e e e e we're going to call the meeting to order will the clerk please note those in attendance be noted thank you will you please rise and join me in the Pledge of Allegiance IED to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all all right item 2 a minutes of the regular city council meeting on January 28 2025 I would entertain a motion to approve those minutes have a motion a second all those in favor say I I any opposed motion carries minutes are approved item three adoption of the agenda we have one addition we're going to add an item 8 B which is the police Sergeant's Union agreement if there are no other changes or Corrections amendments to the agenda entertain a motion to adopt the agenda I have a motion a second all those in favor say I I any opposed we have an agenda item four consent agenda I'd entertain a motion to approve the consent agenda motion a second all those in favor say I I any oppos motion carries the consent agenda is approved item five visitors and presentations we have the Community Development biannual report Mr lindall when you're ready members of the city council so um tonight is the Community Development by annual report and so there's uh twice a year we check in with the city council report back on activities in the Community Development Department so um in August I believe you saw the first half of the year and now what we we've done annually is in Janu or now in February I guess here we present to you the full uh activity report for the last uh year so just as a way of by way of reminder um the primary dues of the Community Development Department include long range planning short range planning different uh special projects uh zoning Administration housing work Economic Development and then the building department uh uh includes the uh plan review um inspections uh rental inspections and code enforcement some of the bigger projects the Community Development or excuse me the council may remember Community Development uh working on in 2024 including the updates to the city's zoning regulations uh related to cannabis use or new cannabis regulations from the state um the county roie branding and marketing uh uh uh strategy um assisting the um engineering department with the downtown Mobility study and then of course a lot of our time has been spent on the update of the zoning code which is an ongoing project looking first at um information from the building division um Again by just by way of background uh the building department reviews uh billing permits and uh does inspections related to those permits um just small side note much like cities across the state of our size we do contract um our electrical inspections out as a uh special service but otherwise we do all commercial residential and institutional uh construction projects uh review and inspections in both Whitebear Lake and mamei and so sorry typo here that should be 2024 uh the department reviewed 3537 permits uh with a valuation of just over $110 million and $1.2 million in permit uh fees um what you see here on this slide you might remember from uh last year as well shows an overall trend line of uh building uh permit activity in the billing division um since 2010 uh what you see see a couple notable things is uh you know we certainly saw a spike in you know an upward Trend in 2021 and 2022 with the school districts projects throughout the community and not to mention just you know the the north campus but then the projects throughout the community and then the lochner uh residential development also uh accounted for a lot of this activity um what you'll see here I think in the next couple slides I show you is um while we had a spike a few years ago and we are seeing you know a um a return a downward a little bit of a downward Trend but a return to more of what you see is kind of the normal level of activity over the long term before this so and as I mentioned before the valuations correspondingly show a downward Trend related to um the number of permits also being down but you also see I you know believe that that's um leveling out to the area that was um uh you know more of the of the traditional levels of the past moving on to code enforcement um you'll see again here the trend line of cases through the last several years um we average over 2019 2024 just under 600 cases uh per uh Code Enforcement cases a year um in uh last year we were uh in 20 I'm sorry in 2023 where we're closer uh to that 600 level um or down to about 500 I think in 23 we'll see here in a second on the slide so we're down a little bit this year but again in line with the levels that we've seen in the past several years um just as a summary you can kind of see the percentage of activities um related to code enforcement you may remember in the halfway through the year we reported that um we' um um INSP our code enforcement issues were up especially this year because of the wet spring that we had so they represented a larger proportion than in past years um usually the largest proportion is in that ruse and exterior storage category we also just show you just as a kind of a point of of reference here the distribution of Code Enforcement cases across the city and based on the five Wards throughout the community generally they're pretty evenly distributed uh this particular year there was a slightly higher rate in ward 3 moving on to planning department activities again you see um recent activity levels here um what jumps out on this slide Is 2020 um what you'd see the reason for that is it's covid related what you'll see here in in a second is a lot of the activity that happened in the planning department slowed down even though there were still some projects and building permit activity going on um but generally in 2024 we're in the you know kind of normal range for the past several years so the biggest category in the planning department is this questions and inquiry so that's phone calls meetings talking with people about different projects and things that they're doing and that again kind of coming back to that 2020 year with covid is when those conversations that biggest level activity really uh dropped off um taking a looking look at more specifically for the data for 2024 um you'll see this distributed about the number of cases that we have um we had uh 724 in the first half of the Year down slightly 681 in the second half of the Year overall but cases are um trending in in in kind of the normal level for the past several years um that really summarizes the data from the Community Development department but I'd be happy to take any questions thank you for the report Mr lindall sounds like even though things are down staying busy and there's a lot going on as usual Council any questions for Mr lindel all right thank you very much all right item 5B Sports Center annual report Mr Juba thank you mayor and Cil members good evening uh tonight we have the annual Sports Center report for you uh 20 2024 was another solid uh solid year of operations at the Sports Center Sports Center is the proud home of White Bear Lake area high school girls hockey the Whitebear Lake Area Hockey Association uh the city's learn to skate program and figure skating program 2024 event highlights include uh three three spring Ice shows which were very well attended uh I think I attended the Friday night show they usually do a Friday night uh Saturday night and Sunday matina um and uh the fun if you've never experienced once so I'd encourage you to attend uh 2025 just a quick plug the uh dates for those shows are April 25th through the 27th and the theme is blades on Broadway so should be a fun one uh other events in 2024 were the winter holiday show the 31st Annual skating competition uh 10 high school girls games nearly a 100 youth games and scrimmages and nine youth tournaments which if you've ever been through there on a weekend during a Youth Tournament is uh very busy Place brings a lot of activity to the area and then of course there's countless hours of practice training uh things going on at that facility leading up to all of those events uh maintenance wise in 2024 uh was a a bit different year than we've experienced uh lately just because we uh removed the ice sheet for the first time since the renovation so that used to be an annual thing uh when the equipment was really old and and things were failing we'd have to tear out the ice do all the necessary repairs check everything and then reinstall it that usually takes place in May and we hadn't done that since I hadn't had to do it um since the uh the uh remodel in 2018 uh and some power outages really is what led to that was uh obviously when the power goes out and uh it's harder to maintain that sheet so there was enough uh degradation that they decided to uh do that last year and that was successful um also now the solar array that's on the uh on the Sports Center if you recall had some installation issues so it went up came back down uh but has now been uh fully operational uh for quite sometimes resulted in uh over $23,000 in Energy savings since that's uh been up and operational so that's good to see uh new improvements you can see on the pictures here these are kind of fun things that uh the uh the uh excuse me wall of recognition for the figure skating uh figure skaters and that's a partnership project with the parents of the the figure skating folks uh celebrating their involvement at the sports center and uh just to note we have three skaters from our figure skating program that uh skate for Disney On Ice and Tour all over the world to to do that so that's a that's a fun point of Pride for the uh figure skating program and then also the wall of tradition uh which was put up this year by the Hockey Association uh celebrating just their their Heritage and uh a lot of the the players that have gone on to do big things in the hockey program and then on the revenue side uh just for operation very much business as usual in in 2024 there's an uptick in the skate school program uh which is notable and then a continued reduction in the uh revenue from live barn and live Barn was uh peaked during the pandemic and that's the the uh streaming service that's installed at the rink so people can subscribe to that and uh watch games from anywhere and obviously that was a big deal when nobody could go anywhere and and uh it still generates significant Revenue but not nearly what it did uh during those uh challenging times during the pandemic so outside of those two things uh everything else was fairly consistent on the revenue side and obviously we'll get a a full picture of the financials including the expenditures when the audit is done uh here uh in the near future so that's what I have for you for a report if there's any questions be happy to answer thank you Mr juet do you recall what the total cost of the solar panels were at project uh I'm sorry mayor I do not recall just because that was part of the the larger project that uh had a lot of different components throughout the city no worries all right Council any questions council member edberg thank you mayor uh Mr jubo at various times though not recent we've had conversation about how the uh how our Sports Center generates off-site revenue for the city for for businesses in the city uh we bring in a lot of guests and uh visitors some have have to travel a distance day overnight Etc um I'm not expecting that you have this on the top of your head but if you have any insight or have there been any conversations um in the past year about do we have any sense of what that uh what that larger impact is uh who feels it um that kind of stuff uh thank you mayor and council member edberg good question I do not have that off the top of my head didn't expect it um but there you know I I think depending on where you're at it's quite evident obviously right in that area if you you know if you if you swing by a carbonis for example uh even even just during a week night I think they they feel the impact of uh all the activity that's going on there um it would be interesting to try and start to quantify uh foot traffic to begin with and then kind of build that that discussion out from there I it's not a mandatory part you have you add Mr Bates and the whole staff have lots of other things to do but that might be an interesting there there's an Roi conversation in there somewhere uh about we have paid to invest to maintain the facility we've had other partners