e e e e e e e e attendance rise and join me in the Pledge of Allegiance I pledge alance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation indivisible all right let's jump into the minutes item 2 a minutes of the city council work session on on February 18th and to entertain a motion to approve those minutes so moved so can you hear that I have a motion a second all those in favor say I I any opposed minutes one exstension uh the minutes are approved item 2 B minutes of the regular city council meeting on February 25th 2025 I'd entertain a motion to approve those minutes second motion a second all those in favor say I any opposed am minutes are approved item three adoption of the agenda I'll note that we have an update to item 4 C uh to the resolution uh and memorandum Shifting the setup from uh Saturday morning to Friday after 7 p.m. if there are no other Corrections or changes to the agenda I'd entertain a motion to adopt the agenda have a motion to Second all those in favor say I any opposed we have an agenda item four consent agenda to entertain a motion to approve the consent agenda as updated so moved motion a second all those in favor say I I any opposed motion carries item five visitors and presentations nothing scheduled item 6 a the 2025 payment Rehabilitation project ordering improvements approving plans and specifications and authorizing advertisements forbid Mr Copy uh thank you mayor members of the council uh tonight we have our um next steps of our 2025 pavement Rehabilitation Project tonight we'll have a public hearing and um just go over a little bit of the background of the project first um so the uh 2025 pavment Rehabilitation project is Division Avenue from Fifth Street up to the north city limits at the railroad tracks and then 12th Street from Division Avenue to Long Avenue so each year um staff goes through we look at and come up with basically a 5-year plan of what we need to look at for pavement maintenance uh typically a full reconstruction we're looking at about a 50-year life cycle uh the mill and overlay side of things we're looking at about a 25 mile or 25 year um life cycle so kind of try to Stager those so that we maximize the uh life of our roadways uh this year uh Division Avenue is about 64 miles um and that's just a mill in overlay uh 12th Street which uh is one of the roads um that does not have cban Gutter and and up to our current Municipal standard that's .17 miles so we're doing about 8 Mi of roadway uh this year um so back on February 11th Council adopted the or accepted the uh feasibility study so from an engineering standpoint in order to assess any portion of a project we need to find um that the project is necessary cost effective and feasible that's required by State Statute 429 so that was accepted by Council on February 11th uh moving us to the Next Step where Council ordered a public hearing tonight um so um again the uh extent of the project uh reconstruction uh with adding curbing gutter to 12th Street mid and overlay some curb repairs on uh Division Avenue uh we're going to extend a piece of sidewalk which will tie into the uh work that the high school did that'll go from division Court up to uh the South entrance of Wild Marsh to give that um neighborhood access to the sidewalk um system within the city uh we're going to do uh some uh storm sewer repairs uh additions will be on 12th Street currently no curban gutter just kind of a real rudimentary shallow ditch system along there um so we will be adding storm sewer that will go uh some of it will flow back to the west to the storm sewer on Division Avenue and the rest of it will go about a third of it will go east to Long Avenue into a uh system um along the railroad there uh we'll also look at some water and sewer water and sanitary sewer repairs uh we always like to get in and do some of the underground repairs and uh replace valves hydrants as needed uh so that we don't disrupt that uh New Street after a few years and then we'll also work with the private utilities to get any work that they need done um a lot of that's been done already but uh we are coordinating with them to make sure that it is all complete so that they don't damage our new roadway uh so the estimated project costs for this year um so the total estimated Improvement cost is uh $1,382 400 of that we typically assess about a third of our projects that's been historic practice uh through the city's assessment policy um so we'll be assessing about a little over $300,000 and then just over a million will be paid uh through City funds primarily through bonding as far as estimated assessments go um for single family uh we're looking at for reconstruction uh anywhere between 2800 and6 thou a little over $6,000 um if we find they need to do any sewer or Y or service work or water service work uh those numbers are there as well uh we will do those inspections as we move forward with the project uh make sure that um at least as we sit today um it appears that all of the homes up there are up to date but we'll work with the residents as we get going with the project um and then the mill and overlay portion of the project the long division um the assessments are between $1,000 and $22,400 so um you can see why we want to uh try to do those staggered approaches to Pavement maintenance to help save a lot of costs for, to $2,500 to you know a resident share of maintaining the road for 25 years is pretty good um so the assess estimated uh or the assessment payments would be paid over a 15-year period um the interest rate that we charge a residents is 2% over bond rate um in 2024 that was 5.42% um this would be payable on the 2026 taxes um so as we go into the schedule um the neighborhood meeting um uh we had that last year uh we order the visibility study um uh the most recent action we received the visibility Fe usability study in order the hearing on February 11th we're here tonight to hold the public hearing and if Council chooses to move forwards they would um order plans and specs and authorize staff to go for bids um we would anticipate a late April contract award and with road restrictions going on pretty early uh we would anticipate a pretty early start date however uh we will work around the school district uh school schedule and whatnot so there's work that we might be able to get out there and do with School in session but majority of the disruption will be after school is out and then um construction will go we're anticipating May through October we're hoping it will be much sooner than that uh just due to the size and scope of the project um but the uh and then the assessment hearing we would have sometime in September um so uh tonight we will hold the P public hearing um that is an opportunity for residents or Property Owners um with interest in the uh project uh to speak either for or against if they so wish uh so that um they can uh extend their um comments to council um Council will then deliberate and if so uh if Council wants to move forward the project uh staff would recommend adoption of the attached resolution ordering the Improvement approving plans and specifications authoring sta authorizing staff to go for bids uh with that I would recommend we hold the public hearing thank you Mr Copy at this time I will open up the public hearing I have two names on my list I'll will just remind folks that this is a public hearing for the pavement Rehabilitation project and that issue only so I have uh the first name of my list as a resident at 21911 12th Street and if you could state your name and address for the record that would be great thank you Chad 2191 12th Street um I'm going say I'm against this due to I got a couple of you know kids and it's not really in my budget um also I'm speaking for uh a couple of the residents that are also next to me that are my parents own uh for rentals and they um they're trying to you know have you know a small you know Easy Living um and they're going to have to raise their rent up on them and they'll possibly end up leaving maybe because it might be too high they're just trying to have like an affordable you know living um so I I think it's a little out of my budget as well and it feels like I'm taken away from my two boys um so I think that's about it so thank you yeah appreciate it thank you all right I've got a resident at 20 154 12th Street John Moran 2154 12 Street I lived in that house for uh 27 years raised my family there the the street improvements that I see that could be done there would be just a nice Mill and overlay um the drainage seems to be going pretty nice down there I don't believe we need curb and gutter if you come through and take curb and gutter you're going to come in about 10 12 ft into my yard along with the rest of the residents and there's a house right now if you were to cut that much back you'd be like 6 in from his front window um you know I understand about sewer and water that's what I do for a living it's just uh you know and then along with Division Avenue the school come in put that Mega campus down there we come in and talked about it it just basically got jammed in there so that's where all the extra heavy duty traffic is coming from the buses used to come up and down 12th Street all the time park on the street there um you know I have friends that work in the water and sewer departments in different cities they say them water lines and Sewer lines can be um they they sleeve them they they put a tube inside of them and and reconstruct them and make them last longer than what the life expectancy are on some of those uh some of the the numbers that he had up there I I received a notice from the city my bill alone for 80 ft of Frontage is $6800 that's that seems like a lot of money for 80 ft of front road in front of my house you know and with the schools that come in the kids come up they get dropped off the parents Park on both sides of the street uh in the afternoon from you know 2:45 or 2:15 or whatever it is until the kids get out so we still have that traffic even though the city promised us we wouldn't have the bus traffic well we still have the residents that come up division Park on both sides waiting to turn into that school and pick up their precious kids I understand that but um you know you're putting a burden on all the neighbors and like Mr L said you know his parents own some rental properties down there we've got a couple elderly couples that live in the neighborhood um you know I'm not against millon overlay and fixing what needs to be fixed but I don't believe we need storm sewer sidewalk curb and gutter thank you thank [Music] you all right those are all the names on my list but anyone else would like to speak this to this issue is welcome to do so now please hello um Val Hansen I live at 5118 Wild Marsh Drive and I'm supportive of the project um uh Wild Marsh we have the two driveways and we are interested in having concrete apron added to our uh driveway and I just wanted to check the timing with the engineer when he needs to know our final yes or no uh mayor members of the council we will be uh following this uh meeting we'll be sending out some information uh to Residents that we're moving forward the project um typically we send those uh letters out once we get the uh bid award so that we know exact cost from the contractor um so that gives uh residents uh a uh true and exact cost so we expect that sometime in mid April mid April okay mid April that will come out uh residents will have their opportunity to uh enter into that driveway program uh we'll do an estimate for resident or town homes that would like to do that and then uh get that estimate typically we give a few weeks to make that decision and then we'll uh get the contractor working on it okay thanks I just didn't want to miss the deadline thank you all right anyone else would like to speak to this issue seeing none I will close the public hearing bring it back to the council uh Council questions for Mr Copy or comments council member Walsh well well thank you Mr Mayor m i just thinking about what we just heard are what are the options on payment I mean are there some options available to us or to homeowners um I mean obviously you can pay it all at once um some of these numbers are pretty big uh you can have it added to your property taxes over 15 years that's that's like option two are there some other um programs uh relief extensions available to Residents is there anything out there that we could recommend um mayor members of the council the two options that they would do are the uh um like you mentioned the uh pay up front um and then you don't get levied any um interest on that your other option is to let it go to your property taxes over 15year period at the uh rate of the bond rate plus 2% um the options there are deferral options for um senior deferrals so uh if anybody and we'll send out that information following this meeting as as well once we move forward with the project that uh will'll provide information the residents uh through that assessment process um to make them aware of those deferment options if they qualify for it and just since I have the mic just a just a comment on curbs and gutters and I mean we've a lot of times a lot of these projects folks come in from the neighbor say we don't need it we don't need cbon Gutter and we we appreciate that we appreciate the current people who live there saying we don't need curban gutter but one of the philosophies I think is that you know you may not live there for you probably won't live there forever obviously and so we've been doing curban gutter everywhere across the city so we just really haven't had that as an option well I shouldn't say that we no I was a sidewalk where we said we didn't do a sidewalk when a neighborh had said we don't want to sidewalk so we did say no on that but curb and gutter we pretty much have said it's what the city is doing Citywide um and it's you know it'll you know it's not just for the current occup occupant of the house it's for the city for ra so thank you anyone else council member edbert thank you Mr Mayor Mr CI does the um so the situations that were described and referencing the conversations at the mic um would you make the case first of all for uh kban Gunner and the whole nine yards on 12th Street um why is what's what is our what is recommendation where is that coming from how is that consistent or inconsistent with the other practices that we've U mayor members of the council as council member Walsh stated that's been the uh kind of the goal and practice of the city is to urbanize um uh curb um in a lot of the uh instances as one of the residents had spoke uh helps with a lot of the uh traffic the parking issues the um better findes the roadway it's easier to plow it's easier to manage that storm water um um it increases value to properties um so obviously from an assessment standpoint we do not or you know we have an independent enterpriser look at our assessment um we would not assess greater than the property benefit um so we look at um kind of adding value to the neighborhood and then um the uh um other items that I mentioned before um I will mention um we stated that we will be doing some sewer and water repairs minor ones um replace an old hydrant um valve that's not working not wholesale replacement of the water sewer systems um as a gentleman spoke that those can be done um pretty un intrusively after the fact um through lining uh things like that so those those repairs aren't going to none of those kind of repairs need to be made in this area the uh sewer and water are new enough so the uh project generally entails just uh a few uh utility repairs versus any wholesale replacement and what would be the reason to we can't have the curban gutter without a full reconstruction that's why we don't do a Mill and overlay am I capturing that correctly uh mayor members of the council also on on 12 Street um it's a quite an old roadway uh we did the uh so before we go in and we do an analysis on the pavement the existing payment out there and we drill cores down so we drill down and we take a core sample out and we see what's under under there um really it's substandard there's not enough gravel under it for today's um roadway standards there's not enough pavment um I'll call back in the day typically we would have gravel roads in town you come in and you might put a little bit of black top on it maybe you just sprayed oil on it and over the years you just kind of got this hodge podge of layers um so that's kind of what we're dealing with out there where there's not really a set engineered standard for that roadway so even if we didn't add curbing gutter Council elected not to add curbing gutter we would still have to tear out all of that um material that's in there put new gravel in there to a current standard we would put a fresh layer of payment the only thing you wouldn't be putting in is carbon gutter or that storm sewer so um the payment itself it's not just a Mill and overlay even if you were Division Avenue the um the substrate below is solid enough there's enough thickness there where it just really needs a new Surface um 12th Street really needs to be completely removed and replaced okay so can you comment on the um I'm not familiar with the specific houses that were being referenced if in fact um we are taking um U right of way and bringing us within a very narrow space within uh within uh with an existing home um is that a situation and what what what have your preliminary studies sh uh mayor members of the council uh per our current plan