to order. Um, clerk, please do a roll call. Council member Walsh here. >> Council member Gorola >> here. >> Council member West >> here. >> Council member Edber here. >> Council member Angstrand >> here. >> And Mayor Niklosski >> here. >> Okay. Please join me for the pledge of allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> Okay. Um item two, a approval of the minutes of the strategic planning meeting on April 15, 2026. I'd entertain a motion to approve. Second. >> Any discussion? All in favor? >> Okay. Any opposed? All right. It passes. Okay. Item 2B, approval of the minutes um of the four uh regular city council meeting on April 28th. Council member Edberg. >> Thank you, Madam Mayor. I would like to move approval of the minutes with one change. Uh change is on page four. Uh first paragraph at the top. um and should read in the 1 2 3 4 fifth line. Council member Edberg uh informed Miss Lewis that challenges challenging future state revenues may require the city to reduce future financial commitments to the market uh to marketfest. With that, I would move approval. >> Okay. >> All right. Any discussion? All in favor? >> I. >> Any opposed? All right. Motion passes. All right. Item three, the agenda. Does anyone have any changes to the agenda? Seeing none, I'd entertain a motion to adopt the agenda. So move. >> Second. >> Any discussion? All in favor? >> Any opposed? Okay, we have an agenda. Item four, the consent agenda. Does anyone have any changes to the consent agenda? Seeing none, I'd entertain a motion to approve the consent agenda. >> Move. Second. >> Okay. Do we have any further discussion? All those in favor? >> Any opposed? All right. The consent agenda passes. >> Can I read 5A? >> Yes. >> Yes. Okay. Uh 5A. Uh Miss Crawford. >> Uh thank you, Mayor Nolski. Um just before you read the proclamation, uh it's National Public Works Week next week. Um and I want to just give a little background on National Public Works Week. So um it recognizes the professionals who focus on infrastructure facilities and services that are that are of vital importance to sustainable and resilient communities and to the public health, high quality of life and well-being in our Wiperlake community. The city publicly recognizes its public works professionals uh for their service to the city of Wiper Lake and our great community. Um we will have a uh public works open house next week. I think it's at the I have a slide at the end, but now is a great time to talk about it. So, everybody, please come out to our third annual public works open house um down at our public works facility. And we have several public work public works employees here today um just to to hear the proclamation that the mayor will read. But um personally, thank you um to all of our public works staff. We really appreciate all that you do for us. Thank you, mayor. >> Thank you. And I'd also like to thank our public works department for all their hard work last Saturday or was it two Saturdays ago at our cleanup day. Uh they worked tirelessly from 6:30 in the morning until probably well after I left at 1. So anyway, thanks you guys. They're they're great. Okay. So whereas public works professionals focus on infrastructure, facilities and services that are vital importance to sustainable and resilient communities and to the public health, high quality of life and well-being of the people of the city of White Bear Lake. And whereas these infrastructure, facility and services could not be provided without the dedicated efforts of public work professionals who are engineers, managers and employees at all levels of government and the private sector who are responsible for rebuilding, improving and protecting our nation's transportation, water supply, water treatment, and solid waste systems, public buildings, and other structures and facilities essential for our citizens. And whereas it is in the public interest for citizens, civic leaders, and children in White Bear Lake to gain knowledge of and to maintain an ongoing interest and understanding of the importance of public works, public work programs and in their respective communities. And whereas the year 2026 marks the 66th annual National Public Work Works Week sponsored by the American Public Works Association. Now therefore, be it resolved that White Bear Lake City Council hereby designates the week of May 17th through the 23rd, 2026 as Public Works Week in White Bear Lake and urges citizens to join representatives of the American Public Works Association and government agencies in activities, events, and ceremonies designed to pay tribute to our public works professionals, engineers, managers, and employees, and to recognize the substantial contributions they make to protecting our health, safety, and advancing the quality of life for all. Thank you all. Do we want to give him an applause? Can you guys stand? Paul, thank you. All right. Item 5B, traffic signal replacement at Trunk Highway 61 and Second Street, project introduction. Mr. Kalpy. >> Uh thank you, mayor, members of the council. Uh tonight we have representatives from uh the Minnesota Department of Transportation. We'll go over a uh the uh plans for the uh Second Street and Highway 61 um signal replacement. Uh we we the city have two legs of that intersection. So uh when we get into these projects uh we um work with the uh mindot to uh do the design and coordination around uh those replacements as we are responsible for two of those legs of that intersection. Uh mindot having the other two u being highway 61 uh the city of white bear lake uh second street. Um if you recall this is the second one in we have one also being constructed or reconstructed this summer. Um that one is the highway 61 Lake Avenue and uh kind of road 96 will go in the uh summer of 2026 here. So uh this is the second one that we will have uh consecutively um partnering with Mindot to get those projects done. So I wanted to bring this before council. Um there's some changes to the intersection with uh PD improvements Buren Avenue. Um, and I just wanted to introduce it to council before we uh bring up a future cooperative agreement and some rightaway access agreement. So, um, I'm going to call up uh, John Chalk and Kent Bernard will do the speaking. Matthew Parn is also here. He's our area engineer. Um, kind of helps the uh, uh, projects in in this area. So, I'll call up John and Kent and they can have a brief presentation for us. >> All right. Thank you. All right. Good evening everyone. I'm John Chock. Uh like Paul said, I'm a design engineer with Mindot and the project manager for this project. Uh this occurs at two locations on 61, both 694 and Second Street. Um the main project that we're looking at here tonight is the intersection of Second Street. Uh like Paul alluded to. The main scope of work there is uh replacing the signal and with that we have various ADA improvements along with the uh closure of access to the intersection of Buren Street. Uh the rest of the work down at 694 is a little more complex and I'll kind of run through that, but we're replacing all the mainline pavement of 61, reconstructing the ramps, and also adding a second left turn lane for northbound trunk highway 61 to westbound 694. And again, here you can see Second Street a little more in depth from our layout. Uh like I said, we're replacing the aging signal system, doing ADA improvements, um removing the Buren Avenue access to at the intersection. Uh this is just causing confusion with the natural progression of the intersection. You know, folks are used to four legs and this kind of creates an unnatural fifth leg. Um and then the railroad will also be using this opportunity to update their signal system at the intersection. And we'll also be working with them to put in the concrete uh pads between their tracks that will then also go over the ADA uh segments. Uh kind of just a brief rundown of the staging plan at Second Street. Uh we are going to be doing a full closure of Second Street to the intersection. This will just really compact our timeline of construction from down to um four to six weeks uh versus we were anticipating 3 to four months just with having to do all the quadrants separately. Um a temporary signal will be provided still at the intersection so that we can maintain pedestrian crossings through uh the corridor. Uh and you can kind of see that with the green line. It's going to run basically right through the center of the intersection. There'll be a temporary flasher and all that. uh to stop traffic. And then there will also be potentially temporary lane closures uh that are needed for some of the ADA improvements as we redo the curb lines on 61 and at all the quadrant radi uh detour routes for Second Street. While that is closed off, the west side is pretty straightforward. We're going to be utilizing Fourth Street to Bald Eagle for both directions. Um the east side gets a little more complicated. There is a city project that we're aware of that's also going to be occurring in the summer of 2027. Um we're still it sounds like that's still in progress. So we're waiting to hear the full details on that and you know we'll just have to coordinate with the city of White Bear Lake to come up with the best routes uh for both projects to get folks uh to the east side. Um 694 is a little more complex. Uh we'll be closing the north section of 694 in the ramps to and from or we'll be closing the north section of 61 and the ramps to and from 694 uh from Berkeley down to just north of the uh eastbound 694 ramps for the first phase and detours will utilize um White Bear Avenue and County Road E. And on the west side, they'll utilize Kai Road to 35E and back down to 694. Uh stage two will be a full closure of the southern portion of the project as well as the underbridge section uh and the ramps to and from eastbound 694. detour routes will be fairly similar where we'll rotate folks from trunk highway 36 I35E and then to county road E and then conversely uh basically just a reverse of the northbound detour um for that and then I'll let Kent Barard talk about our communications plan for the project. >> Thank you, John. Uh good evening. We have already started some outreach to the businesses that are down on the south end south of 694. I was really surprised when I was looking at the map to see how many car dealers there are between Highway 36 and up into White Bear Lake. So, we did start with them because they're going to have a lot of impacts to traffic moving in and out of their places. We do plan to continue that outreach with the businesses up at Second Street and that'll be probably later this summer, early fall. We'll also be going out and speaking to groups as they want us to come out and present this information. Um project specific website uh is being created and we want to make sure that people sign up for our email updates because that's going to be a very important way for people to keep up with what's going on with this project with the detours and the changing traffic patterns next year. Uh follow us on Facebook, like us on Facebook even if you really don't like us. I mean, we're used to it. Uh, you should also follow us on Twitter. We do use Twitter fairly regularly for short-term notices, and if something comes up and they decide they're going to close a ramp and they have to for emergency reasons or anything, we do send out things on on I still call it Twitter. I'm sorry, X. We do tweet on X. Um, and we will use that, like I said, for last minute changes out there. Also, very important website. Uh, I was involved when they first came out with 511 and it really was not very good, but over the years it has improved immensely. Uh, I keep track of what's going on there and if I see a mistake, I am able to change the entries on there, too. So, follow 511. That'll let you know what's going on. if there's a crash in the work zone or there's any sort of emergency repairs. And our 511 system works for the entire state. And Wisconsin has it and I believe Illinois has it and several area states do too. Um our main website, mindot.gov. Uh you can go there, you can get answers to almost any transportation question you have as long as it's state related. And uh all of our various uh departments have websites too like our traffic signals and our maintenance and our construction. Uh so go ahead and go there and then please get connected with us because we will be able to answer your questions and you can reach out to me. My name is going to be on that website and I'm more than happy to answer questions or answer emails, whatever you might have. Does anybody have any questions for John or me? Yes. I have a question for John. Go ahead. >> Can you um talk about the light cycle and how what what you're going to do with the with the light? Are you that far ahead on like the turn signal and >> that one? I'll have to ask our signals group. I'm >> roadway design solely, so the signals designer would have more input on that. Are you looking for the temporary signal more so or just the new signal type? >> No, the new signal. I'm just kind of wondering um >> if the left turn is going to improve. I just sat there. >> Yeah. >> Yes. Nope. I can relay that question and see what they have to say. >> Yeah. You can use some lived experience. It's actually faster to travel from Second Street up to Fourth Street, wait at the light, take a left, come back all the way to City Hall than it takes to sit in the lane, the turn lane on Second, which does not have a flashing yellow. >> Oh, sure. Yep. Yep. I can relay that question. So, see if they have any plans. >> I encourage it to be more than a question, >> like a significant request. >> Sure. Yep. >> Thank you. wondering if um if there will be this is also a signal thing. >> Sure. >> If if there will be any delay for so when a person pushes the walk light if there'll be a little bit of a delay so that the walk light can people can start walking before the right-hand turner's turn or the left-hand turner's turn uh with their flashing yellow light. They can clear that before. Is is that something that's doable? >> Don't quote me on this, but I believe that is kind of our standard now. But I will ask the traffic folks to uh confirm that. >> Right. Okay. Great. And that was all mine. Does anybody else have any questions? Council member Edberg. >> Thank you, Madame Mayor. Um maybe for Mr. Bernard. I'm not sure, but um how many folks are affected by the closure of Buren? Um I can appreciate why that's being done. I'm not wasn't aware of it until we had the presentation. How many folks, businesses or homeowners are affected by that closure? >> We might have turn counts on that, but I have to talk to traffic. I know we they were included in the westbound, eastbound, second street movements originally, but I'll have to dig into that date a little more and see if we can get exact numbers for that fifth leg. >> Okay. Thank you, >> Council Member Garola. Yeah, I just have two questions. Um, you said on Second Street with the full lane closure, did you say six weeks or four to six week that it would be quicker with the more significant? >> Yeah. >> If it wasn't, if you weren't doing that, how long would it take? >> We were thinking at least double the time, 3 to four months, because then you'd have to close each quadrant one at a time, still do all the temporary lane closures or reduce lanes on Second Street as you do those curb lines and ADA work. And then my other question was just wondering how much say when you are considering detours, how much say do our city engineers get? Is it usually, oh, we've already sorted this out too late or are you pretty? >> Nope. We've been coordinating with Paul and Nate um and we've been relaying comments back and forth and then our traffic I mean I we'll have to have some sort of detour agreement with you. So um it'll be a pretty good amount of say. Yep. >> All right. And then I do have the schedule if you want me to go through that. Yes. Or if there's more questions on the project itself. >> Yes. Council member Ed. >> Mayor, mayor, members of the council, I had one thing. Um, as the detour, one of the things that we did uh highly consider on the west side and work with our public safety, both police and fire. Um, as far as obviously that will cut clo cut access off to, you know, police and fire there. Um we did have the a very similar closure when we did the public safety building um for about the same amount of time. Um they were able to work through it quite well. Um uh didn't really affect things too bad. Um so we did work with those folks to uh make sure that uh that was more acceptable than than the longer um you know multi-stage closure. So >> yeah, thanks Paul. That was a big point that we've been trying to hammer out since probably six months ago. So >> Okay. Thank you, Council Member Edberg. >> Thank you, mayor. Um perhaps this is for um our city engineer, perhaps for Mandata. I'm not sure which. It's about the uh turn lane on Lake and 61. We had a number of conversations. What's the current status on the timing, the amount of time being allowed for, particularly left-hand turns from Lake onto southbound 61? Has that been resolved or is that still up in the air pending uh installation this summer? >> Uh mayor, members of the council, um I don't have the exact timing of it. I know that's something in progress. The actual construction of the signal um with the modern cabinet and and controls allows those adjustments. So um they'll I know Second Street is a quite old signal. You asked about the flashing yellow arrows, things like that. you need to have upgraded equipment cabinets, which that does not have. So once they're interconnected and they can actually all play together, um some of that timing will be adjusted. Um so it's it's not a one and done. You know, it has to be done when the signal is put in. That can be adjusted as uh traffic flow is watched. So as as that project is complete, as Second Street is completed in 27, um watch for those kind of things. we pass those kind of uh complaints on the mind and they make adjustments as needed. So, >> well, I just want to thank you. I just wanted to emphasize that >> um the response that we've historically received is that either the technology doesn't allow us to >> adjust and so we can't change traffic stacking up on lake waiting to make a left-hand turn can't adjust etc etc. um now that that's adjustable. Awesome. Thank you. But um that 61 is still a state highway. So you guys are the ones that we have to y >> cajul uh entreat request. Just wanted you to hear directly. That's an issue in our community is those turn signs. So if they they're being addressed, that's good. Thank you. >> Good to know. Yeah. I'll relay those comments as well to our traffic group and just make sure they're aware of them as well. >> Yeah. Because coming down lake sometimes you only get like 5 seconds. I mean it's and the light turns and it seems like it's different all different times a day and sometime Yeah. It's very >> Yeah. >> It's I've gotten lots of calls and emails on that. >> Okay. No, good to know. Thank you. >> Um and while I have you here, I'm I'm wondering um about the painting of the of on Fourth Street, the line um and if you're going to have those done consistently along 61. So we don't have stop line the the big thick do you call them stop lines >> stop bars. >> The stop bars. >> Yeah the stop bars before the crosswalks and um so what's happens is people come way up to the um crosswalk and sometimes cover the crosswalk and also it makes it really dangerous for people walking across when the righthand turners don't they don't even hesitate or there's a big truck there and they come right there. So, I'm wondering if we can get those crossarss in all our intersections set pretty far as as far as you can away from the crosswalk because that's one of our biggest concerns in our community is safety for people crossing that street, especially at fourth, but everywhere. >> Yeah, I will again that'll be for our traffic group. Um, pavement markings is under their category. So, I'll bring that to them as well and see I'll also look at our plans and see what our plan is for that. Um, and then if there's any other intersections they plan to do in the near future. >> Okay. Thank you. Anyone else? No. Okay. Thanks so much. Thanks for coming. >> Go over the schedule quick just so everyone's aware of that. Um, the letting date for this project is November 18th of this year. Um, put that in there wrong. They moved it up a week. Um, we're almost done with the final design plans. Those will be going down to our C off CO office uh at the end of this month. And then the construction dates, I don't have hard dates yet, but we do anticipate starting like tree clearing um operations over the winter of 2627 and then jumping right into construction spring 2027 with completion of the entire project by fall 2027. Um that being said, we also don't have the dates locked in yet for when the specific work will occur at Second Street. Um but more to come with that as we get our special provisions drawn up and uh cooperative agreement uh finalized. >> All right. >> But I believe was >> uh so mayor members of the council just uh next steps from a city midnot standpoint would be to work through the cooperative agreement. Um there's a rightway access agreement as they realign the sidewalk um kind of on the city hall corner of city hall property there um to get the pet alignment to um uh meet ADA requirements um just a kind of a rightaway permit that we issue between the agencies. So, those uh two documents will be coming toward to council just as a heads up. Uh some uh uh near future meetings, probably the rightway permit first and then followed by the cooperative agreement later this summer. So, >> Okay. Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Item 5C, the 2025 financial audit. Miss Kins, >> mayor and members of the council, tonight we have Brad Faltoise from ABDO with us. He will present the results of the 1231 2025 year end audit. Um he will have he'll take questions and then once the council um finishes that then there's a resolution to be adopted to accept the financial statements. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Well, thank you for having me. Honorable Ro council member council members I think my presentation will be up in a second >> just click next >> oh there it is just like that okay so um so what we'll go through today is I'll first go through the audit results um just overall opinions those types of things um then we'll go through each of the different funds general fund results your other governmental fund results your special revenue capital projects debt service funds and then go through your enterprise funds and then at the end. We have some charts that compare your city to other cities of similar size um throughout the state of Minnesota as well as cities in um in the county. So, jump right into it. Um first, we'll talk about uh we are issued a we have issued an unmodified or a clean opinion on your financial statement. So, that's the opinion you're looking for when you have a financial statement audit performed. Um so to arrive at that opinion, we'll look at we'll identify different areas that are um potentially higher risk, higher dollar amounts, make sure we verify those some of a lot of that state that money that comes in from the state with the the state sends us a report showing all the money they sent you. We make sure that was deposited, put in the right the right areas within the within the financial statements. Look at uh a lot of the tax revenues that are coming from the county. Make sure those were deposited accurately. Um and then any other higher risk areas like utility receipts, you have a lot of transactions in utilities. So we take a look additional little bit extra look at those as well. So I'd allow that to arrive at our opinion and um get this unmodified opinion. So we feel everything in the financial statements is materially accurate and accordance with generally accepted accounting principles. The state auditor also requires us to um go through a series of checklists related to state statutes that they want want us to test as part of our financial statement audit. So then we issue a a uh compliance report on those um checklists that we go through and we have no non-comp we didn't um find any non-compliance with what we tested this year either. So clean clean reports on both of those. That's good. Any questions on the process or anything like that? Going into the results. So here's a general fund. Um you do have a policy which is in that that black shaded bar at the bottom. your policy is to have a fund balance reserve at the end of the year of 35 to 50% of the following year's budget. So that's what that black bar is and the the red bar or the the one that's really close to it. I think I would say it's red um is where your fund balance ended up. So you're staying right at the top end of that 35 to 50%. So staying very consistent each year. You can see how your budget that top yellow line has increased over the years. So you have about a 21.5 million budget for 2026 and your fund balance reserves at the end of the year 48.9%. So it's definitely staying um within your range and at the top end of that range. So good results there. This report shows your budget to actual report for your general fund. So revenues budgeted just under 19 million. Um actuals came in about the same within $29,000 of what you actually budgeted. So.1% um variance from your budget. Expenditures were about 2% variance from your budget um with original and final. So those came in right as you expected for the year. Um you did have transfers in of about $900,000 to then finish the year with an increase of fund balance of about $470,000 which with increase in budgets, you're going to need those increases in fund balance each year to maintain that um 35 to 50% of reserves. uh general fund. This is where your revenues are coming from to support your general fund expenditures. Um majority is taxes and assessments. You see a jump in uh taxes and assessments from the previous year. You did have an increase in your levy um from 24 to 25. So that's accounts for that increase. All the other areas there charges for service um intergovernmental. That intergovernmental includes state revenues, county revenues, and then anything other locally that you would receive. Um and then the other portion there. So majority of the support comes from your taxes and assessments in the general fund. Expenditures, same type of cate same thing just broken down by department here or function. Public safety is your biggest uh department or function that you're spending. Um biggest increases in there were uh police and ambulance. Police had about a $650,000 increase. Um uh and then ambulance had $250,000 from the previous year. So most of that was in salaries or the majority of that was in salaries. Then we got the special revenue funds. So the special revenue funds are funds that are set up where you either have a committed or a restricted revenue source. And that's what kind of defines them as special revenue funds. They have uh revenues that are um restricted or committed for a specific purpose. So we have funds here. And what we're looking for here is are are you collecting enough revenue to support your your funds. So that last column you can show the increases and decreases from the previous year. Economic development had a $720,000 decrease in fund balance during the year had um some capital expenditures that made up the majority of that that decrease. Then the housing fund, the 2025 housing fund that you received the the um affordable housing aid this year that you put in that fund and have not spent it yet. So that's the majority of that. Uh special ro funds. This is kind of where the the balances lie. You got restricted. That's the jump in that restricted or that based on the the axis there. It looks it's a it's a little bit of a jump, but that's the the public housing aid that came in um in restricted. The rest of your re or your uh funds are committed or assigned. Um capital project funds. These are capital project funds you have outstanding. um six of them. So again here are you able to support the different projects you have going on. So we look at the increases and decreases in fund balance at year end overall had a of all your capital projects had a $513,000 increase in your reserves in your capital projects funds. Not a lot of fluctuation in in these funds this year. Um as far as fund balance stayed fairly consistent with the previous year. Overall had about a 2.7% increase in overall fund balance in your project funds. And the project funds, same thing here. Restricted, committed, assigned. Majority of your um reserves here are committed. And committed, I'll just define that. That is where council passes by resolution. You're committing these funds for a specific purpose. Um and if if the city wanted to spend those money as an those dollars on something else, council would have to do an equal resolution to release those funds to for a different purpose. Assigned is more where management assigns it for a purpose where council doesn't really have any um action that they need to do to assign those dollars. Um debt service funds. Um so a little bit smaller here, but you do have these are all your debt service funds you have outstanding. Um just to point out, you do have because on the next slide we show the um the debt service requirements by year for the next 10 years. just under three and a half million dollars each year for um your debt service requirements. But if we look at this chart again, the first one to come off, the first one of these bonds to be paid off is in 2028. Then you have a kind of about a almost a 10-year gap there. I think a nine-year gap before the next one falls off. So, um then your last one here that goes out is 2024 or 44. So, with these again, we're just looking to make sure that cash balance is staying positive in each of these funds. you have reserves that you're um be able to support your your debt service funds and I don't see an issue there. Okay. And then here again is that chart for the debt service requirements. We get into your enterprise funds first with the water fund. Um this is just this chart here shows just your operating receipts compared to your operating dispersement. So just on a cash basis are and what we look for here is are your receipts able to support both your operating dispersements plus your debt service requirements. So water fund um is doing well or has been doing well with the increase in rates the last couple years. You can see how the the the receipts have increased um and you're covering your your operating dispersements and debt. Um, again looking at cash, these are your cash balances, unrestricted cash balances by year. You can see it's steadily increased over the years. We do have a black line in the middle is just showing what you um we always recommend a 50% reserve in your water and sewer funds just to have dollars on hand just in case something happens that you'd be able to support still support your operations on a monthly basis. So that's where that line is. Anything really above that line um would be potentially used for capital or can be available for capital. Same thing with the sewer. Um sewer again this receipts have been meeting the dispersements. You don't have any debt service requirements in the sewer fund but um your increase or your receipts have been supporting uh your dispersements approximately the same amount each year. Then again with your increase in cash each year and your um your cash balance, you can see your um cash balance has steadily been increasing. Again, anything above that black line potentially is available for um capital or to support projects or those types of things. License bureau, um same thing here. Um license bureau for the most part has been breaking even. you've been able to transfer about I think last year you transferred about $70,000 um out of this fund to support other city functions. So um and you still had a you had that in or receipts over dispersements there. And with your cash balances, you can see your cash balance, we do have that 25% uh reserve there, that line. Um but your cash balances have been holding steady with the slight increases the last couple years. Nothing to be too alarmed with here necessarily. Um, since you are maintaining your cash, we tend to not like to see is a a gradual decrease in your cash from year to year and we're not seeing that with the license bureau. So, overall cash investments analysis, this takes a look at all of your cash within the city. Um, you can see it's been around that 54,000 56,000 this year increased slightly. Um overall your mix between the different type what what the cash is being used for as far as capital funds, special revenue, debt, enterprise has stayed pretty consistent over the last few years. I think um just looking at this your enterprise funds cash balances have increased slightly. Your capital funds cash balances increased slightly. Um those probably the major or major differences there. Now we get into kind of the comparisons um where you kind of sit relatively with your tax rates, with your debt, those types of things um with other communities or comparison communities. So we have listed here class two cities. Class two cities are cities um with populations between 20 and 100,000 in population. We have other cities uh in Ramsey County. These would be all cities that are not reporting on like a cash basis. So this this fairly pretty much excludes any really small cities. Um then we we broke out a separate uh peer group for 20 to 30,000 population cities throughout the state. And then we the city of White Bear Lake is the line in each one of these. So you can see your tax rates um are lower than all of your peer groups here with um the closest one would be other cities in Ramsey County have um are would be the closest ones to you in tax rate. So tax rates are lower than peers. Um we also added this chart this year kind of the tax rate mix. I think you probably see this as part of your budget process as well, but um this is what the other tax rates are that um jurisdictions that are taxing your citizens. Um so your tax rates at 30.4%, county rates at 47%, school is um 35%. So what what this doesn't show this isn't 30% of all the tax. This isn't 30% of the taxes the residents pay. This is their tax rate that the city is charging. So that 30% is really 25% of um all the taxes that a resident pays a White Bear Lake resident pays into the county. They're paying about 25% of it to the city. Uh property taxes per capita. So this is just taking the total property tax collected last property taxes collected last year and divided by the population. You can see again here you are lower than all of your peers in that category. Here's where you change though. Long-term debt per capita. So your long-term debt has um in the last four years have has increased. you were below the per capita um long-term debt per capita, but as you've been issuing bonds over or debt over the last um few years, you've gone above that. The state um we don't have the 2024 data um yet for their peers, the state doesn't have that compiled um as as of yet. So, we just have through 23. But um given the kind of the general um trajectory of the peer groups, they probably are kind of close to where you are right now as far as once we get that data. Um I don't know for sure, but just following the trend. It looks like you're you're probably right in line with your peers at least with 20 to 30,000 population cities throughout the state. And I will get into how that kind of how that compares to your tax rates in a bit. But um this next slide is the debt service expenditure. So consistent with the previous slide, you are um higher than your peer groups and how much you're spending uh per on a as a percent of your current expenditures. So um taking a look at all your expenditures are current and debt service, you're spending a higher percentage in debt than your peers. So, how does that happen? How does that correlate to a lower tax rate? Um, I think this chart kind of helps explain that, too. Your what you're spending on a a current expenditures per capita basis, just on general operation type expenditures, you're quite a bit less than your peer groups in this category. So, what you're not spending in your kind of just general operations type stuff, you're spending more in your debt service expenditures to support different projects throughout the city and improvements that are going on in the city. So, but even with this and with the the debt, you still currently are at a lower tax rate um than your peers. So, with that, that is the wonderful crew that helped do the audit and I will take any questions. >> All right. Does anybody have any questions? >> Council member Edberg. >> Thank you, Madam Mayor. Good evening, Mr. Falsac. Good to see you again. >> Nice to see you. >> Um, I do have some questions and it's in your charts. >> Perfect. >> The chart rate uh key performance indicators tax rates. Could you explain the percentages are ratios of what? What? What gives us? It's a ratio of >> the tax rate. >> Yeah. >> How you come up with the tax rate? >> Yeah. >> Okay. It's kind of it's kind of complicated, but I'll try to u break it down fairly quickly. Um, so based on your your tax base, the county will calculate a tax capacity for tax capacity in the city. So then they then they take your tax levy. It's a I believe it's a tax I might get it backwards. Tax capacity by your tax rate gives you tax capacity divided by your tax levy gives you your tax rate. So that's the percentage that a resident or any property is going to be charged based on their property the tax capacity of their property value. So if you have a make like I said you have a $200,000 home residential home their tax capacity is 1% of that value. So you can say 2,000 times 30% would be their taxes is kind of how it comes out. >> Okay. >> Roughly. >> So what's the rel um What what's the relevance of this particular statistic? I think I know, but I'd like to hear you tell me >> relevance of of which are taxes >> and our and the comparison to other uh the other neighboring and and yep >> relevant communities. >> If we look at other 20 to 30,000 population cities across the state, a $200,000 home multiplied by 1% tax capacity, $2,000, they'd be charged 43%. You take 2,000 times 43% to come up with what they're going to pay for taxes. They're there. You're charging you're getting charged 30% of that 2,000. Your residents are 30% of that 2,000 where another pop another community would be charging 43% of that 2,000 for that property tax. >> So, a comparable home in another community would be paying a higher level of uh property tax compared to that same valued home located in the city of White Bake. >> Correct. All right. Thank you. Um, could we go to the long-term debt per capita chart? And recognizing we we don't have all the data that we that we would want uh to use, um, looking at the city of White Bear Lake for the last four years, the the black line goes up and stays high, but the dollars per uh down in the uh the bottom line are relatively stable. Is there any source of concern that you would uh um highlight for us um as policy makers about the our relative expenditure of capital you know taking on debt um compared to >> what what do you say the bottom line looks fairly consist comparable >> 104410 1466 1490 >> not massive changes >> uh increases but not massive changes considering we just built a 15 million dollar um uh public safety building. We bonded for uh street uh street construction and and uh so forth. We've taken on and issued debt >> uh at uh a hefty level in the last few years. >> Previously, we mostly paid cash or a higher percentage of cash. Um, to me looking at those dollars per capita, it's stable, affordable, reasonable, maybe even predictable. >> Am I reasonable? Is that a reasonable conclusion or how would you interpret that uh that relatively flat dollars of debt per capita? >> Um, current from 2023 to now, it's been flat. Um, from 21 to 23, it obviously doubled. So if that's if $600 is a big number, it's going to be big to some people. It may not be big to others. So it's kind of how you want to interpret it in personally, I guess. Um I could I mean we could certainly make the the y axis bigger and it would flatten the line out too. So it's kind of it looks big. It looks like a big increase probably because the axis is somewhat narrowed too. Mhm. >> So, but over the last few years, it's fairly I mean, you can see it's been fairly flattened out. >> Okay. >> Let me shift gears. >> Yep. >> So, you your firm audits a number of other municipalities. Um both our size, probably a bunch of them smaller, I don't know, maybe some bigger. Um I'm interested in your perceptions about our revenue mix. Um we don't we don't get very fancy in how many different sources of revenue. That's my opinion. Sure. >> Um what's your take on um the mix of revenues that we make use of compared to some of our peers in the metro area? We'll we'll stay with that. >> Yeah. I don't think the mix is all that different. There's some metro cities that are have um implemented local option sales tax. Yeah. Um that's something that I don't believe you've talked maybe even talked about or approached yet. Um so I mean there's that and they um there's a process to go about getting that implemented and there's probably some studies that need whether it's worth it or not too but um so there's that out there that some communities are working with. Um you do already a lot of times when I get a question are there other revenue sources? I'll talk about franchise tax franchise fees and those types of things which you have. Um, but I think some of the other communities are collecting quite a bit more. So maybe yeah, more aggressive. So it might be a good idea to take a look at some of those other communities and see what they're charging compared relative to what you guys are charging and is there some options there. I mean obviously those will get funneled back to the the residents too, but it's a different source. The reason I'm asking, >> I anticipate that uh the state is going to have challenges from a fiscal standpoint in the next one to four years, one to three years. Um that will translate into actions that they'll have to decide whether they're going to keep local government aid at similar levels. We have an exposure there. >> It's about 1 point something million. >> Yeah. So, um, if that goes down, we either have to reduce services, increase local taxes, or find other sources of revenue. And before it gets to be a an emergency, I'm thinking we would be wise to at least think about what are other communities doing, what are other options that are available to us um to uh maintain revenues in the event of state reductions. >> Yep. >> We've had those. That's been a lived experience a couple of times in my tenure. Not fun. >> We managed to survive. Do you have any suggestions for us on how to think about that conversation? >> Um I know some communities have tried to because of what happened in the past in the LGA um have tried to wean themselves off of relying on it. So I know you have a a long range plan that you work with and update on annual basis. So that might be something where you're currently getting 1.7 or whatever that is and try to even though you potentially project it out that you're going to get it, maybe try to wean yourself off and not use it for general ongoing expenditures. Use it for cap just move it into the capital fund and try to slowly maybe just move it 100% into capital and not use it for general operations and try to build that up. So then if you do get a a ch a time where they pull back or cut it, um it's not going to fit. You may have to cut a capital project or a purchase of some nature like that, but not affect your general day-to-day operations. >> Anything else? >> I think so. >> Okay. >> Oh, I have some other comments, but I >> Okay. Does anyone else have any questions? If I could council >> here's my summary and I' I'd welcome your feedback >> based on the audit. We have an unmodified opinion. So if I were Shannon Granholm writing an article about this here are the six points that that come to me about is White Bear Lake the city White Bear Lake managing its resources responsibly. >> So number one we have an unmodified opinion meeting. Our processes are in good order. You found no non-compliance, etc. So, our processes are in reasonably good shape. The the numbers that we present to the public fairly and reasonably represent our actual condition. >> Correct. >> Our year-end revenue and expenditures are within reasonable variations. We make projections. Yes, the world happens. We make uh decisions during a year but at the end of the year our projections are reasonably accurate compared to from the beginning of the year to the close of the books. >> Yep. We have we are in compliance with state statutes and in compliance with the auditor's recommendations for fund balance uh levels and so we are maintaining responsible levels of resource for managing and running the city and being prepared for um unforeseen uh activity. >> Yep. the taxes that we assess to our um to our taxpayers, our local taxpayers are lower than uh what a comparable uh comparable taxpayer would pay in other of our comparable cities, whether that's uh in the metro uh cities of the same size, etc. We are below less than uh the norm in each of those situations. >> Correct. And then not included in your presentation but uh in our packet we have external validation from the uh government finance officers association for uh certificate of excellence for our processes in budgeting and reporting. And you may or may not have known this but we got a double A+ rating from Moody's on our most recent bond rating. That's a continuation. That wasn't a one time. That's been a continuation for those in the audience. AA plus is one notch below the gold standard of >> AAA. >> All of those things are external validations of the work that we do. >> Correct. >> Is are my are my assumption or my conclusions reasonable? >> Are all correct? Yep. >> All right. Thank you very much. >> Yeah. >> Thank you. Okay. Council member Gerola. >> Yeah. I just had a quick clarifying question um about what you said about the property taxes and long-term debt. So, you said our long-term debt above our peers. >> Yes, we built a new fire station, those things. And, you know, public safety building, others have done that, too. But your reasoning, just so I'm understanding, was because our property taxes are lower than our peers, our long-term debt because we have to take out more debt to fill those. Is that what you were saying, or am I not understanding? >> No, your your long-term debt is higher. Let's see. your long-term debts higher than your peers or maybe right at your peers. So, and how you pay the debt back typically is tax levby or assessments. So, how how is your long-term debt higher at your peers, but your tax levies are lower is the is the question. And what I was saying is because your general current expenditures to just fund operations, um you're not collecting as much. Those are less. So, you can spend you're spending less on the just current general operations, more on the debt. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Any further questions? >> Seeing none. Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you. And thank thanks Finance too. Appreciate all the help. >> Thank you, >> mayor. Just before you take a vote, I want to thank Abdo. Thank you for con uh conducting our audit. It's always a pleasure to work with you. But a special thank you to our finance staff um director Kinsmodder and assistant finance director Hord um for coming back so we can continue what we're doing um but for just doing a great job. We said it when we issued debt a couple meetings ago, but uh this really showcases a a good another really good year of solid solid financial management. Um, and that really does extend to our department heads as well, um, who pay very close attention to to their department budgets. It really does take a village, um, to to make sure that our finances are running smoothly in addition to our finance department. And, um, I couldn't be, you know, more proud for to be the city manager here um, in the way that we do continue to manage our finances very strongly. So, thank you to everybody. >> Thank you to everybody. >> Okay. Um, is there a motion to accept the resolution of the 2025 annual comprehensive financial report as presented? >> Second. >> Any further discussion? All in favor? >> Any opposed? Okay, the resolution passes. Okay. Um 5D, public works and engineering departments by annual report. Mr. Coffee, >> uh mayor, members of the council, thank you so much. Um tonight, like you said, we will have our bianual report. Um this period or why we chose this period or kind of the periods to to do public works is it covers our winter months. So generally November through April. um um kind of an awkward months or times. You know, most people go, you know, annually or, you know, um you know, 6 months at a time, but this happens to cover our our winter months perfectly and then our next report will cover kind of the summer months. Uh completely different operations. So, um we're uh um yeah, ready to go. Uh from a staffing standpoint, um uh we've been very um stable. Um we have I think since I've been doing these reports, we've had a couple of new hires, uh new positions added. Um this is the first time I think I've presented to council since I've been doing these reports where we've had somebody leave. Um in this case, we have in uh kind of in the lower right hand corner of the screen, we have our mechanic spot open. Um, two weeks ago we had our lead mechanic spot open. So, uh, fortunately we had, uh, two very good mechanics, um, with the departure of our lead mechanic. I went through a, uh, process and, um, and, uh, promoted our mechanic to the to the lead mechanic. Uh, so we'll be, uh, going out for a, uh, mechanic position here shortly. That ad should be going out soon. um it'll be internally posted and then go out um to the uh the rest of the world. Um and hopefully we get a uh some good candidates. So if you know anybody or anybody out there listening uh we'd love to uh invite you to interview or uh apply and and uh maybe find a good mechanic here. Um so that's kind of the story of our staffing. Um just kind of recap, we have besides myself, we have five um um people in the engineering side and then 22 people in the public works side. Two of those being more the office staff, our admin assistant and our public works superintendent. Uh the other 20 folks are um water, sewer, parks, facilities, streets, and our uh facility or our fleet. So, uh, majority of those are out, um, boots on the ground, uh, getting the work done that, um, uh, as mentioned in the proclamation and and, uh, Miss Crawford's introduction to public works week. Um, so here we go is Danny Tyson, who is here tonight. Um, he was, uh, promoted from mechanic to lead mechanic. So, uh, looking forward to, uh, Danny's leadership. Uh, great experience here in the community, um, as well as the city. So, uh, looking forward to his leadership here at public works. Um, I'll jump right into fleet division. Um, and then a few statistics to follow here, but um, so most of what the, uh, fleet services does is the preventive maintenance and then repairs. So, um, preventive maintenance are the oil changes, filter changes, tire rotations, that kind of thing. And then once we get into the more major repairs, it's, you know, an alternator went out, steering went out, um need to do brakes, anything that requires kind of the, you know, the non-jiffy lube type activity. So, um, we also do the our own DOT inspections, meaning that we inspect each of our heavy vehicles to make sure that they meet DOT requirements before we send them on the road. Our bigger trucks such as the VC truck or um big mainline plow trucks, things like that. Um they also uh spend a lot of time coordinating outsource repairs. So uh tire work we don't do in-house. Um there's all kinds of specialized equipment. Um body work, uh warranty work, recalls, things like that. Uh you'd be amazed at how much uh um time is spent uh tracking down warranty and recall um with the dealerships. um just the technology in our newer vehicles is uh uh staggering and and obviously uh we get a lot of those kind of recalls and and warranty work and following up with those dealerships to get that work done. Um and then Fleet has always been not that our whole public works isn't but Fleet has uh traditionally really jumped on some unique projects. Um they did um squad car um outfitting and coordination with um those vendors. uh we do most of our outfitting of our you know in this case our public works uh trucks as they come in we put the graphics on the light bars the plows the all that kind of stuff. So um that's a major um thing that our fleet maintenance division does. Uh this year they coordinated generator maintenance contracts. We're upgrading uh most of our generators to uh uh natural gas uh so that we're not trading out diesel. the diesel will gel up issues in the winter time obviously uh in in Minnesota with the cold temperature. So as we've had the opportunity to upgrade our generators we've gone to natural gas much more efficient cleaner but uh just a little bit different operations um so it's more efficient to have a a contractor come in and do those uh routine checks on them make sure that they're functioning correctly and and ready to go. Um so few little statistics here. Um, again, the two main things that our fleet divisions does is preventive maintenance. Um, it can go up and down. Um, depending on how many miles uh vehicles we're driving, um, as you can imagine, you know, even down to snowfall if we have a light snowfall year. Uh, maybe we don't drive as much, so we're not doing as many preventive maintenance. Um, um, most of that actually comes from um, and just as a reminder, fleet services does all of all of the city. So it does um public safety, uh building inspections, engineering, public works, uh sports center, all those. So every vehicle that the city owns, uh the uh fleet division gets their hands on in some way, shape, or form. So um most of that activity is obviously public safety. Um they do drive the most miles out there. So um a lot of the u kind of I'll call it the average component becomes the uh the public safety. Um, and then the other one is work orders. Kind of the more major things, the brakes, the, you know, more major repairs. Not that things are failing, but just things wear out. So, um, need to change tires, need to do, you know, brakes on cars. That's all included in in the work order, um, statistic here. Um, next up, streets division. Um, streets is one of the main components from a wintertime operations. Um, uh, we had this year we had 37 snow events. Of those 32 were, you know, full downtown events where we, you know, were sweeping and plowing the sidewalk, stacking, uh, oftentimes having to, uh, truck out excess snow out of the downtown. Uh, we had 40 inches of snow this year. Um, I'll show you a couple statistics afterwards. That's kind of interesting. Um, road salt, um, really depends on the type of, you know, you might say, "Oh, more snow, more snow, more salt." Not necessarily. A lot of it has to do with the temperatures, what type of snow we're getting. um whether it gets packed on the you know what time of the day. If it gets packed on the roads you know during a midday and we can't get out there and plow we typically will use a little bit more salt because of just the timing of the the event. If the you know the perfect snow would start at midnight we'd you know finish at 2. We would come in and plow and cars would never drive over it and we'd never use a whole lot of salt. So um it's such a variable operation that that we have to manage. Um streets also as as time allows they get out and do some tree trimming. Um that's kind of one of their other major activities in the winter time. And then right away in the spring, we were able to get out uh quite early this year um in in March and start doing our uh spring street sweeping. We really try to get that up before the spring rains uh so that that doesn't wash into our lakes and and um and ponds and things like that. So we really want to get out there as early as we can. kind of that we got a sweet spot of about, you know, two to four weeks to get out there before we get spring rains to get all that swept up. Um, other activities they follow up with paho repairs, uh, water main break assistance. Um, we'll get to that a little bit in in the water, but um, all our divisions uh, lend a hand with as we as a water main break gets reported. Um, each of our division divisions get involved in some way, shape, or form. Um and then they uh try to do um obviously not having snow, they try to jump in and do other work uh inside. Uh this year they went through and helped our fleet uh mechanics do overhaul the uh street trooper for spring operations just to make sure we had that ready to go. Um here's a couple of statistics here, charts that I'm going to show you. It's kind of interesting. They started plotting this out. Um uh here's the number of snow events that we had. So what's kind of intriguing is you look at uh 2022 and 2026 same amount of snow events right um we actually had less than 23 uh right now 24 and 25 kind of irrelevant but go to the next slide we show snow totals uh 22 and 26 only had about 40 inches of snow but had more snow events than 2023 you know if I jump back you see 70 in 23 there was 78 in of snow but only 31 events that's I'm saying there's so much variability in in what in how we do our snow operations based on um the number of events, the amount of snow that falls in each event. So um so just kind of intriguing to kind of watch and show show both council and and the general public how how that varies. It's nothing's the same anytime they go and plow. Um next up, water division. Um this is one of the divisions that's fairly routine. you know, we we pump water, we treat water, we send it out to the public to uh consume, especially during the winter time. There's, you know, it's all basically general consumption. It's not um exterior use like um you know, washing your car irrigation, um garden watering, things like that that we'll see in the summertime. So, um that 300 million gallons is kind of a you know, if I showed you a graph, it would be a straight line. You know, not very in interesting by any means. It's kind of pretty steady during the winter time. we our population is not increasing or decreasing. Um so we really don't have a whole lot of variation. Um same thing with our you know our spent lime that we haul out from our um treatment operations or um water softening operations. Um the one thing in the winter time that our water division um does and this year we actually had fairly uh low number of water main breaks. We only had 14 this year. show you um some statistics here in a minute, but um that uh can make or break you know how busy they are and how you know how much the other divisions get pulled into you know they need to be excavated. The road needs to be repaired. The sewer division comes out and uses the the vector to you know clean the hole out and help a we have a typically we have a contractor come out and help us with that activity. They have the trench boxes and the uh pipe work skills to to help us get those done quickly. Obviously, in the winter time, we want those done as as fast as we can. Otherwise, we're getting water spraying all over freezing, icing up the road. So, pretty important to get that done early. Um, uh, then the other thing that the water division does at the kind of before the peak of the season, we get in and do our water, uh, plant maintenance. Um, typically late April, early May. This year, we're able to get in kind of late April time frame. Um this uh our water division has been really focused on uh catching up on a lot of uh you know maintenance needs. Uh couple of things that they've been working on and did this year. Um we did the up the top picture there shows the accelerator basin. They changed every bearing like 60 bearings in this accelerator basin to uh make sure that they were ready to go and for summer season. We have kind of periodic failures, but it was kind of getting to the point where it made sense to um replace all the bearings. This rotates. Those of you who've been I think everyone's been to the water plant, but it just slowly rotates around and around 24/7. So, those bearings eventually will wear out and and uh um now's the time to do it before we get into our busy summer season um so we don't have any failures. Um, the other thing that they've been doing is really trying to uh kind of go through the entire treatment plant and get things uh kind of general maintenance. Uh, this year the focus was uh epoxy coating the floors. Um, again, those of you seen the lime, it's just sticky. It cakes on everything. Uh, the epoxy is going to really help um be able to wash that down, keep the plant a lot cleaner. Um we also added a uh anti-slip resistant to it to help uh you know a lot of water, a lot of um slippery stuff there. So just to increase safety throughout the plant. So we did the uh floors, the stairs, the um um the lime collection uh trough to help wash that out. Um so um a lot of those um and then projects uh that they've been working on as well as well one rehabilitation. um just uh we do those in the spring to try to get ahead of the summer season um so that our wells are ready to go. We rotate we have four active wells so we rotate those one every four years. So kind of each well gets looked at every four years. So this year was well one um and then one of the other three will be the next three years and we back to four one in four or well one in four years. Um and then one thing that we had not done that um uh myself and the uh water division recognized we wanted to have our 1 million gallon uh clear well. So we have three different storage facilities uh within the city. Our center road 1 million gallon tank over on Centry Avenue we have a 3 million gallon stand pipe and then right at the water treatment plant site we have a 1 million gallon big concrete underground clear well. Um so all the treated water that leaves the plant goes into the clear well. um it hadn't been inspected or or looked at in many years. So, we had that um inspection report come in um with flying color. So, they said it's in very good condition. Few little minor upgrades and and things, but a lot uh more minor than we had um had anticipated. You know, it's being, you know, built in 1965. Um we're thinking we're going to have major cracks and whatnot, but uh overall in very good condition. Um just a few little maintenance things that they want done. So um that was very good news. Um um so here I mentioned earlier water main breaks um as you can see also um you know it kind of goes up and down. Uh again we had kind of a light year. Most of the time it's been that 25ish give or take um on an average year. Um a lot of it has to do with temperature and snowfall. So you might ask why this what does snowfall have to do with it insulates the ground. So um but it also depends on when we get the snow. If we get cold temperatures early in December and it freezes and the frost goes down really well but we don't get snow until March the damage has already been done. So it's really a kind of like snow plowing. It's you know when does the cold come when does the snow come. So, um, the, uh, how deep that frost goes really affects, you know, what that water mane, you know, breaks are from year to year. So, we track those. Uh, one thing that we started to do, and I'll probably have the next time we, uh, present, we'll be, we've been, uh, trying to get our mapping up to date. So, it's actually in GIS mapping all of our water main break locations. um so that we can kind of target areas as we talk about the budget and things um where we might need to focus efforts to do water man replacement or you know things like that as we get projects come up in the future. So just so we can kind of target those areas based on data versus just kind of guessing, oh we need to replace this water man. We actually have kind of hey this is you know this stretch of water manes had you know 50 water man breaks in the last 10 years. So we need to focus maybe an effort on on doing a project. So trying to get that uh information in GIS so that it's much more easily trackable. uh sewer division. Um no offense to sewer, but this is the most boring time, you know, routine. I won't say boring, routine time for them. It's they get out and do as much televising and jetting as they can. Um temperatures play a big part in that because the equipment freezes, you know, we're spraying water, we're sucking water up, and uh uh you can cause damage to the equipment. The you know, just it's you know, kind of dangerous. you get out in the sub freezing, you know, conditions and guys are working on water, whatnot, and and uh just not conducive to that. So, they spend a lot of their um winter operations um uh doing lift station maintenance, repairs, um um things like that so that when summertime comes and they can do their televising and jetting, they can focus on that as well as storm water. Um Connie will be talking about storm water here um next on the agenda. But um that's a big thing too in the summertime is doing our storm water inspections, maintenance of our uh uh sump you or our uh manhole sumps to get the uh grit and and debris out of the storm water before it gets to our ponds and lakes. So um data wise um sewer is extremely boring as well. Um I show on the screen there we had one sewer main backup call. Um it averages between zero and one. So that's not a very fun graph to show you or statistic to show you. So it's zero or one in the last probably 10 years. So uh very few issues. And if we do actually have a, you know, an actual backup in our main, it's typically um where grease, you know, from restaurants and things like that kind of collect um and you know, a rag or little debris will catch up on that and cause a backup. So they also use the winter time to do the sewer line grease treatment. So they kind of a solvent, grease solvent they put in the lines that kind of dissolves that grease as they jet so that they can um clear those out so that we don't have those backups. And then they also do a lot of customer service with customer service line backups. Um so a resident will call and say, "Hey, my, you know, water's coming up in my, you know, basement drain. You know what I do?" So our guys, um very uh diligently go out and help residents with those kind of issues. We have a push camera that we can televise uh locate the issues for them and then head them in the right direction whether it be if they need to do major repairs or sometimes it's just having roader or a company like that come out and and clean their lines for them. So um a lot of it is their um customer service side of it and then uh our streets department is the main uh folks that drive our plow trucks but two of our sewer guys also drive our mainline plow trucks. Uh we have four uh streets guys on on the uh plows and then two sewer um folks. So um that takes a little bit of the manpower out of the kind of the sewer operations, put them in the snow operations. So um and then one thing that they got to do fun is we purchased the property next to South Fire and last uh November they got to um tear down the two garages so that kind of falling down. Anyways, uh fire was able to use them for some demos uh for their open house and then we were able to come in afterwards, tear them down and and get them out of the way and clean that up fairly uh efficiently. So, that was kind of a fun little side project that our sewer guys got to do. Uh parks and facilities. Um this is decorations, decorations, decorations, holidays. Um, so basically from October through December and then into January even removing a lot of that stuff. Um, they spend, you can see they spend 400 plus hours um, getting our city looking great for the holiday season, the lighting, the garland, trees, all that kind of stuff. So um, and those duties as well as trying to open and close the park. So they each October, end of October, there's a uh kind of the mid mid to end of October is a big rush to close our uh bathrooms, blow out the water, close them up for the season so things don't freeze. Um and then they jump right into doing um the uh holiday activities. So that's a lot of what they do um for most of the winter. They also help with plowing operations downtown. They lead the downtown plowing operations. Um, so, um, they're busy all winter long. Um, this year they actually got to I didn't put a statistic on here, but for a few weeks they got to even flood the the rinks, which they haven't been able to do the last few years, but didn't last very long. We had some weird up and down in in temperatures as well. Um, and then facilities has been um, uh, routine maintenance uh, and preventive maintenance. Our facilities uh, staff go and do those every day, every day, every week. And then they uh they work with each of the divisions and departments to do other uh big building projects and some stuff down at South Fire with painting. Um new generator transfer switch over at public safety. Um new fire expression in city hall. Um so all kinds of things like that that they work on and help coordinate in each of the buildings as well. Work with every department kind of like um Lenny said, I mean with the budget, with everything. I mean, we jump in and we try to help everybody out and and work with them. Um, engineering, um, again, not a lot of statistics. We, you know, the engineering division just pumps out projects. Um, this year, uh, a lot with the, uh, 26 street rehab project. Um, and not only are we designing the the following year's projects, we're trying to close out the previous year's projects. So, we're, you know, in November, December, you know, doing punch list things, making final payments, things like that, overlapping with the design of the uh the following year's projects. Uh, we also worked uh late last year, we got our tree ordinance done. Um, we'll be uh hopefully uh cutting some ash trees down and replanting here shortly. Um, that's moving forward, getting those quotes and those bids out. uh as we speak. Uh we did a uh Otter Lake Road agreement, that transfer agreement. Uh the uh mentioned the uh recently here that we have just a couple little pieces of paperwork to finish up and we'll be able to finish that transfer and hopefully in the next couple months we'll have that completely done and be able to resign things and and uh um make that ours and hopefully get some of that truck traffic off of Otter Lake Road. Um and then MDOT was here tonight. We've worked on a couple of signal projects, both the uh the Highway 9661 and then the Second Street 61 project uh with them. Um um Connie's been working a lot with the different agencies on uh storm water projects uh with our water management organization. So, uh, uh, tons of agreements, tons of side work that, um, um, I won't say goes unnoticed, but she spends a lot of time working with those agencies getting those projects done to help keep our lakes and and ponds clean. Um, I do a lot of private uh, project reviews, work with the community development department very closely um, heading those private project reviews for storm water requirements and utility connections, things like that. Uh we issue rightaway permits. Um so every one of our anything that happens within our rightway by you know the private utility companies uh telecom, electric, gas all go through us to make sure that they put them in the right locations, they restore things correctly. Um that kind of thing. And then uh also kind of overlapping into a lot of other departments is our GIS uh uh I'll call them department but division. Matt does a great job trying to keep up with um engineering, public works, community development, public safety. He's done a lot of projects for us. So um really trying to map everything that we have. So um one thing that he did work on or has been working on the last few years is a project map that we put in our newsletter. So he works with all the uh city functions to make sure that everybody's projects are in there and those descriptions are uh put into the newsletter each year for so our residents know what's happening in town. Um, last couple things are advisory commissions. This is kind of a I'll call it a slow time for them as well, but they do a lot of their um, so the two that um, engineering public works overseas is the environmental advisory commission and the parks advisory commission. Uh, they do a lot of planning to get ready for the summer um, events that they have coming up such as the uh, environmental resources expo at the marketfest public works open houses. Um we have our parks department that uh and then I'll mention with the advisory commissions they pick a few little projects each year. This year it was uh they've been working with marketfest touch truck different community events to try to make those zero or low waste events. Um parks advisory commission. A lot of what we do is at that commission is work on planning for the next year's projects. This year we had some uh I reviewed Pod Podman Park uh playground equipment and then the the skate park upgrading those uh pieces of equipment within those parks. So they help review vendor proposals and uh um whether it be even picking what colors and and styles, what type of equipment to put in those parks. And then uh late last fall we did a uh a kind of a re restoration of native or a native area within Bosard Park. um that had kind of uh been done quite a number of years ago. We had a uh a friend of one of our parks commission members come and say, "Hey, nothing's been done here for a while. What happened?" Well, it happened before all of our current staff was here and didn't really know about it. So, we kind of got reintroduced to it and a lot of volunteer hours by Parks Commission and some of the neighbors to get that area re-restored. So, uh we're continue to work on that as well. Um lastly, um I have is the spring cleanup was our last big event. Kind of the uh uh all of public works um operations. Um you might even find the mayor in one of these pictures, I think. But um thanks to you to coming out and supporting the public works folks. Uh they did appreciate it. Um kind of she got uh mayor got her hands in emptying trailers and uh delivering donuts, all kinds of things. So, uh, we do appreciate your support over at, uh, at public works for that. So, a lot of hours goes into planning and and, uh, pulling that off. So, and lastly, and Lindy's going to, um, mention this in her communication as well, but, uh, we invite everybody to our public works, our third annual uh, public works open house. That'll be on Wednesday, May 20th from 5 to 7:00 p.m. at our public works facility on Hoffman Road. So, hope to see everybody out there. Uh, with that, I will uh um open any questions you might have. >> Okay. Um, thank you for all of that and I mean I I just have to say that you guys do so much to make this city run so smoothly that I