Do It um are we getting what we thought we would are we getting more whatever and i' I'd welcome whatever thinking you can do over time and we can check in at some point in time thank you any other questions from the council all right Mr Juba thank you for the report item six public hearings we have nothing scheduled item seven unfinished business nothing scheduled item 8 a concept plan review for 2263 thir Street Mr lindel thank you mayor members of the council um the item before you tonight is a concept plan review and just by way of background um concept plan reviews um are really a discussion and feedback item they're designed uh for the applicant to to have the opportunity to go directly to um a neighborhood meeting the Planning Commission and the city council to get General feedback on their application or their proposal I should say um you know the as part of this process they like any other application they have meetings with staff to go over the zoning standards and how their project fits in or doesn't fit in with those standards and then um based on the anticipated um review process that could taste could T take place for the project um there are certain categories that are required to go through the concept plan review process in this case the anticipated next step in the review process for this proposal would be a plan unit development and so those applications are required to take this initial first step to have this um um concept plan review for comment and discussion um so the subject property is at 22633 Street um it's the emis church um they're proposing a 3,300 square foot addition to the property which uh really um basically doubles the size of the footprint of the existing Church um this would and it would include increasing the capacity uh to 300 seats um from around 200 right now um the analysis the the report that's on your desk goes through the typical review standards that would be um uh part of an actual application um gives you the information related to those and how it meets or doesn't meet the standards related to the zoning that it's in um but it doesn't include a recommendation again this is really just a discussion and feedback uh kind of application but that analysis does identify three areas where this application doesn't meet the city standards so the first is in the interior sidey yard setback or the the the with this property located in a quarter has one neighbor to its West and so that would be 20 feet in the applicant is uh the concept plan proposes 10 um the height of the church is listed on here but uh is conforming with that um the the second area that's um a challenge for this application um is the uh parking requirements um the applicant would be required to have 102 stalls based on the proposed um addition to and seating capacity of the addition to the main sanctuary and is proposing zero um as part of their application and then a lot coverage in this area because it is in the Shoreland area um would be limited to 30% and with the addition um they're up to 40.2% um and just again as a point of of of reference the in the history of the the the church um in 1986 uh the church was issued a conditional use permit uh for the for the property or for the districts that it's in and um went also at that point through a variance process to uh for parking reduction at that time as well so the neighborhood meeting uh took place in January 16th at the church um as part of neighborhood meetings these are hosted by the applicant staff attends to just provide um um process answer answers to any questions but really it's the it's the um applicants meeting to uh have a conversation with the neighbors approximately 15 people attended that meeting and concerns were raised about the parking potential noise and lighting issues impious surface coverage and just the overall intensification of the site um then uh this this concept plan went to the Planning Commission back on January 27th um the notification for that is it's not a public hearing so the city didn't send out notification but that invitation to the neighborhood meeting listed both the Planning Commission meeting and the City Council meetings and then those dates were reiterated to the people in attendance at the neighborhood meeting um we had five attendees at the Planning Commission meeting three uh were church members that also live in the in white bir Lake and uh stated their General support for the project um there were two uh uh attendees that were generally opposed to the project for similar issues that were related or brought up during the neighborhood meeting and they were uh neighbors uh to the church site um overall the Planning Commission um I would say had a general desire to support the church and the in the fact that it wants to invest in the community but did um have concerns that it may be just too much for the site that they're uh that they have to work with um the lack of parking raised a significant challenge um in in Impact to the surrounding neighborhood um and generally they recommended considering some redesigns that could could lessen the impact on the neighborhood um as I mentioned uh we look at the potential review process for a concept plan and that um outlines again the three-step discussion process the neighborhood meeting the Planning Commission discussion and then now reviewing consideration and comment from the city council tonight um in the future uh really the only path forward for this particular application would be to consider a plan unit development um the plan unit development again the council may remember um allows for flexibility under some of for some of the zoning standards in exchange that again the intention is that there'll be in exchange to get a higher quality development and the applicant is really uh uh it's really on the applicant to detail how they intend to provide that higher quality development so um kind of reaching to our typical last slide in the present ation which includes that would would include a staff recommendation again as a concept plan there we don't offer um uh um a particular recommendation at this stage we just really wanted to note um the um three issues raised initially here in the analysis relate to a reduction in setback a reduction in impervious or in increase in impervious surface coverage and then basically a waiver of the off Street parking standards and moving that um need for this site to accommodate into the public right of way and and the city's neighboring uh public uh uh uh surface lot so really the key questions for the council to consider as part of their discussion and tonight would be should the city consider the use of a PUD allow deviations from that side yard setback in perious surface um and or the stre parking requirements um and if you think a PUD could be used for those things um how should the applicant consider revising their application to um offer a higher quality development in exchange for that PUD or or is there something in particular the council would be looking for um just to note in your packet there's a few things that staff typically lists as part of an exchange for a PUD generalized categories um none of them fit very well with this particular application um the other thing is is that generally staff tries to discuss um things the applicant could offer that generally relate to the deviations and addressing those issues as they come along it's not always a perfect fit but it's a good place to start and again we um in conversations with the applicant um you know we were struggling a little bit as to find connections as to how they could address um parking for example so um with that i' uh take questions from the from the city council Mr lindall point of clarification your staff recommendations is take public comment are you saying at some point later on the process or tonight the the the intention generally for concept plans is that the council does take uh comment during the meeting okay um and I'm sorry I should have mentioned um the the uh we did receive one additional public comment I'm sorry I'm glad you mentioned this mayor um that was distributed on your uh seats tonight um that was from one additional neighbor just down the street at 20403 Street Bruce Shay um I'll let you know Mr Shay has about a page long of comments here I would summarize it to say um much like the Planning Commission I I think Mr Shay acknowledges uh um churches as a as an important Community use um and that generally he feels that they think they've been a good neighbor but he raises several concerns um about the intensification for the site and that they just may be at a point where they're uh beyond the capacity of the of they've reached the capacity of the activities the site can uh accommodate so uh again I'm sorry with that I take questions thank you okay well there was a gentleman that talked to me before the meeting and I said we weren't going to do public comment because I was not aware that we had done that in the past but uh we will do that so anyone who would like to speak to this issue is welcome to come forward at this time if you could please state your name and address for the record even if we know who you are that' be helpful uh name's Ed Cox I live at 2583 street so I'm directly across from the church um I'm a local builder in town so I do a lot of remodeling downtown so I'm kind of I wouldn't say I'm up on all the zoning but I I know a little bit about it and uh so I've lived there for eight years um my parents lived on Stewart and Lake Avenue since ' 87 I didn't grow up in that house but I hung out there a lot and the church has been there obviously forever and uh when it was running prior to the the current uh group having it um it's pretty low impact on the neighborhood you really didn't know what was going on you know there they had few Gatherings and a few cars parked and things like that with pretty pretty low impact on the neighborhood and then it went up for sale and uh these guys acquired it and uh pretty much kind of the same thing for a while and over the last year year and a half you can see that the more pressure on the neighborhood um me being directly across the street uh my Sundays are kind of designed around their activities me getting out of my driveway with my boat maybe me inviting people over nowhere to park for my um for my group um just the general activity and then it's been increasingly more in the evening you know we've been seeing more and more cars parked there for whatever whatever's going on I don't know but but you know there's an incredible amount of pressure as you guys know because you're studying it with the downtown area and the parking and and everything that uh um that happens and the spill over into the neighborhood um now I knew I moved downtown and I moved next to the you know next to the neighborhood um but it it's not been like this where it's like all every day you know and uh um um I look at this you know as a builder I look at this this is this even though it's a church and it's a and churches are important in the community for people um it's a commercial operation it has to acquire it has to meet this remodel will they'll have to meet all the Ada laws they'll have to meet all the lighting plans they'll have to deal with all their external HVAC all those different things all impact the neighborhood and they will be very impactful some of them um the fact that it's taking up uh twice as twice the amount of space on their property as they currently take up so it's going to be a you know relatively large building on a on a small residential area um it's getting to be to the point where they're it's a growing wonderful business and it needs to go find more space you know and uh um they're in the residential area 100% % so that you know and we've done a pretty good job of stopping the commercial and not allowing it to infect uh you know effect um affect the area downtown and uh and this this has now if you read Bruce's letter A lot of that um um Bruce and I neighbors and and I've talked to him a lot about this I've also talk to a CL a former client who lives on Fourth Street that couldn't make it tonight and uh and the Coopers and they're they're on board with uh uh Bruce's letter and and the things that he uh um put in that and uh my concern is is that if we add 300 more seats allowed them to build it they're getting rid of the minuscule amount of parking they have right