plans that we are are working on um we're not impacting uh outside of the RightWay um so we're staying within the Ci's uh right away with there we're yep we're 10 ft back in some areas to grade out we'll uh we replace that resot it um if it's yard if it is driveway we come in and saw cut replace that with like materials um you know a lot of people end up getting half of a new driveway in the end so it does benefit them um as a whole um but uh I'm not aware of any houses that we're getting that close to or getting outside of the right away okay and then my last question senior deferral um so the specific situation I think at least what I thought I heard is that there are individual seniors there who are renting but not owning does the senior deferral uh only uh available to owners who are seniors or is it available to renters who are seniors um it's mayor members of the council it's available only to those Property Owners it's a uh because the assessment is levied to the property not the renter um there may be County or other programs that are available to renters who need who may need assistance so we can definitely help steer them in that direction if need be okay thank you any other thoughts or comments otherwise I'd entertain a motion to approve the resolution ordering the improvements and plans and specifications I appr I have a motion do I have a second okay this fails for lack of a second Mr Mayor yes can we have some conversation I'm happy to have the conversation would someone like to Second it and then I would say is there any further discussion I'll second for purposes of discussion is there any further discussion well I'm trying to understand where are three other council members member Walsh has spoke and I'm trying to understand the issues that are preventing others from supporting council member Hughes Mr Mayor I think that I just did not do my own homework in terms of going to the street and actually seeing um the impact of Street would have on that and I guess maybe I should ask Mr Copy sorry um I understand right of way lots of us put our yard in right of way some of us have fenced right away I didn't do it but it was there so um you know there's a difference between right of way and what somebody is already using as yard and while the city understands that it owns it how much of someone how much is going to be taken that someone is using as a yard right now that going to turn into street are we going to widen the street through this um mayor members of the council as far as widening the street um the actual bituminous mat or the black part will um become a consistent withd um the usable area that's out there so um um we have a narrower mat out there the the width of the black top but there's kind of view space you know where people Park pull over um a couple of feet either side of that so typically we're um going to straighten that out um to generally that location um I think what the worry is is that we're you know in order to put the curb in that we're grading back out beyond that area into the yard if it's grass and they mow it it will be replaced with grass and they'll mow it in the future but um generally speaking what they see as usable width of the roadway today won't change so if it does we're talking about a foot or two not 10 ft correct okay that makes you feel a little better when someone's talking about I I have a neighbor who the ride of way goes through his dining room so uh when we're talking about in that I understand that it we all understand it's the city's property but um it would be very difficult for us to get it back so based on that I don't have any problem with it Mr Copy is there anything unique or peculiar about this payment Rehabilitation project that differentiates it from what we've been doing every year for three three decades uh mayor members of the council is very typical of just about any neighborhood that we go in thank you all right I've had a motion a second we're still in discussion would anyone else have a comment on this all right all those in favor I'm sorry did you council member Edward so I'm in my 16th year on this Council and this is the first time in any of those years where we and we've done a street construction project sometimes two um or multiple projects in a given year it's the first time I've experienced this kind of a conversation at the at the council table so I'm just kind of trying to understand where the where the other issues are council member Hughes I appreciate your your contribution um I'm just kind of trying to understand what's what's going on Mr Mayor please I will to that point um say uh I wasn't aware of any concerns before showing up here this evening so I didn't do an in-depth study of what the road looked like so I was not prepared homework had not been done sorry Miss Crawford council member West um so more or less it was uh kind of sticker Shack for me and um I take really seriously uh when people are saying that it's hard to afford things um that the city decides to do and so I guess it's not that I am opposed to it I didn't necessarily want to be the first one to second in it um but U Mr Copy I wonder if you could so um there's a gentleman who came up and spoke and said that it was going to be $6,800 an assessment for him so I I I I I'm not expecting you to be a math Wizard or anything like that but if if somebody decided to pay that over it's $5 years right I'm sorry but I'm just I'm trying sorry but I'm trying to like I'm just trying to kind of figure what say we need the finance director 453 I div yeah 6,800 divided by 15 now it's without interest and anything that would be F $453 per year okay and that's assessed per month per year over 15 years on your your annual property taxes thank you yeah okay so it's a little under 500 we just call it 500 with all the interest yep okay okay I just wanted to get a measure of that thank you mayor uh Miss West to that point U these numbers don't look any more obnoxious than any other year I will say that I mean it's based on your property size so he's got a nice 80 ft there but I none of them are any further discussion all right right all those in favor say I I any opposed motion carries the resolution has passed item 7A public dog beach beach operations at matasa Park Mr Copy all right me again all right uh matosa dog beach history I'm going not going to go I'll go fairly fast on this just I just want to remind those that have not seen it or are in the audience tonight were not here at the February 25th here um so again it kind of goes back to the 2007 era where we first really started to look at it um Council changed some ordinances and adopted a resolution designated some offleash dog areas um Lakewood Hills vanney and matosa um 2016 we had some concerns Park advisory commission looked at it in 2017 um Park advisory commission at that time recommended closure Council recommended keeping it open 2018 it was reviewed just to see how things were going and they left it status quo at that point 2021 uh public concerns regarding the dog dog beach are heard once again um again a lot of things happened in 2020 with Co and everybody out and about so um I just heard a lot more um a lot more people out a lot more people using the park 2022 Park advisory commission was asked to review the operations recommended it kept be kept open with provision such as fencing uh signage buoys uh 2023 Council kept the dog beach open um with the recommended Provisions made by the park advisory commission 2024 uh as good measure uh Park advisory commission was asked to review that operations again um uh really worked with uh law enforcement or police this time uh in 2024 to do more visits down to the dog beach and just found some different uh clash with the code uh regarding the leash requirement how the um ordinance was different than some of the language adopted in 2017 when they uh signed the uh dog beach requiring a leash um so the two didn't match they weren't able to uh do the enforcement that they were requested to do um so in 2024 um the park advisor commission said that the beach should um the offly dog area mosa should uh remove the um dog lease requirement to comply with or to align with city code and didn't see an issue with it um to help with the enforcement side clearly sign entering and exiting the dog Beach area so that it's very clear for law enforcement um if it was kept open um they recommended just for good measure to extend the buoys separating the dog beach in the swim area in additional 50 ft just to prevent uh dog from getting few got out kind of near the end so they thought that would be a good measure from their visits down there and then they supported the uh the concept of seasonal csos that would work the entire Lake Shore along Whitebear Lake within the city um so the again the only like real physical Improvement would be to extend those buoys at additional 50 ft just as a reminder those looking at the map that uh pictures from last year the Y dock typically is not in that location uh but we decided to use every piece that we could for the swimming beach just because of the uh uh lake level so uh the Y dock is typically south of um the dog Beach area um so tonight uh um based on recommendations from the uh February 25th public hearing um staff was asked to bring back two resolutions the first resolution uh would direct continued operations of the dog beach implementing improvements Reed recommended by The Parks Commission second resolution um as an option would be to a resolution terminating terminating operations of the dog beach um other options would be is to reject both and it would go on a status quo uh we did not provide resolutions for these two options but or uh based on the conversation of council at the February 25th public hearing um whether they want to direct staff to look at other locations while either keeping open or closing the dog bead so uh with that I would be happy to answer any questions thank you Mr Copy uh in terms of process we've got two resolutions before us it really doesn't matter how we approach this I think we're just going to have a general discussion it makes sense that the resolution deciding whether to close it or not is really the where we should start the conversation and then if it ultimately is the will of the council to keep it open then we should take up the second one to decide what that looks like if it does remain open so that's how I propose we uh we take this um I'll just kick things off uh with just a a thank you to the residents um who sent emails uh and made phone calls to me and the council since the public hearing um as I noted the public hearing which was very well attended I encourag people to email and I think they did um was was impressed with the participation I will say if I didn't respond to everyone I did read all your emails but there were a lot of them so thank you for that participation I'm sure I'll have more comments as the debate goes on but we'll kick things off with uh just throwing it to council anybody want to kick us off with uh whether they want to advocate for keeping it open closing it well Mr Mayor I I'll go first I guess um do do what is your preference do you want a resolution on the on the table to discuss or do you want to have an open discussion first um you well I think it makes sense for someone to move the the primary resolution closing uh closing dog beach operations uh we'll see if it gets seconded and then at that point we will take uh a healthy pause and have Lively discussion on this so I would entertain a motion to approve the second resolution before us uh which closes the dog beach yeah so that'll be my motion i' I'd move that I have one question on the resolution but maybe I can get it in in second and first to see if we even going to have discussion of it I have a motion on that resolution do I have a second second any further discussion on this council member just a question for staff that prepared the resolution um the last Clause be it further resolved the city manager is hereby directed to bring forward a proposal to the city council amending the municipal code as necessary relating to offleash dog areas in matasa park I've been working on this a little bit and so I don't think that's necessary I guess I guess it doesn't hurt to have it in there because it says as necessary I think the the language is pretty um um it's it's more wide open it's not related to matasa park the the definition of designated area is a designated area in any City Park area as defined by the city council set aside for the dog training or recreational activities so I don't I don't know what we would amand in the city code I mean so I just some maybe if it's not necessary we can take it out if it's okay we can leave it inord mayor council member Walsh um in 2007 the city codee the city council I believe amended city code to allow three offleash areas and one of those is matosa I need to do some I need some more time to do research that's why I put the as necessary but I didn't want to miss that because in 2017 via resolution something was adopted that doesn't align with M Municipal Code so I was trying to kind of have a catchall in there but um more research needs to be done regarding if Municipal Code needs to be brought back for amendments okay good then we'll just leave it in your I think it's worded right because it says as necessary so it doesn't certainly doesn't hurt um all right well we don't have to spend three hours on this tonight right so I just I made some notes uh after listening to the um public testimony I got a lot of emails um um we kind of we all spoke I think which was appropriate at the public hearing just to give some feedback although some people said you know we tipped our hand after the public hearing as if we weren't listening and it and then fixes is in but it's kind of darn if you do darn if you don't I mean if we say nothing it feels like we don't listen if we start to say what we're thinking then it's like well you know you already had your predetermined and I didn't bother coming so I I want to say that everybody up here is listening um but at some point we have to come to start start coming to a decision individually on it so I don't think I don't think any of us did anything wrong by voicing where we're at where we're going what we're what we're hinted at so uh I vot voiced that night that I I'm leaning towards um closing the beach I just you know we heard all these arguments I just mainly it just doesn't fit it's an amenity that does not fit and we talk about that a lot in the city when we we talk about developments in neighborhoods um business zoning things like that things just sometimes don't fit where they're where they're proposed and this thing has I think the mayor said last time um a victim of its own success it's grown in popularity clear popularity we heard that passionately um it's become so big and so popular in this small spot in this neighborhood that it just doesn't fit let me just tick through a number of things we heard in the in the discussion um no particular order I guess I did order them but uh the order doesn't mean that much one thing we heard is W water quality a lot of people talked about water quality I don't think water quality is an issue um I'm not worried about water quality with the dog beach as is I'm satisfied with the testing that we're doing um so if your reason to to vote it you know to to to keep it open is is because water quality one way or the other it's really not an issue to to close it or to keep it open I think and that's never been voiced by me and I think a lot of people that would rather have it closed I don't think that's the strongest argument for it noise however I think is an issue uh a legitimate issue a legitimate concern for the neighborhood um and and and we heard some discussions like well noise could be anywhere in the city you know dogs bark all over the city uh it might not be the dog beach uh and dog barking and noise is not limited to the dog beach that's all true conceptually but I've been on the council nine years and I don't remember a noise complaint in nine years in the council in W one at least no one's ever called me and said there's a noise issue in word one this is a noise issue that we've heard about for a long time so while there's a perception or a possibility of a noise you know council member edberg you used the you know the example of a guy in his garage working on his cars um that could happen that does happen um it's a one-off thing that can be dealt with this is a constant noise issue in one spot and it's been happening for years so I think I think it's just a little different we talked about this conflict between our ordinance on leash laws um and I think this is an interesting point because it's it's clearly a conflict we' we've got a sign on the dog beach that says dogs have to stay on leash and and I was here when we did that it was kind of ad hoc between counc member Jones in the audience you know which is it was we we we try to get to yes right that was council member Jones trying to get agreement and it just got thrown out what if it was a 30-foot leash rule would that work somebody shouted yeah it'll work and then we voted for it well it it doesn't really work um so now you have this conflict between our code that says leashes don't have to be worn in designated areas I just read the definition of designated areas in a park uh and yet this sign is sign at the park says uh dogs must be on a leash so the answer is to take them off the leash which which exacerbates the