have learned in the last three months and just in watching you guys and knowing what all you do, I just thank you. And it's uh nobody really uh pays much attention until something maybe goes wrong, but you do a lot of work behind the scenes to make everything go smoothly. and I thank you for that. Um, I have a question about customer service backup calls. Do we charge for that or do they does the city just do that? >> Um, we just >> like when the sewer for the sewer if somebody >> for sewer backup calls uh we uh often get on the on a similar note we'll you know come out for a you know water like a leak that someone identifies and they it'll be a water service leak. >> We don't charge for our calls to go out there. So, it's just it's a customer service component that we uh go out there. Um it's a you know, you know, those lines are are private. Um the homeowner owns those from their home out to the main. So, try to lessen that burden on them to to do what we can to help them navigate that. Um, we also, um, again to Jason's department, you know, building inspections, getting involved with a lot of those as well, helping them navigate, you know, who might, you know, what plumbers or contractors they need to help, uh, navigate those repairs. So, that's just a customer service standpoint that we do. >> Okay. Thanks. And my other question is, uh, or statement is just great news about the inspection because when I was out there and they hadn't done it yet and so I'm very relieved to hear about that. So, great news. Does anybody else have any questions? Council member West. >> Thank you, Mayor. Um, so I did a tour of public works not too long ago um and learned a lot of things. Um, so people really should go to the public works um open house. If you want to know more about the when your street is going to get plowed, they have extensive maps that you can see there. It's very interesting. Um but my question really is about um we talked a lot about kind of the fleet and the the number of vehicles now that has increased um we have because we have increased staff um specifically to um fire and and police. So, can you talk a little bit about what our city and our our car mechanic, sorry, our mechanics do um to help maintain those vehicles and how the increase has impacted that and what happens if we don't have those mechanics and kind of where you're looking at, you know, kind of the near future um needs. Um, mayor, members of the council, um, you know, maybe just, uh, like I mentioned early in my presentation with our staffing, you know, obviously we're regrouping. You know, we lost one of our mechanics. Um, every mechanic has a different skill set and and techniques. So, we'll have to uh see where we go. But, you know, from a, you know, especially the specialty kind of components of things, um, you know, when you look at, you know, you bring your car to a, you know, a dealership or a repair shop, you know, there's guys that focus on on different things. You know, you have transmission guys, you have engine guys, you have, um, guys that just do brakes or tires or oil changes. Um, our mechanics are, you know, jack of all trades. They can do or diagnose most anything. Um but there are specialties you know with you know within the uh fleet. Um uh you know the average squad cars, the trucks, things like that are you know pretty you know standard. Um where we really come into you know looking at the needs is the you know the specialty piece of equipment the the bigger heavy uh equipment at public works the the jeter the uh the big dump trucks the um um what else? the the fire engines, um the fire apparatus is a big one. Um just the size of them, the the complexities of them, um mechanic to mechanic, you know, the mechanic that we lost, you know, was willing to jump in and and try everything and not that our current, you know, Danny's not. It's a matter of what their, you know, past experiences are. Um so we'll look at you know as we hire a second mechanic we'll be looking at what their you know what were those specialty you know what that specialty's um need looks like you know um that can complement um you know Danny's skills so that we can get and then once we get that on board we'll have to kind of re-evaluate what you know obviously we you know see you know growth and changes within police and fire you know the number of pieces of equipment even with the public works. You know, it's um evaluating, you know, which pieces of equipment we own, we rent, we um you know, maybe even what we buy to help save manh hours. You know, sometimes a small piece of equipment helps save a ton of manhour so we don't have to hire another staff person. So, um all those are constantly being evaluated. Um as far as, you know, future staffing needs, I think we'll have to wait, especially now where we're sitting today. have to see where uh this next mechanic, you know, to fill the vacancy, you know, how that person falls into place. Um and then see from there what we need. Um uh you know, our fleet is fairly new, fairly good condition. So, a lot of it um like you saw in the charts is pretty routine maintenance. the oil changes, the brakes, the um just kind of the day-to-day check-in like you would, you know, you bring it in for your routine every 5,000 milei checkup kind of thing. So, um kind of just wait and see after we get our second mechanic and and see where we go. But, you know, there are talks, you know, prior to this, prior to um being down a mechanic that maybe we need a third mechanic. um especially with all the specialty items that uh keep um that the uh what do you call it the uh industry keeps coming up with um everything is more complex. It takes more time to diagnose. It's not just uh recalls you know recalls the warranty items um is a huge part of it even just coordinating it. Um, so even when we had two mechanics, a lot of, you know, one of those mechanics times was in the office making phone calls getting cars back and forth to dealerships to get those warranty and recalls completed. So >> before we go further, I just want to add on to director copy what you what you just said. I've shown council before a picture of a pallet full of boxes and in those boxes an entire pallet worth of equipment that goes into one police squad car. And it took it was over 20 hours. That might be under I don't remember now. It was well over 20 hours to build that squad out. And so when a squad is damaged or in an accident that's unexpected and you know in addition to just purchasing it. But the likelihood of just to cut to the chase, we may need a third mechanic. We've talked about that with council at the last budget um cycle, but we didn't propose it for 26. Um I don't know if we'll propose it for 27, but there's that likelihood that that we may. Um but again, we'll need to evaluate the the expertise of of the mechanic that we bring on uh to replace the vacancy. >> And can I just follow up one one more thing? Um, I just I think part of the point of me asking that too, um, is my recollection from previous conversations is our mechanics save a lot of money for the city um, in not having to send out all of our vehicles to do all of the routine maintenance and kind of the other the other um, fixing that they do. So, um I just just to that's correct. Is is that correct? >> Uh mayor, members of the council, that is correct. Uh we have the uh last probably three or four years uh sent very few items uh beyond I'll call it beyond the uh um recalls, warranties. There's a few specialty items like I mentioned like tires. We don't have a tire changing machine. It's just not cost effective for us to do that and have the tires on stock. Um so, a few things like that. Body work. we don't have a body, you know, shop here at the city. So, things like that, that's very specialized transmission work that we would send out and continue to do so even if we hired an additional mechanic, but uh you are right and and Miss Crawford uh stated that um we can do a lot of these things, you know, the the squad builds, the uh public works and uh different uh departments upfit of their new vehicles. So, we get a new you know, you go buy a new vehicle and you just drive it, right? you know, there needs to be lights and switches and, you know, uh, things like that, graphics put on all the vehicles that we get into the city regardless of, you know, which division has it. So, um, yes, there is a cost savings in in keeping that in house. Um um so I would anticipate at some point in time we will um uh as we get things get more complex and we have more vehicles that uh adding a third mechanic definitely uh would continue to save the city money. >> Okay. Any uh council member Gerilla? >> Yeah. Um, sticking with the kind of equipment theme, when I was on the environmental advisory commission, we did a survey where we asked numerous cities how they feel about electric equipment. Um, for example, like chainsaws, an electric chainsaw versus gas. And a lot of them had positive feedback. Again, I like it when it's cost-effective and makes sense and if the people using it like it better, but a lot said it was lighter, less maintenance. How do you feel? We're comparing. No, none of the cities we surveyed, I believe, had any policy. We asked them, "Do you have a policy around this and they didn't?" But how do you feel we um are doing? Do you think do we look at electric options often when we need to replace these things or do we go straight to gas or what? I know it's a more in the field question, but if you have any type of idea or >> uh mayor, members of the council, um good question. Um actually as are a lot of those uh at least a small piece of equipment I'll get into the bigger stuff in a minute but um the small piece of equipment the chainsaws the uh lawnmowers things like that um especially the handheld the push type mowers things like that they've actually are um public works staff actually prefer the electric over the uh um the gas. So as as we have the opportunity to uh replace those um they actually prefer them. They're quieter. They're um they're ready to go. You know, you don't have to uh um you know, in the spring now, you don't have to clean carburetors and make sure that they're running. The gas didn't go bad in them and things like that. So, um they're much safer. They're easier to keep in the vehicle. So, a lot of the guys actually have, you know, their little portable chainsaw in there and it's like, "Hey, there's a, you know, a storm came through. Can you cut the tree down?" It's right in their truck. They just do it. They're not storing it, you know, at public works and whatnot. So, as we have the opportunity to replace a lot of that small equipment with uh the uh rechargeable battery uh style, we uh our staff prefers it. Um whether we need to have a policy on it, uh right now I don't see them going back from it. They really do uh like it. All their, you know, even their handheld power tools are all, you know, battery operated. So, uh they do do like them. Um and we'll um and I would see them continuing to prefer them and buy them. Um, as far as bigger equipment, um, a lot of us have had conversations over them. Um, they just haven't been readily available from a public works equipment standpoint yet. Uh, we continue to go to the, uh, the vendor days and, you know, we've been to a number of the uh, um, I'll call it touch a truck for public works and and other operations where we get to go see what's coming out. Uh, they just haven't had a lot of it in the uh, in the bigger piece of equipment come out yet. So, we'll continue to monitor that as as those become available in the future. >> One more. Go ahead. >> Um, my other one is uh you talked a lot about GIS and how I think it's extremely beneficial um to have those updated maps and things. And I know we have interns. I saw one post on LinkedIn. It showed up on my LinkedIn that they were working for Wiper and they were proud and I was glad to see that. But I was wondering if you foresee I know we look at budgets and costs and if that's a internship program we'll be able to continue having GIS interns in the future because I think it's a real benefit to students trying to get that workforce experience and also to us to support city staff in these importance. But I was just curious what you foresee whether that's something we have to look at or we'll be able to continue. >> Uh mayor members of the council. So, uh, traditionally we had, um, typically hired two interns, um, uh, for as long as, you know, predates me being here. Um, they had always hired two interns, uh, both of them being engineering interns that help with the fieldwork and things like that. Um uh after we hired our GIS uh staff member about four years ago, uh we really looked at the need for you know a lot of the you do so much on the computer but there's a lot of field work that goes into it. Um GPS so you know uh now it's been last year been our first year we have a dedicated GPS unit so they can uh that our GIS uh staff member has that as things come up. I talked about the water mar breaks as water mar break comes up now those have all been or those will all be mapped this spring he's going to go out and he map them it'll go in the GIS so that we know where those those happen um so summertime is a busy time of the year so um this will be year number three that we will reallocated one of those engineering interns to do GIS work and not that we're taking away from the engineering side um but even technologies in the engineering side the surveying a lot of was the survey work. Um but currently our survey work has a and invite anyone who wants to come and learn about our survey um work that we do. Uh they have a robotic total station scene. So it's actually kind of a robot that follows where you used to have a have to have a person stand there and move the m you know move the instrument around. It follows you as you go. So you can it's it's turned really a three-man person and you know a three-man crew into a two-man crew. So, uh, we can afford to have that, um, second intern, um, uh, reallocated to the GIS side to help us with a lot of the mapping things. Uh, they did a lot of work with the, uh, emerald apore and the ashtree inventories and things like that last summer. Uh, we have a lot of things that we have planned, uh, this year as well. Uh, some of it having to do with our comp plan update that's coming up here um, that will really kick off in 27. But a lot of the black work or leg work this summer uh doing some of the mapping and things that we need to do uh for that. So um for this foreseeable future I see it continuing. >> Excellent. >> Okay. Any other questions for Mr. Copy? >> No. Okay. Thank you so much. Thanks. All right. Item 6A, the 2025 storm water pollution prevention program. Miss Talon. >> Thank you, mayor, and members of the council for the opportunity to present on the city's MS4 general permit and associated storm water program. I'm going to present specifically on the 2025 activities. So, MS4 means municipal separate storm sewer system. And this is a system of streets, curbs and gutters, storm sewer, um, and any other infrastructure that conveys storm water runoff into the waters of the states. And waters of the states are wetlands and lakes of certain sizes specifically. Um, these MS4s are owned by a public entity such as the state or the city or the county. And so MS4s within Minnesota must satisfy the requirements of the MS4 general permit. And this permit is issued by the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency, but it stems from a federal requirement in the Clean Water Act. So the purpose of the MS4 general permit is to reduce the amount of pollutants entering state waters from the MS4. So examples of storm water pollutants are listed here. So that includes litter, sediment, phosphorus that's generated from fertilizers, leaves, and grass clippings, chloride from winter salt application, bacteria, and hazardous waste such as oil, gas, and antifreeze. So the purpose of the permit is accomplished through the development and implementation of what's called a storm water pollution prevention program or SWIP for short. This is made up of six components that are listed here. And the each of these six components are called minimum control measures. And there is an additional requirement in the MS4 general permit for those MS4s that flow to an impaired water body. So we do have total maximum daily load, which is what that's called. We do have those requirements as well. So the I'm go I'll go through each of the minimum control measures and what is what makes up each of these. So minimum control measure or MCM one there's a lot of acronyms in storm water is public education and outreach. So this program entails distributing educational materials to inform the public of the impacts of storm water discharge and what the what the public can do to reduce the amount of pollutants that get to these water bodies. So we accomplish this by uh our website, our newsletter, and we utilize the White Bear Press quite often and our social media accounts and I even see some on our kiosk out here in the front. We also participate in outre outreach activities such as water related events and workshops and we partner partner extensively with watershed management organizations and others to accomplish this part this public education and outreach. So we're not each doing our own thing. So it's just a much more efficient way of educating the public. And this this shows a couple of posts from 2025 from our on our Facebook page. So one is a rain garden maintenance workshop that one of the watershed Rice Creek wershed district was conducting and then there was another educational post about keeping leaves and grass clippings out of the street. So our website has a couple of locations where there's storm water related information. One is under your government and engineering and that's more of the the permitted requirements for storm water management and the other is under is a yard and garden under services and environment. This is an example of a page from our spring and our fall 2025 newsletter. So, in the spring, this example shows um the adopt a drain program that we promote and yard waste disposal u options because we want to try to keep that yard waste from getting into the street and into the lakes and wetlands. And in the fall, we focus a lot again on yard waste disposal and on pet waste, proper u pet waste pickup and disposal um and salt reducing salt use in the winter. So, our environmental advisory commission hosts a a environmental resources expo each year on the last night of marketfest and there's there are 14 exhibitors in 2025 and they always include at least two or three exhibitors that focus on water. So, this photo shows um the Vadness Lake Area Water Management Organization who we partner with on a lot of different projects. Minimum control measure two is public participation and involvement. So this this minimum control measure requires us to provide one opportunity each year for the public to provide input on the SWIP. So that is what we were here for tonight with the public hearing. There's also an opportunity for the public to um provide input on our website as well. And then we also provide other opportunities for public participation and involvement such as the adopt a drain program. So we promote this program and we are actually been we are actually a member of the metro watershed partners who host this program. We've been a member since 2019 and as of 2025 there's been 313 drains adopted within the cities or within this city. And the participate participants in this program are asked to sweep up leaves and grass clippings and fertilizer out of the street so it doesn't get into the storm drain and then report on what they have collected if they if possible. And then uh Metro Watershed Partners also gives us an annual report. So you see the one of the pages of that annual report on the screen. Another part public participation um option that we provide is we partner with Birch Lake Elementary Rotary Club and Vlamo. We've been doing this for the past three years now I think. And so we host a field day at Rotary Nature Preserve because we've been doing a lot of restoration work at the park. And so we thought it would be fun to have the elementary kids out there and teach them about the restoration work and the importance of clean water. So in 2025, we hosted the event on May 29th for the kindergarten through 2 graders. And the activity stations included a macro invertebrate lab, a nature walk, and an edible campfire and a book reading. And we'll be doing that again actually next week, too. So, the Environmental Advisory Commission has been hosting a buckthorn removal event now each year. This will be the third year coming up this fall. and they partner with Ramsey Washington Metro Watershed District to um help clear Buckthornne around Hanow's Pond. This past year there were 17 volunteers which is a lot of people which is it's a great turnout. Um so they those volunteers included the watershed district cit citizens advisory committee the park advisory commission and of course environmental advisory commission members and residents. So MCM3 is elicit discharge detection and elimination or IDE for short. So an illicit discharge is any discharge with either accidental or on purpose into a storm sewer system or directly into a river, stream or wetland or lake that is not composed of just storm water. So this program um our implementation of this program so we have an ordinance. We train staff and residents to identify and report illicit discharges. Uh we identify priority areas where it's more likely an illicit discharge discharge could occur. And then there's procedures for locating and responding to spills. Here's a few examples of elicit discharges. And um a lot of these pictures are from actual reports. So concrete washwater, oil or fuel on the street or in the water body. Uh sediment from construction sites is a very common one. pet waste, fertilizer, and grass clippings and leaves in the street. Those are also very common illicit discharges. So, residents uh we educate residents and staff to report elicit discharges by either calling 911 if it's an emergency, for example, if there's a car accident and there's a fuel spill. Um that would uh you would call 911 for that. And the non-emergencies such as the grass clippings in the street, you you could either call the engineering department or we have an online form for people to report that and that's under services report a problem. And then there's more information online which is what's on the screen under in the engineering department under storm water management. So in 2025 there were 14 reports of elicit discharge. I've listed those here. Not all of them ended up being an illicit discharge, but um we still investigate them just to make sure. MCM4 is construction site runoff control. So, we have a construction site storm water runoff control program to reduce pollutants from construction activity. So like I was mentioning sediment off a construction site is a a very common occurrence. So we our program has an erosion and sediment control ordinance. We conduct site plan reviews. So uh me engineering staff and um community development staff review plans site plans that come in. Um there's site inspections and mainly that's the building department that does the the weekly site inspections for erosion control and then there are procedures for non-compliance that again the well the building department um runs that. So this shows on the left improper erosion control. So there's a silt fence there that's supposed to be buried and keep the sediment on site and that has failed. And then on the right there's proper sediment control. So there's another silt fence, but it's um keeping that loose soil from getting into the the more natural space. So as I mentioned, the building department does the inspections and they're certified for erosion and sediment control. MCM5 is post construction runoff management. So this program requires permanent storm water treatment facilities for new and reconstructed private projects and city projects as well. So we have an ordinance and we have storm water design standards. We conduct a site plan review that is mainly done in the engineering department and there's a long-term maintenance agreement that is required as part of this. So this photo shows the Wildwood row homes. So they were required to do storm water treatment and so they decided to put in a bofiltration basin. So we conducted a review of that to make sure it meets our storm water standards and then um I actually went out on this this particular site to inspect the the permanent storm water feature when it was done. MCM6 is pollution prevention and good housekeeping. That is mainly public works. So Paul touched on a few of these items. So city facilities, landscape maintenance, street sweeping, winter street maintenance, storm sewer inspections and maintenance, and employee training. So for example, street sweeping is a really good way to remove items like leaves and grass clippings out of the street so it doesn't wash it into the lakes and wetlands. So the city