now 12 14 cars or whatever it is so they're going to zero which whenever I for a commercial job or something like that parking's critical and we're battling you know P Parking in all kinds of communities not just White Bear and that you usually is the driver of what happens with the business so um uh you know we're going to if they never grow anymore that would be great but the church's main reason you know is to grow most churches I guess and uh um um what are we going to do when they come back in again and ask for some something more we we were kind of tapped out and there's a new new build and they're here and they'll probably speak but there's a new build going in there people are investing a substantial amount of money to the tax base of downtown I do that on a regular basis down there and uh um and to have this be towering over them next to them is really going to change what they're do doing to their house so it's so it's affecting a lot of people um all the way around it and some of them will speak but uh um so um I think we need to look at the rules that we have in place the zoning we have in place it's all there it's all important it's all the rules of staff and everybody put together and it's worked well for me all the zoning stuff and all the rules I follow them all the time and try not to come in for variance and and do that stuff and I think that's that's hats off to the staff for having a a decent amount of flexibility but this one seems to be over the top plus when they bought the place they were already under a conditional use permit and now we're going to stack another one on top of it and I think that starts to get a little redundant so um I appreciate you guys time thanks thank you good evening Scott bus live at 22553 street so my wife Stephanie and I just bought that house and moved in or took possession in August and we've been remodeling it so certainly the reputation of the church coming in has been that they were a good neighbor and that took that into calculus as we moved in and so happy to have them as a neighbor and um but the concerns with the proposed expansion and the proposed um concept that they've shared is you know the size of B and the location which referred to as the sidey yard setback so me being immediately West to it we would feel that so the current proposal there have a 10- foot setback instead of what should be 20 feet is what I understand I think is what code would would allow for so and also considering with the drawing they have it's it's a large flat wall potentially 30 35 ft high at its highest point you know right up immediately against my my yard line so that's a concern visually for Sight lines and and a change but along with the size of that in the proximity comes light pollution which today isn't really an issue noise from additional Mechanicals right it's a bigger structure it's going to require more air handling Etc um and then rainwater management because that size of that structure and it's shift over again to the West uh lot line towards me now there's a rainwater potential Rainwater issue or something that has to be mitigated that I don't want to have to you know encounter and deal with on on my side of the art so hopefully we can take those things into account um as you consider what's appropriate for um for this area and residential area and just a an additional note I appreciate the process that the city's put forth and the chance that the church had to share their concept publicly and go through these steps so thank you for hearing me thank you my name is Tom Boer representing 2263 Third Street uh I'm the senior pastor at that church and I do just want to thank you guys for the opportunity to talk uh when you have a chance to speak back really invite your bluntness toward us uh this process as Mr lindall explained is is to offer us some help we are open to to changing our our drawings and reconsidering what what what might work if you see a way forward for this uh I do want to address a few misconceptions or misrepresentations that have been shared at prior meetings or even already uh tonight just to help clarify a few things so the first comment is that this building if if if mapped out to what we've proposed and drawn it would become something like a an eyesore in the city or in the neighborhood it would be unseemly for the space this this if we expanded in such a way uh would put the building at about 7,000 ft which is larger than it is now but we would still be one of the smallest Church buildings in all of Whitebear Lake just to give that a little bit of context even walking around uh the lake Lake Street the neighborhood I mean there are single family homes that are bigger than this so it would not be a monstrosity by any means um a second misconception uh just somewhat unhelpful uh this showed up in Mr Shay's letter but it's shown up elsewhere is this comparison with us and Eaglebrook I I mean nothing against Eaglebrook but I just want to be very clear we are not Eaglebrook we have no intention of being Eaglebrook and even if we wanted to be it's unlikely we could there are so few churches that that see what they've seen um a more helpful comparison is a neighborhood church like St John of the Wilderness or just down the street First Presbyterian Church a neighborhood church that does good in the neighborhood has been around around relies on some street parking and yet have been good neighbors for a long time the the mental connection to Eaglebrook I think is something of fear-mongering you're going to have this massive massive Church in a neighborhood that's by no means our our plan or or stated goal so I want to be clear with that um also stated Mr Shay's letter and and elsewhere is is the issue of parking we we totally understand that this is a a big ask we're we are not foolish here we understand that we we are in need of approvals from from you all and yet at the same time to to make the assumption that this would be Market Fest 2.0 every Sunday is rather ludicrous the the drawing as is I think Ed misspoke uh and I think you know you misspoke uh not intentionally just accidentally that we would be adding about 70 seats to the sanctuary so not not 300 new seats would be bringing us to 300 total which would with the loss of the parking lot add approximately 40 to 45 more cars that would need street parking every Sunday um to my understanding there's about 1 1500 cars that come and park down here every Thursday for marketfest again we're talking about 45 cars additional to the street so four digits versus two digits the 45 cars I'm not I'm not pretending that small but within about a two block walking radius there's about 400 spots available including street parking and City Lots so there's there there are places for these cars to park the last misconception that I want to address I think this is the most important one um is the comparison that we are a business and that you all should be thinking about this proposal the same way you would be a Papa John's or a boutique shop coming downtown uh we are not a business uh in that same way uh last year I had three members of our church uh Express with me uh deep Suicidal Thoughts that are recurring I met with them regularly throughout the year I offered counseling that would have cost them tens of thousands of dollars if they went to uh private firm for counseling the church received from them 0 and0 uh similarly we had about two dozen folks that uh pastors of the church met with on a regular basis deal dealing with severe depression anxiety and addiction uh these meetings these counseling this care that took place I mean this would have been hundreds of thousands of dollars if done at a practice again the financial benefit to the church was0 do and0 cents uh we are not a business and I you guys have a hard job thank you for doing it um you have hard decisions to make you have to take into account so many different uh needs and and I'm understanding of that you have to think about taxable income you have to think about the budget you have to think about zoning and yet it is also your responsibility that the responsibility of the city to consider the needs of its citizens and I just encourage you as you consider this proposal um even at this stage of it consider the the needs of those who are suffering consider the emotional needs not just the economic needs of the people here uh again I I I'm understanding that this is a a big ask so we're very open to hearing your guys's thoughts and recommendations for how this plan might be able to to work for the city with with changes thank you guys thank you my name is Jay renle I live on 4740 Stewart Avenue right across the street on the east side of the church and like others have said we have gotten along well with the church we don't have any problem with them but um there are there are several issues with this that I'm concerned about and I think other neighbors that aren't here because they're skiing in Colorado or somewhere might have too but uh also I want to mention I do think this is a good idea for you to have these these hearings before things get rolling and then there's investment in drawings and everything that are detailed and um so I think that's good I was on the Planning Commission decades ago and so I understand how this all works um I guess one of the main points I wanted to make is that there are ordinances that are there and they're there for a reason um and I think the city should follow those and I'm disappointed when I see things where the City might be trying to that's why I'm glad we got to talk today before you discuss this consider a PUD why I don't know why the Pud thing comes up you know what's in the Shoreland District it's it's can only have a certain level of impervious surface and those things are set by they were by set by state law and they should be followed we're just watching all the Shoreland around the lake just get consumed in development and it's a little bit little bit little bit and so I think those things are important and I hope that you'll follow the code and we won't have to get into issues about that um it seems to me like this is a little bit like trying to fit a big round peg in a small square hole and you know it's not that big a lot and when you saw the picture of how much bigger it's going to be and go all the way over 10 ft to the new neighbors um it would create a wall for me looking out to the West you know the sunset will be a thing of the past the you know the wind other things all everything gets affected and we've had it going around on the East the West the east side of me there's a huge house there now and it just goes from one end to the other and I think we need to keep things small this is the old downtown or old White Bear Lake residential area and you know I just think that it's not appropriate there is a solution which some people might like and some might not but they have one service a week one how many churches have one service all they need to do if they want 300 people they have two services and don't have to spend all the money and ruin our views and affect our properties so those are my thoughts thank you thank you would anyone else like to speak to this issue um my name is Bon Somerville and I live next to Eddie and a CFT from you guys which nice to meet you and um I just want to say as a Christian I love the idea of a church there I think they've done a nice job making it very presentable they have a bench they have a little library thinger but I do agree with Jay that um have two Services if you need to expand your um the amount of the number of people that you want to attend your church and um I think I paid a ton of money to do the per impervious rigoll when we built our house it cost us well over $30,000 to do what you what the city wanted and so I believe that um that should be respected that people have um abided by the city and done paid money to make it proper and um as far as parking goes I think that um I if you have a church you have to have parking so and I know their parking lot is very small but it still covers 10 12 I don't know cars and that's 10 12 cars that don't have to be on our street during the service service or hopefully services so um that's just what I want to say because um I they've been good neighbors I have have to say they've been very lovely neighbors um one thing is the kids do run around a lot and I'm a little my neighbor one of my