problem of dogs being off leech that's one of the big problems with the dog beach we're hearing from the neighborhood in addition to noise and so I think I think the fact that the answer to this conflict makes the problem worse is another point that tells me this doesn't work here it doesn't work here and and our own conflict in the rule in the in the code kind of brings that out the solution makes the problem worse um so maybe there shouldn't be a dog beach in that location cuz we getting him off Le I think makes it much worse um a lot of people say well if we close the beach people are still going to come there it's going to be a big enforcement problem um maybe temporarily that'll be the case if you keep the Beach open I think we're going to see the neighborhood complain more I think one of the one of the points made in this process was there's only 10 calls from the police and and one of them was you know one of them was this one was that so really there's no problem there's no data you know from the neighborhood showing this is a real problem I just if I was a neighbor and I heard this discussion and they kept the Beach open I think that we could have an increase in calls coming from the neighborhood this summer because maybe we feel we got to get this more documented so it's not a reason neither is a reason to keep it open or to close it is what might happen after we make a decision if we vote to close it uh people for a while may come down and try to use the park I think there's going to be a learning curve there I think there's going to be some Behavior modification that has to happen uh but over time I think that goes away over time I think the the word will get out there is no dog beach at Wier lake anymore and people will find another place to recreate their dogs so I'm not I don't think that is a reason not to not to close it it's also a reason not to keep it open um that the complaints might keep coming um if the vote is to keep it open you know we'll have to live with whatever what the complaints come through so I will say this uh mayor you said you you you were you're happy with the feedback I was too but think well I don't know that this is our best moment as a city we've done a lot of debates a lot of contentious debates up here and I think the Su of the tone um has not been the greatest I think we've lost some civility in this debate and I challenged people in emails that emailed me to say I get it the dog beach is a popular amenity help me as a council member balance this popular amenity with the concerns of the neighbors the real concerns of the neighbors today and I didn't get much answer I didn't get much help in that I think that's where the civility kind of took a turn because if there is no good answer if there is no good balance then it's well forget the neighbors they should have known better when they bought it they're exaggerating the their claims about dogs taking Hamburgers off of plates maybe they're lying they should have known better before they moved in um they should understand what it means to live by a park you know everybody lives by a park can't complain and shut the park down um that's where the I think the civility we lost civility a little bit in this discussion um because I think they can't argue and they can't come up with a with that balance question of how do you balance a really great amenity that's getting overused in a in a neighborhood with property rights and everything else so that's kind of where I come down and my last point is that I think we're being a little inconsistent here um uh on listening to neighbors we usually listen to the neighbors we usually listen to the neighborhood I think a little better not always um sometimes Neighbors come and and say they don't want something like tonight we didn't we're we're not going to listen on the on the kbon gutter project we don't always listen to the neighbors but I really feel like we're not listening very well here and and you know I'll give some examples we we listen to the neighbors um on cter roian belir last year or two years ago I think now um the original proposal was perfectly legal it fit it met the rules um uh but the neighborhood didn't like it parking concerns um they were worried about water runoff which we always take care of we would never do a project without being perfect on that um so we said no did the original proposal we listened to the neighbors they came back with a much smaller proposal that developer didn't make as much money uh we listen to the neighbors that proposal is going forward and it's good um I'll just give another example not So Much from the public because they weren't really involved in this discussion as much but we've talked recently about putting the dock back the public dock back at the end of Clark Street and we had a discussion internally and I think staff reached out we were very concerned with the two Neighbors at the top of the hill at Clark Street that would be impacted by the public dock going back in we were very concerned about those those two neighbors and then you know half a mile down the beach maybe not even half a mile down the beach we're not listening to the neighbors that are saying this is a problem it's a persistent problem that's not going away so I want to listen to the neighbors this thing doesn't fit where it's at um it's Unique in the state because it's super hard to do dog beaches because of all these problems especially without a parking lot and everything else is concerned so that's why I'm moving the resolution to close it I I pledge to work on finding another location if this is an amenity that Wier Lake seems to think we need to provide for the rest of the Twin Cities or for our residents um I'm happy to do that it looks expensive everything we look at it's going to cost money um but I'm I'm I'm willing to do it and discuss it and and maybe even vote for some money for it because of the out of the outpouring of support we have for this amenity so it just doesn't fit here so that's that's why I'm moving the resolution all right any further discussion on this council member Ang strand I'd like to add an amendment to that to close the seventh street beach also with that dog beach for the same reasons why we're closing the dog beach and for the same reasons you don't want to open up the CLK Beach it's too small too loud kids are louder than dogs so I going to put an amendment in to close the beach also all right I have a motion to amend the resolution to add closing the 7th Street swim do do I have a second the motion fails for lack of a second council member angrand I I was puzzled at our last council meeting when you wanted to close the seven Street swim dock if the dog beach Clos and you started to flesh it out a little bit tonight you said for the same reason help me understand that because I think that's sort of in my mind part and parcel with where the Divide is in this conversation which is people that have dogs and like dogs and then it's sort of the insinuation that if you're want to close the dog beach somehow you're anti-dog or dog ownership so can you flesh that out for me how are they the same kids recreating and dogs well you you're worri about um volume of people or the noise kids are there for 2 3 4 hours 5 hours at a time dogs are there for 20 minutes half hour and they're gone kids there a lot longer kids are urinated in in the water a lot more than the dogs are kids are going to yell scream and holler when you throw a ball at them or a frisbe or something more than the dogs so if you're going to complain about the dogs you got to complain about the people the area there is too small you can't like just lay out and have a picnic there it's all the same reasons there's another big beach just down the road two of them as a matter of fact that they can go to so just wrap my head around this way we can also added more canoe paddle boards and get that list that somebody said was a mile long shorten okay and Bill W is always looking for us to make some money there you go we can make some money okay well I mean I'm I'm understanding your argument you're entitled to it I I would I would push back and say the sound of children playing is not the same as excessive dog barking maybe you folks agree I I think they're to two totally different things I think kids swimming at a dog beach or at a at a swim dog are not the same as a rambunctious dog that you know I'm sure there are some slow dogs but most dogs are pretty quick and they're prone to running off so I think that's a whole different U analysis altogether um so I have a hard time squaring those two and the reason I wanted to bring it up the motion failed so that's not a part of the resolution but I think it does in part speak to what seems to be the back and forth on this which is this this argument that the overarching policy belief should be that folks with dogs absolutely have a right to the beach dogs have a right to recreate in the lake over and above the consideration of homeowners that have valid concerns and I have a hard time reconciling that and and council member Walsh when I spoke at the beginning and thanked people for their participation I meant genuine the volume and the fact that people spoke up the tenor and some of the content that I read from those that were in favor of keeping the dog beach open was just downright rude um that's relevant to me not that I care if people insult me or if someone calls me a dictator in the paper uh I have a thick skin um but what it does for me is it helps crystallize the complaints that I've heard from many many residents when they say we've tried to approach these dog beach users and tried to be respectful and have been met with contempt have been met with disrespect um who do you believe I can only give people my own Impressions but based on many emails that I've read and comments and Whispers from the public hearing some that were reported back to me after the fact those two things seem to jive with each other the the folks that that um have said emails that goes beyond what I would call Honest civil discourse so beyond that I've had my own interactions at the dog beach as a park commission member and as mayor um and I've I've witnessed some of that it hasn't as nasty as what's been reported to me it hasn't been quite the same tone that that I've seen um in the emails but I've witnessed that with my own with my own two eyes so it's frustrating to me as I try and and balance these two as I said on the park Commission in in 2017 when I stood up at that Podium when we were dealing with this issue and the same complaints I said everyone here on the park commission Loves Parks and wants to do everything we can to create as many amenities as we possibly can uh and that was at a time when the the park commission voted UH 60 in favor of closing it at that time so the idea that people that are in favor of closing it are doing it because we want to take away rights that we think dog beaches are bad that we think people with dogs are bad just simply isn't the case I love my four-year-old border collie I've never used the dog beach but I love dogs this is an argument of basic logic of finite space very real complaints that despite what some have said that it's one or two people or not in my backyard argument make a public make a a data practices request you can audit my my uh mayor uh email you can see the ones that have come in people that are live nearby um live several blocks away live on the other side of white bear that have a sail bolt moing buoy people that live on the other side of the white bear white bear that have a a canoe in the skids this isn't just a localized thing of just a few people that happen to deal with it every day although that is in and of itself very important um because how would you feel if you had to deal with this every single every single year um every single day with dogs barking and where we're at today and this is why I've gotten uh so frustrated with this issue is because the discussion that we're having right now is not something that is borne out of the last 12 months of deliberation the last 24 months of deliberation when I spoke at the last council meeting I went through a chronology starting in 2007 and then went forward and Illustrated that these complaints are date back many many years I was incomplete when I when I made those comments comments and our learned City staff was able to dig up some research for me so this to me just underscores and helps inform my decision and why I have the position that I have there were complaints of dogs running loose and excessive barking those are from the minutes of the uh Park commission June 21st 20 2001 June 1 21st 2001 additional comments from the park Commission in 2001 in 2005 in 2005 back before it was a standardized uh and designated dog area for Parks so this isn't new and after all these years of deliberation after me personally spending a lot of time there since 2017 on the park commission and then in in recent years at what point do we simply say we've gone out of our way to try and throw money at it throw accommodations put fences up put buoys up put doggy bags there try to increase enforcement and if we've done that and the complaints have only grown and it's not that the conduct necessarily has gotten worse but the volume of people using it and therefore the volume of bad conduct has gotten worse and to me it it just is a no-brainer and I I I grant I grant you that if you're someone who's been using the dog beach for the last year and you think this is the greatest thing ever you don't have the benefit of all that history but I do and I've tried to look at this as objectively as possible and to one of council member Walsh's comments because I received those comments too oh why'd you have a public hearing your your opinions were pre-ordained well no I kept an open mind um I've just not seen anything change or improve since 2017 and I think we've just come to the point where it just needs to end um and I like council member Walsh am committed to finding Alternatives I don't need an alternative in place in order to close it down because if it's a problem today and it's it's worthy of closing down then we should just simply do it and then accelerate as quickly as we can finding an alternative um so um I'll just end by saying this if it if it stays open and we implement some of these these changes extend the buoys um try and add some enforcement but it's not going to be de dedicated to that area alone we're still going to have barking dogs we're still going to have dogs off leash and we're still going to get calls and as if all of that weren't enough I have such a hard time knowing that police and csos inevitably are called and have to respond to this knowing that it is going to divert those very important Public Safety resources away from the really important things now they'll do it because they're dedicated public servants and they'll go where the the calls direct them but that's difficult for me to stomach knowing that we could have prevented those calls um and we could have just stopped some of this madness now um and effectively used our our city resources in a better manner so that's where I land on this and that's why I strongly strongly urge the council to close the dog beach any further discussion here all right council member edbert thank you Mr Mayor so I too have had an opportunity to Bri ref I've tried to reflect deeply I appreciate the time that we've had in between the uh public hearing and this evening where I come down I think there's four things number one I am convinced that this is not an issue of Public Safety we don't have a water quality issue I um it's not an issue of Public Safety number two um I am convinced that we have an issue with our are leash laws whether it's the structure or enforcement or some combination thereof I think that is an issue uh worthy of more attention um we have uh conflicting practice um I think uh councilman wal your description I was there that evening when council member Jones was negotiating in in the in the manner that you pretty ACC ly described that that jibes with with my Recollections as well so I think there is room for more discussion on that um I have not been convinced by the evidence that has been presented to date um it's all anecdotal from the neighbors I don't I don't not believe it but it is not enough for me to uh deny the use of a of a public amenity that we have at this time I could get there but I'm not there tonight and um I think a I'm prepared to vote no on the motion in front of us and then would be prepared to offer another uh alternative for our consideration after that um but at this point I'm not uh um compelled by the evidence that has been presented um that this is uh that the balance is quite right and I am trying to find balance I'm not sure that we have spent enough time looking at Alternatives I'm not sure that we have identified the specific issues of feasibility and availability I was particularly uh moved by um or struck not moved struck by um formal council member Fraser's letter to the uh press this last week where he suggested we should engage with it with Ramsey County whether there is an opportunity for a similar amenity elsewhere in the county maybe in White Bear I don't know but I thought that was worthy of exploration um so that's um that's where I come down for right now and uh we'll see where where the uh where the vote ends up council member edberg can I ask you a question because you brought up Council Frasier and him saying we should