm saying is um section one I think is one of those repetitive things with article one section 4 and then um on section two that's we striked out uh number six in section two but in in article two but in section three article two the special meetings that's where it says that a minimum of five members need to agree and that's different language or that's a different number than we've been using as a standard for other areas agreed so should we add seven yes section one yes oh section two section two strike section one Al together is what she said because it's it's that can can we consider going back to article one delete section four of article one um Al together and that would make this under meetings where it says regular meetings then that would be the the place for key General does that make sense I mean we just have to change first Monday to Fourth Wednesday but that means we to your point this we wouldn't need section four article we could delete section four of article one and um reduce the repetitiveness and he under meeting section blind meetings that language with the adjustments for fourth Wednesday of every month that's what I would word Smith it to are we in agreement with that no okay chair can you restate so I know what to do here um striking section four striking section four article one yeah okay so we don't have to do anything there okay and in article three just take out first Looney and put forth Wednesday under regular meetings section one and if you want to change that to adjust the start time we can do that yeah and then did you get the change to se uh strike section or strike number six from article I mean no article three sorry section two article 3 section two okay number for quum seven okay oh section five man are voting no no no go back up section two yep and in there there's it says five fourth line down okay seven yep what are we doing then we're inserting the I'm sorry go ahead and that's seven seven instead yeahum that represents a [Music] quum is there any more discussion on article 3 sorry so I know it's 11 yeah but if um say nine what's the quote on the still the majority so you can have seven people to vote on something and it's considered a quorum so then that would pass if everybody voted for that that's my that's my interpretation of this everybody meaning everybody the seven if seven people showed up for the meeting it be a majority of the seven that would that's not understanding that's majority of the seven or is it all seven present all seven present because it is a quorum but still well on some board you can still have a forum but it's the majority present that carries the date okay well again that was my understanding that's what I've experienced when I voted on things they fell it out so it's clear in these bylaws because it is it a City Attorney question it can get conf I think yeah I think that's the you say is in the where is it at well we're talking about section three Corum be able to do a meeting yeah we okay I think man of voting it says majority of those present that's what it says majority of those present you have to have a quorum right to do the business there doesn't have to be said I hadn't read that far ahead I was still on section two this is what I'm telling you guys people like jumping around and it's at least for me it's confusing so no it's still in the same article we're in the same article I understand that but I hav I I didn't take Evan Woods are we clear is that okay we just jump around where we at now we're still on article three yeah we just all of article three so if you can take the time to read in section in we're just reading all of article three so all of the sections in article three and if you have an issue with any of the sections TR to bring it up okay thank you I just had a a question um this this process of of doing this is one of the reasons I want to have something in writing so we'd actually have something to chew on but I recognize that this is a really cumbersome process that takes an enormous amount of time and so if it's possible I would say there's two things we could do one we could have a group of people work on this a small group so that we wouldn't have a violate the open meeting um Revis this circulated by email so people can read it and and weigh in on it so that we're not doing this because this would take another two hours to go through but I'm just suggesting that that if we can continue down this path but I see us eating up an enormous amount of time just to get through um editing this miss this was sent around you said this around a while ago I just so here we are we're almost there okay we're at article three if we could just and and I'mma Be nudging My cousin you're only going to get two times the speak okay okay two times and that's it and that way we can move the meeting on each article on each article yeah so I think at this point everybody has spoken twice each arle not each section I'm listening I'm taking not you got all your stacked up so is there any more discussion on article three I I just need clarification so I understand what you guys are asking me to do so in article three section three where it talks about Quorum was there a consensus of being more clear no on that or you're okay with with the language as is yes yes okay all right and my second clarification read repeat what that is section three quum not the whole section just the part about the numbers and majority and yeah because I thought you know yourself or someone was saying that was confusing right when it says but he pointed out that it says the majority of those present okay so that was my next question so section five manner of voting that's where that gets clear okay okay can we move on to article four no okay you've already spoken twice I'm just kidding she's looking like girl I'll be like this I listen can we move on to article four thank you okay so please familiarize yourself for Article 4 take a couple minutes to look at it and then we'll see if we're all it consider or matter there's things that we want to make adjustment to before we final M pick and then Mr um so for section one um I feel like the last two paragraphs should be moved to um section article 3 section 4 because it is disgusting absences again I felt like that was repetitive that's just my opinion and then for article 4 section two um I just wanted to Second what commissioner English had said earlier about where do we find the these standing committees I didn't see them in the ordinance I could be I just made them oh just okay fine thanks um were you Finn yes um taking a look at uh uh article 4 section two I was looking to just kind of strike that whole thing and then move section three up to article two um because it kind of uh explains a little bit better uh exactly um what special commissions are and you know what I mean um um I do have a question about uh the inclusion of non-commission members I think that should be strucken out I don't think we should have uh committees may include non-commission members such as committees will report to designated standard committee I don't mind that um but I don't think we should have uh non committee members in our in our uh okay if we uh in committee everybody kind of understands exactly what I just said right Z yeah oh I just wanted to ask then because we have the outside committees in section four so are we referring like are these individuals