neighbors who's not here but they're concerned that the kids might run in the street when they're pulling out of their driveway or whatever but other than that they've been good neighbors but I don't think they have to have they could definitely do two services or whatever and and um since we did our part to make to do what was required by the city I think the church should have to do that as well even though I think they're good neighbors so anyway thank you please good evening everyone my name is Tom Hipkins I'm uh at 1875 Orchard Lane and I am the chair of the Elder council at Aus Church um so yeah as everyone has said very grateful for the opportunity to speak with you and and uh eager to hear any feedback that you're willing to offer couple of points of clarification that go to um maybe some unique elements of of the way we do things at Aus church and obvious we don't we don't need to get into the uh into too much detail but it it does bear on a few of the comments that have been made um we we when we um formed the church and when we gathered as a as a a group of Christians our it was our our stated goal at the time to to meet all together each week and to and when we when we meet together and we um and we worship together and we um partake in the in communion together we we do that as a a family meeting and a family meal and um it it yes it's a common thing to have multiple services but it's been really important to us and I think will will continue to be really important to us that we um we stick with one service and so that that's that's why multiple Services would would solve some problems but it would it would run contrary to the to the mission that we've that we've established um another is is related to that that that kind of goes to the the Eagle Brook point that that Tom made earlier um we we don't have a desire to continue to add more and more and more people to our body because that you get to a point and it's really difficult to know one another and it's really difficult for leaders leaders to know the people and really difficult for the people to know the leaders so we we wouldn't have any interest just as part of how how we do things of continuing to grow so this this would we we wouldn't anticipate uh a building expansion here and and another building expansion at at a later time to try to accommodate additional growth we we do have plans and thoughts on how if if people continue to come we're not going to say no you can't come but we do have plans to deal with that apart from adding a service and apart from um uh you know growing bigger in that building um and so another another point i' I I would be very interested um it seems to me like you know our I our building committee has done an excellent job in in pulling together and and working really collaborative collaboratively with the city we've been very thankful for the support um but I I think you know there we would be open as we've talked about to to changing the footprint of the building and and uh coming up with something that is is more workable to the extent that this one isn't um it it seems to me from all the conversations and you'll you'll correct me if I'm wrong but there would be a way to thread the needle on the the um the space the the the size of the building on the space of the lot there would be a way to um deal with with the with the requirements and and uh accommodate the some some of the neighbors concerns so this the the building on the space seems like there there might be some room at least from the way I'm reading things but the part parking thing it it'd be it'd be it it would be um helpful to us to get some feedback on on that parking question we we're we're at the early stages of of talking with our congregation and we need to the more guidance that we can get from you all so that we can take those next steps would be greatly appreciated so thank you for your time thank you would anyone else like to speak to this please hi thank you for letting me speak I'm Stephanie bus Scott is my husband we just purchased the house next door um so we haven't had a chance to live there yet but um I just wanted to clarify that a church doesn't have to be as large as an Eaglebrook Church to completely change how the space is experienced doubling the size of the building next door to us is going to change how we experience that house how we experien the neighborhood and it's not something we even knew about when we bought the house um I guess I would just ask you as you go forward to just consider 20 feet instead of 10 feet they want to come within 10 feet of the property line just consider what it would be like if you were living next door that's that's all I'm asking asking I really appreciate it thank you all right sorry about that I'm Bonnie's husband Craig I live at 2254 Third Street and I live next to these guys and live next to those guys um first of all the church has been a good neighbor I admit that and we are pleased to see him there my first reaction is the building is just flat out too big for the space I mean it just looks huge on that small footprint and again my wife pointed out that when we built our place 13 years ago we had to do a lot to get that to fit into the space didn't fit into the property line so I think everyone else should have to do the same thing mostly I think when we were told that we couldn't do something uh that we wanted to do was wasn't because we said we wouldn't do it in the future the uh City said well what if you sell the house what about those people who buy your house in the future what are they going to do so the church says yes we're not going to expand we're not going to be eagle grook and I respect that and I and I like the church but I don't know and 10 years they sell to somebody else what are they going to do so U we have to look at what they're going to do going down the road in the future and I'd like to see something that would be more appropriate to the scale of the property so that's my point Thank you thank you good evening um my name is Caleb Bergie I'm responsible for the plans so I thought it's just best to come up and and uh share my thoughts and and how we arrived at this uh this solution um you know we've been we we were meeting as a church um in the backyard of one of the elders uh houses uh when we first formed and uh we're tickled pink that a a building came available um back in 2020 and uh you know I I think everybody in the the congregation kind of fell in love with the the uh the the property the place uh the town um and uh you know you can hear you can you can hear the emotion in the neighbors voices um as they talk about it because I think it is a it's just a beautiful place um but as we started to understand that we were growing we've we we felt very constrained by the the existing building um you know it's a it's a two Lev there's a sanctuary and there's a basement and so you know we would meet and and you know have a a soup Sunday and and right after the church was over you know half of the the chairs were moved aside and tables were set up and there were people downstairs and people upstairs and there was really I mean nowhere to nowhere to go um and so we started to cast a vision of what what could this space look like um and what what in a in in an Ideal World what kind of space would we need to accommodate 300 people and so the plans you know when we started to put pen to paper um it seemed to make sense that you know based on the roof line and you know consistent with the you know trying to keep with the aesthetic of of the residential area that we could kind of match that and started to pencil out the the plan um it became very apparent though that there really is no expansion discussion without eliminating the parking lot I mean it it is a small residential site there are constraints inherent with that and so when mapping out all of the setbacks and the the constraints um we knew that parking was going to be a big ask and so you can kind of see our our on the screen our parking study uh of what it would take to accommodate 100 vehicles uh utilizing some of the city infrastructure uh as well as the as the on Street uh parking that we currently utilize um so without without eliminating the parking lot there really is no even discussion of of building in general um and so that that was kind of issue number one number two was impervious um and impervious ironically enough when we were studying that the the addition creates less impervious on the site by eliminating the parking lot just from the sheer size of the asphalt so I realize that there's a different way to treat that I mean it it is different different type of runoff than building runoff uh um parking lot runoff that is is is different than building but when we're talking about impervious surface what we're showing in as being rather aggressive in trying to meet our needs it actually decreases what is there currently in terms of impervious surface now it is still above the the the requirement um but I just wanted to note that it is a reduction in impervious um the the third point is the setback in the the sidey setback it that one kind of came out in the last in the 11th hour and we were talking it to Jason and Ashton and Shay um and really fruitful conversations and so I appreciate that um we we overlooked the 20 foot the doubling of the setback um that was required based on the conditional use of the site so in a traditional residential R4 uh we we were going under the impression that the 10-ft setback was the was our our constraint um I realized that the encroachment given the the the church use um but it is a little bit uh when when trying to analyze the you know a residential use versus the church use and and understanding how we we went about treating that facade it was very it was very intentional to keep all fenestration away from the neighbors's property so our our effort was really to align with the public facing streets and put majority of our Windows openings uh fronting those public ways and really trying to keep the the private aspect of the the uh the West facade uh and intentionally so now that does have the potential to create maybe more of a blank facade um and so I understand the concern the images that we've produced are are just that they're just rough images the these are in intense the these are our way of studying what the floor plan could be uh extrapolated three-dimensionally but this is by no means a final design and so I just wanted to be noted that this is this is really our attempt to understand the constraints understand the kind of the um the the problem uh uh facades and try to address them in articulate them in such a way that is appropriate and so um if that condition you know if the if the setback is the problem and it sounds like uh you know has been has been verbalized that that is not desirable you know we can go back to the drawing board uh it is I just want to noted it's rather difficult you know we're only working with a a small piece of property so it it is trying trying to accommodate um the the use and and trying to be I guess do it in a thoughtful way uh they're still going to there will still need to be some [Music] um uh the how do I articulate that there will still need to be some uh I guess Provisions or uh conditions that deviate from the the the zoning code um and that's why we you know we were intent on on seeking a PUD and trying to create a a level of of design a level of articulation that that could enhance the neighborhood so I just uh wanted to ex kind of convey th those thoughts and uh kind of tell you how we arrived at this solution so thank you thank you would anyone else like to speak to this issue all right well thank you everyone who who did offer your comments um Mr Boer uh first off congratulations if if if you're even entertaining a project like this it means your congregation's growing and you have the financial wherewithal to take on a project like this so um that's something to be proud of it's your success that is causing me the concern for what what this will ultimately be uh because it seems like the more successful it is the bigger these issues these legitimate concerns that folks are raising have um we're not making any official decisions tonight but you you invited our bluntness which I think is exactly what this process is supposed to do which is to have an early conversation before you have tens of thousands