engage the county and you were struck by that were you also struck by the fact that he said he was a council member in 2007 and supported this and what it has become is not something that he supported would have supported at the time the understanding when they designated this area as a dog beach was vastly different from what it is morphed into today because I did find that compelling as someone who wants to go back and look at the record were you struck by that I noted it fair enough the other issue that I'd like to address and this isn't just for councilman bredberg but anybody who's inclined to keep it open because I haven't come up with a good answer at least not one that I would want to hear as the father of young kids when there was a gentleman that testified here at the last council meeting and has written several emails recently and over the past couple years about how he's had to restrain unruly dogs um in order to protect his small children and we keep it open knowing that that will always be a continuing threat and possibility how do I give him a a fair justification how do I how do I Square our decision with a dad who's just frustrated because we as a city are allowing this to happen and don't have it completely fenced in and because it involves water could never have it completely fenced in and I don't mean to pick on you council member edberg but anybody who's in support of it what do I say to that gentleman it exists all over the city anytime you have an Unleashed dog he is a wise parent for exercising caution as all parents must exercise caution about children crossing streets and children being in environments there's all kinds of those are issues and risks the best of my knowledge that's the only anecdotal experience that has been relateded to us but there may been others I don't know but that happens all over the world all over the all over the place that's my that's my reflection uh it that's fair life involves risk you you get an automobile you it's risk I I understand that but there's a concentration there's calculated risk it's hard to avoid calculated risk when it's just in your own front yard I mean you can't avoid that right if I they they're dangerous parts of the world in a public place so the individual the the story that I'm recalling is that it took place in the swim Beach area or at the Nexus between the dog beach and the public space so it's in a public location uh that that's fair my my understanding of that story and I could be wrong uh was because this gentleman lived a few houses in from Lake Avenue that this did happen at or near his own property um was what I was told he was talking about having to put himself physically between his children that were swimming at the Seventh Street swim Dock and the dog beach in that particular instance he wasn't in that area and that's what concerns me anecdotal or not and I mean everything's anecdotal every person who walked who spoke in on behalf of the dog beach was anecdotal toal so I don't I don't that doesn't make sense to me you're never going to have perfect f facts and perfect statistical analysis um what I saw with my own eyes is anecdotal but it also happened and I wasn't lying and I'm not lying now when I say I saw certain conduct so I don't need an overwhelming body of evidence I don't need this to be a weight of evidence as I said in 2023 and as I believe I said a few weeks ago this is always going to be 910 955 popularity contest I get that but you have to give additional difference to the people that live near not right next to because the complaints have come from people that have are much further out into the neighborhood or people that don't even live in the neighborhood but have canoes kayaks um use the Seventh Street swim dock launch their boats there and I just I don't know I I get that it's very tough to look at a crowd of people that want to keep something open and say something unpopular that's just the reality I think it our charge is first and foremost to provide basic services like police fire ambulance keep the roads in good working repair provide clean drinking water and yes we want to provide Parks that's really important but parks that override people's use and enjoyment of their own homes have to be given special consideration and there's a hierarchy when it comes to parks in my mind or schools for that matter anything that's a a public accommodation a public um perk we'll say even if the perk is really really good if some of it if some of the bad stuff that is around it has a significant impact on private property people's free use and enjoyment of their property you have to take that seriously um and you can still land on the other side of the issue I understand but when I hear I'm just not convinced we need we need you know more evidence on this I don't know what more evidence we could possibly have we've been beating this to death for uh well if it started in in 2001 uh 24 years is when it started and they've only they've only continued to grow so my my my concern is that this conversation will never end that we're still going to have these complaints and we're still going to have a a very large number of people that simply don't get to enjoy their property not because we needed to put a school in that area and sorry you have to deal with the lights of the football uh Stadium or cheering fans for a handful of Fridays um not because this is just a traditional park with some swing sets and you have to deal with some some children playing there there is no right to recreate your dogs in a body of water it's a really great amenity and I wish we could provide it and I hope we can provide it somewhere else but there's no right to be able to do that and if the negative impact of that however disproportionate to the popularity is significant enough then we have to suspend the amenity I don't know how you come to a different conclusion than that I I I I just don't so that's my thinking council member angran back to your deal the there is no leash law in matasa Parkville so even if you close the dog beach the dogs still don't have to be on a leash that's the second part of the resolution for uh undesa it as a designated area so mayor the you and I are not necessarily far far apart in our thinking uh press for me is your process and which comes first I don't think we've looked hard enough at where the alternative location is the neighborhoods of the argument has evolved and it's taken multiple forms over time the most recent is it's in the wrong place okay I accept that I accept that that might be true and we should go looking for an alternative so that will be my Approach but in the meantime there were 100 visits by citizen citizens representing this community this body who have also given us their documentation of experience and that carries weight so to suggest that there is it's all anecdotal how I don't know um 100 100 anecdotes from people who don't have a v interest okay and having a vested interest is not a bad thing I'm not unsympathetic I'm I'm hesitant to I'm hesitant to go down this route but I just can't help myself quite frankly uh you say don't have a vested interest the park Commission of course they do I've sat on it for 5 years they have a vested interest in Parks they just simply have an opinion on it I mean so I get it but their obser aren't the gospel truth if you're going to if we're going to go through credibility assessments if we're going to if we're going to weigh credibility and make credibility determinations then there is no greater credibility that than I will ever give to someone that lives there 24/7 and if it were one or two people it would be different perhaps in in 2017 it was a smaller group in 2023 it really did grow the breth and depth of different people from around the community that came out in opposition and stated really good valid reasons um helped inform my my opinion I would say Galvanize my opinion even more but with with all due respect to the the park commission and I appreciate their recommendation as I've thanked countless countless times for their their hard work and dedication uh I just simply disagree we could play that game all day long it was 60 against keeping the dog park open so in other words the park commission unanimously voted to close it in 2017 I made many many visits that summer I made many visits in 2023 and a bit last summer um and I can say it's it's only gotten worse I won't single anyone out to the people that were on the park commission uh were on the park Commission in 2017 that were on it today I believe they're approaching this issue with the best of intentions but it's still just an opinion and that's helpful it's part of the body um but to say that that's you know better anecdotal evidence I just I just don't buy it people that live there every single day have the most credibility because no one other than those that spend their entire life living near it are going to be able to attest to anything other than at best a couple hour snapshot in time even even if it's every single day which I doubt it I doubt I doubt anyone's spends 2 hours 7 days a week during the prime months so great you haven't had any bad experiences I don't know how that's possible because I I've never had a situation where I didn't see a dog not on the leash I had multiple occasions where dogs did defecate in the water and to be clear I'm I'm with you on the water quality thing I think you're probably going to have a higher concentration of a health issue at at Optimus where the aoli the the different bacteria levels are higher I get that that doesn't mean it's okay that doesn't mean it's not gross to see a higher concentration of dog poop in some area even if it doesn't create a public health risk I don't want to drag my kayak and step in in dog poop I don't want to go rig my my sailboat so that is an issue um so anyways from a credibility standpoint there is there is a balance that you have to weigh with that and I just I don't anything short of fully fencing in the area and making it so that dogs no longer bark will ever solve these complaints they will always be ongoing and I just am not prepared to say as a matter of public policy a dog beach even though it's popular is though popular is more important than the rights of private property owners and their free use and enjoy ment of their property that list of people seems to have grown at least with this last taking up of the issue I'm not prepared to say that it's a valid opinion to say I'd rather I'd rather harm or inconvenience a handful for the benefit of many many that's that's an argument I'm not prepared to make that I'm especially not prepared to make that when the people that are are living with it and dealing with it are the taxpaying residents of Whitebear Lake and as we saw from the petitions as we saw from people that showed up many of those dog beach users are not residents of the city of Whitebear Lake and my responsibility is to them first and foremost and the popularity is what's accelerating so many of these problems the popularity is driven by the fact that it is a destination in the Twin Cities and it's not that I want to keep anyone out I don't want to be exclusionary but if their reason for coming to White Bear Lake is to use a dog beach that does have issues and does affect the residents of white be Lake the folks that voted for me then I I don't care taking that amenity away that's not my first concern and we just know that that's the reality I think you don't disagree council member edberg that you understand that this is this is no longer a good fit for that space you're I you know I don't want to put words in your mouth there's no real doubt of that but you want to find an Al alternative for all these folks and that's that's fair but finding an alternative doesn't take away the very real problem that exists today so I say we we alleviate the heartburn that it's causing first and then we set about trying to find an alternative which has no guarantees by the way I think the Ramsey County is a good idea we did that in 2017 we looked around Mark bur was a city engineer at the time we spent a lot of time trying to find Alternatives um I there was a note from either 2005 or 2001 where it sounds like they did the same they tried to they considered the other side of the boat launch they considered the other side of Manito Island um and nothing seemed to be nothing seem to be feasible so I'm I'm willing to take that up again but that comes after we alleviate the problem that has existed at least in one form or another since 2001 council member West um I just wanted to be clear there was 29 1 White Bear Lake residents who signed the petition to keep the park open so um it they are taxpaying citizens um I I just fundamentally have how many opposed it I don't mean to cut you off that's fair how many oppos like why I'm just I'm trying to figure out why why what why you're interrupting me can I can I go on you can then I'll then I'll correct the misleading statistic that you justed um so I fundamentally have an issue with closing a public amenity without having some sort of other resource available there were a lot of people that came here with a lot of ideas and and maybe we have looked at them all um but I mean the types of ideas um were wide and and and um and varied so I think that you know to me I really think that engaging the community about like the dog park and maybe Parks as a kind of a wider issue is something that I really want to see and I know our priority is always safety and health of our community and the roads but also we haven't really focused a lot on Parks and so if we could really do that in this upcoming year I think that we could do something um and find something that would work for most I understand that it's going to be another year of concern and we would have to update some of the things um and and the neighborhood is not going to be happy with that and and I get that and and that isn't an ideal situation and also closing a public amenity without something else there is I I just I have I have a problem with that uh 736 I believe was the the opposing number you said those are the residents which that's a lot of residents but it could be 500 it's it's it's still ones that are that are in close proximity that have to deal with it and it's for those 200 191 residents that signed the petition that clearly like it many of whom have said by the way I don't use it so okay uh it's it's precisely for that that I'm committed to trying to find an alternative those are two separate issues it's a separate issue saying should we as a council should we as a city invest into Parks which I believe we should that's why I spent 5 years on the council that's why i' I think I've I've pushed for what we need to we need to take Parks seriously and I'm I'm fine doing that but having that discussion is different than what currently exists today and whether there's a problem those are two separate issues which is why again I'll say this is not about people that are pro dog beach and anti-dog beach pro dogs and anti-d dogs it's whether or not we have a discret problem that we have the ability to fix and alleviate The Angst that it's causing for a good number of residents and I say we do and because that angst that it's causing is more compelling to me than people's enjoyment of using a dog beach that's what we address today and then we take up finding an alternative after council member Hughes um council member edberg what kind of evidence would convince you I'm not trying to argue I have sent dozens of pictures into the city dozens and so I'm just wondering which of those can I get back out and send to you so dogs off leash I agree we have a leash issue let's get on that one I'm on board with that I'm coming to a different balancing point the mayor has laid out his yeah I've laid out mine so if all the dogs stayed on leash in that area you'd have no problem with it I'm not trying to argue I'm just trying to understand I'm trying to find a way that we find a win-win and it might not be possible but I'm trying to invest in that right um okay the only reason I'm hitting on the evidence is because I have spent so many I've spent so I've spent I've sent so many pictures and um part of it started the it was last spring uh the mayor said hey you know Lindy had requested the park commission to reopen this to to I I can't even put words in your mouth and I can't speak um to look at this again and and um would I keep looking at it and would I take pictures of anything that I saw and sent them in and um one of my kids had golf on Friday I've told you all this so I've sorry but not I'm saying it for everybody else's benefit golf on Friday and I would sit down there at the swim dock for about 3 hours every Friday and it was about every 15 minutes and I would send those pictures in about every 15 minutes there were a couple come there were a couple uh conversations I would have with Lindy on the side about was happening uh what was happening down there there was a CSO down there at one point we were talking about um but it it it was real it was happening and so in terms of the evidence of of of what it is I I whatever you'd like to see I'm certain I have multiple photos of it um to get off of the she said he said I'm certain I have them I'm certain I've sent them um my I made some notes and I just I didn't I I don't want to sit up here and argue I know you've already got a lot of us already have kind of have some a direction we'd like to go but um Beyond just the issues that we've heard about the