who would be representatives for someone that can't make it to the commission and is that what that's referring to then um so like even within this going back to compensation too I don't want to jump ahead so say um there's a reparations meeting in Rochester and we're saying who's available out of the commission to go on our behalf we send Jam down there so we're going to say we're going to send jila down there to speak on behalf of the same part Recovery Act reparations commission and she also should receive a styen for so I think that's kind of more of what that's talking about going to it says outside committees but I don't think it should say outside committees it should say something else that Miss robberts for special committees when we talk about having non-commission members were you thinking um like an expert if we're if we're having special conversation and maybe we call Dr Williams or else to come in and help us work through an issue that has a level of expertise that we don't have I'm align with that are we talking about um standing committees or ad hoc committees I would say ad hoc committies but I think if we need like an expert that they could just come in and talk to us and give us a presentation as opposed to their own like actually sitting on the committee so the ad hoc wouldn't actually be part of the commission just dealing with specific issue for if that's correct what Nick is saying then you're absolutely right we can always have a professional comand and kind of speak to commission but definitely we should be taking out that language when it comes down to special committies and non- committees members sitting on rep you know reparations commissioning you know sitting in reparations commission special meeting St yeah yes um so again when I read this my interpretation of that as far as again because it's a special committee um I don't know if we're going to have any standing committees at all that we actually create I'm still unclear and I know that after we finish this article but um for special committees I always think of something that is like almost a a Project based committee so there's something that that needed to be done and it's going to take like three or four meetings or we need to have it done in in six months and so having someone a part of that for that six months and and they may be an expert it may not be just a presentation that's always helpful but as that ongoing piece as as we are pulling together what it is that we need to have then um they will be able to provide that and then um they would that would be it that would be the I think that [Music] um we will be able and I'm not I don't want to jump into anything but I think we should be able to decide that when it comes down to um special committies we should be able to go into sub committees you know where for example um not necessarily just us as a group being you know tied to one situ for six months you know what I mean I think we should spread our you know the special committees is more of a spread out of different committees that we be looking into you know what I mean so I don't want to be jumping again I don't want to be jumping anything neither but um what I'm saying is is it's just important that um um non-commission members they you know they stay exactly where they are you know what I mean and Commissioners stay exactly you know we have that designated difference M you know what I mean and sitting on a special commission um as a non-member wouldn't give you that difference we got kolia and then uh I I do want to um just say again this is a rough draft and we are not are you know this was just raay suggestion um and that we need to try to keep it to either what language you want to change if you have the language you want to change make sure that Veronica understands what language that is so that we're not getting into the weeds of things that we really don't need to discuss because we're not there yet so do you want to strike section two and I think Jam the first one I said yeah uh yeah uh the last two sentences of section one move to section or article 3 section 4 and see what is that the last two articles I I just want to go back to what I originally said which was um I was saying you know there's no need for you know article 4 section two there's no need for section two and I think we should put section two I mean section three you should move that to section two so that was what I originally said I just want to go back to what I originally said is everybody okay with removing section two I'm stack I'm not I guess I'm not clear because um are we going to determine at a later point in time if we are actually going to have committees and if so so then that would just we would just amend it as opposed to just establishing the Committees that we kind of know are going to are kind of the basic again those overarching components we're going to have somebody on policy we're going to have somebody on uh Community engagement are we going to have somebody on you know there's there's different pieces that can actually exist as far as our our committees and then from there that's when like the special committees would come up or we could develop another standing committee so it's kind of weird to not have committees for things to work on well in the so the ordinance our NE after we finish this and I don't want to move ahead but our next T is going to be developing our work plan and I think once we develop our work plan we'll understand what kind of committees that we're going to need okay and so I think that will kind of help decide if we need standing committee if we need a standing or what the special kind of committees would be and so again going back to the powers and duties is to make shortterm medium and long-term recommendations on to how to close the racial wealth Gap and so there's going to be certain committees that some of us are going to want to sit on I don't think we should just be bound like if we say okay you're the chair of this commission chair right now right so let's get do the work I I would say once we get to the work plan that that will determine what committees that we're going to do start creating like that so for like this one says Outreach committee the Lac we didn't do Outreach you know in the city we're going to have help with doing Outreach from the city of St Park things like that from my experience right so if I'm correct there wasn't an education standing committee either no so I think that all of this language that's not what I'm saying though but it's part of the language you know what I mean so that's why I say this language shouldn't even be in here and we should be able to a work plan would be able to establish that but I again I'm just advising that this language um it didn't even have anything to do with the Lac so we should be able to move this language off you know off the draft and take section three and just move to section two right what was your thinking behind um like I said you know at some point and I think this goes to your question we're going to need some standing committees question is when do we develop them we don't have to develop them in this document just like I think that's what the chair was saying that's just perfectly fine and so in my mind we could delete this this gave us something to chew on we might hold that and talk about it when we get to that conversation uh but it makes