of dollars into due diligence and we're far enough along and then suddenly the neighbors go whoa you've been planning this for two years where' this come from so that's why we're having this conversation so I'm I'm going to try and offer my bluntness bluntness um and uh we'll engage in a dialogue I see two separate issues that on their own cause me a lot of concern and then individually maybe we'd find a solution but when you bring them together as you said it's a big ass um the building itself some of you have talked about how it's you're going to take it seriously it's going to look very nice it'll be a good finished product I have no doubt about that it's not that you'll do a good job and do right by the facade and what it looks like it's really really big on a very small property in what is a quaint neighborhood and I realize people have built larger houses recently but I haven't seen many 7,000 foot houses go up um the big ones are are like 4,500 so this is in and of itself a big big property uh big structure on a small property um and I think it will fundamentally change the characteristic of the neighborhood and some people might think that's a good thing and they want to see it expand I I don't I like quaint downtown white bear um that's what I grew up uh uh experiencing and that's what I want to preserve I also want to keep quaint churches in downtown White CU I see significant benefit to that too so I don't know how we try and try and marry those two um I I want to be blunt because I I don't want to give you false hope and say let's water down the project so much that you're basically putting a little bump out of a th000 square fet and that doesn't accomplish what your general congregational goals are so that in and of itself I have significant concerns about and even if we go back and forth and play with it and scale it down to 1500 square feet and we we we comply with the setbacks we're still left with the situation where your congregation appears to be growing and successful and that will cause more people to show up and like any good church rightfully so you're not going to turn people away um the church that I go to I would never want to see them say well we're at capacity this isn't a country club where we cap the membership we're going to keep as many people as we can coming and that's how it should be but that that's the problem um so parking I mean we've spent a lot of time talking with other projects whether they're business whatever it might be about parking because we take it seriously it's one of those things that you can't just gloss right past because it's the day and day day in and day out things that we have to deal with police have to deal with it neighbors have to deal with it um we have to enforce it so to go to literally zero parking and just say well it's the street or it's City parking lots that are already an issue and and and get use maybe not as much on Sunday mornings but um it still gets used so and that is a block away and it's just not realistic to think when we're having weather like this you just can tell your congregation just go park in the lot two blocks away so realistically I think it's going to just continue to to be an issue with parking there's no way to solve that you just don't have the space to say well we'll just put up a bigger lot over here there's no more room left um so I don't see how the continued trajectory of what your congregation and church are doing works for this space and I'm not trying to drive you out but it seems like it's a decision that you folks need to make um what are our long-term goals and is this this lot this location what's right for us um and I don't like having to tell anybody that when you want to put money and invest in the community and and do a good project but but the point of us having a zoning code and setbacks is to set the rules of the game and the puds have a role um particularly when it comes to housing um which is a great need but this is a little bit different so I can't imagine being wild about this project and ever supporting it for those reasons that I've just laid out um that's not to say that there isn't a solution somehow I'm I don't see it but I don't think this is it that's where that's where I stand today um based on everything I've heard so Council this is our opportunity to offer feedback um uh Jason could we could I ask you a couple questions about the um about the things that don't fit so we've been talking about the um impervious situation I had an impervious situation previous situation suck but um in a residential lot you can get an administrative variance is that what it's called the um up to 50% with trenching in my case um or rain Gardens I'm assuming this is not to the point where we've been talking about that at all this can you do that on Commercial Lots uh mayor members of the city council um it's just slightly a different process in this case it would ass what is assumed here is that the Pud [Music] would work with the applicant and their designes to maybe allow potentially allow additional coverage in exchange for something else uh which could be similar to what um residen um residential homeowners have done similar to your project where you would provide some additional storm water mitigation in some way and I there's a lot of different ways to do that um and that's where I think where we would try to work with the applicant and their designers and Consultants to come up with some s suggestions that could generally meet the spirit and intent of the storm water management issue um while allowing them some additional coverage so they could just trench the entire yard C capture all that water and then not have a have a sloughing a rainwater issue is basically what I'm thinking in my head well I'll just I'll be we haven't done that analysis but the but the general idea of what you're proposing I I would agree with that there would be additional rain guarders storm water mitigation um storm water ponding that maybe becomes more of a design feature on the site so when we talk about having a variance on this issue we're not saying you don't have to deal with it we're saying you're going to deal with it in these specific manners and this will be dealt with yes so we're not talking about just saying you were going to ignore it that would be staff's intention right okay um the 20 foot sidey yard setb I'm looking at the plans and um I am just not an architect um could they move the building bump out toward the street instead or are they right up against the um the steuart side setback uh mayor members of the council I believe they're also up against the setback on the street side the steward side um how however I I I think I would agree with what I think I've been hearing from the applicant is that there are they believe that there are ways they could redesign the site to less if not meet the setback requirement if that's important to the Council on the 20 foot side on the 20 for the neighbor and then they'd be left with a building that is what is the height of that wall on that side of the building for the neighbor I mean is that within code or is that extra is that extra mayor members of the council the building height meets the code requirements I'm sorry I don't know off the top of my head what that specific height on that side of the building is generally I think the measurement of the site uh if we go back here to the notes um allowed height is 35 ft which is a very standard height in the residential neighborhoods that the the measurement uh to the peak in this case it looks like is 32 feet um just as a note you may remember in your staff report um the Spire is higher than that existing not proposed to be changed and code allows those Spire architectural features to be hired so it's within the residential height requirement it doesn't have some kind of special requirement because it's quasi commercial mayor members of the council yes it is if a person was going to build a house there they could build it that tall mayor members of the council that's correct okay um okay and then we get to parking and I can't remember and I don't know that you were here how big how many people could go into Lakeshore theater and Lakeshore players that's a lot and they had no parking lot and they would meet Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday twice on Saturday twice on Sunday all the time um of course they weren't really close to downtown but um I'm not saying that that that I would say oh you don't have a parking problem because somebody else did the exact same thing um they were there forever but it did work I guess I would say I'm not EX ly sure what I would what I would say if a proposal came in that fit the 20 yard setback and had a lot of trees frankly it's just kind of obnoxious to look at a 32- foot wall but you know again my neighbors probably got one you know it's but um I'm trying to think if they do I don't know if they do though um but parking is going to be an issue and I don't can we put in the Pud you have to have busing is that that something you can do is that something the city can do so mayor members of the city council and I you know um the City attorney can also chime in at any point here generally the Pud is designed to be um a good faith effort on both part to come up with a better development there's something in the code that is just is a sticking point and um to get a higher quality better development for the community you can do things a little bit differently um you know certain certainly um different ways of bringing people to the site I think is generally your point here that could be one of the conditions that could be part of the exchange in theory um the only reason I mentioned the other ones is because you guys could design a plan that was 35 ft High met the setback and um and worked through the um uh storm water mitigation issues and we would really not be able to say anything about it one way or the other um and so the bigger issue is again this parking um I guess I would encourage you we can't I mean I don't know what anybody else would say I don't know how this would go forward but it sure would be a good great you know a good faith effort going forward if you did want to consider busting that you started it before the project to show that that was something you were willing to do if it's something you'd be willing to do I don't know or that whatever you are planning to do to mitigate that that you start it before the project but again that doesn't mean that some body wouldn't that anybody or me wouldn't say still not still not enough but um at least that would be one part of the conversation I would have and again I would just encourage you as you go forward with us the plan to make it look as I like trees but um as residential as possible um because you know they're going to be looking at it for a really long time but that's my that's my initial feedback Council any other thoughts on this council member Walsh thank you Mr Mayor well a couple of positives um I really like hearing that that the church is a good neighbor and the neighbors sort of keep saying that over and over that's just really a good a good um a good vibe and that's that's a credit to the neighborhood and the church I think this is was said repeatedly I also love all the comments about this new process I think it's still a relatively new process we're doing with with this planned review uh so that that's that's uh sort of kudos to staff and Jason in particular for shepherding that through we're really hitting our groove I think with this process where we start early and and and there's just it's a drawing and we're getting some really initial feedback and I think it's working so couple of couple of positives um so it was addressed in the memo or maybe it was addressed in the applicant's letter that um you wiper lake is is fully developed and there's just no other place to go but have we really spent more time on that that's my first thought is like it's a great use for the city um this lot is small the parking's an issue have we really explored other spots in the city that that this church could move to you know I know that's asking a lot to say move but it's a it's a high value lot in a great neighborhood they obviously have some money to expand so between selling a lot maybe it's not completely unreasonable and just I just wonder if we have have looked at properties that we control