sweeper is a vacuum sweeper. So that removes fine particles as well as the larger leaves. And they, as Paul mentioned, they sweep the streets in the spring and fall. And they, we also have done an enhanced sweeping partnership with Ramsey Washington Metro Wershed District, which means they would hire a private contractor to sweep the streets in addition to what the city does. So just to pick up even more debris in u priority areas that the watershed district has. And then winter street ma maintenance. The main goal for this is to reduce the amount of salt use while still keeping the streets safe. So the public works staff attends annual smart salt training and they calibrate their spreaders annually. And I'm sure there's a lot of other methods that they use as well to reduce the salt use. and the sewer department, they they um are charged with cleaning out the treatment structures that the city owns. So, we own um various swirl separator, sump, manholes, underground infiltration pipes, pre-treatment structures, and an iron hent sand filter. So, they come in with their vac truck and remove the sediment out of these these facilities. And I'm sure that's a much more exciting thing for them to do, right? So, we also own six rain gardens and we contract out with Natural Shore Technologies to maintain those because there's a lot of native plant maintenance and expertise required for that. And so, we do contract that out. They come out four times a year to maintain these rain gardens. So, we keep engineering keeps that contract with them. So impaired waters. So we do flow our MS4 flows to impaired waters and so we have to meet the requirements of of the MPCA impaired waters. So that so the purpose is to restore impaired lakes for specific pollutants. So nutrients, sediment, chloride, bacteria, etc. So it's the goal is to reduce those to the point where it isn't impaired anymore. So the MPCA created this list of impaired waters that do not meet specific water quality pollutant standards. We call that the 303D list. And MS4 is like the city. We're we're assigned allowable pollutant loadings and they call that a waste load allocation. What that means is that is the amount the maximum amount of a pollutant that you can discharge to a lake and keep it off the impaired list. So we have waste load allocations assigned to five lakes for nutrient impairments. So East and West Goose, Peltier and Centerville, Wilkinson and Lake St. Croy. And good news is two of the lakes that we used to have waste load allocations assigned for are now delisted which means they meet the water quality standards for nutrients. So that's a huge deal and it's because of all these projects over the years that the city and the wershed districts have installed. We also have waste allocations for bacteria impairment with for Rice Creek and Lambert Creek and chloride impairment for Coleman Lake and South Long Lake. So this is trending more to I mean we're we're looking at more and more chloride impairments in the future. So the city's assigned a waste load allocation for nutrients. We we need to report any reduction progress to the MPCA annually. and reporting includes uh what types of projects that we've installed within the watershed of that impaired water body. So on the right I've included some examples of the types of projects that we could implement. So we could install rain gardens. Um the larger basins are called infiltration basins. There's filter media that you can use which is iron enhanced sand is a very common one. You could install a storm water use system. So which collects storm water and then it's used for irrigation. Uh you can construct a storm water pond or you can use alum or spent line applications directly in the lake. So for the delisted lakes, we no longer have to report progress to the MPCA, but we do continue to partner with the wershed districts and others to still install projects to continue to keep that water quality high. And this is an example in the lower right of a rain garden that we installed in 2018. And the calculation shows that that reduces point4 pounds per year of phosphorus. So we have a program that will calculate that based on the amount of imperous surfaces going to it and the types of imperous surfaces. So in 2025, one rain garden was installed as part of our street reconstruction project. So we offer a voluntary rain garden program for for street reconstruction projects each year. And so one was installed last year and it's estimated to reduce pollutant loading to Bald Eagle Lake of 0.2 25 pounds per year of phosphorus and 72 pounds per year of sediment. So the city partnered with the Vadness Lake Area Water Management Organization in Ramsey County in 2025 to build a project at the sports center and it's a swale. So, think of it as a really long narrow rain garden and the the location of it shown on the right aerial photo in yellow and then the arrow is pointing in the direction of what the photo where the photo was taken in the middle. So, this treats storm water runoff from the very large parking lot and from a portion of South Birch Lake Boulevard. So, we have a maintenance agreement with Volamo for 50% of the cost for each year, but we will have the contract for that maintenance and then we'll invoice the watershed. And we will be putting up educational signs at this location because that is required as part of the grant that was received. We're also partnering with Volamo for a wetland restoration project at Rotary Wetland. So this just in general improves watershed health and also wildlife value. So this is the was was the first year of a five-year project and Vlamo was awarded a conservation partners legacy grant from the DNR for $110,250 for this project. And this photo is the Vlamo board tour which occurred on August 5th, 2025. So, back in 2023, we we uh partnered with Volamo to do an Oakno Pond spent lime demonstration project because spent lime from the water treatment plant that Paul was talking about has been shown to actually remove phosphorus from the water column. And so, we wanted to try it. It it was tried on a smaller pond. So we wanted to size that up and try it on a larger pond. So Oaknop Pond was the chosen one pond and Oaknop Pond outlets to Goose Lake which is impaired for nutrients. So if this project was successful, it would also help reduce nutrients to Goose Lake. So on the right is a is a map that shows the storm sewer outlet from Oakn Pond into Goose Lake. So we've had a few couple years of monitoring. So that that chart at the top shows this the phosphorus concentration has reduced it has been reduced by 47%. The bottom phosphorus concentration also by 47%. And the secish transparency which is just a little disc you put down in the water and determine the depth at which you can't see it anymore. So that transparency improved. So it got clearer by 127%. So it has been very effective so far. So we've been really happy with the results of that and it uses a byproduct of water softening as well. So we're assigned the waste load allocation for bacteria and chloride. So we will need to have an ordinance requiring pet owners to remove and properly dispose of waste specifically on city property. We do have language in our ordinance for that already. We will we also have to have an ordinance requiring proper salt storage at private commercial industrial in institutional industrial facilities. So we will be bringing that forward to council for your consideration uh hopefully in the next couple months and then we also need to educate the public on proper pet waste and salt disposal. And that's all I have. And I just want to reiterate, I have this slide up every year, but it still holds true. PA partners are the key to the success of storm water programs. So, this is a photo of the Rotary Club members that I've been working with. They're fantastic. Um, I work with all the water management organizations. We're in four of them. Ramsey County, the environmental commission, the parks commission, um, other departments. Um, so it like say it takes a village, right, to get these projects done. So any questions? >> Um, I I have a question, Connie. So, and actually I was going to ask it after Paul, but so it kind of combines both of you. So I know that we truck a lot of our spent lime um away, so you know, gas prices and trucking the lime. And I was actually going to ask you before I heard that it improves the lake, is is there anything we can do with our spent lime and keep it here instead of driving it somewhere else and getting rid of it? So >> is that what that you were using? >> Yeah, we were using the lake. Our cities spent lime, right? Yeah. Because the they were looking at either city of St. Paul for a source or us. And so you we had a different slurry thickness I guess and it was closer. >> And so that's what we used in Oakno Pond was our spent life. So that's really could be something in the future we do more often. Huh. And not have to truck it somewhere. >> Maybe. >> Maybe. Mayor, members of the council, um to answer your question a little bit, um so kind of the typical routine to get rid of the spent lime is to process in such a fashion that can be used for, you know, by the farming community, things like that. >> Um the issue with it is is that um depending on the so like for our spring cleanout, we actually have a uh outfit that an agricultural outfit that comes in and and uses that lime. So we get rid of it. We don't send it to St. Paul. It works in the spring because they haven't planted yet. They haven't, you know, gotten the crops ready to go. So, this time of the year, it works for them. Um, get in the summer months and you have crops growing, there's no need for that. >> We don't we don't have the ability to store the lime slurry. So, it's kind of a, >> you know, lime water mix. So, what what happens um at a facility like St. Pauls is they decant and compress that and like lime cakes and that can be used at at a later date by the farm farmers and whatnot. But so we would have to have a way to either store the slurry um or have our own decanter and press in order to make those cakes with. Um so it's there's options that we're looking at um to help reduce that. Um, you know, who knows sometime in the future if we have to rebuild the plant or upgrades to the plant, maybe that is an operation that is added. Um, we'll have to look at those cost benefits that, you know, is it truly worthwhile long term or not to to have our own. So, um, constantly looking, you know, this is a small volume overall volume, but if the pilot were to grow legs, there's not that many, you know, there's only a handful of St. Paul, a few other communities that do lime softening currently. Um, so there could be a market to at least in the summer months and our water usage is up in the summer months. So we use more lime in the summer months. So it's actually an opportune time if that uh uh that program grows legs and then we can actually get it out uh more in the metro area uh with other water management organizations, our communities doing it. >> Excellent. Excellent. Does anyone else have any questions? Council member Gerola, >> thank you um very much for the presentation and all your work, especially the swale project. I love seeing that. Um I was just wondering, you talked about the lakes that became delisted. Are there any other lakes we should be concerned about that could go the opposite and appear on the list? I get you can't say, but is that have you found in prior years, okay, we delist some, but then there's some that become added, or are we moving more in the direction or what does it take to keep them off um the list on our side without just replacing them with others? >> Mayor, members of council, the first question is yes, they get added all the time. So, for example, Silver Lake, that's in the Valley Branchwwater district on the far souththeast corner of the city. It's actually in the, you know, city south of us. Um, that is now impaired. It was not before, but there hasn't been a waste load allocation assigned yet. So, we don't have to report on that at this point. So, yes, there they get added all the time. And so and the ones that are delisted or the ones that were never impaired to begin with like Birch Lake, we're we're always looking for projects to remove more phosphorus to keep them off the impaired waters list. The chloride is a much more challenging pollutant to deal with. And so there aren't you you you can't just put in a filter and filter out salt out of water. So that's um they're working on that. The MPCA now has staff to deal with the salt issues and education and that sort of thing. So I don't know if that answered all of your questions. >> Okay. >> Go ahead. >> Um I know that as an alternative to salt, the county really tried to push was it grit? Is that what it was called? for the um the rocks that for chicken food I guess is the best way to describe it. Um and the county invested in that to give it out for free for people to use as an alternative. Is that a program you think will continue or is that something we as the city could look into to try to promote our residents to use that as opposed to salt or >> cl mayor members of council? So that was a Ramsey Washington Metro wershed district driven program for residents um instead of salulting their driveways and sidewalks. Um I mean I can talk with the wershed districts and I think some of the other other wershed districts actually came into the program Blammo and Rice Creek and so um I think working with them because they may have the budget for it at this point. just working with them and um having them promote that and just encouraging that again. So, yeah. And I know I think years ago the street um I think they used to sand streets, didn't they, Paul? But they got away from that. >> Yeah. So, mayor, members of the council, so the the poultry grit that you're talking about works well on a on a residential scale where, you know, people just sweep it off into their yards and their grass and it kind of just goes away, right? Um if we use uh years ago it's it's kind of um you know was one of the first things that we used was you know sand on the roads to help add traction. Um however that grit all gets washed in the storm sewer and in the lakes and causes a a different type of impairment. So, um, the industry trend went to salt because at the time there weren't the chloride impairments that, uh, Miss Talon's talking about, but, um, you know, we kind of replace one issue with another issue. Now, um, however, you know, the the bigger industry is looking at different things of that is, you know, nonchlorides or things. Uh, we actually use treated salt. So, we use a um kind of a non-pollutant treatment on it to help make it stick better to the roadway. It works to a lower temperature. You have to put less down. Um Connie mentioned, you know, the uh um you know, calibration of our equipment. You know, really watching where and how much we use salt. Um you know, a low-speed little road doesn't need salt, but maybe, you know, the intersection with Highway 61 does. So, we really focus on where that salt is needed uh to help reduce that overall volume that we put down each winter. So, but we keep following industry st industry trends. Um there's all kinds of smart people out there that are looking at alternatives to to actual road salt. >> Thank you. And I appreciate clarifying for the city. I was mainly asking for the residents like you said too, but I like your idea of asking more from the watershed to see if they can help support us in promoting that. But I know it's always evolving issues like you referenced to. So, thank you. All >> right. Does anyone else have any questions? Okay. I'm going to open it up to a public hearing. Um, so I'll open the public hearing. Um, I have no lists on my um signup sheet. However, would anyone like to speak for the public hearing and ask Miss Colin Talon questions? Going once. Public hearing. Going twice. No. Okay. I'm going to close the public hearing. All right. Thank you so much um Miss Talon for everything. And I know that um people sometimes think this is it's a lot and it's a lot to process in here, but I mean the lake is our most important resource here and we want to make sure we keep it clean and around for the next generation. So, I appreciate all this and I encourage people to get involved in it. Um, it's really important. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right. Item seven, unfinished business. There's nothing scheduled. Item eight, new business. Um, 8A, the first reading of the ordinance amending zoning code regarding tobacco shops and cigar lounges. Mr. Lindal. Thank you, mayor, members of the city council. As you mentioned, the request before you is uh the first reading of an on proposed ordinance. Um the applicant in this case is Founders Cigar Company. Um the text amendment that's uh before you tonight for the first reading would add two conditional uses to the MXD or mixeduse downtown zone. Those uses are uh listed as tobacco product shop and premium cigar lounge. Um the ordinance also before you add a definition for premium cigar lounge. Um the applicant um has is while the text amendment is an overall amendment to the zoning code. Um the applicant has indicated an interest in um uh a property at 2163rd Street. Um as part of the rest of my presentation, we'll look at the text amendment standards for review. um some history about the tobacco um um zoning and licensing standard development for White Bear Lake, how some other cities look at this issue, and then um just to note, both planning commission and staff had re have recommended denial of this request. So um in looking at the zoning code text amendment just these are the issues that we typically look at um uh for uh a zoning code text amendment generally look at whether it's the proposed amendment is promoting the public health safety morals and general welfare of the community. More specifically, we look at um whether or not it's um in conformance with the city's comprehensive plan, whether or not it corrects an error or inconsistency or it will help uh meet a challenge of a changing condition. Um we also look at consistency with the zone that it's looking that it's looking to go into and then um other uh applicable city ordinances. Um, in this case, we've note uh licensing because there not only is there a zoning component to this, but a license a business licensing for tobacco shops. Um, but just to be very clear, the only item before the council tonight is the zoning portion of of of what I'm talking about right now. Um, and then finally, uh, could the, uh, uh, proposed amendment cause depreciating in the area which is proposed? Um and those so those are the the city standards related to zoning text amendment. In this case uh we're we considered other factors which is conformance with the Minnesota Clean Indoor Air Act. So just to give you a quick run through of the history of the city's development of both zoning and licensing standards for tobacco shops. Back in 2023, uh the city developed uh or that passed um an ordinance related to licensing standards for tobacco shops that included a definition with some uh basic components you see on the screen here, an ent entrance directly to the street uh 21 plus only and 90% of the revenue uh from tobacco related sales. Um it limited uh the number to 10 within the city. Currently, we have five licensed tobacco product shops. There are a number of other tobacco licenses, but they're for um other businesses that only have a small portion of their tobacco sales. Um so just there just mean may be more in your mind than just that five that we're talking about. And then the licensing standards uh put in specific standards for sampling. And those standards included uh again for just the city of White Bear Lake, our our licensing standard for sampling. Um that there would be no tables or seating and no weight staff in those areas. Um it would be limited to only free samples. So, kind of mimicking the idea of when typically you go to the grocery a grocery store and they're handing out samples on a Saturday, it's just a portion of a product that they're promoting or have on sale and they're trying to uh you know entice you to buy. Um that the sampling is incidental to the retail operations of the tobacco sales and then that and then and then that there is no external signage promoting the sampling. So again, those are the standards in the licensing side of the of what the city um uh standards that were created in August of 2023. Those are separate from the zoning standards that we're talking about now, but just again in the sense of history. So then in the following month in September of 2023, we followed up with zoning standards to go along for tobacco products or tobacco shops. that included a a definition that basically mimicked the one in um in um the licensing standard 21 plus and um entrance to the street. I just mentioned in the last side um it limited um the location of tobacco shops to a conditional use in the B4 general business zone which was under our old zoning code. Okay. Um and then it specifically uh made effort to um prohibit those uses in the neighborhood commercial areas or in the downtown commercial area. It also established buffers of of these uses from um some specific uh activity. So a thousand So tobacco shops couldn't be located within 1,000 ft of a school or 500 ft from a daycare uh residential treatment facility or public park feature while children are present. And then so those were the standards that we developed in tandem in August and September of 23. And then I'm sure everyone remembers we went through then an extensive process to look at our entire zoning code. Um and so two years later almost exactly um we wrapped up the entire review of the zoning code and uh we did reook at and reaffirm the standards um then you know just this past basically last fall. Okay. And so um that uh in as part of that discussion uh staff would note that the council stressed that standards should be we should try to have um consistency between the standards for offsell liquor, tobacco and cannabis. Um we listed the use under retail sales and we assigned it to the MXS or mixeduse suburban zone in the new code. Not to get into a whole lot of detail with this, but generally speaking, the B4 zone in the old code and the MXS co uh zone in the new code are basically in the same locations of the city. Our higher capacity intersections that draw more regional kinds of retail to the city. So keeping him in those area and examples would be Century and 694, White Baron 694 and 96 and 35E and so limiting those to the areas where regional um um commerce occurs and and keeping them away from neighborhood serving um uh retail areas in the more core areas of the city and then also in the downtown. And then it's also um worth noting that as part of that process, the council had a specific ask to add a tobacco/dispensory into the Summit Liquor Strip Mall at E and Whitebear Avenue and as part of the overall zoning update. It wasn't really a specific um it wasn't its own application, but it was a request um where that property owner came and talked to the council during the zoning update process and made that request. And at that time um the council deter um decided not to um reszone or change the standards for that uh property because it it wouldn't match the MXS zone. and it also wouldn't have met the buffering standards uh in that location. So again, hopefully that that's a real quick summary of several years of history um and happy to answer questions when we get to that. Um we also um had some conversation um both with the applicant as they were um applying and then throughout the review process with the planning commission what other cities are doing related to this issue. And so the three communities that came up were Blaine, Maple Grove, um, and what was referred to in the conversation is still water, but given its location, it's actually in the corporate limits of Oak Park Heights. So just to again quickly summarize this, both Blaine and Maple Grove basically treat these things similarly. They allow them as a permitted use. They've defined them as a tobacco shop and then have a general statement that says they must comply with the Minnesota Clean Indoor Air Act. They leave the enforcement of that up to the Minnesota Department of Health and again which is rightly so. It's a state level regulation and the city has deferring that part of enforcement to um MDH. In the case of Oak Park Heights, they allow it as a permitted use, but they don't have any specific zoning um or use or definition standards for for it and they just consider it retail sales. Um they don't have buffers that that they apply to that and they don't have licensing or sampling standards. So they just treat it again um in their community, they've made a decision to treat it generally as retail sales. So then we take a look at kind of the um city standard kind of things and the analysis that staff did. So um there's a lot more detail this about this in your staff report. Be happy to answer any questions but just in a summary level again we looked at does this comply with the