neighbors um I hear from a lot of the park users because they know because one I'm there but also they know who I am and when they're con and when they have a complaint about what's happening down there I am the person they go to about it regardless if they live in my w or they don't so uh many of the people or you know some of those groups spoke last time but it is obviously the Seventh Street dock parents um who are down there as um the letter we got and the uh and the and uh the neighbor who spoke that's not a one time um I've had I have never had to rustle a dog down but certainly I get up frequently and make sure that my kids are safe that is that's not just two of us parents that are doing that so that's something that happens down on the seventh street Dock and as as an aside actually when um when they offer was made well why don't we just close both of them down we Mr Walsh and I just had a discussion about why don't we just take that up why don't we just take that and close the entire area down and that's a win-win right that would be a win for the Neighbors we'll just get rid of that we'll get rid of the dogs and we'll get rid of the kids and we've got no problem anymore but talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water the kids love it down there it's I I I couldn't in all Consciousness get rid of the swim do in order to get rid of the dog problem but it was really tempting um the other users down there because it's a marina are the um are the people who rent the buoys they pay to rent the buoys part of that payment goes for the upkeep of the wi dock they're able to use the Y do in order to tie up their sailboats and we don't have any mechanism for keeping the dogs off of that um or for keeping owners off of that to use as a method of throwing out dummies and balls out to their dogs um while keeping the dogs on leash might stop some of that it won't it won't actually stop all of it the dog owners love walking the dock and um throwing balls to their dogs and outside of a CSO down there all day long I don't see how that stops um that was one of the problems we had uh for the last few Summers and um the first summer that was when the uh city manager at the time said don't enter into any conversation with people down there just call the police just call the police um that's that's what we were told to do this was the way we were going to fix the problem um there were no notes taken by any police officers in terms of like I was called this day um and so then there was no evidence on hand of how many times the police had been called in order to go down there and address what what at that point was well still you had to have dogs on leash and there was no there was no keeping the dogs on the leash and then there was this two-sided Battle of we were told to call the police but the police weren't maintaining that information for us to go back and say Here's how many times this had to be stopped or even if we didn't call the police were on a driveby how many times they got out of their car to go down there and speak to somebody as another aside um how frustrating to find out this spring that I mean it seven years that we have no ordinance in place in order to there there was nothing for the police to do other than to walk down there and say hey put your dog on the leash no tickets given no warnings no nothing because there was nothing there but I'm not sure how to put into words how frustrating that is to know like we were told to call the police and that something was going to be done but actually nothing was ever going to be done because there was nothing there to do I can't tell you how frustrating that is when the mechanism you're told to use doesn't actually exist and just going into the frustration of the neighbors nearby that you know you we all get a par and say well you know there's a leash law for that there's an ordinance for that there's a blah blah for that we're going to stop that well we were told to do something that was never going to do a thing and at one point I was even emailing with Ellen this is awful I am calling the police on my neighbors in order to put something on paper that isn't going on paper I don't I don't care about 99% of the people down there with their dogs but what we were told to do was to create this database of information that wasn't even coming about it it just is awful it's awful that's just a a segue that sucked um and it doesn't make for friends I mean these are my neighbors who who now won't talk to me give me dirty looks say Cuddy things online and it's not about having a thick skin and not being able to take it it's about what the hell and and this wasn't paused because I wanted to be a jerk and be like get your dog out of here that was the mechanism we were given to fight back about something that doesn't make sense it doesn't make sense the situation down there doesn't make sense and that's what we were told to do and it just created crap okay so then you've got the Y dock that for lack of a better term is covered with dogs and so you're over there you're trying to get onto the Y dock off your sailboat in order to rig it up and that again is a place that we have designated for that use and it is being shared by dogs so the swim do is being shared by dogs the W the wi do is being shared by dogs the um the skids where people have their dingies is being shared by dogs because they they they are running around on there the launch is also being shared by dogs it is not nearly as common but I have sent in those photos of dogs swimming around the launch from the dog beach swimming around over to the lunch while the owner is yelling from the beach Harvey Harvey Harvey come back I do have that photo I don't know where it is I know that I sent it in right there in front of the launch it's a terrible spot can we go back uh Mr Copy about your to the photo so that is four different user groups down there that are sharing their space with the dog when the dog is not sharing its space well so you've got a personal dock up there at the top and the Y dock where a swim dock would be and that red line and then the Y dock would be right below it and I guess I'm just trying to make the point that this is a very small area and the dogs are outside of their bounded area into areas that other users have the right to that we've given them the right to the swim dock the wi dock the launch and we haven't done our job of keeping the dogs in that place and owners haven't done their job of holding on to their dogs to keep them into that space and council member West last time around asked the owners of the priv of the property nearby why don't you put up a fence and really the answer needs to be why doesn't our fence work and if our fence doesn't work then it's not really a dog park every other dog park is 100% Bound by fence because of this issue dogs don't stay in their area without the boundary and of course they don't they don't and once you let them off the leash which is what happens down there all the time despite the fact that currently they're not allowed without without leashes so the hundred visits down there where our own Park commission members are saying it's great the dogs are all off all off leash that is against our ordinance it it's such a small area and I know the point has been made my only point being to add on to that that's four different user groups that are impacted by sharing by the dogs and you know to add one more thing about sharing you know we don't also have in this city we don't have a dirt bike track that's not a park we have we only have one park that has um disc golf you can't do that in any other Park we've only got one little park that's got a little bit of a ramp for thank you than you sure um we've only got one little area for skateboards that's not available in every Park we've got no Park unless you can use it there for roller blades we don't have a park for every single activity we don't so I'm I'm not I'm not sure why that is um a huge thing just a couple miles down the road there is Otter Lake Dog Park it is very big it is properly fenced it has actually two separate areas big dogs little dogs um you can run your dog to high heaven there it's just on the other side of the otterlake elementary school it's glorious so there is access to a dog park right next to us um so it's not as if we're saying no dog parks no places to go um my other final well two others um I don't know anything about dog poop testing I will say though that we're testing for human diseases in dog poop areas and if we're really interested in testing we probably ought to test for dog diseases that can be transferred to humans I doubt we're going to do that but I would think that would be the more that that would be the more useful thing to test for rather than testing dog poop for eoli there's at least five or six different diseases but I'm okay not testing it um you would like a dog park possibly Miss West would like a dog park I don't mind having a dog park but not right here and my problem with keeping it here until we find another one is what the council did in 2017 we're going to do this until we find another one and then nothing happened it went nowhere I can't tell you how many times I've been told sitting here at this dis there's nowhere else to go and so while I appreciate what you'd like to do here um and I I mean tip my hand I thought we owned a piece of property that's just south of Ramsey County Beach do we own it we own a couple mayor council member Hughes we own a couple one is a drainage that we technically actually don't have access to legally um we would have to go through Ramsey County there's much more research that would need to be done um that Mr Copy and I have been talking kind of offline about depending on where tonight goes gotcha I I didn't find that on my own but somebody offered that to me because I was looking for a separate spot to go and I will say my interest here is that I want to get rid of the dog park where where it is but nobody else is looking for a place nobody else has any incentive to do it and so I would say rather than keep this one open until we find another one the incentive is not there to find a separate location the incentive only comes when we close this one and say you can't come here anymore let's go find another one otherwise we're at status quo and then what you're saying is no this is fine fine and that's how it feels to me is if if you feel like this is fine this is absolutely fine really but okay but I don't see how we say I don't see how we vote I don't know exactly how the resolution is voted I don't see how we vote to not close this and think that we're going to have the proper incentive to find another location because the incentive is not there for the users to find anything and the incentive is not frankly there on the city to find anything on City staff without being battled down by me um to go find it uh so I would prefer that we close this area to dogs because it's not only because it's so crowded but all the other user groups down there are impacted by it all of them um say save the money on you know another $10,000 worth of buoys and whatever fencing that would really be necessary in order to make this at least halfway decent and spend some time finding it there look at the spot that's just south of Ramsey County Beach apparently we own two different other locations along the lake that we could look at there's another park over in South Shore that I don't know that would be viable but those things only popped up within the last like honestly two weeks when there was a little bit of momentum to close this where have these ideas been for seven years nowhere so I would just say if we could look at it and close this location and use the impetus of that to find a different one okay any final thoughts on this council member West yeah I think um the impetus um council member Hughes I think if we instructed the city staff to be looking at um Alternatives and also engaging the community more um about um kind of Park priorities I think that we could get there um you know I don't I don't have a desire to keep um a dog park in a place that continues to cause issues just because just to keep a dog park there um it is really about kind of the public amenity piece um uh the other thing I just wanted to ask about because it was brought up uh by a couple of people was um sort of the issue of conflict of interest and I think I'm I'm clear on that but I just wanted um to make sure that people understood um the conflict of interest um and how that works with college council members who had um uh personally uh personal impact on um a decision and I asked um the city manager to talk to our uh our attorney to talk about that if that's okay Mr Mayor please sure thanks mayor and councel um so yeah I was asked about council member hughes's involved in this um you know obviously she this is a bit more personal to her just given her where she resides and and um the connection she has with the dog beach um but it's not a it's not a disqualifying interest that would require a council member to recuse themselves um that really only arises um a per se conflict in that situation if there's a financial interest at stake here it's a this is a policy call um you know again it certainly may be more personal to her than to others but but um that doesn't disqualify her from participating in the discussion or voting or or anything um like that so um do that answer your question yes thank you yeah is there a valid concern that someone had a conflict over this issue council member West uh it literally came up in and several different people had that type of question and I just um didn't have the exact answer for it but this was really clear clarifying for the community that's fair so you were answering the questions of constituents very good that's fair uh any further well I was trying to hold back though I just Mr Mayor just on that point I okay there's no conflict of interest it's actually an absurd question actually cember Hughes sending me emails about this issue before she was on the council and so for her to recuse herself we have five Wards we're not a very big city the wards are small it's a huge issue for her Ward so what they we're going to leave the ward to un un uh represented uh because she lives near it it's it's it's not even close so I just want to be on the record saying I'm glad the attorney agrees it's it's not even close let's vote I agree with you okay I have a motion and a second for a resolution terminating the dog beach operation at matasa Park all those in favor say I I I any opposed no I vote of three to2 the motion fails uh the resolution fails all right we have a another we have another resolution before us and this one is a resolution approving continued operations of the dog beach located at matasa Park and ordering improvements Council what would like to do with this or would someone like to make a motion on this resolution council member Edward I'm not seeing a particular need for us to take action since the last my understanding is that our last action is binding until changed so I'm not seeing a need for us to take another Mo another act um as our presiding officer I I'll take your cue on when you might entertain a motion to uh uh launch a uh an investigation into where we might find a uh an alternative site with the goal of moving the the uh existing dog park well I think a couple of things uh first of all although the previous resolution failed um even those that that supported keeping open the dog beach recognize that there are very valid concerns that at a minimum what we currently have hopefully we can do better so do I personally think this is the correct solution no I I think the idea of repealing the dog leash requirement is ridiculous um I think you're just going to exacerbate the problems um In fairness in 2017 I thought it was ridiculous when council member Jones said let's have 30 foot leashes I I think the whole area was never going to work um so this resolution is was brought to the council and and as a presiding officer I want to offer it to this body and this body can do whatever they'd like with it uh including it not getting a second or if those are inclined to move it they can do so um depending on how that goes uh and through some discussion which I think we can have um we can decide whether or not to table this is issue in its entirety um and look at Alternatives and all the things that with it but that's where we're at today this In fairness to the the park advisory commission they did put it all this work in and though I disagree with it staying open this is their recommendation and we ought to at least uh be responsive to that recommendation and not ignore it in its entirety so with that we have a resolution before us I'd entertain a motion to approve I'd entertain a motion to table this uh so mayor I I might be thinking way off in a different space but if we actually take a promotion that passes three to two to support that becomes a a a motion that you can veto which then requires four votes to override so I'm not you know I might be playing parliamentary games in my head but I'm not interested in playing that game so um we well I'm going I'm sorry to cut you off that's fine but you've said the word game three times that wasn't in my head and I'm not I'm not setting anybody up for a veto so if that's the line of analysis you're going down let me just dispel that right now um I would have you can pass this or not uh I haven't thought about whether I would veto it