as a city um other other there's there's lots of open space and other churches there's lots of open space in the school district just thinking outside the box early in the process have we really considered that and I just want to encourage that kind of activity because I think it's a great use um and I don't want him to leave you know I don't want I don't want him to fail um but this is this is a difficult uh application obviously so I don't know if you have any Mr Lindell has any comments on that or if it's even our job necessarily but I think it could be our job to at least help with the search or look at an inventory mayor members of the council um we haven't discussed specific specifically the city the property that the city owns but we'd you know be happy to have that the the applicant really hasn't expressed a desire to consider other sites at this point but certainly we'd be happy to have that conversation for to the extent that the city owns any property that may be a good fit for them um but beyond that really we haven't staff at least hasn't um um worked on behalf of the applicant in the private sector to to help them find a site yeah and I don't know that it's necessarily our job but it could be something we could do um you you your your team knows more about the property management and what's going on in the city than anybody in the city um so maybe we spend some time on that not a lot of time because you guys are busy but that was just one of my overriding thoughts is well how do we do this well maybe if this isn't the spite the S the site but keep them in wiper Lake some other way so that's just my initial reaction uh I I the parking is a really big issue to go you know from a from already way over variance to zero uh when I was reading the memo think oh wow okay so we're going to put a lot of cars in the neighborhood um you know the map that we had up earlier with the yellow spots for cars is is is is compelling you know you got our our city lot just a block away full of cars and certainly on Sundays at least that's not that's not going to be a difficult thing to do there's not going to be anybody else there uh in that spot I I would say in the busing I thought of busing too or you know a golf cart or things like that but we have some experience with that in other properties in the city on you know in my neighborhood on the Boat Works over there with the tall it didn't really work it just didn't they tried it didn't really work we had a lot and we were going to bust everybody over but there just wasn't compliance if especially if there's just spots on the street to park people are just going to do that they're not going to go to the lot and get a a ride from the golf cart or the bus so you know good idea so I mean those are my my initial thoughts um like I said this is this is really early and those are ini thoughts any other thoughts from the council council member edberg thank you Mr Mayor so I think there are worse problems for communities than to have than growing congregations and community- based Ministries um I applaud you for the work that your community is doing the way that your uh congregation is working and acting that's a tribute and good things are happening whether this is the right place I don't know um I'm going to push back on Mr Cox's comment about it being a commercial building I don't view it that way at all it this is not Commerce doesn't have any of those same attributes in that regard got so the issues that do concern me 20 foot setback um I'm open to hearing about Parking Solutions I'm I'm not confident that there are any um but um I'm open to listening to what that might look like um again I think Mr uh member Walsh is is accurate in in the other experience that we had in trying to uh use that to alleviate parking issues was um not successful uh so don't know what to do with that um the um I would be curious Mr lindall um so roll this forward if the congregation were to say as a as opposed to framing it as what can we do with our ministry in this place what can our ministry do in a well resourced different place okay and as Mr Walter mentions it's property that has some value what are the conditions on somebody else so I'm thinking of the other neighbors it's like you don't get to necessarily control what somebody else is going to do so long as they meet uh code your side uh sidey yards and height and so forth in this situation because of the previous cups and other things what um what might be possible that would be within our code and could go on that lot as a successor can you speak in any kind of generalities about what that might look like mayor council member edberg I just want to make sure I understand your question um are are you asking in the context of assuming the site is as it is now or assuming the site was so if somebody and live in the neighborhood tear down the building and put up something really new and big for whatever that site might bear what might that look like so um mayor members of the council um really under the current zoning in the residential category that's allowed here four it would yes it would be entitled to a single family or two family use okay um under our current code they could seek a conditional use permit to add an accessory dwelling unit um they quite honestly the the most intense thing really in the res in the residential Zone that they're in would be a a conditional use for um uh a religious institution like they have um and then that's subject to the standards that we've kind of outlined in the staff report and discussed here a little bit tonight I guess my only point is that to think about this as a single turn of the screw when in fact there's going to be more coming down the road if the congregation should move it's like you have other issues to think about as well and compare which you might like better uh but be cleare eyed about what might be able to be built there that you also might not like just that's kind of the way some of the development happens and that's okay in general I'm going to say I think it's really hard to see this development on that site but I remain open to listening and thinking but nothing easy has coming to my mind congratulate you on the work that you were doing and thank you for the work in our community make com please but step up to the podium if you would yeah thank you all this is this is incredibly helpful and what we're aiming for uh can I just address a few of the comments you guys have made uh member Walsh we have we've spent about two years looking at other uh places in the area uh we love white bear we don't want to leave white bear uh We've we're very invested in white bear um both the businesses and the people so I I've reached out to a handful of different churches that are seeing maybe attendant going the opposite direction of us to see if potentially they'd be interested in trading um it'd make a lot of sense for some Churches to have uh uh less overhead and less building to care for but as of right now um there's there's no interest in that um we've had our eye at other creative opportunities actually uh member Joe Ericson um real part of the building commission uh we were working with her as about two years ago so she can attest to that and I love the idea of considering if there's other things that we we are unable to see we would be grateful for that um I think the we were actually we're renting the Armory before there was a a shift in things which would have been a wonderful home but uh yes um thank you also for pointing out member Hughes the the use of the uh the theater down the street that's that's about two blocks away from where we are um you've got the theater down the street you have another block away um I'm spacing on the uh what's the Event Center down this just downtown there about yes um understand that that's in downtown zoning again it's it's a block away um in terms of parking so there's and then and then St John of the Wilderness isn't a similar situation to us of they don't have their own parking they just happen to be connected to to the city lot that's connected to the library so um they're they're in a unique spot um St Mary's I I know has a fairly large parking lot but to my understanding they're expanding um well parking on the street and it's it's neat we're we're glad that that's there it sounds like you guys are all aware I don't have to I don't have to pitch it to you to drive around the streets on a Sunday afternoon they're delightfully quiet um and I I I think there's there's clearly space there and at the same time I understand the tension you all are feeling um so thank you for for the thoughts um member edberg I do want to just address to your point someone could buy this space if we were to sell it and build a very large house a very large multif family uh unit um could build a um daycare facility that is used 5 to 7 days a week and they would have different um lesser obstacles potentially than we would in doing that so I I appreciate you pointing that out we're even with this going trying to maintain one service we're attempting to do a community good instead of being and taking up this space from 9:00 a.m. to 2 P.M every Sunday um having that that volume be much shorter is is part of our goal here thank you all thank you okay anyone else have any final comments on that couple people haven't spoke I want to make sure okay all right we're going to move on to item 8B uh police Sergeant labor agreement Mr Juba thank you mayor and council members uh staff and the uh staff and law enforcement labor Services who represents the police Sergeant have reached an agreement on a 2-year labor contract covering 2025 and 26 highlights of that agreement include uh changes for wages the 3% cost of living adjustment in 2025 on January 1 uh then also a step increase on January 1 for all four members and then regular staff or regular step increases then uh on their anniversary dates uh for the rest of 2025 uh and then 2026 would be another 3% cost of living adjustment on 1126 and then just regular step increases uh on their anniversary dates um and then other highlights include uh same health insurance contribution uh that we've done for for other groups for 20125 if you recall that's the city picking up 90% of the health health insurance premium increase for 2025 and then adding an additional $100 into uh the HSA contributions um holiday hours increasing from 96 to 112 uh this was also included in the patrol contract that was approved at your last meeting and it's also consistent with the uh non-bargaining staff at the city increase in uniform allowance from $950 to ,000 that'll stand for both years of the contract and then uh renewing the hiring and referral incentive which is uh was also included uh at in the uh the officer's contract which was approved at the last meeting so that staff recommends approv approval of the 2-year contract with ls for our police sergeants uh just a note if Council were to approve that tonight that will be our last open contract for 2025 thank you Mr Juba I don't have any questions congratulations on reaching an agreement and we'll see what the council would like to do council member Walsh uh thank you Mr Mayor uh I'm going to support the resolution and the approval of the of the contract a question on holiday hours and this was in the last one too and I didn't ask it and so now I've seen it twice so I get another chance to ask it holiday hours increased from 96 to 112 So is is my math right 112 hours of holidays 14 holidays and so is a city recognizing 14 holidays and I know we're not City staff is not taking 14 holidays off all year because we wouldn't even I don't think we'd be able to function so is it kind of a bank the holiday hours use them as PTO or how's that all work am I is my math right there um uh thank you uh mayor and council members council member Walsh uh so this there's there's kind of a mix there so for the the patrol staff and for the the sergeants those officers are banked they um because the because of their schedules and how they work um they they get that bank and then they use those um throughout the year on their own schedule that's my my comment is that's a lot of holiday hours I mean that's that's I would I would I would say that's more than the private sector and so this is one of these I is where we're we the we're doing better here than we do in the private sector I don't I don't have certainly