comprehensive plan. So, we looked at the um um goals and policies for the downtown land use category. Um and that encompasses a broad range of uses um in intensities including residential, commercial, and institutional. It is intended uh that development contribute to the pedestrian scale walkable environment that is already present in downtown. and it talks about um the idea of downtown as the heart of the community and the types of uses and mixes that go along and make that up as that kind of iconic feature of the community. And then we looked at the um zoning district standards and again you'll see some similar kind of language here carrying through through the zoning that was developed. And so walkable storefronts providing shopping, dining and services for residents and visitors. Upper stories accommodating mix use mix of uses such as residential and office. The tobacco product shops again what we found um were uh currently prohibited in that zone based on past council review and policy development. And then that the zoning code uh amendment in 2023 created those uh tobacco product shop standards and reaffirmed uh as part of the zoning update. And so then also we looked at consistency with the tobacco product shop buffers that were established. And so, um, even if the use was approved in this case, the buffering standards that are in place, um, wouldn't allow it in the location that the applicant uh is considering. Again, the specific location isn't part of this uh review. Right now, we are really just talking about what standards, if any, should be in place. And so again, those standards, 1,000 foot feet from schools, 500 uh feet from daycare, residential facilities or park features. Um and then we um so not only do we look at the zoning standards and its consistency, but then again consistency with other city regulations and that gets into the licensing standards. And so again, we the White Bear Lake has specific standards for for sampling that talks about no tables, seating or weight staff, limited to free samples, not a product that you purchase. Um that it's incidental to the retail sales and that there would be no external signage. Um and then we looked at uh the question of whether or not uh there could be deprecion depreciation in the area related to this request. And while that is a difficult thing to determine before something happens, the things we considered was whether or not it's compatible with surrounding land uses, consistency with other zoning and licensing standards, and then the Minnesota Clean Indoor Air Act. talk more about that in a second and the possibility of that producing negative impacts on the surrounding uh uh uh uses or zone. So that what I just talked about really looks at what the zoning standards or what the standards the city has for for reviewing a zoning change. Now, we're also looking at um the Minnesota Clean Indoor Air Act. And so the that act prohibits smoking in uh it says it shall not be permitted um in a no one sells smoke in a public place, at a public meeting or in a place of employment or or in public transportation. And so it's pretty all-encompassing. The the standard the exception that's in here uh uh uh for sampling is specific to um tobacco product shops and it it says that customers may light, heat or activate tobacco products um um for the purposes of sampling tobacco products in that location. It doesn't go into detail of what of more detail about the product or how you do where you do it and those kinds of things. Now, the city under its licensing standards has created some other standards that are more specific for licensing. Um, but the applicant's position is um that there's an exception in the Minnesota Clean Indoor Air Act that allows sampling to happen. So, um, questions for the city council to consider. Really, this is just kind of a summary of what we the way staff looked at this, but in your discussion tonight, um, does the text amendment do these things? Promote the public health, safety, and welfare of the community. Is it in conformance with the comprehensive plan? Does it correct an error or inconsistency or or challenge uh um uh uh that's in place from a changing condition? Does it conform with the MXD zoning standards generally or um to be thinking about next steps? Should we go this way? The licensing standards. Um could there be depreciation in the area if we make these changes? And then does it conform with the Minnesota Clean Indoor Air Act? And so the findings that staff made basic looking at those things came to the conclusion of uh that we should recommend denial based on those things based and and um in looking at not only our own zoning standards and looking at other communities but in discussions with the city attorney on the Minnesota Clean Indoor Air Act and reaching out to um the Minnesota Department of Health and Ramsey county about their view uh of this use and the Minnesota Clean Indoor Air Act. So, that's um um a lot to cover um in this recommendation. Again, what you have before you here tonight is um conducting of the first reading um of the zoning text amendment. The second reading uh should council choose to move along would be on May 26th. Um and at this point based on the recommendation from the planning commission uh for denial we would bring forward a resolution at that second reading uh for denial of the ordinance pending comment and direction from the council. And so with that I'll stand for questions. >> Okay. >> All right. Council who has questions? >> Okay madam I don't know if I have any questions. Uh looking for I assume you're looking for some input. Um uh some observations. You're right. That's a lot. There's a lot of stuff going on. A lot of moving parts. Um maybe I do have a question. The the the decision you're making the the the the text change is on a zoning change for tobacco product shops coming into downtown. So all of your discussion, all of your decisions, the the recommendations from city, what the planning commission, you know, discussed, is that full tobacco product shop in the downtown area? That's that's is that the right assumption I'm making here looking at what what you just presented, >> mayor, members of the council, yes. But that's also based on that that that we processed what the applicant applied for. >> Right. Right. So I guess that's that'd be where I'm at. So, I would not support a tobacco product shop in downtown Wiper Lake. I think the zoning is appropriate. It's right. It's good. It fits. And the and so there's there's a couple there's lots of moving parts here, but let's just take it from the retail uh premium cigar shop. Forget the lounge for a minute, >> right? >> Um if if I will just I'll tell you where I stand. I do not support a tobacco product shop or just opening up the the the zoning, you know, with this amendment that's proposed. so that that that we any tobacco product shop could come in, you know, in addition to this this premium cigar shop. I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't vote for that. But I think it's worth considering and I dis I think the the more narrow analysis of a premium cigar retail shop I think does fit in White Berkeley. I think it does fit the other uses. It doesn't it fits in with the with the downtown vibe. Bars, restaurants, shops, high-end premium premium cigars. So that that if there was a way to do that, I would support that. And I don't know exactly how to do that and if there was I listen to my colleagues I mean if if it's worth even pursuing. Um but that that's a more narrow a narrow thing to just say premium cigar shop fits downtown is is that text amendment would create a new a new entity basically a new thing to zone that would not allow any tobacco product shop to come in. That is something I would be worth considering the lounge. If you if you separate, maybe we can stop there and talk about that for a while. But the lounge is is a a heavier lift, a more difficult lift. I on its face, I don't have a problem with it. I'm not sure we can figure out how to do it, you know, and make it fit. You know, it's interesting that the Clean Air Act is is is in play because I've actually been in the Maple Grove location a few times and for years. And obviously the state hasn't made a move to shut those down. It doesn't look on its face that it complies, but they haven't shut them down. That's kind of I don't know what to do with that. I mean, it's it's it'd be no risk to us as a city. It'd be a risk to the business owner if they want to risk having if we somehow found a way to permit that that they wanted to open it and then someday the state said we're going to shut these down. That would be the risk to the business owner. Maybe not so much to us. But that's a whole separate issue. But I I think the the first discussion maybe if there's any interest at all and I don't even know if there's because one of the beauties of our council is we don't pre-confere these things. I have no idea what my colleagues think on this issue and no one wanted to go first. So, I decided to go first again. Uh, but I'm I'm just telling you my on my gut, the premium cigar shop fits in downtown. I would be a customer. Um, the but not tobacco shops as so I agree with your your assessment. If you're saying general tobacco product shops come in, I would say no. I agree with your assessment, but if there's a way to do a premium cigar shop, I'd be interested in that. So, I've talked enough. >> Isn't a cigar shop a tobacco shop? I'm confused. I don't know. >> Okay. Well, Madame Mayor, I would I would say, of course, but we would we would have to define it differently, more a more narrow definition, a a very narrow definition of a premium cigar shop. There is a there is a state definition of premium cigars in state statute. It's a hand rolled cigar more than $2 in price. So, you can start there. No, no parapanelia, no glass case, no vaping stuff like that. No, very narrow premium cigars. I imagine some products that would go with that. You can talk to the applicant, I guess, but you know, a cutter, lighters maybe, but no, very narrow. So, I would say yes, tobacco for sure, but it would be it would if the council wanted to do something, that's that's what I would support, a very narrow new type of tobacco store that could be a yes. Whereas the more broader one, I would say, is still a no. >> Okay. >> Okay. Thank you. Anyone else? Council member West. Um, so we voted previously not to increase the number of tobacco cannabis um, sellers in the downtown area. And I think it just for health reasons as well as I don't think it really comports with kind of the family the family atmosphere that we want. So, I would not be in favor of, you know, especially pulling out and creating a new category. Um, honestly, I've been an advocate for um not smoking due to health reasons since I was a little kid. Um, I was the bane to my dad's existence for a while there. Um, and I have no interest um whether there's um concern or not um about follow through in us not following the Minnesota Clean Air Indoor Air Act. I think it's important that we continue to follow it. Um I we already denied somebody for this very like kind of this very thing. they were not in the correct zoning area and they were outside um or I'm sorry within the >> buffer zone and so um you know I can't see you know saying okay for this for these folks and not for that person and once we do it for one then you know why wouldn't we do it for other people and I think it just it changes a lot of things in the code um that we put together um very thoughtfully um and I I still support the code. So, >> thank you, Council Member Edberg. >> Thank you, Mayor. This is first reading. Um and I'll defer a decision for the next meeting, but three questions that pop up for me. Mr. Lindal is I'm having trouble imagining how we would create a premium um cigar zoning a shop definition without opening it up to uh uh without that falling inside of the prohibited general smoke or um cigarette um tobacco. shop. Is there Can Do you see a way of doing that? >> Um, mayor, members of the council, um, I would agree with you that just off the cuff, I I I I'm having trouble thinking of a way to do that because the tobacco product is the common denominator to all of these things. Now, >> could the applicant um provide information that you know with a definition that may um meet the um concerns of >> Sorry. >> Yeah. >> Uh uh meet the concerns of the council. You know, we you know, we can pose that question to the applicant. So, but um you know, then we'd have to, you know, consult with the city attorney on how that kind of um aligns with state law and those limitations. And so, >> okay, got thank you. So, that's a challenge we have would have to figure out. Um, second question. Um, this council and I was I did not support the uh buffering the the buffering distances that the council otherwise 4 to one adopted. I'm having trouble imagining how we would um given the proximity to existing daycarees, schools, etc. I'm having trouble picturing how any um location in the downtown area would um avoid the buffering requirements. Um, and so in order to make this possible, not only would we have to find the definition um that works, question one, but we'd also have to, it seems to me, we would have to take up the buffering conversation and changing the uh um uh changing the distance from any location in the downtown. And I I've looked at those maps. I I can't picture how that works. Am I am I right in uh thinking that a change in our buffering uh standards would be required in order to site anything downtown even if we could pass test number one or am I thinking wrongly? >> Uh mayor, members of the council, no. I would agree with you that you're with your thinking um that the buffers would need to be reduced and maybe eliminated. >> Okay. That's an option available to the council if we should choose to take uh take that up. We've used at least two prior occasions to not do that. Not for tobacco for cannabis. Um but that would have to be a second test. Now the third one. So, uh, Mabel Grove and, uh, Blaine defer enforcement of the Clean Air Act to, uh, Clean the Indoor Air Act to, um, defer that to the state department of health. It's a state standard state regulation. I get it. Um, I think we in our packet, we received communication both from a uh, city attorney as well as from U statement. I think it was from MDH, it was a state source that says sampling and and so forth in such a venue is not consistent with the standards of um and yet I think um member Walsh rightly says, "Okay, we've got it. Why why is no action being taken?" Um I'll I'll raise a first question to you, Mr. Lindall, and then I'll toss it to Mr. Anderson. Um, is there is it your understanding is is staff understanding and saying your opinion is that the proposal does not comport with the requirements of the Minnesota Indoor Clean Air Act? Do is staff what's staff's reading of that? >> Yeah. >> Setting aside the enforcement question, how do you how do you read the liability conversation? >> Yep. mayor, members of the council. Um I think there are the two parts of that is would be um staff's recommendation to you based on it not complying is that it does not comply. It appears not to comply. >> That's based on feedback from Minnesota Department of Health and the city attorney. >> Okay. >> So those two things. >> So let me toss to you, Mr. Anderson. Um, you wrote a memo. I read it. Makes sense to me. But, um, so the anomaly of not enforcing against two state now I don't Okay. Do Do they actually have premium tobacco shops in those two locations that are up and functioning? >> I've been I've been in one. Yes. Okay. >> It's a cigar store. Is there any what interpretation should uh or what meaning should uh this council put on the fact that two other communities have taken such action? Um made a determination well I guess they've avoided making a determination about compliance with the indoor air act but no no uh enforcement from on a state level. Is there any guidance that you would offer us in ter in terms of how we interpret those issues and the act the absence of action to date? >> Sure. Mayor, members of the council. So, um, you know, it's interesting because what I understand they do in Blaine and Maple Grove is they have they allow what council member Walsh proposed, which is not what's being requested by the applicants, and that's for a subcategory of a tobac of a tobacco retail shop. Okay? >> That's a premium cigar shop, a retail establishment. What this council is being asked to do, what the applicant has proposed, is to allow tobacco product shops, which is a more broad category in the downtown area, and then add a second uh conditional use, which is a premium cigar lounge. To me, that seems different from a cigar retail shop with incidental sampling. Um, the way I understand it, well, and in fact, I I've looked at Blaine's uh definition of what they allow. Blaine allow or excuse me, Blaine allows cigar lounges, which are simply defined as a tobacco product shop limited to cigars. It's not a lounge. It's not somewhere where people have 24/7 access to sit around and and smoke um cigars, which is what these applicants have requested. um that to me is a significant um distinguishing factor here about what we're talking about. And so the question that was posed to me, my staff, and what you saw in in the packet was simply does the request from the applicants in my viewpoint, if they were allowed to do that, would it adhere to the Clean Indoor Air Act? because they're asking for something which in my view is totally different from a cigar retail shop. Um, based on the analysis, it seems to me that it doesn't. Um, and it also seems to align with the Department of Health's analysis and information that I've seen uh from the Department of Health, from Ramsey County, from uh health authorities that are more um um in the business, if you will, of of enforcing the Clean Indoor Air Act. And what I'll also add is before you I think you use the the term those cities deferred enforcement to to MDH but um keep in mind that the city regardless of whether we say um whether we defer it or not we have no enforcement authority over the clean that is entirely left to uh the department of health um and they can delegate some of that stuff to the local um health authorities but in in Ramsey County that's the county that's not the city of White Bear Lake. So, you know, the only thing that um theoretically the city of White Bear Lake could enforce in the Clean Indoor Air Act is I think if someone like lights something up inside, if someone were to light a cigarette or a cigar in this room right now, the police could cite them for a petty misdemeanor. But we're talking about business enforcement. We're talking civil penalties in excess of5 or $10,000. very significant enforcement mechanism that are is available to the department of health, not necessarily to to the city. But what those cities did do is based on those definitions, they say a cigar lounge, I actually I I stopped a little early when I ear quickly when I read the Blaine definition. They define a cigar lounge as a licensed tobacco product shop limited to cigars and pipes and operated in compliance with the Clean Indoor Air Act. meaning we're only allowing something that is allowed under state law. Um, and I think the the reason they do that is is for a CIA to say that to prove to MDH that they're not intentionally allowing anything that might um violate the Clean Indoor Air Act, but um whether MDH is out enforcing, I mean, they're complaint-based enforcement. So, um, maybe they haven't had complaints or frankly maybe there's such a a gray area about where sampling becomes more than sampling and it's hard to enforce. I don't know. However, what I do know is a 247 cigar lounge seems to fall pretty outside of that gray area and and you know, in a in a category of its own is something that likely wouldn't pass the test. >> Okay, >> that's my two cents. >> Fair enough. So, member Walsh, tossing it back to you, the idea that you could support or at least would give con consideration to is a retail location where you where a consumer, a person over 21, consumer, legal buyer, could walk in, view product on the shelf, perhaps watch it being made. Um, no. You're you're picturing that narrow definition without sampling, without, you know, um, men enjoying cognac and their cigar in a glass area, whatever that that smoking experience looks like. What do you have in mind in terms of something that you could get in back of? >> Yes, madam mayor, if I could. Um, um, I think so. I think the the narrow that's I think you'd have to have an imagination for this. I mean, it's not it's not it's something new. It's something different. I think the bottom line is I consider cigars different. And if and if I can't convince others, that's fine. I mean, that's and others may lump all cigars in with cigarettes and cannabis and everything else. I consider the product differently. And I think it's worthy of a discussion of whether we could do a premium retail cigar shop. Very narrow. I think the Blaine the Blaine definition sounded close just for the retail piece. Again, separating the lounge thing. That's that's a whole different thing. And I'm not sure if the business model for this applicant even works without the lounge. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe they walk away. But I think the lounge is a much heavier lift. Um but I think I just think the premium cigar narrow retail fits in downtown. I just believe that. Again, thinking that it's different and new. not new different different for us. So, >> but um fair but then how do you square the buffering conversation? >> Right. Thank you for bringing that up. Uh if I can, M Mayor. Um yeah, I mean I think I think you again you treat cigars differently. You' exempt if if you if you had to create a class of retail to go in the zoning code. They just the buffer wouldn't apply. The buffer wouldn't apply to a premium cigar shop. So sprier I mean we can do whatever we want. I mean there's no there's we can we can exempt them from buffers if we think it's a good fit. you know, >> and so we could equally consider um a a cannabis shop downtown with the same ex um uh oh, what's the word I want? Uh without have without requiring buffering the the buffering conversation. Um >> I think if we thought the idea was good enough. >> Yes. I think it's in our power to do so. I wouldn't I wouldn't vote for that. I I will distinguish cannabis from cigars. And you can call that inconsistent. That's fine. I'll be inconsistent. >> No, I'm just I'm I'm trying to Is there a space of >> something in the middle? >> Frankly, I'm It's hard for me to imagine that right now, but >> yeah, I appreciate >> Maybe. >> I'll be quiet. Thank you. >> Corola. >> Yeah. Um I wasn't here in August when we passed this zoning or here as a voting member, I guess. So, um I appreciate city staff. I had lots of questions regarding this um just because I wasn't here the first time around. So, taking time to answer all my questions um because it very thoughtful being new. I also heard from two people who were in support of it mainly seemed to be for the lounge. So, I'd be curious if there was still that same support for what you said, like a shop without um something that I'm kind of wondering though is okay, the cigars. What about when I was younger, cigarellas, I don't even know if I said that right, were super popular with like 18, 19, 20 year olds and everybody wanted them. Would that fall under that category? And then somebody down could like sell those or do a lounge down there. I know there's like two separate I'm kind of lumping in, but that's one that came to mind. I didn't think till you brought that up. Um where those fall cuz yep, those a lot of my friends were into those and thinking about buffering zones and those things. Um I think for me the lounge piece, the licensing, there's a lot to get from here to there um for that. And just for that piece, I'll throw it to you that if one of our current tobacco shops that got grandfathered in from the previous licensing wanted to do like a cigarilla lounge, could they do that if we approved like this one? Just looking like down the lounge piece. So, um, mayor, members of the council, the I I would echo the comments from council members Eggberg and Walsh in that the council can set policy and choose if they, excuse me, if they'd like to to draw this pretty narrowly or give direction, I should say, to the applicant to draw it more narrowly. Um, so I I would whether or not that's possible I I can't tell you sitting here tonight. Um but to try to maybe answer the second part of your question then if the other other uses o other property owners in in whatever zone the council would allow should the council choose to allow this in would be allowed to do the same thing. So yeah, this is a the text amendment would impact zonewide >> just if I can just add the question. I think the state definition of premium cigar there is a we could use if if we we constructed an ordinance or a text change. Premium cigar means any cigar that is hand constructed as a wrapper that is made