perfect sense to me which you're saying to let's delete section two uh language move up part from section three or wherever did you want there and move forward I really think this is a general document and and that's the other reason why I didn't want to spend a ton of time on it right because yeah we we haven't the work plan is going to be the thing that guides what we're doing and we're not there yet we got to get past this to get there Mr K I'm wondering if we can just remove the number three standing committees as they establish uh St established standing committees as needed and then uh and ad hoc committee rather than to just that's what I was trying that's what I was trying to say so I mean everybody has yeah committees and the SEC but section three does say special committees committees with a special specific assignment made from but that would be determined by us right we could call it a special committee or just a committee whatever name we you know want to put on I would think that we would want some committee that yes sir I didn't get called before but it's okay no to reinforce what what colleag just said we can call them whatever we want in Asheville they don't deal with these this committee language they call them work groups either same thing exactly except now you're talking about what it does it works oh WEA just okay so are we okay with getting rid of section two yes okay you got that Veronica completely section two y yeah yes and so if we do that then I'll be for snic now get my hairs down on my um then for section three as we move that to section two then we would need to uh eliminate the last sentence in section section three yes so because it it it references uh standing committees and so we I got that last sentence in uh section three remove it yeah are we ready for uh Article Five stat and I just want to confirm that I just want to emphasize that the in section three the language of the non committee members uh having an opportunity to sit on special committees I think that it's no goal you know we can always have somebody come in and talk to us you know but I think that would be a noo or and I just want to be back there too that could just be a language change Ronica you get that instead of sit they can present yes or or advise adise okay what section article four um okay line four oh okay the original section the the section three that turned to section two yes article four section three special committee it says special committees may include nine commission members yeah change so we're changing that language it says special committee may include non-commission members okay to say what advise advise uh uh special committee adise uh May advise May advise okay gotcha are we done with article four all right Article Five the last thing almost and please uh take some time to famili yourself to Article Five and then we'll see if like are we done yet we're on article seven no that's how we have less minutes 15 minutes which one yeah sorry it's not yeah here it's up it's up here but we won't have to we already voted on that did we yeah we did what robt rules no that's do the so yeah I don't even think I think to discuss it as article we already voted that we were going to use just for this meeting oh we're just going to use I mean just as we're flushing up the bot okay then so I think we can say section okay so has everybody had a chance to review section five any discussions any conversations about article file that no no this is super this is just like editing if in fact there's a desire oh you were you're on five never mind we're not there no you when you I looked up and I saw the other thing but no I have nothing to say I take it back are we all are we all in agreement great okay do we want to consider article six today as well there yeah yeah yeah so Article Five stays as istic so article six um just point of information uh this copy does not have the change that I sent you an email this was um Joseph's recommendation to use permanently the Democratic rules order so that's anything you want to speak to no I mean it's no it's just yeah there are um uh what do they call planning councils in the city that are using this and if you looked at Robert's Rules of Order it's about 10 times this size that's all that's all it is I'm not convinced that your simplified Rules of Order and and cheat sheet is not the equivalent of this this does have and I'm going to shut up um I think some really nice guidance generally on running these kinds of meetings that's all and so is that something we have to decide right now or do we want to take time to look at look at both of them or Stat Sorry Miss p uh I just I so I pressed that link and it just had a like link to the book yeah and so I just didn't have enough time to even be able to have an opinion about that yet okay yeah so um I think we're in a good place right and um so if we can just look at that like because I know a lot of us are going to be going on to different commissions and different boards and stuff and a lot of them are going to be using Robert's Rules so it's good for us to know that understand it but if we feel like this can help us move quicker so if we can just if you guys are okay with tabling just that's something we can look at at the next meeting stat this my second turn that I really won't take another one no but this is this is maybe a little procedural thing that we can use going forward where something like this which might come up later and maybe other people have done this and other commissions or things that they've done parking lot it's another way of just saying tablet in other words it's not gone we're just not going to deal with it right now yeah because there have been a number of comments that have come up which were technically out of order but they probably will be relevant at some point in time agreed so you want to capture it yeah you know for the record but we're not that's not what we're doing right now yeah agreed and then there's committees for that too that's another committees you said what about this last section section um that's article seven St going um I just wanted to mention with the parking lot that you mentioned I would like to add to the parking lot the standing committees that we can revisit at some point after um we discussed them further to see if we wanted to add these in a late at a later time okay all right so are we all in agreement with where we're at on the bylaws right now all right thank you motion I would like to put a motion to adjourn this meeting all in favor motion passes meeting I thought we had something else had other things no we don't just next this is just extra materials thank you thank you we'll definitely working on I see that book work yeah so is there is there a website or something where people can go to and it's called Amazon you gota get I got to watch YouTube videos okay I would recommend go to the library and they have a copy machine and you take that machine and you copyop here thing you can do is I just Googled it and there's things there documents out here that tell you like these are the comparisons between Rob I just did it what we were just sitting here okay difference between and democra rules Google's Google's your best friend go tells you everything I know how to do that that teach me I'm like you know what I'm looking everything it's all out there the all that fire alarm thing I like okay