don't have 14 holidays paid holidays that's that's two weeks you know um before you even get to vacation or any other kind of PTO so but like I said I'm going to support the the contract I'm glad we're all done with the the contracts but that's a that's a lot of holiday others any other thoughts from the council or I would entertain a motion to approve the labor agreement second I have a motion second any further discussion on this seeing none all those in favor say I I any opposed motion carries that CBA is approved thank you again Mr Juba all right item nine discussion wiper Lake Area North Campus neighborhood parking Mr Copy more parking uh thank you mayor members of the council uh Chief Hager and I are here tonight to give Council update on our review of the uh ongoing parking around the uh uh North Camp expansion area um interesting uh in talking with the school district through the uh um getting this item on the agenda uh they are now trying to Market or at least make sure that we're calling it The Whitebear area high school so um just that was came out here in the last couple days with taking with District staff so we will try our best to or I will try my best to uh keep it to that uh may make some reference to North Campus just cuz we're all um familiar with it so um so what we want to do tonight is uh kind of go over our observations as we reviewed the area uh after school started um some draft recommendations and next steps that uh we would recommend taking so if you recall during the approval processes in 2021 and 2023 for the uh Expansion Project itself as well as the uh um uh Stadium expansion um traffic studies and parking studies were reviewed um in general um the uh parking requirement or the parking provided on site uh met or exceeded requirements um within city code and the only parking true parking recommendation that came out of either of those studies was to uh recommended restricting parking on the east side of balagal Avenue adjacent to the school uh more so to help with some of the drop off pickup um issues that we had seen in the past so um uh if you recall uh staff had uh recommended during those approval process or re review processes that we wait until campus is fully occupied and we see how things actually operate including events um so that we can make a true recommendation on what we need for any further parking restrictions what kind of issues that we see out in the neighborhoods uh similar uh to what had been done at South Campus uh in the past so just wanted to be consistent and make sure that we were kind of reviewing it holistically versus just taking one recommendation off of a parking study that's um Based on data but uh still more theoretical so really starting in the fall of 2024 when school started and actually I think it was one event prior to one football there was one football game I believe that was prior to school opening um that uh engineering staff as well as police staff monitored uh have monitored around the campus the neighborhoods uh police staffed the uh events and uh looked at how things had operated um I'll go through some of what engineering had had seen and then I'll turn it over to Chief Hager and he'll kind of summarize more of the uh what they saw from a neighborhood parking as well as the event parking so engineering uh tried to look at different times of the day different days of the week uh to really uh drive around and look at the uh um how parking was handled uh both on site in the parking provided as well as if there was any overflow into the neighborhoods and really uh we looked at mornings afternoons uh evenings as we were out and about doing our daily activities uh really tried to document we had a map and we documented what we saw different vehicles that we saw consistently um and really the only issue that we really saw was 10th Street immediately west of Bal eal Avenue so we consider is saw uh five to 15 cars that consistently parked along that roadway we've got we got a few calls from those residents uh in that immediate area of you know just inability to get out of their driveways uh people would park pretty close to them and uh um um that was kind of the school day so and then um as staff were here on the weekends and and chief ha girl expanding us a little more but um things got a little bit worse during you know weekend uh tournaments events things like that and then obviously the football games were a whole different uh um type of event uh where it was uh a very large you know the new uh Stadium seats up to 5,000 people um a lot of people few different things that went on weather related whatnot that didn't allow us to see full full um uh filling of the uh Stadium but still I think got the general gist of what had happened so I'll turn it over Chief Hager and you can kind of give your summary of what you'd seen out there thank you Mr Mayor members of the council um yeah we you know we noticed uh pockets of problems we would uh field um complaints from citizens now and again um not as much as we had anticipated I think uh before uh this school year started um most uh of those were just kind of growing pains just um I'm not used to somebody parking in front of my house and now there's somebody parking in front of my house and it might just be one car uh we didn't notice uh any real concentrated um levels of parking except for like was mentioned on 10th Street and again couple handfuls of cars but um it was clear that they were just there you know probably students um during the the day uh as far as the events go I attended the football games this fall and um just like just like the problems the school um the small problems with parking at the school they increasingly got worse with each game and which with each week of school um the first few games of football you know just maybe weren't that well attended um and um but when it came down to the to the last couple um there was there was quite a quite a potential for a problem in that neighborhood just to the West off of uh garden and tenth and Campbell in that area um we definitely saw I drove around a lot that night uh the last football game of the year and um you know Garden was pretty packed in both sides um all the way you know to the west from uh from bald eagle that could have potentially been a could have been a problem for us um and tenth was pretty busy and it kind of wrapped into the neighborhood a little bit as far the you got into the neighborhood obviously the less um more sporadic the cars became but um that area uh could could use some work for this upcoming year I also am cognizant of the fact that um you know here we are in the middle of the school year and there'll just be more and more cars as the school year goes on because all of our sophomores will start getting their driver's license and whatnot so we'll get more and more cars um as we go on but those are those are the problems that we solve from the police department side all right thank you Chief haer um so next up I want to run through uh few things of what we currently have out there today um so if you look at the map here I'm kind of in the immediate area um uh on the east border of uh the uh White Bear Lake area or White Bear Lake Area High School is Division Avenue Division Avenue is currently no parked on both sides um basically along the entire length of of Campus works very well um um we don't see too many issues over there um we do have uh restrictions on 12th Street um those restrictions were U more timed restrictions with uh pick up and drop off with the old uh configuration of Campus um if you recall that is one street that we are looking or that we are working on with the 2025 Street Rehabilitation project um so once we finalize a design and bring back to council we'll look at what that um but anticipate uh some type of parking or adding that parking back in um potentially to align more with what we'll propose um um as I get into that but um and then we also have no parking on North side of 9th Street and then we do have the west side of Central Avenue on the south side of Campus that is also no parked so that's currently out there um and we didn't see any issues as that as we uh drove around looking at the uh parking with the new campus configuration um so really going on with what uh Chief Hager and I had noticed and our staff had noticed out there is um Garden Lane I'll hit that first uh we really need to do something out there that was uh reconstructed in 2019 uh but due to RightWay constraints just how the area was platted and developed um uh the roadway ended up very narrow it's 24 ft wide curbing gutter um it worked okay when it was a sleepy little end of the uh uh basically the north side of town not really a whole lot of uh traffic around it uh worked okay there was a few people that parked on the streets uh now that uh campus is very close to it uh especially during events um not only during the bigger um uh football games and The Stadium events but the weekend tournaments things like that were a lot of that traffic is congregated on the bald eagle side um have a tendency to have more and more parking that has migrated into that neighborhood um in addition uh based on the review and looking at operations during some of the bigger events as well as those uh weekend tournaments things like that um Bal eagal um initially some of the traffic studies uh recommended just no parking the east side more so for uh traffic enter and exit the campus uh try to prevent some of the stacking for pickup and drop off um but as we review further reviewed it um we would recommend that the west side of Bal eag will also be no parked or have those parking restrictions put in place uh reason being is it really uh pushes a lot of uh parking on that side and you have people exiting uh Vehicles just running across uh at random along that entire length uh creating uh potential hazards with motorists coming down ball legal um and not seeing uh people exiting between cars to try to cross the street um as we all know it's uh people have a tendency not to and especially with the no sidewalk on the was side uh people aren't going to be walking down to the nearest intersection AC cross just to go back they're going to cross wherever they Park so that um kind of brought to light that could be an issue if we only uh no Park the east side so uh that would be a recommendation for those two in addition um similar that we have at South Campus uh we would recommend or at least entertain looking at permit parking in some of the adjacent neighborhoods uh to the uh uh high school so looking at those areas there um that's what we would initially look at um we think it gets out far enough into the neighborhoods where you know the uh people will kind of stop it's getting too far to walk they're going to be forced to park back into the uh parking lots so if you really look at uh North or the north campus or the uh Whitebear Lake Area High School um there's over twice as much parking provided on site than the existing South Campus um so that being said there's over 1300 stalls a lot of what Like Chief Hager had mentioned is people just figuring out where parking is uh best ways to get in and out it's a still a new area um and even during some of those bigger events people were parking in the neighborhood just cuz they thought it was closer than you know maybe going driving over to the division to park in some of those parking lots over there so it's just really um education and getting people to park um where they need to uh we did meet with the school district before any of the games did start and uh they try to get out messages to visiting teams their own parents things like that to to let folks know where to park um which I think helped but uh still we need more time to um really educate people to and maybe with some of the restrictions force them to park in the parking lots sometimes people say I can park right across the street I can get out quicker than me getting stuck in a parking lot so a lot of it is just um training them to park where there's parking available so um that is something that we would again recommend that we entertain looking at um a parking program I'm not aware I from what I've heard is the the permit parking Works relatively well at South Campus has over the years Al Chief heger comment if he's got any additional yeah no thank you uh Mr Mayor members of the council the permit parking which will go