entirely from whole tobacco leaf has a filler and binder is made entirely tobacco except for adhesives you know at a wholesale price no less than $2. So I think that does raise the bar on very narrowly what what would if if again if we wanted to do this I think it eliminate the cigarella or the Swisser sweets or some of the stuff that that comes in a pack of six and would probably be machine rolled or machine wrapped. >> You know I'm sounding like a cigar expert here. You don't need to. >> I'm really not. But >> there was a day when I was long ago in a galaxy far far away. >> If if there's a will, there's a way. I don't know that there's a will. You know, that's that would be the question, >> right? >> So, the state does designate it differently. >> Well, this is this is just a state definition of premium cigar. I found it. I'm not sure exactly what the use of this definition is in state statute. It might be several different places. It just it's just helpful. Yeah. That someone has already gone to the work of defining a premium cigar and we could we could use this. That's all I'm >> Thank you. >> Anyone else? >> I think something I go back to is the sorry wasn't recognized but yeah uh the recently recognized again being new. This is where I keep recently recognized zoning code and then changing that so soon is a hard but again like you said there's lot >> right >> lots of you know considerations and I don't know if there is a route to go down to say okay just this spec like you're saying for the premium cigar and that piece that would be different than just in general other tobacco >> right so it sounds like we're saying possibly narrow down on the retail but no smoke shop. Is that what I'm hearing? Am I hearing that correctly? >> I'd say we don't know. And I have my inclination. You were looking at me. May I be recognized? >> Yes. >> The um seems to me that our conversation tonight should shift to the what additional information do we need or what um what other research might be required? And if we can't come up with it right now, I'm sure staff would receive our inquiries in the next week or so. But anyway, that's my brain is saying I think we've gotten enough of the contour of the challenges >> and perhaps finding maybe a narrow space maybe. >> Would there be enough to say we're all for the lounge piece that that's not a we're not here to make a decision. >> Right. Right. Right. >> Okay. Go ahead, >> Miss Crawford. >> Madame Mayor, um, thinking on my feet, so staff, please step in if I'm thinking incorrectly that it may be I believe it'd be very helpful to know if there are certain things that are no, because you're you're doing a first reading based on an application that's come through, not something that we staff has proposed. And so if there's an absolute no or maybe that is good feedback for the applicant to hear then they need to go back and evaluate does that fit their business model. Do they and if not we don't have an application anymore they may withdraw. So um just thinking um we do it would be beneficial for staff and the applicant to provide as much feedback as possible and if there you know they may need time to think about it. I don't know. I'm just >> Sorry. Yeah, I if I could add too, I think that's a great point. Um, mayor and and members of the council, what I'm hearing, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but what I'm hearing are that the two requests that are in front of the council from the applicant, which are in an application and subject to all the 60-day rules. And you know, it's a little different as um city manager Crawford points out. It's different than you know, we're noodling a staff recommendation and trying to kind of come up with what's the best policy here. What we're actually doing is deciding whether we're going to approve or deny um an application for a text amendment and we have to do it within a certain period of time or you know the implication is that that it gets automatically approved if we don't do it within those timelines. Now, um I'm hearing, again, correct me if I'm I'm wrong, but I'm hearing that there's really no appetite from the the council to say yes to the two things that are being proposed, and that's to allow tobacco product shops in the downtown. you know, this is the broad category, tobacco product shops in the downtown as a conditional use. Or two, add this premium cigar lounge, which is has its own definition that the applicant has proposed, which is different from Blaine, different from the ones we other ones we've talked about, and is more of a a lounge rather than a retail shop. Um, and if that's the case, um, you know, I think staff is already planning to bring a resolution denying that, um, back, um, to the next meeting just because we need to do that and that's important and that's consistent with everything that we've at least heard from staff andor the planning commission. Um, I do like the idea though of still having staff take feedback, go back to the applicant and talk about whether they might want to withdraw or whether they might want to withdraw and submit a new application for something that might be more in line with what they're hearing tonight from the council. But it's it's really important not to lose sight of the fact that we do have to dispose of this application in some way, shape, or form, whether by approval, denial, or something in the middle. But I that's not that's something in the middle isn't always easy to get to um when you're working within the confines of the the 60-day rule and those kinds of things. So I just wanted to add that. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> And and uh mayor members of the I would just add um you know based on the recommendation from staff and from the planning commission the intent from staff is to bring forward a resolution for denial. So if the council had different direction, it would be helpful to hear that tonight. >> Any more direction? >> I think you you Yeah. I >> Right. >> As presented. It's a no. >> It's a no. As presented. >> Do we want to hear from the applicant at all? Sure. >> Yes. >> So if the applicant >> recommended >> Yeah, the applicant can come forward. >> Hi. >> Hi, Madame Mayor and members of the council. >> Hi. >> Settled. I can bring up slides if you choose to. Yeah, I would love the slides. Um, >> I'm Brian Schmiddale. I'm one of the co-founders of Founder Cigar Company. >> Does anybody need a restroom break before we continue? Thank you for taking the time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I was going to say I apologize. It doesn't look like the Timberwolves are doing well. So, if anyone had the game recorded, so >> And oh, they're not doing well. Not doing well. >> Oh, I thought they were doing well. So, >> that is not And what was your name? >> I I'm Angelo Feroni, one of the owners of Founder Cigar Company. Um, thank you, Jason. and Jason did a fantastic job laying out every single one of the hurdles that we've identified um through here. Uh the reason I have these two gentlemen up with me tonight is that these are graduates of Wiper Lake High School >> 2001. >> They are Oh, we'll get the the PowerPoint. >> I can do it. >> Love it. >> That's actually me with a full beard and long hair. So that's that's me right there. Um, this is some of our ownership team. And I know that this has been a long night. I have a lot of slides, but the reason that I'm, and I told these guys earlier, I was going to breeze through this, but the reason that we're here is because context matters. And showing you who we are and what we're trying to bring to the downtown White Bear Lake area is something I think is important. And the only reason that we're here is because these guys grew up in this community, graduated from this town, and we believe in the downtown, and we believe in White Bear. has been a destination for decades and we want to continue that on. Um so ownership team that's us recently at at a trade show in New Orleans. These are Nate and Brian as you can see graduates of 2001. Goodness gracious, you guys are old. um and both members of our United States military. Nate recently retired after over 20 years uh with the Air Force and Air Force Reserve. And Brian is currently with the Air Force Reserve out of Minneapolis. Our core values, this is important to us. This is how we operate. This is how we do things at our company. This is throughout everything that we do. So, community, consistency, American spirit, we define that as doing what's right when it's required of you. generosity and approachable. Um, approachable is something that we live by in everything that we do, our sales, our marketing. If you call the number on our website, it rings all three of our phones. So, one of us is going to answer that. Um, community is a big thing. This company started in October of 2020. If you can remember what was going on in 2020. Um, in March of 2020, I started smoking cigars every single Tuesday night with a group of guys. About 6 months later, I realized that my mental health was incredible. I was doing well. I was thriving when the world was shut down. Uh, and I was working in the basement of Brian's house. We were consulting at that time and I said, "Man, I'm doing really well right now." And I think it's cuz I'm getting weekly face-to-face interactions with some guys. Uh, and you're realizing that for us that was something incredibly important. We decided, Brian and I, to launch a cigar company as a way to trick people in into community. Um, it's cigars. And Council Member Walsh, you brought up a great point. Cigars are different than cigarettes. They are different than cannabis. They are different than other consumables. And we're going to go over that. Um, cigars are a community thing. They're around celebrations, weddings, graduations, college graduations, first jobs, babies, all that. It's something that you do together. You bring things, you bring people together through them. And when Brian and I looked at this, we saw that during COVID, mental health was through the floor. Suicide, depression, all that in the civilian world. And if you know the statistics in veteran suicide, these guys have seen it in their unit. Unfortunately, um veteran suicides are just an absolute abomination. And so we look at that as being something that for us, if I can trick you into spending quality time with someone, that is a win for us. So that's why we exist. We exist to be a catalyst for community. Our niche is approachable cigar experiences and our opportunity is we want to provide a clean safe gathering space around the idea of cigars. Oh, another thing that we do is we do things different. These are a couple of the charities that we've worked with. We have a whole part of our company that is corporate gifting. So, um, I mean, John Daly and his the professional golfer, we did cigar boxes for him, uh, for the Pittsburgh Penguins, for Hometown Heroes, for Cigars for Warriors, the local cigars and baseball chapter. We've been involved with that since our the inception of our company, Jack's Basket. Um, I mean, part of what we do is cigar gifts are cool. Custom cigar boxes are cool. It gets people's attention. It's something that is not normal. And so for us to be able to help charities, we've even hosted parts on our website so people can drive to tobacco compliant sales and storage through a charity aspect. We're doing that for charities. That's just some of our cigar boxes. So this is the building on Third Street as we envision it. This is how it used to look. And that part on the right there, you talk about property values, you talk about upkeep, you talk about are we going to lift up the community? Well, that's what it used to look like. It was a a pub. I never frequented said pub, but yeah. Um, these guys are familiar with Hulahans. Um, it is currently under renovation. So, Eli is running this. He's doing a fantastic job. And Eli is investing in this community. He's um purchasing and um again lifting up buildings because he believes in the downtown area. And we really want this to be a staple. um cigars in this community with the yach club, with the golf course, with Delwood, with the premium uh level and support and brick house alchemy, some of these other fixtures of your community. This we see this being lockep with the brick houses and the alchemies and not the neon sign cigarette stores. Again, again, if you've been in Brick House, and I hope you have, we want this to feel like a premium experience. You're going to walk in, it's not going to be any neon signs. There's not going to be any cigarettes. There's not going to be any vape or chewing tobacco or anything that, you know, 15-year-old kids try to get their hands on. These are premium uh cigars. And again, you asked a lot of very good questions. The state defines a premium cigar and other tobacco. So there's precedence and there is the state defines these and views these as different. Again just trying to give you an idea. One of the things that I want to address and I think I got the answer for this already. Um it's really good hearing you talk about our application because when we applied for this we didn't know what this process was going to be like and my brother-in-law is an attorney so I understand if I don't ask him the right question he's not going to give me the answer I was looking for. Um, and so I think that by just hearing you guys talk tonight, we went too broad in our application. And we completely agree. We don't want tobacco downtown. That's not what we want. We don't want to say, "Hey, White Bear Lake, you should open up every corner to tobacco in your downtown area. That's not what we want." Um, and even when we use the language lounge, again, we're in this industry. We eat, breathe, sleep this industry. That cigar retail and lounge are interchangeable to us. And so, but again, if we're not applying for the right thing or if we're not defining something as you guys would define that, we want to know that. Um, another point on that too with the Minnesota Clean Air Act, and we're going to get into that. Um, I think the reason that, and we've talked with the planning and zoning, um, there's precedence in the state, we're not asking for something that hasn't been done before. There's also precedence for 24-hour um, private lounges that allow smoking. There's there's three of them I can think of. One just opened up in Plymouth. There's one in Luring Park in Minneapolis. It's a 247 access member only exclusive area that allows for smoking. There's another one. It's it's essentially a private co-working space that also allows smoking. All three of those are compliant with the Minnesota Clean Air Act under definition. And I think what we were trying to what we were trying to set up is that if White Bear Lake based on your definitions had issue with the sampling or the um smoking aspect of it, we were proposing that there is precedence for a membersonly smoking area. So again, we're we're trying to understand what your goals are and also using the precedence of the state, find out what's the best fit, whether that's as the city attorney defined it, um a tobac a premium cigar retail space that allows for sampling and that the sampling is the upstairs room or if it is a membersonly um private area that allows for smoking as well. We we we want to show that we're coming into this open-handed, trying to find the best way for this to be a win-win for both you and what we're trying to accomplish. Um, this is before I before I go to this, that's a really important screen. Um, the one thing that we why we think that this meets your definition of the downtown use is that the downtown use doesn't permit adult only spaces. you permit. When when we think about this, the way that it's defined currently in White Lake is you lump it in with cannabis, you lump it in with hookah, cigarettes, all that. There is a legal definition for premium tobacco. There's also just a functional difference in tobacco, cannabis, hookah, all those other things. um you allow for alchemy, you allow for um establishments that in in your definitions you allow for micro distilleries, breweries that we view this use as the same as we would a micro brewery where you have a tap room with sampling which allows for consumption on property. That's how we'd ask the council to view this use. This is the big one. So cigarettes versus cigars on the left here you can see your classic cigarette and you can see everything that goes into that cigarette acetone cyitric acid ammoniac urethane toolene arsenic you know all the things that I can't pronounce that's mass-produced machine rolled uh machine made chemicals additives all this a major misconception of cigars is that a cigar is just a big cigarette no it's not you can See on the right there is one ingredient in tobacco in a premium cigar. It's sunrown natural tobacco leaves. Um it takes about 300 300 hands touch that cigar by the time it is rolled and gets out to the consumer. It's a handgrown product. It's harvested by hand. It's rolled by hand. It's dried by hand. It's filtered by hand. It's separated by hand. It's color matched by hands. The bands are applied by hand. It is an I've been in these factories. They're incredible. Um and that is all that's in that. It's not a It's the other major thing. You don't inhale a cigar, cigarettes, u marijuana, hookah. Um you inhale those. This is you don't inhale it. It's for the experience. It's for the taste. It's for the flavor. Um so those are what I would like to draw your attention to as the major differences between what we're proposing and the general definition that's been laid out. So again, we went over the Minnesota tax code. the Minnesota tax code. So, this is from the tax tobacco tax. Premium cigars and tobacco are taxed differently. Cigarette, um, snuff, um, you know, nonpremium tobacco. So, we talked about the Swiss or sweets. Um, those are in just the general tobacco, that's taxed at 95% in the state. Premium cigars are hand constructed cigar wrapper made from entirely whole tobacco and a filler and binder made entirely of tobacco. That's the legal definition. us the tobacco tax definition with a wholesale price over $2, 95% of wholesale sales price or 50 50 cents per cigar. So every single cigar that we receive into our humidor in Blaine, we're currently office out of Blaine. We pay 50 cents a cigar because every single one of our cigars meets that definition of premium cigar. The Minnesota Clean Air Act and this is where I want to just draw the attention to the definition. I've talked to I know every single smoking lounge and again I'm I apologize smoking lounge is part of my vocabulary. That's what I use. But tobacco retail store that allows for sampling. There are many of them. There's probably over a dozen of them in the state. Again, we're not asking for something that hasn't been done before. Every single owner of those establishments that I talked to say we comply with the Minnesota Clean Air Act as written and we don't try to further define or restrict what is written. So based off of what the state has written, based off what the state has defined, um, every single tobacco retail store that allows for sampling, including the ones in Maple Grove, Blaine, Ingrove Heights, Eden Prairie, Still Water, Ramsay, they all comply with the Minnesota Clean Air Act. Um, one one thing that I will say, the way that you have defined it, um, sampling based off free samples, your definition is actually federally illegal. Uh so the FDA prohibits uh tobacco manufacturers and tobacco stores to handle free cigars. So the definition that you have further defined the Minnesota Cleaner Act is illegal based off the FDA um restrictions on um sampling. Um the thing too is the tobacco stores are 90 90% um revenue by premium tobacco. Again, we're complying with the statute as written, and we're just asking the city to interpret the statute as written, not as I don't know what word I'm looking for. I've been sitting in this room a long time, but not as what we we feel like it should be. I have nine pages prepared for things. I also eat, breathe, sleep, you know, this every single day. I welcome the discussions. They've been great. Um, and would love to provide any clarity that I might be able to provide. >> Council want to modify. >> Yes. And we we do want to modify our application. And it sounds like I have to withdraw or I I assume there's no way for us to modify the current application. >> Uh, who has that answer? >> It totally depends. Um, you know, th this was noticed for a public hearing in front of the planning commission, which is statutoily required. Um, you have a little leeway to change, you know, the the way an ordinance is written after it goes to a public hearing, but you really have to have a bonafide um public hearing so that people that care about what you might want to put in the ordinance know what we want to put put in it. >> U, so it it depends on the extent of the changes. So, I'm not sure if I can answer that question. >> And and the the other reason I ask is because we've we've worked with the Minnesota State Tobacco Department. The way that they define and pay the tobacco tax. I went and I testified in front of um the comm the House committee. It went through committee. There's a bill in process right now for tobacco tax. um because we're helping the way that they currently define the tobacco tax is um they treat it more like a consumable that goes bad where we want it to be treated like wine. Uh cigar is like wine. It's better with age. And so the way we we we went in front of both sides of the house, both sides of the committee, and there was zero opposition. We're helping them rewrite the statute that more helps small businesses. Um, if I receive 20,000 cigars, I have to write a check to the state of Minnesota and those cigars will sit in my humidor for three years based off design. So, the reason I asked that question is we would we would love to help you define this properly because we understand this and even some of the things that you guys have said about the narrow definition. Well, it exists. There is the state defines these. We we we would want to offer to help uh help you guys achieve that definition. >> Okay. Does anybody have any questions for the applicant? >> No. >> Well, no. Seeing none. >> Um, >> it's just quickly a sidebar. I have two things for council. Um, one is if you want to go past 10:30, you need to vote to do that. >> Um, but then it it seems like the cleanest >> path for you would be to withdraw, re-evaluate all of this, and reapply. >> Okay. city attorney. Correct me if I'm wrong. >> Yeah. And again, that probably depends on what you're looking for out of the ordinance. Um because, you know, candidly, just based on what I heard you just say, based on what I read in the materials in your application, I'm not sure if >> I have any idea what you want to do. And more importantly, I I don't know. I mean, you talked a lot about what you do and um definitions and and the difference between cigars and tobacco and that might all be great. Um but I also don't know if I heard a lot of support from the council for um some maybe some maybe none. I I couldn't tell. Um so I think you know you've gotten a lot of feedback tonight hopefully from the council which should help you. Um, but most importantly, just with respect to your current application, um, if that's not the application that you want the council to act on, you might want to withdraw it and come up with something that is more consistent with what works for you and maybe with what you've heard tonight. I I just don't know what that is. And it sounds like, and I don't want to put words in your mouth either, but when you when you talk to Blaine and Maple Grove and the way that they've defined tobacco retail with that allows for sampling, is it your opinion that that interpretation is consistent with the Minnesota Clean Air Act? >> I I don't want to give you a legal opinion on their ordinances. I haven't talked to them. Um, all I did was I pulled up the definition of what they have in their code. >> Okay. Um and so and and wanted to draw distinctions from what was in your application compared to what >> you were at at least or folks were using as examples of how we could get there because there they seem to be very different. >> Yeah. >> Um you know I I don't think anything in Blaine what I would say is I don't think anything in Blaine's definition runs a foul of the Clean Indoor Air Act because what they allow is a certain use that complies with the Clean Indoor Air Act. Um, and ultimately the the city council doesn't decide what might violate the Clean Indo air act or not. That's not its job. The city staff doesn't do that. Um, but I think staff asked a really good question to me when looking at your application because what you're asking the council to do is make a policy decision. What what's right for our community? And I think tangential to that, maybe not the main thing, but it's important for the council to know when we're considering policy decisions, is what they want to do consistent with the law, right? >> And that that's why they asked me to to answer that question. >> And I think to give