if it was moved and seconded I would be lobbying very heavily for at a minimum removing the repealing of the leash requirement and I would listen to my colleagues and I would I would Advocate accordingly and if it did pass I would and I found it in my prerogative to consider a veto which I haven't and didn't until you said that that would fall to the mayor's office to decide to do so but I haven't considered that and if and when this is motioned and seconded during the discussion I will say as a for a third time and maybe in more detail I don't think repealing a leash requirement is a good idea as a matter of public policy I'm still not seeing the need to uh Act to reaffirm an existing position and that's a that's a fair that's a fair comment um and that's one of the five council members opinion would anyone else like to move this uh and if no one wants to do anything then we'll move on it will simply fail for lack of even a motion mayor may I uh weigh in here thank you I believe the reason that the dog leas requirement repealing that from that resolution adopted in 2017 is to align with Municipal Code the city code uh allows an offleash area in mosa park right now so that uh I'm just clarifying for everyone who may be listening that that's the reason why that that's in there which would um align with city code that as Miss Hughes said is that's kind of that is a huge deal right now that our code does not align with the park rules so either one should be amended this was the recommendation of the Parks Commission if you wanted to uh amend uh Municipal Code then we probably need a different resolution or to amend this resolution council member West this is just a request to put what the um resolution actually is back up on the screen so we can see it council member Walsh well I'm I have no interest in the other resolution um I think there's a consensus on looking for alternative locations I don't know I guess it ask the city manager do you need do you need us to formally ask you to go do that cuz you're going to take up staff time and energy on it I mean I I would support a if you needed a motion like that that's an action we could take if you don't need a motion to do that and we all just sort of agree and that's the sense of the council and you guys can act uh that'd be fine too with me mayor uh to answer council member Walsh's question I think it would be appropriate given kind of where where the council is at on this to uh direct staff through a motion you don't need a resolution to direct um my office and and then staff to to look uh other alternative locations but I would if you wanted the parks advisory commission involved in that they they should be included in that in that motion too well Mr Mayor I I think that's a One Direction we can take and i' i' happy to make that motion as sort of laid out by by the city manager including the Parks Commission and it can be broad enough so that that staff can sort of take it where where they go Mr Walsh would you would you be willing to hold that motion for a moment absolutely so we have a number of topics coming in front of us and even in our current moments we have an and they all center around our vision for parks and trails I'll speak up how's that thousands of people are watching this right now need to be able to hear you um so we have a large number of issues around parks and trails that are emerging in our community we've spent most of the Last 5 Years on issues of Public Safety I have no issue with that I'm glad we did it I'm interested in asking the question is there a different way or as we prepare for our comp plan activities in another couple of years that are down the road one of the sections of our comp plan deal with Parks Trails I don't remember there's a third one in the third item in there it's not waterways but it's along those lines but we have issues of urban forestry we have issues of cutting down trees and parking lots we have issues um around these locations I was intrigued uh by the idea that if we were to relocate the dog beach and possibly maybe not the seventh Street uh swim um swimming area that we could alter and increase the service for other users of that space um and I don't know what to think about that I would welcome some additional thought around parks in general the lead issue for me would be an alternative for the dog beach but there are other things along those lines and so there is part of at our at our uh work study session a month ago uh the topic of a comprehensive plan for well not okay not the comprehensive plan but a little C comprehensive plan for Parks was raised and I have just been thinking that there's a number of issues that could be resolved not by looking at the small piece but by look by putting multiple pieces on the table but I but I emphasize the first one in my mind is alternative locations for uh for the dog beach um and so the question that I would pose is can we actually take our eyes up to the Horizon and not necessarily down at at the ground and think about is there a direction to staff that incorporates the dog beach and these other issues that's where my brain brain wants to go now that's just me and takes at least three of us preferably more to uh to get to a decision on that my comment I think I think both of them make sense I think they're they're separate issues I mean they're they're they're sort of intertwin but my my concern with that is we have a discret issue and valid concerns that everybody recognizes we ought to try and address and then what what you're suggesting which I'd be all for some actual kind of global planning for Parks um is a bigger issue that will take more time and resources and I don't want an alternative to this site to get swept up in what could be an 18month two-year process um so I think they are separate and and both have Merit but I would I would urge us to to go forward with those individually and we can do both of them tonight you can still direct staff to do that but they're separate and Priority One would be um finding an alternative and U council member Walsh because you haven't made the motion I would suggest that if it truly is the intent to find an alternative then a motion to that that effect of an alternative or a replacement to the matasa dog beach so that it's clear we're not trying to add one another one this is this is to move it to a different location which I think is the intent of the council is not to those that are in favor of it um is to move it not add move it or end it okay yeah Mr Mayor yeah I guess I'm I'm not against the broader look and I think our Parks Commission that's sort of their mission isn't it I mean they should be doing that anyway and in long term and you know look bringing us ideas and reviewing all that but I think this is we we need to really focus on this issue with all the discussion we've had here and all the community involvement and I like Council M West says about engaging the community I think that's a a key thing we heard a lot of ideas a lot of lot of very interesting IDE is creativity and so we got to keep doing that i' I'd say let's keep it narrow and then uh I'm not against the the broader look as also um I think we should maybe we set a time limit on it uh our work I mean so whatever you think might be reasonable uh city manager um you know end of the summer fall October whatever some some kind of date like that is what I'd be thinking so let's not spend two years on this let's not let it get lost uh let's do some work um back of the napkin on what cost might be or what look at without without you know getting an appraisal or anything that spends money but uh we can kind of look at some options so so let's say October one all the okay October one all the fer of staff on timing but if I'm hearing it correctly this is more than just a hit we've identified a site we want a pretty robust proposal including at least some rough estimates so that we're not saying yeah let's now start exploring what this looks like we want it somewhat fleshed out I mean and it it doesn't have to be this doesn't have to be um all at once there can be touch points along the way we do talk about things and have updates you're speaking very very optimistically like we're going to identif I I don't know that we're going to find an I don't know if we're going to identify one either about exhausting pieces of land and and uh in the city that's that's the kind of review I'm looking for I I don't know that we're going to find something and get a proposal back I don't think that I completely agree um but I don't think it hurts us in in in a motion or a direction to staff that um you don't need to wait until the deadline if something if an alternative site is is discovered as feasible to set about saying all right it's going to cost x amount for some buoys we got some fencing so that you're not saying here's an address what do you think it's here's an address and a proposal for fencing and a rough estimate of cost so we have something to go on is that effectively your motion 11 okay uh council member edberg so I'm amenable to the suggestions that are being made I could picture some aspects of uh the review of the a feasibility stud if you will there's there may be some need for water testing of potential sites there might be a need to spend some money not lots and lots and certainly not along the lines of the major Capital Investments that we were discussing moments ago but I don't want anybody to be surprised or you know down the road say we never said ding ding ding whatever ever so um is that Spirit yep absolutely okay so do you want to now do you want to form that Miss uh member Walsh well I hope I have uh well different pieces or articulate it so we can all make sure we have a sensible like feasibility study of uh of options to move the dog beach um to another location uh get some information back by October 1 um earlier earlier yeah yeah obviously like earlier as possible there's no it's just kind of a deadline I got everything clarifying question mayor please um are is this feasibility study within city limits or along White Bear Lake I I don't think we limit it to to within City Limits I think if there's a Ramsey County option uh maybe I should have spased that better we can't can't be out I think the question was it doesn't have be on Whitebear Lake it could be in the city no absolutely not yeah absolutely doesn't have to be on Whitebear Lake okay no consensus okay I have a motion to that effect do I have a second on that motion second I have motion a second any further discussion seeing none all those in favor I'm sorry can I just stay for the record if we could look at what it would look like across the other side of the launch definitely what it would look like south side of Ramsey County what those those other couple pieces of properties were like that we actually exhaust those and think about them so that it's so that I can say with all to myself and to everyone else we have looked at that and it's better it's worse and it is specifically because of these reasons that people can have a discussion but I just wanted that on the record council member edberg and I would add to that other parks that we might already have I'm picturing um handlos maybe vanney maybe some others I I time this weekend uh going around with a couple of our Parks uh uh commission members visiting sites that they had talked about they would not describe their recommendations as a feasibility study it was a general assessment an idea kick intellectual Tire kicking is what I would put more in the in the spirit of um but other locations that have water they do not need to be in our community and I would include a discussion with Ramsey County to find out is there something outside of our community that might also be um an an acceptable location that could be uh uh developed all of the all options are acceptable to me okay any further discussion I'm going to clarify before we're done one more time mayor um the there's no guarantee here that we will find anything um that that you know yeah there's no guarantee so I just want to be clear with everyone who's watching that we will do our due diligence we are not a consulting firm uh so we uh we'll do our best it will not be a formal several this thick of a report but we will do our best without uh exhausting a lot of City funds thank you very good all those in favor say I I any opposed motion carries staff is so directed Good Luck council member West yeah can I ask a question about the um changing of the municipal code for the dog leashes cuz I mean I guess if we're really thinking that not having dog leashes in that area is going to make it even worse I'm not you know do we need to change the mun municipal code to make sure I sounded Minnesotan there um to so that um the dog leash requirement um in that part matches what the code is so like if we have a code that's for dog beaches within the city of White Bear Lake or dog beach at this location needs to you know the dogs need to have leashes just a question sure mayor and councel thank you um well yeah from what I'm hearing it sounds like there was a resolution passed back in in 2017 um establishing a rule at the dog park about having leashes on your dogs when you're inside of the designated area um but that rues inconsistent with the code and if you want to have teeth to any kind of rule if you want to enforce a rule you have to have it in your city code uh because um I think council member Hughes pointed this out already tonight you can call the police all day long on people for doing things that might be um uh inconsistent with a resolution but unless it's codified unless it's um expressly um in your city code you can't write them tickets you can't do much other than tell them hey the council would prefer you didn't do this so um I think it would be a relatively simple code amendment to um include language to that effect consistent with the resolution um into your city code it would just take some time staff would have to put it together and then of course you have to have two readings for ordinances um and then it would have to be published before it could take effect but um that's certainly the council's prerogative if you want to direct staff to work on that I mean I think we need to plow forward ahead with that we we had issues um feedback from law enforcement saying they were handcuffed to enforce this pun intended because they they that's their job is to enforce the law and the law is unclear so let's correct it and if it's the will of the council to say we don't want to we want allow people that not have leashes that's fine I don't think it is so let's add the teeth to it and I think uh staff will come back when working with the city attorney but it looks like in 2007 that that stretch of matasa Park was designated as a designated area and in the code we Define that designated area as a place where dogs can be off leash so we just need to narrowly tailor that to make it clear that in that particular designated area you have to have a leash or carve it out so I think think we need to do that council member Edward thank you mayor I would support us taking up that issue sooner rather than later preferably before like soon um I wouldn't necessarily frame it around how do we gain coherence with existing with the existing ordinance that might be the right approach I'm open to other ways of thinking about leashes and Leash requirements in general and does our whole overarching policy need reconsideration um for us to address the issues that have shown up in this conversation so I'm just saying I don't know what that would be it's been a long time since we've had that debate that discussion I don't remember all the ins and outs of it so um I'd come at it from a standpoint of how do we enhance Public Safety how do we etc etc and what what kind of language do we need in order to achieve the the outcome that we've been uh seeking here that and I don't know maybe maybe that's as simple as coherence I don't know yeah unless we want to go back and reinvent our our our leash law Citywide which I don't think we do I think this is a pretty discreet issue and if if it's the public policy charge of the council is to say have an enforcable leash ordinance and Rule as it pertains to the dog beach at matasa Park we can keep it as simple as that and then we'll defer to the City attorney and staff toward Smith it as they see fit okay I don't think we need anything formally can I just one one more time yeah I think you just I wasn't perfectly listening so I was trying to find it myself you said that at some point this Council designated part of matasa beach I I need to see that because I I don't as part of this uh do we actually do that so I need to see that as we as we do this discussion you designated the council at the time in 2007 designated three areas in the community um hlow in Lakewood Hills vanney Lake Park um and mosa Park uh the Waterfront not just I'm just saying when you do this research bring those forward bring those that motion forward well that's what yeah I I if if I can ask tonight see it in the code yeah that's all I will do that if I could ask tonight when we so we can prepare um language would you like all three areas to to be removed or just matosa uh I don't don't ask me I I think this is I think I think this is a discret issue that requires a discret response so before we change things that have not been an issue then we keep it to matasa okay that would be my suggestion and I'm not seeing any push back so let's do that I think I think we got