will take away now because we don't have a problem in the south campus anymore but um that seemed to work really well of course I wasn't around for the implementation of it but uh since for the last uh decade or so it's um it's alleviated any um parkings in neighborhoods like that um just further comment on on some of the uh as implementation of these U one as I'll mention is balal Avenue North of Sixth Street or north of 9th Street is under County jurisdiction we've had initial conversations with the county and they uh happy to entertain um the city's recommendations uh based on Council um uh support uh to no Park uh legal along their jurisdiction south of KN street is City jurisdiction so we would have the right to do that um uh as far as the permit parking goes as Chief hagard mentioned we would um the count or the uh district has asked us as well as to remove those uh permit parking area at South Campus is are no longer needed um it is within city ordinance so we would uh need to do an ordinance revision to do that uh staff would also look at with the city attorney to look at um easier ways to uh make changes to that um as we move forward to um uh make sure that if we do need to make adjustments in the future um may or may not need ordinance revisions uh but we will work with the city attorney to try to make that as seamless as possible to to react um as we may need to make changes once it's uh initially implemented I did have uh conversations with the school district that are generally supportive of of our recommendations and our findings and have uh had similar concerns so um they are on board with what uh we have proposed um with the exception of calling it Whitebear Lake Area High School I'm just trying to repeat that so we all remember to to say it um um as far as uh next steps go um similar to what we had done um early last year when we looked at the ward two parking is we really feel it beneficial to reach out to the neighborhood um kind of go to the next slide here but we looked at took a look at the uh um area around the campus and um kind of that broad area that might be affected by uh the parking U for events as well as um the uh General operations of the campus and we recommend sending a letter uh soliciting uh public comment um that so staff can further review that so that we can either confirm or possibly refine our recommendations before we bring it back to council for um consideration so I guess our ask tonight is that we would look for Council direction to uh direct staff to send that correspondence out I'll review the data and then bring that back uh for further consideration at a future date happy to answer any questions so question regarding the the permit parking how does that relate to the residents that live right there is it bracketed hours of the day provide some color on that uh it's uh very detailed within the ordinance um the and chief Hager is probably more versed at the uh issuance of those permits and enforcement but yeah Mr Mayor members of the council yeah U the permits are free to Residents there and um they're allowed to park on the city streets and um that's that's about it it's it's not that challenging to do but if you you have to be a resident to have a permit uh to park on those streets uh mayor members of the council one thing I will add add to that is currently uh South Campus have uh restrictions that are generally follow the school year and school day uh we may have to look at uh different timing of uh Perma parking in this area uh just due to the volume of bigger events weekend events um that uh um like we said we don't see the school day parking being a huge issue other than 10th Street but it really falls into um more so opposite of South Campus that um it it's really the weekend and event parking that causes the issues in this neighborhood so uh we may look at different restrictions it might be you know 247 365 days a year that those restrictions are in place uh like Chief Hager said the residents at free of charge would be issued uh those parking passes for for their personel or guest Vehicles okay well for purposes of tonight General feedback is yeah I want to hear from all the people that have to live and deal with this um if for no other reason maybe we're missing something this this strikes me as because this is all brand new the super high school on the North side um kids are going to find ways around so it's it's going to be a little bit of whack-a-mole I would imagine for a period time um but the best people that are going to give us the Intel are not that the city staff hasn't done a good job but you're not there every day um so I'm all for that um and i' want to invite the public to weigh in good better otherwise and let us know if you've got problems that'll help help Define where we want to put this so council member edberg thank you Mr Mayor Mr CI um so I like the idea of permit parking free permit parking available for residents because the biggest impact of the external impact is on residents would um I'd be particularly curious to see if the folks who live on ball legal might also desire to if the people on Bald Eagle might also prefer to have access to permit parking um for their guests and others who are coming to visit I know it there might be some issues about so how do you tell on a Friday night who's a who's got a permit and who's not um but inconveniencing all of the homeowners on both sides of that street um deserves some some thought um the 12th Street Garden Lane Etc uh that makes perfect sense to me so I would support soliciting that input but as I say I would be listening for uh uh what do residents on Bald Eagle have to say council member Hughes um you know there's that little tennis court there by the or the little parking lot there by the tennis court does the school own that or is the county or who how does that work like will they strip that will that be no Park what is going to happen with those five precious spots may members of the council um that is actually parking that just kind of um appeared over time within County RightWay so that's um kind of just occurred um we've allowed it uh it's not um it's within the RightWay um it's not inside no parking so it's allowed um I'm sure you know through uh use of the uh the old tennis courts it just kind of uh became under these restrictions that would be removed whether it be um you know again it's uh especially during events people it's it's 90° parking or even if you went par or uh angle parking whatever it's still dangerous for people to back out in the traffic out on Bal eagal Avenue so uh under this proposal we would um remove that parking or work with the county to have that parking remove solder grass that area kind of restore it so that would be the proposal of the uh our recommendations I don't know if it's worth worth making that clear but I think you might want to because it is it is we it is used a lot on the weekend um and is there anything we can do on the intersections there 6th and 9th um to really call out pedestrians walking I mean especially at sixth I can't tell you how many times I've driven by there and watched a kid run Dart or stop and wait and not have someone stop and stop for them in the intersection it's and that's you know I mean it's after school kids walking home from school but ninth especially is terrible but both of them are really terrible so I don't know can we like black out there or white out the attire I don't know I just I I would love to see something there that would actually cause people to think that they're they kids walking across that intersection uh mayor members of the council uh we are so aside from parking we're looking or continue to look at other pedestrian or vehicle improvements that might be made in the area uh the focus tonight was to really look at the parking but we are on a side note looking at some of those um 9th Street we will have to work with Ramsey County to to look at some of that uh also started some of those discussions as well um again south on 6th Street we'll take a look at that as well um as far as uh again calling out above and beyond ordinary um I actually just at a conference here uh over the winter and uh there's some uh pretty tight restrictions on what you can do within um intersections and marking on payments outside of what um some of the uh current uh regulations are um there's some movement to that that the state is looking at so um not that we can do anything today like you said paint a whole intersection but uh there is some movement in uh the desire to do that so it's growing a little bit of of legs um in the um design world so um in the future that might be an option but for now we'll look at what is currently available uh to us I think not having parking on both sides of that street will definitely help see people M the sideline can I add on to council member Hughes your your comments Mr Copy I should have asked you this when we were when I was reviewing the packet so I apologize but could a could stop signs be considered at 9th for that exact reason I know I think it's all painted crosswalks on all ways I think there um but I just I take this every day ninth and I see people flying through and so could that be a way to slow them down going north and south South Direction you already have one on 9th but would that help yeah mayor members of the council obviously uh so um just to make it clear to everybody ball legal as well as N Street at that is uh under County jurisdiction so uh something that we can definitely bring up to the county um uh to see if they would entertain it typically you look at um um traffic standards typically T intersections are not three-way or all way stopped this not that there's acceptance to every rule but um I will uh definitely have conversations with the County's uh traffic engineer and see what their thoughts are on potentially doing that any other feedback from the council okay well sounds like we're we want to hear from the residents and we're generally receptive to staff's recommendations that are the experts on all things parking and traffic and all that so thank you all right item 10 communication from the city manager Miss Crawford do you have anything I do just a couple of things tonight um it is winter it's freezing out um but some reminders during a snowstorm we kind of post this um throughout the year on our social media but um please help Public Works and not park on the streets um it it creates for a better opportunity for us to plow better which then when it refreezes doesn't create a bunch of mck in the streets um the police department um is very happy to write tickets I actually received a couple text messages from some residents saying thank you for giving my kid a ticket really thank you so they are out there and and they will enforce our our ordinance um so just a reminder on those things um as we are in the middle of winter now um secondly the uh our body warn camera program was audited recently um we're required to have that audited every two years um I did send the council uh notice on this but just thought I would mention it that we did pass our body warn camera audit um and no issues or concerns and and the staff who are in charge of of our body War camera program at the police department did a phenomenal job so thank you to all of them and and to Chief Hager for that um and then lastly the city council um and department heads have a work session next Tuesday um which we will we will do an annual check-in on our strategic plan and see if we're heading in the right direction on that um as well as talk about um some Street projects so that's what I have for tonight thank you thank you m Crawford any questions for the city manager Jared member Walsh we have some business to attend to no uh good try second [Laughter] tell you what I'm going to run the meeting now so everybody sit quiet item 11 closed session uh for those in the audience this is the rare time where we continue to do business but outside of the earshot of the public for certain things so with that I would entertain a motion to go into close session to evaluate the performance of the city manager as permitted by Minnesota statute section 13 d05 subdivision 3A so moved thank you I have a motion to Second any further discussion on that seeing none all those in favor say I any opposed all right we're entering into Clos session to a of this meeting will not be video recorded e