context on part of that application was using the precedents of the three private lounges or private um private membership only establishments that allow for smoking that are also compliant with the Minnesota Clean Air Act. So, we look at that as um with the two separate entities of based on the definition that Maple Grove uses and Blaine uses, it's a tobacco retail store that allows for sampling. We're we're fine using that definition with the upstairs being the place for sampling. Um just bringing the attention that there is, again, we're not trying to do something that has been done before. There are that I can think of three private establishments that allow for 247 access and a smoking environment. Then there are a dozen plus locations in the state that are allowing sampling as council member Walsh saw in Maple Grove. >> Yeah. Go ahead. I just wanted to respond uh to regarding the upstairs and we are talking about zoning tonight but director Lindall did talk about the licensing which comes out of my office and as you're proposing that upstairs doesn't comply with a tobacco license. So that's another hurdle that you will have which I think council member Edberg talked about. So, there are several hurdles to meet and I'm not positive that you heard feedback that is supportive of that upstairs lounge as presented. >> Okay. >> Council member G. >> Yeah, I just had a question. Appreciate you sharing um appreciate um you sharing that you're veteran, too, even though my spouse is a Marine, so I don't know if I can get behind the Air Force. Um joking. I'm joking. Completely joking. Um if you unders um but I really appreciate that and I understand the importance of having those spaces to gather it does coming together right for those I I believe too that that can save lives in what um ma city manager Crawford referenced getting there with the licensing even though I understand that piece and importance would be a lot of hurdles so I can't speak to everybody and I understand that's not necessarily what we're talking but I also don't want to you know waste your time that could I get there for that piece. No, you know, while you're speaking in my head, I was while you were speaking in my head, I was thinking, okay, could there be a place if based on the definition like you said the premium scars, they can buy them and I don't know if the VFW has space for those things or you know what whatever spots, but um I could probably look at okay just being the retail maybe with the zoning in that piece, but for the licensing it, I think when um you presented it was like five licensing things we'd have to look at based on the seating, the lounge, it would just be a lot for me to get there. Even though in my heart >> I understand that piece of gathering and I don't know if you'd have any interest in it without that I guess is kind of what I'm wondering. >> Right. So that's what needs to be decided and um you know we have to make decisions for the future of this for the business and not only for you but it would run with the land as well. So we have to really consider that. So >> um >> and I I appreciate the feedback on that too and completely understand where you're coming from where we have to understand what the ripple effect is going to be with policy >> right >> mom was a state senator get the get how you have to not only look at today but also what's going to happen down the road >> um >> the one thing that I would ask is the definition that you have for sampling is that consistent with federal law and also the the items that you have in there. um is that based off of um bad experiences you've had with locations that can do this or um and that's also where I look at okay if if it has to be two separate entities one where is retail one is private establishment um does that strengthen the case to try to accomplish what we're trying to accomplish a safe gathering space for people to do this adults consenting adults to do that um or based off the definition of a tobacco retail with sampling as the Minnesota Cleaner Act, as Maple Grove and Blaine have laid it out. Would that allow for the area above? Um, so I guess I'm looking at it as a crossroads on the application. >> Did you want to say something? >> Uh, mayor, members of the council, I would just add one procedural note. I just want to emphasize um that came up during planning commission in that um the city does have a policy that says if your apply for any sort of land use application doesn't have to be a text amendment any land use application and you are your application is denied you can't um reapply for substantially the same thing for a calendar year um or for a year I should say. So, um that's just one more um item for the applicant to consider if they think that the council is moving towards a denial, right? >> Um and they plan to modify their application. >> Okay. Thank you. And council member Edberg, you had a question. >> So, that's I was going to the procedural conversation. Um I want to give you the opportunity to put your best foot forward. If it works, fine. And if it doesn't, well, the chips that's where the chips fall. >> Um, so I'm curious about I don't I don't know how to think you you're asking me to stretch a whole lot of stuff. >> Appreciate that. >> And um I'm not ready to tell you what I think tonight. And so whether it is in your interest to not withdraw. Okay. The purpose of withdrawing is to give another option. But if you don't know what the option is that might work, then you've kind of we've kind of defeated that purpose. And so I'm trying to figure out what is the process that is available to you and to us to allow us to think to tell you what you you think and then >> you know if it's not going to work withdraw so that you could offer a different alternative that might work. I don't know. It's like that this is the which which domino falls first and I don't know what the answer to that is. What's our practice and and process for for doing that? >> They would submit uh Mayor Council Member Edberg they would submit in writing to Mr. Lindall uh that they are withdrawing or if not then this will be brought back to um the May 26th meeting with a resolution for denial. >> Yeah. And I believe >> and if they and if it is denied then they would not be able to apply for substantially the same thing for 12 months. >> And I would add too I mean a lot of applicants withdraw for other reasons. They they see the writing on the wall and they don't want something out in the public forum that effectively makes findings about why this is a bad idea for a specific community. Um, and they also might not want to have staff go through the exercise of a bunch of paperwork just to put together things that we know are going to happen. Now, they don't have to withdraw. Of course, that that's not required. We're not telling them they have to do that. It's just it's part of the decision-m process. And so, um, >> and I'm going to interrupt for a second because we have to vote. >> May I move we move we allow ourselves to meet past 10:30? >> Second. >> All those in favor? >> I. >> Oh, any discussion? How long past 10:30? >> I can be brief. >> I don't I don't I don't know that I need I don't think we need to set a time on that. No, >> we just suspension of our rule or or whatever the whatever the right terminology is. Do >> you want to limit it to give us 30 minutes to 11? >> I I wouldn't put a time on it. I just beyond 10:30. >> I don't want to be here that long. I'm with you. I'm great. Right. Okay. >> All those in favor? >> Any opposed? >> N. >> Okay. Do noted. All right. >> And I you bring up an excellent point and that's where I feel torn right now because I feel like there are two ways that I present this. One would be based off the definition as presented in Blaine and Maple Grove which allow for sampling. And if you have frequented or even seen those establishments, sampling is um pretty broad um even based off the definition for the Minnesota Clean Air Act. So that's one thing that we could submit with the intention that we would allow sampling in the facility as defined and allowed by the Minnesota Clean Air Act. Uh the other one would be essentially we would submit an application for two uses. One would be the retail facility as council member Walsh said having that as you know because when we when we met with planning and zoning we said hey we're not pres you know we're not presenting another olive oil or knickknack or you know shakurerie store which don't get me wrong those are fantastic um but one of the things that we feel like is is missing is is an application like this and so that's where council member Edgar bride um I feel torn because I feel like there's two ways that I and propose this that have clear precedences in the state of Minnesota as applicable and um compliant with the Minnesota Clear Clean Air Act. Um I love open forum discussion. So I do have a way that we can sit down for roughly an hour, hour and 15 minutes maybe in a fire and discuss this further if anyone wants to take us up on that. But, um, >> I I just want to add to I mean, I I appreciate the the good discussion about the Clean Indoor Air Act and whether this is okay and where sampling, what that means, what's allowed. It's also worth just reminding the council, the applicant, um, anyone watching that, you know, there's also a more important question here. Is this an appropriate land use >> for the city? I mean, this is a zoning question. And this is a policy question based on is it appropriate for a specific district in downtown. Now whether it's legal or not legal, whether there's five of them, 500 of them around the state, that's irrelevant when it comes to is this an appropriate land use um in that area. And I don't want to lose sight of that, but I think you've gotten a lot of good feedback tonight. Um and you can decide what you want to do with that feedback and you have options. >> Right. >> Right. So I think it's something that that you have to go back and kind of decide. >> Okay. >> Valid. >> Yeah. >> Yep. >> Okay. Are we anything else? Thank you so much. >> Yeah. Thank you for your time. >> Thank you. Thanks for coming in. >> All right. Um we are at item 9. Oh yeah, sorry. >> 9A uh concept plan review of 1900 Weber Serenity Senior Care Center uh street parking lot expansion. Mr. Lindal, thank you. >> Thank you, mayor. Uh members of the city council, the end before you is um under the discussion portion of your agenda and it is a concept plan proposal as you mentioned to expand the parking lot for the Serenity Senior Care Facility um at 1900 uh Weber Street. Um the reason that we're uh uh seeing a concept plan proposal tonight is in order to grant their request, the city would have to approve an amendment to the plan unit development approval for this site. And the city's zoning standards say that if you're amending a plan unit development, um it's the same process as whether you were starting new and it requires you to go through the concept plan approval process. Um so I I'll I'll I'll be try to be very succinct and focused in the information that I give you. So again, uh it's R3 zoning, um which is traditional residential. Um this institutional use is allowed in that district. Um subject to in the new code what are called civic building standards which creates design and layout standards uh for parking lots as a in addition to the build that building type. um guided by the comprehensive plan as a public or semi-public use um and the PUB permitted the original uh use. Um this again is a lot of background about uh originally constructed in 1956. In 2012, the PUD was established uh to uh approve some renovations that happened on the property. Um Serenity in since that time period purchased two of the adjacent properties to the northwest. um and has made them part of their uh property and that's we're proposing to add the parking in this case. Um and again PUD is necessary to approve that request. Um when you look at PUD applications um overall um they are allowed uh they are intended to allow flexibility for development standards in return for a higher quality development in general. In the 2012 review of this, it uh was deemed that the senior care uh facility was a critical use for an aging population and uh applicable to White Bear Lake. Um this is a overhead that shows the existing conditions. I think most people are probably fairly familiar with this site. Um the existing parking lot is in the middle of the block on the north side adjacent to Weber uh uh uh drive, I believe. uh maintains it contains 105 parking stalls and has a zero foot setback to the right ofway side on Weber. Um while if you're standing out there today, you would still see some what's commonly referred to as boulevard area, but that's all public rightway. There is no private land between the beginning of the end of their parking lot and the city's public uh right ofway. So, uh, this shows, uh, an overview of the of what they're proposing to do and again expand the parking lot to the west. Um, it's 45 stalls total, but with some reconfiguration, it's a net gain of 35 uh from the 105 to 35 additional stalls. Um, it includes three new parking lot islands. The deviations that are would be addressed during the plan unit development is continuation of that zero foot setback to the west along Weber um is the probably the most notable thing. Um there is a standard also in the code that says uh you need parking lot islands um every 10 stalls. They have one portion of their design that has um 13 stalls without a parking lot island. Um and then um they have one parking lot island that is seven feet wide as opposed to that minimum requirement being 8 feet. Um as part of the concept plan review process, you probably remember they required to hold a public hearing that did occur on that site or exc uh in the chapel of that site. Um notice sent to the surrounding um area. Four people attended. residents had or those four had questions about on street parking, construction timeline and practices, lighting and property maintenance. Um, at the planning commission review, they were generally supportive of this concept to the applicant. And one of the uh neighbors, Andrew uh Enri In Enright, I hope I'm pronouncing his name correctly, um did uh come and tell the planning commission that he had concerns about just the construction noise and activity that could occur in his neighborhood throughout that process. Um the review process again, concept plan went had a neighborhood meeting planning commission uh last month and then a city council tonight. um the applicant um realizes that they haven't completed every step in the concept plan process but already has applied for the PUD amendment. Uh moving forward because of the um Memorial Day holiday, the planning commission meeting is moved up in May. So that occurs on the 18th, so a week uh from tonight. And so they have applied for that PUD amendment and would be on the planning commission meeting on the 18th and then back to city council. Um because this this is technically an ordinance amendment. So it would have to have two readings, the 28th and July 9th moving forward. Sorry, the 26th. I'm sorry. Thank you for the correction. Um, and so with that, um, again, uh, you can take, you can provide comments back from the applicant. I'm happy to answer any questions about, um, the proposal or the public, uh, uh, uh, excuse me, neighborhood meeting or planning commission meeting. Um, and so that would take comment. >> Does anybody have any comments? I I want to thank the applicant for you win the prize. Give us the bad basketball. >> So, if you want to if you want to come on up. >> This is a hockey state anyway. Who cares? >> Does anyone have any questions? >> The Timber Wolves. >> My name is Jim Johnson. I'm with Pope Design Group. Uh we are the architects working on it on the project. Um Ariel is the executive director back there. She's going to provide some additional information too as well. So, uh thank you for looking into this project. We are really trying to um add additional parking to the facility. as you know, the staff increases, wanting to get parking off the streets, um get people in the parking lot where they belong. Uh provide some nice landscaping for that parking lot. We added some additional islands that were um not required, but we put them in there just to get some more green space in there. Um I know we need to add one more down in that where it's got 13 stalls. We'll take care of that. So I I think it's um and once again the you know the PUD amendment is to continue that zero lot line along the Weber Street which is u you know uh provides a more continuous parking circulation in the parking lot and not not creating confusion. So I think that's sort of the the basis of the project. And if you have any questions >> does anyone have any questions or comments? Council member Edber. >> Thank you, Madam Mayor. Um, does the how much on street parking currently is used and and how much of that might be reduced through the addition of this uh of this space? >> Uh, I wonder if Ariel >> Yeah. Can you >> I don't know a specific number. I Hi, I'm Ariel. I'm our executive director. Um, especially on Weber Street, we have quite a bit happening back into those couple blocks off the side streets. I know that's something that's come up quite a bit with our neighbors of making sure that that then we are communicating to our staff that we get those staff into the lot once we expand. >> And once you move staff into the What do you do with uh with the visitors of residents? Okay. What I'm looking at, yes, the parking on Weber has been an issue in that in that community, in that neighborhood for a decade or more all 16 years that I've been on. >> Um, and I can appreciate that you have control over where staff park and to get them off the street would be welcome. Um but if there if those spaces are simply going to be refilled with other you know guests and visitors >> um it doesn't quite quite solve that problem. >> I guess >> am I imagining that or what how do you think about that? I guess tell me if I'm answering this right, but our understanding or what we're planning with this is that we're having I know I had mentioned staff, but that we're having all individuals redirected into the parking lot. >> All vehicles. >> Guests and guests and staff. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Council member Garola. >> Yeah. I had a similar parking question. My son used to do music together classes at Serenity back in the day and we were always able to park in that northeast lot and there always seem to be parking there and then parking on the opposite side on the street and then I had them I obviously drive by there but I've been more intentional this week going by there like twice daily with my kids cuz I live over there. it can be on our route and I haven't and that's qualitative again because it's just my own personal but is there is that lot underutilized that other far lot because I always see spots available and again that's qualitative but like is it just people don't want to park there and walk that far or from the distance? >> I would say it very much depends on time of day. So, I would say looking out at our parking lot, especially since we've started planning this. I've been more attentive to what times of day is it, it's 100% shift change. So, that kind of 2 to 300 p.m. time frame, it is overflooded because we've got the new shift coming on, the shift coming off on all areas of the campus. Um, there's a couple other shift change times that aren't as not as many staff members, but I would say generally what I see is between 10 and probably 400 p.m. is when we're seeing the most overflow parking. We do have that small parking lot on Second A. That does stay fairly full as well, just because that's a lot of our assisted living traffic because that has a designated separate entrance. >> Council member Walsh. Well, thanks. This is a This is in Ward One. I've had, you know, not that many, but some concerns about parking on Weber and this is great. More spots. More spots. It's a great neighbor, great great facility. So, uh, that's the feedback you're looking for. 100%. >> Okay. Anybody else feedback? >> I had one more. >> Okay. Council member Gorilla, >> uh, in it. So, there's that house on the very far end. Are you There's like kind of a line of trees there for that house. Is that house occupied? Yeah, >> it is. >> Okay. >> And I'm wondering like will that privacy be maintained? Because when I drove by today, I thought, okay, if that's expanding in parking lot, there is kind of like a nice privacy you have there. And I was wondering if that with construction would be maintained in the plan. It looked like yes in the plans, but I wasn't sure. And then my other piece was just kind of wondering was it six trees that are coming down for the parking lot and is there any way to save those? >> To answer your first question, um uh you know, obviously we're not going to touch any of the trees that are on that residential lot. And in in addition to that, we are adding trees to the parking lot on that side as well as a buffer. And then there's also a um storm water basin that's being built there. So the actual parking lot is um 30 30 feet away roughly from from the property line something like that. So um I I think the the amount of landscaping there will be increased. >> What's the total amount of because those are really mature trees coming down be to take be taken down. >> Yes. >> Uh yeah there are and I apologize I think it is six trees. Um, those trees are actually in pretty rough shape if you if you look at them. Um, >> ashbor or are they >> I'm just wondering if there's a way if they're healthy and observing if there's a way to possibly >> they look like they're on the outside if there's a way to keep some if possible. >> Yeah, those um do we have a slide of the landscape? But um most of those trees are actually right in the parking area. >> What about with those medians? Like if they put those in, could those little islands be with >> those have trees planted and >> but like keeping the mature ones I'm talking about >> going around the the mature trees. >> The trees that are right next to the building. >> They're kind Well, they're like in like kind of >> that are in that where those houses came down. There's some bigger ones. I I would agree. I think they kind of look like they are in rough shape, but I am no >> I think most of those are not going to survive. They're they're coming down, >> but we're >> But can we confir I'm just wondering if there's any again I understand, but if there's a way to keep them in the meeting if that's worth exploring because it's it's easy for us to say, but we've had this situation before with parking lots where they said, "Oh, those trees aren't well." And then arborists have said, "Well, those trees could survive." So, that's what I'm kind of getting at. If we could if you maybe my direction would be if you could look at more into that. >> Sure, you can. can keep the tree and >> or if they actually are in health decline like you say or if they are actually >> healthy trees. It's hard to tell with trees especially this time of year sometimes. >> Right. Right. Yeah. We'll look into that. Sure. >> Thank you. >> Anyone else? >> I don't I do not object to the expansion. It it seems to make sense, especially if it alleviates parking on Weber and the surrounding side streets. Adding 35 spaces seems to me seems to make sense. Um that would be my comment. >> And it sounds like the neighbors were in agreement that then it will get the what was their feedback? >> I I think the neighbors, the gentleman, the Andrew that was here uh for the planning commission, they were more concerned with the construction um clogging up streets with construction traffic, noise, that kind of stuff. So, that's something we'll address when we get the contractor involved. >> So, did they seem kind of like they want to get the streets off the the cars off the street and into the parking lot? >> I would say so. Some of the questions were exactly the first question that we had was get making sure that we're getting them off the streets. >> Right. Right. Okay. All right. Thank you so much and thanks for waiting and you guys all get some kind of a special prize. I don't know what it is, though. Thank you so much. >> Got a couple of my >> All right. Um >> item 10, communications from the city manager. >> Thank you, mayor, members of the council. Um again, just the uh public works open house is next um Wednesday. I need to just read the slide. I'm a little too tired. From 5:00 to 7:00 p.m. at um public works facility. And then a reminder for the city council that you have a work session next Tuesday. Um it's actually joint work session with the HA housing needs assessment update uh comprehensive plan discussion and uh you'll meet the new uh police chief. Um and to that end our our new police chief started two days ago. So that's all I have tonight. Thank you, mayor. >> Excellent. Um all right. Uh do I have a motion to adjurnn? So move. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I. >> Any opposed? >> All right. >> So just >> we're ajour