it clear and we'd like that at the next council meeting because we're going to have multiple readings so that'd be great okay thank you and council member West just trying to March through this agenda go um I just had I just wanted to clarify and make sure that uh so we're not moving forward with the parks uh commission recommendation correct this time no new sign okay very good item 8 a under new business Construction plans for Downtown parking lots Mr [Applause] Copy all right let me flip some pages around here we all evening for that mayor members of the council um at our February 18th Workshop we brought back to council uh to discuss the uh uh downtown mobility and parking study and um Council directed staff to bring back a proposed parking lot project for consideration uh in 2025 um contingent upon um the uh project being financed through City uh fund balance to uh allow that work to happen in 2025 so the four Lots I'll kind of go through so a lot one located at third and banning uh was built in 1964 uh basically we would um uh continue with the existing layout it would it requires full reconstruction pretty poor condition that's kind of the market Fest lot um really no opportunity to create any additional parking spots uh a number of years ago 10 years ago or so uh the city hir a consultant to look at different options and there's basically the layout that's there is the uh one that provides the most parking lot number two located at street and banning um was built in 1974 um this is the uh parking lot behind Ace Hardware uh there is an option to provide um a revised layout uh contingent upon removing the for mature oak trees um and that also would require full reconstruction if we do that if council did not want to uh explore um adding the additional parking we could potentially get by with a little bit less than a full reconstruction um as uh some of the curb is in decent condition um others would need to be replaced um lot and lot two that was the uh what was shown in the um uh Mobility study um caveat is is that it was not universally supported it was uh kind of lukewarm uh just due to the impact of cutting the trees down in order to gain that parking uh Lot number three um is located at fif and cook built in 1984 um existing layout would be maintained minor curb repairs uh full payment replacement small lot basically um just Mill and overlay and kind of get in and out um just part of the uh kind of the Downtown parking areas um lot four located at thir and cook uh behind the Armory was built in 1987 uh this we could do and I'll get to a couple of maps here in a minute but revised slightly Revis layout and um um generally full reconstruction in areas uh we'll be able to Ser save some of the curb but um it's kind of a 50/50 so kind of more hinging on that full reconstruction um so the existing conditions we have um those are the layouts of the four um one thing I'll get into in a little bit here too is that when we go in and reconstruct these we will look at current Ada accessibility requirements and what uh stall so as we get in these are very I'll call it the first kind of rough draft that we've gone into we've not done the actual construction plans yet but uh we will have to look at um Ada van accessibility stalls uh for parking it's based on the number of stalls in each of the Lots um so that may so the the total may go up or down by one or so um just to provide that van access aisle um obviously if we can engineer it and and squeeze it in and and not lose a stall we will definitely do that but to meet current ADA requirements we would need to do that um so proposed conditions um um the two I will focus on are the uh lot two in the upper leftand corner that is the Ace the parking lot behind Ace um the four green uh spots are the trees that would need to be taken down large mature oak trees um the area in red hatching would be that um area gain to uh take a look at different layouts um that is a what's shown there today is that layout is one option we really staff sat down here about a week ago and really need to um um get somebody in and and um um hire a consultant to do some options for us uh just to get their expertise at it uh they are much uh doing it every day they definitely have or may have different ideas as how to uh most efficiently lay that out um the other I will touch on quickly is the parking lot number four the one behind the Armory we have the op um to get rid of a couple of old parking islands that um not sure really why they were there if they were small trees that were planted there at one time trying to save something but there's nothing in those areas um and the uh the Green Space provided meets city um zoning code so we're we're good there we can remove those we can add um about four stalls uh to do that again once we get into the engineering drawings we'll laid out and know that exact number but uh we believe we can uh gain a couple of stalls estimated cost um the uh from the downtown Mobility study um just over $1.7 million to do that that again includes some contingency in there um not knowing what uh level and what amenties that we would be constructing in there um also would um include that we would um use uh um some consulting services to uh do that work um whether we do parti partially in-house and partially Consulting I think we need some Consulting Services um like I mentioned the uh the option to do the different layouts for the a slot um I think is a uh valuable use of that resource uh the other expertise that we will need to uh reach out um likely the same consultant is uh to look at lighting for us um to make sure that we have the proper amount of coverage and um locations for those lights and wiring um we are not experts at wiring or electricians here so we would uh need to hire them for that as well again this is assuming that and I'll get into the schedule next but this assuming that we would fund this through fund balance out of the payment management fund project schedule so this is kind of uh we're at kind of the drop dead date if we don't move forward now likely it is it could not be a 2025 project uh barring the amount of work that needs to be done to get plans done um all the details get it uh bid um so really we would look at um maybe bringing back a preliminary plans if we do some draft layouts from for the a slot that we would uh try to bring that back in April so that we could uh council could approve plans in May to move forward with bidding a project um the construction would start immediately following Market Fest Mar this would be the Monday following the last Market Fest so basically trying to avoid uh conflicting interest in that route uh we' we've had discussions with the market Fest folks and over the last several years and and uh from a parking lot schedule standpoint whether it be be this year it makes sense obviously to do it based on schedule after market Fest um if we delay the project um and council's not comfortable moving forward with this funding approach or um schedule we definitely could do it as a spring project before marketfest or split it up uh you know uh depending on how much work um potentially you know a couple parking lots before couple parking lots afterwards but still definitely doing it before we get into doing the streets especially south of Fourth Street um so those two parking lots the armor or the uh Armory lot and the market Fest lot to to definitely do before we do the streets the two uh to the north um more so proposing it from an economy scale to do it as a as a larger project hopefully to get better bids um so Mr Copy can we uh although it's not in your PowerPoint can you go over the public realm kind of I was going to go over that here before we get into but I can uh let me jump back um all right so public realm so I have some notes on that too here um so from a lighting standpoint uh so there's three um kind of elements of the public realm that we want to touch on that would be or to some extent incorporated into this this project um lighting um some of the colored concrete amenities and signage so take them one by one um like I said we would really need to have a lighting expert coming and and assist us um we do have Acorn style lights that we have throughout downtown I'm starting to do a little bit of research um there we really have um we can maintain that style we obviously have a lot of infrastructure north of or Fourth Street into the north that have the acorn style lights um we can definitely switch Styles um maybe not recommended unless we're looking at a project to do something to the north later but um there's definitely different options to provide the recommended downlighting that the uh Mobility study um uh represents so if you look at our current Globes on our Acorn they really cast a lot of light upwards and outwards not necessarily down to the pavement where it is recommended to be uh both from pedestrian stand Point as well as a safety from a traveling motor so if you look at even like a freeway you have the big freeway lights they cast all the light down on the payment so that you can see line striping you can see crosswalks you can see um it's become more of a more than just a decorative element in in area so I'm going to add to that uh that's also I think a requirement in the proposed zoning code for parking lots would be that downcast lighting and so you could think about it as the lights that we have along the Lake Avenue Trail or the lak links Trail or uh Mark saor trail that we have um would could be similar um lights that we use in parking lots which can complement the acorn style along streets so it doesn't mean they necessarily have to be the same right yeah and that's and that's uh definitely some options that we would have that consultant bring to the table um again we're not experts at it we don't look at I don't s look through lighting catalogs every day so they and definitely bring that um expertise to the table um I I will also state that uh you know we had some uh conversations come up during the study and and is briefly mentioned in it that you know there's kind of a 50/50 but there was a lot of Desire they people like the bronze color obviously the green is what is downtown in a lot of the uh a different ameni so um whether Council would want a uh and that's an easy kind of last decision but something to think about that that's the uh theme that we want to continue it's obviously throughout a lot of our downtown area and maybe something that we want to maintain versus trying to spend a lot of time repainting or uh rebranding that um in a lot of other areas downtown um the second item I'm going to cover quickly is colored concrete um this the mobility study definitely calls it out is that kind of of um uniqueness to layout really where pedestrian ways are meant to be you know I'm going to use Washington Square for an example that uh you definitely you know try to keep the uh say the standard color concrete for you know The Pedestrian way and then you have kind of borders and things that may be in in uh colored um right now the uh downtown area primarily uses a red concrete um there is a little bit of the colored Concrete in the parking lot areas um the uh two that have it are the a slot and the market Fest slot the third and banning so those two lots do have some of the elements in the uh back areas and um as we get the plans laid out we look at whether or not there's um opportunity to Accent different areas to with that colored concrete to more so designate where people should be walking um um and is utilized elsewhere in downtown so it make it more consistent so that's the other element um the last element that I'll bring in and is in the memo is parking lot signage one of the big things with the uh um current layout is we don't have a lot of signage that designates these are public parking you know how many stalls or that kind of stuff um but having not having gone through a full kind of branding study I'll call it of the downtown and what you know we might do for a full wayf finding and and you know what do we want this these signs to ultimately look like um fairly inexpensively we can do um you know I'll call it more of a street um sign style um fairly cheaply to to at least designate their public Lots um uh so they're easier to find um and then as we get into the street project um and it will include areas outside of that U the core area that we're reconstructing because obviously we want to get people all of our parking lots so it that uh marketing and branding and way finding would uh be a much broader topic we can always replace these signs at a later date once we settle in on that once we kind of design the street project and bring in an expert to really look at what that looks like so those are the three um public realm elements that we would uh at least to some extent bring in um obviously a lot more decisions as we get into the streetcape um out in the next phase of the the project so um again um and I'm going to go to the recommendation page here but again this Council requested staff bring back a proposal to potentially do a project you've had you know a month or so to think about this um obviously this is uses uh City funds we talked a lot about different options from a you know assessments or uh uh impact fees impact zones or parking uh um zones parking meters um different ways to fund these obviously some are after the fact funding mechanisms assessments or anything that we would charge directly to the uh Property Owners would be um something that would delay the project so um with that said um staff brought before Council um a resolution to consider that would order plans and specifications for the Downtown parking lot project in 2025 be happy to answer any questions thank you Mr Copy um I'm just going to Rattle off a couple clarifying things so first whether we approve this tonight or not these parking lots have run their useful life and are going to need to be repaired pretty quick here correct okay and if we don't move forward on doing the parking lots in 2025 we're going to delay the broader downtown reconstruction project Street reconstruction because this does have to happen first first in one year to then be followed by that broader construction project the following year for construction logistical purposes mayor members of the council um to get in and do the again i' stated it in my presentation but the two parking lots the um um the uh Market Fest lot and the um Armory lot are directly in that uh construction area the street constru construction area um the two lots to the north the one on Fifth and cook and Fifth and banning um could theoretically be phased before after um as we met with other communities that were doing these downtown projects um there's a 100 ways to phase this um the uh we could do you know like I said say you move forward with a spring project and you could do you know um uh two parking lots for for Market Fest you could you know we talk to the market Fest uh group and you know whether we shorten the market Fest by a few weeks you could theoretically do part of a street project um and do a two-year Street project um so there's a lot to go into this next street piece of it um once we start talking to the businesses and how we phase it um what kind of entrances how um you know what's really feasible to get constructed um in a uh time frame that we're not going to um dismantle the downtown and and incon inconvenience them too much um you know we can't tear up every street at every all at once because that's a lot of parking too you know it's parking lots are one thing but the on street parking is a vital piece of it when you consider markets or Washington Square Clark Avenue um that's a lot of parking as well so we'll have to phase that regardless um so I think if if we don't move forward with the project this year I think there are still um options to uh start that work in the spring of 26 and still complete the the downtown Street reconstruction project by the end of the construction season in 2026 uh mayor members of the council I will say that uh more um detailed look will need to be due I believe we can start it um the project area that we're talking about does extend I'll call it to the fringes of the um I'll call it the core business area um theoretically we could look at doing those at a different time those could be done in the spring as well and not affect I mean they're more residential areas but they're again those small Fringe areas that are just outside of the uh downtown Core Business area so there's a lot of looking that would need to be done as far as how that the perfect phasing of it but I still think it's end up being a two-year project okay so I appreciate all that detail I think what I'm getting at is it it makes it a lot more difficult if we don't get these if we don't get these parking lot parking lots done in 2025 it makes it a lot more difficult to move forward and finish the broader project in 2026 uh mayor members of the council it's still once we get into the details of it it still may be a two-year Street project even if we I okay not looking into that detail yet I can't guarantee that we can do it in one construction season okay all right so the funding mechanism the memo says that there really is no assessment mechanism available for public parking lots we've talked about that at work sessions so unlike when we do a street reconstruction project we take linear footage and you you have a formula for that there's not really a comparable mechanism for parking lots meaning how do you take one business one business's proximity to a parking lot one restaurant that's bigger than another a clothing shop a sewing shop a hairstyle and and deduce what their proportionate share of the assessment should be is that a fair characterization uh the formula definitely becomes more complex um based on proximity use um a lot of it has to do a zoning not necessarily current you know things can uh businesses can change you know hair stylist today can be a restaurant tomorrow depending on what's allowed through the zoning code so um it's really what's allow kind of the allowable uses versus what's so that's where the complexity comes into um coming up with that formula okay and the uh and I had mentioned it in in our work session as well as in memos the appraiser that the benefit appraiser that we work with with um has had a difficult time finding comparables to try to uh lay out we have done it I will characterize that we have done it in the past um in the downtown area they're um um they were petitioned for so it was a a different scenario than us initi initiating the project okay and finally if this resolution is approved tonight we're not approving any specific plans meaning authorizing cutting down the trees tonight we're going to move forward with a more drilled down version or is that what we're approving tonight is is cutting down the trees uh mayor members of the council as far as our design goes uh that's the direction that um we would move forward with a engineering design of that parking lot um would be to look at uh removing the trees and doing a parking lot layout that would um take the trees down and add the additional parking okay understood so that's feedback that we would like to receive tonight just regarding that specific lot okay yeah that's why I asked it wasn't clear whether we're doing that or whether there was going to be an ability to to tweak that down the road and I want to be clear it's it's not an easy decision I support taking the trees down up because I think the trees are bad I think we constantly have a conversation regarding parking and lack thereof and I've never supported putting a ramp in I think that doesn't make any sense but as we look for very very few opportunities to add some parking um this is a viable opportunity and I'm confident that we will replace those trees with albeit smaller trees in other areas of the community we've been a tree Community for many decades I think we'll continue to do that but this is just a practical decision in my mind to to take the trees down and I think we get 178 spots something like that I'm going to say 15 to 18 depending on again we'll have to look at the layout the circulation a lot but that was the initial look at from a I'll call the uh layout that we one of the options that we looked at and there'll be a median in that lot where we are going to add some a nice at least 10ft wide chunk of Green Space which presumably will be trees or other vegetation is that correct uh that is correct we would have in each of the parking lots we'd look at opportunities to replace trees or add trees where we can very good okay um I'm eager to get going on the broader downtown reconstruction project and uh I know that started really preco and then it got delayed with Co um we've been promising members of the downtown area um with some of the states of disrepair at least with regard to lighting that we're going to put a Band-Aid on it and we don't want to put a lot of money into fixing lights so that we're going to tear down um and we've been limping it along for a long time and I want to move forward with that and I see this as a necessary predicate to doing that hopefully in in 2026 Although our city engineer has amply disclaimed that it might not all get done in 2026 but it's not even going to start really in Earnest in 2026 if we don't move forward with the parking lots in 25 so for that reason I support this resolution uh and Council what we' like to do council member edberg thank you mayor um couple of technical questions and then a financial question so as you Mr Copy as you picture uh phasing the parking lots are you going to rip up all four at the same time or are you going to rip up one and then uh do them serially or uh what how much uh of those 200 and something um parking spaces are going to go be out of commission at one time uh May in the way that you think about it right now yeah uh mayor members of the council um yes I don't have a i no I don't have a great an exact answer for you right now um as we look at the extent of improvements um um the uh Armory lot and the fifth and cook lot obviously the two smaller of the or the smaller of the two lots um are going to be fairly um in andout um curb replacement in areas we're removing some of the medians um we can do those and not I'll call it take away all the parking all at once um the uh Ace slot and the market fast lot are the third and banning lot um like we will have significant impacts we will be taking out all the curb for the most part we will have uh uh quite a bit of loss parking um during that time frame obviously it's a um you know August September October you know three months to get it done um it's going to be um all hands on deck from whatever contractor bids it um but there will be we anticipate significant disruption okay I guess we're warned um in the Public Public realm I um did not disagree with any of the uh three items that you raised any Landscaping at all involved in parking lot renovation uh mayor members of the council um so if you look at each of the Lots I can go back to the maps so um the uh Fifth and cook lot is very small lot there's no medians there's no there's exist Boulevard trees so there's really nothing to do there um the um uh lot behind the Armory at uh third and cook uh there is some opportunity to uh replace a lot of trees that were planted there were evergreen trees there were all kinds of odd ones that were planted and and uh uh proximity to the the house that was removed uh we really didn't have anything planted in that Boulevard cuz they a hedge around the the property so there's some opportunities to add some additional perimeter trees as well as uh Rel landscape or re I think there's only one tree maybe that's worth saving in that median or current median so we definitely would look at uh we obviously have to uh balance that with where the lighting goes you can't do a tree to block lighting to so they will be um uh looked at as a package but we would look at areas to uh plant there um the um uh third Banning lot um the marest lot there's a couple of uh medians that will look at adding there's no trees there's nothing in them currently they've probably died or gotten taken out over over time but we'll again look at balancing that with the uh street light or the parking lot lighting um likewise with the a slot we'll look at um both the median as well as perimeter to add add or replace trees as needed if I may add Mr Copy um the study recommended at Lot number one I think a long Banning um kind of a short fence chopped up blocked up so I think that may be a piece of it too um depending on where funding comes that could be incorporated with this parking lot or the street project so it could be a combination of of both things depending on location that one's more likely to be part of the Street project just cuz we're going to have to be doing sidewalk removal replacement so um repair so it doesn't pay to do it and then tear it up a year later so in the spirit of um feedback um I'm skittish about uh putting trees in places where they do not have the chance to thrive um just to say that we have trees I liked the conversation at the work study particularly on in the uh uh more of the sidewalk areas and surrounding areas of lower statured um um Landscaping fencing fine lower uh lower statured whether it's hedging or I don't care what but it's uh Planters uh but I'm not a big fan of walking along and seeing where trees used to be that have since that did not have an opportunity to to thrive so that's feedback worth exactly what you're paying for it second thing is uh I like the idea I support the idea of downward facing lighting um I personally am not interested I I'm having trouble picturing how we do do Bronze in some places and green in somewhere else's now I'm not the guy to ask about what color to paint the walls but if we have an obvious mismatch somebody is going to come and say you have bread incoherence and I'd prefer to avoid that so my preference is to go with what we got unless we're planning on replacing everything and then it's brand coherence in a different space and that's okay too um I'd like to talk about um financials so um I am supportive of the idea I'm swayed by remember hughes's arguments at our work study about doing everything now um paying for it now not assessing we don't have time get underway do it um whether it's completely barebones whether there's a little bit of you know Landscaping whatever I I I'm I I don't have strong feelings on that um and using uh for the city to pay for the uh for all of the work now but what I haven't heard and what we haven't discussed is to make sure the next time this comes around there needs to be a a sinking fund created that um squirrels away the money so that the next Council who has to deal with this has got options that may include in uh some kind of assessment may include some kind of whatever I don't know but um I guess I I'm asking C Council me uh colleagues to say uh you know what we don't want to have to do this we don't want to have to do it this way again so my question to you Mr cowy if we the the one the okay I am not offended by the idea of pay to park I know that there are some mayor you've mentioned it and I respect that it's like okay changes character yeah well soda is coming up with 1.7 million multiplied by 20 years of inflation so I'm I see that as the most viable way of both metering the use of parking as well as garnering reasonable uh income that supports the future so if you're going to reconstruct what do you have to know now to install is there NE necessity for uh underground wiring that we need to uh prepare for is as we tear up reconstruct and and install um new parking uh parking lots is there other stuff and I'm not saying we can't take the other options that we discussed that we have to take those off the table table but if we are going to include um uh paid parking I'd like that incorporated into the design thinking so that we are being as intelligent as we can about that now we haven't made that decision we don't have to make that decision tonight I'm not saying that we have to hold up this discussion or this decision in order to have that discussion but I think we all were shaking our heads saying we don't want to have to do that or have our successors have to do that so Mr copy from your standpoint do we need to do anything in in in the design phase to prepare for uh uh pay for parking um mayor members of the council uh we would uh short answer is yes we want to look at potential locations um that is not something that um we've done we'd have to uh obviously get somebody in who's much more knowledgeable about the topic um based on looking at other areas um throughout this process uh typically the kiosks used today are and I think could be easily located you know on the street side and not um in the lot itself and not in the lot itself um from an infrastructure standpoint um and looking at some other stuff a lot of it is cellular based so it's you know if it's you're not putting individual meters at each spot these days you are putting in a kiosk and you put your number down or a lot of it's not even a number it's you are I'm parking in this lot and here's my my um here's my driver's or not my driver my vehicle plate vehicle plate there you go your plate number that's I I was trying to think of the same thing um you put your plate number in there and you you're good to go so it's likely an electrical line and a uh a lot of it are cellular like I said or they may need um you know fiber optic line so it's outside the parking lot per se hopefully okay thank you yeah just to pick up where CC member edberg left off so at the work session and I was traveling so I was listening to to it through the phone on my in an airport but um I was I was sort of negative on the uh pay to park idea um I've given it more thought I'm more open to it now I like the way you put it you know for future things and just doing a little bit of um research um just as I'm sitting here just other cities that are like us Hopkins has a number of surface Lots in there downtown some of them are free some of them are paid um Buck an hour you know they got limits on them um and then and then they do permits I think they're the no still water still water is another one obvious good good example still water has permits so there's a lot of there's a lot of ideas out there I mean you could you could this could be a way to sort of assess businesses uh their employees could pay for permits and then they could park in permitted spots uh the public could pay uh using a meter you know your phone or whatever or and then and by the way both these these examples I've given you street parking remains free so if you can find a spot on the street you're good if you want to get in one of the Lots got a permit pay a yearly fee a monthly fee a quarterly fee and then that's a way of getting the businesses to chip in a little bit um or or you know use the use the kiosk use your phone like in if you go to duth if you you know you around the different cities you just you just pop on their app and you you you park with their app it's pretty it's pretty easy um M of fact on my trip that I was just on I was in Boulder Colorado same thing you know pop on the app tell them what my life plate was I did it while I was in the coffee shop before they got there to ticket my car um uh so I I kind of warmed up to the idea of of of some payment cuz and and I we had some discussion at the other with the city manager about you know like it or not I don't know it's frustrating but we're unique wiper Lake's unique we got these Lots with no way to pay for them um so you know that's the history nothing we can do about about it it's a good thing that we have these free lots that somebody thought to set aside and and and construct and now it's time to to pay pay for them I'm satisfied with the money we've set aside for this purpose in our in our Improvement plan uh we should do it we should do it now we shouldn't wait um I'm I'm okay with the trees I want the spots so it's sad to take take those big trees out um I'm hoping to do I'm probably a little more than than Council edberg on replacement trees um um I might be willing to spend even more money on that as we do the the next year project um assuming there's some science out there about how to do it so they don't die and I think there is but it costs more you know so um I just think there's so many benefits to tree cover in an urban area you know um environmentally shade uh beautification there's a lot of benefits and I I just keep saying this you know that downtown is a huge asset for us and we shouldn't screw it up um we shouldn't necessarily pinch Pennies on this asset that that does make our city unique so I'm I want to move forward with the Lots as proposed with the funding source as proposed but I'm open to exploring some of this doesn't have to be next year we can you know we can work our way into it um but um we're not out of line with other cities um to do this so any other comments I would entertain a motion to approve the resolution ordering preparation and plans for specifications for the 2025 Downtown parking lot reconstruction project second motion a second any further discussion on this seeing none all those in favor say I I any opposed motion carries the resolution is passed thank you item n discussion nothing scheduled item 10 communication from the city manager Miss Crawford thank you mayor members of the council um we had two open houses for our zoning code update um and thank you to the White Bear press for w writing an article about that to help inform the community um we did see a a little small turnout a slight turnout I know a couple council members went to the evening one so thank you for doing that but all this is to say that we now have our online engagement open um and on our social medias and and there's the link right there so um uh our GIS technician and um RIT Consortium have set up where you can um go on our website and see your current zoning against what would be what's proposed so you can go in and look at any property um and and and see take a look at what what the potential um could be so I think that's really neat I want to encourage the community to to go and and look that up and then the real ID deadline is approaching again but this time it's really here um it's May 7th 2025 um just a reminder to everybody of our hours for the license bureau Monday and Wednesday Thursday Friday 8:30 to 5 and Tuesdays 8:30 to 6 um lines are shortest uh midweek midday um beginning of the month and the end of the month that tend to be our busiest um but come in and get your real ID before that deadline and and we are certainly seeing an uptick um in in people coming through the license bureau so just a couple reminders on that and that's what I have for tonight thank you Miss Crawford Council any questions for the city manager saying none I'd entertain a motion to adjourn second a motion a second all those in favor say I I we're adjourned for